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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to another episode of The Oath in the Office

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<v Speaker 1>podcast starring Professor Corey Bretschneider. I am his obedient henchman,

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<v Speaker 1>John Feugelsang, and it's a pleasure to have you with

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<v Speaker 1>us today on the show. A fascinating conversation with filmmaker

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew Glazer, and folks, for one brief shining moment. This week,

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<v Speaker 1>the Constitution briefly cleared its throat and reminded all of

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<v Speaker 1>us it is still technically employed. A federal judge looked

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<v Speaker 1>at the Trump DOJ's treatment of Kilmar Abrego Garcia and

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<v Speaker 1>basically said, you idiots can't deport a guy my mistake

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<v Speaker 1>and then lie about it in court and then reopen

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<v Speaker 1>a dead case to punish the guy for noticing. And

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<v Speaker 1>while all this is happening, courts are still wrestling with

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<v Speaker 1>whether non citizens possessed the radical socialist luxury known as

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<v Speaker 1>free speech, which used to be one of America's bigger

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<v Speaker 1>selling points. Folks, please welcome the star of our show,

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<v Speaker 1>so constitutional law professor and author of The Oath and

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<v Speaker 1>the Office, Professor Corey Breschneider.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, sir, Thanks so much, John, And that's such a

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<v Speaker 2>great frame I mean, we're talking every week about the

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<v Speaker 2>ongoing struggle between the attempt to protect our rights, to

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<v Speaker 2>protect our democracy and the assault on those rights by

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<v Speaker 2>the Trump administration. We'll talk about what's happening here in

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<v Speaker 2>the United States, and we have a special treat too

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<v Speaker 2>in that Andrew Glazer is going to talk about his

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<v Speaker 2>film about the drug war and about America's complicity and

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<v Speaker 2>the violation of human rights abroad, particularly in Mexico. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's an amazing episode both about our rights at home

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<v Speaker 2>and our abuses abroad. And of course those two things

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<v Speaker 2>are tied together through the office that we're focused on

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<v Speaker 2>in this podcast, the office of the President of the

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<v Speaker 2>United States. There's extreme deference paid to the president when

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<v Speaker 2>he or she is acting abroad, and that's why you

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<v Speaker 2>often see the kind of human rights abuses, especially tied

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<v Speaker 2>to the war power or tied to the war on

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<v Speaker 2>drugs and this. But unfortunately, you know, those abuses abroad

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<v Speaker 2>are not just limited outside our borders. And so we'll

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<v Speaker 2>talk about the assaults too on not just free speech,

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<v Speaker 2>but as our first story will make clear, on due

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<v Speaker 2>process itself.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about it because we actually have a few

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<v Speaker 1>tiny signs of life from due process this week, and

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<v Speaker 1>from judicial independence, and from the old fashioned idea that

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<v Speaker 1>rights aren't supposed to depend on whether the president's having

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<v Speaker 1>a cranky day. Kill mar Abrego Garcia. We talked about

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<v Speaker 1>him a lot last year. The judiciary is calling out

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<v Speaker 1>these bogus charges after the Trump DOJ stopped claiming they

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<v Speaker 1>could just evade due process. Our listeners will remember, this

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<v Speaker 1>guy's twenty nine years old from Maryland. He's a citizen

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<v Speaker 1>of bel Salvador, and the US government mistakenly deported him

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<v Speaker 1>there and lied about it. So, I mean, Corey, Judge

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<v Speaker 1>Crenshaw found the prosecution of Garcia for human trafficking was tainted, vindictive, selective,

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<v Speaker 1>and in violation of the Fifth Amendment's due process clause.

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<v Speaker 1>Professor how rare is that language coming from a federal judge.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, it was starting to get real pushback, you know.

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<v Speaker 2>The just to kind of back up a bit and

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<v Speaker 2>remind listeners, because, as you said, we have been this

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<v Speaker 2>is one of those stories that we've been covering and

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<v Speaker 2>it's so important. The administration is claiming that under the

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<v Speaker 2>Alien Enemies Act, this was what they originally claimed that

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<v Speaker 2>they didn't even have to present their case in court

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<v Speaker 2>that it was really beyond the law and that he

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<v Speaker 2>could be deported to a gulag in El Salvador and

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<v Speaker 2>was sent there even though there had been court orders

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<v Speaker 2>saying do.

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<v Speaker 3>Not send this guy, that he was in danger for.

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<v Speaker 2>His life if you send him to El Salvador. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, over time there was pushback by courts, thankfully,

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<v Speaker 2>that said, you know, we have a right of everyone,

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<v Speaker 2>of all people to do process and the administration can't

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<v Speaker 2>just scrap that and treat people however they want.

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<v Speaker 3>So what did they do.

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<v Speaker 2>They backed up and tried to say, well, he's involved

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<v Speaker 2>in human trafficking and to bring a case to use

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<v Speaker 2>the courts. And you know, anybody with common sense see

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<v Speaker 2>that what was going on was that they were, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>having failed to deny the constitutional rights that are afforded everyone,

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<v Speaker 2>the rights of due process that having been stopped there,

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<v Speaker 2>that they were just trying to make something up and

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<v Speaker 2>to use a normal legal process. But you know, in

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<v Speaker 2>the service of something that was just a lie. And

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<v Speaker 2>now they're being called out for that. You can't just

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<v Speaker 2>make something up, and in particular, I mean just to

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<v Speaker 2>get into the nitty gritty please, you know, they had

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<v Speaker 2>a sort of sham case against him for human trafficking.

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<v Speaker 2>He had been pulled over, for instance, in the car

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<v Speaker 2>that had a lot of people, that's not evidence of

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<v Speaker 2>human trafficking, and had decided not to move forward on

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<v Speaker 2>those grounds.

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<v Speaker 3>That's why they had to deny due process.

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<v Speaker 2>So now that they've been blocked off from simply denying

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<v Speaker 2>his rights, well they're raising this case again, and it

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<v Speaker 2>looks like the courts are saying, I don't think so,

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<v Speaker 2>we know what you're up to. This is a kind

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<v Speaker 2>of selective prosecution. You're sort of manipulating the facts to

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<v Speaker 2>meet your goal of seeing this guy in prison. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>get down to brass taxstration is embarrassed and they're trying

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<v Speaker 2>to cover this up with a.

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<v Speaker 1>Lot exactly exactly so, so I mean, I also want

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<v Speaker 1>to get to just be honest here. I think the

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<v Speaker 1>bar is so low at this point. Corey in twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty six that the government may not retaliate against you

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<v Speaker 1>for asserting your constitutional rights now counts as uplifting good news.

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<v Speaker 1>You realize that, like we're accelerating us as great news

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<v Speaker 1>that the government can't punish you for asserting your rights.

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<v Speaker 1>But the court pretty much found that the government reopened

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<v Speaker 1>this closed case only after Abrego Garcia successfully challenged his

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<v Speaker 1>illegal deportation. So I guess my question is constitutionally, how

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<v Speaker 1>dangerous is it if the White House appears to just

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<v Speaker 1>punish people for asserting their legal rights.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, the whole thing is so frightening, the

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<v Speaker 2>idea that you're using this seventeen ninety eight law to

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<v Speaker 2>deny somebody the rights of due process, a law that

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<v Speaker 2>dates back to John Adams assault on democracy, and you're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing it again here. Now that to begin with is

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<v Speaker 2>way out there. There was pushback against that by Judge

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<v Speaker 2>Bosberg and others saying, you know, I don't think so

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<v Speaker 2>that the lower courts here, you know, and part of

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<v Speaker 2>this episode will be a celebration of the lower courts

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<v Speaker 2>pushing back, saying, you know, you need to charge him

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<v Speaker 2>with a crime. You need to show even if he's

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<v Speaker 2>not guilty of a crime, you know, you can't just

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<v Speaker 2>deny him any.

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<v Speaker 3>Legal process exactly. So what do they do?

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<v Speaker 2>They try to come up with this alternative lie, And yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>my worry is that, you know, there really is a

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<v Speaker 2>question about how much of the rule of law, if any,

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<v Speaker 2>is left that that might have worked in some world

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<v Speaker 2>that the courts might have, you know, said, well, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>now at least you're pretending to.

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<v Speaker 3>Abide by the rule of law.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it is a real victory that they're

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<v Speaker 2>you know, calling this out and saying, I don't think

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<v Speaker 2>so this isn't this isn't legitimate. It's a make believe

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<v Speaker 2>way of trying to avoid the fact that you're embarrassed.

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<v Speaker 2>You said something too that I just want to pull

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<v Speaker 2>forward for listeners. What the court is calling out is

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<v Speaker 2>what's happening here, which is that the administration is embarrassed

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<v Speaker 2>because he asserted his rights, as you said, and now

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<v Speaker 2>what are they trying to do? Deny his rights with

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<v Speaker 2>a lie? And it looks like that's not working.

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<v Speaker 3>So that is you know, I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Want to say democracy saved. You know, we made it,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's one of these many instances, and this is

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<v Speaker 2>such an important case because it's really a test case

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<v Speaker 2>for the wholesale denial of rights. And so as he's

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<v Speaker 2>starting to win here, you know, I wouldn't say I'm

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<v Speaker 2>feeling amazing about American democracy, but I'm feeling good.

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<v Speaker 1>About I mean, we still live a bit of time

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<v Speaker 1>when the government can deport somebody in error, and then

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<v Speaker 1>if you challenge that error publicly, they will aggressively prosecute you.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, the judge did say that there's an absence

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<v Speaker 1>of evidence of actual vindictiveness the government failed to rebut

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<v Speaker 1>the presumption of vindictiveness. And I had never heard that

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<v Speaker 1>expression before, but wow, presumption of vindictiveness sums up my

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<v Speaker 1>entire feelings towards this administration at this point, professor, I

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<v Speaker 1>do want to ask you about Mahmoud Khalil, because this was,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean great, this guy we talked about a ton

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<v Speaker 1>on our showan born pro Palestinian activist. He was a

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<v Speaker 1>student at Columbia University at an expectant father. He just

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<v Speaker 1>appealed to the Supreme Court after a federal appeals court

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<v Speaker 1>opened the door for the government to detain and deport him,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Court of Appeals also sided with the federal government,

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<v Speaker 1>determining that immigration court was the best place for him

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<v Speaker 1>to argue his case rather than federal court, and he

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<v Speaker 1>appealed that. So, I mean, his attorneys are saying, essentially,

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<v Speaker 1>tell me if I'm following this, professor, that the government

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<v Speaker 1>is claiming non citizens don't have meaningful First Amendment of protections. Right,

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<v Speaker 1>that's what this is. I mean, has the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>recognized free speech protection for non citizens who are here legally.

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<v Speaker 1>I kind of thought you taught me a while back

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<v Speaker 1>that this is about what governments can't do to you,

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<v Speaker 1>not what you can't do.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean the same way.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll just tie the two cases together, and they're both

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<v Speaker 2>cases that we've talked extensively about, and that's why we'll

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<v Speaker 2>continue to update people on what's happening. There really are

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<v Speaker 2>test cases for the strength of our democracy. In the

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<v Speaker 2>first case, in the Bregio Garcia case, the question is

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<v Speaker 2>whether or not, using this obscure eighteenth century statute, the

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<v Speaker 2>government can just take away your doe process rights altogether.

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<v Speaker 2>And there was pushback, and you know, we're rightly I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know about celebrating, but certainly giving kudos to the

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<v Speaker 2>courts for pushing back on the administration here. Now here's

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<v Speaker 2>another story, you know, and it's why this push and

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<v Speaker 2>pull is going on. A district court judge did heroically say,

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<v Speaker 2>look just what you said, John, that the First Amendment

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<v Speaker 2>applies here, not just to citizens. It's not what the

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<v Speaker 2>text says. It talks about Congress shall make no law

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<v Speaker 2>abridging the freedom of speech, and that isn't a limit

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<v Speaker 2>on the protection just of the rights of citizens. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a limit on government, regardless of who is being attacked.

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<v Speaker 2>And so you know, that was a good moment. Now

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<v Speaker 2>you know, these cases are subject to appeal. The government

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<v Speaker 2>this time fought back, and so far it looks like

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<v Speaker 2>they're winning.

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<v Speaker 3>Now how are they winning.

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<v Speaker 2>They're saying that this judge really wasn't the right place,

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<v Speaker 2>the district court judge in New Jersey wasn't the right venue,

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<v Speaker 2>the right place to consider this question at this time,

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<v Speaker 2>and instead we've got to wait until the matter gets

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<v Speaker 2>worked through immigration courts.

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<v Speaker 3>Let me just break this down a little.

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<v Speaker 1>Least, because this is this is really, this is shady, right,

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<v Speaker 1>this is really.

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<v Speaker 2>Say, immigration courts are you know, guests who controls the

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<v Speaker 2>immigration courts? They are not that I hesitate to even

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<v Speaker 2>call them courts because we think of a court as

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<v Speaker 2>a judge. Immigration judges are within the executive branch. Who

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<v Speaker 2>is the executive branch controlled by the within the Department

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<v Speaker 2>of Justice. There's the Department of Justice controlled by we

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<v Speaker 2>know that's Donald Trump. So what unfortunately has happened here

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<v Speaker 2>is that a court of appeals, not within the administration,

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<v Speaker 2>within the court court system. The Article three court system

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<v Speaker 2>has pushed this back, at least for now, into the

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<v Speaker 2>hands of the administration. And you know, good luck getting

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<v Speaker 2>your rights of indicated with this administration. It's not the

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<v Speaker 2>end of the story. Eventually we might get to the

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<v Speaker 2>Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 3>And that's what Khalil's lawyers are saying.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know the question you asked is eventually,

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<v Speaker 2>I think going to be answered by the Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 2>Does the First Amendment apply only to citizens or is

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<v Speaker 2>it a limit on government? As plain as day, I

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<v Speaker 2>think it says it's just a limit on government. But

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<v Speaker 2>you know, once you get to that level, for all

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<v Speaker 2>the heroism of the lower courts, including the district court

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<v Speaker 2>judge here, this Supreme Court, well, you know, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>do fantastically when it comes to the production.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh really, when it comes to human rights and individual liberties,

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<v Speaker 1>this particular Supreme Court. So Corey, let me just get

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<v Speaker 1>this right because I want to get off of this

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<v Speaker 1>topic because it hurts my brain. But they're both arguing

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<v Speaker 1>that the government of the United States under the Constitution

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<v Speaker 1>can crush free speech if you're not a citizen. But

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<v Speaker 1>it seems like they're also saying that immigration law can

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<v Speaker 1>override the Constitution.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I'm getting this right.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, my brain is brain small here, but is that?

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<v Speaker 1>Is that roughly right?

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<v Speaker 3>For now?

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<v Speaker 2>That's you know, we're we're tracing these cases, We're following

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<v Speaker 2>them closely. And one of the great things about this

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<v Speaker 2>podcast is that we can go in depth, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>on these specific cases that really are again test cases

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<v Speaker 2>for democracies. So right, so, right now, where things stand,

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<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court of the United States hasn't definitively said

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<v Speaker 2>no to the administration. This district Court judge did try

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<v Speaker 2>to say no, But the administration is saying, if you're

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<v Speaker 2>not a citizen, no free speech rights.

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<v Speaker 3>It's that simple.

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<v Speaker 2>And they're claiming essentially that his protest activity, and of

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<v Speaker 2>course they're lying about things that he said. They're accusing

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<v Speaker 2>him of anti Semitism. I have been looking. I have

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<v Speaker 2>not seen any evidence of Khalil's anti Semitism.

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<v Speaker 1>But the bottom publicly antisemitism at no place in his movement.

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<v Speaker 1>He said it more than once. Mark Rubio lied about

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<v Speaker 1>this guy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this administration cannot be trusted. Really on anything. And

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<v Speaker 2>you know, but here's what they're saying in open court

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<v Speaker 2>that if you're not a citizen, no free speech rights,

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<v Speaker 2>and we have the right if we don't like we

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<v Speaker 2>think that his views, essentially, his opinions, his speech is

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<v Speaker 2>adverse to the public policy interests of this administration, that

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<v Speaker 2>we can throw him out of the country, even though

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<v Speaker 2>he's a permanent resident and you know, has been living here.

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<v Speaker 2>He was a leader of the protest movement in Colombia

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<v Speaker 2>negotiating with the administration. They're saying, we don't like your views,

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<v Speaker 2>you're out of here. Now, what's the state status of

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<v Speaker 2>the law? You know, I've said very strongly what I

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<v Speaker 2>think the law says. But so far the judge who's

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<v Speaker 2>agreed with me in this matter, has his opinion is

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<v Speaker 2>for now been pushed aside. This has been thrown back

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<v Speaker 2>into quote unquote immigration courts, which are really within the

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<v Speaker 2>executive branch, and they haven't said definitively that's it. He's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be thrown out of the country. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>possibility that that could happen, that he's going to be deported.

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<v Speaker 2>And really what we're going to wait, I think for

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<v Speaker 2>is in the final analysis for the Supreme Court to

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<v Speaker 2>get involved, and that that's where the appeals going now.

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<v Speaker 3>From Khalil and his lawyers.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, they're to have to answer that question

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<v Speaker 2>once and for all, because you know, it's not that

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<v Speaker 2>the Supreme Court doesn't have the power to review this.

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<v Speaker 2>They can, and I think there's a good chance they will,

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<v Speaker 2>and they've got to answer that question. Is the administration

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<v Speaker 2>right when they say non citizens have no free speech rights?

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<v Speaker 2>You know on the law. No, but you know, we've

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<v Speaker 2>got to be honest. This court can do all sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of things.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Corey, before the break, we also, as we are

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<v Speaker 1>all sitting here in shock from what has happened to

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<v Speaker 1>the Voting Rights Act, and it seems to have just

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<v Speaker 1>been reduced to a I don't know what a coaster

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<v Speaker 1>for billionaires. Democracy actually punched back a couple of times

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<v Speaker 1>this week. We just saw a federal court telling Alabama

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<v Speaker 1>their congressional map was totally racially discriminatory and illegal. And

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<v Speaker 1>then South Carolina Republicans, I think, just realized, wait a second,

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<v Speaker 1>we already controlled the state. Why are we trying so hard?

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<v Speaker 1>And they shocked the world by choosing not to pass

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<v Speaker 1>the new map designed to vaporize the state's lone majority

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<v Speaker 1>black district that was Jim Cliburn seat. They were going

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<v Speaker 1>to just get rid of his entire district, and to

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<v Speaker 1>their credit, they realized, wow, even we don't need to

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<v Speaker 1>be that dickish.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I don't know in the end, if

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<v Speaker 2>this goes to the Supreme Court what they'll say. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to take away from what they did in

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<v Speaker 2>this Louisiana case.

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<v Speaker 3>They really did avis rate the Voting Rights Act.

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<v Speaker 2>They made it very hard to show that the attempt

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<v Speaker 2>to resist the dilution of black voting power through districts

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<v Speaker 2>in which there are a majority of minority voters. It

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<v Speaker 2>largely eliminated the ability to do that. Now, they left

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<v Speaker 2>a way open, which is that if you could show

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<v Speaker 2>that what you know, what you're doing is resisting intentional discrimination,

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<v Speaker 2>then okay. And it seems like in this Alabama case

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<v Speaker 2>that the lower court here, this isn't the Supreme Court yet,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, but the Court is said, yeah, that there

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<v Speaker 2>is intentional discrimination. So you know, they're trying to work

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<v Speaker 2>within the very narrow limits that the Supreme Court is set.

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<v Speaker 2>In the end, what's going to happen you know, it's

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<v Speaker 2>anybody's guest, but you know it took a theme or

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<v Speaker 2>that we're working, which is that you know there is

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<v Speaker 2>a give and take, there is a pushback. The Supreme

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<v Speaker 2>Court often disappoints us, sometimes they don't. But into the

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<v Speaker 2>void is stepped intermediate courts and district courts and courts

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<v Speaker 2>of appeals.

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<v Speaker 1>But the Supreme Court didn't go out and say you

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<v Speaker 1>can discriminate. They said, just don't discriminate by don't gerrymander

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<v Speaker 1>by race, do it by ideology. Feel the free to

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<v Speaker 1>cheat as much as you want that way. And yet

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<v Speaker 1>a lower court is now saying, well, you did cheat then,

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<v Speaker 1>because the Supreme Court never gave you license to discriminate.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean, that's a great way to put it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll say it again, just to clarify, the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 2>didn't get rid of the nineteen sixty five Voting Rights Act.

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<v Speaker 2>It preserved it, but in a particular way and said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, if you want to invoke the nineteen sixty

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<v Speaker 2>five Voting Rights Act, if you want to show that

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<v Speaker 2>people are being denied the right to vote based on race,

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<v Speaker 2>it has to be intentional discrimination that we're talking about.

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<v Speaker 3>So that doesn't you know, that's not nothing. It's very

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<v Speaker 3>hard to show.

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<v Speaker 2>But when you have actions as blatant as what's happening

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<v Speaker 2>in so many of these states, actions of intentional discrimination,

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<v Speaker 2>courts can call it out. They can say, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're not blind, and you can call it, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>party partisan jerrymandering, say this isn't about race.

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<v Speaker 3>All you want that you're colorblind.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're really engaged in discrimination, we can identify and

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<v Speaker 2>call it out.

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<v Speaker 3>And the Supreme Court did leave that open. And so

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I don't want.

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<v Speaker 2>To get too rosy about this. With the Voting Rights

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<v Speaker 2>case Louisiana case, the Supreme Court really did avis errate

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<v Speaker 2>the Voting Rights Tact, but they left a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe that's a little bit something to work with,

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<v Speaker 2>especially in the face of well, let's call it, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>maga's overt and disgusting form of intentional discrimination.

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<v Speaker 1>Folks, the guardrails of democracy are hanging on by duct

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<v Speaker 1>tape and caffeine launay. They wave, all right, we got

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<v Speaker 1>to know it's something. Yes, it could be worse at

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<v Speaker 1>it just might well be. We got to take a

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<v Speaker 1>quick break back in just a moment, and let's talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the fact that Congress suddenly remembered they have power

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<v Speaker 1>over war. This is the Oath in the Office. Welcome

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<v Speaker 1>back to the Oath in the Office. I'm John Fugel,

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<v Speaker 1>Sang Professor Britch Nighter. I am very excited to welcome

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<v Speaker 1>Andrew Glazer in the next act, the director of the

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<v Speaker 1>very powerful drug war documentary Spring of the Vanishing. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>equally excited to tell the folks that you are such

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<v Speaker 1>a professional. Because I had to fly today. Corey Bretschneider

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<v Speaker 1>is joining us to record live from Italy. At what

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<v Speaker 1>time is it there? It's three in the morning, right,

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<v Speaker 1>it's three am?

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<v Speaker 3>No, No, not that bad little past midnight.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 3>You know I'm not going to miss this show.

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<v Speaker 2>John. Talking to you every week gives me hope, gives

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<v Speaker 2>the lessoner's hope, and I'm happy to do this show

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<v Speaker 2>at midnight or anytime.

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<v Speaker 3>Really.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, Hey, if you enjoy doing this show with me,

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<v Speaker 1>then my work as a charming sociopath is complete. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I want to talk about I think this is good news.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know anymore. What is but after twenty years

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<v Speaker 1>of Congress treating the Constitution like the terms and conditions

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<v Speaker 1>over the iPhone update that they're never going to read.

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<v Speaker 1>The Senate seems to have finally remembered they technically have

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<v Speaker 1>authority over war.

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<v Speaker 4>Corey.

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<v Speaker 1>Democrats have unsuccessfully been reintroducing all these measures since the

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<v Speaker 1>assault on Iran began in the end of February, and

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<v Speaker 1>the Senate, in a vote of fifty to forty seven,

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<v Speaker 1>has now taken up a measure that could end the

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<v Speaker 1>war in Iran. That would be the same war where

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<v Speaker 1>we keep bombing them during cease fires. A few Republican

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<v Speaker 1>senators have now joined Democrats to try to stop the escalation,

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<v Speaker 1>including Senator Bill Cassidy, who apparently Corey discovered separation of

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<v Speaker 1>powers the moment he discovered that voters separated him from

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<v Speaker 1>his job. I mean, it is amazing how this constitutional

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<v Speaker 1>courage shows up once the donors can't primary anymore, isn't.

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<v Speaker 4>It, Corey.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's like, you know, you're not running for reelection anymore,

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<v Speaker 2>and the decency just starts popping it out. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think when you have a president, if you've been part

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<v Speaker 2>of Congress and you're watching a president just walk all

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<v Speaker 2>over your powers, really declare war. And just to return

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<v Speaker 2>to the theme, for listeners. The Congress has the power

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<v Speaker 2>to declare war according to the Constitution. It says it

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<v Speaker 2>in Article one, which creates the Congress gives it its power.

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<v Speaker 2>The president under Article two is commander in chief, but

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<v Speaker 2>that doesn't include the power to initiate a war. And

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<v Speaker 2>in fact, the British King had the ability under the

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<v Speaker 2>unwritten British Constitution, as they talk about it, to both

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<v Speaker 2>initiate and carry out wars. And the Framers looked at

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<v Speaker 2>that and they're like, that is way too powerful. We're

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<v Speaker 2>going to divide these powers up, give the initiation power

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<v Speaker 2>to Congress and give the power to carry out war

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<v Speaker 2>to the president once Congress has acted. Now, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>presidents for a long time, of course ignored that. But

422
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:51.640
<v Speaker 2>in the nineteen seventies and the early nineteen seventies, at

423
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.920
<v Speaker 2>the end of Richard Nixon's presidency, as he was getting

424
00:20:54.920 --> 00:20:56.279
<v Speaker 2>close to step down.

425
00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:58.640
<v Speaker 3>The Congress start to reassert that power.

426
00:20:58.440 --> 00:21:02.440
<v Speaker 2>Realize that the bombing of Camp, the incursions that were illegal,

427
00:21:02.559 --> 00:21:05.359
<v Speaker 2>and arguably the whole war. There's an argument, of course

428
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:07.720
<v Speaker 2>about the Gulf of Tompkin, but arguably the whole war

429
00:21:08.119 --> 00:21:10.799
<v Speaker 2>that was really an example of what Arthur's Lessener called

430
00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:14.400
<v Speaker 2>the imperial presidency using basically the power of the president

431
00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.319
<v Speaker 2>as a kind of dictator, initiating war, carrying it out,

432
00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:20.680
<v Speaker 2>violating civil liberties abroad, violating them at home.

433
00:21:20.759 --> 00:21:22.640
<v Speaker 3>That's really the theme of today's show.

434
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:25.039
<v Speaker 2>We're going to talk about with Andrew Glazer, the violation

435
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.400
<v Speaker 2>of civil liberties abroad with the encouragement of the American government.

436
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:32.519
<v Speaker 2>But you know, the war power is really the core

437
00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:34.960
<v Speaker 2>of all this. So to see at least a discussion

438
00:21:35.359 --> 00:21:38.160
<v Speaker 2>and a recognition of members of the president's own party

439
00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:40.920
<v Speaker 2>that this is dangerous, that this is how you walk

440
00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:43.559
<v Speaker 2>right into dictatorship. It's not the end of the story,

441
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:45.799
<v Speaker 2>but it's at least something. And you know, I'm glad

442
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:49.119
<v Speaker 2>that the Democrats keep pushing back on this idea that

443
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.880
<v Speaker 2>this war is somehow legally it's not.

444
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.720
<v Speaker 1>No Somewhere the founders are screaming from their crypts. We

445
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:57.240
<v Speaker 1>wrote this down very clearly.

446
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:01.319
<v Speaker 3>This is one of the facility is clear.

447
00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:05.079
<v Speaker 1>It's astonishing. But I guess I have to ask, then,

448
00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:11.880
<v Speaker 1>since they're getting away with this, what constitutional mechanisms still exists, Professor,

449
00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:18.200
<v Speaker 1>to stop a very determined president doing military escalation. If

450
00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.200
<v Speaker 1>the executive branch really wants it. What guardrails do we

451
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:22.799
<v Speaker 1>still have.

452
00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:27.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, we have this law in place, the War Powers Act,

453
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.160
<v Speaker 2>and it's pretty clear that the President of the United States,

454
00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:32.720
<v Speaker 2>if he wants to engage in a legal war, has

455
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:36.079
<v Speaker 2>to within thirty or at most sixty days, then can

456
00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.960
<v Speaker 2>get an extension, go to Congress and say declare war. Now,

457
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.640
<v Speaker 2>they can do it in a variety of ways through resolution.

458
00:22:42.759 --> 00:22:46.599
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't have to be necessarily a formal declaration. But

459
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.119
<v Speaker 2>nothing like that has occurred here. There's been no debate,

460
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:52.559
<v Speaker 2>and so what members of Congress are doing is saying,

461
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.759
<v Speaker 2>you know, pull it back. There's another provision of the

462
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:58.559
<v Speaker 2>War Powers Act that talks about the ability of a

463
00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:02.599
<v Speaker 2>vote to just simply legally demand the return of any

464
00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:07.160
<v Speaker 2>forces outside of the theater of war. And you know,

465
00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:09.119
<v Speaker 2>that's what they're doing here. I think that they would

466
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.000
<v Speaker 2>have the ability, even if they have declared war to

467
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.640
<v Speaker 2>pull back. That's a complicated issue, but to me, the

468
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:18.400
<v Speaker 2>straightforward thing that they're saying is very clearly, we did

469
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.519
<v Speaker 2>not declare war, and there is no authority in the

470
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.759
<v Speaker 2>first place to go out and carry out this war.

471
00:23:25.319 --> 00:23:28.640
<v Speaker 2>And you know, they're not at fifty one votes yet.

472
00:23:28.680 --> 00:23:32.079
<v Speaker 2>In the Senate, but hopefully they will be. You know, realistically,

473
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:34.400
<v Speaker 2>we're going to talk about the next Congress. I think

474
00:23:34.440 --> 00:23:36.319
<v Speaker 2>that should be the first vote that we see in

475
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:39.079
<v Speaker 2>the next Congress is a vote to make it very

476
00:23:39.119 --> 00:23:42.200
<v Speaker 2>clear that there's been no authorization of war, and yeah,

477
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.200
<v Speaker 2>that the president has to cease all operations. Of course,

478
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:47.279
<v Speaker 2>he's going to make all sorts of arguments, including the

479
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:50.480
<v Speaker 2>fact that there's a ceasefire now so the sixty days

480
00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:53.680
<v Speaker 2>doesn't matter, and well, courts get involved now. But a

481
00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:56.079
<v Speaker 2>first step to reigning in a president is that Congress

482
00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:57.240
<v Speaker 2>starts to assert itself.

483
00:23:57.319 --> 00:23:59.079
<v Speaker 1>Okay, but let me asky. I know it's almost one

484
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:00.799
<v Speaker 1>in the morning in Italy and getting ready to go

485
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:03.000
<v Speaker 1>out now, but I got to ask you. I mean,

486
00:24:03.799 --> 00:24:07.799
<v Speaker 1>this makes me think of this curse on America. Ever

487
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.759
<v Speaker 1>since Bush Senior had a really quick, easy war to

488
00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:15.319
<v Speaker 1>restore the dictator of Kuwait, right a thirty five years ago,

489
00:24:15.640 --> 00:24:19.319
<v Speaker 1>we had Operation Desert Storm, and ever since then, except

490
00:24:19.319 --> 00:24:23.440
<v Speaker 1>for the two major conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, it

491
00:24:23.519 --> 00:24:27.279
<v Speaker 1>seems like we've had so much low level warfare from

492
00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:32.559
<v Speaker 1>democratic and Republican presidents alike that it sort of normalized

493
00:24:33.119 --> 00:24:36.880
<v Speaker 1>this whole emergency executive power in the American psyche. I mean,

494
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:40.720
<v Speaker 1>we're just really used to presidents having their little wars

495
00:24:40.720 --> 00:24:42.640
<v Speaker 1>that don't have tons of ground troops.

496
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:43.279
<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

497
00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.559
<v Speaker 2>One thing you know that we've talked a lot about

498
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:48.599
<v Speaker 2>on this podcast with Sheldon Whitehouse with Ted lu is

499
00:24:48.880 --> 00:24:52.799
<v Speaker 2>what once the Democratic Party retakes the Congress, how do

500
00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.319
<v Speaker 2>you rain things back in? And one thing that I'm

501
00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:58.920
<v Speaker 2>just insistent on, We've had a couple of moments like

502
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:00.000
<v Speaker 2>this the quarter presidents.

503
00:25:00.079 --> 00:25:03.680
<v Speaker 3>He was one of them where presidents really acknowledged that.

504
00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:06.839
<v Speaker 2>The power of the executive branch had gotten out of control,

505
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:09.119
<v Speaker 2>that it had to be rained in. And it really

506
00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:12.119
<v Speaker 2>is both parties I think that have contributed to this

507
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:13.400
<v Speaker 2>imperial presidency.

508
00:25:13.880 --> 00:25:14.920
<v Speaker 3>And that isn't just a.

509
00:25:14.839 --> 00:25:20.039
<v Speaker 2>Matter of illegal action abroad, illegal war, but the civil

510
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:23.200
<v Speaker 2>liberties abuses that can come from him. And so you know,

511
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.680
<v Speaker 2>I think we've got to look at both parties, look

512
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:28.640
<v Speaker 2>at what presidents of both parties have done, and start

513
00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:31.799
<v Speaker 2>to acknowledge that, you know, there's something wrong with the

514
00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:35.319
<v Speaker 2>setup that enables at least beyond our borders.

515
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:38.960
<v Speaker 5>We haven't legally ever, hear she wants, we haven't legally

516
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:42.599
<v Speaker 5>declared war in eighty five years, correct, I believe it

517
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:44.799
<v Speaker 5>was December eighth, nineteen forty one, was the last time

518
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:46.759
<v Speaker 5>this country legally declared war?

519
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:47.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

520
00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Again, I mean, I think you could probably argue that

521
00:25:50.480 --> 00:25:54.480
<v Speaker 2>authorizations of force themselves don't have to formally be declarations

522
00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:54.880
<v Speaker 2>of war.

523
00:25:55.319 --> 00:25:57.160
<v Speaker 3>But we don't have anything like that here. We don't

524
00:25:57.160 --> 00:25:57.680
<v Speaker 3>even I'm just.

525
00:25:59.000 --> 00:26:01.079
<v Speaker 1>You keep talking about it. Yeah, yeah, tells us Congress

526
00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:01.799
<v Speaker 1>to Claire's war.

527
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:02.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I guess.

528
00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:05.480
<v Speaker 2>You know, ideally we'd return to a moment in which

529
00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:07.480
<v Speaker 2>there was a formal declaration of war or not.

530
00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:08.519
<v Speaker 3>And that's the idea.

531
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:11.920
<v Speaker 2>There are exceptions, you know, you could have defensive actions,

532
00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:14.839
<v Speaker 2>for instance, that presidents engage in. And there's a famous

533
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:18.359
<v Speaker 2>case involving Lincoln where there was an accusation that the

534
00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:21.839
<v Speaker 2>Union's involvement in the Civil War itself was illegal, and

535
00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:24.400
<v Speaker 2>Lincoln said, look, this is a defensive war.

536
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.000
<v Speaker 3>It wasn't denying that it was a war, and the

537
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:28.839
<v Speaker 3>court there made an exception.

538
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:30.680
<v Speaker 2>So I would say, you know, there are instances in

539
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:34.000
<v Speaker 2>which you can engage in military action defensively. There are

540
00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:36.880
<v Speaker 2>some actions that I think don't amount to war. I

541
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:40.039
<v Speaker 2>think that's true, But we're at the point now where

542
00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:43.319
<v Speaker 2>we're so far beyond that we're engaged in a certainly

543
00:26:43.319 --> 00:26:46.759
<v Speaker 2>an Iran case, in what has to be understood as

544
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:49.880
<v Speaker 2>a war, an aggressive war that was initiated by one

545
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.839
<v Speaker 2>person that that's clearly illegal. So don't you know, I

546
00:26:52.880 --> 00:26:55.119
<v Speaker 2>don't demand that we go back to a time in

547
00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.039
<v Speaker 2>which there are formal declarations of war that was true,

548
00:26:58.359 --> 00:27:01.079
<v Speaker 2>I think close to the founding and you know where

549
00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:03.559
<v Speaker 2>Congress had to debate that they could debate something short

550
00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:06.119
<v Speaker 2>of it. We could also acknowledge that there are instances

551
00:27:06.119 --> 00:27:09.039
<v Speaker 2>of defensive action short of war. But what we can't

552
00:27:09.079 --> 00:27:12.440
<v Speaker 2>allow anymore are the kind of extensive involvements of the

553
00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:15.960
<v Speaker 2>kind that we're having in Iran without any debate, without

554
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:17.160
<v Speaker 2>any Congressional action.

555
00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:19.759
<v Speaker 3>And so you know, I'm not actually I don't feel

556
00:27:19.799 --> 00:27:21.440
<v Speaker 3>like I'm asking even.

557
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.319
<v Speaker 2>For what you know, what you're talking about, which is

558
00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:26.440
<v Speaker 2>probably what the Framers meant, just something.

559
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:29.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, I'm an originalist, Corey. I don't know

560
00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:31.640
<v Speaker 1>if you know that about being Okay, So before we

561
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:33.440
<v Speaker 1>hit the break and I talk about what might be

562
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:37.119
<v Speaker 1>the wackiest story of the week, except for the fact

563
00:27:37.160 --> 00:27:41.000
<v Speaker 1>that it might be completely related to the President's ability

564
00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:43.799
<v Speaker 1>to declare little wars when he feels like it. I

565
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:46.559
<v Speaker 1>want to laugh at this story, except I'm too terrified

566
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:48.079
<v Speaker 1>because I know what might be behind it.

567
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:49.200
<v Speaker 4>Corey.

568
00:27:49.279 --> 00:27:52.839
<v Speaker 1>Nothing says rule of law to me like indicting a

569
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:58.160
<v Speaker 1>ninety four year old former dictator thirty years later while

570
00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:01.079
<v Speaker 1>half of this country is terrified, we're going to have

571
00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:03.640
<v Speaker 1>to sell bone marrow for gas money. Can we talk

572
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:07.359
<v Speaker 1>about Raul Castro. Man's ninety four years old and the

573
00:28:07.440 --> 00:28:10.400
<v Speaker 1>DOJ has now charged him over the nineteen ninety six

574
00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:13.640
<v Speaker 1>shooting down of civilian planes, which is evil and horrific.

575
00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.160
<v Speaker 1>But boy, this timing scares me for very Cold War reasons,

576
00:28:18.200 --> 00:28:22.680
<v Speaker 1>because I can already visualize Marco Rubio dusting off a

577
00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:26.079
<v Speaker 1>bay of pigs power point and saying, gentlemen, this time

578
00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:29.880
<v Speaker 1>it'll work. I mean, this seems like pretext for some

579
00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:33.359
<v Speaker 1>kind of military involvement. And I noticed the same people

580
00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.240
<v Speaker 1>who always think international law is tyranny it if applies

581
00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:40.400
<v Speaker 1>to us, they're huge fans of military accountability when it

582
00:28:40.440 --> 00:28:42.759
<v Speaker 1>involves a communist. What do you make of this? How

583
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:48.240
<v Speaker 1>significant and strange Jesus indictment thirty years later?

584
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:48.559
<v Speaker 2>Like?

585
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:50.039
<v Speaker 1>How weird is this to you?

586
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:53.640
<v Speaker 2>I think Marco Rubio really does have his eyes set

587
00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.440
<v Speaker 2>on regime change in Cuba. Of course, we saw them

588
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:01.119
<v Speaker 2>in Venezuela swoop in and take out a sitting president

589
00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:03.720
<v Speaker 2>and bring him to the United States, so we know

590
00:29:03.799 --> 00:29:05.960
<v Speaker 2>that they're willing to do it. I think part of

591
00:29:05.960 --> 00:29:08.920
<v Speaker 2>why they're trying to wind down the war in Iran

592
00:29:09.119 --> 00:29:11.279
<v Speaker 2>is so that they can turn their attention to Cuba.

593
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:14.039
<v Speaker 2>And you know, this is part of how they did

594
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:16.880
<v Speaker 2>it in Venezuela two they indicted Maduro, they went in

595
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:19.799
<v Speaker 2>and grabbed him. Raul Castro, it's on the same thing.

596
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:23.519
<v Speaker 2>He's not the current president of Cuba. But the fact

597
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:26.039
<v Speaker 2>that they're using this as a way of starting to.

598
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.839
<v Speaker 3>Put pressure on Cuba. Who knows what's in their plan.

599
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:31.960
<v Speaker 1>But because the timing does seem that might.

600
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.200
<v Speaker 2>Be generated to his arrest, they might use as a

601
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.720
<v Speaker 2>pretext to jump in something like that. And you know,

602
00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:39.640
<v Speaker 2>this all goes to We've been talking about the rule

603
00:29:39.640 --> 00:29:42.400
<v Speaker 2>of law at home and its relationship to human rights

604
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:45.240
<v Speaker 2>abuses and abuses of the rule of law abroad, and

605
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:47.359
<v Speaker 2>that's what's going on here, a kind of ability of

606
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:49.519
<v Speaker 2>the American state to do whatever it wants.

607
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:50.079
<v Speaker 3>I've got it.

608
00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:51.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to go to history a little bit, because,

609
00:29:51.759 --> 00:29:53.759
<v Speaker 2>as you know, I've been spending time in the Nixon

610
00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:57.440
<v Speaker 2>Library and the archives and reading about those who are

611
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:01.799
<v Speaker 2>arrested and the Watergate breaking. They're reach involvement with the CIA.

612
00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Some of them was involvement in the Bay of Pigs,

613
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.359
<v Speaker 2>and the organizer of the Bay of Pigs, one of

614
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:10.960
<v Speaker 2>the organizers was also the organizer of the plumbers unit

615
00:30:11.039 --> 00:30:14.079
<v Speaker 2>the break ins in the United States, and that's Howard Hunt.

616
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.039
<v Speaker 2>And you know, all of it just feels eerie, this

617
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:21.160
<v Speaker 2>sort of a kind of obsession with doing whatever you want,

618
00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.359
<v Speaker 2>both at home and attacking your enemies at home, and

619
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:26.119
<v Speaker 2>then also yes, the Bay of Pigs.

620
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.920
<v Speaker 3>You know, let's just go and invade a foreign state.

621
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:31.000
<v Speaker 2>And of course this won't come to tie to the

622
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.200
<v Speaker 2>last topic with any kind of declaration of war.

623
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:34.079
<v Speaker 3>They'll just do it.

624
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:37.519
<v Speaker 2>And it really is an example of why we are

625
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.160
<v Speaker 2>again talking about that imperial presidency that we're stuck with

626
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:41.839
<v Speaker 2>at this moment.

627
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Okay, first of all, I just want to say, you

628
00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:48.400
<v Speaker 1>are the only man living in Italy right now who

629
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:51.079
<v Speaker 1>has spoken fondly of his time at the Nixon Library.

630
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:53.680
<v Speaker 1>Good god man, you're in Italy and you're talking about

631
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:56.759
<v Speaker 1>the Nixon Library that I'm stuck on that. But this

632
00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:58.960
<v Speaker 1>is this is really keeping me up at night, Corey,

633
00:30:58.960 --> 00:31:01.759
<v Speaker 1>because I mean, I think that we can balance accountability

634
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:08.079
<v Speaker 1>for genuine human rights abuses without turning prosecutions into like

635
00:31:08.319 --> 00:31:13.319
<v Speaker 1>ideological theater or pretense for war. I mean, actions like

636
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.079
<v Speaker 1>this really seem to strengthen all the claims of other

637
00:31:16.119 --> 00:31:20.160
<v Speaker 1>governments that our institutions are jokes and just instruments of

638
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:23.440
<v Speaker 1>political pressure for one guy, Like how does this make

639
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:25.720
<v Speaker 1>us look in the rest of the world that we

640
00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:28.880
<v Speaker 1>waited till this guy was ninety four because we want

641
00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:31.759
<v Speaker 1>to appoint Marco Rubio as viceroy to Cuba.

642
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:34.680
<v Speaker 3>Well, we're getting really deep in this conversation.

643
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:36.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, professor. We have even mentioned how we've been

644
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:38.920
<v Speaker 1>starving the island. I mean, we had a blockade on

645
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:41.759
<v Speaker 1>the island. They don't have gasoline, Like, things are really

646
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:44.079
<v Speaker 1>dire there. And this is another example of the pressure

647
00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:46.400
<v Speaker 1>we're putting on this island that our media is not

648
00:31:46.640 --> 00:31:48.000
<v Speaker 1>really dwelling on too much.

649
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:50.119
<v Speaker 3>You know, I couldn't agree more.

650
00:31:50.160 --> 00:31:54.000
<v Speaker 2>And as we talked to Andrew Glazer in the next discussion,

651
00:31:54.160 --> 00:31:56.160
<v Speaker 2>we're going to go so much more in depth into

652
00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:59.440
<v Speaker 2>the ways that America claims to be supporting abroad the

653
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.680
<v Speaker 2>rule of law law, and at the same time is

654
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:05.880
<v Speaker 2>literally undermining it, really undermining human rights, being complicit and

655
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:10.720
<v Speaker 2>encouraging human rights violations. That's what our discussion will be about.

656
00:32:10.920 --> 00:32:12.759
<v Speaker 2>And you see it here too, that you know, this

657
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:15.680
<v Speaker 2>is an indictment. It's about the rule of law, supposedly,

658
00:32:16.119 --> 00:32:19.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, specifically, it's about these planes that were shot

659
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:23.680
<v Speaker 2>down during a conflict between the Cuban government and exiles

660
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:27.920
<v Speaker 2>in the United States, and the Cuban government's argument.

661
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.640
<v Speaker 3>Was that their airspace was being violated. This was essentially,

662
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:32.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, a military decision.

663
00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:35.359
<v Speaker 2>Now the idea that was being framed simply as a

664
00:32:35.480 --> 00:32:38.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of crime. You know, it looks like it's an

665
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.200
<v Speaker 2>assertion of the rule of law. But what's really going on,

666
00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:43.200
<v Speaker 2>if we just pull back from all these details, is

667
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:45.559
<v Speaker 2>it's an attempt to use the rule of law as

668
00:32:45.559 --> 00:32:48.799
<v Speaker 2>a subterfuge to engage in yet another attack on a

669
00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:52.000
<v Speaker 2>foreign government, an illegal one if they invade. Because there

670
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:55.680
<v Speaker 2>is no congressional debate about this. And you know, again,

671
00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:58.079
<v Speaker 2>the rule of law is the subterfuge. That's the rhetoric,

672
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and what's really going on is a kind of lawlessness

673
00:33:01.039 --> 00:33:04.920
<v Speaker 2>and disregard for international laws certainly, and as we'll talk

674
00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:07.319
<v Speaker 2>about in the next discussion, for human rights more.

675
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:11.200
<v Speaker 1>Generally, and of course, what always happens, Professor, when law

676
00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:15.160
<v Speaker 1>and order talk becomes deeply entangled with nationalism and militarism.

677
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:16.359
<v Speaker 4>We already know.

678
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:19.160
<v Speaker 1>Let's take a quick break at when we come back,

679
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.680
<v Speaker 1>I am so excited to bring you our conversation with

680
00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:26.640
<v Speaker 1>Andrew Glazer and talk about the amazing essential documentary Spring

681
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:36.880
<v Speaker 1>of the Vanishing. Don't go away. Welcome back to the

682
00:33:36.880 --> 00:33:39.519
<v Speaker 1>Oath in the office. I'm John Fugel, saying Professor Bretschneider,

683
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:42.640
<v Speaker 1>I am very excited to welcome this next guest to

684
00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:47.079
<v Speaker 1>talk about a really important film that every American deserves

685
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:49.039
<v Speaker 1>to know about and the members of Congress should be

686
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:51.759
<v Speaker 1>forced to know about. Spring of the Vanishing is an

687
00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:55.440
<v Speaker 1>incredible new documentary from Emmy winning filmmaker Andrew Glazer, and

688
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.279
<v Speaker 1>it follows the family so forty nine people who disappeared

689
00:33:58.279 --> 00:34:02.920
<v Speaker 1>in Nuevo Laredo, Mexico, after a US trained Mexican military

690
00:34:03.000 --> 00:34:06.160
<v Speaker 1>unit launched a really brutal anti cartel operation and at

691
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:08.000
<v Speaker 1>the center is an eighteen year old young man, a

692
00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:13.639
<v Speaker 1>US born teenager, Jorge Dominguez, and his disappearance exposes the

693
00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:17.639
<v Speaker 1>human cost of this militarized, never ending war on drugs.

694
00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:20.599
<v Speaker 1>What a pleasure to welcome Andrew Glazer to the podcast.

695
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:24.000
<v Speaker 1>Hello sir, Thanks so much for having me. Thank you

696
00:34:24.039 --> 00:34:27.599
<v Speaker 1>for making this film, Corey. This is a devastating movie,

697
00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:29.840
<v Speaker 1>and it follows this young man's mother, as you know,

698
00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:33.000
<v Speaker 1>and other relatives of missing people and their search for

699
00:34:33.239 --> 00:34:37.199
<v Speaker 1>justice and accountability from both the US and Mexico. And

700
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:39.239
<v Speaker 1>I think that's the most powerful part of this film,

701
00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:43.199
<v Speaker 1>mister Glazer, is that our American government is very much

702
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:46.159
<v Speaker 1>at the center of this atrocity that leads to a

703
00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:47.320
<v Speaker 1>missing American teenager.

704
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:50.519
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, I mean, I think one of the things that

705
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.920
<v Speaker 6>we were trying to make clear, both with the subjects

706
00:34:53.920 --> 00:34:56.480
<v Speaker 6>of our film and people we were sharing it with,

707
00:34:57.320 --> 00:34:59.719
<v Speaker 6>was that this is not another story about what was

708
00:34:59.719 --> 00:35:03.039
<v Speaker 6>mexi Ago. This is very much a story that implicates

709
00:35:03.559 --> 00:35:06.599
<v Speaker 6>US policy in Mexico and in Latin America that's very

710
00:35:06.679 --> 00:35:09.639
<v Speaker 6>much alive right now in the news to some degree

711
00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.840
<v Speaker 6>in recent weeks and months with our current President Donald Trump.

712
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.880
<v Speaker 2>One thing Andrew that I want to ask you about,

713
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:18.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, because it really leaps out at you as

714
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:20.719
<v Speaker 2>you watch this powerful film, and we were talking about

715
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:23.840
<v Speaker 2>this with our producer Wendy as well. Is the parallels

716
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:26.280
<v Speaker 2>with what's happening in the United States. You have an

717
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:30.039
<v Speaker 2>example of what should be law enforcement issues that are

718
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:33.440
<v Speaker 2>being handled by a military and what that results in

719
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:36.880
<v Speaker 2>the film shows us very closely and clearly is a

720
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:40.480
<v Speaker 2>total disregard for human rights, for civil liberties because the

721
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:44.639
<v Speaker 2>military is trained in war, not in policing. And the

722
00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:46.519
<v Speaker 2>parallels anyway, they jumped out at me, and I'm just

723
00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:48.719
<v Speaker 2>wondering if you have any thoughts about this as sort

724
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:52.000
<v Speaker 2>of a way in especially for the themes of this podcast,

725
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.159
<v Speaker 2>are the parallels between what happened in Minnesota with Ice

726
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.360
<v Speaker 2>and the killing of Alex Pretty and the total disregard

727
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:03.559
<v Speaker 2>for his civil liberties, including of course the immediate reaction

728
00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:06.199
<v Speaker 2>that you know, this was of course justified that this

729
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:09.239
<v Speaker 2>was some sort of terrorists without any kind of information,

730
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:12.440
<v Speaker 2>and the kind of defensiveness that you see of the

731
00:36:12.440 --> 00:36:17.239
<v Speaker 2>military intervention and the militaries, Mexican militaries as the film

732
00:36:17.480 --> 00:36:21.880
<v Speaker 2>shows and argues, disregard of civil liberties and even basic

733
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:25.000
<v Speaker 2>rights against murder. So do you see those parallels and

734
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:26.079
<v Speaker 2>tell us about them.

735
00:36:26.719 --> 00:36:29.519
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, both, you know, in the way you described it,

736
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:34.639
<v Speaker 6>but also just in sort of the practicalities. The Mexican military,

737
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:38.639
<v Speaker 6>like the US military, is not trained to do police activity.

738
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:41.039
<v Speaker 6>What is the difference between what police and military do.

739
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.039
<v Speaker 6>A good cop knows who the good guys or bad

740
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:47.159
<v Speaker 6>guys are. They are part of the community, they're on

741
00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:50.320
<v Speaker 6>the street, they might be from the area. This particular

742
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:54.679
<v Speaker 6>unit of the Mexican military was the kind of shock troops,

743
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:58.519
<v Speaker 6>special forces, guys who were trained to kill and they're

744
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:02.920
<v Speaker 6>armed and trained and provided intelligence by the US to

745
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:06.280
<v Speaker 6>do that. So when they came in to Novl Laredo,

746
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.159
<v Speaker 6>very few, if any of them, were from the area.

747
00:37:09.639 --> 00:37:13.800
<v Speaker 6>It's an extremely dangerous part of Mexico, and Mexico has

748
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:16.679
<v Speaker 6>some very dangerous places, but at times Novl Laredo has

749
00:37:16.760 --> 00:37:19.519
<v Speaker 6>been one of the most dangerous places on the planet.

750
00:37:19.519 --> 00:37:22.280
<v Speaker 6>And that was during the kind of peak of the

751
00:37:22.400 --> 00:37:25.320
<v Speaker 6>Afghanistan and Iraq wars in twenty two thousand and six

752
00:37:25.480 --> 00:37:28.119
<v Speaker 6>thousand and seven, So that gives you some perspective. So

753
00:37:28.159 --> 00:37:31.920
<v Speaker 6>it is a dangerous place, and they dropped these heavily armed,

754
00:37:32.519 --> 00:37:36.880
<v Speaker 6>heavily trained, highly trained, lethal forces into Nova Laredo to

755
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:42.519
<v Speaker 6>pacify the cartel. And they didn't investigate, they didn't arrest,

756
00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:44.760
<v Speaker 6>they didn't do stings and buy and bus.

757
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:46.039
<v Speaker 4>They went in and killed.

758
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:49.079
<v Speaker 6>And to put a highlight on it, John, you mentioned

759
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.679
<v Speaker 6>forty nine people. That's actually the low end of the

760
00:37:52.719 --> 00:37:56.119
<v Speaker 6>cases that we know about. We documented forty nine, but

761
00:37:56.159 --> 00:37:58.679
<v Speaker 6>there were probably at least three times as many as

762
00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:02.079
<v Speaker 6>that people who didn't dare to come forward and make complaints,

763
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:05.800
<v Speaker 6>So that's a very real problem. People were all innocent.

764
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:10.000
<v Speaker 6>These were not extra judicially killed criminals. These were people

765
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:12.199
<v Speaker 6>who were in the wrong place at the wrong time,

766
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:15.440
<v Speaker 6>maybe looked the wrong way. And the kid, Jorge Domingos,

767
00:38:15.480 --> 00:38:18.239
<v Speaker 6>who's sort of central to our film was from Texas,

768
00:38:18.679 --> 00:38:22.400
<v Speaker 6>and we suspect he was picked up because his mom

769
00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:25.360
<v Speaker 6>lived in a fairly nice neighborhood in NorVa Laredo, and

770
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:28.360
<v Speaker 6>as a Mexican American kid from Texas, he kind of

771
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:32.760
<v Speaker 6>dressed with baggy jeans and a shaved head that kind

772
00:38:32.760 --> 00:38:35.480
<v Speaker 6>of suggested cholo and gangbanger.

773
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:36.920
<v Speaker 4>He was not. He was a good kid.

774
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:38.840
<v Speaker 6>And there were two other twelve year old kids who

775
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:42.320
<v Speaker 6>were killed, who were clearly not sophisticated gangsters, so innocent

776
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:43.079
<v Speaker 6>people were killed.

777
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:46.480
<v Speaker 1>The film opens with Porge's mother describing the moment her

778
00:38:46.519 --> 00:38:49.480
<v Speaker 1>son vanished, and one of the most haunting aspects of

779
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:52.559
<v Speaker 1>the film really is how ordinary these families were. These

780
00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:56.039
<v Speaker 1>people were not activists. These were ordinary people who became

781
00:38:56.119 --> 00:39:00.480
<v Speaker 1>activists because the state gave them no choice. And it

782
00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:05.920
<v Speaker 1>really captures this unbearable uncertainty, these families searching for years

783
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.880
<v Speaker 1>without answers. I'm curious and your experience making the film,

784
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:14.519
<v Speaker 1>how do people psychologically begin to survive that kind of disappearance.

785
00:39:15.719 --> 00:39:20.400
<v Speaker 6>So interestingly enough, the mother of Jorge do Mingez vacillates

786
00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.960
<v Speaker 6>between speaking of him and the present and past tense,

787
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.599
<v Speaker 6>so sometimes she doesn't even acknowledge that he is dead,

788
00:39:27.159 --> 00:39:27.760
<v Speaker 6>although all.

789
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:28.760
<v Speaker 4>Evidence points to that.

790
00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:31.800
<v Speaker 6>Part of the evil of making people disappear is that

791
00:39:31.840 --> 00:39:34.480
<v Speaker 6>there's not that closure and burial.

792
00:39:34.159 --> 00:39:37.679
<v Speaker 4>Site that the families get to visit or experience.

793
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:42.000
<v Speaker 6>So it really to answer your question, what would you

794
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:44.320
<v Speaker 6>do if your child went missing? I mean, it's the

795
00:39:44.320 --> 00:39:46.440
<v Speaker 6>only thing you can do. And these were people who

796
00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:48.880
<v Speaker 6>are sort of jostled out of their day to day

797
00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:52.360
<v Speaker 6>existence of you know, These aren't wealthy people. These are

798
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:56.760
<v Speaker 6>working people, and they have, particularly the women, the wives

799
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:00.119
<v Speaker 6>and the mothers of the missing, have taken a real

800
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.239
<v Speaker 6>huge role in finding justice, and in this case they did.

801
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:06.960
<v Speaker 6>But there's you know, even in the New York Times

802
00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:10.000
<v Speaker 6>this week, there's been stories about mothers elsewhere in the

803
00:40:10.039 --> 00:40:14.800
<v Speaker 6>country in Mexico who were seeking their children's remains, and

804
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:16.719
<v Speaker 6>they're very they're very active part of it. There's an

805
00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:22.880
<v Speaker 6>interesting law in Mexico where the federal prosecutors actually enable

806
00:40:23.199 --> 00:40:25.719
<v Speaker 6>and bring the women out to look to be part

807
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:30.559
<v Speaker 6>of the search for the bodies. So it's really it's

808
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:34.760
<v Speaker 6>really an emotionally wrenching experience. And on top of that,

809
00:40:35.000 --> 00:40:39.800
<v Speaker 6>it is so commonplace the disappearance of people that often

810
00:40:40.280 --> 00:40:43.079
<v Speaker 6>these women will find remains that are not their child,

811
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.800
<v Speaker 6>just randomly fine remains of other people who were buried

812
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:47.239
<v Speaker 6>in these.

813
00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:49.440
<v Speaker 4>These mass graves and locations outside of town.

814
00:40:49.559 --> 00:40:52.920
<v Speaker 6>So it's really a horrible experience that these these mothers

815
00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:54.920
<v Speaker 6>and wives have to have to go through.

816
00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:58.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm really curious. I'm sorry, Corea. I mean, to the

817
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:02.159
<v Speaker 1>making of the film, did talking to these family members,

818
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:06.519
<v Speaker 1>did you hear anything that fundamentally changed your understanding of

819
00:41:06.559 --> 00:41:08.280
<v Speaker 1>what we call the war on drugs.

820
00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:12.960
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, I mean there is lots of collateral damage, and

821
00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:17.320
<v Speaker 6>that it involves ordinary people who you know, this Jr.

822
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.960
<v Speaker 6>Hi Dominguez, the kid who was featured in our film,

823
00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:23.840
<v Speaker 6>was helping his mom get some water for their construction

824
00:41:24.039 --> 00:41:27.920
<v Speaker 6>crew and he left the house and disappeared and was

825
00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:30.559
<v Speaker 6>never seen again. So these aren't people who are sort

826
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:32.679
<v Speaker 6>of flirting with criminal lives.

827
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:33.920
<v Speaker 4>These are ordinary people.

828
00:41:34.280 --> 00:41:38.079
<v Speaker 6>And the drug war which is very focused by the

829
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:43.119
<v Speaker 6>US and incentivizing military involvement in Latin America and the

830
00:41:43.159 --> 00:41:46.639
<v Speaker 6>drug war, and that includes Mexico of course, but we've

831
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:49.000
<v Speaker 6>seen what's been going on in Ecuador and the bombing

832
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:51.960
<v Speaker 6>of the so called drug boats and in Colombia off

833
00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:56.159
<v Speaker 6>the coast of Columbia, and this goes back. It's almost

834
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:59.440
<v Speaker 6>as if the kind of lessons that we thought we

835
00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:02.400
<v Speaker 6>would have learned and in the Cold War massacres and

836
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:07.599
<v Speaker 6>the support of right wing militaries and does you would

837
00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:09.960
<v Speaker 6>have thought that we would have learned the lessons of

838
00:42:10.039 --> 00:42:12.400
<v Speaker 6>that and that kind of blunt instrument and support and

839
00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:17.400
<v Speaker 6>the unintended consequences of giving arms and training, lethal training

840
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:19.880
<v Speaker 6>to militaries in places where.

841
00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:22.840
<v Speaker 4>The militaries don't have a lot of constraints. Yep.

842
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:25.119
<v Speaker 2>I did want to follow up on that Andrew to

843
00:42:25.280 --> 00:42:28.199
<v Speaker 2>ask about the complicity of the US, and that's of

844
00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:30.360
<v Speaker 2>course a big part of the film. This isn't just

845
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:33.280
<v Speaker 2>a story about a tragedy that happened in Mexico or

846
00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:37.039
<v Speaker 2>an abusive government or an overly militaristic response by the

847
00:42:37.039 --> 00:42:40.639
<v Speaker 2>Mexican government. It's about the US involvement. So tell us

848
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:44.119
<v Speaker 2>how is the United States involved in this story and

849
00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:45.400
<v Speaker 2>what are the details there?

850
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.480
<v Speaker 6>So to start with kind of the involvement on the ground.

851
00:42:50.039 --> 00:42:54.079
<v Speaker 6>When the mother of Jorge Domingez went to the US

852
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:57.000
<v Speaker 6>consulate in Nuevo Laredo, which is what you're supposed to

853
00:42:57.039 --> 00:43:00.400
<v Speaker 6>do when an American goes missing, and her son was

854
00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:04.480
<v Speaker 6>an American teenager, and they told her they couldn't help.

855
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.599
<v Speaker 6>And when she asked why, she didn't get a clear answer.

856
00:43:07.639 --> 00:43:10.360
<v Speaker 6>She met with the FBI, which has a presence there.

857
00:43:10.519 --> 00:43:12.599
<v Speaker 6>She crossed the border one day to meet with them,

858
00:43:13.159 --> 00:43:15.039
<v Speaker 6>and they told her the same thing. They blamed it

859
00:43:15.079 --> 00:43:18.719
<v Speaker 6>on the cartel, and that includes the consul general at

860
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:19.480
<v Speaker 6>the time, a guy.

861
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:20.360
<v Speaker 4>Named Philip Linderman.

862
00:43:21.039 --> 00:43:24.639
<v Speaker 6>He constantly was blaming it on the cartel and the

863
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:28.800
<v Speaker 6>local human rights defender who organized these wives and mothers.

864
00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:32.239
<v Speaker 6>He said that the human rights defender was in the

865
00:43:32.280 --> 00:43:35.519
<v Speaker 6>pocket of the cartel and that these wives and mothers

866
00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:37.920
<v Speaker 6>who were missing loved ones were.

867
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:39.559
<v Speaker 4>Paid crisis actors.

868
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:43.280
<v Speaker 6>And that actually culminated in the day that my film

869
00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:47.519
<v Speaker 6>was released, the US Treasury sanctioned this human rights defender,

870
00:43:47.599 --> 00:43:51.719
<v Speaker 6>Drummond Ramos, who's featured in our film, for alleged ties

871
00:43:51.960 --> 00:43:55.679
<v Speaker 6>to the cartel and for allegedly hiring these crisis actors.

872
00:43:55.719 --> 00:43:57.920
<v Speaker 6>So it wasn't just a suspicion on their part. They

873
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:02.239
<v Speaker 6>actually leveraged that suspicion to something that will really affect

874
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:06.679
<v Speaker 6>his life and the credibility of his case, which he's

875
00:44:06.719 --> 00:44:10.760
<v Speaker 6>been deemed very credible by international human rights organizations including

876
00:44:10.800 --> 00:44:15.079
<v Speaker 6>Amnesty International, the United Nations, and ultimately, in the case

877
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:18.400
<v Speaker 6>that we looked at the military, the Mexican military, for

878
00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:21.960
<v Speaker 6>the first time I think in Mexico's history, apologized for

879
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:25.480
<v Speaker 6>these human rights abuses. So there was no question ultimately

880
00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:29.480
<v Speaker 6>that this guy, this human rights defender, and the case

881
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:33.519
<v Speaker 6>he was building was accurate. It was just a lot

882
00:44:33.559 --> 00:44:36.800
<v Speaker 6>of attempts to discredit him. Of course, I'm sorry of

883
00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:39.119
<v Speaker 6>dancing on your question, Corey, But to get to it,

884
00:44:39.719 --> 00:44:42.920
<v Speaker 6>this unit, they're called no Base. They're the special forces

885
00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.719
<v Speaker 6>of the Mexican Navy, at least their commanders, and some

886
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:49.280
<v Speaker 6>of them got training at a place in Fort Benning

887
00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:54.679
<v Speaker 6>called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, and that

888
00:44:54.800 --> 00:44:56.679
<v Speaker 6>used to be called the School of the Americas. And

889
00:44:56.760 --> 00:44:57.719
<v Speaker 6>during the Cold War.

890
00:44:59.119 --> 00:44:59.960
<v Speaker 4>During the Cold.

891
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:04.400
<v Speaker 6>War, School the Americas trained some of Latin America's worst despots,

892
00:45:04.880 --> 00:45:09.519
<v Speaker 6>see guys who were leading the right wing militias or

893
00:45:09.639 --> 00:45:13.760
<v Speaker 6>military death squads in Central America and El Salvador in Guatemala.

894
00:45:14.039 --> 00:45:20.840
<v Speaker 6>Manuel Noriega famously trained there. Pinochet his apparatus got training there.

895
00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:22.880
<v Speaker 6>So it has a long dark history. And when I

896
00:45:22.960 --> 00:45:25.760
<v Speaker 6>draw the line between the lessons that we didn't learn

897
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:28.679
<v Speaker 6>from Cold War interventions in Latin America and to the

898
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.000
<v Speaker 6>drug war, it's not a dotted line. It's a pretty

899
00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:33.320
<v Speaker 6>continuous line. And that's what's something we wanted to point

900
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:33.960
<v Speaker 6>out in the film.

901
00:45:34.440 --> 00:45:36.559
<v Speaker 1>But I mean, this is why the film is so important,

902
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:40.519
<v Speaker 1>because Americans hear things like fight the cartels, and we

903
00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:44.679
<v Speaker 1>are groomed to assume that more military force equels more safety,

904
00:45:44.760 --> 00:45:47.719
<v Speaker 1>right we don't think about what happens when soldiers trained

905
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:52.119
<v Speaker 1>for combat are used for domestic policing. And your film

906
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:56.599
<v Speaker 1>suggests these killings weren't just corruption, it wasn't just rogue violence.

907
00:45:56.639 --> 00:46:02.000
<v Speaker 1>But this was the very predictable result of militarizing policing.

908
00:46:02.800 --> 00:46:04.559
<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, and to this day.

909
00:46:05.000 --> 00:46:08.320
<v Speaker 6>I mean, given the sanctions that were dropped on April fifteenth,

910
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:10.639
<v Speaker 6>the day my film was released. They're officials in the

911
00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:11.679
<v Speaker 6>US government who.

912
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:15.280
<v Speaker 4>Don't want to believe Raymondo Ramos or want to.

913
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:19.360
<v Speaker 6>Discredit him because there are things that could be done

914
00:46:19.960 --> 00:46:23.880
<v Speaker 6>to stop the funding of this lethal military unit. And

915
00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:27.199
<v Speaker 6>I should mention this military unit in Mexico that was

916
00:46:27.239 --> 00:46:30.760
<v Speaker 6>implicated in the massacre in Nuevo Loreedo that's the subject

917
00:46:30.760 --> 00:46:31.360
<v Speaker 6>of my film.

918
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:32.199
<v Speaker 4>They're the guys who.

919
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:35.480
<v Speaker 6>Caught al Chopo, So they're really loved by the DEA.

920
00:46:35.639 --> 00:46:39.599
<v Speaker 6>They're effective at healing bad guys or capturing bad guys.

921
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:42.440
<v Speaker 6>What they're not so effective at is what you said, John,

922
00:46:42.559 --> 00:46:45.440
<v Speaker 6>that they're not great. In fact, they're very bad police

923
00:46:45.559 --> 00:46:48.320
<v Speaker 6>because they kill a lot of innocent people. And there

924
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:51.199
<v Speaker 6>are laws in place that have been in place since

925
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.280
<v Speaker 6>I think nineteen ninety seven. The Leahy Laws. There were

926
00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:59.280
<v Speaker 6>laws sponsored by former Senator Patrick Lahey that give the

927
00:46:59.320 --> 00:47:03.559
<v Speaker 6>State Department and Department of Defense the ability to cut

928
00:47:03.559 --> 00:47:08.239
<v Speaker 6>off funding for militaries that are implicated in human rights abuses,

929
00:47:08.519 --> 00:47:11.440
<v Speaker 6>which this one clearly was. But that hasn't happened here

930
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:15.000
<v Speaker 6>and why. We talked to the former administrator of the

931
00:47:15.079 --> 00:47:18.360
<v Speaker 6>Layy Laws for the State Department, and he says that

932
00:47:18.440 --> 00:47:21.599
<v Speaker 6>it depends on the information they get. They're not on

933
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:25.719
<v Speaker 6>the ground investigating these claims, but they rely on the

934
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:29.840
<v Speaker 6>consul that they rely on local intelligence services and quote

935
00:47:29.880 --> 00:47:33.320
<v Speaker 6>unquote credible human rights workers and press. Well, there's no

936
00:47:33.400 --> 00:47:38.159
<v Speaker 6>press critically covering nobilarity anymore. They were killed into silence

937
00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:40.960
<v Speaker 6>in the bad days of the early days of the

938
00:47:41.000 --> 00:47:45.119
<v Speaker 6>drug war. The human rights defender that had compiled reports

939
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:46.920
<v Speaker 6>that were good enough for the UN and ultimately for

940
00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:50.920
<v Speaker 6>the Mexican military itself to concede that they had done

941
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:56.119
<v Speaker 6>something awful, they did not deem him credible because the

942
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:59.639
<v Speaker 6>Consul General had accused him of being a fraud a

943
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:03.519
<v Speaker 6>leader of its disinformation campaign. And I believe those accusations

944
00:48:03.519 --> 00:48:06.320
<v Speaker 6>are what ultimately led to the sanctions that were dropped

945
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:07.000
<v Speaker 6>last month.

946
00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I wanted to ask about that through line that

947
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:12.960
<v Speaker 2>you interesting through line and disturbing one that you drew

948
00:48:13.039 --> 00:48:17.880
<v Speaker 2>from America's support for right wing dictators in Latin America,

949
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:20.920
<v Speaker 2>for instance, for Pinochet, and the story that you're telling

950
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:25.679
<v Speaker 2>here and the militarization of Latin American societies at the

951
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:26.800
<v Speaker 2>behest in part.

952
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:27.719
<v Speaker 3>At least of the US.

953
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how much of this is a Trump story

954
00:48:30.960 --> 00:48:35.079
<v Speaker 2>and aside from going back to the nineteen seventies, and

955
00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:38.440
<v Speaker 2>how much of it is a story of the American

956
00:48:38.480 --> 00:48:42.719
<v Speaker 2>government's militarization of Latin America generally. You know, I just

957
00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:45.400
<v Speaker 2>don't know, So I was interested in that, given the

958
00:48:45.400 --> 00:48:47.679
<v Speaker 2>through line that you're drawing, is it a Trump story

959
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:51.119
<v Speaker 2>or is it a story of militarization and the United

960
00:48:51.119 --> 00:48:52.079
<v Speaker 2>States more generally.

961
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:56.000
<v Speaker 6>It's a good question because it's both and Trump in

962
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:58.000
<v Speaker 6>recent weeks. I don't know that it was as much

963
00:48:58.039 --> 00:49:01.239
<v Speaker 6>of a fixation of his in his first administration. The

964
00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:05.199
<v Speaker 6>border certainly was, and I think he animated a lot

965
00:49:05.239 --> 00:49:09.960
<v Speaker 6>of voters by evoking this threat of spillover from the

966
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:15.119
<v Speaker 6>chaotic northern Mexican border, which is not true Laredo, Texas,

967
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:18.800
<v Speaker 6>which is directly across the Rio Grande from noither. Laredo

968
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:21.559
<v Speaker 6>is one of the safest cities in America.

969
00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:22.960
<v Speaker 4>Same with al Paso.

970
00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:26.679
<v Speaker 6>It's you know, this kind of spillover threat is manufactured,

971
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:30.679
<v Speaker 6>but it is very much a story that begins in

972
00:49:30.880 --> 00:49:34.719
<v Speaker 6>the Cold War, which preceded Trump by decades. But he's

973
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:38.960
<v Speaker 6>been fixated on the quote unquote don Roe doctrine in

974
00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:42.800
<v Speaker 6>recent months. And I think because of what you said, John,

975
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:44.679
<v Speaker 6>I mean, it sounds it sounds like it makes a

976
00:49:44.719 --> 00:49:47.239
<v Speaker 6>lot of sense. There's a lot of bad guys, heavily

977
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:50.800
<v Speaker 6>armed bad guys right across the border. It's scary. The

978
00:49:50.880 --> 00:49:53.239
<v Speaker 6>cops are corrupt, so let's get the military there.

979
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:56.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and sure, let's flood it with guns, unless it's

980
00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:57.079
<v Speaker 1>Sarah Calder doing it.

981
00:49:57.199 --> 00:49:57.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

982
00:49:57.880 --> 00:49:58.119
<v Speaker 4>Yes.

983
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:01.519
<v Speaker 6>And ironically, of course, the cart are armed by our

984
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:04.679
<v Speaker 6>guns as well, that come from straw purchases right across

985
00:50:04.719 --> 00:50:07.199
<v Speaker 6>the border where it's very easy to buy guns. And

986
00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:10.679
<v Speaker 6>you know, to circle back to something even more ironic

987
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:14.840
<v Speaker 6>is it's been reported, and I can't confirm this, that

988
00:50:15.239 --> 00:50:18.360
<v Speaker 6>the cartel that is based in neuivl Loredo, which is

989
00:50:18.519 --> 00:50:21.039
<v Speaker 6>an offshoot of the Zetas, has its roots at the

990
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:23.960
<v Speaker 6>School of the America slash wind sech It started. The

991
00:50:24.039 --> 00:50:29.320
<v Speaker 6>Zetas cartel started with highly trained Mexican military forces that

992
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:34.360
<v Speaker 6>were trained for counter narcotics operations, and then they defected

993
00:50:34.639 --> 00:50:36.599
<v Speaker 6>to the Gulf cartel where they were the sort of

994
00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:39.800
<v Speaker 6>shock troops and security for them, and then they splintered

995
00:50:39.840 --> 00:50:43.119
<v Speaker 6>off and became one of the most deadly cartels in

996
00:50:43.519 --> 00:50:46.639
<v Speaker 6>Mexican history and in noibl Loredo and the state of Tamilipas.

997
00:50:46.760 --> 00:50:49.719
<v Speaker 6>So there's a lot of muddiness and irony kind of

998
00:50:49.719 --> 00:50:50.400
<v Speaker 6>mixed into it.

999
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:53.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, I just want to ask, I mean, my ultimate

1000
00:50:53.199 --> 00:50:56.440
<v Speaker 1>question is, after all the years you spent on this story,

1001
00:50:57.159 --> 00:50:59.960
<v Speaker 1>these stories, I mean, what do you now believe gov

1002
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:05.320
<v Speaker 1>men' sphere most cartels or citizens demanding accountability? What is

1003
00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:07.599
<v Speaker 1>scarier to political leaders?

1004
00:51:08.119 --> 00:51:11.199
<v Speaker 6>That's a great question, and it's we're seeing this play

1005
00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:15.079
<v Speaker 6>out right now with the current President of Mexico because

1006
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:19.079
<v Speaker 6>some of her close friends were just indicted, including the

1007
00:51:19.119 --> 00:51:23.920
<v Speaker 6>governor of Sinaloa, and that is unprecedented, and he was

1008
00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:28.000
<v Speaker 6>indicted for ties to the Sineloa cartel. So that is

1009
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:30.199
<v Speaker 6>what's happening right now is kind of at the crux

1010
00:51:30.239 --> 00:51:33.000
<v Speaker 6>of that. And she's also been very much in denial

1011
00:51:33.079 --> 00:51:37.840
<v Speaker 6>and belittling and countering the numbers have disappeared in Mexico

1012
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:41.400
<v Speaker 6>and the activists who have been trying to get accountability.

1013
00:51:41.400 --> 00:51:45.239
<v Speaker 6>I think the toll of the unaccounted for disappearances is

1014
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:48.599
<v Speaker 6>one hundred and eighty thousands from two thousand and seven.

1015
00:51:48.679 --> 00:51:50.119
<v Speaker 4>That's a huge number of people.

1016
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:53.400
<v Speaker 6>And the UN, a UN committee came out with that

1017
00:51:53.480 --> 00:51:55.639
<v Speaker 6>number and said it's probably even higher, and she said,

1018
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:58.360
<v Speaker 6>oh no, no, no, that's people who have been moved,

1019
00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:02.519
<v Speaker 6>who moved to another zip. And you know that numbers inflated.

1020
00:52:02.920 --> 00:52:07.639
<v Speaker 6>So I'm sure her survival, our political survival, because politics

1021
00:52:07.639 --> 00:52:10.719
<v Speaker 6>are very much intertwined with the cartels there, but also

1022
00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:13.199
<v Speaker 6>our physical survival, and this physical survival of a lot

1023
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:17.719
<v Speaker 6>of politicians there is dependent on not being killed by

1024
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:22.599
<v Speaker 6>the cartels. But these women, primarily the wives and the

1025
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:25.840
<v Speaker 6>mothers of the missing, have the courage. I face the

1026
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.039
<v Speaker 6>same risks for more, many more risks, and they go

1027
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:31.519
<v Speaker 6>out there every day and are protesting and going right

1028
00:52:31.559 --> 00:52:34.719
<v Speaker 6>to the presidential palace in Mexico City, and they're out

1029
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:37.320
<v Speaker 6>on the street, and they're out in the ranches where

1030
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:38.679
<v Speaker 6>a lot of these bodies are buried.

1031
00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:40.239
<v Speaker 4>That are owned by the cartels.

1032
00:52:40.239 --> 00:52:42.679
<v Speaker 6>So I think the fear is coming from all angles

1033
00:52:42.840 --> 00:52:45.840
<v Speaker 6>and everyone is kind of feeling it acutely in Mexico.

1034
00:52:46.199 --> 00:52:49.639
<v Speaker 1>So Mexican politicians fear the cartels, but American politicians, I

1035
00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:52.199
<v Speaker 1>think more fear citizens demanding accountability.

1036
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:55.559
<v Speaker 6>Yes, and they know that. I think Americans fear the cartels,

1037
00:52:55.559 --> 00:52:58.320
<v Speaker 6>and they can leverage that for I mean, we have

1038
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:01.079
<v Speaker 6>spent huge amounts of money both in the Plan Colombia,

1039
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:04.679
<v Speaker 6>in Colombia arming Colombian military to fight the cartels, and

1040
00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:06.960
<v Speaker 6>in Mexico there was kind of a sequel to that

1041
00:53:07.000 --> 00:53:09.920
<v Speaker 6>called the Merida Initiative, which in part led to a

1042
00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:12.679
<v Speaker 6>lot of these troops that are implicated in my film

1043
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:15.079
<v Speaker 6>to the human rights violations they committed.

1044
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:17.440
<v Speaker 4>They were trained and armed at the same place.

1045
00:53:17.920 --> 00:53:22.159
<v Speaker 6>So I think there is a legitimate fear of the cartels,

1046
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.360
<v Speaker 6>maybe somewhat in the United States, but that's also used,

1047
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:29.760
<v Speaker 6>I think well to get people to support arms and

1048
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:33.239
<v Speaker 6>training for these militaries and border enforcement, and also to

1049
00:53:33.400 --> 00:53:36.199
<v Speaker 6>vote for someone who stokes that fear, which is Trump

1050
00:53:36.199 --> 00:53:38.639
<v Speaker 6>and a lot of other people in office right now

1051
00:53:38.679 --> 00:53:42.639
<v Speaker 6>who you know, have made the immigration concern and conflating

1052
00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:46.239
<v Speaker 6>it with the drug cartels, that's a big thing, and

1053
00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:48.039
<v Speaker 6>they're not really that conflated at all.

1054
00:53:48.400 --> 00:53:51.000
<v Speaker 1>Indeed, that's why this film is just so important. And

1055
00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:52.440
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I guess it would have come at the

1056
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:54.880
<v Speaker 1>right time anytime in the last couple of decades, but

1057
00:53:54.920 --> 00:53:57.159
<v Speaker 1>it feels so prescient with all we're facing right now.

1058
00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.519
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Andy, Before we sign on off on this

1059
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:04.280
<v Speaker 2>amazing and extremely important discussion, to ask you about the

1060
00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:07.320
<v Speaker 2>connections to broaden out also by asking you about some of.

1061
00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.639
<v Speaker 3>The connections to other things that you've seen in the

1062
00:54:09.679 --> 00:54:10.440
<v Speaker 3>rest of the world.

1063
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:12.760
<v Speaker 2>Of course, we've been friends for a very long time,

1064
00:54:13.119 --> 00:54:15.199
<v Speaker 2>and I followed your work for a very long time.

1065
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:16.199
<v Speaker 3>And one of the things.

1066
00:54:15.960 --> 00:54:19.519
<v Speaker 2>That struck me as a parallel to this film is

1067
00:54:19.760 --> 00:54:21.760
<v Speaker 2>when you work for The New York Times. Of course,

1068
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:25.800
<v Speaker 2>you covered Toque Turte and in the name of cracking

1069
00:54:25.840 --> 00:54:29.719
<v Speaker 2>down on drugs and crime, the violence, really political violence

1070
00:54:29.719 --> 00:54:31.719
<v Speaker 2>at the behest of the state that went on there.

1071
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:34.360
<v Speaker 2>So can you talk a little bit about that work

1072
00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:37.239
<v Speaker 2>and any parallels that you see with what's happening here.

1073
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:40.840
<v Speaker 2>Our podcast, of course is focused on authoritarianism at home

1074
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:44.079
<v Speaker 2>but also abroad, and that seems to me to connect

1075
00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:48.440
<v Speaker 2>this story and other really important stories about authoritarian violence.

1076
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.760
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, so President Utte in the Philippines, it's a huge parallel,

1077
00:54:53.079 --> 00:54:56.079
<v Speaker 6>and he's someone who at the time was somewhat fetishized

1078
00:54:56.119 --> 00:54:58.159
<v Speaker 6>by President Trump as.

1079
00:54:58.039 --> 00:54:59.599
<v Speaker 4>Someone you could get the job done.

1080
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:04.880
<v Speaker 6>Job in his case was death squads of suspected drug

1081
00:55:04.920 --> 00:55:09.559
<v Speaker 6>traffickers and suspected in quotes, because anyone who had a

1082
00:55:09.599 --> 00:55:14.159
<v Speaker 6>dispute with their neighbor over a woman, over property, or noise,

1083
00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:18.960
<v Speaker 6>you could say, hey, he's dealing math out of his basement,

1084
00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:22.639
<v Speaker 6>and it wouldn't take much for these death squads, who

1085
00:55:22.679 --> 00:55:27.599
<v Speaker 6>were either police or Filipino military or sort of neighborhood

1086
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:31.039
<v Speaker 6>villagilantes who had a license, could come in and kill

1087
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:33.440
<v Speaker 6>them and they would leave them in the streets. So

1088
00:55:34.119 --> 00:55:38.679
<v Speaker 6>it was very similar in that ordinary people were inevitably

1089
00:55:38.679 --> 00:55:41.880
<v Speaker 6>getting swept up, and there was this culture and fog

1090
00:55:41.960 --> 00:55:46.360
<v Speaker 6>of complete fear in Manila and across the country where

1091
00:55:46.599 --> 00:55:49.960
<v Speaker 6>neighborhoods would just have bodies turn up and the cops

1092
00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:53.320
<v Speaker 6>would almost make fun of them by saying they were

1093
00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:57.119
<v Speaker 6>trying to flee, and the bodies were wrapped in duct tapes,

1094
00:55:57.159 --> 00:56:01.199
<v Speaker 6>so clearly they had been already captured and killed and

1095
00:56:01.239 --> 00:56:04.199
<v Speaker 6>wrapped in duct tape before they were fleeing, but no

1096
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:07.079
<v Speaker 6>one had the power to say anything. And fortunately, right

1097
00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:12.599
<v Speaker 6>now Turte's facing war crimes or crimes in the international courts.

1098
00:56:13.079 --> 00:56:16.559
<v Speaker 6>But Mexico, I don't know if they're going to have

1099
00:56:16.599 --> 00:56:19.119
<v Speaker 6>the same accountability. In the case of our film, as

1100
00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:24.519
<v Speaker 6>I mentioned, the military actually apologized for this massacre. They

1101
00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:26.800
<v Speaker 6>came to the public square and spoke to the wives

1102
00:56:26.800 --> 00:56:31.400
<v Speaker 6>and the mothers of the missing and admitted culpability. And

1103
00:56:31.440 --> 00:56:34.920
<v Speaker 6>they arrested thirty of the Marines who were allegedly implicated,

1104
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:37.920
<v Speaker 6>and then a few days later all but seven were released.

1105
00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:40.039
<v Speaker 6>And I got winned that a few weeks ago the

1106
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:42.239
<v Speaker 6>other seven were released and none are going to face

1107
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:43.440
<v Speaker 6>any kind of justice at all.

1108
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:45.159
<v Speaker 4>So that's the.

1109
00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:48.320
<v Speaker 6>Parallel, I guess, is the impunity, the lack of justice,

1110
00:56:48.320 --> 00:56:51.400
<v Speaker 6>and the ordinary people who were swept up in this

1111
00:56:51.480 --> 00:56:56.199
<v Speaker 6>authoritarian furor. And what's also interesting is these people, at

1112
00:56:56.280 --> 00:57:00.679
<v Speaker 6>least in the Philippines, they elected du Tertue on the

1113
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:03.280
<v Speaker 6>platform of him taking on this drug war.

1114
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:05.880
<v Speaker 4>So there's this, I would argue, a parallel to.

1115
00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:09.840
<v Speaker 6>The current administration in America, where the people who are

1116
00:57:09.840 --> 00:57:13.199
<v Speaker 6>most unlikely to be served and most likely to be

1117
00:57:13.320 --> 00:57:20.440
<v Speaker 6>hurt by the authoritarian are initially seduced by their pronouncements

1118
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:25.719
<v Speaker 6>of easy problem solving with always brutality, and it makes

1119
00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:28.519
<v Speaker 6>sense when your life is chaotic to want some sort

1120
00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:29.400
<v Speaker 6>of easy resolution.

1121
00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'll say you know, this podcast is all about accountability.

1122
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:36.199
<v Speaker 3>Accountability for Donald Trump.

1123
00:57:36.039 --> 00:57:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Accountability for his minions, and accountability for authoritarians around the

1124
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:45.159
<v Speaker 2>world who abuse human rights. And although accountability sometimes feels

1125
00:57:45.159 --> 00:57:47.760
<v Speaker 2>far off, I feel like the first step to accountability

1126
00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:51.039
<v Speaker 2>is transparency and that's what this film does so well.

1127
00:57:51.079 --> 00:57:53.880
<v Speaker 2>It tells a story that wouldn't have been told, it

1128
00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:57.440
<v Speaker 2>tells it in graphic detail with evidence, and you can

1129
00:57:57.519 --> 00:57:59.519
<v Speaker 2>watch what we're hearing about.

1130
00:57:59.800 --> 00:58:01.719
<v Speaker 3>So I urge listeners to check it out.

1131
00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:05.000
<v Speaker 2>And I really want to thank you Andrew Glazer for

1132
00:58:05.079 --> 00:58:07.960
<v Speaker 2>making Spring of the Vanishing and for joining us on

1133
00:58:08.000 --> 00:58:09.079
<v Speaker 2>the Oath in the Office.

1134
00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:11.559
<v Speaker 4>Thanks so much for having me. It was really fun

1135
00:58:11.599 --> 00:58:12.199
<v Speaker 4>talking to you guys.

1136
00:58:12.480 --> 00:58:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Mister Glazier. I want to thank you as well for

1137
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:15.639
<v Speaker 1>making the film and for joining us. What's the best

1138
00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:18.159
<v Speaker 1>way for our listeners to follow you and keep up

1139
00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:20.559
<v Speaker 1>with your work and Spring of the Vanishing.

1140
00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:24.599
<v Speaker 6>Thanks so Spring of the Vanishing can be rented, streamed

1141
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:29.800
<v Speaker 6>on Prime Video and Apple TV. My Twitter handle is

1142
00:58:30.119 --> 00:58:34.199
<v Speaker 6>at Andrew Glazer g Lazer. I'm not super active on

1143
00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:36.639
<v Speaker 6>social media, but I will try to be more and

1144
00:58:36.679 --> 00:58:40.039
<v Speaker 6>fill people in on developments in this story which is ongoing.

1145
00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:42.039
<v Speaker 2>And of course we'll also link to the video in

1146
00:58:42.039 --> 00:58:42.719
<v Speaker 2>the show notes.

1147
00:58:43.199 --> 00:58:45.800
<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for being so generous with your time.

1148
00:58:46.199 --> 00:58:48.760
<v Speaker 6>No, thank you for your interest. I really appreciate it.

1149
00:58:48.800 --> 00:58:50.639
<v Speaker 6>This is a huge help, and thank you both.

1150
00:58:50.880 --> 00:58:51.119
<v Speaker 4>Thank you.

1151
00:58:51.199 --> 00:58:52.960
<v Speaker 3>Thanks Andy, we got to go.

1152
00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:55.480
<v Speaker 1>Professor Brett Sneider, what is the best way for our

1153
00:58:55.519 --> 00:58:57.719
<v Speaker 1>listeners to follow you and keep up with your brilliance

1154
00:58:57.760 --> 00:58:59.440
<v Speaker 1>together lonely six days of the week.

1155
00:59:00.199 --> 00:59:04.079
<v Speaker 2>Say, if you enjoyed this discussion, you should subscribe, of course,

1156
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:06.440
<v Speaker 2>and you can watch us on YouTube or listen to

1157
00:59:06.519 --> 00:59:08.519
<v Speaker 2>us wherever you get your podcasts. You can find me

1158
00:59:08.559 --> 00:59:12.599
<v Speaker 2>on Blue Sky as Democracy prof and we have a substack,

1159
00:59:12.679 --> 00:59:15.039
<v Speaker 2>the Oath and the Office substack. And I'll just say

1160
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:18.519
<v Speaker 2>a final word about the whole episode, which was you know,

1161
00:59:18.760 --> 00:59:21.400
<v Speaker 2>one thing that we're doing every week is talking about

1162
00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:25.320
<v Speaker 2>the danger to democracy that this president is posing, and

1163
00:59:25.519 --> 00:59:27.760
<v Speaker 2>today I think we really dug into that idea of

1164
00:59:27.840 --> 00:59:31.400
<v Speaker 2>the Imperial Presidency, that there is a connection between our

1165
00:59:31.480 --> 00:59:33.960
<v Speaker 2>human rights abuses abroad of the kind that we had

1166
00:59:34.119 --> 00:59:37.639
<v Speaker 2>in this amazing discussion with Andrew Glazer and the abuses

1167
00:59:37.679 --> 00:59:40.280
<v Speaker 2>that we're seeing at home in the Braio Garcia case

1168
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:43.119
<v Speaker 2>and the other cases as well that we're talking about

1169
00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:46.159
<v Speaker 2>that are both threatening free speech for non citizens but

1170
00:59:46.280 --> 00:59:49.840
<v Speaker 2>also attacking voting rights at home. It's really part of

1171
00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:53.719
<v Speaker 2>a piece, and you know, it's worrying, it's upsetting, but

1172
00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:56.320
<v Speaker 2>it's such a pleasure John to be able to unpack

1173
00:59:56.360 --> 00:59:58.519
<v Speaker 2>all of this with you every week, and I think

1174
00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:02.119
<v Speaker 2>it gives usome the our listeners some sanity to get

1175
01:00:02.119 --> 01:00:04.400
<v Speaker 2>a grasp on what's happening, to be honest about it.

1176
01:00:04.440 --> 01:00:07.039
<v Speaker 2>But also that's part of the process of seeing hope

1177
01:00:07.400 --> 01:00:08.840
<v Speaker 2>in protecting our democracy.

1178
01:00:09.360 --> 01:00:11.320
<v Speaker 1>Corey, I want to thank you, and more importantly, my

1179
01:00:11.480 --> 01:00:13.480
<v Speaker 1>prole officer wants to thank you. This has been a

1180
01:00:13.559 --> 01:00:16.119
<v Speaker 1>very good experience for me overall and has kept me

1181
01:00:16.119 --> 01:00:18.199
<v Speaker 1>from relapsing in many ways. I also want to thank

1182
01:00:18.239 --> 01:00:20.400
<v Speaker 1>Wendy and Beowulf Fit all the brilliant people who put

1183
01:00:20.400 --> 01:00:23.880
<v Speaker 1>this podcast together. My God, the ratings for this thing, Corey.

1184
01:00:23.920 --> 01:00:24.519
<v Speaker 1>People love it.

1185
01:00:25.199 --> 01:00:25.519
<v Speaker 4>Folks.

1186
01:00:25.559 --> 01:00:28.400
<v Speaker 1>Please keep giving us reviews and sharing it and talking

1187
01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:30.360
<v Speaker 1>it up. We are so glad to be here. You

1188
01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:32.840
<v Speaker 1>can hear me five nights a week on Serious XM

1189
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:35.639
<v Speaker 1>Progress one twenty seven. If you don't have Serious XM,

1190
01:00:35.679 --> 01:00:38.000
<v Speaker 1>it's called the John FUGELSINGH Podcast five days a week.

1191
01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:40.840
<v Speaker 1>And my book is called Separation of Church and Hate.

1192
01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:43.639
<v Speaker 1>Professor Breschneider thank you once again. We'll see you guys

1193
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:46.000
<v Speaker 1>next time on the oath on the office