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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Rich and I'm Tina.

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<v Speaker 2>If there's one thing we've learned in over twenty years

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<v Speaker 2>of marriage, it's.

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<v Speaker 1>That some days you'll feel like killing your husband, and.

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<v Speaker 2>Some days you'll feel like killing your wife.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Love Mary Kill.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey you, Tina, Hey Rich. How are you today?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm good? How are you?

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<v Speaker 2>I am doing good. I'm happy to be in the

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<v Speaker 2>recording studio here with you for the next two or

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<v Speaker 2>three hours.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it takes longer than people think.

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<v Speaker 2>It's fun, though we could spend quality time together.

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<v Speaker 1>I haven't seen you yet today. You look good. You're

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<v Speaker 1>looking good, you have good color.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks, you look good.

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<v Speaker 1>At your face. Light blue shirt on.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I really like your yellow shirt. You're looking very

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<v Speaker 2>bright and spring like, even though it's not that spring

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<v Speaker 2>like outside.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a nice no, it's a lovely spring day. Yeah

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<v Speaker 1>sixty three. Yeah, you're right, yesterday was a little dreary.

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<v Speaker 2>But before we go any further, we've and remiss in

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<v Speaker 2>congratulating the champions of our Love Mary Madness NCAA tournament.

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<v Speaker 2>It was done a while ago. We talked about it.

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<v Speaker 2>It was fun.

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<v Speaker 1>It's May.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, but we should give a shout out to

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<v Speaker 2>our winners. Our women's bracket winner was Jennifer H. Men's

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<v Speaker 2>bracket winner was Zachary M and our overall winner. The

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<v Speaker 2>best overall score for both the men's and women's was

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<v Speaker 2>Philip A. Congratulations.

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<v Speaker 1>Truths that we have some male listeners or were these

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<v Speaker 1>husbands of our email listener? I don't know, I know

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<v Speaker 1>we Well, how about the worst bracket? They deserve a

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<v Speaker 1>call out too, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't. I didn't want to embarrass anybody, but the.

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<v Speaker 1>Most anyone has anything to be embarrassed.

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<v Speaker 2>The most disastrous bracket for the women's was Luisa L.

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<v Speaker 2>And the most disastrous bracket for the men's was Brittany H. Congratulations.

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<v Speaker 2>We went on a little adventure yesterday to Irish Hills, Michigan.

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<v Speaker 2>So on the bonus episode that we recorded a few

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<v Speaker 2>days ago, we talked about Irish Hills because the couple

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<v Speaker 2>involved were from there. It's about forty five.

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<v Speaker 1>Minutes from us, exactly forty five minutes from yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Little kind of touristy sort of town. I used to

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<v Speaker 2>go there all the time as a kid, and it

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<v Speaker 2>was a lot of fun. They had like miniature golf

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<v Speaker 2>courses and kind of these cheesy roadside attractions. It's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of become a little bit of a ghost town over

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<v Speaker 2>the last several years. But we talked about the mystery

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<v Speaker 2>spot and how you had never been to a mystery spot.

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<v Speaker 1>And because every time we drive by a mystery spot,

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<v Speaker 1>you're like, oh, we don't need to stop, we need

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<v Speaker 1>to keep we need to keep going.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, we've got time to make it to our destination.

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<v Speaker 2>But our dear friend Adrian sent us a note and

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<v Speaker 2>said the mystery Spot in Irish Hills is for sale. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and we were like, well, we got to go, we

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<v Speaker 2>got to go check it out. Maybe we should buy it.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, you were very serious about potentially buying the mystery Spot,

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<v Speaker 1>which is not called the Mystery Spot, it's.

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<v Speaker 2>Called the Mystery Hill. Yeah, there is mystery spot is

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<v Speaker 2>the one up in northern.

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<v Speaker 1>Michigan, but by Mechanos City.

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<v Speaker 2>So we drove out there and it was closed.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but we broke in. Yeah, here's a question for you.

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<v Speaker 1>Would you have broken And if I didn't insist we

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<v Speaker 1>broke in, I think.

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<v Speaker 2>I would have because it was pretty like there weren't

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of people around. There was it wasn't hard

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<v Speaker 2>to get out, it was just walking, stepping over a

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<v Speaker 2>you know chain across the gate, you know, of the

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<v Speaker 2>parking lot. And it wasn't like an indoor attraction. It

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<v Speaker 2>was sort of most of it was kind of outdoors.

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<v Speaker 2>So we walked through it, and.

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<v Speaker 1>We did walk through the Mystery Spot, which was really fun.

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<v Speaker 1>I was kind of surprised how fun it was. It

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<v Speaker 1>only it only takes like literally five minutes. But there

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<v Speaker 1>was a museum of curiosities.

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<v Speaker 2>We didn't get to go.

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<v Speaker 1>We didn't. I peeked in and it looked kind of

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<v Speaker 1>like what you see a lot and.

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<v Speaker 2>But the but the house itself was like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like built all like tilted, and it gives you

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<v Speaker 2>this weird sense of like you're you can't stand up straight. Really,

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<v Speaker 2>it was cool.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's because we're old, but I was. It was.

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<v Speaker 1>We were laughing a lot because we literally could not

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<v Speaker 1>see straight and stand up straight. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think we're going to buy it.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think we're going to buy it, sadly, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>if it was a good investment, it was actually in

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<v Speaker 1>pretty good shape. But yeah, it was a fun little detour. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we went to the Big Boy for dinner.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we had a dinner at the Big Boy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's about all. I don't We did it.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a fun day. Was glad that we did that.

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<v Speaker 2>I have a snack for you. Would you like my snack? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>Of course?

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<v Speaker 2>All right. Well, today where our case is takes place

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<v Speaker 2>in Wenatchi, Washington, which is the apple capital of the world,

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<v Speaker 2>So of course I had to make something with apples

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<v Speaker 2>in it. I found her a little recipe on the

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<v Speaker 2>Pioneer Woman website for basically an apple tart but made

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<v Speaker 2>with a puff pastry. Really, it's super simple.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, I love It's Reed Drummond, right, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>It's Pioneer Woman.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I love the Pioneer Woman. She's a redhead.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, cool? And so I made that, and I

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<v Speaker 2>made some caramel sauce, some butter milk carme yep, I

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<v Speaker 2>made the one that you make all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's one of my favorite recipes. So sure

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<v Speaker 1>if you've never made it's like the buttermilk syrup. Is

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<v Speaker 1>that what it is? The exact same recipe.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll post the recipes, Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I highly recommend you make it.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, should we give this a try. Yeah, how

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<v Speaker 2>did you like the apple tart?

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<v Speaker 1>It was quite tasty. Oh good, I'm glad you kind

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<v Speaker 1>of apples did you use?

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<v Speaker 2>I used the honeycrisp apple for it. Super simple recipe.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just a frozen puff pastry, an apple, some brown sugar,

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<v Speaker 2>and some lemon juice.

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<v Speaker 1>I would probably give it like a seven and a

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<v Speaker 1>half out of ten. It doesn't have a ton of flavor,

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<v Speaker 1>but the caramel syrup I would give a ten out

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<v Speaker 1>of ten. Yeah, that's my favorites. Thank you so much. Sure,

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<v Speaker 1>you're such a good little cook.

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<v Speaker 2>I do my best. Today. We're going to tell the

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<v Speaker 2>story of Mackenzie Cowl. Before I start. This episode contains

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<v Speaker 2>descriptions of violent crime, including graphic details of the murder

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<v Speaker 2>of a minor. Please listen with care and this is

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<v Speaker 2>a recommendation from Sarah from Sioux Falls. Thank you Sarah

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<v Speaker 2>for the recommendation. On the afternoon of Tuesday, February ninth,

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<v Speaker 2>twenty ten, a seventeen year old girl named Mackenzie Cowl

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<v Speaker 2>told her classmates at the Wenatchi Academy of Hair Design

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<v Speaker 2>that she was stepping out for a fifteen minutes. She

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<v Speaker 2>gathered her things, walked out to the parking lot, got

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<v Speaker 2>in her car, and drove away. She never came back.

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<v Speaker 2>What followed was one of the more disturbing cases in

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<v Speaker 2>the recent history of Washington State. A murder that was

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<v Speaker 2>brutal even by the standards of violent crime, an investigation

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<v Speaker 2>full of dead ends and false leads, a mysterious informant

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<v Speaker 2>whose story was almost too strange to believe, and a

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<v Speaker 2>suspect who had been hiding in plain sight for years.

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<v Speaker 2>Mackenzie Cowell was born in April nineteen ninety two, the

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<v Speaker 2>youngest of three children, and by every account, a young

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<v Speaker 2>woman who packed more into a day than most people

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<v Speaker 2>could manage in a week. That year, her schedule would

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<v Speaker 2>have exhausted most adults. High school until noon, cosmetology classes

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<v Speaker 2>until five, dance rehearsals, and workouts squeezed into whatever time

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<v Speaker 2>was left. Her father, Reid, described her as driven, vibrant,

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<v Speaker 2>a strong young woman who was on the verge of

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<v Speaker 2>being a grown up, and then she vanished. I want

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<v Speaker 2>to start by talking about the city of Winatchee, Washington.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a small city, only about thirty two thousand people.

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<v Speaker 2>At the time of Mackenzie's disappearance, but the years before

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<v Speaker 2>Mackenzie's disappearance saw a number of events that led the

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<v Speaker 2>Los Angeles Times to call it the little town of

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<v Speaker 2>Horrors in a nineteen ninety five article, So I thought

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<v Speaker 2>it was worth going down a little bit of a

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<v Speaker 2>rabbit hole. Whenachie sits at the geographical center of Washington State,

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<v Speaker 2>in a valley carved out by the Columbia River, flanked

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<v Speaker 2>on both sides by the Cascade Mountain Range, It's apple country.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, it's referred to as the apple capital of

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<v Speaker 2>the world, with orchards running up into the hills. Many

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<v Speaker 2>of the same families have farmed the same land for generations.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a main street and a diner, and a brick courthouse,

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<v Speaker 2>and a feeling that things don't change much here. In

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety a publication called The Raiding Guide to Life

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<v Speaker 2>in America's Small Cities named Wanatchi the fourth best micropolitan

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<v Speaker 2>area in the entire country. A few years later, it

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<v Speaker 2>was on the cover of USA Weekend magazine as the

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<v Speaker 2>winner of Make a Difference Day. Hundreds of volunteers painting buildings,

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<v Speaker 2>picking up trash along the river, lawyers rolling up their

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<v Speaker 2>sleeves alongside service club members. The Chamber of Commerce printed

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<v Speaker 2>up tourists brochures. The slogan they landed on was Winatchi

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<v Speaker 2>Land of Dreams. Sounds pretty idyllic, right, But then in

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<v Speaker 2>the summer of nineteen ninety four, a series of events

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<v Speaker 2>hit the valley so fast and so hard that the

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<v Speaker 2>local paper eventually ran a headline that said, simply bad

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<v Speaker 2>news beyond imagination. First, a wildfire burned nearly two hundred

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<v Speaker 2>thousand acres of the Wenatchee National Forest and destroyed thirty

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<v Speaker 2>nine homes. Then eleven people were killed in a single

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<v Speaker 2>highway collision two miles north of town. Then two twelve

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<v Speaker 2>year old boys shot and killed a migrant farm worker

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<v Speaker 2>on the banks of the Columbia, firing eighteen rounds into

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<v Speaker 2>his body after he threw a rock at them. Soon

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<v Speaker 2>after that, Rita Huffman and her fifteen year old daughter

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<v Speaker 2>Mandy were brutally stabbed, killed, and mutilated in East Winatchie

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<v Speaker 2>by a man who was obsessed with werewolves.

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<v Speaker 1>Obsessed with werewolves? Does this have anything to do with Twilight.

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<v Speaker 2>Not that I know of. I think it's just a

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<v Speaker 2>sick man who he said he wanted to be the

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<v Speaker 2>world's greatest serial killer. And I think he just killed

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<v Speaker 2>those two people and then he got caught. But he

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<v Speaker 2>saw himself. He said he saw himself as a werewolf

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<v Speaker 2>stalking his prey.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that is crazy.

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<v Speaker 2>And then in the spring of nineteen ninety five, what

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<v Speaker 2>would become one of the most controversial criminal investigations in

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<v Speaker 2>Washington State history came unraveling into the open. It started

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<v Speaker 2>when a detective named Robert Perez drove his thirteen year

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<v Speaker 2>old foster daughter around town in his patrol car while

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<v Speaker 2>she pointed out houses and buildings where she claimed children

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<v Speaker 2>had been abused. Perez had recently been assigned to investigate

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<v Speaker 2>sex crimes after a brief training course. He had a

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<v Speaker 2>prior performance review noting that he likes having power over people.

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<v Speaker 2>On their drive around town, which locals would eventually call

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<v Speaker 2>the Parade of Homes, Perez's foster daughter identified twenty two

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<v Speaker 2>locations where she said that children had been abused. What

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<v Speaker 2>followed was a catastrophe. Forty three adults were arrested on

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<v Speaker 2>nearly thirty thousand charges involving sixty children. The accused were

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<v Speaker 2>overwhelmingly poor, many with intellectual disabilities. Confessions were later found

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<v Speaker 2>to have been coerced. A pastor who publicly criticized the investigation,

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<v Speaker 2>was arrested five days later, accused of hosting child sex

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<v Speaker 2>orgies in the church basement. He was eventually acquitted, with

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<v Speaker 2>one juror saying it wasn't a difficult decision at all.

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<v Speaker 2>Dona Perez ultimately recanted, saying her foster father had pressured

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<v Speaker 2>her convictions were overturned. The last person imprisoned was finally

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<v Speaker 2>freed in two thousand and the city paid out millions

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<v Speaker 2>in settlements.

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<v Speaker 1>So there was no voracity whatsoever to that claim.

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<v Speaker 2>Apparently not Wow. A forensic psychologist later called it perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>the worst example ever of a state coercing children into

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<v Speaker 2>falsely accusing their parents and neighbors of crimes that they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't commit. So this is crazy, and this town is

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like I said, thirty some thousand people. All

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<v Speaker 2>of these things had happened in the last fifteen years

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<v Speaker 2>before this case. But it just seems like an overwhelming

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<v Speaker 2>amount of tragedy and horrific crimes.

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<v Speaker 1>That reminds me of the McMartin preschool trial that we

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<v Speaker 1>talked about. In the Susan and Felix Polk case, a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of years ago. That's a wild episode first off,

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<v Speaker 1>if you haven't listened to that one. But just the

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<v Speaker 1>preschool trial was insane, one of the longest trials in

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<v Speaker 1>US history, and it went on for years and years.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm similar to your case.

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<v Speaker 2>Winacchi had been through things before, and with Mackenzie's disappearance

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<v Speaker 2>it would go through things again.

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<v Speaker 1>Mackenzie Nicole Cowell was born in April first, nineteen ninety two,

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<v Speaker 1>the youngest of three children. She grew up splitting her

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<v Speaker 1>time between two homes, her father, Read's place in Rondo,

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<v Speaker 1>a small community just north of Winatchi on the Columbia River,

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<v Speaker 1>and her mother, Wendy's home in Winnatchi itself. That arrangement

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<v Speaker 1>was the result of a difficult divorce when Mackenzie was

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<v Speaker 1>seven years old, contentious enough that her pa parents had

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<v Speaker 1>taken out restraining orders against each other at one point.

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<v Speaker 1>It wasn't an easy childhood dynamic, but by all accounts,

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<v Speaker 1>Mackenzie didn't let it define her. She was a kid

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<v Speaker 1>who threw herself into things. She danced seriously, not just

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<v Speaker 1>as a hobby. She was a member of the Appaulettes,

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<v Speaker 1>the dance team at Winachi high school, and she trained

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<v Speaker 1>on top of that at two independent dance studios. She

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<v Speaker 1>also modeled and worked out regularly at the gym. She

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<v Speaker 1>started dating her boyfriend, Joaquin Vilasano. Do you think that's right?

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<v Speaker 2>Nop?

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<v Speaker 1>When he was fifteen when she was fifteen. Her father Reid,

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<v Speaker 1>described her as driven and vibrant, a strong young woman

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<v Speaker 1>who was at seventeen, just on the verge of figuring

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<v Speaker 1>out who she was going to be. That sense of

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<v Speaker 1>purpose showed up in her schedule too. She had enrolled

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<v Speaker 1>in a voccasional cosmetology program that let her earn high

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<v Speaker 1>school credits through real job training, which is how she

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<v Speaker 1>ended up spending her afternoons at the Weinachi Academy of

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<v Speaker 1>Hair Design. A typical day started with high school classes

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<v Speaker 1>at seven thirty in the morning, running through noon, and

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<v Speaker 1>then continued at the salon until after five. After that

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<v Speaker 1>there was dance, the gym, and everything else she had

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<v Speaker 1>going on. It was a lot, deliberately so. Her home

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<v Speaker 1>life had one significant source of tension. Her mother, Wendy,

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<v Speaker 1>had a boyfriend named Joey Fisher, and Mackenzie couldn't stand him,

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<v Speaker 1>and the feeling was mutual. The night before she disappeared

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<v Speaker 1>February eighth, twenty ten, the two of them got into

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<v Speaker 1>a massive argument. Mackenzie gave her mother an ultimatum it

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<v Speaker 1>was him or her. The next afternoon, she went to

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<v Speaker 1>cosmetology class and never came home. Tuesday, February ninth, twenty ten,

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<v Speaker 1>was a normal afternoon at the Wenatchee Academy of Hair Design.

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<v Speaker 1>Students were at their stations working hard. Mackenzie was there

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<v Speaker 1>doing what she did every weekday, putting in her hours

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<v Speaker 1>towards a cosmetology license. In a future she had already

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<v Speaker 1>started planning out. So she planned to be a hair stylist,

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<v Speaker 1>I believe so. At around three o'clock, she told her

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<v Speaker 1>classmates that she was staidy upping out for fifteen minutes.

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<v Speaker 1>She didn't give any reason. She gathered her things, walked

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<v Speaker 1>out through the front of the building to the parking lot,

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<v Speaker 1>got in her car, and drove away at three oh

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<v Speaker 1>one pm. All of that was captured on surveillance video.

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<v Speaker 1>The only sign of Mackenzie that came after that was

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<v Speaker 1>at three twenty six pm when she sent a text

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<v Speaker 1>to her boyfriend Joaquin. It just said hey, he replied.

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<v Speaker 1>At three forty two with the same and that was

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<v Speaker 1>the last recorded activity on her phone. By early evening,

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<v Speaker 1>a rancher noticed a red Sedan sitting abandoned near his

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<v Speaker 1>driveway in the remote Pitcher Canyon area, several miles outside

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<v Speaker 1>of town. He didn't think too much of it at first,

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<v Speaker 1>but by eight o'clock the rancher called the police. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's February, so by eight pm it's probably quite dark.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely.

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<v Speaker 1>A little before ten, an officer ran the license plate

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<v Speaker 1>and contacted Reid Cowell, who said that his daughter was missing.

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<v Speaker 1>Reid and Joqueen drove out to the scene together. Mackenzie's

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<v Speaker 1>purse was in her car, along with her gym, clothes,

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00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.679
<v Speaker 1>her keys and cell phone were gone. On investigators noted

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<v Speaker 1>something else at the scene, a single set of footprints

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<v Speaker 1>leading away from the vehicle and heading down Pitcher Canyon

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<v Speaker 1>Road in the direction of town. I should have mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>this earlier, but when you were talking about Joey Fisher,

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<v Speaker 1>that was the name of her mom's boyfriend, right. Was

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<v Speaker 1>Joey ever violent with Mackenzie or Wendy, Not.

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<v Speaker 2>That I read about. I never read about any incidents

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<v Speaker 2>where the police came out or anything like that. From

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<v Speaker 2>what I could gather, it was just that Mackenzie and

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<v Speaker 2>he just hated each other and kind of went at it,

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<v Speaker 2>But I don't think there was any violence.

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<v Speaker 1>For four days, nobody knew where Mackenzie was. Search efforts

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<v Speaker 1>got underway, and Mackenzie's disappearance rippled through Wanatchi the way

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<v Speaker 1>these things do in smaller cities. People talked and they worried.

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<v Speaker 1>Her family was frantic. Read Cowell and Joaquin were out looking,

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<v Speaker 1>and the police were following the few leads they had. Then,

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<v Speaker 1>on the afternoon of February thirteenth, a passerby walking along

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<v Speaker 1>the banks of the Columbia River near Crescent Bar made

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<v Speaker 1>a horrible discovery. Crescent Barr is a small resort community

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<v Speaker 1>near the city of Quincy, about twenty five miles southeast

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<v Speaker 1>of Winatchi. It sits right on the river. The passerby

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<v Speaker 1>spotted a body in the shallow water near the shoreline.

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<v Speaker 1>It was Mackenzie, fully clothed, still wearing her beauty school uniform,

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<v Speaker 1>her feet in the water. Her body was partially submerged

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<v Speaker 1>roughly fifty to seventy five yards from a vacant house

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<v Speaker 1>that was listed for sale. The autopsy told a brutal story.

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<v Speaker 1>Mackenzie had been manually strangled, she had suffered blunt forest

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<v Speaker 1>trauma to the head, and her throat had been slashed.

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<v Speaker 1>The official cause of death was determined to be a

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<v Speaker 1>combination of manual strangulation and the deep stab wound to

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<v Speaker 1>her neck. And if that wasn't bad enough, whoever killed

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<v Speaker 1>her had attempted to amputate one of her arms after

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<v Speaker 1>she was dead, an effort that was unsuccessful. The murder weapon,

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<v Speaker 1>a kitchen knife, was found lodged in her shoulder. The

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<v Speaker 1>autopsy confirmed that she had not been sexually assaulted and

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<v Speaker 1>that there were no drugs or alcohol in her system.

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<v Speaker 1>Near her body, Investigators collected several items, including a piece

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<v Speaker 1>of duct tape containing blood matching Mackenzie's, as well as

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<v Speaker 1>an unidentified male DNA profile and a second kitchen knife,

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<v Speaker 1>part of a limited cutlery set sold at a store

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00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:16.559
<v Speaker 1>in Whanatchi called stans Mary mart. Police quietly held the

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00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.559
<v Speaker 1>murder weapon information back from the public, keeping it in

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<v Speaker 1>reserve to help weed out false confessions. There was also

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<v Speaker 1>a plastic bag that ultimately yielded nothing useful. Mackenzie's keys,

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00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:30.680
<v Speaker 1>cell phone, and debit card were never found. That is

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<v Speaker 1>such a brutal, heartbreaking crime. And to take place in

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<v Speaker 1>the city where it sounds like it was like where

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<v Speaker 1>we live, a nice, quiet town, and I can't imagine

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<v Speaker 1>how devastated the community must have been.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely and just you know, a young girl seventeen, I

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<v Speaker 2>think she was close to being eighteen, and just you know,

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<v Speaker 2>on the verge of adulthood and starting out her life

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<v Speaker 2>just so so tragic.

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<v Speaker 1>It sounds like Mackenzie had a really good head on

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<v Speaker 1>her shoulders and she knew what she wanted out of

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00:17:56.880 --> 00:17:59.319
<v Speaker 1>life and was willing to work hard to get it.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll be bad after a break.

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<v Speaker 2>The investigations started close to home. That's just statistics. The

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<v Speaker 2>people most likely to have harmed her are the people

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<v Speaker 2>already in her life. So in the days and weeks

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<v Speaker 2>after Mackenzie's body was found, police turned their attention to

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<v Speaker 2>the men closest to her. The first was Joaquin Villisano,

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<v Speaker 2>her boyfriend of nearly two years. He was interviewed and

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<v Speaker 2>at some point he was polygraphed twice. In fact, he

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<v Speaker 2>failed one specific question on the second test, whether he

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<v Speaker 2>knew who had killed Mackenzie or knew what had happened

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<v Speaker 2>to her. That's not a small thing, and investigators took

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<v Speaker 2>it seriously. But when they dug into his alibi, it

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<v Speaker 2>held up completely. Joaquin had been at work all day

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<v Speaker 2>on February ninth. His coworkers confirmed it, and so did

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<v Speaker 2>his phone records. Police cleared him one hundred percent. I

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't able to learn a lot about Joaquin and his

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<v Speaker 2>relationship with Mackenzie. All I know is they were dating

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<v Speaker 2>for about two years, going back to when they were

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<v Speaker 2>like fifteen or sixteen. He was in the forty eight

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<v Speaker 2>Hours episode that I watched for the show, and he

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00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:10.240
<v Speaker 2>seemed like a very nice young man. He seemed like

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<v Speaker 2>he really was worried about her when this happened, and

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<v Speaker 2>was really doing everything he could to try to find her.

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<v Speaker 2>The failed polygraph question is kind of interesting. We do

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<v Speaker 2>know that live detectors aren't one hundred percent accurate, so

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<v Speaker 2>it's possible that he was just nervous.

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<v Speaker 1>You said he had to take it twice, but you

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00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:29.559
<v Speaker 1>only mentioned a failed question on this second test, So

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00:19:29.640 --> 00:19:31.359
<v Speaker 1>why did he have to take it twice?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I would imagine they still had doubts and

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00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:36.519
<v Speaker 2>that he, you know, he was the closest person to her,

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00:19:36.599 --> 00:19:39.480
<v Speaker 2>so I'm sure they were very suspicious of him in

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning, or.

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00:19:40.319 --> 00:19:42.359
<v Speaker 1>Maybe the first test was inconclusive.

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00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:44.720
<v Speaker 2>That could be as well. Yeah. The next person on

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<v Speaker 2>the list was Joey Fisher, the boyfriend of Mackenzie's mother,

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<v Speaker 2>the man that Mackenzie had told her mother she couldn't

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00:19:51.079 --> 00:19:54.400
<v Speaker 2>stand the argument the night before her disappearance. Made him

401
00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:57.359
<v Speaker 2>an obvious early candidate, and he did have a minor

402
00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.759
<v Speaker 2>criminal history, which didn't help his case. The police searched

403
00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:03.519
<v Speaker 2>his home in Winatchi and took some items in for testing,

404
00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.400
<v Speaker 2>but Fisher, like Joaquin, had a verified alibi. He had

405
00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:09.920
<v Speaker 2>been at work miles away on the day that Mackenzie

406
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:13.079
<v Speaker 2>was murdered. There was no physical evidence connecting him to

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00:20:13.119 --> 00:20:17.119
<v Speaker 2>the crime, and three independent witnesses had reported seeing a thin,

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00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:21.000
<v Speaker 2>dark haired man walking away from the area where Mackenzie's

409
00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.839
<v Speaker 2>car was abandoned that afternoon. Fisher was light complexed with

410
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:27.960
<v Speaker 2>blonde or reddish gray hair, he didn't come close to

411
00:20:28.079 --> 00:20:32.680
<v Speaker 2>matching that description. Mackenzie's other family members, her parents, her brothers,

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00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:35.680
<v Speaker 2>were looked at briefly and ruled out just as quickly.

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00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.400
<v Speaker 2>Their whereabouts confirmed by alibis, phone records, and witness statements.

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<v Speaker 2>By the time Spring arrived, the people closest to Mackenzie

415
00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:47.720
<v Speaker 2>had all been cleared. Investigators had a body, a brutal

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00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.799
<v Speaker 2>crime scene, and no real suspect. They were going to

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00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:54.160
<v Speaker 2>need something else, and that something else arrived in the

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00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:57.359
<v Speaker 2>form of a woman named Liz Reid, identified in court

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<v Speaker 2>documents as confidential Informant One's zero zero two. Reid was

420
00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:05.240
<v Speaker 2>a college student, a self described former drug dealer and

421
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:09.119
<v Speaker 2>prescription pill user, and notably a police informant with a

422
00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:12.759
<v Speaker 2>track record. She had previously helped the DEA take down

423
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:16.559
<v Speaker 2>four narcotics traffickers in the Seattle area. When she came

424
00:21:16.640 --> 00:21:20.839
<v Speaker 2>forward with information about Mackenzie Cowle's murder, investigators had reason

425
00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:24.880
<v Speaker 2>to take her seriously. Her story was detailed and specific.

426
00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:29.759
<v Speaker 2>She claimed that two local drug dealers, Emmanuel Buddha Seros

427
00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:33.240
<v Speaker 2>and Sam Kuavs, had killed Mackenzie in a case of

428
00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:37.640
<v Speaker 2>mistaken identity. According to Reed, the men believed that Mackenzie

429
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:40.440
<v Speaker 2>was a police informant from the drug world and had

430
00:21:40.480 --> 00:21:44.599
<v Speaker 2>decided to silence her. She described the attack in granular detail,

431
00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:49.119
<v Speaker 2>four men overpowering Mackenzie, getting into her car driving away

432
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.480
<v Speaker 2>while others followed in a green jeep Cherokee. She said

433
00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:55.720
<v Speaker 2>they took her to a bluff overlooking Crescent Bar, choked

434
00:21:55.720 --> 00:21:58.200
<v Speaker 2>her and put her body in the river, and then

435
00:21:58.440 --> 00:22:01.759
<v Speaker 2>she mentioned the snuff film. Reid claimed the men had

436
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:05.319
<v Speaker 2>filmed the murder and that she had personally seen the footage.

437
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.720
<v Speaker 2>That alone would have been extraordinary, but what really got

438
00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.599
<v Speaker 2>investigator's attention was something else. Reid was able to describe

439
00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:15.720
<v Speaker 2>the murder weapon before that information had been released to

440
00:22:15.799 --> 00:22:19.200
<v Speaker 2>the public. She also led police to a secluded bluff

441
00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:21.759
<v Speaker 2>near Crescent Bar, where she said that she had found

442
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.359
<v Speaker 2>a silver ring that she claimed had belonged to Mackenzie.

443
00:22:25.680 --> 00:22:27.920
<v Speaker 2>She said that Saros had sent her to the murder

444
00:22:27.960 --> 00:22:29.079
<v Speaker 2>site to find the ring.

445
00:22:29.640 --> 00:22:33.720
<v Speaker 1>So where to believe that four drug dealers killed Mackenzie

446
00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:37.359
<v Speaker 1>using knives from Stan's marry mart yep.

447
00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:39.559
<v Speaker 2>That is Liz Reid's story in a nutshell.

448
00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:43.279
<v Speaker 1>And you said that there was one eyewitness who saw

449
00:22:43.319 --> 00:22:45.920
<v Speaker 1>a man with dark hair, but only one man with

450
00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:46.480
<v Speaker 1>dark hair.

451
00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:50.359
<v Speaker 2>There were three witnesses who saw somebody walking on the

452
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.680
<v Speaker 2>road like away from where her car had been found.

453
00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:56.519
<v Speaker 2>We don't know if that person was connected or not,

454
00:22:57.160 --> 00:23:00.240
<v Speaker 2>but that yes, they saw one person walking away and

455
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.079
<v Speaker 2>there was one set of footprints coming from her car

456
00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:06.359
<v Speaker 2>as well. So yeah, the story that Liz told was

457
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:09.960
<v Speaker 2>on the surface, a remarkably compelling tip, but it didn't

458
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:13.839
<v Speaker 2>hold up. Detective John Cruse said, I personally took that

459
00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.240
<v Speaker 2>ring that she found. I showed it to Read Cowl,

460
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:18.440
<v Speaker 2>I showed it to Wendy Cowell. I showed it to

461
00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.039
<v Speaker 2>Mackenzie's boyfriend. None of them recognized that ring at all.

462
00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Testing found no DNA on the ring. Saros and Kuavis

463
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:30.400
<v Speaker 2>both produced solid alibis phone records and witness statements, placing

464
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.880
<v Speaker 2>them at work in Winatchi at the time of the murder.

465
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.759
<v Speaker 2>Investigators tapped their phones that had Reid call them repeatedly,

466
00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:40.839
<v Speaker 2>fishing for anything incriminating, but they got nothing, and Reid

467
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.000
<v Speaker 2>herself began to unravel. She recanted the snuff film story.

468
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Then she said her story about the murder was true,

469
00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.319
<v Speaker 2>but the film didn't exist. Then she changed her mind

470
00:23:50.319 --> 00:23:53.000
<v Speaker 2>again and said it did exist. Within a few months

471
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:56.599
<v Speaker 2>of coming forward, her credibility was in tatters. There was

472
00:23:56.680 --> 00:24:00.720
<v Speaker 2>one odd footnote. Investigators collected cigarette button at the bluff

473
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.440
<v Speaker 2>where Reid had led them, and the DNA on those

474
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:07.720
<v Speaker 2>butts did match Sam Quavis. That was never explained, But

475
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:10.680
<v Speaker 2>a man smoking at a spot near a river isn't

476
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:13.480
<v Speaker 2>evidence of murder. And by the summer of twenty ten,

477
00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:16.599
<v Speaker 2>the police had moved on. They were back to square one.

478
00:24:17.240 --> 00:24:21.160
<v Speaker 2>And then six months after Mackenzie's murder, a letter arrived.

479
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:25.039
<v Speaker 1>The cigarette butt seems like hard evidence to dismiss.

480
00:24:25.519 --> 00:24:28.039
<v Speaker 2>I agree, But at the same time, it was not

481
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:30.880
<v Speaker 2>at the site of Mackenzie's body. It was on a

482
00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:34.599
<v Speaker 2>bluff overlooking the river, so it was nearby, but it

483
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:36.480
<v Speaker 2>wasn't right at the site. And I'm sure this is

484
00:24:36.480 --> 00:24:39.720
<v Speaker 2>an area that people would hang out at and smoke cigarettes,

485
00:24:39.759 --> 00:24:42.880
<v Speaker 2>and Liz led them to that site, saying that, you know,

486
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:45.920
<v Speaker 2>it might have had some importance to Liz, like maybe

487
00:24:45.960 --> 00:24:48.079
<v Speaker 2>she had been there with these guys before or something

488
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:49.920
<v Speaker 2>like that. So that's the only thing I can think of.

489
00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.000
<v Speaker 2>But you're right, it is a little bit pausible. The

490
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:55.640
<v Speaker 2>letter that gave police a break in the case came

491
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:58.799
<v Speaker 2>from Oregon. It came from a man named Theodor Keys

492
00:24:59.039 --> 00:25:01.519
<v Speaker 2>THEO to the people who knew him. He was serving

493
00:25:01.559 --> 00:25:04.200
<v Speaker 2>time in an organ prison when he decided to write

494
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:07.519
<v Speaker 2>to investigators working the Cowl case. He had a former

495
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.599
<v Speaker 2>friend that he thought they should know about. That friend

496
00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:15.400
<v Speaker 2>was Christopher Scott Wilson. Keyes had several things to tell them. Wilson,

497
00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:18.240
<v Speaker 2>he wrote, had been attending the Winatchee Academy of Hair

498
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:21.519
<v Speaker 2>Design at the same time as Mackenzie. He had a deep,

499
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:26.400
<v Speaker 2>consuming fascination with death, dead bodies, and serial killers. Not

500
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:29.400
<v Speaker 2>the casual, morbid curiosity that a lot of people have,

501
00:25:29.759 --> 00:25:33.119
<v Speaker 2>but something more intense and more deliberate than that. And

502
00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:35.240
<v Speaker 2>then there was something that had happened at a party

503
00:25:35.400 --> 00:25:39.599
<v Speaker 2>a few weeks before Mackenzie disappeared. Wilson had, without warning

504
00:25:39.680 --> 00:25:42.960
<v Speaker 2>or apparent reason, grabbed a female friend by the throat

505
00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:45.680
<v Speaker 2>and choked her. Then he let her go and acted

506
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.240
<v Speaker 2>as if nothing had happened. Investigators took the letter seriously,

507
00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:53.000
<v Speaker 2>in part because the choking incident could be verified. They

508
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:57.319
<v Speaker 2>tracked down the woman who confirmed the story. That corroboration mattered.

509
00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.680
<v Speaker 2>It meant that Keyes wasn't just spinning a tail. When

510
00:26:00.680 --> 00:26:03.240
<v Speaker 2>they went back through their files, they found something else.

511
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:06.759
<v Speaker 2>Earlier in the investigation, an anonymous tip had come in

512
00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:09.880
<v Speaker 2>from an employee at the beauty school. That tipster had

513
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:13.279
<v Speaker 2>told police that Wilson once said he had enjoyed working

514
00:26:13.279 --> 00:26:16.279
<v Speaker 2>at a funeral home because, and this is a direct quote,

515
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:19.440
<v Speaker 2>he got to cut people up. At that time it

516
00:26:19.480 --> 00:26:22.039
<v Speaker 2>hadn't risen to the top of the pile, but now

517
00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:27.119
<v Speaker 2>read alongside Key's letter, it landed differently. In August twenty ten,

518
00:26:27.240 --> 00:26:30.480
<v Speaker 2>investigators brought Wilson and a number of other beauty school

519
00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:33.960
<v Speaker 2>students in for interviews. They said it was routine. They

520
00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.319
<v Speaker 2>were just talking again with everyone who may have known Mackenzie.

521
00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.119
<v Speaker 2>Wilson was cooperative. He sat down with detectives and, at

522
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:45.440
<v Speaker 2>their request, provided a voluntary DNA swab. The swab went

523
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:48.400
<v Speaker 2>to the state crime Lab, and when the results came back,

524
00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:52.440
<v Speaker 2>they found that Wilson's DNA profile was consistent with the

525
00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:56.039
<v Speaker 2>unidentified male DNA that had been recovered from the duct

526
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.880
<v Speaker 2>tape found near Mackenzie's body. Six months after McKenzie was

527
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:04.160
<v Speaker 2>found in the Columbia River, investigators finally had a suspect.

528
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:07.440
<v Speaker 1>Was this Wilson guy at the beauty school on the

529
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:10.960
<v Speaker 1>day of Mackenzie's disappearance. He sure was, But did he

530
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:12.279
<v Speaker 1>leave when Mackenzie left?

531
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:14.440
<v Speaker 2>We will talk about that inn just a minute.

532
00:27:14.640 --> 00:27:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Christopher Scott Wilson was twenty nine years old at the

533
00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:19.640
<v Speaker 1>time of Mackenzie's murder. He had grown up in the

534
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:23.759
<v Speaker 1>Seattle suburbs, the son of a single mother named Kathleen Zornz,

535
00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:26.680
<v Speaker 1>who worked as a flight attendant, a business owner, and

536
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:30.559
<v Speaker 1>a hairstylist. His biological father was never in the picture.

537
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:33.440
<v Speaker 1>When Chris was young, his mother married a man named

538
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:36.519
<v Speaker 1>Rick Wilson, who adopted him. By all accounts, it was

539
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:40.440
<v Speaker 1>a stable, loving arrangement. Then, when Chris was around sixteen,

540
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Rick died in an accident. Kathleen would later say that

541
00:27:44.279 --> 00:27:47.519
<v Speaker 1>it was seeing his stepfather's body that first sparked Chris's

542
00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:51.160
<v Speaker 1>interest in the funeral industry. Whether that's the whole explanation

543
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:53.400
<v Speaker 1>or just part of it, something seemed to shift in

544
00:27:53.480 --> 00:27:57.799
<v Speaker 1>him around that time. He spent his teenage years in Shellan, Washington,

545
00:27:58.000 --> 00:28:00.640
<v Speaker 1>a small town on the lake of the same name,

546
00:28:00.839 --> 00:28:04.319
<v Speaker 1>about thirty miles from Wenatchee. His mother owned a local

547
00:28:04.440 --> 00:28:06.839
<v Speaker 1>skate and bike shop, and Chris was deep in the

548
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:10.519
<v Speaker 1>skateboarding scene. In his early twenties, he joined the military,

549
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:13.880
<v Speaker 1>but received a medical discharge not long after. A period

550
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.480
<v Speaker 1>of his life that he didn't talk about warmly. He

551
00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:19.640
<v Speaker 1>drifted through jobs, spent time working at funeral homes in

552
00:28:19.680 --> 00:28:23.000
<v Speaker 1>the Wenatchee area, and by his own admission, didn't really

553
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.759
<v Speaker 1>know what he wanted to do with himself. He dreamed

554
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:29.319
<v Speaker 1>somewhat vaguely of being in a band. His colleagues at

555
00:28:29.359 --> 00:28:32.960
<v Speaker 1>the funeral homes remembered him as unsettling. At least one

556
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:36.160
<v Speaker 1>employer let him go for what he described as inappropriate

557
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.799
<v Speaker 1>behavior that made people uncomfortable.

558
00:28:39.119 --> 00:28:42.119
<v Speaker 2>I should say that this funeral director said that Wilson

559
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:46.400
<v Speaker 2>didn't do anything explicitly really bad, but obviously he made

560
00:28:46.440 --> 00:28:48.920
<v Speaker 2>him uncomfortable enough that he let him go.

561
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:51.640
<v Speaker 1>Is there any implication there that it had something to

562
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:52.839
<v Speaker 1>do with the bodies?

563
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:55.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I believe so.

564
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:57.839
<v Speaker 1>Then there was an anonymous tip that had come into

565
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:01.359
<v Speaker 1>police early in the investigation that Wilson had told a

566
00:29:01.359 --> 00:29:04.200
<v Speaker 1>coworker he enjoyed the funeral homework because he got to

567
00:29:04.240 --> 00:29:06.559
<v Speaker 1>cut people off. Whether he said it as a joke

568
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:09.440
<v Speaker 1>or meant it seriously, it wasn't the kind of thing

569
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:12.680
<v Speaker 1>that was easy to forget. His interest outside of work

570
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:16.640
<v Speaker 1>ran in a consistent direction. He spent significant time on

571
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:20.559
<v Speaker 1>Internet forums dedicated to serial killers. He loved dark art,

572
00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:24.799
<v Speaker 1>and horror films, and was devoted to the television show Dexter,

573
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:28.400
<v Speaker 1>a show about a forensic blood spatter analyst who moonlights

574
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.440
<v Speaker 1>as a serial killer. Chris also had a tattoo of

575
00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:35.079
<v Speaker 1>a fictional serial killer, Hannibal Lecter on his forearm. What

576
00:29:35.359 --> 00:29:37.279
<v Speaker 1>is a disturbing set of facts, isn't it?

577
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:40.359
<v Speaker 2>It is? I think his family In the episode of

578
00:29:40.440 --> 00:29:42.720
<v Speaker 2>forty eight Hours I watched, they tried to portray him

579
00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.680
<v Speaker 2>as just, you know, someone who didn't fit in with

580
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of the small town someone who's a little more

581
00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:50.079
<v Speaker 2>like Emo maybe, and just you know, he was just

582
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:51.720
<v Speaker 2>kind of an odd guy that didn't fit in. But

583
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:54.079
<v Speaker 2>a lot of these things are pretty seen when you.

584
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:56.200
<v Speaker 1>Grab them all together. But sure, there's plenty of people

585
00:29:56.240 --> 00:29:58.799
<v Speaker 1>who have Sure, I was going to say tattoo of

586
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:00.799
<v Speaker 1>Hannibal Lectu, that's.

587
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:02.079
<v Speaker 2>Probably that's a choice.

588
00:30:01.960 --> 00:30:05.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we watched Dexter and we liked it. There were

589
00:30:05.640 --> 00:30:09.000
<v Speaker 1>two incidents involving mannequins that people who knew him tended

590
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:12.640
<v Speaker 1>to remember. While working at a good will store in Ellensburg,

591
00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:16.279
<v Speaker 1>he retrieved a discarded mannequin from a dumpster, took it home,

592
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:19.519
<v Speaker 1>dismembered it, painted it to look like a murdered body,

593
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:23.359
<v Speaker 1>and posted photographs of it online. Some friends offered a

594
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:26.240
<v Speaker 1>different version of events. They said he had found it

595
00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:29.319
<v Speaker 1>already in that condition and called the police. Bought the

596
00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:32.519
<v Speaker 1>story stuck to him regardless. Why would he call the

597
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:33.799
<v Speaker 1>police if he found a mannequin?

598
00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:35.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, you know, I hadn't thought of that.

599
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:37.039
<v Speaker 2>That's a really good question.

600
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:40.440
<v Speaker 1>The second incident happened at the Academy of Hair Design

601
00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:44.599
<v Speaker 1>during a Halloween styling contest. While other students decorated their

602
00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:48.000
<v Speaker 1>mannequin heads with creative hair and makeup, Wilson used a

603
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:51.440
<v Speaker 1>straight razor to peel the skin off his mannequin's face.

604
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:54.839
<v Speaker 1>A classmate who witnessed it said it deeply disturbed her.

605
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.319
<v Speaker 1>I'm not sure what the mannequins that you use in

606
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.799
<v Speaker 1>hairstyling school what they really look like. If it feels

607
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:04.599
<v Speaker 1>like real skin, I'm picturing my Barbie head that I had, yeah,

608
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.240
<v Speaker 1>you know, back in like third grade. But do you

609
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:09.640
<v Speaker 1>think it must be kind of like real skin if you.

610
00:31:09.839 --> 00:31:12.079
<v Speaker 2>I really don't know. It must have some sort of

611
00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:14.640
<v Speaker 2>layer on it that could be peeled off. But whatever

612
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:17.799
<v Speaker 2>it was, it was disturbing to his classmates. Understandably.

613
00:31:17.839 --> 00:31:20.920
<v Speaker 1>So. Yeah. By his late twenties, his mother had bought

614
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:24.200
<v Speaker 1>a hair salon in Wanatchi, and Wilson had enrolled at

615
00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:26.920
<v Speaker 1>the Academy of Hair Design, one of only three male

616
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:29.480
<v Speaker 1>students in the program. That was how he ended up

617
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:32.559
<v Speaker 1>in the same classroom as seventeen year old Mackenzie Cowell.

618
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.599
<v Speaker 1>His interest, as you've described them, seem like he's more

619
00:31:35.640 --> 00:31:38.759
<v Speaker 1>interested on like the funeral side of things and working

620
00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:42.279
<v Speaker 1>in a funeral parlor. Was his interest in doing hair

621
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:44.960
<v Speaker 1>to do them of the deceased?

622
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:46.799
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a good question. It could be, but

623
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:49.559
<v Speaker 2>it sounds to me more like his mom bought a

624
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:52.519
<v Speaker 2>hair salon, and so it sounded to me like he

625
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:54.720
<v Speaker 2>had been a little bit lost and sort of drifting

626
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:58.799
<v Speaker 2>without direction. So this maybe he saw this as an opportunity, like, Hey,

627
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:01.720
<v Speaker 2>my mom's got this hair salon. If I graduate and

628
00:32:01.799 --> 00:32:04.640
<v Speaker 2>become a hairstylist, I could work at her. Swan So

629
00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:06.759
<v Speaker 2>that would be my guest, But it's a good point.

630
00:32:06.759 --> 00:32:08.799
<v Speaker 2>He may have envisioned that for himself as well.

631
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:12.279
<v Speaker 1>When Christopher Wilson sat down with investigators in August twenty

632
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:17.279
<v Speaker 1>ten and handed over a voluntary DNA swab, he was calm, cooperative,

633
00:32:17.319 --> 00:32:20.039
<v Speaker 1>even there was nothing in his demeanor to suggest that

634
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:23.440
<v Speaker 1>he was particularly worried about what that swab might show.

635
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:26.880
<v Speaker 1>In September twenty third, twenty ten, the State Crime Lab

636
00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:31.200
<v Speaker 1>delivered its findings. Wilson's DNA profile was consistent with the

637
00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:35.079
<v Speaker 1>unidentified male genetic material recovered from the duct tape found

638
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:39.440
<v Speaker 1>near Mackenzie's body at Crescent Bar. It wasn't a definitive match,

639
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:42.680
<v Speaker 1>as the profile was partial, but it was pretty close.

640
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:47.200
<v Speaker 1>One out of every one forty seven Caucasian men possessed

641
00:32:47.240 --> 00:32:50.799
<v Speaker 1>the profile that was found. Christopher Wilson was now the

642
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:53.319
<v Speaker 1>prime suspect in the murder of Mackenzie Cowell.

643
00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:56.480
<v Speaker 2>So there's one out of every thousand or so men

644
00:32:56.880 --> 00:33:00.119
<v Speaker 2>Caucasian men in a city of thirty thousand, So that

645
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:03.400
<v Speaker 2>means there were at most thirty people that could have

646
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:05.880
<v Speaker 2>matched that profile in that town. Obviously could have been

647
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.279
<v Speaker 2>somebody from outside, but that gives you an idea of

648
00:33:08.319 --> 00:33:08.960
<v Speaker 2>the odds.

649
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:10.680
<v Speaker 1>Untill there were thirty people that could have matched that

650
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:14.039
<v Speaker 1>DNA profile, Investigators went back and looked at everything they

651
00:33:14.119 --> 00:33:16.920
<v Speaker 1>knew about his movements. On the afternoon of February ninth,

652
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:20.559
<v Speaker 1>with fresh eyes. What they found was troubling. Wilson had

653
00:33:20.599 --> 00:33:23.599
<v Speaker 1>been at the Academy of Hair Design that afternoon. Surveillance

654
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:26.839
<v Speaker 1>footage showed him leaving the building at three o two pm,

655
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:30.079
<v Speaker 1>just seventy two seconds after Mackenzie had walked out to

656
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:33.319
<v Speaker 1>the car. He had exited through a different door, which

657
00:33:33.359 --> 00:33:36.799
<v Speaker 1>is why it hadn't initially raised any flags. A traffic

658
00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:40.160
<v Speaker 1>camera had captured Mackenzie's car heading west on Kitta Tasks

659
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:44.599
<v Speaker 1>towards Wilson's apartment. After three o two. Wilson never returned

660
00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:47.359
<v Speaker 1>to class. His whereabouts for the rest of the afternoon

661
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:51.039
<v Speaker 1>were entirely unaccounted for. His mother tried to fill in

662
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:53.759
<v Speaker 1>part of the gap. She told investigators that Chris had

663
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:55.839
<v Speaker 1>swung by her house that afternoon to pick up a

664
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.759
<v Speaker 1>plate of cupcakes, But that was over six months ago,

665
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:01.400
<v Speaker 1>and it accounted for all only a few minutes at most.

666
00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:04.240
<v Speaker 1>It didn't come close to constituting an alibi for the

667
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:07.119
<v Speaker 1>hours that followed. Between three h two and three thirty

668
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.559
<v Speaker 1>three that afternoon, Wilson had sent four text messages to

669
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:14.280
<v Speaker 1>his on again, off again girlfriend, Tessa Shyloman, and from

670
00:34:14.360 --> 00:34:17.639
<v Speaker 1>three thirty three to three point fifty his phone went unanswered.

671
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.199
<v Speaker 2>It's unclear who was actually trying to call him during

672
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:23.320
<v Speaker 2>this time, but the articles I read said that, you know,

673
00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:25.519
<v Speaker 2>people had tried to call him and he didn't answer

674
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:26.280
<v Speaker 2>during that time.

675
00:34:26.599 --> 00:34:29.079
<v Speaker 1>Shortly before four o'clock, he called a friend to ask

676
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:32.400
<v Speaker 1>if he could borrow their car starting at four pm,

677
00:34:32.440 --> 00:34:35.079
<v Speaker 1>despite the fact that he had his own vehicle. The

678
00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:37.400
<v Speaker 1>friend said that he could borrow his car until five,

679
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:40.639
<v Speaker 1>but Chris said he needed it longer than that. Ultimately,

680
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:43.599
<v Speaker 1>it's not clear whether he actually borrowed the car or not.

681
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:46.840
<v Speaker 1>None of that proved anything on its own, but taken together,

682
00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:48.920
<v Speaker 1>it painted a picture of a man who had left

683
00:34:48.920 --> 00:34:52.440
<v Speaker 1>the same building as Mackenzie within seventy two seconds of

684
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:55.639
<v Speaker 1>her departure. He had no alibi for the hours that followed,

685
00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:59.679
<v Speaker 1>and had behaved in ways that were difficult to explain innocently.

686
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:03.280
<v Speaker 1>On October sixth, twenty ten, police to ask Wilson to

687
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:07.159
<v Speaker 1>come in for another interview. They asked him a direct question,

688
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:10.400
<v Speaker 1>had he ever been to Crescent Bar. He said no.

689
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:14.519
<v Speaker 1>They arrested him on the spot. Detective John Cruz noted

690
00:35:14.599 --> 00:35:17.400
<v Speaker 1>that Wilson showed no emotion when the cuffs went on.

691
00:35:17.760 --> 00:35:21.280
<v Speaker 1>He stared blankly and said quietly that he needed a lawyer.

692
00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:24.800
<v Speaker 1>He was charged with second degree murder and held on

693
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:28.199
<v Speaker 1>one million dollars bail. Why second degree murder and not

694
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:29.360
<v Speaker 1>first I.

695
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Don't know for sure, but I think in a lot

696
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.119
<v Speaker 2>of cases that police start with a lower charge because

697
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:37.079
<v Speaker 2>you only need probable cause to make an arrest, whereas

698
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:40.000
<v Speaker 2>you need reasonable doubt to have a conviction. So they

699
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:42.159
<v Speaker 2>might have started with just second degree murder while they

700
00:35:42.239 --> 00:35:45.360
<v Speaker 2>continued to investigate to see if they had enough evidence

701
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:48.159
<v Speaker 2>to really raise it to a more serious charge.

702
00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:50.559
<v Speaker 1>Gotcha, we'll be back. After a break.

703
00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:01.519
<v Speaker 2>With Wilson in custody, investigation turned their attention to the

704
00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:04.280
<v Speaker 2>people around him, and the person who kept coming up

705
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:08.199
<v Speaker 2>was Tessa Shyloman, is on again, off again girlfriend twenty

706
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:10.880
<v Speaker 2>two years old, who had been woven into the events

707
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:13.679
<v Speaker 2>of February ninth in ways that were hard to ignore.

708
00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:17.199
<v Speaker 2>The phone records alone were striking between three h two

709
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:20.920
<v Speaker 2>and six pm on the afternoon Mackenzie vanished. Tessa and

710
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:24.519
<v Speaker 2>Wilson had been in contact eight separate times, calls and

711
00:36:24.559 --> 00:36:28.239
<v Speaker 2>texts back and forth during the precise window when Mackenzie

712
00:36:28.280 --> 00:36:32.679
<v Speaker 2>had disappeared and Wilson's whereabouts were unaccounted for. That evening,

713
00:36:32.760 --> 00:36:36.360
<v Speaker 2>at around nine ten pm, Tessa called her current boyfriend,

714
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:39.519
<v Speaker 2>not Wilson. She was seeing someone else at the time,

715
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:42.119
<v Speaker 2>a man who lived in Quincy, not far from the

716
00:36:42.119 --> 00:36:44.880
<v Speaker 2>Crescent Bar, and she called him. She was in a panic.

717
00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:48.360
<v Speaker 2>Something really, really bad has happened. She told him, please

718
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.239
<v Speaker 2>pray for me. In the days that followed, people who

719
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:55.280
<v Speaker 2>saw Tessa noticed something off about her. She briefly visited

720
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:58.199
<v Speaker 2>an ex boyfriend's home to pick up some belongings, and

721
00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:02.199
<v Speaker 2>he described her as agitated and fidgety. She left after

722
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:06.599
<v Speaker 2>twenty minutes without actually taking anything. When investigators later interviewed

723
00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.320
<v Speaker 2>her about all of this, Tessa told them she had

724
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:12.960
<v Speaker 2>no memory whatsoever of anything that had happened between February

725
00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:16.960
<v Speaker 2>ninth and February thirteenth. But the most disturbing evidence involving

726
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:20.599
<v Speaker 2>Tessa didn't come from interviews or phone records. It came

727
00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:24.840
<v Speaker 2>from Wilson's computer. When investigators examined the hard drive, they

728
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:28.440
<v Speaker 2>found photographs and videos that stopped them cold. There was

729
00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:31.920
<v Speaker 2>a photo of Tessa lying on the floor of Wilson's apartment,

730
00:37:32.199 --> 00:37:35.519
<v Speaker 2>posed as if she were dead, positioned right next to

731
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:38.679
<v Speaker 2>a brownish stain on the carpet. When asked about it,

732
00:37:38.800 --> 00:37:42.880
<v Speaker 2>she gave two different explanations at different times, once saying

733
00:37:42.960 --> 00:37:46.159
<v Speaker 2>she had passed out drunk, another time saying that Wilson

734
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:48.719
<v Speaker 2>had simply asked her to lie there for the picture.

735
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Then there were the videos recorded in late June twenty ten,

736
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:57.280
<v Speaker 2>several months after mackenzie's murder, around the time that Wilson

737
00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:00.400
<v Speaker 2>was moving out of his apartment. The footage showed Tessa

738
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:04.079
<v Speaker 2>and Wilson walking through the empty space together, the camera

739
00:38:04.239 --> 00:38:07.400
<v Speaker 2>periodically zooming in on the stain on the carpet. At

740
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:11.599
<v Speaker 2>one point, Wilson asked if the room looked clean. Tessa's response,

741
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:17.679
<v Speaker 2>caught clearly on the recording, was clean for considering what's happening, Yes,

742
00:38:17.760 --> 00:38:21.559
<v Speaker 2>I think it's clean. In December twenty ten, Tessa Shilman

743
00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:26.760
<v Speaker 2>was arrested in Tumwater, Washington, and charged with misdemeanor criminal assistance,

744
00:38:27.119 --> 00:38:31.760
<v Speaker 2>making false statements, and obstructing a public officer. However, the

745
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:35.519
<v Speaker 2>charges weren't related to McKenzie's case. It was a completely

746
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:39.239
<v Speaker 2>separate case in neighboring Grant County. When she came in

747
00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:43.199
<v Speaker 2>for her initial police interviews, she arrived, accompanied oddly by

748
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:46.880
<v Speaker 2>Wilson's grandfather. I wasn't able to find details about this

749
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:50.280
<v Speaker 2>other case, but whatever was going on in Tessa's life,

750
00:38:50.440 --> 00:38:53.159
<v Speaker 2>this was apparently not her first time being on the

751
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:54.400
<v Speaker 2>wrong side of the law.

752
00:38:54.960 --> 00:38:57.119
<v Speaker 1>Was she a suspect in Mackenzie's murder.

753
00:38:57.519 --> 00:38:59.599
<v Speaker 2>They believed that she at least had a part in

754
00:38:59.760 --> 00:39:02.679
<v Speaker 2>cut it up, but they didn't really have enough evidence

755
00:39:02.760 --> 00:39:05.079
<v Speaker 2>to prove anything, which is I think why they arrested

756
00:39:05.079 --> 00:39:07.239
<v Speaker 2>her on this other charge, which again I don't have

757
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:09.440
<v Speaker 2>the details of, but I think they had enough to

758
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:12.039
<v Speaker 2>at least bring her in so that they could question her.

759
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:17.039
<v Speaker 2>Gotcha with Wilson arrested and Tessa arrested on an unrelated case,

760
00:39:17.239 --> 00:39:21.159
<v Speaker 2>investigators needed to build their case. The partial DNA match

761
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:24.320
<v Speaker 2>on the duct tape was significant, but it wasn't airtight.

762
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:27.760
<v Speaker 2>They needed more, and they believed that Moore was sitting

763
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:32.159
<v Speaker 2>in Wilson's former apartment at the Burkhill Complex, the studio

764
00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.440
<v Speaker 2>he'd been living in at the time of the murder,

765
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.880
<v Speaker 2>and that he had quietly vacated in June twenty ten,

766
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:41.599
<v Speaker 2>right around the time he and Tessa were filming those videos.

767
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:45.280
<v Speaker 2>There was a problem, though, When investigators first executed a

768
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:49.039
<v Speaker 2>search warrant after Wilson's arrest, they went to the wrong address.

769
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.760
<v Speaker 2>Wilson had since moved into the basement of his mother's salon,

770
00:39:53.119 --> 00:39:56.159
<v Speaker 2>and that's where they searched first. They found blood in

771
00:39:56.199 --> 00:40:00.280
<v Speaker 2>a stairwell, which briefly raised hopes until testing reveal that

772
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.760
<v Speaker 2>it belonged to a painter who had cut his hand

773
00:40:02.800 --> 00:40:05.320
<v Speaker 2>on the job. It had nothing to do with Mackenzie.

774
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:09.239
<v Speaker 2>They realized their mistake, regrouped, got a new warrant, and

775
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:13.360
<v Speaker 2>went to the Burke Hill apartment. When forensic investigators sprayed

776
00:40:13.360 --> 00:40:16.400
<v Speaker 2>the carpet with luminol, the stain lit up the same

777
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:20.360
<v Speaker 2>brownish patch that had appeared in the background of Tessa's photographs.

778
00:40:20.599 --> 00:40:23.400
<v Speaker 2>The same stain the camera had slowly zoomed in on

779
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:27.880
<v Speaker 2>in those June videos was glowing under the light. Investigators

780
00:40:27.880 --> 00:40:29.920
<v Speaker 2>cut out a section of the carpet and the pad

781
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:32.840
<v Speaker 2>beneath it, and sent both to the state crime lab.

782
00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:36.440
<v Speaker 2>The results came back conclusive. The blood in the carpet

783
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:41.280
<v Speaker 2>of Christopher Wilson's former apartment belonged to Mackenzie Cowl. It

784
00:40:41.320 --> 00:40:45.000
<v Speaker 2>was a significant development. Mackenzie had bled in that room

785
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:48.719
<v Speaker 2>whatever had happened to her, whatever the first terrible thing

786
00:40:48.800 --> 00:40:51.320
<v Speaker 2>that had been done to her, some part of it

787
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:54.639
<v Speaker 2>had happened there. The blood evidence was enough to bring

788
00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:59.039
<v Speaker 2>Tessa back into focus too, but despite the photographs, the videos,

789
00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:04.119
<v Speaker 2>the panicked phone, and the convenient amnesia, investigators ultimately couldn't

790
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:07.119
<v Speaker 2>place her at the scene of Mackenzie's murder in any

791
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:10.519
<v Speaker 2>provable way. She was ruled out as a contributor to

792
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:13.760
<v Speaker 2>any of the DNA found near Mackenzie's body, and a

793
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:17.079
<v Speaker 2>thorough search of her car came up empty. Without physical

794
00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:20.519
<v Speaker 2>evidence tying her directly to the crime, the DA decided

795
00:41:20.559 --> 00:41:24.519
<v Speaker 2>not to pursue charges against her. Tessa walked, and as

796
00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:28.360
<v Speaker 2>soon as Wilson's case was resolved, she legally changed both

797
00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:31.480
<v Speaker 2>her first and last name and left the area Entirely

798
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:36.039
<v Speaker 2>where she went, nobody said publicly. In April twenty eleven,

799
00:41:36.199 --> 00:41:40.280
<v Speaker 2>prosecutors upgraded the charge against Christopher Wilson from second degree

800
00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:44.760
<v Speaker 2>murder to first degree murder. The argument was premeditation at

801
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:48.360
<v Speaker 2>the seventy two seconds, the borrowed car, the phone, behavior,

802
00:41:48.440 --> 00:41:50.719
<v Speaker 2>the duct tape, all of it pointed to a man

803
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:54.000
<v Speaker 2>who had planned what he was going to do. Wilson's

804
00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:57.480
<v Speaker 2>defense was led by John Henry Brown, a high profile

805
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:01.599
<v Speaker 2>Seattle attorney with a reputation for takeeking on difficult cases.

806
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:06.159
<v Speaker 2>Brown had defended Ted Bundy and other high profile defendants

807
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:09.800
<v Speaker 2>like Colton Harris Moore, better known as the Barefoot Bandit.

808
00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:12.719
<v Speaker 2>Brown was not someone who shied away from a fight,

809
00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:16.679
<v Speaker 2>and he came in with an aggressive strategy. The centerpiece

810
00:42:16.719 --> 00:42:20.719
<v Speaker 2>of that strategy was planted evidence. Brown intended to argue

811
00:42:20.719 --> 00:42:24.320
<v Speaker 2>that local law enforcement couldn't be trusted, that the small

812
00:42:24.360 --> 00:42:28.119
<v Speaker 2>amount of blood found in Wilson's apartment was inconsistent with

813
00:42:28.199 --> 00:42:31.639
<v Speaker 2>the sheer brutality of Mackenzie's murder, and that someone had

814
00:42:31.639 --> 00:42:35.119
<v Speaker 2>put it there. He pointed to the local police force's history,

815
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:38.559
<v Speaker 2>including the false child abuse arrests in the late nineties.

816
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:42.320
<v Speaker 2>Brown also planned to point the finger at Emmanuel Saros

817
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:45.599
<v Speaker 2>and Sam Kuavas, the drug dealers that Liz Reid had

818
00:42:45.599 --> 00:42:49.119
<v Speaker 2>accused early in the investigation. The judge ruled that the

819
00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:53.239
<v Speaker 2>defense would be permitted to present evidence implicating those men

820
00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:56.599
<v Speaker 2>at the trial. The judge handed the defense another victory

821
00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:00.360
<v Speaker 2>that was arguably even more significant. All of the evidence

822
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:04.639
<v Speaker 2>relating to Wilson's macabre interests. The funeral home history, the

823
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:09.039
<v Speaker 2>hannibal lector tattoo, the serial killer forums, the mannequin incidents.

824
00:43:09.239 --> 00:43:13.039
<v Speaker 2>They were all ruled too prejudicial to be admitted. The

825
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:16.280
<v Speaker 2>jury would never hear any of it on paper. At least,

826
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:19.440
<v Speaker 2>Wilson was going to trial as a regular person who

827
00:43:19.480 --> 00:43:21.719
<v Speaker 2>happened to have his DNA on a piece of duct

828
00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:25.039
<v Speaker 2>tape and the victim's blood in his carpet. The most

829
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:28.079
<v Speaker 2>damning portrait of who he was would never be painted

830
00:43:28.119 --> 00:43:28.760
<v Speaker 2>for the jury.

831
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:30.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't like where this is headed.

832
00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:33.760
<v Speaker 2>It looked going into the spring of twenty twelve like

833
00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:38.719
<v Speaker 2>Wilson might actually have a fighting chance. Then jury selection began.

834
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.199
<v Speaker 2>As prospective jurors filled out their written questionnaires, Wilson and

835
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:46.760
<v Speaker 2>his lawyer read through them carefully. What they found was stark.

836
00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:50.119
<v Speaker 2>Somewhere between eighty and eighty five percent of the jury

837
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:54.119
<v Speaker 2>pool either already believed that Wilson was guilty or had

838
00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:58.000
<v Speaker 2>been exposed to the very evidence the judge had ordered suppressed.

839
00:43:58.360 --> 00:44:01.679
<v Speaker 2>The prejudicial material had got out through press coverage and

840
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:04.239
<v Speaker 2>word of mouth, the way that these things travel in

841
00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:08.119
<v Speaker 2>a community the size of winatche Chris's lawyer Brown ran

842
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:10.559
<v Speaker 2>the numbers. If they went to trial with a jury

843
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:13.639
<v Speaker 2>pool like that, Wilson was looking at a near certain

844
00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:17.719
<v Speaker 2>conviction and a sentence of at least twenty years. Wilson

845
00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.840
<v Speaker 2>had previously rejected a plea deal. Prosecutors had offered roughly

846
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:25.119
<v Speaker 2>six and a half years for first degree manslaughter, and

847
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:27.760
<v Speaker 2>he had turned it down, saying he wanted to go

848
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:30.400
<v Speaker 2>to trial so that the truth could come out. But

849
00:44:30.480 --> 00:44:32.920
<v Speaker 2>the truth, as he now saw it, was that he

850
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:35.960
<v Speaker 2>wasn't going to get a fair hearing. On May twenty third,

851
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:39.320
<v Speaker 2>twenty twelve, just before opening statements were set to begin,

852
00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:43.079
<v Speaker 2>he accepted a new deal. He pleaded guilty to first

853
00:44:43.079 --> 00:44:47.119
<v Speaker 2>degree manslaughter, first degree robbery for taking Mackenzie's cell phone,

854
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:51.039
<v Speaker 2>and second degree assault for the unrelated choking incident at

855
00:44:51.039 --> 00:44:55.119
<v Speaker 2>the party weeks before the murder. Shelan County Superior Court

856
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.039
<v Speaker 2>Judge John Bridges sentenced him to fourteen years and three

857
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:02.840
<v Speaker 2>months in prison. When the media asked District Attorney Gary

858
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:05.679
<v Speaker 2>Reason why he had offered what some saw as a

859
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:09.519
<v Speaker 2>lenient deal for such a brutal crime, Reason was candid.

860
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:13.400
<v Speaker 2>The case had weaknesses. There was no clear motive, and

861
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:17.039
<v Speaker 2>while Mackenzie's blood was in Wilson's apartment, and his DNA

862
00:45:17.199 --> 00:45:19.760
<v Speaker 2>was on the duct tape near her body. His DNA

863
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:22.679
<v Speaker 2>had not been found on the murder weapon itself. It

864
00:45:22.800 --> 00:45:25.679
<v Speaker 2>wasn't the ironclad case that it might have appeared to

865
00:45:25.719 --> 00:45:29.719
<v Speaker 2>be from the outside. Wilson maintained his innocence even as

866
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.719
<v Speaker 2>he entered the plea. He later said from prison that

867
00:45:32.840 --> 00:45:35.280
<v Speaker 2>during the hearing he had wanted to look Red and

868
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:38.199
<v Speaker 2>Wendy Cowell in the eye and tell them directly that

869
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.880
<v Speaker 2>he hadn't done it. But the moment passed and then

870
00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:44.760
<v Speaker 2>it was over. Almost immediately after arriving at the Clllam

871
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Correctional Facility, he filed a motion to withdraw his guilty plea,

872
00:45:49.360 --> 00:45:51.400
<v Speaker 2>arguing that he wouldn't have been able to get a

873
00:45:51.440 --> 00:45:55.360
<v Speaker 2>fair trial. A judge denied the motion in June twenty thirteen.

874
00:45:55.840 --> 00:45:58.280
<v Speaker 2>He had made his choice. Now he had to live

875
00:45:58.320 --> 00:45:58.599
<v Speaker 2>with it.

876
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:01.679
<v Speaker 1>He must have regretted that because he was originally offered

877
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:05.440
<v Speaker 1>six years, which is ridiculous. Yeah, and then I mean

878
00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.280
<v Speaker 1>fourteen years is still ridiculous.

879
00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:11.559
<v Speaker 2>Christopher Scott Wilson was freed from the Monroe Correctional Center

880
00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:15.280
<v Speaker 2>on December eleventh, twenty twenty three, after serving just over

881
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:18.800
<v Speaker 2>eleven years of his sentence. He was released on parole

882
00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:23.119
<v Speaker 2>with three years of reporting requirements to a community custody officer.

883
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Beyond that, there's very little on the public record about

884
00:46:26.440 --> 00:46:28.440
<v Speaker 2>where he went or what he did next.

885
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:31.320
<v Speaker 1>To look on your head, my jaw is like on

886
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:34.480
<v Speaker 1>the desk here. But yeah, crazy to me that you

887
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.840
<v Speaker 1>let him out early. I know, yeah, he has a

888
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:41.920
<v Speaker 1>pittance of a sentence and then you let him out early.

889
00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:46.079
<v Speaker 2>And such a horrible crime that, Yeah, it just doesn't

890
00:46:44.960 --> 00:46:49.840
<v Speaker 2>it's not justice for McKenzie. When Acchi Washington was back

891
00:46:49.880 --> 00:46:52.400
<v Speaker 2>in the national news just a year ago for another

892
00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:55.000
<v Speaker 2>horrible crime, we talked about this yesterday, So I think

893
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:58.000
<v Speaker 2>you know that I'm referring to the murders of Peyton,

894
00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:02.199
<v Speaker 2>Evelyn and Olivia Decker, ages nine, eight to five, by

895
00:47:02.239 --> 00:47:05.679
<v Speaker 2>their father, Travis Decker, whose remains were later found. We

896
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:08.800
<v Speaker 2>talked about that case last summer when it was going on. Yeah,

897
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:13.079
<v Speaker 2>really heartbreaking case. Several days after Mackenzie's body was found,

898
00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:17.320
<v Speaker 2>on February twenty fifth, twenty ten, eighteen hundred people gathered

899
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:20.719
<v Speaker 2>at the Town Toyota Center in Wenatchi for a memorial

900
00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:24.239
<v Speaker 2>service in her honor. Eighteen hundred people in a city

901
00:47:24.280 --> 00:47:28.039
<v Speaker 2>of thirty thousand. It was a remarkable turnout, a community

902
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:31.840
<v Speaker 2>showing up to support Mackenzie's family, to grieve and to

903
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:36.400
<v Speaker 2>process an unimaginable loss. Reid Cowell believed that the right

904
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:39.719
<v Speaker 2>person had been convicted, even if his sentence wasn't what

905
00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:42.760
<v Speaker 2>it should have been. He told the press that Mackenzie

906
00:47:42.840 --> 00:47:45.079
<v Speaker 2>was the kind of person who would never have gone

907
00:47:45.119 --> 00:47:48.760
<v Speaker 2>anywhere with someone she didn't trust, which meant he believed

908
00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:51.079
<v Speaker 2>that Wilson must have found a way to earn that

909
00:47:51.159 --> 00:47:54.480
<v Speaker 2>trust before he used it against her. It's hard to

910
00:47:54.480 --> 00:47:57.119
<v Speaker 2>say that justice was done in this case, though, A

911
00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:01.840
<v Speaker 2>plea deal for manslaughter, not murder of fourteen years a

912
00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:04.440
<v Speaker 2>man who walked out of prison in twenty twenty three

913
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:07.039
<v Speaker 2>and went on with his life. For a family that

914
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:09.320
<v Speaker 2>lost a seventeen year old girl in one of the

915
00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:12.960
<v Speaker 2>most violent ways imaginable, it's not easy to make peace

916
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.559
<v Speaker 2>with that. Mackenzie Nicole Cowell would have turned thirty four

917
00:48:16.639 --> 00:48:20.400
<v Speaker 2>years old last month. She was, by every account, someone

918
00:48:20.440 --> 00:48:23.840
<v Speaker 2>who was just hitting her stride. A dancer, a student,

919
00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:26.920
<v Speaker 2>an athlete, a young woman with a packed schedule and

920
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:29.800
<v Speaker 2>a clear sense of where she was headed. Her father

921
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:33.039
<v Speaker 2>called her driven, vibrant, on the verge of growing up.

922
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:37.199
<v Speaker 2>Sadly she never got that chance. Rest in peace, Mackenzie.

923
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:41.639
<v Speaker 2>So we already talked about it, but clearly justice not

924
00:48:41.800 --> 00:48:44.719
<v Speaker 2>done in this case, and it's so frustrating. It does

925
00:48:44.760 --> 00:48:47.199
<v Speaker 2>seem like they were willing to make a deal because

926
00:48:47.239 --> 00:48:50.840
<v Speaker 2>the case wasn't ironclad. But it doesn't seem like it

927
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:53.039
<v Speaker 2>was a bad case either. I mean, they had her

928
00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:56.280
<v Speaker 2>blood in his apartment. They had his DNA, even though

929
00:48:56.280 --> 00:48:58.719
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't one hundred percent match, but they had his

930
00:48:58.840 --> 00:49:01.960
<v Speaker 2>DNA at the I'm seeing, it seems like even just

931
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:05.000
<v Speaker 2>with those things, that was probably enough to get a conviction.

932
00:49:05.159 --> 00:49:06.199
<v Speaker 2>But I don't know, what do you think? Do you

933
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:08.760
<v Speaker 2>think it made sense for the prosecution to make a deal.

934
00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:11.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, a lot of the evidence sounded like it was

935
00:49:11.159 --> 00:49:14.960
<v Speaker 1>going to be excluded, like his character and the things

936
00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:17.920
<v Speaker 1>that you know, showed that he was maybe obsessed with

937
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:20.880
<v Speaker 1>death right, you know, I don't know. I feel like

938
00:49:20.920 --> 00:49:24.320
<v Speaker 1>fourteen years or eleven years, it is just really sad

939
00:49:24.440 --> 00:49:28.440
<v Speaker 1>because Mackenzie's life was worth more than that sentence, and.

940
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:31.360
<v Speaker 2>He's still relatively young, and he is, you know, free

941
00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:33.440
<v Speaker 2>and free to live the rest of his life.

942
00:49:33.599 --> 00:49:36.239
<v Speaker 1>Chilling to know that a person like that is out

943
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:39.400
<v Speaker 1>on the streets, and the likelihood that he could kill again, yeah,

944
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:41.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure is pretty big.

945
00:49:41.440 --> 00:49:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And the fact that the judge excluded those things,

946
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:48.360
<v Speaker 2>to me doesn't make sense because assuming he did this crime,

947
00:49:48.360 --> 00:49:51.679
<v Speaker 2>which I believe he did, his motive was that he

948
00:49:51.760 --> 00:49:55.039
<v Speaker 2>was obsessed with death, and so all of those elements

949
00:49:55.079 --> 00:49:58.400
<v Speaker 2>to his character all seem very relevant to me, because

950
00:49:58.440 --> 00:50:00.880
<v Speaker 2>that really is what his motive was is to you know,

951
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:03.880
<v Speaker 2>he wanted to experience killing someone.

952
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think you said seventy two seconds after she

953
00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:11.000
<v Speaker 1>walked out, he walked out after her. Right, It's just

954
00:50:11.079 --> 00:50:14.639
<v Speaker 1>really I mean, bad planning on his part because you know,

955
00:50:14.719 --> 00:50:16.960
<v Speaker 1>he was going to be a prime suspect no matter

956
00:50:17.039 --> 00:50:19.559
<v Speaker 1>what happened. So it kind of shows that he was

957
00:50:19.639 --> 00:50:23.239
<v Speaker 1>that obsessed with with killing someone. It was like, you know,

958
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:26.719
<v Speaker 1>on his brain that he made that, you know, it

959
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:30.360
<v Speaker 1>kind of stupid decision. Right, What do they think happened?

960
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:33.079
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a good question actually, because I think

961
00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:37.679
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how he lured her to his apartment, Like, I.

962
00:50:37.639 --> 00:50:39.960
<v Speaker 1>Don't know, so they think that she was killed in

963
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:40.559
<v Speaker 1>his apartment.

964
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:42.679
<v Speaker 2>It sort of seems that way. But even that is

965
00:50:42.719 --> 00:50:46.400
<v Speaker 2>a little bit questionable because there wasn't a lot of blood, right, But.

966
00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:48.480
<v Speaker 1>You said he was obsessed with Dexter, so maybe he

967
00:50:48.559 --> 00:50:51.280
<v Speaker 1>had like Ezechtor style like saran wrap.

968
00:50:51.400 --> 00:50:54.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, invest scares were speculating that that could have

969
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:57.559
<v Speaker 2>been a possibility that he had learned from watching Dexter

970
00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:01.400
<v Speaker 2>how to kill someone without you know, a lot of blood.

971
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:05.000
<v Speaker 2>But we'll never know, unfortunately what actually happened, but it

972
00:51:05.119 --> 00:51:07.800
<v Speaker 2>is Yeah, it does make you wonder how how did

973
00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:10.280
<v Speaker 2>he actually you know, pull this off?

974
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:12.519
<v Speaker 1>Did he just think it was a crime of opportunity?

975
00:51:13.320 --> 00:51:14.199
<v Speaker 1>Were they friends?

976
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:16.119
<v Speaker 2>That's what I don't know. I don't know if they

977
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:18.719
<v Speaker 2>were or not. You know, I wasn't able to find

978
00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:21.679
<v Speaker 2>any information about whether they had any kind of relation.

979
00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:24.119
<v Speaker 2>And obviously they went to the same hair academy, but

980
00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:26.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't know beyond that if they had a friendship.

981
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:28.960
<v Speaker 2>But it seems like there must have been something there

982
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:32.440
<v Speaker 2>that caused her to go to his apartment without you know,

983
00:51:32.559 --> 00:51:33.320
<v Speaker 2>questioning it.

984
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:37.039
<v Speaker 1>And we don't know why McKenzie left class that day, right,

985
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:39.559
<v Speaker 1>And there were no text messages between those two that

986
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:40.840
<v Speaker 1>you know of, No.

987
00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:43.639
<v Speaker 2>No, really nothing One interesting thing about this case is

988
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.400
<v Speaker 2>this whole Liz Read story. This is the young woman

989
00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:49.719
<v Speaker 2>who came forward said that she knew the two guys

990
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:51.880
<v Speaker 2>that did this, and in fact, that they had filmed

991
00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:55.320
<v Speaker 2>the murder and that she saw the film. It's just

992
00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:58.039
<v Speaker 2>such a strange thing because they, you know, they ended

993
00:51:58.119 --> 00:51:59.960
<v Speaker 2>up not believing her at all, although there was a

994
00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:03.320
<v Speaker 2>little bit of evidence. Right, So she said that she

995
00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:06.360
<v Speaker 2>knew the knife that was killed, like she recognized it

996
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.159
<v Speaker 2>or was able to describe it. And they also found

997
00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:12.199
<v Speaker 2>a cigarette butt with DNA from one of these guys,

998
00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:15.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, on a bluff overlooking the river, not far

999
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.360
<v Speaker 2>from where the body was found. But what do you like,

1000
00:52:17.400 --> 00:52:19.760
<v Speaker 2>what do you make of that whole story. It seems

1001
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:23.920
<v Speaker 2>pretty clear to me that Christopher Wilson did this. But

1002
00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.639
<v Speaker 2>why did this person come forward?

1003
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:26.199
<v Speaker 1>Why?

1004
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:28.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't understand why someone would do that if it

1005
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:30.599
<v Speaker 2>wasn't there wasn't some truth to it.

1006
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:33.360
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it was a rumor. Maybe you know, it was

1007
00:52:33.400 --> 00:52:35.840
<v Speaker 1>just something that was floating around town. Because she sounds

1008
00:52:35.840 --> 00:52:38.639
<v Speaker 1>like she had a pretty established relationship with the police.

1009
00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:42.280
<v Speaker 1>They trusted her in these drug cases. Yeah, so maybe

1010
00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:43.480
<v Speaker 1>she did hear a rumor.

1011
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:45.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, It's just so strange that she would come forward

1012
00:52:45.840 --> 00:52:47.639
<v Speaker 2>and say, oh, I saw it. I saw a film

1013
00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:48.840
<v Speaker 2>of this, I saw them.

1014
00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:54.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Maybe she has an addiction problem and maybe she

1015
00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:55.599
<v Speaker 1>thought she saw something.

1016
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:57.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah I don't I really could. Yeah. I mean, there's

1017
00:52:57.760 --> 00:52:59.480
<v Speaker 2>no way to know. But it's just an odd sort

1018
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:00.000
<v Speaker 2>of footnote.

1019
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:02.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this whole and that's a good point. That did

1020
00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:05.559
<v Speaker 1>distract from the investigation for several months.

1021
00:53:05.639 --> 00:53:08.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. What do you think about Tessa Shiloman So? She

1022
00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:13.920
<v Speaker 2>was on again, off again girlfriend of Christopher Wilson. There

1023
00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:18.000
<v Speaker 2>was obviously communication going on between them that afternoon. She

1024
00:53:18.039 --> 00:53:21.159
<v Speaker 2>had called a boyfriend at the time and said, you know,

1025
00:53:21.199 --> 00:53:24.599
<v Speaker 2>it sounded like she was panicked, like something crazy had happened.

1026
00:53:24.800 --> 00:53:26.519
<v Speaker 2>Do you think they should have let her off the

1027
00:53:26.559 --> 00:53:29.079
<v Speaker 2>hook or do you think that there just wasn't enough

1028
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:30.400
<v Speaker 2>evidence there to do anything.

1029
00:53:30.639 --> 00:53:32.800
<v Speaker 1>I think if there was enough evidence, they would have

1030
00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:35.519
<v Speaker 1>arrested her to right. Well, you said that she changed

1031
00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:36.719
<v Speaker 1>her name and left town.

1032
00:53:36.800 --> 00:53:37.199
<v Speaker 2>Mm hmm.

1033
00:53:37.400 --> 00:53:40.000
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that's some sort of admission of guilt there.

1034
00:53:40.320 --> 00:53:42.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure whether it was an admission of guilt,

1035
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:44.840
<v Speaker 2>but certainly her name was tied to this case. In

1036
00:53:44.880 --> 00:53:47.639
<v Speaker 2>this relatively small town, So I'm sure in her mind

1037
00:53:47.679 --> 00:53:50.000
<v Speaker 2>it was just like, yeah, I can't. I can't stay

1038
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.320
<v Speaker 2>here anymore. I can't be the same person. The last

1039
00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:53.880
<v Speaker 2>thing I wanted to ask you about is we talked

1040
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:56.920
<v Speaker 2>at the beginning about when ATCHI it's had. It seems

1041
00:53:56.920 --> 00:53:59.280
<v Speaker 2>to me like way more than its fair share of

1042
00:53:59.639 --> 00:54:04.159
<v Speaker 2>really horrific crimes and other events. I'm reading the book

1043
00:54:04.239 --> 00:54:06.320
<v Speaker 2>yet right now by Stephen King. I'm right in the

1044
00:54:06.360 --> 00:54:08.280
<v Speaker 2>middle of it, and it's sort of about a town

1045
00:54:08.360 --> 00:54:11.280
<v Speaker 2>that is kind of cursed, like it has like the

1046
00:54:11.320 --> 00:54:14.000
<v Speaker 2>town itself has sort of evil built.

1047
00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:15.760
<v Speaker 1>In And I don't it take place in Dairy.

1048
00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:18.719
<v Speaker 2>It takes place in Dairy, Maine. But I just you

1049
00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:20.719
<v Speaker 2>hear about stuff like this, and you're like, is this

1050
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:23.800
<v Speaker 2>city like cursed? Does it have? Is there something about

1051
00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:26.440
<v Speaker 2>it that causes things to happen like this?

1052
00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:29.920
<v Speaker 1>Well you described this as the town, but do they

1053
00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:32.599
<v Speaker 1>have like a math problem right now? Like is it

1054
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:35.840
<v Speaker 1>a town where you know, like the apple industry is there,

1055
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:38.559
<v Speaker 1>but the apple industry is shrinking, and you know people

1056
00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:40.360
<v Speaker 1>are having a hard time because a lot of time

1057
00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:44.039
<v Speaker 1>that's what happens. Yeah, when you know a place has

1058
00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:47.599
<v Speaker 1>their economy is going downhill. You know, that's when a

1059
00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:49.519
<v Speaker 1>lot of problems happen. Is that the case in.

1060
00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:51.840
<v Speaker 2>What I I don't get that sense. And I don't

1061
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:54.400
<v Speaker 2>think like any of the incidents we talked about don't

1062
00:54:54.440 --> 00:54:57.280
<v Speaker 2>seem like any of them were driven by like any

1063
00:54:57.400 --> 00:54:59.960
<v Speaker 2>kind of you know, meth addiction or anything like that.

1064
00:55:00.159 --> 00:55:02.840
<v Speaker 2>So I don't know, maybe just coincidence. But I do

1065
00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:05.480
<v Speaker 2>also feel like in the Pacific Northwest it seems like

1066
00:55:05.559 --> 00:55:07.320
<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of serial killers.

1067
00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Talk about this before. I believe it's linked to, you know,

1068
00:55:10.480 --> 00:55:15.039
<v Speaker 1>the lack of the sun and thermware crimes in places

1069
00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:17.159
<v Speaker 1>where it's somewhat dreary.

1070
00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:19.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't know what causes that, but it's just

1071
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:22.519
<v Speaker 2>it's a strange thing that this town of Winacchi has had.

1072
00:55:22.559 --> 00:55:26.199
<v Speaker 1>That said, I think the Pacific Northwest is a beautiful

1073
00:55:26.920 --> 00:55:29.599
<v Speaker 1>We're not implying that, you know, it's not a lovely

1074
00:55:29.639 --> 00:55:32.719
<v Speaker 1>place to live. I just seemed like this, this Winacchi

1075
00:55:33.199 --> 00:55:36.079
<v Speaker 1>has had its unfair percentage of crimes.

1076
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:36.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1077
00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:39.280
<v Speaker 1>So do you think that Christopher's motive was just that

1078
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:41.280
<v Speaker 1>he wanted to kill someone?

1079
00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:43.440
<v Speaker 2>I believe so, just based on what we know of

1080
00:55:43.519 --> 00:55:47.559
<v Speaker 2>his background, his obsession with death, some of the allegations

1081
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:50.400
<v Speaker 2>about his funeral home behavior. It sure seems like that

1082
00:55:50.639 --> 00:55:52.800
<v Speaker 2>is the only motive I can I can think would

1083
00:55:52.840 --> 00:55:53.360
<v Speaker 2>make sense.

1084
00:55:53.639 --> 00:55:55.800
<v Speaker 1>I haven't said this in a while, but I believe

1085
00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:57.280
<v Speaker 1>that one of the ways that you can keep your

1086
00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:00.320
<v Speaker 1>family safe is to check the sex offender registered in

1087
00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:02.960
<v Speaker 1>your area every six months, especially if you have young

1088
00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:05.480
<v Speaker 1>kids that might be walking or taking the bus or

1089
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:09.719
<v Speaker 1>whatever that they're out of your eyesight. But this Christopher

1090
00:56:10.199 --> 00:56:13.760
<v Speaker 1>is we know that he has this fixation on murdering

1091
00:56:14.440 --> 00:56:17.800
<v Speaker 1>and death. There's no registry for like people that have

1092
00:56:18.039 --> 00:56:22.079
<v Speaker 1>committed a first degree or secondargrey murder or even you know,

1093
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:23.119
<v Speaker 1>assaulting st.

1094
00:56:23.159 --> 00:56:25.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and are now living next door or down the

1095
00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:26.239
<v Speaker 2>road from you.

1096
00:56:26.519 --> 00:56:29.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so your neighbor. That's kind of chilling, right, It

1097
00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:30.159
<v Speaker 1>is a little bit.

1098
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:32.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you would think I would. I would want to

1099
00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:34.639
<v Speaker 2>know if I was living down the street from this guy.

1100
00:56:34.760 --> 00:56:36.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, people have every right to start their life

1101
00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:39.920
<v Speaker 1>over and you know, yeah, but in this case, I mean,

1102
00:56:39.960 --> 00:56:42.400
<v Speaker 1>he was convicted of a pretty gruesome murder.

1103
00:56:42.480 --> 00:56:43.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty disturbing.

1104
00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:46.920
<v Speaker 1>You talked a little bit about the judge, or not

1105
00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:49.840
<v Speaker 1>the judge, but the jury and how when they were

1106
00:56:49.920 --> 00:56:52.360
<v Speaker 1>polled was it like eighty percent of them or whatever

1107
00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:57.199
<v Speaker 1>had a preconceived notion of Christopher. Yeah, because it's a

1108
00:56:57.239 --> 00:56:59.760
<v Speaker 1>small community and they'd read the newspapers, and you know,

1109
00:56:59.840 --> 00:57:02.360
<v Speaker 1>they they thought that he was already guilty. Do you

1110
00:57:02.440 --> 00:57:05.960
<v Speaker 1>think in that situation, if there was a trial here

1111
00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:08.400
<v Speaker 1>and you were serving as a jur that you would

1112
00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:11.599
<v Speaker 1>be able to separate what you'd heard in the news

1113
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:14.000
<v Speaker 1>to what you would hear in the trial. I think

1114
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:15.599
<v Speaker 1>it would be really hard thing to do.

1115
00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:17.360
<v Speaker 2>I think it would be a hard thing to do too,

1116
00:57:17.400 --> 00:57:20.960
<v Speaker 2>if you already have a preconceived notion of somebody before

1117
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:23.280
<v Speaker 2>you walk in. I mean that's why they moved trials

1118
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:26.440
<v Speaker 2>to different locations, which I didn't read anything about any

1119
00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:29.559
<v Speaker 2>motion to move the trial or anything like that, But yeah,

1120
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:32.199
<v Speaker 2>it would be hard as a juror in a small

1121
00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:33.960
<v Speaker 2>town if you already heard about the case.

1122
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:36.960
<v Speaker 1>In small knit communities, you just feel closer to your

1123
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:39.519
<v Speaker 1>friends and neighbors, and even if you don't know them,

1124
00:57:39.840 --> 00:57:43.000
<v Speaker 1>you would want justice or Mackenzie.

1125
00:57:43.159 --> 00:57:52.199
<v Speaker 2>Right before we wrap up, I thought we would continue

1126
00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:54.760
<v Speaker 2>our apple theme, and I want to you love a theme.

1127
00:57:54.920 --> 00:57:56.559
<v Speaker 2>I do love a theme, but I wanted to do

1128
00:57:57.119 --> 00:58:03.239
<v Speaker 2>a blind apple taste testy. So I have brought five apples,

1129
00:58:03.880 --> 00:58:07.159
<v Speaker 2>and we're gonna both taste them blindly and try and

1130
00:58:07.239 --> 00:58:10.800
<v Speaker 2>decide which ones we like in order and try to

1131
00:58:10.920 --> 00:58:12.840
<v Speaker 2>figure out which one is which. So I brought a

1132
00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Honey Crisp, a Fuji an Envy, a Cosmic Crisp, and

1133
00:58:17.960 --> 00:58:20.840
<v Speaker 2>a pink lady. Okay, all right, are you ready?

1134
00:58:21.000 --> 00:58:21.480
<v Speaker 1>I'm ready.

1135
00:58:21.519 --> 00:58:23.280
<v Speaker 2>All right, we can take a little break and do

1136
00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:26.840
<v Speaker 2>this off air, and then we'll come back and rank them. Okay,

1137
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:38.239
<v Speaker 2>all right, okay, so you just tried the five apples.

1138
00:58:38.280 --> 00:58:41.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So, first of all, I have extreme testing anxiety.

1139
00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:45.400
<v Speaker 1>If you say the words test or quiz, I instantly

1140
00:58:45.400 --> 00:58:48.559
<v Speaker 1>get Well, there's no pressure. I'm pretty sure I got

1141
00:58:48.639 --> 00:58:49.159
<v Speaker 1>none of them.

1142
00:58:49.239 --> 00:58:52.280
<v Speaker 2>Right. Well, it's more about what's your favorite and least favorite.

1143
00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:55.639
<v Speaker 1>But you were just quizzing me because I really wasn't thinking,

1144
00:58:55.760 --> 00:58:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Oh which am I enjoying?

1145
00:58:57.039 --> 00:58:57.679
<v Speaker 2>I am curious.

1146
00:58:57.760 --> 00:59:00.280
<v Speaker 1>I would say, out of the ones I taste, did

1147
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:03.320
<v Speaker 1>like number three, I was like, oh, this one's really mushy.

1148
00:59:03.679 --> 00:59:05.519
<v Speaker 1>So I'll tell you what. I what I I didn't

1149
00:59:05.559 --> 00:59:08.480
<v Speaker 1>rank them in my preference at all. Okay, Number one,

1150
00:59:08.840 --> 00:59:12.280
<v Speaker 1>I guess, Envy, two, Honey Crisp, three Pink Lady, four

1151
00:59:12.360 --> 00:59:16.320
<v Speaker 1>Cosmic Crisp, and five Fuji. Okay, but here's the thing.

1152
00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:20.480
<v Speaker 1>If you're taking like a taste test of something, a

1153
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:22.360
<v Speaker 1>lot of times you would use an apple as a

1154
00:59:22.400 --> 00:59:25.760
<v Speaker 1>palette cleanser. Yeah, and I had no palate cleanser, so

1155
00:59:25.800 --> 00:59:28.199
<v Speaker 1>it was just kind of like putting like something that's

1156
00:59:28.199 --> 00:59:30.920
<v Speaker 1>slightly you know, sweet, And it really hard.

1157
00:59:31.000 --> 00:59:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Which one would you say was your favorite? Though?

1158
00:59:32.559 --> 00:59:34.000
<v Speaker 1>If you had one thing, I don't know if I

1159
00:59:34.039 --> 00:59:36.840
<v Speaker 1>could say, because honestly, I was just trying to identify them.

1160
00:59:37.239 --> 00:59:39.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean, honey Crisp is probably my favorite apple, so

1161
00:59:40.280 --> 00:59:44.920
<v Speaker 1>I guess, uh, two and four might have been my preference.

1162
00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:47.159
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, but none of them were I don't know.

1163
00:59:47.199 --> 00:59:48.800
<v Speaker 1>So tell me how they did on the quiz.

1164
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:51.280
<v Speaker 2>You got the Pink Lady right, that was the one

1165
00:59:51.280 --> 00:59:53.039
<v Speaker 2>you got right. Interesting only when.

1166
00:59:52.880 --> 00:59:54.679
<v Speaker 1>I got right when you got right. So that's that

1167
00:59:54.800 --> 00:59:56.000
<v Speaker 1>is my history with test.

1168
00:59:56.320 --> 00:59:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Interesting that What I found most interesting here is you

1169
00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:02.039
<v Speaker 2>thought the food was a honey crisp. I know you

1170
01:00:02.079 --> 01:00:04.159
<v Speaker 2>love honey crisp, but you're not a big Fuji fan.

1171
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:07.480
<v Speaker 2>But the Fuji you you identified as a honey crisp.

1172
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:11.199
<v Speaker 1>Okay, I was actually the Fuji was number two. I

1173
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:14.559
<v Speaker 1>had a Fuji or Honey Crisp down actually, and then

1174
01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:16.639
<v Speaker 1>I tasted it again. I said, Honey Cris'm a horrible

1175
01:00:16.679 --> 01:00:18.719
<v Speaker 1>test taker. That's all I'm going to say. I hate quizzes.

1176
01:00:18.760 --> 01:00:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Please never make me take another one again, because it

1177
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:24.639
<v Speaker 1>makes me instantly feel insecure in that I was a

1178
01:00:24.639 --> 01:00:26.800
<v Speaker 1>fine student. I'm not saying like, you know, I, but

1179
01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:28.280
<v Speaker 1>I honest.

1180
01:00:28.320 --> 01:00:30.320
<v Speaker 2>I didn't really, I really really didn't mean to put

1181
01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:32.079
<v Speaker 2>you on the spot. It was more about like which

1182
01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:34.440
<v Speaker 2>ones do you like best and least? But yeah, I

1183
01:00:34.480 --> 01:00:36.239
<v Speaker 2>guess I should have made that a little more clear.

1184
01:00:36.559 --> 01:00:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but yeah, I did horrible. That's just that's just.

1185
01:00:40.719 --> 01:00:41.199
<v Speaker 2>That's okay.

1186
01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:43.000
<v Speaker 1>All right. So now you were going to.

1187
01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Yes, now you can give me a sample.

1188
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:46.679
<v Speaker 1>Would have had a heads up, and I would have

1189
01:00:46.679 --> 01:00:48.039
<v Speaker 1>made this trickier in some way.

1190
01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:48.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's okay.

1191
01:00:48.800 --> 01:00:50.679
<v Speaker 1>All right, Let's take a piece of bologney in here

1192
01:00:50.800 --> 01:00:51.280
<v Speaker 1>or something.

1193
01:00:51.400 --> 01:00:53.599
<v Speaker 2>Let's take a quick break and I will do a

1194
01:00:53.599 --> 01:00:59.360
<v Speaker 2>blind taste test. Now, I like to eat, eat, eat apple.

1195
01:01:02.679 --> 01:01:04.559
<v Speaker 1>I like to eat.

1196
01:01:05.840 --> 01:01:10.280
<v Speaker 2>As Okay, Well, I had a clear favorite. My favorite

1197
01:01:10.280 --> 01:01:12.480
<v Speaker 2>one was number two, and I think that was the Envy.

1198
01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:16.199
<v Speaker 2>You're correct, Okay, that was really good. I had number

1199
01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:16.639
<v Speaker 2>one down.

1200
01:01:16.719 --> 01:01:19.760
<v Speaker 1>As you know, I think, I like, we're obsessed with apples.

1201
01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:21.960
<v Speaker 1>But a few months ago, it was probably in the fall,

1202
01:01:22.159 --> 01:01:25.639
<v Speaker 1>you made a proclamation that Envy was your new favorite apple.

1203
01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:27.559
<v Speaker 1>So that is interesting that you got that correct.

1204
01:01:27.599 --> 01:01:29.159
<v Speaker 2>And I wasn't sure if I was going to stick

1205
01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:30.519
<v Speaker 2>with that or not, but I really think it was.

1206
01:01:30.679 --> 01:01:33.440
<v Speaker 2>I had number one down as a cosmic Crisp, number

1207
01:01:33.440 --> 01:01:36.239
<v Speaker 2>three as a Fuji, four as a honey Crisp, and

1208
01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:37.320
<v Speaker 2>five as a pink Lady.

1209
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:39.760
<v Speaker 1>So not surprisingly, out of the two of us, you

1210
01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:42.159
<v Speaker 1>are a much better test taker. Doesn't mean that you're

1211
01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:45.440
<v Speaker 1>more intelligent. I need to point out this test taking

1212
01:01:45.559 --> 01:01:49.480
<v Speaker 1>is a skill, and you got one on the test. Also,

1213
01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:51.800
<v Speaker 1>if you know me, I would be more likely to

1214
01:01:51.920 --> 01:01:55.159
<v Speaker 1>put the apples in alphabetical order. So did you know

1215
01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:57.800
<v Speaker 1>that I put the apples in alphabetical.

1216
01:01:57.679 --> 01:02:00.440
<v Speaker 2>Did not occur to me until you said that.

1217
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:02.639
<v Speaker 1>But also, I'd like to plan out that that early

1218
01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:05.159
<v Speaker 1>May late April is not the best time to be

1219
01:02:05.320 --> 01:02:06.280
<v Speaker 1>tasting apples.

1220
01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:08.000
<v Speaker 2>I thought of that too, but I was like, well,

1221
01:02:08.000 --> 01:02:11.239
<v Speaker 2>we're doing a case on Winacchi. The apple capital of

1222
01:02:11.239 --> 01:02:13.280
<v Speaker 2>the world. We have to do apples, so I but

1223
01:02:13.320 --> 01:02:14.760
<v Speaker 2>I agree it's not the perfect time.

1224
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:19.360
<v Speaker 1>And if our voices sound very clear and really good

1225
01:02:19.440 --> 01:02:21.679
<v Speaker 1>right now, it's because a lot of times if you

1226
01:02:21.719 --> 01:02:24.800
<v Speaker 1>read how do I have a better voice for podcasting,

1227
01:02:25.199 --> 01:02:28.280
<v Speaker 1>they will say eat apples or drink apple juice.

1228
01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:31.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, usually they say to eat a sour apple, like

1229
01:02:31.159 --> 01:02:33.840
<v Speaker 2>a green apple or something like that. But still either way.

1230
01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:38.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so your your favorite was the envy definitely.

1231
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:38.480
<v Speaker 2>I know.

1232
01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:41.920
<v Speaker 1>Honestly, I just had to I seriously get test anxiety

1233
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.519
<v Speaker 1>because I don't like anything in life that makes me

1234
01:02:44.639 --> 01:02:48.159
<v Speaker 1>feel stupider. I'm not a stupid You're.

1235
01:02:48.039 --> 01:02:50.159
<v Speaker 2>Totally I should have positioned it a different way, because

1236
01:02:50.199 --> 01:02:52.559
<v Speaker 2>really it was more about finding out what your favorite

1237
01:02:52.599 --> 01:02:53.119
<v Speaker 2>apple was.

1238
01:02:53.880 --> 01:02:58.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Okay, well you're right. That was a fun little detour.

1239
01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:00.719
<v Speaker 2>And I love doing blind taste tests.

1240
01:03:00.880 --> 01:03:03.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think in general blind taste tests are are

1241
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:04.119
<v Speaker 1>really fun.

1242
01:03:04.239 --> 01:03:06.239
<v Speaker 2>Sometime we're going to do a blind taste test of

1243
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:07.559
<v Speaker 2>bottled water brands.

1244
01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:11.880
<v Speaker 1>Oh okay, that's all. These are really compelling for listeners.

1245
01:03:11.920 --> 01:03:14.639
<v Speaker 1>People that are listening and you can't see I would

1246
01:03:14.679 --> 01:03:16.719
<v Speaker 1>like to do a taste test with you with like

1247
01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:19.239
<v Speaker 1>diet pepsi. You've seen like people do like, oh, this

1248
01:03:19.320 --> 01:03:22.480
<v Speaker 1>diepe pepsi is from McDonald's and this one is from

1249
01:03:22.519 --> 01:03:25.360
<v Speaker 1>the gas station and blah blah and whatever, because you

1250
01:03:25.440 --> 01:03:27.639
<v Speaker 1>drink a lot of diet pepsi and I.

1251
01:03:27.639 --> 01:03:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Have a very discerning palate when it comes to soda.

1252
01:03:30.519 --> 01:03:31.880
<v Speaker 1>Do you think you would be able to tell the

1253
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:33.960
<v Speaker 1>difference between I don't think you would be able to

1254
01:03:34.000 --> 01:03:36.679
<v Speaker 1>be like, oh, this one from this from McDonald's or whatever.

1255
01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:38.559
<v Speaker 1>But I think you might be able to say this

1256
01:03:38.559 --> 01:03:41.000
<v Speaker 1>one's from a can, this one's from a bottle, this

1257
01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:42.559
<v Speaker 1>one's from a fountain drink.

1258
01:03:42.679 --> 01:03:44.800
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I feel like I could say this is diet

1259
01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:47.599
<v Speaker 2>pepsi and this is diet coke. Beyond that, yeah, I'm

1260
01:03:47.599 --> 01:03:49.400
<v Speaker 2>not so sure. Oh, by the way, did you get

1261
01:03:49.440 --> 01:03:50.320
<v Speaker 2>the mail yesterday?

1262
01:03:50.840 --> 01:03:52.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? We hadn't gotten it a few days. There was

1263
01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:54.440
<v Speaker 1>a lot of stuff in there.

1264
01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:59.880
<v Speaker 2>No, it wasn't for Taylor's. We wasn't. Oh that's disappointing.

1265
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Thought it would come by now.

1266
01:04:00.920 --> 01:04:03.599
<v Speaker 1>So we know that Taylor Swift is listening to our podcast,

1267
01:04:03.639 --> 01:04:05.320
<v Speaker 1>of course, and I think that that would be I

1268
01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:08.880
<v Speaker 1>would be okay with doing a face reveal for Taylor

1269
01:04:08.920 --> 01:04:11.400
<v Speaker 1>Swift's wedding, Like we could go as the hosts of

1270
01:04:11.519 --> 01:04:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Love Mary Kill, Taylor Swift's favorite podcast. So you're listening, Taylor,

1271
01:04:16.920 --> 01:04:19.400
<v Speaker 1>don't feel like you can't invite us because we don't

1272
01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:21.800
<v Speaker 1>want to show our faces. But it's not that we

1273
01:04:21.880 --> 01:04:24.400
<v Speaker 1>are ugly. We just you know, have chosen to keep

1274
01:04:24.440 --> 01:04:26.239
<v Speaker 1>our faces private. And I think that would be a

1275
01:04:26.239 --> 01:04:28.039
<v Speaker 1>great time to think if you.

1276
01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Use your wedding as a face reveal for the Love

1277
01:04:30.480 --> 01:04:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Mary Kill host that would really get your wedding on

1278
01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the map, Like people would really start to pay attention

1279
01:04:34.960 --> 01:04:35.159
<v Speaker 2>to it.

1280
01:04:35.320 --> 01:04:37.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but then that would take away from the bride,

1281
01:04:37.599 --> 01:04:40.639
<v Speaker 1>and we don't want to take away from them. Maybe

1282
01:04:40.679 --> 01:04:43.480
<v Speaker 1>that's why we haven't gotten to save the day. Yeah, probably,

1283
01:04:43.559 --> 01:04:46.079
<v Speaker 1>So we're just kidding. I don't think we're going to

1284
01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:49.320
<v Speaker 1>care and invite, but I would go.

1285
01:04:49.719 --> 01:04:52.639
<v Speaker 2>I would totally go. And Taylor, if you are listening,

1286
01:04:52.760 --> 01:04:54.239
<v Speaker 2>we're happy to have you as a listener.

1287
01:04:54.280 --> 01:04:56.559
<v Speaker 1>You never know who's listening, you never know, you never know.

1288
01:04:56.679 --> 01:05:00.559
<v Speaker 2>And maybe wait, what's his name? Her husband from Travis.

1289
01:05:00.559 --> 01:05:02.360
<v Speaker 1>So that's why you're not going to get us invited

1290
01:05:02.519 --> 01:05:05.079
<v Speaker 1>because Travis Kelton. Maybe Travis is a listening he's a

1291
01:05:05.159 --> 01:05:09.360
<v Speaker 1>foot like seriously, yeah, probably, I'm a little ashamed of

1292
01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:09.960
<v Speaker 1>you right now.

1293
01:05:10.400 --> 01:05:12.039
<v Speaker 2>I got I came up with it. It just took

1294
01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:14.320
<v Speaker 2>me a couple of seconds. I get him and his

1295
01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:15.519
<v Speaker 2>brother mixed up. That's why.

1296
01:05:15.599 --> 01:05:16.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, what's his brother's name?

1297
01:05:16.760 --> 01:05:17.159
<v Speaker 2>Jason?

1298
01:05:17.280 --> 01:05:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right, I'll give you that. Have you ever

1299
01:05:19.440 --> 01:05:20.760
<v Speaker 1>listened to their podcast?

1300
01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Of course, I'm a regular listener.

1301
01:05:23.440 --> 01:05:25.639
<v Speaker 1>You don't listen it. You listen to zero podcast. I'm

1302
01:05:25.639 --> 01:05:26.960
<v Speaker 1>pretty sure. Tell me if I'm wrong.

1303
01:05:27.320 --> 01:05:29.360
<v Speaker 2>It's rare. Every once in a while. I will listen

1304
01:05:29.360 --> 01:05:31.199
<v Speaker 2>to something, but not very often.

1305
01:05:31.400 --> 01:05:34.280
<v Speaker 1>Usually it's because I force you to. Sometimes we're when

1306
01:05:34.320 --> 01:05:37.639
<v Speaker 1>we're on a road. Might but I listen to a

1307
01:05:37.679 --> 01:05:40.719
<v Speaker 1>lot of podcasts, not really true crime, although I do

1308
01:05:40.840 --> 01:05:42.880
<v Speaker 1>listen to datelines sometimes to go to sleep.

1309
01:05:43.000 --> 01:05:45.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I listen to our own podcast enough that I

1310
01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:47.239
<v Speaker 2>don't have room for other podcasts.

1311
01:05:48.079 --> 01:05:51.079
<v Speaker 1>You have listened to our own podcast. Nothing beats it

1312
01:05:51.360 --> 01:05:51.760
<v Speaker 1>that the.

1313
01:05:51.719 --> 01:05:54.360
<v Speaker 2>Bar is set so high that it would be hard

1314
01:05:54.360 --> 01:05:57.320
<v Speaker 2>for me to really enjoy and appreciate another podcast.

1315
01:05:57.679 --> 01:06:02.920
<v Speaker 1>Speaking of our podcast, it was such an eloquence segue,

1316
01:06:03.000 --> 01:06:05.519
<v Speaker 1>wasn't it, Yes, very much, So I just wanted to

1317
01:06:05.559 --> 01:06:09.320
<v Speaker 1>thank anyone who has commented on Reddit and shouted us out,

1318
01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:13.000
<v Speaker 1>because that really is so kind and generous and it

1319
01:06:13.039 --> 01:06:15.119
<v Speaker 1>really does help new listeners find the show.

1320
01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:16.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it really does.

1321
01:06:16.079 --> 01:06:18.239
<v Speaker 1>We appreciate you so much. I think you said the

1322
01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:22.760
<v Speaker 1>other day that on the house cleaning subreddit someone shouted

1323
01:06:22.840 --> 01:06:24.760
<v Speaker 1>us out. So it just makes me happy when I

1324
01:06:24.800 --> 01:06:28.280
<v Speaker 1>know that people are listening to us while they're working. Yeah,

1325
01:06:28.320 --> 01:06:30.320
<v Speaker 1>maybe we're making keeping them entertained.

1326
01:06:30.400 --> 01:06:32.400
<v Speaker 2>And well, there was another one. I think it was

1327
01:06:32.440 --> 01:06:34.119
<v Speaker 2>just yesterday. I didn't tell you about it yet, but

1328
01:06:34.159 --> 01:06:37.199
<v Speaker 2>it was on some subreddit about like relationship advice, and

1329
01:06:37.239 --> 01:06:40.519
<v Speaker 2>someone was talking about how their boyfriend cheated on her

1330
01:06:40.679 --> 01:06:42.639
<v Speaker 2>and then he wanted her back and she didn't know

1331
01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:45.039
<v Speaker 2>what to do. And somebody comment and said, oh girl,

1332
01:06:45.039 --> 01:06:47.480
<v Speaker 2>I've read about that. I've heard too many stories on

1333
01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:51.079
<v Speaker 2>Love Mary Kill that don't end well, so please be careful.

1334
01:06:51.440 --> 01:06:53.159
<v Speaker 2>So it is nice when people.

1335
01:06:53.000 --> 01:06:55.960
<v Speaker 1>That makes me happy, because if there's one mission that

1336
01:06:56.239 --> 01:06:59.639
<v Speaker 1>I personally have during the podcast is making not just

1337
01:06:59.679 --> 01:07:02.400
<v Speaker 1>women but people, you know, more informed about red flags

1338
01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:05.480
<v Speaker 1>and relationships. And totally, I know it's easy to say

1339
01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:07.760
<v Speaker 1>end that relationship, and I know not everyone can walk

1340
01:07:07.800 --> 01:07:11.280
<v Speaker 1>away that easily, and cleanly, but you know, by educating people,

1341
01:07:11.840 --> 01:07:14.199
<v Speaker 1>it just makes me happy if we can even save

1342
01:07:14.280 --> 01:07:16.000
<v Speaker 1>one person from a bad relationship.

1343
01:07:16.119 --> 01:07:19.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, thank you all so much for listening. Please rate, review,

1344
01:07:19.559 --> 01:07:22.880
<v Speaker 2>follow and subscribe, find us on social media, or send

1345
01:07:22.960 --> 01:07:26.000
<v Speaker 2>us an email at Lovemarykill at gmail dot com.

1346
01:07:26.239 --> 01:07:28.280
<v Speaker 1>So the other day I made a playlist of all

1347
01:07:28.320 --> 01:07:31.239
<v Speaker 1>of the songs that we have on Patreon. When we

1348
01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:33.480
<v Speaker 1>start our Patreon episodes, we do it a little different

1349
01:07:33.480 --> 01:07:35.800
<v Speaker 1>because I think you were throwing me a bone because

1350
01:07:35.840 --> 01:07:37.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't like our theme song and you do. So

1351
01:07:37.800 --> 01:07:40.159
<v Speaker 1>when we do our Patreon episodes, we just play a song.

1352
01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:43.000
<v Speaker 1>And I made a playlist and it made me realize

1353
01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:46.519
<v Speaker 1>that we have like thirty five episodes full length episodes

1354
01:07:46.559 --> 01:07:50.039
<v Speaker 1>over on Patreon. So please consider supporting us on Patreon.

1355
01:07:50.119 --> 01:07:53.239
<v Speaker 1>Go to patreon dot com slash Love Mary Kill for

1356
01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:56.719
<v Speaker 1>five dollars a month you get early and help me

1357
01:07:56.760 --> 01:08:02.920
<v Speaker 1>out earlier episodes, and a monthly benne a monthly until

1358
01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:05.360
<v Speaker 1>next time. Don't kill your husband and don't kill your wife.

1359
01:08:13.480 --> 01:08:13.519
<v Speaker 2>M