1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,559 Hey everyone. This October, I'll be meeting up with some of my favorite 2 00:00:04,599 --> 00:00:11,080 podcasts for peak Fall Foliage in beautiful Berkshire County, Massachusetts, where I call 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:15,800 home and I want you to join me. Studio both And is hosting the 4 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:23,160 Berkshire Podcast Festival October nineteenth in North Adams, Massachusetts. This incredible podcast event 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:30,199 and live show will feature tons of podcasts including Generation Y, Truth and Justice, 6 00:00:30,559 --> 00:00:34,880 Crime Lines, The Karen and Ellen Letters, La Not So Confidential, 7 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:40,039 The Only One in the Room, Lucy from Wine and Crime Already Gone, 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:45,640 The Trail Went Cold, Affirmative Murder, and many many more. The Berkshires 9 00:00:45,679 --> 00:00:50,920 are conveniently located in western Massachusetts, just a quick trip from Albany, Boston, 10 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,399 New York City, Montreal, and Philadelphia. So come explore world class 11 00:00:55,479 --> 00:00:59,759 museums, the birthplace of farm to table dining, and the epicenter of the 12 00:00:59,759 --> 00:01:03,480 Garge, and then soak up the sounds of some of your favorite podcasts for 13 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,840 this weekend long event. To buy tickets, see who's coming, and learn 14 00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:14,280 more about the Berkshires and the event, go to Berkshire Podcast Festival dot com. 15 00:01:14,519 --> 00:01:21,519 That's b e r K s h i r E Podcast Festival dot com. 16 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:26,719 Also Tonight Thursday after the show at nine pm Eastern, join me and 17 00:01:26,799 --> 00:01:30,879 the researchers on YouTube for a live stream discussion about the episode. The link 18 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:44,719 to the live stream is in the show notes. This is a studio both 19 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:52,959 and production and all that leads us to let's talk about the photo, but 20 00:01:53,319 --> 00:01:55,920 also, you know, and I kind of want to go into this call 21 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:02,120 begrudgingly being open my mind. And I think it would be a great exercise 22 00:02:02,159 --> 00:02:07,960 if we all pretended we didn't know anything about Keys, because I think we're 23 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:14,199 going to have to have a few tough conversations about our research and our theories 24 00:02:14,199 --> 00:02:22,199 and everything we think we know. So why, Yeah, we're about to 25 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:29,919 drow up on us. This is true grime, bullshit. I'm your host, 26 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:43,360 Josh Hallmark, and this is a serialized story of Israel Keys. I 27 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,840 think one of the most compelling and frustrating things about the Keys case is how 28 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:55,039 little we actually factually know. Our investigation over the years has taken us quite 29 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:00,199 far. We've learned a lot about Israel. We've developed some very strong theories 30 00:03:00,199 --> 00:03:07,479 about potential victims. We've gathered very compelling, circumstantial evidence. We've uncovered a 31 00:03:07,479 --> 00:03:12,800 lot of new information about Keys, who he was, his relationships, how 32 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,439 he operated. But when we look at the absolute facts of the case, 33 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:22,120 particularly back when I started my work on it, we had very few. 34 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:28,360 Back in twenty sixteen, we had three confirmed victims and the key's confessions, 35 00:03:29,479 --> 00:03:35,840 and from there we cautiously built a thorough investigation. The Courier confession in particular, 36 00:03:36,439 --> 00:03:44,000 informed much of that investigation those few absolute truths. But what if those 37 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:52,560 truths weren't so absolute after all? Over the past year, multiple things have 38 00:03:52,639 --> 00:03:58,240 come up that brought us back to Vermont. Kim Kay had found multiple sightings 39 00:03:58,319 --> 00:04:02,000 or encounters with a man believed to be Keys at both the University of Vermont 40 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:08,800 Burlington and Saint Michael's College in Colchester. In October of twenty twenty three, 41 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:13,159 I was approached by two women who had photos of a man they believed could 42 00:04:13,199 --> 00:04:17,839 be Keys creeping into the Colchester woods. In November of twenty eleven, five 43 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:24,040 months after he killed the Couriers. It's around that same time that Jordan started 44 00:04:24,079 --> 00:04:29,800 going back through the Courier confessions and began to notice inconsistencies in some of Keyes's 45 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:34,480 statements, and I returned to the Essex files to start digging back through both 46 00:04:34,519 --> 00:04:42,079 the phone records and the witness interviews. Over the last eight months, we 47 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:48,439 each started independently developing some seemingly controversial theories, and after a research trip back 48 00:04:48,519 --> 00:04:53,959 up to Burlington, we all got together on zoom to share what we'd been 49 00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:00,399 working on. We or I don't know if took some and Shanaka HOSTI on 50 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:05,279 this have a theory about the Vermont caches. So, as Keys tells it, 51 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:11,279 on the Debra Feldman trip, he buried one in the woods behind his 52 00:05:11,399 --> 00:05:16,800 hotel, which is the Hampton Inn in Colchester. Then he went back at 53 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:23,879 some date later decided it wasn't sealed properly and moved it down to Windowski by 54 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:30,680 the couriers. And then after he committed those crimes, he essentially emptied it, 55 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:35,120 left it in the woods with a shovel and took everything either to Maine, 56 00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:44,240 somewhere in New Hampshire or Blaitfel's reservoir. But there are a few things 57 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,800 that stand out with that. One is there items that he talks about that 58 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:55,240 were never recovered, including the courier's phones, which I don't think he could 59 00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:00,800 just completely burn at a campsite. The second is why take all of that 60 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:06,480 shit to Maine and then just to bring it back to Blake Falls Reservoir. 61 00:06:06,519 --> 00:06:12,600 Like he's leaving the area with significant mileage and then bringing all the evidence back 62 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,839 to essentially his own backyard. It doesn't make a ton of sense. So, 63 00:06:17,399 --> 00:06:20,920 you know, we were talking to these gals who took the picture that 64 00:06:20,959 --> 00:06:25,920 they believed to be keys, that like I immediately thought was keys, was 65 00:06:25,959 --> 00:06:30,439 convinced and now I'm like sixty forty on and we can talk about that in 66 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,720 a sec But whether it's Keys or not, the area that this guy was 67 00:06:33,759 --> 00:06:42,000 going into are the woods behind the Hampton In hotel. It's basically you can 68 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,279 walk less than a mile from where this photo was taken to where he was 69 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,759 staying, and we know that the first cash is somewhere within that mile. 70 00:06:54,040 --> 00:07:00,600 So Bill Currier's phae pings right there. The the cell phone tower is actually 71 00:07:00,879 --> 00:07:06,639 directly next to where this woman worked at seven twenty six am the morning after 72 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:14,000 he abducted them. According to Keys, he's already on the road at this 73 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:19,560 point. But what we do know is like the phone is there in Vermont, 74 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:26,720 it gets an incoming call, it pings, But then this next incoming 75 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,439 call at eleven fifty seven am comes in and his phone has been turned off 76 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:36,360 at that point. So either Keys returned to this area where the first cash 77 00:07:36,399 --> 00:07:44,279 that allegedly doesn't exist anymore was with Bill's phone and Barry is it there, 78 00:07:45,519 --> 00:07:53,279 or he returns there for some reason unclear before going on the road to Maine. 79 00:07:53,560 --> 00:08:00,000 We then have other sightings of him there going way past the Courier's death, 80 00:08:00,879 --> 00:08:05,040 so October of twenty eleven, that alleged photo is November one, twenty 81 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:11,199 eleven. We have him in the area January third, twenty twelve. So 82 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:18,560 what I'm wondering is if all the items that were never recovered are in that 83 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:22,839 cash and he never actually moved it and it's still in the woods out there. 84 00:08:24,279 --> 00:08:33,960 I agree, I think that's probably the most likely scenario. The initial 85 00:08:35,039 --> 00:08:41,159 thought here was that Keys's timeline following the Courier's murders wasn't exactly as he presented 86 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:46,679 it, and that he likely returned to the Colchester cash and not the Wenuski 87 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:50,720 cash, the one that was never found, despite Keys leading the FBI there 88 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,480 to deposit some of the items he stole from the Couriers and other evidence from 89 00:08:54,480 --> 00:09:00,200 that crime. He confessed that he took and saved the courier's jewelry, but 90 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:05,600 it hasn't shown up anywhere. As you may recall, Keys confess to burying 91 00:09:05,639 --> 00:09:09,519 a cash in Colchester, Vermont on the same trip as the Tupper Lake Bank 92 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,360 robbery and the abduction and murder of Deborah Feldman. The hotel he stayed out 93 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:18,000 on that trip, the Colchester Hampton Inn, backs up to the same woods 94 00:09:18,159 --> 00:09:22,120 that the man in the photo was creeping into in November of twenty eleven. 95 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:28,919 Incidentally, Saint Michael's College, where we have multiple reports of Key sightings, 96 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,759 also backs up to those same woods, and the last cell tower Bill Currier's 97 00:09:33,799 --> 00:09:41,440 phone ever pinged at is also adjacent to those woods. Now, when we 98 00:09:41,639 --> 00:09:46,559 first saw these photos of the man in the woods, we were all pretty 99 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:50,080 convinced it was Keys, But in the time since some of our opinions on 100 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:56,679 the photos had changed, and all that leads us to let's talk about the 101 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,720 photo. But the photo. So again, the this is what I hate 102 00:10:00,799 --> 00:10:07,960 is where like something unsubstantiated is used to substantiate something else that's unsubstantiated. Yeah, 103 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:11,639 so Lisa says that this guy looks exactly like him, and before she 104 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:16,919 even sees the picture, which has never been made public, she id, 105 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,919 she says, like, the only thing about it that made me feel like 106 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:22,360 it wasn't Keys was he looked way too young, and he had this black 107 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:26,919 pike. And then so here's this photo where the only thing that makes us 108 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,879 skeptical is he looks way too young, and then he has this black pike 109 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,240 and he's in the area where the cash was and so like, circumstantially, 110 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:37,960 there's a lot of evidence, But the more I looked at that photo, 111 00:10:37,039 --> 00:10:41,440 I just it didn't I wasn't as certain that it was Keys anymore. And 112 00:10:41,519 --> 00:10:46,399 I know Shana Intooks had different journeys with this. Yeah, I'm more of 113 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,519 a skeptic. I think Shana, you're the one who's the most convinced it's 114 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,159 Keys. To me, Like, whenever I look at it, my gut 115 00:10:54,279 --> 00:10:56,600 tells me. And I know you can't always but go by your gut, 116 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,600 but I'm like, there's just something off about it, Like I can see 117 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:03,200 the resemblance. But then I'm like, and maybe you wouldn't get one hundred 118 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,480 percent even if we did see a real picture of Keys at like a robbery 119 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:11,360 that we were to uncoquer. But for some reason, it just I can't 120 00:11:11,399 --> 00:11:15,159 believe it one hundred percent, that's for sure. Well, I wouldn't bet 121 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,879 my life on it. Yeah, I know you, but you're convinced, 122 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,879 I guess, But I he looks too young, which is really interesting. 123 00:11:28,159 --> 00:11:31,960 He The way I'm thinking of it is, we don't know Keys. We 124 00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:37,159 don't know how his face looks from different angles. We don't know how it 125 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:41,720 looks when it moves like. He's not our peer, He's not somebody whose 126 00:11:41,799 --> 00:11:46,360 face we've looked across at for years. I would love to be able to 127 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:52,600 show it to somebody who knew him and see what their thoughts were. The 128 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,480 more photos of Keys that I compare it to, the more I do think 129 00:11:56,519 --> 00:12:01,320 it's Keys. If you were to take away all the circumstantial things about it 130 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:07,120 being, you know, in Essex or Colchester during a time when he was 131 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,840 there pretty frequently, in a spot where we know he admitted to having a 132 00:12:11,879 --> 00:12:16,720 cash, if we were to take that all away, I would probably be 133 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:22,200 sixty forty with Josh. But adding all that in, I'm more like ninety 134 00:12:22,279 --> 00:12:26,480 ten sure it's him. Now, this is something that does not help us 135 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,200 decide whether it's him or not. But whenever I look at the picture, 136 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,960 it looks to me like that person. And I don't mean this disparagingly, 137 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,759 but it looks to me like there's someone who's on drugs, which could be 138 00:12:37,879 --> 00:12:39,679 Keys, of course, because there's that whole meth angle, but that's just 139 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,320 a look. It looks like someone who's like, I don't know, just 140 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,960 has that look about them. I don't know if you guys noticed that either, 141 00:12:46,039 --> 00:12:52,360 but I just put the photos, and she gave us her original report 142 00:12:52,399 --> 00:12:54,279 that she sent to ESSEXPD. I just put them in the chat so you 143 00:12:54,279 --> 00:12:58,879 can look for yourselves. Never reveal her name. She's a very private person 144 00:13:00,159 --> 00:13:07,799 and she does not want her name revealed. Yeah, I made some comparisons 145 00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:11,600 that I put in Lark. I don't know if you saw them, Josh, 146 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,679 I did not. Okay, the more I see them next to pictures 147 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,799 of Keys, the more I do think it was him. But again circumstantially, 148 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:24,480 that's what makes this a stronger case for me for it being him than 149 00:13:24,919 --> 00:13:28,279 the photos, just based on how this person looks. I would love to 150 00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:31,720 hear Jordan and Kim's thoughts on these photos, because I don't think we've heard 151 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:39,120 them I am like the polar opposite of your super recognizer, Like that is 152 00:13:39,159 --> 00:13:43,320 like the one thing I'm really terrible at is trying to make faces out. 153 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:46,320 So I've been kind of unsure on it. I think it probably well could 154 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:52,399 be, but I think that my opinion on it's been more performed by context 155 00:13:52,519 --> 00:13:58,840 than my actual visual ability, So I can't really say for certain one way 156 00:13:58,879 --> 00:14:03,000 or another on it based on Yeah, yeah, I'm kind of with Jordan 157 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,799 on not being able to recognize very well. But I keep looking at the 158 00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:15,480 photos ear lobe and hairline and chin, and I just didn't feel like they 159 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,440 matched keys. But I know, like I showed it to my husband and 160 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,480 he was like, yeah, that looks like Keith. So like I don't 161 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:28,000 know, like he's not really into He's stuff at all, so like he's 162 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,840 not like studying pictures of him, but from what he's seen, I think 163 00:14:31,879 --> 00:14:35,879 I showed him pictures of keys with short hair and he's like, yeah, 164 00:14:35,879 --> 00:14:39,480 I think that is him. So yeah, I mean you might know about 165 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,840 this, Like I haven't gone down this rabbit hole enough, but would there 166 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:46,960 be some kind of AI software that especially this photo where you see him standing 167 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,679 by the bike and it's so blurry that could like sharpen that up. Yeah, 168 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,519 definitely, Yeah, I wonder if we could run that through there, 169 00:14:54,559 --> 00:14:58,399 And just does that one I feel like would make or break it? Yeah? 170 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,080 And that one, like looking at I I don't think I saw that 171 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,960 one earlier, And that one looks more like Key's to me. So yeah, 172 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,960 But is it just because it's blurry, or is it really because we 173 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:11,080 get a fuller picture of this person what they look like, because he looks 174 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,240 a lot taller here too, because obviously he's in a different position. But 175 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:20,519 yeah, I'll see what I can do now. First and foremost, these 176 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:26,039 aren't just photos that appeared out of the ether after the podcast came out. 177 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,200 They are photos that are actually referenced in the original FBI files. On December 178 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:37,080 twenty sixth, the twenty twelve, a woman called the FBI tip line to 179 00:15:37,159 --> 00:15:41,240 report that she saw a man who looked like Israel Keys in Colchester in November 180 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:48,120 of two thousand eleven. Here's the details from the FBI files. She called 181 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:54,000 and stated she worked on Troy Avenue in Colchester, Vermont, and was working 182 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,360 late one night in November two thousand eleven and saw a man walking out of 183 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,320 the woods nearby. She thought that man looked odd, so she took photographs 184 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,639 of the mail. She stated he had a cell phone in his hand when 185 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:11,200 he was exiting the woods. She witnessed him from her office. Unfortunately, 186 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:17,840 there's not much context there. There's nothing about it that screams keys other than 187 00:16:17,879 --> 00:16:22,720 a man entering the woods late at night. Fortunately, though, she also 188 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,919 reported this to Ssex PD when it happened, and we were able to obtain 189 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:33,200 a copy of that report, which reads. On one November twenty eleven, 190 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,000 at about four forty five p m. I was sitting in my office on 191 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:41,759 Troy Avenue in Colchester and saw a man ride by on his bike, somewhat 192 00:16:41,799 --> 00:16:47,600 slowly, wearing a black jacket with white stripes on the arms and blue jeans. 193 00:16:48,519 --> 00:16:51,320 I got up and opened the window to look at him. He was 194 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,519 looking into the woods. I see a lot of people come by my office, 195 00:16:55,519 --> 00:16:57,200 but I have never seen someone who seemed to have an interest in the 196 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:02,519 woods below, although I know the trail is sometimes used. When I put 197 00:17:02,559 --> 00:17:06,559 my head out, I saw him going slowly along the woods and looking into 198 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:10,200 them. Then he turned around and came back by my window. I'm on 199 00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:14,920 the second floor and turned over toward a path across the street from my office. 200 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,960 He stopped at the top of the path and I got out my cell 201 00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:21,640 to try to take a picture. He got off his bike. It looked 202 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,240 like he did something with his back break and then got back onto his bike. 203 00:17:25,799 --> 00:17:27,880 By then I had my cell camera on. I took a picture of 204 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:33,039 him heading down the bike path on his bike. I saw him ride into 205 00:17:33,039 --> 00:17:37,359 the dingle, going pretty slowly down the hill, and I didn't see him 206 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,920 stop. About a minute later, I saw him walking over towards the left. 207 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:45,119 He was easy to see because most of the leaves have come off the 208 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,119 trees. I saw him walking back and forth a few times, going slightly 209 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,400 up and down along what I think is a swampy area. After about five 210 00:17:53,519 --> 00:17:56,759 or seven minutes walking back and forth, I thought it looked like he was 211 00:17:56,799 --> 00:18:00,559 looking for something. He went back in toward what I think is the bottom 212 00:18:00,599 --> 00:18:04,759 of the trail, and then he started walking the opposite direction to the right 213 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:10,319 a few more minutes, but less than on the other side. He stayed 214 00:18:10,319 --> 00:18:12,799 at the bottom in the middle for a few minutes, then walked his bike 215 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,759 back up. I tried to take a few pictures of him coming up the 216 00:18:15,839 --> 00:18:19,200 hill, but I couldn't get the camera to focus. When he got out 217 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,519 of the woods at the top of the trail, I took a picture. 218 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,200 He went to the road and looked at what looked like a foam for about 219 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,000 thirty seconds. He didn't make a call, but put it away, then 220 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,880 was looking back at the woods. He then got back on his bike and 221 00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:37,839 left the opposite direction from the way I saw him come in. It was 222 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,640 around five PM or so when he left. A few things to note. 223 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:48,160 One, the direction he was originally walking is toward the Hampton Inn. Two, 224 00:18:48,799 --> 00:18:53,279 as she noted, he appeared to be looking for something in the woods. 225 00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:59,160 Three. A woman named Lisa reported to us that she had seen Keys 226 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,839 several blocks from where this sighting occurred, with a bike that exactly matched the 227 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,440 bike in the photo. When she mentioned this, she hadn't known about the 228 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:11,000 photos, let alone the bike included in them. When I showed her a 229 00:19:11,039 --> 00:19:14,440 picture, she said, yes, that's the man, and that's that fucking 230 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,000 bike. Four. Keys told the FBI that he was concerned about the Colchester 231 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:25,640 cash not originally being sealed properly and that items inside it might get wet and 232 00:19:25,759 --> 00:19:30,359 rust, and as the woman stated the area the man seemed to be searching 233 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:36,160 in was a swampy area of the woods. But based on Keys's account of 234 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:41,039 his time in Vermont and the date November one of twenty eleven, we couldn't 235 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:44,720 make sense why if it was him, he'd be going back to the cash 236 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,519 so long after the murder of the couriers. And that's when Jordan shared with 237 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:59,359 us his theory that he had quietly been looking into. Now, Jordan, 238 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,480 what's your theory about him moving the couriers? Well, this is based off 239 00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:11,359 of a few threads I've just kind of been pulling and following through the FBI 240 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,039 interviews, and then I buried it up with some of the notes from the 241 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,079 from the case file from the Essex. We know that Bill's glasses were found 242 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:26,759 in the yard outside of the house. Now it's not to say they maybe 243 00:20:26,759 --> 00:20:30,880 couldn't have fallen off outdoors when they were getting out of the car, but 244 00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:37,240 I find it very hard to believe that if they were in the basement with 245 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:40,839 Bill when the house was demolished, they would be in pristine conditions, sitting 246 00:20:40,839 --> 00:20:44,920 in the front yard and the grass to the point where they could analyze the 247 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,799 prescription on them the match them back to Bill. That makes zero sense to 248 00:20:48,799 --> 00:20:53,119 me whatsoever. And what really said it together kind of tied it together for 249 00:20:53,279 --> 00:20:59,799 me. Was reading through the Essex files. There's an interview with the home 250 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:07,480 for the farmhouse and in October of twenty eleven, she sent a guy to 251 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:11,759 clean the house out, take the foundation stone out of the basement because it 252 00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:17,519 was a family property. And he said basically did that a week before they 253 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,200 signed off on the sale of the house for it to be demolished. He 254 00:21:21,279 --> 00:21:25,880 went there, he was there for two days in October twenty eleven. Now, 255 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,839 this guy does not have a sense of smell, so this is kind 256 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:33,680 of the weirdest coincidence ever. With that, he said he can't smell anything 257 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,400 at all and therefore would not have noticed any odor in the basement, but 258 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,240 said there was nothing out of place down there. The detective asked about garbage 259 00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:44,960 bags. He said, there were a couple of garbage bags. He said 260 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,319 he kicked them and they were full of old jars and cans. He said, 261 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:52,359 if you entered the basement from the driveway by the propane tanks through the 262 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,640 red bulkhead doors, you would see the bags right in front of this fuel 263 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,119 tank. So and he drew a diagram which is included in the file of 264 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,519 right where these bags were. So he said nothing, there was nothing out 265 00:22:04,519 --> 00:22:08,759 of the ordinary in the basement, nothing out of place in the house when 266 00:22:08,759 --> 00:22:12,319 he went there. And I mean Key's admitted to what kicking the door in. 267 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,480 It wasn't very well secured. There were a few locks, but there's 268 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,079 like four or five different ways to get in to that and it was the 269 00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:25,640 basement one of them. The basement access was one of the ways. And 270 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:33,720 there was basically the front door. I think that door was locked, but 271 00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:38,000 I think I kicked it in at the time and basically ran attacking the place. 272 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:44,279 And then we have in his April thirtieth interview, he was talking about 273 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,319 building a silencer for his rifle and taking it with him to Essex, and 274 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,079 he told the athf he built a fabric brass catcher to catch shellcasings, but 275 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,519 didn't take it to Essex, and explained that that's why he took the bolt 276 00:22:57,559 --> 00:23:02,480 and barrel from that weapon and threw it in the reservoir, because he left 277 00:23:02,519 --> 00:23:07,720 the showcasings behind after shooting Bill. But the caretaker would have noticed a bunch 278 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,200 of showcasings on the floor, correct, I would think, at least so 279 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:17,319 trying to round up all the shell casings that were all over the basement. 280 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,559 But then it was like it was too big of a mess, so I 281 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,559 just gave up on that and just figured i'd throw the bolt of the gun 282 00:23:23,599 --> 00:23:33,119 away too, and I had him back in the corner, and there was 283 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,440 all kinds of trash over on the other side of the basement, like shelves, 284 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:47,319 old shelves and ducting, mostly wood debris and stuff. And by then 285 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:49,880 it was too late in the morning. I didn't want to torch the house 286 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:55,160 because there were too many people going by. There. Had a brass catcher 287 00:23:55,559 --> 00:24:00,200 that I had made. I didn't have the as catcher on it when I 288 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:06,640 kind of shot mister Career, which is why I threw away. I had 289 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,640 to throw away the bolt and the extractor and everything too, because there was 290 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:17,480 twenty two shells all over the basement of that house. And but yeah, 291 00:24:17,519 --> 00:24:22,240 I had the brass catcher so that I could so that all I have to 292 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,319 toss was the barrel. The barrels pretty, they're pretty cheat, like thirty 293 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:33,799 or forty. Well, the home owner didn't mention that there is a septic 294 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:37,319 tank and a well on the property, and it looked like from what she 295 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:44,119 could see in the photos and the videos on the case, that those hadn't 296 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:48,880 been disturbed, so it didn't look like maybe the police had even searched them. 297 00:24:48,079 --> 00:24:52,920 But as far as where they could possibly would have been, I don't 298 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,400 have a good answer, a good lead on that, but I do think 299 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,000 that the more I the more I look at it, the more I think 300 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:03,279 about it, the more things I find they kind of connect with it. 301 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:07,599 It feels more like Keys knew they weren't there and was just getting off on 302 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,440 messing with them, searching and doing this whole search knowing they weren't there in 303 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:21,920 the first place. Now, it's important to note when and how Keys confessed 304 00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:26,880 to the abduction and murders of the Couriers. On April sixth of twenty twelve 305 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,720 is when he first told the FBI that he killed a couple in Vermont. 306 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,680 Throughout the course of that interview, he eventually named the couple as the Couriers 307 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,039 and said they could be found in a farmhouse in Essex, and then they 308 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:45,759 let him use Google Maps to lead them to the exact farmhouse. On April 309 00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:49,559 twelfth. He said that he didn't want to discuss the couriers that day, 310 00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:55,839 but later in that same interview, the FBI told him that the farmhouse in 311 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,559 Essex had been demolished. Then on May eighth, after they've told him the 312 00:26:00,599 --> 00:26:06,880 farmhouse has been demolished, he starts providing details about what happened in the farmhouse 313 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,279 after he knows or believes at least that most of what he says about what 314 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:17,200 happened in that farmhouse can never be corroborated or refuted. All that said, 315 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,359 I don't think it's the first time that he learned about the demolition of the 316 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:26,079 farm house. But more on that in a second. First, let's take 317 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,359 a look at the statements from the home owner and a man that she hired 318 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,559 to go through the house before they closed on the sale of the farmhouse. 319 00:26:33,559 --> 00:26:37,200 She said that she hired a man named Larry to go to the house and 320 00:26:37,319 --> 00:26:41,480 jack hammer out of foundation stone that she wanted to keep, and that Larry 321 00:26:41,519 --> 00:26:45,319 had been a caretaker for the house since around two thousand six. Larry was 322 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:51,319 on the property for two days in late October of two thousand eleven, and 323 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,400 most of his time there was spent in the basement. Larry said there wasn't 324 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,079 really anything in the basement. When asked about garbage bag he said there were 325 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:03,799 a couple. He said that he kicked the bags to see what was inside 326 00:27:03,799 --> 00:27:07,640 of them, and that they were just full of old jars and cans. 327 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,039 He said that the garbage bags were in a pile with some old tires and 328 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,079 hosing, and Larry said that other than the bags and the pile that they 329 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:22,960 were in, there was nothing else in the basement other than storage. The 330 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:26,640 short version is, as you know, we don't have the courriers' bodies in 331 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,920 hand yet the house was demolished. We thought that they were probably in the 332 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,880 basement when the house was demolished. They didn't wind up being the case. 333 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,039 Among the things, we had canaverdogs out there. They alerted on the same 334 00:27:38,039 --> 00:27:41,519 corner of the basement, of the southeast corner of the basement that you told 335 00:27:41,559 --> 00:27:45,160 us about, So they alerted there. We talked to a number of folks 336 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,759 on the demolition crew. I think it was about three or four folks on 337 00:27:47,799 --> 00:27:51,039 the demolition crew, and they all ironically said, yeah, we smelled this 338 00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:55,200 horrible odor. Smelled essentially like a dead body or dead animal. That type 339 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,039 of thing and know who you talked to, and yet none of them, 340 00:27:57,519 --> 00:28:00,000 much to our shock and on, decided it might be a good idea to 341 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:03,559 go in and walk through the house. So apparently they didn't do that, 342 00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:07,759 otherwise the bodies would have been discovered. They just went ahead with their demolition. 343 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,640 I don't know why they did that, it doesn't matter, but they 344 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,599 did. We went we did some additional research on how the house was demolished. 345 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:19,279 It was very similar to what you described in one of the interviews a 346 00:28:19,279 --> 00:28:22,480 while back, by the way, and our best guest, frankly, is 347 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:27,000 they were using a huge crane to basically excavate the site and stuff, and 348 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,079 it would go in and basically pick up the better part of half a dump 349 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:36,359 truckload of stone. One yeah, I mean huge, and our bucket. 350 00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:41,079 Our best guess at this point in time is Murphy's law. They scooped up 351 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,839 the bags without basically splitting them open, that type of thing, and put 352 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,039 them in the dump truck. We've tracked them down to the to the dump 353 00:28:49,319 --> 00:28:55,039 in Vermont, and we actually have folks there right now today searching it and 354 00:28:55,079 --> 00:29:00,599 we've got it narrowed down to a pretty small area of the debris taken from 355 00:29:00,599 --> 00:29:06,240 that house and they got their work cut out for them. And I mean 356 00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:11,359 just to uh again, your courriers glasses were found, yeah, and we 357 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,559 were able to match those to him, So they were found at the scene. 358 00:29:14,559 --> 00:29:17,920 So we do have a connection to the scene and to the couriers and 359 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,920 stuff, and we've been able to corroborate the information that you're that you're giving 360 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,319 us on this. It's just not going as quickly or as smoothly you would 361 00:29:23,319 --> 00:29:26,079 all alike, and frankly, the way that it usually goes in most cases 362 00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:29,480 is just not going that well. Every time. Every once in a while 363 00:29:29,519 --> 00:29:32,519 there's a hiccup, and that's really what this is. So now that the 364 00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:37,519 people out there in Vermont are in the dump and they're looking for your black 365 00:29:37,759 --> 00:29:42,640 bags, you know so, and I think you told us four bags. 366 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,920 Are they separate bags or you put a bag on the bottom and a bag 367 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,119 on the top, that's how it was separate bags or bag on the top 368 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:55,079 bag? I mean with two bags on each body. That's that's what I 369 00:29:55,079 --> 00:29:57,119 thought you had said. How did you secure them? I mean I don't 370 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,720 think they were secured, just not at them on top, like, not 371 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,279 at the two bags together. But the main I mean I have main the 372 00:30:06,279 --> 00:30:10,440 main reason I had for putting the bags on was just so that people wouldn't 373 00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:15,839 they would have to actually pull the bag off to see what it wasn't and 374 00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:19,039 and also to hold the drain on the bodies. I had some draino that 375 00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:25,599 I brought with me. Okay, So so when they're looking for these, 376 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:29,640 if there's any if it was there, just did you dismember them. So 377 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,400 now they're looking, so they're they're they're contact So if we find partial, 378 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:41,920 we need to keep looking. Yeah, they're should they're yeah, if they 379 00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:45,440 If I'm guessing it sounds like they brought in a big excavator or something. 380 00:30:47,079 --> 00:30:49,119 I'm still sounds like a really big one. Yeah, yeah, I would 381 00:30:49,119 --> 00:30:55,480 have had there been a really big one because because like I said that, 382 00:30:55,839 --> 00:31:00,480 the bags weren't tied together, so it seems like they would have been the 383 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,440 bodies would have although it's only it's been less than a year or so, 384 00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:08,480 the bodies probably weren't even you know, they were probably only about halfway to 385 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,960 skeletal, so they're probably even with all the moisture of the bags, le 386 00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:18,519 trap and stuff. Well, it depends how busy the bugs got. But 387 00:31:19,039 --> 00:31:22,440 and what did you put the draino in there? Is that what you said? 388 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:30,960 What's that for? Uh? The draino was an idea I had in 389 00:31:32,079 --> 00:31:34,599 case they were found right away. I didn't want there to be in the 390 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:41,680 DNA on the outside of the bodies. I had heard that the lie and 391 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,960 the draino destroys like scrambles up all the DNA. I don't know. And 392 00:31:47,119 --> 00:31:52,920 also it was I was singing to keep it like if you leave it on 393 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,119 saw it like if you leave the draino I was using. I'd used it 394 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,319 before, and I noticed that they got splash on me and it'll actually burn 395 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,279 through your skin if you leave it on there long enough. And so that 396 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,599 was the other thought I had, that it would start the decomposition and they 397 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:16,920 would, you know, break them down a little bit faster, keep them 398 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:23,680 from bloating and stuff. And you didn't tape the bag shut at all or 399 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,880 do anything. No, I know they weren't taped. There was possibly they're 400 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:34,319 possibly knotted. Would they be knotted with a zip TI or no? Just 401 00:32:36,519 --> 00:32:40,160 they may have been seems like the bags might have been the kind with the 402 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:45,279 flaps like extended portions of the bag on the top of the mouth of the 403 00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:52,359 bag. So what I may have done is pulled them together at the at 404 00:32:52,359 --> 00:32:55,599 the waist, at the torso, and then just done a knot on top, 405 00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:00,599 But I don't think I did. It was dark and I was in 406 00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:04,319 a hurry at that point, so it's more like it how early in the 407 00:33:04,319 --> 00:33:07,319 morning. How close was it to get in daylight? It was daylight, 408 00:33:07,359 --> 00:33:12,880 it wasn't. It was probably about six in the morning when I had everything 409 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:19,079 wrapped up. So while the FBI can corroborate that the couriers were there, 410 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:23,559 or at least that Keys was there, they can't corroborate Keys's claims about what 411 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:30,880 took place there, and more so, we can actually refute some of those 412 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:35,599 claims. Now. In his statement, Larry went on to say that when 413 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:37,720 he did some work on the farmhouse back in two thousand and seven or two 414 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:43,559 thousand and eight, he placed a chain and lock on the basement bulkhead doors. 415 00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:49,440 But anyway, I took him down through the outside basement access. There 416 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:53,680 were those two big steel doors into the basement, and I walked him down 417 00:33:53,680 --> 00:34:00,880 there and found h there was like an old stool and cable tie his hands 418 00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:05,079 down to the stool so he couldn't stand up, and then had the stool 419 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,880 backed up against the wall and thought, I had it pretty well secured. 420 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,800 And uh, well, I mean, there must have taken you longer than 421 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,679 I thought, because I came out of the basement and she was standing right 422 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,199 there by the door she had got out of the car. But Larry said 423 00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:25,119 that when he returned in October of twenty eleven to remove the foundation stone, 424 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:31,239 the chain and the lock were still intact on the basement bulkhead doors. Larry 425 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:37,719 also didn't mention the front door being completely kicked in, nor finding any let 426 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:43,719 alone five to eight shell casings on the basement floor, where again he spent 427 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,159 most of his time over those two days. And as far as Keys knew, 428 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,760 because the FBI told him before he fully confessed, the house sold and 429 00:34:52,920 --> 00:35:00,280 was immediately demolished. But like I mentioned earlier, I think he's I knew 430 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:05,760 the house had been demolished long before he was even arrested. For one, 431 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,159 we know that Keyes returned to the area at least twice between the murders and 432 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:15,440 his arrest, and as Bobby Chaconne, doctor Cuncle, and doctor Ramsland have 433 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,639 all agreed. Keyes was the type of offender who would return to the scenes 434 00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:23,079 of his crimes, so it's highly unlikely that he'd be in the area and 435 00:35:23,159 --> 00:35:29,360 not check on the farmhouse. But more than that is how Keys found the 436 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,679 house in the first place. He found it in a real estate listing, 437 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:42,440 specifically a real estate listing online on a real estate website. So this is 438 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,679 the place that was ultimately demolished and that we searched and did not find the 439 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:52,239 bodies in do you have it? Were there any interior pictures like from the 440 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:58,079 real estate listing agent or something. That's all we were able to find with 441 00:35:58,159 --> 00:36:01,719 that, because they know, if they ever want I don't know, if 442 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,880 they ever want the interview of you know, like what happened inside the house, 443 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,599 that might be Actually that's probably good enough just to picture the outside. 444 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:13,360 Yeah, Like I said, I really jumped the gun on that, But 445 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:19,800 I had no idea. Oh man, what the hell? So looking at 446 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,039 that house, I knew there was like a ten percent chance that the owner 447 00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:24,800 was either going to pay to have it demolished or just throw a match. 448 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,239 It was that the house, well, I knew it. I just knew 449 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,800 from what I knew about houses. I knew it wasn't something anybody would try 450 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:37,159 to have a more sales sign out in front of it. Was Yeah, 451 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,960 so apparently there wasn't too many people looking at that house to purchase it after 452 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,960 you were there. No, well, this is off of our real estate 453 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,000 website. That's why I was curious. I'm not surprised though, that whoever 454 00:36:53,039 --> 00:36:57,440 had it listed didn't take pictures of the inside, because it was pretty bad. 455 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:02,199 Wasn't impressive, it was it just looks like letter for the so Keys 456 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:07,079 could have at any time gone back to that website to see if the farmhouse 457 00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:14,639 had sold or not. And that takes us back to the key sighting on 458 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:19,760 November first of twenty eleven. And while we've already discussed the sightings placing him 459 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,079 there that October, this new one with these photos of him potentially looking for 460 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:30,199 or going to an old cash in Colchester would line up quite well with him 461 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,480 finding out that the old farmhouse had sold and returning to move the courier's bodies 462 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:49,000 or any evidence left behind before the new owners took possession of it. While 463 00:37:49,079 --> 00:37:52,760 the movement of the couriers remains and the use of the Colchester cash in relation 464 00:37:52,880 --> 00:38:00,880 to their abduction homicides impossible cover up our strong theories that were still developing theories. 465 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,679 But in addition to the lies that we know Keys told about the farmhouse, 466 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:13,440 we've caught him in some other lies regarding that trip. According to Keyes's 467 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,960 timeline of events following his murder of Bill in the Rain Courier, he left 468 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,840 the farmhouse at some time between six and six thirty a m. On June 469 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,800 ninth. From there, he at first says that he drove directly to the 470 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,760 Home Depot parking lot across the street from the Handy Suites where he was staying. 471 00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:32,519 Later, he says he might have stopped at the hotel first to unload 472 00:38:32,559 --> 00:38:37,119 items from the Courier's trunk which were used in the crime. He says he 473 00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:40,719 believes he may have placed them in the hotel dumpster, then driven the car 474 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,280 back across the street and left it in the Home Depot parking lot, but 475 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,400 either way, after parking their car at the Home Depot, he walked back 476 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,400 to the Handy Suites to pack and swort through items he stole from the Courier's 477 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:57,880 house, some which he kept and some which he stated he also put in 478 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,519 the dumpster. He then says that he checked out of the hotel by eight 479 00:39:00,519 --> 00:39:04,679 a m. At the very latest, because he wanted to be up in 480 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,639 Johnson before the banks opened at nine. After checking out, he drove his 481 00:39:08,679 --> 00:39:13,920 rental car across the street to a different parking lot, then walked back to 482 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:20,199 the courier's car at home depot and started driving Route fifteen towards Johnson. As 483 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,639 we all well know by now, At some point en route to Johnson, 484 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:27,679 Keys claims that he started having doubts about the courier's car making it all the 485 00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:31,480 way, so he turned around, drove back to Essex Junction, and abandoned 486 00:39:31,519 --> 00:39:37,360 the courier's car at apartments at two forty one Pearl Street. Then from there 487 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:43,079 walked back through a wooded area to his rental car and decided instead of robbing 488 00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:45,239 the banks, he would just head straight to his brother's house in Bangor, 489 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:51,039 Maine. Assuming that this is all true and accurate, that has him on 490 00:39:51,159 --> 00:39:55,559 the road to Maine by nine thirty at the very latest. Then he says 491 00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,519 he was about halfway to Maine when he remembered that the courier's phone were still 492 00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:06,119 long, and so he pulled over to turn them off. We've obviously always 493 00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:09,960 had some suspicions about his timeline of events here, but now we can say 494 00:40:10,119 --> 00:40:21,360 with little hesitation that not a single word is true. First off, according 495 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,639 to the hotel registration that Keys signed at check in, which we got from 496 00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:29,880 the Essex files, Keys had only registered to stay at the Handy Suites for 497 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,800 one night, the night of June seventh, but we can confirm that he 498 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,760 was billed for two nights, so at some point after registering he extended his 499 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:43,400 stay, which is more an interesting tidbit than it is evidence of his timeline 500 00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,519 lies. The most glaring evidence of his lies are the cell phone records. 501 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:52,360 First, we have Bill Currier's seven to twenty six a M ping, which 502 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:58,800 placed his phone near the Troy Avenue cell tower and not at the Susie Wilson 503 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,960 Tower, which is within one block of the home depot, the Handy Suites 504 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:07,280 two forty one Pearl, and the alleged sight of the Wenooski Kill Kit. 505 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:14,039 The two towers are approximately two miles apart. Additionally, if Keys were somehow 506 00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:17,519 still at the farmhouse, there are at least six other towers closer by, 507 00:41:19,679 --> 00:41:24,039 including the Essex Town Center tower just two blocks away. Now we'll get to 508 00:41:24,079 --> 00:41:29,920 that eleven fifty seven incoming call on Bill's phone in a second, but first 509 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,199 we have to go to the home depot parking lot, well, a different 510 00:41:34,599 --> 00:41:40,440 home depot parking lot in nearby Williston, Vermont. By now, you've probably 511 00:41:40,519 --> 00:41:45,639 all seen the police sketch of keys that was created from an eye witness who 512 00:41:45,679 --> 00:41:49,880 saw keys backing the Courier's car out of a parking space in that home depot 513 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,920 lot. He told police that while he was pulling into the parking lot, 514 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:59,039 the man in the Courier's car sped out of his parking space and nearly hid 515 00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:04,119 his car. That's why the encounter was so memorable. Well, that witness 516 00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:09,599 was actually a retired Vermont Police officer. Now, there have been some comments 517 00:42:09,599 --> 00:42:15,280 from ESSEXPD regarding the accuracy of the composite sketch, and it was ultimately decided 518 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:20,119 it could not be used to rule sightings in or out. After the witness 519 00:42:20,159 --> 00:42:23,440 eventually told police that he never got a clear sighting of the man's face from 520 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:30,400 head on, solely a quick view of his profile. However, he accurately 521 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:35,800 described the Courier's car and confirmed that the driver was a tall, white male 522 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,440 with shoulder length hair, all of which accurately describes Keys at the time, 523 00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:45,159 and the sketch included a Roman nose, which would have been even more clear 524 00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:50,800 in profile than head on. In a later interview, ESSEXPD asked if the 525 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:55,199 witness could provide any information or documentation proving when or when about this occurred, 526 00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:00,639 and he pretty quickly provided a receipt from from his trip to home depot that 527 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:07,800 day, and sure enough, the receipt is dated June ninth of twenty eleven, 528 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:15,320 but it's the timestamp that brings Key's entire account into question. The receipt 529 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:22,360 is timestamped two fifty three PM, more than five hours after Keys claimed he 530 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:30,719 left the Burlington area. Additionally, while Williston is close to Essex Junction, 531 00:43:30,119 --> 00:43:36,639 just four miles south, it's in the opposite direction from Johnson and the banks 532 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:44,199 that Keyes told the FBI who was planning to rob that morning, and so 533 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,639 that brings into question the second relevant piece of cell data. When the eleven 534 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,880 fifty seven am call came into Bill's phone that morning, the phone had already 535 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:58,039 been turned off or potentially could have died, but according to Keyes, he 536 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,639 was halfway to Maine when he remembered to turn it off, so either his 537 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,800 entire departure story is bullshit, or at some point on his drive to Maine 538 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:12,320 something happened or occurred to him that caused him to turn around and drive all 539 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,480 the way back to the Burlington metro area and then pick the Courier's car back 540 00:44:16,599 --> 00:44:22,480 up, which makes no sense and would be incredibly high risk and stupid. 541 00:44:22,559 --> 00:44:28,400 The two fifty three siding also coincides with sightings at two forty one Pearl Street, 542 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,400 the apartment complex where the Courier's car was eventually found. The earliest their 543 00:44:32,519 --> 00:44:37,000 car can be placed in that parking lot by residents and eye witnesses is four 544 00:44:37,079 --> 00:44:43,280 PM, an hour after the siding at the Home Depot parking lot. Now 545 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,000 that doesn't mean it couldn't have been there earlier, just that no one saw 546 00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:52,960 it there until at least four p m. But it's worth noting that four 547 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:57,800 people confirmed they did see it, and all four confirmed they saw it at 548 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:06,400 some point around or after four pm. Interestingly, an employee at the Williston 549 00:45:06,519 --> 00:45:12,400 best Buy commented on a Keys YouTube video that he had seen Keys at his 550 00:45:12,559 --> 00:45:16,360 best Buy on either June eighth or June ninth of twenty eleven, that Keys 551 00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:21,639 was rude to him, then tried to intimidate him by staring and scowling at 552 00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:25,320 him for close to ten seconds. Keysen entered the store, roamed around for 553 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:30,159 a while, used the bathroom, and left. The Williston Best Buy is 554 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:37,119 just two blocks from the Williston home depot. Another man on Reddit described encountering 555 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:43,000 Keys asleep at a bench in a public wooded area around this same time, 556 00:45:43,679 --> 00:45:50,199 again in Williston. And while Williston is not en root from Essex to Johnson, 557 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,719 it is, however, in root from Essex to bangor Maine, a 558 00:45:53,760 --> 00:46:00,440 long route two the best and most daunting. Some of all this came from 559 00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:07,960 Kaz. If Jordan's theory is correct, or even partially correct, then that 560 00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:12,559 changes everything. The story from the beginning with the couriers has always been so 561 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,719 nice and neat, And what I feel like I want to do at this 562 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,840 point is go back and listen to how that compares to the story of Samantha 563 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,840 Koenig. The brutality of the way that he described what happened to the couriers 564 00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,880 and the way that he did it. And then you're talking about taking two 565 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:30,360 people into a house and putting them in separate places in that house. And 566 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:36,199 you're only one person, so you either have to immediately incapacitate one person so 567 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:39,119 you can commence with committing crimes against the second person, or hope that that 568 00:46:39,159 --> 00:46:43,960 one person doesn't get out of any restraints you've put on them. It just 569 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:47,519 seems riskier. You're putting people into a structure that has more room to move 570 00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:52,719 around than what he did with Samantha, which was put her into a very 571 00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:58,039 small and contained area. He sent these detectives on a wild goose chase right 572 00:46:58,119 --> 00:47:02,800 before he died by suicide as his final fuck you. We have to keep 573 00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:07,480 an open mind about all this, but in doing so, we also have 574 00:47:07,559 --> 00:47:12,599 to keep an open mind about how this could change how we view anything else 575 00:47:12,639 --> 00:47:22,719 that he said that we think we may have corroborated or relied on. And 576 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,599 as we began to try to make sense of what these lies and discoveries might 577 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:32,280 mean, we quickly stumbled onto two even bigger lies and discoveries in New England. 578 00:47:36,199 --> 00:48:01,199 And they both start in Constable, New York. Why do I come 579 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:12,360 here? Why do I keep returning? It's not you haunting me, it's 580 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:22,400 my mind disturbing Why do I come here? Why do I keep returning? 581 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:38,960 It's not you haunting me, It's my mind disturbing, disturbing peace, disturbing 582 00:48:39,840 --> 00:49:04,719 peace, disturbing mood, dreams, disturbing dreams. Why do I come here? 583 00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:14,679 Why do I keep Britton? It's not you haunting me, it's my 584 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:25,159 mind disturb Why do I come here? Why do I keep Britton? It's 585 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:37,639 not you haunting me, It's my mind disturbing, disturbing pea. This episode 586 00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,039 was written, researched, edited, and produced by me Josh Hallmark, with 587 00:49:42,119 --> 00:49:45,559 additional research by Kim k, Jordan Taylor, Shana Lensky, Michelle Tooker, 588 00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:50,840 and Kaz. This episode featured Jordan Taylor, Shana Lensky, Kim Ky, 589 00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:54,519 and Michelle Tooker, and it was made possible by the following Patreon producers Amelia 590 00:49:54,519 --> 00:49:59,320 Hancock, Amy Basel and Marie Cash and at El, Ash Fish, Benjamin 591 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,559 Choppa, funk Zy, Jensen Richardson, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Heather 592 00:50:01,639 --> 00:50:06,000 Horton, Wheedon, Jessica, Ali Hodsig, Jillian Atollig, Jordan good Night, 593 00:50:06,079 --> 00:50:09,400 Kathleen Studter, Kendall c Charisma Rodriguez Kimberly, k Lona, Lauren f 594 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:14,559 Lindsay Curtis, Lindsay Lucifer, Linley, tuscoff Manolas Bulakos, Nicol and Dennis 595 00:50:14,559 --> 00:50:17,159 Henry, Sarah King, s C. Shelley Brewer, Sherry D Tuesday Woodworth, 596 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,880 Vicky Russell, Zachignadowitz, Warren, Beth McNally, John Comery, Jordan 597 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,679 Taylor, Sarah C, Shawna. Harden and Lydia Fiedler. Thank you to 598 00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:30,400 Studio Both Anne's newest Patreon supporters kim Y, Janis b Teresa H, Michael 599 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,679 j S. Megan O, Emily B, l, Jmie P, Dylan 600 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,079 b Addie, m Jena Kay and Patricia L. To support the investigation and 601 00:50:37,119 --> 00:50:42,920 get AD free episodes, go to Patreon dot com slash Studio both And. 602 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,239 This episode included music by William Hellfire, Sarage, Cherramisonov, jaaskel Res, 603 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:55,880 Mike Vinola, and Radical Face with featured music by Alpero del Mar. Why 604 00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:06,320 do wor keep greaton to something that's long gone, to something that's all does? 605 00:51:07,159 --> 00:51:15,840 Why do I come here? Why do I keep returning to something that's 606 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:28,480 long gone, to something that's all does? All dust, oldest all dose 607 00:51:29,559 --> 00:52:10,880 oldus ohes Ah does all, does oh,