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<v Speaker 1>What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're going to dive into

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<v Speaker 1>that Kathy Rumler transcript from her meeting with Congress, and

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<v Speaker 1>like usual, we're just going to skip all the nonsense

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<v Speaker 1>at the beginning where they're talking about who's there and

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<v Speaker 1>who is going to be taking part in the transcribed

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<v Speaker 1>interview with miss Rumler, and instead we're going to pick

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<v Speaker 1>up with her opening statement. Kathy Rumler, thank you very much,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you all for the opportunity to appear before the committee.

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<v Speaker 1>I have been a practicing lawyer for thirty years, as

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<v Speaker 1>a federal prosecutor, as a defense attorney, and as general counsel.

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<v Speaker 1>I first met Jeffrey Epstein in July of twenty fourteen,

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<v Speaker 1>when I was restarting my legal practice after having served

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<v Speaker 1>several years in government. Although Epstein was never my client,

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<v Speaker 1>I got to know him when he referred a financial

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<v Speaker 1>institution client to me for which he was the primary advisor.

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<v Speaker 1>There are two important points that I want to make

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<v Speaker 1>up front. I didn't see any evidence of an ongoing

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<v Speaker 1>criminal conduct or misconduct of any kind by mister Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>during the time I dealt with him. Second, if I

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<v Speaker 1>had seen or heard any evidence suggesting that he was

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<v Speaker 1>abusing women or girls, I would have immediately reported him

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<v Speaker 1>to law enforcement. I knew then. What If I knew

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<v Speaker 1>then what I know now about Epstein and what he

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<v Speaker 1>really was, I never would have accepted an initial meeting

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<v Speaker 1>with him. It was a mistake to deal with them,

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<v Speaker 1>and I regret it. But many people assume that, given

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<v Speaker 1>everything we know about Epstein, everyone who dealt with him

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<v Speaker 1>before his twenty nineteen indictment must have known everything then.

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<v Speaker 1>In my case, that assumption is completely wrong. When Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>Cole called me at my law firm in July of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty fourteen, I had never heard of him and I

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<v Speaker 1>knew nothing about him. He told me that he was

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<v Speaker 1>working with Bill Gates to set up a large donor

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<v Speaker 1>advise fund, and that he and mister Gates were looking

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<v Speaker 1>for someone to quarterback the myriad legal issues involved and

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<v Speaker 1>establishing and administering his fund. Though the donor advised fund

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately did not materialize. Within weeks, Epstein referred another important client,

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<v Speaker 1>which did retain me and which I represented until I

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<v Speaker 1>left my law firm in twenty twenty. Epstein was already

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<v Speaker 1>a primary adviser to that client, a role he maintained

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<v Speaker 1>throughout my time in private practice, and I had substantial

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<v Speaker 1>dealings with them as a result. He also referred other

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<v Speaker 1>clients to me, and even though I wasn't his lawyer,

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<v Speaker 1>he saw my advice from time to time, as many

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<v Speaker 1>people do. I was friendly with him in that context,

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<v Speaker 1>and I dealt with them in my ordinary course, casually, informally,

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<v Speaker 1>and sometimes irreverently. Shortly after meeting Epstein, I came to

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<v Speaker 1>understand that he had pleaded guilty six years earlier to

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<v Speaker 1>two prostitution related offenses, including solicitation of a minor for prostitution,

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<v Speaker 1>and had received a non prosecution agreement from the Department

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<v Speaker 1>of Justice. I learned from him that he had received

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<v Speaker 1>an eighteen month sentence, of which he served thirteen months,

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<v Speaker 1>much of that time on work release. Epstein told me

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<v Speaker 1>that while a small number of women he had solicited

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<v Speaker 1>for prostitution turned out to be under the age of consent,

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<v Speaker 1>he had not known that any of them were under age.

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein appeared to be quite open about the conduct leading

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<v Speaker 1>to his conviction, or so he led me to believe.

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<v Speaker 1>He expressed remorse, embarrassment, and regret for his conduct, which

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<v Speaker 1>he described as paying money for sex to women he

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<v Speaker 1>believed to be over the age of eighteen. Notwithstanding his conviction,

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<v Speaker 1>by the time I met him, he had active relationships

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<v Speaker 1>with extensive groups of respective professionals in business, academia, politics,

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<v Speaker 1>and the arts. And given the nature of my law practice,

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<v Speaker 1>I routinely dealt with compromise or controversial people, including those

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<v Speaker 1>facing criminal or other allegations of wrongdoing. To be clear,

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<v Speaker 1>at no time that I endorse or excuse the conduct

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<v Speaker 1>for which Epstein had pleaded guilty in two thousand and eight.

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<v Speaker 1>As a I'm a prosecutor, I relied on a resolution

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<v Speaker 1>reach by a federal and state prosecutors and validated by

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<v Speaker 1>a judge as being a proportionate and final resolution to

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<v Speaker 1>its criminal conduct. In light of everything that we know now,

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<v Speaker 1>that resolution was deeply flawed, but at the time, given

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<v Speaker 1>my experience, the resolution seemed consistent with his description that

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<v Speaker 1>he was a customer or a john and had never

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<v Speaker 1>intentionally targeted miners. Epstein also provided me with a letter

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<v Speaker 1>that one of his attorneys in the matter, Stephanie Thacker,

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<v Speaker 1>had written to the Deputy Attorney General's Office at DOJ

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty eighteen, appealing the U. S. Attorney's requirement that

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein entered a non prosecution agreement. Although I did not

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<v Speaker 1>know Miss Thacker personally, I know of a reputation as

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<v Speaker 1>a judge on the US Court of Appeals and as

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<v Speaker 1>a respected an experienced former's supervisory prosecutor in DOJ's Child

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<v Speaker 1>Exploitation and Obscenity Section. Miss Thacker's lengthy and substantive letter

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<v Speaker 1>stated that the evidence gathered by the state and federal

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<v Speaker 1>investigator showed that Epstein saw commercial sex only from people

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<v Speaker 1>who were of age. As we know now, his conduct

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<v Speaker 1>was much worse and more sinister. But at the time

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<v Speaker 1>I reviewed Miss Stacker's letter, I strongly supported and corroborated

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein's explanations to me, and based on my experience as

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<v Speaker 1>a former senior DOJ official, I also knew that the U. S.

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<v Speaker 1>Attorney's office in Miami had a reputation for aggressive, hard

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<v Speaker 1>NOS prosecution. I believed that though prosecutors would have charged

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<v Speaker 1>them with targeting miners for commercial sex if they had

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<v Speaker 1>sufficient evidence to support the charges. My communication with Epstein

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<v Speaker 1>ended in July of twenty nineteen, after he was indicted

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<v Speaker 1>for sex trafficking miners. I was shocked by the indictment,

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<v Speaker 1>which led alleged that Epstein had intentionally enticed and recruited

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<v Speaker 1>minor girls to engage in sex acts with him in

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<v Speaker 1>exchange for cash. Those horrific allegations, which covered conduct that

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<v Speaker 1>had occurred almost ten years before I I met Epstein,

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<v Speaker 1>contradicted what I understood about the nature and scope of

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<v Speaker 1>the prior conduct. There has been so much media attention

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<v Speaker 1>around my email communication with Epstein and the gifts that

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<v Speaker 1>he gave me. Many of my emails with Epstein have

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<v Speaker 1>been taken out of context or do not mean what

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<v Speaker 1>some have speculated or suggested. With that said, given what

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<v Speaker 1>I know about him now, I wish that I would

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<v Speaker 1>have dealt with them at all, much less emailed with him.

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<v Speaker 1>With respect to gifts, I didn't ask for them, I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't need them, and I didn't view them as a

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<v Speaker 1>particularly personal or consequential. I accepted them graciously, as I

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<v Speaker 1>saw no reason not to. But the gifts weren't important

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<v Speaker 1>to me, and I declined to accept some of them.

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<v Speaker 1>In any event, nothing he gave me caused me to

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<v Speaker 1>deal with him any differently than I otherwise would have

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein was a masterful liar, and he clearly lied to me.

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<v Speaker 1>I can see now that he used me and the

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<v Speaker 1>other respectable people to legitimize his standing, and I know

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<v Speaker 1>now that he often exaggerated relationship with me to others.

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<v Speaker 1>I understand how frustrating and hurtful it must have been

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<v Speaker 1>for anyone victimized by Epstein, so to see him going

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<v Speaker 1>about his life without facing the type of accountability and

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<v Speaker 1>consequences he deserved. I'm angry that he hurts so many people,

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<v Speaker 1>and I regret ever having anything to do with him.

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<v Speaker 1>I look forward to answering the committee's questions. Mister Grant,

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Miss Rumler. The time reads ten twenty three,

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<v Speaker 1>and the Majority's time will begin now, mister Grant. Question,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you for that opening statement. Of course, just to

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<v Speaker 1>make sure that we have a thorough transcript of today's interview,

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<v Speaker 1>some of these questions will, of course elicit what you

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<v Speaker 1>just brought up in your opening statement, so I want

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<v Speaker 1>to apologize in advance for that answer. Understood. Question, I

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<v Speaker 1>want to briefly begin with discussing your background. So where

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<v Speaker 1>did you attend undergraduate school? Answer? The University of Washington

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<v Speaker 1>in Seattle. Question and what degree did you graduate with?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer A Bachelor of Arts degree in English. Question and

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<v Speaker 1>where did you attend law school? Answer Georgetown University Law Center.

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<v Speaker 1>Question and when did you graduate from Georgetown? Answer nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>ninety six. Question When were you admitted to practice law?

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<v Speaker 1>Answer nineteen ninety eight. Question and what jurisdiction do you

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<v Speaker 1>currently hold a bar license? Answer the District of Columbia,

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<v Speaker 1>the State of Virginia, and State of New York. Answer

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<v Speaker 1>are your licenses currently in good standing? Answer yes? Question

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<v Speaker 1>and can you briefly just go through your professional background

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<v Speaker 1>from when you graduated law school until current day? Answer sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Right after law school, I clerked on the United States

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<v Speaker 1>Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. Then I worked

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<v Speaker 1>at a litigation boutique here in DC where I specialized

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<v Speaker 1>in white collar criminal defense. From there, I went to

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<v Speaker 1>the White House where I worked as an Associate Council

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<v Speaker 1>to the President for President William Jefferson Clinton. From there,

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<v Speaker 1>I worked briefly at a law firm in Washington, DC,

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<v Speaker 1>the law firm of Latham and Watkins. And I left

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<v Speaker 1>Latham and Watkins when I had the opportunity to go

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<v Speaker 1>and work at the US Attorney's office in DC as

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<v Speaker 1>an assistant US Attorney. I worked in that office for

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<v Speaker 1>a few years, and then I had the opportunity to

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<v Speaker 1>go on detail to Maine Justice, where I spent close

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<v Speaker 1>to four years on the investigation and prosecution of executives

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<v Speaker 1>at Enron after its collapse. I then returned to the

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<v Speaker 1>private practice as a partner to the law firm of

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<v Speaker 1>Latham Watkins, where I again specialized in white collar criminal defense.

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<v Speaker 1>I was there for two years, and then I returned

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<v Speaker 1>to the government in January of two thousand and nine

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<v Speaker 1>in a senior management role at the Justice Department. I

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<v Speaker 1>served as Principal Associate Deputy Attorney General until twenty ten.

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty ten, I moved to the White House, where

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<v Speaker 1>I became Principal Deputy White House Council for President Barack Obama.

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<v Speaker 1>In June of twenty eleven, I was promoted to White

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<v Speaker 1>House Council for President Barack Obama. I served in that

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<v Speaker 1>role until May of twenty fourteen, and I returned to

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<v Speaker 1>private practice at Latham and Watkins in July of twenty fourteen,

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<v Speaker 1>where I became the global chair of the white collar

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<v Speaker 1>Defense and Investigations practice. At Latham, I worked in private

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<v Speaker 1>practice in the capacity until April of twenty twenty when

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<v Speaker 1>I moved to go to Goldman Sachs. My first position

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<v Speaker 1>at Goldman Sachs was Global Head of Regulatory Affairs. I

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<v Speaker 1>then I moved to become or was promoted to become

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<v Speaker 1>the Chief Legal Officer and General Council of Goldman Sachs

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<v Speaker 1>in March of twenty twenty one, and in February of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty six, I announced that I'd be stepping down

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<v Speaker 1>from those roles at the end of June, and I

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<v Speaker 1>currently am in an advisory role at Goldman Sachs. Question.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you a very illustrious career answer, Thank you. Question

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<v Speaker 1>What were your primary responsibilities when you were at the

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<v Speaker 1>White House and you were the White House Council. Answer?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, the very first White House count Council was

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<v Speaker 1>appointed by then President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and he was asked,

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<v Speaker 1>this is I don't know if this is apocryphal, but

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<v Speaker 1>this is the story. He was asked by a member

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<v Speaker 1>of the media what his White House Council was going

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<v Speaker 1>to do, and he said legal stuff. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's still a pretty apt description of the job as

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<v Speaker 1>White House counsel. There's a number of responsibilities that I

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<v Speaker 1>think are very particularized to the role. You're responsible for

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<v Speaker 1>judicial nominations, making recommendations to the President for judicial nominations,

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<v Speaker 1>and shepherding those along with the Office of Legislative Affairs

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<v Speaker 1>through the Senate confirmation process. You are. At least when

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<v Speaker 1>I was working for President Obama, I had the responsibility

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<v Speaker 1>for making clemency recommendations to the President, advising on legality

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<v Speaker 1>of matters relating to domestic policy, national security, and congressional oversight.

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<v Speaker 1>It's been quite a few years since I've been up

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<v Speaker 1>there with the White House Committee. I've typically always been

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<v Speaker 1>a lawyer, so this is my first go around as

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<v Speaker 1>a witness and not being a lawyer here. But that

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<v Speaker 1>was a significant part of my responsibility, responding to Congress

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<v Speaker 1>and communicating with general counsels of the other agencies. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's a very broad portfolio. All right, folks, we're going

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<v Speaker 1>to wrap up episode one right there, and in the

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<v Speaker 1>next episode dealing with the topic, we're gonna pick up

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<v Speaker 1>where we left off. All the information that goes with

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<v Speaker 1>this episode can be found in the description box.