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Speaker 1: In that position if you stress and only believe in transcendence.

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The Orthodox view following Hebrew Revelation does not believe that

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God is only transcendent. He is also imminent, and there

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is analogical predication. Analogy means that you can predicate on

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the basis of similarity, not a one to one correspondence similarity,

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but there's also dissimilarity. But we believe that God can

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condescend to speak to us, to make things clear to us.

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So we don't have a problem with anthropomorphic language, and

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we don't have a problem with Theophanes. They think the

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two go together. But for the text that you're asking for.

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In Philippians Too, Paul says that Christ, who is and

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has the form of God equal to God Philippians Too,

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made himself of no reputation, taking on the form of

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a bond servant, meaning the form of humanity, coming in

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the likeness of men. He humbled himself and became obedient

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to the point of death. Deathn't across, so he didn't

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surrender his divinity. It's a both and and not in

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either or, So there's no contradiction between the divine nature

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and the human nature. God is not opposite the world.

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God created the world, and he created the world and

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mankind in his image, in his likeness. Even the Quran

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says Adam was made in the image and likeness of Allah. Well,

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wait a minute, I thought, there's no likeness at all

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to Allah. You see. So both Judaism and Islam have

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this principle in their systems, and then they grapple with

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it in trying to make sense of this when Christianity

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alone is consistent with the Hebrew revelation that the second

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person has always been manifesting and stepping into time and space.

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Why is it impossible for God? If God creates time

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and space, why is it impossible for him to manifest

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in time and space? Says who?

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Speaker 2: So even unless it like the second person of the

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God had manifest like, you know, as Jesus, Like, no, he.

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Speaker 1: Is Jesus, not manifesting as Jesus. It is Jesus.

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Speaker 2: That's Jesus, right. So, like when he's like walking around,

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is he as to all knowledge? Is he's still a mission?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: I mean the text here says that he is equal

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with God in John one. When John says in John

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one that he was walking around with us in the flesh.

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John says he was also in the bosom of God

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as he was walking around, because he never surrendered or

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loses his divine nature.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so, howcome in the Gospel of Mark, you know,

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he's hungry.

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Speaker 4: I think it's chapter eleven.

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Speaker 2: He's hungry, and then he sees a fig tree, and

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you know, he tries to go for fruit, but he

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sees that there's it doesn't have anything but leaves, And

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then he did how come he didn't know that there

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was no it was not the season on?

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Speaker 1: How come he didn't know the ap No, that whole

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point of that passage is an object lesson because he

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curses the fig tree because the fig tree is a

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symbol of Israel. It's not a lack of knowledge. He's

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making an object lesson for his disciples to say, you

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see this fig tree, how it has no fruit on it?

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The fig tree is a symbol of Israel. Israel no

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longer has fruit because it is barren because they're about

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to kill her Messiah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I get that, But the text itself,

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it says Jesus was hungry.

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Speaker 4: So he's so if.

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Speaker 1: Jesus has a fully human nature and he willed to

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have that right. So, in other words, as a divine

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person or subject, when he assumed human nature, he assumed

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it with all of its weaknesses and imperfections on purpose

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to raise it, to deify it, and to heal it.

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Speaker 3: That's the whole purpose.

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Speaker 1: So he absolutely got tired, he absolutely got hungry, he

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absolutely got thirsty, he wept. All of those things are

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proper to humanity because he's he's fully human.

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Speaker 4: No, I get that.

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Speaker 2: So, but the thing is that, you know, he has

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the properties of human nature. But he's hungry, and he

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sees the fig tree, so he goes to find if

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it has any fruit, and that he sees it right,

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But then it doesn't have any and then he ends

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up cursing the fig tree because then he said that

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it's like it kind of represents Israel.

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Speaker 3: But he explains that it represents Israel.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, he explains that represents Israel.

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Speaker 2: But my point was that if he's hungry, right, and

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he knows that the fig tree doesn't have any fruit,

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just why doesn't he just go there and curse the

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fig tree?

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Speaker 4: Wise he like going there.

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Speaker 1: For fruit because in many places throughout the Gospels, the

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message and the intention is to show us his full humanity.

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Just like when he's in the garden and he prays

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to the Father, right, he says, let this cut pass

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for me, yet not my will, but thy will be done.

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In our understanding of that, he is intentionally subjecting his

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human will to the will of God the Father, because

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he wants to show us and to be an example

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to us, that he really is fully human. And so

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he went through the whole range of human experience from

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being born as a child to maturing into a full adult.

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So our explanation, our exposition of a lot of these

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passages that it is absolutely intentional to show us that

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he's fully human.

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Speaker 5: I see.

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Speaker 2: So like I think it's also in the Gospel. Maybe

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it's Matthew and Mark Reigi doesn't know the hour, and

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I think it was John Krisostom who says that, I

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think it's like a form of expression. So would you

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quote it that same interpretation of that past.

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Speaker 1: Yes, if you read if you read Saint Basil's letter,

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I think it's two thirty five or two thirty six.

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As I explained in the debate, Jesus oftentimes utilizes this

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form of exaggeration or rhetoric where he expresses things in

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an extreme way. There's no one good but God? Right

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does that? Does he literally mean no one is good?

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So he means He's not good? And other prophets are good.

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Speaker 3: No, it isn't.

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Speaker 1: He's saying in an exaggerated way, there's no one good

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but God. So likewise, no one knows this but the Father, right,

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And that's Basil has many other examples. If you read his.

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Speaker 3: Letter, it's two Ory five or through thirty six. But

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there's a there's.

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Speaker 1: An article on this if you want it, let me

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find it now. Some people, some of the church fathers,

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expressed exposited it as a pertaining to the human nature.

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It can be interpreted either way, but ultimately it doesn't.

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We're not worried about it because their countless passages to

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talk about the son also possessing omniscions.

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Speaker 3: Right, Jesus knew all things.

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Speaker 1: He knew what was in the Thaniel John two, So

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we don't have a problem saying that. Yeah, you could

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interpret this as a limitation that was proper to the humanity.

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For example, in Luke, when it says Jesus went to

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argue with the scribes and the Pharisees in the temple

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when he was a young man. It says that he

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grew in wisdom and stature amongst God and in favor

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amongst God and men. So those are properties that could

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only apply to humanity. Right, the sun does not grow

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in stature, Jesus, I'm saying the subject, the divine subject

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of the sun, does not increase or diminish his divine nature.

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Divine nature doesn't come in partition. It's not half. It's

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not the percentages Jesus in the fifty percent divine, fifty

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percent human, he's a hundred percent divine, hundredcent hum And

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so the passage in Luke where it says that he

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grew in wisdom and stature in favor, is applicable to

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his human nature. And many passages in the scriptures are

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this way, where sometimes, for example, if he said, if

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he's doing a miracle, we said, the miracles are evidences

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of in demonstrations of his divinity as divine power, divine nature.

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Only God could change water to wine, only God could

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walk on water. But other passages demonstrated that he's fully human, crying, eating,

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and they're intentional. It's not that his divinity lacked, but

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as again, Philippians said, he willingly chose to be in

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those states. It's just it's the same thing with the

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question of God answering prayers and reciprocity. How does if God,

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how does God answer prayers? If he's all knowing, what's

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the point of praying? Well, as doctor Bradshaw argues very lucidly,

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God willingly condescends to have reciprocity with his creek. So yes,

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he's all knowing, he knows what you're gonna pray. Well,

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then why is it because he wants us to have

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a reciprocal prayer with That's why cryptos.

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Speaker 6: Hello, Yeah, so I'm a Christian, but I'm in the

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classical situation where I cannot you know, I just said

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to conclude with what dogma would like to follow, you know,

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so how do I process?

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Speaker 1: What? What do you mean? What church?

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Speaker 3: What do you mean?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like denomination?

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Speaker 1: What's your background?

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Speaker 6: Well, I'm Greek, so it's only Orthodox churches in hands.

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Speaker 1: Well, you got it easy. What do you mean?

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Speaker 4: Well, look, you know you're Orthodox, but you're right, because.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, it's because I don't have a family background.

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So it's not really like many people have blind faith,

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even if it's.

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Speaker 4: True or not.

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Speaker 6: But when I go to the chess, I like the

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liturgy and stuff, but a lot of the times, you know,

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with many traditions, it's very weird to me.

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Speaker 4: You know, because of.

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Speaker 6: The additions not being in the Bible lend you know

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how like like the stuff Protestants say, you know, like

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that's going on through my mind and I have to

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look at every single thing like I cannot.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, like there's a there's a if you want to.

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The simplest thing I could think of is there's a

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three volume set by doctor Clark Carlton, The Way, the

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Truth and the Life, and it's it's three volumes, two

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of which are one again once against Protestantism, once against Catholicism,

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and one is for Orthodoxy. So maybe check that out

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would be a good place to start. That's the easiest

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kind of like three volume thing I could think of

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that would deal with that. So people asking I did

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not say God is irrational or illogical? I said he's

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supra logical. That's what I said. So there's a difference

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between saying something is transcends logic and logical categories and

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saying that it contradicts logic and logical categories two different things.

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Boom again. I mean Muslims have the exact same issue

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when it comes to the relationship of all his attributes

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to the essence, and they've been debating it for centuries. Again,

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we've covered this countless times. When they act like it's

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not a debate, there lie, it absolutely is a debate.

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I mean, you can go watch doctor Khalil and Jake

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debating this issue. So what do you mean it doesn't exist?

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And then they'll say she had, don't count? She had?

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Don't count?

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Speaker 3: It says, why don't she account?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean? And by the way, it's not

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just shea the other Creeds. Remember when this guy acted

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like he didn't know what akdah meant? So you understand

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we have totally different approaches to this kind of stuff, right,

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I mean, for Christians, we aren't really supposed to be

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deceptive right now. I'm not saying that there aren't deceptive Christians,

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of course there are, but I think it's much more

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acceptable from their perspective, at least in my experience, that yeah,

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you can lie to Christians. Because I asked him explicitly

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what his akita was and he wouldn't say, which is

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being intentionally deceptive. Yeah, soon he's debated as well. Exactly

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the relationship of Allah to his essence is. I've got

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multiple books from various creeds of Islam debating it, and

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they act like it's not a debate. Now. When I

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brought this up on Twitter, I said, what do you miss?

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Not a debate? I kid you not. The answer was

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from many many Muslims, Well, we all think Allah is one. Okay,

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So because you use the word one, right, well we

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all say all as one. See we don't disagree. Yeah,

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I know you use the word. The question is what's

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the meaning? And you guys have gone to war over this,

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So what are you talking about? Okay? QD. If he

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destroyed me, I want you to come on and I

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want you to give some examples of where he answered

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my objections and destroyed me. For example, makes sense of

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Muslim Lantern's argument about Allah's attributes and the dependence relationship

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and his shirt analogy and how are their analogies when

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Allah is nothing like creatures? I mean, how slow are

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you guys to not understand this objection? And in the

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comments in the last few days, I realized they don't

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know what the word analogy means. They're literally saying he

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was making on that logy. Yeah, exactly, do you know

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what the word analogy means? Likeness or similarity? So QD,

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where are you at, buddy, come on and debate. If

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you're not going to come on in debate, then just

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boot these people. It's not it's not a place for

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people to just spam gibberish. And in the comments of

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the Muslims who do think that Muslim lantern one. I've

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asked every one of them that I see, maybe I haven't.

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Speaker 3: There's tons of comments.

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Speaker 1: I've got to all of them, but I asked them,

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please give some examples of where and how he answered

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the argument and refuted me. And they don't. They don't

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have any way to explain it. They're just spamming stuff

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because they know in they sense that maybe this is

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a weak position. Boom, what's up?

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Speaker 5: Elogi Drek? Can you hear me?

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Speaker 1: Yep?

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Speaker 5: Okay, I just have a question regarding your Bible. Do

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you hold to the position that your Bible is infallible?

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Speaker 1: H yeah, but I don't know what you think that means.

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Speaker 5: I mean that it cannot contain error.

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Speaker 1: Well, again, I don't know what you think that means,

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because that can mean different things. There, we have it.

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We believe there are ascribal errors, sure.

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Speaker 5: Okay, are there contradictions?

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Speaker 4: Uh?

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Speaker 5: No, okay, can you flip to Monthew sixteen four?

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Speaker 4: All right?

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Speaker 1: What are what's your position on the Bible.

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Speaker 5: I'm not a Christian, I'm a Muslim.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And are you going to answer the Muslim dilemma first?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I'm just here to ask a question.

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Speaker 1: No, you're not. You're here to debate.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm here to debate you on the Bible right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, but first we're going to talk about the

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Islamic dilemma. Can you do that first? Because you're going

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to argue the Bible's corrupt and has contradictions? So why

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does the Quran tell me many places to go to

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a book that's corrupt?

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Speaker 5: Okay? So is this how is this how like you deal.

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Speaker 1: With the contra I'm to say, I'm going to let

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me grant you that there's contradiction. Okay, there's contradictions in

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the Bible. So why would Allah direct me to go

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to a book that's full of contradictions?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? So you're granted me that there's contradictions.

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Speaker 3: Correct, for the sake of the argument. You don't know

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what that means?

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Speaker 5: Okay? So I mean if an atheist came to you,

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how would you deal with the contradiction?

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Speaker 1: Would you say, I'm going to argue tag I'm not

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going to argue Bible texts with an atheist.

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Speaker 5: Why can't you just defund the text without like simply,

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you know, like running to my book. I don't don't

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understand why Christians do that.

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Speaker 1: Well, you want me to believe in the Koran, right,

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not necessarily, you don't want me to believe Why are

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you debating if you don't want to believe in.

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Speaker 5: The Koran in the sense that I want you to

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become a Muslim? Is that what you mean? Or enough argument?

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Speaker 1: Of course, that's what I mean. Why would Allah direct

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me to so I'm going to grant you for the

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sake of argument that Okay, the Bible's full of contradictions.

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Speaker 3: Why would Allah direct me to a book full of contradictions?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 5: But I mean you're shifting. You're granting him for the

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sake of the argument. That's not not your position, right,

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I want to alter your position academically.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so alter it by explaining to me why I

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should believe in a book that tells me to look

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to a book full of contradictions.

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Speaker 5: Okay, we're not.

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Speaker 1: Just yeah, so you won't answer that, right, So no, no,

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Muslim can't answer this. Okay, what's answer?

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Speaker 4: Definitely?

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Speaker 3: What's answer?

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Speaker 1: What's answer?

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Speaker 5: Okay, I'll okay, I'll go go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Show me where, Show you where? What?

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Speaker 5: Show me where? It tells me to go back to

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a book with contradictions and to.

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Speaker 1: Follow that book does allah in many places? You want

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me to pull up the different lists.

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Speaker 5: Of the texts, Go ahead, please, all right?

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Speaker 1: M five forty six, two, two, eighty five, six, one,

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fifteen and eighteen twenty seven for example, this is your shotgunning.

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Speaker 5: Can we do one at a time.

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Speaker 1: You don't know these passages? They're well known.

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Speaker 3: They come up in every debate between Christians.

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Speaker 5: And muslim I agree, but we got to do one

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by one. This is called galloping. Can we do.

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Speaker 1: It's not gish galloping. Just you know these answers, You

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know these topics. You know this situation has come up

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for years. So I don't want to walk through every

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single passages. It will take twenty minutes to do it.

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Just tell me what the answer is.

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Speaker 5: Okay, which one do you want to go with first?

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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter go with any of them because they

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tell me to go to the prior revelation? Do they not?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I disagree, but I'm gonna.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what well? What okay? What do they tell me

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to go to if they don't tell me to go

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to that?

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Speaker 4: Okay?

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Speaker 5: Perfect, I'm gonna I'm gonna read you the verses you said,

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Chapter five, verse forty six crow perfect, Okay, no? Can

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can you hear me still?

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Speaker 4: By the way, yep?

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Speaker 5: Okay, I'm curious if you've read, like the verses that

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came after. I mean, have you read two verses that

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came after?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't pulled up right here? Okay, none of

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those None of those verses refuw the point that's being made.

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Speaker 3: In fact, they back it up.

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Speaker 5: Okay, let's see about that. So the verse you brought

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to to prove that the hard confirms the Bible, it

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goes as then in the footsteps of the prophets, we

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sent Jesus son of Mary confirming the.

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Speaker 1: Tora reveal What tora is that.

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Speaker 5: The tora that was revealed to Moses, thank.

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Speaker 3: You, And what tour is that in the seventh century, It's.

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Speaker 4: Not going to be I don't how do you know that?

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Speaker 5: Because we have supposed that says that the.

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Speaker 1: I want to know how you know that? You're You're

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had these assert that how do you know that?

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Speaker 5: I mean, there's many contradictions in the Old Testament.

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Speaker 1: So wait a minute, So now we're being told to

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go to a book with contradictions.

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Speaker 3: Like I said to begin with, where is it?

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Speaker 5: Where is it telling? Where is it telling me to

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go to this book where I don't really see that

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it's just confirming the book that was.

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Speaker 1: Again other passages to two eighty five, six, one, fifteen, eighteen,

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twenty seven will say that you can confirm will say

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that you can confirm this revelation by what came before.

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But are you telling me that before we do that?

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Are you telling me that all those words can be corrupted?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? When you say corrupt, oh means the Wait a minute,

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God's words says that the God's words cannot be corupted.

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Speaker 7: But exactly to understand you have to be you have

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to understand what is meant by that? Okay, okay, So

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the hold on makes it very clear that God's words

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cannot be corrupted. And what that means is that you

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cannot change God's decree. You can not change what's in

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his low head fold, which is the tablet with him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, so you're gonna apply it to the uncreated.

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Speaker 5: Right one second?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 5: No, no, can I finish? Please? I'm giving you my reasoning

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and you're cutting me off.

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Speaker 1: Because we've heard all these arguments a million times. They

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don't address the topics.

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Speaker 5: That's one ano there millions. You can hear it a

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month and your.

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Speaker 1: First time it's okay, I go for it.

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Speaker 5: Okay, thank you. So, according to the verse for bringing right,

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the Oran cannot be corrupted. Right, what this means is

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that you cannot change God's to creep and you cannot

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change what's in his preserved tablet.

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Speaker 7: Rather, what is being corrupted, According to chapter two over

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seventy nine, it is people writing something new with their

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hands and saying that it's from God seeking a fleet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And that text also presupposes that the Torah at

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this time is not corrupted. Do you understand that we

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have we have to listen, we have Torah and gospel.

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You understand that predate that.

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Speaker 3: Listen to me.

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Speaker 1: Do you understand we have texts that pre date the

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seventh century?

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Speaker 4: Sure?

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Speaker 5: I don't. I don't. I don't disagree with that yet.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but again this is so what text would they'd

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be understond In other words, we know what text they

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could go to in the seventh century to check it?

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Speaker 5: Sorry, repeat it.

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Speaker 1: We know we nowadays know already what text the Jews

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and Christians at this time in the seventh century had

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to go and look at we have those texts. You

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understand that.

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Speaker 5: I don't know how this relates to what we're talking.

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Speaker 1: About, because it because that's what they're going to look to.

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You're the slow What do you mean look towards? Oh

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you can? It says you can confirm the new revelation

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on the basis of the old and how could we

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do that if if Allah's words could be It does

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say that. Then the other verses it says that.

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Speaker 5: Can I please reply? Can I please reply? It's just

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like a monologue. Okay, I appreciate that. So the Quran,

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the revelation, I know that.

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Speaker 1: One second, the Kuran tells you to confirm it by

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the previous revelation. You just admitted that you just admitted

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that you already admitted that Allas. You already admitted that

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Allah's previous words can be corrupted. And you said that

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is the tablet with him. You haven't explained it. I

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let you talk. What was the explanation because you're not

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explaining it. You're just talking around and telling your stuff. Okay,

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what is the what is it? What is the what

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is the unwritten tablet? That whatever? You said?

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Speaker 3: The uncreated tablet with Allaw?

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Speaker 7: It's it's it's it's the preserved And where is that?

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That's where he's at.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean so there's an uncreated eternal tablet

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with Allaw?

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Speaker 5: Did I say it was eternal?

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Speaker 1: Is all as is all A's Quran? Eternal? His speech?

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So he doesn't have so he doesn't have uncreated speech.

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Speaker 5: It is uncreated.

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Speaker 1: You just said, no.

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Speaker 5: Did you know that things can be generated into existence

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and be uncreated?

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Speaker 1: This is retarded. Something can come into existence and be uncreated.

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This is the stupidity of this stuff. And they have

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a problem with the eternal generation. Right, what does five

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forty seven say. Let the people of Gos of the

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Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed in it. Those

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who do not, judged by what Ah has revealed, are rebellious.

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We have revealed it to you, the Book of Truth,

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confirmation of the previous scriptures, the very versus right here

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that we've walked through a million times. We don't need

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you to make up new Exejesus and to say stupid

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stuff like something can be created that's eternal into existence,

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generate into existence that's eternal. So it's an uncreated creation,

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is what you're saying. Kings. It does not say that

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you can check the previous with the new. It does

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not say that. It says it right there in five

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forty seven, King, What's up?

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Speaker 5: Hey, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: Jay?

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Speaker 8: I've just been listening to you for a little bit.

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Speaker 9: Is this this is a.

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Speaker 4: Debate about religion or is it also about the sneak

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and Tate situation.

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Speaker 3: It's just religion, all.

470
00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:27,279
Speaker 4: Right, gotcha?

471
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:27,599
Speaker 1: Yeah?

472
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 4: No, okay, no, yeah, I'm just I'm not hearing Israel

473
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:31,680
right now.

474
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 1: That's fine. We're gonna move on the topic. Is Islam

475
00:23:35,799 --> 00:23:37,680
in those things? And I put sneak O in the

476
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,319
title because I was on the sneak O channel debating

477
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,880
Muslim lantern two nights ago.

478
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 3: Father Moses.

479
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:50,839
Speaker 10: You want to say something, I'm Jay Kuran. We talk

480
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,480
about today, but I noticed that you have not astrology

481
00:23:54,599 --> 00:23:57,079
as a topic. I want to ask you questions about

482
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,440
the trology Koran that's not in the listing for you.

483
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 1: Well, there's an eternal, uncreated Quran that is with Allah,

484
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,559
that's different from Allah, but it's also are. It's also

485
00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:11,119
a creature that comes into existence.

486
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,599
Speaker 10: What about create eternal athrology as.

487
00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 4: Well?

488
00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: I guess since astrology is based on fatalism, yeah, we

489
00:24:21,279 --> 00:24:24,680
could say that Islam is in many schools or excuse me,

490
00:24:24,759 --> 00:24:27,000
Akida's creeds fatalistic.

491
00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 10: I just want to ask you a question about topics

492
00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:31,440
you don't have listed on here.

493
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:40,559
Speaker 1: Thank you, Joseph, what's up? Appreciate that, Joseph. I'm you

494
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,119
think about this too, just from the bantage point of

495
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:58,079
the seventh century hearer, right, So imagine I'm a seventh

496
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,680
century Jew, are Christian, and I got saying no, no,

497
00:25:01,079 --> 00:25:03,160
the Koran is not telling you to go check this,

498
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,160
even though it says very clearly in these passages.

499
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:07,839
Speaker 3: That I can go check it.

500
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 4: Right.

501
00:25:09,519 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: No, No, it's not telling you that. It's telling you

502
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:16,119
that there's a corrupt Bible. But there's a real true Bible,

503
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,839
even though we have the existing copies of the Torah

504
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,200
and the Gospels from the seventh century and earlier. No, no,

505
00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:28,160
there's a secret one that's not corrupt. Well, the hearers

506
00:25:28,279 --> 00:25:30,839
couldn't go to a secret one. You see how silly

507
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,559
this is? How could I go and check? By the way,

508
00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:37,200
how many times do they argue that Muhammad is predicted

509
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,119
in the Bible? How am I going to go to

510
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,720
the Bible when you say it's corrupt? This is how

511
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:45,160
stupid this is. Then they turn around and say, yeah,

512
00:25:45,279 --> 00:25:48,200
it proves the Koran in all the places where it

513
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,160
agrees with the Koran. This is how stupid this is.

514
00:25:51,279 --> 00:25:53,839
So I can go to a corrupt book to prove

515
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:55,319
the one that's not corrupt.

516
00:25:56,279 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 4: You see that, I ask you a question.

517
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:02,519
Speaker 11: One of the things that's come up a few times

518
00:26:02,599 --> 00:26:07,799
recently on Twitter here has been the issue of the

519
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,519
ever virginity of the Theo Toko, which we obviously know

520
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:13,599
was the firm by the Church fathers, was even a

521
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:19,079
firm by Calvin and Luther. Are there other I know

522
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,640
that there's some references in the Old Testament right of

523
00:26:21,799 --> 00:26:22,799
the gate that has been.

524
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, Ezekiel forty four we see as our reference to.

525
00:26:27,559 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 12: The virgin okay, and there's are there other arguments or

526
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,440
do we mostly just rely on the historical record and

527
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,440
the fact like, look, this was literally accepted for fifteen

528
00:26:37,559 --> 00:26:38,240
hundred plus.

529
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,039
Speaker 4: Years and is like was never really even questioned, well

530
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:42,480
a lot.

531
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 1: So Jerome has an essay and I noticed in the

532
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,640
Pomazanski book actually I was reading this last night. Pomazanski

533
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,039
has a whole section on it as well, addressing the

534
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,319
Protestant objections to ever virginity. So if people have a

535
00:26:55,599 --> 00:26:59,440
proto presbater of Michael Pomazanski's book Orthodox Dogmatics, it has

536
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,880
a really good section on this. This brief but the

537
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,880
classic refutation is still Saint Jerum's perpetual virginity of Mary,

538
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,079
and he deals with the Exegesus where they say, well,

539
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,440
you know, brothers of the Lord, and then that she

540
00:27:16,799 --> 00:27:20,000
was the word till is a big deal, and he

541
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,960
says that you know, Jesus says I will be with

542
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:24,640
you until the end of the world. On the Protestant

543
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,640
ext of Jesus, then we would have to say, oh, well,

544
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,559
so Jesus won't be with us after the end of

545
00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:31,720
the world. So the word till does not necessarily mean

546
00:27:31,799 --> 00:27:33,599
that after that it changes.

547
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 3: Does that make sense?

548
00:27:36,039 --> 00:27:38,319
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's that's the argument that I continue to use,

549
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,839
which is like the children stack quietly.

550
00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:43,319
Speaker 5: Until the teacher arrived, Yes, exactly, and it's like, well

551
00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:43,799
then they didn't.

552
00:27:43,839 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 11: Or somebody said, the man on the desert island ate

553
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:48,400
no food until he.

554
00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 9: Died, and it's like he didn't eat a big meal on.

555
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: The last day of his life, right, Yeah, Yeah, Drum

556
00:27:54,519 --> 00:27:56,720
does exact same thing, with a bunch of other examples there,

557
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,079
and that's in the in this essay.

558
00:27:58,079 --> 00:28:00,319
Speaker 3: I've got the essay pulled up here where he goes through.

559
00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:02,279
Speaker 4: Many of these and I can just google it all

560
00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:02,640
find it.

561
00:28:03,079 --> 00:28:06,319
Speaker 1: It's called Against Helvidius The Perpetual Virginity of Mary by Jerome.

562
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,200
That's about a ten page essay that Saint Jerome wrote.

563
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,079
That's kind of like a perennial classic. But thank you

564
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:16,039
for that, Joseph. Did you want to say something, By

565
00:28:16,079 --> 00:28:17,200
the way, I don't mean to boot you. If you

566
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:18,640
want to keep talking, you're welcome to come back.

567
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 13: No, that's fine, Jay, Sorry, if I was not at

568
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,519
the mic when you initially.

569
00:28:29,039 --> 00:28:29,559
Speaker 9: I've been.

570
00:28:31,319 --> 00:28:36,759
Speaker 13: I'm Catholic, and I've been trying to like interact with

571
00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,240
Catholic groups that perish again and one of the things

572
00:28:41,319 --> 00:28:49,480
that I have run into again is how like people

573
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:58,720
seem to there seems to be no awareness of like that,

574
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:04,680
how easy it is to fall into spiritual delusion or

575
00:29:04,839 --> 00:29:11,240
self delusion. It's like there's no and like Catholics are

576
00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:14,519
getting into I don't know if this is because of

577
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,319
the Vatican Two or whatever, but like Bible studies and

578
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,759
subjecting yourself to the text of it. I've even heard

579
00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:30,599
people describe the documents of Vatican two this way, like

580
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,960
you have to meditate on them and let them speak

581
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:38,119
to you and sort of like it's almost like you're

582
00:29:38,279 --> 00:29:42,079
asking a text to take over your mind.

583
00:29:44,759 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 3: Like yeah, I mean that might be just because of

584
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,240
the Protestantization of Vatican two. I mean that's uh.

585
00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: You know, we focus and talk a lot, you know,

586
00:29:55,519 --> 00:29:59,359
about the texts and no stra tatan lemagentium relating to

587
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,640
Muslim and Hindus and all that, but we can't overlook

588
00:30:02,799 --> 00:30:08,440
the Protestantized elements of Vatican Two. For example, the Novasorto

589
00:30:08,559 --> 00:30:13,240
liturgy was quite literally concocted with a bunch of Protestants,

590
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:14,960
so you know what I mean. So it's like the

591
00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:19,319
liturgy itself of Vatican two is written by a Lutheran

592
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,599
an Anglican Banini who was a Mason, and a bunch

593
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,880
of other you know whoever, So there's this protestantization that happened,

594
00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:33,119
and you can also see it in the official acceptance

595
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,799
of Charismaticism from the Vatican post Vatican two, and those

596
00:30:37,839 --> 00:30:41,519
two components together. It doesn't that's a recipe for prelust

597
00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:41,920
for sure.

598
00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:46,559
Speaker 13: Yeah, And I the only reason I know about prelist

599
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,240
is listening to your show. I had never even heard

600
00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:52,079
the word before, and i'd heard of.

601
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,319
Speaker 4: I guess discernment of spirits before.

602
00:30:56,559 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 13: Right, that's something that discussed a lot in the Catholic

603
00:31:01,559 --> 00:31:04,480
you know, I guess the illusions or social theology. But

604
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:11,960
they don't they don't get into like the the real danger.

605
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,079
Like if you this this idea that you can open

606
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,359
up the Bible and hit there's a thing. You know,

607
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,000
you've probably heard of Alexio Didena, And I suppose there

608
00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:27,960
might be a or no Alexio Didena where you sit

609
00:31:28,119 --> 00:31:29,839
with a passage of scripture and.

610
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 4: Let it.

611
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 13: Impact you a certain way, and then I think it

612
00:31:36,039 --> 00:31:40,799
was invented in monasteries or something, but after a Vatican too,

613
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:42,440
it became popular to do.

614
00:31:42,559 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 4: That in like groups.

615
00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I mean that that could be a recipe.

616
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,279
I mean, I wouldn't say that there's anything inherently wrong

617
00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:52,720
with meditating on the passive Scripture, but I think it

618
00:31:52,839 --> 00:31:57,640
could be a recipe for, you know, something nefarious creeping

619
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,359
in for sure. So I appreciate that we're to move on.

620
00:32:00,519 --> 00:32:04,200
But so there's a guy who wants to come debate,

621
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:05,279
who's non denominational.

622
00:32:05,359 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: He's going to destroy me. I look forward to it, so.

623
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: I welcome him, and the link is in the chat,

624
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:15,119
so please tell him to come. He's more than more

625
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,960
than welcome. Here's the link again, and if you want

626
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,680
to support the stream by a superchat, you can do

627
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,240
so at the super chat link. I have to go

628
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,720
to the little Lady's room. I have to tinkle really bad,

629
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,440
so I'm gonna go sit down on the toilet because

630
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,920
that's the traditional masculine way according to the Hideth, to

631
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:34,559
go to the bathroom.

632
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,039
Speaker 3: Just joking, but I will still sit.

633
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,559
Speaker 1: Down in honor of Tristan. Tristan's here shout out to him.

634
00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:42,200
He's probably gonna leave now because I'm giving him a

635
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,279
shout out, but I will sit down the toilet to

636
00:32:44,279 --> 00:32:46,559
pee in honor of him, and I will be right

637
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,799
back with more of your challenges, questions and debates. And

638
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:58,599
I hope my non denominational destroyer manifests and meaning in

639
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,359
the sense of appearing manifesting demonic entities. You know what

640
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,079
I mean. But while I go t t while I

641
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,279
go tinkle, I have a little bit of a message,

642
00:33:08,839 --> 00:33:11,279
and that is our show sponsor, which is chalk dot Com.

643
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 3: Please listen to this.

644
00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:13,559
Speaker 1: I will be right back.

645
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,480
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674
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Speaker 1: All right, we're back. So uh now, who is the

675
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,239
non denominational person that wants to debate? Do we know

676
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:21,079
who he is? Let me check discord because maybe maybe

677
00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:29,800
there's something in here. Where's the non dnom guy, non denominator?

678
00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 4: Uh?

679
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:47,519
Speaker 1: Judah? Oh no, if his name is quote Judo, we

680
00:35:47,599 --> 00:35:52,440
know we got a serious Hebrew Israelite, Hebrew roots man.

681
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,559
Here's the link. Where's he at? Yo?

682
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 3: Okay, he says, yo here you are, come debate dude, yo?

683
00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah. All right, So we're waiting on Judah to

684
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:19,079
show up until he gets here. Let's see Midwest. No

685
00:36:19,199 --> 00:36:22,840
wait here he is hold on Midwest. So we're going

686
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:27,639
to go to uh, we're going to get destroyed. Judah

687
00:36:27,679 --> 00:36:30,960
says he's going to destroy me in a debate. Good,

688
00:36:31,039 --> 00:36:39,119
I asked for someone to come destroy me. Please, you

689
00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:46,599
got on? Mute man? Yeah, cub, what's up? I'm mute.

690
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:57,360
I'm mute man, Judah, you're on, I'm mute. Yeah, Huda,

691
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:08,480
what's up. We're waiting for you to unmute. Mini's Mani's Yahoo,

692
00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:08,880
what's up?

693
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:11,519
Speaker 4: Hello?

694
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, Yes, where's my destruction? I'm ready for it,

695
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,880
Come destroy me? All right?

696
00:37:22,679 --> 00:37:26,519
Speaker 3: So once yeah, you're eating.

697
00:37:28,039 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny, right, it's really funny.

698
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 5: So the only reason I think you're wrong is because

699
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:33,719
you don't read the Bible.

700
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:34,599
Speaker 1: Oh is that right?

701
00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:37,519
Speaker 3: We literally just lectured through the Bible for the last

702
00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:39,800
two hours. All this doesn't.

703
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,559
Speaker 1: Troll? Where is that funny? No bro, no bro, bro,

704
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:47,679
boot him from discord when you're wasting my time with

705
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,639
this nonsense. Oh, why you guys, somebody needs to get

706
00:37:51,639 --> 00:37:52,440
it back in the discord.

707
00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 4: And like.

708
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 3: Dan, these idiots, see, this is.

709
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 1: Why we have the hard hand did in the in

710
00:38:03,039 --> 00:38:07,280
the old days, we had the iron fist rule in discord,

711
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,519
and it needs to come back because these people just

712
00:38:09,599 --> 00:38:15,679
waste every time. And you notice that people they can't

713
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,880
even talk, right, Like the people who come on like

714
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,519
this with a bunch of damn food in their mouth, giggling,

715
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:28,480
they can't even talk. There is a vibe on get

716
00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:31,239
the food out of your mouth, get the get the

717
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,719
hot pockets out of your mouth. First, okay, swallow your

718
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:41,480
hot pocket and then make your argument. Hello, they done

719
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:42,000
for the meter.

720
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 9: You Are you drunk?

721
00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:48,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm drunk, even though I don't drink and I

722
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,239
hate alcohol. Totally drunk.

723
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,159
Speaker 4: You kind of sew in the intoxicated.

724
00:38:53,639 --> 00:38:56,079
Speaker 1: That's because I was impersonating the previous idiot.

725
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:04,519
Speaker 15: Oh so I heard you. You just finished debating a

726
00:39:04,639 --> 00:39:10,840
sneaker and the Muslim Lantern. What's your after thoughts on that?

727
00:39:12,639 --> 00:39:14,559
Speaker 1: I felt like the clip that I put up of

728
00:39:14,639 --> 00:39:17,280
the seven minute section on the attributes was the worst

729
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:18,039
part for him.

730
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 4: Do you feel like you got the better off the

731
00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:24,199
debate or on Yeah.

732
00:39:24,039 --> 00:39:28,119
Speaker 1: And I think the seventy plus percent audience reaction agrees

733
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:28,480
as well.

734
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 15: Okay, yeah, interesting because the other site thinks you lost

735
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,480
what you talked about that well.

736
00:39:40,559 --> 00:39:45,280
Speaker 1: As I said, I gave about twenty different options for

737
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,280
Muslims to come explain where he actually made a good

738
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,119
response or a good arguing, a good critique, and none

739
00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:53,480
of the people who I've asked that to have actually replied.

740
00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:57,159
So tell me where Muslim Lantern gave a good response

741
00:39:57,679 --> 00:39:59,880
or in what way his answer on the attributes was coher.

742
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 15: I'll be honest, I've just seen clips, you know, but

743
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:07,840
I've seen that is why I'm just asking you your thoughts.

744
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: You know again, I mean I felt like it was

745
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:16,960
a blowout. So have you seen the poll? Have you

746
00:40:17,039 --> 00:40:17,719
seen the poll?

747
00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:22,679
Speaker 15: Yeah, I've seen multiple poles. Some pools say you on,

748
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:23,920
the other pools say you lost.

749
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: Well, this was the poll they created, right, The poll

750
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,639
they created which they only wanted sneak Go's largely Muslim

751
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,559
audience to vote in, ended up being Jay seventy three percent,

752
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:36,400
Muslim Lantern twenty six percent.

753
00:40:37,679 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 15: Interesting. Yeah, the thing is what I've seen so far,

754
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,480
I feel like Christian's sided with you, and then the

755
00:40:44,559 --> 00:40:45,519
Muslim sides with him.

756
00:40:45,639 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: So that's what I've Okay, Well, so that's why you

757
00:40:48,559 --> 00:40:50,800
have to actually watch the debate and see who made

758
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,559
the better arguments and go and figure out. Now, go

759
00:40:53,679 --> 00:40:54,719
figure out whether.

760
00:40:54,599 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 3: He answered on the attributes or not, because that part

761
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:19,719
was pretty comedic. Landon, Hey Jay, can.

762
00:41:19,639 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: You hear me?

763
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 4: Hey brother, how you doing?

764
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 16: I got a couple of things to say. I'll try

765
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,679
to be uh those groups as possible, But uh, I

766
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,719
play uh, I play music for a living. I started

767
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,599
out in the church and all that stuff. Now I'm

768
00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:39,800
kind of doing find some fairly large like pop acts,

769
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,840
but like that's fun fact for everybody, wasn't musicians. Most

770
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,079
of the musicians behind.

771
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 17: Like pop stars and stuff like that that came from church,

772
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,599
predominantly Black church really but man, like a lot of

773
00:41:51,639 --> 00:41:56,599
my co workers and stuff, I've just realized, especially since

774
00:41:56,639 --> 00:41:58,840
becoming like an inquirer into Orthodoxy.

775
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 4: And whatnot, these do It's.

776
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,519
Speaker 17: Most of them, most of my like buddies who I

777
00:42:04,559 --> 00:42:04,920
play with.

778
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,039
Speaker 4: I do not believe that Jesus is God.

779
00:42:09,079 --> 00:42:13,199
Speaker 1: And uh and you're saying they're like evangelical praise and

780
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:14,360
worship people's everything.

781
00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:17,079
Speaker 17: Oh hell yeah, Well I live in Georgia, so it's

782
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:20,159
like good, okay, it's outside of Atlanta.

783
00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 4: I was like, six flags over.

784
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 1: Jesus is what they call, right, But they're all like

785
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:28,039
they're like evangelicals who don't even know that Jesus's divining.

786
00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 17: Is that you're saying, yeah, yeah, no, it's it's kind

787
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,599
of terrifying, But I just I don't know that all

788
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,800
kind of goes into Like I talked to a couple

789
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:39,440
of the pastors that I had thought were cool to

790
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,239
seek counsel from, especially since st firing into Orthodoxy.

791
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 4: Over the past year, and Uh. A common thing that's

792
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:48,079
been said to.

793
00:42:48,159 --> 00:42:51,079
Speaker 17: Me is, uh, whenever I bring these questions up to

794
00:42:51,159 --> 00:42:54,920
these dudes, most of them will look.

795
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,199
Speaker 4: At me like I have three ads. But the other

796
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,639
ones will be like, I think there's a common uh

797
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,320
desire for all of us to just want more, you know, and.

798
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,599
Speaker 17: Which I just think is a stupid response because it's like, well, yeah,

799
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,679
I don't feel like I'm getting I don't feel like

800
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:14,639
it's not about getting things, but I don't feel like

801
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,000
I'm experiencing what this whole thing is. So of course, ione,

802
00:43:19,079 --> 00:43:21,480
but have you ever heard people like say that that

803
00:43:21,679 --> 00:43:23,800
argument or that response that was a really my question.

804
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:27,480
I guess like if there's a response to yeah.

805
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,679
Speaker 1: I think it's very common for evangelicals, non denominational people

806
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,039
to get sort of burnt out and to feel like

807
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,119
they're not really getting anything out of that, and it

808
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,480
has no essential connection with history, it's not rooted in anything.

809
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,960
It's an authentic Yeah, I think that's a I would

810
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,800
I would say that's actually the experienced probably a most

811
00:43:45,559 --> 00:43:49,079
megachurch non nominational people, because I mean this was some

812
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,800
years ago. If you look at the studies, it was

813
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,039
like Pew research studies from some years ago, like megachurches

814
00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:58,360
have a really low retention rate. So they'll make these

815
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,000
quote conversions, They'll have huge numbers of converts and church

816
00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:05,719
joiners or whatever, and then within two to three weeks

817
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,440
the majority of them leave. So I think that's very common.

818
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,360
But I'm not surprised to hear that Protestant Evangelical, non

819
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:19,239
nominational megachurches are essentially abandoning basic Trinitarian theology and the

820
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:23,679
deed of Christ. Robert Hunter, I feel I frobatherly dike it.

821
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,039
Feel free to chime in anytime you want.

822
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:34,519
Speaker 4: Thanks. Yeah, that's we just brought that up the other day.

823
00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:38,239
I was talk with some prishioners because I forget how

824
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:42,920
the megachurch was was coming up, and I just think

825
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,880
about this, Like you said, Jay, its primary focus is

826
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,840
common consumerism and entertainment. Yeah, and that's only going to last,

827
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,480
like anything in life, for for a little bit, for

828
00:44:57,519 --> 00:45:00,000
a little bit, and then they find that they're not fulfilled,

829
00:45:00,119 --> 00:45:02,559
they're not changing, and they leave, which is probably why

830
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,320
you're seeing a high retention rate. To Another critique of

831
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,559
it is it's usually associated, as.

832
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 3: You mean, a low retention rate.

833
00:45:13,119 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, sorry, excuse me. It's also associated with like kind

834
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,079
of a cult personality.

835
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:26,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, the superstar pastor. Right, yeah, yeah, exactly. Somebody had

836
00:45:26,599 --> 00:45:27,000
a good.

837
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:29,679
Speaker 3: Comment here something about megachurches.

838
00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: Oh, many of the non denominational and megachurch stuff, as

839
00:45:36,519 --> 00:45:41,960
the commenter here has noted, are are openly like warming

840
00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:44,000
up to the skittle stuff.

841
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,199
Speaker 4: Who was the first one that kind of one of

842
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:49,440
the major guys.

843
00:45:50,519 --> 00:45:50,920
Speaker 3: Rick Warren?

844
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: Did I think Rick Warren?

845
00:45:52,119 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was when the Orange County he was like

846
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,880
one of the first guys, and you know, by Protestant standards,

847
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,280
he started off kind of run of the mill, kind

848
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:08,000
of right lower Orthodox, and then he started bringing in

849
00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:09,239
some wacky stuff too.

850
00:46:09,639 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: Well yeah, around the time that he joins the Council

851
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,360
on Foreign Relations and then it becomes pro Obama. He

852
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,400
does that stuff. Do you remember that wasn't I'm pretty

853
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,800
sure Rick Warren? Right, So he when he writes Purpose

854
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:27,519
Driven Life becomes this huge book selling hit. Then he

855
00:46:27,639 --> 00:46:31,800
joins Council Form Relations or right after or whatever right before,

856
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,920
and then I think I think he was like pro Obama,

857
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,000
which surprised everybody, and then.

858
00:46:37,159 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 9: It was really weird.

859
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,599
Speaker 4: He brought in Muslim speakers.

860
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 3: Yes, and then he's like, oh, by the way, now

861
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:45,519
I'm pro Skittle's marriage.

862
00:46:45,599 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 1: So that's when he flipped on that, which.

863
00:46:48,679 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 4: Is wild because if you if you know anything about

864
00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:53,840
you know, I don't know exactly what it is today

865
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,840
because things have changed. But Orange County, California was always

866
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,400
kind of a Republican, strongold right in a very blue

867
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:08,000
state you have from Richard Nixon, and so I was

868
00:47:08,079 --> 00:47:11,440
kind of odd that he and bold that he took

869
00:47:11,519 --> 00:47:14,119
that move. But if his handlers said that's the way

870
00:47:14,119 --> 00:47:14,800
he's gotta.

871
00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: Go, yeah, that's what I was thinking, Like, Yeah, they

872
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,880
basically said you're gonna do this now, Rick. And you

873
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,480
know that could have been because there's compremont, compromont or

874
00:47:26,679 --> 00:47:28,280
money could be either one.

875
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 3: Uh remember that one path who was that?

876
00:47:33,519 --> 00:47:36,920
Speaker 1: Remember that guy that got busted with He was w's

877
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:41,639
George Bush's mentor pastor, megachurch guy and then he gets

878
00:47:41,679 --> 00:47:44,239
busted with meth and and three oh.

879
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 3: Four's remember that guy?

880
00:47:47,679 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 4: Now what was his name?

881
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 1: Uh, somebody in that chat will remember him Bush spiritual advisor,

882
00:47:59,119 --> 00:48:08,360
mega church, meth metha church, megachurch, meth prostitute. Yeah exactly,

883
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:10,599
Ted Haggard, that's him.

884
00:48:12,039 --> 00:48:14,159
Speaker 3: Ted Haggard. So remember Ted Haggard.

885
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,760
Speaker 1: This guy with this he's got that weird uh creepy

886
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:25,719
evangelical smile. Let me pull him up here. Yeah, this guy.

887
00:48:32,519 --> 00:48:35,360
And by the way, it wasn't just meth. It was

888
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,480
meth and male young young males.

889
00:48:40,639 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 4: Wow.

890
00:48:41,159 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, accidentally shut down my stream here, hold on a second,

891
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:53,840
let me pull it back up. So pulling up Ted

892
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:58,800
Haggard was too much cancer for the stream. The whole

893
00:48:58,920 --> 00:48:59,840
stream collapsed here.

894
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 4: And then the other big one too is Greg Glory

895
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:04,320
and the Harvest Crusade.

896
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 3: Remind me of what's this?

897
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: What's going on with that one?

898
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 4: So if any of you seen The Jesus Revolution with yes, yeah, yeah,

899
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,360
and interesting enough about that film, it's I mean, it's

900
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,679
supposed to be about pastor Chuck Smith.

901
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,519
Speaker 1: And that's Kylary Chapel, right, that's COVID Chapel.

902
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 4: And so I guess you could argue maybe they really

903
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,159
were the seeds, the kind of proto.

904
00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:38,800
Speaker 1: Uh mega, oh yeah, yeah, good point.

905
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, uh, Greg Glory was the kind of protege

906
00:49:44,559 --> 00:49:48,280
of Chuck Smith. I went to you know, school with

907
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:54,039
his son, and he started this Harvest Crusade is kind

908
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:59,159
of a base name a Crusade. It's like totally on PC.

909
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,119
But they would have it like the Angels Stadium, these

910
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:07,920
huge like revival they bring in like Crystal Lewis, and

911
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:13,639
I remember Mel Gibson came to one and it's just

912
00:50:13,679 --> 00:50:16,039
a big show. And then, of course is that.

913
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 3: When he was promoting the Passion.

914
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,519
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you're probably right, yeah, yeah, I remember the

915
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,760
mega churches were inviting Mel Gibson to come talk about

916
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:25,679
the movie when it came out.

917
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,079
Speaker 4: Remember that, And then there's this big ultar call and

918
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:35,119
people go up. So I think that's probably the beginnings

919
00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:38,320
of the megachurch because that was Harvest Crusade was prior

920
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,639
to Rick Warren's Saddleback Church and someffing like that.

921
00:50:44,159 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 1: All right, let's see who's next now, guys, Remember it's

922
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,440
not Orthodox fa Q Day. You can always reach out

923
00:50:55,559 --> 00:51:02,719
to your people doings for those kinds of questions. We're

924
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:08,840
looking for people who disagree. Topics are Protestantism, Catholicism, Islam,

925
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:13,280
and then I listed some others Bible church history, Patristics, councils,

926
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:19,000
Quran revelation, Evangelicalism, arianism called Hebrew roots, black hebeers are lights,

927
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,119
all of those are on the table. So we're not

928
00:51:23,199 --> 00:51:30,000
doing atheism today. We're not doing Orthodox catechists today. Theophilis,

929
00:51:30,039 --> 00:51:30,440
what's up?

930
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 4: You know?

931
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 1: I'm mute?

932
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 4: Did you hear me, sir?

933
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:46,599
Speaker 18: I think I guess of the short quis I'm Orthodox,

934
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:49,280
but I retally have been struggling in my faith because

935
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,119
of the you know, it is like the Latinizer Ortholatinisers

936
00:51:53,119 --> 00:51:55,760
like you know, Jonathan Hill and Alan Brown and those guys.

937
00:51:58,079 --> 00:52:01,679
I wonder if you can comment on the conferensal to

938
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,320
theseus and what it seems to play about infant damnation.

939
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:05,599
Speaker 4: Thank you.

940
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't think it teaches infant damnation. I think

941
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,639
it teaches the deprivation of grace, and the deprivation of

942
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,920
grace does not entail damnation. This is why most of

943
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,559
the Eastern Church fathers are pretty consistent in saying that

944
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,360
the infant is not guilty of any actual sin. Well,

945
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,840
if actual sin is what places you under judgment, what

946
00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:29,800
actual sin have infants committed? There is a deprivation of grace,

947
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,360
but a deprivation of grace does not entail damnation. So

948
00:52:33,519 --> 00:52:36,440
when the texts say uh, and I would say, read

949
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:41,280
Paulazansky's book because father of Paulinzansky and is Orthodox Dogmatics,

950
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,239
has a whole section on why we don't believe in

951
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,840
the Augustinian doctri original sin. And again remember the Augustinian

952
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,400
doctri original sin is premised on the idea, as we

953
00:52:50,519 --> 00:52:53,039
covered about an hour ago in here, the notion that

954
00:52:53,199 --> 00:52:55,599
all men are in atoms in an archetype. Right, So

955
00:52:55,880 --> 00:53:00,440
the doctrine is massive dam nata, and the count the

956
00:53:00,599 --> 00:53:04,800
Carthage Canon does not say mouse damnata. It says that

957
00:53:05,159 --> 00:53:07,880
for the remission of original sin, that doesn't mean they

958
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,360
have guilt. You can speak of the effects of sin

959
00:53:11,559 --> 00:53:14,920
as if it's the sin, okay, So an infant having

960
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,360
the effects of adam sin can be called original quote sin.

961
00:53:20,039 --> 00:53:25,239
But that does not entail inherited guilt, and nobody teaches

962
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:30,519
inherited guilt except for Calvinists. Even Roman Catholics have discarded

963
00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:35,440
the doctrine of inherited guilt. So the only way that

964
00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:37,719
we would ever come to this position is if we

965
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,639
keep in mind the Confession of Toscythius and those documents

966
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,480
around that time, the other confessions. If you read the

967
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,519
Norman Russell book on the Translation of the Palomite Synods.

968
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:52,840
In the first chapter I think'st the introduction, it says

969
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:59,599
that Docitheus reprinted and republished the Palamite Synods to show

970
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,199
that they're reaffirming the Palamite doctrine. Palamas does not believe

971
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,480
that infants are guilty of actual sin. Okay, So in

972
00:54:07,599 --> 00:54:12,159
other words, it's not teaching Latin doctrines of inherited guilt.

973
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:18,679
The promulgation of the Palamite doctrines by Docithius himself proves

974
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:19,400
that he.

975
00:54:19,599 --> 00:54:21,239
Speaker 3: Had no intention of latinizing.

976
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: These people are all really making an argument on the

977
00:54:24,039 --> 00:54:28,000
basis of terminology and words. Even in the Pomazansky book

978
00:54:28,039 --> 00:54:31,320
he says it's not a problem to use the word transubstantiation,

979
00:54:32,159 --> 00:54:35,880
and what is it Doctheus also uses that term. It

980
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,239
just matters what you mean. So all of these people

981
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:41,880
hinge their arguments on word concept fallacies that this or

982
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,159
that Latin term necessarily entails and implies all of the

983
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,639
Roman Catholic baggage or the Augustinian baggage. But again, you're

984
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,559
not going to be able to find solace in Rome

985
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:56,239
because Rome doesn't teach this doctrine. So this is silly

986
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,920
ignorance from these people. If they want to try to

987
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,079
go to Rome, well guess what. Rome has even said

988
00:55:02,119 --> 00:55:05,760
that limbo of infants, which was introduced to soften the

989
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,760
Augustinian doctrine, that's not even something you have to believe

990
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,960
in anymore in the Roman Gelic world. So this will

991
00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:14,360
tell you what I'm talking about here.

992
00:55:15,559 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 4: And I want to point out to you this is

993
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,239
a part of a problem typically in the West. We

994
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,880
talked about this abstractionism, and you have to understand that

995
00:55:29,079 --> 00:55:33,159
Orthodox season is a life, it's an etho, it's arch

996
00:55:33,159 --> 00:55:38,679
Theology is not an abstract, propositional thing that can be

997
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:41,559
divorced from the life, all the way down to the

998
00:55:41,599 --> 00:55:47,519
parish level. And I find it really interesting that when

999
00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:51,320
you're in the parish, when you're going through catechises, none

1000
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:55,480
of the your priests and there might be an outlier

1001
00:55:55,559 --> 00:55:59,159
or some weird guy out there, but doesn't that say

1002
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:01,400
something that none does the priests are teaching this Just

1003
00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:02,079
the opposite.

1004
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 1: No, it's people who have no blessing to teach this stuff,

1005
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,480
and they're just running around the internet stirring out people

1006
00:56:08,519 --> 00:56:11,119
and confusing them. And by the way, in uh, there's

1007
00:56:11,199 --> 00:56:13,280
at least in the discord. We have at least two

1008
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:19,039
references to the liturgical documents which demonstrate that infants are

1009
00:56:19,079 --> 00:56:23,039
not de facto downed. So even the liturgy tells us this.

1010
00:56:23,599 --> 00:56:25,119
I can see if it's I know, it's pot in,

1011
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,119
it's pin in the mod chat. But let me see

1012
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,400
real quick, I can scroll back to it here.

1013
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 4: I think. But you have to. You have to keep

1014
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,920
in mind that there's all kinds of demonic temptations, and

1015
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,840
the one temptation is you're smart enough to figure this

1016
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,400
out by the text alone, apart from a life in

1017
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,000
the church, apart from the catos and the parish life

1018
00:56:52,119 --> 00:56:55,320
and all these various things, and you'll be the one

1019
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,159
that figures out the true theology. And everybody include and

1020
00:57:00,199 --> 00:57:04,280
all your priests are all heretics. I mean, it doesn't

1021
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,199
that sound demonic? And that's what these people, these Latinis

1022
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:13,679
are doing. They're out on their own, going thing through

1023
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:20,440
terry picking text contrast to the life and the consensus

1024
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,360
of the priests and the parish and the entire life

1025
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,960
is the orthodoxy, and they're going to correct everybody. So

1026
00:57:27,079 --> 00:57:30,480
everybody should see that that that's clearly demonic. It's clearly

1027
00:57:30,559 --> 00:57:34,360
a demonic temptation and these people phoning for it, and again,

1028
00:57:34,679 --> 00:57:39,599
as Jade pointed out, no episcal blessing to teach whatsoever.

1029
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:42,480
So I don't I'm it's crazy that people will even

1030
00:57:42,559 --> 00:57:46,599
listen to these people who are not even credentialed. I mean,

1031
00:57:46,599 --> 00:57:49,239
it'd be one thing if like, hey, look the credential

1032
00:57:50,679 --> 00:57:54,280
they have, you know, a theology or philosophy degree, but

1033
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:58,280
they don't have a blessing. Tho would still be wrong.

1034
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,559
But these people don't even have any formal training or credentials,

1035
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:05,280
and they're out there and everybody online seems not everybody,

1036
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,920
a large portion or substantial seem to be get stepped

1037
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,760
away and deceived by these people.

1038
00:58:12,639 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: So the Lenton Triotian and the Saturday Before meet Fair

1039
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:18,960
Sunday reads we should know that when baptized infants die,

1040
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,840
they enjoy the Paradise of Delight, whereas those that were

1041
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,920
not illumined by baptism, those born to pagans neither go

1042
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:31,039
to paradise nor Gehenna. And that is the Lenton Triyodian readings.

1043
00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:35,559
Speaker 3: And then there is the Lord's.

1044
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,760
Speaker 1: Judgment on on baptized infants and their parents from the

1045
00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:41,159
life of Saint Basil the Younger, and it reads the

1046
00:58:41,239 --> 00:58:44,880
Lord looked upon them, the unbaptized infants, and was enraged

1047
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,360
on account of blindness, not against them, but against the parents.

1048
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,239
Then it goes on to say the Lord commanded a

1049
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,199
place of rest be created for them, and a very

1050
00:58:54,239 --> 00:58:57,480
small enjoyment of eternal life, but not theosis.

1051
00:58:57,639 --> 00:58:58,039
Speaker 4: Is the key.

1052
00:58:58,559 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: So the speculation in the liturgy and in some of

1053
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,480
the church fathers on this issue is that they are

1054
00:59:04,559 --> 00:59:07,400
not partaking of Theosis in the Escaton, but they are

1055
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,400
also not condemned, and so there is a potentially a

1056
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,599
place of natural felicity or beatitude. And I know that

1057
00:59:13,639 --> 00:59:15,760
somebody's gonna say, well, that violates the statement in the

1058
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:19,239
canon that there's a third place. There's no third places.

1059
00:59:19,719 --> 00:59:23,360
It's not a third place. It's a place of resurrection

1060
00:59:23,639 --> 00:59:27,199
that is not theosis. So it's the same place quote unquote,

1061
00:59:27,519 --> 00:59:29,639
but it is not a partaking of theosis, which is

1062
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:35,239
only applied to those who are baptized in Christ and

1063
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,679
who live the life and so forth. So it's not

1064
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:40,920
an either or thing. And the other thing that these

1065
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,639
people do is they read these canons in a mechanical,

1066
00:59:43,719 --> 00:59:46,320
wooden way, and try to force.

1067
00:59:46,199 --> 00:59:50,039
Speaker 3: It into a Latin Augustinian framework.

1068
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,480
Speaker 1: And all you need to know is that when you

1069
00:59:52,559 --> 00:59:55,280
go to Bishop Irena, when you go to Orthodoxy Elogians,

1070
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,199
whether it's Pomazanski, whether it's Mayandorf, whether it's any of

1071
00:59:58,239 --> 01:00:00,320
the priests that are out there of Father Michael Little,

1072
01:00:01,119 --> 01:00:06,400
whether it's anybody else, the clergy, the they're all telling

1073
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,960
you that it's not the Augustinian view. So why are

1074
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:13,280
you going to listen to random goobers on Twitter about

1075
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:13,639
what they are?

1076
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,639
Speaker 3: It's just silly, like it's not a.

1077
01:00:15,679 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 1: Protestant thing where you go to random dudes, right, what

1078
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:22,360
would you say to that farther deacon, like who should

1079
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:23,079
we be listening here?

1080
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 3: Anonymous Twitter profiles.

1081
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:33,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's exactly why the prescription is live a life

1082
01:00:33,199 --> 01:00:35,639
in the parish. Now that doesn't mean that the priest

1083
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,840
is infallible, but that's the prescribed way you learn from

1084
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:45,679
the priest. And again you don't learn. You're warned against

1085
01:00:46,639 --> 01:00:49,440
learning from people who don't have a blessing to teach.

1086
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:55,000
And like you said, there's this consensus. So if you remember,

1087
01:00:55,599 --> 01:00:57,800
and I won't name the name, but there there was

1088
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:03,599
somebody who was struggling with the same think Augustinian original Sin.

1089
01:01:03,719 --> 01:01:06,000
And I said, what did you They came to visit

1090
01:01:06,079 --> 01:01:07,760
the parish, and I said, did you talk to your

1091
01:01:08,679 --> 01:01:13,079
to priests? You know you're you're a priest. If he says, well, no,

1092
01:01:13,199 --> 01:01:16,760
because he's wrong, I said, well, did he talk to

1093
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:20,519
Father Russell, our priest? No, because he's wrong, I'm like, okay,

1094
01:01:20,599 --> 01:01:23,960
so all the priests are wrong, and you're you're right

1095
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,079
because you were listening to this guy online.

1096
01:01:26,079 --> 01:01:27,679
Speaker 1: I mean yeah. And these are people, by the way,

1097
01:01:27,760 --> 01:01:32,039
who are usually like new right, not everybody, but in

1098
01:01:32,079 --> 01:01:33,519
the case of the guy you're talking about, and in

1099
01:01:33,639 --> 01:01:35,400
many other cases, it's like, oh, I was a Roman

1100
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:36,159
Catholic last year.

1101
01:01:36,199 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 3: I just converted this year. Oh now I have this issue.

1102
01:01:41,239 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Or I was a Protestant Calvinist and now I'm

1103
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:45,320
looking at the Orthodox.

1104
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 4: You.

1105
01:01:45,519 --> 01:01:46,360
Speaker 3: Oh, here's an issue.

1106
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,159
Speaker 1: It takes time to understand and study through these issues.

1107
01:01:49,159 --> 01:01:51,280
They're not solved in a You're not going to solve

1108
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:53,440
a lot of these issues in a year, two years,

1109
01:01:53,519 --> 01:01:56,320
five years, okay. It takes a long time to know

1110
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:59,559
and understand the complexities and the nuances of these issues.

1111
01:01:59,599 --> 01:02:00,719
Speaker 3: And let me give you another.

1112
01:02:00,519 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 1: Example of this if you go to the Roman Catholic

1113
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,480
website right Christian Vatican Bea and you look up the

1114
01:02:07,039 --> 01:02:11,320
infant Limbo Dogma document that I'm talking about right here,

1115
01:02:11,519 --> 01:02:15,159
approved by Ratzinger, Hope for the salvation of infants and

1116
01:02:15,239 --> 01:02:18,239
those who die without being baptized. You will notice that

1117
01:02:18,519 --> 01:02:22,440
the document itself from the Catholics. Which is the stupidity

1118
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,320
of all this is that these people are actually saying

1119
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,440
that we ought to look to the Roman Catholic position,

1120
01:02:27,679 --> 01:02:30,199
not realizing that the Roman Catholic position has evolved past

1121
01:02:30,239 --> 01:02:33,239
the Augustinian position. This whole document is about how they

1122
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:36,840
don't accept the Augustinian position anymore, and that you can

1123
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:41,920
hope for the salvation of unbaptized infants. Now, the document

1124
01:02:42,079 --> 01:02:44,519
goes through the history of the question and makes all

1125
01:02:44,599 --> 01:02:47,679
the points that I made that the Greek fathers typically

1126
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,039
did not think that unbaptized infants were necessarily damned or

1127
01:02:51,119 --> 01:02:53,960
had any inherited guilt. It then goes on to talk

1128
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,360
about how Augustine is the first to really stress inherited guilt,

1129
01:02:57,679 --> 01:02:59,920
the very thing that we always argue. So the irony

1130
01:03:00,159 --> 01:03:04,719
is that all of the locus of these people's focus.

1131
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:06,559
We ought to be listening to the Roman Catholics and

1132
01:03:06,559 --> 01:03:09,920
the Latin Church fathers, the very Vatican people that they're

1133
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:14,360
looking to about this stuff. Make our point in this document.

1134
01:03:24,119 --> 01:03:29,159
Speaker 5: And what's interesting, Like you said, it's not even a.

1135
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:33,239
Speaker 4: Roman Catholic mindset, That's what I'm saying, it's a Protestant mindset.

1136
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:38,719
Like well, I'm brand new, but you know what theology is.

1137
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,039
It's just an intellectual pursuit. And so I can just

1138
01:03:42,159 --> 01:03:46,280
read through these texts and I'll show everybody else they're wrong.

1139
01:03:47,199 --> 01:03:52,400
And but Orthodoxy doesn't work that way. Theology is not

1140
01:03:52,599 --> 01:03:55,159
divorced from the ethos and the life and the virtues

1141
01:03:56,559 --> 01:04:01,760
and a hierarchy, right, I mean this is it's ultimately Satanic.

1142
01:04:02,119 --> 01:04:03,360
It's anti hierarchy.

1143
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:29,639
Speaker 19: Stephen, what's up? Yeah, I'm mute man, I'm mute, man, Stephen,

1144
01:04:29,679 --> 01:04:30,079
I'm mute.

1145
01:04:34,079 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 1: Ev thirty six dollars seventy four cents Orthodox to build

1146
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:39,119
the Old tradition as well support.

1147
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:40,559
Speaker 3: The truthfulness of the Christian claims.

1148
01:04:41,039 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 1: Expound on this because I've seen some people ask how

1149
01:04:44,039 --> 01:04:45,400
you know what the old tradition is or that it

1150
01:04:45,519 --> 01:04:48,119
was kept. Well, we know that it's kept at least

1151
01:04:48,159 --> 01:04:51,559
as possible, because the scriptures were not written down from

1152
01:04:51,639 --> 01:04:55,280
the time of as far as we know, right Adam

1153
01:04:55,360 --> 01:04:59,599
to Moses. So how was that revelation transmitted? Well, as

1154
01:04:59,599 --> 01:05:02,159
far as we it was transmitted orally, and then it's

1155
01:05:02,199 --> 01:05:04,719
written down at the time of Moses. We believe by

1156
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:09,559
faith according to divine revelation. So God can preserve something

1157
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:11,840
in a written or an oral form. There's nothing that

1158
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,599
prevents God from preserving it. And then of course we

1159
01:05:14,639 --> 01:05:17,559
would say that there's many places even within scripture that

1160
01:05:17,679 --> 01:05:22,079
identify things that are oral or extra canonical or.

1161
01:05:22,079 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 3: Extra biblical as tradition. So something that's an.

1162
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,119
Speaker 1: Oral tradition, by the way, also can be written down. So,

1163
01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:30,800
for example, the liturgies are the best example of this.

1164
01:05:31,559 --> 01:05:34,119
The Apostles didn't write in the New Testament what the

1165
01:05:34,239 --> 01:05:38,559
liturgical worship is supposed to be. They complain about abuses,

1166
01:05:38,639 --> 01:05:41,239
they warn about this or that, but there's no liturgical

1167
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:44,840
service in the New Testament. Well, God seems to care

1168
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,400
in Leviticus how people worship him, so how do we

1169
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:52,679
know how to worship him? Well, I think providentially that

1170
01:05:52,880 --> 01:05:55,920
the liturgies were not in scripture, so that we would

1171
01:05:56,039 --> 01:05:58,239
have to go to the church, and that's in fact

1172
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:01,599
what happens is that the apostle in the various sees

1173
01:06:01,639 --> 01:06:04,960
the Roman Empire create and draw up liturgies based on

1174
01:06:05,599 --> 01:06:10,199
Jewish temple and synagogue liturgies for the churches. So by

1175
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:13,679
default you have to look to tradition for something like

1176
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:16,599
the liturgy, and that's one of the easiest best examples

1177
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:20,000
of an oral quote unquote tradition that eventually becomes written

1178
01:06:20,079 --> 01:06:25,840
down or or an extra biblical tradition. Other ideas, too,

1179
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:28,239
would be how we know what books are in the canon?

1180
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:30,559
For example, how do we know that Matthew the Disciple

1181
01:06:30,639 --> 01:06:33,519
wrote the Gospel Matthew, Well, it's part of the church's

1182
01:06:33,559 --> 01:06:35,679
tradition that he did. So tradition plays a role in

1183
01:06:35,760 --> 01:06:40,199
apostolic authorship, which plays a role in canonicity. Daniel Jay

1184
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,880
ten dollars, you should do the review on a debate

1185
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,000
with pints with a quinas. There was a Mormon named

1186
01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:48,400
Jacob Hanson who debated Trent Horne on the Book of Mormon.

1187
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:54,119
I'd love to see you debate him on Trinity versus Tritheism. Yeah,

1188
01:06:54,159 --> 01:06:56,480
I'm open to that. We haven't had any Mormons really

1189
01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:59,239
in the debate space that I'm aware of. I mean,

1190
01:06:59,239 --> 01:07:03,360
I'm sure there is somewhere a Mormon apologist or something,

1191
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:07,079
but yeah, that would be interesting. I'm not opposed to

1192
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,320
to that directly. Ten dollars. What's the difference between the

1193
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:21,800
Greeks and the Russians, language, liturgical expression, different cultures. Noah

1194
01:07:21,920 --> 01:07:29,960
m five dollars. If performing a correct baptism is enough

1195
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:37,440
for a valid baptism, I never said that. Again, there's

1196
01:07:37,519 --> 01:07:42,039
no rigid formula for this in a case by case basis,

1197
01:07:42,119 --> 01:07:44,079
And everybody who's a sperg or everyone who's a.

1198
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 3: You know, nerd, I'm not calling you a nerd.

1199
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying that everybody who has this Roman Catholic mindset,

1200
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:55,719
they think there has to be a one size fits

1201
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:59,719
all answer for this across the board. And one of

1202
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:04,760
the positives of Orthodox views of canon law is that

1203
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:07,800
we always strive to not have the legalistic spirit of

1204
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:11,320
the Roman Catholic Western mindset, where we think there has

1205
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:13,400
to be a one size fits all answer for every

1206
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:17,199
reception into the church. So I don't have any problems

1207
01:08:17,239 --> 01:08:20,239
saying that people can be received back into the church

1208
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:23,880
through purely through confession, or that the church can determine

1209
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:26,680
that if the Roman Catholic uh did it this way,

1210
01:08:27,199 --> 01:08:29,720
they can be received through chrismation, they can be received

1211
01:08:29,760 --> 01:08:32,159
through uh you know, vesting or whatever.

1212
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:32,600
Speaker 4: Like.

1213
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:34,880
Speaker 1: It doesn't bother me because I'm not trapped in some

1214
01:08:35,079 --> 01:08:37,880
sort of legalism or I think that the Church has

1215
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:41,680
to abide by uh, you know, canons, as if there

1216
01:08:41,840 --> 01:08:44,000
the laws are made for men, not men for the laws,

1217
01:08:44,119 --> 01:08:46,159
you know, since the exact same spirit as the Pharisees.

1218
01:08:47,199 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, Bishop Maxham and I was with dinner with him

1219
01:08:51,560 --> 01:08:53,720
his grace a couple of weeks ago, and we're bring

1220
01:08:53,840 --> 01:08:58,199
this up exact, this exact scenario. And I was talking

1221
01:08:58,239 --> 01:09:01,239
in class about it that think about in terms of

1222
01:09:01,319 --> 01:09:06,079
secular law, there's like the rules and laws, the canons

1223
01:09:06,159 --> 01:09:10,520
on the books, right, like this penalty or every judge

1224
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:14,560
has the ability to look at all the details. That's

1225
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,079
like the framework right from which they then moved to

1226
01:09:18,159 --> 01:09:21,800
consider all the details and they can adjust that they

1227
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:27,640
can suspend the penalty. They could, it's not breaking the

1228
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:29,960
canons to do that. And so Bishop Max and I

1229
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:33,920
were talking about this, and we were talking about what

1230
01:09:34,159 --> 01:09:39,319
Saint Basil did when he decided that yes, we have

1231
01:09:39,439 --> 01:09:44,920
this canon rule. But in this scenario it would be

1232
01:09:45,039 --> 01:09:50,680
bad to apply that and lose these heretics, the utah Cans,

1233
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,439
and you remember the other ones too, and so in

1234
01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:58,359
that specific scenario, Basil, in order to you know, win

1235
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:06,039
them over, we've decided to receive them through chrismation, not baptists.

1236
01:10:06,159 --> 01:10:08,239
That's a perfect example. That doesn't mean you throw out

1237
01:10:08,279 --> 01:10:10,199
the rule. It just means that's the rule in kind

1238
01:10:10,199 --> 01:10:14,239
of guideline which you operate by, and you can adjust

1239
01:10:14,279 --> 01:10:18,199
that given different circumstances, because we're not parasitical.

1240
01:10:17,920 --> 01:10:21,760
Speaker 1: Legalists, right yeah, I mean again, just look, the absertinity

1241
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:25,520
of the Romeancalitic position is evident in the fact that atheists,

1242
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:29,640
Muslims and Satanists can baptize you. So they divorce the

1243
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:33,680
notion of being catechized and given the faith from the baptism.

1244
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,920
Obviously we're speaking of adult tier. That's the Romecalolic position.

1245
01:10:37,000 --> 01:10:38,720
So all these people who want all this Latin stuff,

1246
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,600
this latinizing temptation, and understand that you're saying where that

1247
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:44,039
position actually leads to and what the actual rome Mecolic

1248
01:10:44,079 --> 01:10:46,199
position is. And most of these people can never even

1249
01:10:46,239 --> 01:10:50,560
tell you what the three necessary elements are to Romancalic sacrament, matter,

1250
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:51,279
form and intention.

1251
01:10:51,359 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 3: They can't tell you what that means.

1252
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:56,319
Speaker 1: They don't, They're just they're just being duped by other

1253
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:58,960
ignorant people on the Internet on the basis of so

1254
01:10:59,119 --> 01:11:04,199
called translation. But said people can people can be malicious

1255
01:11:04,199 --> 01:11:07,199
in their translations. Miloslaw five dollars. What about a pockets

1256
01:11:07,239 --> 01:11:11,439
stasis in Saint Isaac the Syrians view after Origin? So,

1257
01:11:12,039 --> 01:11:16,359
as I just checked, he died before six eighty one,

1258
01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:19,800
the Third Documenical Council in six eighty one is what

1259
01:11:20,159 --> 01:11:27,199
gives the definitive condemnation of the Originist view of the

1260
01:11:27,399 --> 01:11:30,479
Origin's worldview. Okay, so there's an there's an Orthodox version

1261
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:34,680
of a pockets distosis, which is just means restoration. I've

1262
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:37,119
not read enough of Isaac of Syria to know if

1263
01:11:37,199 --> 01:11:42,560
he teaches specifically universal salvation like Origin does, and that

1264
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,560
is condemned the Fifth Council, and that's condemned explicit. But

1265
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:49,640
the entire Originist system is condemned in the sixth Council,

1266
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,880
which is after one year after Saint Isaac the Syrian's death.

1267
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:59,560
So if he held to the Originist position, we would

1268
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:01,359
just simply say he's wrong. And by the way, I noticed,

1269
01:12:03,319 --> 01:12:08,479
Father Michael Palmazonski also mentions a couple other errors beyond

1270
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,000
just a pocket ostasis that Gregor of Nissa held. Oh,

1271
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,039
Gregor of Nissa held to the erroneous view of the

1272
01:12:14,199 --> 01:12:18,000
ransom theory being offered to the devil, and that view

1273
01:12:18,159 --> 01:12:21,239
is later rejected by many church fathers. So yeah, we

1274
01:12:21,239 --> 01:12:23,680
don't have a problem saying that Church fathers can make errors.

1275
01:12:24,319 --> 01:12:25,439
Many of them make errors.

1276
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,279
Speaker 3: It's a silly thing when Orthodox people try to have

1277
01:12:28,359 --> 01:12:29,920
this position that the Church fathers.

1278
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:32,560
Speaker 1: Never made theological errors. But I mean, they mean well

1279
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,920
when they make this argument, but it's just simply not true.

1280
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:38,560
In Palmazonski lists many other mistakes. So we have a

1281
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:41,159
super chet here. Let me see where is it? Where

1282
01:12:41,199 --> 01:12:45,000
to go? In Alan Siegel's book Two Powers in Heaven,

1283
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:47,439
there's a debate between Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Ismael. Yes,

1284
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:50,479
I read this part about the way that heretics interpret

1285
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,159
the multiple powers in Heaven, et cetera and Earth. This

1286
01:12:53,279 --> 01:12:59,680
distinction is used for the Sofia doctrine in regard to gnostics.

1287
01:13:00,119 --> 01:13:04,479
Rabbis asserted the distinction. Do you think there's an intermediary

1288
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:08,399
of sines and the essencerity distinction in the Second Temple period.

1289
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:12,680
If you read David Bradshaw's book Ariosol East and West,

1290
01:13:12,840 --> 01:13:16,000
he works through the usage of the essencerity distinction by

1291
01:13:16,159 --> 01:13:19,880
Philo and then by people in the first and second century.

1292
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:21,960
I don't know if I don't think he mentions any

1293
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,479
rabbinical sources. He may, I don't remember. I can go look,

1294
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:29,760
but that's a good question. I'm not well studied enough

1295
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:34,520
on first and second century Rabbinic Judaism to actually know.

1296
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:42,279
Elias Mikias one dollar was the thirty second reputation of

1297
01:13:42,399 --> 01:13:46,319
neo Platonic model of God, in which the one degrades

1298
01:13:46,399 --> 01:13:51,640
into emanations. I have critiques of Neoplatonism on my channel.

1299
01:13:51,680 --> 01:13:54,159
You can find those old videos. Matthew twenty five dollars,

1300
01:13:55,199 --> 01:13:57,279
thank you for being mean to strangers on the internet.

1301
01:13:58,199 --> 01:13:59,199
Speaker 3: Well, I seem to excel.

1302
01:13:59,279 --> 01:14:02,800
Speaker 1: I guess at the five dollars what It's a good

1303
01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:04,720
thing that you recorded the debate with m L because

1304
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,880
Snico's team muted you, and then I um muted you. Well,

1305
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:12,439
to be fair, though on my side of it, you

1306
01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:14,479
can hear that Sneko gets a phone call, So I

1307
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:16,399
don't think that he was actually trying to mute me

1308
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:18,319
in the open statement. It muted because he got a

1309
01:14:18,359 --> 01:14:20,239
phone call, and I did hear the phone rings, So

1310
01:14:20,239 --> 01:14:24,119
I don't think he's not lying about that. S L

1311
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:26,800
I D eight B. Where's the Holy Spirit in the

1312
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:29,399
Old Testament. I just did a whole talk on all

1313
01:14:29,479 --> 01:14:34,439
of the theophany references in the Torah. Took about three hours,

1314
01:14:34,960 --> 01:14:37,800
and many of those referenced the Holy Spirit. So I

1315
01:14:37,840 --> 01:14:41,239
mean you could just go to a just use a search,

1316
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:44,920
do a Bible search of references to Spirit in the

1317
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:47,239
Old Testament, and you'll see all those references.

1318
01:14:47,279 --> 01:14:47,680
Speaker 3: There's many.

1319
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:51,279
Speaker 1: I mean Moses lays hands on the elders and the

1320
01:14:51,319 --> 01:14:56,560
Holy spirits. There numbers eleven Holy Spirit above the waters

1321
01:14:56,600 --> 01:14:59,520
in Genesis, right, I mean, the Holy Spirit's all throughout

1322
01:14:59,520 --> 01:15:04,319
the Old test does it? Probably maybe a dozen ish places,

1323
01:15:04,359 --> 01:15:07,199
maybe more. I mean, we could look that up. Let's see,

1324
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:16,199
let's see there's a just just go watch my talk

1325
01:15:16,279 --> 01:15:18,279
on this because we cover these now, we don't cover

1326
01:15:18,359 --> 01:15:24,439
everything because I haven't gotten to the I've only done

1327
01:15:24,439 --> 01:15:27,479
the Torah references. But the Torah, the spirits mentioned in

1328
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:31,159
the Torah in many places roll six five dollars. What

1329
01:15:31,319 --> 01:15:34,279
is worse Muslim's calling in and saying the dumbest things

1330
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:37,199
like the young created can be generated into time.

1331
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:41,680
Speaker 3: Into existence, or the brothers that say that Jews are

1332
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:42,239
not Jews.

1333
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:47,039
Speaker 1: I think that Jewish is not a Jew, because I

1334
01:15:47,119 --> 01:15:50,760
think that's stupider than than what is being argued otherwise.

1335
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:58,159
Lerotheos Sliliakos eleven dollars eleven cents s Greetings, Jay, God,

1336
01:15:58,199 --> 01:16:01,600
bless you for your work. For the Greek person that

1337
01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:03,560
called an earlier, I would be willing to discuss this

1338
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:04,960
matter from Greek to Greek.

1339
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:07,199
Speaker 3: Send a message to me on Facebook.

1340
01:16:08,239 --> 01:16:12,000
Speaker 1: His name is I I E R O T h

1341
01:16:12,079 --> 01:16:16,600
e O s Erotheos Soliacos. It's a super Greek name.

1342
01:16:17,159 --> 01:16:19,680
Five ninety nine. What do you think about Putin and

1343
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:21,600
kissing the Kuran? Well, I mean, have you heard me

1344
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:26,920
making a huge deal about oh, Putin's super orthodox? I

1345
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:30,199
haven't made that, So it's unfortunate. I'm not surprised. I

1346
01:16:30,279 --> 01:16:32,239
think that's sort of the spirit of our age, is

1347
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,760
thinking that all the religions are kind of the same. H.

1348
01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:40,039
But no, I'm not surprised by that. It's unfortunate. Robbie

1349
01:16:40,119 --> 01:16:54,039
heck Music five dollars. Why don't you consider Catholics Protestants? Actually?

1350
01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 3: Saint Justin Popovitch.

1351
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:58,319
Speaker 1: Argues that they are the first Protestants, so that if

1352
01:16:58,359 --> 01:17:00,000
you read his book Life in Christ, that's the whole

1353
01:17:00,199 --> 01:17:04,840
this whole argument of that European paganism and papism.

1354
01:17:04,960 --> 01:17:06,840
Speaker 3: Chapters in that book make that very point.

1355
01:17:07,119 --> 01:17:09,199
Speaker 1: Logan five dollars, keep kicking butt, Thank you so much.

1356
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:11,520
Rootner twelve ten dollars. What do you think about the

1357
01:17:11,560 --> 01:17:14,119
Shroud of Turn? Is there anything that you take away

1358
01:17:14,119 --> 01:17:16,439
from it? I never really have looked at this as

1359
01:17:16,479 --> 01:17:19,439
a proof per se. I don't have any hard opinions

1360
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:22,279
on it. I'm fine with it being legit or if

1361
01:17:22,319 --> 01:17:25,479
it's not. It really doesn't affect my theology or my

1362
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:29,520
faith at all. But it's interesting. But you know what

1363
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,079
I mean, I've seen people, so going back to when

1364
01:17:32,079 --> 01:17:36,319
I was a Protestant, I saw Protestants trying to prove

1365
01:17:36,439 --> 01:17:39,079
with this, and then I would see the even other

1366
01:17:39,199 --> 01:17:42,560
Protestants debunking it. And so I've seen this back and

1367
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:48,279
forth for twenty five years. So I just I don't

1368
01:17:48,279 --> 01:17:51,159
really find it that interesting, honestly, But I don't have

1369
01:17:51,239 --> 01:17:55,760
a problem with it. We went to it on our pilgrimage,

1370
01:17:56,720 --> 01:17:59,000
although you don't actually get to see it when you go.

1371
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:03,199
When you go there, uh, it's behind all these glass

1372
01:18:03,319 --> 01:18:06,319
cases and you see a picture of what it looks like.

1373
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:08,239
Speaker 4: So I don't know.

1374
01:18:08,279 --> 01:18:09,680
Speaker 3: I thought that was kind of lame.

1375
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:13,840
Speaker 4: But it's like a national treasure, yeah, they say.

1376
01:18:14,079 --> 01:18:14,199
Speaker 5: Uh.

1377
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:18,279
Speaker 1: Father Vladimir said they display it like once a year,

1378
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:23,119
and that's because supposedly it degrades when it's exposed to

1379
01:18:23,239 --> 01:18:24,159
oxygen or something.

1380
01:18:24,279 --> 01:18:27,520
Speaker 4: So it was.

1381
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:30,199
Speaker 1: I found the experience to be underwhelming, honestly, but I

1382
01:18:30,359 --> 01:18:32,439
was also sick with like one hundred and five degree

1383
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:40,439
fever that that probably played into it. Patty Dog, what's up? No,

1384
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:42,119
maybe an one hundred five. I probably had one hundred

1385
01:18:42,119 --> 01:18:43,760
and two fever would be one hundred and five, I'd

1386
01:18:43,760 --> 01:18:45,920
be in the bed, but I did. I had a fever.

1387
01:18:46,039 --> 01:18:53,239
But what's up, man, J it's up?

1388
01:18:53,520 --> 01:18:54,039
Speaker 4: Carry me?

1389
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:06,520
Speaker 1: Yes, what's up? You got a bad connection, bro? So

1390
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:09,239
again today it's for objections. I know people want to

1391
01:19:09,279 --> 01:19:11,800
call in with FAQs, but we try to keep it

1392
01:19:11,840 --> 01:19:15,560
to people who disagree and objective. What's up, mel, I'm

1393
01:19:15,600 --> 01:19:17,560
gonna have to go pretty soon, so let's get let's

1394
01:19:17,560 --> 01:19:21,680
get these last few in. Yeah, I would. I think

1395
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:24,159
the highest I've ever had is one oh four when

1396
01:19:24,199 --> 01:19:26,279
I had pneumonia, and I did have to go to

1397
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,920
the hospital when I had a one o four, So

1398
01:19:30,119 --> 01:19:32,039
now it is probably more like one hundred hundred and one.

1399
01:19:32,119 --> 01:19:36,920
I mean, I was, I was pretty bad. But what's up, man, mel,

1400
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:37,239
I'm you.

1401
01:19:38,920 --> 01:19:39,039
Speaker 4: Hi.

1402
01:19:40,239 --> 01:19:42,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, I just wanted to point something out about the

1403
01:19:42,359 --> 01:19:46,479
Muslim dilemma. I think that they don't realize that when

1404
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:49,239
they say, oh, we believe parts of the Bible that.

1405
01:19:49,319 --> 01:19:52,600
Speaker 2: Confirm the Koran, I could just easily turn that around

1406
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,000
and say the same and say, well, yeah.

1407
01:19:54,800 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 9: I confirm the parts of the Quran that are in

1408
01:19:56,560 --> 01:19:57,319
line with the Bible.

1409
01:19:57,720 --> 01:19:59,960
Speaker 5: I know we're just had an impasse and that doesn't

1410
01:20:00,039 --> 01:20:00,560
mean anything.

1411
01:20:01,279 --> 01:20:03,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. You could you could argue

1412
01:20:03,359 --> 01:20:05,640
it that way. I mean, and again, these passages are

1413
01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:10,119
not ambiguous. We revealed the Torah. We revealed the guidance.

1414
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:13,279
Go to the Torah. We are ordained all this in

1415
01:20:13,359 --> 01:20:16,600
the Torah again, five forty four, forty five, forty six,

1416
01:20:16,760 --> 01:20:20,960
forty seven. Let these people judge, we have revealed it.

1417
01:20:21,640 --> 01:20:24,319
Look at the previous revelation. It's all in these passages,

1418
01:20:25,239 --> 01:20:28,680
and so so either way they go on the dilemma

1419
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,239
like you're saying, it's a problem. But we could just

1420
01:20:31,279 --> 01:20:33,720
flip it around on them and say, okay, so why

1421
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:36,600
can't I pick and choose out of your book what

1422
01:20:36,840 --> 01:20:40,279
confirms what came before? And then they'll say, because the

1423
01:20:40,359 --> 01:20:45,920
Koran is true, yeah, but that's what's in question. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1424
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:50,920
great points, Thank you, Mely. This is actually a good

1425
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:53,399
point because people miss under that Muslims don't know how

1426
01:20:53,399 --> 01:20:55,319
to debate, like ninety nine point nine percent. They don't

1427
01:20:55,319 --> 01:20:57,359
know what to do in debate. Like do you notice

1428
01:20:57,359 --> 01:21:00,560
when Muslim lantern did his opening statement and he asked

1429
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:02,359
me a question in his opening statement? That's what you

1430
01:21:02,359 --> 01:21:05,159
don't do that in debate, asking me questions like what

1431
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:08,439
you're okay now? But then when I start talking and responding,

1432
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:11,039
let's look at him talking, he will talk. He'll look

1433
01:21:11,079 --> 01:21:18,439
at him talking interrupt. Uh okay, So but I mean,

1434
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:20,439
have you ever done a debate before? You know, you

1435
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:24,399
don't start asking Q and A questions and interrogation in

1436
01:21:24,560 --> 01:21:29,319
your opening statement, right, So it's totally out of out

1437
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,479
out of a cord. Why do they come to you

1438
01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:36,960
for judgment when they already had the Torah? We revealed

1439
01:21:37,000 --> 01:21:39,800
the Torah, and then they have to come up with

1440
01:21:39,880 --> 01:21:42,279
this ad hoc nonsense of, oh, there's a secret Tora.

1441
01:21:42,399 --> 01:21:45,159
It's not the Tora that already existed amongst the Jews

1442
01:21:45,159 --> 01:21:48,680
and the Christians. You see how stupid that is. Obviously,

1443
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:50,640
the hearers who are Jewish and Christian can't go to

1444
01:21:50,720 --> 01:21:53,359
a secret Torah. It has to be the one that

1445
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:58,880
was revealed to them in their hands. Duh, this is

1446
01:21:58,960 --> 01:22:02,720
so silly. It's it's like they it's this is so fundamental,

1447
01:22:03,760 --> 01:22:07,199
and it's such a devastating point that they lose their

1448
01:22:07,239 --> 01:22:09,600
mind and come up with all this nonsense. Oh well,

1449
01:22:09,640 --> 01:22:12,199
actually it's all corrupted, so I'm supposed to go to

1450
01:22:12,239 --> 01:22:14,359
a corrupted book. Oh and then then we see the

1451
01:22:14,359 --> 01:22:16,640
problem with that. They say, no, there's a secret Torah.

1452
01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:20,600
How are the Christians going to go to a secret Torah?

1453
01:22:21,319 --> 01:22:22,680
And by the way, what is the evidence of a

1454
01:22:22,760 --> 01:22:25,159
secret Torah? It's just you're just asserting all these things.

1455
01:22:27,119 --> 01:22:30,920
And by the way, we have Torah and gospels from

1456
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:34,439
the seventh century and earlier, and they're the ones that

1457
01:22:34,520 --> 01:22:41,760
we have. It's not that difficult. It's a very simple point. Seth.

1458
01:22:48,359 --> 01:22:53,039
Speaker 9: Can you hear me? Hi, Jay, Hi, father, and an As.

1459
01:22:53,399 --> 01:22:55,359
I really appreciate both of you guys on you do.

1460
01:22:56,159 --> 01:22:58,319
I guess my question is.

1461
01:23:00,079 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 20: I'm coming from a Lutheran perspective, but I generally from

1462
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:07,039
what I've from what I've seen in the Orthodoxy. I

1463
01:23:07,319 --> 01:23:09,800
was raised Baptist and I've just been kind of trying

1464
01:23:09,840 --> 01:23:11,319
to read the Church fathers more.

1465
01:23:14,279 --> 01:23:14,319
Speaker 4: My.

1466
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:20,880
Speaker 20: I guess my question is, I don't know how to

1467
01:23:22,279 --> 01:23:26,439
reconcile certain things like I'm willing to conceive ninety nine

1468
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:30,840
point like percent of the theological points like the ES

1469
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:31,840
and senergystinctions.

1470
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:34,000
Speaker 9: I think it makes the Philly oquay make no sense.

1471
01:23:34,079 --> 01:23:34,880
Speaker 1: And I think that is.

1472
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:41,079
Speaker 9: I genuinely do. I agree with that more so. But

1473
01:23:41,319 --> 01:23:43,439
my contention is with something like.

1474
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:49,680
Speaker 20: The Seventh Ecumenical Council binding the consciences.

1475
01:23:49,119 --> 01:23:55,680
Speaker 9: Of people to act to doing something that that could

1476
01:23:55,800 --> 01:23:57,359
be idolatry. And I'm not saying that.

1477
01:23:57,600 --> 01:24:02,319
Speaker 1: Is that is what it is, because I understand, but

1478
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:05,159
anything could be idolatry, right, so reading the Bible could

1479
01:24:05,159 --> 01:24:09,039
be idolatry. So the fact that something could be abused

1480
01:24:09,119 --> 01:24:11,960
has nothing to do with whether it's a legitimate principle

1481
01:24:12,039 --> 01:24:15,840
that is binding. So if you read John Damascus's little

1482
01:24:15,880 --> 01:24:20,560
book Defense of the Holy Images and the book by St.

1483
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:22,600
Theodore the Student Own the Holy icons both of those

1484
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:26,920
are very short, small books. John Damascus's book focuses on

1485
01:24:27,039 --> 01:24:30,680
the philosophical side of iconography, and the Saint theoord of

1486
01:24:30,680 --> 01:24:33,960
the Studites book focuses on the crystological dimension of it.

1487
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:40,159
Those two books I think solidify philosophically and dogmatically why

1488
01:24:40,239 --> 01:24:42,640
we would do it. And then the book I would.

1489
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:44,760
Speaker 3: Recommend, actually don't have to read the book.

1490
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:48,640
Speaker 1: Our friend Lewis made a documentary called Old Testament Worship

1491
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:53,960
and Orthodox Christian Orthodox Worship in the Old Testament Orthodox

1492
01:24:54,039 --> 01:24:55,880
you Hata channel. It's a two hour hour and a

1493
01:24:55,920 --> 01:25:00,359
half documentary. That documentary is a summation of the Williams

1494
01:25:00,439 --> 01:25:04,800
and Anstall book, Hugh Wybery's book on the Byzantine Liturgy, and.

1495
01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 3: Basically it's just demist I'm gonna pull it up, man, Okay.

1496
01:25:09,239 --> 01:25:13,199
Speaker 1: It's just demonstrating that the the liturgical worship in the

1497
01:25:13,279 --> 01:25:17,760
Orthodox Church is literally derived from the temple and synagogue service,

1498
01:25:17,880 --> 01:25:20,800
and because it's derived from that, it is a natural

1499
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:26,960
outflowing of having uh, having images of natural outflow of that, and.

1500
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 9: That includes kissing and prostrating.

1501
01:25:29,399 --> 01:25:33,880
Speaker 1: Before absolutely the Israelies prostrate before the temple and before

1502
01:25:33,920 --> 01:25:34,239
the arc.

1503
01:25:34,359 --> 01:25:37,439
Speaker 20: Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean I'm definitely aware of that.

1504
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 1: Well, what I'm saying is that it's a holistic thing.

1505
01:25:40,920 --> 01:25:44,079
So the the idolatry is something that's primarily and first

1506
01:25:44,079 --> 01:25:48,800
and foremost internal. It can manifest externally, but what constitutes

1507
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:51,800
idolatry is not literally just the bowing, because we have

1508
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:55,520
in scripture people bowing before Pharaoh, bowing before Joseph, bows

1509
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:59,960
before Pharaoh, people prostrate before, bow before Enik andcuuse me

1510
01:26:00,039 --> 01:26:04,760
before Elijah. So it's the interior disposition to believe or

1511
01:26:04,800 --> 01:26:08,479
think that created things are divine or uncreated. That's what

1512
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:14,520
Paul says idolatry is to ascribe to created things for

1513
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:15,239
divine nature.

1514
01:26:15,279 --> 01:26:21,600
Speaker 20: In Act seventeen right, I visited an antiochid Orthodox church

1515
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:26,600
with a friend recently, and I was I enjoyed all

1516
01:26:26,680 --> 01:26:28,359
of it, but there was the part where we got

1517
01:26:28,399 --> 01:26:30,720
in line to kiss the icons. And I got in

1518
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:33,880
line and I was ready to do it, but then

1519
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:36,319
there was like this one tiny part of me that said,

1520
01:26:36,720 --> 01:26:39,600
I need to be one hundred percent certain before I

1521
01:26:39,720 --> 01:26:43,159
participate in this, just in case I'm in the wrong,

1522
01:26:44,039 --> 01:26:45,960
Because I'm not opposed to other people doing it.

1523
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:48,359
Speaker 9: My question is the binding of the conscience.

1524
01:26:48,600 --> 01:26:50,640
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, Luther had no Luther didn't have any

1525
01:26:50,640 --> 01:26:53,119
problem with this stuff, So I'm aware.

1526
01:26:53,119 --> 01:26:55,439
Speaker 9: And I'm not like a luther fanatic either.

1527
01:26:55,880 --> 01:26:59,720
Speaker 20: I joined the Lutheran Church in lieu of my Baptist

1528
01:27:00,079 --> 01:27:02,880
around because I said, okay.

1529
01:27:02,680 --> 01:27:05,399
Speaker 1: Well, okay, I got it wrong. Well, you know I

1530
01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:08,720
have I have two talks on iconography and the principles

1531
01:27:08,720 --> 01:27:12,399
behind it. I have Lewis's documentary here pulled up. You

1532
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:15,239
can watch that, and that would be what I recommend.

1533
01:27:15,239 --> 01:27:17,319
But those are great questions, and I understand you're not

1534
01:27:17,439 --> 01:27:20,279
in a position that any of us haven't already also

1535
01:27:20,399 --> 01:27:22,640
been in. I was Calvinist for many years, so I

1536
01:27:22,800 --> 01:27:28,479
totally understand. I had the same sort of hesitancies when

1537
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:33,159
I was going from Calvinism to Catholicism. Remember the first

1538
01:27:33,159 --> 01:27:34,119
time I saw a relic, I.

1539
01:27:34,159 --> 01:27:34,760
Speaker 3: Was creeped out.

1540
01:27:35,560 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 1: But you know, after a while, it's not gonna be

1541
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:39,039
a big deal to at all. But yeah, those are

1542
01:27:39,039 --> 01:27:41,359
the books I would check out. I got a few

1543
01:27:41,359 --> 01:27:44,000
more minutes here Inspire. What's up?

1544
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:50,079
Speaker 4: Hello?

1545
01:27:50,159 --> 01:27:50,560
Speaker 5: Can you hear me?

1546
01:27:52,560 --> 01:27:52,880
Speaker 4: All right?

1547
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:54,079
Speaker 21: Hey, j big fan.

1548
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:57,439
Speaker 4: I just wanted to ask for some clarification.

1549
01:27:57,600 --> 01:28:01,600
Speaker 13: I got kind of a little fight YouTube comments section earlier,

1550
01:28:01,880 --> 01:28:05,640
and I was concused of strong your position and I

1551
01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:06,520
really didn't.

1552
01:28:06,279 --> 01:28:07,319
Speaker 4: Mean to I'm just ignorant.

1553
01:28:07,319 --> 01:28:08,479
Speaker 1: I guess what.

1554
01:28:10,279 --> 01:28:11,439
Speaker 4: Could you explain to me the.

1555
01:28:13,359 --> 01:28:17,279
Speaker 17: On the concept of logic in God like logic or

1556
01:28:17,319 --> 01:28:18,359
God being above logic?

1557
01:28:18,399 --> 01:28:19,399
Speaker 4: Can you re explain that?

1558
01:28:20,399 --> 01:28:22,600
Speaker 1: Right? So if you read Maximus, for example, he'll talk

1559
01:28:22,640 --> 01:28:28,479
about the principles of the created order, like mathematics, geometry, logic.

1560
01:28:29,319 --> 01:28:33,439
These are features and principles that are created now. They

1561
01:28:33,560 --> 01:28:36,199
reflect the divine mind, and they reflect the Divine mind

1562
01:28:36,279 --> 01:28:39,279
in terms of the uncreated low gie for those things.

1563
01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,000
But we do not equate the laws of logic with

1564
01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:46,359
God or with the divine mind. That's a Platonic position.

1565
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:51,560
So for example, Plato taught that universals are essentially identical

1566
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:55,359
to the ideal realm. We don't do that. Maximus says,

1567
01:28:55,520 --> 01:28:59,239
universals are created and they can perish. This is a

1568
01:28:59,359 --> 01:29:04,600
specific distinction to Platonism from our position. So when we

1569
01:29:04,720 --> 01:29:09,000
say that God is supra logical. It means that the Triad,

1570
01:29:09,159 --> 01:29:11,920
the Trinity, and the mode of existence that God has

1571
01:29:12,359 --> 01:29:15,239
is beyond anything in the created order. There are things

1572
01:29:15,279 --> 01:29:17,520
that God can do and show us in the created

1573
01:29:17,640 --> 01:29:20,520
order that are analogous or that reflect Him, but they're

1574
01:29:20,600 --> 01:29:22,119
always pale and limited.

1575
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 3: And that's part of our apathatic theology, is part of.

1576
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:27,800
Speaker 1: The notion of divine transcendence, that there's nothing in the

1577
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:32,039
created order that perfectly matches up to the unique mode

1578
01:29:32,079 --> 01:29:34,840
of being of the Trinity. And that's why a lot

1579
01:29:34,920 --> 01:29:38,199
of times you can see this very clearly when you

1580
01:29:38,560 --> 01:29:41,319
enter into debates with say Muslims, who will utilize the

1581
01:29:41,399 --> 01:29:44,600
logical problem of the Trinity. They utilize the LPT to

1582
01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:48,520
try to say that, well, logic and analytical philosophy dictates

1583
01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:50,880
that you can only count in one way or name

1584
01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:51,640
in one way.

1585
01:29:52,079 --> 01:29:53,600
Speaker 3: And we don't say that about the Trinity.

1586
01:29:53,640 --> 01:29:55,920
Speaker 1: We say that in terms of the Trinity, we're counting

1587
01:29:56,000 --> 01:30:00,319
both by division and by identity. You see, so you

1588
01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:06,880
cannot subject God to being defined by the categories of

1589
01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:08,920
the created order, because then what ends up happening is

1590
01:30:09,000 --> 01:30:10,960
you get people who say stuff like Muslims do or

1591
01:30:11,039 --> 01:30:14,720
like a Roman Catholic like or a Neoplatonist that if

1592
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:17,920
God is absolutely simple outside of time and space, et cetera,

1593
01:30:18,159 --> 01:30:20,600
he can't be in time and space. It's a contradiction.

1594
01:30:20,640 --> 01:30:24,800
It's a logical contradiction. Or by the notion of Ariscitilian

1595
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:27,800
identity or whatever. Oh, God can't be a triad. It's

1596
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:28,840
a logical contradiction.

1597
01:30:31,840 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you. That cleared it up for me. Right.

1598
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:38,239
Speaker 1: So what we're arguing is that no God is above logic,

1599
01:30:38,479 --> 01:30:41,920
and only in God could you ground the principles of logic.

1600
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:45,319
That's a different position than a rationalist position, which says

1601
01:30:45,399 --> 01:30:47,439
something like God must submit to logic.

1602
01:30:48,800 --> 01:30:51,359
Speaker 4: Okay, I think that's where I was getting confused. I

1603
01:30:51,640 --> 01:30:54,159
like your analogy that used Jane, like if you were

1604
01:30:54,199 --> 01:31:00,640
to write an autobiography or if he wrote any or

1605
01:31:01,359 --> 01:31:06,199
created a piece of art, it comes from you and

1606
01:31:08,359 --> 01:31:12,880
it reflects who you are. But certainly you wouldn't say

1607
01:31:13,960 --> 01:31:17,920
it exhausts you. Yes, that there's a one to one correspondence,

1608
01:31:18,039 --> 01:31:24,199
that that's identical what you create and what reflects you

1609
01:31:24,319 --> 01:31:28,600
is identical to everything that you are. I always I

1610
01:31:28,680 --> 01:31:30,159
appreciate that you do that analogy.

1611
01:31:31,159 --> 01:31:32,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I forgot about that.

1612
01:31:32,960 --> 01:31:36,720
Speaker 1: That's a helpful thing, right Like if I if I

1613
01:31:36,800 --> 01:31:39,880
write an autobiography, it expresses things about me, but it

1614
01:31:39,960 --> 01:31:42,439
does not exhaust me. I am more than the autobiography

1615
01:31:42,479 --> 01:31:44,399
about me. And you can say the same thing about

1616
01:31:44,399 --> 01:31:47,359
anything in the created order that reflects God or reflects

1617
01:31:47,399 --> 01:31:49,880
that divine mind. It's always going to be limited in

1618
01:31:49,960 --> 01:31:56,560
its scope. And even even logic itself will note that

1619
01:31:56,960 --> 01:31:59,880
there are certain things that are paradoxes and a lot

1620
01:31:59,880 --> 01:32:07,960
of that can't necessarily be solved, that don't necessarily contradict. Right,

1621
01:32:08,079 --> 01:32:11,359
So like the tortoise, What's the thing? From Lewis Carroll.

1622
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:15,199
The tortoise and Achilles is an example of a logical

1623
01:32:15,239 --> 01:32:19,960
paradox that shows that sets are limited, Logic is limited,

1624
01:32:20,960 --> 01:32:25,319
propositions are limited. But even if they're limited and ultim

1625
01:32:25,439 --> 01:32:29,640
ultimately end up being self referential, they don't become contradicted. Yeah,

1626
01:32:29,680 --> 01:32:32,000
they don't become a contradiction just because they have these

1627
01:32:32,039 --> 01:32:34,000
limitations or become self referencing.

1628
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:36,800
Speaker 3: And this plays into the Gurdell point.

1629
01:32:36,840 --> 01:32:39,640
Speaker 1: But if you go back to the just look up

1630
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:46,439
the tortoise and Achilles and the logic paradox that Lewis

1631
01:32:46,479 --> 01:32:50,920
Carroll sets up. You can see that it is a paradox,

1632
01:32:51,680 --> 01:32:53,960
but it's not a contradiction. And I'm just using that

1633
01:32:54,279 --> 01:32:57,159
as an example from even within the created realm, even

1634
01:32:57,199 --> 01:33:00,880
within the domain of logic, there are paradoxes that occur

1635
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:04,920
that are not contradictions. Is that correct? I mean, you

1636
01:33:04,960 --> 01:33:06,920
know logic better than me, father Deacon. Is that is

1637
01:33:06,960 --> 01:33:08,119
that correct to what I'm saying?

1638
01:33:08,880 --> 01:33:17,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, there's I mean, if you just break down

1639
01:33:17,479 --> 01:33:24,920
the etymology of paradox, there's like a tension, but it's

1640
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:28,319
not a contract. I mean, contradictions are defined very specifically.

1641
01:33:31,399 --> 01:33:33,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, a contradiction would be like, you know, denying a

1642
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:38,439
fundamental thing, like, uh, the dog is not a dog, right,

1643
01:33:38,520 --> 01:33:40,800
so I'm denying the law of identity, right, that would

1644
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:44,319
be a contradiction. And to say that God, byas very,

1645
01:33:44,399 --> 01:33:49,600
which is what we're told transcends logical categories, does not

1646
01:33:49,800 --> 01:33:52,920
mean that he is a contradiction or that he's irrational.

1647
01:33:53,359 --> 01:34:07,840
He is supra rational Thomas. So again, I mean for

1648
01:34:07,880 --> 01:34:11,159
the people who are fussing about iconography, like are you

1649
01:34:11,279 --> 01:34:12,840
ignorant of how the Jews worship?

1650
01:34:12,920 --> 01:34:14,640
Speaker 3: Do you not know they had images? Do you not

1651
01:34:14,800 --> 01:34:17,159
know they had images.

1652
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:19,039
Speaker 1: All over the place, They had an altar, they had

1653
01:34:19,159 --> 01:34:21,840
an arc with angels, they had imagery all in the temple,

1654
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:25,159
and do you know they prostrated before the arc and

1655
01:34:25,279 --> 01:34:27,760
the temple. You didn't know this? I mean you would

1656
01:34:27,760 --> 01:34:31,760
call this idolatry because of your Protestant presuppositions. So your

1657
01:34:31,760 --> 01:34:36,560
gnostic is your position. You think that idolatry is characterized

1658
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:41,800
by merely bowing and prostrating when multiple people in the

1659
01:34:41,880 --> 01:34:47,479
Bible prostrate before other human beings, saints, patriarchs. You don't

1660
01:34:47,520 --> 01:34:54,159
know this, Jay Carino. If you're not going to come debate,

1661
01:34:54,279 --> 01:34:56,960
then then you can leave like it's this is not

1662
01:34:57,079 --> 01:35:01,720
the place for you know, what did the arc represent? Yeah? So,

1663
01:35:02,399 --> 01:35:09,359
I mean it defeats your purpose if they're reverencing things

1664
01:35:09,439 --> 01:35:14,359
that image Christ, just like an icon images Christ.

1665
01:35:15,760 --> 01:35:21,840
Speaker 4: So shouldn't you stop kissing your family members if you're

1666
01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:29,039
going to be consistent, because that's going to be idolatrous, right, Yeah, Well.

1667
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:31,520
Speaker 1: When they dedicate, when they dedicate the temple, go read

1668
01:35:31,560 --> 01:35:34,439
I think it's a Chronicles first Cornlics twenty eight. I

1669
01:35:34,479 --> 01:35:37,560
think when they dedicate the temple, all of Israel prostrates

1670
01:35:37,600 --> 01:35:39,359
read both accounts, because there are two accounts of it.

1671
01:35:40,119 --> 01:35:40,960
Speaker 3: In the Books of Kings.

1672
01:35:41,319 --> 01:35:43,880
Speaker 1: All of Israel prostrates before Solomon and before the Ark

1673
01:35:43,920 --> 01:35:46,920
and before the Temple. So I guess they're all idolatrous.

1674
01:35:47,119 --> 01:35:49,439
Even though the cloud with glory cloud the Holy Spirit

1675
01:35:49,520 --> 01:35:51,319
comes down, they're all prostrated.

1676
01:35:52,439 --> 01:35:55,399
Speaker 3: I guess they're all idolaters. But you guys are just ignorant.

1677
01:35:55,439 --> 01:35:55,560
Speaker 4: Man.

1678
01:35:55,680 --> 01:35:59,319
Speaker 1: Look, go watch the documentary that we have here. Christian

1679
01:35:59,439 --> 01:36:02,840
worship and the Old Testament. Everything that the Orthodox Church

1680
01:36:02,960 --> 01:36:08,600
does literally comes out of the Apostolic tradition from the

1681
01:36:08,760 --> 01:36:18,359
Jewish temple and synagogue service, except it's a Christianized versionwise Otherwise, again, guys, mods,

1682
01:36:18,399 --> 01:36:21,159
if these people don't come to debate, if they're just

1683
01:36:21,199 --> 01:36:24,880
here to spam, just boot these people. It's not a

1684
01:36:25,039 --> 01:36:27,760
vehicle for you to spam your Protestant stuff for three hours.

1685
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:35,960
It's an open forum. Offer to come debate. Let's see

1686
01:36:36,319 --> 01:36:39,800
next Andrata.

1687
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 3: This will probably be the last one.

1688
01:36:44,000 --> 01:36:45,239
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Speaker 4: Okay?

1715
01:38:03,119 --> 01:38:07,760
Speaker 22: So I am a Catholic and I'm calling in to

1716
01:38:08,039 --> 01:38:11,479
kind of just ask the question about, uh, the Orthodox position.

1717
01:38:12,560 --> 01:38:16,000
Speaker 23: So I've heard one of the biggest Orthodox arguments that

1718
01:38:16,039 --> 01:38:21,319
I've heard for Orthodoxy is that they maintain tradition and

1719
01:38:21,399 --> 01:38:22,680
they do not change in the.

1720
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:28,039
Speaker 22: Midst of societal change. But my question is, I don't

1721
01:38:28,600 --> 01:38:32,399
I think that some sort of change is necessary to

1722
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:38,840
kind of encourage people to worship, like, for example, like

1723
01:38:39,199 --> 01:38:42,920
the church teach like, for example, the Catholic Church teaching

1724
01:38:42,960 --> 01:38:43,760
on the death penalty.

1725
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:44,920
Speaker 5: Earlier in the.

1726
01:38:45,000 --> 01:38:48,359
Speaker 22: Church church's history they allow the death penalty, but now

1727
01:38:48,479 --> 01:38:50,960
they condemn it because now we have other ways of

1728
01:38:51,079 --> 01:38:54,079
treating criminals and punishing.

1729
01:38:54,279 --> 01:38:56,800
Speaker 1: Well, that just that just demonstra well, that just demonstrates

1730
01:38:56,880 --> 01:39:01,159
the fallacy a round Catholicism because it was previously argued

1731
01:39:01,159 --> 01:39:03,439
to be a principle of natural justice. If you read

1732
01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:06,000
the Catechism of Trent, that's how they argue the death penalty.

1733
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:09,439
So what this actually shows is that the pope is

1734
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:11,760
above even the natural law right.

1735
01:39:12,199 --> 01:39:15,199
Speaker 3: So I think that's a preposterous argument.

1736
01:39:15,239 --> 01:39:17,119
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to be mean to you, but if

1737
01:39:17,159 --> 01:39:19,319
the pope is above natural law and he can say

1738
01:39:19,399 --> 01:39:22,600
that the death penalty is quote against the Gospel, you

1739
01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:26,159
understand that that's not the argument that Francis makes. Francis

1740
01:39:26,239 --> 01:39:30,760
doesn't say that it's merely a brutal thing that needs

1741
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:34,239
to be replaced with more humane means of imprisonment or whatever.

1742
01:39:34,640 --> 01:39:37,039
He says, it's actually against the Gospel.

1743
01:39:37,159 --> 01:39:38,520
Speaker 3: That's Francis's argumentation.

1744
01:39:39,000 --> 01:39:42,520
Speaker 1: That's way out of field from the Council of Trent

1745
01:39:42,640 --> 01:39:44,920
and the Catechism of Trent arguing that the death penalty

1746
01:39:44,960 --> 01:39:48,399
is a principle of natural justice. So I would argue that, no,

1747
01:39:49,880 --> 01:39:52,680
we do not need to change our morals and update

1748
01:39:52,720 --> 01:39:57,399
our morals, and the Romancalllic Church just demonstrates its contradictions.

1749
01:39:57,439 --> 01:40:01,439
By then you notice the double standard here, right, because

1750
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:05,560
you guys will say that the Roman Catholic Church is

1751
01:40:05,640 --> 01:40:09,119
the guardian of faith and morals of the Apostolic deposit

1752
01:40:09,279 --> 01:40:11,960
But then it turns out, well, that can change when

1753
01:40:12,000 --> 01:40:14,960
it needs to. So it's sort of like you guys

1754
01:40:15,359 --> 01:40:19,520
allow yourselves the arbitrary ability to change whenever you want

1755
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:23,199
it to. Sell it. But then you'll argue against changing

1756
01:40:23,319 --> 01:40:25,760
and trying to argue that your position is a maintainer

1757
01:40:25,880 --> 01:40:27,199
of tradition when it suits you.

1758
01:40:28,680 --> 01:40:33,079
Speaker 4: Well, the thing is is that you know the pope. Well, okay,

1759
01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:35,920
I will kind of see that for the sake of

1760
01:40:36,079 --> 01:40:36,720
argument that the.

1761
01:40:36,720 --> 01:40:41,319
Speaker 22: Pope perhaps made the wrong decision and calling it a

1762
01:40:41,439 --> 01:40:42,560
violation of the Gospel.

1763
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:45,279
Speaker 5: But the kind of what I'm trying to get at

1764
01:40:45,520 --> 01:40:46,840
is not.

1765
01:40:46,960 --> 01:40:48,680
Speaker 4: Necessarily the changing of the moral law.

1766
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:52,159
Speaker 22: But for example, the novus oidl and the changing of

1767
01:40:52,239 --> 01:40:56,159
the Latin Mass and how the church changes, like how

1768
01:40:56,319 --> 01:40:59,159
it leads the mass and things like that. I don't

1769
01:40:59,159 --> 01:41:02,560
necessarily see how that's like a bad thing to kind

1770
01:41:02,600 --> 01:41:06,199
of change how we conduct the mass in subtle ways.

1771
01:41:06,560 --> 01:41:09,520
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I would say, you know what, if

1772
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:12,079
you want that, go for it. I mean, if you

1773
01:41:12,199 --> 01:41:15,399
want clown mouses, you want the all the things that

1774
01:41:15,479 --> 01:41:21,079
attend the novasorto, the puppet masses, the guitar masses, hip

1775
01:41:21,119 --> 01:41:25,880
hop masses, go for it. My new approach to Roman

1776
01:41:25,920 --> 01:41:28,399
Catholicism is no longer to try to warn them or

1777
01:41:28,399 --> 01:41:30,119
talk them out of it, is just to encourage them,

1778
01:41:30,439 --> 01:41:33,640
because I feel like at this point I mean, if

1779
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:37,159
you're really dead set on that, I say go for it.

1780
01:41:37,279 --> 01:41:41,039
Speaker 3: You're you're choosing your own curse, so have.

1781
01:41:41,119 --> 01:41:49,039
Speaker 1: Fun with that. Lex last one, if people don't have

1782
01:41:49,199 --> 01:41:51,319
the discernment at this point, then I just say go

1783
01:41:51,479 --> 01:41:56,800
for it. So yep, hey ja.

1784
01:41:57,479 --> 01:41:59,520
Speaker 4: So I am Baptist.

1785
01:41:59,600 --> 01:42:02,560
Speaker 8: But over the last few months you have basically all

1786
01:42:02,680 --> 01:42:06,079
my pre suppositions are just faded into mid air, followed

1787
01:42:06,159 --> 01:42:09,520
up on you know, your books, your suggestive books, and

1788
01:42:09,560 --> 01:42:10,399
your reading list.

1789
01:42:10,279 --> 01:42:11,600
Speaker 3: And that helped out a lot.

1790
01:42:11,720 --> 01:42:15,359
Speaker 8: But my question today is about order of theology. It's

1791
01:42:15,600 --> 01:42:17,439
something that you bring up in your videos and you

1792
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:20,359
talk about how a lot of Protestants have an improper

1793
01:42:20,600 --> 01:42:23,800
order of theology, saying that they start from their soteriology.

1794
01:42:23,960 --> 01:42:24,079
Speaker 4: Right.

1795
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:27,640
Speaker 1: Well, actually many of them, if they're Calvinists, will start

1796
01:42:27,640 --> 01:42:32,399
from the Divine Decree and then work to materialogy. Yeah.

1797
01:42:32,680 --> 01:42:35,760
Speaker 8: So I've noticed that's exactly right, and I think that's trying.

1798
01:42:36,000 --> 01:42:38,079
What I'm trying to get at here is you mentioned that,

1799
01:42:38,159 --> 01:42:40,920
like the Trinity is probably the first place to start,

1800
01:42:41,039 --> 01:42:43,760
and then Christology and then everything should come out from

1801
01:42:43,800 --> 01:42:44,239
the Trinity.

1802
01:42:44,319 --> 01:42:46,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and it's not it's not accidental that the

1803
01:42:46,840 --> 01:42:49,039
history of the Church providentially did that very thing.

1804
01:42:51,159 --> 01:42:52,039
Speaker 4: Oh okay, all right.

1805
01:42:52,199 --> 01:42:55,760
Speaker 1: I mean the acumenical councils begin with nicea and constantin

1806
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:59,319
uple one being Trinity, and you do Christ right, and

1807
01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:02,600
then the all the successive ecumenical councils, even the seventh

1808
01:43:02,680 --> 01:43:03,840
are all about Christology.

1809
01:43:05,239 --> 01:43:06,640
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, That's what I was trying to get at,

1810
01:43:06,720 --> 01:43:10,920
is what principle do we use to properly find like

1811
01:43:10,960 --> 01:43:12,239
the right order of theology.

1812
01:43:12,359 --> 01:43:14,840
Speaker 4: So would you say it's like a historical Well, I.

1813
01:43:14,840 --> 01:43:18,640
Speaker 1: Think, providentially it's that. But I think just even in

1814
01:43:18,800 --> 01:43:22,119
terms of divine revelation, obviously God and His and the

1815
01:43:22,199 --> 01:43:26,279
incarnation are first. I just I think divine revelation presupposes

1816
01:43:26,319 --> 01:43:27,199
and reveals.

1817
01:43:26,880 --> 01:43:31,439
Speaker 8: That, okay, because it makes sense intuitive intuitively to me.

1818
01:43:31,560 --> 01:43:32,359
Speaker 1: Also, yeah, of.

1819
01:43:32,359 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 9: Course, yeah.

1820
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:36,119
Speaker 1: I mean when Jesus comes the majority, especially in the

1821
01:43:36,159 --> 01:43:39,760
Gospel of John, of his of his discussions are about

1822
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:41,840
the relationship of him to the Father and the Spirit.

1823
01:43:41,920 --> 01:43:44,640
I mean, that's we've already seen that. When I lecture

1824
01:43:44,640 --> 01:43:46,600
through the totality of the Gospel of John, every chapter

1825
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:50,079
of the Gospel of John is a has references to

1826
01:43:50,359 --> 01:43:52,720
the deedy of Christ and or the Trinity in every chapter.

1827
01:43:53,199 --> 01:43:57,000
So that's the locus of John the Theologian's emphasis.

1828
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:00,119
Speaker 3: And uh, you know it's the most.

1829
01:44:00,199 --> 01:44:04,880
Speaker 1: Quote trinitarian of the books, the Gospels. So yeah, I

1830
01:44:04,920 --> 01:44:08,800
mean that the scriptures are our guide. Uh, that's where

1831
01:44:08,840 --> 01:44:13,359
we're gonna start our theology. Now, how does Thomas Aquinas

1832
01:44:13,399 --> 01:44:17,039
begin his theology? Oh, we've got five volumes of Zoomicundridge

1833
01:44:17,079 --> 01:44:21,560
and telays based around philosophical speculations about simplicity and blah

1834
01:44:21,560 --> 01:44:22,399
blah blah blah blah.

1835
01:44:22,680 --> 01:44:25,119
Speaker 3: Where does John Damascus begin on the Orthodox faith?

1836
01:44:25,319 --> 01:44:25,720
Speaker 1: Trinity?

1837
01:44:28,199 --> 01:44:30,680
Speaker 3: First thing that he talks about on the Orthodox faith Trinity?

1838
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:33,199
Speaker 4: Cool?

1839
01:44:33,239 --> 01:44:35,960
Speaker 1: All right, thank you very yeah man, thank you. Yeah,

1840
01:44:35,960 --> 01:44:38,439
I'm gonna have to run. Thank you guys. Great discussions today,

1841
01:44:39,079 --> 01:44:43,239
a lot of fun. Had some feisty, feisty Muslim talks.

1842
01:44:43,279 --> 01:44:46,000
The beginning use of one dollar you help me convert

1843
01:44:46,079 --> 01:44:49,760
from Islam. Muslims passed through Hell for certain amounts of time.

1844
01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:52,760
I've heard this. I've heard some of them say that

1845
01:44:52,920 --> 01:44:55,800
for like Christians and Jews, Hell is eternal, but for

1846
01:44:55,920 --> 01:45:00,239
some people it's temporal. I have heard this is a

1847
01:45:00,359 --> 01:45:04,520
verse in sur nineteen seventy one.

1848
01:45:04,680 --> 01:45:06,760
Speaker 3: Let's see you're asking, I'm not sure off top of

1849
01:45:06,800 --> 01:45:07,039
my head.

1850
01:45:07,079 --> 01:45:18,039
Speaker 1: Let's look it up nineteen seventy one. So for those

1851
01:45:18,119 --> 01:45:21,000
that are interested, I think Jamie, my wife is she's

1852
01:45:21,039 --> 01:45:25,119
going to be doing a livestream on something. I forget

1853
01:45:25,159 --> 01:45:31,439
what she says. I'm a conspiratoral I forget what Allah.

1854
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:34,479
Let's see, we alla truly know best. We truly know

1855
01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:41,680
best who deserves the burning. There is none of you

1856
01:45:41,720 --> 01:45:42,760
who will not pass it.

1857
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:44,720
Speaker 3: This is a decree.

1858
01:45:45,479 --> 01:45:50,000
Speaker 1: We will deliver those who were devout, leaving wrongdoers on

1859
01:45:50,079 --> 01:45:53,920
their knees. Yeah, I was. I was starting the Koran

1860
01:45:54,000 --> 01:45:56,239
again the other day from the beginning, and it's it's

1861
01:45:56,279 --> 01:46:01,319
interesting that it begins with eschatological things. So the Quran

1862
01:46:01,439 --> 01:46:03,159
kind of begins talking about the end of the world

1863
01:46:03,279 --> 01:46:06,399
and judgment and destruction. Sam Schmun has a great video,

1864
01:46:06,439 --> 01:46:10,399
by the way, pointing out how which one is it.

1865
01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:16,039
It's two, two and ten and eighty nine, twenty one

1866
01:46:16,079 --> 01:46:20,319
to twenty three, and then the attending Hadiith eighteen.

1867
01:46:20,079 --> 01:46:21,199
Speaker 3: Forty of Sahi Muslim.

1868
01:46:21,239 --> 01:46:23,600
Speaker 1: I think all of that when you read those three,

1869
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:26,479
those two passages from the Kuran and then Hadith, they're

1870
01:46:26,560 --> 01:46:31,279
literally cribbed, especially the Hadith word for word from Matthew

1871
01:46:31,319 --> 01:46:33,760
twenty five thirty one to forty six. Now, if we

1872
01:46:33,840 --> 01:46:35,720
follow the logic of the Muslims who called in to

1873
01:46:35,800 --> 01:46:39,840
begin with Platonism, all the neoplatonisms they believe is not

1874
01:46:39,960 --> 01:46:43,319
from Plato and the Neoplatonists. So in the same way,

1875
01:46:43,640 --> 01:46:46,720
even though Matthew twenty five thirty one to forty six

1876
01:46:47,000 --> 01:46:51,399
is centuries before the Quran and the Hagheith, h, no,

1877
01:46:51,520 --> 01:46:53,760
these are not cribbed. I mean, it's it's that silly, right,

1878
01:46:53,800 --> 01:46:57,720
I mean, obviously, if it's word for word cribbed from

1879
01:46:57,760 --> 01:47:00,600
Matthew twenty five thirty one to forty six, and if

1880
01:47:00,640 --> 01:47:04,439
this identifies Jesus as God and Jesus as a law,

1881
01:47:04,479 --> 01:47:06,880
if Muslims are going to be consistent, then they have

1882
01:47:07,039 --> 01:47:10,960
to recognize Jesus as God. Let me pull up the

1883
01:47:12,560 --> 01:47:14,199
that was just something that popped in up that that's

1884
01:47:14,239 --> 01:47:19,319
not related to this verse, but to this section. That's

1885
01:47:19,520 --> 01:47:23,399
a separate argument. Let me find that because this is

1886
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,640
actually a really good argument. Now, not every Muslim would't

1887
01:47:26,640 --> 01:47:29,560
necessarily go down this route, because they might take a

1888
01:47:29,640 --> 01:47:35,000
different route. Because let's see, how can I find that?

1889
01:47:35,159 --> 01:47:39,079
Let me find this This was a really strong argument

1890
01:47:39,760 --> 01:47:43,119
that Sam Chumun had. Let me find it. Won't take

1891
01:47:43,199 --> 01:47:46,920
a second. It's in my it's in my history. Here,

1892
01:47:47,279 --> 01:47:51,479
let's see. I got it pulled up on my phone.

1893
01:47:51,560 --> 01:48:05,640
I think. Let's see. Yeah, here it is.

1894
01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:07,520
Speaker 21: It's off of about luck, because that's what Jesus said

1895
01:48:07,600 --> 01:48:10,279
he's going to do when he comes to judge everyone,

1896
01:48:10,319 --> 01:48:11,159
including Mohammad.

1897
01:48:11,319 --> 01:48:13,439
Speaker 4: Matthew twenty five thirty one to forty six.

1898
01:48:14,279 --> 01:48:18,680
Speaker 9: Matthew twenty five thirty one to thirty six. This is

1899
01:48:18,840 --> 01:48:19,319
Jesus speaking.

1900
01:48:19,319 --> 01:48:20,760
Speaker 21: If you want to read versus puils or he has

1901
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:22,840
no doubt that Matthew is recording with Jesus.

1902
01:48:23,359 --> 01:48:25,439
Speaker 4: This is not big gasps, right yep.

1903
01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:28,159
Speaker 9: Now going to John John would be the cremation.

1904
01:48:28,720 --> 01:48:31,920
Speaker 21: This is no funeral service. Johnazen Fratthey twenty five thirty

1905
01:48:31,960 --> 01:48:32,520
one forty six.

1906
01:48:33,439 --> 01:48:38,439
Speaker 17: All right, Matthew, Chapter twenty five versus forty one forty six.

1907
01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:39,279
Speaker 5: I'll try this.

1908
01:48:39,319 --> 01:48:41,239
Speaker 1: Again, bro this one second. I'm trying to sho.

1909
01:48:41,920 --> 01:48:43,239
Speaker 4: I don't know what is about you and Hussey.

1910
01:48:43,279 --> 01:48:47,600
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get this video. It's a really good

1911
01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:49,000
argument related to this topic.

1912
01:48:49,960 --> 01:49:04,239
Speaker 4: Here it is. It's thirty six.

1913
01:49:06,000 --> 01:49:07,880
Speaker 21: That's Jesus speaking if you want to read Versus us

1914
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:10,239
or he has no doubt that nephew is recording with Jesus.

1915
01:49:10,800 --> 01:49:12,039
Speaker 4: It's not good Mass was read.

1916
01:49:13,199 --> 01:49:14,039
Speaker 3: Okay, there's the video.

1917
01:49:14,319 --> 01:49:17,319
Speaker 1: It's Sam Schumann with God logic heated Muslim panics after

1918
01:49:17,359 --> 01:49:20,159
Christian per Jesus is God? Uh from the ones I

1919
01:49:20,279 --> 01:49:22,800
listed there. All right, everybody, have a good night.

1920
01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:22,960
Speaker 4: Now.

1921
01:49:23,000 --> 01:49:25,560
Speaker 1: You can also come watch Jamie do her live stream

1922
01:49:25,680 --> 01:49:28,439
on twentieth Century six six six ed it awesome. See

1923
01:49:28,439 --> 01:49:28,560
got