WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:05.960 The o Chile effect is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners like 2 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:14.679 you, yeah, yeah, yeah, aggravated in our media tech'll October twenty 3 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:18.079 four, twenty twenty three. Allegedly, according to that thing we call a 4 00:00:18.160 --> 00:00:22.000 calendar, this is the o'celly effect. So you found us, you hear 5 00:00:22.039 --> 00:00:25.679 it, and there it is. Most of you are catching the podcast further 6 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:28.640 on down the stream. But we are live here on a Tuesday. So 7 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:34.359 what am I doing tonight? Happy to be speaking with one of the authors 8 00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:40.000 who is who has actually formed part of my foundational principles regarding the desire to 9 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:45.039 continue to chase after the JFK case. Why is that? Well, there 10 00:00:45.079 --> 00:00:49.200 was this book called JFK and Vietnam, and yeah, that was one of 11 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:54.719 those books that I believe was used for JFK the movie. But that movie 12 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:57.719 had nothing to do with me as far as me getting into the case. 13 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:00.759 I was into it beforehand and looking forward to it and it was happening. 14 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.480 But anyway, what was in that book that was so interesting is an excellent 15 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:10.879 case regarding what in the hell was going on regarding Vietnam. And this is 16 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:15.280 one of the principles by which I think it still matters, will continue to 17 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:19.400 matter, etc. Etc. That ultimate question regarding the Kennedy assassination. Well, 18 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.840 as we approach sixty years here since the events in Dallas, Okay, 19 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:29.799 one of the people that will be speaking in more than one place, apparently 20 00:01:29.799 --> 00:01:34.159 he'll be at the WET conference and also appearing virtually at the Lancer conference. 21 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:38.640 But look, no matter where it is or how you get him, you 22 00:01:38.760 --> 00:01:45.359 got to get him because four volumes after that, after Oswald and the CIA, 23 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:51.359 after JFK and Vietnam. All right, what were those titles? Some 24 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:53.560 people already know who I'm talking about, but some of you don't. So 25 00:01:53.640 --> 00:02:00.519 let's get to it. If you went to JFK, JM N, you 26 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:04.799 know exactly who I was talking about. You'd look in the bookstore, okay, 27 00:02:04.840 --> 00:02:07.199 and you'd see volume four, which we're going to discuss tonight, which 28 00:02:07.240 --> 00:02:13.199 is uncovering Popov's Mole. But if you go through the other volumes on the 29 00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:17.080 Kennedy case that are there, number three is Into the Storm, Number two 30 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:23.840 is count Down to Darkness. Number one is Where Angels Tread Lightly. I 31 00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:25.639 don't remember if there was a subtitle to that or not. You know, 32 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:30.159 I gotta be honest, that this I'm doing for memory and also what's behind 33 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:35.400 me on my bookshelf. However, I haven't completely gotten through Popov's mole. 34 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:39.360 I do know a little bit about this, and somebody was not well read 35 00:02:39.400 --> 00:02:45.199 into either Cold War history in the twentieth century, or maybe who was not 36 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:49.520 well read into the JFK case, might say to themselves, well, Popov, 37 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:53.560 I remember, that's a cheap sort of vodka. Yeah, certainly was. 38 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:55.199 I think it was one of the first ones I ever had. But 39 00:02:55.680 --> 00:03:00.960 no, we're going to find out who Popov is in the story. We're 40 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:05.560 also going to again have to revisit something that I've said quite a bit this 41 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:10.319 year, you know, regarding this revisitation, if you will, this reevaluation 42 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:15.360 of the character of Lee Harvey Oswald, who may indeed not be the guilty 43 00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:21.000 party when it comes to the JFK assassination, but it's certainly a player in 44 00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:25.039 the events in Dallas one way or another. Now I've given you a completely 45 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:30.280 confusing introduction, and the man to sort it out is with me, John 46 00:03:30.479 --> 00:03:35.520 M. Newman. That's why that JFK. Jm N. That's Mary Nancy 47 00:03:35.599 --> 00:03:40.080 by the way, jm N. In case I'm not clear JFKJMN dot com. 48 00:03:40.080 --> 00:03:43.479 That's where you can go. You can go to the bookstore link there 49 00:03:43.560 --> 00:03:46.280 and get the books directly. They're also available on Amazon, et cetera. 50 00:03:47.159 --> 00:03:51.319 But enough out of me, doctor Newman. First of all, how you 51 00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:57.240 doing tonight? Well, I'm about as busy as I ever have been in 52 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:01.719 my life, working on about three books. I got a change Madison counter 53 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:08.599 terrorism course, international terrorism course and things like that, and I like to 54 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:13.159 go hiking, you know, around four thirty five o'clock every morning, so 55 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:17.240 I'm pretty much just in my cave most of the time. Felt good? 56 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:23.160 How do you feel? Rather not say I got a toothache at the moment 57 00:04:23.240 --> 00:04:27.639 and really wish I was discussing your Quest for the Kingdom book. We could 58 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:32.360 talk about the mysticism collected the Jesus. I'd rather discuss that tonight, but 59 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:38.920 unfortunately we still have to tackle this assassination. I mean, six decades later 60 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:44.040 and still not a satisfactory answer in my mind from anybody, And it is 61 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:46.399 one of my focuses. I really would I'd love to sit and discuss mysticism 62 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.399 with you one night. You're a curious character, I mean a history in 63 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:56.199 national intelligence. You've been described as a military story, and you've been described 64 00:04:56.240 --> 00:05:00.439 as well, you are a professor, doctor, etc. But I mean 65 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:03.519 there's all kinds of things that people have used to describe you. However, 66 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:09.639 you're again one of those prolific authors who has gone really really deep into the 67 00:05:09.680 --> 00:05:14.720 case, and a rare one at that. So that's what we're doing tonight. 68 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:17.920 So let's get to it. Aside from my stupid joke about pop Off, 69 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:24.800 right, yeah, chee vodka? Now, who is Popov? In 70 00:05:24.839 --> 00:05:28.959 case there's somebody who has no clue and only can identify it that way, 71 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:33.160 who are we talking about and how does this relate to this character we have 72 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:36.319 known, although I think we need to get to know a hell of a 73 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:43.319 lot better named Lee Harvey Oswald in the historical way, so to speak. 74 00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:50.439 Well, pop Off was a gr U major, an officer in the GRU. 75 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:58.639 We'll leave out the Russian words for that, but it's military intelligence for 76 00:05:58.839 --> 00:06:01.959 the USSR. So it's kind of part of the KGB, but it's a 77 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:11.839 separate arm that focuses strictly on military intelligence. Pop Off defected to our side. 78 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:17.160 The other thing about the GRU is it placed a lot of its operations 79 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:24.720 directly onto places where east meets west, especially where spies could walk across boundaries 80 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:29.319 easily, and that would be Berlin and Vienna, and those were his stomping 81 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:34.279 grounds way back into the nineteen fifty one fifty two period. And he came 82 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:42.000 over as a defector in place in nineteen fifty two into fifty two, and 83 00:06:42.800 --> 00:06:46.879 unfortunately for him, he drunk a lot of vodka and that's not a joke. 84 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.519 He did and had a mistress on the side, which he shouldn't have 85 00:06:49.519 --> 00:06:56.480 done. And he went to insane risks, insane risks to give his CIA 86 00:06:56.519 --> 00:07:00.759 case officer George Keesbaulter all kinds of good stuff, bury good stuff on nuclear 87 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.720 weapons and what they're doing with that, and just a long list of things. 88 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:14.439 He always had a handful every time they met and krumget Go. Really 89 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:19.879 the Kremlin they knew about him, They knew that he was a defector, 90 00:07:20.240 --> 00:07:27.560 and they were just waiting for him to make enough mistakes where they could actually 91 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:35.600 arrest him and execute him without the sources of that information being known. How 92 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:41.439 they found out about pop Off. So that's a short nut in a nutshell. 93 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:48.600 The overall view of pop Off and perfectly willing to discuss it in more 94 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:55.160 detail, if that's what you're interested in. You mentioned how Oswald fits into 95 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:59.720 this, not in the way most people think of Oswald, which is the 96 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:05.800 last last year of his life, was sent to the Soviet Union in nineteen 97 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:13.040 fifty nine as part of a mohunt, and the mole hunt was for the 98 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:20.199 mold that pop Off warned us about. He warned his CIA case officer George 99 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:26.519 Keith Wolter in nineteenth fifty eight in April, and he was on his way 100 00:08:26.560 --> 00:08:31.799 out. He knew he wasn't going to survive. Keith Volter told him, 101 00:08:33.240 --> 00:08:35.440 you can come to the United States. Well, they could, you know, 102 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:37.960 be able to get you there. But Popov said, and all his 103 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:43.720 wife and kids were in the USSR, so he was going to take his 104 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:46.960 lakes and he knew he was going to get killed. So at the last 105 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:50.399 minute of the very last meeting in April nineteen fifty eight, he said, 106 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:56.080 oh, by the way, there's a high echelon KGB Moull inside of the 107 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:00.799 CIA that had the technical details of the U two. A for a long 108 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:05.519 time that seemed to be well, maybe that's when people were figuring out about 109 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:09.879 the U two. It's not the U two was known about a lot earlier 110 00:09:09.879 --> 00:09:18.200 than that, because Eisenhower was letting them fly over Soviet territory back in nineteen 111 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:26.039 fifty six in the Suez Crisis. And so that led to a series of 112 00:09:26.120 --> 00:09:31.399 events, and it's each one of which could take a long time to explain 113 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.919 the details. So I'm going to fly about twenty thousand feet above you know, 114 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.080 high salon. I mean seeing the high altitude for low resolution until it's 115 00:09:41.080 --> 00:09:46.000 time to come down and to a set of tree somewhere and here and there. 116 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:54.559 But basically, that war was a time when you would risk your high 117 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:58.360 Achelon mole. You would never use a high a salon mole that you had 118 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:05.799 in the other person spy services unless it really was it really was necessary because 119 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.759 you might lose him. And this person, as it turns out it was, 120 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:16.799 his name was Bruce Sally. Nobody ever figured him out for seventy years. 121 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:22.480 I figured him out because I was looking into him, but because I 122 00:10:22.519 --> 00:10:31.639 eventually realized that believe it or non, ancestry dot Com released all the records 123 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:39.559 for airplane flights and ships around the world, going way back into the you 124 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:45.759 know where. It was mostly ships, and then later on more airplanes as 125 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:50.200 well. But it was parabytes and terabytes of information. It wasn't just a 126 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.240 little bit here or there. It was the whole package, the whole planet. 127 00:10:56.120 --> 00:11:01.080 But you had to buy the international version of ants trained to get it. 128 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:07.960 Anyway, that was the thing that solved the problem, locked Bruce, 129 00:11:09.000 --> 00:11:16.519 all these boots on the ground at the crucial places in the huge spy wars 130 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:24.639 that ensued after the Sere during and then after the Suez Crisis. UH. 131 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:30.559 And so I guess I'll just keep talking a little bit about how that unfolded, 132 00:11:30.639 --> 00:11:39.200 because there's another set of most people don't think about. So without talking 133 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:46.879 about Popov's mole, let's talk about the British mole, Kim Philby, who 134 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:52.120 had been a working for Moscow Center all the way back in the in the 135 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:58.240 forties and thirties. He was recruited in Cambridge when he was in a British 136 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:07.120 university and and so he ended up crossing paths with Angleton. And in the 137 00:12:07.480 --> 00:12:11.759 World War Two, the OSS in a lot of places and I got to 138 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:20.480 know each other x or. Next two were the operations UH in support of 139 00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:28.600 the Office of Strategic Services. This was the American of these were American forces 140 00:12:28.639 --> 00:12:39.159 that were parachuting into Europe and helping UH protect patents flank to his south so 141 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:43.639 we could get across his dash across Europe. But anyway, and then you 142 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:50.159 had British Special Operations Executive. They were dropping people in in in France as 143 00:12:50.200 --> 00:12:58.799 well. Anyway, the point is that because Philby had access to all of 144 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:05.279 these of what was going on, and he was in mi I six that's 145 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:13.279 there, that's the British Intelligence Service like r CIA, he was telling everything 146 00:13:15.080 --> 00:13:22.720 that he knew through all the British intelligence including Enigma, the you know this 147 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:33.080 machine that the wormuck excuse me, the the the uh Actually that's the military 148 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:41.120 intelligence arm of the Nazis had made that machine. Anyway, everything he had 149 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:45.440 he gave the Moscow Center from a very early day. And so every time 150 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:52.120 people we dropped people into the Soviet Union or Eastern Europe Albe, Czechoslovakia, 151 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:58.879 things like that, they were killed instantly because Philbe would tell the Russians about 152 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:01.200 it, and so that's so they died, all of them. There was 153 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:07.720 no way when we got to this war in the Middle East, and there 154 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:11.279 were three that was the Israelis and the British and the French invaded, and 155 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:20.759 Eisenhower refused to go in anyway. So that was a big, a big 156 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:26.519 problem during the war because we couldn't get any intelligence. Eisenhower didn't want to 157 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:33.320 participate, but he did not know what Khrushchov might be planning to do as 158 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:35.799 well, were they going to show up. One of the things that caused 159 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:43.799 the whole crisis was because there was an upsurge of popularity for Soviet Communism in 160 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:50.080 the Middle East, especially the Muslims and areas like that, and so it 161 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:56.600 was an intent period and in the only way they could get any information to 162 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:00.720 figure out what to do and what not to do. What's going to happen 163 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:07.679 was actually use this brand new thing called the U two. It finished its 164 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:13.039 flights, its checkout flights in the United States early in nineteen fifty six, 165 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:22.720 and by the time we get into May and June, Eisenhower allowed the U 166 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:31.679 twos to fly over only Poland in East Germany for a while, but ultimately 167 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:35.879 he needed to know whether there were lots of troop movements going south southwest in 168 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:43.759 order to go to the Suez, and so he eventually in July nineteen fifty 169 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:50.600 six allowed the U twos to go across Soviet territory, but he made them 170 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.799 come to his office. Eisenhower actually participated in every single one of those YouTube 171 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.320 flights over Soviet territory, and we would say, no, you can't go 172 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.919 here, let's send it, sent it over there. And that's what this 173 00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:07.480 was a hands on thing. And one of the reasons another reason why popoff 174 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:11.679 they have waited for a while before, you know, finding ways to get 175 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:17.120 him that wouldn't give up the sources and things like that, because there was 176 00:16:17.480 --> 00:16:22.159 a huge battle going on in the Kremlin between this to succeed Stalin, who 177 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:30.200 had died back in fifty one for the four year struggle, and Khrushchoff eventually 178 00:16:30.360 --> 00:16:34.240 emerged as the victor, but only slightly, against Malikoff and Malankoff and Malotov. 179 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:40.480 And he emerged, as I said, victorious, but only at the 180 00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:44.320 same time in the spring of nineteen fifty six. So he was brand new 181 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:48.720 there and these guys were just waiting in the wings to replace him if he 182 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:52.600 messed up. And now in the middle of this thing, we were all 183 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.799 these two tube planes flying at sixty seventy eighty thousand feet. He couldn't shoot 184 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:03.359 him down and he knew through another hole that people don't know about yet. 185 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:08.559 And I'm going to be writing the sequel to VOKA four already in January. 186 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:18.720 It'll be coming out. And his name is James McCord. Yeah, McCord 187 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:22.359 and Bruce Oli were flyers over Germany vomiteers, and that's when they were, 188 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:29.079 you know, with the Russian flyers and so on. So see, now 189 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.799 McCord is a familiar name. I had no clue that he went that far 190 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.279 back, because when you're talking about nineteen fifty six, that is, you 191 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:42.279 know what, literally we're only talking nine years since the official inception of the 192 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:48.319 CIA, right, so you know, you have the transitionary time from the 193 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.720 OSS and some of the other agencies that existed then culminating with the creation of 194 00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:57.640 the CIA officially in forty seven. I think. So this is an interesting 195 00:17:57.720 --> 00:18:02.640 transitional time period. And then they have their own you know, excuse the 196 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:06.160 terminology here, but they have their own toys. Now, okay, a 197 00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:08.960 few years later, they have the spy plane, which is fairly new. 198 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:14.279 They had other types of surveillance that they had developed post World War Two. 199 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.559 I've gone over that kind of stuff where they picked up some of the German 200 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:22.519 intelligence people and all that before on the show. So you know, just 201 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.799 saying it's an interesting time here where you're talking about the struggle in the USSR, 202 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:32.880 but the CIA is not too far from being a newly minted agency as 203 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:36.920 well. Right, So does that play a role in this story laying the 204 00:18:36.920 --> 00:18:41.759 groundwork or not? Well, they're new they may be newly minted, but 205 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:48.039 they're having just as much problem as the Surreta in Paris and n I six 206 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:52.559 in London. And they didn't know it, right, had no idea that 207 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:59.240 they had these moles and where. But the here's why they these moles were 208 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:03.279 in the security office. The security office is like the one place you can't 209 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:07.960 if you can investigators. They're the ones who investigate everybody else. Right, 210 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:11.319 But Bruce Sally was the mole hunter for the CIA, and he was the 211 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:17.640 mole Well that's the right guy. Oh you just hear on that. You 212 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:21.079 should probably just count to ten first for a second. I'll let that just 213 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:26.839 go right through your brain and you see how much everything just changes instantly about 214 00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:33.119 what we thought we knew. We thought Angleton was the mole hunter. I 215 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:37.799 did, we all did, right? No, he doesn't that that is 216 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:45.960 not his responsibility. It's not the responsibility to counter intelligence staff that is in 217 00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:52.839 the Office of Security specifically, there are six staffs. The Security Research staff 218 00:19:53.440 --> 00:20:00.200 is the one that's crucial. And within the Security Research staff and McCord the 219 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:07.559 deputy chief of that research staff is the research branch, and that branch was 220 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:12.920 run by Brusseli. Now, what did that branch have authority over all that 221 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:22.960 all the people who were defecting, all false effectors, all moles, and 222 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:29.079 every personnel and all the personnel records of every single person who worked in the 223 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:36.119 CIA at that one desk. Now, you were asking early in the in 224 00:20:36.160 --> 00:20:41.759 the warm up here for this interview, which because it easily if we don't 225 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.079 watch out, will be at the end of an hour real fast. So 226 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:52.559 but so you asked about, you know, how this Oswald fits into this? 227 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:57.880 And the Oswald that you're talking about doesn't fit anywhere into this because that's 228 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:03.400 nineteen sixty three, a little bit in sixty two, but basically it's the 229 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.480 early sixty three and he puts that blackrod around his neck Viva fidel in January 230 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:12.799 and then and he's he's doing the uh, the cashro thing. Yeah, 231 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:19.039 but this guy Oswald has a completely different place in history than a lot of 232 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:25.799 people don't know about because they they they call themselves researchers, but they don't 233 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.880 do research. They read each other's books. And I'm sorry to say that 234 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:32.759 it's like a thing going around and around in a circle, and it ever 235 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:37.359 goes very far because it takes years and years to go through those six million 236 00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.799 pages of records, and you will find the needles in the haystack laying wide 237 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:47.079 open, not predacted at all, and have been all this time. That's 238 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.359 how where I get my information from. It just takes a lot of time. 239 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:56.960 Now, so Oswald, how does he fit in? Well, we 240 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:03.759 go through this period and what they have to do. Uh, Khrushoff is 241 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:11.039 decided he's going to intervene. He's not gonna He knows that they're that's high 242 00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:14.319 Salon mold that there has been a sleeper do they haven't been using him? 243 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:19.559 Uh has the technical details of the you too, which is now flying buzzing 244 00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:23.559 all over the top of his head. What do you think he's gonna do? 245 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.839 He's a big boss. He tells two or three of the top KGB 246 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:37.119 guys, one of which his name is Ladislav Krshak, who was uh head, 247 00:22:37.160 --> 00:22:41.440 the chief working against our embassy was embassy in Moscow. That you are 248 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:45.759 going to go to Washington. Read my lips. You will go over there. 249 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.880 You will find this guy Sally, and you will find these you will 250 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.240 get those tech details and you will bring them back to me so I can 251 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:59.319 shoot that plane down. Okay, yeah, you see, if you actually 252 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:03.960 have a few pieces like this, it all fish together. That's what happened, 253 00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:10.119 and it's one hell of a story. That trip that they made was 254 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:19.440 one of the most ballsy, uh just insanely risky overseas trips the CAGB ever 255 00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:26.359 did. So these three guys, there's three of them, led by cars 256 00:23:26.359 --> 00:23:33.319 stocks are have to go to Washington, d C. And secretly meet with 257 00:23:33.440 --> 00:23:37.720 a guy who's it's like one of the most important guys in the security office 258 00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:42.400 of the Central Intelligence Agency and they got to meet him somewhere. They're going 259 00:23:42.480 --> 00:23:47.200 to have to have safe places to meet. Why think they're going all the 260 00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:48.839 way over there? Well, because both the KG and B and C I 261 00:23:48.920 --> 00:23:55.000 break each other's crypt you know crypts, and you can't do dead drups because 262 00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.160 that's paper and you can't send uh, you know, can't send it in 263 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:02.160 a mail, and you can't talk on a le phone when you're talking about 264 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:08.079 high excelon moles that are so vulnerable if once they make a move, uh, 265 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:12.960 it'll show their hand, right. And so the only place way you 266 00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:18.160 could try and do it safely is you got to you gotta travel, which 267 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:22.319 is why, which is why ancestry dot com ended up being such a big 268 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:25.880 deal. And we'll talk about that later, but yeah, you have to 269 00:24:25.920 --> 00:24:29.960 travel. Onebody's somebody's got to go to Moscow or somebody from Moschuss got to 270 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:33.400 go to Washington. That's the only way. So anyway there they go. 271 00:24:34.359 --> 00:24:40.880 But they have to prepare first because if they themselves, and they it was 272 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.400 very elaborate, but they did. They got passports, false passports separately from 273 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:52.519 each other. They and and then they flew on different planes and then eventually 274 00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:59.119 they would meet up in Washington, d C. They didn't even they didn't 275 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:03.039 even start work on this themselves because they were going to go over there unless 276 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:07.960 they knew that the safe houses were all everything had been to figure out and 277 00:25:07.440 --> 00:25:14.920 this you know, the uh, the skins were greased. So it took 278 00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:19.759 about three months for them to find out how they were going to do this, 279 00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:26.240 and the cost shop took care of it for many times. For many 280 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:34.240 years, the State Department refused to allow any CIA people in the embassy good 281 00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:38.680 reasons because oh my gosh, you know, you get a pretty lady and 282 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:44.799 next thing you know, the guys is being being recruited. But that's what 283 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:49.279 happened. So they the CIA decided that they would had just one guy behind 284 00:25:49.319 --> 00:25:55.279 the back of the Ambassador Bowen. And his name was that Edward Ellis Smith. 285 00:25:55.759 --> 00:25:57.839 We're married, but his wife is still back in the United States, 286 00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:06.519 and he was the one man, one man's CIA station there and this is 287 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:11.680 in the spring of nineteen fifty six, and so they see this coming, 288 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.640 they know what's going to happen, and so what they do is they they 289 00:26:15.680 --> 00:26:21.720 give him a very beautiful maid. Some say she was a KGB major. 290 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:23.880 It doesn't make a different bit of arns who she was. Because they busted 291 00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:30.920 in. They were in the sexual act with cameras and everything, and the 292 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:37.160 guy went Edward Ella Smith just froze instantly. He thought it this is over 293 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:40.240 for me. He didn't know what they were going to do to him away. 294 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:45.480 They have to make a long story short here, because he was told 295 00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:48.960 he was going to get a great job in California, lots of money for 296 00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.279 the rest of his life if he just did this one thing for them. 297 00:26:52.039 --> 00:26:56.680 He had to fool the ambassador, make him think that he hadn't gone over 298 00:26:56.759 --> 00:27:03.839 to the KGB side and agree to go over with this group to be there 299 00:27:03.880 --> 00:27:08.599 when they were there. He would be there first to prepare the safe houses 300 00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:14.039 for these Russians that were going to go meet with Sully. So it took 301 00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:17.440 him three months to do that. Now he had to be escorted because he 302 00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:21.119 couldn't take any chances that this guy, you're going to do this and if 303 00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:25.359 he if he rats you out, I mean it's just everything falls a piece 304 00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:27.680 to pieces. Krushofkis met fires everybody, and you know, you know, 305 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:32.759 et cetera, et cetera, aheads roll, and so he had to be 306 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:37.559 escorted personally back over there. And then the same thing was going to happen 307 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.440 when they they were going to do like a fake trial, and so he 308 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:44.839 thrown out of the cion all that, and so you know, I got 309 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:52.640 the travel record, so James McCord, and there was sixteen July nineteen fifty 310 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:59.279 six orders approved by the Security Office for travel through we that's Western Europe ee 311 00:27:59.400 --> 00:28:04.519 etern Europe and denied Solviat territories. Mission was to take and where Ella Smith 312 00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:10.160 back to Washington, d C. For punishment. So he esported them all 313 00:28:10.160 --> 00:28:12.720 the way back. When he got there, uh, and they were, 314 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.279 you know, they were, they were. He was scared. He didn't 315 00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:19.000 know what what to make of it. But because they were going through this 316 00:28:21.079 --> 00:28:26.359 and McCord was in charge of this inquisition, and then he would tell him 317 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:27.880 secretly on the side, don't worry about this. I'm going to give you 318 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:32.519 money every every every month from this they had a seat. He had a 319 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:37.519 c i A you know, one of those little little money places that are 320 00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:42.160 fake that where you could get budgeable money from. And so he he made 321 00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:47.119 sure that he was going to have all this money that to play with, 322 00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:52.079 not the big money and the big job, but just while he was scouting 323 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:57.400 out movie theaters all over Washington and so they did a ton of them. 324 00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:02.920 And so they got to play a big shell game because they didn't the FBI 325 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.880 wasn't interested in Ellis Smith because he was as hard as they knew he was 326 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:11.680 thrown out of the CIA. Was just a bum walking around the streets and 327 00:29:11.079 --> 00:29:14.839 without a job, looking, you know, for a way to make some 328 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:18.319 money, right, And that's why this it worked so beautifully because they didn't 329 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.119 watch him, but they knew that there were three Russians in town, and 330 00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:23.480 they didn't know where they were or how they were meeting, or who they 331 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:27.319 were meeting, and so every time they tried to find they couldn't because it 332 00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:32.279 was a big shell game. They were so adept at this thing that they'd 333 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:36.000 worked out, and that was due to the genius of a cough shop. 334 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:44.480 But anyway, so it worked, and that they all got there in December 335 00:29:44.720 --> 00:29:49.119 of fifty six and by January they were meeting in Washington. They were so 336 00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.200 they were so adept at doing this that the FBI gave them a moniker called 337 00:29:56.240 --> 00:30:02.839 them the three Musketeers. They couldn't never find them anyway. So that's that 338 00:30:03.039 --> 00:30:07.480 part of it. And then there's another part of it, which is Sally 339 00:30:07.880 --> 00:30:14.839 is now going to get on airplanes and go himself to deliver the second half 340 00:30:14.839 --> 00:30:17.920 of the package. So they get they get to take details on the U 341 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.359 two, but now Sally is going because he is powerful He could walk into 342 00:30:22.599 --> 00:30:27.640 a CIA station and nobody they don't know who he is, and doesn't except 343 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:33.279 for the chiefest station, and nobody says. Whatever questions he asked, they 344 00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:37.039 don't say, why, why do you need that to know that? They 345 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:41.279 don't that's the biggest security office. Nobody says a word. Bill Harvey was 346 00:30:41.279 --> 00:30:44.599 there in Berlin, and he knew what was going on, and he didn't 347 00:30:44.599 --> 00:30:48.559 say a damn word to anybody about it except answer the questions. But they 348 00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:52.640 were here. They were looking for what Sauy was looking for. He was 349 00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:57.839 based in Zurich, right next to Bulin and Vienna like a nine about sixty 350 00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:04.720 minutes or left by air for three weeks in fifty seven. And the thing 351 00:31:04.759 --> 00:31:10.279 that I didn't realize when I was first looking at that was that he stopped 352 00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:12.000 somewhere else first on his way over there, and a place was called be 353 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:19.400 Route, and that's where he met Kim Philby, and Kim Philby was by 354 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:26.960 this time drunk and going to have to go to Moscow. I skipped a 355 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:33.079 couple of things about guy Purchase and McLain and all these other other guys, 356 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:37.519 just for time to get to the point you were getting to Oswald. So 357 00:31:40.559 --> 00:31:44.359 well, we're first getting to where Oswald is going to defect not too long 358 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:48.200 from now, because you're in fifty seven now, and yeah, we're getting 359 00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:53.559 close. We're getting close. Remember what I told you in the beginning of 360 00:31:53.559 --> 00:32:00.160 this is that in nineteen fifty eight April Keys Vaulter learns from up Off that 361 00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:04.799 there is a kg V Moore highest long Age V Moulla Shy with the tech 362 00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:09.799 details of the U two. Right. Okay, now that's old news in 363 00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:15.960 and of itself, but it's the first time. Now, what do you 364 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:19.759 think, so Keith Falter is is case officer? What do you think Keith 365 00:32:19.799 --> 00:32:22.799 Falter does? He goes and tells that so Off your rusted division. And 366 00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:27.839 what does he do? He tells Tangleton and Angleton guess what what is Hangleton 367 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:34.279 to Angleton tells Sully just like he told everything to Philby of Philby is replaced 368 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.519 by Solly. And they knew that in fifty one that they were going to 369 00:32:37.559 --> 00:32:44.519 need a replacement for for Philby because he just he was falling apart. Wait 370 00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:47.319 a minute, and here here's where, here's where Oswald comes in. This 371 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:55.519 is the place because when that news travels instantly to Sully. Sully now knows 372 00:32:55.559 --> 00:33:00.319 that the Americans know that he's there, that he's they don't you know his 373 00:33:00.440 --> 00:33:02.519 name, they don't know who he is, but they know about him. 374 00:33:02.599 --> 00:33:06.400 They know exists. Yeah, and he knows that there has to be a 375 00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:12.119 moll hunt and he's he's happy about that because he's the moll hunter. Right 376 00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:19.240 now, what does he do well, because this whole thing, the context 377 00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:21.720 of this was the Cold War and all this stuff going on, and it 378 00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:27.359 was the U two's he needs to take a YouTube fly trap and co plupp 379 00:33:27.400 --> 00:33:31.519 it in Moscow while they're doing all this other stuff in Washington at the same 380 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:37.759 time. And he does that. So what he does is it's it's now, 381 00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:42.559 it's it's it's late. We're going through fifty eight and it's and we 382 00:33:42.680 --> 00:33:45.799 go into fifty nine. He's got that much time to look for somebody who 383 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:50.720 can who can be you two flypaper. Most of the people in the YouTube 384 00:33:50.759 --> 00:33:53.920 program have degrees their engineers and stuff like that. But it just so happens 385 00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:58.119 that there was one one guy at one of the three places, you know, 386 00:33:58.240 --> 00:34:01.359 Great Britain Insula, Turkey and at two Get Japan were the three YouTube 387 00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:07.679 airfields there was a guy over there in marine with the Greek pencil in his 388 00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:10.480 hand, you know, tracking the YouTube stuff over there. That was wee 389 00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:17.920 Harvey Hauswalls and he loved he loved the guy was was He was weird in 390 00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:21.840 a lot of ways, but he loved his favorite TV show as I Led 391 00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.360 Three Lives, and he you know, so they set him up, told 392 00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:28.880 him what to do. He goes over there, walks in. He knows 393 00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:31.400 that if he says he's going to renounce his citizenship that they will never do 394 00:34:31.480 --> 00:34:34.840 that. On the first visit, they make you go home and you know, 395 00:34:35.159 --> 00:34:37.320 you know, crew off and come back. But he knew he only 396 00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:40.599 had to go there once, and so he knew that when he said I 397 00:34:40.599 --> 00:34:45.159 want to renounce my citizenship, that wasn't going to happen. He knew that. 398 00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:49.320 But what he did do that was the big deal. While he's in 399 00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:52.000 the consular office there, he looks at the walls, which he knows are 400 00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:53.199 a bug, and says, I would like to give my I'm going to 401 00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:59.960 give my radiar secrets to the to the Soviet Union, and that it was 402 00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:07.320 his act of espionage. Now what that does is the following all these now 403 00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:13.039 because all, you have three people who are interested in him, and one's 404 00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:15.000 the Marine Corps in the Navy, and the other is going to be the 405 00:35:15.039 --> 00:35:20.000 State Department Security Office. Now that one's going to be the FPI, and 406 00:35:20.320 --> 00:35:24.239 it's it got into the newspapers a little bit too. But anyway, they 407 00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:30.639 were all sending tons of messages to the CIA, these three FBI, Navy 408 00:35:30.960 --> 00:35:37.199 and State Department about the oswall thing, right, And so it was, 409 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:39.280 you know, and I've got I've got a whole list ofm I call it 410 00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:45.800 the old for Cruk's there has to have been fifty messages in the first week. 411 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.159 You know. It was Halloween day when he walked into that office, 412 00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:52.360 and I was just coming up just a few days for us too, right, 413 00:35:52.599 --> 00:35:58.119 it was thirty thirty October nineteen fifty nine. He's in there and he 414 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:05.320 makes that statement, and so here comes all this material now. But the 415 00:36:05.360 --> 00:36:12.199 thing is, it doesn't go anywhere except for one person's desk. It goes 416 00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:17.519 nowhere to where it's supposed to go. The ordinary distribution of anything like that 417 00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:21.519 has anything to do with the Russia would go all over the Soviet Russia Division, 418 00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:24.880 about eleven copies there and many other places. And so on. But 419 00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:30.800 she Sully knew this was going to happen because he's the guy putting the mole 420 00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:36.079 hunt together. So what he does before Oswald shows up, he has to 421 00:36:36.079 --> 00:36:43.159 do this before he shows up with this crazy story, is to tell the 422 00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:47.559 Office of Male Logistics. And I wrote this piece of it back in Oswald 423 00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:51.599 the CIA, right, and Malcolm Blunt and I worked on it for years 424 00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:55.039 afterwards. Anyway, he goes in and he gets a hold of the Office 425 00:36:55.039 --> 00:37:02.719 of me Logistics and the Record's Integration Division and tells them all all messages from 426 00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:10.920 other government agencies to the CIA will not go anywhere except Bruce all is best. 427 00:37:13.039 --> 00:37:15.840 So by the time Oswald goes up there, that was already laid out. 428 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:17.119 It had to be otherwise it wouldn't have work, the whole scheme of 429 00:37:17.239 --> 00:37:22.920 the work. So he's the one who put Oswald over there, okay. 430 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:28.440 And he used Oswald as a as a means as being a you know, 431 00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:34.679 yeah, well we could we could use words, you know, like flies 432 00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.840 attracted to ship, but we'll just say, you know, fly paper, 433 00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:45.760 which is what he was. And so this is how it got started with 434 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:52.480 Oswald. And Oswald was recruited by the Ukrainian KGP. I found it laying 435 00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:58.559 wide open in the files, and to this day people still don't know that. 436 00:37:59.559 --> 00:38:02.840 They have no idea about it. It's in my book. It's chapter 437 00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:09.400 I think it's chapter three, uh and so. And one of the reasons 438 00:38:09.440 --> 00:38:15.199 why there wasn't a lot of know it's about it or interested because it was 439 00:38:15.400 --> 00:38:19.119 after the Sense Select Committee, in the Health Selectrimittee. Okay, it was. 440 00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:22.039 It was not until nineteen eighty one that a guy named Papushin defected to 441 00:38:22.119 --> 00:38:30.239 the CIA and he was working with the the people at the KGB Higher School 442 00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:38.199 of Counterintelligence in Minsk where Oswald was okay, and he was being routinely debriefed 443 00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:42.639 by those guys and I and I have all that stuff in the book and 444 00:38:42.679 --> 00:38:45.159 it sent an appendix and so on. So if you want to read, 445 00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.000 uh, you know what Oswald was doing there, you need to read that 446 00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:55.800 chapter in the book. But that's that's where Oswald gets his first and his 447 00:38:55.920 --> 00:39:00.519 mind is really lucky break this was great news for him. Well, let 448 00:39:00.519 --> 00:39:05.679 me ask you this really quickly. Does this relate to anybody else like Webster? 449 00:39:05.840 --> 00:39:08.280 I mean, obviously they wouldn't have just deployed to Oswald. They deployed 450 00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:13.920 them. Okay, so this is there. There are about four or five 451 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:16.239 other people who will go at the same time and come back at the same 452 00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:21.400 time. Right, It's called flooding the zone. Right. The Oswald doesn't 453 00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.039 even look like he's important. Well, look at flooding the zone. Perfect, 454 00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:27.960 fine, NFL. You don't send one receiver to the area. You 455 00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:30.119 send three, and that way you've got a choice of who you can throw 456 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:35.119 to and they don't know who to cover. Okay. The one who's going 457 00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:37.719 to catch the ball is like you know, just moves it around anything, 458 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:39.039 no way, you know, they get on the road of him. And 459 00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:44.119 that's so that's what they were doing, was we were decoys, right, 460 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:47.559 Okay, So that Bill tier and I have worked for years on this and 461 00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:52.519 he has all that information and so do I. So it's you know, 462 00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:54.679 I'm glad you asked the question, but that's the answer is pretty simple. 463 00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:58.559 Okay, No, fair enough. I wanted to just make sure that I'm 464 00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:00.880 understanding this, because, like I said, I wouldn't have deployed one guy 465 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:04.639 to do this. I would have sent a bunch if I was planning it. 466 00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:07.639 And they go and that's what they did. All right, and that's 467 00:40:07.679 --> 00:40:09.880 how we make sense out of that. Now. The only other weird question 468 00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:17.480 here is what level of knowledge does Oswald have though realistically, because is he 469 00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:22.920 actually an asset or is he actually a decoy? Because honestly, as a 470 00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:27.159 radar guy, right, he knows about how high they fly, he knows 471 00:40:27.199 --> 00:40:31.320 about how they behave, Okay, but does he know the technical things that 472 00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:37.840 you know are supposedly doesn't matter? And he does tell them everything, okay, 473 00:40:37.880 --> 00:40:42.960 and more, everything about his life, even the funny stuff you know, 474 00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:49.320 with the bars and stuff in in Japan. All right, so he 475 00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:52.199 tells. But that's not the point of him going there, Okay. The 476 00:40:52.239 --> 00:41:00.760 point is to draw all these American intelligence services to put what they know on 477 00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:05.599 the record so Bruce Ellie can watch it and get away with this thing. 478 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:13.199 Sound. When you have a guy that's that high, it changes everything and 479 00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.119 it takes a lot of getting used to. I'm gonna tell you every time, 480 00:41:16.199 --> 00:41:20.599 I mean, who ever since said the book came in and I didn't 481 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:24.360 have time really to follow the leaves, like the McCord stuff and all the 482 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:29.719 everything he did for the k g B is great, and there's more stuff. 483 00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:32.400 It turns out I guess I might as well say it on your show. 484 00:41:34.079 --> 00:41:37.559 Uh in In in the update of this book gets who else he is? 485 00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:45.559 And I scored for he escorts Oswald? He he has scores Oswald over 486 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:49.639 there. He's the one who helps him get the quickie thing, the quickie 487 00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:53.280 visa. He shows up when when when Oswald gets off the boat in the 488 00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:59.679 arm goes on Southampton, and so it's McCord is there. He's not talking 489 00:41:59.679 --> 00:42:01.079 to him, I guarantee you that. But he's got he's got a bunch 490 00:42:01.119 --> 00:42:05.079 of people along the way. And that's another thing. We've got all the 491 00:42:05.480 --> 00:42:09.320 records on it. We've got his boots on the ground. So so there 492 00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:13.639 you go. You've got two. You've got two things. Now you've got 493 00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:17.119 you've got McCourt has to has to take care of Everybdella Smith to get him 494 00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:21.239 back there for the you know, for the three musket terers, so they 495 00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:24.599 can take care of what Khrushoff wants them to do. And then the next 496 00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:28.039 thing that has to happen is we've got to send Oswall over there, and 497 00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:31.679 they got to do it fast, well, the fastest way, and there 498 00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:36.840 are in he'll think he is fairly fast way but it doesn't have to be, 499 00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:39.519 you know, it depends on if it's businesses that are going to give 500 00:42:39.559 --> 00:42:43.880 good stuff to the Soviet Union, then somebody in Muscle says, yeah, 501 00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:46.440 let him in fast. Well, if the Soviet Union says let him in, 502 00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:52.639 it's over, it's it's instant. And because it's Bruce Sulley who work 503 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:57.480 is working for my Skelle, of course they get him in fast, right. 504 00:42:59.159 --> 00:43:04.559 So this exans the blank that everybody was drawing for years regarding how in 505 00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:08.280 the world did this kid figure out how to get there because he doesn't go 506 00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:15.800 the standard route and nobody ever went the route. And I guess who's on 507 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:21.880 that same route, but Gordon. There you go. The court has two 508 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:28.840 jobs. One job of his was to be the deputy chief of this Security 509 00:43:28.880 --> 00:43:32.639 Research Staff, which technically is just a buzz sully, but half the time 510 00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:37.719 he's supposed to be TDY in Eastern Europe, he's over there all the time. 511 00:43:37.760 --> 00:43:40.920 In Berlin, he's got a cover. He's a military he's a military 512 00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:45.760 major. As a cover. In Berlin, they didn't go over there, 513 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:50.960 and that's where the spies meet, and so he can meet with with his 514 00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:58.079 spies easily there anyway, there's there's so much more to say about this. 515 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:04.159 Okay, so much more, but we I think that rather than get swamp 516 00:44:04.199 --> 00:44:09.119 your audience with too much information, I think that's that's enough to lay out. 517 00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:13.639 You know, if either you're interested or you're not interested in this stuff, 518 00:44:13.679 --> 00:44:16.840 and if you do not understand why, because a lot of people have 519 00:44:17.079 --> 00:44:20.920 there, it's like they're they got their criminal mustard with the wrench in the 520 00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:25.000 library and that's it. I understand that. But we need to put this 521 00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:29.800 in. But we need to put this in context because by the time Francis 522 00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:34.039 Gary Powers goes down, right, you're talking about later, yes, May 523 00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:37.800 of sixty, I think, right. So if you have him going down 524 00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:43.440 in May of sixty, Oswald is there, He's immense by the uh, 525 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:46.559 these other defectors are elsewhere. But meanwhile, this is what everybody's looking at, 526 00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:51.559 is the you know, they are just something. They're arguing about that 527 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:57.480 and it's over. It's that's our seventy one they're get they're putting stuff up 528 00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:00.440 outer space and stuff. This is the this is like, uh, you 529 00:45:00.440 --> 00:45:07.079 know, a non thing because uh, they know now what was going on. 530 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:12.679 They were looking for some specific things and the way to shoot it down 531 00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:16.360 is like it's like the old way that they brought were brought planes down in 532 00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:21.800 World War Two was slack, right, They didn't allamis well it could get 533 00:45:21.840 --> 00:45:25.199 through it back in nineteen, you know, forty forty three. But if 534 00:45:25.199 --> 00:45:29.159 you've ever seen a movie, you know what, they show all these black 535 00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:31.519 things going poof, poof, poof everywhere, and they they hurt the planes 536 00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:36.559 and sometimes they got to bring them down. And that's how Sully and met 537 00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:39.880 up with is the Russian buddies all the time on those on those uh what 538 00:45:39.960 --> 00:45:45.000 do you call them? A little little air plate places where if your airplane 539 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:50.239 gets gets top up pretty bad, you've got to land and get another one. 540 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:57.719 So yeah, that's eventually they they were able to hit it because they 541 00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:02.239 flew the same track again, right, so once you've got the track, 542 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:06.039 then they know where to put a lot of flack up there. But they 543 00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:08.679 didn't. They didn't get any kind of direct hit to blow it up. 544 00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:13.639 The guy would flack so he was able to come down. You know, 545 00:46:15.559 --> 00:46:17.519 it wasn't a big deal. See everybody is still talking about that. I 546 00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:22.960 was looking at the whope before and it went on for like one hundred things, 547 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:27.320 and like one day, everybody's talking about it. And ernestied Avich was 548 00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:30.599 a nice guy, you know, he knew. But I think Ernest's got 549 00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:31.840 the same problem a lot of people do. He's got to be careful what 550 00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:36.239 he says, because that's the same thing that happened to Philby. Even after 551 00:46:36.280 --> 00:46:38.280 he got over there, they didn't He wrote a book and did stuff, 552 00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:42.920 and they they didn't want to publish it, and then they did, and 553 00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:47.000 then they take a lot of stuff out of it. Anyway, I very 554 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:51.719 rarely say anything all that for him, But when I saw Ernest was there 555 00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:54.079 and everybody was talking about it, I put a little two cents and I 556 00:46:54.119 --> 00:47:00.800 said, they're Ernest and everybody else was interested. By the way, uh, 557 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:05.199 the they were talking about the you two was shot down because they found 558 00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:08.760 out from Oswald about it. And I said, by the way, the 559 00:47:10.159 --> 00:47:17.239 Soviet Union learned in one person, in particular Cosset of the YouTube details technical 560 00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:22.719 details in nineteen fifty seven, and it's been lying in the open, unrebacked 561 00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:27.320 all these years. And that was it. That was the only thing I 562 00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:31.840 said, well, and nobody said a word well in fairness. Days later, 563 00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:36.760 ern Peterovid said thank you, thank you, John Newman, and that 564 00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.239 was it. Yeah, because well, look, Ernst, all right, 565 00:47:39.559 --> 00:47:45.840 let's be fair to doctor titbit's okay because at that time he's a student. 566 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:50.840 Okay, he's uh, he's meeting Oswald and so on and so forth. 567 00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:54.480 And to this day I would contend that he still must be careful with what 568 00:47:54.519 --> 00:48:00.280 he says exactly hens you know. So remember this is the guy who's in 569 00:48:00.280 --> 00:48:04.480 Belarus. Okay, I mean, you know, that's what I didn't hold 570 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.360 it. That's why I think it's very clear. Uh. And so he's 571 00:48:07.360 --> 00:48:10.639 decided what's safe and what is safe, and then she should do that, 572 00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:15.000 right, Yeah, And so he's allowed to tell a story, the part 573 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:17.719 of the story that he thinks it's safe for him, and you know, 574 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:24.079 and and do well. But he's the only person who answered me because he 575 00:48:24.159 --> 00:48:28.679 knew what I'm saying is true. But other people were scared of me because 576 00:48:28.679 --> 00:48:32.639 they don't find this stuff right, and they shouldn't be scared, you know. 577 00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:36.639 And I was one of the first people say, look, I screwed 578 00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:39.280 up on his Angleton mol Hunt thing. You know, when you when you 579 00:48:39.320 --> 00:48:45.840 find a mistake, this is like you know, the regular investigation, you 580 00:48:45.880 --> 00:48:51.280 know, and in a murder case or whatever, or I don't care whether 581 00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:57.280 it's it's you know, astrophysics or chemistry. It takes time after time after 582 00:48:57.360 --> 00:49:00.679 time to you start looking at stuff and they and you make a lot of 583 00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:02.880 assumptions and mistakes that aren't right, and then you start washing them out, 584 00:49:02.920 --> 00:49:06.960 and eventually, when you correct for those mistakes, you end up in the 585 00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:10.360 right place, which which always right. Which, by the way, Look, 586 00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:15.840 my contention for a very long time has been and everybody is so married 587 00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:21.000 to their own you know, previous conclusions, Okay, that they don't ever 588 00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:24.599 do what you're saying right now, they don't, all right. They I 589 00:49:25.239 --> 00:49:29.400 make the joke that it's like going home with the ugly woman from the bar 590 00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:32.000 because you were drinking that night and you wake up you realize who you woke 591 00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:36.840 up next to, but you don't admit it. You still tell your friends. 592 00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:39.679 Yeah, that's pretty that's pretty good. I have something a little lighter 593 00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:45.679 than I call it a daily plaza water cooler. Okay, but but either 594 00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:49.920 way, the the the idea stands right, it's they're married to that, 595 00:49:50.039 --> 00:49:52.559 and that's it. That's why a reevaluation needs to be done. I've encouraged 596 00:49:52.599 --> 00:49:54.760 more than one person to go back and say, look, you know, 597 00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:58.679 please, by all means, go back and look at this again, because 598 00:49:58.719 --> 00:50:02.800 I guarantee that we you can see more now, Uh what I did you 599 00:50:02.880 --> 00:50:10.840 see? Because the last thing I did was the update on volume Uh no, 600 00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:15.880 actually it wasn't not on any of the volumes. It was an update 601 00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:20.079 on on the case. And I put a little new chapter at the end, 602 00:50:20.119 --> 00:50:22.920 and it was all about angles, and some of that was right and 603 00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:24.840 some of it was silly. But anyway, I decided that was it. 604 00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:28.760 I'm getting out of the JAF thing altogether. And so I took a six 605 00:50:28.840 --> 00:50:35.360 year vacation doing the the Yo Good mysticism. That was my vacation, right, 606 00:50:36.039 --> 00:50:37.679 and I had learned a lot of stuff. I did three languages, 607 00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:42.840 you know, all kinds of coptic and and you know things. But it 608 00:50:42.920 --> 00:50:47.760 was a lot of fun and learned a lot about it. Back into the 609 00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:52.840 case by my wife and and and another person who was a friend of mine, 610 00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:55.400 and I warned them, I said, look, don't ask me to 611 00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:59.039 go back to it. You didn't like it because I didn't spend time with 612 00:50:59.079 --> 00:51:01.079 my kids and you guys, are you sure you want me to do this? 613 00:51:01.159 --> 00:51:04.599 And they said, yeah, we want you to do it. I 614 00:51:04.599 --> 00:51:07.639 said, okay, but that's not going to be one book until it's over. 615 00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:12.239 I don't care whether it's one book or fifty books, you know. 616 00:51:12.360 --> 00:51:16.679 And so I just took the walked into the restaurant and I grabbed the tablecloth 617 00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:20.800 and I ripped it with all the dishes and everything on the floor, and 618 00:51:20.800 --> 00:51:24.199 started all over again in twenty ten. Well, it's a smart thing to 619 00:51:24.239 --> 00:51:29.239 do, considering all of what's been released. There's a lot more there now 620 00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:31.679 that didn't used to be. This is the thing again. I've heard this 621 00:51:31.719 --> 00:51:35.480 speech from a couple of people, and I shake my head of like, 622 00:51:35.559 --> 00:51:37.880 well, I already learned all I needed to learn. And I try and 623 00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:44.559 find out where that timeline is. They stop RRB time and I go, 624 00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:46.960 oh, what are you doing? There is so much more that has come 625 00:51:47.079 --> 00:51:54.360 up here, actually, but actually it isn't significant. Really, I've been 626 00:51:54.400 --> 00:52:00.800 watching it all and looking at it half the time. The reaction that weren't 627 00:52:00.119 --> 00:52:06.280 there in the six million pages. And the other thing is, if you 628 00:52:06.400 --> 00:52:09.559 haven't read those six million pages, how the hell can you understand what's putting 629 00:52:09.559 --> 00:52:15.239 being put out now. So the thing used to go do your homework where 630 00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:19.599 you need to start, start from the start and do your job, all 631 00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:22.880 up your fleas, get your stubby pencil out and get the work. And 632 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:28.159 people just want it to be easy, and it's not easy. This is 633 00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:32.000 an espionage and counter espionage. It's all lies, which is why you have 634 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:37.159 to have not one, but two, maybe three independent sources that give you 635 00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:40.679 the same answer, or you don't go with it. Well, and here's 636 00:52:40.679 --> 00:52:45.119 that's the standard. Most people don't do, but it is a standard in 637 00:52:45.159 --> 00:52:49.159 the law. Absolutely. Look, you got to have corroboration and you can't 638 00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:51.559 just go with the one you know. That's the other thing is oh I've 639 00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:54.440 got this one story this way. Yeah, that's no good. Look. 640 00:52:54.280 --> 00:53:00.039 The other interesting part of this is it does not necessarily mean that Oswald is 641 00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:06.559 well read into all this stuff. Either. He could be useful and not 642 00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.480 necessarily know all of what he's being used for. I mean that's the case 643 00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:14.400 in a lot of these cases. Yes or no, Yeah it is, 644 00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:17.599 so you know that that's the other. So when they write these you know 645 00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:22.960 long things about who he was and what he knew, And I find it 646 00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:29.079 interesting because they haven't even looked at any of this other material that shows him 647 00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:31.880 being used. They didn't look at you know, even the the oddity of 648 00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:37.920 the uh, what is it? The uh it's it becomes isolator. But 649 00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:42.880 it was imports and immigration and all that. Having looked into him and all 650 00:53:42.920 --> 00:53:45.480 that, they don't even know that part of it. You know. So 651 00:53:46.119 --> 00:53:50.199 when when you don't know that, you don't know all of what was you 652 00:53:50.199 --> 00:53:52.760 know, turned over, what surveillance was on him, You don't know exactly, 653 00:53:53.159 --> 00:53:57.719 So that means you know nothing. Still again with that blank spot, 654 00:53:58.000 --> 00:54:00.480 when when I'm talking about here where it's like, well, gee, for 655 00:54:00.519 --> 00:54:02.400 some reason he gets from here to here, and nobody can quite figure out 656 00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:06.840 how it is he learned how to get into the Soviet Union. That quickly 657 00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:09.960 you take a look at the you know, the alleged what the suicide attempt 658 00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:14.599 and all this other stuff. If you now put this in proper context, 659 00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:20.079 it looks to me like somebody told him. Look if all he was told 660 00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:22.079 is that you got to get in there and you got to stay there. 661 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:25.000 This is how it works. If you don't, you're gonna get turned down 662 00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:30.960 the first time. But you can't be turned down that now begins to make 663 00:54:30.039 --> 00:54:35.840 more sense. Okay, the fact that he's aloof most of the time begins 664 00:54:35.880 --> 00:54:39.320 to make more sense because his knowledge was only up to a certain point and 665 00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:45.079 it wasn't actually there for the purpose everybody thinks it was there for if it's 666 00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:47.920 there, and he's really just a decoy, and I do mean a sophisticated 667 00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:52.039 decoy, not just you know, a duck shaped thing, but one the 668 00:54:52.159 --> 00:54:59.760 quacks and does a few other things. Okay, Well, it ran time 669 00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:02.079 and and that's when they they actually got a message to him when it was 670 00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:06.679 time to come home. And that's a whole other thing I've written about two 671 00:55:06.800 --> 00:55:09.760 or three or four times, and it's it's been buried. The the actually 672 00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:15.239 the the House, the Select Committee went along with a little lie that they 673 00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:21.199 knew because they were told it's sources and methods, and we had clandestine sources 674 00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:24.559 in there, we who they could get message to Oswald. And it was 675 00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:28.719 time for him to come home, and he did. It took a long 676 00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:32.039 time, but it was it was played out. That whole thing was played 677 00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:37.079 out. Uh, and it was time for him to come home and and 678 00:55:37.159 --> 00:55:40.559 he did. Now and then and then and then here's the thing right, 679 00:55:40.920 --> 00:55:45.960 so you but you fast forward to Mexico City and here's the guy who said 680 00:55:45.960 --> 00:55:49.440 he missed the bowling alleys and everything. He just had to come home because 681 00:55:49.480 --> 00:55:52.320 it wasn't so good. And then he goes back to the Mexicoscuse. He 682 00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:54.639 says, I'm going to detect to the Soviet Union again, and I need 683 00:55:54.639 --> 00:56:00.119 to go through uh Culba by the way and all the way. He even 684 00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:02.400 though his passport said it was illegal to go there, but yeah, I 685 00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:06.280 said it was going to do. So. You could not have a more 686 00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:12.679 threatening profile than the two time comedy guy going back again right at this particular 687 00:56:12.719 --> 00:56:15.280 point in time, that whole thing with what he was supposed to do, 688 00:56:16.199 --> 00:56:21.000 and it failed. The Mexicos anything did not work right, and so they 689 00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.000 had to they had to improvise by going on the phone. And that's where 690 00:56:24.039 --> 00:56:29.599 the impostor was. Osmond was there, but there was also an impostor because 691 00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:34.280 the impostor did not know what was going on inside of the consulate and had 692 00:56:34.320 --> 00:56:37.800 to make some some stuff up. You know, we we were through the 693 00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:40.239 whole hour and I had I had a bunch of stuff I was going to 694 00:56:40.280 --> 00:56:44.760 do. The whole arm and eddit thing for you, which is my latest 695 00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:50.599 thing I'm going to do with the cane on my current feel for the assassination 696 00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:53.400 itself. But that's going to have to wait till the cane. Oh look, 697 00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:57.800 that's that's fine, unless you know you have time to return again before 698 00:56:57.880 --> 00:57:00.360 then. I'll be more than happy, because I mean, I'm I would 699 00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:02.519 love to go through it again. I have one last contextual question, though, 700 00:57:02.519 --> 00:57:07.079 which is really weird, uh, because I remember seeing you do a 701 00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:09.400 presentation on this a long time ago and I went looking at it and I 702 00:57:09.440 --> 00:57:15.239 went, I was astounded that this happened. But you know, Jajegar Hoover 703 00:57:15.400 --> 00:57:20.079 has an alert up on his name Oswald's name up to a certain point and 704 00:57:20.119 --> 00:57:24.079 then drops it. And this is when, yeah, I do know, 705 00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:30.599 when the like everything else that like that. Yeah. Well, but that's 706 00:57:30.639 --> 00:57:35.400 the bizarre thing to me because look, Hoover already doesn't seem to according to 707 00:57:35.440 --> 00:57:37.199 his own notes and things like this, he doesn't trust what the CIA is 708 00:57:37.199 --> 00:57:42.119 telling him about anything, including Mexico City. Okay, from what I can 709 00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:45.880 tell all right now, obviously I haven't seen all of Hoover's records. Nobody 710 00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:49.559 has, but uh, you know what I mean, the thing is that 711 00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:55.320 it's so bizarre to me that the FBI seems to collaborate here. I mean, 712 00:57:55.440 --> 00:58:00.840 they're they're literally dropping the alert. They're turning around. It's not whoever. 713 00:58:00.960 --> 00:58:06.960 He was so pissed off after the assassination. He really smelled he wasn't 714 00:58:07.000 --> 00:58:09.440 in one and he he didn't like that. But he could see it happening 715 00:58:09.440 --> 00:58:15.039 because he had all that stuff that he knew that was going on in New 716 00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:19.920 Orleans, right, and he would send these little hit memorandum into this to 717 00:58:19.960 --> 00:58:22.920 the CIA, right to the director. But look, there were not And 718 00:58:22.920 --> 00:58:28.199 that's one thing he hit on right, which was that the flashing red lights 719 00:58:28.239 --> 00:58:30.000 were turned off in the FBI, but they were turned off in the CIA 720 00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:34.639 by suppression of all the stuff that Oswald had done since he'd come back. 721 00:58:35.440 --> 00:58:42.840 And then there are there are six six whole groups of things that happened during 722 00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:45.760 those six weeks, six different things, you know, like Taylor gutting the 723 00:58:45.760 --> 00:58:51.360 withdrawal plan and and uh and and replacing it without playing thirty four a full 724 00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:54.719 this intervention of Vietnam secretly behind Mcnamerica's back and Kennedy's back, so they did 725 00:58:54.800 --> 00:58:58.800 not know and then he's killed, and of course that's what they want to 726 00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:04.159 do anyway. So there's it's not just one thing. There is a confluence 727 00:59:04.360 --> 00:59:08.880 of things, things suppressed and things that were done going way back to sixty 728 00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:12.840 one. By the way, in terms of the shy OP, they wanted 729 00:59:13.079 --> 00:59:16.480 to do you know what that stands for, right, the single Integrated Operational 730 00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:21.760 Plan for nuclear warfare, and the Joint Chiefs were all about doing that. 731 00:59:21.800 --> 00:59:24.800 They wanted to blow the Pogis out of the They didn't realize it would be 732 00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:30.639 the planet, but they're thinking just about Russia and China and a few other 733 00:59:30.719 --> 00:59:36.159 communist countries playing you know, three hydrogs and bombs on every single target, 734 00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:39.000 just to make sure that they could you know, what happened. They had 735 00:59:39.039 --> 00:59:43.079 no idea. Well you can hear this nothing, Yeah, you can hear 736 00:59:43.119 --> 00:59:45.880 this now on some of the tapes from the Kennedy Library where they're having the 737 00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:51.679 discussions about the possibility of winning in a first strike scenario and all that. 738 00:59:51.800 --> 00:59:55.000 So you can observe in that time period exactly what's happening as far as what's 739 00:59:55.039 --> 00:59:59.800 on their minds. That's what they were trying to push for, right, 740 01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:05.400 So from the very first, even during the Bay of Pigs, it wasn't 741 01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:07.760 just the Bay of Pigs, it was also Laos. They wanted to go 742 01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:10.519 into the war in three places. It didn't enough troops to do that. 743 01:00:10.840 --> 01:00:15.920 So why would they do that? And then it include Berlin. Why would 744 01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:20.320 they say they could fight in Vietnam, Berlin, and Cuba all at the 745 01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:23.199 same time. And there's a real simple answer. They intend to use ground 746 01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:30.400 forces, use nuclear weapons. That's it. That's the that's the bizarre thing. 747 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:34.639 Because I pointed this out many times. I always say this that look, 748 01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:37.239 it wasn't just about being you know because people of Vietnam. Yes, 749 01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:40.559 that is important, but it's Vietnam. It's the Cold War, but it's 750 01:00:40.559 --> 01:00:45.880 the Cold War war, right, And those three pressure points that you just 751 01:00:45.000 --> 01:00:47.360 mentioned, those are the things I bring up is, look, we we 752 01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:52.519 came nearly to blows because of actions of certain people right there on the ground 753 01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:58.039 in Germany. Forget about you know what was going on in Cuba. In 754 01:00:58.079 --> 01:01:01.880 Germany, Laos they were pushing for they were pushing for this conflict between East 755 01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:05.719 and West Germany. Okay, you end up with the wall there, but 756 01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:09.920 there was this possibility of a real world military conflict right there, right, 757 01:01:10.239 --> 01:01:15.360 How can you solve this, you know, in three different locations simultaneously. 758 01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:20.280 Oh, you just gave the answer, yea, you know, So that's 759 01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:23.320 it. And there was the discussions about what to do with Vietnam as well. 760 01:01:23.360 --> 01:01:25.840 But I mean, that was the plan for the future. That was 761 01:01:25.840 --> 01:01:29.840 the thing that became drawn out longer and so on and so forth, and 762 01:01:29.880 --> 01:01:32.840 to me is one of the major criminal operations of the twentieth century. But 763 01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:44.280 he begged LBJ, please, please, please, mister President, allow us 764 01:01:44.320 --> 01:01:49.599 to use tactical nuclear weapons. And LBJ one of the few things he did 765 01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:53.920 that was good was said no, fuck all right, one of the few 766 01:01:54.079 --> 01:02:00.159 times that he didn't just do basically as directed. But that was even a 767 01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:05.039 step too far for him. And again that's saying something for LBJ. Uh. 768 01:02:05.079 --> 01:02:08.079 But but anyway, for you guys listening, here's the thing. I'm 769 01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:13.480 out of time with doctor Newman, but you're not. You can go over 770 01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:20.199 to JFK J M n Okay m as in Mary n as in Newman. 771 01:02:20.760 --> 01:02:27.559 There you go JM n Okay so JFK JM n dot com and there's the 772 01:02:27.559 --> 01:02:30.280 bookstore over there. You'll see the four volumes you'll also see that other volume 773 01:02:30.519 --> 01:02:36.280 that was written on his vacation from the JFK case as well, in addition 774 01:02:36.360 --> 01:02:39.960 to Oswald and the Cia, and of course JFK and Vietnam, which again 775 01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:45.800 is uh, practically one of my uh, one of my standard volumes. 776 01:02:45.840 --> 01:02:49.840 Almost biblical text to me when it comes to this, Okay, remember that 777 01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:53.199 you need to get the second edition, yes that, because the second edition 778 01:02:53.280 --> 01:02:57.159 has all the cool stuff in it that happened to me. Well, the 779 01:02:57.199 --> 01:03:01.039 second edition has that. But but also I would say the updated Oswald and 780 01:03:01.039 --> 01:03:04.679 the CIA is not a bad idea either if you have the old one, 781 01:03:05.679 --> 01:03:08.159 just saying, just saying, because it was much improved in the re release, 782 01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:15.079 okay, and there are many improvements in it. But anyways, definitely 783 01:03:15.119 --> 01:03:19.519 an excellent volume. And then this we were talking about mainly the fourth volume 784 01:03:19.559 --> 01:03:23.280 tonight, which is uncovering Popov's Mole again, and that is the fourth volume. 785 01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:28.960 The other three as follows into the Storm is volume three, Countdown to 786 01:03:29.039 --> 01:03:34.840 Darkness as volume two and where angels tread lightly now I'm reading it, so 787 01:03:34.880 --> 01:03:37.679 I did get it right the first time, which is volume one, okay, 788 01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:42.800 and all of them are not even the complete works, as they're going 789 01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:46.639 to be, because volume five is coming, you said in January. Well, 790 01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:52.440 no, it's just I usually release a digital version along with the soft 791 01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:58.360 cover, and I decided not to do that on this occasion because I knew 792 01:03:58.400 --> 01:04:01.239 that we hadn't followed up so these lead like on the Court for example, 793 01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:06.360 and uh we I didn't want to hold it to myself for another whole year. 794 01:04:06.400 --> 01:04:11.880 I wanted to announce what we found out and because it changes everything, 795 01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:14.480 and I thought, maybe, you know, it would be cool because some 796 01:04:14.480 --> 01:04:19.159 some cool researchers would would jump on you know there and and but everybody's scared 797 01:04:19.199 --> 01:04:23.960 of this, and so that hasn't happened. Anyway. I'm going to put 798 01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:28.440 out the digital version, but the digital version will be an update. It 799 01:04:28.440 --> 01:04:31.679 will be a revised edition. It'll keep all the same stuff that's there, 800 01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:34.760 but you're going to learn all about, like I said, the cord and 801 01:04:34.920 --> 01:04:40.159 and some other things, and a lot more detail and a lot more detail 802 01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:44.880 because the higher you fly and then you go down into the trees more often, 803 01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:51.119 then you have this synergy of high altitude and then low altitude. And 804 01:04:51.199 --> 01:04:55.480 that's you know it's going to be. It's going to be an improvement. 805 01:04:55.519 --> 01:04:58.360 And then I've got Army Geddon, which is now going to be two volumes 806 01:04:58.360 --> 01:05:01.760 instead of one. It won't be different numbers, it will be you know, 807 01:05:01.960 --> 01:05:04.840 a Part A and Part two, Part one and through whatever. Right, 808 01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:10.679 and then I've got to do the final one on the Kennedy assassination, 809 01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:17.079 and then probably an afterward volume on the on all of the investigations. And 810 01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:21.000 then I have a couple more things I need to do on Martin Luther King. 811 01:05:21.119 --> 01:05:25.920 I've got a Martin Luther King book gonna come out pretty soon next year, 812 01:05:26.159 --> 01:05:29.440 and and so on. So that's why I told you I'm very busy, 813 01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:35.440 right, I just try and and stay healthy and keep my mind fine, 814 01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:43.719 because it's easy, you know, to get old fast and and and 815 01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:49.440 lose your your your edge. Well look you're you're yeah, you're not losing 816 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:53.119 your edge though. I mean, I've been reading your stuff for thirty years 817 01:05:53.119 --> 01:05:57.840 now I think about and no edge lost at all. As a matter of 818 01:05:57.880 --> 01:06:01.119 fact, it's simply gotten sharper as time has gone on. So I wonder 819 01:06:01.119 --> 01:06:04.880 if you're going to have to do a little connective tissue in that afterward volume 820 01:06:04.920 --> 01:06:08.880 related to the fact that, because you know, McCord's a familiar name. 821 01:06:09.960 --> 01:06:15.039 I've even got his book behind me over here, I think about is I've 822 01:06:15.079 --> 01:06:19.639 got to it doesn't say much no matter of fact, some other people wrote 823 01:06:19.639 --> 01:06:26.039 a little more about McCord and his suspicious activity connected to Watergate, which you 824 01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:28.159 know, by the way, I mean, I can give you my whole 825 01:06:28.199 --> 01:06:31.320 view on that and about two sentences if you like. I feel like Nixon 826 01:06:31.400 --> 01:06:35.679 was actually set up by the CIA directly. But anyway, that's the way 827 01:06:35.719 --> 01:06:41.719 I see it. Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but I got to tell 828 01:06:41.719 --> 01:06:44.400 you when I look at what is its secret agenda, I think is the 829 01:06:44.440 --> 01:06:47.519 name of that that one book from some years ago, and a bunch of 830 01:06:47.599 --> 01:06:51.039 yeah, ogan, right, and a lot of material that I've just you 831 01:06:51.039 --> 01:06:56.480 know, stumbled across. Since I gotta tell you, I I my conclusion 832 01:06:56.480 --> 01:07:00.320 gets stronger as I go that that that was intentionally done to President Nixon, 833 01:07:00.679 --> 01:07:03.719 who, by the way, is probably you know, one of the most 834 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:09.679 maligned characters possible. And meanwhile, even though yeah, no, he wasn't 835 01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:12.880 clean, but I don't think he was as dirty as he could have been, 836 01:07:13.239 --> 01:07:15.599 or as dirty as a lot of people think he was. In Moscow, 837 01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:21.159 this is true. This is true. But at the same time, 838 01:07:21.199 --> 01:07:26.159 I think it's his own people that you know, knee capt him. Maybe 839 01:07:26.159 --> 01:07:28.960 it's just me. Maybe it's just me, but it just you know, 840 01:07:29.000 --> 01:07:32.000 that is the guy who broke in. Yes, right, there is a 841 01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:35.960 Democratic National Ecords. There was nothing there, they were gone. Why would 842 01:07:35.960 --> 01:07:39.920 he break in the second time? Yeah, well, why would he break 843 01:07:39.920 --> 01:07:44.840 in the second time to get caught? John? Yes? But he also 844 01:07:45.000 --> 01:07:47.199 said when they asked him, yes, why did you do that? He 845 01:07:47.239 --> 01:07:54.239 said, because I thought I was going to find a mole m. That's 846 01:07:54.280 --> 01:07:57.519 true. And what's weird about that again is that you know, this is 847 01:07:57.559 --> 01:08:00.199 also the guy who probably put the tape back up to you know, this 848 01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:06.519 is not I I found that it just really quickly quick just random commentary about 849 01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:14.119 this. Did you see that recent dramatization where they had Woody Harrison playing e 850 01:08:14.239 --> 01:08:17.640 Howard Hunt. No, I didn't watch that one. What I watched was 851 01:08:17.680 --> 01:08:23.960 a Spy Amongst Friends. It's five episodes of the Philby thing. It was 852 01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:27.520 really cool. I watched that. Okay, No, I just thought, 853 01:08:27.640 --> 01:08:30.399 I thought, I know what you're talking about it, and I just didn't. 854 01:08:31.279 --> 01:08:34.239 I thought, no, I'm tired of water. But look, it 855 01:08:34.279 --> 01:08:38.560 was You know why it was entertaining to me is because I actually, uh, 856 01:08:38.920 --> 01:08:41.600 I actually met one of those guys once a while ago when he was 857 01:08:41.640 --> 01:08:47.600 doing a radio show, uh in DC there, and I found the dramatization 858 01:08:47.760 --> 01:08:53.199 the guy who played him to do it just perfectly, the strangeness of that 859 01:08:53.279 --> 01:08:56.840 individual, not Woody Harrison playing the Howard Hunt, but the other guy in 860 01:08:56.880 --> 01:09:00.479 that in that story. Anyway, we'll leave it at that, John. 861 01:09:01.039 --> 01:09:03.560 It was. It really was. It was almost as if I was meeting 862 01:09:03.600 --> 01:09:08.119 the guy again watching him on the screen. It was perfect, you know, 863 01:09:08.199 --> 01:09:11.039 for the guy who used to have his own radio show there. It 864 01:09:11.079 --> 01:09:15.079 was successful for a little bit in the conservative radio business. I don't know 865 01:09:15.119 --> 01:09:20.520 if you remember that, But anyway, I Howard Hunt interesting figure. Who 866 01:09:20.600 --> 01:09:26.199 knows. Maybe that'll have to figure into one of your volumes upcoming. But 867 01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:30.479 it's you know, again, are we getting closer to understanding what happened? 868 01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:34.720 Maybe we're getting a lot closer to understanding the historical figure that is Lee Harvey 869 01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:41.359 Oswald in some of the pool he was swimming in because apparently there's a few 870 01:09:41.359 --> 01:09:44.560 things to still be learned, and some of this stuff was laying wide open 871 01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:49.079 in the documents as you said, and it's just it's remarkable. That's I 872 01:09:49.079 --> 01:09:51.760 mean, I'm I'm I'm a bit stunned. I got to go back over 873 01:09:51.800 --> 01:09:56.159 this stuff, and I hope you guys have gotten an idea. So one 874 01:09:56.159 --> 01:10:00.439 more time, I'll just tell you Uncovering Popov's Mole, the Assassination to President 875 01:10:00.520 --> 01:10:08.880 Kennedy, Volume four, Uh, Doctor John Newman and again JFK all right, 876 01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:15.560 JM N all right, JMN Mary Nancy or m Newman? Okay, 877 01:10:15.720 --> 01:10:20.680 Mary Newman like that, JMN so JFKJMN dot com. That's the website to 878 01:10:20.680 --> 01:10:25.159 go to the bookstore. Is there also available on Amazon, et cetera, 879 01:10:25.199 --> 01:10:29.880 et cetera. So, and highly recommend all of his work and the stuff 880 01:10:29.920 --> 01:10:32.319 that's going to come out this coming year. I have no idea what you're 881 01:10:32.319 --> 01:10:35.079 going to write about, doctor King, but I can't wait to see it. 882 01:10:35.199 --> 01:10:40.520 And I want to thank you for joining us tonight, my pleasure, 883 01:10:40.560 --> 01:10:45.159 Thanks for inviting me on. Absolutely just stick around, and I'll say goodbye 884 01:10:45.199 --> 01:10:47.560 to you guys by telling you that I'm merely O'Kelly and all of you are 885 01:10:47.560 --> 01:10:51.479 indeed the effect tonight