Speaker 1: It's a nice side with Dan Ray w b Z Radio.
Speaker 2: Well, we are about to enter into the political season,
Speaker 2: which course everybody thinks about politics, and you think about
Speaker 2: the presidential election. And tonight the Democrats are beginning their
Speaker 2: four day convention in Chicago. We'll talk about that a
Speaker 2: little bit later on, but there will be some ballot
Speaker 2: questions here in Massachusetts. We're going to deal what with
Speaker 2: and one of the high profile ballot question we'll be
Speaker 2: dealing with the MCST graduation requirement question two, the elimination
Speaker 2: of mcast as a high school graduation requirement in Massachusetts
Speaker 2: with us is Mary Tamer. Mary is a former member
Speaker 2: of the Boston School Committee. She ran for state representative.
Speaker 2: She is the executive director of a group here in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2: And I want to make sure Mary that I get
Speaker 2: the name exactly core of the group. I don't want
Speaker 2: to mess it up here, so let me get it
Speaker 2: right here, or you can tell us it's the Massachusetts
Speaker 2: Democrats for Education Reform.
Speaker 3: Correct, correct, Yes, And I ran for city council in Boston.
Speaker 4: Dan, that's said representative. I apologize that.
Speaker 2: You absolutely absolutely, So first of all, let's start it off.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people who know exactly what MCASS is.
Speaker 2: But give us the history of MCASS. It was an
Speaker 2: education reform that began in the mid nineteen nineties with
Speaker 2: bipartisan support on Beacon Hill, not only the Democratic leadership,
Speaker 2: the Senate President of the time was Tom Birmingham and
Speaker 2: Governor Bill Weld, and they worked on this very hard,
Speaker 2: and so it's been in existence now for almost thirty years.
Speaker 2: Tell us what it is, what it does, and what
Speaker 2: it means, and just sure as a foundation for our conversation.
Speaker 3: Well, thanks for having me on, Dan. This is a
Speaker 3: really important topic for us, and you know, I think
Speaker 3: for families across Massachusetts. But MCAST was, you know, one
Speaker 3: of the things that ultimately came out of the nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety three Education Reform Act of Massachusetts. So that brought
Speaker 3: us charter schools, for example, it brought us a new
Speaker 3: way that the Chapter seventy funding formula for all of
Speaker 3: Massachusetts schools. And it also paved the way for a
Speaker 3: new system of standards and accountability for our schools in Massachusetts.
Speaker 3: And so MCAST itself, or our annual Assessment didn't come
Speaker 3: into being for a few years later. I think it
Speaker 3: was right around ninety five when MCAST came into being,
Speaker 3: and then it was in two thousand and three when
Speaker 3: it was it started that the tenth grade MCAST would
Speaker 3: be used as a graduation requirement for all students in Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: It was about twenty years.
Speaker 3: Yes, for the for the tenth grade requirement.
Speaker 4: Yes, okay, Now.
Speaker 2: If a student does and that's what we're talking about here,
Speaker 2: the these the teacher union, the teachers Union wants to
Speaker 2: eliminate the graduation requirement.
Speaker 4: You see that as.
Speaker 2: A preliminary test, a preliminary step to actually eliminating m
Speaker 2: CAST and the testing comprehensive testing.
Speaker 4: Uh that that goes along with it.
Speaker 2: But we're just focused tonight on eliminating the graduation requirement.
Speaker 4: So that means, again, in your words, what does a.
Speaker 2: Student have to do during the tenth grade or before
Speaker 2: they graduate to be sure that they get an actual
Speaker 2: diploma as opposed to a certificate of completion.
Speaker 3: So so if m CAST goes away, what would they
Speaker 3: have to do then?
Speaker 4: Is no, if it goes if it goes away, it's
Speaker 4: all off off off the books. What what is it required? Now?
Speaker 4: What is it that the teachers unions object to?
Speaker 3: So right now students. Students participate in three or four
Speaker 3: days of testing and they take a test in English
Speaker 3: Language Arts which is known as ELA, Math and Science,
Speaker 3: and so technically they are taking this test in the
Speaker 3: tenth grade, but as our former longtime Dusty commissioner David
Speaker 3: Driscoll once said, they are truly being tested on eighth
Speaker 3: grade standards in the tenth grade. And for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: if a student doesn't pass the test in the tenth grade,
Speaker 3: they have five additional opportunities to take the test while
Speaker 3: they're in the eleventh and twelfth grade. So for the
Speaker 3: very small percentage of students that are not passing in
Speaker 3: the tenth grade, and to be clear, it's about ninety
Speaker 3: six percent, ninety six ninety seven percent of students are
Speaker 3: passing in the tenth grade. But for the small percentage
Speaker 3: of students who don't, they are supposed to be receiving
Speaker 3: additional supports from the educators and their schools in order
Speaker 3: to successfully complete that requirement.
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's play Devil's advocate for a second, and
Speaker 2: that is some people, I assume the Teachers' Union would
Speaker 2: argue that the seven hundred or so students every year
Speaker 2: who graduate without the benefit of having passed the MCAST
Speaker 2: requirements as low as the standard is, they don't receive
Speaker 2: an actual diploma, so they can say that they I
Speaker 2: don't know if technically they can say they.
Speaker 4: Graduated from they can say they completed high school.
Speaker 2: I guess correct, but they can't say they graduated from high.
Speaker 3: School, so they receive a certificate of completion DAN. And
Speaker 3: what's also possible though for students, you know, for students
Speaker 3: who have you know, significant disabilities, whether those disabilities are
Speaker 3: cognitive or physical, there is something called them CAST. All
Speaker 3: so is that is another pathway, But there are opportunities
Speaker 3: for students to apply for waivers. Now that typically involved
Speaker 3: either your teacher or your school principal reaching out to
Speaker 3: the state, to the mass Department of Elementary and Secondary
Speaker 3: Education on your behalf to request a waiver whether you
Speaker 3: have you know, a challenging anxiety problem, whether there's something
Speaker 3: else happening in your life that would necessitate a waiver,
Speaker 3: you know. So there are other opportunities to get a diploma,
Speaker 3: but also to get a waiver around the MCAST requirement.
Speaker 3: And so oftentimes those opportunities are not feazed because I
Speaker 3: think this is something families are often not aware of that,
Speaker 3: but certainly educators are aware of those opportunities.
Speaker 2: Okay, so what taking it? Just playing Devil's advocate resection.
Speaker 2: I understand that it would be great if everybody who
Speaker 2: graduated from high school in Massachusetts, you know, past.
Speaker 4: This bar as low as it is.
Speaker 2: But the fact of the matter is, every year, I
Speaker 2: think is it's seventy fives high school seniors graduate across Massachusetts.
Speaker 3: That about yeah, ive, seventy four thousand.
Speaker 2: Okay, so if it's only seven hundred, that's about one
Speaker 2: percent that at the end of the day do not
Speaker 2: receive a diploma. Now, I'm sure the Teachers' union would argue,
Speaker 2: why stigmatize these students so that they go through life
Speaker 2: and they enter the workforce without benefit of diploma? What
Speaker 2: purpose is served? What is gained for society by that
Speaker 2: stigma being applied to a certain few?
Speaker 3: You know, we want all students to be successful in
Speaker 3: their secondary education, but we also want them to be prepared, Dan,
Speaker 3: and so our argument here is, what are we doing
Speaker 3: to make sure that all of our students are successful.
Speaker 3: There are more than seven hundred students in Massachusetts who
Speaker 3: do not earn a diploma, but there's all so a
Speaker 3: local that's if they haven't met their local requirements. So
Speaker 3: I just want to be clear, it's only seven hundred
Speaker 3: who are not graduating simply because of not meeting the
Speaker 3: MCAST requirements. There are other students, and again these are
Speaker 3: very small percentages, but there are other students who maybe
Speaker 3: didn't meet the attendance requirement, didn't meet the individual course
Speaker 3: requirements for their individual districts. But we believe that every
Speaker 3: child should be graduating from a Massachusetts Massachusetts high school
Speaker 3: prepared for their next step and whether that next step
Speaker 3: is college, career, technical vocation. We want all of our
Speaker 3: students to be prepared, and we know that since we
Speaker 3: do not have Massachusetts is unique in a number of ways,
Speaker 3: and one of those ways in which we are unique
Speaker 3: is we don't have course requirements like other states. Forty
Speaker 3: eight other states have course requirements. Massachusetts doesn't have that.
Speaker 3: We have a recommended set of requirements. And so the
Speaker 3: last thing we want to do DAN is go backward
Speaker 3: back to where we were prior nineteen ninety three, where
Speaker 3: diplomas were essentially meaningless pieces of paper because depending on
Speaker 3: your zip code and depending on what school you went to,
Speaker 3: diploma's meant wildly different things. And so the one consistent
Speaker 3: standard we've had is that tenth grade MCAST requirement, and
Speaker 3: that tells us, it gives us some indication that students
Speaker 3: are prepared for their next step.
Speaker 4: Last question, and then we're going to go to break.
Speaker 2: Are these MCAST tests or prior MCAST tests?
Speaker 4: I assume the test.
Speaker 2: Gets changed every year, even the subject matter is the same,
Speaker 2: the curriculum that's covered is the same.
Speaker 4: Are any of the past.
Speaker 2: MCAST tests available for the public to see and review?
Speaker 2: I mean, you and I both I think understand that
Speaker 2: these are not challenging tests. These are not college admissions tests.
Speaker 4: They're at an a grade level.
Speaker 2: But are these tests available for voters to see?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm fairly certain they are. And I can follow
Speaker 3: up with that with you because I know that I
Speaker 3: believe prior year's tests are available because they aren't changed.
Speaker 3: And what's also important to note, Dan, is that these
Speaker 3: questions are created by Massachusetts teachers, and so you know
Speaker 3: this is very much a collaborative process and it's educators
Speaker 3: who actually put these questions together for the students.
Speaker 2: All right, well, let's take a break. My guest is
Speaker 2: Mary Tamer. She's the executive director of the Democrats for
Speaker 2: Education Reform in Massachusetts. They are on the negative side
Speaker 2: of question ballot question number two. We will reach out
Speaker 2: to the Teachers Union and have someone come on from
Speaker 2: the teachers Union. At some point, it is the mass
Speaker 2: Teachers Association, I believe who is really the group that
Speaker 2: is pushing the elimination of the MCAST requirement. This is
Speaker 2: not the elimination of the testing and the third and
Speaker 2: I think the eighth and the tenth grade. But this
Speaker 2: is just the requirement that you pass an MCAST test
Speaker 2: in your tenth grade or later in order to be
Speaker 2: eligible to receive a diploma upon graduation. If you'd like
Speaker 2: to join the conversation, if you're a teacher, or you're
Speaker 2: a parent and you feel that these requirements are very important,
Speaker 2: or if you feel that they stigmatize people, we can
Speaker 2: have a pleasant conversation. We don't have to be insulting.
Speaker 2: Six one, seven, two, five, four to ten thirty or
Speaker 2: six one, seven, nine, three one ten thirty gets you
Speaker 2: on Night's side. My name is Dan Ray. My guess
Speaker 2: Mary Taymor. She ran in for city council in Boston.
Speaker 2: Very active. I believe at one point you were active
Speaker 2: with the League of Women Voters. If I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 2: you have an active record involved. You're the past president
Speaker 2: of the League of Women Voters in Boston as a
Speaker 2: matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, and a former
Speaker 2: Boston school person. Yep, absolutely, Okay. Mary Tamer's my guest
Speaker 2: coming back on nights.
Speaker 1: Now, back to Dan ray Line from the Window World
Speaker 1: night Side Studios on w b Z, the news Radio.
Speaker 4: My guess is Mary Tamer.
Speaker 2: She is the executive director of Democrats for Education Reform
Speaker 2: in Massachusetts, a former candidate UH in Boston for City Council.
Speaker 4: She's also served on.
Speaker 2: Legal Women Voters UH, and she is on the other
Speaker 2: side of the issue from the teachers unions. There's more
Speaker 2: than one teachers union in Massachusetts.
Speaker 4: Is the teachers is it?
Speaker 2: The Is the m t A the driving force behind
Speaker 2: this this ballot initiative, Mary.
Speaker 3: They are, But the a f T or the American
Speaker 3: Federation of Teachers in Massachusetts has also been supportive of
Speaker 3: the m t a's efforts. But it is the m
Speaker 3: t A who who filed the question.
Speaker 2: Yes, okay, Now, they had to get a lot of
Speaker 2: signatures to file to get on the ballot, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: What if the a concern with it, I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: be as charitable as you can, but are they is
Speaker 2: this something that they look at as onerous on them
Speaker 2: or unfair to the students.
Speaker 4: How would they characterize.
Speaker 3: Ye, No, it's a great question, Dan. I mean one
Speaker 3: of the things that that is said repeatedly is that
Speaker 3: teachers that some teachers feel that they are teaching to
Speaker 3: the test, you know, and that and if that were true,
Speaker 3: then all of our children would be, you know, just
Speaker 3: taking English, math and science all day, which isn't the case.
Speaker 3: You know, my boys both went through the Boston Public schools,
Speaker 3: as I know, you and I both did as well,
Speaker 3: and you know we weren't only subjected to English, math
Speaker 3: and science, and thank heavens for that. So what teachers
Speaker 3: are supposed to be doing is in fact, teaching to standards,
Speaker 3: and then MCAST is testing students on the standards that
Speaker 3: they've been taught in the classroom. And so, you know,
Speaker 3: I understand that it's a disruption in the schedule, you know,
Speaker 3: when you have the four days of testing in March,
Speaker 3: but it really is essential for us to see what
Speaker 3: the data is telling us. I mean, it's the greatest
Speaker 3: gage we have to know exactly how students are doing,
Speaker 3: especially at a time. And it was just this really
Speaker 3: interesting report that had just come out of Brown University
Speaker 3: at the Annenberg Institute about rising great inflation ever since
Speaker 3: the pandemic. You know, despite the fact that all you
Speaker 3: see in the news is about the chronic apps and
Speaker 3: teeism and how much school students are missing. But at
Speaker 3: the same time we're having chronic apps andeeism, We've have
Speaker 3: more straight A students than we've had in decades, yet
Speaker 3: the test scores are not reflecting all a performance in
Speaker 3: class and so there's huge disconnects in terms of what
Speaker 3: we're seeing in grades are you know, grades are subjective
Speaker 3: and we need That's the thing about standardized testing. It
Speaker 3: gives us an objective measure of how individual students are doing,
Speaker 3: how classes are doing, and how different. You know, we
Speaker 3: want to know how low income students are doing. We
Speaker 3: want to know how our English learners, students with disabilities,
Speaker 3: students of color are doing across all of our schools,
Speaker 3: all of our districts. And that's what mcass and standardized
Speaker 3: testing gives us.
Speaker 2: Well, it's it's an interesting topic. We're going to go
Speaker 2: to phone calls, my guest and Carrie Tamer again. Whether
Speaker 2: you agree to disagree, we will have a polite conversation tonight.
Speaker 2: This will be ballid question number two on the Massachusetts
Speaker 2: November ballot, not on the primary ballot, but the November ballot. Robert,
Speaker 2: and you're going to start us off tonight, Robert, your
Speaker 2: first tonight on Night's side.
Speaker 4: You called in first. You're up, Robert, Coret ahead.
Speaker 5: Oh, good evening, Jannon, good evening. To your guest, Mary Tamer.
Speaker 5: I was wondering if if a New York Regions Exam
Speaker 5: still exist, and was MCS an effort to imitate the
Speaker 5: New York reationis exam.
Speaker 3: Ooh, that's a great question. So the regents, I know
Speaker 3: there was a measure to also take away the Regent's
Speaker 3: exam and make it it might be it might be
Speaker 3: an optional exam at this point. See what we've seen
Speaker 3: in other states, and it's really fascinating is different states
Speaker 3: offer different levels of diploma. And even in Indiana they
Speaker 3: have something called core forty and you could be core forty,
Speaker 3: core forty plus core forty with honors, and they literally
Speaker 3: have I think eight different versions of diplomas depending on
Speaker 3: the courses you took, what tests you passed didn't pass.
Speaker 3: In Massachusetts, we've been so fortunate to have this one,
Speaker 3: you know, consistent standard. And I spoke with some folks
Speaker 3: of an education organization in Indiana, and when I told
Speaker 3: them about the ballot question we were facing, their response was, oh,
Speaker 3: my gosh, why would you change anything in Massachusetts? We
Speaker 3: all look to you as the gold standard. And so
Speaker 3: that's one of the questions, you know, we're kind of
Speaker 3: asking ourselves as well, because if you're going to change something,
Speaker 3: and no test is perfect. To be clear, we MCSIE
Speaker 3: is considered to be one of the better of the
Speaker 3: standardized assessments here in the United States. But if you're
Speaker 3: going to make a significant change, why not do it
Speaker 3: through a carefully deliberated process where we're looking at what
Speaker 3: are other states doing? Is someone doing something better than
Speaker 3: we are? And also what is the high standard we
Speaker 3: want to hold all of our students too, because when
Speaker 3: you look at that we don't have required courses in Massachusetts.
Speaker 3: The question we need to ask ourselves is do we
Speaker 3: want three hundred and you know, three hundred and fifty
Speaker 3: plus different versions of a diploma depending on what high
Speaker 3: school you went to. Or do we want to know
Speaker 3: that if you have a Massachusetts diploma that it actually
Speaker 3: means something because we know we've done We've looked at
Speaker 3: every district in Massachusetts, and we know some high schools
Speaker 3: have four or five course requirements for graduation and some
Speaker 3: high schools have fifteen to twenty. So there is great
Speaker 3: disparities in terms of what is required of students. And
Speaker 3: so if we leave this to local control, you're not
Speaker 3: going to have any consistent standard whatsoever. And in fact,
Speaker 3: Massachusetts would be left with a lower graduation standard than
Speaker 3: states like Alabama and Mississippi.
Speaker 5: Could I ask, would in your opinion, do you think
Speaker 5: the solar system is a basic is a basic fact
Speaker 5: that our high school students should have in their possession?
Speaker 5: And do you think that a standardized test like some
Speaker 5: form standardized test like AMCAST system of testing should have
Speaker 5: shared that knowledge like that is in the possession of
Speaker 5: our high school graduate.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if I would speak to
Speaker 3: the solar system specifically, but I think that again, I
Speaker 3: think having a science requirement, a tenth grade science requirement,
Speaker 3: is an essential part of what we would want to
Speaker 3: see from every Massachusetts graduate. And so and again, whatever
Speaker 3: the standards are for tenth grade science like that is
Speaker 3: what that is, exactly what students are being tested on.
Speaker 3: It's the standards that they are supposed to learn prior
Speaker 3: to graduation. So I believe in all of the three requirements,
Speaker 3: which are ELA maths and the science requirements.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you for answer, good questions, appreciate it, Thank
Speaker 5: you very much.
Speaker 4: We'll keep rolling right after the news.
Speaker 2: Here we get one open line of six one seven, two,
Speaker 2: five forward ten thirty and couple at six one seven,
Speaker 2: nine three one ten thirty. I'm looking at it eighth
Speaker 2: grade test here, and it's pretty challenging. To be really
Speaker 2: honest with you, Mary, I have no idea some of
Speaker 2: these questions. Now again I haven't studied tenth grade mathematics
Speaker 2: in a while. But some of them are understandable, some
Speaker 2: of them are pretty tough. This is not an, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, a really easy test. Maybe maybe what's important.
Speaker 3: It's important to note though, to Dan, there's four different
Speaker 3: levels right when it comes to how MCAST is scored,
Speaker 3: and so there's not meeting expectations partially meeting expectations, meeting
Speaker 3: expectations and then exceeding expectations in terms of the requirement.
Speaker 3: We are asking students to hit the partially meeting expectations.
Speaker 6: So yes, Okay, my.
Speaker 2: Guess is Mary Tamer exacutly a director of Democrats of Education,
Speaker 2: a former Massachusetts talking about the MCST requirement for graduation,
Speaker 2: not talking about the MCAST testing that occurs at third, eighth,
Speaker 2: and tenth grade level. We're talking about the tenth grade
Speaker 2: test requirement for graduation. When she's being challenged in a
Speaker 2: valid question BALLID question number two and this year's Massachusetts
Speaker 2: ballot questions, the opposition to MCAST graduation requirement. Passing MCAST
Speaker 2: as a graduation requirement or doing adequately in order to
Speaker 2: secure a diploma as opposed to a certificate of completion
Speaker 2: is being really pushed at this point by the teachers'
Speaker 2: unions here in Massachusetts. Back on Nightside More with Mary Tamer.
Speaker 1: Right after this, it's Nightside with Dan Ray on Boston's
Speaker 1: news radio.
Speaker 2: Okay, let me go to Judith in Mansfield. Judith, as
Speaker 2: you know, my guest is Mary tam Or. She's with
Speaker 2: Democrats for Education Reform in Massachusetts and we're talking about
Speaker 2: the MCST tenth grade graduation requirement.
Speaker 6: Go right ahead, Judith, Hey, yeah, thanks.
Speaker 7: Dan, and hello Mary. I got a flyer on my
Speaker 7: stoop and it says the ballot question will rep heel
Speaker 7: and replace the current statewide standard, so we'll still have
Speaker 7: statewide standards. So why keep the test?
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for that question, Jude. So the truth
Speaker 3: is there is no replacement. I think it's really important
Speaker 3: to be clear that if MCAST goes away as our
Speaker 3: sole graduation requirement in Massachusetts, there is no replacement for that,
Speaker 3: and as I mentioned in the last segment, that we
Speaker 3: will be left not only with it is essentially a
Speaker 3: lowering of the standards that we currently have for all
Speaker 3: of our high school students, but because we do not
Speaker 3: have required curricular standards, we do not have required courses.
Speaker 3: A diploma will mean so many different things depending on
Speaker 3: what district you happen to send your child to. So
Speaker 3: that really is our greatest concern is that we want
Speaker 3: to maintain high standards in Massachusetts. We want to make
Speaker 3: sure that the children who were being left behind back
Speaker 3: before the passage of the Education Reform Act of nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety three that we're not leaving kids behind anymore, and
Speaker 3: we know that we still are, and there is absolutely
Speaker 3: more work to do here in Massachusetts, but this is
Speaker 3: a step in the wrong direction. We do not want
Speaker 3: to go backward. We need our schools, our districts, and
Speaker 3: our students to move forward and to be well prepared
Speaker 3: for working in the global economy that we find ourselves in.
Speaker 7: And I mean it looks like even if even if
Speaker 7: we're heaping the standards, then we're throwing out the test.
Speaker 7: I mean, why keep the test if we're we still
Speaker 7: have these standards.
Speaker 3: Well, because so I don't want us to conflate standards
Speaker 3: and courses, and so we do have standards, but what
Speaker 3: we don't have is required courses. And so you have districts,
Speaker 3: for example, that meet mass course standards, which means the
Speaker 3: student and is getting four years of English, four years
Speaker 3: of math, three years of science, one or two years
Speaker 3: of language. But then you have districts that are not
Speaker 3: coming close to that at all. And so the question
Speaker 3: is where would you want your child to go? Because
Speaker 3: if your child doesn't even have access to the courses
Speaker 3: that they need, whether they want to go to college,
Speaker 3: whether they want to pursue a technical career. The bottom
Speaker 3: line is, I think we all want our children to
Speaker 3: be well prepared for whatever that next step is, and
Speaker 3: I think that is what MCAST gives us, a measure
Speaker 3: of assurance, a guarantee that standards have not only been
Speaker 3: that the child has actually learned the standards that they
Speaker 3: were being.
Speaker 6: Taught in the classroom.
Speaker 3: Without that test, how would we know if those standards
Speaker 3: have actually been met?
Speaker 2: Judith, what's your thought on this? You're asking some pretty
Speaker 2: good questions. Do you have a are are.
Speaker 4: You leaning one way or the other?
Speaker 7: I mean, I didn't realize that it's not being replaced.
Speaker 7: I was under the impression that there was going to
Speaker 7: be a replacement, So I think you know, I was
Speaker 7: leaning against or to vote yet, but I'm now leaning
Speaker 7: towards no, because if it's not getting replaced, I mean,
Speaker 7: it's scary to me.
Speaker 2: Well, you've asked great questions, and I think you've got
Speaker 2: direct the answers from Mary. Anything else in your mind, Nope,
Speaker 2: thank you so much, Thank you, Judith, appreciate you.
Speaker 3: Thank you Judith, And honestly, Dan Judith raises, I think
Speaker 3: an excellent point because with what the the literature that
Speaker 3: the MTA sharing literally says replace the m CAST. But
Speaker 3: the truth is there is no replacement. And so that
Speaker 3: goes back to something I said earlier about, you know,
Speaker 3: if we want to have a conversation about what is
Speaker 3: it that we want all of our students to graduate
Speaker 3: having met, how do we what is the best way
Speaker 3: for us to determine, you know, what those factors are
Speaker 3: and what high school diploma should truly mean in Massachusetts.
Speaker 3: Let's have that conversation as adults. But to put something
Speaker 3: on the ballot ballid questions, frankly, are a terrible waste
Speaker 3: of money and they're a terrible way to legislate. And
Speaker 3: so for the MTA to be spending whatever, you know,
Speaker 3: twenty thirty million dollars on a ballot question, how about
Speaker 3: helping those seven hundred kids who aren't passing MCAST, Like,
Speaker 3: how about we put some resources toward helping this less
Speaker 3: than one percent of students who really just need extra
Speaker 3: support to cross that finish line. That to me would
Speaker 3: be a better use of resources here I tend to.
Speaker 4: Agree with you.
Speaker 2: Let me go next to Steve in Stephen in Cambridge. Steve,
Speaker 2: you were next on Nightside.
Speaker 8: Well, Hey, Mary, Hi, Mary, do you think one factor
Speaker 8: in removing the MCAST or proponents to have is that
Speaker 8: it distracts from their teaching of things like critical race
Speaker 8: theory and sexual identity fluidity. That the MCS interferes with
Speaker 8: that because they have a standard of things they have
Speaker 8: to learn, and that interferes with teaching these things that
Speaker 8: I mentioned.
Speaker 3: Honestly, I don't believe that's the case. You know in
Speaker 3: Massachusetts schools to min no, I do not know of
Speaker 3: any high schools in Massachusetts who are teaching courses.
Speaker 9: Like that.
Speaker 3: So I think, honestly, what we have seen through these
Speaker 3: last several years is that the scores have continued to
Speaker 3: go down. And there's no question that the decreasing scores
Speaker 3: were exacerbated by the pandemic and you know, time out
Speaker 3: of school for students disrupted learning time. But those schoolers
Speaker 3: were going down, whether it was NAPE, which is a
Speaker 3: national assessment, or MCAST, which is our annual standardized assessment
Speaker 3: here in Massachusetts, we've seen scores going down. And I
Speaker 3: think the distraction factor, frankly is people don't like looking
Speaker 3: at this data because it's really hard when you see
Speaker 3: that only forty two percent of third graders are reading
Speaker 3: proficiently in Massachusetts. In Boston, it's only twenty nine percent
Speaker 3: of third graders are reading proficiently. That's these are really
Speaker 3: hard things to wrestle with and acknowledge and try to solve.
Speaker 3: And so I think, you know, one of the expressions
Speaker 3: we use is don't break the mirror because you don't
Speaker 3: like what it's reflecting. I think right now the MTA
Speaker 3: wants to break the mirror because the data are reflecting
Speaker 3: some really hard truths about what students are not getting
Speaker 3: in our schools, and there's a lot of work to
Speaker 3: do to turn that situation around.
Speaker 8: Well, just to pursue that a little bit, Mary, a
Speaker 8: lot of people who noticed what their kids are being
Speaker 8: taught during the pandemic because they were being taught online.
Speaker 8: A lot of parents saw that and they objected to
Speaker 8: matters of what I just mentioned, critical race theory, sexual
Speaker 8: identity fluidity, and so are you telling me those things
Speaker 8: aren't being taught that what a lot of parents saw
Speaker 8: was exaggerated. I mean, because that would definitely result in
Speaker 8: lower test courses if that's what the kids are learning
Speaker 8: rather than mathematics and history.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say this. We have a lot of
Speaker 3: schools in Massachusetts, you know, thousands of schools, so it
Speaker 3: would be hard for me to know what was happening
Speaker 3: during remote learning and individual schools. I certainly have friends
Speaker 3: and relatives whose children were in school during remote learning,
Speaker 3: and I heard stories from them about frankly, you know,
Speaker 3: not enough time with actual lessons just because you know,
Speaker 3: a six and a half hour school day became a
Speaker 3: two hour school day for example. I haven't heard any
Speaker 3: specifics from the folks I know about the topics that
Speaker 3: you mentioned, but I do think that the lack of
Speaker 3: sort of that six and a half hour schools they
Speaker 3: becoming a two or three hour school day. There's no
Speaker 3: question that students were not getting the adequate learning time
Speaker 3: they needed to be doing work on grade level. And
Speaker 3: I think we are still seeing the repercussions of that
Speaker 3: time out of school.
Speaker 8: And can I asked Mary one more question?
Speaker 4: Yea one more quick one goes I'm a little past
Speaker 4: my break.
Speaker 8: Mary. Then why do you think the m cash scores
Speaker 8: were going down before the pandemic?
Speaker 3: Well, there's I'm glad you asked that question. You know,
Speaker 3: with reading specifically, Massachusetts as a state, we are not
Speaker 3: following not all of our districts are using research and
Speaker 3: evidence based, which is the way you're supposed to teach
Speaker 3: children how to read with phonemic awareness, and the way
Speaker 3: that I learned how to read many many years ago,
Speaker 3: probably the way Dan learned how to read as well.
Speaker 3: And so I think that whether it's our our English
Speaker 3: and reading instruction or our math instruction, I think that
Speaker 3: we are falling behind from following research and evidence on
Speaker 3: how children learn how to read, learn how to do math.
Speaker 3: And we have a lot of work to do in
Speaker 3: that area. It is a real when I say that
Speaker 3: only forty two percent of third graders are reading in Massachusetts,
Speaker 3: that is a real problem for us.
Speaker 8: Thank you both very much. Mary, you're an excellent spokeswoman.
Speaker 5: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 4: Appreciate you. Call back at Nightside right after this very
Speaker 4: quick break.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 1: Nightside Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: I have three calls waiting. I'd like to accommodate all three.
Speaker 2: We'll set the standard forll me. Please, you're an experienced caller,
Speaker 2: go ahead.
Speaker 6: Will okay? So Mary, I must say Dan, I love
Speaker 6: her as a call I mean as a guest, and
Speaker 6: I will say when I first heard you say Democrats
Speaker 6: for education reform. I said, oh, man, here we go.
Speaker 6: Because democrats the idea.
Speaker 10: From where I'm from, education reform is to throw away
Speaker 10: all standardized testing, completely degrade education, and have a bunch
Speaker 10: of brainwashed left wing automatons.
Speaker 6: Because I'm from New York and I have seen what
Speaker 6: happens when we start to take away standards testing. Like
Speaker 6: when the woman asked before, well, if we have the standards,
Speaker 6: why do we need to test you guys are very kind,
Speaker 6: but simply you need the test so that we know
Speaker 6: if we need the standards. It's that simple. And the
Speaker 6: standards that you have seen, the bar seems to be
Speaker 6: very low. Okay, as a matter of fact, what's the
Speaker 6: purpose of unions really at the end of the day
Speaker 6: to make sure that their members do the least amount
Speaker 6: of work and get paid the most for it. So
Speaker 6: now they're seeing the these numbers.
Speaker 4: Of people probably would disagree with that.
Speaker 6: Characters I'm from, I get it, but you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I get it. I get it too.
Speaker 2: And people, I'm pushing you a little bit here because
Speaker 2: I got two people behind you.
Speaker 6: Go ahead, I gotcha, But I'm telling you, you know
Speaker 6: what I think that Mary's trying to say. And unfortunately
Speaker 6: you got to watch out about what you're saying, Mary,
Speaker 6: because they might start calling you a conservative ooo or
Speaker 6: something like that. All right, but this is common sense
Speaker 6: democrat speaking right here, that we need people to be
Speaker 6: able to achieve certain standards and have education in this country.
Speaker 6: Go forward. I remember when progress went moving forward, not backwards.
Speaker 6: Thank you for being to Mary.
Speaker 4: Great call, great call. What are your best? Let me
Speaker 4: go next, Betty in the bout Betty, you gotta.
Speaker 5: Be quick for me, Okay, Dan, I will be quick.
Speaker 11: I'm very conflicted on this. I do not believe in
Speaker 11: that teachers are teaching to the students. They're teaching to
Speaker 11: the test. I'm a product of the period of time
Speaker 11: when there was no es L and my native tongue
Speaker 11: is German and I did not know how to read
Speaker 11: until I was two years old, and it impacted my
Speaker 11: life tremendously.
Speaker 4: You didn't know how to read until you said you were.
Speaker 5: Two thirty two.
Speaker 4: Oh thirty two.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry because I was saying, Jesus, if you knew
Speaker 2: how to read when you were too, that's pretty darn good.
Speaker 11: Great.
Speaker 5: No, my native tongue is German.
Speaker 4: Okay, no, I get it. You didn't.
Speaker 2: You didn't know how to read in English until you
Speaker 2: were until you're thirty two, Okay.
Speaker 11: Nor, I wasn't taught in German either.
Speaker 10: I was.
Speaker 11: I remember sitting on my aunt Dania's lap and she
Speaker 11: would read the comments to me on Sunday. But they're
Speaker 11: not teaching to the students. That teaching to the test.
Speaker 11: And that gives me great pause.
Speaker 2: Okay, let me get a quick, very quick comment from Mary,
Speaker 2: and then I got to get one other person and
Speaker 2: go ahead and marry quick comment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I would say again, my own children went
Speaker 3: through the Boston public schools, and I am very involved
Speaker 3: in the lives of family and friends whose children are
Speaker 3: in schools, and I just have to respectfully disagree that
Speaker 3: children are being taught lots of different things. They are
Speaker 3: being taught to the standards, and then they're being tested
Speaker 3: on those standards. But they the teaching to the test
Speaker 3: all day. Unfortunately, I think it is a talking point
Speaker 3: of the MTA that has stuck. It's easy to remember,
Speaker 3: but that has not been the experience of my children
Speaker 3: or the other children in my life.
Speaker 4: Betty. I got to get one more in here. In fairness,
Speaker 4: but thank you.
Speaker 2: I want you to call more often, Betty, and call
Speaker 2: earlier in the program because you were one of my
Speaker 2: most interesting callers.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry to short change you. Yeah, thanks Betty, talk
Speaker 4: to you soon. Robin and Hingham. You got about a minute, Robert,
Speaker 4: you're the last call of the hour.
Speaker 9: Go right ahead, I'll go quick. Thanks Dan Marias. What
Speaker 9: happens if a student right now does not pass the
Speaker 9: ENCAST in tenth.
Speaker 3: Grade, so they get five additional chances to take the
Speaker 3: test between eleventh and twelfth grade and again, and it
Speaker 3: is the school that is supposed to be giving that
Speaker 3: child additional support so that they actually can pass the test.
Speaker 9: So if this question passes and there's no measurements, like,
Speaker 9: are the students still going to get that extra help
Speaker 9: or or is that just going to go away?
Speaker 3: That's a really good question. I don't know. I think
Speaker 3: that's the thing, is that because the ballot question it's
Speaker 3: you know, it's just there's not a lot of detail there, right,
Speaker 3: it's just eliminating the test itself, and so we honestly
Speaker 3: don't know what it will lead to other than taking
Speaker 3: away the only graduation requirement we have in Massachusetts, which
Speaker 3: we believe will be harmful to kids and set us
Speaker 3: back thirty years in terms of the standards, the high
Speaker 3: standards we've set here in Massachusetts, Robert, we.
Speaker 2: Will have We'll have more more discussions on this, I promise.
Speaker 2: And I hate to cut you short because you've asked
Speaker 2: a great question, but.
Speaker 4: I'm flat out of time.
Speaker 2: Mary, is there how can folks get in touch with
Speaker 2: your organization and your group if they want to support
Speaker 2: you or have other questions.
Speaker 3: Sure, we have a website where people can sign up.
Speaker 3: It's no on question two dot org. And so people
Speaker 3: can reach out, they can sign up, they can reach
Speaker 3: out to me at Mary at d F E R
Speaker 3: dot org. Happy to answer any questions that people might
Speaker 3: have and happy to talk about this. And I do
Speaker 3: want to say we have teachers that are standing with
Speaker 3: us on this. And I know one of the prior
Speaker 3: callers made a statement about teachers, but we have teachers
Speaker 3: who agree with us. I don't want there. You know,
Speaker 3: it's not pronoun that everyone thinks the same way, Mary
Speaker 3: Rolland we'll do.
Speaker 4: More on this, I promise, and we'll have you back.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Thank you, Dan, You're very welcome.
Speaker 2: We come back right after the ten o'clock news, and
Speaker 2: we're going to talk about the Democratic Convention, which is
Speaker 2: now well underway in Chicago.