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Speaker 1: Hey, Funky Fresh Michael, how are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: I am well, the sun is shining, the weather is peaceful,

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and I have a neighbor on the phone that wants

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to talk to you for the next twenty minutes.

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Speaker 1: Look, it's not my stereo. I have to turn down that.

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It's my neighbor's stereo, and they just think it's coming

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from my house.

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Speaker 2: There's a party going on right here. It's a celebration.

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Bridget. How are you doing today?

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Speaker 2: I'm good? How about you?

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Speaker 3: Eron?

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Speaker 1: Fantastic and very excited to share a conversation with you

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because this podcast really opened up my eyes and it

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also scared the crap out of me because I didn't

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know any of this was taking place. I mean, I'm

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one of those people, you know, where everybody thinks everybody

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lives happily ever after, and oh my god, this is

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so beautiful. We're opening up the door for other creative people.

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And then we get to be taken behind the scenes

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like you've shown and it's like, oh, that's right, this

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stuff does happen.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 3: So one thing about this podcast, and one thing we

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discovered is that you know, we als would have thought

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that I started watching this in high school, so I thought, like,

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this is a glimpse into the modeling world.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And what we find out is that this is a

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reality show, right, which is something that I think clicks

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for us these days because reality TV has been around

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for so long. But back when America's Next Top Model premier,

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it has been on for like two or three years.

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So we thought, you know, a lot of what we

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were seeing was real, and it just turns out that's

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not the case. And what they did to achieve having

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a great TV show wasn't always great for the models,

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for the contestant who were on that show.

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Speaker 1: Well, you brought up something very interesting, you said, reality show.

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And I can relate with that because one of my

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podcasts is based on life at a grocery store, and

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there are many times as the producer and as one

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of the talent on the show that I will sit

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there and say I should I prefabricate this? And I go, no,

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this has got to be real because retail people will

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call me out in a heartbeat. So I mean, I

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just sit there and I wonder, did anybody ever call

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this show out saying you wrote that into the script

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that didn't really happen.

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Speaker 3: Well, what's interesting is there were lots of models who

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today are saying, you know, this didn't really happen or

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this is not how this went down. But a lot

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of the models signed NBA's so they couldn't talk about

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those things for years later.

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Speaker 2: They couldn't talk about it.

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Speaker 3: Some of them are able to talk about it now,

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right because the show was until twenty eighteen, so a

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lot of them couldn't speak out. But behind the scenes,

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when these models would leave the show and go to

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like actual modeling agencies, right like they've been on TV,

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everybody seeing them work with Tyra Banks, they have this portfolio,

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so now like their career is supposed to start. So

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when they would go to actual agencies, the agencies would

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laugh in their faces or wouldn't know what to do

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with them because the people that the agencies knew what

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they were watching wasn't realistic. This isn't how modeling is

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in the real world, and so they didn't take the

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contestants seriously. So imagine you've gone through all of this

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for nine ten however many weeks, you know, ever many

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weeks you were actually on the show, You've been humiliated,

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You've hadn't slept, You've had to do all these ridiculous challenges.

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You're being hung off the side of a building and

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told dismise, and then you find out that you did

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all of that for nothing. If your dream ultimately is

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to become a supermodel, a top model, which is what

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the show promised.

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Speaker 1: See, and what that does? That redefines that word curse

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that you're using, curse of America's Next Top Model, because

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the curse basically is the fact that you stepped into something.

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Is it that situation of you knew what it was

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when you picked it up?

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think that's the arguing me for the models.

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Speaker 1: For me, when I got into this, I mean after

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a while, I mean it's like, Okay, I know what

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this show is about, but come on, it's national attention.

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They're gonna love me, okay, you know, because what's not

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to love about me? Oh, let's do it. And then

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all of a sudden, you're getting your butt beat.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think that's a big part of it. It Also,

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you get to look at this show was on for

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twenty four seasons, twenty four cycles as they call it,

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and I think the contestants on the first season didn't

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know quite what they were getting into. I think they

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are some of the people who can actually have like

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this cover up. I did not know what this was

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going to be. I actually thought it was a model

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in competition. And then of course there are others who

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got on the show and realized, Okay, maybe I might

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not become a top model, but I might get some fame, right,

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Like I might be able to further my career in entertainment.

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I actually talked to a contestant who was on the

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last seasons. I know a lot of people didn't necesarily

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seen it for the last seasons, but the last seasons

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they did three co ed seasons, so they had guy

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and girl girl models. And I spoke to a guy

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who was on that first season, that first season of

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co Ed, and he said he knew that it wasn't

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going to be making him gg I D Like, he

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knew he wasn't going to be a top model. He

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was an entertainer, he's a singer, he was an actor,

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and he thought being on this show, like I can model,

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I'm tall, I'm really attractive, but I think being on

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the show will help further my career. But that is

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something separate from how you think you'll be treated. Right,

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A person can go on and say, Okay, I'm very

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clear out about this. I know I'm not going to

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necessarily become you know, on the covers of Vogue. But

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they don't necessarily know how they're going to be manipulated

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behind the scenes.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: A lot of models went into this thinking I'll get

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a fair shake. If I go and do well, I'll

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get far. But a lot of times the winners were

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being manipulated by producers based on who had the best story,

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based on who would be interesting for the cameras. And

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so I think that's something that you don't really know

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until you're on the show, that like, wow, I'm not

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necessarily going to be treated the way I wanted to

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be treated or how I thought this was going to go.

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Even if you went into a knowing okay, I may

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not become a model from this.

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Speaker 1: See, this is the power of a creative mind where

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we sit there and we think we can bend the

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story to make it believable in things, and it's like

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it's sitting right there in front of each and every

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one of us. Because we have to go to those

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board meetings and everybody goes, Okay, you know, we kind

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of slipped in the ratings. What can we do to

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create some drama. We've got to have something here that's

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gonna you know, let's put this person up against this person.

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I mean, it's so easy to do because the viewer

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wants to see it. We watch daytime soap operas every.

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Speaker 3: Day, absolutely, And that's something I spoke with the creative

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producer who was on like the latter seasons, right, and

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one of the things he told me is they would

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a creative producer in this sense is the person who

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comes up with all those ridiculous runway challenges. They come

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up with all of the over the top photo shoots.

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Speaker 2: That's that's their job to design these things.

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Speaker 3: You have to think on a season of Top Model,

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you have anywhere from like twelve to fifteen of those.

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And so he said when he came along by season

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I think fifteen, they've done everything, he would come up

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with something that he's like, no, this is going to

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get them. He presented to Tyra Banks and her team

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and they'd be like, you know, we did that sorry,

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episode three, season six, and so he had to come

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up with something that had to top that, and so

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I asked him about that. I was like, you know,

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like you encouraged to like make it even more ridiculous.

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He was like absolutely. One of the he told me

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about some of the photo shoots of her. Whence he

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came up with one of them. They were at the

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Macaw Tower. That's a that's a tower in Macaw, China.

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It looks exactly like the CN Tower in Toronto. That's

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that tower with a little needle on it, of course,

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and then the models had to go to the very

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very top and go out on the ledge and do

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a photo shoot. Yes, mind you, it was raining, it

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was windy. He was like, it may have been even hailing.

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And I talked to one of the models, the model

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who won that season. I talked to one of the

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models who said her biggest fear was heights, and she

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confirmed it was hailing and they had to go out

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there and try to look fierce while they are scared

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to death. Of course they were in a harness, right,

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But like, that's not what your mind thinks about when

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you're like on the side of a seven hundred foot building.

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You're thinking, what if this harness malfunctions? What if I

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slip off of this, But you you can't let those thoughts.

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They couldn't let those thoughts sort of get in the

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way because they were supposed to take a great picture,

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or so they were told, because the whole point in

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them doing that is so we could see the models,

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you know, be really terrified, be really afraid, and see

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what that drama sort of produces. So when you're at like,

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you know, Cycle eighteen, that's when that happened. When you're

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on cycle eighteen and you're trying to top seventeen seasons

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before and which they've done all of the top stuff,

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you know, you end up hanging models off the side

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of the seven hundred foot building because, like you said,

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the ratings are slipping, you want people to still watch,

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and these are the things they're tuning in for. See.

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Speaker 1: I can relate with this bridget, and the reason why

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is because, as that radio host, I was the dude

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that sat there in my doboken martial arts, my second

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degree black belt, and let a US military man shoot

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a paintball gun at me just to see if it hurts.

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And then I was the dude that would pour salt

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into an open wound on my hand because that's what

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people talk about. You want them to turn it into

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a water cooler conversation.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, and actually I started out in radio too, and

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you get it. I get it.

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Speaker 3: My third job, I was working at a public radio

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FIS in Baltimore, and there was a pastor who was

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doing this campaign to get people to vote, and so

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he went on the top of the roof of a

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building and camped out there. He was on a camp

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there until a certain percentage of people from his community voted.

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Speaker 2: And so I was like, well, I'll just go up

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there with him. So there I am climbing up this.

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Speaker 3: Ladder on the side of a building because I thought

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it would be a good story.

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Speaker 2: So I absolutely relate to it too.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. We are just getting started with

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Bridget Armstrong, the name of the podcast Curse of America's

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Next Top Model. We are back with Bridget Armstrong. Tell

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me you did not cry a tear during this story

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because you can't help but sit there and have so

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much emotion for somebody who physically won the show but

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had nothing, absolutely nothing.

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Speaker 3: Yo wanna story was one of the most heartbreaking, and

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partially because I remember Yo wanna remember ya?

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Speaker 2: Wanna vividly.

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Speaker 3: Yowana was the one who took that iconic helmet photo

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and it's just her face and she's looking straight onto

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the camera. A lot of viewers will remember yo Wanna

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ya Wanna left the show, and this is something I

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didn't realize. In the first seasons of America's Next Top Model,

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there was no monetary prize, so the winner was winning

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a contract, but that contract wasn't necessarily tied to a

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certain amount of money. That winner was getting agency representation,

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but again it wasn't a connected to money, so Yoana

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had to use her money. She actually used the per diems,

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which was a really small amount of money they got

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every day. She just saved hers every day. She used

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her money to move to New York. And when she

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got to New York, she's one found out that she

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couldn't use her portfolio from Top Model because it wasn't

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realistic enough. So she had to go take all these

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new pictures with these fancy photographers, and she was being

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charged for that. She was being sent wardrobe because she

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had to do all these appearances because she's the winner

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of America's Next Top Model and the show was huge then.

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Speaker 2: But she was being charged for that.

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Speaker 3: Yo Wanna ended up sleeping on the couch of a

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makeup art because she could not afford to pay for

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anywhere to live in New York City. Yo Wanna was

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broke the first years of Top Model, and one thing

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she told me, she modeled for a bit, but she

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also got into hosting and that is kind of how

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she made money and built a career.

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Speaker 2: But from Top Model, yes she was in debt.

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Speaker 3: She still had to do promo for Top Model, and

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she could never say, oh, by the way, this isn't

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as great as it looks. I'm paying for all this

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stuff and I'm broke because she signed in NBA, she

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couldn't talk trash about the show.

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Speaker 2: And so when you think.

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Speaker 3: About these iconic winners, the people who really put A

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ANDTM on the map, and you think, wow, even they

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had a tough time after the show, while even they

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were broke.

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Speaker 2: You know, it really starts to put stuff into perspective.

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Speaker 1: You know, I got to tell you something, more and

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more I dug into this podcast, the more and more

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I mean, it has been well written, so we can

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say it that. You know, Tyra Banks, you know, is

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one of the most feared villains on reality TV, and

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I got to tell you and you might be able

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to relate with this. Being a radio person, I think

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she's perfect for radio station programming because that's exactly what

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we need in leadership when it comes to radio. Somebody

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who's going to step in there and really bring the game.

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And if you get hurt, you knew.

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Speaker 2: What it was.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely I went into this podcast thinking like, Okay, this

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is we're going to talk about the real side, what

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really happened behind the scenes. But also, you know, I

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was a fan of the show, so we're going to

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like also appreciate that and appreciate Tyra. The more interviews

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I did, the more research I did, I came to

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the conclusion that I think Tyra Banks is an evil genius.

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I really do, because this is a reason why the

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show had so many viewers, why it was on for

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so long. And I think a lot of people think

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Tyra was just sort of a host or just a

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pretty face. We need a model to host this model show.

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This was Tyra Banks's idea. Tyra Banks came up with

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the concept for America's Next Time Model and she yes,

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she brought it to her executive producer, Kid mock. They

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shopped it around to networks. They ended up getting picked up.

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But this was Tyra's entire idea, and I think initially

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Tyra shopped the idea around the networks and they thought

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it was gonna be a bad idea. She had an

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agent who actually told her nobody wants to see models,

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they're unsympathetic. But Tyra was like, no, I have a

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hit like this is going to be good. And she

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was right. And if you look at so much of

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the creative that went into that show, Tyra Banks had

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a say in it. And I think she really understands

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program I means she really understands television. I found out

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that if Tyra Banks didn't pursue modeling, she was going

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to school to pursue mass calm.

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Speaker 2: She wanted to be like n TV, which I thought was.

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Speaker 3: Really interesting, and she I think she really understands television

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and what viewers want to see and what makes interesting television.

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But like you're saying, some times that is not what's

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always best for the contestants. For the people that are there.

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You have to make card decisions, You have to make

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difficult decisions. Sometimes those decisions don't age well because we're

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talking about the curse of America's Next Top Model.

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Speaker 1: Twenty years later, you know, we see everything that's taking

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place on the show, and I still want to do

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the research on this. As bad as it is and was,

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we still think we are the next top model. We

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are I know I can be on that show and

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make a difference. Bridget Come on, that's me.

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Speaker 2: That was so many of the models. I think yes

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in the later seasons.

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Speaker 3: Because ultimately we all think we're the exception, right like

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we all think that know I'm going to be the

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one that can beat the odds, And I will.

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Speaker 2: Say there are While there are very.

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Speaker 3: Few top models, right, there are very few that got

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to that status. A lot of the contestants did model

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in some capacity for a few years.

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Speaker 2: They were able to make money of it out of it.

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Speaker 3: There are a handful that had really good acting careers, right,

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Like modeling wasn't the thing that popped off for them.

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But there are movies, they are on television. There are

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some models whose names we still today. There are some

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models who went into other lanes of reality TV. So

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there are people who went into it, and I don't

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know if all of their intentions were to go on

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and be a top model, or if some just wanted

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to further their entertainment careers. There are people who were

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able to take the opportunity and make the most out

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of it. But also not everyone on that show got

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it the same edit, right, Like not that everyone was.

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If you go on that show and you're seen as

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a winner who's a likable person, it may be easier

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to roll that into something else.

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Speaker 2: Maybe if you go on and you're a villain, right

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and you.

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Speaker 3: Don't mind being the villain, and you don't mind going

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to go be the villain on another reality show, that

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you can roll into something else.

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Speaker 2: But a lot of the models just.

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Speaker 3: Found that they were forgotten about that what they actually

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wanted to do was to become a model, and they thought,

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at least this was going to get me in the door,

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and for some of them it did the opposite. It

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got a lot of doors shut in their face.

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Speaker 1: You have something on this show that really triggers me,

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and I'm not the only one in the creative world

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that goes through this, but it's one of those that

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triggers me to the point where I will look at

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somebody in the eyes and say, if you say what

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you are saying, then you better get in this hole

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and dig with me. It's when someone says I'm rooting

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for you. Oh my god, that is a trigger in

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my creative zone.

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Speaker 3: We were rooting for You've seen into that. We get

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into that. This is a this is a it's a

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meme and this is why. Right, so pretty much everyone

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has seen that. This is a moment in cycle four

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where Tyra banks Like loses it. And Tyra's a lot

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of things on that show, but she is rarely angry.

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Speaker 2: You know, She's rarely angry and yelling at the contestants.

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That wasn't her role.

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Speaker 3: She's rarely mean to them, and but in this moment,

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Tyra loses are cool. There was a contestant named Tiffany Richardson,

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and Tiffany had been brought back from season three. This

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is something we get into on an episode an upcoming episode.

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Tiffany had been brought back from season three when she

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got into a bar fight, right like, she got to

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a bar fight with someone and she was sent away

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to go get anger management and they brought it back

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for cycle four. And when Tiffany comes back to the competition,

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she is not doing well, right like she.

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Speaker 2: Just feels like a fish out of water.

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Speaker 3: She's sort of falling behind in the competition, and Tiffany

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ultimately gets eliminated. And in the moment of elimination, Tiffany

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goes to say goodbye to the other contestants, He's given

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them hugs. She's kind of laughing, and that just kisses

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Tyra off.

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Speaker 2: What I think.

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Speaker 3: You know, this is my opinion, but this is from

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the research and like talking to people. I actually think

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I think Tyra was telling the truth when she says

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she was rooting for Tiffany. I think Tyra that was

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Tyra's person to win, right.

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Speaker 2: One of the things we kind of discovered is that there.

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Speaker 3: Were I think, I don't want to say favorites, but

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I think there were people who they wanted to win,

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who had a good story.

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Speaker 2: Right, and I think that was Tyra's person.

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Speaker 3: And I think seeing her sort of laugh it off

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or give up in Tyra's eyes, that just sent her

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over the top. But we were able to talk to

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some crew members who were there. We were able to

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talk to other models from that season, and I will

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say one of the things we discovered is that scene

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is not what it appears there's a lot that was

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going on behind the scenes. There's a lot that Tyris

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said that was really mean and nasty to.

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Speaker 2: Tiffany that got cut from what we actually saw.

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Speaker 3: But there there's so many layers to that, and we

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explore that in an upcoming episode, and we get into

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Tiffany and Tiffany's original appearance on season three and how

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she got sent home and how she got sent to

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Anger Management and how that all came about, which was

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through the psychiatric evaluations. We get into that on the

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episode that came out today. So, yeah, that story. I

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thought that that was just like, it's an iconic moment.

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We should start with it. Oh, everybody knows that, But

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there are layers to it.

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you, you've got to come back to this

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show when I have more than just twenty minutes with you, because, man,

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you and I can chew the same thing and be

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on the same street speaking about things that just affect

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our souls in the world of creativity.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I would love to come back.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Bridget, I'm so proud of you for

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bringing this out. I really am.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much.

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Speaker 3: Erro I hope everyone listens they can catch find this

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podcast Curse of America's Next Top Model on Apple podcasts,

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00:19:12,319 --> 00:19:14,839
wherever you listen to podcasts, and that's when people prefer Spotify.

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Wherever you get your podcasts, we're there. So thank you

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so much for having me, Thanks for talking about this.

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Speaker 1: Will you be brilliant today? Okay, you too. Thank you