When we think of Oklahoma over in the UK, we think of a thigh
slapping musical and people dancing around stagecoaches. What we don't think of a religious
schools, particularly, which is so it's odd to discover of our ABC news
that the statewide Virtual Charter School board in Oklahoma City voted three to two to
approve an application of a Catholic school, a saying Isadore of Seville isador the
one used to eat gross things virtual charter school. It's an interesting idea that
they are trying to push here, that you can have a lovely religious school.
And I'm from a country that has lots of religious schools, and I've
spent a lot of time fighting those religious schools to try and get rid of
them, because the idea is you keep them secular by saying yes, but
you ought to take everybody. Can't just take Catholics. And of course they
like that because they get to proselytize and pretend that they art. But Cindy,
do you have religious schools where you are Yes, yes we have.
In France there are, but they have to buy a very street set of
rules, so if they don't, they will be forced out of business basically
because they need that public money, so they can't enforced religion. They end
they have to follow the curriculum. But yeah, you said they try to
sneak a religion. Actually, the article says that the ardioss of Oklauma said
in the Vision and Purpose of the Organization section of the application that and I
quote, the Catholic School participates in the evangelisig sorry, evangelizaying mission of the
Church and is the privileged environment in which Christian education is carried out. So
yeah, the enforcement of religion is pretty clear here. On the other hand,
I don't think this will go very far. I think the very second
someone will push this to quote it will be ended. Now. This will
most likely be pushed to the Supreme Court, and it will be very interesting
to see what happens then, because it's a very interesting topic on the errand
you wanted to say something, Yeah, it seems clear cut to me that
this is definitely a problem with separation of religion and government. Unfortunately, I
am not very optimistic about our current Supreme Court knocking this down, reversing this.
But to move on a little bit, you often hear people religious people
say that, well, isn't secutism just another form of religion. Isn't it
just a different religion? Why can't we have both teach both secularism and our
religious views. You know, why can't we teach creationism and evolution? And
my response to that is because secularism is based on what you on facts.
It's based on the truth, the best way that we know the world to
be the way the world works, and that's what we want to teach people.
We want to teach people the way the world works in fact. Whereas
but when religion, there's this faith aspect to things, where you also teach
people to believe things and know things that aren't necessarily true and that you have
to have faith to believe them. And so I don't think that secularism and
religion is a religion. Secularism is is just a way of looking at the
world based on facts instead of faith. Kelly M. Yeah. One of
the things that I'm really was wondering about is since we're gonna Oklahoma is going
to finance a Catholic school? Are they now going to finance a madrasa if
somebody wants one? Are they going to finance a girl kool a Yeshiva.
That's what I want to know, and I think those questions need to be
answered yes, yes, because if any of them are answered, no,
the NA shouldn't be funding a Christian school either. One big thing I see
happening here is Catholics and other Oklahoma Christians using this episode to fuel their persecution
complex. I can hear them now, you can't even let they won't even
let us open a school in Oklahoma, which of course isn't the truth,
but you know, that's the way that it's going to be presented. And
I'm afraid that I'm positive this will be struck down in the courts. I
am positive it will be. But what I'm afraid it's going to do.
It's it's going to fuel that persecution um complex. It's gonna they're gonna use
it as an excuse to show why Christians are being so the take they have
their be having their rights taken away so bad. I just totally had a
brain for it there. And that's that's what I think. The biggest time
that this is going to do. Doctor hurt You want to you want to
follow from up there? Well, I'm just thinking about it. There's only
one argument that I think they may have that would they could take to any
court, and it's this the school is a virtual school. And I can
see them saying, well, the thing is, there's a lot of Christian
parents don't want their children going to state school, so they're being home school.
So surely where the better option. At least we've got professional teachers and
resources and riculum and plans. We're not just someone's mum who thinks are our
teacher and knows what they're doing. I think that is the only argument I
can sustain it with. I mean, it says not a good argument because
you know, send them to school. Where I'm from, by law,
you have to send these kids to school. There's no homeschooling. You get
fine if someone was even jailed wads for not sending a kid to an actual
school. But I think that's the only argument I can think of. But
I do agree completely. I do think, from what I know of American
law is going to get squished. It's another argument they would have is that
it is a charter school, so it's voluntary. You're not your kids don't
have to go to a charter school. That it's more like an alternative to
the public school, So that's an argument that they could use in court.
I still don't think that it's going to work because of the state funding.
So that's that's the only thing. Cindy, do you want to you want
to follow up. Yeah, it's just one more step towards fascism. We're
talking. We've been talking about this a couple of times recently, this very
very strong tendence towards on one hand, fascism and the other hand m sanity
and a theocracy. So yeah, it's it's very scary US. Uh,
it's very strong, this movement. This movement is extremely strong in the US.
And on the other hand, I've seen the number that I think it's
what sixteen point three percent of the population identifies as Christians something like that.
Um, and and and still these people have the upper hand right now there.
They have the majority majority in in government, in culture, in in
everywhere. And I just despite being a minority, defied being the oldest category
of people as well, I don't see how they can still win every day.
And and that puzzles me, and that scares me. Yeah, that
was a president in what rich was saying. And you know, I don't
have a I don't have a problem with a religious organization running the school as
long as there's no religion in the school. You know, a lot of
when I was in when I was still believing there. Like I've mentioned earlier,
there's this concept of being in the world but not of the world,
And a lot of people homeschool their kids, not necessarily because what is being
taught, but because of the environment that their students are, and they don't
want them around, you know, the sex, and the violence and just
the worldliness of the of the schools. They want them separate so they're not
subject to that. And I wouldn't have a problem with a school with a
religious organization having a school as long as they meet the same standards at the
public schools do, as long as there's a separation between religion and government,
and then they can have their own set of you know, behavioral rules at
the school that they want to that they want to keep their kids too,
just as long as they're not preaching faith. Rich. Yeah, I agree.
I mean in Europe, as with France the UK, if we do
have religious schools, even though we have many few religious people and we have
strict curriculum that they must follow. They can't just so, well, we're
not going to bother them with evolution. We won't let them. They can't
just say we're not going to bother a big, bad cosmology. We won't
let them. They after this is a curriculum, and you stick to it.
If you don't, your school can be shut down. We can replace
the staff in the all sorts of so in that way, if it's you
know, that kind of thing might work. But there's a there's an old
saying that I was reminded of recently, which is the answer to the question
of why do they still have the power of this group, And it is
the world is run by the people who show up, and they show up.
They show up the voting booth, they show up, the school councils,
they show up to all these things, and the rest of them don't.
And it's a shine. Really, of course, we really need to
start showing up. Yeah, okay, I just want to address a few
things. Um one, errand that was great. You're brought up being in
the world, not over the world, and yet here they are being over
the world, pushing this through a state legislature. So I find it really
ironic that they and It's something that I've always found ironic when I hear Christians
say it and then they go and get themselves involved in politics. Just doesn't
It doesn't make any sense to me in the long run. I had something
to say about what you said to doctor Rich, but I've forgotten now,
unfortunately. And one of who I see is the big losers in this whole
thing is the taxpayers of Oklahoma. The Attorney General of Oklahoma has already come
out. He has said this law is unconstitutional. It's not going to stand.
We know it's not going to stand. But the state will have to
pay for the defense, and they're gonna have to pay for the prosecution on
all legal cases over it. They're paying on both sides, and it is
literally throwing money away on something that we already know has a foregone conclusion.
It is strictly stated in the United States Constitution that this is not legal.
The governor came out in favor of it, but he hasn't explained to the
taxpayers what it's gonna cost them, what it's going to take to implement it.
And he knows full well, just like the state's attorney knows that,
and he's been warned about the legal reasons why it's not gonna work, And
I don't know why they're just pushing this through because, like I said,
who's getting who's and screwed by it? The taxpayers? Aaron, did you
have something? Yeah, I'm also constantly amazed at their people's attempted to make
the Are this a Christian country? This Christian nationalism? Because we should.
Every every religious person should value the separation of religion and government more than anybody
else because you're not always going to be the winner. You're all not always
going to be on top. And when you're not on top, you don't
want someone shoving their religion down on you. So don't shove your religion down
on me. Let people mind your own business, Let people live the way
they want to live. If you don't like what they're doing, then don't
participate in it, don't support it, but mind your own business. And
let's all we should all get together and value the separation of religion and government
because it just makes everybody safer and makes everybody's better, It improves everybody's lives.
Cindy, Yeah, I don't know if you have ever tried but tried
to talk someone out of the belief that this is not to a Christian country.
That's going to be very hub I've tried a couple of times, but
the amount of disinformation behind this belief it's astonishing, uh. And it's extremely
hard to to prove someone and to make them accept it that this is not
a Christian country, and they will go to any information and yet the information,
emation and fact that you will be able to present, they won't change
their mind because because that's the basis of their justistication to want a theocracy.
If you remove the disbelief, then they have no education anymore and they can't
allow that. So, yeah, it's I don't think it's it's very very
effective the rich. Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it. And it's this
idea that they have. It's probably I mean, well, I think it
is. In this country. We had an ex so much Bishop of Canterpray
once write an article very good at brilliant writing about how the UK is not
a Christian country, is a post Christian country and it makes a very good
arguments and he said that generally everything here is secular and it's good that it's
secular. Religion can do its thing without interference from government. One of the
people I used to do the anti religious schools thing was actually a chaplain at
a university because they don't want a president set where government is interfering with the
church. Because this swings both ways. They seem to forget that. You
know, you get your theocricy and all of a sudden, the leader of
the country you're in is messing with your church as well. They have that
power too, and they've got to remember that that's a danger, you know
what I mean, And they seem to miss that. They seem to miss
that important factor. It's yeah, and I don't know many people. And
it's ironic because technically I do live in a theocricy because the head of my
state, King Charles the Third, is the head of the national church as
well, but we don't act like one, and we have archbishops of the
country's say we're not one. But yeah, it's a ranny cry to all
signs of when this fight for it to separate religion and government isn't just an
atheist. It's a thing that everybody should get behind because it helps boutside staying
you're lying. Basically, it increases liberty, right, that's what Yeah,
that's really what we're fighting for. And what I'm fighting for is the liberty
to live my life the way I want to, and the liberty to let
other people live the lives that they want to. As long as you're not
harming me or harming others. I don't care live your life. It's none
on my business. And they wanted to kind of segue on what Cindy said
about this being a Christian country. I was raised a Latterday Saint Mormon,
and they have a really interesting view on this on the United States. They
believe that this country was founded by God for the purposes of the so the
Church could come forth and you know, restore the truth to the country.
And so if you talk to Laturday Saints there, they actually are they're very
patriotic, and they're very they very much love the Constitution. They support the
Constitution, and hopefully that is true and it's it's it's a really interesting view,
Kelly. I just wanted to talk about the separation of church and state
for a second, because everybody's brought it up, and I don't think a
lot of people in the United States really understand why it's in our constitution,
and I think Cindy and doctor Rich probably have a better understanding. It's because
they come from countries, and our founding fathers came from countries where we fought
wars over religion, the sixteenth century wars of religion in France, for example,
all the things that happened during the Tudor times in England with between Protestants
and Catholics being persecuting each other back and forth, and that was within the
memory of our founding fathers, and that separation at church and state was put
there not to protect the state, but to protect the churches. And I
don't think they understand that. So, yeah, doctor Ritz, did you
want to add something to it? It's agree with you. I think Cindy's
got something exciting life. Yes, One of the thing that they don't understand
is that they would benefit from separation of church and state as well. Because
what they don't understand is that Christianity is it comes in in thousand flavors.
How many sects of Christians is three thousands. So if you have a Catholic
president and he wants to impose Catholicism to everyone, then what do Protestants Protestants
do another war like it happened four hundred years ago. Now, they won't
like it if someone else even slightly different than them. If you have a
tolerant Christian in charge, then they won't like it. Some of them won't
like if you have someone who is very very strong, like like the former
vice president for example, other people won't like it because they won't believe the
same thing that he does. So that's something that they don't understand that protects
them as well. Yes, no, thank you very much everyone. What
a great conversation we're having here today. And you know what, I want
to thank everybody else for watching in sending and if you want to hear more
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