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It is 24 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:00.799 Eating Club. 25 00:01:08.040 --> 00:01:11.480 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 26 00:01:11.560 --> 00:01:14.599 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:21.959 written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK Every 28 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:25.680 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:30.000 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 30 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:45.560 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening uncover the 31 00:01:45.640 --> 00:01:50.840 twisted tales that inspired the big screen's greatest screams. Which 32 00:01:50.920 --> 00:01:56.239 case of demonic possession inspired The Exorcist? What horrifying front 33 00:01:56.239 --> 00:02:00.599 page story generated the idea for a Nightmare on Elm Street? 34 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:04.760 Which film was based on the infamous skin wearing murderer. 35 00:02:04.959 --> 00:02:10.199 Ed Gain unearthed the terrifying and true tales behind some 36 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:13.800 of the scariest horror movies to ever haunt our screens, 37 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:18.080 including the Enfield poltergeist case that was retold in The 38 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:21.759 Conjuring two, and the serial killers who inspired Hannibal Lecter 39 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:26.680 in Silence of the Lambs. Behind the Horror dissects these 40 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:30.280 and other bizarre tales to reveal haunting, real life stories 41 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:35.759 of abduction, Disappearance, Murder, and Exorcism. The book that we're 42 00:02:35.759 --> 00:02:39.319 featuring this evening is Behind the Horror, True stories that 43 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:43.360 inspired horror movies, with my special guests, journalist, author, and 44 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:47.520 podcaster doctor Lee Meller. Welcome back to the program, and 45 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:50.159 thank you so much for this interview, Doctor Lee Meller. 46 00:02:51.599 --> 00:02:54.599 Hey, Dan, it's been so long. Well, I can't remember 47 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:56.439 the last time. I'm so thrilled to be back on 48 00:02:56.479 --> 00:02:56.840 the show. 49 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:00.319 It's a big thrill for me to have you since 50 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:03.560 you're a very very busy man writing and now with 51 00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:10.280 the fantastic podcast Murder was the case, Let's talk about 52 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:14.159 just what is covered in this book Behind the Horror. 53 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:17.800 If you like this, we could go through each of 54 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:20.479 the chapters that you have, and then you could just 55 00:03:21.000 --> 00:03:23.479 make a comment about it. We could discuss it briefly 56 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.599 because there are so many stories in this collection. 57 00:03:27.800 --> 00:03:31.199 So yeah, that'd be great. And I mean, I think 58 00:03:31.199 --> 00:03:34.319 the book came out a few months ago and I 59 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.240 had all of the chapters, all the details memorized. But 60 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:40.240 you know, after a few months it starts to fade 61 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:42.680 a little bit, so I think a broader approach would 62 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:44.759 probably work better. Yeah. 63 00:03:44.800 --> 00:03:49.120 Absolutely, you also just talk at the beginning, a little 64 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:55.840 bit about just movie makers deciding to well not deciding 65 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:59.280 to be inspired, but certainly they were inspired by real 66 00:03:59.319 --> 00:04:03.280 life and bizarre crimes and strange crimes that are covered 67 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:06.199 in Behind the Whore. Just tell us a little bit 68 00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:10.479 about just the very beginning of filmmaking, because obviously filmmakers 69 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:14.319 are influenced by other filmmakers. So you talk about Fritz 70 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:18.160 Lang nineteen thirty one and M and just talk about 71 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:24.759 just a little bit of the true history that inspired filmmaker. 72 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:29.000 Okay, Yeah, So M was a film that was made 73 00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:32.639 by Fritz Lang and released in Weimar, Germany. That is 74 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:38.240 the period of the German Republic between the two World Wars. 75 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:41.560 It was about two years before Hitler's rise to power, 76 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.600 and during this period there was a lot of problems. 77 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:48.160 We just kind of paved the way for the Nazis. 78 00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:51.920 There is like hyperinflation, there is a lot of poverty, 79 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:57.439 and there was also a strange boom in serial murder 80 00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:02.600 and this did not go unnoticed to the police and 81 00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:07.079 the citizenry in Germany at the time. Now, they didn't 82 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:11.600 have a name for it. It wasn't until around this time, 83 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:16.000 about nineteen thirty one, the same year that m came 84 00:05:16.040 --> 00:05:19.439 out that Ernestkinnatt, who was like the director of the 85 00:05:19.480 --> 00:05:23.279 Berlin Police, came up with the term Syrian mart for 86 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:27.839 serial murder. So it was the first time it was 87 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:30.800 really named. And so we can talk about some of 88 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:34.360 those some of those murderers that were in Weymeyer, Germany. 89 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:37.639 Some of them there's a lot more information than others, 90 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:41.879 but some of them are really truly grotesque cases. Like 91 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:45.560 even by today's standards, they still hold up as being 92 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:48.240 really foul. 93 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:54.600 Absolutely, Yeah, and some of them are now again involved 94 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:57.560 with the golden age of serial killing. At least these 95 00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:00.879 are regarded as some of the biggest and biggest names 96 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:04.879 in serial killing and certainly in true crime these days. 97 00:06:06.240 --> 00:06:12.000 Yeah, and you'll see references going back to particularly the 98 00:06:12.000 --> 00:06:14.720 one that I was able to find the most information 99 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.560 about and wrote the most about was the Vampire of Dusseldorf, 100 00:06:18.680 --> 00:06:22.399 Peter Turton. But he's also kind of the last in 101 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:26.720 the chronology. So just to begin, you have a guy 102 00:06:26.800 --> 00:06:30.439 who was known mostly as stump arm and his name 103 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:34.000 was Johann Meyer, and there's not a hell of a 104 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:37.639 lot to talk about with him. Just the case itself 105 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:44.079 seemed to be mainly shooting people, and he would do 106 00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:46.720 weird things like he killed two men and then he 107 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:51.319 would decapitate them and he would swap their heads, for instance. 108 00:06:52.040 --> 00:06:57.920 And so this was going on more around the very 109 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:01.560 end of the First World War. He's not a particularly 110 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:03.720 interesting one, but I gave him like a couple of 111 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:07.319 pages just to show where it all began. Then you 112 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:12.800 have a guy Frederick Schumann, the Terror of Falconhagen Lake, 113 00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:20.319 and he was I think probably highly psychopathic. He was 114 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:23.439 one of these criminals that he was very diverse, and 115 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:28.040 he would prey on people in lover's lanes, kill the 116 00:07:28.079 --> 00:07:32.000 males and then rape and murder their female partners in 117 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:36.519 a much more sadistic way. And he would do things too, 118 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:39.759 like just shoot people driving along the Autobahn just for 119 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.120 a thrill. So those are probably the two of the 120 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.879 lesser known ones. When we get to Carl Grossman, and 121 00:07:47.000 --> 00:07:51.040 this is now into the nineteen twenties, he's known as 122 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:56.839 the Butcher of Berlin, and Grossman ran a sausage stand 123 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:01.759 at a train station. I can't recall it off the 124 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:03.560 top of my head, but it was a very busy 125 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:09.879 train station in Germany, and essentially people would just come 126 00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:14.160 by and they loved his plump, juicy sausages and the 127 00:08:14.199 --> 00:08:18.920 special flavor that they had, and these significantly improved at 128 00:08:18.920 --> 00:08:24.040 one point in time, and because I guess at the time, 129 00:08:24.439 --> 00:08:27.920 because there were fruit shortages in Germany, they would pad 130 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:31.480 out the sausages with things like turnips and all kinds 131 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:34.559 of other fillers. But they noted at some point that 132 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:38.679 his sausages became particularly needy and they would buy them 133 00:08:38.679 --> 00:08:41.000 and they'd be in a rush, so nobody really paid 134 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:44.360 much attention to just get the famous sausages, get on 135 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:46.840 the train and go where they needed to be going. Well, 136 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:50.679 the reason the sausages got so much more juicy was 137 00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:56.759 because Carl Grossmann, having spent so much time around the station, 138 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:01.200 he knew that there were people coming in from the provinces, 139 00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:04.440 so from the countryside, and they were looking for work 140 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:06.240 in Berlin. As I said, this was a time of 141 00:09:06.240 --> 00:09:09.279 great economic downturn, it was the depression, and that these 142 00:09:09.320 --> 00:09:11.960 people they didn't know the city and they were desperate 143 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:15.879 and looking for work. And he would select young women 144 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:20.879 and try and make it seem like a coincidence, like hmmm, 145 00:09:23.039 --> 00:09:25.799 why are you here? Can I can I help you? Well, 146 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:28.159 I'm looking for work, you know, maybe as a serving 147 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.360 girl or something. Oh my, I can't believe this. What 148 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.399 luck could you imagine? I am actually on my way 149 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:40.480 to the employment office right now looking for a serving girl, 150 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:42.840 and here I have found one. Do you want to 151 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:46.120 take the job? Well, of course they do, and they 152 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:48.799 must have felt very fortunate themselves. They just step off 153 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:53.240 the train into Berlin and they've already found employment doing 154 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:57.000 what they want. Except that's the ruse and he brings 155 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:01.559 them back to his apartment and he rapes them and 156 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:06.919 seems to have sadistically tortured them, and then he kills 157 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:11.679 and butchers them, and he makes them into sausage meat. 158 00:10:12.399 --> 00:10:16.799 So it's like you've got the victims arriving at the station, 159 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:22.240 being processed at his apartment, and then being returned to 160 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.000 the station and sold to passengers who are either getting 161 00:10:28.000 --> 00:10:31.919 off the train or getting onto the train. So that 162 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:35.960 in itself was just a complete grizzly case. Yeah, it 163 00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:41.000 reminds me, you know, we see kind of modern iterations 164 00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:43.720 of that, like in the Robert Kickton case in Canada, 165 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:48.799 right where he didn't exactly feed the remains to his neighbors, 166 00:10:48.840 --> 00:10:52.080 but he fed them to the pigs and then so yeah, 167 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:55.919 it's close enough. It's like cannibalism by proxy, right, And 168 00:10:56.000 --> 00:10:58.919 so this obviously just powrified a lot of people. And 169 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:02.679 I don't think that you could just forget that. I mean, 170 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:04.639 even if you lived to the ripe old age of 171 00:11:04.639 --> 00:11:06.879 eighty and through the horrors of the war that were 172 00:11:06.919 --> 00:11:09.480 to come, you would always remember the time that you 173 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:12.480 ate the sausage that was probably made from a young 174 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:14.519 woman who had stepped off the green, right. 175 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:19.960 Yeah, absolutely, and as well as it doesn't end with 176 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.960 that too, because it's almost like he's inspired, is it 177 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:26.559 Fritz Harmon. Fritz Harmon. 178 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:30.840 Yeah, Fritz Harmon was in Hanover, so that's further to 179 00:11:30.879 --> 00:11:34.320 the west and a little later than Carl Grossman, but 180 00:11:34.399 --> 00:11:38.840 also known as a butcher and the werewolf of Hanover 181 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.039 and Fritz Harmon once again, yeah, very similar. M good, 182 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:46.039 good pick up on that. Dan. A lot of young 183 00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:51.080 men coming into Hanover on trains, you know, looking for opportunities, 184 00:11:51.240 --> 00:11:54.279 and there he is, and he has an accomplice who 185 00:11:54.360 --> 00:11:59.279 is his lover and I think his hands grands, I 186 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:05.879 remember that directly, and they would lure these young men 187 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:11.559 back to his apartment and he would bite through their 188 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:14.519 wind pipe. I think sometimes they might have been drunk 189 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.679 or asleep, but he would actually kill them by biting 190 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:22.200 through their wind pipe. And then he would dismember them 191 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:26.919 and he would dump the bodies into the river. And 192 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.080 there was some pretty strong evidence that he was also 193 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:36.159 selling the meat too. The interesting thing about Harmon is 194 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:40.159 that he was also a police informant, which is something 195 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:45.679 that I've seen in modern serial killers or criminals like 196 00:12:45.720 --> 00:12:49.240 you get like Whitey Bulger, right or Scott Lee Kimball. 197 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:51.200 You hear these cases and you go, how can this 198 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:56.320 person be a police informant and be a serial killer 199 00:12:56.320 --> 00:12:58.600 at the same time. Well, it's nothing new. This goes 200 00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:03.159 back to Fritz Harmon at least in Weimar, Germany. And 201 00:13:03.279 --> 00:13:07.360 so I mean they think he killed about twenty five 202 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:12.240 people Grossman. It may have been as little as maybe 203 00:13:12.320 --> 00:13:15.200 four or six, but it could have been high. But yeah, 204 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.720 Harmon almost certainly like at least twenty five. And so 205 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:22.799 this is when they start to really notice this. I mean, 206 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:27.879 Grossman is in Berlin, Harmon is in Hanover. I mean, 207 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.600 these are major cities, and so it's making it into 208 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:35.639 the press. And I think at this time Ernskinnatt who 209 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:40.200 coins Surrey and Marred and probably Fritz Lang are starting 210 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:43.120 to pick up on it more. The final one, of course, 211 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.840 is Peter Curtin, the Vampire of Dusseldorf. And Peter Curtin 212 00:13:48.039 --> 00:13:52.039 is he Matt's alist. That's someone who is sexually aroused 213 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.240 by the side of blood and also a sexual vampire 214 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:58.360 and he gets off in drinking blood and a sexual 215 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:01.480 sadist and that he gets off and causing harm. So 216 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:05.279 he has a whole array of paraphilia, but mainly centering 217 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:10.600 around blood and over a very long career, starting in 218 00:14:10.679 --> 00:14:17.080 the twenties but going into the thirties and targeting mainly females, 219 00:14:17.240 --> 00:14:19.519 but I think there was a few male victims in 220 00:14:19.559 --> 00:14:22.919 there too, but the age ranges went from being little 221 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:25.960 girls all the way up to being middle aged women. 222 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:32.080 Peter Curtin is basically there was a few home invasions, 223 00:14:32.120 --> 00:14:34.960 but he's stalking them through the streets and he might 224 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:37.279 club them over the head with a hammer or stab 225 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:42.080 them to death, and then he will masturbate at the 226 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:45.399 you know, looking at their blood or in some cases 227 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:49.039 drinking their blood. And on at least one occasion that 228 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:52.159 I can recall he had sex with the dead body. 229 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:56.639 So when you put this all together, like we even 230 00:14:56.799 --> 00:15:01.039 in this time right now, we can't think of five 231 00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:06.759 serial killers that really are that standout in this day 232 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:10.840 and age. As you said, the golden age in quotation 233 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.480 marks has kind of passed. But if you just go 234 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.159 to the swamp period in Weimar, Germany, you have this 235 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:21.960 deluge of sexual, violent depravity and people that are just 236 00:15:22.039 --> 00:15:25.679 going what is going on and suddenly earn skinnat coins 237 00:15:25.720 --> 00:15:28.919 the term Surian mord for it. By the way, he 238 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:33.759 was the one that investigated several of these cases. And 239 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:37.240 so Fritz Lang, this filmmaker, is watching this and it 240 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:42.440 inspires him to make m City Searches for a Murderer 241 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:45.720 in nineteen thirty one, starring the great Peter Lourie who 242 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.879 plays basically a child murderer. And they don't get into 243 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.320 really the details too much about what he did, and 244 00:15:51.360 --> 00:15:55.320 I mean back then they have to be careful with that, right. 245 00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:59.840 But from a cinematic point of view, it's beautifully shot 246 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:04.679 as a narrative, it's in German, it's got subtitles, it's 247 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.000 dated a bit. You have to be a very patient 248 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:12.320 film watcher, but just seeing the photography and the performance 249 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.440 by Peter Laurie, and then if you're able to go 250 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.200 back to that period and put yourself in what it 251 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:20.120 would have been like to see a film like that 252 00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.240 back in nineteen thirty one, you realize this is like 253 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:26.399 one of the masterpieces of cinema, like a Citizen Kane, 254 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:34.159 basically one of the first Yeah, sorry, that is my fault. 255 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.639 I paused and then went to add because also arguably 256 00:16:37.679 --> 00:16:39.519 one of the first thrillers. 257 00:16:41.399 --> 00:16:46.080 Yes, also too that it had gone not suddenly, but 258 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:49.600 it had gone by nineteen thirty one from a depiction 259 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:54.200 of mindless evil to a psychological drama. So it really 260 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:59.279 was a leap in sort of a protagonist depiction in 261 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:00.639 movies certainly. 262 00:17:02.039 --> 00:17:09.559 Yeah, well that's it. So the villain in m who's 263 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:14.000 portrayed by Peter Laurie by no means do you like him. 264 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:18.440 I mean, this is a child serial child killer. But 265 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:25.680 there's this classic scene where the police start to increase 266 00:17:25.720 --> 00:17:28.119 their presence and they start to come down on criminal 267 00:17:28.160 --> 00:17:31.200 elements in the city because these murders are so high 268 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:33.359 profile and they're like, we've got to crack down. It's 269 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.440 got to be one of these criminals, you know, increase 270 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.839 basically the police interference into the day to day lives 271 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.240 of criminals, and we'll find this miscreant. And so for 272 00:17:46.359 --> 00:17:50.279 all the organized crime bosses in the city at this time, 273 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:53.720 this is really bad for business. And so then they 274 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:56.000 join in and they're like, if we can get rid 275 00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.440 of this child murderer too, then the police are going 276 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:02.519 to back off and we can make as much money 277 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.319 as we were before. Once again, this is during the 278 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:09.440 depression and there were black markets and things to profit from. 279 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:13.279 And so now he's not only got the police coming 280 00:18:13.319 --> 00:18:17.119 after him, he's got the criminals. And it's the criminals, 281 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:22.160 the organized gangsters that find him and they at the 282 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:24.920 end of the movie, they bring him before this kangaroo court, 283 00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:28.279 and the expression on Peter Lourie's face, he's so a 284 00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:31.839 motive and you can see he's genuinely panicked and he 285 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:34.799 knows that though they're going to give him a trial, 286 00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:38.279 it's not a real trial and they're gonna end up 287 00:18:38.359 --> 00:18:43.839 killing him anyway. And he says, and I'm paraphrasing here, 288 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:48.079 who are you to accuse me like you do this 289 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.400 because you profit for you, it's a choice for me. 290 00:18:53.160 --> 00:18:55.640 I just can't help myself. And that's when he breaks 291 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:58.440 down that famous scene where he's weeping into his hands. 292 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:02.799 I just can't help my self. And it's an interesting 293 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:05.359 as you said, it breaks the black and white there, 294 00:19:05.400 --> 00:19:09.039 because there is something of a point in that he's 295 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:14.319 driven by this intersexual compulsion which leads him to do 296 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.720 immoral things. And yes, he chooses to do that, but 297 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:24.000 the strain on him psychologically to commit these acts of 298 00:19:24.079 --> 00:19:29.000 murder versus the choices that these other criminals make, which 299 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:31.519 almost certainly involved murder at some point if you're an 300 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:37.039 organized crime, right, he's saying that, you know, you make 301 00:19:37.079 --> 00:19:40.240 me out to be a monster, But I'm driven by 302 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:43.920 what BTK or someone would call factor X, right, like 303 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.640 I was born this way and you guys choose it 304 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:52.119 and you point the finger at me. And so don't 305 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:54.440 take that as a defense of the serial child killer. 306 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:58.640 But it's that sometimes I think we we tend to 307 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:02.799 glorify organize criminals, right, We tend to think of them 308 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.680 and oh, they're not as bad, even though they can 309 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:10.119 be responsible for many more deaths, and they're doing it 310 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:19.079 for much shallower reasons psychologically, you know. So absolutely a 311 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:23.400 student observation there Dan, and that's the masterpiece of the film, 312 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:25.160 and that took a lot of balls. 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So tell us just briefly about the inspiration, 347 00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.680 the real life inspiration for this movie. 348 00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:07.920 The inspiration for the movie was based on the crimes 349 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:13.279 of Nathan Leopold and Richard Lob in Chicago. And this 350 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:19.720 goes back to I think it was the nineteen twenties. 351 00:22:21.240 --> 00:22:25.680 It was, yeah, it was around us. Yeah, yeah, it 352 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:28.000 was the mid twenties. And at the time it was 353 00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:31.240 called the crime of the Century, and like when you 354 00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:34.519 hear it, it's a bad crime, but it's had a 355 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:37.039 lot of hyperbole. Back then, everything was the crime of 356 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.359 the century. So Leopold and Lobe. Are these two people 357 00:22:41.720 --> 00:22:46.200 of genius IQ or around it, and they come from 358 00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:52.279 privileged upbringings and they're attending the best schools. And Lobe 359 00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:57.640 is more of a criminal, Yeah, he gets off on transgression. 360 00:22:57.759 --> 00:23:03.000 He's more charismatic, he makes friends more easily. And Leopold, 361 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:08.079 his counterpart, not so much. He's more of a removed intellectual. 362 00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:16.880 He's awkward, and he's also homosexual, and he really craves Lobe. 363 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:22.359 So you have a folly, a good situation that happens 364 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:26.039 here where you have Lobe going, you know, we should 365 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:30.200 commit crime because it's thrilling and it's fun, and you 366 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:34.079 have Leopold who knows that if he helps Lobe with 367 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:38.920 the crimes that Lobe will engage in sexual relations with him. 368 00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:45.200 So Lobe uses his sexual the fact that Leopold is 369 00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:48.400 sexually attracted to him as like a character he dangles. 370 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:53.519 And of course, with Lobe being Lobe, it's enough to 371 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:57.279 just say committing crime is fun. But with Leopold, because 372 00:23:57.319 --> 00:23:59.640 he is and he did have a really high IQ, 373 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.039 very learned young man, he had to justify it in 374 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:09.200 some ways, so he used I would say a total 375 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:15.880 misreading of Friedrich Nietzsche's idea of the ubermanche, and that 376 00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:18.440 was the way that he was able to justify doing this, 377 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:25.039 is that saying, hey, we are so intelligent and we 378 00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:32.039 are so rich, and we are so much more transcendent 379 00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:37.960 than other people that we can commit murder and like 380 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:40.480 have almost a right to do it because we're part 381 00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:46.559 of this elite are we are beyond man ubermanch. I 382 00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:49.640 won't get into the into what Nietzsche actually meant by that. 383 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.599 It was something a lot more in my mind, benevolent, 384 00:24:53.519 --> 00:24:57.119 but he uses it to justify it. And you know, 385 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:01.319 they go from thefts to break and enterings and such. 386 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:05.599 But with these types of criminals, at some point the 387 00:25:05.720 --> 00:25:08.920 thrill is gone, to quote BB King, and they decide, 388 00:25:09.039 --> 00:25:11.599 you know, what would be the ultimate thrill would be 389 00:25:12.160 --> 00:25:16.640 to commit a murder. And so they meticulously plan this murder. 390 00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:19.720 You know, how they're going to rent the car, where 391 00:25:19.759 --> 00:25:21.599 they're going to dump the body, how they're going to 392 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:25.759 do it. They overplan it in many ways, which was 393 00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:29.119 I was just having a conversation about this with Catherine 394 00:25:29.160 --> 00:25:32.519 Ramslin the other day about how you can actually overplan 395 00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:36.160 a murder because then you don't really adjust for all 396 00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:39.720 of the variables that can go wrong, right, and they 397 00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:46.640 they scour a neighborhoohood looking for a victim to abduct, 398 00:25:47.319 --> 00:25:52.240 and they find Bobby Franks, who was about fourteen years 399 00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.400 old at the time. He was a young man and 400 00:25:54.680 --> 00:25:57.839 he was I think a cousin of Lobe. He was 401 00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:01.200