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Speaker 4: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 4: Killers in true crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 4: written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker Dck. Every week,
Speaker 4: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 4: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host
Speaker 4: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 3: Good evening from the author of First Degree Rage, The
Speaker 3: True Story of the Assassin, An Obsession and Murder. Comes
Speaker 3: the ongoing and chilling true crime sag of Elsie Underwood,
Speaker 3: the obsessively jealous police officer from North Carolina. Underwood shocked
Speaker 3: an entire city with his reign of terror in the
Speaker 3: lives of his ex fiancee, Kay Wedden, a woman he
Speaker 3: refused to let go, her son Jason, whom he despised,
Speaker 3: and her mother, Katherine Miller, who got in his way.
Speaker 3: In First degree Rage, Underwood arrogantly evaded justice for his
Speaker 3: heinous crimes until Detective Paula May in her investigative team
Speaker 3: uncovered who he really was. Because of their efforts, he
Speaker 3: was convicted for first degree kidnapping and murder of Victor Gunnerson,
Speaker 3: Kay's new boyfriend, But what was Underwood also responsible for
Speaker 3: the brutal murder of Catherine Miller that occurred mere days
Speaker 3: after Gunnerson's demise. Sentenced to life in prison plus forty years,
Speaker 3: Underwood has no intention of staying in prison and vows
Speaker 3: not to stop until he exacts revenge on those he
Speaker 3: blames for his current predicament. His thirst for revenge will
Speaker 3: not be quenched until more blood is shed. Underwood rages on,
Speaker 3: plotting his next move and listing others to perform the
Speaker 3: evil deeds he imagines wreaking havoc in the lives of
Speaker 3: k Jason, Detective May, and others. He sends them all
Speaker 3: on an emotional roller coaster ride that never seems to end.
Speaker 3: Will they ever find peace? Will Catherine Miller's murderer ever
Speaker 3: be brought to justice? Will Underwood's reign of terror ever
Speaker 3: be stopped? The book that we're featuring this evening is
Speaker 3: raging on with my special guest, detective and author Paula May.
Speaker 3: Welcome back to the program and thank you so much
Speaker 3: for this interview. Paula May, thank you, thank you so
Speaker 3: much for coming on and joining us. Again. We last
Speaker 3: spoke to you in April twenty twenty with the when
Speaker 3: we spoke to you about your book First Degree Rage,
Speaker 3: the True Story of the Assassin, Obsession and Murder again
Speaker 3: about L. C. Underwood, tell us just the little bit
Speaker 3: before we get into this incredible uh story, raging on
Speaker 3: how this is a series or it's connected to the
Speaker 3: first book, and tell us the impetus for the reason
Speaker 3: for the second book.
Speaker 5: Well, we with the conclusion of the investigation of the
Speaker 5: murderer and kimnpping of Victor Gunnerson, we were hopeful that
Speaker 5: we would continue to deal with Elsie Underwood after his trial,
Speaker 5: but unfortunately that was not the case, and his reign
Speaker 5: of terror continued even after his conviction and his sentence.
Speaker 5: And I have such an overwhelming response to First Degree
Speaker 5: Rage at the readers really uh urge me to complete
Speaker 5: the story, to tell them more about Elsie Underwood, and
Speaker 5: they were really hopeful that Catherine Miller's Martyr would be advanced.
Speaker 3: Now for those that didn't get a chance to listen
Speaker 3: to First Degree Rage, and it is important, regardless of
Speaker 3: that of that interview or listening to that interviewer, were
Speaker 3: reading that book to understand Elsie Underwood and the crimes
Speaker 3: that he did perpetrate. So you take the reader in
Speaker 3: Raging On back to December third, nineteen ninety three, but
Speaker 3: just before that, you take us to Salisbury, North Carolina,
Speaker 3: a small place of population thirty two thousand people in
Speaker 3: the county seat and located at the southeast of your
Speaker 3: hometown of Boone. So just tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: about your background and where you were as a law
Speaker 3: enforcement person at that time December ninety three.
Speaker 5: But at that time I was a detective with the
Speaker 5: local sheriff's office, which was in Wachalga County, which is
Speaker 5: in the Appalachian Mountains in northwest North Carolina. So what
Speaker 5: Chalgi County was my law enforcement jurisdiction and as a
Speaker 5: supervisor the or an investigative division. It was a Friday
Speaker 5: afternoon in a really bad winter storm went the body
Speaker 5: of Uh, an unidentified man. Uh the new nude body
Speaker 5: was found under a blanket of snow just off of
Speaker 5: the Blue Ridge Parkway, which is a National Scenic byway
Speaker 5: there in the mountains, and he had been murdered by
Speaker 5: being shot twice in the head. And it took us
Speaker 5: a few days to get him identified, and when we
Speaker 5: did learn his identity, we discovered that he had been
Speaker 5: living in Salisbury, which was uh Salisbury Police Department was
Speaker 5: where Kelsie Underwood was employed as a police officer. Having
Speaker 5: had a little over nineteen years of law enforcement experience,
Speaker 5: I didn't know him personally as at all, even though
Speaker 5: we were both in law enforcement the Chiss. Salisbury's a
Speaker 5: couple of hours away from where I lived and worked.
Speaker 5: But there was some investigators in Salisbury, which is Rowan County,
Speaker 5: and they were investigating at the time we found that
Speaker 5: Victor Gunnarson's body, he had been reported missing down there,
Speaker 5: so they were looking into that. But also they were
Speaker 5: investigating the homicide of Cave Whedon's mother, Katherine Miller. And
Speaker 5: that was a seventy seven year old lady, sweet little lady.
Speaker 5: It's still working full time, had worked at the same
Speaker 5: place for like forty years, active inner church in her community,
Speaker 5: had no enemies whatsoever, and was just very close with
Speaker 5: her own daughter, Kay and Kay's son Keathan Miller's grandson,
Speaker 5: Jason Whedon, And so that was really a Who've done it?
Speaker 5: For them? Someone had entered her home. The alarm system
Speaker 5: had been deactivated, so they believed that it was someone
Speaker 5: that she knew. She also was shot twice in the head.
Speaker 5: This but inside her her kitchen where she was preparing
Speaker 5: her New York little dinner of a little pan of
Speaker 5: beans on the stove, and she had apparently been reading
Speaker 5: the daily newspapers. And so they were in the midst
Speaker 5: of that investigation we found a Victor Donnerson's body. He
Speaker 5: had been reported missing just a few days after Katherine
Speaker 5: Miller was murdered, although he had actually been missing a
Speaker 5: few days before she was murdered. And so the common
Speaker 5: denominator in those two cases was Kay Whedon because Kay
Speaker 5: had been had just parted, in fact, a romantic relationship
Speaker 5: with Victor Gunnarson. And of course then her mother was.
Speaker 3: Margert and she contacted the police. I found it very
Speaker 3: strange that she could not put everything together. But it's easier,
Speaker 3: much easier in hindsight, isn't it. But she, after her
Speaker 3: mother's funeral, thought it was prudent to be able to
Speaker 3: contact the police and tell them a little bit of
Speaker 3: information that now police were easy, much easier, they could
Speaker 3: make some deductions from that. Right when that happened, and
Speaker 3: you became involved. What was the some of the information
Speaker 3: that you learned about this police officer of nineteen years
Speaker 3: What did you learn about Underwood?
Speaker 5: Well, mick A fairly early on after we I think,
Speaker 5: I thought Victor Gunerson and but just once, and I
Speaker 5: want to say in case offense. She had only started
Speaker 5: being Victor a week or two prior, even though they
Speaker 5: had seen each other almost daily, but so for a
Speaker 5: day or two there, even though she and Victor had
Speaker 5: made plans, she she didn't know him that well and
Speaker 5: thought maybe he just wasn't interested in pursuing relationship with her,
Speaker 5: or maybe things were progressing too fast for him. And
Speaker 5: so about the time that and she had wondered where
Speaker 5: he was and had tried to get in touch with him,
Speaker 5: even had gone by his apartment a couple of times
Speaker 5: with a friend, and he's kind of scouting things out
Speaker 5: to see if he went brown, and there was no
Speaker 5: sign of him there. But then her mother was brutally murdered,
Speaker 5: so that just put her whole life into a tail spin.
Speaker 5: And it was after her funeral when she realized she
Speaker 5: still had not heard from Victor, and then it dawned
Speaker 5: on her that perhaps something had happened to victor that
Speaker 5: he had not gone away voluntarily or he was not
Speaker 5: just blowing her off, but maybe someone had done something
Speaker 5: to him as they had done to her mother. So
Speaker 5: when I contacted the official in Salisbury and we had
Speaker 5: kay look at the jewelry that was found on our
Speaker 5: victim's body, which was a very distinctive watch and ring
Speaker 5: that she very quickly identified them because he was wearing
Speaker 5: those the last night that she spent with him, or
Speaker 5: the last evening before he went to his apartment. So
Speaker 5: after sheified those things, and then I spent that first
Speaker 5: day I spent with her, probably was eight or more
Speaker 5: hours in an interview with her, and then many times thereafter,
Speaker 5: and that's where I first learned about fili C Underwood
Speaker 5: as far as his personality and his behavior and their relationship,
Speaker 5: which was completely unacceptable. He was very, very controlling, jealous,
Speaker 5: and his behavior was just the way off the norm
Speaker 5: as far as trying to manipulate and control her, and
Speaker 5: then of course there were moments of violence. And as
Speaker 5: I began to look into Underwood's background, which became very extensive.
Speaker 5: That's a very extensive part of the investigation. He traced
Speaker 5: his background all the way back to his childhood and
Speaker 5: infancy where he was abandoned by both of his parents.
Speaker 5: He was left with an abusive uncle and when the
Speaker 5: uncle got through with them, he grew up in a
Speaker 5: children's home and an orphanage in North Carolina, and then
Speaker 5: the day he turned eighteen, he left. And his relationships
Speaker 5: all during that time were dysfunctional. But when he became
Speaker 5: an adult and found himself in adult relationships women that
Speaker 5: he either dated or married, his behavior was just extremely
Speaker 5: violent and was shocking to me that he was able
Speaker 5: to survive a career in law enforcement. But looking back
Speaker 5: and at that particular time, there was very little documentation
Speaker 5: in his personnel files about his behavior. But he would
Speaker 5: get in trouble with women, either stalking them, harass them,
Speaker 5: and sometimes there were instances of violence, and before things
Speaker 5: got too heated, he would just go to another departments.
Speaker 5: And so that was frustrating as a law enforcement officer
Speaker 5: to not find documentation of things that we were being
Speaker 5: people that happened, and people were well aware of the
Speaker 5: things that he had done, and there was physical evidence
Speaker 5: in those cases as well, and at least one woman
Speaker 5: was hospitalized with severe injuries, others their property was ventialized
Speaker 5: and because col evidence was found uh in she's possession
Speaker 5: of those vandalisms like cans of risk prey paint for instance,
Speaker 5: and so he was able to survive all of the time.
Speaker 5: But he had been at Salisbury for Police Department for
Speaker 5: eight years and he finally had gotten suspended for his
Speaker 5: talking behavior of Kay and some some conduct that was
Speaker 5: he just humiliated her into in a restaurant where she
Speaker 5: was having dinner with a male friends and that got
Speaker 5: him suspended. So there was there's a long history there
Speaker 5: and that is kind of where we I got into
Speaker 5: the I got into the story just with his relationship
Speaker 5: with Kay Whedon's mm hmm.
Speaker 3: Now he has this uh, this relationship with Kay Whedon
Speaker 3: and you mentioned stalking, which seems it is the feature
Speaker 3: that characterizes his behavior, and she had stalked. He had
Speaker 3: stalked Kay and Gunnerson and her mother at this restaurant
Speaker 3: and then had called her afterwards, which I just thought
Speaker 3: would ring with the alarm bells would go off, that
Speaker 3: he knew the details he had been stalking her that
Speaker 3: night and asked if their mother liked the new boyfriend,
Speaker 3: so she knew his behavior in that regard and then
Speaker 3: that was one of the reasons why she split up
Speaker 3: with him in the first place. We have to fast
Speaker 3: forward a little bit because you gather evidence and you
Speaker 3: talk about divine intervention in this regard to with some
Speaker 3: of this physical evidence that came together, and it's fascinating.
Speaker 3: But the thing is is that they were never able
Speaker 3: to convict him, let alone charge him for the murder
Speaker 3: of Catherine Miller. And you explained in the book why
Speaker 3: that is. Tell us why despite being able to have
Speaker 3: enough evidence to convict for the Gunnerson murder, why there
Speaker 3: was not enough evidence according to the DA, to convict
Speaker 3: for Catherine's murder.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, the district attorneys for each county,
Speaker 5: there were two different people of the prosecutors. The potential
Speaker 5: prosecutor for Catherine Miller was in Rolane County, and our
Speaker 5: case had the physical evidence as far as the monochondrial
Speaker 5: DNA analysis, which was evidence that was confirmed to be
Speaker 5: Victor Gunnerson's head hair in the trunk of Elsie Underwood's
Speaker 5: personal vehicle, and there were some other physical pieces of
Speaker 5: evidence as well. The only physical evidence in Catherine Miller's
Speaker 5: case that was able to be tied to Anderson Underwood
Speaker 5: personally was the fact that he owned a thirty eight
Speaker 5: caliber gun and that was the same making model of
Speaker 5: the one that fired the fatal raump into Catherine Miller.
Speaker 5: And then after both of the homicides, then both of
Speaker 5: the weapons that we know he had and likely used
Speaker 5: in homicides disappeared and he would he refused to produce them,
Speaker 5: so they did not have, uh the ballistic evidence that
Speaker 5: would tie the shooting of Catherine Miller to Elsie Underwood.
Speaker 5: There was a lot of circumstantial evidence, so we felt
Speaker 5: very strongly that a jury would convict based on the
Speaker 5: extensive circumstantial evidence. And and there there was some pretty
Speaker 5: significant circumstantial evidence, like multiple citizens saw vehicle matching Underwood's
Speaker 5: description at her residence at the time of her murder,
Speaker 5: but not they cannot positively identify it as he is,
Speaker 5: like they didn't have a license plate in that kind
Speaker 5: of information. But there was a lot of circumstantial information.
Speaker 5: But at the jury and our case, jury members told
Speaker 5: us that they would definitely have convicted him of Chatham
Speaker 5: Miller's murder, you know, had they been charged with making
Speaker 5: that determination. However, you know that was they weren't allowed
Speaker 5: to do that. And so initially upon under was conviction
Speaker 5: of first degree murder and first degree kidnapping of Victor Gunnarson.
Speaker 5: The district attorney, everybody was you know, pretty young ho
Speaker 5: about it. Everybody was optimistic that, you know, we just
Speaker 5: need to go ahead and uh give Chase some justice
Speaker 5: in terms of our mother's murder. And but then after
Speaker 5: some lengthy discussions and that looking at some of the
Speaker 5: four or four be evidence that's that's evidence of another
Speaker 5: murder that brought into Victor Gnnerson's murder, said the evidence
Speaker 5: in Catherine Milik's case was brought into ours. The district
Speaker 5: attorney in Roane County felt that, and of course, you know,
Speaker 5: with double jeopardy and so forth, you've only got one shot.
Speaker 5: We've only we only had one shot at Victor gnerson
Speaker 5: They only got one shot at Caatherain Miller's murder. So
Speaker 5: he's felt like that if he tried the case at
Speaker 5: that point without the physical evidence that we had, that
Speaker 5: either the jury may find him not guilty. I mean,
Speaker 5: all they had to do was, you know, agree that
Speaker 5: there was a reasonable doubt and that alone might give
Speaker 5: him uh an a an appeal that would grat him
Speaker 5: a new trial in our case overturn our conviction, or
Speaker 5: that if they convicted him of murdering Catherine Miller and
Speaker 5: he appealed something in that trial and something did not
Speaker 5: go well and and then our conviction could be overturned.
Speaker 5: So they preferred wait and hopefully find any additional evidence
Speaker 5: in the future, or if it looked like he was
Speaker 5: going to win an appeal in our case, then he
Speaker 5: would have that one holding over his head and they
Speaker 5: could then charge him. So I understand the strategy, but
Speaker 5: this strategy didn't help Kay Whedon feel like, you know,
Speaker 5: her mother's murder, had murderer had ever been brought to justice.
Speaker 5: So that was very painful for Kay and for Jason,
Speaker 5: and it was frustrating, you know, for me to know
Speaker 5: that he had killed this, this absolutely innocent lady and
Speaker 5: was never going to be charged with it. But that
Speaker 5: I also understood. You know, we definitely don't want him
Speaker 5: out of prison, and if and if he wins an
Speaker 5: appeal and gets out of prison or get some new trial,
Speaker 5: there's no you know, no guarantee of what might happen.
Speaker 5: And you know, we were everybody was safer with him
Speaker 5: in custody. So that's that's how that happened. And we
Speaker 5: didn't feel like that we would have any additional evidence
Speaker 5: to find unless somehow the guns turned up. Because we
Speaker 5: had investigated the case for almost four years. The four
Speaker 5: of us are investigative team together was Salisbury and US,
Speaker 5: so we weren't optimistic that new evidence would be found,
Speaker 5: but at the same time, we didn't want to risk
Speaker 5: lose in our case either.
Speaker 3: Now you talk about some practical terms of a life
Speaker 3: sentence plus forty years, and you make sure that we
Speaker 3: understand it's consecutive sentencing, not concurrent, so twenty plus forty
Speaker 3: but in real time, what does that really turn out
Speaker 3: to be? And then once he's behind bars, like you say,
Speaker 3: Kay doesn't feel safe, but neither do you and there's
Speaker 3: a reason for that. So tell us why you don't
Speaker 3: feel so safe? What happens? But also how many years
Speaker 3: in practical terms before he may be eligible for parole?
Speaker 3: What does this sentence really mean?
Speaker 5: So at that particular time, the sentencing laws were such
Speaker 5: that a life sentence equated to about twenty years, but
Speaker 5: that did not that did not allow for things like
Speaker 5: earned good time and credit for different things that he
Speaker 5: could earn and in fact, he had gone before parole
Speaker 5: board before twenty years was up, and so that forty
Speaker 5: years on top was designed to help the life sentence
Speaker 5: actually be a physical life sentence, and that was a
Speaker 5: sentence that was imposed by the judge. But jury only
Speaker 5: made the decision for Ifford, and they were eleven one
Speaker 5: in favor of the death pelts.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, we were talking about that sentence, and your
Speaker 3: your response was a little garbled, but okay, you talked
Speaker 3: about you talked about the practical, the twenty years that
Speaker 3: it would be, and but he'd already had a parole
Speaker 3: hearing in that twenty years, so there was still fear
Speaker 3: every time that possibility happened. And there was so many
Speaker 3: other programs where he could get good time off, so
Speaker 3: that there really was a palatable fear that he may
Speaker 3: be released. But let's talk about how you became, just
Speaker 3: along with Ka, fearful for your life.
Speaker 5: Certainly I had in the in the beginning when the
Speaker 5: investigation was going on, and shortly after his arrest, he
Speaker 5: apparently fixated on me as far as I was the
Speaker 5: only female on the team. I was the lead detective
Speaker 5: in the gunners and case, which was what he was
Speaker 5: being charged with, even though he knew what the subjects
Speaker 5: of the investigation and the Catherine Miller murder. So I
Speaker 5: think that he thought his best bet, as far as
Speaker 5: trying to gain sympathy or manipulate someone in the case,
Speaker 5: was to choose me. And so at first he would
Speaker 5: not have anything to do with anybody else in the case.
Speaker 5: If he spoke to anybody at all, it was only me,
Speaker 5: and we did not expect that he would ever even
Speaker 5: agree to an interview, and he really did not. But
Speaker 5: one Saturday night, shortly after his arrest and he had
Speaker 5: the jailer contacted me and said he wanted to talk,
Speaker 5: but he would only talk to me. So I went
Speaker 5: to the jail and he and I sad that in
Speaker 5: the room alone beside, alone with each other in the jail,
Speaker 5: and we talked. He made an effort at that time
Speaker 5: to try to extract from me what evidence there was
Speaker 5: against him. He was trying to interview me or interrogate
Speaker 5: me instead of the other way around, which I was
Speaker 5: not a surprise coming from somebody else, you know, that
Speaker 5: had been a law enforcement for so many years, And
Speaker 5: when that did not go his way, he became unfriendly
Speaker 5: with me, and in fact, in that particular meeting is
Speaker 5: where I got a taste firsthand of just how his
Speaker 5: demeanor changed and a tiny bit of the rage that
Speaker 5: he held inside. And that's when his eyes went dark,
Speaker 5: and there was a very real presence of evil there
Speaker 5: that was manifested at that time in my presence. And
Speaker 5: so after that we had a bond hearing. He was
Speaker 5: given no bond upon his arrest, but his court appointed
Speaker 5: attorneys very quickly filed invasion for a bond reduction or
Speaker 5: or setting up a bond. And at that particular hearing,
Speaker 5: I testified that I did not think that he should
Speaker 5: be released because I thought he was a danger to
Speaker 5: be released after he realized that he was going to
Speaker 5: be charged with that murder, and that he was a
Speaker 5: danger to these other women in their relationships, and that
Speaker 5: they had given us interviews which he was now entitled
Speaker 5: to discovery, and so forth, and he became he hated
Speaker 5: He all of a sudden hated me so bad. At
Speaker 5: that point, as we took him back to the jails
Speaker 5: from the courthouse, he called me everything that a built
Speaker 5: cow in the jail and just enraged. He was so angry,
Speaker 5: and while he was serving for a while he was
Speaker 5: awaiting trial. In the jail, he drew pictures of me.
Speaker 5: He he just made horrible statements about me to other people,
Speaker 5: and it was very obvious that I was I had
Speaker 5: become the center of his attention, you know, for that
Speaker 5: period of time that did not go away. I think
Speaker 5: during the trial he focused on another SBA agent, Don
Speaker 5: Gel and the prosecutor at trom Raser and uh and
Speaker 5: then and me. So he was not only he did
Speaker 5: not only have the evil directed towards kay Whedon, but
Speaker 5: he had focused on us as well, but me in particular.
Speaker 5: I found out later while he was in prison that
Speaker 5: he plotted and planned too to kill me and along
Speaker 5: with my husband and my my daughter who was a
Speaker 5: toddler at the time, in our house one night, and
Speaker 5: he had enlisted another person who was about to get
Speaker 5: out of prison and paid that person money. I was
Speaker 5: in the process of paying that person money as well
Speaker 5: as who we believe also was the prosecutor was another
Speaker 5: target of his as well. So I have now been
Speaker 5: in law enforcement more than three two years and many times,
Speaker 5: you know, we've received threats and you know, so forth.
Speaker 5: But for lack of time, I won't go into all
Speaker 5: the details. But in this particular instance with Elsie Underwood,
Speaker 5: I mean, he had gone to great links to make
Speaker 5: it happen, and so I was fearful of him, and
Speaker 5: I didn't have to deal with that. Now you have
Speaker 5: to go on with your life. But that cloud of
Speaker 5: fear never really goes away. And so at any given
Speaker 5: point he could have escaped from prison, and I was
Speaker 5: well aware the people do that all the time. You
Speaker 5: know that certainly was not beyond the realm of possibility,
Speaker 5: So you know that was what that was what was
Speaker 5: different in this particular case for me personally.
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Speaker 3: doc dot com slash true murder now, Paula, we were
Speaker 3: talking about this threat that was a real threat from
Speaker 3: Elsie under Would from behind the bars of prison. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, you're always open to the idea
Speaker 3: of evidence, and a strange thing happens when Elsie Underwood
Speaker 3: contacts authorities to complain about a woman he met in
Speaker 3: prison named Lisa Collins. Tell us about this complaint and
Speaker 3: what it leads to and what you're curious about once
Speaker 3: you hear this complaint from Elsie Underwood about this woman, Well.
Speaker 5: I have to tell you that it was pretty bizarre
Speaker 5: receiving a letter and a complaint from Underwood asking me
Speaker 5: to investigate a case where he was the alleged victim
Speaker 5: of a financial fraud. And so what he was requesting though,
Speaker 5: is that we look into he had given this girl
Speaker 5: and incidentally, he met Lisa while he was awaiting trial
Speaker 5: in jail in with Hogi County, and he had given
Speaker 5: her access to his credit cards and because she was
Speaker 5: his girlfriend from Afar, and as it turned out, she
Speaker 5: took him for a ride apparently and UH maxed out
Speaker 5: the credit cards and so forth with her on expenses. UH.
Speaker 5: But he wanted her prosecuted. And but the the crimes
Speaker 5: had not occurred in our jurisdiction, so it would Yeah,
Speaker 5: it wasn't not appropriate for me to be investigating that
Speaker 5: particular those particular charges. UH anyway, and already referred him
Speaker 5: to UH the appropriate agency, but for investigation. But that
Speaker 5: is how we learned about Lisa and UH their relationship.
Speaker 5: And even though the relationship ended temporarily I guess because
Speaker 5: of the fraud, of the defrauding of one another, their relationship,
Speaker 5: unbeknown to us, continued because they remained in contact over
Speaker 5: the years that even while he was in prison.
Speaker 3: But what does she say which piques your interest once
Speaker 3: you get to speak to her once, pardon me, once
Speaker 3: your part of your team gets to speak to her. Yes,
Speaker 3: do you want to get some tangible details, something worth something?
Speaker 3: And what does this woman? What does woman have to
Speaker 3: say that she learned in a prison and how she
Speaker 3: learned this information?
Speaker 5: Well, it was very interesting. Terry Agner and Don Gale,
Speaker 5: the Olsbury Authority's that had had located her, and actually
Speaker 5: they had attempted to locate her and was unsuccessful at
Speaker 5: doing that, and then she reached out to them after
Speaker 5: she had refused to talk with them. I think it
Speaker 5: was during a period most likely when she and Elsie
Speaker 5: Underwood were arguing or estranged for a period of time.
Speaker 5: But anyway, when they ultimately he got taught to her,
Speaker 5: what she told them was pretty amazing because during all
Speaker 5: of the years of the investigation, which was almost four years,
Speaker 5: and throughout you know, waiting for the trial and so forth.
Speaker 5: Elsie had not admitted to anyone that he had kidnapped
Speaker 5: or murdered Victor Gunnarson or had anything to do with
Speaker 5: Captain Miller's murder. And what Lisa told them was that
Speaker 5: as she and Elsie had gotten romantically involved in the
Speaker 5: jail in Watagi County by themselves being directly across from
Speaker 5: each other, he ultimately confessed to her. He told her
Speaker 5: that and in sort of a bragging way, that he
Speaker 5: had kidnapped and murdered Victor Gunnarson, and that he had
Speaker 5: also killed Kaye's mother. Lisa, her credibility was really suffering,
Speaker 5: but she did share with us some of the information
Speaker 5: that had not been publicized that she would have had
Speaker 5: begotten from someone who knew about the details of the murder,
Speaker 5: and so she was able to tell us things that
Speaker 5: we already knew but that were not public knowledge. So
Speaker 5: that gave her some credibility now. So the investigators there
Speaker 5: talked with their district attorney and he was had some
Speaker 5: serious concerns about Lisa being able to testify to those
Speaker 5: things and her credibility, and even before he would have
Speaker 5: a chance to make a decision, Lisa would be gone
Speaker 5: and be out of communication and wouldn't was uncooperative again,
Speaker 5: So she was she was unreliable as well as uncooperative
Speaker 5: at times, and so the district attorney felt like that's
Speaker 5: just not enough. You know, she you know, anybody can
Speaker 5: claim that that she read this stuff in the newspaper
Speaker 5: or heard about it somewhere and is making it up
Speaker 5: to help herself out of trouble, because she was in
Speaker 5: trouble in and out of prison, and she had a
Speaker 5: history of not violent crimes, but uh uh, she had
Speaker 5: history of drug abuse and also a long strain of
Speaker 5: frauds that she had committed against people, financial frauds.
Speaker 3: There was also this idea that she asked where those
Speaker 3: weapons were disposed of, And that's pretty crucial to a trial,
Speaker 3: isn't it? The murder weapons? So what did you say
Speaker 3: to her? And then what was your investigative team's response
Speaker 3: to that location supposedly of those guns?
Speaker 5: Well, just in a nutshelle, she led the investigators on
Speaker 5: a wild news chase. She had actually two or three
Speaker 5: stories about what he where he told her the weapons were,
Speaker 5: and also that she had physically seen them and she
Speaker 5: probably did physically see them, whether she disposed of them
Speaker 5: or disposed of them for him, or actually had done
Speaker 5: anything with the weapons at all. That we may never
Speaker 5: know the answer to that, at least not the truthful answer.
Speaker 5: She's given that couple of, well more than a couple
Speaker 5: of different stories about where the weapons are. But she
Speaker 5: did she had a map. She drew a map of
Speaker 5: where she had last seen the weapons, and they were
Speaker 5: buried in the state of Ohio. Investigators went to Ohio
Speaker 5: but were unable to locate the weapon. So there was
Speaker 5: an issue of her credibility, so that it's the attorney had
Speaker 5: a good point about that. But we also knew that
Speaker 5: she and she alone still being in contact with ELC
Speaker 5: and in a relationship such as that Elsie planned to
Speaker 5: marry her as soon as he won an appeal or
Speaker 5: was else for otherwise able to get out of prison.
Speaker 5: And that was what he planned all along, and that's
Speaker 5: what she had agreed to. Now, whether she really meant
Speaker 5: that or not, you know, that was between them, him
Speaker 5: and her, But she hadn't convinced that she meant it,
Speaker 5: so we did. At at one point she agreed to
Speaker 5: wear a recorder, and there was a number of phone
Speaker 5: conversations that were recorded, but but he would not talk
Speaker 5: about the murders over the phone. He said he would
Speaker 5: only talk about those in person. And so she agreed
Speaker 5: to go and visit him and wear a recording device,
Speaker 5: and she was able to talk with him.
Speaker 3: Now in this because you get a copy of this,
Speaker 3: you are interested in this, You want to hear this,
Speaker 3: and now for the reader and for yourself and later
Speaker 3: for k But you get some details from this. And
Speaker 3: to her credit, she very well acts like an informant
Speaker 3: in terms of almost like she was already very very
Speaker 3: coached and very very prepared to betray this person to
Speaker 3: gather this information. She said, because it's just not right
Speaker 3: that he killed this old lady. But she still had
Speaker 3: a thing for him, and that made her unreliable. But
Speaker 3: in this tour, credit she does an admirable job betraying
Speaker 3: him and getting details of Catherine Miller's murder and Victor
Speaker 3: Gunnerson's murder as well.
Speaker 5: She did an amazing job. Lisa is very intelligent, and
Speaker 5: I think she was the one woman that Elsie in
Speaker 5: his personal relationships, can not control, and that probably appealed
Speaker 5: to him on some level. But Lisa had been out
Speaker 5: of the system herself, and she was pretty tough. She's
Speaker 5: a pretty tough picky but yes, she did a great
Speaker 5: job of extracting information from him and getting him to talk.
Speaker 5: And when she got him started talking, he was very detailed,
Speaker 5: and she said, and her her argument was, I can't
Speaker 5: you know, I don't I don't mind so much about
Speaker 5: Victor Gunnerson that there's no excuse for you killing this
Speaker 5: little little lady that I had never bothered anyone. And
Speaker 5: she said it, so in order for me to get
Speaker 5: you know, to get past that, I have so many
Speaker 5: questions in my head. I need you to just tell
Speaker 5: me everything about what happened, you know, and let's then
Speaker 5: let's put it behind us. And that was the tactic
Speaker 5: she used to get him to talk. And did she
Speaker 5: ever he gave He gave her information and indirectly us
Speaker 5: of how of each step he took and how how
Speaker 5: he actually carried out each of the each of the cases,
Speaker 5: the kidnapping and murder of Victor Gunnarson and the brutal
Speaker 5: murder of Catherine Miller as well. So at that point,
Speaker 5: we think we've got great evidence. I listened to the
Speaker 5: according I had heard bits and pieces of it over
Speaker 5: the phone, it was distorted and hard to hear, but
Speaker 5: when I listened to the tape itself, I did not
Speaker 5: have any trouble understanding what he was saying. And so
Speaker 5: that's the point that I was really super disappointed with
Speaker 5: the prosecutors in Salisbury because I felt like, finally there
Speaker 5: was a confession, it was obtained lawfully, and it was
Speaker 5: his own words telling exactly what he did. And not
Speaker 5: only the words and the and the physical things that
Speaker 5: he did, but also the total lack of remorse in
Speaker 5: his voice was very apparent.
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Speaker 3: Now? You talked about this clear, at least to you,
Speaker 3: was a clear confession of Catherine Miller's murder and why.
Speaker 3: And again, to her credit, she challenged him when he
Speaker 3: first gave a story was something she said, Nah, that
Speaker 3: doesn't even make sense. Tell me the real reason. And
Speaker 3: so she really did push him to get that kind
Speaker 3: of information. Some of the details too, That again is
Speaker 3: for the reader to read. Some of these details of
Speaker 3: what Underwood said to Gunnerson again this full humiliation, asked
Speaker 3: him personal questions about the relationship with k he said,
Speaker 3: even asked him if he had slept with him, where
Speaker 3: he had slapped them, if the if he liked the mother.
Speaker 3: All of these details come out just to highlight his
Speaker 3: psychopathic mind on full display here now with those details
Speaker 3: you said that are very clear on that tape despite
Speaker 3: it having audio problems, Again, why does the prosecutor decline
Speaker 3: to use those that evidence?
Speaker 5: I don't know that I can. I can give you
Speaker 5: a really sound reason.
Speaker 3: He doesn't.
Speaker 5: He makes compelling arguments about his decision, and it comes
Speaker 5: down to you. It's his discretion and his decision. But
Speaker 5: and he's he's an honorable man. I don't want to
Speaker 5: imply that that miss Kimnerley is not. But the investigators
Speaker 5: are quick to jump to his defense as well. You know,
Speaker 5: they say, he's not afraid to try a k he
Speaker 5: has a very solid history of successful prosecution. But he
Speaker 5: still was he didn't feel like that the jury would
Speaker 5: be able to hear the tape. Clearly, he did not feel.
Speaker 5: He felt like that lista that the defense would just
Speaker 5: tear her to shreds and maybe even get the whole
Speaker 5: entire thing uh thrown out, in which case we would
Speaker 5: be back at square one. So he was he was
Speaker 5: trying to be cautious. But but I I just personally
Speaker 5: I was, I was disappointed that that that that was
Speaker 5: was not satisfying him. Uh Kay eventually heard the confession,
Speaker 5: and I think that brought her some degree of I
Speaker 5: guess he in some way or some kind of satisfaction
Speaker 5: that she finally got to hear out of his own mouth.
Speaker 5: You know that he admitted to killing your mother, because
Speaker 5: you know, no one's ever charged, even though everybody's confident
Speaker 5: about what happens. You know, she didn't never really know
Speaker 5: for certain. But once she heard it come out of
Speaker 5: his mouth. There's no doubt whatsoever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he had said, he had said originally to
Speaker 3: K two that when he was whining. Once he realized,
Speaker 3: once he realized that she was with another man at
Speaker 3: the restaurant with the mother that she said, he said, Oh,
Speaker 3: your mother never liked me. She hated me. And despite
Speaker 3: Kay saying no, she never hated anybody. We never really
Speaker 3: get the details of exactly what he said to this
Speaker 3: woman before he murdered her. But there was absolutely no
Speaker 3: good reason whatsoever to go to her home for any
Speaker 3: reason except to kill the seventy seven year old sweet woman. Right.
Speaker 5: That's correct, because there's no logic behind anything that he did.
Speaker 5: But certainly not concerning Captain Miller. I think that some
Speaker 5: of the readers can relate to maybe some extreme jealousy
Speaker 5: and that kind of thing. But you have to understand
Speaker 5: Elsie's background and the fact that he had severe issues
Speaker 5: and abandoned the issues from not having his mother, and
Speaker 5: he resented even the fact that Ka even had had
Speaker 5: a loving mother, much less the fact that she was
Speaker 5: trying to say, Kay, this is not a good relationship.
Speaker 5: You need to get away from this man. I mean
Speaker 5: Captain Miller was verious to very wise and was trying
Speaker 5: to give her daughter good advice, but unfortunately Essie Underwood
Speaker 5: was aware of that and infuriated him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's incredible to the effect on as you write too,
Speaker 3: because later you're interviewed and part of your team is
Speaker 3: interviewed as well, and this is called Dead of Winter.
Speaker 3: I'm getting ahead of myself, but at least the effect
Speaker 3: on yourself, your family, your husband, your daughter, everybody, Kay's family,
Speaker 3: her son, and rather than just you know, the effect
Speaker 3: that this case had on you for a series of
Speaker 3: number of years. And part of the information at least
Speaker 3: it was able to provide too, was confirmation that Elsie
Speaker 3: Underwood was the person that shot at the bedroom at Jason.
Speaker 3: And luckily you say that, luckily they just moved the
Speaker 3: rearrange the furniture. Otherwise he might have been shot right
Speaker 3: in the head or likely would have been shot head. Yes,
Speaker 3: and Jason always yeah, absolutely, and Jason too really held
Speaker 3: was had a lot of animosity for his mother because
Speaker 3: she brought this person into their lives and into being
Speaker 3: the person that killed his grandmother. So yes, what you
Speaker 3: do right about is that one good part of this
Speaker 3: and we'll talk about that in a minute. Is that
Speaker 3: reconciliation over time in this story between Jason and his mother?
Speaker 3: So back to this prosecution, it isn't going to happen.
Speaker 3: How does Kay feel about that? And does it end there?
Speaker 3: In terms of her desire to have him prosecuted for
Speaker 3: her mother's murder.
Speaker 5: Kay was in shock, frankly, because the prosecutor actually attended
Speaker 5: the same church as her mother and knew her mother,
Speaker 5: and all of a sudden, you know, he's not speaking
Speaker 5: with Kay. She found out through a letter. Now it's
Speaker 5: typical for there to be an official letter, you know,
Speaker 5: it's from a prosecutor, you know, stating whether he will
Speaker 5: or we'll not prosecuted case and explanations why if he doesn't.
Speaker 5: But Kay was really personally offended, I think because he
Speaker 5: had not reached out to her directly, He had not
Speaker 5: called her or asked her to come by. She just
Speaker 5: finds out through a letter in the mail, and that
Speaker 5: the case is he's not going to prosecute Kay. And
Speaker 5: so Kay has had a fairly unhappy and fearful adult life.
Speaker 5: And it's sad, it's tragic, not just because of Victor
Speaker 5: Gunnarson and her mother, but because of her strange relationship,
Speaker 5: or at least her strained relationship with her son, who
Speaker 5: I think for many years on some level blamed Kay
Speaker 5: for bringing Elsie Underwood into their lives, and of course
Speaker 5: you can understand that to some of it as well.
Speaker 5: But until we were contacted by the investigation Discovery and
Speaker 5: the producers of the TV show Dead of Winter, until
Speaker 5: we were contacted by them asking us, me and Kay
Speaker 5: and Kay's son Jason to appear on the show and
Speaker 5: consent to an interview to discuss the case, that is
Speaker 5: the point that Kay and Jason actually sit down with
Speaker 5: one another and talked about what happened. Of course, Jason
Speaker 5: has grown up, you know, since then and was married,
Speaker 5: and so that was the beginning of the reconciliation between
Speaker 5: he and his mother, and so all of those years
Speaker 5: before that, you know, I just really hurt for Kay
Speaker 5: and for Jason too. This Elsie Underwood took so much
Speaker 5: more from them than just those two individuals.
Speaker 3: What you learned, though, is something and what you impart
Speaker 3: to them as well, is that in those details from
Speaker 3: Lisa Collins is that she asked them about going back
Speaker 3: to Catherine's Miller's home. What did he go back to
Speaker 3: Catherine Miller's home to do? What was his intention when
Speaker 3: he went back.
Speaker 5: He went back to make it look like a robbery,
Speaker 5: And of course he didn't do a very good job
Speaker 5: of it. Pull some drawers out of the bedroom and
Speaker 5: dump those on the floor, knocks some magazines off of
Speaker 5: the coffee table in the living room, and that kind
Speaker 5: of thing. But there were guns in the house, there
Speaker 5: was jewelry in the house, there was money in the
Speaker 5: house that wasn't touched. I mean, it was clearly not
Speaker 5: a robbery. But he he had gone back, I believe,
Speaker 5: he told Lisa about half an hour after after he
Speaker 5: killed Catherine and fled. Initially he went back, and it
Speaker 5: was at one of one of those times that other
Speaker 5: people saw his car there in the in the vicinity
Speaker 5: of Catherine Miller's home. But he went back to make
Speaker 5: it appear to be a robbery. And Lisa specifically asked him,
Speaker 5: did you check Catherine? Did you check her to see
Speaker 5: if if she was breathing, if she had a pulse,
Speaker 5: And he did not inspact, He avoided looking at her.
Speaker 2: And.
Speaker 5: He said he knew when he shot her. He shot
Speaker 5: her in the head that she was dead. But you
Speaker 5: know Lisa's she told us, you know that she had
Speaker 5: asked him even before, you know, could you not at
Speaker 5: least have called nine one one anonymously and have them
Speaker 5: go and just you know. But of course he had
Speaker 5: no conscience about that, so he did not do that.
Speaker 5: And so there were details like that that we learned
Speaker 5: because of Lisa and her efforts. Now, I will say
Speaker 5: that since that time Lisa, Lisa has overcome a lot
Speaker 5: of problems that she had in life, like the drug
Speaker 5: abuse and so forth. And I'm still in touch with
Speaker 5: Lisa to some degree, and she is trying to improve
Speaker 5: her life and have a better life. She's no longer
Speaker 5: in North Carolina, and I only wish her the best.
Speaker 5: I only wish her success with that, and I do
Speaker 5: appreciate what she did for us.
Speaker 3: Is Kay appreciative of what Lisa did as well? And
Speaker 3: even though there was no conviction for her mother's murder,
Speaker 3: does she feel better knowing more information rather than less?
Speaker 5: She does, in the sense that it confirms what she
Speaker 5: had thought and what we had told her all along.
Speaker 5: It gives her more of a sense of closure, I guess,
Speaker 5: just knowing, just being able to hear from his own
Speaker 5: voice what he did. Since she, you know, has not
Speaker 5: gotten any justice from the Colinal justice system. And she
Speaker 5: she understands to some degree the arguments, well, she she
Speaker 5: does understand the arguments about not not prosecuting Underwood for
Speaker 5: her mother's murder, but they still didn't satisfy her, you know,
Speaker 5: and probably it never would and it never would for anyone.
Speaker 5: And even even if he would prosecuted, even if he
Speaker 5: were convicted for her mother's murder, you know, it's never enough.
Speaker 5: It's never enough, because you know, the loss is so great.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 3: You talked about your own retirement, thinking about retiring in
Speaker 3: twenty and eighteen, and that came true in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 3: in January. But your last ten years you were chief
Speaker 3: of police in King North Carolina. So what happens on
Speaker 3: Christmas Day two thousand and eighteen, who do you get
Speaker 3: call from?
Speaker 5: Well? I don't know if I should have a spoiler alert,
Speaker 5: you know, you know before we talk about this, or
Speaker 5: if I shouldn't say something something did happen that did
Speaker 5: bring me some release and some and some comfort.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll just.
Speaker 5: Tell you that, Okay, all right, I can tell that
Speaker 5: even though all throughout my law enforcement career and even
Speaker 5: now I'm still I'm still sworn to keep my serve occasion,
Speaker 5: but I have retired from full time service. But there
Speaker 5: wasn't hardly any time, any any days or weeks that
Speaker 5: gone by that that something did not make me think
Speaker 5: of Underwood and wonder and worry about what might happen
Speaker 5: if he got his way.
Speaker 3: We didn't really go into this palpable fear that you
Speaker 3: had and your family, your husband, Randy, who was a
Speaker 3: probation officer, I believe, and just to fear for your
Speaker 3: family because as you and again we didn't go into
Speaker 3: too much because but it is a central part of this,
Speaker 3: this real fear that you had because he did hire
Speaker 3: somebody to check you out, and you afterwards with this
Speaker 3: this fear. You also had this apprehension. So things happened
Speaker 3: where you you grab a shotgun in your own life
Speaker 3: and you say off duty you were, you were carrying
Speaker 3: a gun as well. So this is not to be
Speaker 3: again on this is not you're not exaggerating when you're
Speaker 3: saying that this really, for many years was a fear
Speaker 3: that you experienced almost daily.
Speaker 5: That's right, and I could not allow it to be
Speaker 5: a crippling fear, but it was a fear that was
Speaker 5: always present. You can never get away from it no
Speaker 5: matter where you are, because he or his representative could
Speaker 5: always show up, and that that was just a very
Speaker 5: real possibility.
Speaker 4: M M.
Speaker 3: Certainly with this book the first book, First Degree Rage,
Speaker 3: that was released last year, this book, Raging On has
Speaker 3: also been released by Wild Boo Press First Degree Murder.
Speaker 3: First Degree Murder did so well that you've decided that
Speaker 3: people should learn more about this case. And of course
Speaker 3: it really does deserve to have two books because it's
Speaker 3: that involved a story. And I'm happy that you came
Speaker 3: on tonight and talked about the second part of this
Speaker 3: and we did have to do a recap somewhat of
Speaker 3: what had happened and who else the Underwood was and
Speaker 3: why these murders occurred in the first place. I want
Speaker 3: to thank you so much for talking about your new book,
Speaker 3: Raging On. For those that might want to take a
Speaker 3: look at this work, can you tell us more where
Speaker 3: they might find this book and if you have a website, Facebook, Instagram,
Speaker 3: any of those kinds of things for contact.
Speaker 5: Sure they can obtain the book and a number of outlets.
Speaker 5: Certainly Amazon has First Degree Rage and Raging On. They
Speaker 5: are available in kindle, audible as well as paperback and
Speaker 5: my publisher's website. I have a web page there as well,
Speaker 5: that's why the Blue Press dot com. And there's more information,
Speaker 5: there's blog and some extra information there on that website,
Speaker 5: and it's also available at Walmart dot com and some
Speaker 5: other book outlets as well. First Degree Rage that did
Speaker 5: come out last April at twenty twenty, and Raging On
Speaker 5: was just released in July.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Paula May for coming on and
Speaker 3: talking about Raging On. It's been an absolute pleasure. You
Speaker 3: have a great evening and hope to talk to you
Speaker 3: again soon. You have a great night.
Speaker 5: Thank you for having me you too, good night, good night,