WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.520 --> 00:00:06.839 It's a nice side with Dan Ray w b Z Radio. 2 00:00:07.519 --> 00:00:10.359 Well, we are about to enter into the political season, 3 00:00:10.359 --> 00:00:13.439 which course everybody thinks about politics, and you think about 4 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:18.280 the presidential election. And tonight the Democrats are beginning their 5 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:20.679 four day convention in Chicago. We'll talk about that a 6 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:22.839 little bit later on, but there will be some ballot 7 00:00:22.920 --> 00:00:25.800 questions here in Massachusetts. We're going to deal what with 8 00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:30.000 and one of the high profile ballot question we'll be 9 00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:36.039 dealing with the MCST graduation requirement question two, the elimination 10 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:40.679 of mcast as a high school graduation requirement in Massachusetts 11 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:45.359 with us is Mary Tamer. Mary is a former member 12 00:00:45.439 --> 00:00:49.719 of the Boston School Committee. She ran for state representative. 13 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:55.320 She is the executive director of a group here in Massachusetts. 14 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:58.159 And I want to make sure Mary that I get 15 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:02.679 the name exactly core of the group. I don't want 16 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:04.599 to mess it up here, so let me get it 17 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:07.519 right here, or you can tell us it's the Massachusetts 18 00:01:07.560 --> 00:01:09.640 Democrats for Education Reform. 19 00:01:09.680 --> 00:01:13.560 Correct, correct, Yes, And I ran for city council in Boston. 20 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:17.599 Dan, that's said representative. I apologize that. 21 00:01:16.599 --> 00:01:22.000 You absolutely absolutely, So first of all, let's start it off. 22 00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.879 There's a lot of people who know exactly what MCASS is. 23 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:28.040 But give us the history of MCASS. It was an 24 00:01:28.200 --> 00:01:33.799 education reform that began in the mid nineteen nineties with 25 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:38.200 bipartisan support on Beacon Hill, not only the Democratic leadership, 26 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:40.719 the Senate President of the time was Tom Birmingham and 27 00:01:40.959 --> 00:01:44.079 Governor Bill Weld, and they worked on this very hard, 28 00:01:44.159 --> 00:01:47.719 and so it's been in existence now for almost thirty years. 29 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:50.319 Tell us what it is, what it does, and what 30 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:54.359 it means, and just sure as a foundation for our conversation. 31 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:56.799 Well, thanks for having me on, Dan. This is a 32 00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:00.840 really important topic for us, and you know, I think 33 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:05.799 for families across Massachusetts. But MCAST was, you know, one 34 00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:08.759 of the things that ultimately came out of the nineteen 35 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:12.520 ninety three Education Reform Act of Massachusetts. So that brought 36 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:16.439 us charter schools, for example, it brought us a new 37 00:02:16.680 --> 00:02:20.039 way that the Chapter seventy funding formula for all of 38 00:02:20.080 --> 00:02:24.360 Massachusetts schools. And it also paved the way for a 39 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.319 new system of standards and accountability for our schools in Massachusetts. 40 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:33.400 And so MCAST itself, or our annual Assessment didn't come 41 00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:36.479 into being for a few years later. I think it 42 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:40.800 was right around ninety five when MCAST came into being, 43 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:43.960 and then it was in two thousand and three when 44 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:48.639 it was it started that the tenth grade MCAST would 45 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:52.759 be used as a graduation requirement for all students in Massachusetts. 46 00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:55.599 It was about twenty years. 47 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:56.919 Yes, for the for the tenth grade requirement. 48 00:02:57.039 --> 00:02:58.479 Yes, okay, Now. 49 00:02:59.360 --> 00:03:02.879 If a student does and that's what we're talking about here, 50 00:03:02.759 --> 00:03:06.879 the these the teacher union, the teachers Union wants to 51 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:09.080 eliminate the graduation requirement. 52 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:10.479 You see that as. 53 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:14.719 A preliminary test, a preliminary step to actually eliminating m 54 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:18.240 CAST and the testing comprehensive testing. 55 00:03:18.479 --> 00:03:20.520 Uh that that goes along with it. 56 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:25.080 But we're just focused tonight on eliminating the graduation requirement. 57 00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:28.280 So that means, again, in your words, what does a. 58 00:03:28.199 --> 00:03:32.759 Student have to do during the tenth grade or before 59 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:36.120 they graduate to be sure that they get an actual 60 00:03:36.199 --> 00:03:39.439 diploma as opposed to a certificate of completion. 61 00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:43.319 So so if m CAST goes away, what would they 62 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:43.919 have to do then? 63 00:03:44.000 --> 00:03:46.000 Is no, if it goes if it goes away, it's 64 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:49.719 all off off off the books. What what is it required? Now? 65 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:52.919 What is it that the teachers unions object to? 66 00:03:53.960 --> 00:03:59.120 So right now students. Students participate in three or four 67 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:02.960 days of testing and they take a test in English 68 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:07.240 Language Arts which is known as ELA, Math and Science, 69 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:11.280 and so technically they are taking this test in the 70 00:04:11.360 --> 00:04:16.079 tenth grade, but as our former longtime Dusty commissioner David 71 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.199 Driscoll once said, they are truly being tested on eighth 72 00:04:19.199 --> 00:04:22.720 grade standards in the tenth grade. And for whatever reason, 73 00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:26.079 if a student doesn't pass the test in the tenth grade, 74 00:04:26.560 --> 00:04:31.879 they have five additional opportunities to take the test while 75 00:04:31.879 --> 00:04:34.319 they're in the eleventh and twelfth grade. So for the 76 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:37.720 very small percentage of students that are not passing in 77 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:39.879 the tenth grade, and to be clear, it's about ninety 78 00:04:39.920 --> 00:04:43.360 six percent, ninety six ninety seven percent of students are 79 00:04:43.439 --> 00:04:46.199 passing in the tenth grade. But for the small percentage 80 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.600 of students who don't, they are supposed to be receiving 81 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:53.680 additional supports from the educators and their schools in order 82 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:56.439 to successfully complete that requirement. 83 00:04:56.800 --> 00:05:00.959 Okay, So let's play Devil's advocate for a second, and 84 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:05.079 that is some people, I assume the Teachers' Union would 85 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:09.160 argue that the seven hundred or so students every year 86 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:14.800 who graduate without the benefit of having passed the MCAST 87 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:19.120 requirements as low as the standard is, they don't receive 88 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:23.079 an actual diploma, so they can say that they I 89 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:25.079 don't know if technically they can say they. 90 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:27.480 Graduated from they can say they completed high school. 91 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.360 I guess correct, but they can't say they graduated from high. 92 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:35.920 School, so they receive a certificate of completion DAN. And 93 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:40.720 what's also possible though for students, you know, for students 94 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:45.720 who have you know, significant disabilities, whether those disabilities are 95 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:49.279 cognitive or physical, there is something called them CAST. All 96 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:54.399 so is that is another pathway, But there are opportunities 97 00:05:54.439 --> 00:05:57.920 for students to apply for waivers. Now that typically involved 98 00:05:57.959 --> 00:06:01.519 either your teacher or your school principal reaching out to 99 00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:04.800 the state, to the mass Department of Elementary and Secondary 100 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.480 Education on your behalf to request a waiver whether you 101 00:06:08.759 --> 00:06:12.839 have you know, a challenging anxiety problem, whether there's something 102 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:17.560 else happening in your life that would necessitate a waiver, 103 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:23.879 you know. So there are other opportunities to get a diploma, 104 00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:30.240 but also to get a waiver around the MCAST requirement. 105 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:34.199 And so oftentimes those opportunities are not feazed because I 106 00:06:34.199 --> 00:06:37.240 think this is something families are often not aware of that, 107 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:40.160 but certainly educators are aware of those opportunities. 108 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:44.879 Okay, so what taking it? Just playing Devil's advocate resection. 109 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:49.040 I understand that it would be great if everybody who 110 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:53.720 graduated from high school in Massachusetts, you know, past. 111 00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:55.160 This bar as low as it is. 112 00:06:56.199 --> 00:06:58.639 But the fact of the matter is, every year, I 113 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:03.759 think is it's seventy fives high school seniors graduate across Massachusetts. 114 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:06.439 That about yeah, ive, seventy four thousand. 115 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:10.079 Okay, so if it's only seven hundred, that's about one 116 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:14.560 percent that at the end of the day do not 117 00:07:14.759 --> 00:07:20.120 receive a diploma. Now, I'm sure the Teachers' union would argue, 118 00:07:20.519 --> 00:07:25.199 why stigmatize these students so that they go through life 119 00:07:25.240 --> 00:07:29.480 and they enter the workforce without benefit of diploma? What 120 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:33.399 purpose is served? What is gained for society by that 121 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:36.600 stigma being applied to a certain few? 122 00:07:38.040 --> 00:07:42.319 You know, we want all students to be successful in 123 00:07:42.959 --> 00:07:47.160 their secondary education, but we also want them to be prepared, Dan, 124 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:51.600 and so our argument here is, what are we doing 125 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:54.639 to make sure that all of our students are successful. 126 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:58.240 There are more than seven hundred students in Massachusetts who 127 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:00.240 do not earn a diploma, but there's all so a 128 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.639 local that's if they haven't met their local requirements. So 129 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:05.839 I just want to be clear, it's only seven hundred 130 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:09.480 who are not graduating simply because of not meeting the 131 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:12.879 MCAST requirements. There are other students, and again these are 132 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:15.800 very small percentages, but there are other students who maybe 133 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:19.160 didn't meet the attendance requirement, didn't meet the individual course 134 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:24.360 requirements for their individual districts. But we believe that every 135 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:28.639 child should be graduating from a Massachusetts Massachusetts high school 136 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.319 prepared for their next step and whether that next step 137 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:36.679 is college, career, technical vocation. We want all of our 138 00:08:36.720 --> 00:08:39.960 students to be prepared, and we know that since we 139 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:43.559 do not have Massachusetts is unique in a number of ways, 140 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:45.559 and one of those ways in which we are unique 141 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:49.559 is we don't have course requirements like other states. Forty 142 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:54.080 eight other states have course requirements. Massachusetts doesn't have that. 143 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.960 We have a recommended set of requirements. And so the 144 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:59.480 last thing we want to do DAN is go backward 145 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:02.919 back to where we were prior nineteen ninety three, where 146 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:08.200 diplomas were essentially meaningless pieces of paper because depending on 147 00:09:08.240 --> 00:09:10.759 your zip code and depending on what school you went to, 148 00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:17.320 diploma's meant wildly different things. And so the one consistent 149 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:20.879 standard we've had is that tenth grade MCAST requirement, and 150 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:24.360 that tells us, it gives us some indication that students 151 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:25.840 are prepared for their next step. 152 00:09:27.320 --> 00:09:29.000 Last question, and then we're going to go to break. 153 00:09:29.320 --> 00:09:34.279 Are these MCAST tests or prior MCAST tests? 154 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:36.039 I assume the test. 155 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.600 Gets changed every year, even the subject matter is the same, 156 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:42.600 the curriculum that's covered is the same. 157 00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:45.320 Are any of the past. 158 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.519 MCAST tests available for the public to see and review? 159 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:54.519 I mean, you and I both I think understand that 160 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:59.159 these are not challenging tests. These are not college admissions tests. 161 00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:00.679 They're at an a grade level. 162 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.720 But are these tests available for voters to see? 163 00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:07.519 Yeah, I'm fairly certain they are. And I can follow 164 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.759 up with that with you because I know that I 165 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:14.200 believe prior year's tests are available because they aren't changed. 166 00:10:14.240 --> 00:10:16.679 And what's also important to note, Dan, is that these 167 00:10:16.759 --> 00:10:21.200 questions are created by Massachusetts teachers, and so you know 168 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:25.720 this is very much a collaborative process and it's educators 169 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:29.159 who actually put these questions together for the students. 170 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:31.480 All right, well, let's take a break. My guest is 171 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:34.600 Mary Tamer. She's the executive director of the Democrats for 172 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:41.440 Education Reform in Massachusetts. They are on the negative side 173 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:44.600 of question ballot question number two. We will reach out 174 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:46.759 to the Teachers Union and have someone come on from 175 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.120 the teachers Union. At some point, it is the mass 176 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.639 Teachers Association, I believe who is really the group that 177 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:57.639 is pushing the elimination of the MCAST requirement. This is 178 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:01.600 not the elimination of the testing and the third and 179 00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:04.679 I think the eighth and the tenth grade. But this 180 00:11:04.840 --> 00:11:09.039 is just the requirement that you pass an MCAST test 181 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:12.120 in your tenth grade or later in order to be 182 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:15.519 eligible to receive a diploma upon graduation. If you'd like 183 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:18.279 to join the conversation, if you're a teacher, or you're 184 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:22.919 a parent and you feel that these requirements are very important, 185 00:11:23.039 --> 00:11:26.080 or if you feel that they stigmatize people, we can 186 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:28.799 have a pleasant conversation. We don't have to be insulting. 187 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.240 Six one, seven, two, five, four to ten thirty or 188 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.080 six one, seven, nine, three one ten thirty gets you 189 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:36.000 on Night's side. My name is Dan Ray. My guess 190 00:11:36.039 --> 00:11:39.279 Mary Taymor. She ran in for city council in Boston. 191 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.519 Very active. I believe at one point you were active 192 00:11:42.519 --> 00:11:44.519 with the League of Women Voters. If I'm not mistaken, 193 00:11:44.559 --> 00:11:51.039 you have an active record involved. You're the past president 194 00:11:51.039 --> 00:11:52.840 of the League of Women Voters in Boston as a 195 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:54.559 matter of fact, if I'm not mistaken, and a former 196 00:11:54.600 --> 00:11:59.000 Boston school person. Yep, absolutely, Okay. Mary Tamer's my guest 197 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:00.240 coming back on nights. 198 00:12:01.200 --> 00:12:04.159 Now, back to Dan ray Line from the Window World 199 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.440 night Side Studios on w b Z, the news Radio. 200 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:09.080 My guess is Mary Tamer. 201 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.240 She is the executive director of Democrats for Education Reform 202 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:18.440 in Massachusetts, a former candidate UH in Boston for City Council. 203 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:19.559 She's also served on. 204 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:23.519 Legal Women Voters UH, and she is on the other 205 00:12:23.559 --> 00:12:27.480 side of the issue from the teachers unions. There's more 206 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:29.679 than one teachers union in Massachusetts. 207 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:30.759 Is the teachers is it? 208 00:12:30.840 --> 00:12:33.600 The Is the m t A the driving force behind 209 00:12:33.639 --> 00:12:35.840 this this ballot initiative, Mary. 210 00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:39.440 They are, But the a f T or the American 211 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:44.039 Federation of Teachers in Massachusetts has also been supportive of 212 00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:46.080 the m t a's efforts. But it is the m 213 00:12:46.200 --> 00:12:48.679 t A who who filed the question. 214 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:52.519 Yes, okay, Now, they had to get a lot of 215 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.600 signatures to file to get on the ballot, that's for sure. 216 00:12:56.720 --> 00:12:59.200 What if the a concern with it, I mean, you know, 217 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:03.879 be as charitable as you can, but are they is 218 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:06.519 this something that they look at as onerous on them 219 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:08.519 or unfair to the students. 220 00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:10.879 How would they characterize. 221 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:14.639 Ye, No, it's a great question, Dan. I mean one 222 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:18.159 of the things that that is said repeatedly is that 223 00:13:18.559 --> 00:13:23.200 teachers that some teachers feel that they are teaching to 224 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:27.600 the test, you know, and that and if that were true, 225 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.519 then all of our children would be, you know, just 226 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:33.679 taking English, math and science all day, which isn't the case. 227 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:37.120 You know, my boys both went through the Boston Public schools, 228 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:39.120 as I know, you and I both did as well, 229 00:13:39.279 --> 00:13:43.120 and you know we weren't only subjected to English, math 230 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:47.360 and science, and thank heavens for that. So what teachers 231 00:13:47.360 --> 00:13:50.159 are supposed to be doing is in fact, teaching to standards, 232 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.240 and then MCAST is testing students on the standards that 233 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:58.440 they've been taught in the classroom. And so, you know, 234 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:02.720 I understand that it's a disruption in the schedule, you know, 235 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:05.679 when you have the four days of testing in March, 236 00:14:06.519 --> 00:14:10.399 but it really is essential for us to see what 237 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:13.000 the data is telling us. I mean, it's the greatest 238 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:17.360 gage we have to know exactly how students are doing, 239 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:19.679 especially at a time. And it was just this really 240 00:14:19.720 --> 00:14:22.440 interesting report that had just come out of Brown University 241 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:27.799 at the Annenberg Institute about rising great inflation ever since 242 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:30.960 the pandemic. You know, despite the fact that all you 243 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:32.960 see in the news is about the chronic apps and 244 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:38.399 teeism and how much school students are missing. But at 245 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.799 the same time we're having chronic apps andeeism, We've have 246 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.080 more straight A students than we've had in decades, yet 247 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.480 the test scores are not reflecting all a performance in 248 00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:53.919 class and so there's huge disconnects in terms of what 249 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.360 we're seeing in grades are you know, grades are subjective 250 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:02.360 and we need That's the thing about standardized testing. It 251 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:06.960 gives us an objective measure of how individual students are doing, 252 00:15:07.039 --> 00:15:09.480 how classes are doing, and how different. You know, we 253 00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.159 want to know how low income students are doing. We 254 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:15.080 want to know how our English learners, students with disabilities, 255 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.519 students of color are doing across all of our schools, 256 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.559 all of our districts. And that's what mcass and standardized 257 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:22.720 testing gives us. 258 00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:27.320 Well, it's it's an interesting topic. We're going to go 259 00:15:27.320 --> 00:15:30.960 to phone calls, my guest and Carrie Tamer again. Whether 260 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.159 you agree to disagree, we will have a polite conversation tonight. 261 00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:38.759 This will be ballid question number two on the Massachusetts 262 00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.840 November ballot, not on the primary ballot, but the November ballot. Robert, 263 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:45.080 and you're going to start us off tonight, Robert, your 264 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:46.279 first tonight on Night's side. 265 00:15:46.320 --> 00:15:48.559 You called in first. You're up, Robert, Coret ahead. 266 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:56.159 Oh, good evening, Jannon, good evening. To your guest, Mary Tamer. 267 00:15:56.240 --> 00:16:00.600 I was wondering if if a New York Regions Exam 268 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:06.360 still exist, and was MCS an effort to imitate the 269 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.000 New York reationis exam. 270 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:13.240 Ooh, that's a great question. So the regents, I know 271 00:16:13.360 --> 00:16:18.639 there was a measure to also take away the Regent's 272 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.720 exam and make it it might be it might be 273 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.240 an optional exam at this point. See what we've seen 274 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:31.080 in other states, and it's really fascinating is different states 275 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:34.559 offer different levels of diploma. And even in Indiana they 276 00:16:34.600 --> 00:16:38.600 have something called core forty and you could be core forty, 277 00:16:38.759 --> 00:16:42.519 core forty plus core forty with honors, and they literally 278 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:46.360 have I think eight different versions of diplomas depending on 279 00:16:46.960 --> 00:16:50.320 the courses you took, what tests you passed didn't pass. 280 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:55.320 In Massachusetts, we've been so fortunate to have this one, 281 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:59.360 you know, consistent standard. And I spoke with some folks 282 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:02.480 of an education organization in Indiana, and when I told 283 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:06.119 them about the ballot question we were facing, their response was, oh, 284 00:17:06.200 --> 00:17:08.799 my gosh, why would you change anything in Massachusetts? We 285 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:12.000 all look to you as the gold standard. And so 286 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:14.079 that's one of the questions, you know, we're kind of 287 00:17:14.119 --> 00:17:17.920 asking ourselves as well, because if you're going to change something, 288 00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:21.839 and no test is perfect. To be clear, we MCSIE 289 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:24.240 is considered to be one of the better of the 290 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:27.440 standardized assessments here in the United States. But if you're 291 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.880 going to make a significant change, why not do it 292 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:35.119 through a carefully deliberated process where we're looking at what 293 00:17:35.240 --> 00:17:38.119 are other states doing? Is someone doing something better than 294 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:43.079 we are? And also what is the high standard we 295 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:46.359 want to hold all of our students too, because when 296 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:50.960 you look at that we don't have required courses in Massachusetts. 297 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.599 The question we need to ask ourselves is do we 298 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:56.200 want three hundred and you know, three hundred and fifty 299 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:59.039 plus different versions of a diploma depending on what high 300 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:01.279 school you went to. Or do we want to know 301 00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:04.440 that if you have a Massachusetts diploma that it actually 302 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:07.480 means something because we know we've done We've looked at 303 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.519 every district in Massachusetts, and we know some high schools 304 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.759 have four or five course requirements for graduation and some 305 00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:18.680 high schools have fifteen to twenty. So there is great 306 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:22.680 disparities in terms of what is required of students. And 307 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:26.920 so if we leave this to local control, you're not 308 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:30.279 going to have any consistent standard whatsoever. And in fact, 309 00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:34.519 Massachusetts would be left with a lower graduation standard than 310 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:37.519 states like Alabama and Mississippi. 311 00:18:38.599 --> 00:18:42.240 Could I ask, would in your opinion, do you think 312 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:48.000 the solar system is a basic is a basic fact 313 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.039 that our high school students should have in their possession? 314 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:57.160 And do you think that a standardized test like some 315 00:18:57.799 --> 00:19:03.079 form standardized test like AMCAST system of testing should have 316 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:06.279 shared that knowledge like that is in the possession of 317 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:07.279 our high school graduate. 318 00:19:08.680 --> 00:19:10.440 I mean, I don't know if I would speak to 319 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:12.960 the solar system specifically, but I think that again, I 320 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:16.759 think having a science requirement, a tenth grade science requirement, 321 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.279 is an essential part of what we would want to 322 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:24.240 see from every Massachusetts graduate. And so and again, whatever 323 00:19:24.279 --> 00:19:27.319 the standards are for tenth grade science like that is 324 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:31.160 what that is, exactly what students are being tested on. 325 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:33.799 It's the standards that they are supposed to learn prior 326 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:39.160 to graduation. So I believe in all of the three requirements, 327 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:42.359 which are ELA maths and the science requirements. 328 00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:47.960 Well, thank you for answer, good questions, appreciate it, Thank 329 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:48.440 you very much. 330 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:50.680 We'll keep rolling right after the news. 331 00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.799 Here we get one open line of six one seven, two, 332 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.480 five forward ten thirty and couple at six one seven, 333 00:19:55.640 --> 00:20:00.160 nine three one ten thirty. I'm looking at it eighth 334 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.640 grade test here, and it's pretty challenging. To be really 335 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:05.920 honest with you, Mary, I have no idea some of 336 00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:09.440 these questions. Now again I haven't studied tenth grade mathematics 337 00:20:09.480 --> 00:20:11.960 in a while. But some of them are understandable, some 338 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.240 of them are pretty tough. This is not an, in 339 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:20.000 my opinion, a really easy test. Maybe maybe what's important. 340 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:24.319 It's important to note though, to Dan, there's four different 341 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:27.200 levels right when it comes to how MCAST is scored, 342 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:33.319 and so there's not meeting expectations partially meeting expectations, meeting 343 00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:37.279 expectations and then exceeding expectations in terms of the requirement. 344 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.880 We are asking students to hit the partially meeting expectations. 345 00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:45.319 So yes, Okay, my. 346 00:20:45.319 --> 00:20:48.599 Guess is Mary Tamer exacutly a director of Democrats of Education, 347 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.319 a former Massachusetts talking about the MCST requirement for graduation, 348 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:57.519 not talking about the MCAST testing that occurs at third, eighth, 349 00:20:57.519 --> 00:20:59.720 and tenth grade level. We're talking about the tenth grade 350 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:02.960 test requirement for graduation. When she's being challenged in a 351 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:06.920 valid question BALLID question number two and this year's Massachusetts 352 00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:12.880 ballot questions, the opposition to MCAST graduation requirement. Passing MCAST 353 00:21:13.039 --> 00:21:16.960 as a graduation requirement or doing adequately in order to 354 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:20.400 secure a diploma as opposed to a certificate of completion 355 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:26.240 is being really pushed at this point by the teachers' 356 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:29.839 unions here in Massachusetts. Back on Nightside More with Mary Tamer. 357 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:35.799 Right after this, it's Nightside with Dan Ray on Boston's 358 00:21:35.839 --> 00:21:36.480 news radio. 359 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:39.960 Okay, let me go to Judith in Mansfield. Judith, as 360 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.200 you know, my guest is Mary tam Or. She's with 361 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:45.240 Democrats for Education Reform in Massachusetts and we're talking about 362 00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:49.279 the MCST tenth grade graduation requirement. 363 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:53.319 Go right ahead, Judith, Hey, yeah, thanks. 364 00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:56.640 Dan, and hello Mary. I got a flyer on my 365 00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.319 stoop and it says the ballot question will rep heel 366 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:04.640 and replace the current statewide standard, so we'll still have 367 00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:08.519 statewide standards. So why keep the test? 368 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:14.200 Well, thank you for that question, Jude. So the truth 369 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:17.160 is there is no replacement. I think it's really important 370 00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:20.720 to be clear that if MCAST goes away as our 371 00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:25.720 sole graduation requirement in Massachusetts, there is no replacement for that, 372 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:29.519 and as I mentioned in the last segment, that we 373 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:32.920 will be left not only with it is essentially a 374 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.240 lowering of the standards that we currently have for all 375 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:39.319 of our high school students, but because we do not 376 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:43.680 have required curricular standards, we do not have required courses. 377 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:48.200 A diploma will mean so many different things depending on 378 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:52.200 what district you happen to send your child to. So 379 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.039 that really is our greatest concern is that we want 380 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.200 to maintain high standards in Massachusetts. We want to make 381 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:03.000 sure that the children who were being left behind back 382 00:23:03.119 --> 00:23:06.039 before the passage of the Education Reform Act of nineteen 383 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:09.319 ninety three that we're not leaving kids behind anymore, and 384 00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:12.039 we know that we still are, and there is absolutely 385 00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.920 more work to do here in Massachusetts, but this is 386 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:17.319 a step in the wrong direction. We do not want 387 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:20.839 to go backward. We need our schools, our districts, and 388 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:24.119 our students to move forward and to be well prepared 389 00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:27.519 for working in the global economy that we find ourselves in. 390 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.319 And I mean it looks like even if even if 391 00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:37.559 we're heaping the standards, then we're throwing out the test. 392 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.759 I mean, why keep the test if we're we still 393 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:44.839 have these standards. 394 00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:47.720 Well, because so I don't want us to conflate standards 395 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:52.319 and courses, and so we do have standards, but what 396 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:56.440 we don't have is required courses. And so you have districts, 397 00:23:56.440 --> 00:23:59.640 for example, that meet mass course standards, which means the 398 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:02.200 student and is getting four years of English, four years 399 00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:06.039 of math, three years of science, one or two years 400 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:08.559 of language. But then you have districts that are not 401 00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:12.680