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That's Chumbuck Casino dot com 48 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:00.079 and live the Chumba life. 49 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:02.760 Over to nepentarymediae by Lost in Terms Conditions eighteen plus. 50 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.719 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 51 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:18.840 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 52 00:02:18.919 --> 00:02:26.199 written about them Gaesy Bundy Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 53 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:29.919 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 54 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:34.560 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 55 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:47.800 journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening. 56 00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:53.120 The Calabrian mafia, known as the Andrangeda, is one of 57 00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:56.560 the richest and most ruthless crime syndicates in the world, 58 00:02:56.599 --> 00:03:01.319 with branches stretching from America to Australia. Controls seventy percent 59 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:04.759 of the cocaine and heroin supply in Europe, manages billion 60 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:09.639 dollar extortion rackets, brokers illegal arms deals, supplying weapons to 61 00:03:09.680 --> 00:03:13.400 criminals and terrorists, and plunders the treasures of both Italy 62 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:18.439 and the European Union. The Endranguedda's power derives from a 63 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:22.280 macho mix of violence and silence or marita, yet it 64 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:25.319 endures because of family ties. You were born into the 65 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:31.240 syndicate or you marry in. Loyalty is absolute, bloodshed is revered, 66 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:34.400 you go to prison or your grave and kill your 67 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:38.240 own father, brother, sister, or mother in cold blood before 68 00:03:38.240 --> 00:03:43.240 you betray the family. Accompanying the Dregada's reverence for tradition 69 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:47.680 and history is a violent misogyny among its men. Women 70 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:51.360 are viewed as childel bargaining chips for building and maintaining 71 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:56.199 clan alliances, and beatings and worse our routine. In two 72 00:03:56.240 --> 00:04:00.639 thousand and nine, after one abused Andrega ghet A wife 73 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:05.599 was murdered for turning state's evidence, prosecutor Alessandra Siretti considered 74 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:10.400 a tantalizing possibility that the andrangetas sexism might be its 75 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:15.199 greatest flaw in her most effective weapon. Approaching two more 76 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.439 mafia wives, Alessandrea persuaded them to testify in return for 77 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:23.759 a new future for themselves and their children, a feminist 78 00:04:23.800 --> 00:04:26.920 sag of true crime and justice. Caught in the middle 79 00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:30.399 are three women fighting for their children and their lives. 80 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:34.639 Not all will survive. The book that we're featuring this 81 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:37.160 sevening is The Good Mothers, the true story of the 82 00:04:37.160 --> 00:04:41.639 women who took on the world's most powerful mafia. With 83 00:04:41.680 --> 00:04:45.959 my special guest, journalist and author Alex Perry. Welcome to 84 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:48.560 the program, and thank you very much for Greeness interview. 85 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:54.639 Alex Perry, thanks for having me, Thank you very much. 86 00:04:54.879 --> 00:04:59.920 Incredible book and thank you for joining us to discuss it. Incredible. 87 00:05:00.920 --> 00:05:03.480 First off, how did you come to be in a 88 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:07.399 position to be able to write this book The Good Mothers? 89 00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:10.120 And want to write this book The Good Mothers? 90 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:16.120 I came across the story, as you do any story 91 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:20.519 when you're already working on another one. I was on 92 00:05:21.199 --> 00:05:24.439 working for Newsweek, doing a story down in Sicily on 93 00:05:24.720 --> 00:05:28.920 the European migration crisis, and in particular on what seemed 94 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.560 to be a kind of hidden story there, which was 95 00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:35.519 the mafia's involvement in that crisis. One answer to the 96 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:38.199 question of why hundreds of thousands of people crossing the 97 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.920 Mediterranean to Sicily and flimsy little boats is because the 98 00:05:42.000 --> 00:05:45.480 Italian Sicilian mafia wants them to. It's running a lot 99 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:49.600 of the migration centers there and is profiting from that 100 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.160 great humanitarian crisis, making twenty eight years per head per 101 00:05:55.240 --> 00:05:56.079 day of every. 102 00:05:55.879 --> 00:05:57.000 Migrant that arrives. 103 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.480 So it was on that story, I guess that story 104 00:06:00.519 --> 00:06:04.319 introduced me to the idea that the Italian mafia is 105 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:08.839 not some sort of historic legend, but very much a 106 00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:15.759 present day force. There was one boss who was phone 107 00:06:15.800 --> 00:06:20.199 tapped boasting actually who was involved in that scam, saying 108 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:22.199 that they were boasting to a friend saying he was 109 00:06:22.240 --> 00:06:24.839 making more money from migrants than he ever did from drugs, 110 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:27.399 and you know it also, so I guess that also 111 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:32.000 introduced me to the idea that this wasn't the kind 112 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:37.519 of romantic legend that we sometimes Carrie Willis of the mafia, 113 00:06:37.560 --> 00:06:38.199 that these were. 114 00:06:38.519 --> 00:06:39.399 This was venal. 115 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:42.879 It was, it was lethal and as I say, profiting 116 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:47.560 from humanitarian suffering. On that story, I had a couple 117 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:51.319 of interviews in Rome that I asked a local Italian 118 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:53.480 jonist to fix up for me, and her price was 119 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:56.240 a couple hundred euros plus you have to come and 120 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:59.160 see my play. And her play turned out to be 121 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.759 a one will and show, one actress and a guy 122 00:07:02.879 --> 00:07:06.959 on a cello in a playing in a very rundown 123 00:07:07.040 --> 00:07:09.839 area on the outskirts of Rome, a very mafia heavy area, 124 00:07:09.920 --> 00:07:13.199 actually playing to a bunch of high school students, and 125 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:15.560 I didn't understand a word. It was all in Italian. 126 00:07:15.639 --> 00:07:18.199 It was my first time working in Italy. The one 127 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:21.839 thing I understood was the name of the protagonist, Maria 128 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:26.279 Concetto Caciola, and I kind of scurried back to my 129 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.120 guest house to try and work out what all the 130 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:30.120 drama had been on. 131 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:32.240 Stage and did some research. 132 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.279 And she that's one of my three main characters, one 133 00:07:35.319 --> 00:07:38.199 of the three good mothers. She was a woman who'd 134 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:42.079 been born into the mafia, the Calabria mafia this time, 135 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:45.920 and had turned against it. And once I started looking 136 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:49.600 into her, I realized there were three women whose story 137 00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:52.839 were broadly similar. They'd all been born in they'd all 138 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:56.199 betrayed their family and testified against them and gone into 139 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:01.720 witness protection. Yeah, the deeper I looked into it, the 140 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:03.639 more the more I amazed. 141 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:04.319 Amazed. 142 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.480 I was a by the story and b that I'd 143 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:09.680 never heard of it. You know, these three women, the 144 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:14.839 arc of their story was, you know, had huge drama 145 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:17.959 and tragedy. But on top of that, I'd never heard 146 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.839 of the Calabrian mafia, the Draguitar. I'd heard of the 147 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:23.839 Sicilian mafia, you know, that's Cousinostra and the Godfather. I'd 148 00:08:23.839 --> 00:08:28.199 heard of the Neapolitan mafia, the Kamora, the Andraguitor, I'd 149 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:29.720 never heard of it, and it turned out to be 150 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:31.000 way bigger than the other two. 151 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:32.720 It was way more. 152 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.360 Powerful, as you say, you know it's It runs seventy 153 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:39.240 percent of the cocaine in Europe. It has an annual 154 00:08:39.279 --> 00:08:41.720 revenue of fifty two hundred billion dollars a year. It 155 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.159 has a presence in one hundred and twenty countries around 156 00:08:44.159 --> 00:08:47.080 the world, and that kind of fascinated me that there 157 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:51.120 was this giant organized crime syndicate that nobody knew about. 158 00:08:53.240 --> 00:08:59.120 Certainly you introduced in the book right away November twenty fourth, 159 00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:02.919 two thousand and nine. To illustrate, you talk about a 160 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:06.279 woman named Leah Garaflo, and she's with her daughter Denise, 161 00:09:06.559 --> 00:09:11.039 and she's seventeen and Leah's thirty five, and she is 162 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:16.559 the daughter of a mafioso's daughter mafioso and she is 163 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:20.159 or she was married to Carlo Costco. Maybe you can 164 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:23.440 explain this and tell us, as you do in the book, 165 00:09:23.559 --> 00:09:28.320 introduce what they're doing in November two thousand and nine 166 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:33.440 with Carlo Costco, and tell us about the past as 167 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:36.840 you do, to tell us what they're doing at that 168 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:39.080 present time with Carlo Costco. 169 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:46.720 So, yeah, Lea was born into kind of mafia aristocracy 170 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:50.320 on the east coast of Calabria. Her family was incredibly 171 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:56.120 powerful and involved in all the drag's main businesses. She 172 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:59.159 and that meant, but Leah was born into violence, actually 173 00:09:59.159 --> 00:10:00.840 when she was eight months old. 174 00:10:00.879 --> 00:10:02.000 Her father was killed. 175 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.039 When she was nine, her uncle was murdered. When she 176 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:07.519 was fifteen, her cousin was shot dead right in front 177 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:10.159 of her. In a little town or little village actually 178 00:10:10.159 --> 00:10:13.919 that she comes from, Paliaele and the surrounding area, there's 179 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:17.399 been This is a has a population of four hundred. 180 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:20.240 There's been thirty five murders in thirty years. You know, 181 00:10:20.240 --> 00:10:24.639 it's an extraordinary level of bloodshed. And Leah was kind 182 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:28.279 of unique in that she rejected the culture that she 183 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:33.320 was born into almost from the moment that she achieved consciousness. 184 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:37.120 That the great irony was was that she saw her 185 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:42.279 escape as marriage to this guy, Carlo Costco, who she'd 186 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:46.960 grown up with and who was living in Milan, and 187 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:49.960 she assumed had nothing to do with the mafia, so 188 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:53.440 she eloped with him, went to Milan, only to discover 189 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:55.919 that in fact he was working for her. 190 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:58.440 Brother and a fairly sort. 191 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:01.039 Of medium level cocaine smuggler. 192 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:03.720 And act. 193 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:06.120 In fact, she'd been sort of trapped into the mafia, 194 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:10.440 closer to the mafia than ever before, and that Carlo 195 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:13.840 actually she hadn't married him. He had married her to 196 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:18.360 guarantee his promotion inside the organization. So you can imagine 197 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:19.360 that sent her into. 198 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:19.879 A tail spin. 199 00:11:21.080 --> 00:11:23.600 She actually tried to commit suicide a couple of times, 200 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.120 and then she felt pregnant, gave birth to her daughter, Denise, 201 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.279 and that gave her seemed to give her a kind 202 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:34.080 of new sense of purpose. If she couldn't save herself, 203 00:11:34.919 --> 00:11:38.360 she felt she had to save her daughter. It was 204 00:11:38.399 --> 00:11:42.879 a few years after that that she witnessed Carlo and 205 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:47.320 his brother killer Man just outside their apartment, and she 206 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.519 became one of the first ever and drag her to members, 207 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:55.840 and only the second woman ever to go to the 208 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:59.360 police and testify, after. 209 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:00.919 Which she went on the run. 210 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.960 She and her young daughter, Denise, by then sort of 211 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:06.919 five years old, hid out in the kind of the 212 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:10.639 backstreets of northern Italy, took assumed names and did cast 213 00:12:10.759 --> 00:12:12.960 She worked with Lea, worked in cash shobs, in bars 214 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:18.879 and so on. Eventually, Carlo, I mean Carlo, who was 215 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:21.840 by now in jail on the strength of Lea's evidence 216 00:12:23.159 --> 00:12:27.679 had put his men to tracking her down, and a 217 00:12:27.720 --> 00:12:30.759 couple of times they caught up with her. Eventually her 218 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:35.000 front door was set alight, and she took the sort 219 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:39.679 of unprecedented, unthinkable step actually for seemed to be for Carla, 220 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:43.639 for going back to the authorities and rather than just 221 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:47.720 testifying about that one murder, testifying about everything she knew 222 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:50.799 about the and Draga to including all the murders that 223 00:12:50.799 --> 00:12:55.720 had happened in Pali Relea, and really exposing this organization 224 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.639 to the authorities almost for the first time. It really 225 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:01.120 was almost the first peak that the authorities has ever 226 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:04.200 had inside the Endraygona. And for doing that she went 227 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:09.399 into she was given witness protection for various reasons that 228 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.759 you can read about in the book. That didn't really 229 00:13:12.840 --> 00:13:17.399 work out. The authorities fumbled it somewhat, didn't protect her, 230 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:20.559 tried to kick her out of witness protection. By two 231 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:25.440 thousand and nine, Lea herself has rejected it and and 232 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:31.399 try is trying to forge a kind of reconciliation with Carlo, 233 00:13:32.200 --> 00:13:36.039 trying to see if they can't make peace, and her 234 00:13:36.120 --> 00:13:40.080 and Denise spend four days on a kind of mini 235 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:46.559 vacation in Milan with Carlo. They think they're on a 236 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.240 sort of family holiday, actually the kind of holiday that 237 00:13:49.240 --> 00:13:51.960 they'd never had. All the while that they're there, the 238 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:54.960 four days that there, Carlo is trying to kill Lea 239 00:13:55.240 --> 00:13:57.919 and has his men running all over the city trying. 240 00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:59.679 To abduct her. They keep missing. 241 00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:03.799 I'm not giving much away here. As the first chapter 242 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.879 in the book, on the last night. 243 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:12.120 He succeeds. 244 00:14:11.159 --> 00:14:16.759 In that her disappearance that one night. It's very again, 245 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:21.840 very dramatic what they do with Denise. How this father 246 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:25.080 tries to pull off the disappearance of the mother and 247 00:14:25.120 --> 00:14:29.000 not have Denise be suspicious. So what is Denise doing 248 00:14:29.519 --> 00:14:33.120 at the same time, where is she when her mother disappears? 249 00:14:33.159 --> 00:14:34.080 And what is she taught? 250 00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:40.000 So Carlo sort of engineered a situation where he says 251 00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:45.720 to Denise, why don't you have supper with your cousins. 252 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:51.120 He knows that Leah is not going to want to 253 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:52.879 go to that supper. 254 00:14:53.399 --> 00:14:54.519 You know, she's making. 255 00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:58.000 Peace or trying to make peace with Carlo. She doesn't 256 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:02.320 want anything to do with his family. And so in 257 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:07.440 that way, Carlo gets to kind of park Denise and 258 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:12.440 and to be with Leah alone with her daughter not there. 259 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:15.840 He does this so that he can he can take 260 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:21.080 her somewhere and kill her. Basically, Denise and Leah, you 261 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.200 can imagine, after so many years on the run together, 262 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:32.200 have an unusually close relationship. Leah is probably the only 263 00:15:32.240 --> 00:15:35.639 person that really knows Denise. You know, Denise's hidden away, 264 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:38.440 she doesn't have any other friends, and so they're in 265 00:15:38.519 --> 00:15:42.919 almost constant contact even when they're apart, and Denise is 266 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:46.559 having supper with her cousins, but she finds she can't 267 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:49.440 get hold of her mother on the phone. That makes 268 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:54.679 her very nervous. Even if Leah's phone was going to 269 00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:56.799 run out of charge, she would have told Denise and 270 00:15:56.879 --> 00:15:57.480 she would. 271 00:15:57.279 --> 00:15:58.200 Get it recharged. 272 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:04.840 And then after about sort of three hours of separated 273 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:11.080 from her mother, Carlo turns up without Leah, and Denise knows, 274 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:18.600 she knows immediately what's happened, and she also knows that 275 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:23.200 she can't she can't let on, She can't let Carlo 276 00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:29.799 know that she's aware that her mother is dead, and 277 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:32.000 she has to live this kind of as a seventeen 278 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:34.279 year old, as a miner. She goes to live with 279 00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.159 her father and she has to live this kind of 280 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:41.159 nightmare of pretense, pretending that actually her mother has run 281 00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:44.200 away to Australia, as her father is saying, pretending that 282 00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:47.960 her father didn't murder her mother, as she knows going 283 00:16:48.000 --> 00:16:50.639 on holiday with this family, that she's run away from 284 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:57.039 working in their pizza rear. Until eventually, after about a year, 285 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:02.120 she can't handle it anymore and she decides to take 286 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:04.920 up her mother's spine actually and goes to the authorities herself. 287 00:17:08.160 --> 00:17:11.599 You demonstrate where you illustrate in this book too, that 288 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:16.519 when she goes initially to the as you call him Karabinari, 289 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:21.680 hopefully it's a pronunciation for the police, that her father 290 00:17:22.079 --> 00:17:25.160 and the family are very paranoid about the even the 291 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.079 amount of time that she spent there, and they asked 292 00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:34.000 her what she had said to authorities. So it's occurs 293 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:37.880 throughout the book where the family doesn't like to be 294 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.680 wrestled control over their family member by certainly the authorities. 295 00:17:44.400 --> 00:17:48.200 Yeah, I mean the Matthia, and particularly the Calabria Matthia. 296 00:17:48.559 --> 00:17:51.640 Its whole sort of essence is about. 297 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:58.960 Denying shutting out any other type of authority in their area. 298 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:02.279 In Calabria, there is nothing but the mafia. You know, 299 00:18:02.359 --> 00:18:04.519 the state is not allowed in the police, are not 300 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:08.720 allowed in other businesses, are not allowed to exist. Even 301 00:18:08.759 --> 00:18:13.640 religion is funneled through mafia priests. You know that it's 302 00:18:13.799 --> 00:18:19.240 it's a totalitarian system and and a cult. So yes, 303 00:18:19.480 --> 00:18:25.160 when Denise is called into the police because they've heard 304 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:28.759 that her mother is missing and they want some kind 305 00:18:28.799 --> 00:18:32.839 of exclamation or account from her, she is taken away 306 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:35.759 from Carlo and his immediate family, you know, and her 307 00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:41.160 immediate family and interviewed alone by the policeman for five hours. 308 00:18:41.759 --> 00:18:45.880 And this drives Carlo crazy. He he has no idea 309 00:18:46.680 --> 00:18:51.079 what she's saying. When she comes out, he demands to 310 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:52.559 know immediately. 311 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:54.400 You know, what she's told the police. 312 00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:57.279 And he doesn't really believe her when she says, oh, 313 00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.039 I just, I just I just told them that we 314 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:00.839 came up and we went with you and then my 315 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.920 mother's gone missing. You know, how can how can that 316 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:08.640 take five hours? So he suspects from the word go 317 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.240 that she has. 318 00:19:12.480 --> 00:19:14.480 Told them about. 319 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:20.640 About about his family, about the Draguitor, about his attempts 320 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:24.440 to kill Leah over the years, and and for Carlo, 321 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:28.799 as much as he loves Denise, actually that is a 322 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.960 sin against the family. With the capital f the endraguitor, 323 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:37.119 and and the code of the draguitor is that he'll 324 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:39.680 probably have to kill his daughter. There can be no 325 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:42.880 exception to breaking a matter that you know, if if if, 326 00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:46.960 if Carlo makes an exception for anybody disgraced inside the organization, 327 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.519 and he loses all the status and position that he's 328 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:53.920 worked for for decades. So that's the moment that the 329 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:57.599 sort of seeds of doubt begin to grow in Carlo's mind. 330 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.720 And and perhaps Denise realized is that all her pretense 331 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:04.079 is never going to work. 332 00:20:05.759 --> 00:20:08.160 And probably what persuaded her to go to the authorities. 333 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:11.079 Well, at the same time persuade Carlo that at some 334 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:13.079 point he's gonna he's gonna have to get rid of 335 00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:13.640 his own daughter. 336 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:22.160 Yeah, incredible. You introduced a character, Alessandria Siretti, and she 337 00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:25.359 becomes involved in two thousand and nine. She's a prosecutor. 338 00:20:26.000 --> 00:20:30.720 Tell us about Alessandra Siretti and what was unique about 339 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:36.079 her and her idea about attacking or fighting the mafia? 340 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:38.640 What was her idea that was unique? 341 00:20:38.960 --> 00:20:41.640 Yeah, I mean, Alexander is A is a is a 342 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:46.680 fairly extraordinary person to meet. She there aren't many female 343 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:51.079 prosecutors in Italy let alone anti mafia prosecutors. 344 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:53.039 She was. She's a Sicilian. 345 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:56.839 She was born in Messina during a time that the 346 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:00.799 Sicilian mafia was at the height of its power and 347 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:04.480 in fact had launched a war on the island of 348 00:21:04.519 --> 00:21:08.279 Sicily against the Italian state through the eighties and the 349 00:21:08.359 --> 00:21:11.759 early nineties. You know, one thousand, five hundred or so, 350 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:18.440 so many people died in that conflict. And that was 351 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:21.559 Alessandra's childhood. She grew up, you know, in the middle 352 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:26.680 of a conflict, and I mean, I guess like lear 353 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:28.799 had the presence of mind to be able to see 354 00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:34.319 outside the mafia. Alessandra also never bought into this idea 355 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:38.799 that the mafia was somehow glamorous, was a legend. 356 00:21:39.319 --> 00:21:41.160 There's a lot of Sicilians. 357 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:43.960 That will tell you that it's a kind of guardian 358 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.359 or a bastion of traditional Southern Italian values against a 359 00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:53.960 predatory northern state. Alixandra didn't buy into any of that. 360 00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:56.640 In fact, when she was eight years old, when she 361 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:01.319 was asked in school, you know that essay question, what 362 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:03.400 do you want to be when you grow up? You know, 363 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.039 her classmates wrote, they want to be princesses or astronauts 364 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:07.519 or whatever. 365 00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:09.640 She wrote, I want to be an. 366 00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:13.160 Anti mafia prosecutor. I want to put gangsters behind bars. 367 00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:16.599 And she pursued. 368 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:17.839 That ambition. 369 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:23.519 Without once veering from you know, all her all her life. 370 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:26.799 She left school, she went to law school, then to 371 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:34.440 magistrates training, then graduate quite quickly to pretty heavy cases 372 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.880 in northern Italy, terrorism cases, mafia cases and so on. 373 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:44.480 Age thirty nine, said to her bosses that she'd like 374 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.079 to return to the South, having worked all that time 375 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:49.880 in the North, and that she was kind of ready 376 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.839 to take on the mafia, which in which by that 377 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:57.720 time the big mafia was was the Calabria mafia rather 378 00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:01.960 than Sicilians and her, as you were sort of hinting 379 00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:06.920 out there, I mean, Alessandra's great insight was that the 380 00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:09.880 women might be the key to unlock the mathio. It 381 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:12.000 makes some kind of intuitive sense, right, if you've got 382 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.440 a whole organization that's based on family, it's the mothers 383 00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:17.599 who are who might be at the center of that. 384 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:20.240 But Alessandra was dealing. 385 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:23.920 With a judiciary mostly full of men, who would tell 386 00:23:23.960 --> 00:23:30.200 her that the women were victims, that they had terrible lives, 387 00:23:30.240 --> 00:23:32.559 and they did you know, the women are married off 388 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:35.559 at thirteen or fourteen. They typically have several kids by 389 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:38.440 the time they're twenty, by which time their husband will 390 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.720 be in jail, which means that they are then kind 391 00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.720 of confined to the house and not allowed to go unaccompanied, 392 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:47.440 very in a very similar way to kind of conservative 393 00:23:47.519 --> 00:23:51.839 Islam beating his routine. If they're unfaithful, they're dead and 394 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:54.720 it will be their son or their brother or their 395 00:23:54.759 --> 00:24:00.279 father that kills them. So with all of that, the 396 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.119 prosecutors would say, yes, you know, that's that's all terrible, 397 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:06.680 that's tragic, but the women are no use to us 398 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:10.519 in our find against the mafia. They are just victims. 399 00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:16.400 And Alessandra, almost alone fought differently and said, no, you know, 400 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.240 these women are sentient beings. 401 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:20.000