1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,759 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:49,359 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind of a Murder. 14 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:52,799 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 5: We're joined today by New York Times bestselling author Daniel 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,600 Stashauer talking about his book American Demon, elliot Ness and 17 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:02,920 the Hunt for America's Jack the Ripper. 18 00:01:04,159 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 4: Dan, thank you so much for joining us today. 19 00:01:06,599 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 6: It's my pleasure start by. 20 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 5: Telling us a little bit about your personal and professional background, 21 00:01:11,599 --> 00:01:12,000 if you would. 22 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 6: Gosh, my personal and professional background are intertwined it's hard 23 00:01:16,879 --> 00:01:19,719 to separate them. I was thinking about it. I'm very 24 00:01:19,799 --> 00:01:22,159 lucky because a lot of the things that interested me 25 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,879 personally from childhood forward have become things that have become 26 00:01:26,159 --> 00:01:29,280 the basis of the work I do. I was a 27 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,840 kid who loved Sherlock Holmes, I loved mystery novels, and 28 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,680 that kind of led me into becoming interested in the 29 00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:40,640 history of mystery novels, and that led me to Arthur 30 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,319 Conan Doyle biographies, and it all kind of went from there, 31 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:48,000 and Conan Doyle himself got interested in various true crime 32 00:01:48,079 --> 00:01:51,319 stories over the course of his career. Just seemed like 33 00:01:51,359 --> 00:01:55,280 everything unfolded fairly naturally. And I've been lucky enough to 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,840 be able to follow that thread for many years. 35 00:01:59,079 --> 00:02:02,879 Speaker 5: But your subject matter choices for your books are just 36 00:02:02,959 --> 00:02:07,000 absolutely fascinating, and so they appealed to the teacher and me, 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,199 but also the crime lover in me and the history 38 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,000 lover in me. So you've written about Arthur Conan Doyle, 39 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,520 Filo Tie Farnsworth, Eggar Allen Poe, Abraham Lincoln, and now 40 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,400 Elliot nas Is all of this stemming from childhood loves 41 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,400 and interests or has some of it? 42 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 4: How else? Has the rest of it come around to you. 43 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 6: I would love to be able to tell you that 44 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,039 there was a well thought out master plan. There hasn't been. 45 00:02:31,039 --> 00:02:34,520 It tended to go where my enthusiasms of the moment 46 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,280 take me. In some cases, like you mentioned Abraham Lincoln, 47 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,680 that was intended to be a book about Alan Pinkerton. 48 00:02:40,759 --> 00:02:43,639 It was a book about Alan Pinkerton to some extent. 49 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,120 When I originally conceived of that book about the Baltimore 50 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,439 Plot of eighteen sixty one, the plot to assassinate Lincoln 51 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,360 on his way to Washington for his first inauguration as president. 52 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,520 I envisioned the story being about how Alan Pinkerton detected 53 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,639 and thwarted the plot within and justice piece of cargo 54 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,560 that was being carried on the train as it sped 55 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,759 towards the Washington And it was only as I dug 56 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,759 into that book that it became as much about Lincoln 57 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,840 and obviously the state of the Union at that time 58 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,319 as it did. But if I try to think of 59 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,280 the books I've written as a whole, I realized that 60 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,159 all of them have at their core some question that 61 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,479 I was unable to answer when I began, And I 62 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,199 think that's what draws me to the subjects, which on 63 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,439 the surface seem many of them unrelated one to the other. 64 00:03:33,159 --> 00:03:37,319 Speaker 2: Is that research driven, Dan? In other words, what are 65 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,199 you saying about the questions that you developed that you 66 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,240 wanted to get answers to. Is that part of the 67 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:47,319 process where you're learning more about a particular historical character 68 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:48,800 and then you get to the place where you're like, 69 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:49,919 wait a minute, what about this? 70 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 6: Oh? Absolutely, I feel that the research. I think a 71 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,879 lot of nonfiction writers would say the research is the 72 00:03:56,879 --> 00:04:00,960 part they enjoy. The research, to some extent, never ends. 73 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,240 I'm thinking in particular of my Conan Doyle biography, which 74 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,599 was my first nonfiction book. As a kid who loved 75 00:04:07,599 --> 00:04:11,800 Sherlock Holmes and being of a certain bookish turn of mind, 76 00:04:12,479 --> 00:04:16,480 I would start to read the biographies. I read the 77 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,079 biographies that were available to me at the time, and 78 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,879 they were great. There were terrific books, especially the one 79 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,000 by John Dixon Carr, and I enjoyed reading them and 80 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,759 I got a great deal out of them. But there 81 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,720 was a point in everything I read about Conan Doyle 82 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,319 where they got to his interest in spiritualism, and at 83 00:04:34,319 --> 00:04:36,839 that point theyked off. When I was a junior in college. 84 00:04:36,879 --> 00:04:39,399 I did a junior year abroad in England, and I 85 00:04:39,439 --> 00:04:43,199 bought up everything I could find that had Conan Doyle's 86 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,439 name on it. Of course, there were all kinds of 87 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,600 wonderful novels, and I couldn't afford particularly expensive Sherlock Holmes books, 88 00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:54,720 but I could afford his spiritualism books. And I was 89 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,120 just out of a frame of mind by pretty much 90 00:04:57,199 --> 00:05:00,759 everything that he'd written, which was readily available. So the 91 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,279 question began to form in my mind, how did the 92 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,560 greater of Sherlock Holmes find his way to spiritualism, the 93 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,800 belief that it's possible for we the living to communicate 94 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,560 with departed souls through a spirit conduit or medium. And 95 00:05:14,639 --> 00:05:18,639 I turned to the biographies for answers, and it wasn't 96 00:05:18,639 --> 00:05:21,040 that they were avoiding the question, but they did, as 97 00:05:21,079 --> 00:05:24,279 I say, back away at that point, and I remembered 98 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,519 John Dixon Carr in particular, a writer that we all 99 00:05:27,639 --> 00:05:31,959 know and admire, said described it in terms of a 100 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,560 flash that escapes analysis. There was something about Conan Doyle 101 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,639 that defied our efforts to understand, which I understand, and 102 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,199 that was fair enough. But Conan Doyle was interested in 103 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,680 spiritualism for much of his life, and he devoted the 104 00:05:45,759 --> 00:05:50,560 last fourteen years of his life merrily to putting forward 105 00:05:50,759 --> 00:05:53,279 this message, so much so that he became known as 106 00:05:53,319 --> 00:05:57,000 the Saint Paul of spiritualism. So why and how do 107 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:02,079 you appreciate his whole life without really try and grapple 108 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,199 with where he ended up. I'm not saying I cracked 109 00:06:05,199 --> 00:06:08,199 this riddle, but it was what drove me to do 110 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,199 the research and to write the book that I did. 111 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,600 And that's the part that's interesting to me in terms 112 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,240 of your question about if are they research driven? That 113 00:06:16,319 --> 00:06:20,079 book was published more than twenty years ago. I'm still 114 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,439 researching it. Great things go up all the time. That's 115 00:06:23,439 --> 00:06:25,800 a well that you never quite get to the bottom up. 116 00:06:26,399 --> 00:06:29,959 Speaker 5: So what was the question that was driving you when 117 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,519 you started looking into the I've seen them called the 118 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,399 Cleveland Torso killings, but I've also heard it called Butcher 119 00:06:36,399 --> 00:06:39,839 of Kingsbury Run. What was driving you when you started 120 00:06:39,879 --> 00:06:42,959 doing the research into the Butcher of Kingsbury Run? 121 00:06:43,399 --> 00:06:46,639 Speaker 6: That one? That story, It's a fairly simple answer, And 122 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,160 I've read other books about unsolved crimes. I think people 123 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,560 are drawn to that story, to Kingsbury Run and Matt Butcher, 124 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,199 the Torso Killer, what have you. People are drawn to 125 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,560 that story for the same reason they're drawn to Jack 126 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:04,160 the Ripper. It's a notorious series of crimes and it's unsolved, 127 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,160 and there is this sense, this lingering sense of mystery 128 00:07:09,199 --> 00:07:12,879 that hangs over and that's a temptation not just for writers, 129 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,319 but for anyone who's interested in the nature of crime, 130 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:16,519 true crime in. 131 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,879 Speaker 2: Particular, seeing as how we are a true crime podcast. 132 00:07:20,079 --> 00:07:24,720 Why do you think this horrific series of murders went unsolved? 133 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 6: It is sometimes observed that it was just beyond the 134 00:07:28,639 --> 00:07:32,199 abilities of the investigators in the Cleveland Police at the time. 135 00:07:32,759 --> 00:07:35,160 The more I dug into it, the more struck I 136 00:07:35,279 --> 00:07:42,519 was by how diligent, how hard working, and also how 137 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,199 creative the investigators in Cleveland were in their approach to 138 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:51,560 this crime. They threw everything they had at this crime. 139 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:58,839 They worked incredibly hard, and they even tried, to the 140 00:07:58,839 --> 00:08:02,160 best of their ability to push through the limitations of 141 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,680 forensic science and the time to improvise new techniques as 142 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,160 they went along. And there are two examples that come 143 00:08:08,199 --> 00:08:12,720 to mind. The coroner at the time when the investigation 144 00:08:12,839 --> 00:08:15,920 began pulled together a panel of experts to discuss the 145 00:08:15,959 --> 00:08:21,519 crime and to pool their thoughts and their various perspectives 146 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:25,000 on the case to produce what they called a synthetic 147 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,800 portrait of the killer. Today, we would understand that as 148 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:34,039 criminal profiling. They just instinctively were groping towards it in 149 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,559 their efforts to get a handle on this crime. And 150 00:08:37,639 --> 00:08:40,279 there was another instance that really struck me where there 151 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,960 was a particular suspect that they were looking that they 152 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,360 were looking for, but they couldn't find a picture of him. 153 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:48,759 But they only had a picture of him as a child. 154 00:08:48,879 --> 00:08:50,799 So what they did was they took this picture, they 155 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,240 projected it onto a piece of canvas, and an artist, 156 00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:01,679 using descriptions, embellished it to age up to approximate what 157 00:09:01,799 --> 00:09:05,879 the suspect might look like. Today today we've seen that 158 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,360 on any number of shows and movies age progression songs. 159 00:09:09,399 --> 00:09:13,279 But I find it remarkable that the investigators in Cleveland 160 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,440 at that time, who really there was nothing in their 161 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,240 rule book that would had prepared them for this, They 162 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,759 really were doing their best to push through and find 163 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,000 the handle on this case. As with any unsolved crime. 164 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,519 You guys know this as well as anyone. There are frustrations, 165 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,279 there are conflicts, there are all kinds of things that 166 00:09:37,399 --> 00:09:40,480 bubble up and then fall through the cracks. Again, in 167 00:09:40,519 --> 00:09:43,240 this case, it sure wasn't from lack of effort. They 168 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:46,000 did their absolute damnedest. 169 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: So within the limits of nineteen thirty's investigative technology, they 170 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,039 did everything they could. You're actually describing things that are 171 00:09:54,159 --> 00:09:59,559 commonplace now weren't commonplace ten or twenty years ago, never 172 00:09:59,639 --> 00:10:01,200 mind ninety years ago. 173 00:10:01,919 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 6: If it could have been solved just through sheer effort, 174 00:10:06,519 --> 00:10:09,720 through the number of man hours spent on it, yeah, 175 00:10:09,799 --> 00:10:10,759 they'd have gotten there. 176 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 5: So, ultimately, if it wasn't lack of effort on the 177 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,759 part of the Cleveland Police Department, and it certainly sounds 178 00:10:17,759 --> 00:10:20,360 like it wasn't that, what else was it that kept 179 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,399 this from making it across the finish line? Do you think? 180 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,399 Speaker 6: It's very difficult to say because there are so many 181 00:10:26,399 --> 00:10:30,519 contradictions and so many different angles on this story. But 182 00:10:30,759 --> 00:10:32,679 so a lot of the coverage at the time made 183 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,240 note of the fact that these crimes unfolded on a 184 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:38,600 timeline that over that coincided with the fiftieth anniversary of 185 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,559 Jack the Ripper's crime. There were a lot of similarities 186 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,879 but there were also differences, and it was and those 187 00:10:45,919 --> 00:10:49,879 differences also fold into why it posed such a challenge 188 00:10:49,919 --> 00:10:54,240 to the Cleveland investigators. We know what type of victim 189 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,440 Jack the Ripper was preying on. Yeah, in Cleveland, there 190 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,519 didn't seem to be a pattern. Women, black and white, 191 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,960 all over the all over the spectrum of people. What 192 00:11:06,039 --> 00:11:10,279 they seemed to have in common was that they were transient, 193 00:11:10,759 --> 00:11:14,360 indigent people on the margins of society, in a phrase 194 00:11:14,399 --> 00:11:16,879 that was used again and again at the time, people 195 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,879 who would not be missed, which suggests an opportunistic killer, 196 00:11:22,159 --> 00:11:26,240 which made it all the more troubling for the investigators. 197 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 5: So, and I asked you this already off air, because 198 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:33,279 I couldn't stand to wait until Wednesday to get this 199 00:11:33,519 --> 00:11:36,519 answer from you. And I asked you which interest of 200 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,440 yours came first? Was it the mad Butcher of Kingsbury 201 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,240 run case that was interesting to you? Or was it 202 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,120 Elliot mess Because I can see how both would be 203 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:47,039 very interesting. 204 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 4: So which of them came first. 205 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 6: For me personally? Yes, it was the It was the 206 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,799 Butcher story. I heard it for the first time around 207 00:11:55,799 --> 00:11:57,960 a campfire when I was eight or nine years old. 208 00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:01,480 I was a summer camp, so imagine it. I'm there, 209 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:06,639 we're roasting s'mores, and one of the counselors starts telling us, 210 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,200 essentially a campfire ghost stories on the butcher. I remember 211 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,679 at one point we had to stop to get an 212 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:21,120 explanation of what the word decapitated meant. And I remember 213 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,679 that there were many repetitions of the phrase, and the 214 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,039 killer is still out. 215 00:12:27,799 --> 00:12:32,159 Speaker 2: There inappropriate for a little kids. 216 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, if even one of today, if even one kid 217 00:12:36,759 --> 00:12:40,080 went home and said there'd be there would be a 218 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,360 lot of irate parents on the phone. Yeah, but you 219 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,600 didn't have to embellish this story a whole lot to 220 00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:48,600 turn it into the stuff at nightmares. And I don't 221 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:53,240 think anybody slept that night. So for me that came first. 222 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,559 It was the story of the butcher, and it would 223 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,440 be for me and for a lot of people. I 224 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,519 would imagine it was a childhood boogeyman, especially for people 225 00:13:01,759 --> 00:13:04,200 growing up as I did in the Cleveland area. 226 00:13:04,879 --> 00:13:07,799 Speaker 2: Kristin asked that question, and I didn't know the She 227 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:10,360 obviously had talked to you about this a little bit beforehand. 228 00:13:10,799 --> 00:13:13,200 When you started, I thought to myself, he's going to say, 229 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:15,840 Elliott Ness. It was exactly the opposite. 230 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,919 Speaker 6: It's funny because I grew up very aware of Ness. 231 00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:24,200 Elliot Ness. He's the hero of Chicago, Leefield, Deep Dish, Pizza. 232 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:25,000 Elliot Ness. 233 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:25,879 Speaker 2: We know him. 234 00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:29,799 Speaker 6: We remember him as a Chicago guy, leader of the Untouchables. 235 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,240 When we think of elliot Ness, we think of a 236 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,559 truck bursting through the doors of one of al Capone's breweries. 237 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,039 We don't think of Cleveland. But that chapter of his 238 00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:43,519 life was pretty much wrapped up with the repeal of Prohibition, 239 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,240 and it was more or less over by the time 240 00:13:46,279 --> 00:13:49,799 he turned thirty. So Ness was a very young man 241 00:13:49,879 --> 00:13:51,639 when he was a leader of the Untouchables. He was 242 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:55,679 a very young man in Chicago. He needed a second act, 243 00:13:55,919 --> 00:14:01,440 and he found one in Cleveland as director of public Safety. 244 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,960 When I was growing up, you heard about Ness, you 245 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,159 heard about him being in Cleveland. But it was always 246 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,639 or at least to me age twelve thirteen, whatever I was, 247 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:16,240 it was always a little contradictory. We were told when 248 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,000 I was growing up in Cleveland Heights, his widow had 249 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:23,440 lived nearby. I know his son went to my junior 250 00:14:23,519 --> 00:14:26,080 high school. There were things like that, but at that 251 00:14:26,159 --> 00:14:29,960 time I hadn't really grasped until I started looking at 252 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,759 newspaper headlines and things like that, just how important to 253 00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:37,720 figure he had been in Cleveland as as director of 254 00:14:37,759 --> 00:14:42,639 public safety. Was a big job, a big promotion. The 255 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:47,399 chief of police reported to Elliot Ness, who got the 256 00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:50,480 job when he was thirty two years old, and the 257 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:53,799 fire chief also, and the building department. He's in Chicago. 258 00:14:53,879 --> 00:14:56,200 He'd been in charge of a handful of guys and 259 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,159 now he's running a department that's in charge of thousands 260 00:14:59,159 --> 00:15:01,360 of city employees. I mean, it was huge, and a 261 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,639 lot of people expected him to fall flat on his face. 262 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:08,320 His marching orders were to clean up the police department, 263 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,240 which was essentially rotting from the inside out because of 264 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,039 corrupt and also to try to address the stranglehold that 265 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,480 the mob had on the city. Clean up the police department, 266 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:20,200 take down the mob. 267 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 2: And take down the mob. Break for lunch with a 268 00:15:23,919 --> 00:15:28,080 quick at police department. That was rifeless, corruption incredible. 269 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,039 Speaker 6: But the miracle of it is the degree the success 270 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,399 that he had, the degree to which he succeeded in 271 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,320 cleaning up the town. It's a really a remarkable story. 272 00:15:36,399 --> 00:15:38,720 But when we think of Ness, of course, we think 273 00:15:38,759 --> 00:15:43,360 of Chicago. Because of the TV book, the TV and 274 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:44,039 the movie. 275 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 5: The moment that I picked up your book and started 276 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,639 to read it, you hit me with a bombshell. Page 277 00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:51,799 one is when you were talking about the fact that 278 00:15:51,879 --> 00:15:55,240 Elliott and ness kept tabs on your grandfather, and I 279 00:15:55,279 --> 00:15:57,639 was like, this is a whole new ballgame. 280 00:15:57,759 --> 00:15:58,759 Speaker 4: This is crazy. 281 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,039 Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about the fact that can 282 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:03,720 Dadiel Elliott mess it's crazy. 283 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,639 Speaker 6: I did not know that going in, and I can't 284 00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:09,759 tell you what a surprise it was. 285 00:16:10,399 --> 00:16:10,879 Speaker 4: I bet it was. 286 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 6: His papers are held in Cleveland at the Western Reserve 287 00:16:14,559 --> 00:16:17,960 Historical Society Library at the History Center in Cleveland. It's 288 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,799 a wonderful facility. There are some big, bulging scrap books 289 00:16:21,919 --> 00:16:25,000 of Nessa's personal material there, and a lot of it 290 00:16:25,039 --> 00:16:28,080 is what you'd expect. It's newspaper clippings about ness and 291 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,000 about articles of interest. And there are a lot of 292 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:32,919 familiar names, people whose names we know and remember today. 293 00:16:32,919 --> 00:16:36,679 There are gangsters, There's Capone and others. And there are 294 00:16:36,759 --> 00:16:41,879 other of the eras Bright fdr and John D. Rockefeller 295 00:16:42,279 --> 00:16:46,200 and j Edgar Hoover. I'm turning the pages and yep, 296 00:16:46,519 --> 00:16:49,919 j Edgar Hoover, Fred P. Stash hour, I'm turning to 297 00:16:49,919 --> 00:16:54,720 the page. Wait what Fred P. Stash? I thought, surely 298 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,080 I have fallen asleep at the library, which is not 299 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,320 unknown it has happened. But I look again, and sure enough, 300 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:06,160 there he is my grandfather, a man I knew. Well. 301 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,200 I'd love to be able to come on here and 302 00:17:09,279 --> 00:17:13,599 tell you that my grandfather was a bootlegger, or he 303 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,200 was a bank robber, or best of all, a murder suspect. 304 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,880 No such luck. It turns out that he and Ness 305 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,559 crossed paths at least once a year at something called 306 00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,720 the Annville Review. Grandfather was a member of Cleveland City Club, 307 00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:33,880 where these otherwise sober minded businessmen got together and they 308 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,240 put on a program of sketches and comedy bits and 309 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:42,599 songs meant to poke fun at the city's leaders and 310 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,799 fat cats, which included Elliott Ness. So at least once 311 00:17:46,839 --> 00:17:49,599 a year and perhaps more, they'd have been in the 312 00:17:49,599 --> 00:17:53,240 same room, and my grandfather would have been on stage 313 00:17:53,319 --> 00:17:56,799 participating in these sketches. It was like the Washington Correspondence 314 00:17:56,839 --> 00:18:00,480 Dinner or a Comedy Central roast or something like that. 315 00:18:00,799 --> 00:18:05,160 And Ness apparently was tickled by it, because he cut 316 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,039 out articles about it. And there's one set of caricatures 317 00:18:09,039 --> 00:18:12,200 of the actors on stage, including my grandfather, pasted into 318 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:14,799 the scrap book. And there's also a picture of Ness 319 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,559 with his hand pressed to his forehead, laughing in appreciation 320 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,960 of a joke at his own expense. It's the craziest 321 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,200 thing because I knew my grandfather very well for thirty 322 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,839 four years, and I don't recall him ever mentioning elliot 323 00:18:29,839 --> 00:18:30,480 Ness my name. 324 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,759 Speaker 2: Wow, I'm picturing these guys in drag doing. 325 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:37,039 Speaker 6: These You're not wrong, Bill. There was some of that, 326 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,119 and there was somebody who took the stage to parody 327 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,759 Ness wearing short pants and a peter Pan collar and 328 00:18:43,799 --> 00:18:46,839 a little beanie like a scouting uniform that was meant 329 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:52,480 to be parodying Ness's enthusiasm. Ness's youth and his genie 330 00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:56,200 is enthusiasm. And he would say come in, spouting these 331 00:18:56,319 --> 00:18:59,720 sort of naive sentiments. And in one year they had 332 00:18:59,839 --> 00:19:02,359 him with a pair of angel wings clipped to his 333 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:08,400 back and he gives his line and he says, wait 334 00:19:08,599 --> 00:19:10,960 the sound of a siren, I fly, and he turned 335 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,039 sort of flutters away. I wish they I wish there 336 00:19:14,039 --> 00:19:14,680 were recordings. 337 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 2: Oh I know, if only there were a video at 338 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,279 a last note, And this for a guy who believed 339 00:19:22,279 --> 00:19:25,160 in myth making on a lot of levels, it sounds 340 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:27,240 like he didn't mind being poked fun at. 341 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 6: I know he may have been untouchable, but he could 342 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:34,079 take a joke. And it's one of many things about 343 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,119 him that I find completely admirable, very just. He just 344 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,400 seems to have enjoyed it and didn't take himself at 345 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,359 least in that instance. Certainly he wasn't taking himself too seriously. 346 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 5: Given the fact, like Bill just alluded to, Elliott Ness 347 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,599 has this whole larger than life persona, especially when he 348 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,440 was at the height of his fame, and then again 349 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,000 when The Untouchables came out again, we've got this version 350 00:19:57,039 --> 00:19:59,920 of Elliot mess It's writ large in the public consciousness. 351 00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:03,400 Was it difficult to determine what was fact and what 352 00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:07,119 was fiction or expedinging exaggeration when it came to Elliot 353 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:08,240 Ness and who exploits? 354 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 6: Yeah, it is. And it starts with the book The Untouchables, 355 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,680 which was written when Ness believed himself to be a 356 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:23,039 forgotten figure and with a collaborator, a sportswriter named Oscar Fraley. 357 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,440 There's some of the there's some correspondence, but by no 358 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:30,559 means all between Frehley and Ness in Cleveland that you 359 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:33,039 can look at, and they also spent some time together. 360 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,000 The story goes that they met while Ness was in 361 00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:39,319 New York on a business trip with a partner, and 362 00:20:40,039 --> 00:20:42,720 his partner knew Frehley, and they had met up in 363 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:45,440 a bar and it was pretty clear that no business 364 00:20:45,519 --> 00:20:47,839 was going to get done because Freyley was in no 365 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,640 position to invest in this business that the Ness and 366 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,880 his partner had going on. So these two friends were 367 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,200 just catching up while Ness sat quietly at the bar drinking, 368 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,279 and at one point Ness's friend turns to Freiley and says, 369 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,599 you want to get Elliott to tell you his story. 370 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,400 He's got some amazing stories about his time in Chicago. 371 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,680 He's the guy who took down al Capone. In Freiley's 372 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,000 telling the story, he didn't believe it. Ness looks like 373 00:21:15,039 --> 00:21:19,359 this mild manner guy. And Ness got to talking. The 374 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,119 stories just flowed out, and the next thing they knew, 375 00:21:22,279 --> 00:21:27,440 it was morning, and wow, Ness came to have snapped 376 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,000 out of it, seemed a little abashed, and said, oh, 377 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:32,279 let's cut this out. Let's go get some breakfast. And 378 00:21:32,319 --> 00:21:36,400 Fraley said you should write a book. One thing led 379 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,559 to another and they collaborated on it together. There's a 380 00:21:40,599 --> 00:21:45,839 document that the Ness pull called the Incident. That's a 381 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,640 fairly straightforward recounting of some of the incidents that took 382 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:56,079 place in Chicago. There's also stuff from Freyley saying, listen, 383 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,799 don't get worried if we embroider the facts a little, 384 00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:03,119 if we embellish, have poetic license. Seems to have troubled ness. 385 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,200 And so that's where some of the myth making and 386 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,960 some of the exaggerations and all that began. And then 387 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,160 the TV series obviously took that punched it through to 388 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:14,920 the next level. 389 00:22:16,279 --> 00:22:19,039 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 390 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:28,359 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 391 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,200 mindover Murder. I think you said a moment ago, Dan 392 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,839 brought me up short. Why would elliot Ness looking at 393 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,279 this from a twenty twenty two perspective, why would he 394 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,279 regard himself as a forgotten figure even back then? Was 395 00:22:43,319 --> 00:22:47,400 this myth all after the book and then the television 396 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,359 series and the movies, and is that more of a 397 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,039 recent creation? This myth of elliot ness Ness. 398 00:22:54,839 --> 00:22:58,079 Speaker 6: Was extremely famous at the height of the Untouchables drama. 399 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,440 There was all kinds of newspaper coverage that focused on 400 00:23:02,559 --> 00:23:05,799 Ness and the untouchables. And he was very careful at 401 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,680 the time and afterwards to be clear in saying, look, 402 00:23:09,799 --> 00:23:13,079 and I'm paraphrasing here, this isn't I do quote it 403 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,839 directly in the book. But he said, we did our part, 404 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:19,480 of course, but the real work of putting Copone behind 405 00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:22,880 bars was done by the taxman. Ness wasn't a taxman. 406 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,319 He said, we did our part. Our job was more spectacular, 407 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,880 that was all. But he was careful to give credit 408 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,640 to the treasury agents who had done the careful work 409 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,039 of building this tax case against Copone. And of course 410 00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:39,680 it was the tax case that is what put them away. 411 00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:46,319 Ness did an important job of cutting off capons, sources 412 00:23:46,319 --> 00:23:49,480 of revenue payoffs. And while this was going on, and 413 00:23:49,599 --> 00:23:52,720 also there had been a plan in place to also 414 00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:57,640 bring forward evidence on violations, not just tax issues. That 415 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,759 case was never cared forward. But if you're a newspaper 416 00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:05,279 man covering that story at the time, you're either going 417 00:24:05,319 --> 00:24:08,720 to write about a strict interpretation of tax law or 418 00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:11,720 this handsome young prohibition agent who drove a truck through 419 00:24:11,759 --> 00:24:14,680 the doors of an alcophone brewery. Which story are you 420 00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:17,920 going to focus off? Which movie would you rather see? 421 00:24:18,319 --> 00:24:21,440 The tex stuff at dry so Ness got a lot 422 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,680 of attention, and that carried over into his years in Cleveland. 423 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,960 He still was getting a lot of attention, but the 424 00:24:28,039 --> 00:24:31,599 Untouchables began to that chapter of his career began to 425 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,319 fade a little bit into the rearview mirror. Then is 426 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,920 a time as director of public safety came to an end. 427 00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:41,720 He did some work in Washington during World War Two, 428 00:24:41,759 --> 00:24:43,640 and when he came back, he decided he was going 429 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,319 to become a businessman. And he said, I may fall 430 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,839 flat on my face, but I'm sure having fun. In fact, 431 00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:52,079 he did fall flat on his face. He didn't do 432 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,400 terribly well as a businessman, and again not for lack 433 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:58,119 of trying. But during those years, as one of his 434 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,559 friends said, his career became a check board that defies analysis. 435 00:25:03,599 --> 00:25:08,440 And he tried very hard to translate his work as 436 00:25:08,519 --> 00:25:11,160 director of public Safety and as leader of the Untouchables 437 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,799 into into a business career he took. He had a 438 00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:19,599 pretty good innings, but he hitched his He hitched himself 439 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,759 to some horses that didn't exactly that did not pan out. 440 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,440 Then there was a he decided he would make a 441 00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:29,160 run at becoming mayor of Cleveland, and that didn't that 442 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,799 didn't pan out. But I'm sorry to go on at 443 00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:35,480 such length about it. But to answer your original question, 444 00:25:36,079 --> 00:25:39,759 although Ness participated in the writing of the book The Untouchables, 445 00:25:39,799 --> 00:25:42,519 he didn't live to see it published, and he did 446 00:25:42,599 --> 00:25:47,039 not live to see the television series that began two 447 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,839 years after the publication, And he did not live to 448 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:56,200 see the thunderclap of celebrity that that that attended the 449 00:25:56,519 --> 00:26:00,279 particularly the television show How Old Was Ness? And he 450 00:26:00,319 --> 00:26:03,400 died He was in his fifties, and he died of 451 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,799 a heart attack, pretty young. So none of that. And 452 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,839 so he didn't see Robert Stack portraying him in the 453 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,319 television series. He certainly didn't see Kevin Costner portraying him 454 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,400 in nineteen eighty seven. He was long gone. Maybe if 455 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,119 he had been around, he'd have cashed in. Maybe he 456 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,880 would have had a moderating effect on some of the mythologizing, 457 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,759 on some of the myth making that went on, particularly 458 00:26:29,799 --> 00:26:32,160 in the TV show Who Can. But but there's a 459 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,400 point at which he's no longer around to have any 460 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,160 role at all in the legend of aalians Ness. 461 00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:40,519 Speaker 2: In the myth making. Kristin and I were talking about 462 00:26:40,519 --> 00:26:44,640 this in a recent podcast. We were reading Edgar Allan Poe, 463 00:26:45,039 --> 00:26:48,640 and of course Poe is from an era pre recording 464 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:51,920 devices for the most part, and there even aren't very 465 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:55,559 many photographs of the man. Kristin was saying, we didn't 466 00:26:55,599 --> 00:26:59,759 know what his voice sounded like. And actually, when we 467 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:05,279 talk about elliot Ness today, in my head, I'm actually 468 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,359 picturing Robert Stack. Oh, of course, because he played the 469 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:10,200 part so well. 470 00:27:10,279 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 6: But that speaks to your point about the mythmaking. Who 471 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,400 do you see when I say Sherlock Holmes, you see 472 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,640 your first one? Yeah, that was a wrath bone. Maybe 473 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,160 you see Jeremy Brett. 474 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:21,759 Speaker 2: With the crazy hat. 475 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 6: Yeah. Elliott Ness was a real guy, but people tend 476 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,319 to think of him as being Robert Stack of that 477 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,559 clipped delivery, maybe with a Tommy gun in his hand. 478 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,839 Speaker 2: Oh exactly, I was doing that when you first mentioned 479 00:27:35,839 --> 00:27:37,160 his na with the Tommy. 480 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,799 Speaker 6: Absolutely absolutely, and believe me, the real Eliot Nests I 481 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,079 yield to no one in my admiration for the nineteen 482 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,359 eighty seven movie. But believe me, when I tell you, 483 00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,440 the real alien Ness did not throw Frank Nitti off 484 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:53,079 the roof of the Chicago Courthouse building. Just didn't happen 485 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,240 that way. But it makes a great story. 486 00:27:56,319 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 5: You've taken on two really tremendous subjects here that they 487 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,000 must have a ton of research material that you had 488 00:28:03,039 --> 00:28:06,480 to sift through. Can you give us a little insight 489 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:09,920 into your research process, because I imagine there was a ton 490 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:10,599 of it to do. 491 00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 6: Oh sure, And believe me when I say when I 492 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,359 talk about the story versus the real man, I'm not 493 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,799 in any way diminish it. The Nessa's career or what 494 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:29,599 he accomplished. He was astonishingly brave, and he accomplished incredible things. 495 00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:32,880 He just didn't do some of the things that he's 496 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:36,680 portrayed as doing, particularly in the Robert Stack TV series, 497 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,920 where obviously they had to keep there had to be 498 00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:42,880 a problem of the week to be sorted out. But 499 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,480 the research was tremendous fun because a lot of it 500 00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:49,960 is in the newspapers of the time, and you can 501 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,599 see Ness in particular in the early days in Chicago, 502 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,720 not quite finding his feet yet in dealing with the 503 00:28:57,119 --> 00:28:59,839 with reporters, being a little awkward to not quite sure. 504 00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:04,839 There's one interview that I particularly like where he's speaking 505 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,440 to a young woman, an attractive young woman who this 506 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,799 should have brought out the best in him, because she 507 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,319 was a young woman who had a particular interest in 508 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,720 crime detection. She'd actually taken courses and gotten a terrific 509 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,400 education in criminology, and she managed to draw out a 510 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,920 great deal from Ness in about his views on criminology. 511 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,839 But there was also this note of artifice that kept 512 00:29:34,279 --> 00:29:36,599 creeping into it, where you could see that he was 513 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,440 trying on a persona of a devil may care young 514 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,640 man who just happened into his career, and he was 515 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,319 using the phrases like I had afforded a great deal 516 00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:50,119 of amusement too, things like that, And another reporter who 517 00:29:50,119 --> 00:29:53,240 recalled Ness speaking to him but then dropping his mask 518 00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:55,599 and giving a wink as if it was all a 519 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,359 joke between the two of them. He said something like 520 00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:01,319 he is in short and an sigma and again I'm 521 00:30:01,359 --> 00:30:05,400 paraphrasing here, but an enigma with lots of potential. And 522 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,720 seeing that develop over time in the newspaper coverage was 523 00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:15,119 fascinating because Ness was very canny or became incredibly canny 524 00:30:15,519 --> 00:30:19,359 about using the press. As Sherlock Holmes, he was a 525 00:30:19,559 --> 00:30:23,359 boyhood enthusiast. He loved the Sherlock Holms story as Sherlock Holmes, 526 00:30:23,799 --> 00:30:26,200 the Sherlock Holmes stories. As Holmes once said, the press 527 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,480 is a valuable institution if only you know how to 528 00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:32,279 use it. Ness learned how to, particularly in Cleveland when 529 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:34,880 he was new in town. He knew that the press 530 00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:37,319 was going to be able to show him around at 531 00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:39,400 a time when he was literally learning his way around 532 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,640 as well as figuratively, and that they knew where the 533 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:48,039 bodies were buried. So he forged very close relationships with reporters, 534 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,480 and that proved useful to him in every phase of 535 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:51,960 his career. 536 00:30:53,039 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 2: You mentioned going down rabbit holes, which is one of 537 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,759 our favorite expressions on Mind over Murder. We talked about 538 00:30:58,799 --> 00:31:01,519 it a lot in the Colonial Park and other cases. 539 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,000 You mentioned going down rabbit holes regarding the Torso murders, 540 00:31:06,079 --> 00:31:08,799 the subject of American demon What were some of the 541 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,039 rabbit holes you found yourself going down. 542 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:16,200 Speaker 6: I think you've probably seen this more than once. I 543 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,480 think every writer who approaches an unsolved crime comes at 544 00:31:20,519 --> 00:31:24,559 it with the hope that they'll spot something, or stumble 545 00:31:24,599 --> 00:31:30,279 across something that has lain hidden or undisturbed all these years. 546 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,359 We live in hope, and I think approaching a crime 547 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,400 that way, even if you don't seriously believe that, say 548 00:31:37,519 --> 00:31:40,680 you're going to rip the jack the Ripper case wide 549 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,640 open after all these years, I do think it's a 550 00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:46,640 useful hat to wear in terms of coming to grips 551 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,599 with material and developing and understanding of the case. There's 552 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,519 no better way to get your arms around the details 553 00:31:55,559 --> 00:32:00,680 of the case than actually imagine yourself investigating. The more 554 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:04,359 time that passes, of course, the trail grows colder and 555 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:09,640 colder on this in any case, but of course you 556 00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:13,480 live in hope of something bubbling up or in some 557 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,039 way modern criminology, modern crime techniques being able to shed 558 00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:22,599 some light on it. There were a couple of victims 559 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,160 of the Torso Killer about whom we do know something. 560 00:32:27,359 --> 00:32:31,559 I worked pretty hard running some of those details through 561 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,599 computer databases and doing work down at the Library of 562 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,559 Congress and at the National Archives. Didn't particularly go anywhere, 563 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,400 but I feel that I developed a better understanding. It 564 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,400 helped me look through some of the murkier areas of 565 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,200 the crime, and at least try to understand at least 566 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:54,200 some of the challenges that would have faced the investigators 567 00:32:54,359 --> 00:32:54,680 at the. 568 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,359 Speaker 5: Time, and writing about true crime can be very challenging, 569 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,519 especially those crimes are as gruesome as they are. How 570 00:33:04,519 --> 00:33:06,799 did you step outside of your subject matter at the 571 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,359 end of the day so that you could continue to 572 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,039 interact and not constantly have brutalized bodies in your head? 573 00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:16,279 This is something that I know we both share as 574 00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:17,680 people who report on crimes. 575 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:19,359 Speaker 4: This is hard. It's tough to do. How did you 576 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,039 manage to separate yourself from it? 577 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,839 Speaker 6: Or did you I wasn't entirely successful. I have to 578 00:33:24,839 --> 00:33:28,119 say this story got under my skin in a way 579 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,000 that surprised me. I've written about true crime before, but 580 00:33:32,559 --> 00:33:36,079 the Beautiful Scargirl, which was a terrible murder, it was 581 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,960 one crime rather than a rather than a series of them. 582 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,400 There were a lot of things about this case that 583 00:33:43,559 --> 00:33:47,119 just converged to make it very hard to shake off 584 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:50,200 at the end of the day. And this is the 585 00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:53,119 last for your indulgence here because it's difficult to talk 586 00:33:53,119 --> 00:33:55,680 about this with it. I'm always suspicious of writers who 587 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,559 talk about how very sensitive they are and their magical 588 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,160 unicorns experience things so much more deeply than other people, 589 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,119 that anybody would be mortified by the boot horror of 590 00:34:07,279 --> 00:34:11,480 these crimes, and that there were so many of them. 591 00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:15,599 But I came to this story because I'd always wanted 592 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:20,119 to do a story set in my hometown of Cleveland, 593 00:34:21,039 --> 00:34:25,480 and my father was ill, and I knew I would 594 00:34:25,519 --> 00:34:28,800 be spending a lot of time in Cleveland, and it 595 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,719 seemed like the timing was good if I were to 596 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:34,519 do a story in Cleveland, because I was going to 597 00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:38,119 be going back and forth, and my father remembered some 598 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,679 of the details. My father was very small and this 599 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,840 was unfolding, but there were elements of this case. For instance, 600 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,000 there's nests. At the time, Cleveland was putting on this 601 00:34:48,119 --> 00:34:51,800 Great Lakes Exposition, great Big World's Fair that was patterned 602 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,840 on the Chicago Exposition. My father remembered going to it. 603 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,239 There were things about nests. There were parades and things 604 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,440 that happened during this time period that my father remembered, 605 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,960 and it started to become personal through that. My father 606 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:07,760 and I talked about it a lot. It gave us 607 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,679 something to talk about during those during those years, and 608 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,239 that made it hard to leave behind. At the end 609 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,840 of the day, so it was something that, again, this 610 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,559 sounds so self serving and in a way that I 611 00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:28,159 don't intend it to be. I found myself when the 612 00:35:28,199 --> 00:35:31,079 book came out, just needing to try to shake it 613 00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:35,320 off in some ways, and a friend suggested something that 614 00:35:36,119 --> 00:35:38,960 if I were a bit younger, I would have poo poo. 615 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,960 Did Itosur said, Oh, that sounds ridiculous. There's a memorial 616 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:48,079 tribute Nessa's grave marker. Memorial is in the same cemetery 617 00:35:48,079 --> 00:35:51,320 where my parents are buried and my grandparents, so I 618 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,400 visited it often, and I'm in the habit when I 619 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,760 visit my father's gravestone of leaving a little airplane sized 620 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,119 bottle of Jamison's Irish whiskey there. 621 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: Oh, very appropriate. 622 00:36:03,079 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 6: Well, yeah, the last time I was there, I also 623 00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:10,840 went to Nessa's memorial and left the copy of the book. 624 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:16,599 Oh just felt like a way of not believe me. 625 00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:20,480 I don't for a minute. I don't intend that is. Look, Elliott, 626 00:36:20,559 --> 00:36:23,039 I did this for you because it's not that the 627 00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:27,800 story continues. The story has been began long before I 628 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,760 got there, and it will continue. A lot and lots 629 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,880 of people are involved in it. There's been all kinds 630 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,239 of wonderful work done on this case and will continue 631 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:40,599 to be in the future. But it was trying to 632 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,960 at least signal that I had tried to tried to 633 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:45,719 do my best. 634 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 4: That's fantastic. 635 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 2: I love that I do too. When you were talking 636 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,239 about your research, Dan, I was thinking about you going 637 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,599 back and digging into these newspaper archives for all of 638 00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:04,800 the arts articles from Cleveland, Chicago and elsewhere. Does microfiche 639 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,639 still play a part in your life? Or have we 640 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,039 digitized all of these microspapers? 641 00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:13,519 Speaker 6: Microfish plays a huge part though, that same hand crank 642 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,760 or though with a little button that makes it go, 643 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:18,679 and I swear it takes you right back to junior 644 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,199 high school. Yes, because that hasn't changed a whole lot, 645 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,320 the reel to reel of microfilm. But yeah, the microfiche 646 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,199 where you put it on that hot glass plate, you 647 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,920 can almost smell it cooking under there, and you. 648 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 2: Turn the crank on some of the models of Yeah. Yeah, 649 00:37:34,519 --> 00:37:36,599 but I like that both of us do too. But 650 00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:38,280 one of the things that Kristin and I have talked 651 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,079 about is, in addition to finding the articles, which can 652 00:37:41,119 --> 00:37:43,920 take some time, you also see all sorts of other 653 00:37:44,639 --> 00:37:48,719 articles and even the advertisements in a lot of these newspapers, 654 00:37:49,039 --> 00:37:52,159 so you're actually looking at an old newspaper page by page, 655 00:37:52,159 --> 00:37:52,599 which is. 656 00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 6: Fascinating, fascinating, but also useful because it does give you 657 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,199 some very important context about the way the story was 658 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:03,800 weighted compared to other things that were going on at 659 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:08,400 the time. When one of the bodies in Cleveland was discovered, 660 00:38:08,599 --> 00:38:14,719 the headline that day was help sinking Amelia Radios. It 661 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,280 was Emilia Earhart had disappeared while this was going on, 662 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,480 and things like that. You just see all kinds of 663 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:29,199 remarkable things happening at the same time, competing for a 664 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,840 bandwidth with the developments of these stories. You see what 665 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,440 people were concerned with, and I think that's very useful, 666 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,039 But I also have to say it was also very 667 00:38:39,039 --> 00:38:42,039 interesting looking at the scrap books that looking at the 668 00:38:42,119 --> 00:38:45,559 articles the Nest Preserve. Very early on, there was an 669 00:38:45,639 --> 00:38:49,360 article about himself had a sort of some kind of 670 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,639 civic dinner where he's dressed up in the evening clothes 671 00:38:53,679 --> 00:38:55,880 and he's with his wife and they are all a 672 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,519 lot of the city's leaders are there. It's a grand 673 00:38:58,599 --> 00:39:01,920 night out with the city's wheelers and dealers, and he's 674 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,840 clipped this article out very carefully and put it in 675 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,480 a scrap book. When I came across the same article 676 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,440 in the newspaper. One of the things that he had 677 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,960 clipped around was the discovery of some body parts in 678 00:39:16,159 --> 00:39:19,880 one of the in one of these killings. And it 679 00:39:20,119 --> 00:39:23,280 was very interesting to see how, at least in the 680 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,119 early days as Director of public Safety, that wasn't something 681 00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:32,159 nobody expected the Director of public Safety, at least at 682 00:39:32,199 --> 00:39:35,039 the beginning, to become involved in this. He wasn't brought 683 00:39:35,039 --> 00:39:39,559 on to investigate murders anymore than he was investigated than 684 00:39:39,559 --> 00:39:42,800 he was brought in to put out house fires or 685 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,159 rescue cats stranded in trees, although the fire chief also 686 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,559 reported to him, but this is elliot ness we're talking about, 687 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,119 and you, over time, as the coverage continues, he did 688 00:39:55,119 --> 00:39:57,760 get drawn into it. Well did expect action, And he 689 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,320 himself had said, look, I'm not gonna I'm not I'm 690 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,800 going to lead from the front lines. I'm not going 691 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,239 to be in a remote director and stuck in my 692 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,800 office at city Hall. I'm going to be out there. 693 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,199 I'm going to be out there doing the job. 694 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 5: And he did you describe yourself A couple times in 695 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,800 the book as being a true crime officionado, and I 696 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,639 know that you are. What are some other cases that 697 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,679 you feel like you'd like to sink your teeth into, 698 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,760 although I imagine you'd need a break from it for a 699 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,360 little bit after dealing with the Torso killings. 700 00:40:29,079 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 6: I think a lot of true crime you must see 701 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:32,719 this all the time. But I think a lot of 702 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,920 true crime enthusiasts and a lot of true crime writers 703 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,440 would say the same thing. One of the things, the 704 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,760 most important thing perhaps that draws me into a particular 705 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,440 story is character who when I was a beautiful scargirl, 706 00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:48,199 I was drawn in by the character of Edgar Allan Poe. 707 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,440 It's a very interesting story, and with our peril, I 708 00:40:51,519 --> 00:40:55,199 was originally drawn in by my interest in the character 709 00:40:55,679 --> 00:41:03,280 of Alan Pinkerton. Another remarkable story, this barefoot cooper in Dundee, Illinois, 710 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,679 who suddenly finds that suddenly, but by slow degrees, finds 711 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,320 himself America's first private eye. Just a fantastic and elliot 712 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:17,960 Ness is a similar character that's just fascinating. Even if 713 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,360 you were to strip the Torso murders out of it, 714 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:26,639 elliott Ness would still be this spectacularly interesting character. For me, 715 00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:31,199 that's what draws me in, the really interesting figures who 716 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,679 you can build the story around. I mentioned at the 717 00:41:34,679 --> 00:41:40,559 beginning when we started talking about childhood enthusiasms, another childhood 718 00:41:40,639 --> 00:41:46,079 enthusiasm of mine is was magic, magic and magicians. I 719 00:41:46,119 --> 00:41:48,000 was crazy about it. I've been a member of the 720 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,519 Society of American Magicians for more than forty years. Although 721 00:41:51,599 --> 00:41:54,440 I am a terrible magician because I don't because I 722 00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:59,440 don't practice. But I've always dreamed of finding a story 723 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:05,719 that some involved magicians, magic to some extent, but also 724 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:10,239 true crime. There's never been anything that quite where they 725 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,760 quite intersected to the degree that I would need to 726 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,800 be able to spin, to be able to spin something 727 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:22,199 out of it. Well, now that would be the dream. 728 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,079 Speaker 4: I look for something for it. 729 00:42:25,199 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 2: Unless you moved back to the fictional. 730 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 6: Thing. Yeah, yeah, I used to love reading books by 731 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,880 people like Clayton Rawson and Walter B. Gibson, John Dixon Carr, 732 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,480 where there'd be an elegant, top headed magician with an 733 00:42:39,519 --> 00:42:43,280 opera cape who just happens to be great at solving crime. 734 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,559 Speaker 2: That's a different approach, though you're. 735 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 6: Not a very different approach. 736 00:42:51,039 --> 00:42:54,320 Speaker 2: No, this is fascinating Dan. 737 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 5: The book is American Demon Elliott Nass and the Hunt 738 00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,000 for America is Jack the Ripper. 739 00:42:59,119 --> 00:43:00,159 Speaker 4: And we can find. 740 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 6: If fine books are sold or my website stash hour 741 00:43:03,559 --> 00:43:06,039 dot com, but really most anywhere. 742 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,679 Speaker 5: Dan, thank you so much for coming on and talking 743 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,280 with us today about American Demon. It's an amazing book, 744 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,800 and all of your books are amazing. We do encourage 745 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,719 our listeners to buy all of Dan's other books as well. 746 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:18,679 Speaker 4: They are fantastic. 747 00:43:19,559 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 6: Kind of you to say thanks, Thank you so much. 748 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:26,119 Speaker 4: For listening to this episode of mind Over Murder. We'll 749 00:43:26,159 --> 00:43:26,920 see you next time. 750 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 751 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:42,320 Dog Productions. 752 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,199 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 753 00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit. 754 00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 755 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 756 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 757 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 758 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,760 Murders on Facebook. 759 00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:07,559 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 760 00:44:07,599 --> 00:44:09,199 Bill Thomas five six. 761 00:44:09,679 --> 00:44:12,800 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.