WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.440 --> 00:00:13.240 The Team House with your hopes, Jack Murphy and David Bark. Hey, everyone, 2 00:00:13.320 --> 00:00:16.239 Welcome to The Team House, Episode one and thirty six. 3 00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:18.800 I'm Jack Murphy here with my co host David Park. 4 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:22.719 Tonight we have Matthew Cole on the show. He is 5 00:00:22.760 --> 00:00:26.079 an investigative journalist and the author of Code Over Country. 6 00:00:26.480 --> 00:00:28.960 This is a book about Seal Team six and the 7 00:00:29.000 --> 00:00:32.719 War on Terror and a lot of things that have happened. Essentially, 8 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:36.560 this is a book, I think, really about subculture, subculture 9 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:39.600 and special operations and where it comes off the rails, 10 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.320 and we're gonna really take a deep dive on this 11 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:48.520 subject and on Matthew's book tonight. Just a little heads up, 12 00:00:48.640 --> 00:00:51.240 we are going to talk about some graphic content here tonight, 13 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:55.799 war crimes, sexual assault, Like, there's some pretty grizzly stuff 14 00:00:55.840 --> 00:00:57.719 in here. Just a heads up, some of you are 15 00:00:57.719 --> 00:00:59.880 sensitive to that kind of stuff. Is that a trigger on? 16 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:02.280 That's a trigger warning, man, because people are going to 17 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:06.400 be big triggered in the live chat today, so you 18 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:10.120 know it's coming. So Matthew, if you could just start 19 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:12.799 off telling us a little bit about yourself and kind 20 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:16.400 of what was your entryway into journalism, and then eventually 21 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:20.920 covering a really specific type of journalism. You know, we've 22 00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:25.519 had some people on here, Sean Naylar and Jessica Donatti 23 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:29.040 and David Phillips, like there's but there's not many of us, right, 24 00:01:29.079 --> 00:01:31.560 you can count them on, you know, two hands, two 25 00:01:31.640 --> 00:01:36.680 and a half hands, people who cover special operations in Jaysock. 26 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:39.760 What was kind of your path into journalism and then 27 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:41.400 winding up in a very specific field. 28 00:01:42.280 --> 00:01:44.400 First, I'm really grateful for you guys having me on. 29 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.760 I'm really glad that you give me an opportunity to 30 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:51.879 talk about the book. I was a graduate student of 31 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:57.760 journalism at Columbia when nine to eleven happened, and it 32 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:00.879 is absolutely the case that nine eleven, and being in 33 00:02:01.000 --> 00:02:04.879 New York and downtown, I was about a block and 34 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:08.280 a half from the Twin Towers from five am to 35 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:12.120 eight am that morning, and then eventually made my way 36 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:17.240 back over after both buildings had come down. Nine to 37 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:22.719 eleven focused what I was interested in journalism, and almost 38 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:27.120 immediately I was particularly drawn to understanding what had gone 39 00:02:27.159 --> 00:02:33.800 on in Afghanistan, and so after graduate school, I really 40 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.520 just tried to figure out how as a basically as 41 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:40.080 a freelance reporter how to get myself to Afghanistan. And 42 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:44.800 more importantly, I always felt that when I was watching 43 00:02:44.879 --> 00:02:49.639 news coverage of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that 44 00:02:51.280 --> 00:02:52.560 I don't know what the sense was. There was something 45 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.199 missing to me. It was very cookie cutter, which isn't 46 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:57.319 to denigrate the reporters on the ground who were doing 47 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:01.960 in some cases a very good job under difficult circumstances. 48 00:03:01.960 --> 00:03:04.280 But at that time, you know, it was all embeds, 49 00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:06.240 and so there was a limitation on the kind of 50 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:11.080 story that you could do. And so I decided to 51 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:13.240 go to Pakistan on my own, you know, in two 52 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.919 thousand and five, and do a reporting trip up in 53 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:20.800 northwest Pakistan, which at the time, although it wasn't the FATSA, 54 00:03:20.879 --> 00:03:25.039 it was it was dicey. And when I was there, 55 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:29.120 I was very close to the Afghan border Neuristan, and 56 00:03:29.159 --> 00:03:31.280 I went as it happened, I think I landed in 57 00:03:31.280 --> 00:03:34.080 Pakistan probably a week after the lone survivor incident had 58 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:38.719 occurred in Afghanistan, and I was at that time reporting 59 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:41.159 more about the CIA, and I was really struck by 60 00:03:41.199 --> 00:03:43.800 the notion I was talking to people who lived in 61 00:03:43.800 --> 00:03:47.400 this valley that was near Afghanistan, and I asked, would 62 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:49.360 ask them, you know, did they have any signs or 63 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.800 indications that there was a war going on, you know 64 00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:54.159 about an eight hour walk away over the mountains, And 65 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.080 they said, no, you know, there's very little as different. 66 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:58.520 You know, there's some people who come through, and you know, 67 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.680 there's some white guys, there's some Taliban guys that come through, 68 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:03.199 but you know that don't bother us, and we don't 69 00:04:03.199 --> 00:04:05.879 see much difference, and they certainly don't hear or see 70 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:08.639 anything in the sky. And I thought I was really 71 00:04:08.759 --> 00:04:11.000 interested in the notion that there was this sort of 72 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:15.120 invisible line at the border that differentiated one side from 73 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:17.439 the other, and that there was this war going on. 74 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:21.199 And so I ended up embedding a little less than 75 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:25.399 a year later in Afghanistan and went up to Kunar 76 00:04:25.439 --> 00:04:27.920 and Nuristan. And at that time I was reporting mostly 77 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:31.879 on the CIA, but I started doing more military coverage 78 00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:38.040 or reporting. But you know, abroad, and you know, you 79 00:04:38.079 --> 00:04:40.240 sort of do one piece at a time. I think 80 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.879 I've probably always just followed whatever subject I thought was 81 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:49.720 interesting or question I had about something, And I think 82 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:52.879 I've always looked for trying to understand what are we 83 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:56.160 not seeing here? What is the public not seeing? And 84 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:00.240 so you know, I went I covered the CIA pretty 85 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:04.439 extensively for you know, about ten years, and as towards 86 00:05:04.560 --> 00:05:08.360 two thousand and nine, I was an investigative producer at 87 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:13.600 ABC News and I started getting interested in Jaysock and Blackwater, 88 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:17.560 and so I started pulling that thread. And about two 89 00:05:17.639 --> 00:05:23.120 years into reporting on Blackwater, Eric Prince and Jaysock, I 90 00:05:23.199 --> 00:05:25.759 was working on something about Stanley McCrystal at the time, 91 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:30.680 and I, you know, someone showed up at my door, 92 00:05:30.759 --> 00:05:35.319 so to speak, who mentioned hatchets and Seal Team six. 93 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.480 And to be honest with you, at that time, I 94 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:39.399 didn't really know anything about Seal Team six. I mean, 95 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:42.800 I knew they existed, but I had no knowledge whatsoever 96 00:05:42.839 --> 00:05:49.319 of their culture and or where they fit into the 97 00:05:49.360 --> 00:05:53.519 world of Jaysock. And you know, but basically I had 98 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:56.879 someone saying, look, if you really want to find something troubling, 99 00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:00.279 you got to look into why guys in my unit 100 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:04.240 or carrying hatchets on the battlefield. And that was the beginning. 101 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:07.279 That was the start. It was not a direct path. 102 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:09.120 It was a lot of zigging and zagging as I 103 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:12.680 was working on other things. But you know, the more 104 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.399 I worked on it, the more I found that that 105 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:19.519 there was was bigger than just a story of hatchets. 106 00:06:20.600 --> 00:06:24.360 And you know, I think I probably this book is 107 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:30.680 is ultimately a reflection and the result of how I 108 00:06:30.720 --> 00:06:33.480 go into a subject or a topic, which is I 109 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:36.120 just want to know everything that's happened, and I really 110 00:06:36.120 --> 00:06:38.879 want to know everything. I like to think of it 111 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:40.959 as in three dimensions, you know, which is the good, 112 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:44.399 the bad, and the ugly. And the more I learned, 113 00:06:44.399 --> 00:06:46.079 the more I could see, well, the good has been 114 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.240 told over and over, and it's been told very effectively 115 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:54.120 this Navy Seals in general, Seal Team six in particular. 116 00:06:55.279 --> 00:06:57.519 But the story had a bunch of key omissions to it, 117 00:06:57.800 --> 00:07:01.040 and those emissions were enough to you know, really change 118 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:05.360 our understanding and what the public should know and understand about, 119 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:07.759 you know, what the unit had become, especially after nine 120 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:08.160 to eleven. 121 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:13.560 I kind of I'm just really really curious about you 122 00:07:14.600 --> 00:07:19.680 graduating from from school and then ending up in pack 123 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:21.600 sentary point. I was sing, how like how did all 124 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:25.079 that start? Like how do you start reporting on the CIA? 125 00:07:25.959 --> 00:07:28.639 Like, you know, it's a good question, you know, I 126 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:31.920 you know what I did, I can tell you actually 127 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:34.959 the beginning and probably the first part of it, which 128 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:36.800 is I was just just reading books. I read every 129 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:38.600 book that I wanted to read, you know, after nine 130 00:07:38.600 --> 00:07:43.279 to eleven, I actually go back a little bit since 131 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:48.079 the ninety three the first bombing of the World Trade 132 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:52.560 Center in nineteen ninety three. For whatever reason I could, 133 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.439 I knew. I can tell you where I was at 134 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:59.759 each major terrorist attack from ninety three until two thousand 135 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:05.600 and one, and after the Embassy bombings in ninety eight. 136 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:09.439 Although I couldn't remember his name, when when I watched 137 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:13.920 the second plane hit the second tower on nine to eleven, 138 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:17.040 I knew who it was. I couldn't remember his name. 139 00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:19.560 I didn't Al Kaita didn't mean anything to me, but 140 00:08:19.639 --> 00:08:23.199 I could. I actually remembered his face and what with that, 141 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:24.680 you know, it was very common image at that time, 142 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:29.519 with more of a white turban, a little more looking 143 00:08:29.560 --> 00:08:32.120 a little more Saudi than he was looking, you know, 144 00:08:32.200 --> 00:08:35.519 like he was living in Afghanistan. And you know, so 145 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:37.960 I had an interest, right so after nine to eleven, 146 00:08:38.279 --> 00:08:40.879 I had even more of an interest to understand what 147 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:43.480 had happened, How did it come to this? What had occurred? 148 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:46.240 I mean you know, there was nothing, nothing special about that. 149 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:47.879 I think there were a lot of Americans that felt 150 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:51.039 that way, and so I was interested in the CIA. 151 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:53.440 I was I was when I was in graduate school. 152 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:58.240 I was already a huge fan of Seymour Hirsch at 153 00:08:58.279 --> 00:09:01.519 the New Yorker, and I was just reading everything that 154 00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:05.039 I could to help me make sense of what world, 155 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:06.720 how the world had just changed, at least from the 156 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:10.960 American perspective. And I started reading every book written by 157 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:13.480 someone from the CIA. That was what I did. And 158 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.159 one of the first that I read at the time 159 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.679 was was Bob Behar's book. And so what I did 160 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:22.159 was I was a journal you know, a student journalist. 161 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:24.120 I found a way. It took me a long time, actually, 162 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.519 but I eventually got Bob Behar on the phone and 163 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:28.679 I said, I'm a journalist and I want to figure 164 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:30.759 out how to find people like you and get people 165 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:33.679 like you to talk. And he gave me a few 166 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:35.960 pointers and it, you know, it was nothing mind blowing, 167 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:37.960 but it was enough to sort of give me a 168 00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:39.720 sense of what I did. And then at that time, 169 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:41.799 you know, the first three years or so after nine 170 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:46.120 to eleven and the invasion in Afghanistan, a lot of 171 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:47.799 the guys who were in the CAA were writing books, 172 00:09:47.960 --> 00:09:49.960 and he had Gary schron and he had Gary Bernston, 173 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:51.879 and so there were I could read the books and 174 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:54.039 then I'd find you know, I'd find them, I'd reach 175 00:09:54.039 --> 00:09:58.600 out and I would start to to you know, report basically, 176 00:09:59.080 --> 00:10:01.720 and that's all it was. It was not, you know, 177 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:06.000 it was just a question of talking to talking to 178 00:10:06.039 --> 00:10:09.039 people in that community and trying to understand the difference 179 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:12.759 between what they were saying, what I thought I was seeing, 180 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:16.279 and then what the public was seeing. And there was 181 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:19.200 always a difference, and you know, sometimes it was because 182 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:22.360 the government was actively lying. Sometimes it was because it's 183 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:25.200 just really hard to you know, work on these kind 184 00:10:25.240 --> 00:10:28.639 of stories and it's not easy with a daily deadline, 185 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:31.480 you know. So you know, that was that was how 186 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.879 I did it. It wasn't It certainly was not anything 187 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:36.000 special at all. 188 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:41.120 It's very interesting, though, I would like to jump into 189 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:47.399 the book and start with Ralph Penny. There's I mean, 190 00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:50.960 this is about a special operations subculture coming off the rails. 191 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.360 But although that was accelerated by the War on Terror, 192 00:10:54.440 --> 00:10:57.720 I think you really point to in the book about 193 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:00.759 how the precursors were kind of always there in the culture. 194 00:11:00.879 --> 00:11:05.320 This sort of pirate outlaw culture was at least a 195 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:08.559 faction within the Seal community. And I think the story 196 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:12.519 about Ensign Penny really tells how dark that really got. 197 00:11:12.879 --> 00:11:14.960 Yeah, I mean, you know, at the end of the day, 198 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.720 I went into writing this book, I had, you know, 199 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:23.080 a cursory knowledge of the history of the Seals, and 200 00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.840 I felt obviously that there's not any way that I 201 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:28.720 could write about present day Seal Team six if I 202 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:32.559 didn't get into, you know, its origins. And so I 203 00:11:32.600 --> 00:11:34.360 started at the beginning, which is in World War Two. 204 00:11:35.360 --> 00:11:38.279 And you know, let's lay out here for a second 205 00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:44.879 that historically, the combat Swimmers and the UDT the Frogmen 206 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:47.600 as they were known in World War Two, had a 207 00:11:47.679 --> 00:11:51.480 tradition and a subculture completely outside of the regular Navy 208 00:11:51.639 --> 00:11:55.960 even then, and a lot of what we know today 209 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.559 of the Seals you can see in what was going 210 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:03.080 on in nineteen forty three movies, Hollywood films in nineteen 211 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.840 fifty one. They had their own chant and song, which 212 00:12:06.919 --> 00:12:09.440 you know, made it very clear that they were, you know, 213 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:12.480 crazy motherfuckers. They were the craziest bastards in the Navy. 214 00:12:12.600 --> 00:12:17.759 The toughest and so there are there are it's like 215 00:12:17.799 --> 00:12:20.200 in their DNA, right, there's there's something to them. And 216 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.080 they're a really small unit. Right, We're not talking about 217 00:12:23.360 --> 00:12:26.960 the history of the eighty second Airborne or parts of 218 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:30.639 the Army. They're a separate from the Navy and very specialized, 219 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:36.080 which means that whatever cultural issues they have, they're were concentrated. 220 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:38.320 And one of the stories that I had heard over 221 00:12:38.360 --> 00:12:42.440 the years was an incident about a young insigdnt an 222 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:46.759 officer who had just graduated from BUDS in the late seventies, 223 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:55.759 who was essentially pushed to his suicide after being hazed 224 00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.240 shortly after getting out of graduating from BUDS. And it 225 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:01.799 was one of those stories where you know, everyone had 226 00:13:01.840 --> 00:13:04.000 everyone had heard something. Oh, I know that story. I 227 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:06.320 heard that story, and then you start to ask, No 228 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:08.960 one knew anything, right, and it was all over the place. 229 00:13:09.000 --> 00:13:11.200 But I had a couple of sources who said, no, 230 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.360 it's real, it happened, And you know, initially it took 231 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:16.440 took me a couple of months just to figure out 232 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.320 what the victim's name was, and it was INSIGT Ralph 233 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:25.480 Stanley Penny, who had been a Air Force Academy graduate. 234 00:13:25.960 --> 00:13:30.000 He had his own really fascinating story, which was that 235 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:32.200 his father was a colonel and a pilot in the 236 00:13:32.240 --> 00:13:35.039 Air Force who had fought flown a ton of missions 237 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:39.080 in Vietnam and was a decorated war hero, and his 238 00:13:39.399 --> 00:13:43.480 son wanted, who had the same name, wanted to do 239 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:46.000 as his dad did and become a pilot. But he 240 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:48.399 had terrible vision, and so by the time he got 241 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:51.679 through part of the Air Force Academy, it became clear 242 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:54.080 that he couldn't really be He was never going to fly, 243 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:58.200 and so he chose instead to join the Navy to 244 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.200 get into butts and become a seal. At that time there, 245 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:04.440 you know, it was you could go into udt or 246 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:06.679 end up as a seal. So he just wanted to 247 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:10.600 be a frogman and his father and his mother and father, 248 00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:16.000 according to his sister who survived him, were very against 249 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.960 him going. They were religious. The father's experience in Vietnam 250 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:24.399 with the seals was that they were drinkers and killers, 251 00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:29.519 and he didn't want that for his boy, and they 252 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:32.279 basically it was not allowed to be talked about. When 253 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:35.639 it became clear that Insiant Penny was going to sign 254 00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:41.919 up and go to buts, and so you know, as 255 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:45.279 I was digging, I realized there was a It wasn't 256 00:14:45.360 --> 00:14:47.600 just something bad at the end of the story. There 257 00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:51.600 was really something interesting and sad and compelling about what 258 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:55.080 had happened to him. It took a while, but ultimately, 259 00:14:55.720 --> 00:15:00.039 you know what what occurred was that he joined He 260 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:04.159 joined his team was UDT twenty one on the East 261 00:15:04.200 --> 00:15:06.279 Coast a little bit early because he had done it, 262 00:15:06.440 --> 00:15:07.720 because he had been in the Air Force, he had 263 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.840 already done his jumps, he was already certified as a 264 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:16.039 as a skydiver, so he got to go early while 265 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.360 the rest of his buds class went to Fort Benning 266 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.799 to do their their courses there and get their their certification. 267 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:27.000 And the officers there decided, since he was going to 268 00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.679 be uh checking in soon, that they would send him 269 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:34.960 on a training evolution early with a platoon. And it 270 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:36.480 was not going to be the platoon that he was 271 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.519 going to join, but he was gonna he'd get his 272 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:41.639 get a little bit of experience. So he was given 273 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:45.639 to a platoon who was led by then a Lieutenant 274 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:50.919 Joseph McGuire. We can get into him later, and they 275 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.399 go down to Saint they go down to Vieches where 276 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:58.360 there was a Seals had of training station and on 277 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:03.000 a Liberty weekend, and he goes with a East six 278 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:07.480 or an East seven who was a Vietnam veteran named 279 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:12.320 Eddie Leisure Fast Eddie Leisure, it was a considered one 280 00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:16.720 of the best, you know, best operators in the Seals 281 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:21.679 during Vietnam, was highly regarded and he had become he'd gone, 282 00:16:21.720 --> 00:16:23.399 he sort of moved around, but he didn't want to 283 00:16:23.399 --> 00:16:24.720 become a chief. So he must have been an E 284 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.320 six because he had refused. I talked to some people 285 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:28.840 who had who had served with him and knew him, 286 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:30.960 and he had actively avoided becoming a chief because he 287 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:32.879 didn't want to be in charge. He didn't want to 288 00:16:32.919 --> 00:16:37.480 do any paperwork. So he did some training, dive training 289 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:42.960 and Liberty weekend. He takes Penny to Saint Thomas. And 290 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.919 Saint Thomas during the fifties and sixties had been the 291 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:51.600 winter home of the East Coast Seals and UDT and 292 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:56.399 had a was a you know, a long tradition in 293 00:16:56.440 --> 00:17:00.159 the Seals of going to Saint Thomas, whether you were 294 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.639 on training or later in Viekas and traveling or in 295 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:06.839 Liberty and getting drunk for the weekend, as all good 296 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.119 sailors and servicemen do when they have R and R 297 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:16.440 or time off. But Saint Thomas was had a very 298 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:19.839 liberal social dynamic and community at the time, and a 299 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:23.759 very open gay community at the time, and so there 300 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:29.680 was a tradition in the Seals with frogmen when they 301 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:33.200 were out drinking, when they ran out of money, the 302 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:37.119 youngest guy in the team was they would get him 303 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:39.960 drunk and they would then sell him off to one 304 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.240 of the gay men at the bars for money so 305 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:44.480 that the rest of the team could drink. And so 306 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.519 as it was described to me, you know, it was 307 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:49.400 they didn't do it every time, and they didn't do 308 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:51.720 it to everyone, but it was frequent. It was very 309 00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:54.119 much frequent, and it was part of the hazing culture, 310 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:57.160 and it was very much don't ask, don't tell what 311 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.680 happened the next day. So fast forward in nineteen seventy nine, 312 00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.880 Penny goes with Eddie Leisure and they go out for 313 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:08.880 a night on the town and Leisure gets him drunk 314 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.319 and over the course of the night, they're at a 315 00:18:12.359 --> 00:18:15.640 bar at that time, and you'll forgive some of these 316 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:20.359 awful terms I'm just using the language that was common then, 317 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:23.880 as it was described to me by my sources down there, 318 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:29.200 they had, you know, essentially transgender men dressed as women. 319 00:18:29.279 --> 00:18:31.680 They were known as benny boys in the Seals and 320 00:18:32.039 --> 00:18:36.519 Saint Thomas at the time. And so Penny was at 321 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:39.680 the bar. He was getting progressively drunk. He was drinking 322 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:46.799 with a benny boy and wasn't clear. Eventually he became 323 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.839 so blackout drunk it was clear that he didn't know 324 00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:53.400 that this was a man. Nonetheless, he went back to 325 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:59.000 the hotel and Leisure basically came back to the room 326 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.359 and found him let him be. Came back the next 327 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:06.519 morning to get a penny and basically said, you know, 328 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:10.680 you slept with a man. And when he got they 329 00:19:10.680 --> 00:19:15.160 got back to Viekez, Leisure told the rest of the 330 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.000 platoon the quote was that we sold him to a fag, 331 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.400 which was you know, I want to point out here 332 00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:24.240 for people who uh made by the book that in 333 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.759 the penny section, I have a quote from an officer, 334 00:19:28.960 --> 00:19:33.640 retired Seal officer, who describes this older tradition in Saint Thomas. 335 00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:37.319 And that quote actually was an on the record quote 336 00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.079 of Dick Marsenko. I didn't put his name in because 337 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:42.720 he doesn't come into the book till later, and I 338 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:46.319 didn't want to confuse it. But with him passed on 339 00:19:46.599 --> 00:19:52.200 and under the circumstances, he described in great detail what 340 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:53.759 they did and how they did it. And it was 341 00:19:53.759 --> 00:19:58.559 confirmed by others who who served with Leisure and with 342 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:04.799 with Marsinko. So Penny was apparently very very distraught. And 343 00:20:05.079 --> 00:20:08.599 let's just also say that, you know, Eddie Leisure is 344 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.039 now dead. He died a few years later. We will 345 00:20:12.079 --> 00:20:16.640 probably never know what happened that evening the the it's 346 00:20:16.759 --> 00:20:20.759 virtually unknowable. What is absolutely the case is whatever did 347 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:25.559 or did not happen when instant Penny woke up the 348 00:20:25.599 --> 00:20:28.880 next day and came out, he was told, who had 349 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:33.039 had no memory because he was blacked out, that he 350 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:37.880 had slept with a man, and he was unbelievably upset. 351 00:20:38.079 --> 00:20:42.519 And what became clear is he came back. The whole 352 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:47.119 team was told, the whole platoon was told, and then Penny, 353 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:52.000 on the way flight back to Virginia Beach, was very 354 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.160 distraught and and made a statement on the plane that 355 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.279 this stuff was not going to stand, that he was 356 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:01.039 gonna he was gonna do something about it. He was 357 00:21:01.119 --> 00:21:05.000 very agitated, is the point they got back the week 358 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:10.319 before Memorial Day. A few days before Memorial Day, uh 359 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:15.880 Ensign Penny goes and buys a twenty two caliber pistol 360 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:21.480 in Virginia, and a few days later he uh shoots 361 00:21:21.519 --> 00:21:25.279 himself in the head. It was a small caliber bullet. 362 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:30.720 The death was very messy and awful, actually, and later 363 00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:35.279 that became a running joke. Also at Little Creek, one 364 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:39.960 of the seals in his unit described a you know 365 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:43.359 they would have after he had died, getting on the 366 00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:46.599 the mic for the for the for the whole Little 367 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:49.839 Creek and saying something along the lines of insig insant, 368 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:52.359 penny ins and Penny, You're wanted in the armory to 369 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:54.720 clean your weapon. Joke being that you know, he had 370 00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:57.279 failed to clean his weapon and so it had misfired 371 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:01.640 on him and uh not not killed a himself properly basically. 372 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:07.279 And you know, the Navy did an investigation very quickly. 373 00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:14.400 They determined Their results were that he was depressed and 374 00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:16.799 he had taken his life because he was depressed. There 375 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:18.799 was no mention of Saint Thomas, there was no mention 376 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:22.039 of Eddie Leisure, there was nothing about what had occurred, 377 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:28.039 and so and and when the father, Penny's father, came 378 00:22:28.119 --> 00:22:30.720 with the mother, he confronted the officers and the commander 379 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.839 at the base and said, this is this story doesn't 380 00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:36.920 make any sense. I know you killed him. My boy 381 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.720 wasn't depressed, you know, they said he was. You know, 382 00:22:42.440 --> 00:22:45.680 they didn't challenge him. They thought he was inconsolable and 383 00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:48.799 and just said we're sorry. You know your your son 384 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:53.440 was unhappy and he took his own life. So in 385 00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:57.920 some Penny's surviving mother, father, and sisters, sister Rebecca, they 386 00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:02.079 knew always that there was something wrong with the They felt, 387 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:05.880 according to his sister Rebecca, that he must have been 388 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.400 murdered because the story didn't make any sense. He was 389 00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.680 not murdered. There's no evidence that that was the case. 390 00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:17.039 But it was a obviously for the family, incredibly traumatic. 391 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.880 They never they never got over it, and it was 392 00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.640 a long buried secret, and the question had always been 393 00:23:26.640 --> 00:23:32.640 what did Lieutenant Joseph Maguire, who later became Commander of 394 00:23:32.680 --> 00:23:37.039 warcom No. When I first brought it to him, it 395 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:39.119 was I know nothing about this is the first I've 396 00:23:39.160 --> 00:23:44.920 ever heard about it. But his spokesperson did call me 397 00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:47.759 and say you know, but we do have the forty 398 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:50.759 year old NIS Report and I Report, which by the way, 399 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:53.279 has been destroyed because it's over twenty five years old. 400 00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:55.759 They just happened to have it handy and point out 401 00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:57.799 that there's no mention of Saint Thomas, and there's no 402 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:02.720 mention of you know, a Vietnam veteran seal except that, 403 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:05.960 you know, according to the spokesperson, maguire knew that he 404 00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:10.079 had gone on Liberty with another another seal opera, you know, 405 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:13.440 another veteran frogment, which is kind of an interesting thing 406 00:24:13.480 --> 00:24:17.039 to know if you didn't know anything about Saint Thomas, 407 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:22.160 right and you know, so the question is more not 408 00:24:22.279 --> 00:24:26.400 whether then Lieutenant Joe maguire knew, The question is how 409 00:24:26.440 --> 00:24:29.279 could he have not known in a seal platoon when 410 00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:33.559 the rest of the platoon in vis knew immediately afterwards, 411 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:36.559 you know. So it's it's I don't want to call 412 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:39.240 it exactly an origin story, but you sort of get 413 00:24:39.519 --> 00:24:45.359 every part of this culture of cover up and pushing 414 00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:46.720 people to the edge. 415 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:51.000 I'm just I'm just curious, I think cause like his 416 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:54.079 his father said that they were drinkers and killers. I mean, 417 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:58.359 that could kind of be applied to most special Operations 418 00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:04.960 units in Vietnam, right almost and even today, Like I mean, uh, 419 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:06.640 not that I'm a color I'm a very nice guy, 420 00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:10.319 but but that that they're they're sort of that origin 421 00:25:10.480 --> 00:25:19.400 like why and and why is why this book? And 422 00:25:19.400 --> 00:25:23.039 why about seals when there are you know, like there 423 00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:26.119 have been crimes and issues and things like that with 424 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:30.839 other units, Like what what drew you to to the 425 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:31.880 seals in particular? 426 00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:34.599 So let me just say one thing about the father's comments. 427 00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.079 I'm not co signing the father's right, right, right, but 428 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:41.960 I what what I took actually from that description of 429 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:44.720 what the father said was more that there was some 430 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.079 kind of intuition by a parent that their child was 431 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:50.960 going to get eaten alive. In other words, it wasn't 432 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:54.839 it's not about drinkers and killers. He was a religious guy, 433 00:25:54.880 --> 00:25:56.920 like he dropped bombs on people, And what's the difference 434 00:25:56.960 --> 00:25:58.559 between the guy with a knife and a guy who 435 00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:01.440 drops a you know, a five hundred pound bomb on 436 00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:06.960 a village. In that sense, it was I think more 437 00:26:07.000 --> 00:26:10.680 interesting to me. And obviously we can't know both parents 438 00:26:10.680 --> 00:26:13.480 are dead, and it's we're talking about someone in psychology, 439 00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:16.000 so it's not This is not reporting, per se, but 440 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:21.039 from as a as a journalist, but also as a 441 00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:22.880 as a father, as a you know, as a human. 442 00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:26.119 I took those words to really mean that on some 443 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:28.079 level there was a sense that he knew that this 444 00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:31.160 kid and his son was not up for the rough 445 00:26:31.160 --> 00:26:33.440 and tumble nature of what this community was. 446 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:36.160 He didn't have temperament something, yeah, something. 447 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:38.279 So that's the first part. The second part is to 448 00:26:38.279 --> 00:26:40.960 answer your question about why the Seals, why Sealed Team 449 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:46.359 six won. I think that there is a after. I mean, 450 00:26:46.400 --> 00:26:49.200 it was before the twenty year remark, but at twenty 451 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.480 years we are at a point where as a country 452 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.920 and as a public, we have to ask ourselves what 453 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:57.519 what did we just come out of? What did we 454 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:02.119 get out of this? What happened? And on the commercial side, 455 00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:05.799 on the sort of cultural public uh, you know, commercial 456 00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:09.640 cultural side, the books, the movies, the podcast. The story 457 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:14.920 is one that's very unambivalent, right. Seals and Seal Team 458 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.279 six are heroes who can do no wrong. They are 459 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:21.440 the best leaders, they are the best everything. It's a 460 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:24.559 it's an image that they promote most. I mean the 461 00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.039 you know, the Seals drive the biggest recruiting and recruitment 462 00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:31.759 for the Navy. Okay, so there's a bigger picture here 463 00:27:31.799 --> 00:27:35.240 than just a bunch of seal operators who want to 464 00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:39.279 make a little money in there in their post military career, 465 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:42.920 pushing how great they are and what they can contribute 466 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:45.759 to society, of which I have no problem with whatsoever. 467 00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:48.680 My issue is, and I think journalistically and as an 468 00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:53.759 investigative reporter, the question is is that we have this story, 469 00:27:53.960 --> 00:27:58.400 this this very clear story, but is it true? And 470 00:27:58.640 --> 00:27:59.960 you know, one of the things that I thought of 471 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:02.000 when I was thinking about whether I should do a 472 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:06.480 book was you can have flag of your fathers forty 473 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.400 years after the fact, or you can have flag of 474 00:28:08.480 --> 00:28:11.599 your fathers now. And my sources were coming to me 475 00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:14.720 from inside the sealed community to say, look, we're losing 476 00:28:14.799 --> 00:28:18.480 a battle against guys who are the worst of our community, 477 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.680 who have done some of the worst things both you know, 478 00:28:21.960 --> 00:28:26.559 morally ethically, but just you know, operationally, and they're the 479 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.720 ones who are getting ahead, mostly in public but also inside. 480 00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:34.799 And that is, you know, from their perspective, unconscionable. It's 481 00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:37.359 the opposite of what we're we should be doing right 482 00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.000 the military, like anywhere else in our society is supposed 483 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.039 to bet you know, they's supposed to be a meritocracy. 484 00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:45.039 Now we can debate whether it is in fact that 485 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:48.680 everyone I think can experience, you know, can relate to 486 00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.880 the experience in the corporate world of watching people fail upward, right, 487 00:28:51.920 --> 00:28:53.359 And I think that in a lot of ways, Code 488 00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:58.759 over Country is a case study and failed leadership, and 489 00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.599 that's really where the you know, one of the things 490 00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.240 that I've always been made myself clear to do is 491 00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:08.400 to really name the officers involved, not the enlisted or 492 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:12.200 senior enlisted, yes, but not the the younger enlisted, because 493 00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:13.680 it's not their responsibility. 494 00:29:13.960 --> 00:29:14.200 Right. 495 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.400 So the question why the Seals, why Sealed Team six? 496 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:25.000 Because they made themselves a public source of an absolute 497 00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:27.799 brand and by the way, a very powerful brand. They're 498 00:29:27.839 --> 00:29:30.440 really good at it. They're fantastic, you know. I mean, 499 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:33.680 it's the old Duffel, the Duffel blog thing about Buds, 500 00:29:33.880 --> 00:29:36.440 the Buds course, you know, the book writing course at Buds, 501 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.480 you know, the new you know, and it's a it's 502 00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:40.480 a joke obviously, but it's funny and it because it 503 00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:42.720 has some truth to it. And so you know, as 504 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:46.200 an investigative reporter, you know, if someone I mean, I 505 00:29:46.559 --> 00:29:48.079 want to jump ahead for a second, but you know, 506 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:51.160 you take a story, take two stories like Matt Bissonette 507 00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:55.079 and Rob O'Neil, right, and if they don't write books 508 00:29:55.720 --> 00:29:58.319 about what they did and what they were involved in, 509 00:29:58.839 --> 00:30:00.799 I'm not going to spend any time time as an 510 00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:05.960 investigative reporter going into what the story is or isn't, right, 511 00:30:06.000 --> 00:30:08.920 I mean, unless it's not about them, I don't care. 512 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:11.319 They put themselves out there, right. You want to. 513 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:14.000 Make you know, a couple of million dollars telling this 514 00:30:14.400 --> 00:30:17.839 heroic story of yourself, and you don't want to write 515 00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:19.960 things down that are accurate, or you tell you tell 516 00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:22.559 the story in a way that's not that's inaccurate. I 517 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:24.880 think you're you. And so that's a small case, but 518 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:27.200 that's the answer is writ large. 519 00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:27.400 Right. 520 00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:30.839 If you're an organization or a community or a culture 521 00:30:31.079 --> 00:30:36.279 that wants to make money and uh earn fame and 522 00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:40.559 uh sort of put yourself up at this at at 523 00:30:40.559 --> 00:30:44.799 this place culturally, then it better be true. 524 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:45.480 Right. 525 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:47.839 And and you know, there's plenty of truth in a 526 00:30:47.880 --> 00:30:50.759 lot of these stories that have been made public, but 527 00:30:51.000 --> 00:30:53.400 it's always the parts that are missing, and the public 528 00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:55.200 is you know the public doesn't. I mean, you guys 529 00:30:55.519 --> 00:30:58.119 can appreciate this because you've experienced this. One of the 530 00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:01.000 things that I was sort of had an Aha moment 531 00:31:01.000 --> 00:31:03.039 at some point writing this book where I realized that 532 00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:07.160 what the public doesn't get when they get virtually any 533 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:11.480 news story about a military event, they have no context, right, 534 00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:17.039 I mean none, because very few Americans have been to war, right, 535 00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.240 very few Americans have put on a uniform. Right, That's 536 00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:24.759 an issue. And so going back twenty years after, you know. 537 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:28.119 Seal Team six is probably the one unit, one military unit, 538 00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:30.240 that you can name and people understand what that is. 539 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:31.319 It's a global brand. 540 00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:33.799 As opposed to any other unit in the military that 541 00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:36.079 we might mention, you would have to stop, take a 542 00:31:36.119 --> 00:31:38.480 moment and kind of explain to the public what that 543 00:31:38.599 --> 00:31:41.039 unit is. And the Seals are probably the one exception 544 00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:43.519 to that. Hey, guys, I want to tell you about 545 00:31:43.519 --> 00:31:46.079 the sponsor for tonight's show, which is true work. They 546 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:48.880 make performance work where that's built like it matters because 547 00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:52.000 it does. 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Thanks guys. 583 00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.880 Yeah, and I think that is a the you know, 584 00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:47.559 I think the subtitle of this book could have been 585 00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:49.680 The Secrets of Seal Team Six. Could have also been 586 00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.079 The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Yeah, they've done 587 00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.680 some incredibly heroic work. They've done some great work. I 588 00:33:54.720 --> 00:33:57.119 know a lot of good Seals from Seal Team six, 589 00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.960 and I would venture to say that most good. But 590 00:34:01.079 --> 00:34:06.200 there is a steady core in the Seals and at 591 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:08.280 Seal Team six. And the thing is is that you 592 00:34:08.320 --> 00:34:10.440 know your listeners know the difference between the Seals and 593 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:14.199 Seal Team six. But what people don't un fully appreciate 594 00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:17.239 is that when you have a unit this elite, whatever 595 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:21.440 they do eventually trickles down into the white side of 596 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:25.400 the seals. And so that's how you get Eddie Gallagher, right, 597 00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:28.760 That's where you get where it's like, you know, to 598 00:34:28.800 --> 00:34:31.440 be expected kind of that eventually you're going to have 599 00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:35.519 you know, someone said to me when I was interviewing 600 00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:39.280 former seal and member of Seal Team six about Eddie Leisure, 601 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:41.440 and they said, you know, after Vietnam, we had twenty 602 00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:45.920 or thirty Eddie leisures in the teams and later, you know, 603 00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:48.320 not later, actually prior to that. When I interviewed someone 604 00:34:48.440 --> 00:34:52.599 during the Gallagher during the court martial, it was you know, 605 00:34:52.639 --> 00:34:55.199 we have twenty year thirty Eddie Gallaghers and the teams. 606 00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:57.440 There's nothing special about them in that sense. What was 607 00:34:57.440 --> 00:34:59.119 special was that there were a bunch of kids who 608 00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:02.800 came and decided that you know, they would put their 609 00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:07.039 careers in jeopardy to try to stop them, right, So 610 00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:09.519 you know that's the that's the motivation. 611 00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:12.039 Behind So let me ask you them, what is the 612 00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:14.159 difference between. 613 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:20.639 Something like this happening at Seal Team six by something 614 00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:25.400 that happened SF or rangers or like, are we just 615 00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:28.880 looking at individual like these these bad seeds, you know, 616 00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:32.760 these people that you know get through their screening process 617 00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:36.159 and do things that you know, whether you're in combat 618 00:35:36.280 --> 00:35:41.519 or or back home. You know, you know, are war 619 00:35:41.559 --> 00:35:44.360 crimes illegal things like that? Is there a difference between 620 00:35:45.320 --> 00:35:47.360 like when it happens in the sealed community and when 621 00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:48.559 it happens someplace else? 622 00:35:49.039 --> 00:35:53.079 No, I mean, look, crimes of war and violations of 623 00:35:53.119 --> 00:35:55.679 the laws of war are are the same regardless of 624 00:35:55.719 --> 00:35:58.239 who commits them. I think the question is what you 625 00:35:58.320 --> 00:36:02.599 do about them and what is the frequency. But it's 626 00:36:02.639 --> 00:36:06.320 beyond that, there is a there are legal questions, There 627 00:36:06.320 --> 00:36:10.599 are ethical questions, and there are moral questions. And Seal 628 00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:18.239 Team six and the Seals are very unique in their 629 00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:24.440 ethical particularly ethical but in some cases moral and legal issues. 630 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:28.320 They have problems, and the real issue is they just 631 00:36:28.360 --> 00:36:32.119 won't deal with it. I mean, the reason why this 632 00:36:32.159 --> 00:36:37.159 book exists is because they couldn't clean up their own shop, period, right. 633 00:36:37.239 --> 00:36:39.159 And I think you know, we were talking a little 634 00:36:39.159 --> 00:36:43.119 bit about this before we went on. Delta had some 635 00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:45.199 of the same problems. Early in the war. They had 636 00:36:45.280 --> 00:36:48.360 war crimes issues, they were very aggressive. They lost a 637 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.320 lot of guys. They were not asking questions. There was 638 00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:54.280 not a whole lot of supervision. Rock was a mess, 639 00:36:54.880 --> 00:36:58.920 was you know, as you know, you both know very 640 00:36:58.920 --> 00:37:05.239 well battlefield that was just chock full of targets. The 641 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:14.960 guys who were committing wanton acts of desecration, mutilations, war 642 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:19.719 crimes in Delta were all quietly let go afterwards. They 643 00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:22.400 weren't brought up on charges. There was no court martial, 644 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:26.000 there's no UCMJ. They were when the deployment was over. 645 00:37:26.599 --> 00:37:28.719 They were given time to sort of process through and 646 00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:30.360 then they were just asked to leave and there was 647 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.119 no there was no answer or explanation. That is something 648 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:36.559 that you know. They they took care of their virus 649 00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:39.480 is the you know they had an illness. They policed 650 00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:43.400 their own because because the integrity of the unit was 651 00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:46.840 always greater than any individual member of the unit. And 652 00:37:46.880 --> 00:37:49.039 that is a cultural issue. And I'm not an expert 653 00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:52.199 on Delta. I ask everyone that I talked to, especially 654 00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:55.360 in Delta and in the Seals, what's the difference between 655 00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:57.000 you guys. And I don't just mean how you hold 656 00:37:57.039 --> 00:37:59.400 your guns or how you you know, attack a target. 657 00:37:59.480 --> 00:38:03.639 What are the could issues And that is the biggest 658 00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:06.800 one that there are. There's a standard, it has to 659 00:38:06.840 --> 00:38:11.840 be met every day, and at Team six, historically it 660 00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:15.960 is the opposite. Once you're in, the standards are relaxed. 661 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:20.400 And there's also this team issue. The seals make it 662 00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:22.360 through budgs. You become a Seal by working as a 663 00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:25.920 Team six in a boat, right, and that concept is 664 00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:30.000 what gets you through, and that creates an incredibly intense bond, 665 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:35.199 one that I think is often the envy of other units. They're, 666 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.400 you know, really to close knit. The problem is is 667 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:39.199 that when things go bad, you never want to see 668 00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:42.079 your buddy kicked out or screwed over, right, So that 669 00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:46.159 the instinct is fix, Yeah, let's fix this in house, 670 00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:48.400 keep it in house. And that's what Marsinco did when 671 00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:50.480 he set up Seal Team six, and he said so explicitly. 672 00:38:50.599 --> 00:38:53.599 There's a lot in your book about Marsenco and about 673 00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:56.360 how it kind of was founded on this pirate culture. 674 00:38:56.440 --> 00:38:59.800 But I do want to skip ahead and talk about 675 00:38:59.800 --> 00:39:02.400 how these problems got accelerated during the War on Terror. 676 00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:04.039 And I was wondering if you could tell us about 677 00:39:04.239 --> 00:39:07.039 what really happened at Roberts Ridge and how that really 678 00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:12.960 started accelerating the problems that the unit was have and 679 00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:17.079 led to other things. But if you could tell the story, sure. 680 00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:20.800 So. The battle at Roberts Ridge was at a mountaintop 681 00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:24.400 known as Talker Gar in eastern Afghanistan in March early 682 00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:27.920 March of two thousand and two. The Seals were part 683 00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:33.039 of the soft Unit, a recon element for a larger, 684 00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:37.880 big army push into what the military believed at the 685 00:39:37.880 --> 00:39:40.239 time was the last valley of stronghold of Taliban and 686 00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:45.159 al Qaeda fighters and there was a deadline to meet 687 00:39:45.760 --> 00:39:50.960 and the Seals, a small seal recon element from Seal 688 00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:55.920 Team six from Red Team, went in by helicopter. One 689 00:39:55.960 --> 00:39:59.400 of the seal one of the operators, Neil Roberts, fell 690 00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.519 out the back of the helicopter after the helicopter was 691 00:40:02.599 --> 00:40:05.400 hit by enemy fire at the top of the mountain. 692 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:13.519 They then the helicopter recovered Eventually the team. The surviving 693 00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:18.480 team went back in looking for him. That led to 694 00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:23.800 the in another ambush and extended firefight with some Alkaido 695 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:29.559 fighters was a very entrenched position. Neil Roberts was killed 696 00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:32.280 pretty quickly. The Seals didn't know that but he was 697 00:40:32.360 --> 00:40:37.079 killed pretty quickly, and then the combat controlman who was 698 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:41.840 the CCT attached to the Red Team, John Chapman, was struck. 699 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:45.920 The two other seals in the in the group were hit. 700 00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:52.760 They blew smoke and retreated to save the remaining guys. 701 00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:57.519 Chapman was left believed to be dead. Turns out he 702 00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:01.480 was not dead. He was He later covered from his 703 00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:03.639 wounds and fought alone at the top of the mountain 704 00:41:03.679 --> 00:41:09.000 for about an hour before a QRF comes in with rangers, 705 00:41:09.400 --> 00:41:13.159 primarily another somewhere. I think there's a total of seven 706 00:41:13.400 --> 00:41:15.920 who died that day. There was another five. They were 707 00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:18.719 not all rangers, four rangers I think in another air force, 708 00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:23.039 maybe a PJ who was killed on the on the mountain. Ultimately, 709 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:27.239 they they got the the the Americans won, took control 710 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:32.760 of the mountain, but they lost seven servicemen. As I said, 711 00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:36.440 the first member of Seal Team six. In the aftermath 712 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:44.880 of Roberts Ridge, the seals discovered that Neil Roberts had 713 00:41:44.960 --> 00:41:47.760 been mutilated and that the enemy they in fact had 714 00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:51.639 been seen on the ISR coverage as it was happening 715 00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:55.920 in certain places. One of the guys that the enemy 716 00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.440 had tried to cut off his head and almost did, 717 00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:01.440 but it failed. And when his body is brought back 718 00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:04.119 to Bogram and this I didn't know until I did 719 00:42:04.119 --> 00:42:08.280 the book, and I actually I ask you guys whether 720 00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:10.440 this was normal. I was told that this was very 721 00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:15.719 unusual and not normal. They basically had most of his teammates, 722 00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:17.480 almost all of them, come in and view the body 723 00:42:17.760 --> 00:42:20.039 in that condition, and that there was a law. And 724 00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:21.760 I actually talked to some people who were there when 725 00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:24.119 it was happening, and there was a long line waiting. 726 00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:27.679 Needless to say, it was a very traumatic event. They 727 00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:32.760 had lost their first teammate, Chapman died. There's a you know, 728 00:42:32.760 --> 00:42:36.920 a secondary scandal and issue with Chapman that we can 729 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:41.079 get into later. But the suffice to say what happens 730 00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:45.920 here is sort of two things. Seal Team six, for 731 00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.480 the first time in their history, is in real war 732 00:42:48.599 --> 00:42:52.639 and combat. Right. The reality is is that until nine 733 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:56.760 to eleven in Jaysack and when Special Operations Seal Team 734 00:42:56.800 --> 00:43:00.440 six was JV to Delta, it just was they never 735 00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:03.159 got the they never got picked for the missions. They 736 00:43:03.320 --> 00:43:08.559 finally broke through in Bosnia with with one of the snatches, 737 00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:10.719 and so they started get to pick up steam, but 738 00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:15.840 they were never the first choice. Now they were at 739 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:18.679 war and Seal Team six is on the front lines 740 00:43:18.800 --> 00:43:22.559 and they get they face get faced with a horrific 741 00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:26.559 situation in which, you know, their team leader, Britz Slavinski, 742 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.000 is essentially ordered to go up to the top of 743 00:43:31.000 --> 00:43:35.639 of a of a mountain and violating all the basic 744 00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:41.280 principles of reconnaissance against his own recommendation to his officers. 745 00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:43.239 And I just want to stop here and say that 746 00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:46.599 one of the things that is most interesting I think 747 00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:49.280 about understanding the culture, and you know, I think that's 748 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.559 obviously true. It dealt as well. But Seal Team six, 749 00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:58.119 Dick Marsenko built the unit so that the officers command, 750 00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:03.679 but the senior enlisted lead. And so when Slabinsky says, 751 00:44:03.719 --> 00:44:06.480 I need twenty four hours more and he is told 752 00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:09.840 basically shut up and gets to the top, he's following 753 00:44:09.840 --> 00:44:12.199 his orders. And so it's not you know, it is 754 00:44:12.320 --> 00:44:15.519 not his responsibility that they were sent up there, but 755 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.960 it's also the capitulation from the E seven or the 756 00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:22.480 E eight, who definitely knew better than the two men 757 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.159 who were ordering him up there, right, he knew better. 758 00:44:25.519 --> 00:44:27.440 And it's something that he said, you know, in the 759 00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:30.119 interviews that I published, he talks about he knew he 760 00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:34.639 was violating this this this cardinal you know, this basic 761 00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:40.920 rule of recon and it was eating at him immediately. Right, 762 00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:47.480 So they sort of have this really awful event. They 763 00:44:47.559 --> 00:44:50.639 have this horrific thing happened to one of their teammates, 764 00:44:50.679 --> 00:44:53.679 and in the immediate aftermath, and I mean immediate, they 765 00:44:53.719 --> 00:44:55.840 went on a some of them, not all of them. 766 00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:58.199 Some of the unit went on for what later became 767 00:44:58.239 --> 00:45:01.360 known as revenge jops. They were at for blood and so, 768 00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:07.159 you know, it's trite, but they went up one way 769 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:09.679 and they came down another. Right, The guys who were 770 00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:12.039 on that mountain did not come back down the same 771 00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:15.320 and it trickled through most of the team because of 772 00:45:15.360 --> 00:45:18.320 the nature of the way the unit was. And there 773 00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:20.880 was this sort of other element, you know, which is 774 00:45:20.920 --> 00:45:23.519 that we can get into the squadrons. But at the 775 00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:25.360 time it was Red Team and they were known as 776 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:28.239 the Red Men. They had a mascot, Native American mascot, 777 00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:34.320 and so there was this this identity issue that grew 778 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:39.000 and in the immediate after math, there were you know, 779 00:45:39.199 --> 00:45:42.440 there were war crimes very quickly afterwards within twenty four 780 00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:45.800 thirty six hours by the seals, some of the seals, 781 00:45:45.800 --> 00:45:50.599 including one of the officers. And so it's your starting 782 00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.119 point of understanding post nine to eleven how things change. 783 00:45:53.159 --> 00:45:55.480 And you know, some of it is obviously they had 784 00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:59.199 a culture of cover ups in the Seals and in 785 00:45:59.239 --> 00:46:01.480 Seal Team six unit. But the other thing is, let's 786 00:46:01.480 --> 00:46:03.599 be honest, right, it was war for the first time. 787 00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:04.679 You guys are seeing war. 788 00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:05.119 For the first time. 789 00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:07.960 Well, and not only was it war, but they saw 790 00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:12.079 a friend of theirs, a teammate, you know, somebody who 791 00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.960 they had spent time with, you know, who they knew personally, 792 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:21.199 having been savaged, you know, not just killed, but savage. 793 00:46:21.400 --> 00:46:25.519 And I can I can definitely understand sort of that 794 00:46:25.559 --> 00:46:28.800 mentality of all right, well, let's get some right. 795 00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:30.519 I don't think you know, I think that it is 796 00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:33.920 fair to say that that most people can can relate 797 00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:37.320 or appreciate to that feeling. Right, So the notion that 798 00:46:37.400 --> 00:46:40.480 there is an eye for an eye and justice needs 799 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:42.679 to be served, you know, that there needs to be revenge. 800 00:46:42.880 --> 00:46:47.079 I think what your officers will tell you is is 801 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:49.239 that that's all well and good, but we have a law. 802 00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:53.079 We have rules and regulations, and we need to keep 803 00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:56.440 it within the bounds of what's acceptable. And I think 804 00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:58.800 you know what some almos said to me one time was, 805 00:46:58.880 --> 00:47:03.119 you know, it was that there was ever really one 806 00:47:03.199 --> 00:47:06.800 moment where we had just gone, where the whole unit 807 00:47:06.840 --> 00:47:10.320 had gone totally off the rails. What they said was, 808 00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:16.880 on each deployment there were groups of guys in each 809 00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:20.840 squadron that would go too far. But what happened is 810 00:47:20.880 --> 00:47:25.679 they were never pulled back, never in fifteen in twenty years, 811 00:47:25.719 --> 00:47:28.119 and so the officers never did anything about it, and 812 00:47:28.199 --> 00:47:32.400 so each deployment the line moved so that by ten 813 00:47:32.480 --> 00:47:34.360 years later, you know, and I get into it in 814 00:47:34.360 --> 00:47:37.360 the book, you get Britz Slabinski seven years later, actually 815 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:39.679 from that end, since five years later, asking for a 816 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:42.280 head on a platter. And there's a debate about whether 817 00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:45.480 it was metaphoric or whether it was literal, but some 818 00:47:45.559 --> 00:47:48.599 of his men took it as a direct order and 819 00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:52.360 tried to obey and comply with it. And that was 820 00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:55.760 just one of what was a very bad and very 821 00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:59.119 rough deployment in which there was a view that the 822 00:47:59.159 --> 00:48:02.159 only way to defeat the Taliban was to be more 823 00:48:02.199 --> 00:48:05.639 savage than the savages right right to humanize the enemy 824 00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:09.360 and treat them as as they treat the civilian population. 825 00:48:09.960 --> 00:48:12.519 So it's not just it's not just warfare, but there's 826 00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:13.719 also psychological war. 827 00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:16.639 And so what I would say is is that what 828 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:20.360 you there is a through line from what happened in 829 00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:24.679 the in the immediate aftermath of Robert's Ridge, to what 830 00:48:24.840 --> 00:48:28.400 happens later. Right, it's a it's a it's a culture, 831 00:48:29.280 --> 00:48:34.119 and it's a there's a lack of accountability, you know, 832 00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:36.079 and that's that's part of one of the one of 833 00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:36.880 the central stories. 834 00:48:36.880 --> 00:48:40.360 And unfortunately, so where were the officers. Why weren't the 835 00:48:40.400 --> 00:48:44.320 officers pulling them back or or like saying, hey, like 836 00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:46.679 we like we need to change these guys out, Like 837 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:48.559 we need we need somebody to come in and fill 838 00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:50.920 in for them so they can decompress, because like they're 839 00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:52.199 round rely tight right now. 840 00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:56.599 It's an excellent question. The shortest answer is is that 841 00:48:56.679 --> 00:48:58.880 in many of the cases, not all, but many of 842 00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:02.159 the cases, the office who were leading these men were 843 00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:04.599 you know, at Seal Team six. The respect for officers 844 00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:07.679 from the enlisted comes from guys who had the kind 845 00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:10.039 of experience they did, who had gone through Green team 846 00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:13.719 who were you know, were trained and qualified as assaulters 847 00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:17.000 after nine to eleven. In several cases, because they had 848 00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:20.159 to surge up numbers, officers were allowed in who had 849 00:49:20.159 --> 00:49:22.320 not gone through green teams. So immediately you have a 850 00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:27.320 problem because those officers have no respect from the enlisted, 851 00:49:27.400 --> 00:49:30.199 and so the officers are leading from behind and from 852 00:49:30.280 --> 00:49:33.079 the position of they need the respect of the men. 853 00:49:33.119 --> 00:49:34.920 And the way to be respected is to be liked. 854 00:49:35.320 --> 00:49:39.000 You don't get liked by by being enforcing discipline and 855 00:49:39.079 --> 00:49:40.920 good order. You know, good order and discipline is the 856 00:49:41.000 --> 00:49:44.760 Navy requires it. And so what you have are our 857 00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:48.440 officers who look the other way. You have officers who 858 00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:52.599 encouraged it, sometimes not using you know. One of the 859 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:54.840 things that's hard to write about our all the euphemisms, 860 00:49:54.880 --> 00:49:58.639 and you know there's no directed it's you know, they 861 00:49:58.679 --> 00:50:00.440 sent messages just with folks, you. 862 00:50:00.440 --> 00:50:02.519 Know, the body language. Could you dive a little bit 863 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:05.000 deeper into the culture of each of the squadrons, because 864 00:50:05.039 --> 00:50:07.320 I think this part is really interesting in how each 865 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:11.639 squadron in dev group has its own identity and how 866 00:50:11.679 --> 00:50:13.599 that kind of expressed itself over the years. 867 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:18.400 Yeah. Sure, So you know there are historically the squadrons. 868 00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:23.079 Original ones were gold and blue, which reflected the colors 869 00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:26.840 of the Navy at the time. Red is quickly added 870 00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:31.719 into it. Later there is gray, which are boats, there's black, 871 00:50:31.760 --> 00:50:37.360 and eventually silver. That's the rough. Each then develops a name. 872 00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:41.840 They have their own flag and identity. Gold where the 873 00:50:41.840 --> 00:50:45.280 Crusaders or the Knights depending on the year that shifted. 874 00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:49.360 The Red squadron where the red men and had a 875 00:50:49.440 --> 00:50:56.519 Native American mascot with two tomahawks. Across blue are the 876 00:50:56.559 --> 00:51:01.199 Pirates with the Jolly Roger flag. Black, which is an intelligence. 877 00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:03.760 I actually don't know their name, but they have a 878 00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:10.559 horse with two lightning bolts. And then later silver they're 879 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:13.400 the Raiders. They have sort of a shield but one 880 00:51:13.440 --> 00:51:16.199 of everything. They've got a knife, they've got a hatchet, 881 00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:20.280 and a skull face to sort of reflect all of 882 00:51:20.280 --> 00:51:23.480 them because they were the newest of the units. The 883 00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:29.320 what you're asking about is really about the three Blue, Gold, and. 884 00:51:29.320 --> 00:51:31.039 The Salt squad The original. 885 00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:36.559 Salt squadrons Blue, Gold, and Red, and prior to not 886 00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:39.880 there was always a culture involved. They were defined in 887 00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:47.639 different generations, but there the Native American subculture in the 888 00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:50.239 you know, one of the traditions that in Red squadron 889 00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:53.800 was once you were drafted into the squadron after making 890 00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:56.280 it through selection and Green team, you had to yard 891 00:51:56.320 --> 00:52:00.119 in and yarding in, you had to wear a tradition 892 00:52:00.440 --> 00:52:04.880 and I don't know which tribe Native American head piece, 893 00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:07.920 and then you had to drink a yard of beer 894 00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:09.960 that had a I don't know if it was remember 895 00:52:09.960 --> 00:52:12.280 which hard alcohol it is at the bottom. And if 896 00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:15.159 you could do that, you you were in. And they 897 00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:17.199 had a culture which was known as sort of harder, 898 00:52:17.280 --> 00:52:22.480 not smarter. They were. Their culture was you met violence 899 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:26.840 with more violence, and you solve problems by being stronger 900 00:52:26.840 --> 00:52:31.119 and bigger. Right, That was the psyche that had developed 901 00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:39.000 within that unit. Blue had you know, different parts in 902 00:52:39.079 --> 00:52:43.239 different places. Their subculture. You know, the way I really 903 00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:48.599 understand most of the subculture was in the kind of unfortunately, 904 00:52:48.599 --> 00:52:51.039 the kind of atrocities and desecration that each had their 905 00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:54.920 own kind of desecration basically, and it could move around. 906 00:52:56.039 --> 00:53:01.559 But the you know, Blue used knives and were known 907 00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:07.840 for skinning. Red used the hatchets gold. There's some things 908 00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:10.760 that I didn't put in the book. Sometimes it was 909 00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:15.079 because I didn't want to. There's enough enough. There's only 910 00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:19.119 a certain amount of you know, some of this stuff 911 00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:22.360 is gruesome, and it was Gold had a different style, 912 00:53:23.119 --> 00:53:24.400 is the best way I could say it. And they 913 00:53:24.440 --> 00:53:26.159 had some things that they did that were pretty disturbing. 914 00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:30.719 What they had all in common was they were sort 915 00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:34.079 of you know, one of the senior enlisted said to me, look, 916 00:53:34.079 --> 00:53:37.599 there are sort of three responses in our guys in 917 00:53:37.679 --> 00:53:46.280 how they experience violence. Some their first instinct upon experiencing 918 00:53:46.400 --> 00:53:50.440 up close intense violence that is the business recoil and 919 00:53:50.480 --> 00:53:53.119 they self select out. And actually after Robert's Ridge, there 920 00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:54.960 were a lot of guys in Red Team that left 921 00:53:55.239 --> 00:54:01.000 Seal Team six. Several left the Seals altogether. Wasn't spoken about. 922 00:54:01.000 --> 00:54:03.199 It was just understood that it was, hey, it's not 923 00:54:03.239 --> 00:54:06.800 for me. There was another kind which fits along, you know, 924 00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:10.280 I think culturally more of the Red Squadron Red Team, 925 00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:15.559 which was to meet violence with more violence. There was 926 00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:17.880 a third which I think is the most actually the 927 00:54:17.880 --> 00:54:21.079 most interesting, the hardest to write about because it as 928 00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:25.079 an outsider, which is that there were some who saw 929 00:54:25.559 --> 00:54:28.679 art as some violence as a sort of art, which 930 00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:32.000 is to say, you use it the least amount possible 931 00:54:32.360 --> 00:54:35.440 and only when necessary. And you're looking for solutions to 932 00:54:35.519 --> 00:54:37.280 a problem. I mean, I think by the way, it's 933 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:41.079 probably common in other units. You're given a task and 934 00:54:41.400 --> 00:54:45.039 you're looking for a way to not kill to accomplish 935 00:54:45.079 --> 00:54:50.440 your mission. And a lot of the operators and the 936 00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:55.679 senior enlisted who were described to me fitting in that category, 937 00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:58.599 for whatever reason, fell into blue. And I don't know, 938 00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:02.599 I guess I can't speak to why that culture within 939 00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:06.039 the pirates may have existed. They also had, you know, 940 00:55:06.079 --> 00:55:07.960 they were off the rails for a couple of years. 941 00:55:09.559 --> 00:55:11.320 They just have different you know, it's the way they 942 00:55:11.320 --> 00:55:13.239 compete with each other, it's the way they differentiate from 943 00:55:13.239 --> 00:55:15.000 each other. And it happened organically. 944 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.079 I mean, in some cases, I would think that like violence, 945 00:55:19.440 --> 00:55:22.280 you know, you meet violence with more violence is an 946 00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:29.840 appropriate solution. But you're talking about not just violence, not 947 00:55:29.920 --> 00:55:33.679 just violence of action or or hitting targets harder, or 948 00:55:33.760 --> 00:55:39.400 expanding operations. But we're going into skinning, We're going into 949 00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:47.159 things that are probably not healthy expressions of that type 950 00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:47.719 of violence. 951 00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:50.039 Yeah, And I'm not I'm not I'm not saying I'm 952 00:55:50.039 --> 00:55:55.360 not suggesting that meeting violence with more violence is necessarily wrong, right, 953 00:55:55.480 --> 00:55:57.679 and by any way illegal. It is you know, as 954 00:55:58.320 --> 00:56:02.159 you can tell me, right, the job is one of aggression, 955 00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:06.599 but it is also and you know, the the what 956 00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:09.239 everyone will tell you from Seal Team six, of course, 957 00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:13.280 is is that the main skill is knowing when to 958 00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:16.079 be aggressive and when not to be aggressive. Right when 959 00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:18.199 you dial it down to the most basic thing, it's 960 00:56:18.599 --> 00:56:21.480 when to shoot and when not to shoot, to when 961 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:25.719 you're justified, escalation, escalation of force. And so I think 962 00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:28.400 that it is on all of these things you have 963 00:56:28.639 --> 00:56:31.840 in a soft unit. You're living on a knife's edge, 964 00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:36.039 and you need a leash, you need some kind of 965 00:56:36.039 --> 00:56:38.239 discipline to hold it together, or you go to the 966 00:56:38.320 --> 00:56:40.519 wrong side. And I think it's Seal Team six in particular. 967 00:56:41.840 --> 00:56:44.039 They have this problem. They ride this edge. They recruit 968 00:56:44.119 --> 00:56:47.400 and select for guys who are hyper aggressive, who look 969 00:56:47.440 --> 00:56:50.639 to cook cut corners to solve problems and come up 970 00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:52.599 with solutions. If you ain't cheat and you ain't trying 971 00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:56.119 concept right, And the problem is is that what and 972 00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:58.639 this is someone this is These are seals telling me this, 973 00:56:58.719 --> 00:57:01.400 older seals telling me this. That was fine prior to 974 00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:04.480 nine to eleven, but no one in the military thought 975 00:57:04.519 --> 00:57:07.840 about the effects of fifteen to twenty years of warfare 976 00:57:08.199 --> 00:57:12.920 in up close violence on the secondary and tertiary effects 977 00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:14.199 for operators. 978 00:57:14.559 --> 00:57:18.159 Yeah, I mean, I don't think many of us, certainly 979 00:57:18.199 --> 00:57:21.199 not myself, have a problem with shooting terrorists in the face, 980 00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:24.519 you know, in combat. But I want to talk about 981 00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:27.920 some things that I do think are problematic. Tell us 982 00:57:27.960 --> 00:57:30.000 about the bleedout videos. What was that about? 983 00:57:31.079 --> 00:57:36.519 Well, there was one seal in particular early on in 984 00:57:36.679 --> 00:57:39.559 Red Team, who was on some of the early deployments 985 00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:48.199 whose job was filming after the operation to identify, you know, 986 00:57:48.320 --> 00:57:51.320 who had been killed and you know, gives you know, 987 00:57:51.360 --> 00:57:55.039 sort of crime scene photos if you will, for headquarters 988 00:57:55.039 --> 00:58:01.239 and higher and he took a particular glee in replaying 989 00:58:01.280 --> 00:58:05.760 the videos in their hooches basically back at Bagram. Afterwards, 990 00:58:05.760 --> 00:58:09.760 he'd get the group together and watch the videos over 991 00:58:09.800 --> 00:58:14.519 and over and would do a sort of countdown of 992 00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:19.840 watching people expire. And you know, in and of itself, 993 00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:25.920 it was it's it's tasteless, but it's not necessarily illegal. 994 00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:30.079 What the members of Seal Team six, the leaders of 995 00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:31.840 Seal Team six that I had interviewed who told me 996 00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:34.039 about them, said was the problem was it was a 997 00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:38.320 very easy to spot sign early on that there was 998 00:58:38.679 --> 00:58:42.199 a lust for this. There was something that was inappropriate 999 00:58:42.280 --> 00:58:45.719 going on in terms of making yeah about the about 1000 00:58:45.719 --> 00:58:48.360 the enjoyment part. And it was a sign that there 1001 00:58:48.400 --> 00:58:50.239 was a there was something that needed to be rained 1002 00:58:50.280 --> 00:58:52.840 in and watched closely right in and of itself. It 1003 00:58:52.880 --> 00:58:54.960 may not be you weren't going to bring someone up 1004 00:58:55.000 --> 00:58:56.599 on charges on it, but it was. It was a 1005 00:58:56.639 --> 00:58:58.519 sign that there was a problem, and no one would 1006 00:58:58.519 --> 00:59:00.199 say anything about it. They were sort of laughing thing, 1007 00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:01.960 and and it kept on going for you know, it 1008 00:59:02.000 --> 00:59:03.599 went on for about two deployments I think, and that 1009 00:59:03.639 --> 00:59:07.639 seal later was kicked out because he he he struck 1010 00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:11.320 a teammate. He got drunk ah undeployment and pistol whiped 1011 00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:13.559 one of his teammates, so you know, and then the 1012 00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:15.079 CIA hired him. 1013 00:59:16.360 --> 00:59:18.360 What about you mentioned in the in the book also 1014 00:59:18.400 --> 00:59:20.800 that they were staging like martial arts matches. 1015 00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:26.079 At some point said in the book, yeah, well the 1016 00:59:26.119 --> 00:59:29.440 martial arts, I mean, because he talked about Dwayne Dieter 1017 00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:32.880 right in that and then they like, no, no, no, 1018 00:59:32.920 --> 00:59:33.239 not that. 1019 00:59:33.800 --> 00:59:36.159 The martials matches. It's all right, we can go on 1020 00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:38.519 to uh, the skal thing. 1021 00:59:38.880 --> 00:59:40.519 Well you can ask me that I thought that was 1022 00:59:40.519 --> 00:59:45.559 something that I didn't put in, which if I didn't 1023 00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:47.840 put in, I can you know. I don't want to. 1024 00:59:49.000 --> 00:59:50.880 It's reportable if it's in the book. If it's not 1025 00:59:51.000 --> 00:59:53.199 the book that you know, well, well I may have 1026 00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:56.480 enough to support it. Uh No, I don't want to. 1027 00:59:56.679 --> 01:00:00.719 It's mentioned in the book. But I mean, we move 1028 01:00:00.760 --> 01:00:04.639 on to the hatchets, and if you can tell us 1029 01:00:04.679 --> 01:00:09.480 how they migrated into into Seal Team six, how these 1030 01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:11.639 guys started carrying them, and I mean, what the hell 1031 01:00:11.639 --> 01:00:13.360 they were carrying them on target for. 1032 01:00:14.519 --> 01:00:18.280 So there was prior to nine to eleven there was 1033 01:00:18.599 --> 01:00:21.599 a seal operator named Kevin Holland who was in Red Team, 1034 01:00:22.000 --> 01:00:27.280 who was a avid outdoorsman and was I don't know 1035 01:00:27.280 --> 01:00:29.880 if he's from North Carolina. I think he's from North Carolina, 1036 01:00:29.920 --> 01:00:34.000 and he happened to be friends with the bladesmith Daniel 1037 01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:37.119 Dan Winkler, who at the time was best known in 1038 01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:41.119 that community for having made all of the appropriate era 1039 01:00:41.440 --> 01:00:44.719 piece of weapons for the movie Last of the Mohicans, 1040 01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:51.320 and Holland ended up leaving the Seals prior to nine 1041 01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:53.320 to eleven. After nine eleven, he wanted to come back 1042 01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:55.360 Seal Team six said he would have to do a 1043 01:00:55.400 --> 01:00:59.000 deployment on the white side. He refused, so he asked 1044 01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:01.280 Delta if he could joined. They said, if you can 1045 01:01:01.320 --> 01:01:05.639 pass the uh, the course, you know, in the selection, 1046 01:01:05.719 --> 01:01:09.440 you're in. He became a member of C Squadron and 1047 01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:14.880 he got Winkler to excuse me, to make uh these 1048 01:01:16.199 --> 01:01:22.440 hatchets tomahawks for his teammates in Delta. They were numbered 1049 01:01:22.440 --> 01:01:24.920 the original ones on the handles had like one, I 1050 01:01:24.920 --> 01:01:27.320 don't know if it was two digits, three digits one 1051 01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:32.360 or one up through you know, ten or eleven. And 1052 01:01:32.440 --> 01:01:35.519 they were deployed. They were used by and carried by 1053 01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:38.119 Delta in the early years of the war in Rock 1054 01:01:38.199 --> 01:01:42.760 Oh four I think five. At that time, Seal Team 1055 01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:47.039 six was being assigned to do deployments onesie tuoesies do 1056 01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:53.880 deployments with CAG and the Seals saw uh. And the 1057 01:01:54.440 --> 01:01:56.320 some of the Seals who were from Red Team and 1058 01:01:56.360 --> 01:02:00.239 then later Red Squadron understood, you know, Kevin Holland was 1059 01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:03.840 a former Red Squadron guy, and they sort of, you know, 1060 01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:06.119 came upon the idea that hey, we're Red Squadron, we're 1061 01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:09.280 the Red Men, we should have these tomahawks. So Red 1062 01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:12.239 Team at that time was led by a young commander 1063 01:02:12.320 --> 01:02:18.400 named Wyman Howard, and Howard and his master chief, Jimmy Lindell, 1064 01:02:20.000 --> 01:02:23.920 came up with the idea of getting donors to pay 1065 01:02:24.039 --> 01:02:27.719 for making them their custom made. I think on the 1066 01:02:29.000 --> 01:02:32.519 commercial market they cost six hundred bucks. I think to 1067 01:02:32.639 --> 01:02:36.199 make they're about three hundred bucks. So he got people 1068 01:02:36.239 --> 01:02:38.920 to donate three hundred and fifty dollars to have them 1069 01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:41.960 made and then would hand them out to every member 1070 01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:44.480 of Red Squadron who had a year of service in 1071 01:02:44.519 --> 01:02:50.039 the squadron. At that same time, Howard was giving sort 1072 01:02:50.079 --> 01:02:52.880 of pep talks about because it was the Red Men, 1073 01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:56.079 about bloodying your hatchet, getting you know, getting blood on 1074 01:02:56.119 --> 01:02:58.480 your hatchet. Well, you know, at times it was a 1075 01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:01.280 euphemism for you know, did you shoot, did you did 1076 01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:04.480 you kill? You know, you were you in action and 1077 01:03:04.800 --> 01:03:11.079 in combat? And unfortunately those were words and just the 1078 01:03:11.159 --> 01:03:16.519 right encouragement for guys in Red Squadron to start using 1079 01:03:16.599 --> 01:03:18.760 the hatchets. Not everyone carried them, by the way. I 1080 01:03:18.920 --> 01:03:20.920 talked to plenty of people in Red Squadron who felt 1081 01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:24.000 that there was zero military utility or use for them. 1082 01:03:24.760 --> 01:03:26.760 Others who thought, you know, it's great for knocking down 1083 01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:30.000 locks and doors. But yes, they used the hatchets. Some 1084 01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:34.039 of them used the hatchets to desecrate bodies, in part 1085 01:03:34.079 --> 01:03:37.440 to leave a message for the enemy when they picked 1086 01:03:37.480 --> 01:03:41.840 their comrades up on the battlefield to bury them, that 1087 01:03:42.119 --> 01:03:44.679 Red Squadron had been there, that the Americans had been there, 1088 01:03:44.840 --> 01:03:48.159 that there was psychological there was a psychological warfare component 1089 01:03:48.519 --> 01:03:51.119 to it. It wasn't a direction, it wasn't in order. 1090 01:03:51.440 --> 01:03:54.039 It was known, it was understood it was going on. 1091 01:03:54.119 --> 01:03:57.480 It was well known within Sealed Team six. And there's 1092 01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:00.280 another case going back to, you know, asking where the 1093 01:04:00.280 --> 01:04:03.079 officers and what are they doing? You know, as long 1094 01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:06.360 as there weren't reports coming up to the five level 1095 01:04:06.440 --> 01:04:08.960 or the six level or outside the unit that this 1096 01:04:09.079 --> 01:04:13.039 was going on, you know who felt bad for the 1097 01:04:13.159 --> 01:04:16.519 enemy and that took on a life. But I think 1098 01:04:16.519 --> 01:04:20.480 it's it. It happens to be pretty symbolic of, you know, 1099 01:04:21.000 --> 01:04:25.440 the lawlessness and the sort of renegade culture that took 1100 01:04:25.519 --> 01:04:30.039 over at you know, during the peak of the wars. 1101 01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:33.320 I'll just read this briefly and if you don't want 1102 01:04:33.320 --> 01:04:36.199 to comment deeper on it, it's it's fine but this 1103 01:04:36.280 --> 01:04:39.840 is on one. The commanding officer of Seal Team six 1104 01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:42.480 at that time, Captain Scott Moore, and his deputy, Captain 1105 01:04:42.519 --> 01:04:46.199 Tim Semanski, received reports from the battlefield their operators were 1106 01:04:46.280 --> 01:04:49.519 using the weapons to hack dead and dying militants. The 1107 01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:52.800 reports were not limited to Howard's Redman. Small groups within 1108 01:04:52.840 --> 01:04:55.599 the command were skinning the dead, and others practice to 1109 01:04:55.679 --> 01:04:59.840 mixed martial arts on detainees. The news that American servicemen 1110 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:03.559 were engaged in such senseless brutality would seem to shock 1111 01:05:03.599 --> 01:05:06.360 the conscience, but at the command, no one said or 1112 01:05:06.400 --> 01:05:07.400 did anything about it. 1113 01:05:07.480 --> 01:05:12.039 Okay, So at the time that those reports came in, 1114 01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:16.800 I believe in sometime in two thousand and seven, and 1115 01:05:16.880 --> 01:05:21.000 at the time, Gold Squadron had been deployed in Iraq. 1116 01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:28.159 And the description of Gold Squadron again, let's make the 1117 01:05:28.199 --> 01:05:31.039 caveat here. We're not talking about everyone in a squadron. 1118 01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:33.360 We're not even talking about everyone in a troop. We 1119 01:05:33.400 --> 01:05:38.360 are talking largely about onesie twosies. But they traveled. It 1120 01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:40.559 was like having a little virus that would go from 1121 01:05:40.599 --> 01:05:43.480 one group to another, especially if they moved from one 1122 01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:48.159 squadron to another. They were as it was described to me, 1123 01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:55.000 there were some operators in Gold Squadron who would hit 1124 01:05:55.000 --> 01:06:00.760 a compound, would separate the men from the women and 1125 01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:06.320 the children. As it was described to me, if you 1126 01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:09.559 knew who the bad guy was, or there was someone 1127 01:06:09.599 --> 01:06:14.360 who got lippy and aggressive, there was a period of 1128 01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:18.199 time where team six operators again not all of them, 1129 01:06:18.599 --> 01:06:24.320 would bring your offender into a room two seals. One 1130 01:06:24.360 --> 01:06:28.480 would stand by the door with his uniform on, everything 1131 01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:33.119 equipment on the other. One would explain, you know, here's 1132 01:06:33.159 --> 01:06:35.280 a question. Did they do it through a translator? How 1133 01:06:35.280 --> 01:06:38.119 did they Basically he would take off his gear and say, 1134 01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:41.480 we're going to grapple. If you can win, you can 1135 01:06:42.079 --> 01:06:45.079 walk out of here. It was never possible, of course, 1136 01:06:45.079 --> 01:06:49.159 because the teammate was always standing there, and they would 1137 01:06:49.199 --> 01:06:52.280 grapple and use their skills to kill a target. How 1138 01:06:52.280 --> 01:06:55.039 they were on site, so they were all sorts of 1139 01:06:55.599 --> 01:07:01.039 legal gray areas. They were not detainees because they had 1140 01:07:01.079 --> 01:07:04.639 not yet been detained, and part of the purpose was 1141 01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:08.159 to take that individual out to the rest who were 1142 01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:12.400 getting t q'ed and tactical questioning and make it very 1143 01:07:12.400 --> 01:07:15.159 clear verbally and nonverbally that this is what happens if 1144 01:07:15.159 --> 01:07:18.840 you don't cooperate. As it was explained to me, this 1145 01:07:19.000 --> 01:07:21.519 was not done willy nilly with guys who you know 1146 01:07:21.559 --> 01:07:24.760 that the people that they were practicing their m m 1147 01:07:24.840 --> 01:07:28.159 A and martial arts skills on were not innocent. They 1148 01:07:28.159 --> 01:07:31.440 were legitimate targets. Not in that scenario, Let's be clear, 1149 01:07:31.519 --> 01:07:35.519 this was not an acceptable thing. But in the in 1150 01:07:35.559 --> 01:07:38.280 the in the yeah, for the for lack of a 1151 01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:40.400 better term, they were bad guys, and in the spectrum 1152 01:07:40.639 --> 01:07:43.559 of things, no one in the US military was going 1153 01:07:43.599 --> 01:07:47.679 to have any concern about about a this particular individual 1154 01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:54.119 have been deceased, right, you know, it's it's uh a 1155 01:07:54.159 --> 01:07:58.119 pretty awful and upsetting description of of it. There was 1156 01:07:58.320 --> 01:08:01.599 a you know, I looked into it a lot. One 1157 01:08:01.599 --> 01:08:07.280 of the descriptions I got of why was the guys 1158 01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:11.760 didn't have the ability to use their martial art training 1159 01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:14.840 and skills in any other capacity. They had done all 1160 01:08:14.840 --> 01:08:18.439 of this training, They were aggressive, They were doing a 1161 01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:21.039 lot of missions out. You know, I can't tell you 1162 01:08:21.439 --> 01:08:23.840 how many of those incidents there were. There was more 1163 01:08:23.840 --> 01:08:27.640 than one that I can say. And the only reason 1164 01:08:27.680 --> 01:08:29.920 why I wasn't sure I couldn't remember what I put 1165 01:08:29.920 --> 01:08:32.840 in in the book. There there are certain you know, 1166 01:08:33.319 --> 01:08:35.359 I try to limit it sometimes to sort of the 1167 01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:41.279 top level, but you know, it's sort of self explanatory. 1168 01:08:41.319 --> 01:08:44.439 It's a pretty awful thing. And I think, you know, 1169 01:08:44.840 --> 01:08:47.399 I think all of this fits in the category of 1170 01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:52.760 there's so much that we don't know. You know, there 1171 01:08:52.920 --> 01:08:57.479 is more that will never be shared outside of those 1172 01:08:57.479 --> 01:09:01.560 who were there, and it's a you know, it's a 1173 01:09:01.640 --> 01:09:04.960 very dark place. You know, there were some really bad 1174 01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:05.680 stuff that went on. 1175 01:09:06.319 --> 01:09:08.800 Tell us more about Wyman, who seems to be at 1176 01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:11.840 the center of a good deal of this and what 1177 01:09:11.960 --> 01:09:13.680 he's a commander of Warcom now. 1178 01:09:13.600 --> 01:09:14.960 He is, He's a two star. 1179 01:09:15.840 --> 01:09:17.479 He's been pitched in the press, I mean in the 1180 01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:19.680 Associated Press is like the guy who's coming to clean 1181 01:09:19.720 --> 01:09:20.239 everything up. 1182 01:09:20.399 --> 01:09:22.960 That's he's very good at media and he has done, 1183 01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:26.079 by the way, let's give him credit where credit is due. 1184 01:09:26.159 --> 01:09:29.159 Since he took over Warcom in the aftermath of the 1185 01:09:29.319 --> 01:09:34.279 Eddie Gallagher stuff, he has instituted some changes to the 1186 01:09:34.319 --> 01:09:37.680 way the Seals are organized and the way they're trained, 1187 01:09:37.760 --> 01:09:41.760 especially the officers, that the leadership courses and stuff like 1188 01:09:41.800 --> 01:09:44.840 that that are going to be beneficial. They will be 1189 01:09:45.079 --> 01:09:48.479 you know they're good. I will say that there's certainly 1190 01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:54.800 a very strong feeling that Howard's changes with the size 1191 01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:57.479 and makeup of the platoons of the White Side Seals 1192 01:09:57.640 --> 01:10:02.239 is a quantity you know, getting rid of the notion 1193 01:10:02.279 --> 01:10:04.239 of quantity over quality and going back the other way 1194 01:10:04.239 --> 01:10:07.159 to pre nine to eleven. There's another, you know, more 1195 01:10:07.159 --> 01:10:09.800 cynical view, which is that if you dump the number 1196 01:10:09.800 --> 01:10:13.239 of Seals and you keep a good larger portion of 1197 01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:17.239 them from going abroad, you're gonna have fewer problems, which is, 1198 01:10:17.640 --> 01:10:19.079 you know what you hope for when you want to 1199 01:10:19.119 --> 01:10:23.560 ride out a two year term and tour, get your 1200 01:10:23.560 --> 01:10:29.520 third star and move on. Wyman Howard is your absolute 1201 01:10:29.600 --> 01:10:34.600 best example of what Seal Team six was and what 1202 01:10:34.640 --> 01:10:39.000 it became after nine to eleven. Howard is a descendant 1203 01:10:39.239 --> 01:10:44.079 of I think two admirals on either side of his family. 1204 01:10:44.600 --> 01:10:48.760 His father was a captain in the Navy. He Naval 1205 01:10:49.119 --> 01:10:53.199 Academy graduate, was a West Coast seal. I think he 1206 01:10:53.239 --> 01:10:56.560 was Seal Team one and Seal Team eight. He was 1207 01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:03.399 at one point the lowest ranked officer at his rank 1208 01:11:04.880 --> 01:11:08.520 on the East Coast. I believe he was eventually allowed 1209 01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:11.560 to select for he wasn't selected. He failed selection to 1210 01:11:11.600 --> 01:11:14.760 Seal Team six. However, at the time the deputy commander 1211 01:11:14.760 --> 01:11:19.119 of Seal Team six had been his his OIC and 1212 01:11:19.199 --> 01:11:23.319 his superior at his previous Seal team liked him and 1213 01:11:23.520 --> 01:11:28.000 convinced Bert Callen to let him go into Green Team. 1214 01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:32.960 He was brought into Green Team, and the instructors at 1215 01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:36.760 Green Team were told that unless he you know, I've 1216 01:11:36.760 --> 01:11:39.840 been using this hypothetically, unless he kills someone during training, 1217 01:11:40.119 --> 01:11:42.359 you can't fail him, and so he was allowed to 1218 01:11:42.399 --> 01:11:44.720 pass down. He by the description of guys who were 1219 01:11:44.720 --> 01:11:49.159 in his class at Green Team, he was not the worst. 1220 01:11:49.199 --> 01:11:50.920 He was in the middle. He was kind of mediocre, 1221 01:11:51.239 --> 01:11:54.760 not the worst, definitely not. The best point was was 1222 01:11:54.760 --> 01:11:58.079 that he actually hadn't earned his way into Seal Team six, right. 1223 01:11:58.159 --> 01:12:01.800 The standard was relaxed so that and as one person said, 1224 01:12:02.039 --> 01:12:04.840 Cowan said, look, I was told he could do paperwork 1225 01:12:04.920 --> 01:12:06.680 very well, he was smart, and he was going to 1226 01:12:06.720 --> 01:12:10.159 help us administratively. Goes through the Green Team, gets into 1227 01:12:10.199 --> 01:12:13.680 Green Team, gets put into Red Team, he gets fired 1228 01:12:13.960 --> 01:12:17.319 or pushed out at Red Team. Nine to eleven happens. 1229 01:12:17.359 --> 01:12:21.000 He's in what later became Black Team. He basically got 1230 01:12:21.319 --> 01:12:23.720 pushed forward. He was in Afghanistan early as part of 1231 01:12:23.720 --> 01:12:28.520 the AFO working for Scottie Miller and resurrected his career. 1232 01:12:29.119 --> 01:12:32.600 He goes back as the oicee of Red Team a 1233 01:12:32.600 --> 01:12:37.079 few years later. At that point they were still the 1234 01:12:37.119 --> 01:12:41.560 teams and not squadrons, and he does this thing. What 1235 01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:46.159 makes Howard unusual is is that he ultimately did essentially 1236 01:12:46.239 --> 01:12:48.560 two they I guess they call it a double pump. 1237 01:12:48.560 --> 01:12:52.600 He did two rotations as the leader of Red. First 1238 01:12:52.600 --> 01:12:54.279 it was as Red Team and then later as the 1239 01:12:54.319 --> 01:12:57.199 commanding officer of Red Squadron. And so he had an 1240 01:12:57.319 --> 01:13:01.920 unusually long period of time at Red Squadron, and at 1241 01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:06.840 that time, with that group and their native American identity 1242 01:13:06.960 --> 01:13:09.920 and pushing of the hatchets, you start to see and 1243 01:13:09.960 --> 01:13:13.680 remember again it's Red Squadron that went through what happened 1244 01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:15.840 up on Robert's Ridge. Right when those guys who get 1245 01:13:15.880 --> 01:13:19.880 drafted into Red go into the team room, there is 1246 01:13:20.520 --> 01:13:26.000 Neil Roberts bent weapon on the wall as a reminder of, 1247 01:13:27.439 --> 01:13:31.079 you know, the sacrifice and what they lost. And so 1248 01:13:31.319 --> 01:13:36.920 Howard is by all accounts incredibly intelligent, very bright, very 1249 01:13:36.960 --> 01:13:42.319 hard working, and you know, was known to essentially look 1250 01:13:42.359 --> 01:13:45.880 the other way when his men were out using the 1251 01:13:45.920 --> 01:13:53.119 hatchets to desecrate bodies. There were you know, he ultimately 1252 01:13:53.199 --> 01:13:55.479 ended up as the commanding officer of Sealed Team six 1253 01:13:55.520 --> 01:13:59.760 as a as a captain, went to Jaysack, then he 1254 01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:04.479 was at He did a stint at one of the 1255 01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:08.279 d O D I don't remember if it was if 1256 01:14:08.279 --> 01:14:11.359 it was n GA, I can't remember which of the 1257 01:14:11.359 --> 01:14:14.800 intelligence agencies he served in. He got a job in 1258 01:14:14.800 --> 01:14:19.000 the Pentagon, and then he ended up at Sachsen down Tampa, 1259 01:14:19.000 --> 01:14:22.039 and then he ended up at Warcom. And so if 1260 01:14:22.079 --> 01:14:27.439 you sort of take his example singularly, a guy who 1261 01:14:27.960 --> 01:14:30.560 was not qualified or didn't qualify to make it to 1262 01:14:30.600 --> 01:14:34.439 Seal Team six, but because of connections was allowed to write. 1263 01:14:34.520 --> 01:14:39.079 And at that time the skipper at Seal Team six, 1264 01:14:39.199 --> 01:14:42.880 Joe Kernin sorry at the time, which nine to eleven happens? 1265 01:14:44.119 --> 01:14:46.560 They plus up at that time he would only promote 1266 01:14:46.560 --> 01:14:49.720 and allow in officers whould come from the Naval Academy. 1267 01:14:50.159 --> 01:14:52.600 So there was you know, within a culture, there was 1268 01:14:52.760 --> 01:14:56.640 another subculture elitism, you know, a mix between a country 1269 01:14:56.680 --> 01:15:00.960 club and a fraternity, right, and you had someone who 1270 01:15:01.039 --> 01:15:06.079 wasn't qualified or hadn't qualified got in any way, you know, 1271 01:15:06.199 --> 01:15:08.079 sort of the syndrome of being born with a silver 1272 01:15:08.119 --> 01:15:10.359 spoon in your mouth, right right, and and then you 1273 01:15:10.520 --> 01:15:14.920 end up in a leading very aggressive guys, and how 1274 01:15:14.920 --> 01:15:18.000 do you maintain their respect? How do you earn their respect? 1275 01:15:18.199 --> 01:15:21.840 It's not through discipline, That's how it's been described to me. 1276 01:15:22.399 --> 01:15:25.079 There are most of the operators that I ever interviewed 1277 01:15:25.079 --> 01:15:29.279 who worked under for Wyman love him. He was highly aggressive. 1278 01:15:29.760 --> 01:15:34.039 He matched. He very much looked at what M. Crystal 1279 01:15:34.159 --> 01:15:37.520 was doing and was putting out and matched it. If 1280 01:15:37.560 --> 01:15:40.239 you you know, if you're not out operating, you're not 1281 01:15:40.960 --> 01:15:44.079 doing it right. It's very aggressive. Later there were problems 1282 01:15:44.600 --> 01:15:47.880 at Sealed Team six under his command with officers who 1283 01:15:47.920 --> 01:15:51.239 disagreed with how aggressive he was. I was told recently 1284 01:15:51.319 --> 01:15:54.199 that in the Afghan papers there is a lot of 1285 01:15:54.239 --> 01:15:59.880 description of Howard's leadership on the battlefield in Afghanistan and 1286 01:16:00.039 --> 01:16:04.520 criticism about the over aggressiveness and posture of the unit. 1287 01:16:04.680 --> 01:16:06.920 I haven't seen them myself, so I can't comment about, 1288 01:16:07.520 --> 01:16:11.359 you know, how accurate that is. But he's sort of 1289 01:16:11.359 --> 01:16:15.760 your best example he has. He's got a I think 1290 01:16:16.119 --> 01:16:20.479 he's got a story that started and also gives you 1291 01:16:20.640 --> 01:16:23.720 a sense of the Seal Team six, at least part 1292 01:16:23.720 --> 01:16:26.199 of the Seal Team six culture of the branding. He 1293 01:16:26.279 --> 01:16:29.600 and his younger officers used to sit around and discuss 1294 01:16:29.600 --> 01:16:33.159 how great, how great they were as leaders amongst themselves, 1295 01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:37.640 and the logic went like this, Red Squadron are the 1296 01:16:37.680 --> 01:16:40.520 best operators at Seal Team six. Sale Team six is 1297 01:16:40.520 --> 01:16:46.000 the best unit in the US military, and Red Squadron 1298 01:16:46.039 --> 01:16:50.600 officers lead these men air go Red Squadron officers are 1299 01:16:50.640 --> 01:16:53.760 the best leaders of men, and therefore, when we are 1300 01:16:53.760 --> 01:16:57.159 out of the military, we should become our officers should 1301 01:16:57.159 --> 01:17:01.279 become senators and presidents. That story was meanwhile, that was 1302 01:17:01.319 --> 01:17:04.920 discussed among you know, Wyman and his younger his junior 1303 01:17:05.079 --> 01:17:08.159 officer corps. At a time, it was a running joke 1304 01:17:08.199 --> 01:17:10.119 at the rest of the command with the officer corps 1305 01:17:10.239 --> 01:17:12.520 that it was all invented, that it was this presumption 1306 01:17:12.600 --> 01:17:15.600 that there was something special about them. You know, we 1307 01:17:15.640 --> 01:17:18.199 can get into a question of seals and leader leadership 1308 01:17:18.279 --> 01:17:21.239 and seals later. But by the time he ends up 1309 01:17:21.239 --> 01:17:23.399 in Tampa as a I don't know if he had 1310 01:17:23.399 --> 01:17:25.159 a second star yet, but definitely had a one star. 1311 01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:30.560 The story now went like this. There's a group of 1312 01:17:30.600 --> 01:17:34.760 Seal Team six officers who have selected me to be 1313 01:17:34.920 --> 01:17:37.079 the first member of Seal Team six to run for 1314 01:17:37.159 --> 01:17:40.840 president of the United States. And you know, I actually 1315 01:17:41.039 --> 01:17:43.960 I wanted to double check that recently because I put it. 1316 01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:45.840 I did an excerpt for the book at the intercept, 1317 01:17:45.880 --> 01:17:49.359 and I put in some new stuff in there, and 1318 01:17:49.399 --> 01:17:51.439 I called it a source from the Pentagon who knew 1319 01:17:51.479 --> 01:17:53.760 Wyman well, And I said, you know, I had already 1320 01:17:54.119 --> 01:17:56.159 heard the story from several people from the Seals, but 1321 01:17:56.199 --> 01:18:00.800 I called a friend at the Pentagon and I said, 1322 01:18:00.800 --> 01:18:03.359 have you ever heard this story about Wyman? You know, 1323 01:18:03.640 --> 01:18:07.560 running for president? So are you kidding me? Howard tells 1324 01:18:07.680 --> 01:18:11.119 anyone who will listen, he is going to be the 1325 01:18:11.159 --> 01:18:16.039 first Seal Team president in American history. So you get 1326 01:18:16.039 --> 01:18:20.840 a sense of the ambition, right, and the mindset, which, 1327 01:18:21.000 --> 01:18:24.439 you know, a massive ego, you know, often I think 1328 01:18:24.479 --> 01:18:27.000 most people would agree, has very little self awareness. 1329 01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:28.439 You know. 1330 01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:30.479 He's someone who I think when he went to Congress 1331 01:18:30.520 --> 01:18:35.159 and and AP covered it, his posture was we are humble, right, 1332 01:18:35.239 --> 01:18:37.640 I mean, everyone who's ever worked with him, and that 1333 01:18:37.760 --> 01:18:39.840 as a word that has never come across anyone's mouth. 1334 01:18:39.960 --> 01:18:43.680 Is humble. I mean that was his problem at Seal 1335 01:18:43.760 --> 01:18:46.079 Team six, was that there was virtually no humility. 1336 01:18:46.119 --> 01:18:48.880 Well, what do you think this guy's propensity? I mean, 1337 01:18:48.880 --> 01:18:52.399 whatever people think about Seals or Seal Team six or whatever. 1338 01:18:53.239 --> 01:18:56.119 As a previous commander of the Seals said, we have 1339 01:18:56.159 --> 01:18:59.920 a problem that needs to be addressed. Is Wyman the guy? 1340 01:19:00.039 --> 01:19:02.319 I mean? Can he do it? Can he reform and 1341 01:19:02.359 --> 01:19:03.560 get them back on track? 1342 01:19:03.880 --> 01:19:07.399 I think, as someone said to me, when Wyman was 1343 01:19:07.479 --> 01:19:10.199 chosen as the commander of Warcom, it was truly a 1344 01:19:10.239 --> 01:19:14.640 case of picking the fox to guard the henhouse. You 1345 01:19:14.920 --> 01:19:22.199 cannot expect a Seal Team six leader who is part 1346 01:19:22.319 --> 01:19:26.399 of the creation of the problem and is also a 1347 01:19:26.439 --> 01:19:29.640 product of the problem at Seal Team six that filtered 1348 01:19:29.680 --> 01:19:33.880 down into the larger community over two decades to possibly 1349 01:19:33.920 --> 01:19:36.079 be the person who could deliver the message that we 1350 01:19:36.159 --> 01:19:38.439 have to clean up now. He's smart, and he can 1351 01:19:38.520 --> 01:19:41.359 make changes, and as I said, some of his fixes 1352 01:19:41.359 --> 01:19:43.880 have been described to me as being very good. And 1353 01:19:43.920 --> 01:19:46.439 in a couple of years or within a generation, there'll 1354 01:19:46.439 --> 01:19:51.880 be a better officer Corps. To some extent, That's about 1355 01:19:51.880 --> 01:19:53.760 as far as it goes. And I think, you know 1356 01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:58.479 I mentioned earlier or before we went on that there's 1357 01:19:58.560 --> 01:20:02.439 a story I'm going to uh break a story I 1358 01:20:02.439 --> 01:20:06.039 think when the Ukrainian assuming that there's any kind of 1359 01:20:06.039 --> 01:20:08.079 resolution in Ukraine, but in the future, in the not 1360 01:20:08.119 --> 01:20:11.560 too distant future, that is another It's a smaller scandal, 1361 01:20:11.720 --> 01:20:15.079 seal scandal, but it's a scandal and it will reflect 1362 01:20:15.119 --> 01:20:18.199 exactly this issue, which is Wyman is not women. Hower 1363 01:20:18.279 --> 01:20:20.720 is not responsible at all for all of you know, 1364 01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:26.359 the problems he's he's he is a great example of 1365 01:20:26.439 --> 01:20:29.840 where their culture went wrong, how it didn't correct itself, 1366 01:20:30.720 --> 01:20:33.479 and so the notion that he should be picked or 1367 01:20:33.600 --> 01:20:37.840 being the leader of the larger community, I think is 1368 01:20:38.640 --> 01:20:41.159 you know, I've talked to a lot of current Seal 1369 01:20:41.199 --> 01:20:45.039 officers who were frankly disgusted when he was picked. Now, 1370 01:20:45.119 --> 01:20:47.079 they had a thin bench, and there was some recognition 1371 01:20:47.119 --> 01:20:51.439 that on paper he was probably ideal, but they were 1372 01:20:51.439 --> 01:20:54.359 not happy. The Seals who were in the command long enough, 1373 01:20:55.119 --> 01:20:57.840 who've been around and have worked with Howard were not happy. 1374 01:20:57.880 --> 01:21:01.159 Now, is is it possible they just an acts to grind? 1375 01:21:01.840 --> 01:21:04.920 There are always access to grind, and it very well 1376 01:21:04.960 --> 01:21:08.399 could be that there are people who simply don't like him. 1377 01:21:08.399 --> 01:21:09.680 There are a lot of people who don't like them, 1378 01:21:09.680 --> 01:21:11.000 there are a lot of people who do like him. 1379 01:21:13.159 --> 01:21:13.960 I try my. 1380 01:21:14.000 --> 01:21:19.079 Best, I think, to recognize the difference between someone who 1381 01:21:19.079 --> 01:21:22.880 doesn't like someone because of their personality and someone who 1382 01:21:22.960 --> 01:21:28.039 can point to, hey, here, you know are things A, B, C, 1383 01:21:28.399 --> 01:21:31.359 D and E that this person did when they were 1384 01:21:31.399 --> 01:21:37.920 in charge that were fundamentally wrong or misguided and certainly 1385 01:21:38.000 --> 01:21:42.800 disqualifying for promotion. Let alone you know such a position. 1386 01:21:42.880 --> 01:21:45.119 So it's always the case. Look, I think, you know, 1387 01:21:45.199 --> 01:21:47.520 as an investigative journalist, as any journalist, when you're dealing 1388 01:21:47.520 --> 01:21:50.000 with stories like this, everyone has some acts to grind. 1389 01:21:50.479 --> 01:21:51.920 My job is to try to figure out what that 1390 01:21:51.960 --> 01:21:56.760 acts is and and adjust for it, and you know, 1391 01:21:56.840 --> 01:21:59.720 accept what it is, recognize where it is. You know, 1392 01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:02.800 you find out that someone hates someone because you know 1393 01:22:02.840 --> 01:22:04.840 that someone slept with someone's wife and that there's a 1394 01:22:04.880 --> 01:22:07.720 there's a personal beef or animis and that may be it. 1395 01:22:07.760 --> 01:22:10.439 That doesn't mean that what they're saying isn't true, right. 1396 01:22:10.279 --> 01:22:13.239 So in the in the book, I mean, one of 1397 01:22:13.279 --> 01:22:15.600 the things that people have to understand about the War 1398 01:22:15.640 --> 01:22:18.680 on Terror is that none of these units work by themselves, 1399 01:22:18.720 --> 01:22:20.920 that there are all these enablers that there's a Joint 1400 01:22:20.920 --> 01:22:23.239 Special Operations Task Force, and on and on and on 1401 01:22:23.279 --> 01:22:26.760 with these different commands and task forces and so on. 1402 01:22:26.760 --> 01:22:29.319 One of the elements the Seals got detached to at 1403 01:22:29.399 --> 01:22:32.359 various times of the was the Omega teams. There's a 1404 01:22:32.439 --> 01:22:35.720 very interesting story in your book about how a CIA 1405 01:22:35.880 --> 01:22:39.800 officer tried to complain about some of these behaviors and 1406 01:22:39.880 --> 01:22:42.000 to try to blow the whistle on it internally in 1407 01:22:42.039 --> 01:22:44.479 the bureaucracy. Could you tell us about that and what 1408 01:22:44.640 --> 01:22:45.439 happened to that guy? 1409 01:22:45.560 --> 01:22:49.520 Sure. First, I want to just say that that one 1410 01:22:49.560 --> 01:22:54.680 of the sources for that section was a at that 1411 01:22:54.800 --> 01:22:59.680 time was a member of the CIA, employee of the CIA, 1412 01:22:59.800 --> 01:23:05.079 but was a former Seal and had a long experience 1413 01:23:05.159 --> 01:23:08.920 with the Seals and Seal Team six. It's important again 1414 01:23:09.159 --> 01:23:12.880 going back to just context and understanding, you know, where 1415 01:23:12.920 --> 01:23:15.800 some of this information comes from, and what the significances 1416 01:23:15.880 --> 01:23:22.840 of who's telling you. It's now I'm blanking on the year, 1417 01:23:22.920 --> 01:23:26.000 but I think we're talking about two thousand and eight 1418 01:23:27.239 --> 01:23:29.720 or two thousand and nine timeframe. I think two thousand 1419 01:23:29.760 --> 01:23:35.399 and nine there had been a series of joint operations 1420 01:23:35.479 --> 01:23:37.800 going out. They weren't always omegas that were going out together. 1421 01:23:37.880 --> 01:23:44.000 Sometimes it was just especially in Jalalabad, the Agency would 1422 01:23:44.239 --> 01:23:49.119 use six to help them conduct operations if they didn't 1423 01:23:49.119 --> 01:23:51.279 have much of a paramilit they didn't have a ground branch, 1424 01:23:52.479 --> 01:23:58.640 and what they kept seeing was a over aggression. There 1425 01:23:58.840 --> 01:24:02.359 was in fact, time and we can get into this, 1426 01:24:03.960 --> 01:24:06.039 there was an incident in which they had gone out 1427 01:24:06.520 --> 01:24:10.920 on an operation. Basically the CIA said look, we want 1428 01:24:10.960 --> 01:24:13.600 you to get these these four guys out. We know 1429 01:24:13.640 --> 01:24:15.359 they're in there. You know, they went in at two 1430 01:24:15.359 --> 01:24:20.039 in the morning, three in the morning, Sealed Team six 1431 01:24:20.079 --> 01:24:21.600 goes in. I think at that time it was Gold 1432 01:24:21.920 --> 01:24:25.920 Gold Squadron went in. The targets were all sleeping, they 1433 01:24:25.920 --> 01:24:27.840 were all armed, you know, had weapons next to them. 1434 01:24:27.840 --> 01:24:32.560 They were legitimate targets. They did a countdown. 1435 01:24:33.680 --> 01:24:34.319 And they. 1436 01:24:36.079 --> 01:24:38.800 Canued. I think six of the eight that were killed 1437 01:24:38.800 --> 01:24:41.720 in the operation came back out and were showing off 1438 01:24:41.720 --> 01:24:44.279 the photos of what they had just done. The CIA, 1439 01:24:44.399 --> 01:24:49.199 in particular the agency officers there were furious because the 1440 01:24:49.199 --> 01:24:51.000 guys that they had been asked to go out and 1441 01:24:51.039 --> 01:24:56.199 get and detain, they wanted for interrogation and further intelligence exploitation. 1442 01:24:56.520 --> 01:25:01.199 The mission was not killed them. They were legitimate targets 1443 01:25:01.199 --> 01:25:03.439 in the sense that they had weapons near them in 1444 01:25:03.479 --> 01:25:05.319 their bed, but they were all sleeping, so it was 1445 01:25:06.199 --> 01:25:10.159 possible to take them into custody. That incident, along with 1446 01:25:10.359 --> 01:25:15.039 several others like it, led to a former member of 1447 01:25:15.079 --> 01:25:17.880 Seal Team six who was then working for Ground Branch 1448 01:25:19.079 --> 01:25:24.039 named Rick Smothers. Richard Smithers, who had been six and 1449 01:25:24.119 --> 01:25:28.279 had once been the captain at Bud's. He complained loudly 1450 01:25:28.800 --> 01:25:33.079 to Seal Team six, first through the CIA and then 1451 01:25:33.079 --> 01:25:35.520 to Seal Team six basically their guys were off the 1452 01:25:35.600 --> 01:25:37.520 rails and that they were committing war crimes and it 1453 01:25:37.560 --> 01:25:42.399 was costing them in their area of operations. It got 1454 01:25:42.600 --> 01:25:47.520 very heated between the two sides, and Smothers and the 1455 01:25:47.560 --> 01:25:52.279 CIA basically warned that if they didn't pull Gold Squadron 1456 01:25:52.319 --> 01:25:53.960 at the time, they were going to go to the 1457 01:25:53.960 --> 01:25:58.920 press with these accusations. There was a gentleman's agreement, in 1458 01:25:58.920 --> 01:26:01.119 part because Smathers was a former member of Seal Team 1459 01:26:01.159 --> 01:26:05.680 six and very respected from his era. He had been 1460 01:26:05.680 --> 01:26:09.720 skipped over actually as to be skipper of Seal Team 1461 01:26:09.760 --> 01:26:12.800 six prior to nine to eleven, and some people felt 1462 01:26:12.800 --> 01:26:14.600 that the reason why he was complaining was because he 1463 01:26:14.640 --> 01:26:19.760 was bitter about that. But that's an aside. As it happened, 1464 01:26:19.800 --> 01:26:25.520 Gold Squadron was set to leave, and I don't remember 1465 01:26:25.520 --> 01:26:28.479 which squadron was replacing him, but it happened to be 1466 01:26:28.560 --> 01:26:30.960 that there was going to be a natural cycle anyway, 1467 01:26:31.359 --> 01:26:36.199 and Seal Team six basically asked CIA to pull smethers 1468 01:26:36.239 --> 01:26:39.439 and let him cool down outside of Afghanistan, go home, 1469 01:26:39.840 --> 01:26:42.960 and you know, basically cool the temperature down. And so 1470 01:26:43.039 --> 01:26:45.960 they did. But there was an acknowledgment on all sides, 1471 01:26:46.600 --> 01:26:50.520 both sides, that Seal Team six was committing war crimes. 1472 01:26:50.600 --> 01:26:53.800 They were violating the rules of engagement, they were violating 1473 01:26:53.800 --> 01:26:58.359 the laws of armed combat. But you know, you keep 1474 01:26:58.439 --> 01:27:01.479 you piss inside the tent, right and so they came 1475 01:27:01.600 --> 01:27:04.960 up with a solution in which both sides were happy 1476 01:27:05.399 --> 01:27:09.640 in the immediate near term, you know, and there was 1477 01:27:09.680 --> 01:27:12.000 never any accountability. And that way, it's a great example 1478 01:27:12.039 --> 01:27:14.960 again of you know, I think I think the book 1479 01:27:15.000 --> 01:27:19.800 is filled with incidents where there could have been accountability 1480 01:27:19.880 --> 01:27:22.399 and there wasn't. I think what one thing to keep 1481 01:27:22.399 --> 01:27:25.000 in mind is is that it's these are only the 1482 01:27:25.000 --> 01:27:27.840 ones that are known because they became at least internally, 1483 01:27:28.720 --> 01:27:32.199 something happened that triggered that other people that other people 1484 01:27:32.279 --> 01:27:34.920 knew about. Much of what went on went on between 1485 01:27:34.920 --> 01:27:37.359 two or three guys on an operation. 1486 01:27:37.119 --> 01:27:38.000 In a room. 1487 01:27:38.079 --> 01:27:40.920 Right, we'll never know about those things, and unless someone 1488 01:27:40.960 --> 01:27:43.640 who was there talks about it, there's nothing to that. 1489 01:27:43.840 --> 01:27:46.119 It's it can't be known right, right. 1490 01:27:46.359 --> 01:27:49.000 And but that could be said about any unit, like 1491 01:27:49.159 --> 01:27:52.000 you know, like we we don't like know when when 1492 01:27:52.039 --> 01:27:55.119 it gets down to that small size. But sort of 1493 01:27:55.119 --> 01:27:57.199 what you're kind of talking about in this is the 1494 01:27:57.319 --> 01:28:04.960 overall the officer enlisted the tendency to not self correct, 1495 01:28:05.119 --> 01:28:09.600 but to just let things keep going, even if it's 1496 01:28:09.600 --> 01:28:13.199 a few guys are like they're like the you know 1497 01:28:13.239 --> 01:28:15.600 that when you when you like pith a fish that 1498 01:28:15.800 --> 01:28:18.279 schools like it, you know, like the rest of the 1499 01:28:18.319 --> 01:28:21.319 school follows it, because you know, that's how they That's 1500 01:28:21.359 --> 01:28:23.399 how psychology works, right, That's how you work. 1501 01:28:25.039 --> 01:28:27.399 And I mean some of the. 1502 01:28:27.359 --> 01:28:30.560 Behaviors are talking to sounds sociopathic. And one of the 1503 01:28:30.560 --> 01:28:33.720 things about sociopaths is they always have a stronger frame 1504 01:28:34.039 --> 01:28:37.000 of reality. I think then then the people around them 1505 01:28:37.039 --> 01:28:39.119 they are one of percent certain that their cause is 1506 01:28:39.640 --> 01:28:43.960 right and whatnot, And it's how like relationships go awry 1507 01:28:44.000 --> 01:28:46.800 and whatnot with right. So if you have a bunch 1508 01:28:46.800 --> 01:28:52.079 of people who are emotional angry, you know, at war, 1509 01:28:52.520 --> 01:28:55.680 and then you have one person that isn't you know 1510 01:28:55.840 --> 01:28:56.920 that it's doing. 1511 01:28:56.640 --> 01:28:59.720 These types of things, it sort of makes it a norm. 1512 01:29:00.079 --> 01:29:05.560 Yeah, you know, I once interviewed a former command master 1513 01:29:05.640 --> 01:29:09.079 chief of Sealed Team six from prior to nine to 1514 01:29:09.119 --> 01:29:14.920 eleven who told me that in the eighties, when the 1515 01:29:15.039 --> 01:29:19.600 last of the Vietnam era seals were in the unit, 1516 01:29:19.760 --> 01:29:22.600 one of the things they passed down to the younger 1517 01:29:22.640 --> 01:29:27.039 guys about their experience in Vietnam was that if just 1518 01:29:27.159 --> 01:29:30.399 one guy in the team was committing war crimes, it 1519 01:29:30.520 --> 01:29:36.319 created a psychological cloud over the in time, over the 1520 01:29:36.359 --> 01:29:41.720 rest of the team. That there were these nonverbal you know, 1521 01:29:42.000 --> 01:29:45.079 these were things that weren't necessarily discussed, but they became 1522 01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:48.840 It was like a disease virus that would pass through 1523 01:29:48.840 --> 01:29:50.600 the rest of the unit and go on for the 1524 01:29:50.640 --> 01:29:52.520 rest of their lives. And you know, I will tell 1525 01:29:52.520 --> 01:29:57.119 you that that plenty of the officers gave you know, 1526 01:29:57.199 --> 01:29:59.600 had conversations like this with some of with their men. 1527 01:29:59.680 --> 01:30:02.000 You know, look, don't do anything out there that you 1528 01:30:02.000 --> 01:30:04.319 don't want it you can't live with because you have 1529 01:30:04.359 --> 01:30:05.840 to live with it for the rest of your life. 1530 01:30:06.039 --> 01:30:08.039 The problem is is that there are people who think 1531 01:30:08.079 --> 01:30:10.399 that they can live with it or wanted to see 1532 01:30:10.439 --> 01:30:13.720 and test the waters right, And so that's not necessarily 1533 01:30:13.720 --> 01:30:15.960 a strong enough guide, as you know, if you're saying 1534 01:30:15.960 --> 01:30:18.119 that one night, and in the next night you're saying, 1535 01:30:18.520 --> 01:30:21.760 you know, did you get your hatchets bloodied? Right? You know, 1536 01:30:21.800 --> 01:30:23.800 what'd you do with your hatchets kind of thing? And 1537 01:30:24.079 --> 01:30:28.479 so the I think the psychological component to this is 1538 01:30:29.479 --> 01:30:32.319 really important, and it was one that I asked Marsenko about. 1539 01:30:32.720 --> 01:30:36.199 You know, what kind of screening did you do? Well, 1540 01:30:36.239 --> 01:30:38.920 we only had the Minnesota test. Well, yeah, but you 1541 01:30:38.960 --> 01:30:41.720 had a psych right, and and you know, so you 1542 01:30:41.760 --> 01:30:45.319 screened and I interviewed that psych and he, you know, 1543 01:30:45.359 --> 01:30:48.000 he said, yeah, there was no screening. Marsenko picked who 1544 01:30:48.000 --> 01:30:52.600 he liked, and Marsinko said, yeah, I had the shrink there, 1545 01:30:52.840 --> 01:30:55.680 so that when the Navy assessed what the unit that 1546 01:30:55.720 --> 01:30:57.880 I was creating on paper, I looked like I was 1547 01:30:57.920 --> 01:31:00.640 doing all the right things. And the psycho colleges, the 1548 01:31:00.680 --> 01:31:04.800 shrink doctor Mike Whitley, who I interviewed actually not long 1549 01:31:04.880 --> 01:31:09.600 before he died shortly after. As it is Marsenko, I 1550 01:31:09.640 --> 01:31:15.159 don't want to get a reputation. And what Whitley said was, look, 1551 01:31:15.880 --> 01:31:17.680 there were a lot of great guys in the first 1552 01:31:18.079 --> 01:31:20.640 couple of in the first group of Seal Team six, 1553 01:31:20.680 --> 01:31:22.479 but there were several sociopaths. 1554 01:31:22.600 --> 01:31:22.800 Right. 1555 01:31:23.039 --> 01:31:25.239 There was absolutely no way to screen them out because 1556 01:31:25.279 --> 01:31:27.319 they hadn't done any The screening was, as Marsico said, 1557 01:31:27.319 --> 01:31:30.159 who could drink with me, who someone else had recommended, 1558 01:31:30.600 --> 01:31:32.560 who could drink with them, and who could handle their 1559 01:31:32.560 --> 01:31:35.039 liquor with me? Right, and who they had served with 1560 01:31:35.159 --> 01:31:38.159 And that was the That was the system that they used. 1561 01:31:38.159 --> 01:31:39.920 And I you know the other one. I interviewed one 1562 01:31:39.960 --> 01:31:44.359 of the Team six's xos that handled selection after Marsenco, 1563 01:31:44.399 --> 01:31:46.600 and he said it was exactly what was going on. 1564 01:31:46.680 --> 01:31:49.760 It's interesting that Delta had the same problem with their 1565 01:31:49.760 --> 01:31:54.000 initial intake of guys that the psychologist pointed to one 1566 01:31:54.000 --> 01:31:57.159 guy like, no, don't take this guy, and I was 1567 01:31:57.199 --> 01:31:59.399 told beckweth overruled him and said, no, we want this 1568 01:31:59.439 --> 01:32:02.319 guy because he's so good. That was Marshall Brown, who 1569 01:32:02.399 --> 01:32:04.279 turned out to be a serial rapist and is still 1570 01:32:04.279 --> 01:32:06.800 in federal prison to this day. So I mean, the 1571 01:32:06.880 --> 01:32:09.600 lesson I think is the selection process works when you 1572 01:32:09.640 --> 01:32:11.840 actually use it well. 1573 01:32:11.840 --> 01:32:14.000 But you know, but you know, you guys can correct 1574 01:32:14.000 --> 01:32:16.319 me if I'm wrong. Is I understand it? The Delta's 1575 01:32:16.920 --> 01:32:21.760 psychological portion of the selection screening is much more rigorous 1576 01:32:21.800 --> 01:32:23.720 and specific than Seal Team. 1577 01:32:23.640 --> 01:32:26.079 Sits now nowadays, I don't think that would ever happen, 1578 01:32:26.199 --> 01:32:29.159 but this was way back nineteen eighty. 1579 01:32:29.079 --> 01:32:33.239 Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, And I think another thing 1580 01:32:33.239 --> 01:32:36.119 I wanted to follow up on real quick or point out, 1581 01:32:36.119 --> 01:32:39.079 I guess is that you know, there's something to be 1582 01:32:39.159 --> 01:32:44.399 said for having some empathy for the operators, even ostensibly 1583 01:32:44.479 --> 01:32:45.279 war criminals. 1584 01:32:46.359 --> 01:32:48.479 You can see like people flipping out just that we 1585 01:32:48.560 --> 01:32:51.720 have a conversation on an open conversation like this. You know, 1586 01:32:51.760 --> 01:32:55.760 these guys are war fighters. Leave them alone. And it 1587 01:32:55.880 --> 01:32:58.359 really brought that to head when you were talking about 1588 01:32:58.399 --> 01:33:00.760 how a lot of guys think they can handle this 1589 01:33:00.920 --> 01:33:03.960 and they can't, and they acted like big badasses on 1590 01:33:04.039 --> 01:33:07.720 target wanting to scalp people. Okay, here we are ten 1591 01:33:07.800 --> 01:33:10.159 years later, and a lot of those dudes are cracking up, 1592 01:33:10.640 --> 01:33:13.720 and they're cracking up. They're having severe issues with PTSD. 1593 01:33:14.960 --> 01:33:18.520 Combine that with traumatic brain injuries. These guys are a 1594 01:33:18.520 --> 01:33:20.920 lot of these guys are really struggling, and I think 1595 01:33:20.960 --> 01:33:23.960 there's a case to be made now that they need help. 1596 01:33:24.039 --> 01:33:27.520 But I mean, also there's a lesson for leaders now, 1597 01:33:28.119 --> 01:33:30.920 right right at this moment to police this kind of 1598 01:33:30.960 --> 01:33:38.640 behavior with the longevity and the and the responsibility of 1599 01:33:38.680 --> 01:33:42.560 taking care of your troops long term. And you know, 1600 01:33:42.640 --> 01:33:45.880 maybe I understand how a younger soldier doesn't have the 1601 01:33:45.920 --> 01:33:48.880 maturity or the wisdom to really understand that or think 1602 01:33:48.920 --> 01:33:52.039 long term like that, but there is a responsibility on 1603 01:33:52.079 --> 01:33:55.039 the leadership, if nothing else, to police that kind of behavior. 1604 01:33:55.359 --> 01:33:58.279 And that's another way of taking care of your soldiers. 1605 01:33:58.239 --> 01:34:00.119 You know. I'm Jack, I'm really glad that you you 1606 01:34:00.680 --> 01:34:05.000 raise that point, because it's something that my sources for 1607 01:34:05.079 --> 01:34:10.479 the last five or six years have said sort of privately, 1608 01:34:10.760 --> 01:34:14.399 you know, in describing what their motivations were for talking 1609 01:34:14.800 --> 01:34:19.760 and what they wrestle with and were upset most upset with. 1610 01:34:20.119 --> 01:34:21.760 And I just give you an example. I'm going to 1611 01:34:21.800 --> 01:34:27.079 paraphrase a little bit between they were about four. I 1612 01:34:27.079 --> 01:34:29.479 don't like to get into the difference between which sources 1613 01:34:29.520 --> 01:34:31.960 are officers and which are our NCOs. I will tell 1614 01:34:31.960 --> 01:34:36.119 you that I was most always most surprised that the 1615 01:34:37.479 --> 01:34:40.600 toughest language I heard about, the disgust and the frustration 1616 01:34:40.720 --> 01:34:45.359 came from the NCOs. And given what they're the dynamic, 1617 01:34:45.399 --> 01:34:48.479 they basically were just disgusted with the failure of their 1618 01:34:48.479 --> 01:34:51.880 officers to get a hold of the problem when they 1619 01:34:51.880 --> 01:34:54.239 were warned. One of the things that someone said to 1620 01:34:54.279 --> 01:34:59.439 me once that that really shook me was look and again, 1621 01:34:59.439 --> 01:35:02.800 I'm paraphra We failed these guys. We sent these guys 1622 01:35:02.840 --> 01:35:07.520 out into a meat grinder over and over and over again. 1623 01:35:07.960 --> 01:35:10.119 We gave them none of the tools to handle the 1624 01:35:10.159 --> 01:35:14.039 parts that we gave them no warning or ability to 1625 01:35:14.079 --> 01:35:17.159 handle what they were going to experience and come back. 1626 01:35:17.199 --> 01:35:19.920 And there was a line that we had to hold 1627 01:35:20.000 --> 01:35:22.960 for them because of this issue right that if they 1628 01:35:22.960 --> 01:35:25.920 crossed that line, we're not going to send you to jail. 1629 01:35:26.119 --> 01:35:28.479 We need to pull you back and teach you we 1630 01:35:28.560 --> 01:35:30.439 don't do this right. That's how you fix it. This 1631 01:35:30.600 --> 01:35:35.159 wasn't the genesis of this book and is not Oh 1632 01:35:35.159 --> 01:35:36.760 my god, all of these guys have to go to jail. 1633 01:35:36.800 --> 01:35:40.119 It came from seals who were Seal leaders, Seal Team 1634 01:35:40.239 --> 01:35:44.119 six leaders who were saying, we failed these kids. I 1635 01:35:44.319 --> 01:35:48.119 failed these kids. I tried to do this. I tried 1636 01:35:48.159 --> 01:35:51.399 to do that. Some were tired and left the military 1637 01:35:51.760 --> 01:35:55.079 because they tried to get Seal Team six leaders to 1638 01:35:55.720 --> 01:35:59.520 deal with war crimes and they were ignored, they were refused. 1639 01:35:59.520 --> 01:36:02.359 We don't have a problem. It's not a problem. I 1640 01:36:02.359 --> 01:36:04.279 don't know what you're talking about. I mean, it was, 1641 01:36:04.399 --> 01:36:09.119 it was a and so the the empathy here is 1642 01:36:09.399 --> 01:36:11.119 and again it goes back to why I don't name 1643 01:36:11.720 --> 01:36:13.840 for the most part, I don't name the younger operators. 1644 01:36:15.720 --> 01:36:17.720 I think part of what I was trying to do 1645 01:36:17.760 --> 01:36:19.880 in the book. And I know that it's probably hard 1646 01:36:19.920 --> 01:36:22.560 for people to understand that. Most people understand this, especially 1647 01:36:22.600 --> 01:36:24.920 if you're coming from the perspective that this is some 1648 01:36:25.000 --> 01:36:29.279 kind of anti Seal book. It's not. What this is 1649 01:36:29.279 --> 01:36:33.960 is a description of failed leadership and how you what 1650 01:36:33.960 --> 01:36:35.600 the cost is to the men who do it. And 1651 01:36:35.880 --> 01:36:37.880 I think, although it may be subtle, one of the 1652 01:36:37.880 --> 01:36:40.199 ways I tried to do that in the reporting was 1653 01:36:40.239 --> 01:36:42.680 the tone that I took in writing about it. I 1654 01:36:42.800 --> 01:36:48.159 made a very concerted effort to never be strident about 1655 01:36:48.439 --> 01:36:52.279 any of what you know, the wrongdoing, and never to 1656 01:36:53.920 --> 01:36:57.640 try to you know, I tried to pull my punches 1657 01:36:57.720 --> 01:37:03.600 a little actually in the reporting because you just want 1658 01:37:03.640 --> 01:37:06.479 to get the message across through the information. You let 1659 01:37:06.479 --> 01:37:08.880 the information speak for itself and the reportings the facts 1660 01:37:08.880 --> 01:37:12.319 speak for itself. There was no need to editorialize or 1661 01:37:12.760 --> 01:37:16.439 to suggest that, you know anything, there's some kind of 1662 01:37:16.439 --> 01:37:19.520 inherent evil here and all like that. And that came 1663 01:37:19.600 --> 01:37:22.520 from very much from my sources who were saying, look, 1664 01:37:22.760 --> 01:37:25.319 the people who are suffering here are the guys that 1665 01:37:25.359 --> 01:37:28.960 we sent out there who did thirteen to fifteen deployments, 1666 01:37:29.159 --> 01:37:32.439 whose families are silently suffering because they don't even have 1667 01:37:32.479 --> 01:37:36.840 a name for the Yes, it's PTSD, yes the trauma, 1668 01:37:36.880 --> 01:37:40.000 but they don't have a name for how it is affecting. 1669 01:37:41.039 --> 01:37:43.680 It will affect their family now, it will affect their 1670 01:37:43.720 --> 01:37:46.319 next generation of their family because of the way, you know, 1671 01:37:46.359 --> 01:37:49.239 the kids are raised in that environment, right and although 1672 01:37:49.279 --> 01:37:51.439 they have some of the best psychologists and they do, 1673 01:37:51.640 --> 01:37:54.800 you know, they have a great post career community for 1674 01:37:55.319 --> 01:37:58.159 supporting each other, and they have there are some initiatives 1675 01:37:58.159 --> 01:38:03.199 that I've heard about that seem promising. Overall, they don't 1676 01:38:03.199 --> 01:38:05.680 do much right. I mean Matt Bissonette said it in 1677 01:38:05.720 --> 01:38:07.640 his book, I mean his second book, you know, he said, 1678 01:38:07.680 --> 01:38:11.079 we get trained at everything to the tea, he said, 1679 01:38:11.119 --> 01:38:14.279 but they do not train us whatsoever for the emotional 1680 01:38:14.760 --> 01:38:17.760 toll and impact of what being on the speeding train 1681 01:38:17.800 --> 01:38:18.439 will do to you. 1682 01:38:18.560 --> 01:38:23.000 Right right, well, I mean, you know, flid still, you know, 1683 01:38:23.960 --> 01:38:25.800 I think, I mean, I hope he's trading it. 1684 01:38:25.800 --> 01:38:27.680 I don't know, but you know, he's very you know, 1685 01:38:27.720 --> 01:38:28.039 he was. 1686 01:38:28.000 --> 01:38:30.159 Open about the postma stress he has. 1687 01:38:30.880 --> 01:38:34.439 You know, I think Latrell, you know, when he talks about, 1688 01:38:34.560 --> 01:38:38.640 you know, feeling like a coward, you know, like you know, 1689 01:38:39.359 --> 01:38:41.039 and I think those are the things I think that 1690 01:38:41.199 --> 01:38:43.439 like And they are gonna be people who watch this 1691 01:38:43.560 --> 01:38:48.279 and think this is an anti Seal episode, anti American 1692 01:38:48.359 --> 01:38:51.199 or anti American or anti whatever. And and I'll tell 1693 01:38:51.239 --> 01:38:54.239 you just for myself, I'm all about killing the bad guys. 1694 01:38:54.279 --> 01:38:58.199 I mean, fuck him up, right, they're they're bad guys 1695 01:38:58.319 --> 01:38:59.119 like that. 1696 01:38:59.119 --> 01:39:00.600 That's you know. 1697 01:39:00.800 --> 01:39:04.680 I even I agree with someone worthy off the book, 1698 01:39:04.760 --> 01:39:05.760 you know, off the board. 1699 01:39:05.560 --> 01:39:08.239 Type methods, but but it doesn't. 1700 01:39:07.880 --> 01:39:11.239 Do the war effort, it doesn't do the unit, and 1701 01:39:11.279 --> 01:39:15.000 it doesn't do the soul any good too, to get 1702 01:39:15.039 --> 01:39:18.880 caught up in the combat as anything other than combat, 1703 01:39:19.000 --> 01:39:22.880 anything other than you know, the mission. When it becomes 1704 01:39:22.880 --> 01:39:25.720 when you make it personal, when you make it personal, 1705 01:39:26.119 --> 01:39:31.920 when when you engage in you know, you know, mutilations 1706 01:39:32.000 --> 01:39:37.439 or things like that, the person is dead regardless of 1707 01:39:37.479 --> 01:39:39.520 any of that. 1708 01:39:39.520 --> 01:39:41.800 That's something that lives. 1709 01:39:41.840 --> 01:39:47.520 Like, That's not something I think that most people like 1710 01:39:48.039 --> 01:39:50.720 you know, like you said, it's a virus, right, It's 1711 01:39:50.760 --> 01:39:53.640 like suicide. If if a suicide happens in a unit, 1712 01:39:54.039 --> 01:39:56.800 it's a mimetic, it's a meme, it's a virus of 1713 01:39:56.880 --> 01:40:01.960 the mind. It spreads and it's will increase in that unit. 1714 01:40:02.520 --> 01:40:04.840 But but social behaviors are the same type of thing. 1715 01:40:04.920 --> 01:40:06.319 This is the same type of thing. 1716 01:40:06.720 --> 01:40:09.479 That there are people who would never There are seals 1717 01:40:09.479 --> 01:40:12.199 who had never in their entire life do something like this. 1718 01:40:12.279 --> 01:40:13.359 It wouldn't occur to them. 1719 01:40:13.920 --> 01:40:18.279 But if it becomes sort of this thematic thing where 1720 01:40:18.279 --> 01:40:22.920 it's acceptable and normalized, normalized, then you know, when we're 1721 01:40:22.920 --> 01:40:27.199 in this environment of combat and chaos and emotions and loss, 1722 01:40:27.319 --> 01:40:30.520 and we're dealing with all these different things, you know, 1723 01:40:31.319 --> 01:40:35.439 we're vulnerable, right, and so to be subjected to that 1724 01:40:35.600 --> 01:40:38.880 and then to not have anybody the officers reach in 1725 01:40:39.520 --> 01:40:44.279 and and and yank that back. Yeah, to have the 1726 01:40:44.760 --> 01:40:47.760 to not you know, and to cover it up. And 1727 01:40:47.800 --> 01:40:50.760 I'm not again, I'm not saying send the guys to jail, 1728 01:40:51.079 --> 01:40:53.680 like take care of them, like make it so this 1729 01:40:53.720 --> 01:40:57.039 isn't a normal thing, because twenty years from now, like 1730 01:40:57.079 --> 01:41:00.680 you said, this is a family thing, right, and then 1731 01:41:00.720 --> 01:41:02.279 it becomes a generational thing. 1732 01:41:02.399 --> 01:41:04.560 You know. One of the stories in the book speaking 1733 01:41:04.560 --> 01:41:06.760 about slab was this incident in two thousand and seven 1734 01:41:06.840 --> 01:41:09.560 with I think it was an E six at the time, 1735 01:41:09.600 --> 01:41:14.119 maybe I think it was E six who his commanding 1736 01:41:14.119 --> 01:41:17.000 officer caught a glimpse of him trying to cut a 1737 01:41:17.039 --> 01:41:21.319 head off of a Taliban fighter that they had killed 1738 01:41:21.319 --> 01:41:25.239 on an operation. And Slabinski, who was the master chief 1739 01:41:25.239 --> 01:41:26.880 at the time, had told his men that he wanted 1740 01:41:26.880 --> 01:41:29.399 a head on a platter, and there was you know, 1741 01:41:29.439 --> 01:41:32.920 some of the older guys heard it as it could 1742 01:41:32.920 --> 01:41:36.319 have easily been, which was just metaphorical and slab being dramatic, 1743 01:41:36.640 --> 01:41:38.680 but the younger guys didn't know the difference, and so 1744 01:41:39.840 --> 01:41:42.359 and there had been a ton of group think within 1745 01:41:42.399 --> 01:41:44.640 their unit at the time, within their troop in particular, 1746 01:41:45.399 --> 01:41:47.359 and there had been war crimes going on for the 1747 01:41:47.399 --> 01:41:52.279 whole deployment and that young man. They covered it up. 1748 01:41:52.640 --> 01:41:56.199 They got out of the NCIS investigation. Everyone was cleared, 1749 01:41:56.760 --> 01:42:00.880 but that seal at operator eventually, I think it took 1750 01:42:00.960 --> 01:42:06.279 another eight years or so. He eventually basically became medically 1751 01:42:06.319 --> 01:42:10.560 unfit to deploy. He was a psychological mess. He left 1752 01:42:10.640 --> 01:42:13.600 the unit. After he pulled himself from deploying. They sent 1753 01:42:13.720 --> 01:42:17.199 him to the Pykes. He was not fit. They sent 1754 01:42:17.279 --> 01:42:19.520 him to Group two, to the White Side where he 1755 01:42:19.560 --> 01:42:23.159 could and at that point he said he didn't want 1756 01:42:23.239 --> 01:42:26.000 to said to others, not to me, that he ever 1757 01:42:26.079 --> 01:42:27.960 wanted to deploy again. And as I understand it, he 1758 01:42:28.000 --> 01:42:33.840 has spent years in intensive therapy because he was young 1759 01:42:33.880 --> 01:42:39.000 and impressionable and with a group of seasoned enlisted out officers, 1760 01:42:39.119 --> 01:42:45.800 enlisted members of Seal Team six who believed that chopping 1761 01:42:45.800 --> 01:42:48.359 the heads off the enemy was gonna win the war. 1762 01:42:49.079 --> 01:42:52.720 And there were you know, there was some pulling back 1763 01:42:52.920 --> 01:42:56.680 of guys after that incident. There was some yelling, but 1764 01:42:57.079 --> 01:43:00.800 they also covered it up and there was zero accountability. 1765 01:43:01.520 --> 01:43:04.279 Fast forward three years later, when Slovinsky is going to 1766 01:43:04.319 --> 01:43:08.119 come back for a senior position at the command. The 1767 01:43:08.199 --> 01:43:12.399 officers and the other master chiefs at the command voted 1768 01:43:12.479 --> 01:43:14.880 him out, basically refused to let him back in. They 1769 01:43:14.920 --> 01:43:20.039 blacklisted him. And that actually acts as the only time 1770 01:43:20.399 --> 01:43:23.039 that I know of and that anyone else knows of, 1771 01:43:23.279 --> 01:43:27.640 that Seal Team six held any of their own accountable 1772 01:43:28.239 --> 01:43:32.760 for this failure of leadership and and and war crimes 1773 01:43:32.760 --> 01:43:34.800 and it and and as someone to that, We're never 1774 01:43:34.840 --> 01:43:38.000 going to send him to the brig We were never 1775 01:43:38.039 --> 01:43:40.000 going to send them to n c I S or 1776 01:43:40.439 --> 01:43:42.640 rat them out. We just never wanted him back at 1777 01:43:42.640 --> 01:43:45.239 Seal Team six. We wanted to send a message. Now 1778 01:43:45.279 --> 01:43:47.760 fast forward to that he gets awarded a medal, is 1779 01:43:47.960 --> 01:43:51.199 upgraded to the Medal of Honor, and that became you know, 1780 01:43:51.239 --> 01:43:54.560 there is just as Gallagher was, and I think, you know, 1781 01:43:54.680 --> 01:43:59.239 Dave Phillips did just a fantastic job in Alpha describing 1782 01:43:59.319 --> 01:44:05.159 the cultural war inside the teams between you know, the 1783 01:44:05.159 --> 01:44:09.279 the the good and the ugly really is what it is, 1784 01:44:09.399 --> 01:44:12.600 right and unfortunately the ugly really won in that case. 1785 01:44:13.680 --> 01:44:16.239 You know, when Slabinsky gets kicked out of Seal Team 1786 01:44:16.319 --> 01:44:20.359 six or blacklist is the more accurate. It's a good 1787 01:44:20.520 --> 01:44:24.239 description of when some where they were able to write 1788 01:44:24.239 --> 01:44:26.359 the ship on their own. It's an example, it's a 1789 01:44:26.439 --> 01:44:29.720 it's a singular example, which is part of the problem. 1790 01:44:29.960 --> 01:44:33.079 When he gets awarded the upgrade to the Medal of Honor, 1791 01:44:33.560 --> 01:44:36.840 it is absolutely a message to everybody else in Seal 1792 01:44:36.920 --> 01:44:40.479 Team six and in the teams that the cover up wins, 1793 01:44:41.159 --> 01:44:43.720 that there is you know, you are giving out the 1794 01:44:43.840 --> 01:44:48.880 highest award for valor the military that the government gives out. 1795 01:44:49.359 --> 01:44:51.960 And it's not a question of what may or may 1796 01:44:52.000 --> 01:44:55.319 not have occurred up on top of Tucker Gar although 1797 01:44:55.840 --> 01:44:59.319 that's certainly an issue that was that was broad Chapman, 1798 01:44:59.479 --> 01:45:01.239 but regards wordless of that, and that's not one that 1799 01:45:01.279 --> 01:45:07.000 I I I you know, never fought in need, you know, 1800 01:45:07.560 --> 01:45:09.680 thigh deep snow on the top of a mountain, you know, 1801 01:45:09.800 --> 01:45:14.079 under an ambush. But for everything that occurred after the fact, 1802 01:45:14.119 --> 01:45:16.279 which by the way, the regulations of the Medal of 1803 01:45:16.319 --> 01:45:21.439 Honor are you know, their actions and conduct after an 1804 01:45:21.439 --> 01:45:26.920 event are are part of the consideration. And there were 1805 01:45:27.359 --> 01:45:34.000 multiple incidents with Slabinski. He was you know, punted from 1806 01:45:34.000 --> 01:45:37.720 a unit because of war crimes and for for illegal 1807 01:45:38.399 --> 01:45:41.920 allegations of illegal orders, right, and so when he won 1808 01:45:42.439 --> 01:45:46.000 the upgrade. There were guys my phone was was just 1809 01:45:46.039 --> 01:45:50.119 the groaning. You know, I'm disgusted, We're disgusted. 1810 01:45:49.600 --> 01:45:54.439 With with with the message that's as sending to everybody 1811 01:45:54.520 --> 01:45:58.000 else in the teams who knows and and the truth 1812 01:45:58.199 --> 01:46:00.000 right so, and that that's what the book is. 1813 01:46:00.319 --> 01:46:02.880 It's not I'm not trying to make a judgment. I'm 1814 01:46:02.920 --> 01:46:05.199 literally just trying to put out the story as it is, 1815 01:46:05.920 --> 01:46:07.279 as it was, and as it is. 1816 01:46:07.359 --> 01:46:14.880 I feel as though the whole Chatman Medal of Honor episode, 1817 01:46:16.239 --> 01:46:21.319 even notwithstanding a Slovensky like not, but but what the 1818 01:46:21.399 --> 01:46:26.960 seals did, what the Seal Command did during that that 1819 01:46:27.039 --> 01:46:30.760 speaks more to me about the overall like not speaks 1820 01:46:30.760 --> 01:46:33.760 more to me. But that to me is more demonstrative 1821 01:46:34.279 --> 01:46:39.520 of the the problem with with the the Seal Command, 1822 01:46:39.600 --> 01:46:43.640 that that that seal culture then it were not than 1823 01:46:43.720 --> 01:46:44.880 any of these other things. 1824 01:46:45.039 --> 01:46:48.239 But I think it it. 1825 01:46:47.479 --> 01:46:51.399 Is easier to point to that outside of saying, well, 1826 01:46:51.439 --> 01:46:53.720 you know, you have cover ups on regular army basis 1827 01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:56.000 right where you know there's a sexual assault and the 1828 01:46:56.039 --> 01:46:58.039 commanding officer covers it up because he doesn't want it 1829 01:46:58.079 --> 01:47:03.319 to be his problem. And again I agree that there's 1830 01:47:03.359 --> 01:47:06.079 this history of this where it's in the command. I'm 1831 01:47:06.119 --> 01:47:09.920 just saying that the whole Chapman Medal of Honor thing 1832 01:47:10.880 --> 01:47:15.520 shows sort of what that Naval command, what that Seal command, 1833 01:47:16.439 --> 01:47:20.560 how they act, because when it came when Chapman's name 1834 01:47:20.680 --> 01:47:24.800 came up, they immediately immediately turned on him. 1835 01:47:25.000 --> 01:47:25.680 Yep, you know. 1836 01:47:26.159 --> 01:47:30.119 And here was somebody who Slovinski originally for his uh 1837 01:47:30.319 --> 01:47:33.760 you know, is uh the air the Air. 1838 01:47:33.600 --> 01:47:36.399 Cross right that he would get the Navy Cross or 1839 01:47:37.319 --> 01:47:38.359 no for chat O Chapman. 1840 01:47:38.399 --> 01:47:40.520 Yeah, sorry, yeah, who you know. 1841 01:47:40.600 --> 01:47:43.199 Slovinsky had said he saved our lives when he took 1842 01:47:43.199 --> 01:47:46.319 Bunker one. He saved our lives, right, give it. I 1843 01:47:46.359 --> 01:47:48.760 hope he gets any award. Then when it comes to 1844 01:47:48.840 --> 01:47:53.439 the upgrade, the Seals are so fervently against it and 1845 01:47:53.439 --> 01:47:56.159 and undermining it and and everything else. 1846 01:47:56.279 --> 01:48:00.119 And to me, that is like who does that? 1847 01:48:00.119 --> 01:48:02.279 That's you know, that's the part that's dishonorable about it. 1848 01:48:02.319 --> 01:48:05.119 I mean, a botched operation that happens, you. 1849 01:48:05.079 --> 01:48:08.800 Know, you know, I don't even blame Slovensky for leaving 1850 01:48:08.920 --> 01:48:12.279 him per se, because nobody knows what was going on. 1851 01:48:12.399 --> 01:48:15.399 They were under heavy fire, there was snow on the ground. 1852 01:48:15.800 --> 01:48:18.920 You know, Robert's body was there, that Selenskin every acknowledge 1853 01:48:19.000 --> 01:48:21.560 it could be that he thought that was that nobody knows, 1854 01:48:22.000 --> 01:48:25.399 Like I don't even necessarily blame him for that, because 1855 01:48:25.600 --> 01:48:28.079 in the fog war, the only person who knows what 1856 01:48:28.159 --> 01:48:30.600 happened is the person's there, and even sometimes they don't 1857 01:48:30.600 --> 01:48:34.239 know what happened. But but the way the Navy handled 1858 01:48:34.239 --> 01:48:38.760 it is like, Okay, that's that's what you expect, you know, 1859 01:48:39.000 --> 01:48:40.319 or that's what that would be. 1860 01:48:40.319 --> 01:48:42.600 Take that's the tell and I you know, the reason, 1861 01:48:42.640 --> 01:48:46.199 the reason why that story ultimately is you know, the 1862 01:48:46.359 --> 01:48:49.800 central sort of spine of the book with three chapters, 1863 01:48:49.840 --> 01:48:53.760 because it's, you know, it's a tragic saga of you know, 1864 01:48:53.840 --> 01:48:57.760 the the best and the worst, and yes, the worst 1865 01:48:57.800 --> 01:49:00.720 part about it is not you know, and what happened 1866 01:49:00.800 --> 01:49:03.520 up on the mountain at all. What if the worst 1867 01:49:03.840 --> 01:49:07.800 was the way in which they went fourteen years after 1868 01:49:07.840 --> 01:49:12.319 the event, everything that they claimed happened now changed so 1869 01:49:12.399 --> 01:49:16.239 that they could protect their brand, their honor, their guy. 1870 01:49:16.880 --> 01:49:20.079 And that is the part that you know, it's dishonorable. 1871 01:49:20.119 --> 01:49:24.079 That's the part that's I think the the you know, 1872 01:49:24.119 --> 01:49:28.319 for people not in the seals who served in the military, 1873 01:49:28.319 --> 01:49:30.600 who have served with the Seals. That's the thing you 1874 01:49:30.680 --> 01:49:33.840 hear the most is like, yeah, well that's how they are, right. 1875 01:49:33.880 --> 01:49:36.840 That's and I don't like to make generalizations. I haven't 1876 01:49:37.039 --> 01:49:39.079 you know, I haven't served. I've never served with the Seal. 1877 01:49:39.359 --> 01:49:43.079 I can't speak to that. But as a reporter, that 1878 01:49:43.199 --> 01:49:45.479 story is prevalent. That's the story here over and over, 1879 01:49:45.560 --> 01:49:48.960 which is, you know, they have their brand looks like this, 1880 01:49:49.039 --> 01:49:50.800 and they make a lot of money with that brand, 1881 01:49:50.840 --> 01:49:53.279 and anything that goes against that brand or suggests that 1882 01:49:53.279 --> 01:49:57.079 they are not totally heroic and totally flawless, or that 1883 01:49:57.159 --> 01:49:59.319 the story that they told may not be as accurate 1884 01:49:59.439 --> 01:50:03.560 as they as they proceed, you know, made it sound 1885 01:50:04.399 --> 01:50:06.239 they circle the wagons. 1886 01:50:06.479 --> 01:50:08.640 Speaking of which, there's one thing I definitely wanted to 1887 01:50:08.680 --> 01:50:12.880 ask you about about somebody who's not interested in profiting 1888 01:50:12.920 --> 01:50:17.119 off the brand necessarily or at all. We've heard a 1889 01:50:17.119 --> 01:50:18.960 lot about the Bin Laden raid. There's a lot about 1890 01:50:18.960 --> 01:50:21.760 it in your book. We've heard a lot about O'Neill 1891 01:50:21.800 --> 01:50:24.640 and Bissonett, a lot out there about those guys. Tell 1892 01:50:24.720 --> 01:50:29.560 us about this one operator whose call sign was red. 1893 01:50:29.279 --> 01:50:34.039 Read yeah, well, Red should be known as the seal 1894 01:50:34.119 --> 01:50:39.760 operator who fired into bin Laden and effectively killed him 1895 01:50:42.000 --> 01:50:47.039 in Pakistan in twenty eleven. He was at the head 1896 01:50:47.039 --> 01:50:49.039 of the stack that went up. I think, in fact, 1897 01:50:49.199 --> 01:50:51.439 as it happens, he also shot bin Laden's son on 1898 01:50:51.479 --> 01:50:56.880 the second second deck, and as I understand it, and 1899 01:50:56.920 --> 01:51:00.000 I think, as I reported in the book, he fired 1900 01:51:00.199 --> 01:51:03.960 two shots, at least two shots. The first hit beIN 1901 01:51:04.039 --> 01:51:07.560 Lauden grazed him somewhere, not quite clear if it was 1902 01:51:07.600 --> 01:51:10.439 the hip or the leg, but then he got him 1903 01:51:10.439 --> 01:51:14.960 center mass, and at that point bin Laden fell back 1904 01:51:15.000 --> 01:51:17.600 into the room and onto the ground, A key detail 1905 01:51:18.239 --> 01:51:21.640 because everyone else who came into the door afterwards fired 1906 01:51:21.680 --> 01:51:24.680 into him while he was down on the ground. According 1907 01:51:24.680 --> 01:51:28.640 to my sources, and although it's no longer available, I 1908 01:51:28.680 --> 01:51:31.600 will tell you that on Twitter about a year ago, 1909 01:51:32.039 --> 01:51:36.680 a member of the unit who was there confirmed my 1910 01:51:36.840 --> 01:51:39.840 version of what was reported and with the version that's 1911 01:51:39.840 --> 01:51:42.359 in this book, and describes O'Neil I think, as being 1912 01:51:42.359 --> 01:51:46.079 the fourth guy through the doorway and the fourth man 1913 01:51:46.199 --> 01:51:52.880 to shoot bin Lauden. So red, you know, is one 1914 01:51:52.880 --> 01:51:56.159 guy who says silent professional, silent professional, and and you know, 1915 01:51:56.199 --> 01:51:59.239 I think quote quoted one of those former teammates who 1916 01:51:59.479 --> 01:52:04.199 who uh no been u Bissinette and O'Neil very well 1917 01:52:04.199 --> 01:52:06.520 who said, you know that the genius of what they 1918 01:52:06.560 --> 01:52:09.159 had done in constructing their versions of the story was 1919 01:52:09.199 --> 01:52:12.960 that there was really only one person who could contradict them, 1920 01:52:13.279 --> 01:52:16.439 and that guy's never going to talk. I think my 1921 01:52:17.000 --> 01:52:19.359 last I checked. I believe he's no longer in. I 1922 01:52:19.399 --> 01:52:24.720 think he's out, and uh, you know, it's just never 1923 01:52:24.840 --> 01:52:25.399 hear from him. 1924 01:52:25.399 --> 01:52:25.600 I guess. 1925 01:52:25.680 --> 01:52:27.159 Yeah, there's a little part of it that kind of 1926 01:52:27.199 --> 01:52:30.359 like makes me smile. I guess because there's this dude 1927 01:52:30.359 --> 01:52:33.760 out there who killed high value target number one, first 1928 01:52:33.760 --> 01:52:37.119 guy through the door, smoke's been laed in a historic shot, 1929 01:52:37.880 --> 01:52:39.800 has nothing to say about it. He's out there living 1930 01:52:39.800 --> 01:52:42.159 his best life, I guess, you know, and good for him, 1931 01:52:42.359 --> 01:52:42.560 you know. 1932 01:52:42.680 --> 01:52:47.479 I think what is interesting to me is that what 1933 01:52:48.880 --> 01:52:53.359 you can sort of surmise from from listening to all 1934 01:52:53.399 --> 01:52:58.600 of this is is that in general, the seals that 1935 01:52:58.680 --> 01:53:01.960 are out making the most money telling the most stories 1936 01:53:02.520 --> 01:53:04.640 are not necessarily the ones who were held in the 1937 01:53:04.680 --> 01:53:08.199 highest esteem inside. And we hear over and over again 1938 01:53:08.239 --> 01:53:11.319 it's you know, there was a terrible irony that it 1939 01:53:11.439 --> 01:53:14.560 is not the best of our community that is out 1940 01:53:15.119 --> 01:53:19.479 representing us. It's sort of like an inverse relation, which 1941 01:53:19.520 --> 01:53:23.079 is not to say that that you know, O'Neill's teammates 1942 01:53:23.960 --> 01:53:27.520 loved him, business teammates loved him. They've got lots of 1943 01:53:27.520 --> 01:53:29.239 problems with them, but that doesn't mean that. 1944 01:53:29.199 --> 01:53:33.920 They, by all accounts, was a great operator, phenomenal operator. 1945 01:53:34.039 --> 01:53:34.279 Right. 1946 01:53:35.000 --> 01:53:37.840 And and they're courageous. It's not like their cow like 1947 01:53:37.880 --> 01:53:40.600 they're they're they're good operators. They're curages. 1948 01:53:40.880 --> 01:53:44.840 Just maybe there's nothing that there's nothing in the reporting 1949 01:53:44.880 --> 01:53:50.000 here is about how they're bad seals or bad soldiers, 1950 01:53:50.199 --> 01:53:51.199 are not good at their job. 1951 01:53:51.199 --> 01:53:54.680 They're incredibly good at their job, right right. The question 1952 01:53:54.840 --> 01:53:57.239 is not about whether they're what they did on their 1953 01:53:57.279 --> 01:53:58.880 best day. The question is what they did on their 1954 01:53:58.920 --> 01:53:59.359 worst day. 1955 01:53:59.439 --> 01:54:01.840 It's not about whether they got two solar stars but 1956 01:54:02.119 --> 01:54:03.840 are happy with the one they. 1957 01:54:03.840 --> 01:54:11.000 Write that there's a full senday and and you know 1958 01:54:11.079 --> 01:54:16.560 the it's not a I will say obviously, as a 1959 01:54:16.760 --> 01:54:19.960 reporter who is writing about this stuff, I'm not I'm 1960 01:54:19.960 --> 01:54:23.479 not going to win any popularity contests. I've gotten over 1961 01:54:23.520 --> 01:54:28.119 the years some fantastic hate mail about on reporting on 1962 01:54:28.159 --> 01:54:30.920 this stuff, and I you know, I read it all. 1963 01:54:31.159 --> 01:54:35.399 I enjoy some of it, but I think it's really 1964 01:54:35.479 --> 01:54:37.880 really important for the you know, I don't think that 1965 01:54:37.960 --> 01:54:41.239 this book is going to change anyone's life. I think 1966 01:54:41.279 --> 01:54:47.399 that it's the book that as a citizen, as an 1967 01:54:47.439 --> 01:54:56.000 interested citizen, wants to know what happened in America's name 1968 01:54:56.720 --> 01:54:59.199 during the wars part of it, right, we know, Look, 1969 01:55:00.039 --> 01:55:02.439 there are plenty of books and stories about all the 1970 01:55:02.479 --> 01:55:05.079 great and heroic deeds. There's no shortage of them, and 1971 01:55:05.239 --> 01:55:07.840 I have nothing against them whatsoever. I do happen to 1972 01:55:07.880 --> 01:55:10.279 have a fealty towards the truth and think that that's 1973 01:55:10.319 --> 01:55:13.319 like kind of really important. It's like a you know, 1974 01:55:13.399 --> 01:55:17.840 a must have. And I think that the American public 1975 01:55:17.920 --> 01:55:22.800 deserves to understand what the consequences of a blank check 1976 01:55:22.840 --> 01:55:26.199 for twenty years of war are, for the men who served, 1977 01:55:26.680 --> 01:55:31.279 for the institutions that that refuse to hold itself accountable, 1978 01:55:31.520 --> 01:55:35.319 and ultimately for the civilian leadership that allowed it to happen, 1979 01:55:35.319 --> 01:55:37.920 who are supposed to oversee the officers. And I think 1980 01:55:37.960 --> 01:55:41.279 that that's that's what's supposed to happen in a democracy. 1981 01:55:41.319 --> 01:55:43.800 And that's not partisan, that's not a you know, this 1982 01:55:43.920 --> 01:55:46.079 isn't a left book, This isn't a right book. I mean, 1983 01:55:46.119 --> 01:55:48.119 I think it's I think it's fair to say that 1984 01:55:48.159 --> 01:55:50.680 almost every one of my sources leans to one party, 1985 01:55:51.640 --> 01:55:54.399 and it's not the party that you know, a lot 1986 01:55:54.439 --> 01:55:57.680 of people will think I vote for. My work is 1987 01:55:58.039 --> 01:56:01.520 non partisan in that it is just geared towards understanding 1988 01:56:01.880 --> 01:56:05.439 and finding out uncomfortable truths, because that's what I imagined 1989 01:56:05.720 --> 01:56:07.560 journalism was supposed to be when I started. 1990 01:56:07.880 --> 01:56:10.840 Your book does contain I mean, there are two other 1991 01:56:11.079 --> 01:56:14.119 vignettes in the book that I thought were very illuminating, 1992 01:56:14.159 --> 01:56:17.199 to say the least was I think these are the 1993 01:56:17.199 --> 01:56:21.239 most complete accounts I have read about the Captain Phillips rescue, 1994 01:56:21.560 --> 01:56:25.439 the Linda Norgrove rescue that went bad, and that the 1995 01:56:25.479 --> 01:56:31.039 heinous murder of Sergeant Logan Melgar. I don't know, I know, 1996 01:56:31.119 --> 01:56:32.920 we're kind of starting to run low on time. 1997 01:56:34.479 --> 01:56:35.880 Which one do you really want to hear about? 1998 01:56:38.520 --> 01:56:41.279 I think that, uh, the nord Grove one is very 1999 01:56:41.319 --> 01:56:45.399 well written. I think the Melgar one we should probably 2000 01:56:45.439 --> 01:56:47.079 dive into because it's pretty bad. 2001 01:56:47.840 --> 01:56:52.199 Yeah, you know, I'm you want me to start from 2002 01:56:52.239 --> 01:56:54.600 the top. I mean, I don't know how much the reader, 2003 01:56:54.680 --> 01:56:55.319 your audience. 2004 01:56:55.600 --> 01:56:58.359 I think they're all familiar with that a couple of 2005 01:56:58.640 --> 01:57:03.920 seals murdered a Green Beret in Mali, and our audience 2006 01:57:03.920 --> 01:57:06.079 has a general familiarity at least with that story. 2007 01:57:06.119 --> 01:57:12.439 Okay, So the Logan Melgar story unfortunately acts as like 2008 01:57:12.600 --> 01:57:19.800 a sort of you know, capstone on this post nine 2009 01:57:19.840 --> 01:57:26.560 to eleven, uh Forever wars and and seal culture. You know, 2010 01:57:26.640 --> 01:57:28.960 these two operators, one who had only been in country 2011 01:57:29.000 --> 01:57:34.319 for twenty four hours, basically set up to haze and 2012 01:57:34.680 --> 01:57:36.119 that that was their description in Hayes. 2013 01:57:36.279 --> 01:57:39.680 I think that the book, like professional remediation. 2014 01:57:39.359 --> 01:57:41.680 That was yes, the language that was used in court 2015 01:57:41.720 --> 01:57:45.439 to to downplay what they were doing was was was 2016 01:57:45.479 --> 01:57:47.439 comical if it weren't for the fact that someone ended 2017 01:57:47.479 --> 01:57:50.520 up dead. I think my point is is they the 2018 01:57:50.600 --> 01:57:56.960 seals and the two uh marine uh I think you 2019 01:57:57.000 --> 01:58:00.880 call them raiders raiders. Raiders did not intend to kill 2020 01:58:01.159 --> 01:58:06.000 right Melgar. What I reported both at the intercepted in 2021 01:58:06.039 --> 01:58:08.479 the book was Melgar. First of all, they didn't get 2022 01:58:08.479 --> 01:58:12.760 along Melgar their personalities, but they were sharing a house 2023 01:58:12.840 --> 01:58:15.880 or an apartment, a compound, and they didn't get along. 2024 01:58:16.319 --> 01:58:22.760 Melgar became aware that one of the Seals who later 2025 01:58:23.880 --> 01:58:26.399 kills him and the second member from Seal Team six 2026 01:58:26.760 --> 01:58:30.960 had been stealing from a operational fund for informants. It 2027 01:58:31.000 --> 01:58:34.520 was cash there. You get a lot of written receipts. 2028 01:58:34.520 --> 01:58:38.960 It's a well known means of making a small amount 2029 01:58:39.000 --> 01:58:42.159 of money undeployment. It's been going on. It's not just 2030 01:58:42.159 --> 01:58:45.479 in Seal Team six, but it particularly at a Tier 2031 01:58:45.520 --> 01:58:48.680 one because there's so much autonomy and so little oversight 2032 01:58:50.640 --> 01:58:53.720 and had in some where. I don't know if he 2033 01:58:53.760 --> 01:58:57.000 had confronted him, but they knew that he knew. And 2034 01:58:57.039 --> 01:58:59.840 as I understand it, and I think when you both 2035 01:59:00.119 --> 01:59:04.920 listened to the testimony in court during the court martial 2036 01:59:05.840 --> 01:59:08.840 and read between the lines, it's pretty clear. I think 2037 01:59:08.880 --> 01:59:11.880 one of the guys involved said it was they were 2038 01:59:11.880 --> 01:59:14.000 going to sexually assault him and film it and use 2039 01:59:14.039 --> 01:59:15.279 it essentially as blackmail. 2040 01:59:15.880 --> 01:59:18.039 They said that they were gonna that they were going 2041 01:59:18.079 --> 01:59:21.960 to they were going to have the molly guy like 2042 01:59:22.319 --> 01:59:24.079 fake sexually assault. 2043 01:59:23.800 --> 01:59:28.279 The seal said that Kevin Maxwell, who was the Marine 2044 01:59:28.359 --> 01:59:34.520 raider who ended up flipping second, said that no, the 2045 01:59:34.600 --> 01:59:39.159 plan was they were going to sexually assault him in 2046 01:59:39.760 --> 01:59:42.960 some manner. I believe it was because that's why it 2047 01:59:43.000 --> 01:59:48.680 came up with Operation uh Toss Salad. They were going 2048 01:59:48.760 --> 01:59:52.560 to use and in fact, my according to my sources, 2049 01:59:52.960 --> 01:59:56.640 the molly and guard that they picked that they asked 2050 01:59:56.640 --> 02:00:01.000 to come was chosen because for whatever reason in their group, 2051 02:00:01.039 --> 02:00:03.920 they knew that that was a particular thing that he 2052 02:00:04.119 --> 02:00:06.359 liked to do. And so they said, do you want 2053 02:00:06.399 --> 02:00:09.279 to do this on this guy? He says yes, and 2054 02:00:09.359 --> 02:00:11.600 so he's in the room. They're going to film it, 2055 02:00:12.159 --> 02:00:15.560 and they're going to show Melgar the film of it 2056 02:00:15.640 --> 02:00:18.880 afterwards and as a form of Blackmount shut up, you know, 2057 02:00:18.960 --> 02:00:24.119 professional remediation in the term that Adam Matthews, the member 2058 02:00:24.119 --> 02:00:27.199 of Seal Team six who was also involved, would later say, 2059 02:00:28.479 --> 02:00:34.680 they were incredibly drunk and Melgar fought back, which. 2060 02:00:34.479 --> 02:00:37.159 And Melgar was not drunk. He had been in his room. 2061 02:00:37.159 --> 02:00:37.760 He didn't drink. 2062 02:00:38.239 --> 02:00:40.600 We'll get we'll get drink at all. No, he did drink, 2063 02:00:40.640 --> 02:00:42.319 but he was not drunk at the time he died. 2064 02:00:42.319 --> 02:00:45.960 We'll get into that in a second. He fought back 2065 02:00:47.000 --> 02:00:49.119 during the resistance. They the plan was to choke him 2066 02:00:49.119 --> 02:00:53.359 out quickly, film this thing, this act some form of it, 2067 02:00:54.359 --> 02:00:56.560 and then you know, when he came to they would 2068 02:00:56.600 --> 02:01:00.720 show him and hold it over him. He came two 2069 02:01:00.840 --> 02:01:06.600 after the initial choke out, and so Tony Dedolph, who 2070 02:01:06.640 --> 02:01:13.079 is now currently in military prison after playing uh, I 2071 02:01:13.119 --> 02:01:18.079 can remember if he pled homicide or involuntary manslaughter. He's 2072 02:01:18.079 --> 02:01:21.359 got ten years, choked him out a second time, this 2073 02:01:21.520 --> 02:01:24.720 time pressing the way his body was and positioned. His 2074 02:01:24.840 --> 02:01:29.920 face was into the bed in Melgar's face was into 2075 02:01:30.000 --> 02:01:33.359 the bed, and he joked him out and he crushed 2076 02:01:33.359 --> 02:01:38.319 his his trachea. I mean, he crushed his throat and 2077 02:01:38.399 --> 02:01:44.479 he was dead. They then, you know, started to CPR 2078 02:01:44.600 --> 02:01:48.439 and trying to revive him that failed. I think the 2079 02:01:48.479 --> 02:01:51.039 thing that I was struck most by, and I'll start 2080 02:01:51.039 --> 02:01:56.079 with this because this ultimately is the point. Two of 2081 02:01:56.199 --> 02:02:03.279 America's most highly trained operators, who the government spends over 2082 02:02:03.319 --> 02:02:07.439 the course of a career millions of dollars to train 2083 02:02:07.800 --> 02:02:11.560 and then maintain their training, plus all of the equipment 2084 02:02:11.560 --> 02:02:16.479 and everything that goes with are standing over a now 2085 02:02:16.600 --> 02:02:21.800 deceased Green Beret, a fellow American, a service member, and 2086 02:02:21.840 --> 02:02:29.000 they have a choice. They can do the right thing 2087 02:02:29.600 --> 02:02:32.479 or they can do the wrong thing. And with his 2088 02:02:32.560 --> 02:02:36.880 body still warm, they immediately began to engage in a 2089 02:02:36.920 --> 02:02:40.720 cover up. And the point that I think this story 2090 02:02:40.760 --> 02:02:46.319 is really about is that if two of America's best 2091 02:02:47.319 --> 02:02:53.079 can make that decision after killing one of their own, 2092 02:02:53.279 --> 02:02:56.479 not on a battlefield, not with an enemy, not with 2093 02:02:56.560 --> 02:03:01.279 a legitimate target, with a roommate, to ask yourself. 2094 02:03:01.039 --> 02:03:03.079 I'll get to that point, what the hell. 2095 02:03:02.920 --> 02:03:08.159 Else has been going on? Because there is, you know, 2096 02:03:08.199 --> 02:03:13.479 there is again accidents happen, right, I'm not right. Everything 2097 02:03:13.520 --> 02:03:15.920 that I've just described, by the way, sounds an enormous 2098 02:03:15.920 --> 02:03:17.560 amount like the insignt penny. 2099 02:03:17.920 --> 02:03:21.479 You know, it's weird that hazing has has like these 2100 02:03:21.600 --> 02:03:25.079 homo erotic things. Like to me, hazing is like smoking, 2101 02:03:25.399 --> 02:03:28.840 you know, smoking, making them do push ups till you know, 2102 02:03:29.000 --> 02:03:30.199 till leave sweats blood. 2103 02:03:31.000 --> 02:03:33.640 There's a in particular with the seals hazing. 2104 02:03:33.880 --> 02:03:34.319 Uh. 2105 02:03:34.760 --> 02:03:37.199 There is some that's just like torturous. There are others 2106 02:03:37.199 --> 02:03:40.279 that is very homo rotic, you know, very homo rotic. 2107 02:03:42.439 --> 02:03:44.239 I'm not a psychologist, and I didn't I didn't delve 2108 02:03:44.279 --> 02:03:44.800 it into the book. 2109 02:03:45.680 --> 02:03:47.800 A bunch of user questions I'm going to hit you 2110 02:03:47.800 --> 02:03:51.640 with real quick here. Matthew Marcelo says, why did mc 2111 02:03:51.720 --> 02:03:55.239 raven give the UBL mission to Seal Team six, even 2112 02:03:55.239 --> 02:03:57.840 after issues on the Captain Phillips mission, seems like Delta 2113 02:03:57.880 --> 02:03:59.279 could have handled that mission. 2114 02:03:59.279 --> 02:04:03.359 Well to reasons. The first practical one was that the 2115 02:04:03.399 --> 02:04:06.439 Seals had Seal Team six had at the Afghanistan AO 2116 02:04:06.800 --> 02:04:11.119 and had been truly training and preparing for a mission there. 2117 02:04:11.239 --> 02:04:13.039 That's one part of it. There's the second part of it, 2118 02:04:13.079 --> 02:04:16.560 which is mccraven in particular was very fond of the 2119 02:04:16.560 --> 02:04:21.000 commanding officer of the Red Squadron at the time and 2120 02:04:21.279 --> 02:04:24.439 may have played that into favor. What people don't realize, 2121 02:04:24.439 --> 02:04:27.239 and I'm not sure you know, some of this has 2122 02:04:27.239 --> 02:04:31.119 been published before. He actually initially had chosen the Rangers 2123 02:04:31.159 --> 02:04:35.960 to lead to be in command of Seal Team six 2124 02:04:36.039 --> 02:04:38.520 on the ground for the mission, which led to a 2125 02:04:38.560 --> 02:04:43.239 blow up during the during the the read into Petevan 2126 02:04:43.279 --> 02:04:45.359 who Captain Pete Van Hoosier at the time, and that 2127 02:04:45.439 --> 02:04:48.399 didn't happen, So it was you know. And the other 2128 02:04:48.439 --> 02:04:51.239 thing is is, by the way, Emerald craven's a Seal 2129 02:04:51.640 --> 02:04:53.680 and you know, he may have been a four star 2130 02:04:53.720 --> 02:04:56.039 and he's he's one of the good ones, I think, 2131 02:04:56.399 --> 02:04:58.399 but that doesn't mean he is in parochial. 2132 02:04:58.520 --> 02:05:02.439 Carlos asks, could you guys discuss why and if rules 2133 02:05:02.479 --> 02:05:05.479 of engagement and standards of professional conduct on and off 2134 02:05:05.479 --> 02:05:07.880 the X are important to these types of units. There 2135 02:05:07.880 --> 02:05:10.760 seems to be some sentiment that there's that they should 2136 02:05:10.760 --> 02:05:12.520 be allowed to do anything. 2137 02:05:13.720 --> 02:05:17.000 That that Tier one guys should be allowed to operate 2138 02:05:18.159 --> 02:05:18.640 on their own. 2139 02:05:18.680 --> 02:05:20.199 I think that's what he's saying, that there's a lot 2140 02:05:20.199 --> 02:05:22.039 of people out there who like, fuck the ro O, 2141 02:05:22.279 --> 02:05:23.359 we don't need any r O. E. 2142 02:05:23.920 --> 02:05:26.319 Well, I mean, you know, and and I think that 2143 02:05:27.560 --> 02:05:31.199 ultimately the next question is and then what right the 2144 02:05:31.239 --> 02:05:35.479 next if there is there are rules of of there 2145 02:05:35.520 --> 02:05:37.439 are laws of war, and they're there for a reason. 2146 02:05:38.000 --> 02:05:40.359 The US signed up for them. We everyone who serves 2147 02:05:40.399 --> 02:05:43.239 in the uniform agrees to it. They are bound by it, 2148 02:05:43.720 --> 02:05:47.199 and whether it's popular or not. And you know, that 2149 02:05:47.239 --> 02:05:49.880 doesn't mean that there isn't lots and lots of gray room. 2150 02:05:49.920 --> 02:05:53.039 But as as one of my sources always said was, 2151 02:05:54.039 --> 02:05:56.279 you know, they give Seal Team six and Delta so 2152 02:05:56.439 --> 02:06:00.439 much latitude. Legally, it's not hard in that way, It's 2153 02:06:00.600 --> 02:06:03.760 rarely actually an issue. And that's why the old standard 2154 02:06:03.840 --> 02:06:06.760 Seal Team six was if you had one gray shoot, 2155 02:06:06.800 --> 02:06:09.800 you were gone. One incident where you shot someone who 2156 02:06:09.840 --> 02:06:14.560 wasn't armed, regardless of the answer being they're maneuvering, doesn't matter, right, 2157 02:06:14.560 --> 02:06:16.439 there's the difference between the threat and non threat. That 2158 02:06:16.640 --> 02:06:19.800 changed after nine to eleven, and again the standard dropped, 2159 02:06:20.319 --> 02:06:25.520 and I think to I think most Sealed Team six 2160 02:06:25.560 --> 02:06:28.920 operators would agree that that standard is important. 2161 02:06:29.319 --> 02:06:32.960 I'll just add on that point real quick that yeah, 2162 02:06:33.039 --> 02:06:35.239 I think the rules of engagement are important, but the 2163 02:06:35.399 --> 02:06:39.399 ROE is separate from international law. The ROE meets or 2164 02:06:39.439 --> 02:06:43.039 exceeds international law it has to, and the ROE is 2165 02:06:43.520 --> 02:06:46.640 blessed off on and signed off on by unit commanders 2166 02:06:46.720 --> 02:06:50.800 on the ground, and a lot of times they're roes 2167 02:06:51.039 --> 02:06:54.399 and their interpretations of the laws and the interpretations of 2168 02:06:54.479 --> 02:06:56.680 how they get to the ROE is fucked up. A 2169 02:06:56.720 --> 02:06:59.000 lot of times they don't know the law themselves. They 2170 02:06:59.000 --> 02:07:01.399 don't even have the background to begin to understand the law. 2171 02:07:01.840 --> 02:07:06.319 And that's when you see asinine restrictions put on soldiers. 2172 02:07:05.960 --> 02:07:08.159 That don't make sense, Like you have to fill out 2173 02:07:08.159 --> 02:07:09.920 a report every time you fire a weapon. 2174 02:07:10.000 --> 02:07:12.880 Well, that's done to cover the ass afterwards. But I 2175 02:07:12.920 --> 02:07:15.520 mean when you find like in Afghanistan, where we had 2176 02:07:15.520 --> 02:07:19.359 troops under fire in contact with the enemy, and we 2177 02:07:19.399 --> 02:07:22.199 could not call in aircraft to drop bombs on them. 2178 02:07:22.479 --> 02:07:25.239 That's because the commanders on the ground don't fucking understand 2179 02:07:25.279 --> 02:07:27.319 their own ro right and roes. 2180 02:07:27.520 --> 02:07:30.520 I mean they I think they change too, like if 2181 02:07:30.560 --> 02:07:34.279 from deployment to deployment. Yeah, roe's changed, but but there's 2182 02:07:34.319 --> 02:07:38.479 a massive difference between having an ROE that is, like, 2183 02:07:39.560 --> 02:07:43.520 you can only shoot somebody who is engaging you first, 2184 02:07:43.560 --> 02:07:47.079 you can only shoot somebody's who's holding weapon first. I'm 2185 02:07:47.119 --> 02:07:49.840 just gonna shoot everybody on target, regardless of what they're doing. 2186 02:07:49.680 --> 02:07:50.119 The whole thing. 2187 02:07:50.119 --> 02:07:52.319 And I'm not saying that's what the Seals are doing. 2188 02:07:52.319 --> 02:07:53.960 I'm just using that as an example. 2189 02:07:55.199 --> 02:07:58.680 Jackson says, do you foresee pirate culture dying off anytime 2190 02:07:58.760 --> 02:08:02.880 soon in Seals? I assume it seems like social media, games, movies, 2191 02:08:02.880 --> 02:08:06.680 and books glorify war crimes and hatchets, which we have 2192 02:08:06.800 --> 02:08:10.359 seen these hatchets appear in various forms of media over 2193 02:08:10.399 --> 02:08:11.560 the last ten years. 2194 02:08:12.439 --> 02:08:15.079 No, I think it's a winning brand. It's a it's 2195 02:08:15.079 --> 02:08:20.319 a money making machine. I think that there's there's still 2196 02:08:20.680 --> 02:08:24.359 a conflict inside the Seals about this, a cultural conflict. 2197 02:08:25.039 --> 02:08:29.720 I think the rogue side is very much winning and 2198 02:08:30.319 --> 02:08:37.079 probably with smaller numbers as a very loud minority within 2199 02:08:37.159 --> 02:08:39.520 the teams. But I don't think that there's I don't 2200 02:08:39.520 --> 02:08:40.359 think it's going anywhere. 2201 02:08:40.439 --> 02:08:41.640 I mean there's something there. 2202 02:08:42.119 --> 02:08:46.239 Pirate culture is attractive, and I mean there there are 2203 02:08:46.359 --> 02:08:49.520 things about it, you know, the whole kind of marine corps, you. 2204 02:08:49.479 --> 02:08:52.520 Know, improvised, adapt and overcome it. 2205 02:08:52.520 --> 02:08:58.079 It's but like, but what specifically is pirate culture right 2206 02:08:58.239 --> 02:09:01.479 is Like I had someone contact me once getting upset 2207 02:09:01.840 --> 02:09:05.920 with something I said, and he was like, because he's like, listen, man, 2208 02:09:05.960 --> 02:09:08.359 the thing with the hatchet's like after my first firefight, 2209 02:09:08.680 --> 02:09:11.279 my teammates gave me a tomahawk and I was like, dude, 2210 02:09:11.319 --> 02:09:12.399 that's not what I'm talking about. 2211 02:09:12.399 --> 02:09:15.039 I don't have any problem with that whatsoever. Like goes 2212 02:09:15.119 --> 02:09:17.399 up on your wall, it's a memento. That's cool, Like 2213 02:09:17.920 --> 02:09:21.880 why not? It's all the other stuff beyond that. I'll 2214 02:09:21.880 --> 02:09:22.600 tell you right now. 2215 02:09:22.760 --> 02:09:25.640 I carried a tomahawk for like two ops, and when 2216 02:09:25.640 --> 02:09:28.800 I realized it was completely because I wanted I want it. 2217 02:09:28.920 --> 02:09:31.760 I wanted a hatchet kill. What can I say? 2218 02:09:31.920 --> 02:09:34.960 I'm not gonna like hit somebody when they're dead, but 2219 02:09:34.960 --> 02:09:35.560 but then when. 2220 02:09:35.399 --> 02:09:37.800 I realized how absolutely unfeasible it is. 2221 02:09:38.279 --> 02:09:39.520 I'm lugging this thing around. 2222 02:09:39.560 --> 02:09:42.439 You've got your primary, you've got your secondary. How on 2223 02:09:42.479 --> 02:09:45.399 the hell am I gonna, you know, pull out a hatchet. 2224 02:09:45.319 --> 02:09:46.800 You know, without somebody shooting me first. 2225 02:09:46.800 --> 02:09:49.159 So you know, it never went on another op. 2226 02:09:49.239 --> 02:09:52.880 But but I mean there's there's I don't know, you 2227 02:09:52.920 --> 02:09:57.319 know where that came from. Was that old Vietnam alert painting, 2228 02:09:57.800 --> 02:10:00.920 you know, And there there's like a tradition or a 2229 02:10:01.000 --> 02:10:02.880 heritage behind it, and it is a tool. 2230 02:10:04.319 --> 02:10:10.359 But I mean, so's a musket. Yeah, Elliott says, what 2231 02:10:10.479 --> 02:10:12.680 is the current status of dev grew in this regard? 2232 02:10:12.800 --> 02:10:15.199 What does Matthew see as the future of dev grew 2233 02:10:15.600 --> 02:10:18.000 after the kind of op tempo that they've seen during 2234 02:10:18.039 --> 02:10:19.439 the Global War on Terror. 2235 02:10:19.560 --> 02:10:23.199 That's a really good question. Two years ago, I think 2236 02:10:23.199 --> 02:10:25.800 at the end of the Trump administration, I asked someone 2237 02:10:25.840 --> 02:10:30.680 at the Pentagon what the differences between Delta and Sale 2238 02:10:30.720 --> 02:10:33.079 Team six were on the issue of sort of pivoting 2239 02:10:33.119 --> 02:10:36.880 away from the Global War on Terror and counter terrorism, 2240 02:10:37.319 --> 02:10:41.600 And at that time, the senior official said that Delta 2241 02:10:41.920 --> 02:10:45.880 had done a much better job of shifting away from 2242 02:10:46.119 --> 02:10:50.239 counter terrorism and towards more some of the more traditional 2243 02:10:53.520 --> 02:10:56.000 the sort of genre or operations that they did which 2244 02:10:56.039 --> 02:10:59.119 were not necessarily kinetic, a lot more intelligence gathering and 2245 02:10:59.680 --> 02:11:04.960 collect and things that fit under the realm of unconventional warfare, 2246 02:11:05.920 --> 02:11:07.880 and that Seal Team six had been slow. I don't 2247 02:11:07.920 --> 02:11:12.000 know where that's at today. I think, you know, there 2248 02:11:12.039 --> 02:11:14.600 are fewer places for Seal Team six right now to operate, 2249 02:11:14.640 --> 02:11:19.319 because we're not in Afghanistan, for instance, whereas Delta still 2250 02:11:19.359 --> 02:11:23.880 obviously is Rock Syria, and although there's some seals there, 2251 02:11:23.960 --> 02:11:28.239 it's less there area of operations. So I think that's 2252 02:11:28.279 --> 02:11:30.159 a challenge for Seal Team six is to figure out 2253 02:11:30.199 --> 02:11:32.479 how to go back to, for instance, one of I 2254 02:11:32.600 --> 02:11:34.239 don't think they were very good at, which was being 2255 02:11:34.319 --> 02:11:39.560 part of the counterproliferation efforts against Iran in North Korea. 2256 02:11:40.520 --> 02:11:43.439 Last question here, actually we have some you asked this, 2257 02:11:43.560 --> 02:11:45.720 but we have some that we missed. Yeah, they went 2258 02:11:45.800 --> 02:11:48.079 up and chat, So I've got to shoe Paul asks. 2259 02:11:48.279 --> 02:11:50.720 He says, in your book, you mentioned a child metavact 2260 02:11:50.800 --> 02:11:53.920 to Bagram after a civ cast incident, who was then 2261 02:11:53.960 --> 02:11:56.079 cared for by Jay Sock and Seal Team six. Do 2262 02:11:56.079 --> 02:11:57.039 you know what happened to him. 2263 02:11:57.159 --> 02:12:00.880 He lived, The kid lived. I did know what happened 2264 02:12:00.920 --> 02:12:02.760 to him. It's actually it's a good story, not a 2265 02:12:02.800 --> 02:12:06.680 bad one. I just can't remember whether the child was 2266 02:12:06.720 --> 02:12:11.680 brought out of Afghanistan or eventually transferred. I think he 2267 02:12:11.720 --> 02:12:14.479 actually lived. He was nursed by one of the officers 2268 02:12:15.720 --> 02:12:20.520 in Bogram for the entire deployment, and then it had 2269 02:12:20.520 --> 02:12:22.279 a happy ending. It was not a bad ending. I 2270 02:12:22.319 --> 02:12:23.079 just can't remember. 2271 02:12:23.479 --> 02:12:25.479 And you know, and that's interesting too, because that that 2272 02:12:25.640 --> 02:12:30.760 happened right after Roberts Trodry and and they go on 2273 02:12:30.800 --> 02:12:34.079 this they're gonna do a v I vehicle vehicle interdiction 2274 02:12:34.760 --> 02:12:38.880 and the Air Force bombs these vehicles instead, and the 2275 02:12:38.920 --> 02:12:41.560 seals are upset about that, not because they wanted to 2276 02:12:41.560 --> 02:12:44.119 get their kill on, but because like nobody knew who 2277 02:12:44.199 --> 02:12:46.279 was in these vehicles. And they go down there and 2278 02:12:46.319 --> 02:12:51.119 they find these civilians and you know, there may have been, 2279 02:12:51.319 --> 02:12:53.840 you know, a seal. 2280 02:12:53.600 --> 02:12:56.600 Who you know, did something and you know that it. 2281 02:12:56.479 --> 02:12:59.079 Was questionable, but for the most part, most of these 2282 02:12:59.079 --> 02:13:01.319 seals were like scarned about these civilians. 2283 02:13:01.680 --> 02:13:04.800 And they metivact, the boy who was the child who 2284 02:13:04.840 --> 02:13:05.319 was still on. 2285 02:13:05.439 --> 02:13:08.760 That particular you know that particular incident, and I know 2286 02:13:09.039 --> 02:13:13.119 I've interviewed several people who are on that operation was 2287 02:13:13.439 --> 02:13:16.960 very traumatic for having discovered the scene of coming upon 2288 02:13:17.319 --> 02:13:21.159 in particular women and children who had been hit by 2289 02:13:21.159 --> 02:13:24.520 the shrapnel from one of the bombs that had been 2290 02:13:25.119 --> 02:13:29.840 missiles that had been fired by the Air Force. And 2291 02:13:29.880 --> 02:13:33.159 that was something that was also part of the the 2292 02:13:34.359 --> 02:13:37.920 you call it trauma, but the secondary tertiary effects of 2293 02:13:38.359 --> 02:13:42.840 that first deployment in Afghanistan. There was also, as it happened, 2294 02:13:43.079 --> 02:13:47.159 retribution from Robert's Ridge that came down in terms of 2295 02:13:47.439 --> 02:13:50.680 the officer who was there, one of the officers, and 2296 02:13:50.760 --> 02:13:55.039 in that case it was it's another scenario where you 2297 02:13:55.119 --> 02:13:59.239 had a bunch of seasoned operators being led by a 2298 02:13:59.359 --> 02:14:01.840 naval a cat the officer who had not gone through 2299 02:14:01.840 --> 02:14:05.720 a green team and had been put in charge as 2300 02:14:05.760 --> 02:14:09.920 an officer who had no respect from his men, and 2301 02:14:09.960 --> 02:14:12.720 it was because he wasn't qualified, right, he had been 2302 02:14:12.760 --> 02:14:15.399 a boats guy, and that was that dynamic is like 2303 02:14:15.439 --> 02:14:18.880 playing out through through years and years at Seal Team six. 2304 02:14:20.000 --> 02:14:22.039 Yeah, get through the rest of the questions. 2305 02:14:22.560 --> 02:14:26.920 So, first off, David A, thank you very much for 2306 02:14:26.960 --> 02:14:30.399 the two JAVERI. General Stone Nations, Jackson, what was it? 2307 02:14:31.520 --> 02:14:33.560 I don't know if you you know, what is the 2308 02:14:33.640 --> 02:14:36.880 darkest story event that you or Jack. 2309 02:14:36.800 --> 02:14:39.840 Noah that didn't make it into the book. 2310 02:14:40.039 --> 02:14:41.439 And why is there anything? 2311 02:14:42.079 --> 02:14:45.479 Because yes, there's a murder of a child in Afghanistan 2312 02:14:45.560 --> 02:14:53.039 early in the war that while I confirmed that it 2313 02:14:53.159 --> 02:14:57.560 happened and I know who is responsible, I did not 2314 02:14:57.840 --> 02:15:01.600 have enough details to you know, everything in this book 2315 02:15:02.840 --> 02:15:06.479 is it's been fact checked very thoroughly, it's been legally vetted, 2316 02:15:07.159 --> 02:15:11.159 and it has multiple sourcing. This one, although I had 2317 02:15:11.279 --> 02:15:14.159 multiple sources, I didn't have enough of the details, the 2318 02:15:14.279 --> 02:15:19.079 narrative details to justify putting it in. But it was 2319 02:15:19.119 --> 02:15:24.960 an example early in my reporting of describing a very 2320 02:15:25.039 --> 02:15:28.800 talented seal whose Seal Team six has has described me 2321 02:15:29.000 --> 02:15:32.560 had broken because he had done this. They covered it 2322 02:15:32.640 --> 02:15:35.880 up and they moved on, and it was you know, 2323 02:15:38.439 --> 02:15:40.279 enough said, I mean, you know, the murder of a 2324 02:15:40.359 --> 02:15:43.520 child is a difficult one to stomach. So that didn't 2325 02:15:43.520 --> 02:15:46.840 make it in, and you know, I just just assume 2326 02:15:46.880 --> 02:15:48.000 probably it'll never be public. 2327 02:15:48.159 --> 02:15:50.760 Yeah, and just real quick, because we talked about fact check, 2328 02:15:50.840 --> 02:15:53.600 there was one tiny little detail in your book, right. 2329 02:15:53.479 --> 02:15:56.479 There was I made an error about Delta and what 2330 02:15:56.520 --> 02:16:00.199 the requirements are. And actually I had someone who for 2331 02:16:00.399 --> 02:16:02.680 you to point it out. Someone else had sent me 2332 02:16:02.680 --> 02:16:05.399 an email I think, I don't remember how it was 2333 02:16:05.399 --> 02:16:07.439 written in the book, but essentially I suggested that you 2334 02:16:07.520 --> 02:16:11.520 don't have to be in the military to join Delta, 2335 02:16:11.520 --> 02:16:13.680 which obviously isn't true. What I really meant was, you 2336 02:16:13.720 --> 02:16:16.840 don't have to be in the army to be drafted 2337 02:16:16.840 --> 02:16:19.000 into Delta, to be selected in and pass the course 2338 02:16:19.039 --> 02:16:24.039 and air is regretful and all my own and suture 2339 02:16:24.159 --> 02:16:25.079 editions will have a fix. 2340 02:16:25.319 --> 02:16:28.159 Yeah, So anybody who's like going to nitpick that, just 2341 02:16:28.239 --> 02:16:29.880 know that, Like he was just trying to say, you 2342 02:16:29.920 --> 02:16:32.680 didn't have to be in the army, and it didn't 2343 02:16:32.760 --> 02:16:36.479 quite come out that way. So anyway, Jackson, does Delta 2344 02:16:36.520 --> 02:16:38.479 really do a better job policing their own in comparison 2345 02:16:38.520 --> 02:16:41.719 Seal Team of Six given their recent history historically? 2346 02:16:41.760 --> 02:16:44.319 Yes, that's the short answer. Absolutely. I mean, I you know, 2347 02:16:45.440 --> 02:16:47.559 I'm sure there are plenty of things. Maybe my next 2348 02:16:47.559 --> 02:16:49.399 book will be about them. 2349 02:16:49.479 --> 02:16:52.239 How much did pirate culture bleed over into the non 2350 02:16:52.280 --> 02:16:54.479 shooter parts of Seal Team Six, such as Black. 2351 02:16:54.239 --> 02:17:00.920 Squadron, uh, Black Squadron you know, So I intentionally did 2352 02:17:00.959 --> 02:17:03.639 not write about Black Squadron. They had some problems, and 2353 02:17:03.639 --> 02:17:07.680 there are some issues, but there were a lot of 2354 02:17:08.000 --> 02:17:14.159 sensitive programs that I know about that I didn't think reporting. 2355 02:17:14.479 --> 02:17:16.920 I didn't think it was just I couldn't justify reporting 2356 02:17:16.959 --> 02:17:20.280 about them in the sense that the problems there were 2357 02:17:20.360 --> 02:17:22.920 not anywhere near what was going on in the Assault squadrons. 2358 02:17:24.399 --> 02:17:26.760 They have some issues, but those issues I had to 2359 02:17:26.760 --> 02:17:30.440 balance it against exposing some things that were, you know, 2360 02:17:30.520 --> 02:17:32.959 pretty sensitive, and I tried to err on the side 2361 02:17:32.959 --> 02:17:36.440 of you know, this book frankly, it has a lot 2362 02:17:36.440 --> 02:17:38.399 of It has a lot of secrets and a lot 2363 02:17:38.440 --> 02:17:40.639 of dirt, but there's not that much that's actually classified. 2364 02:17:40.680 --> 02:17:42.520 It's not a tell all it's not meant to be 2365 02:17:42.639 --> 02:17:45.440 a tell all right, So, but you know, they have 2366 02:17:45.520 --> 02:17:49.079 some problems, not as much as the Assault squadrons. 2367 02:17:50.000 --> 02:17:52.920 And thank you Connor for that mark, Thank you very much. 2368 02:17:53.040 --> 02:17:55.639 How many current and former seals did you interview for 2369 02:17:55.680 --> 02:17:56.040 the book? 2370 02:17:57.319 --> 02:18:05.079 Well, I think it's in the book between thirty and 2371 02:18:05.159 --> 02:18:09.280 forty and then you start to but that's not including 2372 02:18:11.399 --> 02:18:14.120 that's not including all of the people who worked with 2373 02:18:14.399 --> 02:18:18.120 Seal Team six and people from Jaysak and other services 2374 02:18:18.719 --> 02:18:21.280 who were on some of the missions or who were there. 2375 02:18:21.319 --> 02:18:23.399 So I think in all, I have to look at 2376 02:18:23.440 --> 02:18:25.239 the beginning of the book, and I can't remember I've 2377 02:18:25.239 --> 02:18:29.680 been interviewing people for ten years off and on, so seals. 2378 02:18:29.680 --> 02:18:33.440 It's probably close to about forty but that that could 2379 02:18:33.440 --> 02:18:35.120 be wrong, could be fifty I have, you know, I 2380 02:18:35.200 --> 02:18:38.040 actually have a list somewhere. Yeah, but it's not on 2381 02:18:38.040 --> 02:18:38.680 the top of my head. 2382 02:18:39.120 --> 02:18:40.840 And I think that's one of the challenging things with 2383 02:18:40.879 --> 02:18:44.000 your book, right is because a lot of your sources 2384 02:18:44.079 --> 02:18:48.280 are you know, unnamed seal form or former seal and. 2385 02:18:49.799 --> 02:18:50.360 You know, so. 2386 02:18:51.799 --> 02:18:54.159 I mean you've done these people in service of you know, 2387 02:18:55.120 --> 02:18:59.239 listening to them, corroborating their stuff. But also I'm sure 2388 02:18:59.239 --> 02:19:01.840 it's very hard hard for you as a as a 2389 02:19:01.879 --> 02:19:05.399 reporter not to list your sources. 2390 02:19:06.760 --> 02:19:09.600 There is nothing I want more than to have people 2391 02:19:09.639 --> 02:19:14.680 on the record. This area of reporting. It's just not feasible, 2392 02:19:14.760 --> 02:19:18.280 not in our current you know, I don't know that 2393 02:19:18.319 --> 02:19:21.200 it'll ever be feasible, and and I think it's it's unfortunate. 2394 02:19:21.600 --> 02:19:24.559 I think there is honor and anonymity in this kind 2395 02:19:24.600 --> 02:19:28.680 of reporting. And I think that if I could write 2396 02:19:28.680 --> 02:19:31.760 a book or have added to the book the details 2397 02:19:31.879 --> 02:19:37.040 even without names, of where, how my sources came to 2398 02:19:37.120 --> 02:19:40.319 some of this information, what their experiences were at Seal 2399 02:19:40.360 --> 02:19:43.760 Team six, how essentially this book came to be I 2400 02:19:43.760 --> 02:19:46.840 can I can assure you that it would be incredibly 2401 02:19:46.920 --> 02:19:49.719 compelling and far more in that sense, not that I 2402 02:19:49.719 --> 02:19:51.959 think there's anything in my book that's not believable. It's 2403 02:19:52.040 --> 02:19:55.040 I undersell it, but it would be even more compelling 2404 02:19:55.799 --> 02:20:00.120 than what I have, because their stories are you know, 2405 02:20:00.319 --> 02:20:04.559 I mean, if they didn't just have or you know, 2406 02:20:05.000 --> 02:20:09.719 courage to join, to make it, to do well in 2407 02:20:09.719 --> 02:20:12.319 the battlefields and lead men, they had moral courage when 2408 02:20:12.319 --> 02:20:15.559 it mattered, and that I think is you know, unfortunately 2409 02:20:15.879 --> 02:20:18.920 you know too rare, so you know, and obviously in 2410 02:20:18.959 --> 02:20:20.360 that sense I'm biased. 2411 02:20:21.360 --> 02:20:24.239 Jack, And thank you elaborate on Blue Team being more professional. 2412 02:20:26.079 --> 02:20:28.200 I don't know if I said more professional. I think 2413 02:20:29.079 --> 02:20:31.680 there was an element to Blue Team as it was 2414 02:20:31.719 --> 02:20:36.239 described to me historically and culturally, that had some senior 2415 02:20:36.319 --> 02:20:43.680 enlisted guys who were interested in solving the problem, whatever 2416 02:20:43.719 --> 02:20:48.200 the mission was. In the operation where pulling a trigger 2417 02:20:48.280 --> 02:20:51.280 was the option of last resort, they wouldn't hesitate, but 2418 02:20:51.399 --> 02:20:54.520 there was an art they I mean, someone described to 2419 02:20:54.559 --> 02:20:58.440 me a particular incident that happened in Afghanistan where they 2420 02:20:58.520 --> 02:21:00.840 kind of were trying to imagine themselves ninjas, how to 2421 02:21:00.879 --> 02:21:03.799 get in and out of a place silently and make 2422 02:21:03.840 --> 02:21:07.040 someone disappear, not kill them, but make someone disappear, because 2423 02:21:07.079 --> 02:21:09.559 the effect of having grabbed them in the middle of 2424 02:21:09.600 --> 02:21:11.120 the night while no one else who was in the 2425 02:21:11.159 --> 02:21:15.440 compound sleeping was the wiser was more terrifying to wake 2426 02:21:15.520 --> 02:21:18.520 up to to have someone who disappeared than to find 2427 02:21:18.639 --> 02:21:22.040 you know, their their comrade or their family member killed. 2428 02:21:22.520 --> 02:21:24.280 And so that's sort of what I. 2429 02:21:24.319 --> 02:21:26.559 Meant, you know, one of the things that and I 2430 02:21:26.600 --> 02:21:29.079 don't mean to we have a couple more questions, but 2431 02:21:29.200 --> 02:21:30.680 one of the things that was really interesting to me 2432 02:21:30.920 --> 02:21:34.399 is how some of the seals felt that when the 2433 02:21:34.440 --> 02:21:39.520 policy became doing call outs that that was like sort 2434 02:21:39.520 --> 02:21:41.360 of a chicken shit way of doing it, because you know, 2435 02:21:41.719 --> 02:21:43.479 it was, you know, to protect the women's children. 2436 02:21:43.559 --> 02:21:45.159 Why would we give up that advantage? 2437 02:21:45.239 --> 02:21:49.840 And that's not why callouts started though, because you know, 2438 02:21:50.600 --> 02:21:53.719 so many people were taking casualties from doing this hostage 2439 02:21:53.760 --> 02:21:57.200 rescue technique on a target where there were no hostages 2440 02:21:57.559 --> 02:22:00.600 that it was safer for the troops to do call out. 2441 02:22:01.040 --> 02:22:03.879 You know, it became because then you do a call out, 2442 02:22:03.920 --> 02:22:06.079 if they start shooting, you can pull off and just 2443 02:22:06.120 --> 02:22:09.120 bomb the target. You don't have to run into a building. 2444 02:22:09.360 --> 02:22:11.680 But it was interesting that it was the series interpreted, 2445 02:22:11.639 --> 02:22:13.360 it was the Seals interpretation. 2446 02:22:13.440 --> 02:22:15.360 It was it was a sea squadron that got really 2447 02:22:15.440 --> 02:22:17.280 chewed up I think in like two thousand and four, 2448 02:22:17.479 --> 02:22:18.719 and they started using that. 2449 02:22:18.760 --> 02:22:21.040 And the Rangers started doing it, and yeah, you know, 2450 02:22:21.200 --> 02:22:23.559 and it just became the standard because it was it 2451 02:22:23.639 --> 02:22:28.079 was dumb to run into a building. They would barricade 2452 02:22:28.079 --> 02:22:32.399 against CQB, you know, where they understood the tactic and 2453 02:22:32.760 --> 02:22:33.399 we're ready for it. 2454 02:22:33.520 --> 02:22:37.200 Yeah. Uh, Paul, thank you. 2455 02:22:37.200 --> 02:22:39.840 You spent quite a bit of a lot of the 2456 02:22:39.879 --> 02:22:41.600 time on the book with Dwayne Dieter and we didn't 2457 02:22:41.600 --> 02:22:43.200 get to that at all, but it was great content. 2458 02:22:43.559 --> 02:22:44.920 What drew you to his story? 2459 02:22:44.959 --> 02:22:47.600 And do you think dropping CQD had an impact on 2460 02:22:47.639 --> 02:22:49.159 dev Group's problem? 2461 02:22:49.879 --> 02:22:54.680 H Yes, I think it's very clear. I make the 2462 02:22:54.680 --> 02:22:59.799 the book makes the inference that by dropping Deeter and 2463 02:23:00.799 --> 02:23:07.000 when they did their ethical lapses and problems. Rose let 2464 02:23:07.079 --> 02:23:10.000 me make a caveat here that there is I've always 2465 02:23:10.040 --> 02:23:12.840 known that there is another civil war inside the teams 2466 02:23:12.879 --> 02:23:18.479 between Deeterer's CQD and non deeterer Offen MMA. And I 2467 02:23:18.559 --> 02:23:23.360 am not a expert in tactics by any reason, by 2468 02:23:23.360 --> 02:23:28.000 any measure, and I don't try to be. What became 2469 02:23:28.040 --> 02:23:33.159 clear early on for me was Deeter had a list. 2470 02:23:33.559 --> 02:23:39.079 He keeps meticulous records of every training he's ever done. 2471 02:23:39.440 --> 02:23:42.200 Deeterer had a list, and he was so involved with 2472 02:23:42.280 --> 02:23:44.799 these guys at Seal Team six early on that he 2473 02:23:44.879 --> 02:23:48.799 had a list of problem Seals in his training, Guys 2474 02:23:48.840 --> 02:23:51.360 who when they did the hood and the Hood came off. 2475 02:23:51.399 --> 02:23:54.280 Even though they were supposedly the best wrestlers, they were 2476 02:23:54.280 --> 02:23:58.680 flailing and they would fail. And almost actually frequently the 2477 02:23:58.719 --> 02:24:00.760 most aggressive are the ones that the worst in the 2478 02:24:00.799 --> 02:24:06.920 initial hood drill. What he had was a list of 2479 02:24:07.000 --> 02:24:10.920 all the Seals who had issues in his training, ethical problems, 2480 02:24:11.040 --> 02:24:15.319 signs that there was something off ethically, morally okay, problems 2481 02:24:15.319 --> 02:24:19.280 with the dial up and dial down. Right, it happened, 2482 02:24:19.440 --> 02:24:23.159 and this is true story was almost an identical list 2483 02:24:23.200 --> 02:24:26.680 of everyone after three years of reporting that my sources 2484 02:24:26.680 --> 02:24:30.879 had identified were some of the worst in committing war 2485 02:24:30.920 --> 02:24:39.600 crimes or abetting them. And you know, I'm not a psychologist, 2486 02:24:39.840 --> 02:24:42.319 and I'm not even an expert at the time, but 2487 02:24:42.360 --> 02:24:44.280 I just don't think that's coincidence. I think it was 2488 02:24:44.399 --> 02:24:47.120 very clear that there was some connection to be drawn 2489 02:24:47.520 --> 02:24:52.360 between a list of problems in this system and a 2490 02:24:52.440 --> 02:24:56.760 list of problems on the battlefield and culturally. And then 2491 02:24:56.920 --> 02:24:59.440 as I reported more and more, what became clear was 2492 02:24:59.760 --> 02:25:02.520 no disputes how good the hood is right sense, I mean, 2493 02:25:02.520 --> 02:25:05.120 that's not a you know, I mean Matt Bisonette takes 2494 02:25:05.159 --> 02:25:07.840 an entire chapter of his book where he refuses to 2495 02:25:07.959 --> 02:25:10.239 name what it is or who did it, but talks 2496 02:25:10.280 --> 02:25:13.280 about the power of the hood right. So Deeter was 2497 02:25:13.280 --> 02:25:18.280 doing something right. And the fact that he was pushed out, now, 2498 02:25:18.319 --> 02:25:20.200 you know, I know what some of the criticism is 2499 02:25:20.479 --> 02:25:25.799 about why they targeted getting rid of CQD and Deeter, 2500 02:25:25.959 --> 02:25:27.440 which was that they felt that he was doing too 2501 02:25:27.520 --> 02:25:31.200 much and trying to adapt his stuff into everything, and 2502 02:25:31.239 --> 02:25:33.600 there was a lot of pushback against that. But the 2503 02:25:33.639 --> 02:25:37.559 reporting shows that there was an interest to commercialize and 2504 02:25:37.639 --> 02:25:41.879 brand training outside of dam Neck and the Seal and 2505 02:25:42.000 --> 02:25:45.399 the Seal Command to make it profitable and Deeterer wouldn't 2506 02:25:45.399 --> 02:25:48.200 go along with right and that was a problem, and 2507 02:25:48.239 --> 02:25:50.559 so they removed him. And I think that there is 2508 02:25:51.000 --> 02:25:53.200 had they kept it, yeah, the would have been fewer problems. 2509 02:25:53.520 --> 02:25:55.600 I mean, if I'm more in full ked, I'd rather 2510 02:25:55.639 --> 02:25:59.239 do a muscle strike than a double a takedown. 2511 02:25:59.319 --> 02:26:04.959 YEA, all right, let's see here, I think, let's see. 2512 02:26:05.239 --> 02:26:07.879 Let me just make sure, Matthew, I want to ask you, 2513 02:26:07.920 --> 02:26:10.840 what's been the reception to this book so far? I mean, 2514 02:26:10.879 --> 02:26:12.360 this is the book that a lot of people, I 2515 02:26:12.360 --> 02:26:14.680 think in this country don't really want to hear about 2516 02:26:14.799 --> 02:26:18.239 or read about. The Navy certainly doesn't want you reading it. 2517 02:26:18.680 --> 02:26:20.680 Yeah, well, it's been mixed. I mean, you know, first 2518 02:26:20.719 --> 02:26:23.360 of all, it came out a few days before Putin 2519 02:26:23.399 --> 02:26:28.559 decided to invade Ukraine, so unfortunately there's been a more 2520 02:26:28.600 --> 02:26:34.159 significant and obviously more urgent story. And the reception has 2521 02:26:34.200 --> 02:26:37.840 been good in the sense that I have gotten calls 2522 02:26:37.879 --> 02:26:41.040 from people on Twitter, dms for people who have read it, 2523 02:26:41.159 --> 02:26:43.120 who are in the seals, who are in the Navy, 2524 02:26:43.360 --> 02:26:46.959 who thanked me for writing it. And frankly, that's the 2525 02:26:47.000 --> 02:26:50.520 most satisfying I got. Someone who was obviously I'm not 2526 02:26:50.520 --> 02:26:52.799 going to name them, but someone who had been a 2527 02:26:53.440 --> 02:26:57.600 jag for NSW who for a significant amount of time, 2528 02:26:57.639 --> 02:26:59.879 who reached out to thank me for it and say 2529 02:26:59.920 --> 02:27:02.760 that that everything in there had rung true from his 2530 02:27:02.840 --> 02:27:07.239 experience dealing with some of the officers. And you know, 2531 02:27:07.680 --> 02:27:09.479 I think that this is a book that will take 2532 02:27:09.520 --> 02:27:13.399 a little bit of time, uh to dies. Yeah, it's 2533 02:27:13.479 --> 02:27:14.959 you know, one of the things that I occurred to 2534 02:27:14.959 --> 02:27:17.079 me when I first started writing it is that there 2535 02:27:17.280 --> 02:27:20.319 is no there had been no prior to Code over 2536 02:27:20.360 --> 02:27:24.200 Country history of Seal Team six or even the Seals 2537 02:27:24.200 --> 02:27:26.959 really that had not been written by either someone from 2538 02:27:27.040 --> 02:27:30.559 the seal community or someone who was a fan of 2539 02:27:30.600 --> 02:27:35.159 the seal community. It was mostly hagiography. And so in 2540 02:27:35.200 --> 02:27:38.799 that sense, Code over Country happens to be in many 2541 02:27:38.840 --> 02:27:42.399 ways the most objective and certainly the most journalistic history 2542 02:27:42.440 --> 02:27:45.079 of Seal Team six. And I think you know that 2543 02:27:45.360 --> 02:27:48.159 there's there's a long life for that. 2544 02:27:48.920 --> 02:27:52.559 Yeah, let's let's say these people during side I just 2545 02:27:52.639 --> 02:27:55.000 want to get to there. We didn't ask Elliott said, we, uh, 2546 02:27:55.120 --> 02:27:56.600 what is the current status of dev group? 2547 02:27:56.680 --> 02:27:56.920 We did? 2548 02:27:57.000 --> 02:28:01.000 Okay, sorry about that, Carlos, thank you. 2549 02:28:01.680 --> 02:28:02.120 Follow up. 2550 02:28:02.159 --> 02:28:03.879 That's why I asked he was asked he's a guy 2551 02:28:03.879 --> 02:28:06.719 who asked about the Roe. Guys in chats seem to 2552 02:28:06.719 --> 02:28:09.520 think it's okay to ignore Roe standards professional. 2553 02:28:09.719 --> 02:28:09.920 Look. 2554 02:28:09.959 --> 02:28:12.280 I mean, it's easy to like say, you know that 2555 02:28:12.360 --> 02:28:14.239 these guys are on the cutting edge of combat and 2556 02:28:14.319 --> 02:28:17.280 they're in ward they have to be warriors, and there there, 2557 02:28:17.319 --> 02:28:20.920 there is that, But there's a huge dividing line between 2558 02:28:21.280 --> 02:28:23.600 taking the fight to the enemy, you know, lay in 2559 02:28:23.680 --> 02:28:27.920 the hate and and doing things that are psychologically damage 2560 02:28:28.079 --> 02:28:31.959 to yourself and and just not in a cording wad. 2561 02:28:32.000 --> 02:28:33.639 Well, there's also the other thing is it's not just 2562 02:28:33.719 --> 02:28:36.159 we're not talking about ROE s really talking about when 2563 02:28:36.360 --> 02:28:38.520 when something goes wrong, though. The other thing is their 2564 02:28:38.559 --> 02:28:40.760 instinct is to cover it up, right, And there's nothing 2565 02:28:40.840 --> 02:28:44.559 honorable in that. There's nothing just in that scenario, and 2566 02:28:44.559 --> 02:28:47.840 and there's no internal accountability for it. So that's really 2567 02:28:48.280 --> 02:28:50.280 you know, a bigger issue. And that's why to your 2568 02:28:50.319 --> 02:28:52.760 point about what happened with the Chapman incident, is that 2569 02:28:53.120 --> 02:28:55.600 what is you know, let's forget about what happened at 2570 02:28:55.600 --> 02:28:57.559 the top of the mountain right for a second, and 2571 02:28:57.680 --> 02:29:01.239 let's just go to what happens when their image or 2572 02:29:01.239 --> 02:29:03.799 their story is threatened, right they turn. 2573 02:29:04.079 --> 02:29:06.399 And the thing is it wasn't even actively. They weren't 2574 02:29:06.399 --> 02:29:07.639 even actively the. 2575 02:29:07.559 --> 02:29:11.360 Air Force agreed to award of the Metal Honor just 2576 02:29:11.440 --> 02:29:14.319 for what happened in at Bunker one. To not even 2577 02:29:14.600 --> 02:29:17.120 talk about that he got up back up. 2578 02:29:17.040 --> 02:29:19.159 After No, no, no, that's not that's not true. That the 2579 02:29:19.200 --> 02:29:21.360 Air Force always had. There are two parts of the 2580 02:29:21.399 --> 02:29:26.079 award and two citations, two full citations. The agreement became 2581 02:29:26.600 --> 02:29:31.280 to make this second citation, which is for the after 2582 02:29:32.360 --> 02:29:35.520 getting back up and fighting for an hour, that became classified. 2583 02:29:35.559 --> 02:29:38.280 And that was a political decision. You make it classified 2584 02:29:38.280 --> 02:29:41.280 so that the public doesn't have to hear that one 2585 02:29:41.319 --> 02:29:44.680 guy got an award for one part the seal, but 2586 02:29:44.959 --> 02:29:47.799 you know, mistakenly left another guy behind and then that 2587 02:29:47.840 --> 02:29:50.239 guy got back up and fought for another hour on 2588 02:29:50.280 --> 02:29:52.719 his own. So that was too embarrassing. So that was 2589 02:29:52.760 --> 02:29:55.479 a political decision. But what they what they but I 2590 02:29:55.600 --> 02:29:58.159 want to correct you about something. What they did was 2591 02:29:58.639 --> 02:30:03.239 they actively went in and changed their story and misled 2592 02:30:03.280 --> 02:30:05.719 some of the senior officials of the Pentagon about what 2593 02:30:05.799 --> 02:30:08.520 had happened on there. And they they and you know, 2594 02:30:08.559 --> 02:30:10.399 one of the things I'm most proud of in the 2595 02:30:10.399 --> 02:30:13.040 reporting of this book is that I was able to 2596 02:30:13.079 --> 02:30:16.319 get a transcript and the recordings of a long interview 2597 02:30:16.600 --> 02:30:19.600 that Slabinsky did for a book in two thousand and four, 2598 02:30:19.799 --> 02:30:24.440 most of which was never published, and he lays out 2599 02:30:24.639 --> 02:30:27.959 in great detail what happened up there as he remembered. 2600 02:30:28.000 --> 02:30:31.040 It was consistent with all the things he had said previously, 2601 02:30:31.600 --> 02:30:34.040 was the story that he stuck to all the way 2602 02:30:34.120 --> 02:30:36.879 until the moment in which he was confronted with the 2603 02:30:36.920 --> 02:30:40.559 new video and the updated imagery, and then the story changes. 2604 02:30:40.760 --> 02:30:44.079 And that's the issue, right, It's the it's the lie, right, 2605 02:30:44.159 --> 02:30:47.040 it's the it's the the untruth, it's the misstatements. 2606 02:30:47.120 --> 02:30:47.280 Right. 2607 02:30:47.479 --> 02:30:49.559 That's where you get to the heart of the problem. 2608 02:30:49.600 --> 02:30:51.159 And that's the code, you know. 2609 02:30:55.399 --> 02:30:56.280 So that was the. 2610 02:30:58.440 --> 02:31:01.319 Any other nations have these issues, We've seen this with 2611 02:31:01.440 --> 02:31:02.799 the Aussies, anybody else. 2612 02:31:03.760 --> 02:31:07.000 I think every country and every military force that's ever 2613 02:31:07.040 --> 02:31:10.079 fought in war has these issues. And I think actually 2614 02:31:10.200 --> 02:31:15.000 probably true that America historically that are continue to evolve 2615 02:31:15.440 --> 02:31:17.840 in the in the good way, which is less and 2616 02:31:17.920 --> 02:31:20.840 less and fewer and fewer. Unfortunately, it's that what you 2617 02:31:20.920 --> 02:31:24.200 really don't want to see is if this is being 2618 02:31:24.239 --> 02:31:28.920 done by privates in the army, young marines, you know, 2619 02:31:29.200 --> 02:31:31.799 E three, Z four, Z fives, there is to some 2620 02:31:31.840 --> 02:31:38.079 extent it's understandable, don't acceptable when you have this level 2621 02:31:38.200 --> 02:31:43.959 of skill of training to veer off into the illegal 2622 02:31:44.159 --> 02:31:48.159 them morally unethical. It's much worse. And that's why the 2623 02:31:48.719 --> 02:31:50.200 officers have to be held accountable. 2624 02:31:50.239 --> 02:31:52.120 And that's one of the things that's struck me about 2625 02:31:52.159 --> 02:31:54.200 the whole mulgar thing is you're not talking about a 2626 02:31:54.200 --> 02:31:56.399 couple of nineteen year olds it like got drunk. You're 2627 02:31:56.399 --> 02:32:01.760 talking about an E six and seven, right, you know, Carlos, 2628 02:32:01.799 --> 02:32:04.559 Thank you. Another question. One other argument that's out there 2629 02:32:04.600 --> 02:32:06.840 and in this chat is the enemy does worst our 2630 02:32:06.879 --> 02:32:10.440 guys to city, so we should respond accordingly. Valid argument, 2631 02:32:10.559 --> 02:32:13.639 valid argument. Question mark, FYI not trying to drop money 2632 02:32:13.680 --> 02:32:14.840 to roast someone. I'm just curious. 2633 02:32:16.079 --> 02:32:18.360 I mean, I think this entire episode answers that question. 2634 02:32:18.440 --> 02:32:22.600 Yeah, yeah, I don't think there's any Look, if war 2635 02:32:22.680 --> 02:32:27.040 crimes are human, and they are, it's understandable. That doesn't 2636 02:32:27.079 --> 02:32:30.159 mean it's justifiable. And there is a difference between I mean, 2637 02:32:30.360 --> 02:32:32.280 you know, and the next question is is if it's 2638 02:32:32.280 --> 02:32:34.959 okay to chop a guy's head off after you kill them, 2639 02:32:35.079 --> 02:32:37.959 or chop his head off? What what isn't okay? 2640 02:32:38.000 --> 02:32:38.159 Then? 2641 02:32:38.200 --> 02:32:40.440 I mean that the the there's a reason why there 2642 02:32:40.440 --> 02:32:40.879 are lying. 2643 02:32:40.920 --> 02:32:44.360 If they if they sexually assault a female soldiers, does 2644 02:32:44.360 --> 02:32:47.000 that mean we can go in their village like it? 2645 02:32:47.319 --> 02:32:47.920 Kill them? 2646 02:32:48.440 --> 02:32:48.959 Like kill them? 2647 02:32:49.079 --> 02:32:51.319 They're bad guys? Kill them? But what more do you 2648 02:32:51.319 --> 02:32:54.280 need to do after that? Brandon? 2649 02:32:54.399 --> 02:32:58.399 Thank you? Brian? Sorry guys, Brian Ron spears, Band of 2650 02:32:58.440 --> 02:32:58.959 brother fame. 2651 02:32:59.000 --> 02:33:01.079 How to decorate a career in people want to remember 2652 02:33:01.559 --> 02:33:03.840 for what he never wanted to remember, for what he 2653 02:33:03.920 --> 02:33:04.840 never wanted to brag about. 2654 02:33:05.440 --> 02:33:07.799 I was talking about one of the guys was accused 2655 02:33:07.840 --> 02:33:15.200 of war crimes, executing German POWs during the war. It's 2656 02:33:15.200 --> 02:33:16.040 in the Band of Brothers. 2657 02:33:16.120 --> 02:33:18.479 Yeah, but I mean, what do you do with when 2658 02:33:18.479 --> 02:33:18.840 you're out? 2659 02:33:18.920 --> 02:33:19.120 You know? 2660 02:33:19.319 --> 02:33:23.280 One hundred miles from so. The book is Code over 2661 02:33:23.360 --> 02:33:27.479 Country by Matthew Cole. Matthew, what's next for you? Are 2662 02:33:27.520 --> 02:33:29.600 you doing anything like a book tour with the book? 2663 02:33:29.760 --> 02:33:32.079 Do you have anything else you're working on? What can 2664 02:33:32.079 --> 02:33:32.959 we expect? 2665 02:33:33.319 --> 02:33:35.920 We can expect you can expect I've got a story 2666 02:33:35.959 --> 02:33:39.159 coming for the Intercept where I'm an investigative reporter about 2667 02:33:39.159 --> 02:33:44.040 the Seals. A scandal, small scandal, but a scandal. Nonetheless, 2668 02:33:45.280 --> 02:33:47.920 I think I'm now going to do some tours. I 2669 02:33:47.920 --> 02:33:51.239 think when we first book first came out, Omicron had 2670 02:33:51.280 --> 02:33:54.200 still the mandates were all around. I think there's a 2671 02:33:54.200 --> 02:33:57.040 more little more freedom. So I hope to and I 2672 02:33:57.200 --> 02:34:01.280 have another investigation going on that may or may not 2673 02:34:01.319 --> 02:34:03.239 turn out to be a book, but I can't, unfortunately 2674 02:34:03.319 --> 02:34:03.879 talk about it. 2675 02:34:04.040 --> 02:34:06.440 Sure well, I hope that we're some of the first 2676 02:34:06.440 --> 02:34:07.280 people you do tell about. 2677 02:34:07.319 --> 02:34:09.559 I will be, I will be. I'm very grateful for 2678 02:34:09.639 --> 02:34:09.920 being on. 2679 02:34:10.280 --> 02:34:13.719 Guys can go pick up the book. It's ebook, it's 2680 02:34:13.719 --> 02:34:15.680 on Amazon, it's wherever you guys. 2681 02:34:15.440 --> 02:34:18.520 Shop audio, ebook, hardcover, and. 2682 02:34:18.520 --> 02:34:20.479 There's a lot more in here that we didn't cover up. 2683 02:34:20.639 --> 02:34:23.600 There's a lot of great content there. And again this 2684 02:34:23.760 --> 02:34:26.399 isn't to hate on seals and say that seals are 2685 02:34:26.440 --> 02:34:29.879 horrible human beings. This is just to show a problem 2686 02:34:30.360 --> 02:34:32.280 in that community. It really has to do with the leader. 2687 02:34:32.319 --> 02:34:35.319 Seals are not horrible human beings. There's an enormous amount 2688 02:34:35.319 --> 02:34:38.520 of honorable men who serve as seals, many of whom 2689 02:34:38.600 --> 02:34:40.760 frankly were sources for this book. 2690 02:34:40.959 --> 02:34:43.239 Yeah, and even even Silenski, even though we talked about 2691 02:34:43.280 --> 02:34:45.600 and change the problem, what he did was very courageous, 2692 02:34:45.639 --> 02:34:48.000 you know, going up there, going up again to. 2693 02:34:47.959 --> 02:34:50.879 Try to get Robert. You know, absolutely like you know it. 2694 02:34:51.120 --> 02:34:54.239 It's hard in these types of situations to look at 2695 02:34:54.280 --> 02:34:57.360 a person and judging by one action, because there's so 2696 02:34:57.479 --> 02:34:58.879 much more than it goes into it. 2697 02:34:59.000 --> 02:35:01.600 Absolutely know. I think that one of the things I 2698 02:35:01.680 --> 02:35:03.239 thought as I was writing about this is that in 2699 02:35:03.239 --> 02:35:05.040 a lot of ways, this is a book about good 2700 02:35:05.040 --> 02:35:07.840 men doing bad things. Yeah, and it's hard for people 2701 02:35:07.920 --> 02:35:13.120 to balance or conceive of the idea that good men 2702 02:35:13.159 --> 02:35:15.479 do bad things, bad men do good things. And that's 2703 02:35:15.479 --> 02:35:18.879 a tough you know, when they're mixed in, it's it's tough. 2704 02:35:18.879 --> 02:35:22.200 It doesn't fit neatly in this you know, a black 2705 02:35:22.239 --> 02:35:26.319 and white world where everything is easy to identify what's 2706 02:35:26.360 --> 02:35:28.440 good and what's bad. You know, this is a book 2707 02:35:28.440 --> 02:35:29.120 about the Grays. 2708 02:35:30.079 --> 02:35:32.440 Yeah, yeah, so guys, don't be afraid of the book. 2709 02:35:32.639 --> 02:35:34.760 Out of one hundred and thirty six episodes we've done 2710 02:35:34.799 --> 02:35:37.239 on this show, every once in a while there's one, 2711 02:35:37.360 --> 02:35:39.319 what the one that they even phillips that's like not 2712 02:35:39.520 --> 02:35:42.399 so cool, you know, but it's important to have these 2713 02:35:42.479 --> 02:35:45.680 kinds of conversations and I hope we can keep having them. 2714 02:35:46.360 --> 02:35:49.440 Next Friday, we're going to have a woman on the 2715 02:35:49.440 --> 02:35:53.559 show who served with the Cultural Support Teams and so 2716 02:35:53.719 --> 02:35:55.719 she's the first CST we've had on the show. So 2717 02:35:55.920 --> 02:35:59.079 looking forward to talking to her. And you guys, got 2718 02:35:59.120 --> 02:36:02.440 anything else? No, I'm really happy you have the intercept. 2719 02:36:02.479 --> 02:36:03.319 Where else can they find you? 2720 02:36:03.399 --> 02:36:03.600 Yeah? 2721 02:36:03.600 --> 02:36:07.360 The intercept. I'm an investigative reporter. You google me. I'm 2722 02:36:07.360 --> 02:36:10.680 on Twitter. I don't tweet much, but you can find 2723 02:36:10.680 --> 02:36:10.879 me there. 2724 02:36:10.920 --> 02:36:12.719 Yeah. Make sure you subscribe to the channel if you 2725 02:36:12.719 --> 02:36:15.440 haven't already joined our Patreon check the links down the 2726 02:36:15.440 --> 02:36:18.680 description by the book. Buy the book, check out the description, 2727 02:36:19.000 --> 02:36:20.000 check out code over con