Hm. We are joined by Brian into Insomnia Games hot off the presses,
I guess from the release of Spider Man two. I'm very excited to have
you there. I'm joined by Lucy James, of course, and we are
going to be talking about Spider Man two in this spoiler cost That's what we're
talking about. That's what we're doing. Do you know have you heard of
that game? I haven't played any other games, so that's probably so.
Yeah, we're going to dive deep into the game and the story. So
if you haven't played it, first of all, you should probably go play
that and then come back to check this out. But yeah, let's get
straight into it. So, Brian, obviously successful first game and then the
successful kind of spin off game based on that, You're coming up to Spider
Man two. What is it as a team that you go into it thinking
that your objective is and what do you want to achieve with a follow up
game? Great question one is I think first one was really about, hey,
can we do it right? Can we can? We? We've never
worked on a license I peop before, obviously something working on something like something
as popular as Spider Man, like probably the most popular Marvel character. You
know, it's like, hey, can we prove we can do it?
And now thank you for the compliment that the first one was successful. It's
like, okay, can we do it again? And expectations are real,
right, it's it's real. And I think whereas before people are like,
hey, can they just do it? Now, it's like they have these
expectations like, oh, it's going to be everything and more and I and
that can be It can be intimidating, it can be like very stressful,
very stressful. I think think what we kind of said was okay, kind
of let's think about things in three buckets. One is, don't screw it
up, Like, here are the things that, like, don't make it
worse, like people love swinging around the city. Don't make that worse.
Like, just find the things that that will make it better. So that's
an example. And then there's like, okay, hey, we we we've
played the game ourselves, we've seen what fans are saying, we've read the
reviews. What are areas like boss fights or injecting more narrative and exploration and
the side content. That's stuff that we can actually improve upon. Okay with
that stuff, And then The third thing was, hey, we know this
is we knew very early on this was going to be a PS five only
game, like we were going to make it exclusive for the PS five.
What can we do whether it's the way we're leveraging the console, what we
want to do from set pieces, you know here we're switching all different features,
like how can we take advantage of the PlayStation five? And that's kind
of how the journey starts, so like the pillars of the game kind of
represent that that journey. It's like, you know, we obviously we want
to you know, tell a story of two Spider Man right, that was
like something right, and we want to say, okay, how can we
you know, make this more of a reactive city, so having more exploration,
discovery, more narrative, having more cause and effect. So like seeing
the aftermath of the Sandman fight. You know that that the early on in
the mission where they're in the boat, the overturn boat were craving leanscropping first
cephal missions later you can see the boat still in the water, right,
And I think because like you know, in Spider Man one, we had
that one mission where like you know, the helicopter or that's what you know
in that it's a cool sequence, right, but like in video game world,
if you just turn your head out of the missions, almost it's gone,
and we want to have more of that cause and effect. And then
it was like, hey, looking at combat and traversal, which I thought,
we're relatively really good in the first two gate the first game, what
are things we can add to that? Just up that more? And then
the fourth thing was like really like taking those those back to pieces and really
upping, like making them bigger. Reason one reason why we started with Samdman
in the beginning, and then all the different ways we could leverage the console,
so kind of that was kind of the journey that we went on with
this game. Yeah, when it came to the narrative as well, I
think let's just kind of jump right into it because now it can let's do
it. When did the idea for Venom, you know, Harry being Venom
kind of come about? And how important was it to us a team to
implement that in a way that feels like you're going on a journey with the
characters and it feels like an authentic to really really I would say probably halfway
through Spider Man one, like because we you know, we had that teaser
scene and that shows Norman in the tank and Harry with the cymbia, right,
so we knew that, yes, we're kind of hitting ourselves in the
corner, like you better do. I mean, we could have like said,
oh, that's another thing, but we knew that's where we want to
go, right. And I think that, you know, I's there was
a reason why the black suit wasn't the Symbio suit wasn't in that first game.
I think I even said at one point after the game ship, I'm
like, oh, that that kind of story that it needs its own game,
and that's what we do. But we did, And I think the
kind of the the are kind of guiding light through this whole nine years of
working on Spider Man has been like, let's respect the DNA of the franchise,
yeah, but let's not be afraid to mix things up. So,
for example, I think Venom is a good example of that. Like you
look at Venom. If you're a fan of Venom, I hope when you
see Venom you're like, oh, that's I recognize that character. He has
the traits, the personality, the characteristics of a great Venom. But the
host is different, it's Harry because we wanted to have more of a we
want to have a character who had more of an emotional attachment to our heroes,
right, So that's that's one of our change ups, right. And
then we did little things like you know in the comics the Venom has multiple
weaknesses, like its fire is and I freak. We said, hey,
can we just limit it to to sound, because it'll be not It'll just
be I don't want to sit there and go, Okay, everybody, boys
and girls, here's the lessons on symbiotes, and here's the five different ways
it's weak. Let's just pick one and make it something unique and interesting.
So but I think the the number one thing that we talked about Venom was
we want to make it our own story. Yeah, and we and it
was and this is gonna sound. I hope this didn't come across. She's
like, how can we make this an emotional Venom story? And I that
was kind of the thing like I'm really proud of is that, you know,
even though Harry's motivation once the the symbio is, I mean, what
he wants to do healing the world is right the way he's doing about it
through the cymbio is wrong. So I think we always want to that's kind
of important to us as like there's something with every whether it's you know,
Auto, whether it's Tinker, and now it's whether it's Venom, there's something
you can connect to with with the with the villain. Yeah, I was
gonna say, like you talked about expectations, like it must become more tricky
to kind of obviously you're you're playing with the same pieces that a lot of
other stories have. In the first one, you had the Auto story,
which is something that has been done before, but you kind of subvert it
in really interesting ways. And the expectation from a narrative point is like the
more games you make, the harder that gets. Right, Like so,
and the way you did it with Venom was I think done really well because
up until then, like Venom is Eddie Brock and he's kind of like down
on his luck that kind of thing. But the fact that you went with
Harry was very very unexpected. And it also unless I'm like reading it wrong,
like it let you work in stuff like Agent Venom, like that that
costume and that kind of stuff. I mean that that Harry moment is very
much inspired. Yeah, so like that remixing, How hard is it to
get that? I know people always ask like how hard is it to work
with Marvel to do that stuff? How hard is it for you to kind
of draw those connection points? Like most people wouldn't think of, oh,
agent Venom perfect Harry, you know, I don't. It's I'm trying to
remember. I'm like, Okay, when did we think of agent ven I
think I think what we started was was what is the path of getting to
Venom? Right? Like what like like we were kind of starting what's the
end? Right? Okay? We want Harry to be venom? All right?
Now? At what point? In like is to sound really complicated,
but it's not. It's like, Okay, I look at the lore and
I'm like, okay, what are the elements that people If we don't do
it, they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna be really mad, Like you,
some point you need, no matter what we do, we need some point
where Pee gets the symbiom, and we need some point where he doesn't have
the symbiote anymore, right, Okay, so like we need those things to
happen. Well, all right, but we want to but we we know
we've seen Harry in the tank with the symbio. Now how does it go
from Harry in the tank to having the symbio? But he's not Veno and
yet because he hasn't been bonded with Peter yet, and then how can it
get to Peter? And then so he starts like it's like a puzzle,
like and what you have is you have all these pieces, but then what
you realize is like the puzzle pieces actually don't fit, so we start cutting
the pieces of the puzzle fit thing. And I think it kind of starts
with that, and then you go like you just geek out, man,
you just like figure like I read this comic book and I saw this thing,
Agrian Venam, What if all of a sudden we said Harry wants to
not only be as part and are in business, but also wants to be
a superhero like that kind of thing. Yeah, that's the question. Like
the follow up to it is like how early how much of this is is
like fortuitous because the idea of you know, reach the end and you realize,
oh, part of this is Harry feels really powerless and that you don't
really realize up until the very last moments that it's not just because he wants
to feel healthy again. He wants to feel like he's got some ability to
affect the world and it's being perverted. Like was that always the plan or
is that like, oh, that element allows us to connect to this element.
I wish I could tell you that I'm so smart that I plan all
out and we're so brilliant. It's one of those things that just comes through
iteration, Like you know, where as we start working on the story,
you know, basically we sit in a room and we just take a bunch
of not cards and we're just plotting out like okay, this is this is
gonna happen first, and then this and this, and then we like,
okay, this is a story. We want. Now what missions? What
would you actually do? Because it's you know, you got to play the
game, just not watching a movie, right, And I think what happens
is you start to move all those pieces around and play it around. You
start to the game in the development process kind of shows you where to go,
if that makes any sense, Like, for example, I don't even
though we wanted to make a story about Pete and Miles I'm not going to
sit here and lie to you and say it was a It was totally from
day one to be about them. One percent is going to be like,
oh, they both have something happened in their past, the death of aunt
May, Martin Lee responsible for his father's death. They're going to go on
a journey on you know, let's just say January one of twenty nineteen.
They're going to go on a journey where they have to learn to move beyond
the past they could move forward. That kind of came as we started putting
things together and we're like, because like in the risk going okay, what's
relatable thing? Okay, and then we're like, okay, so what what
if if Peter's in the dealing with aunt May? Like what is what is
Miles obstacle? And that was really important, Like yes, they have this
story of like Craven coming to town and then eventually Symbiot. We want to
have these individual stories and we're like, listen, we we haven't really been
with Pete since on May passed away, so like, I mean, we
all know we've lost them in others them in their lives, like it's it
impacts you in many sometimes in obvious ways, not the bivist ways. You
can see it obviously impacting Peter. And then I'll say and then it impacts
him going I lost on May. I ain't losing Harry in no way,
right, So that and then you look at Miles and you're like, Okay,
what's a relatable story for a seventeen eighteen year old? And we're like
and I go, oh shit, like like can I sparing us? Okay,
okay, sorry, sorry, I know I've asked that every single time
after I do it, and uh, and we go, well, I
remember how stressful was to apply to college and then writing that college essay going
like or universe, I'm like what am I gonna write? And him kind
of distracting himself and seeing his friends and like making confident next steps and and
we're like and then we then you start to like you start to like play
around those pieces and we're like, wow, like, well we could bring
Martin Lee back, and Martin Lee kind of it's you got to start doing
like and that's the really fun part, Like it is thinking about those days
is like kind of you're like, oh my god, like we had like
what we're gonna do? But that's where like that's the fun part of the
job, right, is to kind of put it all together and you see,
like I mean, it's really like putting a puzzle when you find like
ah, I found it, and it goes in right and then you know.
But then there's like the but then there's the thing where you have the
the story treatment and it reads right on paper and you start writing scripts and
you're like, well, that stinks. That's not gonna work that or like
we start putting that mission together, that's not gonna work, and then you're
tinkering again, you're moving things around. So I've learned, and it's I
think I'm feeling like I'm crystallizing this thought as you asked that question. It's
like a game kind of tells you where to go, Like you have an
idea of where you want to go, but let the experience happen naturally.
And I think sometimes when you're like it has to be this no matter what,
now, there are some things I can tell you, Like I was
like, we're starting with Samman no matter what, Like we're gonna make it
work. And maybe maybe that's not a good thing, but I was like,
we're gonna start with Saman, but other things you kind of like ride
the wave. You know, Okay, I see us heading in this direction,
let's go that. Like, you know, I knew we were gonna
start with Saman. I knew at some point you're gonna play Venom like I
didn't want. I didn't want. I didn't want the Internet to talk about
not playing the Venom right, So, like you put some you know,
stakes in the ground, but these other things you got to learn to bend
because these games are too big, too complicated, and like once you make
something interactive, it just becomes that much more difficult. So you gotta be
willing to bend a little bit. And also, like I work with really
smart people, I want them to tell me what we should do, not
me tell them what to do. Like I can tell you we can go
through every mission, every story point in the game, and I can point
to three to twenty people who go took that and made it ten times better.
So I just like I don't want to know. It's not you know,
our our games are made collaboratively, and we are always kind of it's
it's what is the best idea that we have in West Worm one, we
go with it. Doesn't come. It's not it's not that sitting room go
all right, I got all the answers. I don't I don't even want
that responsibility. It's not because I think everything what people bring to the to
the table is just so much more interesting. I want to talk to you
a little bit about one of my favorite missions in the game is with the
Coney Islands going around effect, because it definitely feels like in a game full
of such huge, bombastic moments, it was this really nice, just very
human interaction between the three friends, and I really love the way that obviously
it culminates in a very bastation, yes, but the way that those interactions
were just felt so genuine. Yeah, And so where did you know the
the idea for that come from? How do you kind of craft a scene
like that one? So I can tell you it started with the idea of,
like, hey, so we did the Halloween party in the first game,
how can we drive everybody crazy with something even crazier in the second game?
The in the next Insperiment two, we're like, we're gonna build Broken
and Queens. There's Coney Island and we could just do that. So there
was that there's and I think we're like, oh, they would be really
cool to go around to Coney Island and play all the mini games and have
this thing. But the real, the real answer is we talk about Spider
Verse, the Spider Verse films, and they have their own identity the way
they do things, right, you look at the MC and Spider Man,
they handle it a certain way. They chap their own identity. And I
feel like when you look at our Spider Man franchise is something I'm really proud
of. Nothing they have to do, didn't do this stuff. But I'm
saying like, for us, a big focus has been like a three hundred
and sixty degree view of the world. And I think that you know,
it's why not. Yes, we have Pete and Miles in their suit and
they're doing cool things, but it's just important to see their lives outside the
suit. It's also why MJ's playable. It's we want to see these characters.
We want to see Well, guess what, Pete Miles aren't the only
people in the world in this world, right we have characters who are important
to the story, to the world and they don't have super powers. What
are they like? But the most I always say, we want to deliver
the fantasy of superheroes, but we want to deliver a very human story with
believable characters just as much because you don't care about the stuff in the suit
if you don't care about the stuff outside suit. So I was like,
we were like, we're gonna do moments like Conye Island where it's just three
friends catching up and enjoying a good time in Conyel and somewhere they grew up
and probably enjoyed as kids. That's I think we can all find. Like,
you know, I think like to me was going to the arcade,
Like I love going to the arcade with my friends, or when I got
a little bit older, drink a little bit more, I could we could
go bowling together, Like you know, I think about those moments like you
go down that trip of memory Lane, and that was kind of the reason
to get that human side of the story in there and to do it on
a on an interactive level. For me, I love Cone Allen, but
I would say the Queen's Mission where they went back to Midtown High is very
similar. Yeah, like riding the bikes together and then like doing the flashbacks
in between, and like running through the hallways and stuff. So I think
it's just I don't want to make these games if we don't do those missions.
I just I like, I'll never I'll never not do those like in
a way like especially you know, even in like the most bombastic things,
we should be able to still have a huge Like I was just watching Endgame
the other day because it was like the anniversary of Tony Hawk Tony Stark diy.
I don't want to say Tony Hawk Tony Stark dying. Yes, yes
he is, thank god. And I was thinking about Endgame, right,
it's this bombastic, crazy setting, like some guy purple and have this finger,
fifty percent of things go away, right, But if you look at
all of the motivations and the stories and the arcs of all of those Avengers
completely relatable. Tony doesn't want to lose what he's gained, Thor feels responsible
for what he did. Natasha is just lonely. Those were Yes, it's
crazy circumstances, but their their story is so like normal, right, Like
it's just in a weird time, is just in a weird world. So
I think that's that's something I always want us to do in our games.
In our Spider Man games, and I think that it's something from day one
we want to do. We've always just wanted to do it more and more
and more if those games go on and games go on. One of the
things that I like about these games and your team's approach to it is that
you apply that same kind of humanizing and relatability to the villains as well.
And it feels like redemption is a big part of this story. Like how
I mean, like I guess the question is like what came first, Martin
Lee or anti Venom? Like did you know you want an anti venom in
this game? And Martin Lee came because of that, and you knew you
could also kind of like redeem him to it because that was like fascinating.
And then the other part of this is like in a very bold move,
like you seemingly killed off a bunch of villains and there's almost like a sympathetic
quality Like when I heard that you know Scorpion was dead, that you know
and I seen Tombstone, Yeah, that was quite weirdly emotional for me because
it's like you have a history and there's almost like, as Spider Man fans,
you just expect them to be there to do that dance. But then
you have this agent of chaos in Craven who appears and just starts wiping the
board off. What was the kind of thinking behind that? So I do
think, you know, we we probably work on the villains as much as
we do the hero because I think we've grown away from this everything's a mustache,
truly. I want to blow up the world and want to I want
revenge. Right that we've we've I think everybody is gonna move beyond that,
right, So we always say we want the villains to be the heroes of
their own story. I know I stole that from somebody. I'm not that
smart. I know someone said that that's really a lot smarter than me.
But I remember it's something that's kind of grain in my head. And we've
always said, like, you know, Martin Lee in many ways is you
know, he's a he was basically experimented on, right, and he you
know, and now he was a little bit obviously more on the revenge side,
right, but he's a man who's really hurt. I mean, you
know, normally a lot of it was responsible for. But in terms of
your question about anti venom and Martin Lee. I can tell you there's I'm
not sure what came first in termed the Chicken or the Egg and there,
but I can tell you that we knew. We knew the symbio powers gonna
be really popular. Like we knew once we put Pete in the black suit
and the symbil suit and they're gonna like, oh, this is awesome because
it's a power fantasy, right. We also knew if we took once,
we're gonna take him away. People are pissed, and we're like, okay,
we got ven Miles is like, you know, like got all these
cool powers. Now we got Pete with the arms, but like people are
gonna miss those smile powers. And we're like, okay, what can we
do And I'm like, wow, we do have anti van and we could
have we can do that. And I was like well, and then I
think someone said like, well we could also you know in the lore anti
Venim is mister negative and the symbio come yeah, right, And we're like,
well, if we do that, then Martin Lee's back in the game,
and then we can have Miles have a story with him that ties to
him. It's the puzzle people again. Right, So, yeah, that
was I don't know if it's happy circumstances or knowing the lore and those kind
of things and like having a lot of puzzle pieces to play with, but
I do think one of my favorite moments in the game is that moment between
Miles and Martin Lee, just so he can't forgive them, right, he
has that he can't let this bother, and that's that's the moment where Miles
can finally write the essay. Like, that's the moment like he needed to
do that in order to write the essay, right. And again that's one
of our writing team getting together and going how we're gonna map out Miles' story
and now we're gonna have Martin Lee and how and then it coming through and
then obviously then you have two amazing actors who take your script and make it
even better. So yeah, it's like, but I and you talk about
the deaths. I know they do this in comics because there's you know,
well they're just they're bringing them back, right, I get it. And
not not to say that's right or wrong whatever I think for us as like,
I just think there has to be real consequences to things. Happening,
and I think that, you know, if we're gonna do it, like
if all that if I like, if we're saying Craven's this brutal character who's
like really like he's a mysterious brutal character who has like this weird fascination with
like I want to find the person who's gonna be strong enough to defeat me,
and I'll be happy with my death, right, he wants a good
death basically, Well, if I was Sten, I said, like,
well, guess what, Scorpion and Vulture whoever aren't really dead. It kind
of weakens his story, right, and like or like you know, all
of a sudden, like you know, we have this big emotional thing with
on May and I'm like, oh, guess what some random character came back
and resurrected or like yeah, yeah, all that thing was for not So
it's like it's having like real stakes, real consequences, Yeah, And I
think like it. It also plays into the idea that when Pete has the
venom suit, there's the idea of he could just kill him off. Yeah,
And there's that the mention of it where I think you will. Martin
Lee actually talks about it and he's like, I think he's scared of what
he could do as Venom, and like you see that, Oh, this
is what it means, is what Craven is actually doing. Like yeah,
and in certain respects, Craven by killing them off, has actually helped the
city in a more meaningful way than Spider Man has pointing them in the wrong.
We even talked about I think at one point we even talked about how
like do we even have Jamison talk about like, well, yeah, this
is a good thing and stuff like that. There's so many it's thing we
have so many characters in the scams, like sometimes juggle all these storylines is
the same we have. Thank God for a writing team, they follow along
better than I do. But yeah, I think that it's just really important.
Like I think back to like just my favorite superhero movies, Like I
think kill Monger is probably one of the best villains in the MCU because,
like kill Manger, you totally understand his motivation, why he wants to do
it. He just goes about it the completely wrong, complete wrong way,
right, there's an level I guess empathy would be the word for they for
these characters in a bit, And I think that's now Craven's a little bit
of an X factor because he's just so like but like, but then you
learned that he's dying, yes, and you're like, oh, yeah,
well I don't I can't relate to it, but I can see how it
can be exactly, So you know, I do think that I'm really first
of all, thank you for the compliment about the villains, because it's it's
really hard because you can screw them up really easily, and we work really
hard to get it right. Because yeah, it's just I mean, if
a guy wearing a line vest, you know, it's like sometimes you know,
I love I mean, as a comic book fan, I love that.
I love the look of him. I think you look super cool.
But like, you know, we got to make you understand him and be
scared of him and believe him. You know, that's the most important thing.
So same thing with Venom, you know, seeing like that giant,
you know thing, you got to understand there's a person in there. Yeah.
For me, I think, like what I really appreciate as a longtime
fan of Spider Man is in so many X games specifically, I think have
been the best iteration of those characters in a long time because for better or
for worse, they kind of marvels kind of turned a lot of the character
into kind of jokes right now with like you know, you've got Venom through
the Venom movies, Like they have their value, but it's played for Lass
in a lot of ways. And same with like Morbius and and like Craven's
now got his own movie coming out and believe, but these are like this
was like a reminder of why Craven is fearsome and I haven't had that in
a long time since, maybe since like the original animated series where I was
like, oh, this dude's scary. Yeah. I think for us,
at the end of the day, it's just focusing on you know, we've
set us. I think it's for us, like we always talk about tone,
and I think that for us, it's just what we try to do
is have a consistent tone for the world and the characters in the game.
So I think that's it's not about one way is right, one way is
the wrong. It's just we felt like this is what we want to do.
We want to have I would say, larger than life characters that you
believe. Yeah, I think that's kind of that's kind of the way we
look at it, like I don't want to like, I'll never I never
want us to be embarrassed of the of the lore and the costumes and stuff
like. Now now we're going to embrace it, and we're gonna do a
way that makes you like love it. Yeah, I think a good example
of embracing that is I'm interested in how whether it was a discuss, whether
you found yourself being like, is this too far the inclusion of Scream as
a character, because obviously Scream is like one of a few symbio characters and
it's not as far as I remember in any instance, been Mary Jane before.
So like, that's where it starts to be, like, you're delving
into symbio mythology. Yeah, so I can tell you that we were always
going to have her turn into a symbio and actually the first concept we did
is actually of her, but she's more like black and white. It kind
of looked more like them kind of thing. And then you know, this
is where you kind of go, all right, we're gonna put the Marvel
hat on for second, and we're like, well, she has red hair
already. We don't have any plans for scream. Why can't Harry turn her
into scream? Like and just and it's like, if you know, you
know, like if you're a Marvel fan, you're like, that's cool,
that's scream And she has all the ability to scream, and if you don't,
you're like, oh, Harry, just like he turned other people on
symbios, he turned MJ into this type of cymbia. It's more like that.
Because I was going to see Speaking of m and you said, like
so many more characters. I really loved the the impact felt on them way
more like I think particularly the screen fight when MJ obviously under the influence of
the symbia, but like the stuff she says like God couples therapy, She's
basically like here's everything that you're terrible and it's really effective because like I was
distracted while playing it listening to her, being like wow, this is awful
and like I'm getting my ass kicked at the same time, but also like
not not just the fact that you know she's dealing with essentially being like left
behind by Peter a lot, like she is absolutely second to Spiland, but
like everything with her job, like as soon as she's like, Oh,
I've got to hit these metrics. I've got to get on the front page.
This girl compromises through it, and she is going to she's compromising herself.
But that's that's the thing, like we talked about, like that's something
somebody might actually have to go through and like maybe are they going to make
decisions for the right reasons for the wrong reason she realized she was going down.
She eventually realized that she's going down a path that she doesn't believe it
and it was like complete does something else? Yeah, I think that MJ
is a really important character to me because I do think she provides a perspective
on a viewpoint of the world that you get we need to see from the
from Pete and Miles obviously have this really we we've seen their their perspective a
lot in terms of like we see how they see the world. What is
it like on the other side of that relationship, what is it like?
And I think that And I think the other thing is when we talk about
Cymbia in many ways we talk we talk about the addiction a lot, right
and you and there's you know, at certain points, like you see Peter
kind of loses himself to it and it changes personally changes, and he says
things like, I mean, could you ever imagine Peter is saying to you
know, I'm not the You're not the hero I am. Like he says
that, like you know, he would never he would never say to Harry's
once you go pop some more pills and you know, and or or you
know, yelling at her for her headline and stuff like that, And I
think, you know, you talk about some of the exchanges. One of
my some of my favorite stuff is the fight between Miles and Peter, and
and to me, that's like it's real, It's it's happening during the combat,
but it's actually really emotional and like you can hear Peter like trying to
justify himself and Miles is like you gotta. And I think the thing is
with both that that that fight with Peter and then with the one with Scream
is like we we talked about not only the impact on the person who's under
the you know, the symbio, how does that impact the people around them?
And I think that we realize is like your friend we talked about is
your friends and family and everybody around you can only get you a certain way,
but at the end of the day, it's you that to take the
final stuff. That's why Peter is the one at the end that rips it.
It's why MJ kind of goes, I'm going over here for the sound
to kind of rip it off. It's like that final step needs to be
taken by you. And it's kind of the same thing happens with Harry.
He's like he's the one who goes, Pete do it. Yeah, you
know, so I think you know it's it's I'm not trying to say,
oh, like we were telling all the levels levels of addiction and now it's
but we did. It's just kind of again like taking this big crazy thing
about an alien substance and trying to add some believable believability about what these characters
are going through. Yeah. I think one of the most interesting kind of
takes that you guys have put into this game, and it feels like a
like a pot bubbling and just about to flow over the entire time is Norman
Osborne, where like, if you know the universe, you just that's it
will happen. You're waiting for the bomb to like explode and I really love
the way that you guys played with it, where he's he's more doing as
a father than he ever has been before, even though you can tell it's
kind of like not all genuine. And then the way like you play with
colors with green and like the way it builds up, and then if you
know, like the Goblin story, the way he starts to be more like
fatherly towards Pete, you're like, oh, no, we know where this
is going. Yeah, there's a One of my favorite scenes is when so
Pete screams at Harry and MJ and then he goes sees he goes to he
sees Norman yelling and they have that like very solid father sim moment. And
that's what Harry overhears a little bit and he's like, oh, so I'm
basically being replaced. Yeah, Norman. First of all, Mark Rolston is
our actor who plays Norman Osborn, and like, that's just like yep,
Mark, you just do what you want to do. We're going to record
it, right. I When we think of Norman and where we're going,
I think I'm glad you said sympathetic, because I think there's a there's a
or I don't know if I I said it, maybe you said, I
don't know, but I want I wanted, I wanted to get I think
we want to get away from like this, the very like the expected storyline
with with Norman, Like we I think if we make if we can,
the way we're going, what could happen to him maybe might be more understandable.
Yeah, I think the setup is definitely there, because like it's easy
to forget because you play the game for thirty hours, but like he's the
one that put the symbia into play, so like, and then at the
end where he's like, you know, what have you done to my boy?
To them, he's really trying to deflect from the fact that he started
all of this. And then the ending obviously where he's trying to get the
names of who they are out of doc Cock. You can tell like,
oh, he's fixating his like kind of obsession on them being the problem.
And it's a really fantastic setup that I hope, like you guys explore further.
Well, I will tell you that scene I've had in my head between
Auto and Norman since the beginning. I said, I don't do a lot
of things right, but I said, if we can get this, if
we can get if we can if we can go down the path, I
go. I want that last scene between last scene to be between Auto and
Norman having that conversation. So if we ever, you know, continue doing
these things, we can you know, if we're to see because you know
they're so adversarial on that first game, Yeah, that relationship changes, you
know, and I think it could be fun to explore. Yeah. I
like how menacing it is when Otto is like when he tells them like,
hey, he tells him like they, you know, hurt my son.
He's like good, good, yeah, and you're like, oh, this
is about to be a really awful like partnership. Yeah. One of the
others got me excited. Yeah. One of the other smaller stories that I
really really like appreciated with Tombstone, like that that idea of rehabilitation, and
I was waiting for the moment where he's like, actually I'm evil and it
just never happens, and I was like, I really respect that they showed
that in this world people can turn. And the same with Mysterious as well
to a degree, like yeah, it's really really yeah, it's funny.
You're not the first person mentioned that. I don't know if that was I
wish I could say complete plan. I'll say the writers planned it and they
did a great job executing it. But I mean that's reality, right,
I mean people can change. I mean we know, I know, I
know people friends, I have close fer friends. But I'm like, in
the beginning, I'm like, I don't like you. I don't like you.
And then I hope some people, you know, feel that the way
about me, that like, hey, like you know, you're not the
person I thought you were in a good way. So I do think that's
important to show. Like again, it's more of that show the world.
You know, Yes, it's a world that has superheroes and super villains,
but it doesn't mean like it's not reality. There's not a reality to it's
not a believability to it. So I think that's really important that we continue
to explore across it. It's not just that it's you know, showing Miles
connect to his community community Harlem. It's you know, you know, showing
showing him interacting with students in his Brooke colynvisions and helping them out. It's
it's Peter sitting on a bench with a you know, an older gentleman listening
to stories about his wife. It's showing all those it doesn't like to say
I've been talking a little bit about, Like Pete Miles. Job isn't just
to deal with sand Man. It doesn't deal with every it's it's it's to
help out with everything. That's what true hero is. You don't have to
You also don't need to be a superpowered person to be a hero and help
MJ and Haley show that. Yeah, definitely. One of my favorite missions
is actually an example of how you know, they can solve problems in a
way that you don't expect, and it's it's just random side mission. It's
a monster one where it's like that a blind lady who's like something is digging
up my my back. It's such a nice one. By the end of
its, yeah, you realize that it's it's one of those robot wolves and
you like reprogram it to be a nice dog and and she's like, I'm
allergic to dogs, and he's like, here's a metal dogs would take it.
He's like like packs into it, and it's like I've uploaded thousands of
guy dog videos and it's such a clever. Yeah, that's and that's like
I can tigure right now. We didn't have a like we said, hey,
we want some we want some we calm friendly neighbor with Spider Man Quest,
and the team just goes and creates stuff like like, for example,
the the Howard mission, the one where you're helping Howard, that was created
by one of our designers, Brian Matheson, who did it during a game
jam, like like actually, he we had a we had like you know,
we we have like this kind of somethings. We have like this week
or two between Thanksgiving and the holiday break and someone are like, you know
what, let's not schedule anything. Li'sten to people have fun and create stuff.
And he designed this thing, and we're like, oh, that's going
to you know. Yeah. So yeah, I think that's that's a good
example of just insomniac being insomniac, you know. And I think that's one
of the reasons why, you know, you It's like if I said,
oh, it's going to be this and this and this, we would never
get those kind of moments, we'd never get those kind of creative missions.
So yeah, it's just I'm it was It's funny when we sent out the
you know, the review code. I wrote a little letter you Who knows
if anybody read it, but I was like, I was like, I
still want to go. Just please play side content, and I think I
think I added like a comment like this is some of my favorite stuff,
because I was like, I really want people just to understand like we put
a lot of time effort to improve the storytelling and the creativity they went into
that stuff because we knew like that was something we definitely want to level up
this time. And I'm glad from talking to a lot of people, it's
definitely resonating with people. So it's going to hear the team did a great
job. A couple of loose ends to tie up. First one returning to
the idea of the expectation and kind of like the scale of it. So
you've now got you know, you moved into two Spider Men, which was
a big task, and by the end of this game, my like not
the thing I'm like, oh my god, I do not envy them is
the amount of things that are now on the table. Because obviously there is
the Doc Hawk stuff where he's like I'm writing the final chapter. There's Norman
Osborne there's the stuff with you know, yeah, silk will come to that
later, but like the if you collect all the spider barts is like if
Miguel comes around, do this. But then there's also clears, cassidy and
cornage, like you're making sweat. Yeah, what does that kind of mean
for for like the next entry. Obviously you can't talk in length and we're
assuming yeah, yeah, exactly. There's a lot of that stuff. And
at some point, I guess the question is is this something that you expect
to come to a head in a meaningful way or is this like, right
now, we just want to make something that's memorable and interesting, so we
will do this this Connage story not necessarily with payoff in mind. Or is
it a case of no, we're building to something like this is going to
be a big thing that it all comes together, and can I answer yes
and no at the same time. It's kind of like, listen, we
have a lot of pieces to play with if we want to write, and
I think that's exciting. It can be daunting. But you know I said
this, I said this to somebody and by the way, Internet, please
don't quote me. If I'm I Chris warn to remember like I'm an MCU
junkie, like I read everything like I'm reading new book about them, and
like I'm just obsessed. I'm obsessed with obsessed with that. How like like
to me like movies like if any war an endgame should never worked, and
I'm like, how did they even make it work? I just don't want
to believe it? Right? And I remember hearing something like Marvel they don't
like they're not like, oh, we're gonna hold this back because like,
oh it might be too something later, Like we're gonna put everything in to
make the best game possible, the best movie possible. Now, we'll deal
with it later. I'll deal with it later. It's about doing the best
thing now. Am I gonna here and say like I don't think about the
future if we have those possibilities, well, sure, and I think we
I don't think we've painted ourselves into a corner. Will be challenging for some
sure, guess what game development is challenging in other ways? So but I
would rather have that challenge. I'd rather have that challenge. And you tell
me, I don't like Spider Man two. I don't want to see any
more of these characters, these characters stink we're done. So I'll take I'll
take that. I'll take that over the other. But listen, I'm forty
six year olds old and I get to play with Marvel characters like I got,
I got a pretty good life. I'll we'll figure it out somewhere or
another, if we have, if we if we can ability to Yeah,
And I guess the funny thing returned to what Lucy mentioned earlier, was silk
was that always in the plan? How much I loved that that storyline about
the old day, Yeah, old credits and I was like, oh wait,
we never got to see the day. I forgot that. If forgot
that the Rios had a date planned and then when about the day, I
was like, so I wish I could tell you, like, yeah,
nine years ago I knew and Albert mooning be at that's that door I didn't.
I think we talked about expectations, and I think we talk about you
know, I think some of the hardest things I I do it we do
is like because there's Marble fans are so passionate, they're like they're they're like
they're expecting this, they they want this or they has to do this,
and you're like, oh my god, they're they're guessing everything, like how
do you surprise them in There's a little bit of that, right and I
but I do think that we we have an opportunity, if possible, to
explore a character that hasn't been fully explored yet. And I'm excited about that.
Nice, very excited to see. Yeah, and I'm sure people are
asking, well, did you think of another character it could have been there?
The answer is yes, but we want to do something maybe unexpected.
Ben Riley, I can ask me. I'm a lot His outface is cool,
and I think, like every time it's weird because his outfit is in
the game, but it feels wrong to put Peter in that outfit. So
I never there right now, if I didn't have that suit in the game,
that would be would be very prob. But yeah, I think like
the for me, like I think the thing big takeaway for me is like
before the game came out, I think I guessed most of the pieces to
be like, oh, venom anti venom? This is who is anti venom?
I figured there needs to be like obviously because of Miles and this,
I thought like, cool, that's likely. I didn't Yeah, but like
every guest that I made, the way you guys got there wasn't exactly how
it wasn't how I predicted. It was completely different route. So I was
like, Okay, you took the things that I know and you turned them
upside down. So even me, as someone who's been reading and experienced Spider
Man since a kid, didn't see it coming good. So I think that's
a kind of fantastic. I you know when I I mean, you all
know Greg Miller exactly without his shirt both and I know, I remember when
we're doing the first thing, He's like, well, I kind of like
I was like, there's no surprises, and I was like, I was
like, oh, so you thought we weren kill on Ma And he's like,
well, no, I mean not that one. And I think,
you know something we talk a lot about, you know, just in terms
of like pr hyjen and how much you show before even the game comes out,
Like you know, like I didn't want I didn't want to show anything,
Like I didn't want to show a thing like I got. I was
having meetings like I don't want to show anything for that very reason, like
I don't want you to go into the game thinking but the fact that also
I have to be an adult and know we have to actually market the game,
and uh and uh, but the fact that, yeah, I I
there are Like I said, there are certain things we have we I feel
like we need to do as being Marvel fans. But if we can do
it in a way that still surprises you, is that's the best of both
worlds. Well, I think you definitely did that. Thank you. Thank
you for joining us on this and a great question. I forget we're even
recording, so yeah, we want to talk. Yeah, but I appreciate
it, thank you, And uh, I'm just happy to It's just fun
to at this point, like you know, it's been a long time just
being able to talk. And I mean even say the Harry is Venom like
I mean forever, honestly. I the one thing that I did get wrong
is I thought Craven was going to get this India because I only did that
because of the physical stature of them, Like I was like, you know,
big Venom. We talked just I think briefly, though, I will
tell you we at one point had of venomize Sandman. Oh wow, It's
just a concept. It was just a concept. He was gonna be venomized.
And then I realized, oh, sand Man's could be hard on stone,
but there's a concept image. I'm probably gonna be in trouble forre me
staying, but it looked really in concept for him. It was really cool,
like this is really great whatever, Like there's this great top down shot
Miles charging up up like his evolved venom and he's looking down and you see
this giant Sandman who's like a venom face. Oh, that's amazing. People
are gonna I'm probably can get so much trouble. At least the game is
good, right hey, but yeah, we talked about venomizing more people and
stuff like that. For sure. The bit where the stone is shown,
my first thought was, oh, are they going to do the King in
Black? And then that was like that seems way too crazy, Like you
cannot have no luck? Knock. Did you expect the wings? I did
not expect the wings. That was very cool. Yeah, I'm a big
fan of Donny Kates and Ryan Stegman who brings them coming for all the time,
and that was that was my that. Yeah, it was very cool,
especially when like he's quickly trying to get back to the the Collider and
it just like pops out and he's gone. You're like, oh, this
is deadly. Now we can fly. They fly now, Brian, thank
you so much for your time. Congrats on. Thank you for the many
years of effort paying off, and we are super excited to see the next
phase of Spider Man and also the other guy that you're working on it to
be very good. We're very excited to see it. Thank you on again.