WEBVTT 1 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:20.120 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Transfigured Life. We have a 2 00:00:20.239 --> 00:00:23.600 special guest here in the building. I'm always here rocking 3 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:27.199 with Father Jonathan. And as you guys can see, here 4 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:32.320 we have the comedian, the apologist, the gifted one here, 5 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:34.159 Jay Dyer. 6 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:35.640 Give it up for Jay Dyer. 7 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.799 How you doing, Jay, I'm doing great, man. Thanks for 8 00:00:38.840 --> 00:00:40.759 having me here. I'm glad to be here. It's honored 9 00:00:40.759 --> 00:00:42.159 to talk to you guys. Appreciate it. 10 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:44.920 Yeah, our pleasure and our honor. Thank you very much. 11 00:00:46.039 --> 00:00:46.240 Jay. 12 00:00:46.280 --> 00:00:47.799 We're going to kind of get right into it, and 13 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:53.960 I want to begin by by by asking you a question. Undoubtedly, 14 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:56.880 if you've been watching YouTube for a while, and I 15 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:59.920 think you have, and if you've been watching Orthodox apology 16 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:02.840 I think you have, can't fail to notice that there's 17 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:06.920 been an abundance of podcasts and videos out there now 18 00:01:06.959 --> 00:01:11.760 by Protestants and especially Reform Protestants, Evangelicals, Baptists that are 19 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:14.680 attacking the Orthodox faith and church. You know, I recently 20 00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:18.159 heard some Presbyterian church out west even deny that we 21 00:01:18.359 --> 00:01:21.959 the Orthodox, have Apostolic succession. And so I'm sure you've 22 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.000 heard some of these, But what do you make of 23 00:01:24.079 --> 00:01:27.439 what do you think of that, we're seeing more and 24 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:28.439 more of them now. 25 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:31.519 I think one reason that we're seeing that is just 26 00:01:31.599 --> 00:01:34.519 everybody's got a podcast now. My wife and I were 27 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:37.040 joking about this, like every like every people's grandmothers are 28 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:40.439 going to start having podcasts soon ago. Literally everybody has 29 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.400 a podcast, and I think every pastor now has a podcast. 30 00:01:43.400 --> 00:01:44.079 So that's part of it. 31 00:01:44.120 --> 00:01:48.120 But I also think that there's a realization that there's 32 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:51.359 a lot of problems in the religious world, especially if 33 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:54.879 you come from a Protestant or Roman Catholic background. 34 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:56.120 I mean, that's not to say there's no. 35 00:01:56.439 --> 00:01:59.359 Problems in the Orthodox world, but every group kind of 36 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:01.319 has its own youth unique problems, and so I think 37 00:02:01.359 --> 00:02:04.799 that a lot of people are sensing that questions are 38 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:07.200 being asked that are very difficult. A lot of times 39 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.120 Protestant pastors might not have the answers to these kinds 40 00:02:10.120 --> 00:02:14.759 of questions, and so they're going online, they're seeking out answers, 41 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.680 and they're feeling the need to have to address why 42 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:21.919 people are converting. A lot of people are converting out 43 00:02:21.919 --> 00:02:24.840 of Protestantism, some to run Catholicism. But I think actually 44 00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:27.439 in the last three or four years, more to Orthodoxy. 45 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:30.199 So I think there's a need to try to explain this, 46 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:33.879 to say, hey, don't leave. You know, they've got problems too, 47 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:37.039 and Protestanism can be defended. I don't think ultimately that 48 00:02:37.080 --> 00:02:39.120 it can, but I think that's the reason is that 49 00:02:39.520 --> 00:02:44.000 a lot of people are looking for more than what 50 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:47.280 they're getting at Protestant churches. So they're seeing a lot 51 00:02:47.319 --> 00:02:50.319 of you know, rainbow flags going up at Protestant churches, 52 00:02:50.439 --> 00:02:53.080 and that's making a lot of people, you know, dissatisfy. 53 00:02:53.280 --> 00:02:55.639 This is not what you know historic Christianity is. So 54 00:02:55.680 --> 00:02:56.319 this is on the one. 55 00:02:56.240 --> 00:03:01.800 Hand of search for authentic historic Christianity, there's a search 56 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:04.400 for wanting to be you know, consistent with what the 57 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:07.039 Bible actually teaches in terms of morals and that kind 58 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:10.120 of stuff. People are craving that they don't want this, uh, 59 00:03:10.759 --> 00:03:15.120 water down stuff. And even even in the conservative Protestant world, 60 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.240 I think there's a lot of unanswered questions when it 61 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:23.120 comes to the challenges that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are presenting, 62 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:25.759 but more so Orthodoxy, because I think a lot of 63 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:29.280 people are seeing, you know, really systematic level problems in 64 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:33.120 the Roman Catholic world that perhaps Orthodoxy might have the answer. 65 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:37.719 To that's good, Luthor. Both you and Jay came out 66 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:40.759 of that Milio. If you and I know you probably 67 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:43.800 have different issues that you could point to. But Jay, 68 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:46.120 what do you think are the man? What do you 69 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:48.479 think are the two or three biggest issues that are 70 00:03:48.840 --> 00:03:49.840 bringing people over? 71 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:53.280 Yeah, you got a lot of a lot of people 72 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:57.240 coming out of the you know, the Protestant world. 73 00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:59.080 So what do you think is that that reason? 74 00:04:00.800 --> 00:04:03.360 Probably the biggest let me see, the biggest two issues 75 00:04:03.400 --> 00:04:07.439 in the Protestant world would be and I don't know 76 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:10.039 if there are in any specific order, just the ones 77 00:04:10.280 --> 00:04:12.520 that come to mind that I hear the most are 78 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.560 questions like, well, you know, solar scriptura, which is really 79 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:19.800 the essence of classical Protestantism. And it really doesn't matter 80 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:21.959 what form you want to give to solar scriptura. 81 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:23.800 I know that there's different. 82 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:27.240 Versions of a different apologists that give different levels of 83 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:28.279 a different. 84 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:31.319 Protestant apologists will recognize. 85 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:34.759 Some kind of place for tradition, perhaps maybe even all 86 00:04:34.800 --> 00:04:37.759 the way up to High Church Anglicans can concede maybe 87 00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:41.680 the most reverence for traditions supposedly, but I think there's 88 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:48.000 still a recognition that there's big heaping questions of ahistoricity. Right, 89 00:04:48.000 --> 00:04:51.560 the Protestant position is not historical, especially when we come 90 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:53.879 to the formation of the Canon, when it comes to 91 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:56.399 how the Bible came to be, when it comes to 92 00:04:57.120 --> 00:05:01.600 the actual practice of the church in first six seventh century, 93 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.560 is the way that it operated with liturgy or you know, 94 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.560 teaching profession of the faith in the liturgy and not 95 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:11.600 so much people having to go and read the Bible 96 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:12.120 on their own. 97 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:12.839 To figure it all out. 98 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:15.079 When when people start to realize that, when they see 99 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:18.360 what's in the ecumenical councils and the canons and even 100 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:23.759 the earliest councils you know, prior to Iicea and Caira, Gangra, 101 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:26.519 you know, you see these so called Catholic and I 102 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:28.920 say that is in the sense of orthodox Catholic elements. 103 00:05:29.240 --> 00:05:31.240 People are seeing that and realizing that, you know, this 104 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.079 is this, this isn't Protestantism. So I think that's probably 105 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:37.279 the biggest And then number two might be. 106 00:05:39.120 --> 00:05:43.120 Questions that they have about. 107 00:05:42.199 --> 00:05:45.279 The morals changing in the in the world of Protestanism, 108 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.199 and again that that doesn't necessarily go for the conservative 109 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:51.680 Protestant evangelical groups. But I think in the Protestant world, 110 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:54.439 like the I mean, I don't know the numbers per se, 111 00:05:54.480 --> 00:05:58.079 but most, you know, all the mainline Protestant nominations in 112 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:00.519 the US they pretty much liberal in the. 113 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:02.680 Nineteen twenties and thirties. Uh. 114 00:06:02.759 --> 00:06:05.360 And by that I mean not just you know, caving 115 00:06:05.399 --> 00:06:09.839 into higher critical textual scholarship, but also morals. They began 116 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:13.639 to cave on moral questions and issues. And so I 117 00:06:13.680 --> 00:06:16.360 think that those are probably the two biggest ones, you know, 118 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:18.720 the history of the church, the Bible, soul, scriptura. 119 00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:20.839 And then I think there's other issues too. 120 00:06:20.800 --> 00:06:24.839 Like this debate world you know that pops up on 121 00:06:25.480 --> 00:06:28.120 in the internet. You know, Yeah, there's a lot there's 122 00:06:28.160 --> 00:06:32.079 a lot of you know, great chats and discussions and 123 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:35.279 debates going on that. H that's probably a big factor 124 00:06:35.319 --> 00:06:35.720 as well. 125 00:06:37.160 --> 00:06:40.600 Wow, I agree, Yeah, yeah, there's definitely definitely a bigger 126 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:41.879 debate will happen out there. 127 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:42.680 I see that. 128 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:46.680 Well, yeah, real quick, I noticed. I don't even know 129 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:47.920 this until a few days ago. 130 00:06:48.639 --> 00:06:49.040 Uh. 131 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:50.360 And obviously I'm not I'm not a. 132 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:53.199 Huge fan of TikTok because it's you know, obviously it's 133 00:06:53.199 --> 00:06:56.600 a Chinese sort of surveillance app. But I am on 134 00:06:56.680 --> 00:06:59.199 there just to put out clips and stuff. And I 135 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:02.000 didn't realize that I could go live on there until 136 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:03.439 fairly recently, because you've got to. 137 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:05.720 Hit a certain tier of subscribers or something. 138 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:08.399 But I went live on TikTok and turns out there's 139 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.279 this giant world over there that's different from you know, 140 00:07:12.360 --> 00:07:15.920 YouTube and these other places. There's there's just masses of 141 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:21.519 Protestants over there. Calviunists are arguing and going crazy. Muslims 142 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:23.839 are going crazy on TikTok. So I've kind of stepped 143 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:24.959 into that whole other. 144 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:29.160 Mess of getting on TikTok. 145 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:33.120 And but that's a whole nother, you know field for potential, 146 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.120 you know, new audiences, and TikTok tends to be a 147 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:39.319 lot of twenty five are really young people over there 148 00:07:39.360 --> 00:07:39.759 as well. 149 00:07:40.319 --> 00:07:42.720 Yeah, kids are always dancing on TikTok and stuff like that. 150 00:07:42.800 --> 00:07:44.879 Now, but now there's a whole debate world because they 151 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.199 have live streams, so you can live stream for you know, 152 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:49.240 long long form on TikTok. 153 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:51.040 Now, so there's always people debating over there. 154 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:53.959 Oh my gosh, well fascinating. 155 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.639 Well let's let's dive into some calvinism. I know that 156 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:03.360 you you yourself used to be a Calvinist. I was 157 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:07.399 a Calvinist as well. You know what what led you 158 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:11.360 specifically out of that? Jay, What are some of the 159 00:08:11.759 --> 00:08:13.199 issues that you started to see with it? What was 160 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:14.399 your progression out of that. 161 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:19.399 I'm curious that Father Johnathan, did you have a background Protestant? 162 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:21.279 Did you convert or were you raise Orthodox? 163 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:21.560 Well? 164 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:26.279 I was theoretically I'm a cradle but when I was 165 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:28.839 a when I was in high school around tenth grade, 166 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.920 I started going to a Presbyterian church and attending their 167 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:35.320 Bible studies and their youth pastors. I have to give 168 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:37.720 them a lot of credit. They they taught me Bible, 169 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:40.879 you know, they really did, and that that has literally 170 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:42.600 stayed with me for fifty years. 171 00:08:42.600 --> 00:08:43.879 A lot of what I learned there. 172 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:46.960 But they didn't teach a lot of theology. It was 173 00:08:47.000 --> 00:08:48.679 here's what the Bible says, and you know we we 174 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:51.039 kind of read it and read it and read it 175 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:53.879 and kind of memorized it. So I didn't learn a 176 00:08:53.919 --> 00:08:55.759 lot of theology. So I have to say, I don't 177 00:08:55.759 --> 00:08:57.679 really come from that kind of a background. 178 00:08:57.759 --> 00:08:58.480 That experience. 179 00:09:00.480 --> 00:09:03.639 My experience Joy goes well that that background and not 180 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:05.960 all Calvinists, right, We're not saying this all calvin but 181 00:09:05.960 --> 00:09:09.519 it's definitely like a debate world for real. When it 182 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.279 came to that realm, it's like you weren't Calvinists enough 183 00:09:12.279 --> 00:09:13.000 at times, you. 184 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:15.600 Know, yeah right, yeah, yeah yeah. 185 00:09:15.639 --> 00:09:18.600 Like so I got into that when I was about nineteen. 186 00:09:19.200 --> 00:09:23.200 I got into reading scriptures from an evangelical Bible study 187 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:25.159 I was invited to when I was eighteen, and then 188 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.960 kind of eventually wandered my way into reform Baptist stuff, 189 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:30.879 like you said, because I went to a Reform Baptist 190 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:31.919 Bible College for a. 191 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.799 While and there everybody, you know, all the young guys. 192 00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:36.600 All we did was just kind of, you know, talk 193 00:09:36.600 --> 00:09:39.320 about church history and biblical theology all the time, and 194 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:41.879 so we would get into these debates about well, you know, 195 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:44.000 what about you know, the church fathers, they taught this 196 00:09:44.240 --> 00:09:48.320 and that. And I remember there was a really formative 197 00:09:48.399 --> 00:09:51.679 situation where I ended up stuck at Bible College throughout 198 00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:55.240 the whole winter break. And so now everybody else left 199 00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:57.120 and I was stuck there for the whole you know, 200 00:09:57.159 --> 00:09:59.399 three or four weeks or whatever it was, and I 201 00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:01.120 didn't have anything else to do. So I decided I 202 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:03.519 was going to read The City of God. So I 203 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:06.600 read from the beginning all the way up until about 204 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:08.919 page nine hundred, and I wrote down all these I 205 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:10.960 wrote down all these questions because there was nothing else 206 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:11.159 to do. 207 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:13.639 It's just me and in Louisville, sitting there by my well, 208 00:10:14.320 --> 00:10:16.120 and I didn't know anybody. So I just read that 209 00:10:16.159 --> 00:10:17.879 the whole time, and I wrote all these questions. 210 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:19.279 And I took him to a couple of the of 211 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:23.559 the professors, a couple of them are still pretty still 212 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:27.320 teaching Baptist Bible College stuff. And I said, here's all 213 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:30.840 these questions. I said, I don't understand how we could believe that. 214 00:10:30.919 --> 00:10:34.759 You know, we like Augustine, if you know, he's got 215 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:36.960 all these things that we think are just you know. 216 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.519 Catholic crazy accretions. 217 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:43.879 And I didn't get very good answers, so I'll just 218 00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.639 leave it at that. But eventually they said, well, you 219 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:48.440 might need to leave this this Bible college. 220 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:52.600 This might not be for you. So I didn't. 221 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.720 I wasn't ready for any changes at that time. But 222 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.279 at that time I was more so thinking, I'm I 223 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:00.720 think I believe in an infant bat Baptism. I think 224 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:02.879 I believe in pedo Baptism, and I was reading a 225 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:08.200 bunch of reform stuff from Bonson and rush Juni and 226 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:10.879 Van Till and all those people. And so I found 227 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.240 a PCA church at that time that I liked, which 228 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:17.799 is the Conservative Presbyterians, and met one of the elders there, 229 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:20.159 got to be kind of friendly with him, and we 230 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:22.960 He introduced me to a lot of stuff that ironically 231 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:25.559 would later point me in the direction out of out 232 00:11:25.559 --> 00:11:29.279 of Protestantism. And so in some of the circles of Presbyterians, 233 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:32.120 there was a movement back then that's now kind of 234 00:11:32.120 --> 00:11:35.360 attached to Doug Wilson's stuff, which is kind of people 235 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:38.320 looking into high church, you know, liturgy and that kind 236 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:40.960 of stuff in the in the Protestant reform world. So 237 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:43.200 I was kind of introduced to these questions at that time, 238 00:11:43.240 --> 00:11:44.320 but I still wasn't ready. 239 00:11:44.360 --> 00:11:45.919 I remember, I'll try to make this short and don't 240 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:46.879 want to ramble a whole time, but. 241 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:49.600 I met with some Catholic priests just out of curiosity, 242 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:51.600 because I wanted to know, well, what do you guys 243 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:55.039 teach about, you know, Augustine and Grace and all this stuff. 244 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:57.320 And I remember having you know, one on ones with 245 00:11:57.399 --> 00:11:59.519 several Catholic priests, and they said, well, here's the Catholic 246 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:02.360 Catechist them and I remember getting that, and I remember 247 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.039 reading through about half of it, and I was like, now, 248 00:12:04.039 --> 00:12:04.840 I don't believe a lot. 249 00:12:04.720 --> 00:12:07.360 Of this stuff. This stuff's crazy. So I wasn't ready for. 250 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.039 You know, Mary and stuff, and I thought all that 251 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:14.559 was out there and wild. So but I did have 252 00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:18.519 a gradual movement towards reading more and more Church Fathers, 253 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:20.200 and so for me at that time, it was really 254 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:21.559 just I. 255 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:22.919 Didn't know about Orthodoxy yet. 256 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:24.799 This was like, this is about two thousand and one, 257 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:28.440 and so I bought the Church Fathers, the Schaft set, 258 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:29.799 and I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna have 259 00:12:29.840 --> 00:12:32.039 to start reading this. So I started reading Jerome, and 260 00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:36.440 I started reading Ambrose, and I started reading Cyprian, Saint Cyprian, 261 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:38.360 and I started noticing, well, they don't. 262 00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:41.000 Teach anything like what we teach. So I was at 263 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:42.240 a crossroads. 264 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:45.639 And all I knew about at that time in two 265 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:49.600 thousand and three ish, the only things on the Internet 266 00:12:49.600 --> 00:12:52.840 that you could ever find were Romechalic stuff and like 267 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:57.240 Calvinist Protestants everything that that was the debate at that time, right, 268 00:12:57.360 --> 00:13:00.519 all the blogs, all the stuff, all the forums. You know, 269 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:03.360 you would just see people debating on blogs and websites 270 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.720 and forums back and forth. So I just thought that 271 00:13:05.720 --> 00:13:07.440 that was the extent of the debate. I didn't even 272 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:10.080 know about Orthodoxy except for I'd heard there was a 273 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:14.039 book by you know callistos Ware about Orthodox Church, but 274 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:16.120 I didn't have it, so I just didn't think anything 275 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:17.639 about it. Plus I didn't live with anywhere near an 276 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:23.080 Orthodox church. So that was probably the hardest decision for 277 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:25.240 me actually in my life at that time, because I 278 00:13:25.320 --> 00:13:28.080 was really I mean I was a huge student of 279 00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:32.360 Bonson van til rush JUNI I did a semester at Bonson's. 280 00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:34.080 There used to be think of Bonson seminary, So I 281 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:36.039 was learning apologetics from doctor Bonnson. 282 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:37.879 Like father father Johnathan. 283 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:41.000 Said, you know, we were just like I mean, it 284 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:43.799 was just Bible NonStop. I mean, we we were like 285 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:46.559 temultic Jews with the Bible. I mean like we were 286 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.799 just studying it NonStop. I mean we would have h 287 00:13:50.159 --> 00:13:54.639 we'd have morning Bible before church church was like two 288 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:58.200 hours of lectures from Bible. We would have Sunday night 289 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.360 Bible study and then we would have Winnesday and Friday 290 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:07.559 meetings to read, you know, reform theologians. It was crazy 291 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:09.279 because if you don't, I don't know if you guys know, 292 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:11.960 but like in the Bons and Russian stuff, like, they 293 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.279 were theonomists, So they have this very high view of 294 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.399 Biblical law, and so there's a lot of you know, 295 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:23.039 emphasis on what relevance you know, the Torah has for today. 296 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:25.720 Now they're not messianic news or anything like that, but 297 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:27.799 they just have this view that a lot of those 298 00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:29.720 laws are applicable to to today. 299 00:14:31.480 --> 00:14:32.679 So, you know, it was it was. 300 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.279 Really difficult to move away from that because I was 301 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:36.039 still wedded to it. 302 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:38.080 But one of the things that really stuck with me. 303 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:40.759 Was when I read Russiani's book called Foundations of Social 304 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:44.200 Order and there was a chapter on the Ecumenical Councils, 305 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:47.639 and so rush Janey ironically had this high view of 306 00:14:47.720 --> 00:14:50.320 the ecumenical councils. And I was starting to read The 307 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:53.559 Church Fathers at that time, and I had read Cyril 308 00:14:53.639 --> 00:14:56.279 and I'd read Ethesis, so I knew kind of what 309 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:59.639 it was all about. And then rush Janis take and 310 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:01.919 Foundtions of Social Order was actually that. 311 00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:06.200 He thought, I'm not joking, he's he thinks that Cyril's. 312 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:09.240 Position is in the storis disposition, and so rushing you 313 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:12.600 got it completely backwards. And that really shook me at 314 00:15:12.600 --> 00:15:14.200 the time, and I just I didn't know what to do. 315 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:15.919 I took that to my reform pastor and said, hey, 316 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:17.440 this is this is totally backwards. 317 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:19.759 I mean, how could he mess up that? You know 318 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:20.320 that big? 319 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.480 And well we're all fallible, Yeah, we're all fallible, but 320 00:15:23.519 --> 00:15:25.200 I mean that's a pretty big mistake if we're going 321 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:29.679 to be saying why we're not why we're reformed. So 322 00:15:29.879 --> 00:15:32.000 then I decided it was going to be an issue 323 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:36.000 of not so much this church father versus that church father. 324 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:38.559 What's the root of Protestantism. 325 00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.519 Well, it's it's ultimately, if you're a classical Protestant, it's 326 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:42.600 Bible alone. 327 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.120 It's sole scripture, that's the ultimate primary authority. 328 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:47.200 So I figured out I'm going to have to answer 329 00:15:47.279 --> 00:15:49.600 this question of how did the canon come to be? 330 00:15:49.720 --> 00:15:53.480 And I listened to tons and tons of Roman Catholic 331 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.840 and reform debates. I went back and be forth, and 332 00:15:57.039 --> 00:15:58.919 at that time it was all you know, James White 333 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:03.080 debating athletics, and it was Jerrymagticks debating Bonnson, and you know, 334 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:05.240 reform to Catholic debates was about the extent of all 335 00:16:05.240 --> 00:16:05.799 you could find. 336 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:08.399 And I went through all those and then I just 337 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.279 said the best way to do this would be to read. 338 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:14.799 A bunch of the Protestant evangelical scholars on the history 339 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:15.919 of the formation of the Cannon. 340 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:17.360 And so I read F. F. 341 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:21.080 Bruce's book, and I read Lee McDonald's book their Evangelical scholars, 342 00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:23.320 and here they are admitting, oh, yeah, of course tradition 343 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:24.480 plays a key role. 344 00:16:24.320 --> 00:16:26.360 In the Bible. Coming to me and I'm like, what 345 00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:27.679 so again? 346 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:29.720 And you and you know, you take these questions to 347 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:33.080 your Protestant pastors and well, you know, I don't know. 348 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:36.679 I've never read that. Yeah, I haven't looked at that, but. 349 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:38.559 I'm sure we can find somebody that knows. And then 350 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.200 they'll refer you to, you know, some professor at Reformed 351 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.159 Theological Seminary or Westminster or whatever. And you know, I 352 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:48.279 just never really got good answers, and so I decided 353 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:50.080 I would have to be Roman Catholic. So that led 354 00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:52.879 me to the Roman Catholic world still didn't know about Orthodoxy. 355 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:53.840 When when I bought the church. 356 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.919 Father said, I just assumed that the Western church fathers 357 00:16:56.960 --> 00:17:00.200 had it all right, right, So I just started reading Jerome, 358 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:04.759 and I started reading you know, Ambrose and Cyprian and Augustine, 359 00:17:04.759 --> 00:17:06.920 and I just thought, oh, well, Chris System and you know, 360 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:10.680 he might be all right. And Cappadocians maybe they're cool, 361 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.839 but there's no pressing need for me to read them. 362 00:17:13.079 --> 00:17:14.519 We all believe in the Trinity, right, I mean, they 363 00:17:14.519 --> 00:17:16.200 were defending the Trinity. Why do we need to We 364 00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:20.599 don't need to rehash that debate. Yeah, So long story short, Yeah, 365 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:23.319 went I went in that direction. I left the Reformed Church. 366 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.000 I started attending a local Catholic church in two thousand 367 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.720 and three, went through what they call Catechumen r CIA, 368 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:32.079 and UH spent. 369 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.079 About ten ten years in the Roman Catholic world. 370 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.160 UH got really serious about attending the traditional Latin Mass. 371 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:38.160 Did that for many, many. 372 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.000 Years, drove for two hours for probably five or six 373 00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:45.839 years to do that in Memphis or nashvillecause the only 374 00:17:45.880 --> 00:17:47.480 place that would have the Latin masks that I could 375 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:47.759 go to. 376 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:49.039 UH. 377 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:50.599 And then I and then I got to this point 378 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.599 where it was like I was so immersed in church 379 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.920 history I got really into Tonism and all that, and 380 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:57.000 it was like, well, what am I going to do 381 00:17:57.039 --> 00:18:00.400 with pre post Vatican two. Long story short, that got 382 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:04.119 me looking at the Orthodox question. I encountered Orthodox blogs 383 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:06.599 in two thousand and six for the first time. I 384 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.799 wasn't ready to convert, but I would hash it out. 385 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:11.880 I'd argue with all these different people that were online 386 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.480 the Orthodox world at that time. Yeah, and so that 387 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:19.200 kind of led me just to start reading Eastern Fathers, 388 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:21.359 and that took me another ten years. I wasn't ready to, 389 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:24.240 you know, because I mean I obviously think, well, maybe 390 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:26.640 you're just unstable and you're just converting to one thing 391 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:29.039 of the next. I would actually take long periods of time, right, 392 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:31.680 I was Ronancallay for about ten years, and it took 393 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:34.519 me another ten years before I decided that I would 394 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:36.519 go into Orthodoxy. I mean I held off for a 395 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.440 really long time. I say, I have the longest catecub 396 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:42.440 in it, like I intentionally I was a ten year category. 397 00:18:42.799 --> 00:18:44.839 So I held off for a long times. 398 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.240 Anyway, I'm sorry, I'm going to keep talking about myself. 399 00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:50.400 It's just kind of rambling and weird. But long story short, Yeah, 400 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:53.400 I just I felt like ultimately, for me at the 401 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:57.200 end of the day, the main issue of what led 402 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.480 me out of Protestantism was looking into the cannon. It's 403 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.880 historical formation, the reliance on church tradition for not just canonicity, 404 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:06.720 but even things like absolutely authorship. 405 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:08.680 That's those are things that we. 406 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.119 Don't I'm the gospels, they don't name them their author 407 00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:13.440 in a case of like Matthew, right, I mean, and 408 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:15.759 even if it says Matthew, well, there's other gospels that 409 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:18.160 are false gospels you know that we don't accept. Why 410 00:19:18.160 --> 00:19:19.720 don't we accept them? So you can't take it just 411 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.519 because the name, Oh this was the Gospel of Thomas, Right, Well, 412 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:24.079 that's anot we don't want that one. 413 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.200 Well how do we what do we adjudge between? Right? 414 00:19:26.319 --> 00:19:30.680 So yeah, more I got into the church history, more, 415 00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:32.640 I got into the Church fathers. More I realized that, well, 416 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.440 it just can't be Protestantism. And I was also, you know, 417 00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:38.680 still really into the Bible the whole time, so I 418 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:42.119 would always be encountering passages that didn't fit with the 419 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:44.319 system that I had. So if you've got this solo 420 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:47.880 feed a justication by faith alone, you know, Calvinist, you know, 421 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:51.200 tulip system, You've got all these problem texts that you're 422 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:54.440 kind of have to deal with, and over time, more 423 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.039 and more of those problem texts just really started mounting up, 424 00:19:57.079 --> 00:20:00.359 and I didn't find the answers really sufficient. But the 425 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:04.039 biggest things actually in terms of specifically Calvinism, and what 426 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:07.279 I would say is just really ultimately the errors of 427 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:11.599 a lot of Latin theology period, would be the questions 428 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:15.440 of absolute divine simplicity and the energies and the issues 429 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:19.559 of Christology. Because once I realized that Calvinist Christology, even 430 00:20:19.599 --> 00:20:23.279 though they don't intend it to be a lot of times, 431 00:20:23.319 --> 00:20:27.440 it actually is a Nestorian Christology. So you can take 432 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:29.599 it in two directions. You can go to an historian and 433 00:20:29.640 --> 00:20:33.359 you can say that the subject who was punished on 434 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.359 the cross by the Father is a human subject, Jesus 435 00:20:36.359 --> 00:20:39.720 of Nazareth, which would be an historian option, or you 436 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:42.079 could say that the son was damned by the Father, 437 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.519 which it would be an Arian option because that would 438 00:20:44.519 --> 00:20:47.480 mean the Trinity is no longer you know one. 439 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:50.200 So all those are the only two options if you 440 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:50.720 believe the. 441 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:55.200 Classical Protestant doctrine of the son being punished. 442 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.440 As you know, the payment for the sins of penal 443 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:00.440 substitutionary atonement, right exactly. 444 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:04.480 You mentioned what what must be a beautiful a doctrine. 445 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:07.119 You mentioned what must be a beautiful teaching and it 446 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:10.079 must be a beautiful thing because it's named after a flower, tulip. 447 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:12.279 I think you mentioned that a moment ago, and and 448 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:14.359 Luther and I were kind of anxious to talk to 449 00:21:14.359 --> 00:21:16.359 you about that, but you said something and I really 450 00:21:16.440 --> 00:21:18.640 want to follow up with you on that, and uh 451 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:22.279 and and that is we were talking about the the 452 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.720 the the incredible explosion and growth of videos against Orthodoxy. 453 00:21:27.079 --> 00:21:30.359 But at the same time, they're a lot of Protestants 454 00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.000 and certainly a lot of Calvinists, they're encountering the Fathers, 455 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:36.319 in some cases for the first time, and they're having 456 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:39.279 to to grapple and deal with things. And they're there, 457 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.680 and I've spoken with some of them privately and it's 458 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:44.799 they don't want me to quote them, but I mean, 459 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:48.079 what they're saying privately about what they're what they're wrestling 460 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:52.279 over is is profound. Do you see a change in 461 00:21:53.839 --> 00:21:57.000 Protestantism in general because of this? And I think the 462 00:21:57.160 --> 00:22:01.279 encounter maybe goes back only maybe twenty years when when 463 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:03.400 when this started to get very serious? 464 00:22:04.200 --> 00:22:05.720 Do you see that? I see it? 465 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:07.559 But I mean I'm wondering what you see in your 466 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:10.079 encounters and talking with people. I'm starting to hear them 467 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:14.160 talk about real presence. I'm talking they're starting to see 468 00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:18.160 to Pio baptism and things like that, and it's like, 469 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:22.240 oh my god, this is what you guys abhored thirty 470 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:24.799 years ago. And now you're you're actually saying there must 471 00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:25.960 be something to a Jay Dyer. 472 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.079 What do you think? What do you say? 473 00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:28.359 Absolutely? Yeah? 474 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:32.000 I mean, like I said, so, you know, twenty years ago, 475 00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:38.000 maybe two thousand and two or three, the Presbyterians, the PCA, 476 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:40.000 and some of the OPC people had what they call 477 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:44.240 the Auburn Avenue Conference, and that was a lot of 478 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.240 these guys at that time dealing with grappling with the 479 00:22:47.279 --> 00:22:49.759 things that you're talking about. And so a lot of 480 00:22:49.759 --> 00:22:52.720 them were reading Schmaman Feathers, Schiemann's books. They were reading 481 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:57.799 books that dealt with liturgical theology. Peterliheart, James Jordan, That's 482 00:22:57.799 --> 00:22:59.920 the people I'm talking about, and they're realizing that, hey, 483 00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.880 there's actually a lot of liturgy in the Bible. There's 484 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:05.799 actually a lot of symbolism that could point us in 485 00:23:05.880 --> 00:23:08.519 the direction of typology that maybe is relevant for the 486 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:12.519 New Testament Church. Maybe vestiments aren't a bad idea. Maybe 487 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.799 it's not wrong to have incense, right, So, you know, 488 00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:19.720 and this is ironic because, like you're saying, thirty forty 489 00:23:19.799 --> 00:23:22.200 years ago, the Reform, the Calvinists, you know, they had 490 00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:25.359 this strong position which they called the regulative principle of worship, 491 00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.039 which is the idea that laid down in like the 492 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:32.440 Westminster Confession, that you can only worship. 493 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:35.519 God in the way that he is explicitly mentioned. 494 00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:39.440 But of course the difficulty there, and I've been making 495 00:23:39.519 --> 00:23:41.799 this point quite a lot with the Protestants in the 496 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:43.799 last few years, is that, well, isn't it odd that 497 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.279 the New Testament then doesn't give us a pattern of worship? 498 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:51.599 Now we have of Saint Paul complaining about abuses, but 499 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:54.640 how do we know the layout of what we're supposed 500 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.599 to do? If you're going to make the argument, as 501 00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:01.440 many Calvinists do, that Nadab and Abaihu were put to 502 00:24:01.559 --> 00:24:03.960 death because they offered strange fire, they did what they 503 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:07.359 weren't supposed to do in Leviticus, because they didn't go 504 00:24:07.400 --> 00:24:08.839 according to the explicit commands. 505 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:10.880 Where are the explicit commands of how you do the 506 00:24:10.920 --> 00:24:11.599 worship service? 507 00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:16.279 And it's intentionally, i think, providentially not there because there's 508 00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:19.359 a reliance on the fact that the Apostles and that 509 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.799 here's the weird part. Every Protestant scholar and even Anglican 510 00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:28.519 liturgists that I've read, they admit that the Apostles had 511 00:24:28.680 --> 00:24:33.480 some sort of liturgy that they established in the seas, 512 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:36.200 the Apostolic seas and churches they set up that was 513 00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:39.079 some kind of blending of the Temple and the Synagogue service. 514 00:24:39.160 --> 00:24:43.759 This is pretty pretty unanimous in history of liturgy books 515 00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:46.440 they will read, even from Protestants. So to me, that 516 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:48.519 was kind of another big, you know thing when I 517 00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:51.039 read that many years ago that I didn't realize when 518 00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:53.160 I was Protestant, that liturgy has a key role in 519 00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:56.440 the formation of the Biblical canon. And when I learned that, 520 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:01.119 that was pretty much I think the McDonald or Brusa 521 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:04.839 says that you can't divorce the daily lectionaries, the daily 522 00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:09.039 readings from the canon and how the canon of Scripture 523 00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:12.640 was was decided upon in terms of the many centuries actually, 524 00:25:12.920 --> 00:25:15.119 plus even the fact that it's centuries and you know, 525 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:17.920 the Orthodox view, if we accept the you know trollo 526 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.680 and I see it too, that's really where they affirm 527 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:25.960 the canons of Carthage that list our loose canon. 528 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:26.720 You could say. 529 00:25:28.119 --> 00:25:31.960 That to me, and if you're a Protestants, I will wouldn't. 530 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:34.839 If we're Protestants in the in the first century, the 531 00:25:34.920 --> 00:25:36.960 first thing we would do is decide the canon. 532 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:39.519 The Posts. 533 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:43.200 Would have said, hey, uh, we got to have Jerusalem 534 00:25:43.279 --> 00:25:44.759 Council to right acts fifteen. 535 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:47.799 Let's have Jerusalem to right away here. And I don't 536 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:49.799 know one hundred eighty or ninety eighty, well, I guess it. 537 00:25:49.920 --> 00:25:52.519 I'll be dead, But I don't know right after Why 538 00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:54.519 didn't Why wouldn't happen in the you know, John's day? 539 00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:56.599 Why wouldn't John say, let's get together. We got to 540 00:25:56.640 --> 00:25:59.680 decide this Bible first. I mean, we're Bible alone right. 541 00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.160 Anyway, So I'm rambling, But again, yeah, I think you're 542 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:09.200 right father, that so many Protestants are beginning to see 543 00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:14.640 that there's not just an issue of throwing this or 544 00:26:14.680 --> 00:26:18.039 that Bible verse. There's a bigger issue at work here, 545 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:21.480 which is how does this Bible come to be? And 546 00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:25.880 the very people that make these decisions about putting these 547 00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:29.359 books into the Bible, none of them believe Protestant stuff. 548 00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:33.279 And then the option usually for Protestants at that point. 549 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:34.000 I tried this too. 550 00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:36.359 When I first encountered this was well, I'm going to 551 00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:40.680 try to find protestant Ish quotes in the church followers. 552 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:43.759 Well, you know, one of the other things that people 553 00:26:43.880 --> 00:26:46.440 say about the IM not going to go into this, 554 00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:49.559 but just regarding the canon, is that the canon was 555 00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.920 formed very early. Excuse me, the Lectionary was formed very early. 556 00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.400 And one of the reasons why Revelation was debated for 557 00:26:56.440 --> 00:26:58.839 the longest time, because one of the arguments was people 558 00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:01.440 at point and say, it's not the Electionary, right, you know, 559 00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:03.359 it's not already one of the books that we're reading. 560 00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:06.319 So anyway, but we got we got so much more. 561 00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:06.799 We want to. 562 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.839 One point on that, which a lot of people don't 563 00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:12.559 know about. I think it's in the in the le 564 00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:14.920 McDonald book. If you read the Lee McDonald book. 565 00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.680 He said, there's a whole chapter in there on how St. 566 00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:23.279 Athenasius went to Rome and Rome was doubting, Uh, the 567 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:29.920 Catholic Epistles and Revelation and Athanasius said, it's our tradition. 568 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:32.440 This is this is a valid book, you should include it. 569 00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:33.799 So it's actually the. 570 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:36.880 Pope of Rome was convinced to keep the Catholic Epistles 571 00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:40.880 in the Roman Canon by Saint Anthenasius. And if once 572 00:27:40.920 --> 00:27:44.039 you start to realize that, you know, in the Protestant mindset, 573 00:27:44.039 --> 00:27:46.000 it's kind of like sold scripture to the Bible just 574 00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:48.039 sort of like falls out of heaven as this like 575 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:50.920 complete thing, and then you realize, no, actually, the history 576 00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:56.880 is God using people through divine providence like Athenasius to say, uh, 577 00:27:57.079 --> 00:27:59.119 and I'm not saying that, I'm not saying it's true 578 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:01.960 because Rome said. I'm just saying that it is important 579 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:05.559 that Rome included the Apocalypse in the Cannon. But it 580 00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:07.720 wasn't just the pope saying I had to create the 581 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.279 apocalypse and no, it's out and Nasious had to go 582 00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:10.799 convince it. 583 00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:17.000 It's interesting that earlier you mentioned like as you were 584 00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.839 thinking through that calvinistic system of yours, like you're you're 585 00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:23.839 seeing scriptures like that weren't really, you know, compatible with 586 00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:27.839 your your calvinistic beliefs. And I actually had a similar 587 00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:30.519 kind of experience at my previous church when I, you know, 588 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:31.480 I was asked to preach. 589 00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:33.440 We're preaching through the Sermon on the. 590 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:38.279 Mount, and I was just like, man like, justification seems 591 00:28:38.319 --> 00:28:40.640 like a process, and you know, like as you walk 592 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:42.960 through this Sermon on the Mount, like text I was 593 00:28:43.000 --> 00:28:45.000 struggling with was like judging not unless. 594 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:47.480 You be judging the measure that you judge, you'll be judge. 595 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.920 Or also the you know, text about forgiveness like forgive 596 00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:52.599 so that your heavenly Father would forgive you. And I'm 597 00:28:52.680 --> 00:28:55.759 just like, man like, how do I preach this text? 598 00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:58.720 And I was like struggling because I was on stage. 599 00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:01.319 I was like, yeah, this is what scholars you know 600 00:29:01.480 --> 00:29:03.519 say like rc sproll this that and the third and 601 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:06.319 and here you know, so like I had this I 602 00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:08.440 was I was almost like arrested to the text in 603 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:10.160 a way where I was like I had to give 604 00:29:10.240 --> 00:29:12.480 two views because I didn't know what to do because 605 00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:14.759 I was like, clearly the text is saying something different 606 00:29:15.079 --> 00:29:17.640 than what Calvinism teach. What would you say for you 607 00:29:17.839 --> 00:29:19.839 were kind of those things that you looked at and 608 00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:22.880 you're just like this this does not work. 609 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:23.319 Oh. 610 00:29:23.359 --> 00:29:26.359 There were so many I mean I remember thinking you know, 611 00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:31.799 like the parable of the sower. You know, in Calvinism, 612 00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:35.319 if you're regenerated, you're regenerated, right, that doesn't go way 613 00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:39.400 because only the elect are regenerated. But in the parable 614 00:29:39.480 --> 00:29:43.200 of the Sower, it's very clearly the analogy is used 615 00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:46.319 that one of the seeds sprouts up to new life 616 00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:49.799 and withers, aways and dies. And I could never make 617 00:29:49.880 --> 00:29:51.440 sense of that. And of course you have to say 618 00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:55.480 things like, well it didn't really spring up to now. 619 00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:00.640 The analogy doesn't work anymore if it didn't really spring 620 00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:01.359 up to new life. 621 00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:03.960 And you know, there's there's so many other passages like that, 622 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:06.519 where you know, in Hebrews, you know, you have the 623 00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:09.440 passage about tasting of the heavenly gift, and you know 624 00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.559 they've been washed, they've tasted of the life to come. 625 00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.319 How do you taste of the life to come? If? 626 00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:18.559 I mean, that could only be a regeneration and you 627 00:30:18.680 --> 00:30:22.240 can't be unregenerated if you're regenerated. So, you know, so 628 00:30:22.359 --> 00:30:26.440 many of those passages were difficult passages too that related 629 00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:29.079 to baptism. I noticed that, you know, every time we 630 00:30:29.119 --> 00:30:34.720 would talk about the right of baptism, it was distinct 631 00:30:34.839 --> 00:30:35.960 from all those. 632 00:30:35.799 --> 00:30:39.319 Things in the New Testament about baptism, and it's. 633 00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:43.640 Like, well, you know, how come Paul isn't distinguishing visible 634 00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:48.160 invisible church, visible baptism from invisible baptism. Right, It's always 635 00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:51.279 spoken of as this unit of act, even to the 636 00:30:51.319 --> 00:30:53.599 point of, you know, Titus three five, the washing of 637 00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:59.119 the labor of regeneration, like this seems to be the 638 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:04.279 grace and the sacrament. The physical elements are united here. 639 00:31:04.519 --> 00:31:07.240 And so the more I noticed this union, and the 640 00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:09.160 more I noticed that, well, now wait a minute. So 641 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.920 we're doing the same thing with ecclesiology, where we're saying 642 00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:17.480 that the church is invisible, it's a spiritual thing, and 643 00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:20.599 then there's this visible church that's kind of a big mess, right, 644 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:23.519 and the true Elector amongst the you know, all these 645 00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:25.839 different groups. And it's like, but Paul is always saying 646 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:28.160 one Lord, one faith, one body, one baptism. 647 00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:28.960 It's always joined. 648 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:32.039 And those were you know, when I would think about 649 00:31:32.039 --> 00:31:34.119 those pastors another here's an overlooked one too. 650 00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:36.319 That really stuck with me. 651 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:39.920 When I was a Calvinist. I remember, you know, I 652 00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:42.240 was really into covenant theology. If you're Reformed, you know, 653 00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:43.519 you love Covenant theology. 654 00:31:43.599 --> 00:31:44.640 You really want to you. 655 00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:47.720 Want to stress Covenant theology when you're discussing with a 656 00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:50.319 dispensationalist or a Baptist. You want to say, hey, you know, 657 00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:53.559 we've got these Covenant blessings just like or even better 658 00:31:53.680 --> 00:31:53.960 than the. 659 00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:55.480 Old Testament that people had. 660 00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:58.440 You know, we can have people included in the Covenant 661 00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:01.680 more so, right, because if you in the Old Testament, 662 00:32:02.039 --> 00:32:03.319 you know, it was the males that. 663 00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:05.279 Were circumcised to be included in the Covenant. 664 00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:08.920 Now it's anybody, men, women, gentiles, everybody can be included 665 00:32:08.920 --> 00:32:11.839 in the Covenant. But then I realized, well, I'm making 666 00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:16.640 an argument against a Baptist or against a dispensationalists. That's historical. 667 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.400 And then I started thinking, you know, the history of 668 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:25.519 the Covenant in the Old Testament is one people, right, 669 00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:29.720 And yeah, in the Old Testament, certainly other people outside 670 00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:31.599 the nation of Israel could be joined to the Nation 671 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:32.720 of Israel as possible. 672 00:32:33.920 --> 00:32:36.759 But the point is that there's one group or church 673 00:32:36.920 --> 00:32:38.839 called the people of Israel, the Ecclesia. 674 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:41.119 And then in the New Testament, if I'm going to 675 00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.480 make that historical argument, I can't just restrict it to 676 00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:46.039 the New Testament. There seems to be one historical group 677 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:48.759 as well in the New Testament, and so the church 678 00:32:48.839 --> 00:32:52.240 has to also be just as one, and even more 679 00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:55.880 so one because it's post penthecost than the Old Testament Church. 680 00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:59.359 And so I realized that I couldn't argue that the 681 00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:04.119 Church arch existed amongst thirty thousand different groups. Right, it 682 00:33:04.240 --> 00:33:07.000 has to be a single visible and all the analogies 683 00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:10.799 that not just Paul, but Jesus uses right, the tree, 684 00:33:11.319 --> 00:33:16.000 one tree, the sheep fold, right, it's all these unit 685 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.920 of things that are also united in history. Doesn't mean 686 00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:21.319 that the Church doesn't have periods of you know, schisms 687 00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:23.759 and stuff like that. But I'm just saying that there's 688 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:27.319 also a historical continuity to the historicity of God's people 689 00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:28.319 being a single people. 690 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:30.039 Jay. 691 00:33:30.079 --> 00:33:33.359 When we talk in orthodoxy about what's central to our 692 00:33:33.559 --> 00:33:35.599 to our faith, what's central to our church, we talk 693 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:39.440 about across the Death the Resurrection. Is it fair to 694 00:33:39.559 --> 00:33:43.839 say that when you were a Calvinist that rather than that? 695 00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:48.160 Is it fair to say that Tulip was the foundational 696 00:33:48.440 --> 00:33:53.720 center of Calvinist theology rather than the Cross, the Death 697 00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:54.279 the Resurrection? 698 00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:55.400 Is that favorable? 699 00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:58.680 That's another angle that's a great critique, you know, because 700 00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:01.640 you would if you read the epistoles. 701 00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:02.480 You know, Paul. 702 00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:07.240 Paul's always stressing those things. The gospel is death, grow resurrection. 703 00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:10.679 The gospel is that, And then if you're a Calvinist, 704 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:12.880 you're thinking, well, that's not really the gospel. The gospel is. 705 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.280 Roman's nine and the divine decree, right, I mean, the 706 00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:19.440 gospel is this sort of process of you knowing the 707 00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:22.559 divine mind's decree of who the elect are, and then 708 00:34:22.679 --> 00:34:25.519 understanding that there's toll to pravity, that you don't have 709 00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:28.800 the ability to move yourself towards God, that you have 710 00:34:28.920 --> 00:34:33.039 to have irresistible grace and monargism, which is the divine 711 00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.840 energy has to act in you to cause you effectually 712 00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:39.199 to believe. So there's a loss of synergism and all 713 00:34:39.239 --> 00:34:42.320 that in the process of salvation, and there's no notion 714 00:34:42.440 --> 00:34:46.840 of losing that faith falling away because the elect or 715 00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:50.480 that's who Christ died for limited atonement, right, irresistible grace, 716 00:34:50.519 --> 00:34:54.199 and then perseverance, meaning that only the elect ultimately perseveres. 717 00:34:54.280 --> 00:34:58.440 So yeah, that's an interesting angle as well that you know, 718 00:34:59.320 --> 00:35:02.840 it's kind of like when you're if you're an Evangelical, Baptist, 719 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:05.039 not Reformed. You know, you think when somebody says, what's 720 00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:07.400 the gospel, and you think, oh, it's Romans Road. You know, 721 00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:09.679 you go to Romans three and you don't understand that 722 00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:11.199 you're a sinner, and then you go over here that 723 00:35:11.239 --> 00:35:12.440 you can't do good, and then you go here it 724 00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:14.480 at Romans five that you know justified by it. 725 00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:16.159 So it's like this, that's the. 726 00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:22.800 Pathway that supposedly lowest common denominor scales the Gospel down. 727 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:26.000 But that's not what Paul says. How come Paul's always 728 00:35:26.039 --> 00:35:29.840 saying resurrection, resurrection, ascension, ascension, and I just, yeah, you're 729 00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:30.440 absolutely right. 730 00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:33.159 Like at a certain point you realize, you know, those 731 00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:38.840 weren't really significant and reform theology or Pentecost, I mean, 732 00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:40.280 even the action of Pentecost. 733 00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.519 It's like I realized eventually that. 734 00:35:42.599 --> 00:35:45.760 Well, Pentecost is the empowering of the church, and Jesus says, 735 00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:48.960 I'm not going to leave you, forsake you, and I'll 736 00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:51.400 guide you into all truth. And yet here we are, 737 00:35:51.480 --> 00:35:54.360 as Protestants and reform we're saying, well right away that 738 00:35:54.440 --> 00:35:57.880 you know, the church pretty much failed historically, right, But 739 00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.519 where was this promise of Pentecost, guidance and so forth. Oh, well, 740 00:36:01.559 --> 00:36:04.159 that's all for the elect. But wait a minute. When 741 00:36:04.199 --> 00:36:08.119 Paul writes to the Ephesians when he's talking about predestination, 742 00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.880 he's not writing to the elect, to the invisible church. 743 00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:14.760 He's writing to a visible community at Ephesus. 744 00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:17.079 And that was always a problem for me in terms 745 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:20.280 of exegesis of Ephesians, because I have a you know, 746 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:22.800 a million reform commentaries and I'm over here reading Charles 747 00:36:22.880 --> 00:36:26.760 Hodge and you know how to see exegy, you know Ephesians. Oh, 748 00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:29.519 this is Paul writing to the regenerate at ephicis to 749 00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:32.920 the elect. No, it's written to the visible church. And 750 00:36:33.039 --> 00:36:35.920 that's a problem. That means that the Protestant, the Calvinist 751 00:36:35.960 --> 00:36:38.159 of auction predestination is not what's in Paul's mind. 752 00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:38.320 There. 753 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:41.719 So, long story short, the essence of what you're asking 754 00:36:41.920 --> 00:36:48.360 is that the the Tulip approach is the wrong order theology, 755 00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:52.519 the wrong order of theology. It's reading theology from trying 756 00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:52.719 to do. 757 00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:54.599 It from the vantage point of the divine mind, the 758 00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:56.559 divine decree. But that's not how we do it. 759 00:36:57.440 --> 00:37:01.719 Theology is read first and foremost trying to and Christology wise, 760 00:37:02.440 --> 00:37:06.000 then that leads you to how you would understand saeteriology 761 00:37:06.039 --> 00:37:09.880 and ecclesiology. So if you try to start with the 762 00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:15.199 divine decree, start with uh sateriology, right justification by faith alone, 763 00:37:15.239 --> 00:37:17.559 that's the gospel, it gets all messed. 764 00:37:17.400 --> 00:37:18.239 Up, and then you get people. 765 00:37:18.519 --> 00:37:22.239 Then then down the road your your trinitarian christological stuff's 766 00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.280 all messed up because you have to squeeze Jesus being 767 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:29.039 damned into the presuppositions. 768 00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:29.920 That you have of justification by faith alone. 769 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:33.119 And both of you coming from a Calvinist background, it 770 00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.079 would seem to me there's another big thing missing out 771 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:39.400 of out of this is that you can take the sinner, 772 00:37:40.039 --> 00:37:45.519 and you can forgive the sinner all you want, forgive, forgive, forget, forget, forgive. 773 00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:48.480 That sinner is still going to die. You haven't in 774 00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:50.679 the Calvinist it seems to me, and I could be wrong. 775 00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:53.480 In the Calvinist way of looking at things, you still 776 00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:59.639 haven't dealt with death. And Christ destroyed death so that 777 00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:03.159 the inner still forgiven, who is still having to deal 778 00:38:03.239 --> 00:38:06.039 with the sin in him, the sinful nature and so forth, 779 00:38:06.239 --> 00:38:08.880 could live. And it seems like that that's missing, that 780 00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:13.679 that the the idea that Christ destroyed death. Yeah, that's 781 00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:15.119 missing from Calvinist theology. 782 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:21.039 It's a crucial point because in Calvinist theology, death is 783 00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:26.320 kind of like a necessary it's it's a necessary element 784 00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:29.679 under the divine decree. Right, So it's not the enemy 785 00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:31.559 of God. It's sort of just the tool of God. 786 00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:36.159 And certainly, certainly God's providence covers evil and death, but 787 00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:38.920 it doesn't mean that he positively wills. 788 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:39.159 Or decrees it. 789 00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:42.119 In fact, Scripture says God does not will death. And 790 00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:44.920 you know very well, I's got these different wills. So 791 00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:46.920 he's got one will where it's like he doesn't really 792 00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:49.559 want it, but he's got a secret will where he's 793 00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:50.400 like doing it now. 794 00:38:51.519 --> 00:38:52.159 It's crazy. 795 00:38:52.840 --> 00:38:56.039 Yeah, so this is this is a. 796 00:38:57.639 --> 00:38:58.079 Huge gap. 797 00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:00.719 You're absolutely right, and it ties into the notion that 798 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:03.840 you can be saved and justified and righteous and have 799 00:39:04.039 --> 00:39:07.760 no no actual holiness. Right, that's the That's a weird 800 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:11.320 thing that I actually encountered that in a lot of 801 00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:15.639 the Roman Catholic critiques of Protestantism when I was looking 802 00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:19.880 at Roman Catholicism, because they made a great point. I 803 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:21.440 think it was it was I think it was on 804 00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:25.800 k there's a there's an old book that his X 805 00:39:25.920 --> 00:39:29.000 debate with Luther. It's actually a really good book. I'm no, 806 00:39:29.039 --> 00:39:31.599 I'm not advocating Roman calicism. I'm just saying that k 807 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:33.760 has some really good arguments in that debate with Luther, 808 00:39:34.679 --> 00:39:36.920 and he's and and and some of the topics brought 809 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:40.079 up are things like, well, how can God call somebody 810 00:39:40.199 --> 00:39:42.960 righteous if in fact they're completely wicked? 811 00:39:43.039 --> 00:39:45.599 As you say, Luther, right, you're filthy rags. 812 00:39:45.719 --> 00:39:48.519 Luther was even more radical and depravity than Calvin was 813 00:39:48.519 --> 00:39:51.320 because Luther wrote Bondage of the Will, which is basically 814 00:39:51.480 --> 00:39:53.760 arguing that you can you can't do anything good at all. 815 00:39:54.760 --> 00:39:59.119 He's more radical just on that point than Calvin is. Well, 816 00:39:59.719 --> 00:40:02.440 He's says that you you're a you're a you're an 817 00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:04.000 ass that's either ridden by. 818 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:05.559 God or the devil, but the devil. 819 00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:08.000 Yeah, And that's in that BONDI as the Will book, 820 00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:11.239 and I had a page where I read I read 821 00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:12.599 Luther books. 822 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:14.480 I was really enamored with Luther for maybe a year 823 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:14.800 or two. 824 00:40:15.239 --> 00:40:17.280 I wasn't Lutheran, but I just thought he was an interesting, 825 00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:22.079 you know, bombastic figure. But uh, you know, AQ was 826 00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:24.079 making these points that well, doesn't that make God a liar? 827 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:27.000 How can God call you righteous when in fact you're 828 00:40:27.360 --> 00:40:30.079 evil and God can't lie, So how is that possible? 829 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.960 Oh well, he's just seeing the righteousness of Christ's covering you. 830 00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:36.239 But it's not actually the righteous of Christ. It's actually 831 00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:39.800 just a legal status. And that there's a great point 832 00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:44.480 that I think it's brought up in the Alistair McGrath 833 00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:49.199 Ustisia Day Book, which is that nobody before nominalism in 834 00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:51.440 the Middle Ages and the Reformed, the rise of the 835 00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:57.880 Reformed tradition, they didn't think of a division between what 836 00:40:58.039 --> 00:41:02.039 you called something and it's actual metaphysical status. That's an 837 00:41:02.079 --> 00:41:05.000 actual post Enlightenment Reformation division. 838 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:07.119 In other words, it's. 839 00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.840 Impossible to have that view, that nominalist view prior to 840 00:41:11.599 --> 00:41:13.039 medieval nominalism debates. 841 00:41:13.480 --> 00:41:15.760 So, in other words, nobody in the ancient Midial world. 842 00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:19.599 Including Paul, thought that you could have a purely legal 843 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:23.920 status of righteousness divorced from the actual ontological status of 844 00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:24.679 you being righteous. 845 00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:27.599 And that's a little bit of a philosophical angle on it. 846 00:41:27.719 --> 00:41:29.400 But if that is the case, and I think that 847 00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:33.079 it is, that's also really devastating to the idea that 848 00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:35.920 you can be just before God in a. 849 00:41:36.079 --> 00:41:39.679 Purely nominal legal sense and not in an actual sense. 850 00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:41.679 There wasn't a vision in the world. 851 00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:45.159 And ladies and gentlemen watching this debate sometime in the 852 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:47.760 future of this recording, go back and listen to what 853 00:41:47.880 --> 00:41:48.639 Jay just said. 854 00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:51.960 Listen to that again. That's really something. 855 00:41:53.000 --> 00:41:53.840 Yeah, there's no diventon. 856 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.760 And the same thing goes for sacraments, right the ancient 857 00:41:57.800 --> 00:41:59.920 and medieval world. Now, certainly there were heretics that deny 858 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:03.960 the real presence, but they didn't typically think of this 859 00:42:04.320 --> 00:42:06.199 radical division between. 860 00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:09.400 Sign and signifier. Right. 861 00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:13.519 The same goes for iconography, the image of the icon, 862 00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:15.400 the image of the saint. They didn't think of it 863 00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:18.559 as this radical division of Oh, that's just a purely 864 00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:22.199 token symbol. They thought of it as having in some 865 00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:26.760 sense a real, a real metaphysical connection with the person, 866 00:42:27.000 --> 00:42:29.480 that being the thing. Right, So there might have been 867 00:42:29.519 --> 00:42:32.320 debates about the real presence, but nobody thought about it. 868 00:42:32.440 --> 00:42:36.639 As you know, symbols in the ancient world were not sure. 869 00:42:38.119 --> 00:42:40.840 Dead matter. Does that make sense? 870 00:42:41.239 --> 00:42:43.000 Yeah, well that's what they think of it today, That's 871 00:42:43.039 --> 00:42:44.800 not what they thought of it back then. The word 872 00:42:44.920 --> 00:42:47.920 symbol is radically altered now from what it meant two 873 00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:48.679 thousand years ago. 874 00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:49.119 There you go. 875 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:52.400 Yeah, because you were clashing two things together. 876 00:42:52.559 --> 00:42:53.920 Is that absolute? Yeah? 877 00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:58.599 You so this question here, I got to ask you this. 878 00:42:58.800 --> 00:43:02.760 So Daniel, Daniel MacArthur, if you're listening, he wanted me 879 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:06.239 to ask Jay Dire this when when the opportunity presented itself, 880 00:43:06.360 --> 00:43:11.280 So you're welcome. So basically you touched up on this 881 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:15.719 idea of the Christology, this reformed Christology. Now it's been 882 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:18.480 kind of you know, you know, mutilated in a way. 883 00:43:19.440 --> 00:43:21.199 Can you can you speak more in to that. I 884 00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:24.599 know you referenced you know where that kind of gets 885 00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:26.760 messed up, But it's an it's an important point. 886 00:43:26.920 --> 00:43:29.159 Daniel said. That was something I was very convincing for 887 00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:30.239 him as well. 888 00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:30.880 Back in the day. 889 00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:33.880 You've you've had videos where you've talked about this. But 890 00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:37.519 can you kind of walk through why that Christology issue 891 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:40.719 is such a huge point and and and why it's heretical? 892 00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:45.280 Sure, so I would say I'm not saying that Protestants 893 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:47.639 are intentionally wanting to be an historian. 894 00:43:47.880 --> 00:43:48.119 Sure. 895 00:43:48.360 --> 00:43:50.000 A lot of times when I make this point, though, 896 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:52.920 say I'm not a Nestorian. I don't believe that I'm 897 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.000 not saying that you're intending to be. What I'm saying 898 00:43:55.079 --> 00:43:59.320 is that the logic of the penal substitution position will 899 00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:02.239 take you there if if you're consistent with it, and. 900 00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:08.719 It's pretty clear cut. I think that now some Protestants and. 901 00:44:08.719 --> 00:44:12.639 Evangelicals today, I mean maybe maybe Calvinists are up in 902 00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:14.519 the air today. I'm not sure I did hear that one. 903 00:44:14.920 --> 00:44:17.639 Somebody told me that one of the modern calvin Is 904 00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:20.360 systematic theologians. I don't remember who it was, maybe Robert 905 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:24.559 Raymond or somebody. Somebody supposedly doesn't have the classical Reformation 906 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:27.840 view that that Jesus was damned in our place. 907 00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:30.360 But for the classical. 908 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:35.880 Reformers, even up in two people like j. I. Packer, uh, 909 00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:44.440 Paul Washer teaches it got to do who's the other 910 00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:48.519 the Calvinist Baptist guy that everybody that's super famous always 911 00:44:48.519 --> 00:44:52.280 good blank on his name, John John Piper John Piper 912 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:55.679 teaches hyper teaches that Christ was damned. I'm trying to 913 00:44:55.719 --> 00:44:57.519 think of who the classical guys. 914 00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:59.880 All that's really cool. 915 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.159 You've got the damns himself. I like that one. Boy. 916 00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:06.599 Yeah, Well, I mean they're trying to be consistent because 917 00:45:06.719 --> 00:45:12.920 so you have, you know you have in the Apostles Creed. 918 00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:14.800 I know that's not really an Orthodox church. But in 919 00:45:14.840 --> 00:45:17.719 the West, when Luther or Calvin and these guys, when 920 00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:20.159 they were commenting on Christ's descent into Hades and the 921 00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:24.079 Apostles Creed, they had to give it a new understanding 922 00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:26.880 because unfortunately, even though the Latin Church in the West 923 00:45:26.920 --> 00:45:30.239 at that time they I believe that they had kind 924 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:33.079 of lost the significance of christ discent into Hades, it 925 00:45:33.239 --> 00:45:36.960 was still it was still there in confession, and even 926 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.079 today in the calch Catechism. 927 00:45:38.719 --> 00:45:41.079 It's still there that they professed that Christ has sent 928 00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:42.440 it into the Hades. 929 00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:45.440 But the Reformers, this is a fascinating They gave it 930 00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:48.280 a new spin. They said, well, it's not him actually 931 00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:51.840 going to some place called Hades. What that means is 932 00:45:51.960 --> 00:45:58.960 that on the cross he experienced the reality of the 933 00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:01.199 damn nation enough of all. 934 00:46:01.079 --> 00:46:02.079 The people that he died for. 935 00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:04.840 The logic of that is that if it's going to 936 00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.559 be a full transaction in a legal sense, if he's 937 00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.000 going to pay the debt that I owed he paid. 938 00:46:11.599 --> 00:46:15.679 Hey, you know, I remember that Baptist hmi we used 939 00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:16.519 to sing when I was a kid. 940 00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:19.280 Uh so, right, I mean, if the debt is, if 941 00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:21.840 it's a one to warry, you've got to pay the damnation, 942 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:25.159 which was to me that I then get. 943 00:46:25.199 --> 00:46:29.239 The bank account righteousness put into my bank account. 944 00:46:29.360 --> 00:46:29.440 Right. 945 00:46:29.480 --> 00:46:32.239 That's how it works in the classical Protestant idea. So 946 00:46:32.360 --> 00:46:35.159 it's not just them saying, oh, well, God just forgives 947 00:46:35.199 --> 00:46:37.480 you and transfers the righteous acust to your bank account. 948 00:46:38.039 --> 00:46:41.960 It's on the basis of in most of the classical reformers, 949 00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:46.719 the wrath of the Father being poured out on the son. 950 00:46:48.039 --> 00:46:50.239 So then we have this question in terms of Christology, 951 00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:52.679 which is that, well, if we're going to be orthodox 952 00:46:53.480 --> 00:46:55.800 in our christology, how does that actually work? 953 00:46:55.960 --> 00:47:00.440 Because is it the Father damning the son? And if 954 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:03.920 you believe Ephesus and the Christology that you know comes. 955 00:47:03.719 --> 00:47:06.519 Out of well not just Ephysis but calcil On, then 956 00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:10.159 we know that the subject is a divine person, the 957 00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:14.760 logos is the divine person who's undergoing supposedly this event, 958 00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.400 and that would mean then that the divine person of 959 00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:19.639 the Father is damning the divine person of the Logos 960 00:47:19.679 --> 00:47:20.559 who's incarnate. 961 00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:23.000 So you kind of only have two options there. 962 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:26.920 You can say, well, it's not the father damning the 963 00:47:27.000 --> 00:47:30.679 divine son, it's the damnation of the human nature. 964 00:47:31.320 --> 00:47:33.039 Well, but it's there has to be. 965 00:47:33.159 --> 00:47:33.719 Some one person. 966 00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:36.000 Yeah, you've got to be some subject that is the 967 00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:39.239 recipient of that. It can't just be the human nature 968 00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:41.000 that's damned. It has to be a subject. And so 969 00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:43.519 is that Jesus of Nazareth the historical person. 970 00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:45.119 Well, that would be the story in view that. 971 00:47:46.639 --> 00:47:49.119 The story is sought a dual subject christology, that there 972 00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:53.320 was a human hypostasis Jesus Nazareth, and then there's the 973 00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:56.039 divine hypostasis of the Logos, who was kind of sometimes 974 00:47:56.239 --> 00:47:59.519 present and then sometimes it's the human person sometimes. So 975 00:47:59.599 --> 00:48:02.719 it's this weird dual subject risology and the whole point 976 00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:06.320 of the tokos the word the phrase is, Cyril said, 977 00:48:06.360 --> 00:48:10.000 this completely cuts out the whole idea of there being 978 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:13.440 a dual subject risology. The only subject for all the 979 00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:16.440 incarnate action, Cyril says, is the divine person of the Logos. 980 00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:18.800 That's it. He is a full human nature, but he's 981 00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:20.360 not a human hypostasis or person. 982 00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:23.800 And so if we accept ephicis and that teaching, then 983 00:48:23.840 --> 00:48:27.440 what happened And by the way, Calcton as well, because 984 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:28.719 a lot of people don't know. 985 00:48:28.800 --> 00:48:31.559 People think Leo is the measure of Calciton. That's not 986 00:48:31.639 --> 00:48:34.679 actually true. They measured the tone of. 987 00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:41.239 Leo against Cyril, So Calcedon is actually Kairellion, not primarily 988 00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:45.679 Pope sing Leo. Now, point being, then the other option 989 00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:48.519 is I could say, well, in this transactional event, I 990 00:48:48.679 --> 00:48:52.840 could say that the divine person of the Sun is 991 00:48:52.960 --> 00:48:56.559 the one that's damned. But this presents so many trinitarian 992 00:48:56.679 --> 00:49:02.199 difficulties that it's almost just unimaginable. I mean, first of all, 993 00:49:03.159 --> 00:49:06.159 the persons of the triads share the same will. 994 00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:07.400 There's one will in God. 995 00:49:09.079 --> 00:49:11.880 How could you have one will the person of the 996 00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:15.159 Father setting his will against the son to damn the son, right, 997 00:49:15.360 --> 00:49:18.239 how could you you would We would lose parichoresis, the 998 00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:21.239 divine involve right, the Father and the spirit would no 999 00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:24.000 longer dwell the son if he's damned, because he's a curut. 1000 00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:26.079 So it's just absurd, it would be it would be 1001 00:49:26.119 --> 00:49:26.960 anti trinitarian. 1002 00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:29.400 But that they wouldn't have those teachings to begin with, 1003 00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:33.760 because from Protestants from the Reformation on, think of how 1004 00:49:33.840 --> 00:49:37.199 much they were simply inventing because everything was anti Catholic 1005 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:39.440 at that point. So if the Catholics believe it, we don't, 1006 00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:41.960 then what do we believe? And then they have to 1007 00:49:42.039 --> 00:49:44.320 come up with this kind of stuff as something, because 1008 00:49:44.360 --> 00:49:45.320 what are the people waiting for? 1009 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:48.440 You know, well, if you read Lutheran Calvin, there's always 1010 00:49:48.480 --> 00:49:52.000 this sort of verbal credence given to things like Calcedon 1011 00:49:52.239 --> 00:49:57.360 and so forth. Uh are oddly enough, the Westminster Confession, 1012 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:00.239 if I recall, which is post Calvin, it actually does 1013 00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:05.280 give it gives verbal credence to Christ having uh two 1014 00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.280 wills and two natures, which is the you know fifth 1015 00:50:08.320 --> 00:50:11.920 and six councils explicate that, but you know, the six 1016 00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:16.840 Council goes really deep into two energies, so you know, 1017 00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:19.159 you have to have the essence energy sinction doctrine to 1018 00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:22.760 have two wills and two energy. And to my knowledge, 1019 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.440 there's no Protestant that that have an essence energy sinction doctrin, 1020 00:50:25.480 --> 00:50:28.079 unless it's just people modern people just kind of saying, oh, 1021 00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:28.800 I like that idea. 1022 00:50:29.920 --> 00:50:33.159 Cool, But but Calvin, I think, you know, and then 1023 00:50:33.239 --> 00:50:34.800 I've read the entire institute how to read that? 1024 00:50:34.840 --> 00:50:37.039 For bonds and seminary they measure that the whole thing, 1025 00:50:37.920 --> 00:50:39.880 all fifteen hundred pages of it. And I remember there 1026 00:50:39.920 --> 00:50:42.840 are sections where Calvin's you know, he's like, well, you know, 1027 00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:46.000 we believe in two natures and two wills, and that's 1028 00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:49.280 consistent with Calcedon, and we definitely believe. We don't believe 1029 00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:51.840 Colson is a fallible, but we definitely believe what it teaches. 1030 00:50:52.199 --> 00:50:54.320 But they don't really understand the implications of it. You know, 1031 00:50:54.880 --> 00:50:59.039 it's more than just verbal verbal credence, right right. 1032 00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:01.719 Well, Jay, what do we do with a person comes 1033 00:51:01.760 --> 00:51:07.280 along and says something like, you know, I'm not okay, 1034 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:12.119 I'm not reformed or Calvinist anymore. I'm a Bible believing Christian. 1035 00:51:12.199 --> 00:51:13.679 You know, you have a lot of I'm a Bible 1036 00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:17.079 believing Christian. Read If that's all they are, how do 1037 00:51:17.159 --> 00:51:19.960 you show them that they're no better off from the 1038 00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:21.719 ancient Apostolic Christianity. 1039 00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:26.119 And you've probably encountered a lot of this, right, Oh yeah, yeah, 1040 00:51:26.119 --> 00:51:27.320 I mean there's a lot of a lot of. 1041 00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:32.280 Yeah, right, well, I find it typically the most beneficial 1042 00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:34.360 to go into just saying, well, who do you think 1043 00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:35.239 put the Bible together? 1044 00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:38.000 You know, I mean, did it just happen fall out 1045 00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:38.320 of the sky. 1046 00:51:38.440 --> 00:51:41.159 I mean there's a real historical process to that that 1047 00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:45.239 you can't you can't divorce the divine from the human 1048 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:49.440 in this regard. So just as just as in Christology, 1049 00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.039 for example, I know evangelicals might not know about Christology, 1050 00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:55.599 but for you guys, for orthodox people, like, we know 1051 00:51:55.679 --> 00:51:59.000 there's a synergy in Christ, right, there's a synergism between 1052 00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:01.559 the human nature and the divine nature in Christ. And 1053 00:52:01.639 --> 00:52:05.199 we know there's a synergy in terms of our participation 1054 00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:08.599 in grace. Right, we are always cooperating. Paul says, I'm 1055 00:52:08.599 --> 00:52:11.719 a co operator, co worker with Christ coworker. Yeah, yeah, 1056 00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:14.480 So there's always synergy. It's never gone, it's never lost. 1057 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:18.039 And you know, one of the problems in Calvinism is 1058 00:52:18.079 --> 00:52:21.519 that conversion requires God. 1059 00:52:21.440 --> 00:52:23.280 Stepping in and basically taking over. 1060 00:52:23.360 --> 00:52:27.519 So it's a monargistic view, and if they were consistent, 1061 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:30.000 I think they would also have to be monargists in 1062 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:32.480 terms of Christology as well. So it seems to me 1063 00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:35.559 that they would prefer severus and peer us, you know, 1064 00:52:35.599 --> 00:52:38.320 the people that Maximis in the Church Fathers argued with 1065 00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:41.599 they would be more like a Coptic my Ephicite type 1066 00:52:41.599 --> 00:52:42.039 of position. 1067 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:43.519 If they wanted to really be monogists. 1068 00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:49.199 But for the typically evangelical, I would say, one thing 1069 00:52:49.239 --> 00:52:51.239 I've found really effective is to point out, you know, 1070 00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:53.880 they'll always say, well, we're not saved by our works, bro, 1071 00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:57.719 you can't be saved by works, you know, We're justified 1072 00:52:57.760 --> 00:52:58.639 by faith, not works. 1073 00:52:58.679 --> 00:53:00.880 And I said, well, how does what is Jesus describe 1074 00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:04.239 faith as? And they're like, it's a gift. Yeah, but 1075 00:53:04.320 --> 00:53:06.719 what does he say? He says, this is the work 1076 00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:09.960 of God that you believe on him. So wait a minute, So. 1077 00:53:10.079 --> 00:53:12.920 Faith is actually a work according to Christ of the 1078 00:53:12.920 --> 00:53:16.280 Gospel of John. So it can't be the case that 1079 00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:20.599 no works are necessary, because every evangelical is going to 1080 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:23.400 at least say, well, you do have to believe. 1081 00:53:23.960 --> 00:53:25.880 Wait a minute, doesn't believe something I do. Even if 1082 00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:28.920 you think that it's just a mental notional thing, it's 1083 00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:30.039 still something I gotta do. 1084 00:53:30.599 --> 00:53:33.599 You well, but it's a gift, yeah, but it's still 1085 00:53:33.719 --> 00:53:37.239 it's something I gotta do, right, So they can't totally 1086 00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:41.679 divorce the human element from it at all. And then 1087 00:53:41.719 --> 00:53:45.360 you then I would point out, well, one thing that 1088 00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:47.920 happens in the history of this debate of justification by 1089 00:53:47.960 --> 00:53:52.119 faith alone is that the people who defend it oftentimes. 1090 00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:57.880 Totally disagree amongst themselves as to what it actually means. So, 1091 00:53:58.039 --> 00:54:03.119 for example, does my faith faith in the Atoning. 1092 00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:06.079 Death, row resurrection work of Christ is that if I 1093 00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:07.840 put all my faith in trust in that alone? 1094 00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.159 Is that just the case by faith on? Or as 1095 00:54:10.239 --> 00:54:14.400 many of the classical Reformed actually said and Lutherans do. 1096 00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:17.360 I also have to know and believe in justification by 1097 00:54:17.400 --> 00:54:20.039 faith alone. To be just by by faith alone, you see, 1098 00:54:20.840 --> 00:54:23.719 So you can sort of pile on the difficulties there 1099 00:54:24.079 --> 00:54:29.079 to illustrate that what sounds perhaps as a very clear, 1100 00:54:30.119 --> 00:54:32.480 you know, the persecutive structure that sounds as a very 1101 00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:34.159 clear doctrine, actually isn't that clear? 1102 00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:35.039 What does it actually mean? 1103 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:38.440 And I would point out one other strong point which 1104 00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:40.719 I learned when I was a Catholic, was, you know, 1105 00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:45.320 if you look at Romans, for when Paul cites Genesis, 1106 00:54:46.719 --> 00:54:49.960 and it doesn't matter whether you're a Protestant, Evangelical or 1107 00:54:50.000 --> 00:54:51.159 a Calvinist. 1108 00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:55.280 Abraham's what they call transition from wrath to grace. This 1109 00:54:55.480 --> 00:54:58.920 is the the idea that before you regenerate your God's enemy, 1110 00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:02.480 you're a child of wrath, got hate, right, when you're regenerated. 1111 00:55:02.519 --> 00:55:04.960 That's what they call a transition from wrath to grace. 1112 00:55:05.119 --> 00:55:07.599 Now God loves you, you're the friend of God, your regenerator. 1113 00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:14.239 The transition from wrath to grace in Abraham's life should be, 1114 00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:17.320 if you're a good Protestant, Genesis twelve. 1115 00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:21.000 But I remember noticing it one day when I was 1116 00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:23.920 looking at the Catholic stuff back in twenty or four. 1117 00:55:24.079 --> 00:55:29.199 Actually, Paul cites Genesis fifteen, or the passage supposed to 1118 00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:33.400 be supposedly the ultimate passage, Romans four, you know, defending 1119 00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:36.920 justification by faith alone. Why is Paul citing the wrong chapter? 1120 00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:41.880 Abraham has already done three chapters of righteous works from 1121 00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:46.239 twelve to fifteen. Paul's using the text in fifteen that 1122 00:55:46.280 --> 00:55:48.599 he was justified by faith, he was righteous by faith, 1123 00:55:49.039 --> 00:55:51.679 not Genesis twelve. And that always bugged me because he 1124 00:55:52.079 --> 00:55:55.760 should have cited Genesis twelve. Right, if we're Protestants, but 1125 00:55:56.239 --> 00:55:59.880 if righteousness from God is something that is an actual 1126 00:56:00.679 --> 00:56:03.440 power that we participate with and synergize with. 1127 00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:06.679 Right, and Paul's point, of course, I think we all 1128 00:56:06.760 --> 00:56:09.000 know Paul's point is not that there's no works that 1129 00:56:09.159 --> 00:56:12.159 we do. Paul's point is that the works of. 1130 00:56:12.199 --> 00:56:16.000 The ceremonial law and circumcision didn't make Abraham righteous. 1131 00:56:16.119 --> 00:56:20.000 That's the point of that passage. The mosaic law didn't 1132 00:56:20.079 --> 00:56:22.440 make because if mosaic law was necessary, then how are 1133 00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:23.679 people before mosaic law? 1134 00:56:23.760 --> 00:56:24.000 Rochester. 1135 00:56:24.079 --> 00:56:26.719 That's Paul's point, not that we don't do any works 1136 00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:27.440 at all. Right. 1137 00:56:28.159 --> 00:56:33.679 So, but if the Protestant reading, whether you're Calvinists or evangelical, 1138 00:56:33.800 --> 00:56:38.800 a Romans four is what Romans four is, Paul should 1139 00:56:38.840 --> 00:56:39.880 have sided Genesis twelfth. 1140 00:56:41.280 --> 00:56:45.239 Yeah, facts, yeah, no, good point, good point. 1141 00:56:46.000 --> 00:56:46.239 Wow. 1142 00:56:47.480 --> 00:56:48.320 Well other thing two. 1143 00:56:48.440 --> 00:56:50.119 I would say to one other point. 1144 00:56:50.239 --> 00:56:56.599 You know, when when God speaks, it occurs, it's efficacious. Right, 1145 00:56:57.679 --> 00:57:00.440 God speaks, the world comes to be. And so if 1146 00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:03.719 God speaks, you're righteous. God speaks a word into our hearts. 1147 00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:07.599 The New Testament says, right, it's efficacious. I don't mean 1148 00:57:07.679 --> 00:57:10.280 this in the sense of like irresistible grace, but I'm saying. 1149 00:57:10.760 --> 00:57:14.039 It's not possible for God to say you are righteous 1150 00:57:14.679 --> 00:57:17.840 and you'd be Luther and you not be that right 1151 00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:19.480 because His word is efficacious. 1152 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:28.559 Yeah. Good's stuff. Good stuff. Father. As as we come 1153 00:57:28.599 --> 00:57:30.400 to close, Barther, you how you're about to say something. 1154 00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:33.280 Well, I think we have. 1155 00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:38.840 Kind of one last thing we'd like to ask Jay, 1156 00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:42.960 And this kind of wraps back to the to the 1157 00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.360 first question. So many Protestant videos coming out why you 1158 00:57:46.360 --> 00:57:49.119 should leave Orthodoxy, Why you should become a Protestant. Let's 1159 00:57:49.199 --> 00:57:54.719 turn that around. Why is Eastern Orthodoxy a better alternative 1160 00:57:55.760 --> 00:57:56.559 for Protestants? 1161 00:57:56.639 --> 00:57:59.159 Maybe two or three reasons, Jay, What do you think, right? 1162 00:58:01.679 --> 00:58:06.760 Well, I would say that, you know, between product I 1163 00:58:06.840 --> 00:58:09.000 was raised Evangelical, Baptist. 1164 00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:12.159 And then Calvinists for many years, and then it spent 1165 00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:14.199 about a decade in room with autism. I would say 1166 00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:18.559 that a lot of what both Roman Catholics and Protestants 1167 00:58:18.559 --> 00:58:22.320 and Evangelicals are looking for are's kind of in that 1168 00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:25.360 midway of the Orthodox Church. So a lot of people 1169 00:58:25.400 --> 00:58:29.039 are looking for while I want Bible, but it seems 1170 00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:31.599 to be like just Bible alone doesn't work, right, because 1171 00:58:31.639 --> 00:58:34.400 it's like, ultimately, at the end of the day, if 1172 00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:36.840 you're a Protestant, you might like your pastor you might 1173 00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:41.079 like your community, but they don't really have authority. And 1174 00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:42.519 at the end of the day, it's kind of like 1175 00:58:43.519 --> 00:58:45.599 you and your Bible, right, And that's I mean, I 1176 00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:50.039 know that Protestants recognize that there's an authority that elders have, 1177 00:58:50.199 --> 00:58:53.199 but I'm saying that in terms of the church, I 1178 00:58:53.280 --> 00:58:57.320 think that whole thing is disastrous because there's not a 1179 00:58:57.440 --> 00:59:01.360 body that can actually govern. And one thing I noticed too, 1180 00:59:01.599 --> 00:59:05.079 was that you in the in Poul's epistles, for example, 1181 00:59:05.079 --> 00:59:09.159 of the Corinthians, he says that you should excommunicate the 1182 00:59:09.199 --> 00:59:11.480 people that are really causing these troubles in the church. 1183 00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:14.559 And then if you read the Councils, you know, all 1184 00:59:14.559 --> 00:59:16.480 the way up until the triumph of Orthodoxy in the 1185 00:59:16.519 --> 00:59:21.480 Southern Council and in the Sonoticon, you have the continuation 1186 00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:24.239 of the idea that the church has the authority to excommunicate. 1187 00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:27.119 And if you're a Protestant, I mean, the only time 1188 00:59:27.159 --> 00:59:29.760 I ever encountered a Protestant ever even thinking of ex 1189 00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:33.239 communicating it was in a very small Presbyterian reform group. 1190 00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:34.840 They were the only. 1191 00:59:34.719 --> 00:59:37.440 Protestants I've ever heard. Maybe there's Protestant churches of it, 1192 00:59:37.719 --> 00:59:39.360 and I saw I'm not saying that you should become 1193 00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:44.960 Orthodox because people get ex communicated. It's an indicator of 1194 00:59:45.840 --> 00:59:49.440 the fact that the ecclesiology of Protestism is kind of 1195 00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:51.639 a disaster, and it's kind of a mess, and it 1196 00:59:51.719 --> 00:59:55.760 doesn't really have what we call normative authority and ethics, 1197 00:59:55.800 --> 00:59:59.960 which is the idea that there's somebody that can entern 1198 01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:03.880 and make a decision and buying people right. It doesn't 1199 01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:06.639 necessarily make them infallible or not, you know, Papists or 1200 01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.960 Roman Catholics, but there is a body that has sonodal 1201 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:15.800 authority and their decisions can be made, and ultimately the 1202 01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:18.480 Church as a totality is infallible. I think that's the 1203 01:00:18.599 --> 01:00:21.360 Orthodox position as I understand it, but not necessarily need 1204 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:24.039 an individual. So so the loss of that, I think 1205 01:00:24.960 --> 01:00:27.559 pentecostal guidance of the church. I think you'll find in 1206 01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:32.760 the elements that are missing in Protestantism and that are 1207 01:00:32.840 --> 01:00:36.920 missing even in Catholicism, I think genuinely are are maintained 1208 01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:37.760 in the Orthodox Church. 1209 01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:39.760 So that's one great reason is that probably a lot 1210 01:00:39.800 --> 01:00:42.239 of what people are looking for is there. 1211 01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:45.400 You know, you don't want to give you a false 1212 01:00:45.400 --> 01:00:47.719 impression that there's no problems in the Orthodox Church and 1213 01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:52.440 it's all, you know, green pastures. I think my experience 1214 01:00:52.599 --> 01:00:55.719 that different bodies have different sets of problems, and there's 1215 01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:58.239 some overlap there's going to be we have similar problems 1216 01:00:58.280 --> 01:01:02.039 to other groups, but there are problems unique to Orthodoxy. 1217 01:01:02.079 --> 01:01:05.559 There's problems unique to Rome, there's problems unique to Protestantism. 1218 01:01:05.679 --> 01:01:11.000 But I think that if it's not a systemic problem. 1219 01:01:11.199 --> 01:01:14.840 For example, I would argue that in Roman Catholicism, the 1220 01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:19.639 papacy and what has tried to bind people to infallibly 1221 01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:23.159 and with dogmatic authority, that becomes a systemic level problem 1222 01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:28.159 such that that system kind of can't be rescued or 1223 01:01:28.400 --> 01:01:29.119 it can't function. 1224 01:01:29.199 --> 01:01:32.960 It it doesn't work right. And I would say in Protestantism. 1225 01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:36.119 Because of the nature of the kind of chaotic ecclesiology, 1226 01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:37.079 it also. 1227 01:01:37.400 --> 01:01:40.840 Is a systemic level problem. I don't think Orthodoxy has 1228 01:01:41.039 --> 01:01:45.079 those systemic level problems. It certainly has its problems. 1229 01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:44.800 But. 1230 01:01:46.280 --> 01:01:49.920 Systemic level problems, in my argument, would be enough to 1231 01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:52.519 cancel that out is not a good option basically. So 1232 01:01:53.159 --> 01:01:57.519 I think that beyond those kind of intellectual arguments, you know, 1233 01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:00.880 Orthodoxy is very different. It's going to push you to change, 1234 01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:04.840 it's going to push you to actually, you know, deal 1235 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:08.119 with your sins. You know you're not you're not just 1236 01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:13.159 in your prayer corner mentally, you know, recounting your sins 1237 01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:17.239 with you in the Bible. You're going to be going 1238 01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:20.760 through a kind of a healing I like Father Deacon, 1239 01:02:20.880 --> 01:02:25.360 doctoronisis analogy or it's act like rehab. It's all go 1240 01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:28.000 into rehab and we've got to keep going back and 1241 01:02:28.119 --> 01:02:31.239 working on uh, you know because throughout the week we relapse, 1242 01:02:31.519 --> 01:02:33.599 right like people who have addictions relapse, So well, you 1243 01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:35.000 got to go back, you gotta keep working at it. 1244 01:02:35.079 --> 01:02:38.280 So that's very different than anything I experienced in Protestantism 1245 01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:41.960 and even roby Tholicism. In my experience is the you know, 1246 01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:44.360 when you go to confession, it's it's just very mechanical. 1247 01:02:45.639 --> 01:02:49.760 It's very oh, here's my sins, Okay, here's your five 1248 01:02:50.239 --> 01:02:53.320 helm mares. And then it's like I might go to 1249 01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:56.000 another priest and it's that he doesn't even know, right. 1250 01:02:56.119 --> 01:03:00.159 But in Orthodox it's different because my case maybe any 1251 01:03:00.199 --> 01:03:02.920 other cases, I don't know everybody's case, but you're typically 1252 01:03:03.000 --> 01:03:06.679 confessing to a spiritual father who is tracking and knowing 1253 01:03:06.760 --> 01:03:10.639 your progress, and so he knows the medicine that you need. 1254 01:03:11.280 --> 01:03:14.960 And that's why that mechanical system doesn't really work. I 1255 01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.719 don't think if it's just a I'm here to pay 1256 01:03:17.800 --> 01:03:19.440 my hail Mary debt and let me go back to 1257 01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:19.639 do it. 1258 01:03:20.800 --> 01:03:22.239 No, it's like no, you okay, so. 1259 01:03:22.400 --> 01:03:26.440 You're you got this problem. Maybe you need to you know, 1260 01:03:26.960 --> 01:03:29.880 maybe you have a problem with greed. Maybe you need 1261 01:03:29.960 --> 01:03:32.440 to be more magnanimous this next week. You need to 1262 01:03:32.840 --> 01:03:34.880 give some more money if you're greeding. Oh you got 1263 01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:37.280 a problem with eating too much? Maybe you need to fact. 1264 01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:39.559 You see what I'm saying that there's a the medicine 1265 01:03:39.599 --> 01:03:42.480 is applied to the difficulty, and that that's. 1266 01:03:42.360 --> 01:03:46.960 Not anything I ever experienced in other groups. So I 1267 01:03:47.079 --> 01:03:50.000 actually think that deep down we all kind of want 1268 01:03:50.039 --> 01:03:50.519 to be healed. 1269 01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:53.440 Right, I don't know it an Orthodox building has that 1270 01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:56.079 healing medicine facts facts. 1271 01:03:57.679 --> 01:04:00.199 Amen, No, that's that's facts, like it is like, uh 1272 01:04:00.559 --> 01:04:00.960 but I. 1273 01:04:00.960 --> 01:04:02.480 Mean it's it's hard. I mean it's tough. I mean 1274 01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:04.320 I'm trying to scare people, but like, you know, it's 1275 01:04:04.400 --> 01:04:04.920 it's going to be. 1276 01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:10.880 It's not the Christian Marines in Protestism. It's really intellectual. 1277 01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:12.440 You can read a lot of books and argue a 1278 01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:17.679 lot and you're not challenged to work on your vices, 1279 01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:18.320 you know what I mean. 1280 01:04:18.400 --> 01:04:19.400 That's it's just different. 1281 01:04:20.119 --> 01:04:22.960 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I say, I say all the time 1282 01:04:23.079 --> 01:04:26.199 like it. You know, Orthodoxy is almost like the Christian Marines. 1283 01:04:25.800 --> 01:04:26.159 In a way. 1284 01:04:26.360 --> 01:04:28.239 You know, there you go exactly. 1285 01:04:30.239 --> 01:04:32.599 But before we close, I do want to ask you 1286 01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:36.239 a lighthearted question, really a real quick one here. So 1287 01:04:36.360 --> 01:04:38.880 I know before, like off air, we were talking about 1288 01:04:39.000 --> 01:04:41.000 like how you know I connected with you know, we 1289 01:04:41.119 --> 01:04:43.199 talked on discord a little bit. Now I know you 1290 01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:47.599 you've had things on Discord, You've had open dialogue and 1291 01:04:47.719 --> 01:04:50.039 things like that. There was a time where Deacon and 1292 01:04:50.159 --> 01:04:54.400 and I is father Deacon was debating Matt Slick and 1293 01:04:55.599 --> 01:05:02.320 you called that Slick a goblet, which is like hilarious. 1294 01:05:02.119 --> 01:05:04.519 Of our pret going sorry, go ahead, are good? 1295 01:05:04.519 --> 01:05:07.639 You could you called? Uh, you called Maslick a goblin? 1296 01:05:07.840 --> 01:05:09.639 Did you know that that was going to become a 1297 01:05:09.760 --> 01:05:11.639 music video? No. 1298 01:05:12.599 --> 01:05:15.000 I think that he's a really nasty person that I've 1299 01:05:15.039 --> 01:05:17.079 had a lot of nasty interactions with in the past, 1300 01:05:17.239 --> 01:05:19.679 and so I think people clip that and they think that, oh, 1301 01:05:19.719 --> 01:05:22.239 you just like randomly wanted to call him names. Now, 1302 01:05:22.280 --> 01:05:24.760 there's a long history of of he would come on 1303 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:26.920 the discord and we would he would just be really 1304 01:05:26.960 --> 01:05:29.000 really nasty, and we ended up having to just cut 1305 01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:30.639 off all the communications with that guy. 1306 01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:34.400 And there was supposed to be that day, there. 1307 01:05:34.360 --> 01:05:36.559 Was supposed to be a debate between doctor father diggon 1308 01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:41.719 Doctor and Ias, a guy named Darth Dawkins and somebody else, 1309 01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:44.599 and then they brought Maslick on and so it kind 1310 01:05:44.639 --> 01:05:47.400 of surprised everybody that it didn't end up being the 1311 01:05:47.440 --> 01:05:48.559 debate that everybody. 1312 01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:51.679 Thought it would be. And so, uh, no, I just 1313 01:05:51.840 --> 01:05:54.480 I just I think he's a pretty nasty person. And 1314 01:05:54.599 --> 01:05:58.719 I don't have the view that we should always never 1315 01:05:59.119 --> 01:06:00.960 call people for what they are. 1316 01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:03.920 I mean, maybe maybe I'm wrong about that. I can 1317 01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:07.159 be corrected, But no, I didn't. I didn't have no idea. 1318 01:06:07.239 --> 01:06:09.559 What was I don't even know who makes a lot 1319 01:06:09.639 --> 01:06:13.480 of those You ever heard the God I'm saying, I 1320 01:06:13.480 --> 01:06:15.199 don't I've heard it. I'm saying I don't know who, 1321 01:06:15.320 --> 01:06:16.960 Like I don't know who these who who made that? 1322 01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:20.679 No idea? So people just you know, kind of clip stuff. 1323 01:06:22.559 --> 01:06:23.119 Good stuff. 1324 01:06:23.199 --> 01:06:23.360 Man. 1325 01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:29.760 Well, well thanks for addressing Calvinism, Protestant Protestantism. 1326 01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:31.800 And and just really great questions. 1327 01:06:32.519 --> 01:06:33.000 Thank you, Ja. 1328 01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:44.599 We've got a message that we want to get out, 1329 01:06:44.639 --> 01:06:46.559 and we wanted we got a message about the faith 1330 01:06:46.599 --> 01:06:50.239 and the church, and and uh, we're not hard people 1331 01:06:50.320 --> 01:06:52.599 to get to know. This is not a hard faith 1332 01:06:52.719 --> 01:06:56.440 to get to know. We are opening, open and welcoming, 1333 01:06:56.599 --> 01:06:59.559 and uh we want people to to engage with us, 1334 01:06:59.639 --> 01:07:02.599 and that in many different areas, at many different levels. 1335 01:07:02.719 --> 01:07:05.039 So thank you for coming on. We really appreciate that. 1336 01:07:05.440 --> 01:07:07.440 Absolutely, thank you. And yeah, I agree with that. 1337 01:07:07.719 --> 01:07:12.719 Not everybody needs to hear, you know, a detailed reputation 1338 01:07:12.840 --> 01:07:15.199 of Tula, but some people do, all right, some people 1339 01:07:15.239 --> 01:07:15.639 do need that. 1340 01:07:16.840 --> 01:07:18.360 No, we had a good interaction here. 1341 01:07:18.599 --> 01:07:22.119 I'm very grateful Luther, Thank you, Jay, Thank you ladies 1342 01:07:22.119 --> 01:07:25.239 and gentlemen who are watching this, Thank you, and subscribe 1343 01:07:25.719 --> 01:07:29.159 so that you can be notified of future videos coming out. 1344 01:07:29.239 --> 01:07:33.280 And we're aiming to provide quality content and really good 1345 01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:36.840 engagement on issues about our faith, about our culture, and 1346 01:07:37.599 --> 01:07:40.719 so much more. So subscribe to The Transfigured Life, and 1347 01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:41.840 thank you again for watching. 1348 01:07:44.079 --> 01:07:46.760 Take care, y'all, have a great day. Thank you so much. 1349 01:07:49.159 --> 01:07:49.400 Thanks. 1350 01:07:49.440 --> 01:07:53.119 You are not in a turk in your own excuse me, 1351 01:07:53.320 --> 01:07:56.960 you're just making an assumption that all the saints agree 1352 01:07:57.400 --> 01:07:58.639 they do. 1353 01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:02.199 Go read them no thing. You're a scholarly, a demon, 1354 01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:05.719 a boomer, part part a demon. 1355 01:08:05.679 --> 01:08:09.719 A boomer making an assumption, and even a boomer part 1356 01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:11.039 an excuse, excuse me? 1357 01:08:11.320 --> 01:08:15.320 A demon, a boomer part part You're acholarly, even a 1358 01:08:15.400 --> 01:08:16.279 boomer part. 1359 01:08:16.119 --> 01:08:21.359 Of an even a boomer part an excuse me, even 1360 01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:25.680 a boomer part part even a boomer. 1361 01:08:25.760 --> 01:08:26.640 Making an assumptuous? 1362 01:08:26.800 --> 01:08:29.199 Are all the councils inspired at an errant? 1363 01:08:30.880 --> 01:08:36.079 The ecumenicals th idea so there ecumenical sentence are inspired 1364 01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:36.800 in an errant? 1365 01:08:37.279 --> 01:08:37.680 Correct