WEBVTT 1 00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:25.640 Hey guys, welcome back to Blood and Dust. It's been a while. 2 00:00:26.039 --> 00:00:30.120 Um, and this is Julie. We got Matt and we got another person 3 00:00:30.199 --> 00:00:34.039 who you might recognize. The voice you want to say, Hi, Hello, 4 00:00:35.000 --> 00:00:38.679 that's Mike. It's been a while since he's been on, but it's 5 00:00:38.759 --> 00:00:42.520 been a while, Yes, it has. It's really good to hear your 6 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:45.679 voice. Thank you, well, thank you for the invite, thank you 7 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:49.759 for bringing me back into the posse. Yeah, thanks for helping us thought 8 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:53.640 well, Justine kind of handling some stuff on his the home front. Yeah, 9 00:00:53.679 --> 00:00:57.479 I definitely want to shout out to the legend himself, justin Rummel. 10 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:03.679 I appreciate the heads up and I'm glad to help out. Absolutely. We 11 00:01:03.799 --> 00:01:07.599 just really appreciate. It's awesome to get together with you. I have to. 12 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:10.560 I have to give props where props are due. I mean, it's 13 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:15.439 obviously I've been listening in this whole time and every episode, and it's it's 14 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:21.599 impressive. I mean, the three of you have done fantastically together. Bringing 15 00:01:21.640 --> 00:01:26.120 in Matt, I couldn't ask for a better replacement there. He's done really 16 00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:30.280 well and this thing has gotten better and better and better every episode. And 17 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:34.519 I'm really impressed. You all have put a whole lot into that, I'm 18 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.760 sure, and and it's been fun to listen, fun to follow along. 19 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:42.079 Yeah, and I'm kind of going through my phone right now to the last 20 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:48.920 episode that we recorded or actually released. Give me two seconds, I can 21 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.560 tell you Bloody Bill Anderson number one. That was it. That was it 22 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:56.879 for us? Oh you mean for y'all? Okay, yeah, for the 23 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.280 for the whole show nowork, I'm sorry, I remember Bloody Bill. I 24 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:05.000 remember that that was cutting off heads and put them on different bodies and you 25 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:09.759 know, um no, but I just kind of wanted to give you guys 26 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:13.919 an update. I know we've been posting a little bit on Facebook, but 27 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:15.879 for those who are not on Facebook or and I don't know if we've mentioned 28 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:21.560 anything on Instagram, but our last show was Bass Reeves and that was released 29 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:25.280 December seventh, and obviously it's been a little while, but we've just had 30 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:30.039 a couple m health things going on, and then the holidays came up, 31 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:36.080 and then more health or more work um developments happened, so we just kind 32 00:02:36.080 --> 00:02:38.840 of had to pause for a little bit to kind of get everything back on 33 00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:43.400 the home front the way it needed to be and I apologize for the delay. 34 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:49.599 We are not stopping again for another year and then restarting again and restarting 35 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:53.919 again with a mystery guest. Yes, so we're we're back and uh, 36 00:02:54.120 --> 00:03:00.319 Matt, do you want to introduce our our topic surely Darky or Dirky Parkhurs 37 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:09.400 eighteen twelve to eighteen seventy nine. Yes, And this person is really hard 38 00:03:09.560 --> 00:03:14.240 to kind of get any information, So this episode might be a little shorter. 39 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:17.759 But we did a lot of digging and for a lot of months as 40 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:23.240 a good tell so we did the best we could and correct information as well, 41 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:30.400 because every piece on her old I just gave her away. That's okay, 42 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:34.919 we're gonna go. We're gonna get into it anyways, I might as 43 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:39.240 well dive on and Yep, Charlotte Darky Parkhurs, Like I said, I 44 00:03:39.319 --> 00:03:47.439 was born in eighteen twelve. Her father is Judge Ebeny's Parkhursed. He died 45 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:53.840 in eighteen forty four in Alecan, Michigan. I don't know where that is, 46 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:58.800 but neither do no. I and I grew up in this I'm guessing 47 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:03.560 it's going to be in the southern in Michigan. His mother, her mother 48 00:04:04.360 --> 00:04:11.919 at this point, Mary Moorehouse Parkhurst is born. Both are born in Sharon, 49 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:16.920 Vermont, and really the only other thing other than Charlie being born there 50 00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:28.279 is Joseph Smiths Fa Vermont. She had two siblings, Charles and Maria. 51 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:33.040 Charles only lived two years as h was you know, kind of common back 52 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:38.040 in that era you had if you had four kids, one of them probably 53 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:44.959 lived right. Yeah, time frame. Yeah, her mother she dies in 54 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:49.240 eighteen twelve. A couple of things I read said her mother died of heartache 55 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:55.600 from Charles dying, But he dies in eighteen thirteen, so I'm not sure 56 00:04:55.639 --> 00:05:00.560 of the gap there. She only lived age twenty five. Wow, Wow, 57 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:04.120 that is fairly young. Yeah. Yeah, and even for then, 58 00:05:04.639 --> 00:05:09.879 it makes you wonder too. I mean maybe she maybe it was a complicated 59 00:05:10.160 --> 00:05:14.519 birth or something like. It is awfully strange that they that the two of 60 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:20.160 them die very close close together like that. So Charlotte ak Charlie and his 61 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:27.439 sister Marie are sent to an orphanage in Lebanon, New Hampshire. While they're 62 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:33.040 Charlotte kind of learns life is easier in the eighteen hundreds as a man. 63 00:05:33.800 --> 00:05:39.199 Wow, it's kind of a thing to teach somebody that you're raising to be 64 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:44.160 an adult. Yeah, especially that that that is. Yeah. I was 65 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:46.279 wondering where she figured it out. I mean I was wondering where that even 66 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:49.879 had come from the MBM pulse. I didn't realize that someone had been and 67 00:05:50.040 --> 00:05:54.360 from a mental standpoint, I mean, if you think about it, a 68 00:05:54.439 --> 00:06:00.480 man is raising her, Yes, you know, from two different point of 69 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:03.240 views. You can take that. You know, be a wife, you 70 00:06:03.279 --> 00:06:06.040 know I'm gonna raise you. You can be a wife, you're gonna marry, 71 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:09.279 You're gonna have a whole bunch of kids. Or you can have the 72 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:13.040 life you want and try to be a man. You know, isn't that 73 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:16.480 interesting now that I guess out loud, and very interesting. I wouldn't even 74 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:23.920 consider it a slight or any right, like I would take the route that 75 00:06:24.040 --> 00:06:29.040 gave me the most freedom. Right, What a different mentality. That's kind 76 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:31.319 of a mind blowing actually, now that I'm thinking about it, You know 77 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:35.519 what though, I mean, I mean, gosh, we covered Calamity Jane. 78 00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:41.000 This took me back to that a little bit. I Mean, Calamity 79 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:45.600 didn't take it to the next level, but she was always the next level. 80 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:53.959 Well, Calamity next Jane, next level. But yeah, but definitely 81 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:58.000 I would say there's a correlation there. I mean, the West was really 82 00:06:58.000 --> 00:07:03.120 tough, especially on women, and I think that's really the undercurrent to both 83 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.399 of their stories. Oh yeah, I agree with that all right. At 84 00:07:06.439 --> 00:07:13.800 the age of twelve, Charlie runs away disguised as a man and soon meets 85 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:18.879 up with Ebenezer Walsh. He has a liberally stable in Providence, Rhode Island, 86 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:25.439 and takes Charlie in kind of as his own son. I don't know 87 00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:30.720 if he ever knew that Charlie was a female, right, I don't know 88 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:33.519 if you guys found anything on that. I have not. I have not 89 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:39.360 either. It's it's really hard to kind any information on Charlie. I think 90 00:07:39.399 --> 00:07:43.519 if he would have known, it would have been mentioned somewhere. Unless they 91 00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:48.160 were very close. I think he would have discharged her from the stable, 92 00:07:48.399 --> 00:07:53.720 but definitely not definitely not leaned on her to do what she ended up doing, 93 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:57.800 right, I mean, that's for sure. So Charlie's taken in treated 94 00:07:58.000 --> 00:08:01.959 as a son from Ebenezer. It's kind of weird that he, her father, 95 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:05.959 and this guy are both named Ebenezer. And it is starts out in 96 00:08:07.040 --> 00:08:11.800 the stables, you know, shoveling shit, and then has gradually moved up, 97 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.839 you know, one horse, four horse, six horses, until she's 98 00:08:16.879 --> 00:08:22.720 a six horse Charlie specifically driving coach a coach. Yes, yeah, that 99 00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:28.079 thing about Ebenezer. Um, it's funny because when I checked her out family 100 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:33.639 tree wise on ancestry, you could see a long line of Ebeneezer's, like 101 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.480 she's descended from her father, her grandfather. I mean, it went way 102 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:41.360 way back that name, And I thought it was really ironic that she ends 103 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.840 up with another Ebeneezer who really changes her life for the better, gives her 104 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:52.039 a foal, a focal point, something to be passionate about. Yeah, 105 00:08:52.240 --> 00:08:56.519 and this is something I wanted to talk as a group about. So her 106 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:03.879 father remarries in eighteen seventeen. There is no information on how, at least 107 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:09.679 that I found, how she ends up in an orphanage. Is it her 108 00:09:09.840 --> 00:09:13.799 father doesn't want to deal with kids? Is he heartbroken? I don't know 109 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.519 the story there. Well, maybe even the death of the little boy. 110 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:22.879 I mean, gosh, we don't know the circumstances regarding that, but I'd 111 00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:26.600 have to believe that had something to do with it, and who's to say 112 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:31.960 maybe he was with the wife and then he left and then the children died, 113 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.639 and you know, maybe Charlie was left by herself. Who knows neglect? 114 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.320 Yeah, this other new wife say I don't want to raise your kids 115 00:09:41.480 --> 00:09:46.480 or right? That is weird, you know, And not to get too 116 00:09:46.519 --> 00:09:52.360 personal, but you know, my grandpa, he was the eldest of I 117 00:09:52.399 --> 00:09:56.799 want to say, six or seven children, and his father died when he 118 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:01.279 was really young of brain tumor, and then his mother died, so he 119 00:10:01.399 --> 00:10:07.399 had to take care of his entire sibling line. So they didn't cut them 120 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:13.759 up into you know, single individuals through the adoption services. And it could 121 00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:16.639 be a finance issue as well. I mean, who knows at that point, 122 00:10:16.720 --> 00:10:22.000 because let's say they were it was a love match at I would like 123 00:10:22.080 --> 00:10:26.240 to think it. There were love matches back then. But if you weren't 124 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.399 emotionally attached to this woman who just died, and you just had a kid 125 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:33.600 that you couldn't financially take care of, I mean, what easier way just 126 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:37.559 to drop them off at adoption services? You know he's a judge though, 127 00:10:37.720 --> 00:10:43.840 and the Park Cursor, they're like one of the founding families. And Sharon, 128 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:48.120 So I don't. I don't feel like money was a problem unless he 129 00:10:48.279 --> 00:10:52.399 was. Maybe he was air bag money. Maybe he had a gambling problem. 130 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.919 Maybe he just didn't care about kids. I don't know. That's so 131 00:10:56.639 --> 00:11:01.480 speculation, and he maybe would be like, this is too much from my 132 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:05.919 career. I need to hang people. And you know, she's the law. 133 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:11.720 Were crawls over at this point, I think too, Julie, kind 134 00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:18.960 of you alluded to like emotional attachment, and one of the things that I 135 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.679 think is it's hard for us to kind of grasp the context of is they 136 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:28.960 didn't have the same level of emotional attachments as we do today. They had 137 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:33.879 so much death and disappointment back then that I mean, I read once that 138 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:39.120 some people wouldn't name their children until they became a certain age because they were 139 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:43.679 so used to kids dying before the age of like seven. So I think 140 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:50.399 looking at it from that lens and seeing it as more of a survival issue, 141 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:52.600 you know, maybe puts it in a different context, a different light 142 00:11:52.840 --> 00:11:58.159 that we can understand. That reminds me of a weird thing that I found 143 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.639 out in a book I was reading. Did you ever hear of the disappointment 144 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:09.440 Room. No, if a child was born, you know, like with 145 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:16.399 a cleft lip or missing a limb, or some sort of mental effect, 146 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.720 they would be the parents could put them like in a room locked. They 147 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.840 would feed them, raise them, but they essentially stayed in this room, 148 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:31.480 and it was called the disappointments room. Dear God, Oh wow, so 149 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.799 cruel. Wow. You know I knew about the orphan trains. I don't 150 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.919 know when that happened, but people putting their kids on trains when they couldn't 151 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.679 pay to feed them and send them as we had orphan trains. Just about 152 00:12:43.720 --> 00:12:48.399 an hour south of me. There's a museum and everything about it that's amazing. 153 00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:54.480 Charlie or Charlotte, but at this point we're going by Charlie. Charlie 154 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:58.039 has been living as a man for several years now. He works, like 155 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.759 I said, works as well up to one two or a yeah, one 156 00:13:01.799 --> 00:13:09.559 two four six horses ends up being called six horse Charlie at some point and 157 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:13.559 moves on to some bigger and better things where Micha will pick up. That's 158 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:24.600 right. I knew that. I knew back. First of all, I 159 00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:30.960 need to give Julie full credit for this character. Yep, because absolutely was 160 00:13:31.000 --> 00:13:35.240 a surprise, and I love things that you know, you have to get 161 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.840 into the psychology of the person and figure out really what they're thinking or what 162 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:45.840 they meant by their actions or their words. It's always fascinating, you know, 163 00:13:46.000 --> 00:13:50.879 human beings do things, and we today, especially assigned like value to 164 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:56.440 that that a lot of times is misappropriated. But she definitely is a really 165 00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:01.039 fantastic character when you're looking at women in the Old West and just what it 166 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:03.879 took to survive. So I'm gonna tip my hat to Julie on that. 167 00:14:05.159 --> 00:14:07.440 The other thing I wanted to say before I dive in into her is, 168 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:11.279 uh, I'm glad I got to come back. I was. I was 169 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:16.360 just telling Julie that it's it's weird. It's like riding a bike and you 170 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:18.799 have to you know, if you haven't done it in a few years, 171 00:14:18.840 --> 00:14:22.039 well you don't want to like wreck. So I'm gonna do my best there, 172 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:26.360 but you have to bear with me because it's I haven't I haven't been 173 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.440 in front of a microphone and it's been a long time. I mean I 174 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:33.639 can't that's what over two years, right, yea? And I definitely want 175 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:39.360 to at least a you know, some respects to people out there who maybe 176 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.559 are going through, you know, tough times with what we've all had to 177 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.080 deal with these past couple of years. I mean, what's weird for me 178 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.720 is that, stepping back off the mic, I've lived like three lifetimes for 179 00:14:52.919 --> 00:14:56.639 lifetimes since then. I mean that things have been so just crazy. And 180 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:01.360 I'm sure you know there's people out there listening that have battle scars from all 181 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:07.399 of this. I definitely have my stories regarding this crazy situation, and I 182 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:09.279 just wanted to give them a shout out and say, hey, just keep 183 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.240 your head up and do your best, you know, keep keep a good 184 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.240 attitude, and you know, remember to smile and make jokes to people. 185 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:20.679 I remember when we all had to start wearing masks the first for the first 186 00:15:20.679 --> 00:15:24.720 time, I was I was telling people when I was smiling at them, 187 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:28.039 because you know, we couldn't see that kind of stuff all of a sudden. 188 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:33.279 So anyway, I just wanted to at least acknowledge that. So regarding 189 00:15:33.399 --> 00:15:37.159 Charlie, I think the first thing that I kind of stumbled onto that I 190 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:43.799 thought was really interesting is that Charlie ends up when you go and you look 191 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:52.919 at the censuses that were happening once she was living with Ebeneezer Balk. She 192 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:58.879 goes by the name Charles Dodge Parkhurst or Charles d Parkhurst at times. That's 193 00:15:58.919 --> 00:16:03.039 her her dead brother there's name. So I found that really interesting, going 194 00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:08.320 back to the psychology comment that that's the name she chose as her alias. 195 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:12.279 You know, I definitely don't think that was an accident regarding the situation. 196 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.559 Yeah, you know, I mean again, it looks like a little hidden 197 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:19.879 a little hidden seed there, and you know, who knows what her thoughts 198 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:22.519 were with that. I mean, think about it, if she had been 199 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:26.080 him, I mean, it's not like there was an emotional attachment to him 200 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.440 because they were too young. But if she had been him, she's not 201 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.600 having to do all this crazy stuff. And I want to I want to 202 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:40.639 point out that, you know, it's not without precedent in modern times that 203 00:16:40.799 --> 00:16:45.600 people have had to do this for better opportunities. Unfortunately, you know, 204 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:53.720 our society is really locked in when it comes to assigning value to people. 205 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.759 And you know what your opportunities are going to be based on, you know, 206 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:02.840 how you were born, maybe the color of your skin or your religion. 207 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:06.559 That still goes on in the world today, but back then especially, 208 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:11.480 you know, that would have been something that Charlie was facing as an orphan 209 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:17.920 at that But I know, I had read an article once about Afghanistan and 210 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:25.279 how in modern times it was not without precedent that people would change the sex 211 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:30.960 of their child, like by dressing them differently, like all of a sudden, 212 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:36.839 Mary became Michael, and literally they would bring the child out out of 213 00:17:36.880 --> 00:17:41.319 the house the next day dressed as a little boy. And the way they 214 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.839 handled that in Afghanistan, or they may still, I'm not sure, but 215 00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:51.640 was to just accept what the parents had done, and that girl, that 216 00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:55.880 little girl would then get the opportunities that she would have had as a boy. 217 00:17:55.960 --> 00:17:59.400 She'd be allowed to go to school, for example. So this, 218 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:02.720 you know, like I said, this has been going on a long time. 219 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:08.640 It's just not something that we are I guess comfortable discussing as a society 220 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:14.400 because it definitely points a finger at inequality. I mean, that's that's really 221 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:18.680 what's being illuminated. But anyway, so Charlie, you know, as Matt 222 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:23.759 said, Charlie trains under Ebenezer. The thing about that the two hand, 223 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:29.880 four hand, six hand, I mean to have her driving six hand carriages 224 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:36.119 or teams. That's pretty impressive, very impression. I don't think a lot 225 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.839 of people and current present day could be able to give that right. So 226 00:18:41.000 --> 00:18:45.319 when balk bought it was called the Franklin House and what cheer stables. Charlie 227 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:49.680 went with him to a Providence, Rhode Island. Charlie became known as one 228 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:53.720 of the best coachmen in Providence, Rhode Island, one of the best coachmen 229 00:18:53.720 --> 00:19:00.359 in all of the Eastern Seaboard, and was often hired the coaches that Balk 230 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:07.440 I guess would rent out or whatever provide. Oftentimes his customers would ask specifically 231 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:12.200 for Charlie, and Charlie was known for having a favorite team of horses. 232 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:19.240 It was six perfectly matched gray horses. So Charlie worked for Balk for several 233 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:25.480 years, got to know a man at the time by the name of James 234 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:30.240 Birch who was a young upcoming state age coach driver himself. Whether or not 235 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.960 they were friends or whatnot, you know, we don't know how closely they 236 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:41.079 they got along. Charlie ended up would end up working for Birch in the 237 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:47.400 future, so that was a critical opportunity there for Charlie to come across him. 238 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:53.119 Charlie was about one hundred and seventy five pounds when she matured, and 239 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.480 she was five eight or I'm sorry five foot in height. She had big 240 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:03.240 arms and she had small all hands. Charlie had a week somewhat lifeless voice, 241 00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:08.799 and she preferred to sleep in the stables with the horses rather than carousing 242 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:11.880 with the boys. And we can understand that. I mean, I think 243 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:19.720 going forward, most of Charlie's life was spent basically hiding who she was, 244 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:25.880 you know, protecting that identity especially you know, I mean, my god, 245 00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:30.000 she'd finally become successful, and that was America in itself right, So 246 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.400 you would definitely not want your gig to be pulled out from underneath you. 247 00:20:34.920 --> 00:20:40.599 As far as the voice, Charlie's voice, it was said that she actually 248 00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:45.240 trained it to be somewhat squeaky, to sound like a whiskey drinker. So 249 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:51.880 she definitely went out of her way to hide her feminine qualities. And in 250 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.599 fact, she actually almost got caught as a team, or at least something 251 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.640 odd happened that could have gotten or caught it was a winner days in a 252 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:07.599 place called Paul Tuckett, and Charlie was waiting outside for passengers so that she 253 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:11.279 could take them home, and it was a cold evening and her hands froze 254 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:17.279 so she was unable to drive. She couldn't grip the reins and she had 255 00:21:17.319 --> 00:21:22.039 to ask another driver, a friend of hers named Liberty Liberty Childs, to 256 00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:26.920 take over her coach. So, whether it was because of embarrassment or maybe 257 00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:33.000 possible comments that came her way, Charlie actually soon after left New England for 258 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:34.880 Georgia. I mean that's a stretch, you know. She went from New 259 00:21:34.880 --> 00:21:40.200 England to Georgia and it's not like she knew anybody down there, and she 260 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:45.759 actually furthered her reputation in Georgia as a top whip and that term I had 261 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.000 to laugh because that I didn't know what that meant until Calamity Jane, So 262 00:21:51.079 --> 00:21:55.359 I've never heard whip, so I was like, oh, yeah, Calamity 263 00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.279 Jane. So Charlie went down there and did pretty well for herself for the 264 00:22:00.279 --> 00:22:06.559 rest of Charlie's driving career. Because of what happened with her hands and almost 265 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:11.759 getting caught, possibly getting caught as something we don't really know, Charlie was 266 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:17.240 known for wearing these long fringed, beaded gloves, and she wore them in 267 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:21.359 the summer and in the winter. So she definitely went out of her way 268 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:26.440 to fix that situation. And do you have a quick question for you at 269 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.880 one time did she get kicked in the head? You know that is soon 270 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:36.119 after that's coming up. I will be patient. Then she does get kicked 271 00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:41.640 in the head, Julie and it, I mean the cats out of the 272 00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:45.200 bag is going to give her another nickname. It was in Georgia that Charlie 273 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:49.880 started working for Jim Birch, that once up and coming driver in Providence, 274 00:22:49.960 --> 00:22:53.480 Rhode Island, that she had met, and in eighteen forty nine, the 275 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:59.519 twenty one year old Birch struck out for California during the Gold Rush to seek 276 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:04.720 his four surprise surprise. Birch started as a driver with one wagon in California, 277 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:11.960 but eventually bought several small stage lines and consolidated them into a company called 278 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:15.759 the California Stage Company. So Birch definitely knew what he was doing as far 279 00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:21.200 as you know, climbing the ladder of success. Charlie by then was in 280 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.720 her late thirties and headed out to Cali as well. She boarded a boat 281 00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:30.279 in Boston and headed to Panama. You know, it's funny people don't realize, 282 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:34.240 like when you took, you know, a boat somewhere that was a 283 00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:42.079 pain in the ass. And the way they did this, and this is 284 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:47.680 actually a cool little side note, is they tended to go to Panama because 285 00:23:47.799 --> 00:23:52.880 Panama happens to be the most narrow spot on that what are they called that 286 00:23:53.119 --> 00:23:59.880 there the peninsula? I think it is, I must or something like that. 287 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:04.039 Anyway, don't know, I'll be looking at um. Anyway, it's 288 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:07.279 the most narrow spot of land that you can find down there. So what 289 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:11.680 they would do is the boat would drop you off on the eastern side and 290 00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:15.400 then you would be carried on with a probably a coach or something to the 291 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.960 western side and you'd get on another boat. The side note is it's really 292 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:25.400 kind of interesting is people don't realize that when Christopher Columbus was doing his thing, 293 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:29.799 he actually didn't just sail to the New World and discover it and all 294 00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:34.640 that and retire. The guy kept coming back. And the reason he came 295 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:38.200 back later in his life is that he kind of knew that there had to 296 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:41.400 be a passage, like he figured out that there was this land mass in 297 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:47.680 his way, and he discovered that area. He knew that that area was 298 00:24:47.720 --> 00:24:51.839 significant. He was always looking for a river that would cut across, and 299 00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.440 it just so happens that that's kind of where he ended his career. He 300 00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:59.799 ended up getting wiped out by a hurricane and he was stranded on shore there 301 00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:03.400 and his son had to take a raft to some city in Mexico to get 302 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:07.079 them all rescued. So anyway, it's it's an interesting, you know, 303 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:12.319 geographical little thing there. But the bottom line is Charlie definitely this was a 304 00:25:12.319 --> 00:25:17.200 big adventure. And for a person you gosh, I mean really I would 305 00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:22.240 be saying, yeah, what ears this? This would have been Julie. 306 00:25:22.319 --> 00:25:26.960 Let's see here eighteen forty nine, so she probably would have done that a 307 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:33.279 year or two after that. Can you imagine eighteen in that timeframe and just 308 00:25:33.599 --> 00:25:37.880 jumping on a boat and seeing the things that he saw or she saw she 309 00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:42.519 you know, I mean, right, the world at that point it was 310 00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:48.799 just a brand new, like everything is possible and amazing everything. There was 311 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:55.640 no jaded perspective if you were traveling like that's just amazing to me. You 312 00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:59.839 know what amazes me too is being able to just start over in life, 313 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:03.680 you know, like they didn't have social Security numbers back. I was born 314 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:12.480 in the wrong era, married five men in my time. So on the 315 00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:18.440 voyage, Charlie met a European traveler and his name was John Charles Ducal, 316 00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:25.000 who in his journal had this to say about their meeting. He said, 317 00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:30.640 he calls himself Charles Clifton, but the passengers on board call him Thunderbolt, 318 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:36.559 he says, he says, he says. The reason for passing under an 319 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:41.559 assumed name was that he was an important witness in a case, and wishing 320 00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:45.720 to have nothing to do with it, adopted a false name to get out 321 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.839 of the way. He told us that he's married to a Boston merchant where 322 00:26:49.880 --> 00:26:55.720 he is keeper of the American's House. In short, he is a very 323 00:26:55.839 --> 00:27:02.920 queer fellow. Indeed, so I have to imagine that Charlie man must have 324 00:27:02.920 --> 00:27:08.279 been trashed. That maybe Charlie's trashed or their party and their gambling or something, 325 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.799 and or maybe the dude was just you know, one of those people. 326 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:17.400 Charlie just felt like with I know, we've been studying her for about 327 00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:22.799 two months now, isn't this the guy who the only person in Charlie's timeframe 328 00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:29.880 to really suspect him and suspicions. That's exactly right. I mean, again, 329 00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.920 we don't know about the friend that with a hand situation, but right, 330 00:27:34.039 --> 00:27:37.640 Charlie did a very it's a very good point for you to bring that 331 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.039 up. It's actually excellent because Charlie did an excellent job. She did a 332 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:48.079 great job of keeping this under wraps. And this is obviously being done on 333 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:52.039 purpose. Either that or Charlie is trashed. I mean, it's one or 334 00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:56.200 the other. But it is weird that that is something that, you know, 335 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:00.000 we have to think about. Yeah, so interesting, just trying to 336 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:06.440 get into the mental state of mind of Charlie, Like if you're gonna dress 337 00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:10.119 up in your day to day life and then build such a career for yourself 338 00:28:10.759 --> 00:28:15.599 with such a high responsibility and you know, importance, it's kind of like, 339 00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.200 why would you take the risk of being drunk and saying that, you 340 00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:22.079 know, unless unless you know, this wasn't a set on a boat. 341 00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:30.200 Yes, so maybe or maybe she you know, just like you know, 342 00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.920 skirt, I'm just having a couple of drinks whatever, or you know, 343 00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:40.440 maybe this was her sober kind of inside laugh, you know exactly, And 344 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:42.799 yeah, that's what I'm kind of guessing that that's what it was. You 345 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:47.559 know, there's something about him. Maybe he kind of was figuring something out 346 00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:51.440 and this is just like a boomerang like upside his head. You know. 347 00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:56.960 But but if if that really went down and Charlie was doing this um and 348 00:28:57.200 --> 00:29:00.839 traveling, this is another alias, right, Clifton, the name was Clifton, 349 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:03.839 then I think it's a clue to the riddle, you know. As 350 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:08.880 far as Charlie's secret, there was a court case in which Charlie was named 351 00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:15.119 as an important witness shortly after her death. When the secret of Charlie's true 352 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:21.160 sex was revealed, The San Francisco Call wrote that Charlie's life was a story 353 00:29:21.319 --> 00:29:26.119 of a fair maiden in New Hampshire becoming disappointed in love and leaving her native 354 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:32.119 state disguised in that I'm not going to pronounce this, right, have billiments 355 00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:37.200 of the sterner sex? Yeah, because of course the woman just has to 356 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.920 be broken hearted to dress up as a man and decide not to get married 357 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:47.119 to a man and have children and be a dutiful wife instead of you know, 358 00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:52.839 I mean like writing the sorry yeah yeah instead instead of you know the 359 00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:55.640 fact that Charlie mean, we know that she was having a damn good time 360 00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:57.920 writing those Harley's that she had. I mean, that's really what back in 361 00:29:57.960 --> 00:30:00.400 the day. I mean, that is a lot of power, horse power, 362 00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:03.319 you know, because she was able to have fun with there, so 363 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:10.200 you know, right, I think Charlie definitely definitely enjoyed. And this is 364 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:14.319 a reminder for our listeners too. I mean, having one horse was a 365 00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:18.720 big responsibility, but that was also kind of like your transportation, a way 366 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:26.039 to earn a living, and being responsible for multiple horses and traveling, you 367 00:30:26.039 --> 00:30:30.720 know, taking people to and fro or parcels, anything that you can think 368 00:30:30.759 --> 00:30:34.000 of. That's a huge job and a lot of responsibility. Absolutely, and 369 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:40.200 as time goes on, that responsibility got bigger and bigger. It's impressive the 370 00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:42.720 jobs that she took on. But I mean, if you think about it, 371 00:30:42.759 --> 00:30:47.119 I mean not to like get too much into history, but you know, 372 00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:48.680 the cats already out of the bag at this point, you know. 373 00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:52.720 Stagecoach. I mean that's how wells Fargo became, how big they are today. 374 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:59.160 They started as a stagecoach system, and look at how big they are 375 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:03.440 today. I mean, this is a giant financial responsibility and look at the 376 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:07.359 simple you know well as Fargo, they know their roots. So you definitely 377 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:11.079 is a very good point. So if Charlie, uh, you know, 378 00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:15.839 it is possible, I guess we have to at least say that it is 379 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:21.319 possible that Charlie did marry you know, a prosperous Boston banker, and that 380 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:26.400 Charlie was tired of, you know, an unhappy marriage perhaps so uh she 381 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:29.480 escaped, you know, hiding in men's clothes. It reminds me of that 382 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:33.559 movie as Sleeping with the Enemy, you know, when the lady pretended like 383 00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:37.319 she had died to escape her abusive husband. You know, maybe there is 384 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:44.519 something to that story, but we don't have any details. Speculation to history. 385 00:31:44.559 --> 00:31:48.359 It's it's all speculation. So all we know is that for a short 386 00:31:48.359 --> 00:31:52.920 period of time, Charlie was driving stage in Georgia, and that Charlie Charlie 387 00:31:52.920 --> 00:31:56.759 actually did return to New England for a brief period as well before she headed 388 00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.599 to California. Um, Charlie arrived in San Francis, Go. This will 389 00:32:00.599 --> 00:32:05.039 answer your question in eighteen fifty one, so at nearly forty years of age 390 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:10.440 as the city was hustling and bustling with gold dust fever, all these people 391 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:15.319 thinking they're gonna make it rich. That's the American story everyone, It's a 392 00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.160 myth, okay. So anyway, Charlie went to work for Jim Birch out 393 00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:24.960 there again as a stage driver and made a name for herself again as one 394 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:29.640 of the best in the business, which you know, it's just man. 395 00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:31.759 She must have been a really hard worker. I mean, everywhere she went 396 00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:37.400 she was a success. This was definitely an exciting time for Charlie, and 397 00:32:37.599 --> 00:32:39.400 you know, one could only imagine. I mean, I don't know. 398 00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:44.240 I looked up some pictures of where she was living, and it was pretty 399 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:50.720 spectacular. So I would imagine Charlie was very happy with her life. And 400 00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:53.160 the gamble definitely paid off. I mean, this is a gamble. After 401 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:55.519 all. She could have gone out there and fallen flat on her face. 402 00:32:55.559 --> 00:33:00.960 I mean, how many thousands did. But she was soon just rumbling through 403 00:33:01.000 --> 00:33:05.279 gold dust towns. I mean that was her job. Towns like rough and 404 00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:10.680 Ready, Grass Valley and I think it's Plaquerville. By the mid eighteen fifties, 405 00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:15.759 Charlie was experimenting with new routes from Oakland to San Juan Batista, and 406 00:33:15.799 --> 00:33:21.440 by eighteen fifty six, Charlie was living in San Mateo City, between San 407 00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:28.680 Francisco and San Jose, California. During this time, Charlie received an injury 408 00:33:28.720 --> 00:33:34.039 that gave her a legendary nickname. In Redwood City, Charlie was kicked in 409 00:33:34.039 --> 00:33:37.839 the face by a horse that she was shoeing. The accident cost Charlie use 410 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:42.359 of an eye, and she wore a black patch over it for the rest 411 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:47.160 of her life. From then on, she became known as one eyed Charlie 412 00:33:47.279 --> 00:33:52.720 or cock eyed Charlie. I'm sorry, but just to be a little personal, 413 00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:58.759 I cannot imagine getting kicked in any part of my body by a horse. 414 00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:02.359 I think I would face. Horses are such assholes, I know, 415 00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:08.920 and their giant toddlers in a thousand plus pound body, pure muscle, and 416 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:15.239 their devious, cute little creatures. And oh, my gosh, like I 417 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:17.480 love horses, you know, I'm becoming to love them. But man, 418 00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:22.119 can you imagine get kicked in the head and you lose an eyeball? I'm 419 00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.840 going to admit right now to the list, and especially if you started to 420 00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:30.079 cut you off my especially in this time. If she had an eye injury, 421 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:34.840 if they left the eye in her head, it obviously could have been 422 00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:38.719 infected. She could have died or and they I'm assuming they took the risk 423 00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:43.960 of surgery, and that is risky, and she lived. That's amazing. 424 00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:46.719 And I have to admit to the listeners out there, I mean, I've 425 00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.639 I'm familiar with horses, you know a little bit when I was younger, 426 00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:53.679 and I was scared to death of getting kicked, Like I never I'd see 427 00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:58.239 people in the stables like walking behind their horses and brushing them, and I'd 428 00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:00.480 be like, no, no, I'm not going to do it. I 429 00:35:00.519 --> 00:35:04.159 just always imagined like this big old shoe coming up and smacking me in the 430 00:35:04.199 --> 00:35:10.519 face. I have horses a re enactments, and it's oh, definitely my 431 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:15.440 favorite thing to do. So one of the things about Charlie's nickname, though, 432 00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:20.000 is that people did not say it in her presence. So it was 433 00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:25.199 said that Charlie's lead horse, Pete, gave her the kick. And Charlie 434 00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:30.360 by then was a celebrity anyway, so stories of course started being bantered about, 435 00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:35.119 and you know, she became a legend and this became part of the 436 00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:40.320 story. According to historian Pattie Stoker, one story was that the horses became 437 00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:45.800 skittish and Charlie had stopped the coach to soothe the lead horse, Pete, 438 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:51.360 when a rattler shook its tail. Ah, did you like them, frightening 439 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:54.840 Pete and causing him to kick Charlie. So I did that for Justin Bowe 440 00:35:54.840 --> 00:36:00.280 because we know he loves snakes. So I have a snake star, y'all 441 00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:01.159 save for the end of the show. Save it, Save it. I 442 00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:04.960 love it. I'm impressed by the way you're doing really well with that. 443 00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:12.400 So this is pretty much where I jump off the trail. So Charlie not 444 00:36:12.480 --> 00:36:19.199 only had routes, you know, through California into New Mexico. Charlie's also 445 00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:24.599 doing West coast to East Coast and back to West coast trips where she is 446 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:31.079 robbed once at gunpoint. Wow, now she is robbed, and uh, 447 00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:36.559 I mean, the company's not too hard on her. But on the way 448 00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:44.840 back to California, the same guy tries to rob her, and the legend 449 00:36:45.000 --> 00:36:47.960 is and I don't I don't think it's a legend. She shoots him. 450 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:54.880 You know, the girl don't play that girl, don't play now? Was 451 00:36:54.880 --> 00:37:00.719 this when she was was she driving for Wells? Yeah? This was the 452 00:37:00.719 --> 00:37:07.440 wild. This wild remindered our listeners because I also had to be reminded of 453 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.559 this. You know, stagecoach drivers didn't just have to deal with mail or 454 00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:15.079 just like packages like they had to deal with passengers. They had to deal 455 00:37:15.079 --> 00:37:19.840 with hold ups, robberies, bad weather, and a little to no trails 456 00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.280 like they were creating the trails, like some of them are still around to 457 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:27.039 this day. That's right, that's right, and carrying a whole lot of 458 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:30.480 gold. And not only that, but like predators on the trail, like 459 00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.079 that's a joke. Back then, Hey, Buffalo Hurd could wipe you out. 460 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:38.760 I mean so yeah, it was definitely dangerous. I'm sure it was 461 00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:45.679 a thrill to her though. I think she loved every bit of her life. 462 00:37:45.719 --> 00:37:51.320 Man, she she had the right era of being alive and experiencing all 463 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:54.039 that. To be whatever you want to be, to be whoever and whatever 464 00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:58.199 you want to be, you could you could pull that off, and she 465 00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:02.679 definitely did. Oh yeah, so I'm gonna take the reins, I suppose, 466 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:09.679 folks, and I'll take a shot of whiskey okay. So Charlie was 467 00:38:09.760 --> 00:38:15.360 noticing that the railroads were kind of damaging the stage coach business. So Charlie 468 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:21.480 decided to retire from driving and he moved to Watsonville, California. So for 469 00:38:21.599 --> 00:38:25.440 fifteen years, Charlie worked at farming and lumbering in the winter, and he 470 00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:29.880 also raised chickens. And excuse me, I want to say it's Aptos. 471 00:38:30.440 --> 00:38:36.159 Said that correctly, and if I'm looking, Aptos is in California, and 472 00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.840 it's next to Santa Cruz County in California. So I thought that was kind 473 00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:45.280 of cool. So Charlie later moved to a small cabin about six miles from 474 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:52.519 Watsonville, and he also suffered from rheumatism rheumatism arthritis excuse me, in his 475 00:38:52.639 --> 00:38:58.480 later years, which is arthritis. But it's all super painful. I had 476 00:38:58.480 --> 00:39:02.840 a past family member who had a severe case of it, where your bones 477 00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:07.719 and your hands and feet become very bent at a severe angle and you can 478 00:39:07.800 --> 00:39:12.519 barely use your hands. It's really painful to use your hands a little on 479 00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:17.119 your feet. So it requires a lot of therapy or a lot of soaking, 480 00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:23.199 or just help asking for help from other individuals. It is considered an 481 00:39:23.239 --> 00:39:28.800 autoimmune disease. Oh really, I didn't know that. Yeah, I hope 482 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:34.519 I don't have that when I get older. From knowing the past family member, 483 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:39.119 it was extremely painful. I have an immune disease. Really, yeah, 484 00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:45.039 multiple connective tissue disorder. You're kidding. O. Noah, we got 485 00:39:45.079 --> 00:39:50.960 a ribbon and everything. So after he's been suffering from arritism arthritis. He 486 00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:55.840 died in Watsonville on December eighteenth, eighteen seventy nine, due to tongue cancer, 487 00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:01.760 which I'm guessing was, you know, as if you're portraying yourself as 488 00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:07.360 a man, I'm guessing he partakeed in chew or snuff. So I'm assuming 489 00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:12.880 there was some type of tobacco involved. Absolutely, And you know, so, 490 00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:15.960 so this is where things get interesting, folks. So you might want 491 00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:17.280 to, you know, key in your ears a little bit. If you're 492 00:40:17.280 --> 00:40:21.159 not really paying attention, you're just working, you know, for background, 493 00:40:21.480 --> 00:40:23.079 you might want to just pay attention a little bit. This is kind of 494 00:40:23.079 --> 00:40:28.480 where it gets good. So, as Parkers died in eighteen seventy nine, 495 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.920 neighbors came to the cabin to lay out the body for the burial and discovered 496 00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:37.599 that his body appeared to be female, and so rheumatism, arthritis in cancer 497 00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:42.519 of the tongue were listed as the cause of death. In addition, while 498 00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:46.199 the doctor was examining Charlie, they discovered that Charlie had given birth at some 499 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:53.480 time, and a trunk in the house contained a baby's dress, which I 500 00:40:53.519 --> 00:40:59.039 thought was very interesting. The La La Times, excuse me, reported that 501 00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:05.239 this discovery came a local sensation and was soon carried by national newspapers. The 502 00:41:05.480 --> 00:41:10.239 obituary about Charlie from the San Francisco Call was reprinted in the New York Times 503 00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:15.320 on January ninth, eighteen eighty So not soon after, I mean very soon 504 00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:21.199 after she died, excuse me. So extraordinary was a driving career, and 505 00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:27.920 the post mortem discovery of Charlie's sex received national coverage. The headline was quote, 506 00:41:27.960 --> 00:41:32.800 thirty years in disguise, a noted old Californian stagecoach driver discover after death 507 00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:39.920 to be a woman. And I have a little bit of the clip from 508 00:41:39.960 --> 00:41:44.719 the paper. This is what it said. It said he was in his 509 00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:50.280 day one of the most dexterous and celebrated of the famous California drivers, ranking 510 00:41:50.280 --> 00:41:54.039 with Fosse Hank Monk and George Gordon, and it was an honor to be 511 00:41:54.159 --> 00:42:00.800 striven to occupy the spare end of the driver's seat when the fearless Charlie held 512 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:04.960 the reins of four or six in hand. Last Sunday, December twenty eighth, 513 00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:07.880 eighteen seventy nine, in a little cabin on the Moss Ranch, about 514 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:14.679 six miles from Watsonville, Charlie Parkhurst, the famous coachman, the fearless fighter, 515 00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:19.039 and the industrious farmer and expert woodman, died of cancer on his tongue. 516 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.800 He knew that the death of the approaching, but he did not relax. 517 00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:27.239 There were tenants of his later years, other than to express a few 518 00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:30.760 wishes as to certain things to be done at his death. Then, in 519 00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:35.320 the hands of the kind friends who administered to his dying wants, came to 520 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:40.320 lay out the dead body of the adventure adventuress Agaranaut. A discovery was made 521 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:47.199 that was literally astounding. Charlie Parkhurst was a woman any quote, that's great. 522 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:52.000 You think about this from that time frame, that like that would have 523 00:42:52.039 --> 00:42:57.239 been all over the place. He Charlie already had a reputation, and then 524 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:00.599 they find out that he gave birth at some point and he was a woman. 525 00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:05.079 Like. People would be talking about this for a very long time, 526 00:43:05.480 --> 00:43:07.880 and it makes you wonder what Charlie was thinking. Like the ultimate joke, 527 00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:13.119 you know, and we kind of saw, I mean in the part that 528 00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.599 I did that you know, maybe Charlie, you know that situation on the 529 00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:21.320 boat that was a joke, you know, I mean totally crazy talk. 530 00:43:22.440 --> 00:43:27.719 Yeah. The article noted how unusual it was that Parkhurst could have lived for 531 00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:32.599 so long with nobody discovering his sex, and to achieve distinction and such an 532 00:43:32.599 --> 00:43:37.920 occupation above all professions, calling for the best physical qualities of nerve, courage, 533 00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:43.000 coolness, and endurance, and that he should add to them the almost 534 00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:49.119 romantic personal bravery that enables one's way through the ambush of an enemy. Was 535 00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:53.239 seen to be almost beyond believing that there was ample evidence to prove that he 536 00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:59.440 was in fact a woman. Wow, So I think that's amazing. That 537 00:43:59.639 --> 00:44:02.280 is amazing. And I was going to say, you know, I found 538 00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:07.920 something too, where Charlie supposedly gave kids candy, like carried candy with her 539 00:44:07.960 --> 00:44:12.719 tobacco in her pocket, and I thought, you know, that was a 540 00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:15.920 I'm not going to say that men don't do that. But I have a 541 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:21.039 feeling that there was a side of Charlie that definitely was a nurturer. You 542 00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:23.880 know, she may have been a mother at one time, and I just 543 00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:30.079 thought that was really cool that this little gesture that she did may have pointed 544 00:44:30.119 --> 00:44:36.719 to her not losing her inner self throughout all this. This was an anecdote 545 00:44:36.760 --> 00:44:40.480 I read that makes you know that Charlie was a woman. So during a 546 00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:46.559 job interview that they're asking the men ahead of her, So if you were 547 00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.440 right up against a cliff, how close would you get? And you know, 548 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:55.559 the first guy it's like, get like a foot away from the cliff, 549 00:44:55.639 --> 00:45:00.159 and the next guy's like, I get six inches away from the cliff, 550 00:45:00.199 --> 00:45:02.559 and then then other guys like, well, I'd ride the rails right 551 00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:08.679 up to the cliff with one entire hanging over. But Charlie says I would 552 00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:15.239 be as far away from the cliff as I could get. You know, 553 00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:22.920 in other words, what you're saying is she's smart. That's right. So 554 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:29.320 before we jump into other fascinating fascinating that's a new word, folks, fascinating 555 00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:34.920 topics of conversation, I do want to point out that there was somewhere that 556 00:45:34.960 --> 00:45:43.519 I read that once Charlie retired into the Apotos area of California, he you 557 00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:45.519 know, had this cabin. He was well liked by his neighbors, and 558 00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:52.079 he noticed that all of his neighbors was a member of this one hundred and 559 00:45:52.119 --> 00:45:58.639 three year old so Quick Odd Fellows launch and it was basically a whole bunch 560 00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:04.119 of wild and wooly crew and a whole bunch of people collected tales memorabilia. 561 00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:07.400 So it's just this really nice club that you know, his neighbors were part 562 00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:09.880 of, and Charlie wanted to be involved, so he was accepted into this 563 00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:16.960 group. And I read somewhere that upon Charlie's death and this group finding out 564 00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:21.360 that Charlie was in fact a woman and he was not a man, which 565 00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:24.880 you had to be a man to be in this club, they accepted his 566 00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:30.760 gender identity, you know, being a woman, being born a woman, 567 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:35.360 and you know, living life as a man, and they gave they did 568 00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:39.639 not take away any honors that they gave him during his time frame of being 569 00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:44.719 alive, and they were proud of him. And I thought that was really 570 00:46:44.719 --> 00:46:47.960 cool. That is very cool. That also brings to mind. A little 571 00:46:47.960 --> 00:46:52.280 tidbit that I discovered you off to the side as well, and that is 572 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:58.880 that Charlie's name appears on voter registration documents from the Times. Now, it 573 00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:04.000 can't be proven and whether or not Charlie actually voted, but if Charlie did 574 00:47:04.119 --> 00:47:07.960 vote, that it was the election of eighteen sixty eight. Okay, you 575 00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:13.639 know something I don't. But so if Charlie happened, if Charlie happened to 576 00:47:13.719 --> 00:47:16.679 vote, then that would mean that Charlie was the first woman to ever vote 577 00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:22.039 in the United States, correct, which I think would be amazing. That 578 00:47:22.079 --> 00:47:24.719 would be amazing, right. I wish we could prove that and talk about 579 00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:30.000 another story like Charlie goes in there and knows what Charlie's doing, And I 580 00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:34.920 really hope that's the case. I do too, Like it's all just like 581 00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:39.719 this amusing joke for her to be doing everything that other women wish they could 582 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:47.360 do. I think. The other cool thing is that her gravestone claims that 583 00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:51.559 she was the first woman to vote in the United States, and the fire 584 00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:54.199 station in so Quell, California, which she you know, she was part 585 00:47:54.239 --> 00:48:00.480 of the soa Quell Club has a plaque reading quote, the first by a 586 00:48:00.519 --> 00:48:04.920 woman in an American presidential election, was cast on this site November third, 587 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:12.159 eighteen sixty eight by Charlotte in parentheses Charlie Parkhurst, who masqueraded as a man 588 00:48:12.320 --> 00:48:15.519 for much of her life. She was a stagecoach driver in the Motherload Country 589 00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:21.039 during the gold Rush days and shot and killed at least one bandit. In 590 00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:23.440 her later years, she drove a stagecoach in this area. She died in 591 00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:28.800 eighteen seventy nine, not until then she was found to be female. She 592 00:48:28.880 --> 00:48:34.559 was buried in Watsonville at the Pioneer Cemetery. End quote. Wow, so 593 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:37.760 well, there you have it. And you know, again, from what 594 00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:40.920 I read, I don't think there's any real proof of it. They know 595 00:48:42.000 --> 00:48:45.079 that she was on the voter registration documents. But that's what legends, you 596 00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:50.159 know, as we've learned this whole journey, When you become a legend, 597 00:48:50.280 --> 00:48:53.079 all kinds of things become attached to that, right. You know, it's 598 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:58.119 hard to, I guess, disseminate between truth of fiction. And I am 599 00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:01.880 so happy that I found her name by sheer accident or maybe was it, 600 00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:08.280 but I just I just think she is so fascinating and I the romantic in 601 00:49:08.360 --> 00:49:13.079 me. You know, I would have loved to be back in that time 602 00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:17.199 frame and seeing the things that she saw that were so amazing because you know, 603 00:49:17.440 --> 00:49:22.079 from our perspective in the current present day, everything to our knowledge has 604 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:29.039 been explored. There's nothing really new or interesting. And she was experiencing everything 605 00:49:29.079 --> 00:49:34.599 like the gold Rush, you know, new cities, forming new parts of 606 00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:39.239 the country, and she was coming. Yeah, it's just amazing. And 607 00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:45.239 she she was accepted by clubs and she was feared, she was respected, 608 00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:52.239 she meant business. She was a no nonsense person and she lived an amazing 609 00:49:52.280 --> 00:49:54.480 life. I just have a lot of respect for her. And that is 610 00:49:54.519 --> 00:50:00.159 a beautiful way to end this podcast. That was fantastic. Julie absolutely agree 611 00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:04.400 with everything you said. Well, and I'm not trying to do, you 612 00:50:04.480 --> 00:50:10.039 know, bash my girl, calamity Jane, because she was a woman wearing 613 00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:15.519 men's clothes, and she was smelly, she was vulgar. She was just 614 00:50:15.639 --> 00:50:22.079 a disgusting woman. But while Bill loved her, Julie, yeah, and 615 00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:29.920 her dreams. But you know, from Charlie's perspective, she maintained her dignity. 616 00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.920 She and from outsider's perspective, she was a man and she had a 617 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:39.760 fearsome reputation. She had a responsibility that you know, Well's Farro hired her. 618 00:50:40.000 --> 00:50:45.880 She was making up a decent amount of money. She retire very good 619 00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:49.719 living. Yeah, she got to live her life and people respected her. 620 00:50:49.880 --> 00:50:53.960 Nobody respected Calamity Jane, you know well, but for the driving abilities. 621 00:50:54.280 --> 00:50:59.079 That was the thing that I kind of that struck me as they both made 622 00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:02.400 their way in the West doing the same occupation. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 623 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:07.039 Just it just I can't stop thinking about the two of them and kind 624 00:51:07.039 --> 00:51:10.800 of comparing it. It's atastic, fantastic, amazing to me. Yeah, 625 00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:14.960 so we have a little bit of time left. I did promise that I 626 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:16.920 was going to tell you a snake story. I know, we kind of 627 00:51:17.239 --> 00:51:23.320 keep it professional around here, but I did promise. So I own two 628 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:31.679 snakes, I write, I owe two snakes, and I fed them a 629 00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:36.800 little late. Usually you're supposed to feed them once a week. And I 630 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.559 decided I was going to take out my snake after I was handling the thawed 631 00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:45.039 mice, and I was going to put her in a tupperway cleaner to kind 632 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:51.119 of reduce the aggression in her tank. When I you know, feed her 633 00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:57.960 and She apparently smelled my pinky finger as a dead mouse. And the type 634 00:51:57.960 --> 00:52:00.039 of snake I have is a hog nose, and they have weird thing and 635 00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:05.599 their throat, and so she decided to fang her way up and slightly venomber. 636 00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:12.559 Yeah, and she basically had her mouth to the butt of my finger, 637 00:52:12.679 --> 00:52:15.639 all the way in her throat. That's impressive. And I was trying 638 00:52:15.679 --> 00:52:19.639 to figure out how not to hurt her. But also I was screaming, 639 00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:22.480 bloody murder. My husband's up and down the house like I've never seen this 640 00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:25.840 man moves to the past in his life, right, there's blood everywhere. 641 00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.039 Um. And then she gets off, she eats, she's happy, and 642 00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:32.480 then my hand asides to swell up, and he swelled up, and my 643 00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:37.239 entire poem swelled up. That was the venom. The venom. You know, 644 00:52:37.840 --> 00:52:39.679 garter snakes can do that to you too. I had no idea. 645 00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:45.039 Yeah, yeah, it's it's not obviously going to kill you or anything. 646 00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:47.199 But but that's pretty impressive, Julie, that you're doing all of that. 647 00:52:47.840 --> 00:52:55.199 Yeah, that's a great snake. That's those are great little pets of Western 648 00:52:55.480 --> 00:53:00.519 that's a Western hog knows, Julie. Ye, the pot. Yes, 649 00:53:00.800 --> 00:53:04.039 I will post a photo of her if you guys, you should post a 650 00:53:04.119 --> 00:53:07.440 photo of the of the belly because I don't want to see any snakes. 651 00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:15.119 Yeah, I'm goin to do it. A great discretion, A little cute, 652 00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:19.199 little nose, but they have beautiful bellies. Yes, nice, Yes, 653 00:53:19.360 --> 00:53:22.480 absolutely, And I'd like to throw in before we hang up, I 654 00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:29.639 appreciate this. Uh again, I apologize out there and listener Bill for any 655 00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:35.199 screw ups or cut ups or I personally don't think you did anything. I 656 00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:39.480 think it's very refreshing to hear your voice and your personality after some time, 657 00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:45.440 like it's been a really good time the last couple of months, just randomly 658 00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:49.480 calling you or texting you, and you know, from a friend perspective, 659 00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.039 I missed the crap out of you and I am glad that you're back. 660 00:53:52.599 --> 00:53:57.559 Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity. And again I'm I mean 661 00:53:57.679 --> 00:54:01.800 what I said. I love listening to you all of Matt and his personality 662 00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:06.320 and what he's brought to the table. And it's just been a fantastic pride, 663 00:54:06.719 --> 00:55:52.840 whether I'm on it or not. So congratulated and no