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Speaker 3: All right, Edward McLaren, Welcome back to the show. How
Speaker 3: are you doing? Man?
Speaker 6: Doing pretty good? Yeah, I just came back from a
Speaker 6: very long run, so I'm feeling all pumped to talk
Speaker 6: about the book.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So our last episode highly reviewed. People really liked it.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 3: And then that you mentioned the novel that you wrote.
Speaker 3: I've read it. Thanks to my unfortunate experience with American
Speaker 3: air travel, I had plenty of time to go over
Speaker 3: it and you know, sort of powered through it in
Speaker 3: one setting. Before we get into it, I just will
Speaker 3: say it's it's quite good. If you're you know, if
Speaker 3: you just want my simple review, buy it and read it.
Speaker 3: It's not what I would say, the most pleasant novel,
Speaker 3: but given the subject matter that's understanding, it is well done.
Speaker 3: It's worth your time. But just before we went live,
Speaker 3: you you were talking about exactly that dynamic, you know,
Speaker 3: the sort of pleasure enjoyment of reading a novel, and
Speaker 3: you know, before we get into kind of the very
Speaker 3: grim subject matter. I'd be curious to get your thoughts
Speaker 3: on that. Well.
Speaker 6: The design philosophy behind this thing actually comes more from
Speaker 6: film than it does from novels. As such, I initially
Speaker 6: really wanted to be a film director when I was say,
Speaker 6: fourteen fifteen. I watched all of the classic movies you
Speaker 6: know that was at the Battle of Algiers, petent Kin,
Speaker 6: all this Tarkowski and so on. And now, of course
Speaker 6: film has completely disappeared from my interest. But Tony Kaye,
Speaker 6: who directed American History Acts, who I think is funny
Speaker 6: for a number of reasons. Whilst disliking him, namely him
Speaker 6: getting so royally pissed off about Edward Norton wanting to
Speaker 6: change the ending of his film. He thought that if
Speaker 6: you're taking a serious subject and trying to make a
Speaker 6: film out of it, there's no reason you have to
Speaker 6: go all Bellatar and slow everything down and make the
Speaker 6: experience of consuming this product deeply, deeply awful as awful
Speaker 6: as the subject matter. He thought, No, I'm going to
Speaker 6: edit this kind of like I do my advertisements for TV,
Speaker 6: and I'm going to make sure that there is esthetic
Speaker 6: pleasure to keep the person going in right the novel,
Speaker 6: which maybe you can tell I did very very quickly.
Speaker 6: I thought this is a subject that no one, especially
Speaker 6: in the bourgeoisie, who are partly responsible through their ignorance
Speaker 6: of allowing the grooming gangs to proliferate. These people should
Speaker 6: be able to read this thing and kind of get
Speaker 6: something out of it. Otherwise they're just not going to
Speaker 6: process the data. They're not going to sit down and read,
Speaker 6: say Professor Allison Shaw's book what was it called again,
Speaker 6: Kinship and Continuity, which looks at the deep history of
Speaker 6: Pakistani communities in Oxford and by extension, Britain as a whole.
Speaker 6: They're not going to go over the Casey Report. They're
Speaker 6: not going to look at crime statistics. They're not even
Speaker 6: going to look, for instance, at the route at Low
Speaker 6: Rape Gang Inquiry, although I do like through but gang
Speaker 6: Rape Gang Inquiry because they create all of these little
Speaker 6: graphics that reveal something horrifying from the victim's testimony. Unfortunately,
Speaker 6: we live in the twenty first century. We are all
Speaker 6: consumers the instincts have been stimulated irrevocably, and in order
Speaker 6: for something to linger and last within the human memory,
Speaker 6: it has to take the form of a product that
Speaker 6: someone can process and enjoy. And whilst that might seem
Speaker 6: a little bit vulgar for a subject such as this,
Speaker 6: it is completely necessary, at least to my mind, that
Speaker 6: something like that takes place.
Speaker 3: Yes, And when I when I say I didn't enjoy it,
Speaker 3: that doesn't mean it's not good. That doesn't mean it
Speaker 3: doesn't have weight to it. But it means that, you know,
Speaker 3: if you're if you have a certain sensitivity right to
Speaker 3: reading a novel, it does not it's not a good feeling.
Speaker 3: Now that is separate from quality, of course, And I'm
Speaker 3: glad you brought up the you know, example of American
Speaker 3: history XC and that sort of that sort of I
Speaker 3: guess you could say strategy, because I have certainly had
Speaker 3: the experience of reading something which is so awful, even
Speaker 3: if it is you know, accurately rendering that it sort
Speaker 3: of becomes numbing, right, It sort of it overloads your
Speaker 3: ability to to sort of absorb what is going on.
Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, this is a critique often made of
Speaker 3: soldier needs it right where it's like, okay, like I
Speaker 3: understand this is awful, but after page six hundred, my
Speaker 3: capacity to absorb it has been reached. And I, like
Speaker 3: many people, did not finish The Jeatson for exactly that reason.
Speaker 3: And I think that you know, the the esthetic sensibilities
Speaker 3: that you have keeps it keeps you away from that trap,
Speaker 3: and particularly the the opening to the book, which is
Speaker 3: sort of an artistic understanding of the history of this
Speaker 3: town or this village, and it's incredibly moving. And as
Speaker 3: someone who has not spent much time you know, in
Speaker 3: your in your home country, it's it. It's something I
Speaker 3: particularly enjoy from from novels, which is having works that
Speaker 3: have a very strong sense of place. This is why
Speaker 3: I love you know that the Southern Gothics, This is
Speaker 3: why I you know, even you know other places I've
Speaker 3: never been. I think of, Oh, never mind, it was
Speaker 3: a French author whose name I can't remember, but you know,
Speaker 3: a very similar thing. And so the pros in it
Speaker 3: is moving, you know, it pulls you into the the
Speaker 3: narrative at just a side there. So I'm curious to
Speaker 3: what degree is your knowledge of this subject matter and
Speaker 3: of this area autobiographical and personal, not that you are
Speaker 3: the main character by any means, but are you pulling
Speaker 3: from personal experience?
Speaker 6: Oh, an enormous amount. There was a conversation I had
Speaker 6: with this very good journalist called Bradley Stratton on the subject,
Speaker 6: and here assumed that certain aspects of the book were
Speaker 6: actually made up or satirical when they when they weren't
Speaker 6: at all. So, for example, there's one moment where the
Speaker 6: main character is I think in the early years of
Speaker 6: his secondary school, and he gets into a fight with
Speaker 6: a boy aptly named Muhammad and is then sent to
Speaker 6: this therapist who is called Miir, who was obsessed with
Speaker 6: bell hooks, and and you're not allowed to spell this
Speaker 6: woman's name without a capitual letter, and of course I
Speaker 6: instinctively actually spell her name with capital letters in the book,
Speaker 6: just to sort of, you know, rub it in that woman.
Speaker 3: I noticed that by that way, Thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 6: No worries that that woman was a real person that
Speaker 6: I was assigned in the middle of therapy. And this
Speaker 6: was when I was being canceled, I think, in my
Speaker 6: second year at university, and I was talking about the
Speaker 6: fact that I believed in freedom of speech, and she
Speaker 6: was talking about how all of that white nonsense must
Speaker 6: go no matter what. The other thing that has come
Speaker 6: up recently is that via just directly researching the grooming
Speaker 6: gang phenomenon in more detail in places that surround me,
Speaker 6: I won't go into detail in case I get a
Speaker 6: nail bomb. One always discovers that there's more of it
Speaker 6: than you expected. There are some extremely posh towns in
Speaker 6: the British South, in the Home Counties that we used
Speaker 6: as trafficking spots. I mentioned Oxford before we started having
Speaker 6: this conversation, but there is this place in Oxford which
Speaker 6: is called the Nanford Guesthouse, or at least it was,
Speaker 6: and it was one of the major trafficking sites, and
Speaker 6: it's one of the only trafficking sites that was released
Speaker 6: to the public and it was disclosed because of the
Speaker 6: borderline private investigations of one Simon Morton. I went there
Speaker 6: and it is now called the Rassa Syang House. And
Speaker 6: Russa Siong is a Malay phrase which means sensation of
Speaker 6: love and it's related to this song Rasasion that they
Speaker 6: sing in Malaysia and Indonesia about getting all the girls,
Speaker 6: getting all the lovely young girls. Given that six out
Speaker 6: of eight of the Oxford Guomingang ringleaders have now been
Speaker 6: released from prison because they have completed half of their sentence,
Speaker 6: and that is supposedly how the British prison system works.
Speaker 6: What are the odds that they are not there?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 6: What if I went there with a camera and I
Speaker 6: just lingered outside that place and similar destinations like Premier Ins,
Speaker 6: and I saw what was going on. So on the
Speaker 6: one hand, as the memoir aspect of me just drawing
Speaker 6: from the absurdity of my own experience and the fact that,
Speaker 6: for instance, the poem Colonization in Reverse was an optional
Speaker 6: poem for my English GCSE, which is the exam that
Speaker 6: you do midway through high school, which celebrates Jamaican people
Speaker 6: colonize in England in reverse.
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Speaker 6: And on the other hand, there the fact that I
Speaker 6: am constantly now plumbing the depths of my own psyche
Speaker 6: to try and work out if, say, when I was ten, twelve, fifteen,
Speaker 6: eighteen nineteen yesterday, there was a sign of that kind
Speaker 6: of human trafficking going on in the background that I
Speaker 6: just didn't pick up on, because it's all there, and
Speaker 6: there is always this ced underside in every little town
Speaker 6: or zone that you go to. An enemy of mine
Speaker 6: who I will not name, described the opening of the
Speaker 6: novel as quasish Bengalarian, and I regard that as a
Speaker 6: very high compliment. The other thing that I would mention
Speaker 6: is I think there is, leaving aside the Southern Gothic genre,
Speaker 6: which I also enjoy, something peculiarly British and or European
Speaker 6: about the novel, in that if you look at Shirley
Speaker 6: Jackson's Hill House, the line the opening line is something
Speaker 6: like hill House had stood for eighty two years. Meanwhile,
Speaker 6: I am living currently in a building that is called
Speaker 6: hill House. And this place has been here since the
Speaker 6: Georgian period at least, so it is significantly older than
Speaker 6: what we would now call the United States by and large.
Speaker 6: And there is a pub further down my lane that
Speaker 6: is from the fourteenth or thirteenth century, further than this.
Speaker 6: Whereas in the American Psyche, and this is something that
Speaker 6: I'm trying to get into in the sequel, to a
Speaker 6: certain extent, there is this sense that you're on someone
Speaker 6: else's ancestral land, and there are all of these Native
Speaker 6: American burial grounds filled with ghosts and revenants and angry specters,
Speaker 6: like in Stephen King's The Shining, They're going to come
Speaker 6: out and get you. In Britain, the ghosts are your
Speaker 6: own ancestors, and they have been here since the beginning,
Speaker 6: which is why there's this dynamic, not to spoil too much,
Speaker 6: that I'm now focusing on, where you have a Muslim
Speaker 6: family who are written somewhat sympathetically and living in the
Speaker 6: middle of London, who developed this idea after one of
Speaker 6: the girls in the household plays this game until Dawn,
Speaker 6: which is about Wendigo, that all of the English people
Speaker 6: living in the countryside are these the monic Wendigo that
Speaker 6: are sort of surging up and eventually they'll be driven away.
Speaker 6: And the ghosts in the house because there is a
Speaker 6: vague supernatural element, the ghosts in their house are wondering
Speaker 6: why the hell they're there? Why are these Why are
Speaker 6: these Iranians that I've seen on postcards that my husband
Speaker 6: has sent me from the New World in I don't know,
Speaker 6: sixteen ninety or something like that, now dwelling in my abode?
Speaker 6: What is going on? Yes, So that sprawl should answer
Speaker 6: two of the angles that you were trying to address,
Speaker 6: and then throw a little bit more in for good.
Speaker 3: One of the interesting dynamics is, obviously, in a global sense,
Speaker 3: culturally you and I are cousins, but there are certain
Speaker 3: aspects about your culture that, just because of distance, are
Speaker 3: relatively opaque to me. And I think that you know,
Speaker 3: whether it was that that series Adolescence, that Game Pathways
Speaker 3: that came out not too long ago, or this novel,
Speaker 3: I didn't realize the degree to which aggressive anti racist
Speaker 3: psychotherapy is weaponized against young men in your country. And
Speaker 3: you know, sure I've spoken about a similar, albeit slightly
Speaker 3: less aggressive version of that system that exists in my nation,
Speaker 3: perhaps less politically focused, but particularly I found the series
Speaker 3: of instances where you know, our main character is in therapy,
Speaker 3: whether kind of before or after shall we say, the
Speaker 3: dramatic moment, but also the presence of medication in this
Speaker 3: book right as a literal controlling mechanism is something that
Speaker 3: you know, thankboy, I have not experienced, but I have
Speaker 3: seen many of my peers, and I was wondering if
Speaker 3: you could speak about that element in the book.
Speaker 6: I think that's a really incisive observation. The other thing is,
Speaker 6: I think it's gotten significantly worse now because just to
Speaker 6: do a sort of nemapavin elite theory analysis of what's occurring,
Speaker 6: and assuming that countries such as they are are run
Speaker 6: in organizational and industrial capacities where you're trying to make
Speaker 6: sure this number of people get that much food so
Speaker 6: they don't misbehave or vice versa. The government has, to
Speaker 6: put it briefly, realized that they fucked up with the phones.
Speaker 6: They've realized they fucked up with the phones and the
Speaker 6: computers and children having these devices that they can use
Speaker 6: to collect data on them like cattle for their whole lives,
Speaker 6: and that this has destroyed people's attention spans. And so
Speaker 6: now you find incidentally, these mass diagnosis can pains for
Speaker 6: antidepressants and especially ADHD medication, which are seemingly designed just
Speaker 6: to make them function without doing away with the iPhone
Speaker 6: or the computer or anything like that, or imposing more
Speaker 6: strict regulations on those things. They are intentionally drugging the population,
Speaker 6: at least to my mind, although I'm going out on
Speaker 6: the limb when I'm saying this, to make sure that
Speaker 6: they keep working. As for the schooling system, by and large,
Speaker 6: a point that you made last time that I don't
Speaker 6: think I dealt with enough is what you regarded as
Speaker 6: the endemic nature of feminism within British society versus American society,
Speaker 6: where there's a component of it, but there's also this
Speaker 6: broader idea of the Democrat coalition, and I thought that
Speaker 6: you were right on the money with that, and I
Speaker 6: had to go away and think about it. And much
Speaker 6: in the same way that you could say that progressivism
Speaker 6: going to South Korea was an awful cocktail, because it
Speaker 6: combined a society that was already exceedingly maternalistic and nannying
Speaker 6: with an ideology that gave a sort of blank check
Speaker 6: for nannying disciplining behavior. You could say the same thing
Speaker 6: is true about Britain. It could be argued that the
Speaker 6: reason why we didn't have much of the trans thing
Speaker 6: versus the United States is because we already had this
Speaker 6: turf class empowered in our society, and they didn't want
Speaker 6: to be playing second fiddle next to men dressing up
Speaker 6: as women, or auto gynophiles or poor deranged autistic kits
Speaker 6: of one sort or another. And so rather than that
Speaker 6: being a victory for democracy and free speech or our people,
Speaker 6: it was just them stolidly trying to remain in power.
Speaker 6: And these are all of the people who are in
Speaker 6: the medical professions. These are all of the people who
Speaker 6: are nurses, These are all of the people, especially who
Speaker 6: are guidance counselors at schools. These are all of the
Speaker 6: people who are matrons. We mentioned our mutual friend Ed
Speaker 6: Dutton a while back. He is right to point out
Speaker 6: that these people are disproportionately high in narcissism and are
Speaker 6: using children, especially boys, as conduits for their own vengefulness
Speaker 6: towards the world in one way or another. And I think,
Speaker 6: again not to give too much away, this really comes
Speaker 6: out in the character Fauna, or as he was originally called, Frederick.
Speaker 6: I'll get into it a bit more. I know you
Speaker 6: were on the verge of saying something, but Fauna is
Speaker 6: this true male to female transgender autistic who's very analytic
Speaker 6: in his theory of mind and really really likes Plato
Speaker 6: and physics and sort of synthesizes these two components. He's
Speaker 6: one of the very few characters who was smarter than
Speaker 6: the main character, and significantly so. And yet he has
Speaker 6: ultimately bought hook Line and Sinker into the system. And
Speaker 6: he does this by allowing the system to change him
Speaker 6: and allowing himself to be convinced that there's no way out.
Speaker 6: He's never going to be loved, he's never going to
Speaker 6: be successful, and both because of his own degree of
Speaker 6: internal narcissism as well as his autism. He thinks, great,
Speaker 6: I'll just adopt all of these you know names that
Speaker 6: the system wants me to use in order to succeed,
Speaker 6: and I'll permit them to perform surgery on me so
Speaker 6: that I can exist and my existence can be tolerated.
Speaker 6: And I knew when I was at university these four
Speaker 6: computer programmers who were associated with this one girl that
Speaker 6: nobody really liked, especially me, and all of them within
Speaker 6: the space of about five months, transitioned. And they did
Speaker 6: it because they were not especially attractive, not charismatic, but
Speaker 6: very very smart, autistically minded men who felt themselves separated
Speaker 6: from their own being and felt that they could moderate
Speaker 6: this through some logical system of one sort or another.
Speaker 6: That the number of men, especially in Britain and in
Speaker 6: Scotland in particular, who have been permanently damaged by this
Speaker 6: sort of stuff is simply unreal. And to a certain extent,
Speaker 6: I think the Turfs. The Turfs are opposed to them
Speaker 6: and opposed to their mania and wanting to enter women's spaces,
Speaker 6: because they also regard them as a threat on their own,
Speaker 6: even if they hadn't transitioned as autistic men who can
Speaker 6: organize and who can innovate, and do not like living
Speaker 6: in a sort of nanny Mucci savella, which is what
Speaker 6: modern Britain has become.
Speaker 3: It's a depressingly accurate term. It's interesting because it was
Speaker 3: exactly the character that is going to bring up because
Speaker 3: in a worse novel.
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Speaker 3: That character would be written very differently, and we see Jack,
Speaker 3: we see our main character instinctively recoil and at a
Speaker 3: certain point in the novel sort of grow to hate Fauna.
Speaker 3: But his role is quite interesting in the narrative. We
Speaker 3: come to as the audience develop a great deal of
Speaker 3: sympathy and you realize that effectively, Jack and Fauna are
Speaker 3: very similar. Effectively, the split was how do you react
Speaker 3: to the nanny McPhee flavella. Do you oppose it, bring
Speaker 3: that what it may or do you say, well, I'll
Speaker 3: double down, you know, I will do exactly what I
Speaker 3: need to. And it's interesting you bring that up because
Speaker 3: the first transgender person I ever met was my freshman
Speaker 3: year at college. I didn't last long at this college
Speaker 3: for reasons that you could you can no doubt survise.
Speaker 3: But and it was the one Scott on campus, right
Speaker 3: And okay, sure that's a literal sample size of one,
Speaker 3: but it very much seemed to be a similar situation
Speaker 3: where and to be fully honest, I did not know
Speaker 3: this person was transgender. I thought they were just a
Speaker 3: computer programmer and kind of weird. I assumed it was
Speaker 3: just an odd guy until he went into the the
Speaker 3: women's storm, and I said, oh wait a minute, now,
Speaker 3: he's not just Scottish. Turns out as another level there.
Speaker 3: But the point is, I think that that's a very
Speaker 3: fascinating element in this book, particularly because we see after
Speaker 3: sort of and we'll we'll speak about this obviously, this
Speaker 3: book is about, you know, the grooming game scandal. We
Speaker 3: see Fauna return in sort of the last third as
Speaker 3: a unlikely ally, which again I think in a cheaper
Speaker 3: version of this story, that character would be you know,
Speaker 3: we were deemed and beli eevil and I think that
Speaker 3: that was a very elegant way to bring that character back.
Speaker 3: And so I'm curious, what were you what were you
Speaker 3: attempting to do with that?
Speaker 6: I think, as you've alluded to already, I was trying
Speaker 6: to stress that politics aside, there is this solidarity that
Speaker 6: one finds amongst young men. And if you're a young man,
Speaker 6: you are indelibly shaped by the system that we live under,
Speaker 6: especially the educational aspects, and consequently there is more in
Speaker 6: common between these different factions of young men than expected.
Speaker 6: If you just assume that you're analysis of the world
Speaker 6: that is sincere and direct and empirical is true, then
Speaker 6: you also know that the men who transition or decide
Speaker 6: to buy into the overcoding that the system wants to
Speaker 6: impose on them have some of the same data that
Speaker 6: you have, and in fact, in a different world, would
Speaker 6: have potentially been your friend or ally. An aspect of
Speaker 6: the Fauner character that I find upsetting even when I
Speaker 6: go over it is the fact that he so obviously
Speaker 6: could have been the friend that the main character so
Speaker 6: dearly needed as he was going through all of this stuff,
Speaker 6: because he's a fellow sufferer, he has been through it himself,
Speaker 6: and yet because of the nature of his own identity
Speaker 6: and the faustian bargain not in the stranglarian sense that
Speaker 6: he has made, he cannot acknowledge any of this solidarity,
Speaker 6: and it becomes completely wasted. And another aspect of this
Speaker 6: is the fact that the girl character Agatha, who is
Speaker 6: the sort of sacrificial victim in the whole thing, was
Speaker 6: formally helped by Fauna before act. Fawner knew about him,
Speaker 6: and sorry knew about her, seemingly whilst he was still
Speaker 6: using his own name. And so because of the failure
Speaker 6: of that initiatic ritual of masculinity, please help me, please,
Speaker 6: save me, he inverts his own identity in order to
Speaker 6: continue to live comfortably and personally. When people have come
Speaker 6: to me and confronted me with something terrible that's happened
Speaker 6: to them, I do feel I must say this kind
Speaker 6: of chivalrous urge to assist, and if I didn't do that,
Speaker 6: I would be totally renouncing an aspect of my own identity.
Speaker 6: I think my editor, I won't say her name, but
Speaker 6: she put this to me quite well by suggesting that
Speaker 6: underneath the sort of horrible, shredded postmodernity that one sees
Speaker 6: in the book, there is this kind of fantasy world,
Speaker 6: and not in the sense of it being unreal, but
Speaker 6: this world of knights and shield maidens and miss cole
Speaker 6: beasts that can be assailed and confronted. But because all
Speaker 6: of the particles in the universe at a micro level
Speaker 6: have gone wrong or been reorganized to benefit particular people
Speaker 6: in power and their selfishness, that can't be The main
Speaker 6: character cannot marry the girl because she has been destroyed,
Speaker 6: and the best thing that they can have together is
Speaker 6: a kind of fraternal bond, and the same thing obviously
Speaker 6: goes with Fauna's distorted fate by the end of the text.
Speaker 3: And I think that that again is something to your
Speaker 3: credit because and you see a lot of this in
Speaker 3: sort of dissident right wing circles, which is the desire
Speaker 3: to sort of publish your manifesto as a novel, to
Speaker 3: turn that into sort of an overly I guess you
Speaker 3: could say, an overly direct just description of here's what
Speaker 3: I think, where the characters become cardboard cutouts for ideologies.
Speaker 3: And obviously you know you and I have talked ed,
Speaker 3: but I could probably guess your politics from reading this book.
Speaker 3: It wouldn't be particularly difficult to find. But that was
Speaker 3: what I think was so affecting about the novel. Our
Speaker 3: main characters are fundamentally changed, or the worse, they do
Speaker 3: not get out of this scott free. It does not
Speaker 3: return to that kind of fantasy world of knights and
Speaker 3: shield maidens. I mean, you know, one great example is
Speaker 3: that Jack is maimed in a very dramatic way and
Speaker 3: physically damaged for the rest of his life. You know,
Speaker 3: he does not get out scott free. And similarly, you know,
Speaker 3: well we're being light on details, but there is something
Speaker 3: to be said for the fact that Agatha has been
Speaker 3: so deeply damaged, that this will not be a sort
Speaker 3: of ride into the sunset moment. You know, there is
Speaker 3: an escape, there is, you know, a cessation to this abuse,
Speaker 3: but it's not cheapened by you know, simply discarding it
Speaker 3: at the end to have the kind of Hollywood ending.
Speaker 3: And so I would commend you on that. And then,
Speaker 3: you know, if I could turn it into a question,
Speaker 3: I'd be curious to get your response.
Speaker 6: Hmm, okay, I'll see what I can pass all together.
Speaker 6: First off, just anecdotally, a friend of mine is a
Speaker 6: supply teacher, and he works in all of these different
Speaker 6: state schools. And besides the very good now VLR assisted
Speaker 6: Holocaust education that these kids get for about five to
Speaker 6: six weeks, five to six weeks, he tells me that
Speaker 6: they can't read. He tells me that there is only
Speaker 6: one student in his class who was Chinese that said
Speaker 6: he read the pleasure and all of the rest of
Speaker 6: them are doing the six seventh thing. And one could
Speaker 6: very easily imagine these kids, any of them that survive
Speaker 6: as dementia patients when they're seventy or eighty, just going.
Speaker 3: Think Devin, Think Devin.
Speaker 6: Forever animated by the means of twenty first century shit
Speaker 6: top and slot fests, and that's where a significant proportion
Speaker 6: of our population is going. It's like chapter two hundred
Speaker 6: of Nietzsche's Beyond Good and Evil, But rather than miscegenation
Speaker 6: leading either to you know, Frederick the second of Hohenstealfen
Speaker 6: or a sort of perfect human slave, it's the psychological
Speaker 6: distortion between the child that sees the god in the
Speaker 6: machine and is teaching himself, you know, how to program
Speaker 6: supercomputers on the one hand, and then the real entity,
Speaker 6: the entity that is created out of reels and is
Speaker 6: not human in the same way at all anymore, probably
Speaker 6: coincident with IQ distributions, but also just not also coincident
Speaker 6: with parental neglect, and ever increasingly, I'm thinking that's the
Speaker 6: future that we're headed toward. It is going to be
Speaker 6: this actual management of the population that the philosopher you've all,
Speaker 6: Noah Harari referred to as useless eaters using porn in
Speaker 6: video games and KFC. That's where we're headed, and there's
Speaker 6: no averting that in any way at all. Things are
Speaker 6: not going to get better. And in fact, this is
Speaker 6: one of the reasons that I think, because you mentioned
Speaker 6: pathways earlier, the Amelia figure is so interesting, the Amelia figure,
Speaker 6: who is this this sort of BPD art ho to
Speaker 6: use a categorization rather than an insult with purple hair,
Speaker 6: with a nose rearing, with a wart on her face.
Speaker 6: And this main character who is just a sort of
Speaker 6: ordinary middle class boy who gets involved in right wing politics.
Speaker 6: Why is this Amelia character the natural matchup now for
Speaker 6: this regular boy? Why isn't the tradwife his matchup?
Speaker 3: What if you could.
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Speaker 6: And there are various answers. One of them, again Dutton's,
Speaker 6: is that people on the right, on the real right,
Speaker 6: and people on the real left, they're both crazy. And
Speaker 6: although the left the real left are crazier than the
Speaker 6: real right, and so they belong to and there's this dynamism.
Speaker 6: The other thing is the tradwife has been revealed time
Speaker 6: and time again to be a mask for ulterior motives.
Speaker 6: I don't know, Sarah Stock, so I'm not going to
Speaker 6: go in for that sort of thing. But everyone knows
Speaker 6: the story and everyone knows the examples associated with this
Speaker 6: kind of thing. So the best case scenario, which is
Speaker 6: developing at least by the end of the novel between
Speaker 6: Jack and Agatha, is that, as I was saying, you
Speaker 6: have this fraternal relationship where, you know, maybe it's not exclusive,
Speaker 6: maybe you're not married, maybe you don't promise to stick
Speaker 6: with one another forever, but you're in this bizarrely plastic
Speaker 6: but also partly solidifying situationship. And given the fact that
Speaker 6: not only in Europe, but especially in my country, there's
Speaker 6: just no real reason to get married anymore because we
Speaker 6: have our own version of no fault divorce laws and
Speaker 6: church attendants is so low, and our new archbishop is
Speaker 6: an activist who spits in the face of everything that
Speaker 6: is part of our Anglican tradition. What are we meant
Speaker 6: to do apart from either give up romantic hopes, try
Speaker 6: and recreate the situation of patrician marriage where the Roman
Speaker 6: patriarch has total rights over the wife and child, or
Speaker 6: this sort of on again and off again situation that
Speaker 6: only generates bastards, or simply give up entirely. There is
Speaker 6: no grand restoration from that sort of thing, or environmental
Speaker 6: degradation or having plastic in our blood. And I can
Speaker 6: give you one example that just hammers home how bad
Speaker 6: the trajectory for this sort of thing really is, which
Speaker 6: is I went into a church in this town that
Speaker 6: I went to school in and it's actually Bottleford in
Speaker 6: the novel is kind of based on this town to
Speaker 6: a certain extent. And I went to this church that
Speaker 6: I hadn't been to before, and I opened the door.
Speaker 6: It's a beautiful Catholic church with these great, big stained
Speaker 6: glass windows in it, and suddenly I see hair dryers
Speaker 6: and I see sort of clear flat landing. It's been
Speaker 6: very polished, and there are no pews. And a woman
Speaker 6: comes up and says, can I help you? And I
Speaker 6: work out that the thing has been hollowed out and
Speaker 6: cannibalized and turned into a hairdressers. It's been turned it's
Speaker 6: been turned into a hairdressers with all of these big
Speaker 6: windows on. So even if remigration of an immense sort occurs,
Speaker 6: that problem is still occurring. The IQ decline problem is
Speaker 6: still occurring. Dont't thinks it's going to be sort of
Speaker 6: eighty five IQ average within a century. There is no
Speaker 6: slowing that entropy without a sort of miracle coming. To
Speaker 6: use a phrase from Martin Heidegger in the last essay
Speaker 6: that he published in Despiegel, only I got can say
Speaker 6: this now, although there is a god character in the
Speaker 6: text that we might want to get into to a
Speaker 6: certain extent.
Speaker 3: So before we get into that, just several things on
Speaker 3: what what you just said. There's an interesting alliance I've noticed,
Speaker 3: and this is a subculture that exists, I think more
Speaker 3: in my country than yours. But between this sort of
Speaker 3: environmentalist is not the right word, but sort of the
Speaker 3: descendants of hippie culture, right, people who are very concerned about,
Speaker 3: you know, the location of their food and the far right.
Speaker 3: You know, this is the origin of the the you know,
Speaker 3: the crunchy girlfriend, racist boyfriend style meme, which you know,
Speaker 3: in my case worked out and I've seen it work
Speaker 3: you know elsewhere. Just an aside. But I think that
Speaker 3: when when I hear you talking about, you know, the
Speaker 3: these churches that have sort of been turned into a
Speaker 3: best civic architecture and at worst commercial space. I mean,
Speaker 3: it reminds me of the American Northeast. You know that
Speaker 3: the land of the Puritans, formerly the most religious place
Speaker 3: in the nation, now the sort of high seat of
Speaker 3: you know, American imperial liberalism. But it's the same story.
Speaker 3: You know, you have a few particularly historically notable churches
Speaker 3: that are museums with a vestigial congregation of fifteen octagenarians
Speaker 3: at best. But you know, you go through places like
Speaker 3: you know, Martha's Vineyard, a very famous destination for the rich,
Speaker 3: but there are no churches left. I mean, they're buildings there,
Speaker 3: but it is a library, you know, it is an
Speaker 3: airbnb or a short term rental, and it's one of
Speaker 3: those things where it's like that to me, that culture
Speaker 3: seems dead. You know, that there's nothing there other than
Speaker 3: just sort of a you know, feeling that this is
Speaker 3: a building that should be kept around and even then,
Speaker 3: you know, we see how long it lasts. But I
Speaker 3: wanted to return to what you were saying about the
Speaker 3: sort of the god character. And then I want to
Speaker 3: put a pin in a discussion of the parental figures
Speaker 3: in this novel because it's sort of an interesting I
Speaker 3: should not be showing that pen to the camera and
Speaker 3: it has a highly specific information on it. But sorry,
Speaker 3: but I think that there's an interesting discussion there. But
Speaker 3: we'll come back to that after the question of the
Speaker 3: godlike character.
Speaker 6: Oh okay, So that the godlike character is one that
Speaker 6: I think can be introduced whilst dealing with a few
Speaker 6: of the other items pins, et cetera that you've put
Speaker 6: in the conversation and shouldn't shouldn't show because they contain
Speaker 6: deleterious personal information. So the god character is called Marine Emery.
Speaker 6: And the thing that is interesting about her is she
Speaker 6: is She's not a divinity per se. She's not like
Speaker 6: a sort of venus goddess or so on. She is
Speaker 6: a pagan spirit that to a certain extent or another
Speaker 6: lives alongside and within Saint Michael's church. And it's worth saying,
Speaker 6: as a friend of mine brought up, who's very knowledgeable
Speaker 6: after reading the book, that churches in England, but I
Speaker 6: think also just Anglo countries by and large that are
Speaker 6: called Saint Michael's are built in areas with a martial basis.
Speaker 6: So that church, I think it's the Carfax Tower in Oxford.
Speaker 6: It was erected in I think the ninth century, and
Speaker 6: it was erected on the site of a battle. And
Speaker 6: so you invoke Saint Michael as this protective archon or
Speaker 6: military spirit that enables you to succeed against all lads,
Speaker 6: I imagine, pushing back the vikings or something like that.
Speaker 6: I'll have to look more into that. The thing with
Speaker 6: her is okay, she's partly assimilated to the church, but
Speaker 6: she's also older, and she lives as an imminent extension
Speaker 6: of Anglo Saxon consciousness, meaning that all of these old
Speaker 6: people who are lying around and dying in chapter one
Speaker 6: faintly recall her, and even more faintly recall her elf
Speaker 6: like emissary, but eventually she's completely forgotten. And since we're
Speaker 6: talking about the vanishing and the emptying of churches, it's
Speaker 6: worth suggesting that churches really represent a transcendent form of
Speaker 6: ethics and religion. They represent one's potential unification with this
Speaker 6: broader metaphysical system. But if you get rid of that,
Speaker 6: what seems to happen, at least to my mind. Isn't
Speaker 6: that spirituality disappears. What happens is spirituality is imminentized. You
Speaker 6: can see this with the sort of political theology of
Speaker 6: therapy that most young women operate on nowadays, where you know,
Speaker 6: a friend of mine was accused of being of being
Speaker 6: what was it called a psychopathic narcissist by his ex
Speaker 6: girlfriend last night, and all of these vocabularies and little
Speaker 6: quacks and priests that you can go to so that
Speaker 6: you can repair past trauma and the breakdown of the
Speaker 6: mind and the internalization of these outward specters, as if
Speaker 6: you know, people had always felt this kind of way
Speaker 6: instead of just going to a congregation. And a side
Speaker 6: effect of this imminentization seems to be an authentic revival
Speaker 6: of paganism in so far as you think there is
Speaker 6: an ancestral spirit that is directly tied to me and
Speaker 6: that cares about me and has a personal investment with
Speaker 6: me that I can contact and I can interact with,
Speaker 6: and is doing things around the town. And on the
Speaker 6: night I'm regurgitating the line roughly of one of the
Speaker 6: first sexual results in the town. Call by this mass
Speaker 6: influx of predominantly cash Mimurpury immigrants. Marine memory is seen
Speaker 6: by the last two people in the town who believe
Speaker 6: her at the church with this enormous, famous red halo
Speaker 6: behind her head, and they can see traces of blood
Speaker 6: dripping down the thing. It's as if she is an
Speaker 6: imminent racial consciousness that has been sleeping for ages, almost
Speaker 6: beneath the security of the transcendent morality projected by the church.
Speaker 6: But now the church is empty, the church is gone.
Speaker 6: People don't really believe in Christ that much anymore. These
Speaker 6: genius Loki, these location bound spirits are coming back. And
Speaker 6: I obviously won't spoil the ending, but the fact of
Speaker 6: one character's being tormented and exploited means, as Robert Bly
Speaker 6: would say in his Eye in John, that the wound
Speaker 6: becomes a gateway to deny. The wound itself operates as
Speaker 6: a kind of summoning room for a form of God
Speaker 6: or Goddess that did not previously exist and was not required,
Speaker 6: but it's going to be activated. And to just sort
Speaker 6: of throw in some genetic evidence on top of this,
Speaker 6: someone like Richard Lynne would say that religion, even if
Speaker 6: it's a very new, potent religion that is constructed out
Speaker 6: of weird tiktoks like the Agatha thing. For example, there
Speaker 6: are many British universities that now have at Garth and societies.
Speaker 6: Stress increases religiosity inherently in order to meet the values
Speaker 6: of the day. And so I don't necessarily know if
Speaker 6: we get out of this with a Christian revival, and
Speaker 6: if it's a form of Christianity or be a bizarre
Speaker 6: and mutilated form of Christianity with big swords with crosses
Speaker 6: on them.
Speaker 3: One can hope one of the never mind, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to stay out live on air. But to return
Speaker 3: to the book, I try to be careful with you, Britt,
Speaker 3: because I realized in my case my chances of being
Speaker 3: arrested are relatively low. I would feel a little bit
Speaker 3: bad if I exposed any of you to that. But
Speaker 3: in all seriousness, one of the book sales, what's that?
Speaker 3: I say, yeah, honestly, and when you return out of
Speaker 3: out of prison after being beaten by an Albanian man,
Speaker 3: I'm sure you would, you know, enjoy the proceeds of
Speaker 3: the real.
Speaker 6: But sorry, I'd write a book in prison, and then
Speaker 6: I would run for prime minister so successfully that no
Speaker 6: one dispute me.
Speaker 3: Uh, I don't know if the pub putch has quite
Speaker 3: the same uh has quite the same kind of value
Speaker 3: as a beer hole. But you know, we'll see what
Speaker 3: you can do. But uh, there were in my mind
Speaker 3: sort of three primary parents. Jack's parents are split. We
Speaker 3: see his father and his mother. An interesting dynamic, of course,
Speaker 3: is that his mother is simultaneously seeing the degradation of
Speaker 3: her town while also being horribly addicted to the television.
Speaker 3: There's a particularly poignant moment where she goes to the
Speaker 3: local convenience store to try and buy mace, finds out
Speaker 3: that it is not available. But you know, nonetheless, she
Speaker 3: is sort of fed a drip fed, you know, information
Speaker 3: through television. And actually the role of television and the
Speaker 3: screen in this novel is sort of particularly interesting, So
Speaker 3: I'd be curious to get your thoughts on that. And
Speaker 3: then also, you know, while we're talking about other parents,
Speaker 3: you have you know, Jack's father, who is you know,
Speaker 3: this sort of sad alcoholic. But nonetheless, you know, we
Speaker 3: see a very interesting dynamic where his his ex wife
Speaker 3: has been hiding the fact that their son is being
Speaker 3: drugged from him, and of course is to kind of
Speaker 3: finish out the the kind of sorry as you can tell,
Speaker 3: then it's it's been a rough gold days. But you
Speaker 3: have you know, Agatha's mother, you kind of the who
Speaker 3: is it? A very different archetype to put it mildly.
Speaker 3: So first of all, I'd like to get your opinion
Speaker 3: on the screen. You know, Jack has a series of
Speaker 3: very dramatic visions where we see this as sort of
Speaker 3: a chimera. To get your thoughts on that, and then
Speaker 3: also his relationship with his own mother.
Speaker 6: Okay, I'll start with the screen thing. An alternative title
Speaker 6: for the thing before I came up with Bothleford's Gone,
Speaker 6: which refers to this particular town and settlement that is
Speaker 6: mentioned in the Doomsday Book ten sixty six, now Doomsday
Speaker 6: Book which no longer exists, and this phrase that I've
Speaker 6: heard not only from my own relatives, but from one
Speaker 6: of more Goth's essays about the Grooming Gangs that is
Speaker 6: called Arml Cultural Reactor five, which compares the Breman gangs
Speaker 6: with Chernobyl. It's a phrase that people utter when they're
Speaker 6: trying to arrive at a direct description of the political
Speaker 6: scenarios before them and the demographic scenarios in particular. But
Speaker 6: then this internal censorship mechanism takes over. Someone will say, oh,
Speaker 6: the West End's gone, Birmingham's gone, that my whole street
Speaker 6: in Manchester it's gone now. And then you'll say what
Speaker 6: does that mean? And they will not have the language
Speaker 6: to get back to you on that. They will just
Speaker 6: short circuit. And this is why, really the main villain
Speaker 6: in the thing is not a human being. It is
Speaker 6: this creature that I refer to as the Khmeira, and
Speaker 6: it's this entity that I've based off of this very
Speaker 6: interesting Etruscan sculpture that I encountered on the Internet once,
Speaker 6: and also kind of on the character of the entertainment
Speaker 6: in David foster w us infinite jest. There's a difference
Speaker 6: between the screen of the computer or the screen of
Speaker 6: the phone or the screen as you're you know, looking
Speaker 6: at Thomas seven seven seven's posts on nineties usenet and
Speaker 6: the television. The television in particular is demonic because it
Speaker 6: is an information pipe that generations who are used to
Speaker 6: the idea that it is completely you know, it's completely
Speaker 6: beyond criticism, are just taken by they're completely absorbed by
Speaker 6: it and they cannot be broken out of it. Whereas
Speaker 6: you could see the smartphone, social media and so on,
Speaker 6: especially post Jack Dorsey as the television being broken up
Speaker 6: into all of these different competitive screens, which means there
Speaker 6: is far more narrative creative destruction. There is far more
Speaker 6: individuality and the ability to get a sort of general
Speaker 6: idea of what's actually happening before you. So it is
Speaker 6: because of the power projection of the television and broadly
Speaker 6: the bourgeois class that controls it, to the upper elite
Speaker 6: bourgeois class that is used like an alien tractor beam
Speaker 6: to make things invisible in the town. Oh well, I
Speaker 6: don't want to point that out. That would make me
Speaker 6: like Enoch Powell. That's a sentiment that Jack's mother has,
Speaker 6: and it's a sentiment that I've encountered, I don't know,
Speaker 6: pretty much every other day of my life with people
Speaker 6: who are above a certain age, usually older than millennials,
Speaker 6: and they are permanently fucked by this thing. They are
Speaker 6: never going to be fixed in these terms, and it
Speaker 6: is it is something that makes people evil. William Darrylnple,
Speaker 6: when he was talking about some aspects of the Soviet Union,
Speaker 6: mentioned that mentioned that they almost want you to buy
Speaker 6: into the ideology as such so that the excesses are
Speaker 6: things that you'll tolerate. Or maybe your village tax man
Speaker 6: has been gotten rid of and you're very happy because
Speaker 6: you no longer have to sacrifice fifty percent of your
Speaker 6: vegetable patch in order to appease him. The same thing
Speaker 6: is true with all of the endless hypnotic entertainments of
Speaker 6: the screen, or the kimera who has kind of a
Speaker 6: mind of its own. I used the phrase genius loci
Speaker 6: earlier to describe a spirit that is a real spirit
Speaker 6: that lives within the English and is waiting to be
Speaker 6: summoned up marine emory. You could describe, using sort of
Speaker 6: modern esoteric terminology, the Khmera as an eggregore. It is
Speaker 6: a being that wouldn't exist on its own, but it's
Speaker 6: sort of technologically superimposed over whole hills and vales of
Speaker 6: the country, and done so on an international basis. There
Speaker 6: was a conversation tangentially related to this that I had
Speaker 6: with someone who was literally called tag Beer meaning I
Speaker 6: think holy war, and he was surprised how much I
Speaker 6: knew about your party in Palestine and so on. But
Speaker 6: his entire legal PhD is on getting reparations from the Europeans,
Speaker 6: and the way that he described it was he wanted
Speaker 6: to take the de Narti vacation program that was imposed
Speaker 6: by the American Empire and the Soviets in the aftermath
Speaker 6: of the Second World War in order to just break
Speaker 6: the people by showing them this footage, this edited footage,
Speaker 6: again and again and again and drilling down into them
Speaker 6: like that. And he called this mind rape. He said
Speaker 6: he wanted to do that to the British and there
Speaker 6: was evidence that it worked, and if you had to
Speaker 6: get rid of social media and get rid of computer
Speaker 6: screens in order to do that, that would be great.
Speaker 6: And I asked him if he had any sort of
Speaker 6: particular hang ups with the British people, and he said, no,
Speaker 6: I just want to do what's right. That is what
Speaker 6: the Khmera is. The camera is, in effect, the technological
Speaker 6: mind fuckery that occurs before you know, your average sort
Speaker 6: of Kistani gruma named Mohammad Kara or something, it's a
Speaker 6: real name, gains this invisibility cloak over him and then
Speaker 6: goes and perpetuates some of the worst crimes we've seen
Speaker 6: in this country since before the medieval period. As for
Speaker 6: the parents, I think I'll get started on Agatha's mother,
Speaker 6: because she's the one that I think has haunted me
Speaker 6: the most since I produced her. I don't really consider
Speaker 6: this spoiler. She's an only fans for she does these
Speaker 6: only fans videos, and this has a connection with the gang,
Speaker 6: and she's leaning into this sort of thing because she's
Speaker 6: grieving the fact that her husband was murdered by this
Speaker 6: Albanian and her father's a former policeman. Now, not only if
Speaker 6: one consults one's working class friends who live in similar
Speaker 6: situations to these, and there are hundreds of thousands who do,
Speaker 6: but if you look at the Small Catechism of Martin
Speaker 6: Luther and you look at how important the figure of
Speaker 6: the patriarch in the family is treated at He's treated
Speaker 6: as the priest of the family who's responsible for all
Speaker 6: of these individuals, and also the history of Lutheranism within
Speaker 6: particular zones of Germany. What you work out is, in
Speaker 6: functioning working class families and kinship networks, there is almost
Speaker 6: always one big man who is the lynchpin of the
Speaker 6: whole operation, and as soon as he's gone, as was
Speaker 6: the case in my friend Tom's situation, everything collapses. Everything
Speaker 6: becomes immediate gratification, how do I fulfill my passions? How
Speaker 6: do I get stimulus checks from the government. And that's
Speaker 6: precisely what happens with Agatha and her grieving mother, who
Speaker 6: already mean that they're not upper middle class girls, either
Speaker 6: her or her mother. They already have these tendencies toward
Speaker 6: self destruction since their class was basically cut up during
Speaker 6: the Thatcher era and a bit before. So what they're
Speaker 6: doing is like a more extreme, multiculturalized version of the
Speaker 6: tendencies they were having before, losing the father in the family,
Speaker 6: losing the household. And I regard this to a certain
Speaker 6: extent sympathetically, and to a certain extent not. There is
Speaker 6: this very interesting sketch by Hogarth which is called a
Speaker 6: whores Progress, which Jane Austen actually references in a few
Speaker 6: of her letters, and it shows this great, big woman
Speaker 6: who is giving this poor girl all this beer in
Speaker 6: order to get addicted to alcohol and then she can
Speaker 6: prostitute this poor girl. App there are these women who
Speaker 6: were involved in Rotherhain, and they were white English women
Speaker 6: who looked exactly like the woman giving the beer, the
Speaker 6: big old woman doing that, and they loved the feeling
Speaker 6: of power of having these young girls and their sexuality
Speaker 6: under their command, and they were expected, one of them
Speaker 6: said before she was arrested, to earn their keep. So
Speaker 6: it's not just that the grim In gangs are awful
Speaker 6: in their own right. They play on the worst aspects
Speaker 6: of the British population that are latently narcissistic and psychopathic anyway,
Speaker 6: and that's exactly what happens with missus Alice Darger, who
Speaker 6: is lost in her own world, and hence the evocation
Speaker 6: of Lewis Carroll. As for Jack's father and mother, the
Speaker 6: mother's a sort of posh Tory type who wants to
Speaker 6: do the good thing, even though she has the right instincts.
Speaker 6: You mentioned Mace. Mace's is banned in this country now,
Speaker 6: at least, so unable to defend herself, horrified by what's happening.
Speaker 6: The father is this very pretentious liberal type who likes
Speaker 6: reading Philip Larkin, and I think that's basically then.
Speaker 3: The moment with Mace is an interesting one. Are you
Speaker 3: familiar with Johan Kers, Yes, i am.
Speaker 7: I met him.
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm jealous. He's a very talented writer. But in
Speaker 3: one of the interviews he did promoting his book, which
Speaker 3: is quite good. I think he've now referenced it twice
Speaker 3: in one week, so you should pick it up if
Speaker 3: you're interested. But he was speaking about a very dramatic
Speaker 3: incident when he was still living in England, where in
Speaker 3: a very well to do historic neighborhood, there was a
Speaker 3: you know, an afghanman sleeping on his doorstep. He asks
Speaker 3: him to leave so that his wife and children can
Speaker 3: go about their business. This devolves into, you know, sort
Speaker 3: of a shoving match, and eventually, you know, the men
Speaker 3: are scared off. And as the solution or as the
Speaker 3: the situation subsides, he sees this older man sort of
Speaker 3: peering out around a corner and he says, oh, I
Speaker 3: would have had your back, and he reaches into his
Speaker 3: coat and he grabs a pressurized can of spray paint,
Speaker 3: you know, to mark the offender so that when you know,
Speaker 3: had things gone differently, if Johan was beheaded, at least
Speaker 3: the police would have been able to identify the man
Speaker 3: because he had yellow spray paint on his jacket. And
Speaker 3: this is something that you know, who less sympathetic Americans
Speaker 3: will use as in jokes, right, They'll they'll make fun
Speaker 3: of you know, you Brits and you know, for a
Speaker 3: certain level you can sort of understand why, but very fundamentally,
Speaker 3: like this is an egregious wrong done to you and
Speaker 3: your people. The idea that even the most passive form
Speaker 3: of self defense like an irritant, you know, which I mean,
Speaker 3: at someone who's been exposed to it. It's certainly not pleasant,
Speaker 3: but it is entirely survivable. We make every soldier in
Speaker 3: this country experience it and they don't all die. You know,
Speaker 3: it's not blasting them with a blunderbuss or something taken
Speaker 3: off the table. I mean, it's completely totally absurd. Obviously
Speaker 3: it's not your fault. Clearly, you know, your politicians don't
Speaker 3: listen to you know, what what you people want, but
Speaker 3: it does sort of you know, that was a very
Speaker 3: poignant example both from you know, Johan's experience and also
Speaker 3: in the novel because additionally, and I don't remember the
Speaker 3: you know, the ethnicity of the the shopkeeper, but that
Speaker 3: is another dynamic throughout the book where we see Jack
Speaker 3: continually going to stores, you know, going to the kind
Speaker 3: of third places, you know, where you would get you know,
Speaker 3: a bottle of water, where you would buy pepper spray,
Speaker 3: in another country, and they're always staffed by hostile and
Speaker 3: resentful ethnic minorities. There's a scene where h Jack has
Speaker 3: been been drinking and he goes in for a bottle,
Speaker 3: gets overcharged, pays the white tax, goes in again, buys
Speaker 3: another one at a discounted rate. And that's a very
Speaker 3: minor moment, you know, it's on a pivotal turning point,
Speaker 3: but it does show I think something, you know, very
Speaker 3: dramatic that even those obviously that direct way to protect
Speaker 3: yourself is off the board, but also these very minor
Speaker 3: interactions you know, shop as you know, buying a bottle
Speaker 3: of water when you're hungover, or you know, going to
Speaker 3: you know, provide groceries have been turned into effectively hostile
Speaker 3: ethnic shakedowns.
Speaker 6: On this, I think it's worth talking a bit about
Speaker 6: the self defense thing, because most Americans don't realize that
Speaker 6: we had guns until the dun Blaine massacre. And then
Speaker 6: because we have a sovereign parliament, which is generally a
Speaker 6: good thing in terms of you know, trying to recover
Speaker 6: the country and so far as it can be recovered,
Speaker 6: they just decided to get rid of all the guns,
Speaker 6: and that that was universally accepted at the time because
Speaker 6: of how bad this guy going in and killing all
Speaker 6: of these children in I think a preschool happened to
Speaker 6: be in a nursery. Beyond that, self defense is directly
Speaker 6: discouraged from the top down via the education system. I
Speaker 6: used to get in lots of fights at school, and
Speaker 6: every time that I fought back, because I was not
Speaker 6: regarded as an endemically messed up problem child, I got
Speaker 6: worse punishments than the kids. For instance, there was one
Speaker 6: who was sent to our school from another school because
Speaker 6: I went to a sort of poor grammar school, and
Speaker 6: we were meant to reform him. He brought knives to
Speaker 6: his other schools frequently, and then he would fall asleep
Speaker 6: at the front of our history classes. And yet we
Speaker 6: got it when we got in a scuffle. I was
Speaker 6: meant to take the blame for all of these things.
Speaker 6: You are not allowed to defend yourself whatsoever. And there
Speaker 6: is legal case after legal case of people entering British
Speaker 6: people's property and then British people trying to defend themselves.
Speaker 6: For instance, there's one guy in the woods who was
Speaker 6: a bit of a crazy bloke who had all these
Speaker 6: bear traps and so on guys broke in there, he
Speaker 6: shot them and then he was thrown in prison. That's
Speaker 6: the basis for the attitude that you see disseminated among
Speaker 6: the British by and you know inclusively the English, the Scottish,
Speaker 6: the Wealth and the Northern Irish. Unless you're someone who
Speaker 6: has already been to prison and is consequently not afraid
Speaker 6: of this sort of thing, because you've already been humiliated,
Speaker 6: you've been sort of painted badly with the brush of
Speaker 6: being on the wrong side of the law, you are
Speaker 6: going to be terrified about this kind of thing. And
Speaker 6: given how sensitive the middle class or bourgeoisie in our
Speaker 6: country is to being associated with the likes of Tommy
Speaker 6: Robinson or anyone like that, you know, people that they're
Speaker 6: trying to escape because they're actually biologically connected to those individuals,
Speaker 6: nothing is going to happen. The other part of this
Speaker 6: that is historically worth addressing is the National Front, mainly
Speaker 6: in the seventies and eighties, became such a big four
Speaker 6: in British politics, or at least a big enough force
Speaker 6: that the McPherson report, I believe it was decided that
Speaker 6: they had to be quashed and ruined. This is a
Speaker 6: party that was established by GK. Chesterton's cousin called AK Chesterton.
Speaker 6: A wonderful nickname to him would be Ak forty seven
Speaker 6: Chesterton that I don't think he heard it. What the
Speaker 6: crushing of these movements and the implementation of Frank Soscus's
Speaker 6: free speech laws materially did in the country is they
Speaker 6: broke up the system of antibodies that existed within the
Speaker 6: working class. They just humiliated those people. They trod all
Speaker 6: over them. They prevented them from organizing under ethnic banners,
Speaker 6: having uniforms, or anything along those lines. And because of
Speaker 6: on the one hand, that and the fact of our
Speaker 6: self defense laws, and also the class dynamics that are
Speaker 6: so present here that aren't present in the United States.
Speaker 6: When you see someone of a different ethnicity, who is
Speaker 6: who has protected characteristics, as they say, attack someone indigenous,
Speaker 6: there is a very high chance the average individual is
Speaker 6: just going to walk away, walk away or ask if
Speaker 6: everyone's okay, rather than getting involved. I mean, it angers
Speaker 6: me every time I see something like this, because I
Speaker 6: know I'm going to see it more.
Speaker 3: And it's it's one of the most it's one of
Speaker 3: the most sinister things because each one of these these trends,
Speaker 3: you know, whether it is the pacification through you know,
Speaker 3: pourn and weed in video games, or the direct chemical pacification,
Speaker 3: the sort of therapeutic conflict resolution, you know, that system
Speaker 3: of effectively you know, talking everything out, maintaining a very
Speaker 3: non threatening posture, and then obviously with self defense as well.
Speaker 3: As it is it is punishing bridge and rewarding passivity.
Speaker 3: That is the trait being selected for. And you see
Speaker 3: this in you know, the academic world, right that you
Speaker 3: were effectively best served by going with the program as
Speaker 3: much as you possibly can. You know, if you can
Speaker 3: publish a good bit that's helpful, but don't say anything
Speaker 3: controversial in the slightest and to your sort of returning
Speaker 3: to you know, the kind of pairing of Fauna and Jack.
Speaker 3: It is sort of this interesting choice that must be
Speaker 3: made effectively. Will you accept the programming or will you
Speaker 3: accept that you are resigning from polite society, that you
Speaker 3: will no longer receive the benefit of being aligned with
Speaker 3: the system. And I think that this was a more
Speaker 3: prominent conversation in the US during COVID A word I
Speaker 3: probably shouldn't have said on YouTube, but go with it anyway.
Speaker 3: For instance, I have a very distinct memory of helping
Speaker 3: one of my friends move and my roommate at the time,
Speaker 3: long term friend. We were helping him, you know, up
Speaker 3: on the roof, patching something, both of us at you know,
Speaker 3: good universities, pursuing our degrees. And it was right when
Speaker 3: you know the message that Biden said you weren't allowed
Speaker 3: to get a job at a company of above a
Speaker 3: certain size without a medical treatment, and had a very
Speaker 3: frank conversation that like are we roofers now? Like is
Speaker 3: this our life? Because you know that seemingly was the position,
Speaker 3: and as that has retreated from memory, I think many
Speaker 3: people have forgotten that effectively, there is no third option.
Speaker 3: You cannot both receive praise from the machine and work
Speaker 3: to oppose it. It's pretty basic. And obviously, as you said,
Speaker 3: class dynamics are different between my country and uh they're
Speaker 3: much more implicit here, They're much less kind of It's
Speaker 3: messier for any number of reasons. Demographic reasons is a
Speaker 3: large part of that too. But when I interact with
Speaker 3: middle class British people, by and large, I see people
Speaker 3: who are completely and totally controlled by social status, and
Speaker 3: particularly controlled by social status as regards the gamut right,
Speaker 3: the evil racist rule, or the evil racist working class,
Speaker 3: the Chuds, as we would say, here are the rednecks.
Speaker 3: And it's a it's very strikingly expressed in your book, Edward.
Speaker 6: We think about how I can deal with that. I
Speaker 6: might I might have mentioned this last time, but it
Speaker 6: is quite simply amazing. And one can see this in
Speaker 6: some of Adam Curtis's documentaries on the period, which are
Speaker 6: all very good. How much the experience of upper middle
Speaker 6: class people in the seventies and eighties trying to act
Speaker 6: for the benefit of working class people and going out
Speaker 6: with their little leaflets and forms before being confronted with
Speaker 6: the reality of Bez the Gammon shook them. It completely
Speaker 6: traumatized them, and it made them want to have a
Speaker 6: global proletariat as opposed to a local proletariat. They could
Speaker 6: still fulfill their dreams of, you know, post Christian humanism
Speaker 6: in the tradition of William Wilberforce, as I mentioned before,
Speaker 6: or you have to you don't actually have to fix
Speaker 6: your soul. What you have to do is do political things.
Speaker 6: Now that is a bit unfair on Wilberforce, but there
Speaker 6: are certain of his fans that took that message from him. Yeah,
Speaker 6: they feel that they have this no bless so believe
Speaker 6: they have this role that is necessary to make them
Speaker 6: navigate society in the right direction. And yet as soon
Speaker 6: as they see the elements that they're expected to handle directly,
Speaker 6: they do what Yavin would call the Missus Jellybee thing
Speaker 6: and they start giving more money to people in the
Speaker 6: East Indies than the starving children that directly surround them
Speaker 6: in their own streets. In terms of how this can
Speaker 6: be counteracted, I don't think it's something that the English
Speaker 6: can do on their own. And I think it is
Speaker 6: very notable that a lot of the people that I
Speaker 6: know in Restore Britain are either Catholic converts or they're
Speaker 6: partly Scottish or something, And there are lots of these
Speaker 6: figures within British sort of fringe politics who are not
Speaker 6: completely British. Nima Pavini is a good one. I mentioned
Speaker 6: him earlier. Half Iranian. There is a radicalism that insists
Speaker 6: upon itself within the British context that is not purely English.
Speaker 6: Much in the same way that if you look at
Speaker 6: the example of Finland, you know, highest average IQ in Europe.
Speaker 6: I think it's one hundred and seven. Yet all of
Speaker 6: their elites, or most of their elites, they're disproportionately Swedish.
Speaker 6: They're Swedish fins. And this is because despite the IQ thing,
Speaker 6: Finn sorry of Swedes, tend to have a higher general
Speaker 6: factor of personality, so they're going to be more charming,
Speaker 6: They're going to be more charismatic in one way or another.
Speaker 6: So I don't really think these dynamics play out with
Speaker 6: the English helping and fixing themselves. I think there are
Speaker 6: some additional things. Obviously, I'm half Scottish, so I'm also
Speaker 6: you know, tooting my own horn very quietly as I
Speaker 6: do this. But to this end, I think it's fascinating
Speaker 6: that Blair's cabinet when it came in and was so revolutionary,
Speaker 6: it was disproportionately Scottish. It was not English. And there
Speaker 6: is a radicalism in the Scottish character that needs to
Speaker 6: be adhered to and respected to a certain extent, meaning
Speaker 6: that even if you know you're in a very nice
Speaker 6: area of Edinburgh and Scotland is so nice in comparison
Speaker 6: with England, especially Edinburgh, you will find crazies. You will
Speaker 6: find organic gin who is this nutty homeless man who
Speaker 6: is a former heir of this fortune, asking you if
Speaker 6: you want to see his organic moves before doing some
Speaker 6: of the most explicive dancing you'll ever perceive. And another
Speaker 6: one called the Edinburgh Barbarian, who is this jacked ruder,
Speaker 6: also from a wealthy family, who just records himself on
Speaker 6: a shitty little TikTok iPhone whilst posing and frightening girls
Speaker 6: to talk about the power of humanity. All of these
Speaker 6: forces can be wielded in a positive direction. But I
Speaker 6: don't think the middle class English are going to be
Speaker 6: able to help themselves. They are going to vote Libden
Speaker 6: with their Davy and maybe they're dissatisfied. Transgendered children will
Speaker 6: sidle in with the Greens. And Zack Polanski who has
Speaker 6: a skull that looks like it could consume infants like Harribo.
Speaker 3: Is you Scottish Edward?
Speaker 6: I don't think he is. I think his ancestor might
Speaker 6: be that wonderful filmmaker Roman who people don't like for
Speaker 6: some reason.
Speaker 3: Well, in all seriousness, this book is quite good. I
Speaker 3: recommend you all pick up a copy of it. I'll
Speaker 3: put the correct links and the description. I only put
Speaker 3: the UK Store last time. So I bought this book
Speaker 3: from England. Took quite a long time to get here,
Speaker 3: but turns out you can get it on regular American
Speaker 3: websites and it won't take weeks to get here. Ed.
Speaker 3: Other than that, where can people find you?
Speaker 6: I'm at Anglican Gonzo on Twitter. You can find the
Speaker 6: book I Guess on old Speak and Amazon. In terms
Speaker 6: of where my location is, I hope I haven't made
Speaker 6: it too evident and if anyone wants to contact me,
Speaker 6: I will be in the ether.
Speaker 3: Fair enough. As far as my stuff, Jay Burdon Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
Speaker 3: anywhere you listen to podcasts, this is what I do.
Speaker 3: I'm a full time podcaster. If you want to support me,
Speaker 3: you can do so at Patreon, Substack, or gumbro. Get
Speaker 3: the episodes early with no ads. It's probably worth it.
Speaker 3: I know the ads are irritating, although apparently cottage Cheese,
Speaker 3: no brand, just the concept of cottage cheese is promoting
Speaker 3: my podcast, so you know, I appreciate those ads, probably
Speaker 3: better than casinos and pharmaceuticals. In addition, you can check
Speaker 3: out our sponsor, Pox and Soun's Coffee. They sent me
Speaker 3: a bunch of coffee it's pretty good. Check it out.
Speaker 3: If you use my name, Jay Burden, you get I believe,
Speaker 3: fifteen percent off just not half bad, ed. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Man and everyone at home, keep your head up. I
Speaker 3: can't last forever.
Speaker 7: Good night.
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