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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome to the Transfigured Life. We have a

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special guest here in the building. I'm always here rocking

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with Father Jonathan. And as you guys can see, here

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we have the comedian, the apologist, the gifted one here,

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Jay Dyer.

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Speaker 2: Give it up for Jay Dyer.

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Speaker 3: How you doing, Jay, I'm doing great, man. Thanks for

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having me here. I'm glad to be here. It's honored

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to talk to you guys. Appreciate it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, our pleasure and our honor. Thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Jay.

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Speaker 4: We're going to kind of get right into it, and

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I want to begin by by by asking you a question. Undoubtedly,

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if you've been watching YouTube for a while, and I

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think you have, and if you've been watching Orthodox apology

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I think you have, can't fail to notice that there's

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been an abundance of podcasts and videos out there now

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by Protestants and especially Reform Protestants, Evangelicals, Baptists that are

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attacking the Orthodox faith and church. You know, I recently

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heard some Presbyterian church out west even deny that we

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the Orthodox, have Apostolic succession. And so I'm sure you've

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heard some of these, But what do you make of

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what do you think of that, we're seeing more and

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more of them now.

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Speaker 3: I think one reason that we're seeing that is just

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everybody's got a podcast now. My wife and I were

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joking about this, like every like every people's grandmothers are

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going to start having podcasts soon ago. Literally everybody has

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a podcast, and I think every pastor now has a podcast.

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Speaker 5: So that's part of it.

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Speaker 3: But I also think that there's a realization that there's

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a lot of problems in the religious world, especially if

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you come from a Protestant or Roman Catholic background.

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Speaker 5: I mean, that's not to say there's no.

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Speaker 3: Problems in the Orthodox world, but every group kind of

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has its own youth unique problems, and so I think

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that a lot of people are sensing that questions are

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being asked that are very difficult. A lot of times

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Protestant pastors might not have the answers to these kinds

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of questions, and so they're going online, they're seeking out answers,

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and they're feeling the need to have to address why

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people are converting. A lot of people are converting out

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of Protestantism, some to run Catholicism. But I think actually

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in the last three or four years, more to Orthodoxy.

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So I think there's a need to try to explain this,

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to say, hey, don't leave. You know, they've got problems too,

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and Protestanism can be defended. I don't think ultimately that

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it can, but I think that's the reason is that

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a lot of people are looking for more than what

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they're getting at Protestant churches. So they're seeing a lot

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of you know, rainbow flags going up at Protestant churches,

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and that's making a lot of people, you know, dissatisfy.

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Speaker 5: This is not what you know historic Christianity is. So

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this is on the one.

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Speaker 3: Hand of search for authentic historic Christianity, there's a search

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for wanting to be you know, consistent with what the

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Bible actually teaches in terms of morals and that kind

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of stuff. People are craving that they don't want this, uh,

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water down stuff. And even even in the conservative Protestant world,

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I think there's a lot of unanswered questions when it

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comes to the challenges that Orthodoxy and Catholicism are presenting,

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but more so Orthodoxy, because I think a lot of

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people are seeing, you know, really systematic level problems in

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the Roman Catholic world that perhaps Orthodoxy might have the answer.

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Speaker 4: To that's good, Luthor. Both you and Jay came out

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of that Milio. If you and I know you probably

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have different issues that you could point to. But Jay,

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what do you think are the man? What do you

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think are the two or three biggest issues that are

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bringing people over?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you got a lot of a lot of people

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coming out of the you know, the Protestant world.

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Speaker 2: So what do you think is that that reason?

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Speaker 3: Probably the biggest let me see, the biggest two issues

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in the Protestant world would be and I don't know

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if there are in any specific order, just the ones

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that come to mind that I hear the most are

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questions like, well, you know, solar scriptura, which is really

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the essence of classical Protestantism. And it really doesn't matter

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what form you want to give to solar scriptura.

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Speaker 5: I know that there's different.

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Speaker 3: Versions of a different apologists that give different levels of

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a different.

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Speaker 5: Protestant apologists will recognize.

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Speaker 3: Some kind of place for tradition, perhaps maybe even all

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the way up to High Church Anglicans can concede maybe

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the most reverence for traditions supposedly, but I think there's

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still a recognition that there's big heaping questions of ahistoricity. Right,

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the Protestant position is not historical, especially when we come

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to the formation of the Canon, when it comes to

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how the Bible came to be, when it comes to

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the actual practice of the church in first six seventh century,

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is the way that it operated with liturgy or you know,

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teaching profession of the faith in the liturgy and not

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so much people having to go and read the Bible

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on their own.

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Speaker 5: To figure it all out.

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Speaker 3: When when people start to realize that, when they see

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what's in the ecumenical councils and the canons and even

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the earliest councils you know, prior to Iicea and Caira, Gangra,

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you know, you see these so called Catholic and I

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say that is in the sense of orthodox Catholic elements.

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People are seeing that and realizing that, you know, this

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is this, this isn't Protestantism. So I think that's probably

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the biggest And then number two might be.

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Speaker 5: Questions that they have about.

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Speaker 3: The morals changing in the in the world of Protestanism,

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and again that that doesn't necessarily go for the conservative

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Protestant evangelical groups. But I think in the Protestant world,

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like the I mean, I don't know the numbers per se,

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but most, you know, all the mainline Protestant nominations in

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the US they pretty much liberal in the.

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Speaker 5: Nineteen twenties and thirties. Uh.

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Speaker 3: And by that I mean not just you know, caving

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into higher critical textual scholarship, but also morals. They began

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to cave on moral questions and issues. And so I

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think that those are probably the two biggest ones, you know,

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the history of the church, the Bible, soul, scriptura.

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Speaker 5: And then I think there's other issues too.

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Speaker 3: Like this debate world you know that pops up on

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in the internet. You know, Yeah, there's a lot there's

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a lot of you know, great chats and discussions and

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debates going on that. H that's probably a big factor

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as well.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I agree, Yeah, yeah, there's definitely definitely a bigger

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debate will happen out there.

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Speaker 2: I see that.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, real quick, I noticed. I don't even know

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this until a few days ago.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 5: And obviously I'm not I'm not a.

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Speaker 3: Huge fan of TikTok because it's you know, obviously it's

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a Chinese sort of surveillance app. But I am on

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there just to put out clips and stuff. And I

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didn't realize that I could go live on there until

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fairly recently, because you've got to.

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Speaker 5: Hit a certain tier of subscribers or something.

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Speaker 3: But I went live on TikTok and turns out there's

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this giant world over there that's different from you know,

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YouTube and these other places. There's there's just masses of

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Protestants over there. Calviunists are arguing and going crazy. Muslims

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are going crazy on TikTok. So I've kind of stepped

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into that whole other.

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Speaker 5: Mess of getting on TikTok.

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Speaker 3: And but that's a whole nother, you know field for potential,

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you know, new audiences, and TikTok tends to be a

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lot of twenty five are really young people over there

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as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, kids are always dancing on TikTok and stuff like that.

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Speaker 3: Now, but now there's a whole debate world because they

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have live streams, so you can live stream for you know,

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long long form on TikTok.

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Speaker 5: Now, so there's always people debating over there.

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Speaker 6: Oh my gosh, well fascinating.

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Speaker 1: Well let's let's dive into some calvinism. I know that

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you you yourself used to be a Calvinist. I was

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a Calvinist as well. You know what what led you

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specifically out of that? Jay, What are some of the

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issues that you started to see with it? What was

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your progression out of that.

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Speaker 5: I'm curious that Father Johnathan, did you have a background Protestant?

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Did you convert or were you raise Orthodox?

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Speaker 6: Well?

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Speaker 4: I was theoretically I'm a cradle but when I was

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a when I was in high school around tenth grade,

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I started going to a Presbyterian church and attending their

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Bible studies and their youth pastors. I have to give

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them a lot of credit. They they taught me Bible,

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you know, they really did, and that that has literally

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stayed with me for fifty years.

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Speaker 6: A lot of what I learned there.

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Speaker 4: But they didn't teach a lot of theology. It was

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here's what the Bible says, and you know we we

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kind of read it and read it and read it

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and kind of memorized it. So I didn't learn a

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lot of theology. So I have to say, I don't

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really come from that kind of a background.

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Speaker 6: That experience.

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Speaker 1: My experience Joy goes well that that background and not

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all Calvinists, right, We're not saying this all calvin but

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it's definitely like a debate world for real. When it

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came to that realm, it's like you weren't Calvinists enough

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at times, you.

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Speaker 5: Know, yeah right, yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 3: Like so I got into that when I was about nineteen.

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I got into reading scriptures from an evangelical Bible study

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I was invited to when I was eighteen, and then

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kind of eventually wandered my way into reform Baptist stuff,

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like you said, because I went to a Reform Baptist

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Bible College for a.

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Speaker 5: While and there everybody, you know, all the young guys.

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Speaker 3: All we did was just kind of, you know, talk

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about church history and biblical theology all the time, and

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so we would get into these debates about well, you know,

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what about you know, the church fathers, they taught this

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and that. And I remember there was a really formative

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situation where I ended up stuck at Bible College throughout

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the whole winter break. And so now everybody else left

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and I was stuck there for the whole you know,

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three or four weeks or whatever it was, and I

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didn't have anything else to do. So I decided I

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was going to read The City of God. So I

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read from the beginning all the way up until about

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page nine hundred, and I wrote down all these I

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wrote down all these questions because there was nothing else

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to do.

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Speaker 5: It's just me and in Louisville, sitting there by my well,

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and I didn't know anybody. So I just read that

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the whole time, and I wrote all these questions.

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Speaker 3: And I took him to a couple of the of

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the professors, a couple of them are still pretty still

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teaching Baptist Bible College stuff. And I said, here's all

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these questions. I said, I don't understand how we could believe that.

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You know, we like Augustine, if you know, he's got

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all these things that we think are just you know.

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Speaker 5: Catholic crazy accretions.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't get very good answers, so I'll just

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leave it at that. But eventually they said, well, you

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might need to leave this this Bible college.

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Speaker 5: This might not be for you. So I didn't.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't ready for any changes at that time. But

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at that time I was more so thinking, I'm I

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think I believe in an infant bat Baptism. I think

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I believe in pedo Baptism, and I was reading a

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bunch of reform stuff from Bonson and rush Juni and

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Van Till and all those people. And so I found

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a PCA church at that time that I liked, which

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is the Conservative Presbyterians, and met one of the elders there,

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got to be kind of friendly with him, and we

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He introduced me to a lot of stuff that ironically

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would later point me in the direction out of out

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of Protestantism. And so in some of the circles of Presbyterians,

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there was a movement back then that's now kind of

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attached to Doug Wilson's stuff, which is kind of people

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looking into high church, you know, liturgy and that kind

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of stuff in the in the Protestant reform world. So

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I was kind of introduced to these questions at that time,

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but I still wasn't ready.

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Speaker 5: I remember, I'll try to make this short and don't

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want to ramble a whole time, but.

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Speaker 3: I met with some Catholic priests just out of curiosity,

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because I wanted to know, well, what do you guys

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teach about, you know, Augustine and Grace and all this stuff.

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And I remember having you know, one on ones with

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several Catholic priests, and they said, well, here's the Catholic

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Catechist them and I remember getting that, and I remember

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reading through about half of it, and I was like, now,

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I don't believe a lot.

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Speaker 5: Of this stuff. This stuff's crazy. So I wasn't ready for.

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Speaker 3: You know, Mary and stuff, and I thought all that

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was out there and wild. So but I did have

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a gradual movement towards reading more and more Church Fathers,

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and so for me at that time, it was really

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just I.

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Speaker 5: Didn't know about Orthodoxy yet.

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Speaker 3: This was like, this is about two thousand and one,

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and so I bought the Church Fathers, the Schaft set,

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and I was like, well, I guess I'm gonna have

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to start reading this. So I started reading Jerome, and

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I started reading Ambrose, and I started reading Cyprian, Saint Cyprian,

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and I started noticing, well, they don't.

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Speaker 5: Teach anything like what we teach. So I was at

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a crossroads.

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Speaker 3: And all I knew about at that time in two

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thousand and three ish, the only things on the Internet

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that you could ever find were Romechalic stuff and like

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Calvinist Protestants everything that that was the debate at that time, right,

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all the blogs, all the stuff, all the forums. You know,

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you would just see people debating on blogs and websites

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and forums back and forth. So I just thought that

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that was the extent of the debate. I didn't even

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know about Orthodoxy except for I'd heard there was a

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book by you know callistos Ware about Orthodox Church, but

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I didn't have it, so I just didn't think anything

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about it. Plus I didn't live with anywhere near an

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Orthodox church. So that was probably the hardest decision for

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me actually in my life at that time, because I

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was really I mean I was a huge student of

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Bonson van til rush JUNI I did a semester at Bonson's.

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There used to be think of Bonson seminary, So I

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was learning apologetics from doctor Bonnson.

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Speaker 5: Like father father Johnathan.

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Speaker 3: Said, you know, we were just like I mean, it

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was just Bible NonStop. I mean, we we were like

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temultic Jews with the Bible. I mean like we were

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just studying it NonStop. I mean we would have h

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we'd have morning Bible before church church was like two

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hours of lectures from Bible. We would have Sunday night

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Bible study and then we would have Winnesday and Friday

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meetings to read, you know, reform theologians. It was crazy

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because if you don't, I don't know if you guys know,

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but like in the Bons and Russian stuff, like, they

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were theonomists, So they have this very high view of

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Biblical law, and so there's a lot of you know,

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emphasis on what relevance you know, the Torah has for today.

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Now they're not messianic news or anything like that, but

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they just have this view that a lot of those

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laws are applicable to to today.

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Speaker 5: So, you know, it was it was.

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Speaker 3: Really difficult to move away from that because I was

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still wedded to it.

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Speaker 5: But one of the things that really stuck with me.

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Speaker 3: Was when I read Russiani's book called Foundations of Social

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Order and there was a chapter on the Ecumenical Councils,

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and so rush Janey ironically had this high view of

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the ecumenical councils. And I was starting to read The

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Church Fathers at that time, and I had read Cyril

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and I'd read Ethesis, so I knew kind of what

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it was all about. And then rush Janis take and

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Foundtions of Social Order was actually that.

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Speaker 5: He thought, I'm not joking, he's he thinks that Cyril's.

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Speaker 3: Position is in the storis disposition, and so rushing you

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got it completely backwards. And that really shook me at

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the time, and I just I didn't know what to do.

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I took that to my reform pastor and said, hey,

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this is this is totally backwards.

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Speaker 5: I mean, how could he mess up that? You know

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that big?

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Speaker 3: And well we're all fallible, Yeah, we're all fallible, but

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I mean that's a pretty big mistake if we're going

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to be saying why we're not why we're reformed. So

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then I decided it was going to be an issue

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of not so much this church father versus that church father.

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Speaker 5: What's the root of Protestantism.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's it's ultimately, if you're a classical Protestant, it's

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Bible alone.

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Speaker 5: It's sole scripture, that's the ultimate primary authority.

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Speaker 3: So I figured out I'm going to have to answer

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this question of how did the canon come to be?

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And I listened to tons and tons of Roman Catholic

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and reform debates. I went back and be forth, and

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at that time it was all you know, James White

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debating athletics, and it was Jerrymagticks debating Bonnson, and you know,

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reform to Catholic debates was about the extent of all

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you could find.

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Speaker 5: And I went through all those and then I just

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said the best way to do this would be to read.

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Speaker 3: A bunch of the Protestant evangelical scholars on the history

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of the formation of the Cannon.

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Speaker 5: And so I read F. F.

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Speaker 3: Bruce's book, and I read Lee McDonald's book their Evangelical scholars,

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and here they are admitting, oh, yeah, of course tradition

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plays a key role.

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Speaker 5: In the Bible. Coming to me and I'm like, what

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so again?

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Speaker 3: And you and you know, you take these questions to

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your Protestant pastors and well, you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 5: I've never read that. Yeah, I haven't looked at that, but.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure we can find somebody that knows. And then

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they'll refer you to, you know, some professor at Reformed

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Theological Seminary or Westminster or whatever. And you know, I

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just never really got good answers, and so I decided

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I would have to be Roman Catholic. So that led

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me to the Roman Catholic world still didn't know about Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 5: When when I bought the church.

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Speaker 3: Father said, I just assumed that the Western church fathers

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had it all right, right, So I just started reading Jerome,

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and I started reading you know, Ambrose and Cyprian and Augustine,

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and I just thought, oh, well, Chris System and you know,

360
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he might be all right. And Cappadocians maybe they're cool,

361
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but there's no pressing need for me to read them.

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We all believe in the Trinity, right, I mean, they

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were defending the Trinity. Why do we need to We

364
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don't need to rehash that debate. Yeah, So long story short, Yeah,

365
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went I went in that direction. I left the Reformed Church.

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I started attending a local Catholic church in two thousand

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and three, went through what they call Catechumen r CIA,

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and UH spent.

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Speaker 5: About ten ten years in the Roman Catholic world.

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Speaker 3: UH got really serious about attending the traditional Latin Mass.

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Speaker 5: Did that for many, many.

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Speaker 3: Years, drove for two hours for probably five or six

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years to do that in Memphis or nashvillecause the only

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place that would have the Latin masks that I could

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go to.

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Speaker 1: UH.

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Speaker 3: And then I and then I got to this point

378
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where it was like I was so immersed in church

379
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history I got really into Tonism and all that, and

380
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it was like, well, what am I going to do

381
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with pre post Vatican two. Long story short, that got

382
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me looking at the Orthodox question. I encountered Orthodox blogs

383
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in two thousand and six for the first time. I

384
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wasn't ready to convert, but I would hash it out.

385
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I'd argue with all these different people that were online

386
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the Orthodox world at that time. Yeah, and so that

387
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kind of led me just to start reading Eastern Fathers,

388
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and that took me another ten years. I wasn't ready to,

389
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you know, because I mean I obviously think, well, maybe

390
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you're just unstable and you're just converting to one thing

391
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of the next. I would actually take long periods of time, right,

392
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I was Ronancallay for about ten years, and it took

393
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me another ten years before I decided that I would

394
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go into Orthodoxy. I mean I held off for a

395
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really long time. I say, I have the longest catecub

396
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in it, like I intentionally I was a ten year category.

397
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Speaker 5: So I held off for a long times.

398
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Speaker 3: Anyway, I'm sorry, I'm going to keep talking about myself.

399
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It's just kind of rambling and weird. But long story short, Yeah,

400
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I just I felt like ultimately, for me at the

401
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end of the day, the main issue of what led

402
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me out of Protestantism was looking into the cannon. It's

403
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historical formation, the reliance on church tradition for not just canonicity,

404
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but even things like absolutely authorship.

405
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Speaker 5: That's those are things that we.

406
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Speaker 3: Don't I'm the gospels, they don't name them their author

407
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in a case of like Matthew, right, I mean, and

408
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even if it says Matthew, well, there's other gospels that

409
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are false gospels you know that we don't accept. Why

410
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don't we accept them? So you can't take it just

411
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because the name, Oh this was the Gospel of Thomas, Right, Well,

412
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that's anot we don't want that one.

413
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Speaker 5: Well how do we what do we adjudge between? Right?

414
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Speaker 3: So yeah, more I got into the church history, more,

415
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I got into the Church fathers. More I realized that, well,

416
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it just can't be Protestantism. And I was also, you know,

417
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still really into the Bible the whole time, so I

418
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would always be encountering passages that didn't fit with the

419
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system that I had. So if you've got this solo

420
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feed a justication by faith alone, you know, Calvinist, you know,

421
00:19:48,039 --> 00:19:51,200
tulip system, You've got all these problem texts that you're

422
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kind of have to deal with, and over time, more

423
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and more of those problem texts just really started mounting up,

424
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and I didn't find the answers really sufficient. But the

425
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biggest things actually in terms of specifically Calvinism, and what

426
00:20:04,039 --> 00:20:07,279
I would say is just really ultimately the errors of

427
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a lot of Latin theology period, would be the questions

428
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of absolute divine simplicity and the energies and the issues

429
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of Christology. Because once I realized that Calvinist Christology, even

430
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though they don't intend it to be a lot of times,

431
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it actually is a Nestorian Christology. So you can take

432
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it in two directions. You can go to an historian and

433
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you can say that the subject who was punished on

434
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the cross by the Father is a human subject, Jesus

435
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of Nazareth, which would be an historian option, or you

436
00:20:39,759 --> 00:20:42,079
could say that the son was damned by the Father,

437
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which it would be an Arian option because that would

438
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mean the Trinity is no longer you know one.

439
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Speaker 5: So all those are the only two options if you

440
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believe the.

441
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Speaker 3: Classical Protestant doctrine of the son being punished.

442
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Speaker 5: As you know, the payment for the sins of penal

443
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substitutionary atonement, right exactly.

444
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 4: You mentioned what what must be a beautiful a doctrine.

445
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You mentioned what must be a beautiful teaching and it

446
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,079
must be a beautiful thing because it's named after a flower, tulip.

447
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,279
I think you mentioned that a moment ago, and and

448
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Luther and I were kind of anxious to talk to

449
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you about that, but you said something and I really

450
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want to follow up with you on that, and uh

451
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and and that is we were talking about the the

452
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the the incredible explosion and growth of videos against Orthodoxy.

453
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But at the same time, they're a lot of Protestants

454
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and certainly a lot of Calvinists, they're encountering the Fathers,

455
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in some cases for the first time, and they're having

456
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to to grapple and deal with things. And they're there,

457
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and I've spoken with some of them privately and it's

458
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they don't want me to quote them, but I mean,

459
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what they're saying privately about what they're what they're wrestling

460
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over is is profound. Do you see a change in

461
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Protestantism in general because of this? And I think the

462
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encounter maybe goes back only maybe twenty years when when

463
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,400
when this started to get very serious?

464
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Speaker 6: Do you see that? I see it?

465
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Speaker 4: But I mean I'm wondering what you see in your

466
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encounters and talking with people. I'm starting to hear them

467
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talk about real presence. I'm talking they're starting to see

468
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,160
to Pio baptism and things like that, and it's like,

469
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oh my god, this is what you guys abhored thirty

470
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years ago. And now you're you're actually saying there must

471
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be something to a Jay Dyer.

472
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,079
Speaker 6: What do you think? What do you say?

473
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 5: Absolutely? Yeah?

474
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 3: I mean, like I said, so, you know, twenty years ago,

475
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,000
maybe two thousand and two or three, the Presbyterians, the PCA,

476
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,000
and some of the OPC people had what they call

477
00:22:40,039 --> 00:22:44,240
the Auburn Avenue Conference, and that was a lot of

478
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,240
these guys at that time dealing with grappling with the

479
00:22:47,279 --> 00:22:49,759
things that you're talking about. And so a lot of

480
00:22:49,759 --> 00:22:52,720
them were reading Schmaman Feathers, Schiemann's books. They were reading

481
00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:57,799
books that dealt with liturgical theology. Peterliheart, James Jordan, That's

482
00:22:57,799 --> 00:22:59,920
the people I'm talking about, and they're realizing that, hey,

483
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,880
there's actually a lot of liturgy in the Bible. There's

484
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,799
actually a lot of symbolism that could point us in

485
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,519
the direction of typology that maybe is relevant for the

486
00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:12,519
New Testament Church. Maybe vestiments aren't a bad idea. Maybe

487
00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:15,799
it's not wrong to have incense, right, So, you know,

488
00:23:16,079 --> 00:23:19,720
and this is ironic because, like you're saying, thirty forty

489
00:23:19,799 --> 00:23:22,200
years ago, the Reform, the Calvinists, you know, they had

490
00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:25,359
this strong position which they called the regulative principle of worship,

491
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,039
which is the idea that laid down in like the

492
00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:32,440
Westminster Confession, that you can only worship.

493
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,519
Speaker 5: God in the way that he is explicitly mentioned.

494
00:23:36,519 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 3: But of course the difficulty there, and I've been making

495
00:23:39,519 --> 00:23:41,799
this point quite a lot with the Protestants in the

496
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:43,799
last few years, is that, well, isn't it odd that

497
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,279
the New Testament then doesn't give us a pattern of worship?

498
00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:51,599
Now we have of Saint Paul complaining about abuses, but

499
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,640
how do we know the layout of what we're supposed

500
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,599
to do? If you're going to make the argument, as

501
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:01,440
many Calvinists do, that Nadab and Abaihu were put to

502
00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:03,960
death because they offered strange fire, they did what they

503
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,359
weren't supposed to do in Leviticus, because they didn't go

504
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:08,839
according to the explicit commands.

505
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:10,880
Speaker 5: Where are the explicit commands of how you do the

506
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:11,599
worship service?

507
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,279
Speaker 3: And it's intentionally, i think, providentially not there because there's

508
00:24:16,279 --> 00:24:19,359
a reliance on the fact that the Apostles and that

509
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:23,799
here's the weird part. Every Protestant scholar and even Anglican

510
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,519
liturgists that I've read, they admit that the Apostles had

511
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,480
some sort of liturgy that they established in the seas,

512
00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:36,200
the Apostolic seas and churches they set up that was

513
00:24:36,319 --> 00:24:39,079
some kind of blending of the Temple and the Synagogue service.

514
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:43,759
This is pretty pretty unanimous in history of liturgy books

515
00:24:43,799 --> 00:24:46,440
they will read, even from Protestants. So to me, that

516
00:24:46,599 --> 00:24:48,519
was kind of another big, you know thing when I

517
00:24:48,559 --> 00:24:51,039
read that many years ago that I didn't realize when

518
00:24:51,039 --> 00:24:53,160
I was Protestant, that liturgy has a key role in

519
00:24:53,279 --> 00:24:56,440
the formation of the Biblical canon. And when I learned that,

520
00:24:56,799 --> 00:25:01,119
that was pretty much I think the McDonald or Brusa

521
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,839
says that you can't divorce the daily lectionaries, the daily

522
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,039
readings from the canon and how the canon of Scripture

523
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,640
was was decided upon in terms of the many centuries actually,

524
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,119
plus even the fact that it's centuries and you know,

525
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,920
the Orthodox view, if we accept the you know trollo

526
00:25:18,079 --> 00:25:21,680
and I see it too, that's really where they affirm

527
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,960
the canons of Carthage that list our loose canon.

528
00:25:26,039 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 5: You could say.

529
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 3: That to me, and if you're a Protestants, I will wouldn't.

530
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,839
If we're Protestants in the in the first century, the

531
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,960
first thing we would do is decide the canon.

532
00:25:37,519 --> 00:25:39,519
Speaker 5: The Posts.

533
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 3: Would have said, hey, uh, we got to have Jerusalem

534
00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:44,759
Council to right acts fifteen.

535
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,799
Speaker 5: Let's have Jerusalem to right away here. And I don't

536
00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:49,799
know one hundred eighty or ninety eighty, well, I guess it.

537
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,519
Speaker 3: I'll be dead, But I don't know right after Why

538
00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:54,519
didn't Why wouldn't happen in the you know, John's day?

539
00:25:54,519 --> 00:25:56,599
Speaker 5: Why wouldn't John say, let's get together. We got to

540
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,680
decide this Bible first. I mean, we're Bible alone right.

541
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 3: Anyway, So I'm rambling, But again, yeah, I think you're

542
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:09,200
right father, that so many Protestants are beginning to see

543
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:14,640
that there's not just an issue of throwing this or

544
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,039
that Bible verse. There's a bigger issue at work here,

545
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,480
which is how does this Bible come to be? And

546
00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:25,880
the very people that make these decisions about putting these

547
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,359
books into the Bible, none of them believe Protestant stuff.

548
00:26:30,319 --> 00:26:33,279
And then the option usually for Protestants at that point.

549
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 5: I tried this too.

550
00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 3: When I first encountered this was well, I'm going to

551
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,680
try to find protestant Ish quotes in the church followers.

552
00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:43,759
Speaker 4: Well, you know, one of the other things that people

553
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,440
say about the IM not going to go into this,

554
00:26:46,559 --> 00:26:49,559
but just regarding the canon, is that the canon was

555
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,920
formed very early. Excuse me, the Lectionary was formed very early.

556
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,400
And one of the reasons why Revelation was debated for

557
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,839
the longest time, because one of the arguments was people

558
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,440
at point and say, it's not the Electionary, right, you know,

559
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:03,359
it's not already one of the books that we're reading.

560
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,319
So anyway, but we got we got so much more.

561
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:06,799
Speaker 6: We want to.

562
00:27:08,559 --> 00:27:10,839
Speaker 3: One point on that, which a lot of people don't

563
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,559
know about. I think it's in the in the le

564
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,920
McDonald book. If you read the Lee McDonald book.

565
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 5: He said, there's a whole chapter in there on how St.

566
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:23,279
Speaker 3: Athenasius went to Rome and Rome was doubting, Uh, the

567
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:29,920
Catholic Epistles and Revelation and Athanasius said, it's our tradition.

568
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,440
Speaker 5: This is this is a valid book, you should include it.

569
00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:33,799
So it's actually the.

570
00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 3: Pope of Rome was convinced to keep the Catholic Epistles

571
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,880
in the Roman Canon by Saint Anthenasius. And if once

572
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,039
you start to realize that, you know, in the Protestant mindset,

573
00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:46,000
it's kind of like sold scripture to the Bible just

574
00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:48,039
sort of like falls out of heaven as this like

575
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,920
complete thing, and then you realize, no, actually, the history

576
00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:56,880
is God using people through divine providence like Athenasius to say, uh,

577
00:27:57,079 --> 00:27:59,119
and I'm not saying that, I'm not saying it's true

578
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,960
because Rome said. I'm just saying that it is important

579
00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:05,559
that Rome included the Apocalypse in the Cannon. But it

580
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,720
wasn't just the pope saying I had to create the

581
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,279
apocalypse and no, it's out and Nasious had to go

582
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:10,799
convince it.

583
00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: It's interesting that earlier you mentioned like as you were

584
00:28:17,039 --> 00:28:19,839
thinking through that calvinistic system of yours, like you're you're

585
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,839
seeing scriptures like that weren't really, you know, compatible with

586
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:27,839
your your calvinistic beliefs. And I actually had a similar

587
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,519
kind of experience at my previous church when I, you know,

588
00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:31,480
I was asked to preach.

589
00:28:32,039 --> 00:28:33,440
Speaker 2: We're preaching through the Sermon on the.

590
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:38,279
Speaker 1: Mount, and I was just like, man like, justification seems

591
00:28:38,319 --> 00:28:40,640
like a process, and you know, like as you walk

592
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,960
through this Sermon on the Mount, like text I was

593
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,000
struggling with was like judging not unless.

594
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: You be judging the measure that you judge, you'll be judge.

595
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 1: Or also the you know, text about forgiveness like forgive

596
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,599
so that your heavenly Father would forgive you. And I'm

597
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,759
just like, man like, how do I preach this text?

598
00:28:55,839 --> 00:28:58,720
And I was like struggling because I was on stage.

599
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,319
I was like, yeah, this is what scholars you know

600
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,519
say like rc sproll this that and the third and

601
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,319
and here you know, so like I had this I

602
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,440
was I was almost like arrested to the text in

603
00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:10,160
a way where I was like I had to give

604
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,480
two views because I didn't know what to do because

605
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,759
I was like, clearly the text is saying something different

606
00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:17,640
than what Calvinism teach. What would you say for you

607
00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:19,839
were kind of those things that you looked at and

608
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,880
you're just like this this does not work.

609
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:23,319
Speaker 5: Oh.

610
00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:26,359
Speaker 3: There were so many I mean I remember thinking you know,

611
00:29:26,839 --> 00:29:31,799
like the parable of the sower. You know, in Calvinism,

612
00:29:31,839 --> 00:29:35,319
if you're regenerated, you're regenerated, right, that doesn't go way

613
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,400
because only the elect are regenerated. But in the parable

614
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,200
of the Sower, it's very clearly the analogy is used

615
00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:46,319
that one of the seeds sprouts up to new life

616
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,799
and withers, aways and dies. And I could never make

617
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,440
sense of that. And of course you have to say

618
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:55,480
things like, well it didn't really spring up to now.

619
00:29:58,119 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 5: The analogy doesn't work anymore if it didn't really spring

620
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:01,359
up to new life.

621
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 3: And you know, there's there's so many other passages like that,

622
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,519
where you know, in Hebrews, you know, you have the

623
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,440
passage about tasting of the heavenly gift, and you know

624
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,559
they've been washed, they've tasted of the life to come.

625
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,319
Speaker 5: How do you taste of the life to come? If?

626
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:18,559
Speaker 3: I mean, that could only be a regeneration and you

627
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,240
can't be unregenerated if you're regenerated. So, you know, so

628
00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:26,440
many of those passages were difficult passages too that related

629
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,079
to baptism. I noticed that, you know, every time we

630
00:30:29,119 --> 00:30:34,720
would talk about the right of baptism, it was distinct

631
00:30:34,839 --> 00:30:35,960
from all those.

632
00:30:35,799 --> 00:30:39,319
Speaker 5: Things in the New Testament about baptism, and it's.

633
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 3: Like, well, you know, how come Paul isn't distinguishing visible

634
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,160
invisible church, visible baptism from invisible baptism. Right, It's always

635
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,279
spoken of as this unit of act, even to the

636
00:30:51,319 --> 00:30:53,599
point of, you know, Titus three five, the washing of

637
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:59,119
the labor of regeneration, like this seems to be the

638
00:30:59,519 --> 00:31:04,279
grace and the sacrament. The physical elements are united here.

639
00:31:04,519 --> 00:31:07,240
And so the more I noticed this union, and the

640
00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:09,160
more I noticed that, well, now wait a minute. So

641
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,920
we're doing the same thing with ecclesiology, where we're saying

642
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:17,480
that the church is invisible, it's a spiritual thing, and

643
00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:20,599
then there's this visible church that's kind of a big mess, right,

644
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,519
and the true Elector amongst the you know, all these

645
00:31:23,559 --> 00:31:25,839
different groups. And it's like, but Paul is always saying

646
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,160
one Lord, one faith, one body, one baptism.

647
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 5: It's always joined.

648
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,039
Speaker 3: And those were you know, when I would think about

649
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:34,119
those pastors another here's an overlooked one too.

650
00:31:34,839 --> 00:31:36,319
Speaker 5: That really stuck with me.

651
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 3: When I was a Calvinist. I remember, you know, I

652
00:31:40,039 --> 00:31:42,240
was really into covenant theology. If you're Reformed, you know,

653
00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:43,519
you love Covenant theology.

654
00:31:43,599 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 5: You really want to you.

655
00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 3: Want to stress Covenant theology when you're discussing with a

656
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:50,319
dispensationalist or a Baptist. You want to say, hey, you know,

657
00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:53,559
we've got these Covenant blessings just like or even better

658
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:53,960
than the.

659
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 5: Old Testament that people had.

660
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: You know, we can have people included in the Covenant

661
00:31:59,359 --> 00:32:01,680
more so, right, because if you in the Old Testament,

662
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:03,319
you know, it was the males that.

663
00:32:03,359 --> 00:32:05,279
Speaker 5: Were circumcised to be included in the Covenant.

664
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 3: Now it's anybody, men, women, gentiles, everybody can be included

665
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,839
in the Covenant. But then I realized, well, I'm making

666
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:16,640
an argument against a Baptist or against a dispensationalists. That's historical.

667
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:20,400
And then I started thinking, you know, the history of

668
00:32:20,559 --> 00:32:25,519
the Covenant in the Old Testament is one people, right,

669
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,720
And yeah, in the Old Testament, certainly other people outside

670
00:32:29,759 --> 00:32:31,599
the nation of Israel could be joined to the Nation

671
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:32,720
of Israel as possible.

672
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,759
Speaker 5: But the point is that there's one group or church

673
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,839
called the people of Israel, the Ecclesia.

674
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:41,119
Speaker 3: And then in the New Testament, if I'm going to

675
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,480
make that historical argument, I can't just restrict it to

676
00:32:43,519 --> 00:32:46,039
the New Testament. There seems to be one historical group

677
00:32:46,079 --> 00:32:48,759
as well in the New Testament, and so the church

678
00:32:48,839 --> 00:32:52,240
has to also be just as one, and even more

679
00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:55,880
so one because it's post penthecost than the Old Testament Church.

680
00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:59,359
And so I realized that I couldn't argue that the

681
00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:04,119
Church arch existed amongst thirty thousand different groups. Right, it

682
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,000
has to be a single visible and all the analogies

683
00:33:07,079 --> 00:33:10,799
that not just Paul, but Jesus uses right, the tree,

684
00:33:11,319 --> 00:33:16,000
one tree, the sheep fold, right, it's all these unit

685
00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:18,920
of things that are also united in history. Doesn't mean

686
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,319
that the Church doesn't have periods of you know, schisms

687
00:33:21,359 --> 00:33:23,759
and stuff like that. But I'm just saying that there's

688
00:33:23,799 --> 00:33:27,319
also a historical continuity to the historicity of God's people

689
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,319
being a single people.

690
00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:30,039
Speaker 5: Jay.

691
00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:33,359
Speaker 4: When we talk in orthodoxy about what's central to our

692
00:33:33,559 --> 00:33:35,599
to our faith, what's central to our church, we talk

693
00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,440
about across the Death the Resurrection. Is it fair to

694
00:33:39,559 --> 00:33:43,839
say that when you were a Calvinist that rather than that?

695
00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:48,160
Is it fair to say that Tulip was the foundational

696
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,720
center of Calvinist theology rather than the Cross, the Death

697
00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:54,279
the Resurrection?

698
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 6: Is that favorable?

699
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 3: That's another angle that's a great critique, you know, because

700
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,640
you would if you read the epistoles.

701
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 5: You know, Paul.

702
00:34:03,119 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: Paul's always stressing those things. The gospel is death, grow resurrection.

703
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,679
Speaker 5: The gospel is that, And then if you're a Calvinist,

704
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,880
you're thinking, well, that's not really the gospel. The gospel is.

705
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 3: Roman's nine and the divine decree, right, I mean, the

706
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,440
gospel is this sort of process of you knowing the

707
00:34:19,559 --> 00:34:22,559
divine mind's decree of who the elect are, and then

708
00:34:22,679 --> 00:34:25,519
understanding that there's toll to pravity, that you don't have

709
00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:28,800
the ability to move yourself towards God, that you have

710
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,039
to have irresistible grace and monargism, which is the divine

711
00:34:33,119 --> 00:34:35,840
energy has to act in you to cause you effectually

712
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,199
to believe. So there's a loss of synergism and all

713
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,320
that in the process of salvation, and there's no notion

714
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,840
of losing that faith falling away because the elect or

715
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:50,480
that's who Christ died for limited atonement, right, irresistible grace,

716
00:34:50,519 --> 00:34:54,199
and then perseverance, meaning that only the elect ultimately perseveres.

717
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,440
So yeah, that's an interesting angle as well that you know,

718
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,840
it's kind of like when you're if you're an Evangelical, Baptist,

719
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,039
not Reformed. You know, you think when somebody says, what's

720
00:35:05,079 --> 00:35:07,400
the gospel, and you think, oh, it's Romans Road. You know,

721
00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:09,679
you go to Romans three and you don't understand that

722
00:35:09,679 --> 00:35:11,199
you're a sinner, and then you go over here that

723
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:12,440
you can't do good, and then you go here it

724
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,480
at Romans five that you know justified by it.

725
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,159
Speaker 5: So it's like this, that's the.

726
00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 3: Pathway that supposedly lowest common denominor scales the Gospel down.

727
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 5: But that's not what Paul says. How come Paul's always

728
00:35:26,039 --> 00:35:29,840
saying resurrection, resurrection, ascension, ascension, and I just, yeah, you're

729
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:30,440
absolutely right.

730
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,159
Speaker 3: Like at a certain point you realize, you know, those

731
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,840
weren't really significant and reform theology or Pentecost, I mean,

732
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:40,280
even the action of Pentecost.

733
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,519
Speaker 5: It's like I realized eventually that.

734
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 3: Well, Pentecost is the empowering of the church, and Jesus says,

735
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,960
I'm not going to leave you, forsake you, and I'll

736
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,400
guide you into all truth. And yet here we are,

737
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,360
as Protestants and reform we're saying, well right away that

738
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,880
you know, the church pretty much failed historically, right, But

739
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,519
where was this promise of Pentecost, guidance and so forth. Oh, well,

740
00:36:01,559 --> 00:36:04,159
that's all for the elect. But wait a minute. When

741
00:36:04,199 --> 00:36:08,119
Paul writes to the Ephesians when he's talking about predestination,

742
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,880
he's not writing to the elect, to the invisible church.

743
00:36:12,039 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 5: He's writing to a visible community at Ephesus.

744
00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:17,079
Speaker 3: And that was always a problem for me in terms

745
00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:20,280
of exegesis of Ephesians, because I have a you know,

746
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,800
a million reform commentaries and I'm over here reading Charles

747
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,760
Hodge and you know how to see exegy, you know Ephesians. Oh,

748
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,519
this is Paul writing to the regenerate at ephicis to

749
00:36:29,559 --> 00:36:32,920
the elect. No, it's written to the visible church. And

750
00:36:33,039 --> 00:36:35,920
that's a problem. That means that the Protestant, the Calvinist

751
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,159
of auction predestination is not what's in Paul's mind.

752
00:36:38,199 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: There.

753
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 3: So, long story short, the essence of what you're asking

754
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:48,360
is that the the Tulip approach is the wrong order theology,

755
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,519
the wrong order of theology. It's reading theology from trying

756
00:36:52,559 --> 00:36:52,719
to do.

757
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,599
Speaker 5: It from the vantage point of the divine mind, the

758
00:36:54,639 --> 00:36:56,559
divine decree. But that's not how we do it.

759
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,719
Speaker 3: Theology is read first and foremost trying to and Christology wise,

760
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,000
then that leads you to how you would understand saeteriology

761
00:37:06,039 --> 00:37:09,880
and ecclesiology. So if you try to start with the

762
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:15,199
divine decree, start with uh sateriology, right justification by faith alone,

763
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,559
that's the gospel, it gets all messed.

764
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 5: Up, and then you get people.

765
00:37:18,519 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 3: Then then down the road your your trinitarian christological stuff's

766
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,280
all messed up because you have to squeeze Jesus being

767
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,039
damned into the presuppositions.

768
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 5: That you have of justification by faith alone.

769
00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:33,119
Speaker 4: And both of you coming from a Calvinist background, it

770
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,079
would seem to me there's another big thing missing out

771
00:37:36,119 --> 00:37:39,400
of out of this is that you can take the sinner,

772
00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:45,519
and you can forgive the sinner all you want, forgive, forgive, forget, forget, forgive.

773
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,480
That sinner is still going to die. You haven't in

774
00:37:48,599 --> 00:37:50,679
the Calvinist it seems to me, and I could be wrong.

775
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,480
In the Calvinist way of looking at things, you still

776
00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:59,639
haven't dealt with death. And Christ destroyed death so that

777
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,159
the inner still forgiven, who is still having to deal

778
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,039
with the sin in him, the sinful nature and so forth,

779
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,880
could live. And it seems like that that's missing, that

780
00:38:09,039 --> 00:38:13,679
that the the idea that Christ destroyed death. Yeah, that's

781
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,119
missing from Calvinist theology.

782
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:21,039
Speaker 3: It's a crucial point because in Calvinist theology, death is

783
00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:26,320
kind of like a necessary it's it's a necessary element

784
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,679
under the divine decree. Right, So it's not the enemy

785
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,559
of God. It's sort of just the tool of God.

786
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,159
And certainly, certainly God's providence covers evil and death, but

787
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,920
it doesn't mean that he positively wills.

788
00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:39,159
Speaker 5: Or decrees it.

789
00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:42,119
Speaker 3: In fact, Scripture says God does not will death. And

790
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,920
you know very well, I's got these different wills. So

791
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,920
he's got one will where it's like he doesn't really

792
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,559
want it, but he's got a secret will where he's

793
00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:50,400
like doing it now.

794
00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:52,159
Speaker 6: It's crazy.

795
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this is this is a.

796
00:38:57,639 --> 00:38:58,079
Speaker 5: Huge gap.

797
00:38:58,119 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right, and it ties into the notion that

798
00:39:01,559 --> 00:39:03,840
you can be saved and justified and righteous and have

799
00:39:04,039 --> 00:39:07,760
no no actual holiness. Right, that's the That's a weird

800
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,320
thing that I actually encountered that in a lot of

801
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:15,639
the Roman Catholic critiques of Protestantism when I was looking

802
00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:19,880
at Roman Catholicism, because they made a great point. I

803
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,440
think it was it was I think it was on

804
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,800
k there's a there's an old book that his X

805
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,000
debate with Luther. It's actually a really good book. I'm no,

806
00:39:29,039 --> 00:39:31,599
I'm not advocating Roman calicism. I'm just saying that k

807
00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:33,760
has some really good arguments in that debate with Luther,

808
00:39:34,679 --> 00:39:36,920
and he's and and and some of the topics brought

809
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,079
up are things like, well, how can God call somebody

810
00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:42,960
righteous if in fact they're completely wicked?

811
00:39:43,039 --> 00:39:45,599
Speaker 5: As you say, Luther, right, you're filthy rags.

812
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,519
Speaker 3: Luther was even more radical and depravity than Calvin was

813
00:39:48,519 --> 00:39:51,320
because Luther wrote Bondage of the Will, which is basically

814
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:53,760
arguing that you can you can't do anything good at all.

815
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,119
He's more radical just on that point than Calvin is. Well,

816
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,440
He's says that you you're a you're a you're an

817
00:40:02,519 --> 00:40:04,000
ass that's either ridden by.

818
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,559
Speaker 5: God or the devil, but the devil.

819
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's in that BONDI as the Will book,

820
00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:11,239
and I had a page where I read I read

821
00:40:12,039 --> 00:40:12,599
Luther books.

822
00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 5: I was really enamored with Luther for maybe a year

823
00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:14,800
or two.

824
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,280
Speaker 3: I wasn't Lutheran, but I just thought he was an interesting,

825
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,079
you know, bombastic figure. But uh, you know, AQ was

826
00:40:22,159 --> 00:40:24,079
making these points that well, doesn't that make God a liar?

827
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,000
How can God call you righteous when in fact you're

828
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,079
evil and God can't lie, So how is that possible?

829
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,960
Oh well, he's just seeing the righteousness of Christ's covering you.

830
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,239
But it's not actually the righteous of Christ. It's actually

831
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,800
just a legal status. And that there's a great point

832
00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:44,480
that I think it's brought up in the Alistair McGrath

833
00:40:44,599 --> 00:40:49,199
Ustisia Day Book, which is that nobody before nominalism in

834
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,440
the Middle Ages and the Reformed, the rise of the

835
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:57,880
Reformed tradition, they didn't think of a division between what

836
00:40:58,039 --> 00:41:02,039
you called something and it's actual metaphysical status. That's an

837
00:41:02,079 --> 00:41:05,000
actual post Enlightenment Reformation division.

838
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:07,119
Speaker 5: In other words, it's.

839
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 3: Impossible to have that view, that nominalist view prior to

840
00:41:11,599 --> 00:41:13,039
medieval nominalism debates.

841
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,760
Speaker 5: So, in other words, nobody in the ancient Midial world.

842
00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:19,599
Speaker 3: Including Paul, thought that you could have a purely legal

843
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,920
status of righteousness divorced from the actual ontological status of

844
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:24,679
you being righteous.

845
00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:27,599
Speaker 5: And that's a little bit of a philosophical angle on it.

846
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 3: But if that is the case, and I think that

847
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:33,079
it is, that's also really devastating to the idea that

848
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,920
you can be just before God in a.

849
00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:39,679
Speaker 5: Purely nominal legal sense and not in an actual sense.

850
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:41,679
There wasn't a vision in the world.

851
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:45,159
Speaker 4: And ladies and gentlemen watching this debate sometime in the

852
00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:47,760
future of this recording, go back and listen to what

853
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:48,639
Jay just said.

854
00:41:49,199 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 6: Listen to that again. That's really something.

855
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's no diventon.

856
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 3: And the same thing goes for sacraments, right the ancient

857
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,920
and medieval world. Now, certainly there were heretics that deny

858
00:42:00,159 --> 00:42:03,960
the real presence, but they didn't typically think of this

859
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,199
radical division between.

860
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 5: Sign and signifier. Right.

861
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,519
Speaker 3: The same goes for iconography, the image of the icon,

862
00:42:13,599 --> 00:42:15,400
the image of the saint. They didn't think of it

863
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,559
as this radical division of Oh, that's just a purely

864
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:22,199
token symbol. They thought of it as having in some

865
00:42:22,639 --> 00:42:26,760
sense a real, a real metaphysical connection with the person,

866
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,480
that being the thing. Right, So there might have been

867
00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:32,320
debates about the real presence, but nobody thought about it.

868
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:36,639
As you know, symbols in the ancient world were not sure.

869
00:42:38,119 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 5: Dead matter. Does that make sense?

870
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's what they think of it today, That's

871
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:44,800
not what they thought of it back then. The word

872
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,920
symbol is radically altered now from what it meant two

873
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:48,679
thousand years ago.

874
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:49,119
Speaker 5: There you go.

875
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you were clashing two things together.

876
00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 6: Is that absolute? Yeah?

877
00:42:55,159 --> 00:42:58,599
Speaker 2: You so this question here, I got to ask you this.

878
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: So Daniel, Daniel MacArthur, if you're listening, he wanted me

879
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,239
to ask Jay Dire this when when the opportunity presented itself,

880
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:11,280
So you're welcome. So basically you touched up on this

881
00:43:11,519 --> 00:43:15,719
idea of the Christology, this reformed Christology. Now it's been

882
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,480
kind of you know, you know, mutilated in a way.

883
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,199
Can you can you speak more in to that. I

884
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,599
know you referenced you know where that kind of gets

885
00:43:24,639 --> 00:43:26,760
messed up, But it's an it's an important point.

886
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,159
Speaker 2: Daniel said. That was something I was very convincing for

887
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:30,239
him as well.

888
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 5: Back in the day.

889
00:43:31,519 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: You've you've had videos where you've talked about this. But

890
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,519
can you kind of walk through why that Christology issue

891
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,719
is such a huge point and and and why it's heretical?

892
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 3: Sure, so I would say I'm not saying that Protestants

893
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,639
are intentionally wanting to be an historian.

894
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:48,119
Speaker 5: Sure.

895
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 3: A lot of times when I make this point, though,

896
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,920
say I'm not a Nestorian. I don't believe that I'm

897
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:55,000
not saying that you're intending to be. What I'm saying

898
00:43:55,079 --> 00:43:59,320
is that the logic of the penal substitution position will

899
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,239
take you there if if you're consistent with it, and.

900
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 5: It's pretty clear cut. I think that now some Protestants and.

901
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,639
Speaker 3: Evangelicals today, I mean maybe maybe Calvinists are up in

902
00:44:12,639 --> 00:44:14,519
the air today. I'm not sure I did hear that one.

903
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,639
Somebody told me that one of the modern calvin Is

904
00:44:17,679 --> 00:44:20,360
systematic theologians. I don't remember who it was, maybe Robert

905
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,559
Raymond or somebody. Somebody supposedly doesn't have the classical Reformation

906
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,840
view that that Jesus was damned in our place.

907
00:44:28,519 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 5: But for the classical.

908
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:35,880
Speaker 3: Reformers, even up in two people like j. I. Packer, uh,

909
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:44,440
Paul Washer teaches it got to do who's the other

910
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,519
the Calvinist Baptist guy that everybody that's super famous always

911
00:44:48,519 --> 00:44:52,280
good blank on his name, John John Piper John Piper

912
00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:55,679
teaches hyper teaches that Christ was damned. I'm trying to

913
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:57,519
think of who the classical guys.

914
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 5: All that's really cool.

915
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,159
Speaker 6: You've got the damns himself. I like that one. Boy.

916
00:45:02,559 --> 00:45:06,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I mean they're trying to be consistent because

917
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:12,920
so you have, you know you have in the Apostles Creed.

918
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:14,800
I know that's not really an Orthodox church. But in

919
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,719
the West, when Luther or Calvin and these guys, when

920
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,159
they were commenting on Christ's descent into Hades and the

921
00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:24,079
Apostles Creed, they had to give it a new understanding

922
00:45:24,159 --> 00:45:26,880
because unfortunately, even though the Latin Church in the West

923
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:30,239
at that time they I believe that they had kind

924
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,079
of lost the significance of christ discent into Hades, it

925
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,960
was still it was still there in confession, and even

926
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,079
today in the calch Catechism.

927
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,079
Speaker 5: It's still there that they professed that Christ has sent

928
00:45:41,159 --> 00:45:42,440
it into the Hades.

929
00:45:43,079 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 3: But the Reformers, this is a fascinating They gave it

930
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,280
a new spin. They said, well, it's not him actually

931
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,840
going to some place called Hades. What that means is

932
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:58,960
that on the cross he experienced the reality of the

933
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,199
damn nation enough of all.

934
00:46:01,079 --> 00:46:02,079
Speaker 5: The people that he died for.

935
00:46:03,119 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 3: The logic of that is that if it's going to

936
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,559
be a full transaction in a legal sense, if he's

937
00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:10,000
going to pay the debt that I owed he paid.

938
00:46:11,599 --> 00:46:15,679
Speaker 5: Hey, you know, I remember that Baptist hmi we used

939
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:16,519
to sing when I was a kid.

940
00:46:17,159 --> 00:46:19,280
Speaker 3: Uh so, right, I mean, if the debt is, if

941
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:21,840
it's a one to warry, you've got to pay the damnation,

942
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,159
which was to me that I then get.

943
00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 5: The bank account righteousness put into my bank account.

944
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 7: Right.

945
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 3: That's how it works in the classical Protestant idea. So

946
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,159
it's not just them saying, oh, well, God just forgives

947
00:46:35,199 --> 00:46:37,480
you and transfers the righteous acust to your bank account.

948
00:46:38,039 --> 00:46:41,960
It's on the basis of in most of the classical reformers,

949
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,719
the wrath of the Father being poured out on the son.

950
00:46:48,039 --> 00:46:50,239
So then we have this question in terms of Christology,

951
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,679
which is that, well, if we're going to be orthodox

952
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,800
in our christology, how does that actually work?

953
00:46:55,960 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 5: Because is it the Father damning the son? And if

954
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,920
you believe Ephesus and the Christology that you know comes.

955
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,519
Speaker 3: Out of well not just Ephysis but calcil On, then

956
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,159
we know that the subject is a divine person, the

957
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:14,760
logos is the divine person who's undergoing supposedly this event,

958
00:47:15,119 --> 00:47:17,400
and that would mean then that the divine person of

959
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:19,639
the Father is damning the divine person of the Logos

960
00:47:19,679 --> 00:47:20,559
who's incarnate.

961
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 5: So you kind of only have two options there.

962
00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 3: You can say, well, it's not the father damning the

963
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:30,679
divine son, it's the damnation of the human nature.

964
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,039
Speaker 5: Well, but it's there has to be.

965
00:47:33,159 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 6: Some one person.

966
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you've got to be some subject that is the

967
00:47:36,119 --> 00:47:39,239
recipient of that. It can't just be the human nature

968
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:41,000
that's damned. It has to be a subject. And so

969
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:43,519
is that Jesus of Nazareth the historical person.

970
00:47:43,599 --> 00:47:45,119
Speaker 5: Well, that would be the story in view that.

971
00:47:46,639 --> 00:47:49,119
Speaker 3: The story is sought a dual subject christology, that there

972
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:53,320
was a human hypostasis Jesus Nazareth, and then there's the

973
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,039
divine hypostasis of the Logos, who was kind of sometimes

974
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:59,519
present and then sometimes it's the human person sometimes. So

975
00:47:59,599 --> 00:48:02,719
it's this weird dual subject risology and the whole point

976
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,320
of the tokos the word the phrase is, Cyril said,

977
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,000
this completely cuts out the whole idea of there being

978
00:48:10,039 --> 00:48:13,440
a dual subject risology. The only subject for all the

979
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,440
incarnate action, Cyril says, is the divine person of the Logos.

980
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 5: That's it. He is a full human nature, but he's

981
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,360
not a human hypostasis or person.

982
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,800
Speaker 3: And so if we accept ephicis and that teaching, then

983
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,440
what happened And by the way, Calcton as well, because

984
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:28,719
a lot of people don't know.

985
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:31,559
Speaker 5: People think Leo is the measure of Calciton. That's not

986
00:48:31,639 --> 00:48:34,679
actually true. They measured the tone of.

987
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 3: Leo against Cyril, So Calcedon is actually Kairellion, not primarily

988
00:48:42,079 --> 00:48:45,679
Pope sing Leo. Now, point being, then the other option

989
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,519
is I could say, well, in this transactional event, I

990
00:48:48,679 --> 00:48:52,840
could say that the divine person of the Sun is

991
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,559
the one that's damned. But this presents so many trinitarian

992
00:48:56,679 --> 00:49:02,199
difficulties that it's almost just unimaginable. I mean, first of all,

993
00:49:03,159 --> 00:49:06,159
the persons of the triads share the same will.

994
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 5: There's one will in God.

995
00:49:09,079 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 3: How could you have one will the person of the

996
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,159
Father setting his will against the son to damn the son, right,

997
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,239
how could you you would We would lose parichoresis, the

998
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,239
divine involve right, the Father and the spirit would no

999
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,000
longer dwell the son if he's damned, because he's a curut.

1000
00:49:24,559 --> 00:49:26,079
Speaker 5: So it's just absurd, it would be it would be

1001
00:49:26,119 --> 00:49:26,960
anti trinitarian.

1002
00:49:27,079 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 4: But that they wouldn't have those teachings to begin with,

1003
00:49:29,599 --> 00:49:33,760
because from Protestants from the Reformation on, think of how

1004
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,199
much they were simply inventing because everything was anti Catholic

1005
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,440
at that point. So if the Catholics believe it, we don't,

1006
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:41,960
then what do we believe? And then they have to

1007
00:49:42,039 --> 00:49:44,320
come up with this kind of stuff as something, because

1008
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:45,320
what are the people waiting for?

1009
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 3: You know, well, if you read Lutheran Calvin, there's always

1010
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,000
this sort of verbal credence given to things like Calcedon

1011
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:57,360
and so forth. Uh are oddly enough, the Westminster Confession,

1012
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,239
if I recall, which is post Calvin, it actually does

1013
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:05,280
give it gives verbal credence to Christ having uh two

1014
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,280
wills and two natures, which is the you know fifth

1015
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,920
and six councils explicate that, but you know, the six

1016
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:16,840
Council goes really deep into two energies, so you know,

1017
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:19,159
you have to have the essence energy sinction doctrine to

1018
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,760
have two wills and two energy. And to my knowledge,

1019
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,440
there's no Protestant that that have an essence energy sinction doctrin,

1020
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,079
unless it's just people modern people just kind of saying, oh,

1021
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:28,800
I like that idea.

1022
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:33,159
Speaker 5: Cool, But but Calvin, I think, you know, and then

1023
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:34,800
I've read the entire institute how to read that?

1024
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:37,039
Speaker 3: For bonds and seminary they measure that the whole thing,

1025
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:39,880
all fifteen hundred pages of it. And I remember there

1026
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,840
are sections where Calvin's you know, he's like, well, you know,

1027
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,000
we believe in two natures and two wills, and that's

1028
00:50:46,039 --> 00:50:49,280
consistent with Calcedon, and we definitely believe. We don't believe

1029
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,840
Colson is a fallible, but we definitely believe what it teaches.

1030
00:50:52,199 --> 00:50:54,320
But they don't really understand the implications of it. You know,

1031
00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:59,039
it's more than just verbal verbal credence, right right.

1032
00:50:59,079 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 4: Well, Jay, what do we do with a person comes

1033
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:07,280
along and says something like, you know, I'm not okay,

1034
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:12,119
I'm not reformed or Calvinist anymore. I'm a Bible believing Christian.

1035
00:51:12,199 --> 00:51:13,679
You know, you have a lot of I'm a Bible

1036
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,079
believing Christian. Read If that's all they are, how do

1037
00:51:17,159 --> 00:51:19,960
you show them that they're no better off from the

1038
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:21,719
ancient Apostolic Christianity.

1039
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,119
Speaker 5: And you've probably encountered a lot of this, right, Oh yeah, yeah,

1040
00:51:26,119 --> 00:51:27,320
I mean there's a lot of a lot of.

1041
00:51:29,119 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, well, I find it typically the most beneficial

1042
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:34,360
to go into just saying, well, who do you think

1043
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:35,239
put the Bible together?

1044
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 5: You know, I mean, did it just happen fall out

1045
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:38,320
of the sky.

1046
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,159
Speaker 3: I mean there's a real historical process to that that

1047
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:45,239
you can't you can't divorce the divine from the human

1048
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,440
in this regard. So just as just as in Christology,

1049
00:51:49,519 --> 00:51:52,039
for example, I know evangelicals might not know about Christology,

1050
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:55,599
but for you guys, for orthodox people, like, we know

1051
00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:59,000
there's a synergy in Christ, right, there's a synergism between

1052
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,559
the human nature and the divine nature in Christ. And

1053
00:52:01,639 --> 00:52:05,199
we know there's a synergy in terms of our participation

1054
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,599
in grace. Right, we are always cooperating. Paul says, I'm

1055
00:52:08,599 --> 00:52:11,719
a co operator, co worker with Christ coworker. Yeah, yeah,

1056
00:52:12,079 --> 00:52:14,480
So there's always synergy. It's never gone, it's never lost.

1057
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,039
And you know, one of the problems in Calvinism is

1058
00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:21,519
that conversion requires God.

1059
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,280
Speaker 5: Stepping in and basically taking over.

1060
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,519
Speaker 3: So it's a monargistic view, and if they were consistent,

1061
00:52:27,559 --> 00:52:30,000
I think they would also have to be monargists in

1062
00:52:30,119 --> 00:52:32,480
terms of Christology as well. So it seems to me

1063
00:52:32,559 --> 00:52:35,559
that they would prefer severus and peer us, you know,

1064
00:52:35,599 --> 00:52:38,320
the people that Maximis in the Church Fathers argued with

1065
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:41,599
they would be more like a Coptic my Ephicite type

1066
00:52:41,599 --> 00:52:42,039
of position.

1067
00:52:42,119 --> 00:52:43,519
Speaker 5: If they wanted to really be monogists.

1068
00:52:43,559 --> 00:52:49,199
Speaker 3: But for the typically evangelical, I would say, one thing

1069
00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,239
I've found really effective is to point out, you know,

1070
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,880
they'll always say, well, we're not saved by our works, bro,

1071
00:52:54,679 --> 00:52:57,719
you can't be saved by works, you know, We're justified

1072
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:58,639
by faith, not works.

1073
00:52:58,679 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 5: And I said, well, how does what is Jesus describe

1074
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,239
faith as? And they're like, it's a gift. Yeah, but

1075
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,719
what does he say? He says, this is the work

1076
00:53:07,079 --> 00:53:09,960
of God that you believe on him. So wait a minute, So.

1077
00:53:10,079 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 3: Faith is actually a work according to Christ of the

1078
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:16,280
Gospel of John. So it can't be the case that

1079
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,599
no works are necessary, because every evangelical is going to

1080
00:53:20,679 --> 00:53:23,400
at least say, well, you do have to believe.

1081
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 5: Wait a minute, doesn't believe something I do. Even if

1082
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,920
you think that it's just a mental notional thing, it's

1083
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:30,039
still something I gotta do.

1084
00:53:30,599 --> 00:53:33,599
Speaker 3: You well, but it's a gift, yeah, but it's still

1085
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,239
it's something I gotta do, right, So they can't totally

1086
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:41,679
divorce the human element from it at all. And then

1087
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,360
you then I would point out, well, one thing that

1088
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,920
happens in the history of this debate of justification by

1089
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:52,119
faith alone is that the people who defend it oftentimes.

1090
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 5: Totally disagree amongst themselves as to what it actually means. So,

1091
00:53:58,039 --> 00:54:03,119
for example, does my faith faith in the Atoning.

1092
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,079
Speaker 3: Death, row resurrection work of Christ is that if I

1093
00:54:06,119 --> 00:54:07,840
put all my faith in trust in that alone?

1094
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,159
Speaker 5: Is that just the case by faith on? Or as

1095
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:14,400
many of the classical Reformed actually said and Lutherans do.

1096
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 3: I also have to know and believe in justification by

1097
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,039
faith alone. To be just by by faith alone, you see,

1098
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,719
So you can sort of pile on the difficulties there

1099
00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:29,079
to illustrate that what sounds perhaps as a very clear,

1100
00:54:30,119 --> 00:54:32,480
you know, the persecutive structure that sounds as a very

1101
00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:34,159
clear doctrine, actually isn't that clear?

1102
00:54:34,199 --> 00:54:35,039
Speaker 5: What does it actually mean?

1103
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 8: And I would point out one other strong point which

1104
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,719
I learned when I was a Catholic, was, you know,

1105
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:45,320
if you look at Romans, for when Paul cites Genesis,

1106
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,960
and it doesn't matter whether you're a Protestant, Evangelical or

1107
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,159
a Calvinist.

1108
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 3: Abraham's what they call transition from wrath to grace. This

1109
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,920
is the the idea that before you regenerate your God's enemy,

1110
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,480
you're a child of wrath, got hate, right, when you're regenerated.

1111
00:55:02,519 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 5: That's what they call a transition from wrath to grace.

1112
00:55:05,119 --> 00:55:07,599
Now God loves you, you're the friend of God, your regenerator.

1113
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 3: The transition from wrath to grace in Abraham's life should be,

1114
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,320
if you're a good Protestant, Genesis twelve.

1115
00:55:18,559 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 5: But I remember noticing it one day when I was

1116
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,920
looking at the Catholic stuff back in twenty or four.

1117
00:55:24,079 --> 00:55:29,199
Speaker 3: Actually, Paul cites Genesis fifteen, or the passage supposed to

1118
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:33,400
be supposedly the ultimate passage, Romans four, you know, defending

1119
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,920
justification by faith alone. Why is Paul citing the wrong chapter?

1120
00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:41,880
Abraham has already done three chapters of righteous works from

1121
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:46,239
twelve to fifteen. Paul's using the text in fifteen that

1122
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,599
he was justified by faith, he was righteous by faith,

1123
00:55:49,039 --> 00:55:51,679
not Genesis twelve. And that always bugged me because he

1124
00:55:52,079 --> 00:55:55,760
should have cited Genesis twelve. Right, if we're Protestants, but

1125
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,880
if righteousness from God is something that is an actual

1126
00:56:00,679 --> 00:56:03,440
power that we participate with and synergize with.

1127
00:56:04,079 --> 00:56:06,679
Speaker 5: Right, and Paul's point, of course, I think we all

1128
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,000
know Paul's point is not that there's no works that

1129
00:56:09,159 --> 00:56:12,159
we do. Paul's point is that the works of.

1130
00:56:12,199 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 3: The ceremonial law and circumcision didn't make Abraham righteous.

1131
00:56:16,119 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 5: That's the point of that passage. The mosaic law didn't

1132
00:56:20,079 --> 00:56:22,440
make because if mosaic law was necessary, then how are

1133
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:23,679
people before mosaic law?

1134
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 6: Rochester.

1135
00:56:24,079 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 5: That's Paul's point, not that we don't do any works

1136
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:27,440
at all. Right.

1137
00:56:28,159 --> 00:56:33,679
Speaker 3: So, but if the Protestant reading, whether you're Calvinists or evangelical,

1138
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:38,800
a Romans four is what Romans four is, Paul should

1139
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:39,880
have sided Genesis twelfth.

1140
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:45,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, facts, yeah, no, good point, good point.

1141
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 5: Wow.

1142
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 6: Well other thing two.

1143
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,119
Speaker 5: I would say to one other point.

1144
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:56,599
Speaker 3: You know, when when God speaks, it occurs, it's efficacious. Right,

1145
00:56:57,679 --> 00:57:00,440
God speaks, the world comes to be. And so if

1146
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:03,719
God speaks, you're righteous. God speaks a word into our hearts.

1147
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:07,599
The New Testament says, right, it's efficacious. I don't mean

1148
00:57:07,679 --> 00:57:10,280
this in the sense of like irresistible grace, but I'm saying.

1149
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:14,039
Speaker 5: It's not possible for God to say you are righteous

1150
00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:17,840
and you'd be Luther and you not be that right

1151
00:57:18,079 --> 00:57:19,480
because His word is efficacious.

1152
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:28,559
Speaker 2: Yeah. Good's stuff. Good stuff. Father. As as we come

1153
00:57:28,599 --> 00:57:30,400
to close, Barther, you how you're about to say something.

1154
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,280
Speaker 6: Well, I think we have.

1155
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 4: Kind of one last thing we'd like to ask Jay,

1156
00:57:41,039 --> 00:57:42,960
And this kind of wraps back to the to the

1157
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,360
first question. So many Protestant videos coming out why you

1158
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,119
should leave Orthodoxy, Why you should become a Protestant. Let's

1159
00:57:49,199 --> 00:57:54,719
turn that around. Why is Eastern Orthodoxy a better alternative

1160
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:56,559
for Protestants?

1161
00:57:56,639 --> 00:57:59,159
Speaker 6: Maybe two or three reasons, Jay, What do you think, right?

1162
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 5: Well, I would say that, you know, between product I

1163
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,000
was raised Evangelical, Baptist.

1164
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:12,159
Speaker 3: And then Calvinists for many years, and then it spent

1165
00:58:12,199 --> 00:58:14,199
about a decade in room with autism. I would say

1166
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:18,559
that a lot of what both Roman Catholics and Protestants

1167
00:58:18,559 --> 00:58:22,320
and Evangelicals are looking for are's kind of in that

1168
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,360
midway of the Orthodox Church. So a lot of people

1169
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:29,039
are looking for while I want Bible, but it seems

1170
00:58:29,079 --> 00:58:31,599
to be like just Bible alone doesn't work, right, because

1171
00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:34,400
it's like, ultimately, at the end of the day, if

1172
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,840
you're a Protestant, you might like your pastor you might

1173
00:58:37,039 --> 00:58:41,079
like your community, but they don't really have authority. And

1174
00:58:41,199 --> 00:58:42,519
at the end of the day, it's kind of like

1175
00:58:43,519 --> 00:58:45,599
you and your Bible, right, And that's I mean, I

1176
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:50,039
know that Protestants recognize that there's an authority that elders have,

1177
00:58:50,199 --> 00:58:53,199
but I'm saying that in terms of the church, I

1178
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:57,320
think that whole thing is disastrous because there's not a

1179
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:01,360
body that can actually govern. And one thing I noticed too,

1180
00:59:01,599 --> 00:59:05,079
was that you in the in Poul's epistles, for example,

1181
00:59:05,079 --> 00:59:09,159
of the Corinthians, he says that you should excommunicate the

1182
00:59:09,199 --> 00:59:11,480
people that are really causing these troubles in the church.

1183
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:14,559
And then if you read the Councils, you know, all

1184
00:59:14,559 --> 00:59:16,480
the way up until the triumph of Orthodoxy in the

1185
00:59:16,519 --> 00:59:21,480
Southern Council and in the Sonoticon, you have the continuation

1186
00:59:21,599 --> 00:59:24,239
of the idea that the church has the authority to excommunicate.

1187
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,119
And if you're a Protestant, I mean, the only time

1188
00:59:27,159 --> 00:59:29,760
I ever encountered a Protestant ever even thinking of ex

1189
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:33,239
communicating it was in a very small Presbyterian reform group.

1190
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 5: They were the only.

1191
00:59:34,719 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 3: Protestants I've ever heard. Maybe there's Protestant churches of it,

1192
00:59:37,719 --> 00:59:39,360
and I saw I'm not saying that you should become

1193
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,960
Orthodox because people get ex communicated. It's an indicator of

1194
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,440
the fact that the ecclesiology of Protestism is kind of

1195
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:51,639
a disaster, and it's kind of a mess, and it

1196
00:59:51,719 --> 00:59:55,760
doesn't really have what we call normative authority and ethics,

1197
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,960
which is the idea that there's somebody that can entern

1198
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,880
and make a decision and buying people right. It doesn't

1199
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:06,639
necessarily make them infallible or not, you know, Papists or

1200
01:00:06,719 --> 01:00:09,960
Roman Catholics, but there is a body that has sonodal

1201
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:15,800
authority and their decisions can be made, and ultimately the

1202
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,480
Church as a totality is infallible. I think that's the

1203
01:00:18,599 --> 01:00:21,360
Orthodox position as I understand it, but not necessarily need

1204
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,039
an individual. So so the loss of that, I think

1205
01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,559
pentecostal guidance of the church. I think you'll find in

1206
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,760
the elements that are missing in Protestantism and that are

1207
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,920
missing even in Catholicism, I think genuinely are are maintained

1208
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:37,760
in the Orthodox Church.

1209
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 5: So that's one great reason is that probably a lot

1210
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,239
of what people are looking for is there.

1211
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:45,400
Speaker 3: You know, you don't want to give you a false

1212
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,719
impression that there's no problems in the Orthodox Church and

1213
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:52,440
it's all, you know, green pastures. I think my experience

1214
01:00:52,599 --> 01:00:55,719
that different bodies have different sets of problems, and there's

1215
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,239
some overlap there's going to be we have similar problems

1216
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:02,039
to other groups, but there are problems unique to Orthodoxy.

1217
01:01:02,079 --> 01:01:05,559
There's problems unique to Rome, there's problems unique to Protestantism.

1218
01:01:05,679 --> 01:01:11,000
But I think that if it's not a systemic problem.

1219
01:01:11,199 --> 01:01:14,840
For example, I would argue that in Roman Catholicism, the

1220
01:01:15,639 --> 01:01:19,639
papacy and what has tried to bind people to infallibly

1221
01:01:19,880 --> 01:01:23,159
and with dogmatic authority, that becomes a systemic level problem

1222
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:28,159
such that that system kind of can't be rescued or

1223
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:29,119
it can't function.

1224
01:01:29,199 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 5: It it doesn't work right. And I would say in Protestantism.

1225
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:36,119
Speaker 3: Because of the nature of the kind of chaotic ecclesiology,

1226
01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:37,079
it also.

1227
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 5: Is a systemic level problem. I don't think Orthodoxy has

1228
01:01:41,039 --> 01:01:45,079
those systemic level problems. It certainly has its problems.

1229
01:01:44,719 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 7: But.

1230
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 3: Systemic level problems, in my argument, would be enough to

1231
01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:52,519
cancel that out is not a good option basically. So

1232
01:01:53,159 --> 01:01:57,519
I think that beyond those kind of intellectual arguments, you know,

1233
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:00,880
Orthodoxy is very different. It's going to push you to change,

1234
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,840
it's going to push you to actually, you know, deal

1235
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:08,119
with your sins. You know you're not you're not just

1236
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:13,159
in your prayer corner mentally, you know, recounting your sins

1237
01:02:13,559 --> 01:02:17,239
with you in the Bible. You're going to be going

1238
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:20,760
through a kind of a healing I like Father Deacon,

1239
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:25,360
doctoronisis analogy or it's act like rehab. It's all go

1240
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,000
into rehab and we've got to keep going back and

1241
01:02:28,119 --> 01:02:31,239
working on uh, you know because throughout the week we relapse,

1242
01:02:31,519 --> 01:02:33,599
right like people who have addictions relapse, So well, you

1243
01:02:33,679 --> 01:02:35,000
got to go back, you gotta keep working at it.

1244
01:02:35,079 --> 01:02:38,280
So that's very different than anything I experienced in Protestantism

1245
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,960
and even roby Tholicism. In my experience is the you know,

1246
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,360
when you go to confession, it's it's just very mechanical.

1247
01:02:45,639 --> 01:02:49,760
It's very oh, here's my sins, Okay, here's your five

1248
01:02:50,239 --> 01:02:53,320
helm mares. And then it's like I might go to

1249
01:02:53,400 --> 01:02:56,000
another priest and it's that he doesn't even know, right.

1250
01:02:56,119 --> 01:03:00,159
But in Orthodox it's different because my case maybe any

1251
01:03:00,199 --> 01:03:02,920
other cases, I don't know everybody's case, but you're typically

1252
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:06,679
confessing to a spiritual father who is tracking and knowing

1253
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,639
your progress, and so he knows the medicine that you need.

1254
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,960
And that's why that mechanical system doesn't really work. I

1255
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,719
don't think if it's just a I'm here to pay

1256
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,440
my hail Mary debt and let me go back to

1257
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:19,639
do it.

1258
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,239
Speaker 5: No, it's like no, you okay, so.

1259
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:26,440
Speaker 3: You're you got this problem. Maybe you need to you know,

1260
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,880
maybe you have a problem with greed. Maybe you need

1261
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,440
to be more magnanimous this next week. You need to

1262
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:34,880
give some more money if you're greeding. Oh you got

1263
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,280
a problem with eating too much? Maybe you need to fact.

1264
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,559
You see what I'm saying that there's a the medicine

1265
01:03:39,599 --> 01:03:42,480
is applied to the difficulty, and that that's.

1266
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 5: Not anything I ever experienced in other groups. So I

1267
01:03:47,079 --> 01:03:50,000
actually think that deep down we all kind of want

1268
01:03:50,039 --> 01:03:50,519
to be healed.

1269
01:03:51,119 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 3: Right, I don't know it an Orthodox building has that

1270
01:03:53,679 --> 01:03:56,079
healing medicine facts facts.

1271
01:03:57,679 --> 01:04:00,199
Speaker 2: Amen, No, that's that's facts, like it is like, uh

1272
01:04:00,559 --> 01:04:00,960
but I.

1273
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 3: Mean it's it's hard. I mean it's tough. I mean

1274
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:04,320
I'm trying to scare people, but like, you know, it's

1275
01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:04,920
it's going to be.

1276
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 5: It's not the Christian Marines in Protestism. It's really intellectual.

1277
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 3: You can read a lot of books and argue a

1278
01:04:12,519 --> 01:04:17,679
lot and you're not challenged to work on your vices,

1279
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:18,320
you know what I mean.

1280
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 5: That's it's just different.

1281
01:04:20,119 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I say, I say all the time

1282
01:04:23,079 --> 01:04:26,199
like it. You know, Orthodoxy is almost like the Christian Marines.

1283
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:26,159
Speaker 2: In a way.

1284
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,239
Speaker 5: You know, there you go exactly.

1285
01:04:30,239 --> 01:04:32,599
Speaker 1: But before we close, I do want to ask you

1286
01:04:32,639 --> 01:04:36,239
a lighthearted question, really a real quick one here. So

1287
01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,880
I know before, like off air, we were talking about

1288
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,000
like how you know I connected with you know, we

1289
01:04:41,119 --> 01:04:43,199
talked on discord a little bit. Now I know you

1290
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:47,599
you've had things on Discord, You've had open dialogue and

1291
01:04:47,719 --> 01:04:50,039
things like that. There was a time where Deacon and

1292
01:04:50,159 --> 01:04:54,400
and I is father Deacon was debating Matt Slick and

1293
01:04:55,599 --> 01:05:02,320
you called that Slick a goblet, which is like hilarious.

1294
01:05:02,119 --> 01:05:04,519
Speaker 5: Of our pret going sorry, go ahead, are good?

1295
01:05:04,519 --> 01:05:07,639
Speaker 1: You could you called? Uh, you called Maslick a goblin?

1296
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:09,639
Did you know that that was going to become a

1297
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:11,639
music video? No.

1298
01:05:12,599 --> 01:05:15,000
Speaker 3: I think that he's a really nasty person that I've

1299
01:05:15,039 --> 01:05:17,079
had a lot of nasty interactions with in the past,

1300
01:05:17,239 --> 01:05:19,679
and so I think people clip that and they think that, oh,

1301
01:05:19,719 --> 01:05:22,239
you just like randomly wanted to call him names. Now,

1302
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,760
there's a long history of of he would come on

1303
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:26,920
the discord and we would he would just be really

1304
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,000
really nasty, and we ended up having to just cut

1305
01:05:29,079 --> 01:05:30,639
off all the communications with that guy.

1306
01:05:31,559 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 5: And there was supposed to be that day, there.

1307
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,559
Speaker 3: Was supposed to be a debate between doctor father diggon

1308
01:05:36,599 --> 01:05:41,719
Doctor and Ias, a guy named Darth Dawkins and somebody else,

1309
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:44,599
and then they brought Maslick on and so it kind

1310
01:05:44,639 --> 01:05:47,400
of surprised everybody that it didn't end up being the

1311
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:48,559
debate that everybody.

1312
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,679
Speaker 5: Thought it would be. And so, uh, no, I just

1313
01:05:51,840 --> 01:05:54,480
I just I think he's a pretty nasty person. And

1314
01:05:54,599 --> 01:05:58,719
I don't have the view that we should always never

1315
01:05:59,119 --> 01:06:00,960
call people for what they are.

1316
01:06:01,679 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe maybe I'm wrong about that. I can

1317
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:07,159
be corrected, But no, I didn't. I didn't have no idea.

1318
01:06:07,239 --> 01:06:09,559
What was I don't even know who makes a lot

1319
01:06:09,639 --> 01:06:13,480
of those You ever heard the God I'm saying, I

1320
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:15,199
don't I've heard it. I'm saying I don't know who,

1321
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:16,960
Like I don't know who these who who made that?

1322
01:06:17,119 --> 01:06:20,679
Speaker 5: No idea? So people just you know, kind of clip stuff.

1323
01:06:22,559 --> 01:06:23,119
Speaker 2: Good stuff.

1324
01:06:23,199 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 5: Man.

1325
01:06:23,519 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: Well, well thanks for addressing Calvinism, Protestant Protestantism.

1326
01:06:29,079 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 5: And and just really great questions.

1327
01:06:32,519 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 6: Thank you, Ja.

1328
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:44,599
Speaker 4: We've got a message that we want to get out,

1329
01:06:44,639 --> 01:06:46,559
and we wanted we got a message about the faith

1330
01:06:46,599 --> 01:06:50,239
and the church, and and uh, we're not hard people

1331
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:52,599
to get to know. This is not a hard faith

1332
01:06:52,719 --> 01:06:56,440
to get to know. We are opening, open and welcoming,

1333
01:06:56,599 --> 01:06:59,559
and uh we want people to to engage with us,

1334
01:06:59,639 --> 01:07:02,599
and that in many different areas, at many different levels.

1335
01:07:02,719 --> 01:07:05,039
Speaker 6: So thank you for coming on. We really appreciate that.

1336
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 5: Absolutely, thank you. And yeah, I agree with that.

1337
01:07:07,719 --> 01:07:12,719
Speaker 3: Not everybody needs to hear, you know, a detailed reputation

1338
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,199
of Tula, but some people do, all right, some people

1339
01:07:15,239 --> 01:07:15,639
do need that.

1340
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:18,360
Speaker 6: No, we had a good interaction here.

1341
01:07:18,599 --> 01:07:22,119
Speaker 4: I'm very grateful Luther, Thank you, Jay, Thank you ladies

1342
01:07:22,119 --> 01:07:25,239
and gentlemen who are watching this, Thank you, and subscribe

1343
01:07:25,719 --> 01:07:29,159
so that you can be notified of future videos coming out.

1344
01:07:29,239 --> 01:07:33,280
And we're aiming to provide quality content and really good

1345
01:07:33,360 --> 01:07:36,840
engagement on issues about our faith, about our culture, and

1346
01:07:37,599 --> 01:07:40,719
so much more. So subscribe to The Transfigured Life, and

1347
01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:41,840
thank you again for watching.

1348
01:07:44,079 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 5: Take care, y'all, have a great day. Thank you so much.

1349
01:07:49,159 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 2: Thanks.

1350
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:53,119
Speaker 7: You are not in a turk in your own excuse me,

1351
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:56,960
you're just making an assumption that all the saints agree

1352
01:07:57,400 --> 01:07:58,639
they do.

1353
01:07:59,119 --> 01:08:02,199
Speaker 5: Go read them no thing. You're a scholarly, a demon,

1354
01:08:02,480 --> 01:08:05,719
a boomer, part part a demon.

1355
01:08:05,679 --> 01:08:09,719
Speaker 7: A boomer making an assumption, and even a boomer part

1356
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:11,039
an excuse, excuse me?

1357
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 5: A demon, a boomer part part You're acholarly, even a

1358
01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:16,279
boomer part.

1359
01:08:16,119 --> 01:08:21,359
Speaker 7: Of an even a boomer part an excuse me, even

1360
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,680
a boomer part part even a boomer.

1361
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:26,640
Speaker 3: Making an assumptuous?

1362
01:08:26,800 --> 01:08:29,199
Speaker 2: Are all the councils inspired at an errant?

1363
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:36,079
Speaker 7: The ecumenicals th idea so there ecumenical sentence are inspired

1364
01:08:36,159 --> 01:08:36,800
in an errant?

1365
01:08:37,279 --> 01:08:37,680
Speaker 5: Correct