WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:16.519 Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in this edition is 2 00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:20.800 Richard Hamilton. He is a veteran of the US Army Air Forces in World 3 00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:25.640 War Two, serving on a B seventeen bomber crew. Mister Hamilton's served on 4 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:30.239 nine bombing missions. However, the ninth mission resulted in his plane being shot 5 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:34.399 down. He spent more than a year as a German prisoner of war. 6 00:00:35.079 --> 00:00:38.200 And Richard, thank you so much for being with us. All right, 7 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:42.640 You're welcome. When and where were you born, sir? I was born 8 00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:51.320 in Bradlboro, Overmond, September twenty eighth, nineteen twenty two. I understand 9 00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:55.600 that you became interested in flying as a child. How did that interest begin? 10 00:00:56.600 --> 00:01:00.359 I don't know. I was a farm boy, and I think it 11 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:07.840 was not when I was a young child. It was probably during my high 12 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:15.719 school days. I always listened to into things about the war, and as 13 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:22.439 we went to the movies, and I thought that the Army Air Corps was 14 00:01:23.079 --> 00:01:30.319 the right place to be and and that's where I ended up. What do 15 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:37.959 you remember about hearing of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in December nineteen forty 16 00:01:37.959 --> 00:01:41.760 one. What were you doing and how do you remember hearing that news? 17 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:49.920 Well, that is a very interesting thing. We had a radio. We 18 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:57.439 had no electricity in our home and no running water. We had a pump 19 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:05.239 at the sink. And but anyway, that gives you old background of why 20 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:10.919 we were listening to the radio. It was battery powered and the battery was 21 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:20.319 getting beyond its law should be recharged. And President Roosevelt got on the phone 22 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:30.439 and he told about the Empire of the JAP van has attack Star base at 23 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:39.080 Pearl Harbor. And at this day we'll live in infanty, but we were 24 00:02:39.199 --> 00:02:47.319 all crouched down around that we meaning my three brothers, sisters, my grandfather, 25 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:53.719 and I was in a multi generational home. And so we listened to 26 00:02:53.800 --> 00:03:04.319 the radio that way. And and then when it was over listening to the 27 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:10.840 president, we looked at each other and where was Pearl Harbor? So we 28 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:21.520 got over globe and started looking. And that was the conditions that I heard 29 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:27.599 about the attack on Pearl Harbor. Now, mister Hamilton, you mentioned that 30 00:03:27.680 --> 00:03:30.120 you were in the Army Air Corps. Were you drafted or did you enlist? 31 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:36.960 No? I was drafted, and at that time I realized there was 32 00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:43.000 a young kid that had enlisted in the Air Corps and I was in his 33 00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:52.000 group. And when we left our home and in Brattleboro, Vermont, and 34 00:03:52.800 --> 00:03:55.919 apparently they needed I guess, I don't know. Maybe it was after Fort 35 00:03:57.000 --> 00:04:01.039 Devon's where we entered, and four or five days while we were there, 36 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:06.639 and then we went on troop train to basic training, and that's when I 37 00:04:06.719 --> 00:04:14.400 realized I was in the Air Corps. So were you assigned to the B 38 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:19.360 seventeen or is that something you volunteered for Miami Beach was basic training for about 39 00:04:19.439 --> 00:04:29.959 a month or so, and then to Chicago for radio mechanics and learning the 40 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:39.399 Morse code and all those things. And I can't say when I early on 41 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:45.319 that I was going to be on a B seventeen, but anyway, that's 42 00:04:45.319 --> 00:04:48.519 where I ended up. So you mentioned that you were the radio man and 43 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:54.680 you had all this training to be the radio man. Explain what that role 44 00:04:54.879 --> 00:05:00.959 involves. What does a radio man do. The radio man on they BE 45 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:11.480 seventeen is one who keeps in touch with the home base when the pilot gets 46 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:17.560 lost. It was the radio man that had the signal and could be located 47 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:24.279 by the home base as to where we were, and I pushed down a 48 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:30.399 key and send out a signal. They would monitor that and know just where 49 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:39.839 we were, and that could be relayed to the pilot on the inter calm. 50 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.879 Now, before you went off to war, you had another thing on 51 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:48.000 your mind, and that also made you very excited for the war to be 52 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:54.199 over. A certain young lady was very much in your life, and so 53 00:05:54.360 --> 00:05:59.319 you decided to give her something very special. Tell me about that. Oh 54 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:09.160 yes, my first year of training from one one base to another and ended 55 00:06:09.279 --> 00:06:15.560 up at Hume, Arizona for gunnery training. And then I had a two 56 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:27.600 week furlough and from there I went home and I had an opportunity to purchase 57 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:34.959 a ring. Then I gave her that ring while we were there, and 58 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:43.759 so I tied us up for the for the for the for the during ration 59 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:46.480 of the war. That is excellent incentive to do a good job and to 60 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:50.720 get home. So well done on that front. And so when did you 61 00:06:51.079 --> 00:07:00.759 get deployed across the Atlantic. We had a new B seventeen and the whole 62 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:08.920 flight crew loaded our baggage on it and we flew from Kerney, Nebraska to 63 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:15.079 bang of Maine and Gander, Newfoundland and ended in Prestick, Scotland. So 64 00:07:15.319 --> 00:07:27.240 from there we went by truck down through Bassingbourne, England. And so that 65 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:32.480 was in the last of May, in June of forty four, so you 66 00:07:32.560 --> 00:07:36.160 got to the south of England right around the time of the D Day invasion. 67 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:46.560 Yes, we were at our face in Bassingbourne, and and there again 68 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:53.720 we all listened to the radio and as that whole thing was going on. 69 00:07:54.079 --> 00:08:01.199 We weren't trained to participate in any way, but but I was listening to 70 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:07.240 foot I said on the radio, Well, that had to be a huge 71 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:13.839 boost in morale for everyone there, I would imagine, well, yeah, 72 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:20.800 it was moving us closer to actually what was going to happen and what we 73 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:26.240 were probably going to be doing. Well, mister Hamilton, let's pause right 74 00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:28.839 there. When we come back, we'll start talking about your missions, the 75 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:35.799 eight that you safely returned from and also the ninth which did not return safely 76 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:39.440 and resulted in your time as a prisoner of war. Our guest today is 77 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:43.039 Richard Hamilton. He's a veteran of the US Army Air Corps serving as a 78 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:48.480 radio man on a B seventeen bomber crew. We'll be right back on Veterans 79 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:54.600 Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas. Please stay with us. This is Veterans Chronicles. 80 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:58.799 I'm Greg Corumbas. Our guest in this edition is Richard Hamilton, a 81 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:01.799 veteran of the US Army Air Corps in World War Two, serving as a 82 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:07.080 radio man on a B seventeen bomber crew. We've talked about his training, 83 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:13.960 We've talked about him being in southern England getting ready to participate in bombing runs 84 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:18.399 around the time of the D Day landings, that his crew did not participate 85 00:09:18.399 --> 00:09:20.720 in those, but soon they would be taking to the skies. And so, 86 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:26.559 sir, take me to that first mission on the B seventeen. What 87 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:31.720 do you remember about it and how did it compare to what you thought it 88 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:37.679 would be like. We were roused at three thirty or four in the morning, 89 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:46.759 and we went from breakfast and we went to a session of briefing, 90 00:09:48.919 --> 00:09:56.120 and then I remember going out to the plane and it was a cloudy, 91 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:03.159 foggy morning, as most of them seemed to be in England, and we 92 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:11.960 watched people were getting the plane ready for our take off. I was inside 93 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:18.559 and didn't see much, but I realized that the things were going on. 94 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:22.200 They had to prepare the plane for takeoff, and I guess now what I 95 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.879 was thinking about was going down the runway with all the bombs in and with 96 00:10:30.039 --> 00:10:37.440 the bumping along. And then we smoothed things out when we began lifting off 97 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:45.240 on taking off, and then we went through that mist and fog and so 98 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:54.679 forth until we circled around and I realized that we were gaining our altitude and 99 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.960 finally we got up to where the sun was shining, and that was an 100 00:11:00.120 --> 00:11:07.039 experience that made things much better. But flying through that fog, I didn't 101 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:11.799 have much of a view of it. I wasn't up front like the bombardier 102 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:18.360 and the navigator, and so I had just that little window over the wing. 103 00:11:18.759 --> 00:11:26.600 And we didn't encounter any fighter planes that day, and it was seemed 104 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:33.200 to be smooth. And let's see, I don't think I experienced flack that 105 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:41.960 first mission. When we got back, it was a matter of going back 106 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:50.159 into briefing, and it was not a rough mission as some of the others 107 00:11:50.480 --> 00:11:56.799 were, and and it wasn't an especially long one either. We went through 108 00:11:56.799 --> 00:12:07.480 a debriefing time and then a meal that was mighty good, because I don't 109 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:15.200 know that we properly ate, what we what I should haven't. Breakfast doesn't 110 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:20.919 give you much of an idea for our first mission was like, but I 111 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:24.320 think it was in Tours, France, but I'm not just sure if that 112 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:28.639 was the first of the second, and I'll be checking up on that. 113 00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:33.120 I guess it was relatively short and you took no flak. That's a pretty 114 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.919 good first mission. I'd say, let's talk about general conditions on board, 115 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:41.480 because I don't think a lot of people know about some of these things. 116 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:45.759 First of all, talk about how cold it is on board the plane. 117 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:52.919 That is something that surprised me too. We get up to ten thousand feet 118 00:12:52.960 --> 00:13:01.440 and the pilot says, okay, oxygen masks, and so we put on 119 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:07.720 our oxygen mask. And one of the things that I remember about how cold 120 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:16.399 it was was when a drop of moisture and the oxygen mask dropped onto my 121 00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:26.039 radio desk in front of me. It wasn't immediate exactly, but I went 122 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:33.559 to rub that off the desk and had already frozen, and that was I 123 00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:43.440 couldn't leave that. But of course we had heated and there was check ups. 124 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:50.679 Let's see, one would go through some of those things like make sure 125 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:56.840 heated suits were properly working. There was a check back to the pilot or 126 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:05.240 I think the oxygen mask that was the same thing, to make sure they 127 00:14:05.279 --> 00:14:11.320 were properly. I don't know how that was done either, But talk about 128 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:18.679 how loud it was on board. Oh yeah, those four Pratt and Whitney 129 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:26.879 engines, twelve hundred horsepower. Each one by itself made a lot of noise, 130 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.919 and then they started the second one, and the third one and the 131 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:37.320 fourth one, and so that began to make some noise, and there was 132 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:46.279 no protection from outside except that layer of aluminum of the surface of the B 133 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:52.240 seventeen. When they revved up several different times to make sure they were all 134 00:14:52.279 --> 00:15:01.759 functioning properly, that was a lot of noise. And then when you get 135 00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:13.039 airborne, you're still in that drone of loud noise, and yet our intercornes 136 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.480 worked inside our helmet, and of course in the whole thing was loud, 137 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:22.480 loud, loud, and that it was the drone that we faced all the 138 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:28.960 time that we were flying. And mister Hamiltons, you mentioned that on your 139 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:35.000 first mission you did not encounter any flak, any anti aircraft fire from the 140 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:39.840 Germans on the ground. I'm guessing that on later missions you did. What 141 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.919 was it like to fly through that? Oh, it was a very scary 142 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:52.200 time. It was frightening and we could see it bursting around us. And 143 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:58.279 then I remember one time it was a cloudy day. We were heading from 144 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:06.480 Munich that particular day and it was a long day, and so we were 145 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:14.039 going through flack. The pilot said, you see that black cloud up ahead. 146 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.759 He says, that's flack and that's over the target, and he says, 147 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:26.960 we've got to go through that. And that was beginning to be scary. 148 00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:33.679 But as we did fly through it, some of those bursts of traillery 149 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:41.440 fire you could heal it close enough to lift our plane as we were flying 150 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:49.159 through, and we had a few punctures in the plane, but none of 151 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:56.799 us during that time were injured. That's what it was. I mean, 152 00:16:56.200 --> 00:17:03.159 some planes were hit and they went down. That of course, is the 153 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:08.799 idea of their trying to bring us down anyway, And so that's what I 154 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:15.480 remember about the flag. It was terrible. Mister Hamilton. Let's take one 155 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:18.880 more break. When we come back, we'll talk about your ninth mission, 156 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:25.079 the one that you did not return from immediately and resulted in You Becoming a 157 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.000 Prisoner of War. Our guest is Richard Hamilton, a veteran of the US 158 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.680 Army Air Corps world War Two, serving as a radio man on a B 159 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:38.759 seventeen bomber crew. I'm Greg Corumbas and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is 160 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:44.559 Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in this edition is Richard Hamilton. 161 00:17:45.039 --> 00:17:47.960 He is a veteran of the US Army Air Corps in World War Two, 162 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:52.480 serving on a B seventeen bomber crew as a radio man. We've been 163 00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:57.319 talking about his first eight missions, from the first one, which was relatively 164 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:03.079 short and encountering no flat back to some of the ones that were more harrowing 165 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.079 involving quite a bit of groundfire from the Germans. But none of that compares 166 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:11.480 to what happened on the ninth mission, which we'll talk about now. And 167 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:18.279 so mister Hamilton tell me how the flight started and how things went wrong. 168 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:26.359 The day started as as usual. We were prepared with the breakfast, and 169 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:36.279 then this day we had clear whether there was just now and then a little 170 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:45.519 cloud layer at round ten thousand feet as I remember, So we were heading 171 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:57.759 toward Leipzig to bomb the airfield there or and as we went along we expected 172 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:06.759 a fighter planes to protect us the fifty ones, but when the tail gunner 173 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:15.759 saw them coming in early on, they were tiny specks. And next we 174 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:23.079 knew he was saying, and it's coming in on the tail, and there 175 00:19:23.200 --> 00:19:32.640 was sixty or more f W one nineties and any one oh nines that were 176 00:19:32.759 --> 00:19:37.599 stacked in such a way that they came at us. It was that first 177 00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:48.079 wave that did destroyed our plane and put the smoke and bullet holes through the 178 00:19:48.160 --> 00:19:56.319 plane, and the bombay was on fire, and the right wing was shot 179 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:06.359 off at number four engine, and we began to lose altitude and to sort 180 00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:14.440 of get turned so that we were going to be spinning. The communication was 181 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:19.759 knocked out of that, so we didn't know what was happening up front. 182 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:30.079 But I was down with the waist gunner at first, and then I left 183 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:36.799 my radio table and when to a gun. But later we knew that we 184 00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:41.759 got to bail out. But I tried to get up through the bombay and 185 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:51.759 it was just full of flames and and there at the bomb still hanging there. 186 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:56.839 A little extinguisher didn't do anything, and so back I went, and 187 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:03.039 the waist gunner was at the waist hatch and ready to go, and I 188 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:10.200 gestured is to what was in back. We didn't know what happened to the 189 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:17.720 gunner. He wasn't standing there. And the waist gunner looked at me and 190 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:22.759 shook his head. And so there were the two of us there to go 191 00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:27.440 out, and and so I I followed him out. And that was a 192 00:21:27.559 --> 00:21:34.200 hard thing to do, to go out that hatch when so many times before 193 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:40.440 you'd knew just where you were going to land down on your feet, and 194 00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:48.920 this time was certainly different. And so out we went. And with those 195 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:56.000 planes, I had they sense not to pull that rip cord. Our mission 196 00:21:56.279 --> 00:22:03.000 is at the twenty fourth thousand feet, and I think probably when we bailed 197 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:11.799 out, it was perhaps about eighteen and so the air was light and hostile, 198 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:21.880 so no parachute was deployed, and so I just went free fall. 199 00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:29.400 But I was like a rag doll out there with no bearing whatsoever. And 200 00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:37.359 finally I extended my arms out straight realized that began to stabilize my flight. 201 00:22:37.799 --> 00:22:42.200 It just seemed like I was flying horizontally, but all the time we were 202 00:22:44.000 --> 00:22:52.000 dropping down. But I was faced down and realized that if I angled my 203 00:22:52.640 --> 00:23:02.440 palms in my hand, I could move and sort of cold roll my flight. 204 00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:06.720 And it just seemed like a flight. Yes, I keep calling it 205 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:11.200 a flight, and yet I was dropping. And so I went through that 206 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:22.720 little cloud layer at ten thousand feet and the air went from cold to warm. 207 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:27.880 Oh, it was so warm. And then at five thousand I'm guessing 208 00:23:29.440 --> 00:23:36.759 forty five feet, I pulled my shoot and only two or three swings and 209 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:42.319 I was down on the ground. Well I landed, I drifting along, 210 00:23:42.440 --> 00:23:52.200 and so I went down on my right shoulder and it's hurt. But I 211 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:59.440 didn't describe how when I did pull my shoet how I had a chest back 212 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:08.559 and so with the harness, it just bent me right in two and apparently 213 00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:15.359 injured my back a little when I don't know whether it was when I pulled 214 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:22.359 the shoot or whether I hit the ground, but I tried quickly to pull 215 00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:30.160 in my shoe. It was in a wheat field and hard July twentieth forty 216 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:36.440 four hot day, and it was on the sort of edge of the village. 217 00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:45.319 And I saw in the window woman witnessing my landing there, and next 218 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:52.720 I say she had disappeared, and it wasn't too long before the whole village 219 00:24:52.839 --> 00:25:00.279 came out with clubs and pitchforks, and the lead man was fire ring a 220 00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:06.240 pistol from either hand, and I just did have a feeling that pretty sill. 221 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:10.920 I'm going to feel what it's like to get a bullet in me. 222 00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:18.160 And but he wasn't firing, I guess to get me, but he was 223 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:26.240 letting me know that I wasn't a welcome visitor here on German soil. It 224 00:25:26.319 --> 00:25:33.319 wasn't very long before I realized that I had lost my freedom and that was 225 00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.359 up to them as to how they were going to deal with me. And 226 00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:44.799 they surrounded me and got me to put my hands up. And I wasn't 227 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:52.000 savvy on the German language, but there were lots of allowed to talk, 228 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:57.279 and so I got my hands up. I was pushed and shoved down into 229 00:25:57.319 --> 00:26:03.160 the village, and as I went by one of the mustachioed older men, 230 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:12.599 and he looked at me and said schweinehound, and he spit in my face. 231 00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:21.119 And it was not just a sit, it was a whole wad. 232 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:27.920 He gave me the full amount, and so that was dripping off my face. 233 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:33.519 And I that was the way I went into the village, and they 234 00:26:33.599 --> 00:26:37.880 got me into what I guess was a town hall, town eating, I 235 00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:45.799 guess, and they began interrogating and looking at my outfit. I guess more 236 00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:52.240 than anything else. I was had that parachute harness and took that off, 237 00:26:52.400 --> 00:27:03.079 and then the May West and all the stuff was gesturing and they were talking 238 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:07.880 all the time, and I'm not knowing what was being said, and so 239 00:27:07.960 --> 00:27:14.799 they wanted me to take off that Maywest, and then they looked it all 240 00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:21.319 over and they wanted to know how, and I pulled a little shoot the 241 00:27:21.400 --> 00:27:27.440 CO two thing that fills it with air, and that happened to squeak like 242 00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:34.119 as a kid you blew up a balloon and you stretch out the nose of 243 00:27:34.119 --> 00:27:41.519 it and it squeals. And that's just the way that CO two pressure going 244 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:48.160 into that Maywest. So they were oh ah. They searched me all over, 245 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:52.920 and I know we had an opportunity to take our issued forty five, 246 00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.079 and I thought, well, what would I do with it? Going deep 247 00:27:59.119 --> 00:28:03.680 into Germany? What would I do with the forty five? And I do 248 00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:11.640 feel very certain even to this very day that if I'd had that forty five, 249 00:28:12.480 --> 00:28:19.119 I would have realized how it was to receive a bullet, because they 250 00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:27.720 were pretty rough on me, and they didn't really beat, but they shoved 251 00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:34.920 and poked and pushed, and I was gathered up and with a truck that 252 00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:45.200 had blood stains in it and taken to a collecting place. And then I 253 00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:52.559 was putting a little cell overnight and the next morning I can just say I 254 00:28:52.599 --> 00:29:00.599 can hear keys jingling and opening doors three doors before he got to my cell, 255 00:29:00.759 --> 00:29:07.400 and he brought in some hot boiled potatoes. I was handcuffed behind me 256 00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:15.160 and during the night, and they squashed. The handcuff sounds so tight that 257 00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:22.720 circulations to my hand was cut right off to the right arm, and so 258 00:29:23.279 --> 00:29:30.039 my hand was puffed way up so I couldn't hold of eating utensil. And 259 00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:37.160 that was my first day. And tell me about the conditions in the prison 260 00:29:37.200 --> 00:29:41.640 camp where you were sent, well, it was quite a lot of a 261 00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:48.279 few days before I went to a prison camp, we went to what is 262 00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:56.519 called doolud Luft. That's when we were interrogated and tried to find out who 263 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:06.680 our crew members were a list. But we had been a briefing before England 264 00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:11.759 was if we became a prisoner of war, you'd only had to disclose your 265 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:18.000 name, rank and serial number and other questions. You didn't have to disclose 266 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:26.279 anything. And so there's different methods of interrogation. Some were one fellow was 267 00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:37.079 spoke perfect English and he was asked me about one of the New York nightclubs 268 00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:42.200 or something. He was a good guy. And then they have another one 269 00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:51.440 that comes in and they opened up books and showed the different training bases in 270 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:59.640 this country and a different rank. They had everything in those books, and 271 00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:06.279 they wondering where I was trained, and all listener. And so without a 272 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:12.599 response, I was put in a solitary confinement and the next day I'd be 273 00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:19.839 brought out and interviewed again. And and like I say, there different methods 274 00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:29.359 and different personalities. So they said, well and untill you talk, you'll 275 00:31:29.400 --> 00:31:36.079 just be in solitary with your bread and water. And that's the way I 276 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:41.279 was for eight days. And then next I knew they were getting a whole 277 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:49.119 group ready to go. In that group was a young man from neighboring Putney 278 00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:56.519 from Aunt who we had met in high school and couldn't believe that it was 279 00:31:56.599 --> 00:32:00.759 like a bit of home to meet him, and it was just great. 280 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:08.200 But then we got on to a troop carrying train for about four days to 281 00:32:08.319 --> 00:32:15.400 get to where we were going to get off and go to about four kilometers 282 00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:23.519 up to the Stalacluft prison camp. And as a forerunner, before we got 283 00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:31.359 off the train, there was a captain of the guards or captain or he 284 00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:38.240 was, I'll call him captain, but he was yelling like a madman about 285 00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:46.039 the cities that had been bombed. And then he was leading his troops, 286 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:54.079 quite a lot of guards out there, and then he gave a sharp order 287 00:32:54.160 --> 00:33:00.640 and and I guess that was to fix bayonets, and they was just a 288 00:33:00.720 --> 00:33:07.240 loud clatter of steel. Everything was precision, and we could see police dogs 289 00:33:07.319 --> 00:33:15.839 out there. And then we were allowed to get off the train and then 290 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:23.480 to form a column on the road, and there was a column of four, 291 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:34.559 as I remember, and I happened to be then another friend that had 292 00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:39.359 had befriended anyway that it was next to me in the middle, and a 293 00:33:39.480 --> 00:33:46.200 big tall fellow on the outside on my left side. And I don't know 294 00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:52.960 why I describe him is because when we got started to march, and then 295 00:33:53.000 --> 00:34:02.000 they wanted fast pace and then they wanted double time and faster pace, and 296 00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:13.320 each received a shell of a suitcase filled with red cross things, sweaters, 297 00:34:13.400 --> 00:34:21.239 I mean, just toothbrush and all things that we had been missing since our 298 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:28.480 mourning at Passing Bourn, So those were sort of cherished and we tried to 299 00:34:28.519 --> 00:34:34.400 hang onto them. And on the outside were the guards that were shouting, 300 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:45.079 and dogs were held back, but every now and then they'd be right next 301 00:34:45.159 --> 00:34:52.119 to us. And when we got to the prison camp, there were thirty 302 00:34:52.159 --> 00:35:00.159 five that came in on a flatbed horse drawn wagon. And I saw one 303 00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:09.440 fellow there with his pants just crimson with blood where he'd been jabbed with the 304 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:16.119 bayonet being on the outside. And this fellow that I spoke about on my 305 00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:22.400 left, he was a big fellow, and he looked at the guard and 306 00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:29.800 I don't know how you can interpret the look he gave, but the guard 307 00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:34.679 took his rifle and hit him in the back of the neck and he went 308 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:42.079 down, so I didn't see him again. But it was a rough session. 309 00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:47.760 To get to that prison camp. We put in the barracks that were 310 00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:58.239 off the ground along stills like off the ground so the dogs could walk under, 311 00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:05.360 and an all around down and they knew that there was no tunnel escaping, 312 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:10.320 and that was they were trying to avoid. But that's what you asked 313 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:15.079 me, is as what it was like in the camp. Well, every 314 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:23.039 day they had to count us and know that we're all there, and so 315 00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:30.039 all the barracks went out front and stood at attention out there while they counted 316 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:39.960 the whole compound and Stagluft was divided off into four different sections, and we 317 00:36:39.960 --> 00:36:47.360 were in Section C, there was ABC and D, and each morning and 318 00:36:47.599 --> 00:36:54.599 night we were out front and counted. And some of the days in that 319 00:36:54.880 --> 00:37:05.719 hot summer it was so hot, we'd stand there until they counted everyone in 320 00:37:05.719 --> 00:37:10.159 that compound. It was grueling. In the winter time, we'd just about 321 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:15.920 freeze up before they satisfied with the count and we could go back. But 322 00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:23.079 I know sometimes when it was so long a wait and Ray finally would find 323 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:30.159 some guy, they'd go through the barracks and when a kid failed to come 324 00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:37.079 out, he was sleeping and they'd bring out a guy and then soon after 325 00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:45.480 we could be discharged and go back to our barracks. It was one of 326 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:52.360 those things that you dread going out to be counted, because you'd stand there 327 00:37:52.400 --> 00:38:00.679 at their attention, and where they go up and down all the rows and 328 00:38:00.679 --> 00:38:07.960 they make their tally. And but I'll tell you one thing that was very 329 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:16.119 upsetting was when they'd come in at night, get everyone out of their sacks 330 00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:23.079 and and then start going through. What I guess they were looking for was 331 00:38:23.159 --> 00:38:30.880 this little crystal radio that was somewhere in the compound. Periodically we'd have someone 332 00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:39.440 come in with a bit of BBC news to let us be updated on the 333 00:38:39.559 --> 00:38:49.400 status of the war. It was a rough time because when they'd go into 334 00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:57.079 the sacks and search everything, and and then they mess up the room, 335 00:38:57.239 --> 00:39:04.239 and then they'd go out. Soon the lights went out, and you just 336 00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:09.000 had to do the best you could putting things back together in the dark. 337 00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:19.280 But it was pretty upsetting the way they could antagonize and just make life not 338 00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:22.920 so pleasant. Mister Hamilton's, let's pause your story right there. When we 339 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:28.000 come back, we'll pick up your story as a prisoner of war in Germany 340 00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:31.400 and learn what happened about a year into your captivity. That was certainly not 341 00:39:31.639 --> 00:39:37.199 a welcome change. Our guest in this edition is Richard Hamilton. He's a 342 00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:39.639 World War Two veteran of the Army Air Corps, served as a radio man 343 00:39:39.719 --> 00:39:45.039 on a B seventeen bomber crew and then spent well over a year as a 344 00:39:45.159 --> 00:39:51.480 German POW. I'm Greg Corumbus. We'll be right back. This is Veterans 345 00:39:51.559 --> 00:39:55.000 Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Honored to be joined today by Richard Hamilton. 346 00:39:55.440 --> 00:40:00.360 He is a World War Two veteran of the US Army Air Corps. Served 347 00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:04.159 on nine missions as a radio man on a B seventeen bomber crew. But 348 00:40:04.280 --> 00:40:07.400 as you've heard, on that ninth mission, his plane was shot down, 349 00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:12.199 he was forced to jump, and he soon became a German prisoner of war. 350 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:17.119 And mister Hamilton, it was in February of nineteen forty five that your 351 00:40:17.159 --> 00:40:22.280 situation as a prisoner of war changed, and not for the better. The 352 00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:28.920 next seventy seven days would be extraordinarily difficult for you. Explain what happened well 353 00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:36.760 in February forty five. On February sixth, we were told to get ready 354 00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:42.800 and we're going to leave the camp. Those days were cold and snowy, 355 00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:52.480 and when we left the camp, we went by a whole store of Red 356 00:40:53.199 --> 00:41:00.239 Cross parcels that had been opened up that food should have been hours from the 357 00:41:00.280 --> 00:41:09.480 Red Cross, and it would supplement that bread ration that we got. So 358 00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:17.679 some fellows opened them on the way and got their bellies full, and and 359 00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:25.199 then out we went onto the road and and that first night we went into 360 00:41:25.480 --> 00:41:31.960 sort of a stump field like that was where we were stopping for the night, 361 00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:37.519 and it was sort of not pouring rain, but it was sort of 362 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:45.719 a spitting close to freezing. I remember the next morning I was so stiff. 363 00:41:45.760 --> 00:41:51.159 I thought, oh my gosh, I'm not going to be able to 364 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:59.400 run again. But we were rounded up and on we went to walk that 365 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:05.239 day and it was just laboring to put one foot in front of the other, 366 00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:10.880 but finally we did it. And we did that for seventy seven days. 367 00:42:12.679 --> 00:42:19.559 Sometimes they'd find a barn for us to have shelter, and I remember 368 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:30.960 after in the dark, having boiled potatoes in my knit od cap. They 369 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:37.480 were just elegant without salt, pepper or butter, and they were pretty gritty. 370 00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:45.280 They'd been cooked, I guess for farm animals, and that's why they 371 00:42:45.320 --> 00:42:52.239 weren't well prepared, but they did taste elegant. But on we went, 372 00:42:52.480 --> 00:43:00.639 and I remember having a cold and dysentery and well, I just describe it 373 00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:07.159 as every day was just as we walked along. It was just laboring to 374 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:14.599 to continue on. But I remember going over a not a regular bridge, 375 00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:21.559 but a big thing, and people were lined up, I guess to watch 376 00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:27.000 these prisoners of war, and some of them, you know, had to 377 00:43:27.159 --> 00:43:34.039 just pull down their pants because of the dysentery. And so he was really 378 00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:39.599 a rough time. But like I say, some of the days would become 379 00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:49.199 very pleasant, and we had a doctor Kaplan. He'd go ahead and negotiate 380 00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:55.800 for us to get the best accommodations he could find for us. And my 381 00:43:57.239 --> 00:44:02.679 friend, as he tells it, he said doctor Kaplan came along and he 382 00:44:04.400 --> 00:44:10.440 told him that he was I don't know, he felt sick and he needed 383 00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:15.920 some attention. And the doctor, he said, looked at him and swiped 384 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:22.679 off the lice from his chest and put his ear down and he said, 385 00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:27.679 you've got pneumonia. And he says, I can't do anything for you. 386 00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:35.679 I don't have anything for you. So he really had a hard time the 387 00:44:35.679 --> 00:44:40.840 rest of the time, and I guess very close to not surviving at all. 388 00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:50.320 As the days went by, we sometimes got acquainted with different guards. 389 00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:58.119 They weren't young boys like we were. They were older guys, and they'd 390 00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:04.239 got to be I think more of our guides than our guards. And because 391 00:45:04.280 --> 00:45:13.599 sometimes civilians would rush out and gesture and they'd have to beat them back. 392 00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:17.480 And another thing, come to think of it, when we were walking along 393 00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:27.079 there was Russian captives serving on these farms, and they came out with cups 394 00:45:27.119 --> 00:45:32.480 of water, and the guards beat them back. And I can see afterwards 395 00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:38.360 that if they lose control of our gang, if we got that drink of 396 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:45.119 water on the way. So that was another thing that made things rough, 397 00:45:45.360 --> 00:45:52.599 is to be hungry and thirsty issue have to walk. Yeah, I can't 398 00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:57.599 imagine walking twenty miles a day for seventy seven days in a row. It's 399 00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:02.039 it's unbelievable. Did the Nazis do to the people who couldn't keep up? 400 00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:10.639 Well, I tell you we always wondered that's what would make anyone keep going 401 00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:19.119 to the endurance here full existence, It is just to keep going and not 402 00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:27.599 dropped back to the end. We'd heard sometimes so different ones. The rumors 403 00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:36.280 were, did you hear that shot? And so we always tried to manage 404 00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:42.119 not to be on the end in the back and because you never knew what 405 00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:49.599 was happening. But at that time did I say? It was a quiet 406 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:59.840 morning. And I had left the marching group and fell back to this bunch 407 00:47:00.039 --> 00:47:05.960 that were crouched down. They were the six dragglers, I call them, 408 00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:12.440 and I joined with them, and then realized that the town was quiet. 409 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:22.800 About noontime, two Russians on horseback came into the village and U and they 410 00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:28.639 wondered who we are, and and I was spoke to one. I said 411 00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:37.320 American, and he yelled out Americanski. And that's our first little step to 412 00:47:37.239 --> 00:47:44.639 coming back to freedom. But we were allowed to walk around in the in 413 00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:52.239 the Russian territory. And but that was a long time to endure hardships, 414 00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:58.239 and and there were many How much weight did you lose as a prisoner? 415 00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:05.239 Well, I was one hundred and eighteen pounds. My weight when I started 416 00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:10.679 out was one hundred and forty seven pounds when I entered the service. After 417 00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:15.679 you were freed, could you eat regular food right away or was it a 418 00:48:15.719 --> 00:48:23.400 gradual process of getting to eat again. There was a empty farmhouse right there, 419 00:48:24.559 --> 00:48:31.639 and we took up occupancy and in that and there was a farm right 420 00:48:31.679 --> 00:48:38.679 there and I get warm milk. You go in and these milk maids were 421 00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:45.920 doing the caring for the animals, and so there was warm milk right there, 422 00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:54.440 and that was very Oh, that was good. And I have another 423 00:48:55.440 --> 00:49:02.599 experience. In that farmhouse where we were living, there was a chicken house 424 00:49:02.800 --> 00:49:10.400 not too far away where we could get some eggs, and so we took 425 00:49:10.519 --> 00:49:19.400 up living in that house. One night, we had a candle going in 426 00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:25.639 there and knock at the door, and I went to the door and realized 427 00:49:25.800 --> 00:49:35.840 I was facing German with his cap that you can identify him as a German 428 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:49.960 soldier. And so in walked nine heavily armed German soldiers. We were and 429 00:49:50.079 --> 00:49:57.280 cooking the oven. Must house must have smelled so good. But apparently they 430 00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:04.960 had deserted on the Russian front and headed west. They wanted to be taken 431 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:13.679 in by the Americans instead of the Russians. So there we were cooking for 432 00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:21.519 the next day's walk where we were close to Torgau, and there was a 433 00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:28.199 bridge there being repaired and we had to stay there for a day or so, 434 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:35.760 and we were cooking and the sergeant someone went right to that oven and 435 00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:39.960 they were going to grab that food and that I can't believe it, but 436 00:50:40.159 --> 00:50:46.000 the sergeant says, no, nine nine, hands off. But they went 437 00:50:46.079 --> 00:50:55.119 down in the cellar and there was sorghum molasses and there were I suppose salt 438 00:50:55.320 --> 00:51:05.440 pork and along the other provisions that were stored away in the cellar. And 439 00:51:05.599 --> 00:51:13.119 they ate that stuff and came back, and then they wanted to go with 440 00:51:13.199 --> 00:51:16.920 us the next day, and I said, oh, no, no, 441 00:51:16.920 --> 00:51:24.360 no. They said they could change their clothes and go with us, and 442 00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:30.159 I said no, no. And after a while I came up from the 443 00:51:30.199 --> 00:51:40.159 cellar and went out into the night. And that was pretty a scary situation 444 00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:47.679 there for a while, but they respected us, and I just marveled at 445 00:51:47.679 --> 00:51:54.639 that, because I don't think we would be so disciplined. Mister Hamilton's a 446 00:51:54.760 --> 00:52:00.239 last question for you, sir. The people who cherish freedom the most are 447 00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:06.360 often people who know what it's like to not have freedom. So given the 448 00:52:06.360 --> 00:52:10.000 fact that you know what it's like to not have freedom, how special is 449 00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:14.360 the freedoms we have in this country? How special are those to you? 450 00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:22.760 What I realize is that the people here we don't appreciate until freedom is denied. 451 00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:34.480 Only then do you realize what freedom means and is, and I use 452 00:52:34.599 --> 00:52:43.880 that in my talks to school groups, and I said that we look at 453 00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:50.559 that flag, and if you don't salute it and appreciate it and worship that 454 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:59.559 flag, you don't realize the freedoms that are there for everyone as long as 455 00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:05.159 you're own to that flag. And that's what we didn't have. We didn't 456 00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:12.360 have an American flag to give us that protection. And that's what was the 457 00:53:12.400 --> 00:53:19.559 basis of my talk all the time, was when you see that flag, 458 00:53:20.559 --> 00:53:25.679 don't just sit there on the curb, get up and salute it as it 459 00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:34.280 goes by, and treat it with reverence. And I'm afraid we're now losing 460 00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:44.360 some of our freedoms that we cherish. Nevertheless, it's not like living without 461 00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:49.480 the freedom that we have. Well, mister Hamilton, we thank you very 462 00:53:49.519 --> 00:53:52.199 much for your time today, and most of all, we thank you for 463 00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:55.480 your incredible service and sacrifice for our country. Thank you, sir very much. 464 00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:01.119 All right, you're welcome. Chard Hamilton as a World War Two veteran 465 00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:06.079 of the US Army Air Corps, serving as a radioman on a B seventeen 466 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:09.239 bomber crew. He flew on eight successful missions, but was forced to jump 467 00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:14.760 after his plane was badly damaged on the ninth mission. He spent more than 468 00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:20.400 a year as a German prisoner of war. I'm Greg Corumbus and this is 469 00:54:20.480 --> 00:54:34.760 Veterans Chronicles. Hi, this is Greg Corumbus and thanks for listening to Veterans 470 00:54:34.840 --> 00:54:39.199 Chronicles, a presentation of the American Veterans Center. For more information, please 471 00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:45.880 visit American Veterans Center dot org. You can also follow the American Veteran Center 472 00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:51.679 on Facebook and on Twitter. We're at AVC update. Subscribe to the American 473 00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:57.360 Veterans Center YouTube channel for full oral histories and special features, and of course, 474 00:54:57.559 --> 00:55:01.920 please subscribe to the Veterans Chronicles podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks 475 00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:06.880 again for listening, and please join us next time for Veterans Chronicles.