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<v Speaker 1>Hi Pathway, Chili listeners, Jewels here. I just wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>give you a little bit of a life update, and

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<v Speaker 1>I've been holding off on doing this because the circumstances

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<v Speaker 1>and situation is so incredibly traumatic. But in the last

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<v Speaker 1>couple of months, my life blew up and I have

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<v Speaker 1>a hard time even explaining all the details. It's very

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<v Speaker 1>complex and it's very nuanced. But my husband took his

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<v Speaker 1>own life, and the circumstances were not so cut and dry.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't just a mental health episode. There was a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of deception involved and a big mess was left

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<v Speaker 1>for me, and so there's a lot of complex emotions attached,

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<v Speaker 1>and I do have a story to tell about it.

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<v Speaker 1>It won't be now, it will be later when I

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<v Speaker 1>have some more perspective, and then I will share more

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<v Speaker 1>of the details and more of what I've gone through.

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<v Speaker 1>But I've had to move as a result. My whole

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<v Speaker 1>life has changed, and we've really done our best to

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<v Speaker 1>continue to record with Robin and I and Robin has

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<v Speaker 1>been such an incredible support, and Ashley's been a great

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<v Speaker 1>support too. She just hasn't been present with us, but

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<v Speaker 1>we've been in communication and I wanted to let you

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<v Speaker 1>guys know, because I know a lot of you are

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<v Speaker 1>wondering where is Ashley as she's not dealing with what

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<v Speaker 1>I'm dealing with specifically, She's had a lot of deeply

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<v Speaker 1>personal issues that have happened one after the other. There's

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<v Speaker 1>no tension with us, there's no discord between us. We

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<v Speaker 1>as a group of three are We've got this door

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<v Speaker 1>open for Ashley whenever she wants to come back, whenever

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<v Speaker 1>things calm down for her. But as it is right now,

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<v Speaker 1>just expect that it will be Robin and I until

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<v Speaker 1>everything calms down for Ashley, until her life normalizes and

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<v Speaker 1>she has the bandwidth to be able to record these episodes.

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<v Speaker 1>She's got her family to worry about right now and

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<v Speaker 1>to take care of, and that is priority one, and

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<v Speaker 1>we support her in everything that she does. So if

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<v Speaker 1>any of you want to know how you can help

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<v Speaker 1>or anything you can do. One thing that really raises

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<v Speaker 1>my spirits is anytime I read any of your nice reviews.

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<v Speaker 1>I love to hear reviews on the Path Went Chiley,

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<v Speaker 1>And when you guys talk about what you like about

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<v Speaker 1>the show, or what you like about the host or anything,

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<v Speaker 1>that definitely lifts my spirits. So if you're looking for

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<v Speaker 1>a freeway to support us, that would be fantastic. And

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<v Speaker 1>we have an episode on Debbie Race coming up, So

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for listening to my little spiel. And I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry it took so long to share these details with

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<v Speaker 1>you guys. It's been two and a half months now,

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<v Speaker 1>but I really needed to get to a place emotionally

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<v Speaker 1>where I was able to share the information without breaking down. So,

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<v Speaker 1>without further ado, here is the episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to our latest series of episodes from the Path

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<v Speaker 2>Went Chile. So it'll be Jules and I discussing the

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<v Speaker 2>featured case on our next few episodes, where I share

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<v Speaker 2>the details and she will give off her live reaction. So, Jules,

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<v Speaker 2>have you ever heard of the story of Debbie Race.

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<v Speaker 1>I definitely have not heard of this story or this

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<v Speaker 1>case before because I think I would remember the name,

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<v Speaker 1>and my aunt's name is Debbie, so I think it

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<v Speaker 1>would ring a bell.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this was a final appeal case on Unsolved Mysteries.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a potential wrongful conviction because the allegations where that

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<v Speaker 2>Debbie Race was murdered by her husband, Larry Race. But

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<v Speaker 2>this is one of those cases where it's not who

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<v Speaker 2>the real killer was, but whether it was actually a

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<v Speaker 2>murderer at all or nothing more than a tragic accident.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kind of a lesser known version of the Staircase

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<v Speaker 2>murder with Kathleen Peterson, because the allegation here is that

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<v Speaker 2>Larry Race took his wife Debbie out on a boating

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<v Speaker 2>ride late at night in freezing cold temperatures before the

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<v Speaker 2>boat developed a leak, and when they found Debbie's body,

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<v Speaker 2>the official cause of death was hypothermia, and he claimed

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<v Speaker 2>that they had tried to escape on a life raft

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<v Speaker 2>but they wound up getting separated before she froze to death.

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<v Speaker 2>But the authorities would find some holes in his stories

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<v Speaker 2>to make them think that this was an elaborate murder

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<v Speaker 2>plot where he deliberately left his wife out there to

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<v Speaker 2>freeze to death and die of hypothermia. So he wound

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<v Speaker 2>up getting convicted a murder, but there's been a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of debate about whether or not this was actually a

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<v Speaker 2>crime or if he was railroaded because his wife died

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<v Speaker 2>under tragic circumstances. And another paralleled with the Staircase murder

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<v Speaker 2>is that Larry Race is not the most likable husband.

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<v Speaker 2>He's much like Michael Peterson, but there is some debate

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<v Speaker 2>about even if he was a bad husband, whether he

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<v Speaker 2>was actually a murderer.

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<v Speaker 1>These are some of my favorite types of cases, the

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<v Speaker 1>ones where it's like the TV show accidents, suicide or murder,

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<v Speaker 1>where there's some type of ambiguity, or there's a potential

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<v Speaker 1>wrongful conviction, or somebody who isn't being looked at who

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<v Speaker 1>should be looked at, because there's a lot of open

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<v Speaker 1>ended elements of these cases, and sometimes there's the opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>to bring justice to a victim or for there to

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<v Speaker 1>be justice administered in a different type of a scenario

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<v Speaker 1>where there's somebody behind bars who shouldn't be there for

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<v Speaker 1>a murder when it was indeed an accident, or somebody

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<v Speaker 1>else committed the murder. So this is a case that

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<v Speaker 1>I'm really interested to hear the details about because I

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<v Speaker 1>was endlessly fascinated by the staircase and all of the

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<v Speaker 1>details there, and regardless of how I felt about Michael Peterson,

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<v Speaker 1>there was not a lot of evidence they didn't have

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<v Speaker 1>the murder weapon, and it seemed like there was a

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<v Speaker 1>potential for alternate scenarios like the owl theory, where there

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<v Speaker 1>was those microscopic owl pin feathers found in Kathleen's hand.

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<v Speaker 1>It was not so cut and dry. So anything where

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<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of interpretation or a lot of analysis

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<v Speaker 1>needed are cases that I find to be the most fascinating,

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<v Speaker 1>And so I'm really interested for you to fill me

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<v Speaker 1>in on all of this ambiguity and what are the

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<v Speaker 1>holes that were in his statement that made the authorities think, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>this could potentially be a murder rather than just a

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<v Speaker 1>tragic accident.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, a spoiler alert, there is no owl theory in

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<v Speaker 2>this case, so we won't present that scenario. But this

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<v Speaker 2>is honestly the only case I can think of in

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<v Speaker 2>which a husband has been accused of murdering his wife

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<v Speaker 2>by a hypothermia, because obviously there were no signs of

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<v Speaker 2>foul play on her body to indicate she had been murdered.

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<v Speaker 2>But can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a

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<v Speaker 2>husband left his wife out on a lake somewhere in

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<v Speaker 2>freezing cold temperatures to die and think that's strong enough

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<v Speaker 2>evidence to send an in prison for the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>his life.

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<v Speaker 1>It's really difficult too, because you're going to basically be

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<v Speaker 1>tried and convicted on the type of husband that you

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<v Speaker 1>were right, and you're saying that he's not a very

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<v Speaker 1>likable guy. He's obviously done things that make authorities side

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<v Speaker 1>eye him and think that he could potentially have set

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<v Speaker 1>this whole thing up in order to murder his wife.

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<v Speaker 1>And so I'm hoping that you get into the details

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<v Speaker 1>of why they were on the lake in this freezing

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<v Speaker 1>cold temperature. What was the catalyst or the impetus for

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<v Speaker 1>this boat ride. Was this something that was typical or

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<v Speaker 1>is this like an atypical thing that he's just bringing

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<v Speaker 1>her out on the boat. And so they're going, Okay, well,

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<v Speaker 1>why today, why now? And why in these really you know,

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<v Speaker 1>frigid temperatures when if somebody was to go overboard they

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<v Speaker 1>would be at risk. So yeah, I'm I'm sad for this.

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<v Speaker 2>Cool and you're probably gonna I'm gonna say some things

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<v Speaker 2>about Larry Race that are going to roll your eyes,

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<v Speaker 2>So prepare for that.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I'm prepared.

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<v Speaker 2>So the sakes place on May the eleventh, nineteen eighty two.

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<v Speaker 2>Larry and Debbie Race were both thirty three years old

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<v Speaker 2>at the time. They lived in the town of Hoite Lakes, Minnesota.

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<v Speaker 2>They'd been married for fourteen years and had three daughters,

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<v Speaker 2>and this particular night happened to be their fourteenth wedding anniversary,

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<v Speaker 2>so the couple decided to celebrate the evening by driving

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<v Speaker 2>to Duluth in order to have dinner at the Lakeview Castle,

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<v Speaker 2>a restaurant which overlooked the north shore of Lake Superior,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Races had been experiencing some problems before this,

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<v Speaker 2>as it turned out that Larry's surprise Surprise had issues

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<v Speaker 2>with infidelity and had conducted extramarial affairs with no fewer

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<v Speaker 2>than four different women during the course of their marriage,

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<v Speaker 2>but Larry described this as being a fresh start because

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<v Speaker 2>it was their fourteenyear anniversary, so they were having a

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<v Speaker 2>romantic evening together and Larry said that they were going

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<v Speaker 2>to work things out that particular night. But when he

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<v Speaker 2>was interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries many years later, he made

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<v Speaker 2>a very cringe worthy statement where he said, quote, I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to stop what I was doing, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>thinking this was maybe the chance. You know, I have

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<v Speaker 2>a wonderful woman here. There's nothing wrong with her end quote.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's nothing wrong with her is obviously the most

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<v Speaker 2>romantic statement you can make about your deceased wife.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that just tells me that if he was so

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<v Speaker 1>in love with her, he would have said, I'm madly

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<v Speaker 1>in love with her. This is the woman that I

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<v Speaker 1>want to make it work with. The fact that there's

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<v Speaker 1>nothing wrong with her is telling us a lot with

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<v Speaker 1>while he's saying very little. And you said it was

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<v Speaker 1>fourteen years that they were together. Yes, that's a really

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<v Speaker 1>long time. They're only thirty three. They've been together since

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<v Speaker 1>they're nineteen years old, so you can imagine that a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of their youth was spent as a couple together.

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<v Speaker 1>And I don't know what Larry may or may not

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<v Speaker 1>have felt like he missed out on. Obviously he felt

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<v Speaker 1>like he missed out on some stuff because he's out

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<v Speaker 1>there conducting extramarital affairs. And I think that at thirty three,

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<v Speaker 1>you're an adult and you should know better, and if

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<v Speaker 1>you don't want to be in a marriage, then you

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<v Speaker 1>should leave. You shouldn't continue to cheat on your wife

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<v Speaker 1>and commit infidelities. The behavior lacks integrity. So I'm beginning

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<v Speaker 1>to understand why authorities would have looked at Larry and

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<v Speaker 1>been like, Okay, he's got all of these other women.

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<v Speaker 1>They've been together for fourteen years. He's saying that there's

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<v Speaker 1>nothing wrong with her while he's being interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries.

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<v Speaker 1>Not she was a perfect woman. She was loving, she

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<v Speaker 1>was caring, she was smart, she was beautiful, she lit

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<v Speaker 1>up a room. He could have said a myriad of things,

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<v Speaker 1>none of which he said. So, yeah, it's not really

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<v Speaker 1>looking great for Larry thus far. But as we know,

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<v Speaker 1>just because he's a horrible husband doesn't mean we need

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<v Speaker 1>to indict him for murder. You can be guilty of

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<v Speaker 1>being a dirt bag while still not being a murderer.

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<v Speaker 2>And this is all just speculation on my part because

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know much about their children, But I've always wondered,

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<v Speaker 2>since they got married at the age of nineteen if

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<v Speaker 2>this might have been because she was already pregnant at

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<v Speaker 2>that point, and maybe he felt, well, I have to

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<v Speaker 2>marry her because she's having my even though I'm not ready,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's why he spent all this time like cheating

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<v Speaker 2>on or throughout the course of her marriage. And I

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<v Speaker 2>know a lot of people who watch the Unsolved Mystery

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<v Speaker 2>segment look at Larry. They don't think he's particularly attractive

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<v Speaker 2>or charming, so they think, how did this guy manage

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<v Speaker 2>to find four different women to cheat on through the

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<v Speaker 2>course of his marriage.

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<v Speaker 1>It's always a shocker, isn't it when you think, like,

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<v Speaker 1>how somebody who is just completely mid or like so average,

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<v Speaker 1>how do they manage to ensnare all of these women?

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<v Speaker 1>And part of me has to believe that the women

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<v Speaker 1>that are having affairs with him are looking for a

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<v Speaker 1>guy that is somewhat unavailable, because if you want it

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00:11:36.840 --> 00:11:39.840
<v Speaker 1>to be, it's like a woman who is attracted to

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<v Speaker 1>a man in prison. And there's some women who have

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<v Speaker 1>hypristophelia where it's a thing where they're attracted to the

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00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:50.399
<v Speaker 1>violence of the danger. But in some cases, I think

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<v Speaker 1>when you see like women who are really into church,

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00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:54.960
<v Speaker 1>like we just covered, and in a case right where

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<v Speaker 1>two different women you are going for the same guy,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's it's questionable, but you think, like a guy

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<v Speaker 1>that isn't completely available to them because maybe they aren't

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<v Speaker 1>ready or willing to give all of themselves in a relationship,

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<v Speaker 1>and so they choose somebody like Larry knowing that he's

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<v Speaker 1>not going to commit to them. And maybe that's a

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<v Speaker 1>subconscious level, Maybe consciously they're saying, yes, leave your wife.

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<v Speaker 1>But the reality is if he ever actually did. Maybe

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<v Speaker 1>the women wouldn't know what to do with that because

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<v Speaker 1>Larry isn't exactly the dream guy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. It makes me wonder if a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these husbands interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries do have a more

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00:12:33.360 --> 00:12:36.200
<v Speaker 2>charming side when they're off camera, but when they get

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<v Speaker 2>in front and speak on national television, they just can't

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00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:42.000
<v Speaker 2>help but look like a jerk. After they had their dinner,

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00:12:42.159 --> 00:12:44.759
<v Speaker 2>Larry and Debbie went to the Knife River Marina to

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00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:47.360
<v Speaker 2>take their boat out on the lake for a romantic cruise.

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00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:50.240
<v Speaker 2>Larry was a major boating and diving enthusiasts and he

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00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:52.639
<v Speaker 2>had a twenty two foot cabin cruiser known as the

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00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:54.759
<v Speaker 2>Jenny Lee, and they were going to go out and

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00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:56.840
<v Speaker 2>listen to music and look at the lights from the

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00:12:56.879 --> 00:12:59.360
<v Speaker 2>city in the distance. So now I'm going to tell

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00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:02.519
<v Speaker 2>Larry's events, and I can't vouch that these are one

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00:13:02.559 --> 00:13:04.799
<v Speaker 2>hundred percent true, but I'm going to give you what

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00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.159
<v Speaker 2>he said happened. He claimed that around nine pm, when

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00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:10.639
<v Speaker 2>they were about a mile off shore, the boat started

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00:13:10.679 --> 00:13:12.480
<v Speaker 2>to take on water, and when he took off the

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00:13:12.519 --> 00:13:14.480
<v Speaker 2>engine cover, he noticed that there was a leak in

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00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:17.679
<v Speaker 2>the water jacket. As the result of a bolt coming loose,

249
00:13:18.120 --> 00:13:20.120
<v Speaker 2>so he decided to turn the engine off and he

250
00:13:20.159 --> 00:13:22.320
<v Speaker 2>was able to repair the leak, but the problem was

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00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:25.080
<v Speaker 2>that the engine would not start again, presumably because it

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00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.679
<v Speaker 2>had been flooded. So Larry tried to use the bilge

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00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:29.759
<v Speaker 2>pump to remove the water because it was now on

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00:13:29.799 --> 00:13:32.639
<v Speaker 2>the floor, but it made a loud sucking noise, which

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00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.240
<v Speaker 2>he claimed made Debbi think that the pump was pulling

256
00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:38.120
<v Speaker 2>the floor loose, so she started to panic and become

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00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:41.440
<v Speaker 2>hysterical because she could not actually swim and had a

258
00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.320
<v Speaker 2>fear of the water, so she pretty much told Larry

259
00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:47.200
<v Speaker 2>that she needed to leave the boat immediately because there

260
00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:50.919
<v Speaker 2>had actually been an incident the previous summer where Larry

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00:13:51.000 --> 00:13:53.559
<v Speaker 2>had taken the Jenny Lee out on Lake Superior with

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00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.600
<v Speaker 2>his two daughters and it struck a reef and actually

263
00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:59.559
<v Speaker 2>sank to the bottom of the lake. But on that occasion,

264
00:13:59.639 --> 00:14:02.600
<v Speaker 2>Larry he was able to load his two daughters onto

265
00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.679
<v Speaker 2>a life raft and tow them safely to shore. Because

266
00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:07.799
<v Speaker 2>he put on a wetsuit or a dry suit, and

267
00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:09.879
<v Speaker 2>because he was a skilled swimmer, he was able to

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00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:12.279
<v Speaker 2>rescue them. So he told Debbie that he was going

269
00:14:12.320 --> 00:14:13.519
<v Speaker 2>to do the exact same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, this is interesting. So was this just a complete

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00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:21.399
<v Speaker 1>act of God with the Jenny Lee the first time

272
00:14:21.799 --> 00:14:24.960
<v Speaker 1>and he rescued his daughters, And did Larry then get

273
00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.039
<v Speaker 1>the idea for how he could kill his wife if

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00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:32.639
<v Speaker 1>it was a similar situation. She is like afraid of

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00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.360
<v Speaker 1>the water in what is seeming like a parallel to

276
00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:40.320
<v Speaker 1>like the Natalie Wood case where she's terrified of drowning.

277
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:43.320
<v Speaker 1>This is another incident that's happening on the boat, and

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00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.879
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure after what happened with the daughters, she probably

279
00:14:45.960 --> 00:14:48.840
<v Speaker 1>was scared. And I don't know what the temperature would

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00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.159
<v Speaker 1>have been like, but I do know that on lakes

281
00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:55.440
<v Speaker 1>in May it can be really frigid. It can take

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00:14:55.480 --> 00:14:58.279
<v Speaker 1>intill August for lakes to warm up, and even then

283
00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:01.960
<v Speaker 1>they can be really cold to swim in. So even

284
00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:04.200
<v Speaker 1>though it sounds like it should be warm because it's May,

285
00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.480
<v Speaker 1>it makes sense that you could die of hypothermia. Because

286
00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:09.879
<v Speaker 1>my birthday is in May, and when I was a kid,

287
00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:12.919
<v Speaker 1>I would always go swimming around my birthday in the

288
00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.919
<v Speaker 1>lake and I remember it just being so cold it

289
00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:20.320
<v Speaker 1>would feel like a polar bear did So I'm really

290
00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:23.440
<v Speaker 1>interested if he got the idea from this, or if

291
00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:27.320
<v Speaker 1>these are just two completely separate events and he had

292
00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.879
<v Speaker 1>the misfortune of having two accidents with his boat in

293
00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:32.480
<v Speaker 1>a pretty small window of time.

294
00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the authorities would push that theory forward, that the

295
00:15:36.639 --> 00:15:38.879
<v Speaker 2>incident with his daughter, that he may have used it

296
00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:41.519
<v Speaker 2>as inspiration if he wanted to kill his wife, feeling

297
00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:43.799
<v Speaker 2>that well, if I've repaired the boat, if I take

298
00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.360
<v Speaker 2>her out there again and there's more problems, They're just

299
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>going to find it believable that the boat sank on

300
00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.000
<v Speaker 2>its own and had all these problems, and I'll be

301
00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:53.440
<v Speaker 2>completely in the clear. But at the same time, it

302
00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:56.080
<v Speaker 2>doesn't really say much for his judgment that he would

303
00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:58.600
<v Speaker 2>have this incident, this close call with his daughters and

304
00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:00.600
<v Speaker 2>then try to take out his wife again in the

305
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:03.360
<v Speaker 2>same boat, even though she could not swim and had

306
00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:05.679
<v Speaker 2>more of a fear of water than his daughters did.

307
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.440
<v Speaker 2>So it's either way, it's not a situation that makes

308
00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:09.639
<v Speaker 2>him look very good.

309
00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.759
<v Speaker 1>This is almost giving me like the freedom to John

310
00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:15.480
<v Speaker 1>Paul Farrell, John Paul Russell type of vibes.

311
00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, the whole thing where they stage sinking a

312
00:16:18.639 --> 00:16:20.919
<v Speaker 2>boat even though they probably just kept the boat hidden

313
00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:25.759
<v Speaker 2>somewhere and pretended they drowned. So Larry's story is that

314
00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:28.440
<v Speaker 2>he grabbed a life raft and inflated it will Debbie

315
00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.200
<v Speaker 2>put on a life jacket, and she also placed her purse,

316
00:16:31.320 --> 00:16:35.159
<v Speaker 2>valuables and Larry's shoes inside a gear bag, and Larry

317
00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.159
<v Speaker 2>then put on a dry suit. And in case you

318
00:16:37.159 --> 00:16:39.919
<v Speaker 2>they don't know, the key difference between wetsuits and dry

319
00:16:39.960 --> 00:16:42.919
<v Speaker 2>suits is that wetsuits will absorb a bit of water,

320
00:16:42.960 --> 00:16:46.200
<v Speaker 2>but dry suits will completely shield your body and prevent

321
00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:48.879
<v Speaker 2>you from getting any water, which you will definitely need

322
00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:50.799
<v Speaker 2>on a lake in the middle of the night in

323
00:16:50.840 --> 00:16:53.399
<v Speaker 2>Minnesota in May, so I can understand when he put

324
00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:56.120
<v Speaker 2>that on. But because he was a strong swimmer, his

325
00:16:56.200 --> 00:16:58.399
<v Speaker 2>plan was to jump in the water and pull Debbie

326
00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.360
<v Speaker 2>and the raft ashore all on his because the water's

327
00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:05.599
<v Speaker 2>temperature was only thirty seven degrees, so they went through

328
00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:08.119
<v Speaker 2>with this plan, but Larry told Debbie that when they

329
00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:10.279
<v Speaker 2>were far away from the boat that he started developing

330
00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:12.519
<v Speaker 2>cramps and he needed to get into the raft with

331
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.880
<v Speaker 2>her to have a break. But he said that when

332
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:18.039
<v Speaker 2>he attempted to climb inside the raft, had trouble supporting

333
00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:20.599
<v Speaker 2>both of their weights and started taking on waters, so

334
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Debby once again panicked and told Larry to remain in

335
00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:26.640
<v Speaker 2>the lake. And since he had not brought along any

336
00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:29.359
<v Speaker 2>diving gloves, his hands were very cold, so he started

337
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:31.880
<v Speaker 2>rubbing them together for warmth, but that caused him to

338
00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.599
<v Speaker 2>lose his grip on the raft and it started drifting

339
00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.400
<v Speaker 2>away from him. But as this was going on, Larry

340
00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:39.480
<v Speaker 2>said that he saw what appeared to be some lights

341
00:17:39.480 --> 00:17:42.279
<v Speaker 2>in the distance from a boat, so he yelled at Debbie,

342
00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:44.079
<v Speaker 2>just stay in the raft and I'm going to swim

343
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.200
<v Speaker 2>over to the boat and get help, and then we'll

344
00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:48.880
<v Speaker 2>return and pick you up. But Larry said that when

345
00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.440
<v Speaker 2>he swam back to the lights, he realized that, oh,

346
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I was actually looking at my own boat, that Jenny Lee,

347
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:57.319
<v Speaker 2>I was not actually looking at another boat. So I

348
00:17:57.359 --> 00:17:59.400
<v Speaker 2>pretty much just wasted a bunch of time and got

349
00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:01.119
<v Speaker 2>myself back where I started.

350
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:06.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So part of this is sounding plausible, part of

351
00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.599
<v Speaker 1>it sounding slightly implausible. But again, if it was a

352
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.440
<v Speaker 1>genuine event where this happened, I could understand where panic

353
00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.039
<v Speaker 1>would start to hit you. And I know how cold

354
00:18:16.079 --> 00:18:18.559
<v Speaker 1>your hands can get in a scenario where they're in

355
00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:21.720
<v Speaker 1>cold water, and like the drysuit. Sure that would be

356
00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:23.799
<v Speaker 1>really helpful, but it's not going to help your hands.

357
00:18:23.839 --> 00:18:27.000
<v Speaker 1>So it's possible that it could have played out the

358
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.079
<v Speaker 1>way that Larry's saying. But it's also possible that this

359
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.119
<v Speaker 1>could be subterfuge.

360
00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Exactly like I can see someone if they're in a

361
00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:37.039
<v Speaker 2>panic situation in the dark, in the freezing cold, that

362
00:18:37.440 --> 00:18:40.359
<v Speaker 2>they could see lights and then become disoriented and automatically

363
00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:42.599
<v Speaker 2>assume it's a different boat even though it's the same

364
00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.559
<v Speaker 2>location they were just at. But people are going to

365
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:48.759
<v Speaker 2>react strangely in those type of situations, so I could

366
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:51.640
<v Speaker 2>believe that he might have become confused. But once he

367
00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.799
<v Speaker 2>made it back to the boat, he sawt oh, I'm

368
00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:55.920
<v Speaker 2>going to try the engine again, and sure enough, this

369
00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.319
<v Speaker 2>time it actually wound up starting. So he claimed that

370
00:18:59.359 --> 00:19:02.119
<v Speaker 2>he fired off some flares to a signal debbie that

371
00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:04.759
<v Speaker 2>he was going to start searching for. But he said

372
00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:06.880
<v Speaker 2>that he went around the lake and could not find

373
00:19:07.000 --> 00:19:10.640
<v Speaker 2>the debbie or the raft anywhere after searching for several hours,

374
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:13.279
<v Speaker 2>so he decided to take the boat back to shore

375
00:19:13.359 --> 00:19:15.799
<v Speaker 2>and he went to a nearby motel to call for help.

376
00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:18.480
<v Speaker 2>So the Coastcard were notified and went out on the

377
00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:20.880
<v Speaker 2>Lake Superior. But even though they spent the rest of

378
00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:23.200
<v Speaker 2>the night searching for Debbie, they had no luck finding

379
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.400
<v Speaker 2>her or the raft, and it would be several more hours.

380
00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.799
<v Speaker 2>It would not be until four pm on the afternoon

381
00:19:28.839 --> 00:19:31.480
<v Speaker 2>of May the twelfth, which was nearly twenty four hours

382
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:34.359
<v Speaker 2>after they originally went on the lake, when a teenage

383
00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:37.279
<v Speaker 2>boy wound up finding Debbie's body washed up on shore

384
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:41.000
<v Speaker 2>near London Road, which was about seven miles southwest of

385
00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:44.359
<v Speaker 2>the original search area. She was still wearing her life jacket,

386
00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.440
<v Speaker 2>but they determined that her cause of death was immerged

387
00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:50.759
<v Speaker 2>in hypothermia. So on the surface, this obviously doesn't look

388
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:53.440
<v Speaker 2>like a murder because there are no signs of foul

389
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:54.279
<v Speaker 2>play on her body.

390
00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.599
<v Speaker 1>No, but why was she not in the raft?

391
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Yep, And that's going to be one of the biggest

392
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:03.720
<v Speaker 2>in this story is that this raft was never actually found. So,

393
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:07.119
<v Speaker 2>as you can imagine, they start finding parts of Larry's

394
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:08.319
<v Speaker 2>story to be suspicious.

395
00:20:08.720 --> 00:20:11.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's fair, And like, what kind of raft was

396
00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.440
<v Speaker 1>this supposed to be? Just like a blow up life raft?

397
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:18.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much. So at first they thought that Debbie's

398
00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:21.079
<v Speaker 2>death was nothing more than a tragic accident, but the

399
00:20:21.119 --> 00:20:24.519
<v Speaker 2>authority started noticing some discrepancies in Larry's story, which I'm

400
00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:27.599
<v Speaker 2>going to share momentarily. But of course, once they started

401
00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:30.519
<v Speaker 2>looking into his background, they discovered that he had purchased

402
00:20:30.559 --> 00:20:33.920
<v Speaker 2>a life insurance policy on Debbi seven months earlier, which

403
00:20:34.000 --> 00:20:37.000
<v Speaker 2>was worth one hundred and eight thousand dollars. And at

404
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:40.519
<v Speaker 2>the time, Larry was also experiencing financial problems because, like

405
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:43.440
<v Speaker 2>I said, he had a passion for scuba diving and

406
00:20:43.599 --> 00:20:46.119
<v Speaker 2>had gone on a bunch of expeditions to search for

407
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:48.960
<v Speaker 2>shipwrecks at the bottom of Lake Superior. But because he

408
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.960
<v Speaker 2>never found anything, the hobby was very costly and it

409
00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:55.079
<v Speaker 2>wound up putting him into debts. So they started wondering

410
00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:56.680
<v Speaker 2>if he might have tried to find a way to

411
00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:59.359
<v Speaker 2>kill his wife in order to collect the insurance money

412
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.000
<v Speaker 2>in order to pay off his debts. And of course,

413
00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:04.680
<v Speaker 2>once they started lurking into his background and found out

414
00:21:04.680 --> 00:21:07.359
<v Speaker 2>that he had conducted a bunch of extramarital affairs, that

415
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:10.720
<v Speaker 2>started raising some more red flags, particularly since one of

416
00:21:10.759 --> 00:21:13.359
<v Speaker 2>these affairs have been going on up until the very

417
00:21:13.400 --> 00:21:17.160
<v Speaker 2>weekend before Debbie's death. So even though Larry had said

418
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.000
<v Speaker 2>that he wanted to get a fresh start and put

419
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:21.640
<v Speaker 2>an end to all his infidelity. It obviously didn't look

420
00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:24.440
<v Speaker 2>good that his wife found up dead only a few

421
00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.799
<v Speaker 2>days after he said that he was supposedly ending this affair.

422
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, if Larry did plan this, at least he

423
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.960
<v Speaker 1>had the sense to wait over a few months after

424
00:21:35.000 --> 00:21:38.039
<v Speaker 1>buying a life insurance policy. We see far too often

425
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:40.160
<v Speaker 1>when somebody buys one and then like a month later,

426
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:43.759
<v Speaker 1>the person is dead. Seven months isn't a huge chunk

427
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:47.880
<v Speaker 1>of time. And why would he need one hundred and

428
00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:51.920
<v Speaker 1>eight thousand dollars life insurance policy in nineteen eighty two,

429
00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.720
<v Speaker 1>so like, let's just say that would be roughly two

430
00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:59.839
<v Speaker 1>hundred and sixteen thousand dollars today. Why would he require

431
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:03.480
<v Speaker 1>on his wife and at the age of thirty three.

432
00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:06.880
<v Speaker 1>I know they've got children, and I know that you're

433
00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:10.440
<v Speaker 1>going to have expenses, but it seems a little bit excessive.

434
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:13.000
<v Speaker 1>And it also does seem to be in a pretty

435
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:15.160
<v Speaker 1>small window of time. I mean, it could all be

436
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.279
<v Speaker 1>by chance, but this affair being right up until the

437
00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:22.039
<v Speaker 1>weekend prior to this, then you're factoring in debts as well.

438
00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:25.039
<v Speaker 1>It's not really looking good for Larry. And I'm not

439
00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:26.519
<v Speaker 1>getting a good gut feeling.

440
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:28.960
<v Speaker 2>Well, now I'm going to talk about some of the

441
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:32.240
<v Speaker 2>discrepancies in his story, which made the police extra suspicious

442
00:22:32.720 --> 00:22:35.119
<v Speaker 2>because he was such an expert on boating. They thought

443
00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:37.319
<v Speaker 2>it was very odd and out of character that he

444
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.680
<v Speaker 2>would decide to abandon the boat so quickly and even

445
00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.160
<v Speaker 2>go into the life raft to begin with, because if

446
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:44.960
<v Speaker 2>there was someone who knew how to fix a boat

447
00:22:45.000 --> 00:22:47.640
<v Speaker 2>that was experiencing mechanical problems, it should have been him.

448
00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.119
<v Speaker 2>So when the police boarded the Jenny Lee and inspected it,

449
00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:53.480
<v Speaker 2>they did discover a minor leak in the engine and

450
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:55.480
<v Speaker 2>a few inches of water in the hull, but they

451
00:22:55.519 --> 00:22:58.279
<v Speaker 2>found no indication that the boat had been any danger

452
00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:01.319
<v Speaker 2>of sinking because the bills pump could have easily pumped

453
00:23:01.319 --> 00:23:05.000
<v Speaker 2>out the remaining water. Well, Larry's rationale for that is that, yes,

454
00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:06.920
<v Speaker 2>if I had been out on the boat alone, I

455
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.240
<v Speaker 2>probably wouldn't have gone into the raft. I would have

456
00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:11.920
<v Speaker 2>been able to handle the situation. But he says he

457
00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.279
<v Speaker 2>was pretty much trying to appease Debbie because she was

458
00:23:14.319 --> 00:23:16.480
<v Speaker 2>just going into a major panic and pretty much said,

459
00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:18.319
<v Speaker 2>I have to get off this boat right now. Is

460
00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:20.799
<v Speaker 2>going to sync, which is why he made the decision

461
00:23:20.839 --> 00:23:22.720
<v Speaker 2>to put her in the raft and try to drag

462
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:24.960
<v Speaker 2>her to shore. So you can interpret this in a

463
00:23:25.039 --> 00:23:27.400
<v Speaker 2>number of different ways that maybe this sounds kind of

464
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.000
<v Speaker 2>convenient that he just overreacted like this, But at the

465
00:23:30.039 --> 00:23:32.799
<v Speaker 2>same time, if your wife is having a panic attack,

466
00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:34.880
<v Speaker 2>you may do things you ordinarily wouldn't do.

467
00:23:35.799 --> 00:23:38.799
<v Speaker 1>This is very true. It could go either way, and

468
00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:41.119
<v Speaker 1>I think it depends on how you want to interpret it,

469
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:44.240
<v Speaker 1>and it kind of depends on how you're the vibe

470
00:23:44.240 --> 00:23:46.960
<v Speaker 1>that you're getting from Larry, right, are you getting a

471
00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.359
<v Speaker 1>vibe from him that there's a potential that this could

472
00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:53.680
<v Speaker 1>have been an accident? And we don't know as much

473
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:57.079
<v Speaker 1>about Debbie as we do about Larry, and more so

474
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:01.640
<v Speaker 1>how Larry reacts in this situation. I don't want to

475
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.839
<v Speaker 1>judge it fully yet, but I am seeing a lot

476
00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:08.559
<v Speaker 1>of red flags and I'm not judging the behavior that

477
00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.799
<v Speaker 1>he's saying, like you know, the swimming away from the vessel,

478
00:24:12.000 --> 00:24:15.480
<v Speaker 1>if Debbie was indeed having a panic attack. It's more

479
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:17.599
<v Speaker 1>of the fact that we are not finding this life

480
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:20.680
<v Speaker 1>raft after the fact, Like what are the chances that

481
00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:23.720
<v Speaker 1>the boat is going to sink? And then what the

482
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:26.599
<v Speaker 1>life raft sinks, or we're to believe that Debbie jumps

483
00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:28.880
<v Speaker 1>out of the life draft when she seems to be

484
00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:32.079
<v Speaker 1>very scared of the water because she can't swim. It's

485
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:34.359
<v Speaker 1>seeming a little improbable.

486
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:37.720
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And we're going to talk about later on how

487
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:39.880
<v Speaker 2>Larry would try to come up with an excuse for

488
00:24:39.960 --> 00:24:42.680
<v Speaker 2>why the life raft wasn't found, which would only dig

489
00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:46.240
<v Speaker 2>himself a deeper hole and make the authorities more suspicious

490
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:48.279
<v Speaker 2>of him. But I'm going to talk now what I

491
00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:50.599
<v Speaker 2>think is one of the most troubling discrepancies, and it's

492
00:24:50.640 --> 00:24:53.160
<v Speaker 2>the timeline. Because Larry claimed that he went out on

493
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:55.799
<v Speaker 2>the boat sometime after nine pm and that's when they

494
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:59.279
<v Speaker 2>started having the problems with the water and the sinking,

495
00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:01.440
<v Speaker 2>like a short time time later. But the issue is

496
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:03.799
<v Speaker 2>that he did not actually call the coastguard for help

497
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:07.759
<v Speaker 2>until around two thirty am. So Larry tried to explain

498
00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.160
<v Speaker 2>this large window of time by claiming that after he

499
00:25:10.440 --> 00:25:12.440
<v Speaker 2>lost the grip on the raft and swam back to

500
00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:15.119
<v Speaker 2>the Jenny Lee and separate from Debbie, he was so

501
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.039
<v Speaker 2>exhausted when he climbed on board that he immediately passed

502
00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.000
<v Speaker 2>out and was out for a couple hours before he

503
00:25:21.079 --> 00:25:23.839
<v Speaker 2>woke up, and that's when he restarted the engine and

504
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:27.119
<v Speaker 2>discovered it was working again, and spent some time searching

505
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:29.519
<v Speaker 2>around the lake for Debbie before he made it back

506
00:25:29.519 --> 00:25:32.039
<v Speaker 2>to land and made the phone call. But five and

507
00:25:32.039 --> 00:25:34.839
<v Speaker 2>a half hours does seem like an awful lot of time,

508
00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:37.200
<v Speaker 2>and it just seems weird that he would just happen

509
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:39.400
<v Speaker 2>to pass out the moment he gets back to the boat,

510
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.599
<v Speaker 2>and then when he wakes up, the engine would just

511
00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:42.960
<v Speaker 2>happen to start working again.

512
00:25:43.839 --> 00:25:47.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's not really sounding all that likely, and it's

513
00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:49.839
<v Speaker 1>just like another strike against Larry in my opinion.

514
00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's one of the big things is that

515
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:54.599
<v Speaker 2>he would change his story a lot when speaking to

516
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.000
<v Speaker 2>the authorities, because I'm not even sure he gave this

517
00:25:57.119 --> 00:26:00.279
<v Speaker 2>story about passing out for all these hours until he

518
00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:02.960
<v Speaker 2>was told about the discrepancy and the call to the

519
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:06.200
<v Speaker 2>Coastguard not coming in until two thirty am, five and

520
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:09.400
<v Speaker 2>a half hours after the sinking started. So in his

521
00:26:09.440 --> 00:26:13.000
<v Speaker 2>original statement, Larry denied having brought any scuba gear on

522
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:15.839
<v Speaker 2>board the Jenny Lee until a witness came forward and

523
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:18.359
<v Speaker 2>claimed that they had been at the Knife Point Marine

524
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:21.519
<v Speaker 2>ad around seven thirty pm that night, and saw Larry

525
00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.640
<v Speaker 2>loading a scuba tank onto the boat shortly before he

526
00:26:24.680 --> 00:26:27.119
<v Speaker 2>and Debbie went out on the water. So when Larry's

527
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.000
<v Speaker 2>confronted about this, he changed his story and said that, oh, yes,

528
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.160
<v Speaker 2>I did bring a scuba tank along with them, and

529
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:34.920
<v Speaker 2>it placed it in the life raft with Debbie before

530
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:36.799
<v Speaker 2>they left the boat in case they needed it for

531
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:40.359
<v Speaker 2>an emergency. So his logic is that the scuba gear

532
00:26:40.519 --> 00:26:43.240
<v Speaker 2>just disappeared when Debbie fell out of the raft. But

533
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:45.839
<v Speaker 2>of course the raft, the scuba tank, and also the

534
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:49.279
<v Speaker 2>gear bag containing Debbie's purse and Larry's shoes just could

535
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.599
<v Speaker 2>not be found, and the coast Guard, even though they

536
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.759
<v Speaker 2>performed an extensive search for these items, said that, yeah,

537
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.599
<v Speaker 2>an inflatable life raft is very unlikely to sink to

538
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.319
<v Speaker 2>the bottom and never be found. So I think if

539
00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:02.359
<v Speaker 2>it had been in the area, we would have found it,

540
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:04.480
<v Speaker 2>and we would have found the scuba gear somewhere.

541
00:27:05.279 --> 00:27:07.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's not really looking very good for Larry that

542
00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:11.200
<v Speaker 1>there were to believe that this inflatable life raft just

543
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:15.640
<v Speaker 1>what like disappears. It's not something heavy like metal, where

544
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:18.000
<v Speaker 1>you know, if it's it could sink to the bottom,

545
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:21.279
<v Speaker 1>it's going to be pretty buoyant even if deflated, I

546
00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:23.960
<v Speaker 1>would think, and especially when the coast guard is saying

547
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:27.240
<v Speaker 1>that like this is incredibly atypical that this would deflate

548
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:29.839
<v Speaker 1>and then sink to the bottom, it seems to be

549
00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.079
<v Speaker 1>adding up with Larry. So I'm starting to understand why

550
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:36.960
<v Speaker 1>the authorities were looking at him and going ooh, maybe

551
00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:37.920
<v Speaker 1>he did this to Debbie.

552
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:42.079
<v Speaker 2>And now I'm going to talk about the weird discrepancy

553
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:44.799
<v Speaker 2>with the life raft, because a raft was found on

554
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:47.039
<v Speaker 2>the Jenny Lee, but the issue was is that it

555
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:50.920
<v Speaker 2>had five cuts and punctures on it. And according to Larry,

556
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:53.799
<v Speaker 2>he always kept two life rafts aboard the boat and

557
00:27:53.920 --> 00:27:56.519
<v Speaker 2>had at first attempted to inflate this one, but after

558
00:27:56.599 --> 00:27:58.960
<v Speaker 2>noticing there were some holes in it, he decided to

559
00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:01.240
<v Speaker 2>inflate the second one, and this was the one that

560
00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:04.400
<v Speaker 2>Debbie went into when they went into the water. Larry

561
00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.640
<v Speaker 2>initially denied that the raft found on the boat had

562
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:09.279
<v Speaker 2>ever been in the lake, but investigators noticed that there

563
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:12.359
<v Speaker 2>were several gallons of water in it, so once again

564
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:15.200
<v Speaker 2>Larry changed his story and now claimed that he had

565
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:17.400
<v Speaker 2>tossed the raft over the side into the lake when

566
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.480
<v Speaker 2>he discovered there were holes in it. But then when

567
00:28:19.480 --> 00:28:21.759
<v Speaker 2>he swam back to the Genni Lee, he decided to

568
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:24.759
<v Speaker 2>bring it back on board before he passed out. And

569
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.079
<v Speaker 2>you're giving off a reaction here like, oh, come.

570
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:29.000
<v Speaker 1>On, yeah, no you didn't, Larry.

571
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, nobody's going to be thinking that if they're going

572
00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:33.519
<v Speaker 2>to panicked the situation and say that, oh, my raft,

573
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:35.839
<v Speaker 2>which is completely useless, I'm going to bring that back

574
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:39.400
<v Speaker 2>on board. And the story only opened up another troubling

575
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:42.799
<v Speaker 2>discrepancy because the caps on the raft's air chambers were

576
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:46.359
<v Speaker 2>securely closed, so in order to have inflated the raft,

577
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:48.519
<v Speaker 2>like Larry said, he would have needed to open the

578
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:50.960
<v Speaker 2>air chambers, but they thought it was pretty odd that

579
00:28:51.000 --> 00:28:53.119
<v Speaker 2>he would go to the trouble of closing them again

580
00:28:53.440 --> 00:28:56.480
<v Speaker 2>before tossing the raft over the side.

581
00:28:56.599 --> 00:28:59.559
<v Speaker 1>None of this makes sense, like, none of it whatsoever,

582
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:03.519
<v Speaker 1>especially the part where he swims back to the Jenny Lee.

583
00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.359
<v Speaker 1>He's freezing, his hands are ice cold. He thinks he

584
00:29:07.440 --> 00:29:11.400
<v Speaker 1>sees lights, he's swimming towards those lights. He realizes it's

585
00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.880
<v Speaker 1>the Jenny Lee. I'm back where I started. Oh, there's

586
00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:17.200
<v Speaker 1>the LFE raft. Why don't I toss it back in

587
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:19.559
<v Speaker 1>the boat? Like, I don't think that's going to be

588
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:21.799
<v Speaker 1>top of mind or a priority. Larry.

589
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.359
<v Speaker 2>Yes, so I'm thinking maybe that the wheels are spinning

590
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:28.240
<v Speaker 2>and the pieces of the puzzle are starting to come

591
00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:31.119
<v Speaker 2>together here. But that's the exact thing that happened. The

592
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:34.240
<v Speaker 2>authorities because they noticed that the five cuts and punctures

593
00:29:34.240 --> 00:29:36.759
<v Speaker 2>on the raft were all located at the bottom and

594
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:39.319
<v Speaker 2>it severed both of the chambers, which made them think

595
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:42.279
<v Speaker 2>that these cuts have been made intentionally while the raft

596
00:29:42.359 --> 00:29:45.519
<v Speaker 2>was already fully inflated. And since they could not find

597
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:48.440
<v Speaker 2>this second life raft that Larry said he had anywhere

598
00:29:48.440 --> 00:29:52.079
<v Speaker 2>on Lake Superior, they began to formulate a theory that yes,

599
00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:54.839
<v Speaker 2>Larry had taken her out on the raft in the

600
00:29:54.839 --> 00:29:57.359
<v Speaker 2>middle of Lake Superior, but then went underneath while he

601
00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.279
<v Speaker 2>was in his scuba gear in order to puncture it,

602
00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:02.240
<v Speaker 2>and then Debbie wound up falling into the water and

603
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:05.119
<v Speaker 2>this is why she died of hypothermia. And then, in

604
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:08.519
<v Speaker 2>order to have this cover story, Larry brought the punctured

605
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.240
<v Speaker 2>raft back to the boat with them. But they pretty

606
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.160
<v Speaker 2>much figured out that this was not an unfortunate series

607
00:30:14.200 --> 00:30:17.200
<v Speaker 2>of events a tragic accident. They thought this was an

608
00:30:17.240 --> 00:30:19.960
<v Speaker 2>elaborate murder plot. In which Larry arranged things so that

609
00:30:20.119 --> 00:30:22.359
<v Speaker 2>his wife would go into the freezing water or die

610
00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.359
<v Speaker 2>of hypothermia and he could pass it off as an accident.

611
00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:28.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think that I'm starting to side with authorities here,

612
00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:32.200
<v Speaker 1>especially when we're looking at the missing raft. We've got

613
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:34.839
<v Speaker 1>missing scuba gear, scuba gear he didn't even talk about.

614
00:30:34.880 --> 00:30:37.680
<v Speaker 1>We've got this huge chunk of missing time where he

615
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:40.559
<v Speaker 1>then adds that he was just like passed out. None

616
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:43.640
<v Speaker 1>of this seems to add up. And I'm just not

617
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:46.359
<v Speaker 1>believing for a second that what we've got punctures in

618
00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:49.359
<v Speaker 1>the one life raft that we found on the boat

619
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.119
<v Speaker 1>on the general le that he supposedly put back in,

620
00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:55.519
<v Speaker 1>and then there's a whole other life raft that maybe

621
00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:58.240
<v Speaker 1>there's punctures in that too, or were to believe that

622
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:01.519
<v Speaker 1>Debbie vacated the life raft for some reason. I don't

623
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:04.680
<v Speaker 1>buy any of it. It sounds so so suspicious.

624
00:31:05.599 --> 00:31:07.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, it's kind of a thing where the

625
00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:09.880
<v Speaker 2>authorities are having red flags. But I don't know if

626
00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:12.720
<v Speaker 2>they've ever like tried a case like this before where

627
00:31:13.000 --> 00:31:15.759
<v Speaker 2>a husband has murdered his wife through a hypothermia, but

628
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:18.039
<v Speaker 2>they thought that they could convince a jury, so in

629
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:21.200
<v Speaker 2>April of nineteen eighty three, they presented the case against

630
00:31:21.240 --> 00:31:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Larry to a grand jury and he was formally indicted

631
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.079
<v Speaker 2>with first degree murder. So Larry would go on trial

632
00:31:27.079 --> 00:31:29.480
<v Speaker 2>in October of that year, and the case was presented

633
00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.960
<v Speaker 2>by Saint Louis County attorney John DeSanto, And when he

634
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:35.480
<v Speaker 2>was interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries years later, he gave a

635
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:38.119
<v Speaker 2>very famous line where he said, quote, I don't think

636
00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:41.160
<v Speaker 2>this story is appropriate for Unsolved Mysteries because this is

637
00:31:41.160 --> 00:31:44.319
<v Speaker 2>simply not an unsolved mystery end quote. So I wonder

638
00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:46.359
<v Speaker 2>if he would say that about our podcasts, saying this

639
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:49.119
<v Speaker 2>story is not appropriate for the Path with Chili because

640
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:52.359
<v Speaker 2>the path did not go Chili, and quote.

641
00:31:52.160 --> 00:31:54.720
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I guess you could interpret it like that.

642
00:31:55.440 --> 00:31:58.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I know that John DeSanto. Some Unsolved Mysteries fans

643
00:31:58.400 --> 00:32:00.680
<v Speaker 2>don't like him because they think he comes across as

644
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:03.480
<v Speaker 2>arrogantly when he says that. But when you look at

645
00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:05.799
<v Speaker 2>like how the trial plays out, he does make a

646
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:08.920
<v Speaker 2>lot of valid points and does present a very convincing

647
00:32:09.000 --> 00:32:13.160
<v Speaker 2>case to the jury. So even if Larry was wrongly convicted,

648
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:16.240
<v Speaker 2>you can't really fault DeSanto because I think he legitimately

649
00:32:16.279 --> 00:32:18.720
<v Speaker 2>believed that Larry was a murderer and was going to

650
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:20.960
<v Speaker 2>make sure he had a very solid case before he

651
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.920
<v Speaker 2>presented it at trial. So the prosecution's theory was that

652
00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Larry had dreamed up a plot to murder his wife

653
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:29.839
<v Speaker 2>and make her death look like an accident because he

654
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:33.079
<v Speaker 2>wanted to escape an unhappy marriage and cash in on

655
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:36.119
<v Speaker 2>Debbie's life insurance policy in order to pay off his debts.

656
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.279
<v Speaker 2>And they would get testimony from two of the women

657
00:32:39.319 --> 00:32:43.200
<v Speaker 2>that Larry had conducted affairs with, who said that he

658
00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:45.759
<v Speaker 2>often complained about his wife a lot, saying that he

659
00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:48.799
<v Speaker 2>would wind that Debbie was overweight, she spent too much money,

660
00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:51.839
<v Speaker 2>it was also a bad housekeeper. In fact, shortly before

661
00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:55.000
<v Speaker 2>Debbie's death, Larry had actually contacted both of these women

662
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.559
<v Speaker 2>and told them that if they were questioned by police,

663
00:32:57.759 --> 00:32:59.480
<v Speaker 2>he wanted them to just say that they were nothing

664
00:32:59.519 --> 00:33:02.359
<v Speaker 2>more than free and that they hadn't had actual affairs.

665
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:07.319
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Larry, like, this isn't gonna fly, So it's just

666
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.119
<v Speaker 1>giving me a little bit of like Scott Peterson energy too,

667
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:12.880
<v Speaker 1>where he had the whole affair with Aberfry and tried

668
00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:16.400
<v Speaker 1>to downplay it. But here we have multiple affairs, and

669
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:20.880
<v Speaker 1>it's going right up until basically this happens with Debbie.

670
00:33:21.200 --> 00:33:24.200
<v Speaker 1>So it doesn't look good for Larry, especially when we're

671
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:27.720
<v Speaker 1>factoring in the debt and the life insurance policy and

672
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:31.880
<v Speaker 1>his ever changing story. I can understand and appreciate how

673
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:35.279
<v Speaker 1>this would be a very difficult case to try, because

674
00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.640
<v Speaker 1>it's hard to prove that somebody's been murdered through hypothermia.

675
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:42.640
<v Speaker 1>I think it's more looking at his inconsistent story and

676
00:33:42.759 --> 00:33:47.279
<v Speaker 1>all of these different variables or stressors in his life

677
00:33:47.359 --> 00:33:51.119
<v Speaker 1>that could push him towards murdering his wife. I mean,

678
00:33:51.240 --> 00:33:54.720
<v Speaker 1>love and money. We've got both motivators here. And then

679
00:33:55.000 --> 00:33:57.799
<v Speaker 1>when we also look at the way that he talked

680
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:01.559
<v Speaker 1>about Debbie and that unsolved mysteries inter saying there's nothing

681
00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:05.119
<v Speaker 1>wrong with her, that tells us a lot. He's not

682
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.519
<v Speaker 1>telling us what's right with her. He's just saying there's

683
00:34:07.640 --> 00:34:12.039
<v Speaker 1>like nothing wrong with her. It's like saying, oh, you know,

684
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:14.360
<v Speaker 1>like there's nothing wrong with Brussels sprouts. I just like

685
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:17.880
<v Speaker 1>don't like them. You know, it's not something that you're

686
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:21.760
<v Speaker 1>when you're speaking warmly about something or someone, you don't

687
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:23.280
<v Speaker 1>say there's nothing wrong with it.

688
00:34:24.679 --> 00:34:27.119
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean, I have seen other suspected husbands who

689
00:34:27.159 --> 00:34:29.599
<v Speaker 2>have at least put forward the facade about how much

690
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:31.800
<v Speaker 2>they loved that they're missing a murdered wife, and even

691
00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:33.840
<v Speaker 2>if you don't believe them, at least they're trying and

692
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:36.840
<v Speaker 2>saying glowing things. Whereas Larry's like, well, she was okay,

693
00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:39.000
<v Speaker 2>there was nothing wrong with her. But even though a

694
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:42.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of these mistresses of his testified that he constantly

695
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:44.079
<v Speaker 2>complained about all the things that were wrong with her.

696
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:48.000
<v Speaker 2>So one of the things that Larry's defenders bringing up

697
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:50.760
<v Speaker 2>is that this would have been an incredibly difficult murder

698
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.159
<v Speaker 2>plot to pull off, because swimming out in that freezing

699
00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:56.000
<v Speaker 2>cold water in the middle of the night to try

700
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:58.719
<v Speaker 2>to murder your wife is a huge risk where he

701
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:01.719
<v Speaker 2>could have very well wound up of hypothermia himself. But

702
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:04.800
<v Speaker 2>the thing that was unique about Larry is that he

703
00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:08.440
<v Speaker 2>was incredibly passionate about scuba diving, and he dove in

704
00:35:08.519 --> 00:35:12.039
<v Speaker 2>Lake Superior an average of forty times per year. So

705
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.679
<v Speaker 2>the prosecution argued that this hobby would have allowed him

706
00:35:15.719 --> 00:35:18.800
<v Speaker 2>to acquire quite a bit of knowledge of immersion hypothermia

707
00:35:19.119 --> 00:35:20.960
<v Speaker 2>and try to dream up a way to kill his

708
00:35:21.000 --> 00:35:24.400
<v Speaker 2>wife in such a fashion without causing any harm to himself.

709
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:27.320
<v Speaker 2>So the theory that was presented at trial is that

710
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Larry took Debbie out onto the lake and tricked her

711
00:35:29.920 --> 00:35:32.119
<v Speaker 2>into getting in the life raft by telling her that

712
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the boat was sinking, even though there was nothing really

713
00:35:34.960 --> 00:35:38.039
<v Speaker 2>seriously wrong with it, but he could push forward this

714
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:40.519
<v Speaker 2>scenario that I'm going to drag the raft to shore

715
00:35:40.559 --> 00:35:42.800
<v Speaker 2>with you in it, because he had done the exact

716
00:35:42.800 --> 00:35:45.920
<v Speaker 2>same thing with his daughters when the boat legitimately had

717
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:49.280
<v Speaker 2>trouble the previous summer. So Larry then put on his

718
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.199
<v Speaker 2>scuba gear, which he claimed he never brought initially, and

719
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.199
<v Speaker 2>then dragged Debbie and the raft a great distance away

720
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:58.239
<v Speaker 2>from the Jenny Lee before he decided to swim underwater

721
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:01.360
<v Speaker 2>and slash the bottom wad the knife, severing the air

722
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:04.239
<v Speaker 2>chambers and as a result, the raft wound up the

723
00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:07.039
<v Speaker 2>plating and Debbie was in the freezing water, where she

724
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:11.159
<v Speaker 2>eventually succumbed to hypothermia. So Larry then dragged this to

725
00:36:11.199 --> 00:36:13.639
<v Speaker 2>flate a raft back to the Jenny Lee and concocted

726
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.239
<v Speaker 2>a fake story to feed you to the authorities, and

727
00:36:16.280 --> 00:36:18.280
<v Speaker 2>then he went back to shore and called for help,

728
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:20.800
<v Speaker 2>and while this was going on, Larry was wearing a

729
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:23.199
<v Speaker 2>dry suit, which would have allowed him to swim in

730
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:25.840
<v Speaker 2>this thirty seven degree water for an extended period of

731
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:30.239
<v Speaker 2>time without developing hypothermia. So it seems like a clever

732
00:36:30.360 --> 00:36:32.639
<v Speaker 2>murder plot that you would find in a work of fiction.

733
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:35.679
<v Speaker 2>But the problem is is that Larry didn't account for everything,

734
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:38.840
<v Speaker 2>and that's why all these holes started emerging in his story.

735
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:41.679
<v Speaker 1>I think it is a really clever plot because it's

736
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:45.480
<v Speaker 1>hard to prove. But like you said, Larry didn't plan

737
00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:49.800
<v Speaker 1>everything to the last detail. His knowledge of forensic countermeasures

738
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:52.800
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen eighty two wasn't what it would be for

739
00:36:52.880 --> 00:36:56.719
<v Speaker 1>somebody today. You can imagine somebody today trying to do

740
00:36:56.840 --> 00:36:59.679
<v Speaker 1>this and like engaging the help of chat, GPT or

741
00:36:59.760 --> 00:37:03.599
<v Speaker 1>like yeah, or you know, scouring the insuranet, scouring the

742
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:08.079
<v Speaker 1>dark web, reading any type of forensic textbook. What people

743
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:12.199
<v Speaker 1>have access to today versus nineteen eighty two is astounding.

744
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:16.559
<v Speaker 1>So is it because Larry is just a horrible criminal

745
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:19.360
<v Speaker 1>or he isn't that intelligent. I think it's lack of

746
00:37:19.360 --> 00:37:23.320
<v Speaker 1>access to information and maybe not anticipating the way that

747
00:37:23.400 --> 00:37:26.480
<v Speaker 1>the investigation would be conducted and the types of questions

748
00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:30.440
<v Speaker 1>that would be asked, and I think he addressed most

749
00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:33.000
<v Speaker 1>of the things that he thought would be brought up,

750
00:37:33.159 --> 00:37:37.280
<v Speaker 1>but he didn't do that great of a job in explaining,

751
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:39.199
<v Speaker 1>and he just assumed that they would take his word

752
00:37:39.239 --> 00:37:41.480
<v Speaker 1>for it. But I also don't think that he thought,

753
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:44.320
<v Speaker 1>maybe they're going to dig up all this information about

754
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:48.480
<v Speaker 1>the affairs and the debt and the life insurance, and

755
00:37:49.079 --> 00:37:50.840
<v Speaker 1>they're going to have more questions for me, so I

756
00:37:50.880 --> 00:37:55.400
<v Speaker 1>better have this like airtight alibi slash story. And I

757
00:37:55.440 --> 00:37:58.519
<v Speaker 1>think that's where he fumbled. He really didn't get his

758
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:01.440
<v Speaker 1>ducks in a row with his story. Because of that,

759
00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:04.599
<v Speaker 1>he ended up having to evolve and change his story.

760
00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:06.840
<v Speaker 1>And that is one thing you learn in statement analysis

761
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:09.960
<v Speaker 1>about the truth is the truth doesn't change. You can

762
00:38:10.039 --> 00:38:12.960
<v Speaker 1>ask that same question a myriad of different ways. You

763
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:16.440
<v Speaker 1>can ask it ten different ways, and the answer will

764
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:19.559
<v Speaker 1>remain the same. The person might say it slightly differently,

765
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.800
<v Speaker 1>but if you actually look at what they're saying, it

766
00:38:22.840 --> 00:38:26.159
<v Speaker 1>doesn't evolve and it doesn't change. We're looking at deception

767
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 1>here with Larry's ever evolving story, and I do not

768
00:38:29.519 --> 00:38:31.760
<v Speaker 1>think that we can chalk it up to trauma. I

769
00:38:31.800 --> 00:38:34.880
<v Speaker 1>personally think that he got that inspiration from the boat

770
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:38.039
<v Speaker 1>sinking where he rescued his daughters the first time, and

771
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:40.840
<v Speaker 1>was like, this is going to be a good strategy.

772
00:38:40.920 --> 00:38:43.679
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to employ this and I'm going to murder

773
00:38:43.679 --> 00:38:44.079
<v Speaker 1>my wife.

774
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:47.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is the problem here is he probably just

775
00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:49.920
<v Speaker 2>assumed that it would be written off as an accident

776
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and he'd only have to tell the story once and

777
00:38:51.920 --> 00:38:54.159
<v Speaker 2>that would be it, because no one would be opening

778
00:38:54.159 --> 00:38:58.320
<v Speaker 2>a bahamicide investigation. But once the once they opened up

779
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:00.880
<v Speaker 2>these discrepancies, that's when he had to change a story

780
00:39:00.920 --> 00:39:03.400
<v Speaker 2>in order to account for them. And of course they

781
00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:05.719
<v Speaker 2>put a lot of the emphasis on this raft that

782
00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:07.880
<v Speaker 2>was found on the Jenny Lee with all the puncture

783
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.320
<v Speaker 2>marks in it, because obviously he can't say that this

784
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:12.719
<v Speaker 2>was the raft that Debbie used when she went out

785
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:15.039
<v Speaker 2>on the lake, because how you explain where the cuts

786
00:39:15.039 --> 00:39:18.039
<v Speaker 2>came from. That about brings an into part one of

787
00:39:18.079 --> 00:39:20.639
<v Speaker 2>our series about the death of Debbie Race. Join us

788
00:39:20.679 --> 00:39:22.000
<v Speaker 2>again next week for part two.

789
00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:24.800
<v Speaker 3>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

790
00:39:24.800 --> 00:39:26.280
<v Speaker 3>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

791
00:39:27.039 --> 00:39:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

792
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:33.199
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

793
00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:36.679
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

794
00:39:36.679 --> 00:39:39.519
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

795
00:39:39.559 --> 00:39:42.159
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars

796
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:46.239
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

797
00:39:46.280 --> 00:39:49.440
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

798
00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:52.280
<v Speaker 2>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to

799
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Patreon and if you join our highest tier tier three,

800
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:58.280
<v Speaker 2>the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer

801
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:02.920
<v Speaker 2>is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries,

802
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:06.159
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

803
00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.440
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

804
00:40:09.480 --> 00:40:12.840
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

805
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:16.000
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

806
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:19.480
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

807
00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.320
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

808
00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:25.119
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

809
00:40:25.159 --> 00:40:27.880
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

810
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:30.920
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

811
00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:31.719
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

812
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:33.440
<v Speaker 3>So I want to let you know a little bit

813
00:40:33.480 --> 00:40:36.360
<v Speaker 3>about the Jules and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

814
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:39.320
<v Speaker 3>free episodes of the Path Went chili. We've got our

815
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:42.159
<v Speaker 3>Path Went Chili mini's, which are always over an hour,

816
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:44.360
<v Speaker 3>so they're not very many, but they're just too short

817
00:40:44.440 --> 00:40:47.400
<v Speaker 3>to turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those,

818
00:40:47.559 --> 00:40:50.079
<v Speaker 3>so we hope you'll check out those patreons. We'll link

819
00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:51.119
<v Speaker 3>them in the show notes.

820
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:53.599
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

821
00:40:53.719 --> 00:40:56.039
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

822
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:58.440
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly

823
00:40:58.480 --> 00:41:01.199
<v Speaker 2>appreciate it. You can email us at the Pathwentchili at

824
00:41:01.280 --> 00:41:03.960
<v Speaker 2>gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at

825
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the Pathwin. So until next time, be sure to bundle

826
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:10.400
<v Speaker 2>up because cold trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

827
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:13.760
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy