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Jump chumpacasino dot com. 21 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:57.799 NOE just necessary boid. 22 00:00:57.799 --> 00:00:59.520 We're prohibited to my long eighteen plus terms and conditioned 23 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:00.439 plice Let's detail. 24 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:11.799 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 25 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:14.920 Killers in true crime History and the authors that have 26 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:22.560 written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker Dck. Every week, 27 00:01:22.719 --> 00:01:26.560 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 28 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.599 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host 29 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:33.920 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 30 00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:47.359 Good evening from the author of First Degree Rage, The 31 00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:51.959 True Story of the Assassin, An Obsession and Murder. Comes 32 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.200 the ongoing and chilling true crime sag of Elsie Underwood, 33 00:01:55.959 --> 00:02:00.879 the obsessively jealous police officer from North Carolina. Underwood shocked 34 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:02.920 an entire city with his reign of terror in the 35 00:02:02.959 --> 00:02:05.959 lives of his ex fiancee, Kay Wedden, a woman he 36 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:09.759 refused to let go, her son Jason, whom he despised, 37 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:12.840 and her mother, Katherine Miller, who got in his way. 38 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:17.319 In First degree Rage, Underwood arrogantly evaded justice for his 39 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:21.319 heinous crimes until Detective Paula May in her investigative team 40 00:02:21.840 --> 00:02:25.719 uncovered who he really was. Because of their efforts, he 41 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:29.840 was convicted for first degree kidnapping and murder of Victor Gunnerson, 42 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:35.560 Kay's new boyfriend, But what was Underwood also responsible for 43 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:38.439 the brutal murder of Catherine Miller that occurred mere days 44 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:44.159 after Gunnerson's demise. Sentenced to life in prison plus forty years, 45 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:47.719 Underwood has no intention of staying in prison and vows 46 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:51.439 not to stop until he exacts revenge on those he 47 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:55.879 blames for his current predicament. His thirst for revenge will 48 00:02:55.879 --> 00:03:00.800 not be quenched until more blood is shed. Underwood rages on, 49 00:03:01.199 --> 00:03:04.240 plotting his next move and listing others to perform the 50 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.439 evil deeds he imagines wreaking havoc in the lives of 51 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:12.319 k Jason, Detective May, and others. He sends them all 52 00:03:12.840 --> 00:03:15.960 on an emotional roller coaster ride that never seems to end. 53 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:20.759 Will they ever find peace? Will Catherine Miller's murderer ever 54 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:25.240 be brought to justice? Will Underwood's reign of terror ever 55 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:28.599 be stopped? The book that we're featuring this evening is 56 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:34.159 raging on with my special guest, detective and author Paula May. 57 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:36.680 Welcome back to the program and thank you so much 58 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:43.000 for this interview. Paula May, thank you, thank you so 59 00:03:43.120 --> 00:03:46.360 much for coming on and joining us. Again. We last 60 00:03:46.360 --> 00:03:49.840 spoke to you in April twenty twenty with the when 61 00:03:49.840 --> 00:03:52.360 we spoke to you about your book First Degree Rage, 62 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.280 the True Story of the Assassin, Obsession and Murder again 63 00:03:56.319 --> 00:04:00.439 about L. C. Underwood, tell us just the little bit 64 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:06.879 before we get into this incredible uh story, raging on 65 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.280 how this is a series or it's connected to the 66 00:04:10.319 --> 00:04:14.240 first book, and tell us the impetus for the reason 67 00:04:14.360 --> 00:04:15.840 for the second book. 68 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:24.279 Well, we with the conclusion of the investigation of the 69 00:04:24.399 --> 00:04:29.759 murderer and kimnpping of Victor Gunnerson, we were hopeful that 70 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:36.160 we would continue to deal with Elsie Underwood after his trial, 71 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:41.519 but unfortunately that was not the case, and his reign 72 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:47.079 of terror continued even after his conviction and his sentence. 73 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:52.680 And I have such an overwhelming response to First Degree 74 00:04:52.839 --> 00:05:01.839 Rage at the readers really uh urge me to complete 75 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:06.360 the story, to tell them more about Elsie Underwood, and 76 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:13.040 they were really hopeful that Catherine Miller's Martyr would be advanced. 77 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:17.920 Now for those that didn't get a chance to listen 78 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.879 to First Degree Rage, and it is important, regardless of 79 00:05:21.959 --> 00:05:24.759 that of that interview or listening to that interviewer, were 80 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:29.480 reading that book to understand Elsie Underwood and the crimes 81 00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:32.480 that he did perpetrate. So you take the reader in 82 00:05:32.639 --> 00:05:37.199 Raging On back to December third, nineteen ninety three, but 83 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:40.639 just before that, you take us to Salisbury, North Carolina, 84 00:05:41.360 --> 00:05:45.040 a small place of population thirty two thousand people in 85 00:05:45.079 --> 00:05:49.639 the county seat and located at the southeast of your 86 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:52.240 hometown of Boone. So just tell us a little bit 87 00:05:52.279 --> 00:05:55.759 about your background and where you were as a law 88 00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.879 enforcement person at that time December ninety three. 89 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.639 But at that time I was a detective with the 90 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:08.040 local sheriff's office, which was in Wachalga County, which is 91 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:12.079 in the Appalachian Mountains in northwest North Carolina. So what 92 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:17.480 Chalgi County was my law enforcement jurisdiction and as a 93 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:22.399 supervisor the or an investigative division. It was a Friday 94 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:26.839 afternoon in a really bad winter storm went the body 95 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:32.480 of Uh, an unidentified man. Uh the new nude body 96 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:36.040 was found under a blanket of snow just off of 97 00:06:36.079 --> 00:06:40.160 the Blue Ridge Parkway, which is a National Scenic byway 98 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:44.839 there in the mountains, and he had been murdered by 99 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:47.360 being shot twice in the head. And it took us 100 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:51.279 a few days to get him identified, and when we 101 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:54.680 did learn his identity, we discovered that he had been 102 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:59.639 living in Salisbury, which was uh Salisbury Police Department was 103 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:03.160 where Kelsie Underwood was employed as a police officer. Having 104 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:06.680 had a little over nineteen years of law enforcement experience, 105 00:07:06.959 --> 00:07:13.639 I didn't know him personally as at all, even though 106 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:15.759 we were both in law enforcement the Chiss. Salisbury's a 107 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:18.959 couple of hours away from where I lived and worked. 108 00:07:20.279 --> 00:07:28.079 But there was some investigators in Salisbury, which is Rowan County, 109 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:32.839 and they were investigating at the time we found that 110 00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:35.959 Victor Gunnarson's body, he had been reported missing down there, 111 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.639 so they were looking into that. But also they were 112 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:42.879 investigating the homicide of Cave Whedon's mother, Katherine Miller. And 113 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:47.040 that was a seventy seven year old lady, sweet little lady. 114 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:51.040 It's still working full time, had worked at the same 115 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:55.120 place for like forty years, active inner church in her community, 116 00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.639 had no enemies whatsoever, and was just very close with 117 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:04.120 her own daughter, Kay and Kay's son Keathan Miller's grandson, 118 00:08:04.240 --> 00:08:08.519 Jason Whedon, And so that was really a Who've done it? 119 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:12.959 For them? Someone had entered her home. The alarm system 120 00:08:12.959 --> 00:08:15.519 had been deactivated, so they believed that it was someone 121 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:18.519 that she knew. She also was shot twice in the head. 122 00:08:19.439 --> 00:08:23.199 This but inside her her kitchen where she was preparing 123 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:27.800 her New York little dinner of a little pan of 124 00:08:27.800 --> 00:08:31.079 beans on the stove, and she had apparently been reading 125 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:37.039 the daily newspapers. And so they were in the midst 126 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:40.480 of that investigation we found a Victor Donnerson's body. He 127 00:08:40.519 --> 00:08:44.919 had been reported missing just a few days after Katherine 128 00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:48.559 Miller was murdered, although he had actually been missing a 129 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:52.080 few days before she was murdered. And so the common 130 00:08:52.120 --> 00:08:58.240 denominator in those two cases was Kay Whedon because Kay 131 00:08:58.360 --> 00:09:02.720 had been had just parted, in fact, a romantic relationship 132 00:09:02.759 --> 00:09:06.919 with Victor Gunnarson. And of course then her mother was. 133 00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:13.360 Margert and she contacted the police. I found it very 134 00:09:13.360 --> 00:09:15.879 strange that she could not put everything together. But it's easier, 135 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:19.840 much easier in hindsight, isn't it. But she, after her 136 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:22.759 mother's funeral, thought it was prudent to be able to 137 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:25.080 contact the police and tell them a little bit of 138 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:29.720 information that now police were easy, much easier, they could 139 00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:35.840 make some deductions from that. Right when that happened, and 140 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:40.399 you became involved. What was the some of the information 141 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:47.279 that you learned about this police officer of nineteen years 142 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:49.679 What did you learn about Underwood? 143 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:55.039 Well, mick A fairly early on after we I think, 144 00:09:55.080 --> 00:10:00.200 I thought Victor Gunerson and but just once, and I 145 00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:03.960 want to say in case offense. She had only started 146 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.399 being Victor a week or two prior, even though they 147 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:10.720 had seen each other almost daily, but so for a 148 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:12.840 day or two there, even though she and Victor had 149 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:18.840 made plans, she she didn't know him that well and 150 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:23.080 thought maybe he just wasn't interested in pursuing relationship with her, 151 00:10:23.159 --> 00:10:25.960 or maybe things were progressing too fast for him. And 152 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:29.080 so about the time that and she had wondered where 153 00:10:29.080 --> 00:10:30.720 he was and had tried to get in touch with him, 154 00:10:30.960 --> 00:10:33.159 even had gone by his apartment a couple of times 155 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:35.840 with a friend, and he's kind of scouting things out 156 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:37.519 to see if he went brown, and there was no 157 00:10:37.600 --> 00:10:42.240 sign of him there. But then her mother was brutally murdered, 158 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:45.600 so that just put her whole life into a tail spin. 159 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:48.600 And it was after her funeral when she realized she 160 00:10:48.639 --> 00:10:51.639 still had not heard from Victor, and then it dawned 161 00:10:51.679 --> 00:10:54.679 on her that perhaps something had happened to victor that 162 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.519 he had not gone away voluntarily or he was not 163 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:02.120 just blowing her off, but maybe someone had done something 164 00:11:02.120 --> 00:11:04.840 to him as they had done to her mother. So 165 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:15.159 when I contacted the official in Salisbury and we had 166 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:18.879 kay look at the jewelry that was found on our 167 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:22.279 victim's body, which was a very distinctive watch and ring 168 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:27.080 that she very quickly identified them because he was wearing 169 00:11:27.120 --> 00:11:29.960 those the last night that she spent with him, or 170 00:11:30.120 --> 00:11:33.960 the last evening before he went to his apartment. So 171 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:38.039 after sheified those things, and then I spent that first 172 00:11:38.159 --> 00:11:40.480 day I spent with her, probably was eight or more 173 00:11:40.519 --> 00:11:44.039 hours in an interview with her, and then many times thereafter, 174 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:49.039 and that's where I first learned about fili C Underwood 175 00:11:49.519 --> 00:11:52.679 as far as his personality and his behavior and their relationship, 176 00:11:52.759 --> 00:12:00.240 which was completely unacceptable. He was very, very controlling, jealous, 177 00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:06.080 and his behavior was just the way off the norm 178 00:12:06.559 --> 00:12:09.559 as far as trying to manipulate and control her, and 179 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.799 then of course there were moments of violence. And as 180 00:12:13.840 --> 00:12:20.759 I began to look into Underwood's background, which became very extensive. 181 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:23.919 That's a very extensive part of the investigation. He traced 182 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:27.360 his background all the way back to his childhood and 183 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:31.559 infancy where he was abandoned by both of his parents. 184 00:12:31.639 --> 00:12:34.720 He was left with an abusive uncle and when the 185 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:37.399 uncle got through with them, he grew up in a 186 00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:41.440 children's home and an orphanage in North Carolina, and then 187 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:46.879 the day he turned eighteen, he left. And his relationships 188 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:50.919 all during that time were dysfunctional. But when he became 189 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:57.519 an adult and found himself in adult relationships women that 190 00:12:57.720 --> 00:13:02.519 he either dated or married, his behavior was just extremely 191 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:09.159 violent and was shocking to me that he was able 192 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:13.600 to survive a career in law enforcement. But looking back 193 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:18.559 and at that particular time, there was very little documentation 194 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:22.440 in his personnel files about his behavior. But he would 195 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.440 get in trouble with women, either stalking them, harass them, 196 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:30.600 and sometimes there were instances of violence, and before things 197 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:33.159 got too heated, he would just go to another departments. 198 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:37.200 And so that was frustrating as a law enforcement officer 199 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:41.919 to not find documentation of things that we were being 200 00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:45.440 people that happened, and people were well aware of the 201 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.360 things that he had done, and there was physical evidence 202 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:53.559 in those cases as well, and at least one woman 203 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:59.440 was hospitalized with severe injuries, others their property was ventialized 204 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:04.879 and because col evidence was found uh in she's possession 205 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:09.879 of those vandalisms like cans of risk prey paint for instance, 206 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:16.960 and so he was able to survive all of the time. 207 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:20.240 But he had been at Salisbury for Police Department for 208 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.159 eight years and he finally had gotten suspended for his 209 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:28.519 talking behavior of Kay and some some conduct that was 210 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:32.799 he just humiliated her into in a restaurant where she 211 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:36.559 was having dinner with a male friends and that got 212 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:39.759 him suspended. So there was there's a long history there 213 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:47.399 and that is kind of where we I got into 214 00:14:47.480 --> 00:14:53.320 the I got into the story just with his relationship 215 00:14:53.360 --> 00:14:55.639 with Kay Whedon's mm hmm. 216 00:14:56.440 --> 00:14:59.519 Now he has this uh, this relationship with Kay Whedon 217 00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:03.120 and you mentioned stalking, which seems it is the feature 218 00:15:03.200 --> 00:15:09.159 that characterizes his behavior, and she had stalked. He had 219 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:13.679 stalked Kay and Gunnerson and her mother at this restaurant 220 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:17.600 and then had called her afterwards, which I just thought 221 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:21.120 would ring with the alarm bells would go off, that 222 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:23.480 he knew the details he had been stalking her that 223 00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:26.960 night and asked if their mother liked the new boyfriend, 224 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.960 so she knew his behavior in that regard and then 225 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:31.879 that was one of the reasons why she split up 226 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:36.000 with him in the first place. We have to fast 227 00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:39.080 forward a little bit because you gather evidence and you 228 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:43.240 talk about divine intervention in this regard to with some 229 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:47.360 of this physical evidence that came together, and it's fascinating. 230 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.639 But the thing is is that they were never able 231 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:57.039 to convict him, let alone charge him for the murder 232 00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.960 of Catherine Miller. And you explained in the book why 233 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:04.240 that is. Tell us why despite being able to have 234 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:07.919 enough evidence to convict for the Gunnerson murder, why there 235 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.919 was not enough evidence according to the DA, to convict 236 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:12.960 for Catherine's murder. 237 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.120 Well, first of all, the district attorneys for each county, 238 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:21.600 there were two different people of the prosecutors. The potential 239 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:26.960 prosecutor for Catherine Miller was in Rolane County, and our 240 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:30.720 case had the physical evidence as far as the monochondrial 241 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:35.440 DNA analysis, which was evidence that was confirmed to be 242 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:41.240 Victor Gunnerson's head hair in the trunk of Elsie Underwood's 243 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:44.600 personal vehicle, and there were some other physical pieces of 244 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:49.360 evidence as well. The only physical evidence in Catherine Miller's 245 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:55.759 case that was able to be tied to Anderson Underwood 246 00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.440 personally was the fact that he owned a thirty eight 247 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:03.759 caliber gun and that was the same making model of 248 00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:08.160 the one that fired the fatal raump into Catherine Miller. 249 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:13.839 And then after both of the homicides, then both of 250 00:17:13.880 --> 00:17:18.640 the weapons that we know he had and likely used 251 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:22.319 in homicides disappeared and he would he refused to produce them, 252 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:30.319 so they did not have, uh the ballistic evidence that 253 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:36.200 would tie the shooting of Catherine Miller to Elsie Underwood. 254 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.480 There was a lot of circumstantial evidence, so we felt 255 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:44.119 very strongly that a jury would convict based on the 256 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:50.319 extensive circumstantial evidence. And and there there was some pretty 257 00:17:50.359 --> 00:17:56.839 significant circumstantial evidence, like multiple citizens saw vehicle matching Underwood's 258 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:00.880 description at her residence at the time of her murder, 259 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:05.839 but not they cannot positively identify it as he is, 260 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:08.119 like they didn't have a license plate in that kind 261 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:11.559 of information. But there was a lot of circumstantial information. 262 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:18.559 But at the jury and our case, jury members told 263 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:22.440 us that they would definitely have convicted him of Chatham 264 00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.039 Miller's murder, you know, had they been charged with making 265 00:18:27.079 --> 00:18:33.440 that determination. However, you know that was they weren't allowed 266 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:38.519 to do that. And so initially upon under was conviction 267 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.480 of first degree murder and first degree kidnapping of Victor Gunnarson. 268 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:45.279 The district attorney, everybody was you know, pretty young ho 269 00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.200 about it. Everybody was optimistic that, you know, we just 270 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.039 need to go ahead and uh give Chase some justice 271 00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:56.920 in terms of our mother's murder. And but then after 272 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:01.799 some lengthy discussions and that looking at some of the 273 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:05.920 four or four be evidence that's that's evidence of another 274 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.039 murder that brought into Victor Gnnerson's murder, said the evidence 275 00:19:09.079 --> 00:19:12.559 in Catherine Milik's case was brought into ours. The district 276 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:18.160 attorney in Roane County felt that, and of course, you know, 277 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:20.680 with double jeopardy and so forth, you've only got one shot. 278 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.160 We've only we only had one shot at Victor gnerson 279 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.920 They only got one shot at Caatherain Miller's murder. So 280 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:28.720 he's felt like that if he tried the case at 281 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:32.559 that point without the physical evidence that we had, that 282 00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:37.640 either the jury may find him not guilty. I mean, 283 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:39.839 all they had to do was, you know, agree that 284 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:44.119 there was a reasonable doubt and that alone might give 285 00:19:44.240 --> 00:19:49.200 him uh an a an appeal that would grat him 286 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:54.319 a new trial in our case overturn our conviction, or 287 00:19:54.839 --> 00:19:59.640 that if they convicted him of murdering Catherine Miller and 288 00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:03.359 he appealed something in that trial and something did not 289 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:08.839 go well and and then our conviction could be overturned. 290 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:15.319 So they preferred wait and hopefully find any additional evidence 291 00:20:15.359 --> 00:20:17.720 in the future, or if it looked like he was 292 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:19.880 going to win an appeal in our case, then he 293 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:22.400 would have that one holding over his head and they 294 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.559 could then charge him. So I understand the strategy, but 295 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:31.680 this strategy didn't help Kay Whedon feel like, you know, 296 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:35.640 her mother's murder, had murderer had ever been brought to justice. 297 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:38.759 So that was very painful for Kay and for Jason, 298 00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:43.640 and it was frustrating, you know, for me to know 299 00:20:43.920 --> 00:20:49.319 that he had killed this, this absolutely innocent lady and 300 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:53.519 was never going to be charged with it. But that 301 00:20:53.599 --> 00:20:56.319 I also understood. You know, we definitely don't want him 302 00:20:56.359 --> 00:20:58.680 out of prison, and if and if he wins an 303 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:00.759 appeal and gets out of prison or get some new trial, 304 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:03.200 there's no you know, no guarantee of what might happen. 305 00:21:03.880 --> 00:21:06.640 And you know, we were everybody was safer with him 306 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:15.079 in custody. So that's that's how that happened. And we 307 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.160 didn't feel like that we would have any additional evidence 308 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.240 to find unless somehow the guns turned up. Because we 309 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:24.960 had investigated the case for almost four years. The four 310 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:28.400 of us are investigative team together was Salisbury and US, 311 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:33.279 so we weren't optimistic that new evidence would be found, 312 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:36.599 but at the same time, we didn't want to risk 313 00:21:36.759 --> 00:21:37.920 lose in our case either. 314 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:41.279 Now you talk about some practical terms of a life 315 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:45.079 sentence plus forty years, and you make sure that we 316 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.960 understand it's consecutive sentencing, not concurrent, so twenty plus forty 317 00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:53.480 but in real time, what does that really turn out 318 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:56.240 to be? And then once he's behind bars, like you say, 319 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.279 Kay doesn't feel safe, but neither do you and there's 320 00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:02.920 a reason for that. So tell us why you don't 321 00:22:02.920 --> 00:22:06.319 feel so safe? What happens? But also how many years 322 00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:09.680 in practical terms before he may be eligible for parole? 323 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:11.880 What does this sentence really mean? 324 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:16.880 So at that particular time, the sentencing laws were such 325 00:22:16.960 --> 00:22:22.279 that a life sentence equated to about twenty years, but 326 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.359 that did not that did not allow for things like 327 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:34.880 earned good time and credit for different things that he 328 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:38.519 could earn and in fact, he had gone before parole 329 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:43.440 board before twenty years was up, and so that forty 330 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.960 years on top was designed to help the life sentence 331 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.839 actually be a physical life sentence, and that was a 332 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:57.359 sentence that was imposed by the judge. But jury only 333 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.880 made the decision for Ifford, and they were eleven one 334 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:02.279 in favor of the death pelts. 335 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.799 Okay, well, we were talking about that sentence, and your 336 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.039 your response was a little garbled, but okay, you talked 337 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:14.400 about you talked about the practical, the twenty years that 338 00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:16.960 it would be, and but he'd already had a parole 339 00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:20.880 hearing in that twenty years, so there was still fear 340 00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:23.559 every time that possibility happened. And there was so many 341 00:23:23.559 --> 00:23:26.559 other programs where he could get good time off, so 342 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:30.160 that there really was a palatable fear that he may 343 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:36.000 be released. But let's talk about how you became, just 344 00:23:36.039 --> 00:23:40.839 along with Ka, fearful for your life. 345 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:47.839 Certainly I had in the in the beginning when the 346 00:23:47.920 --> 00:23:52.640 investigation was going on, and shortly after his arrest, he 347 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:58.039 apparently fixated on me as far as I was the 348 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:02.240 only female on the team. I was the lead detective 349 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.440 in the gunners and case, which was what he was 350 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:08.079 being charged with, even though he knew what the subjects 351 00:24:08.759 --> 00:24:12.400 of the investigation and the Catherine Miller murder. So I 352 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.240 think that he thought his best bet, as far as 353 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:20.039 trying to gain sympathy or manipulate someone in the case, 354 00:24:20.279 --> 00:24:24.440 was to choose me. And so at first he would 355 00:24:24.480 --> 00:24:27.519 not have anything to do with anybody else in the case. 356 00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.279 If he spoke to anybody at all, it was only me, 357 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.559 and we did not expect that he would ever even 358 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.640 agree to an interview, and he really did not. But 359 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:43.000 one Saturday night, shortly after his arrest and he had 360 00:24:43.000 --> 00:24:45.279 the jailer contacted me and said he wanted to talk, 361 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.920 but he would only talk to me. So I went 362 00:24:47.960 --> 00:24:49.480 to the jail and he and I sad that in 363 00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:53.920 the room alone beside, alone with each other in the jail, 364 00:24:54.519 --> 00:25:01.000 and we talked. He made an effort at that time 365 00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:05.119 to try to extract from me what evidence there was 366 00:25:05.160 --> 00:25:08.480 against him. He was trying to interview me or interrogate 367 00:25:08.559 --> 00:25:13.079 me instead of the other way around, which I was 368 00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:15.359 not a surprise coming from somebody else, you know, that 369 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:18.720 had been a law enforcement for so many years, And 370 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:25.599 when that did not go his way, he became unfriendly 371 00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:30.440 with me, and in fact, in that particular meeting is 372 00:25:30.519 --> 00:25:35.039 where I got a taste firsthand of just how his 373 00:25:35.119 --> 00:25:41.240 demeanor changed and a tiny bit of the rage that 374 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:46.480 he held inside. And that's when his eyes went dark, 375 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:50.960 and there was a very real presence of evil there 376 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:56.359 that was manifested at that time in my presence. And 377 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:03.000 so after that we had a bond hearing. He was 378 00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:07.079 given no bond upon his arrest, but his court appointed 379 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:13.480 attorneys very quickly filed invasion for a bond reduction or 380 00:26:14.039 --> 00:26:16.920 or setting up a bond. And at that particular hearing, 381 00:26:17.319 --> 00:26:19.680 I testified that I did not think that he should 382 00:26:19.720 --> 00:26:23.920 be released because I thought he was a danger to 383 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.359 be released after he realized that he was going to 384 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:30.480 be charged with that murder, and that he was a 385 00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.400 danger to these other women in their relationships, and that 386 00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:36.680 they had given us interviews which he was now entitled 387 00:26:36.720 --> 00:26:41.240 to discovery, and so forth, and he became he hated 388 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:43.559 He all of a sudden hated me so bad. At 389 00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.240 that point, as we took him back to the jails 390 00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:51.799 from the courthouse, he called me everything that a built 391 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:57.160 cow in the jail and just enraged. He was so angry, 392 00:26:57.720 --> 00:27:00.200 and while he was serving for a while he was 393 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.839 awaiting trial. In the jail, he drew pictures of me. 394 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:09.079 He he just made horrible statements about me to other people, 395 00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:13.240 and it was very obvious that I was I had 396 00:27:13.240 --> 00:27:15.480 become the center of his attention, you know, for that 397 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:18.960 period of time that did not go away. I think 398 00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:23.920 during the trial he focused on another SBA agent, Don 399 00:27:23.920 --> 00:27:29.799 Gel and the prosecutor at trom Raser and uh and 400 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:35.920 then and me. So he was not only he did 401 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.920