WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.560 When we think of Oklahoma over in the UK, we think of a thigh 2 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:08.439 slapping musical and people dancing around stagecoaches. What we don't think of a religious 3 00:00:08.439 --> 00:00:13.400 schools, particularly, which is so it's odd to discover of our ABC news 4 00:00:13.439 --> 00:00:17.800 that the statewide Virtual Charter School board in Oklahoma City voted three to two to 5 00:00:17.839 --> 00:00:23.000 approve an application of a Catholic school, a saying Isadore of Seville isador the 6 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:28.839 one used to eat gross things virtual charter school. It's an interesting idea that 7 00:00:28.879 --> 00:00:33.359 they are trying to push here, that you can have a lovely religious school. 8 00:00:33.399 --> 00:00:36.079 And I'm from a country that has lots of religious schools, and I've 9 00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:39.119 spent a lot of time fighting those religious schools to try and get rid of 10 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:42.600 them, because the idea is you keep them secular by saying yes, but 11 00:00:42.600 --> 00:00:46.799 you ought to take everybody. Can't just take Catholics. And of course they 12 00:00:46.840 --> 00:00:50.840 like that because they get to proselytize and pretend that they art. But Cindy, 13 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:53.479 do you have religious schools where you are Yes, yes we have. 14 00:00:54.479 --> 00:01:00.840 In France there are, but they have to buy a very street set of 15 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:06.640 rules, so if they don't, they will be forced out of business basically 16 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:11.200 because they need that public money, so they can't enforced religion. They end 17 00:01:11.280 --> 00:01:17.920 they have to follow the curriculum. But yeah, you said they try to 18 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:23.799 sneak a religion. Actually, the article says that the ardioss of Oklauma said 19 00:01:23.920 --> 00:01:27.760 in the Vision and Purpose of the Organization section of the application that and I 20 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:34.680 quote, the Catholic School participates in the evangelisig sorry, evangelizaying mission of the 21 00:01:34.760 --> 00:01:41.079 Church and is the privileged environment in which Christian education is carried out. So 22 00:01:41.359 --> 00:01:46.959 yeah, the enforcement of religion is pretty clear here. On the other hand, 23 00:01:47.120 --> 00:01:49.640 I don't think this will go very far. I think the very second 24 00:01:51.120 --> 00:01:55.799 someone will push this to quote it will be ended. Now. This will 25 00:01:55.920 --> 00:01:59.640 most likely be pushed to the Supreme Court, and it will be very interesting 26 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:05.480 to see what happens then, because it's a very interesting topic on the errand 27 00:02:05.640 --> 00:02:07.159 you wanted to say something, Yeah, it seems clear cut to me that 28 00:02:07.199 --> 00:02:13.400 this is definitely a problem with separation of religion and government. Unfortunately, I 29 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:17.639 am not very optimistic about our current Supreme Court knocking this down, reversing this. 30 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:23.759 But to move on a little bit, you often hear people religious people 31 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:25.719 say that, well, isn't secutism just another form of religion. Isn't it 32 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:30.560 just a different religion? Why can't we have both teach both secularism and our 33 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:34.960 religious views. You know, why can't we teach creationism and evolution? And 34 00:02:35.080 --> 00:02:38.319 my response to that is because secularism is based on what you on facts. 35 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:43.639 It's based on the truth, the best way that we know the world to 36 00:02:43.719 --> 00:02:46.360 be the way the world works, and that's what we want to teach people. 37 00:02:46.360 --> 00:02:50.680 We want to teach people the way the world works in fact. Whereas 38 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:54.280 but when religion, there's this faith aspect to things, where you also teach 39 00:02:54.319 --> 00:03:00.199 people to believe things and know things that aren't necessarily true and that you have 40 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:02.520 to have faith to believe them. And so I don't think that secularism and 41 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:07.240 religion is a religion. Secularism is is just a way of looking at the 42 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.439 world based on facts instead of faith. Kelly M. Yeah. One of 43 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:15.000 the things that I'm really was wondering about is since we're gonna Oklahoma is going 44 00:03:15.039 --> 00:03:20.080 to finance a Catholic school? Are they now going to finance a madrasa if 45 00:03:20.120 --> 00:03:23.960 somebody wants one? Are they going to finance a girl kool a Yeshiva. 46 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:27.400 That's what I want to know, and I think those questions need to be 47 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:30.039 answered yes, yes, because if any of them are answered, no, 48 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:35.759 the NA shouldn't be funding a Christian school either. One big thing I see 49 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:43.560 happening here is Catholics and other Oklahoma Christians using this episode to fuel their persecution 50 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:46.319 complex. I can hear them now, you can't even let they won't even 51 00:03:46.400 --> 00:03:51.000 let us open a school in Oklahoma, which of course isn't the truth, 52 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:53.800 but you know, that's the way that it's going to be presented. And 53 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.680 I'm afraid that I'm positive this will be struck down in the courts. I 54 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.120 am positive it will be. But what I'm afraid it's going to do. 55 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:04.879 It's it's going to fuel that persecution um complex. It's gonna they're gonna use 56 00:04:04.919 --> 00:04:11.879 it as an excuse to show why Christians are being so the take they have 57 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:15.599 their be having their rights taken away so bad. I just totally had a 58 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:18.079 brain for it there. And that's that's what I think. The biggest time 59 00:04:18.079 --> 00:04:20.439 that this is going to do. Doctor hurt You want to you want to 60 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.480 follow from up there? Well, I'm just thinking about it. There's only 61 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:28.279 one argument that I think they may have that would they could take to any 62 00:04:28.360 --> 00:04:31.360 court, and it's this the school is a virtual school. And I can 63 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:34.639 see them saying, well, the thing is, there's a lot of Christian 64 00:04:34.720 --> 00:04:40.160 parents don't want their children going to state school, so they're being home school. 65 00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:44.439 So surely where the better option. At least we've got professional teachers and 66 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:49.079 resources and riculum and plans. We're not just someone's mum who thinks are our 67 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:54.639 teacher and knows what they're doing. I think that is the only argument I 68 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:57.839 can sustain it with. I mean, it says not a good argument because 69 00:04:57.959 --> 00:05:01.399 you know, send them to school. Where I'm from, by law, 70 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:04.639 you have to send these kids to school. There's no homeschooling. You get 71 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:09.759 fine if someone was even jailed wads for not sending a kid to an actual 72 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:12.639 school. But I think that's the only argument I can think of. But 73 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:15.079 I do agree completely. I do think, from what I know of American 74 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:20.480 law is going to get squished. It's another argument they would have is that 75 00:05:20.560 --> 00:05:25.079 it is a charter school, so it's voluntary. You're not your kids don't 76 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:28.800 have to go to a charter school. That it's more like an alternative to 77 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:30.879 the public school, So that's an argument that they could use in court. 78 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:33.839 I still don't think that it's going to work because of the state funding. 79 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:38.040 So that's that's the only thing. Cindy, do you want to you want 80 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:43.360 to follow up. Yeah, it's just one more step towards fascism. We're 81 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:47.920 talking. We've been talking about this a couple of times recently, this very 82 00:05:48.040 --> 00:05:54.639 very strong tendence towards on one hand, fascism and the other hand m sanity 83 00:05:54.759 --> 00:06:00.759 and a theocracy. So yeah, it's it's very scary US. Uh, 84 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:04.399 it's very strong, this movement. This movement is extremely strong in the US. 85 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:09.160 And on the other hand, I've seen the number that I think it's 86 00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:14.800 what sixteen point three percent of the population identifies as Christians something like that. 87 00:06:15.079 --> 00:06:19.600 Um, and and and still these people have the upper hand right now there. 88 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:25.600 They have the majority majority in in government, in culture, in in 89 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:31.959 everywhere. And I just despite being a minority, defied being the oldest category 90 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:36.560 of people as well, I don't see how they can still win every day. 91 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.160 And and that puzzles me, and that scares me. Yeah, that 92 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:45.199 was a president in what rich was saying. And you know, I don't 93 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.839 have a I don't have a problem with a religious organization running the school as 94 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:50.279 long as there's no religion in the school. You know, a lot of 95 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:56.920 when I was in when I was still believing there. Like I've mentioned earlier, 96 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.560 there's this concept of being in the world but not of the world, 97 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.079 And a lot of people homeschool their kids, not necessarily because what is being 98 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.639 taught, but because of the environment that their students are, and they don't 99 00:07:06.680 --> 00:07:13.360 want them around, you know, the sex, and the violence and just 100 00:07:13.600 --> 00:07:16.920 the worldliness of the of the schools. They want them separate so they're not 101 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:20.680 subject to that. And I wouldn't have a problem with a school with a 102 00:07:20.800 --> 00:07:25.600 religious organization having a school as long as they meet the same standards at the 103 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:29.360 public schools do, as long as there's a separation between religion and government, 104 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:32.279 and then they can have their own set of you know, behavioral rules at 105 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.360 the school that they want to that they want to keep their kids too, 106 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:40.360 just as long as they're not preaching faith. Rich. Yeah, I agree. 107 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.639 I mean in Europe, as with France the UK, if we do 108 00:07:43.720 --> 00:07:48.680 have religious schools, even though we have many few religious people and we have 109 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:53.759 strict curriculum that they must follow. They can't just so, well, we're 110 00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:56.439 not going to bother them with evolution. We won't let them. They can't 111 00:07:56.439 --> 00:07:59.160 just say we're not going to bother a big, bad cosmology. We won't 112 00:07:59.240 --> 00:08:01.959 let them. They after this is a curriculum, and you stick to it. 113 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.839 If you don't, your school can be shut down. We can replace 114 00:08:03.839 --> 00:08:07.720 the staff in the all sorts of so in that way, if it's you 115 00:08:07.759 --> 00:08:11.600 know, that kind of thing might work. But there's a there's an old 116 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:13.759 saying that I was reminded of recently, which is the answer to the question 117 00:08:13.759 --> 00:08:16.240 of why do they still have the power of this group, And it is 118 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:20.279 the world is run by the people who show up, and they show up. 119 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.079 They show up the voting booth, they show up, the school councils, 120 00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:26.800 they show up to all these things, and the rest of them don't. 121 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:30.519 And it's a shine. Really, of course, we really need to 122 00:08:30.519 --> 00:08:33.879 start showing up. Yeah, okay, I just want to address a few 123 00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:37.120 things. Um one, errand that was great. You're brought up being in 124 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.360 the world, not over the world, and yet here they are being over 125 00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:45.679 the world, pushing this through a state legislature. So I find it really 126 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:50.759 ironic that they and It's something that I've always found ironic when I hear Christians 127 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.200 say it and then they go and get themselves involved in politics. Just doesn't 128 00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:58.559 It doesn't make any sense to me in the long run. I had something 129 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:01.000 to say about what you said to doctor Rich, but I've forgotten now, 130 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.639 unfortunately. And one of who I see is the big losers in this whole 131 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:11.360 thing is the taxpayers of Oklahoma. The Attorney General of Oklahoma has already come 132 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:15.840 out. He has said this law is unconstitutional. It's not going to stand. 133 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:18.360 We know it's not going to stand. But the state will have to 134 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.799 pay for the defense, and they're gonna have to pay for the prosecution on 135 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.559 all legal cases over it. They're paying on both sides, and it is 136 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:33.159 literally throwing money away on something that we already know has a foregone conclusion. 137 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.600 It is strictly stated in the United States Constitution that this is not legal. 138 00:09:39.039 --> 00:09:41.559 The governor came out in favor of it, but he hasn't explained to the 139 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:46.080 taxpayers what it's gonna cost them, what it's going to take to implement it. 140 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:50.639 And he knows full well, just like the state's attorney knows that, 141 00:09:50.879 --> 00:09:54.759 and he's been warned about the legal reasons why it's not gonna work, And 142 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:58.360 I don't know why they're just pushing this through because, like I said, 143 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.879 who's getting who's and screwed by it? The taxpayers? Aaron, did you 144 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:07.320 have something? Yeah, I'm also constantly amazed at their people's attempted to make 145 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:13.399 the Are this a Christian country? This Christian nationalism? Because we should. 146 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:18.279 Every every religious person should value the separation of religion and government more than anybody 147 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.759 else because you're not always going to be the winner. You're all not always 148 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:24.080 going to be on top. And when you're not on top, you don't 149 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.279 want someone shoving their religion down on you. So don't shove your religion down 150 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.440 on me. Let people mind your own business, Let people live the way 151 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:35.600 they want to live. If you don't like what they're doing, then don't 152 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:37.799 participate in it, don't support it, but mind your own business. And 153 00:10:37.879 --> 00:10:43.399 let's all we should all get together and value the separation of religion and government 154 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.399 because it just makes everybody safer and makes everybody's better, It improves everybody's lives. 155 00:10:48.720 --> 00:10:52.159 Cindy, Yeah, I don't know if you have ever tried but tried 156 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:56.480 to talk someone out of the belief that this is not to a Christian country. 157 00:10:56.600 --> 00:11:00.240 That's going to be very hub I've tried a couple of times, but 158 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:05.440 the amount of disinformation behind this belief it's astonishing, uh. And it's extremely 159 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:11.039 hard to to prove someone and to make them accept it that this is not 160 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:16.919 a Christian country, and they will go to any information and yet the information, 161 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.120 emation and fact that you will be able to present, they won't change 162 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:26.840 their mind because because that's the basis of their justistication to want a theocracy. 163 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:31.519 If you remove the disbelief, then they have no education anymore and they can't 164 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:37.080 allow that. So, yeah, it's I don't think it's it's very very 165 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.879 effective the rich. Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it. And it's this 166 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:46.480 idea that they have. It's probably I mean, well, I think it 167 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:48.720 is. In this country. We had an ex so much Bishop of Canterpray 168 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:54.519 once write an article very good at brilliant writing about how the UK is not 169 00:11:54.720 --> 00:11:58.879 a Christian country, is a post Christian country and it makes a very good 170 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:03.240 arguments and he said that generally everything here is secular and it's good that it's 171 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.639 secular. Religion can do its thing without interference from government. One of the 172 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:13.279 people I used to do the anti religious schools thing was actually a chaplain at 173 00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:18.159 a university because they don't want a president set where government is interfering with the 174 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.600 church. Because this swings both ways. They seem to forget that. You 175 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.799 know, you get your theocricy and all of a sudden, the leader of 176 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:28.840 the country you're in is messing with your church as well. They have that 177 00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:31.559 power too, and they've got to remember that that's a danger, you know 178 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.480 what I mean, And they seem to miss that. They seem to miss 179 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:41.519 that important factor. It's yeah, and I don't know many people. And 180 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:45.240 it's ironic because technically I do live in a theocricy because the head of my 181 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:48.679 state, King Charles the Third, is the head of the national church as 182 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:52.240 well, but we don't act like one, and we have archbishops of the 183 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:54.720 country's say we're not one. But yeah, it's a ranny cry to all 184 00:12:54.720 --> 00:13:01.559 signs of when this fight for it to separate religion and government isn't just an 185 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:05.200 atheist. It's a thing that everybody should get behind because it helps boutside staying 186 00:13:05.240 --> 00:13:09.279 you're lying. Basically, it increases liberty, right, that's what Yeah, 187 00:13:09.320 --> 00:13:13.240 that's really what we're fighting for. And what I'm fighting for is the liberty 188 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.080 to live my life the way I want to, and the liberty to let 189 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:18.679 other people live the lives that they want to. As long as you're not 190 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.200 harming me or harming others. I don't care live your life. It's none 191 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:26.679 on my business. And they wanted to kind of segue on what Cindy said 192 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:30.279 about this being a Christian country. I was raised a Latterday Saint Mormon, 193 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.120 and they have a really interesting view on this on the United States. They 194 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:39.159 believe that this country was founded by God for the purposes of the so the 195 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:41.720 Church could come forth and you know, restore the truth to the country. 196 00:13:41.799 --> 00:13:46.799 And so if you talk to Laturday Saints there, they actually are they're very 197 00:13:46.840 --> 00:13:52.679 patriotic, and they're very they very much love the Constitution. They support the 198 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:58.080 Constitution, and hopefully that is true and it's it's it's a really interesting view, 199 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.120 Kelly. I just wanted to talk about the separation of church and state 200 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.639 for a second, because everybody's brought it up, and I don't think a 201 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:11.879 lot of people in the United States really understand why it's in our constitution, 202 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.240 and I think Cindy and doctor Rich probably have a better understanding. It's because 203 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:22.759 they come from countries, and our founding fathers came from countries where we fought 204 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:28.120 wars over religion, the sixteenth century wars of religion in France, for example, 205 00:14:28.000 --> 00:14:33.279 all the things that happened during the Tudor times in England with between Protestants 206 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:37.799 and Catholics being persecuting each other back and forth, and that was within the 207 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:43.799 memory of our founding fathers, and that separation at church and state was put 208 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:46.919 there not to protect the state, but to protect the churches. And I 209 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.720 don't think they understand that. So, yeah, doctor Ritz, did you 210 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:56.639 want to add something to it? It's agree with you. I think Cindy's 211 00:14:56.679 --> 00:15:01.519 got something exciting life. Yes, One of the thing that they don't understand 212 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:05.080 is that they would benefit from separation of church and state as well. Because 213 00:15:05.240 --> 00:15:11.240 what they don't understand is that Christianity is it comes in in thousand flavors. 214 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:15.480 How many sects of Christians is three thousands. So if you have a Catholic 215 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:22.519 president and he wants to impose Catholicism to everyone, then what do Protestants Protestants 216 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:26.960 do another war like it happened four hundred years ago. Now, they won't 217 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:33.200 like it if someone else even slightly different than them. If you have a 218 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.120 tolerant Christian in charge, then they won't like it. Some of them won't 219 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:41.600 like if you have someone who is very very strong, like like the former 220 00:15:41.799 --> 00:15:46.360 vice president for example, other people won't like it because they won't believe the 221 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.639 same thing that he does. So that's something that they don't understand that protects 222 00:15:50.679 --> 00:15:54.879 them as well. Yes, no, thank you very much everyone. What 223 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:58.159 a great conversation we're having here today. And you know what, I want 224 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:00.559 to thank everybody else for watching in sending and if you want to hear more 225 00:16:00.600 --> 00:16:03.960 from the nonprofits, you can click here.