WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:03.520 Don't you always want to be the best you can be. The Frankie Boyer 2 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:08.919 Show it's more than a lifestyle show. It's a show about living in today's 3 00:00:09.000 --> 00:00:14.160 world. I think something is happening. Frankie enthusiastically brings an amazing, eclectic 4 00:00:14.199 --> 00:00:19.120 mix to the airwaves. One of the reasons she's earned legions of loyal fans 5 00:00:19.239 --> 00:00:22.640 is very simple. When you listen to The Frankie Boyer Show, you just 6 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:29.760 never know what's going to happen. So listen for yourself. Here is Frankie 7 00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:37.200 Boyer and welcome. It's Frankie Boyer. Glad you're with us today and joining 8 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:45.280 us someone that I think you're going to all enjoy this conversation today, Michael 9 00:00:45.359 --> 00:00:54.079 Robbins is with us and it is such a fascinating topic in Michael, you're 10 00:00:54.280 --> 00:01:00.240 a leading member of the board of directors of Glystone Corporation. You're on the 11 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:07.879 board of directors of Urban Edge Capital hedge fund, and you develop investment models 12 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:14.359 that allow many management firms to invest in large numbers of stock stocks to produce 13 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:22.439 positive returns. It's also fascinating and I'm so thrilled you with us today as 14 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:29.239 the chief investment officer of six large investment firms. Michael, tell us this 15 00:01:29.280 --> 00:01:33.959 model and tell us about your new book. Hi, thank you for having 16 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:38.120 me. Yeah, I've been investing with quantitative methods for a long long time 17 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.959 now, and they're becoming very popular in the news, which is very good, 18 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:49.200 and they're becoming more powerful, easy to use, and also easy to 19 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:52.760 misuse. So I thought it was a good idea to write a book to 20 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:56.560 try to help people understand how to do that and to do it correctly. 21 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.159 Absolutely, because many of us have no clue what you're talking about. So 22 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:07.520 please take us back a little bit and explain. Because you're using big data 23 00:02:07.919 --> 00:02:14.039 combined with machine learning and AI, and people are like freaked out about all 24 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:17.960 of it. So take a step by step. Please see how people have 25 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:23.879 been using numbers to invest for a really long time, even before computers were 26 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:30.520 popular, and then almost everyone was using a spreadsheet in the early nineties. 27 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:37.879 Then they became very involved in using different type statistics. But statistics are pretty 28 00:02:37.879 --> 00:02:40.879 hard to manage and they require a lot of training to use. Now there 29 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:47.159 are these really powerful machines that can create the statistics sold by themselves, these 30 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:53.919 machine learning algorithms, these artificial intelligence programs. Yeah, and they're really good 31 00:02:53.919 --> 00:03:00.439 at coming up with answers, but the answers aren't always right. Sure, 32 00:03:00.520 --> 00:03:05.360 you've heard some of the stories about chech CBT and how you know some of 33 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.680 it makes no sense, And that's fine when you're writing a letter, but 34 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:13.520 if you're investing real money, you have to be pretty careful about how you 35 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:15.960 use these things and guide them to give you the right answers. I'm not 36 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:21.400 just one that sounds really good, Michael. As your role as a professor, 37 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:27.080 what do you at Columbia? What are you sharing with your students about 38 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:32.240 AI? I just want to ask that question because so many of us are 39 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:40.639 fascinated by it. I interviewed a while ago a couple of young men that 40 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:49.879 are using AI technology to help with a medical device that could possibly be a 41 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:57.159 game changer, and it's so it's so exciting. But tell tell me what 42 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:02.199 you're sharing with your students and what are their concerns you any So, Yeah, 43 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:08.360 their concerns and interests I think are opposite of your viewers. They're really 44 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:14.159 interested and knowledgeable about machine learning techniques and they're just need a lot of help 45 00:04:14.199 --> 00:04:17.519 applying them properly to get the right answers. We do have some students doing 46 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:23.839 cancer research with the National Institutes of Help and they use artistical intelligence extensively, 47 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:30.560 but they're really experts at it. Your listeners, I think, maybe come 48 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.199 from the other end of the spectrum where they might be really interested in using 49 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:39.959 it. They can get their hands on some of the technology through pypon or 50 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:46.920 some other widely accessible technology, and then they run the risk of misusing it 51 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:51.399 and coming up with, you know, these crazy answers. There's a lot 52 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:56.360 of blog posts and people talking about how to use it, and a lot 53 00:04:56.360 --> 00:05:00.439 of these people are either ill informed or they just don't have enough time to 54 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:06.639 give sorrow answer. There's a lot of very simple examples that you can extrapolate 55 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:12.959 and use for yourself. So I think for people who are interested in it 56 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:17.199 but are not schooled in it, I think caution is really the word of 57 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:23.839 the day. So your career is so fascinating. You started out in in 58 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:38.000 physics and later worked in electronic warfare. Then you transitioned into working as a 59 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:46.000 primary prime loan and derivative portfolio manager in Washington's Mutual Treasury department. You've had 60 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:51.480 the most fascinating background. Michael Robbins, I've been lucky that I've been able 61 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:57.800 to make a lot of the opportunities that I found. Like you mentioned, 62 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:01.519 I was originally a physicist, and I joined Wall Street when computers are becoming 63 00:06:01.560 --> 00:06:05.519 really important on the trading desk. They've always always been important in the back 64 00:06:05.560 --> 00:06:10.920 office, but they didn't really know who to hire, and so they hired 65 00:06:10.959 --> 00:06:14.279 physicists, and so I got lucky. And I also got lucky in that 66 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:17.480 the job that I had allowed me to trade all different kinds of things. 67 00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:21.759 So when I graduated from that part of my career, I became a chief 68 00:06:21.800 --> 00:06:27.160 investment officer because I knew a lot about a lot of different investments. And 69 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:31.800 I continue to apply technology to investing, which a lot of people do, 70 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:38.240 but I might have been in a different circumstance than some others, and that's 71 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:43.759 what I'm continuing to do with the Artistical intelligence is just another technology and evolution 72 00:06:43.959 --> 00:06:47.360 in what we did before. But I think people are pretty clear on how 73 00:06:47.399 --> 00:06:55.319 it's dramatically changing some things a little more and faster than we'd like, but 74 00:06:55.480 --> 00:07:00.519 certainly with a tremendous amount of power, and it can't be overlooked and even 75 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:04.600 the average person has access to a lot of these tools and is able to 76 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:11.279 do tremendous things. But I think a lot of people are looking to replace 77 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:18.879 situations that are maybe difficult and cumbersome when technology generally just makes things more complex 78 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:24.839 and more powerful. You know, we saw it with computers. Computers didn't 79 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:29.279 do away with quite as many jobs as they created. Exactly, exactly, 80 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:39.560 Yeah, yes, Yes, a lot of people were afraid of cars driving 81 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:46.720 by themselves, and now we're afraid of that. My point though is that 82 00:07:46.800 --> 00:07:54.879 we've had cruise control for forever and and and there's now a television commercial where 83 00:07:54.920 --> 00:07:59.600 the father is showing the young young child he's going around to Ben and he's 84 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:03.800 not touching the car, and the car is driving itself. And my point 85 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:11.120 though is that it's become part of our marketing culture that we're starting to see 86 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:18.000 this technology taking over. Yeah, and it's very true that things like self 87 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:22.279 driving cars may become better drivers than the average person, especially when you include 88 00:08:22.279 --> 00:08:30.120 all their distractions. And absolutely, absolutely I agree with you. I absolutely 89 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:39.120 agree with you. How did you start to use real life people and tell 90 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.240 us a little bit about It's It's almost as though you're like a clearinghouse for 91 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:50.159 ideas and then finding investors. Is that a little bit of what you're doing 92 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:58.399 well. I do advise companies on how to invest, especially when they kind 93 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:03.840 of built up the company to where they're pretty sizeable and now they need to 94 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:07.279 do things quite differently than they did before. It's a common problem with startup 95 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:11.919 companies that become real companies and then their management is really good at starting things 96 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:16.799 up and new ideas, but not quite as good at integrating with the rest 97 00:09:16.840 --> 00:09:22.440 of the business culture and doing things in you know, a professional, institutional 98 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:26.960 way. But it also really helps that I have all these students feeding the 99 00:09:26.039 --> 00:09:31.919 ideas all the time, and yeah, manage their projects. Yeah. I 100 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:35.679 get to see what hundreds of you know, the mistakes hundreds of people make, 101 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:39.720 and I don't have to make them myselves myself. And that helps me 102 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.679 advise people as well, because I didn't just learn from my career path, 103 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:50.960 but I'm learning from thousands of students. Do you have a research project that 104 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:56.600 you can share with us right now from from your students? Yeah. Yeah. 105 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:03.639 We're using AI on quite a few different investing technologies, from predicting price 106 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:09.320 movements in a short term basis to trying to find new ways to invest in 107 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:18.679 to manage the investments. The traditional ways using statistics are extended in machine learning 108 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:22.360 so that they become a little more powerful. But now that there's these really 109 00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:28.480 powerful large language models like CHATSYPT, we're trying to harness them. They're Okay, 110 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.159 we've got to take a quick break, Michael Robbins. We have to 111 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:35.919 take a quick break. We will be back in just a moment. Give 112 00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:41.080 us the best websites. Oh, my book's website is Quantitative Asset Management dot 113 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:46.679 com, spelled just like it sounds, and we'll be right back. Information. 114 00:10:46.919 --> 00:11:03.679 Yeah, it's Frankie Boyer's stay too, and welcome back. It is 115 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:11.039 Frankie boy You're fascinating conversation today with Michael Robbins. Michael Robbins is really on 116 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:18.159 the cutting edge, leading so many in his teams. And he's also, 117 00:11:18.360 --> 00:11:24.919 by the way, a professor at Columbia and we are so thrilled you're back 118 00:11:24.960 --> 00:11:28.440 with us. Up. You're just hearing sharing some of the students and some 119 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:33.720 of the things that you're doing with your students, and go back and share 120 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:35.559 a little bit. And you're also, by the way, chief investment officer 121 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:45.519 for Larson Financial what's more fun for you being the professor? Well, I 122 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:50.960 do these chief investment offer jobs for short periods of time, usually to try 123 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:56.519 to build up companies. Actually recently left Larson and there are a lot of 124 00:11:56.559 --> 00:12:03.600 fun bringing companies up to speed. But working with the students is just continually 125 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:07.919 fascinating. They're they're always bringing new and interesting ideas and giving me new things 126 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:13.919 to work on. So I would definitely say they're both great parts of my 127 00:12:13.000 --> 00:12:18.960 life that work together. Well, oh, nice, nice, you were 128 00:12:18.000 --> 00:12:28.679 sharing a couple of the stories, and let's go back to how long do 129 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:37.799 you think it will be before we are comfortable with AI in this country? 130 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:46.000 Yeah, that's a tough one, and I think AI is already pretty much 131 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:50.679 everywhere right next. Netflix and Amazon and all these companies use it, but 132 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:56.080 they use it kind of behind the scenes, and people are not really how 133 00:12:56.080 --> 00:13:00.240 are they using Yeah, tell us, tell us how Netflix has used it. 134 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:05.039 Well, whenever you go to their website and they suggest a movie, 135 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:13.360 they're using statistics about what you like and what people like you, Yeah, 136 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:20.480 in order to suggest movies. I think it's a famous urban myth that these 137 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.320 pyites like Amazon know what product you're talking about. With your friends, because 138 00:13:24.360 --> 00:13:30.639 they're so accurate in finding the things that you're interested in and presenting you with 139 00:13:30.679 --> 00:13:37.840 ads that they're just really effective at using bits of data to come up with 140 00:13:37.080 --> 00:13:43.279 a clear picture, and that's only going to get much more pervasive. I 141 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:48.879 think it's more of a privacy issue than anything else right now, that people 142 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:56.399 might get a little weirded out by having so much intelligence software involved in their 143 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:00.919 lives so much of the time. Some people like it, but a lot 144 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:05.679 of people do have problems with it and prefer that things were less powerful and 145 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:09.840 less in sight. Yeah. Yeah, I just was watching an ad for 146 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:18.279 Google versus Duck Duck dot com and they were talking about that. You know 147 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:24.919 about the privacy piece. Yeah, there are people who use websites like Duck 148 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.639 Duck Go and signaled because they believe it affords them more privacy and there's less 149 00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:41.840 information shared. It's it's usually the kind of privacy that is only available when 150 00:14:41.879 --> 00:14:46.519 it's not useful. If you're a criminal and you want to hide your information. 151 00:14:46.679 --> 00:14:50.720 Usually these sites. I don't know about these sites in particular, but 152 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:56.279 companies in general give up your information to the authorities, So it's not really 153 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:01.360 clear to me exactly what the privacy is good for if it's fragile like that, 154 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:07.240 but it will be harder and harder to find. And these sites generally 155 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:13.039 are not as useful as the mainstream sites just because they don't have as many 156 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:16.440 people using them, and so the companies don't have as as as many resources 157 00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:22.559 to build them out and make them competitive. And I think people who want 158 00:15:22.559 --> 00:15:26.039 to live the unibomber life and sit in the woods and not use technology are 159 00:15:26.039 --> 00:15:31.799 going to have to make a lot of concessions that people who are less interested 160 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:37.759 in the privacy will will have to. So are we going to see because 161 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:48.320 the way in which our educational system is right now, our kids they're not 162 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.480 being taught anything. They're picking things up because they're so smart and they've been 163 00:15:52.919 --> 00:15:56.519 you know, they've been exposed to computers for their whole life since they we're 164 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:03.679 babies. So are we only to seek Yeah, So when will the school 165 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:08.039 systems catch up? Michael? I mean, come on, they're not. 166 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:15.240 I don't know about the pre college people, how how well that's going to 167 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:18.519 work. I bet there's going to be a lot of things that they can 168 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:25.679 do without programming. But it reminds me of when I started the business. 169 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:30.720 And I pretty much taught programming to myself when I was a kid, and 170 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:36.440 I was a little worried that this the next generation who grew up with computers 171 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:40.559 when they were kids, would be so much their programmers, and they're really 172 00:16:40.600 --> 00:16:45.840 not. They're they're no better at it than their previous generation was. People 173 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:48.600 are just people, and you know, some of them like complexity and some 174 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:53.840 don't. And I don't really think that the fact that they're growing up with 175 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:57.960 the stuff is really going to change whether they're going to become experts at it. 176 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.519 They will be using it throughout their life and they'll have a level of 177 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.599 competency that maybe some older people will never get. But it would be just 178 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:12.799 that, just competency in using the tools, not expertise. You see it 179 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:18.720 now with people who try to call themselves prompt engineers, who are trying to 180 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:25.039 come experts using Shaypt, Well, they're just basically using an appliance, right, 181 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:30.000 They're not learning how to build new models using mathematics. They're just trying 182 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.440 to use technology that already exists. And so they might become more comfortable with 183 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:37.599 that. I don't know for sure how that's going to work. You're gonna 184 00:17:37.640 --> 00:17:42.599 have to talk to a sociologist about whether they'll be comfortable with machines doing work 185 00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:49.240 that people traditionally thought something that we would do. Are you seeing with your 186 00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:59.000 students at Columbia and they creative place in which they see AI and that it 187 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:03.559 will open up as as you were just sharing the world of cancer, the 188 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:10.880 world of the future is is for me from where I'm sitting as a layperson, 189 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:18.160 sounds extremely exciting. Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely going to be tremendous 190 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:23.160 innovations in medicine and other fields. There is going to be kind of a 191 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.960 middle ground which is going to get left behind, just the same way a 192 00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:33.839 lot of artisans were no longer able to do their jobs. A generation later, 193 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:41.599 there'll be some people who are file clerks and do some administrative tasks the 194 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:45.279 computers will be able to do. But the benefit will be that we'll be 195 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:49.799 able to cure diseases, will be able to fix things, and we'll be 196 00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:53.240 able to make things that are much more complicated than they were in the past, 197 00:18:55.480 --> 00:19:00.599 and that will open up new problems and new jobs and new tools to 198 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:07.319 manage these amazingly complex things. Yeah, it's pretty impressive how complex like a 199 00:19:07.400 --> 00:19:11.119 modern airline is. And I think that's the line. It's so fast. 200 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:15.920 We could talk to you, we could talk to you forever. This has 201 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:19.400 been so terrific. Michael Robbins, thank you so much for being with us, 202 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:25.359 and give us, please the best website, so yeah, thank you. 203 00:19:25.400 --> 00:19:30.079 Please go to Quantitative Asset Management dot com where you can see my book 204 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:36.720 and podcasts and all sorts of other information, and also about my course at 205 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.400 Columbia. If you're matriculated, we'd like to have you as a student. 206 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:44.759 Wonderful. Thank you so much, and we'll take a quick break and be 207 00:19:44.880 --> 00:20:12.039 right back. Frankie Bowyer and welcome back at his Frankie Lawyer. And you 208 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:19.359 know, growing up with Walt Disney and the amazing, amazing impact that he 209 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.960 has had on all of our lives. Brilliant visionary, brilliant, brilliant visionary 210 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:30.359 what we may not know. And I didn't know this until I found out 211 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:36.920 about Disneyland on the Mountain and joining us today Katherine Mayer and Greg Glasgow, 212 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.799 who are the authors of this new book. And I had no idea that 213 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:53.359 Walt Disney wanted to take a ski resort area in southern California and create. 214 00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:03.000 Was it going to be something like Disneyland on the Mountain so Gasin No, 215 00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.359 I mean we call it Disneyland on the Mountain because there was certainly a lot 216 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:10.480 of fear that that was going to happen as far as those who opposed it. 217 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:12.480 But it was, you know, it was it was going to be 218 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:18.880 first and foremost the ski resorts, this outdoor recreation type destination that really kind 219 00:21:18.880 --> 00:21:22.440 of showed off nature, wildlife, that kind of thing. But it was 220 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:27.079 really going to rely more on kind of outdoor activities and kind of to show 221 00:21:27.119 --> 00:21:32.279 off the pristine area. But it was going to have some kind of fun 222 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:38.880 type attractions and of course lots of Disney type magic. So, Greg, 223 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:45.880 you're a longtime writer and journalists for many publications including the Denver Host and Catherine 224 00:21:45.960 --> 00:21:51.359 you're a writer and journalist as well, and all of your publications you've been 225 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:56.279 been doing this and you guys are both married. So how did this project 226 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:00.839 come about? Tell us the backstory about we're both you know, sort of 227 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.000 Disney people. Katherine grew up going to the parks and that kind of thing, 228 00:22:04.039 --> 00:22:07.640 and she kind of put me into it as we you know, our 229 00:22:07.720 --> 00:22:14.160 relationship developed and We actually went to the Walt Disney Family Museum back in twenty 230 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:18.799 eighteen where they had a little mention of this ski resort on a giant timeline 231 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:23.920 of Walt's life, and it interested us right away because his partner on the 232 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:29.160 project, as mentioned on the timeline, was a guy named Willie Schaeffler, 233 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:33.000 who was actually the ski coach at the University of Denver for many years here 234 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:38.240 where we live in Colorado. Katherine actually graduated from the University of Denver and 235 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:42.799 we met working there, so that name really stood out to us, and 236 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:47.640 we started just looking into it and found it was this really big story that 237 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:51.640 involved a environmental battle that went to the Supreme Court. It was like this 238 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:53.920 eighteen year sort of saga that went on, and we thought it would make 239 00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:57.880 a great book. Oh yeah, it's it is a great book. So 240 00:22:59.039 --> 00:23:07.480 the environmental were and I'm so shocked because did Walt realize that it would be 241 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:12.480 a problem for the environment or he was really sick, wasn't he? And 242 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:18.799 much older in the in the time of this whole thing he was, And 243 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:23.839 a lot of the opposition began. There was a little bit of it, 244 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:30.240 certainly at the very beginning, but Walt actually had passed away pretty unexpectedly in 245 00:23:30.359 --> 00:23:33.680 nineteen sixty six, in late nineteen sixty six, and this was, you 246 00:23:33.720 --> 00:23:38.960 know, very soon after they announced this project. So finally there were some 247 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:44.240 you know, there was some opposition to it, but it certainly intensified after 248 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:48.400 Walt Disney passed away. So I think that certainly would have surprised him because 249 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.319 he actually and we talked about this in the book and we're excited for people 250 00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:56.440 who read it to find out more about this, but he considered himself a 251 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:02.200 big conservationist and an environmentalist, that's right. Yea quite a bit of work. 252 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:06.519 Yeah, he did quit work on that side. So that's actually a 253 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:11.279 really surprising part of the story was he created quite a bit of momentum on 254 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:17.880 that he created these very popular wildlife documentaries starting in the late nineteen forties that 255 00:24:17.920 --> 00:24:22.880 won a ton of awards and basically kind of spurred a lot of young people 256 00:24:22.119 --> 00:24:26.400 to then care about the environment. So then later on, the same people 257 00:24:26.599 --> 00:24:33.359 that grew up on these films and and kind of credited well Disney for a 258 00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:37.960 lot of their beliefs then later opposed one of his big creations, right right, 259 00:24:38.000 --> 00:24:41.240 It's so it's so interesting. I just have to ask you, guys, 260 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:48.839 because you obviously did a lot of research on this man, this extraordinary 261 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.480 human being. I think he was such a vision visionary, he really was. 262 00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:56.640 How do you think, how do you think, Catherine, he would 263 00:24:56.680 --> 00:25:03.200 feel about what's happening today with all of his merchandising and the way in which 264 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:11.279 it is spread and the outrageous pricing and all of that. How do you 265 00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:15.960 think he would feel about that today? What a great question. It's I 266 00:25:15.960 --> 00:25:19.559 don't know. I mean, I kind of go back and forth, because 267 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:26.319 you know, it's it's certainly so different than what he originally created. At 268 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:29.759 the same time, one of the things that I that stands out to me 269 00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:33.240 and to us is that, you know, a lot of what the company 270 00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:38.480 did post his death with kind of stay in tune with Walt, and they 271 00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:41.960 really wanted to do things what Walt wanted. And you know, you walk 272 00:25:42.039 --> 00:25:47.960 into Walt Disney World, there's a statue of him there, and we celebrate 273 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:51.680 him a lot. But it'll be it would be really interesting to find out 274 00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:56.519 kind of you know, what he what he certainly thought of how things have 275 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:02.799 gone because there's been so many different Jacks that have been created since he passed 276 00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:07.839 away, and things obviously have gotten very very expensive and unfortunately sometimes kind of 277 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:14.200 price about the average family, which is which is really yeah, just switch 278 00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:18.440 back. I'd love to talk with you guys about this is really important. 279 00:26:18.559 --> 00:26:26.359 Is the the battle to save the Sequoia Groves in the High Sierra from from 280 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:32.880 Disney Resources and whatever happened. Tell us a little bit more about the case 281 00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:38.359 and where it finally ended up. Yeah, So the case, you know, 282 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.720 once this was announced in nineteen sixty five, as we think the book, 283 00:26:41.759 --> 00:26:48.319 this environmental resistance began sort of slowly, and it started very grassroots, 284 00:26:48.359 --> 00:26:51.519 with you know, different protests, and there was some hike in protests. 285 00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:55.880 There was a movie created, flyers and things like that. Nothing really stopped 286 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:59.640 it too much. And then when Disney submitted their final plans in nineteen sixty 287 00:26:59.720 --> 00:27:03.279 nine, the Sierra Club, which of course is one of the biggest environmental 288 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:07.519 groups in the country that still is today, decided to go to the court 289 00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:10.160 with to see if there was a legal remedy, which was sort of a 290 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:12.559 new idea really at the time hadn't been done too much prior to that, 291 00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:18.960 so they filed a lawsuit against the Disney Resort. They it's important to note 292 00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.160 that they never actually named Disney in their suits. They filed it against the 293 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.640 government agencies that were sort of behind, you know, the leasing of the 294 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:27.640 land and that sort of thing, and eventually, you know, they won 295 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.920 on the first round. Eventually on appeal made all the way to the Supreme 296 00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:36.759 Court, and then the Supreme Court made a ruling actually in favor of the 297 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:40.839 Disney Resort. But they ruled in such a way that they sort of created 298 00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:45.480 this blueprint for groups to go forward with environmental cases and kind of show how 299 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.839 they would personally be affected by these. And there was a couple of famous 300 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:53.519 descents in this case that sort of began this idea that the environment, you 301 00:27:53.559 --> 00:27:57.200 know, almost could be its own plaintiff, could stand up for itself and 302 00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:02.559 core So really was a landmark case in a lot of ways. Yeah. 303 00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:07.680 Yeah, Disney Lander on the Mountain. Tell me about the cover, Katherine, 304 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:14.440 who the who who's on the cover? Sure it's Walt Disney is on 305 00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:18.960 the cover. And this is at a scene basically this is in Mineral Kane, 306 00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:25.000 California, where the area where they planned to build this resort, and 307 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.920 this old in this picture I'm sorry. How old is he in the picture? 308 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:34.200 Sixty five? Sixty five and he died actually, believe it or not, 309 00:28:34.359 --> 00:28:38.200 just a few months after this photo was taken. So this was in 310 00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:42.640 nineteen sixty six. This was this was his final press conference, believe it 311 00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:48.000 or not. It was really one of his final public events. And this 312 00:28:48.119 --> 00:28:52.839 was at Mineral Kane, California. They were basically announcing kind of an update 313 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:59.319 to their plans, including the development of this all weather highway that would have 314 00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:03.559 to be did governor California Governor Pat Brown is also in the cover, as 315 00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:08.599 well as a couple other Disney employees and one of Walt Disney's part project who 316 00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:14.640 Greg had mentioned, Willi Schaffler. And yeah, this was a really important 317 00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:18.839 important day of the story and really in Walt Disney's life. Because this was 318 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.880 people were kind of noticing, you know, he doesn't see he doesn't seem 319 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.839 well. Actually, so, yeah, he doesn't look well on the cover. 320 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.680 He just doesn't look well. This has been so fascinating, guys, 321 00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:37.319 Thank you so much because it's a story that for many of us we didn't 322 00:29:37.319 --> 00:29:42.559 we never knew, and I love that you're writing about it. It's called 323 00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:48.400 Disney Land on the Mountain and one of the things before I let you go, 324 00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:56.519 whatever happened to the area that he was looking at. The area really 325 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.160 still is the same today as it was back in nineteen sixty five. Their 326 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:04.039 plans really never got off the ground. This environmental fight just sort of kept 327 00:30:04.119 --> 00:30:10.680 laying things and putting things in lembo, and eventually the area was actually eventually 328 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:15.720 put into Sequoia National Park in nineteen seventy eight by Jimmy Carter, which is 329 00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:18.119 kind of a spoiler alert of how the book ends. But yeah, pretty 330 00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:22.720 much today, I mean there's still a little cabin community there, but really 331 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:26.400 it's remained, you know, thanks to the Fair Club, remained really very 332 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:33.519 Christine natural beautiful area. Give us the best website excellence. So we do 333 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.720 have a website Disneylands on the Mountain dot com. So it's there where you 334 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.240 can find you know, you could buy the book, find different places to 335 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:45.559 buy the book, and please contact us as well. We'd love to hear 336 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:48.960 from people who have read it and you know, tell us what side you're 337 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:52.480 on and what you thought of it. Wonderful. Thank you so much. 338 00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:56.759 We'll take a quick break and be right back. I'm Frankie Boyer, Stay 339 00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:18.039 tune, hi, everybody, Frankie Boyer, and welcome back. I have 340 00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:23.119 been looking forward to this interview. Joining me today is Tracy Zabar. And 341 00:31:23.240 --> 00:31:29.359 for those of you that are savvy enough to live in New York City, 342 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:37.119 you know that name because the most iconic, I mean, is there another. 343 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:41.000 I wouldn't even know what to call it. It's beyond a Delhi, 344 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.799 it's beyond a gourmet food store. It is. It's an institution. It's 345 00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:52.359 zay Bars. And Tracy Zabar is with us today. Tracy, you're a 346 00:31:52.440 --> 00:31:57.519 baker, hey, jewelry designer, author of six books, including One Sweet 347 00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:04.160 Cookie and Chocolate Chip Sweet. Your collections have been sold at Barney's and Bergdoff's 348 00:32:04.279 --> 00:32:07.559 and Browns of London and Kate Spade and oh my God, it goes on 349 00:32:07.599 --> 00:32:14.039 and on and on. You were also the jewelry stylish stylist for Sex in 350 00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:19.400 the City. You're a food influencer, I mean, it goes on and 351 00:32:19.440 --> 00:32:22.799 on and on, and tell us about the cakes from missus Zabar's bake shop 352 00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:29.680 that are featured at zay Bars in New York. First, thank you so 353 00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:36.000 much for inviting me so the way that this book started was I knew I 354 00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:38.960 was going to write a clipbook that was the third in the series of these 355 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:45.039 clipbooks, and I wanted to write a book about cake. And my point 356 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:49.240 of view is I have four brothers and four sons and a husband and a 357 00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.680 grandson, and everybody comes to our house because the food is really good and 358 00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:58.200 I'm always cooking and baking for twenty Wait wait, can one can only imagine, 359 00:32:58.799 --> 00:33:04.119 only imagine your house at the holidays with z bars in the family, 360 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:08.000 I can only imagine. Yes, yes, yes, it's so I mean, 361 00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:14.799 it's so much fun because my boys are very lively and they're there. 362 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:19.640 They all have regular jobs, but they're firefighters and medics on the weekend, 363 00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:23.319 and one of them is with the FDNY, So there's just like lively and 364 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:28.240 loud and it's really really fun. And we have a giant dining room and 365 00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:30.559 a giant kitchen and they only ever want to be in the kitchen, and 366 00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:35.960 so if I ever baked it was. The short story is I was a 367 00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:38.240 jeweler from when I was four years old. I helped my father, he 368 00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:40.799 was a jeweler and an auctioneer, and when I was forty nine, I 369 00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:44.359 was like, enough already, I don't want to do it anymore. So 370 00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.519 now I only do it once a week. And I went to culinary school 371 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:51.440 not to stand on my feet for twelve hours a day, but because I 372 00:33:51.480 --> 00:33:55.119 wanted to write book books because I love to bake. So when we're taking 373 00:33:55.160 --> 00:34:01.559 my favorite brainstorm, this this book, you started talking about little cakes, 374 00:34:01.599 --> 00:34:05.680 and I was like, why would anybody make a little cake? You go 375 00:34:05.720 --> 00:34:07.960 to the store, you stand in the kitchen, you bake. It's the 376 00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.400 same as making a big cake, but like, why would you do it? 377 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:13.559 And then all of a sudden, even though my kids are here a 378 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:15.280 lot, we had an empty nest. My kids, we're grown up, 379 00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:20.639 and we have you know, salad and a chicken breasts we split for dinner, 380 00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:22.119 and we didn't want a great, big cake in the house that we 381 00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.760 would eat for three days and it would be gone. And then I started 382 00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:32.320 noticing a trend. So I was taking a charge of ordering for the cake 383 00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:38.960 counter at say Bars, and I started going to bakeries all over Brooklyn and 384 00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:45.639 New Jersey and some New England and Westchester, and I started noticing that people 385 00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:50.559 were still buying big cakes, but they were buying multiple little cakes, and 386 00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:52.119 I was like, oh, this is interesting, this is a trend. 387 00:34:52.599 --> 00:35:01.079 And then I started going to baby namings and showers and wed showers and different 388 00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:07.039 gatherings that instead of a cake, there were little cakes all lined up with 389 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:12.719 like tiny slices already cut in them, and each one had a cake server 390 00:35:13.039 --> 00:35:15.320 and people would take a little bit of this and a little of that. 391 00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:19.880 My thought, this is amazing. It's such a great idea because if there's 392 00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.000 one cake and it's a coconut cake and you don't like coconut, what do 393 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:27.039 you do? But this way you get a little taste. So I decided 394 00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:30.360 it's a trend. There's hardly any books. There's no books written on this 395 00:35:30.440 --> 00:35:35.000 subject. A few small batch baking books. So I was like, okay, 396 00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:38.760 I'll write a book. And so I started to explore my favorite cakes, 397 00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:44.960 and I will insert that the last two books, the Once Wee Cookie 398 00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.440 I wrote with the seventy best chefs in New York and the next one was 399 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:53.159 forty five or fifty of the best pastry chefs all over the country. And 400 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:55.760 so this one, I wanted this one to be mine, my mind mind 401 00:35:55.800 --> 00:36:01.039 mind. So I just scale down my recipes and I did a lot of 402 00:36:01.079 --> 00:36:06.320 research, and I think we probably could have had three or four more volumes 403 00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:09.199 because there's a million kicks out there. But I just love the cakes. 404 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.000 And am I allowed to say that I love the cakes in this book? 405 00:36:13.719 --> 00:36:16.159 And you pick a favorite of like when you look through the book, did 406 00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:21.199 you pick something you want to do? Oh my god? I well, 407 00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:25.400 everything, because but I don't do sugar and gluten. So I take your 408 00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:31.639 ideas and I transform them in my kitchen with my almond flour and my gluten 409 00:36:31.679 --> 00:36:37.679 free, sugar free and the alchemist that I am and create as well magnificent, 410 00:36:38.400 --> 00:36:43.840 and I think I do everything cakes that have no gluten anyway, that's 411 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.159 right, that's right, good cake or two. So you can already thought 412 00:36:46.159 --> 00:36:50.719 of that. And I'm sorry if you can hear my other phones bringing My 413 00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:55.039 child just got engaged two days ago and everybody is calling, so how I'm 414 00:36:55.159 --> 00:36:59.519 citing? No, no, no, that's okay. So the new book, 415 00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:04.360 though, it's just exquisite, absolutely tracy. It is so beautiful, 416 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:13.239 sweet little cakes from missus Zabar's bake shop. And when when one looks at 417 00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:19.039 these, you just can't help but say wow, and what you've done though, 418 00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:23.760 is you've given us an opportunity to create whatever we need. You and 419 00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:29.360 the ingredients that you say we should always use fresh, and I agree with 420 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:35.000 you, fresh ingredients that are at their peak now and as we move into 421 00:37:35.000 --> 00:37:39.000 autumn. And I love that you did that this book. Yeah, I 422 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:43.119 am. You know we have day bars. My husband and I are of 423 00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:50.800 ficionados of farm stands and you know local greengrocers. And you know it used 424 00:37:50.840 --> 00:37:57.280 to be if you wanted a raspberry you I don't mean a parcel of raspberry 425 00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:59.599 the box. The raspbers who want to one of them will cost you five 426 00:37:59.639 --> 00:38:02.840 dollars out of season. And now there's lots of fruits and vegetables that are 427 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.239 available all year around, but there's lots that aren't that are only available. 428 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.480 So that was why, exactly what you said, I split it up until 429 00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:17.000 four seasons so you could love it. We've got to run everybody. Check 430 00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:22.119 out Tracy's website. Go ahead and give it Tracy zabar dot com and it's 431 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:28.280 Tracy with an ey or go to zabars dot com and put your email in 432 00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:34.079 and every other week you'll get a different cookbook review and a recipe and a 433 00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:38.239 chance to win amazing, amazing baskets and prizes from Zabars. Thank you so 434 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:43.559 much, wonderful, Thank you so much, Tracy Zabar, and thank all 435 00:38:43.599 --> 00:38:45.760 of you. This has been another edition of the Frankie Boyer Show. Thanks 436 00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:50.559 for listening. Make it a great day, everybody, And as always, 437 00:38:50.840 --> 00:39:05.920 smiles with subset will go to maybe ever sow here and if it's smile, 438 00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:13.639 help read our fears and start smile, and maybe tomorrow you'll see the light 439 00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:22.559 is still worth while if you tomorrow. But some more