What's up, y'all is Drewsky and I've teamed up with Mountain Dew to produce a hilarious new basketball podcast called The due Zone with Drewsky. Learn the backstories of your favorite balls and celebrities like Jamal Murray. Did you have like a favorite team? Was it the Raptors at the time or no? Was the Raptors even started around the topic? Come on, bro, I had that tell you like I'm Vifty, Taylor Rogues, Asian Wilson and many more. You won't want to miss this. Listen to The Due Zone with Drewsky on Apple, Podcast, Spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts. Pile leaned in and said something to Freddie, don't let them change you. Keep working on what makes you different and what makes you special. It was great advice, but it calls me some problems. But what could change Freddie Ado? Soccer is going to explode it and it's going to be around this kid. We're the Beatles. Everywhere we went it was the Freddie Show and with that came the expectation, and with that came the pressure. New episodes of American Prodigy drop Tuesday from Blue Wire Podcasts. What is up part of Knox Listeners. I am Dan Favalle, coming at you without my fantastic co host this time, Adam frommel I am excited to get back to our team look Ahead train. We took a brief break so that we could do our wind total projections relative to the over under. If you've not checked out that pod, please do so. There's a lot of fun. As per usual, this time we're gonna be talking all things Cleveland Cavaliers and San Antonio Spurs. For the Cavs, I've brought on Justin Rowan. He co hosts the Chase Down pod, which is a part of the Blue Wire podcast networks. Follow him at calves a nada. That's at c A v s A na DA. Then for the Spurs, we will be speaking with Paul Garcia. He covers the NBA and the Spurs for Projects Spurs and analyzing the league. Follow him on Twitter at Paul Garcia MBA spelled exactly as it sounds. Excited to talk to them before we get started, though, just another reminder the usual monitor Please please, please, pretty please subscribe to us if you've not done that already. If you're a first time listener, wherever you're getting your podcast, download every episode and regardless of whether you use iTunes, please head over there search Hardwood Knox, throw us that fire star rating, writer review. They help us out a ton. I cannot stress that enough in such a small fraction of people who listen to this podcast, relative to our downloads every single episode have done. So I'm not trying to pester you, but it could really help us out, So please do that without further delay. Though, Let's talk some Cleveland Cavaliers or everything Cleveland Cavaliers with Justin Rowan, and then we'll move on to everything in Anything San Antonio Spurs with Paul Garcia. Justin, welcome back to the Hardwooknox podcast. I haven't spoken with you. We did a Blue Ire podcast together, like over a year ago, but I'm pretty sure we've not done a Hardwoodknox episode together, and probably closer to two years. We are on Skype. As you said, it feels like it's twenty fifteen. How are you doing. I'm doing well, man. Thank you so much for having me back. Always down to talk with you, and you know what, I'm glad that we waited a little bit to talk some Cavs because I think there's a little bit more reasons for legitimate optimism when it comes to the Cavs right now than there would have been if we talked over the last two years. Yeah, So I have like a super rambly looking spreadsheet where I highlighted the teams, certain teams I wanted to make sure I talked about before the season actually started, because there's just with the off season we had, there was no way I was going to get to every single preview, and I highlighted teams that I thought were neglected on this podcast over the past year, and the Calves, the Bulls, and the Wizards were like the ones that I singled out, and actually we didn't talk about them enough and they did have like some this function going on last season, but they are legitimately a team. I'm not even just saying this because you're on the podcast. They're one of the teams I'm more curious about. I feel like I just don't have a F four very much, and those are among my favorite teams to talk about because it just I've become inherently more curious about them. Then, Yeah, they're in a funny position right now where three straight years I get a lot of kind of draft feedback up, Well, I really like this player, but it's a shame they got drafted by the Calves. And if you do that enough years in a row, I think eventually you start becoming a better team. So that is one of my kind of outsiders signs that at least they're kind of on the right track. There's I think there is if you're not in the championship or bust mentality, because I still don't think this is a playoff team, but if you are interested in kind of young talent in team building, I think the Calves are kind of trending in an interesting direction. Well, they have like stuff now and I have, like, I think it five players listed before I even ask you with Kevin Love trade question, So that's like there's got to be some sort of a record. I'll start with Okoro and I had listened back to the live draft episode of the Chase, on which I believe you were not on. Carter seemed to like the pick in so far that it made him money because he bet that that's where our core was going. What did you think of that pick, because it does it feels like he's exactly what they need. On defense. I'm just curious, is that how you view his fit on offense, assuming of course that the video they posted of him hitting and off the dribble jumper to win a scrimmage the other day is not like just the standard for him. Yeah, I really like to pick. So my number one guy in the draft was okong Wu. I think there were some concerns with his health and also it kind of seems like small forwards in today's NBA are one of the toughest things to find a LA count at like that that's a position where it's just scared. So I think when you have a high pick, there's a mindset that you gotta go with a wing player if there is one available, and o'corl to me, was my favorite wing prospect in this draft. I think from the defensive perspective, like it makes a ton of sense why you bring him, and this is a guy that already has a man's body you can defend one through four. I think team defense is going to take a little while, as it always does with young players, but I think at point of attack, he's going to bring them something that they haven't had before, which I think really opens up a lot of possibilities on the offensive side. He's a very intelligent player. I think he's an underrated passer, good finisher around the rim, moves well without the ball, which is something that's good to have when you have a lot of ball dominant players. As far as the jump shot goes, there was optimism about that after his workout. He himself said that his jumper in college was probably a CE and he got it up to a B plus. I'm not going to buy into that to that extent, but the mechanics are a whole lot cleaner, and from what we've heard out of camp. We just podcasted with Larry Nance last week and he was talking about just how frequent like he's not scared to take shots, like he is someone that is going to take step back shots. He's going to take a lot of jump shots, and he's confident that not only is he going to be a good shooter, but eventually he's going to develop into a very good shooter. So there's optimism that if he can at least be at like, let's say, thirty five percent, that's going to open up the other aspects of his offensive game. But the outside shot is probably going to be kind of the make or break aspect of his game when it comes to year one impact. Yeah, And I don't know if it makes it easier because there are some guys where feels like they might be better with the ball in their hands of like working on their jump shot. But if he's having the ball in his hand less than he would have at at Auburn, you feel like that would probably almost at least help him a little bit because he shot like sixteen percent on two point jumpers last year, I believe off the dribble there, So like that's just I don't know if you want to overburn him. But my question is, like this seems so they're clearly like the like they're about their youth. So are they going to give him like a longer leash this season to go through the motions? Is there a chance that, you know, you do have Dylan Windler, you have Jetty Osman, but he's like kind of their only true wing at the moment. Is their chance that maybe he even starts for most of this year. I don't think he starts to start the year. It's such a quick turnaround from the draft in JB. Beckerstaff really is preaching accountability. It's something we saw as soon as he took over last season where he was not afraid to bench Kevin Love or Tristan Thompson if they weren't performing well at the end of games, and did the same thing with Darius Garland and Colin Sexton. They're in a unique situation where their front corps players are experienced, but those guys are reliant on the young guys to produce for them, and I think there's going to be a lot of internal competition among the young players. So I think, Oh, Coro, just everything I've heard about his work ethic and that, I think he's going to be in the mix for real minutes. But to start the season, I can see either Jetty Osman or Dylan Windler kind of getting that start. Starting Nod Windler, even though he didn't play last year, he was around the team. He has more familiarity, he's practice with them more, so I think he's going to be in the mix there. But I do foresee okorl getting minutes because he just brings something that these other guys don't bring to the table. One of the things I missed during this long hiatus was your Twitter feed updates on Colin Sexton's season splits. You've been you've been driving that badway, and I feel like I've seen them retweeted into my feet a little bit more of the past couple of weeks. I don't know if that's you or other people, But is he like overlooked at this point because there's we can focus on what he like still needs to work on. But the dude scored over twenty points per game on real efficiency last year, better than fifty percent on two's over thirty eight percent or right exactly at thirty eight percent on threes. And I'd sent you the note it was just like only Chris Middleton, Brandon Ingram, Jalen Brown, and Damian Lillard were the other players to just match those splits. And so no, I'm not saying he is those guys, but like, why, like it feels like there might be a building block there for the Cavs. Is there one? And why are people just nationally like so down on them? Is this just a mat like a matter of well, you don't watch the calves enough, or we're focusing too much on what he can't do, or maybe you don't trust him to create for himself off the dribble or obviously his passings just you know, closer to Jordan Clarkson than it's going to be to like a Donovan Mitchell at this point. Yeah. No, And I think there's a lot of valid criticisms there. I think when you see guys that are scoring on bad teams, a lot of times people will wonder if that's just empty stats, if it's empty calories, someone has to go get the points. And I think there's some of that with Colin Sexton. But at the same time, when you're talking about this kind of volume, it means something. He was the number one option on the team and the as you mentioned that, the split I love to mention is after the Jordan Clarkson trade because that was a vote of confidence both in Colin Sexton and Kevin Porter Junior that hey, you can handle more usage. And it was forty six games, so that's not an insignificant sample size where it's twenty three and a half points three point four US, forty nine percent from the floor, forty three percent from three, and a fifty nine true shooting percentage. For the year, he scored more points on higher efficiency than Jamal Murray last season, Like, I do think that there is potential there, but his playmaking, I don't think it's ever going to get beyond kind of combo guard levels. If he can be in that three to four range, I'm happy with that. He needs to recognize open guys. I don't think he can pass guys open. But as the season prest he was getting a little smarter at finding guys where it's going to come as own the defensive end, because that was one of the things that he was somewhat known for in Alabama. He has a six eight wings band. He has the length to make up for what he lacks in size, and that's why I do make a bit of a don in Mitchell competition because or comparison, because their numbers at that same age are very very similar. Obviously, Mitchell has taken two leaps since then, and there's I mean, it'd be silly to expect Sexon to do that, but if sex can commit himself to the defensive end, and especially with other guys able to kind of help out on offense this year, I do think that there is a potential building block there. I do think that the scoring is special and if you add defense to that you're going to live with combo guard passing because there's going to be other guys that can provide that for you, right, I mean, if he's not, if you don't view him as like the floor general. Let's say you had a twenty percent of hist rate post All Star break and so like that's for a combo guard. That's fine, which really you mentioned not eventual. What's funny is that both of these guys were like, yeah, they were no over their offense coming out of college, but their defense was touted, and they've just both so far outstripped anything they've done defensively at the NBA level, Like yeah, on offense, It's just it's funny. Twenty twenty has already reshaped how we work and it's almost over. Businesses across the globe are challenged to be their most efficient, which means every hire is critical. Well Indeed is here to help. Unlike other sites. 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What's more like, what are you more hopeful for on him improving upon like this season or even long term where it's you can mention the passing, but there's also the tendency where it feels like his game like stalls out before the rim and then there still is a waste to go on, Like I think what's really good about him is he can really stroke it on those like catch and shoot threes. But do you trust him to up the volume or take more like create for himself and hit a higher clip of his off the dribble jumpers. And so just from those three elements, like what are you more optimistic about his improving just moving aside from obviously what you just talked about defensively, Yeah, I'm optimistic about him getting to the rim. He has added just a ridiculous amount of muscle this year. Like he he looks like a freaking tank, Like he's kind of got that that Marcus smart work ethic and that was a big thing that the Cavs were attracted to him by. And the same thing with Isaac Coral. The cash shooting staff. I feel confident is jumper at this point. It's part of the reason why I really like the Coral fit because the Cavs have turned around. The jump shot of Colin Sexton, Jenny Osman, Larry NaN's junior got even Tristan Thompson was thinking threes. Although I won't rush to use him as an example, but they got good player development staff, and I think Sexton's ability to get to the rim draw more fouls that really going You're going to see more of that this season basketball Index. I think they had sex and in the eighty fifth percentile finishing at the rim, which he was getting blocked a lot of and started to make some adjustments and he really wanted to work on his finishing. So if he's getting to the rim drawing foules, I think his efficiency is going to go up. But more than anything, I really want to see the growth on the defensive end because I think that's going to be the difference maker. And people will mention Portland as a comp for the Garland Sex and backcourt. I really like to think of it more as the Conley Mitchell comp because Mitchell is a good comparison for Sex and physically like their boat six one big wingspan, they were known for similar things. And then numbers are so similar that Okay, you're probably not going to be the score Mitchell is, but you can be a very good score. And if you're contributing on the defensive end, hey we got something there that it makes it a whole lot easier to give you serious minutes if we're trying to win. Kevin Porter Jr. I think came became like I don't want to say, like the most interesting. But people seemed more and more intrigued in him as the year went on, where like there was talk it felt like could he be the best of like the three main prospects that were there of Garland, Sexton and KP KPJ absolutely unleashed before his knee injury under Bickerstaff. I think when I was looking for the thing, he shot like thirty five or thirty six percent off the dribble threees during that time, which is just huge to have that level of creation. What is like is one it does he of the three players? Does he have the highest ceiling as like a self creator off the dribble and just like what is once he's like, what is the role for him this season that you envisioned this team trying to carve out for him? Yeah? So I think he does have the highest oup side. The Calves have communicated that they believe that he's the highest upside player that they have. He's probably the lowest floor as well. There are obviously off the court concerns by I'm not sure if you're familiar, but crashed his vehicle, fell asleep at the wheel, and had a gun in the in the vehicle. Also had an assault situation as well, although there were no charges pressed. But knowing that and knowing the Calves are really emphasizing trying to develop culture and accountability. I think he's going to have a bit of a road to kind of work his way back into the trust of the coaching staff coming into this season. What they anticipate doing with him is having him come off the bench and kind of being that, Okay, see Harden, get more reps initiating the offense from the bench, right, because you're not going to get those same type of looks if you're in the starting five, just by the nature of this team. So hey, you're going to get more looks off the bench here, You're going to get a run a bit of the offense. Maybe you're playing alongside Dante Exim who can help assist you there as well. So I do still expect that he's going to have a good season. He had a good offseason before those issues came up. But it's going to be a bit of a journey for him to try to earn back the trust of the coaching staff and and earn those minutes because it's hard to not be a little disappointed with the way that this off season went. Yeah, and they didn't even like he was with the team. I mean, he wasn't with the team, but then all of a sudden he was, but nothing's actually been resolved, and it's like that was sort of weird where it was like what went into that decision making, like why was he like not there? Then now all the is he was. He was there, but he wasn't practicing. So I think that they've been handling things internally with him. I think there's probably some guidance that the team is providing him. I mean, you look at kind of the history of this team and there's the unfortunate situation with Delonte West, and obviously these aren't apples to apple situations, but I think the organization more than being upset and looking to punish, I think they also want to make sure that he does have the support structure and the guidance and look after him. So I wouldn't be surprised, you know, that was part of kind of the rationale that he's around the team, but they're they're trying to get him, bring him back in the right way, and make sure that those support structures are in place. So I think that's probably more of it than him being missing, Like James Harden was right for him, are they going to be like more inclined to maybe keep him within the backcourt rotation now that you have Windler and Okor and even Jetty Osman available, or do you think that they still view what he's able to do on defense where it did seem like he held up from the games that I watched, like again against like certain actual sized wings. Is he still gonna be playing plenty of three this year once he's fully reintegrated. Yeah, I mean he was listed at six four last season. They have measured him. He's over six six now, so he's firmly a wing. But I still think they view him long term as a shooting guard. He did play I think like seventy five percent of his minutes last year at small forward, but that was kind of out of necessity. So I do see them using him in the kind of backcourt rotation. Even though Garland and Sexton are going to be starting together, I do see them kind of staggering minutes. Once JB. Bickerstaff took over, those guys like Garland and Sexton played like ten minutes together and then they each played fifteen minutes with Kevin Porter Junior, each without the other on the floor, and I kind of anticipate more of that. I think they're going to try to play around with a lot of different combinations to see what works. When it comes to those young guys. I really think the approach they're going to have is, you, guys are getting your twenty seven minutes a night, but if you want to get more than that, you're going to have to at least attempt to do the right things. Not necessarily play well, but take the right shots, make the right passes, contribute on the defensive end. Otherwise you're not going to close. And that was the mentality JB. Bickerstaff had when he took over, and that from everything we've heard, they're going to continue with that this season. Darius Garland is the player pertly our prospect personally on this rosis. I have like sub zero feel four at the moment, and so I think you look at his three point shooting, like relative to the volume, I think that's fantastic, like as a rookie, But like, what do you envision for the rest of his game? What are you looking for from him this year? Did it look like the game slowed down for him at all? Like as the season we're on, Like, what is the what is the skinny on Darius Garlands? Yeah, you look at the last two months and he was averaging about fourteen and five. I think it's important to note that he was not healthy last season, like at all. He had two surgeries in the off season. He wasn't there for training camp. He came midway through preseason. Hey, he didn't have his condition. He was still in like a high schooler's body. He just wasn't right and the confidence wasn't there. The thing that impressed me was he is someone that can actually pass guys open, like he made good reads. He has good feel for the game. But with how tentative he was, it really made things difficult. Like fourteen five is nice, but like you're looking at kind of DJ Augustine numbers at that point, I think there's a lot of optimism. He was kind of the standout star in the mini camp bubble that they had. Larry nast Junior said he was the best player there, like flat out was the best out here there. And he's apparently only got better. He's put on seventeen pounds of muscle, not the cliche fifteen. He put on an extra two. He went the extra mile Dan, But like what I foresee is okay. Now that he's healthy. It kind of reminds me of Jamal Murray's rookie season in Denver where he had the abdominal issue and he wasn't quite right. These are guys that, like they're shooters, we know they can shoot. Their jumper is so pretty that thing's going to go in if he's a sort of and he's able to actually create that offense for himself. I don't think it's unrealistic to see that fourteen and five go to seventeen and seven. Like, I think he can create more opportunities for other guys once he becomes a threat. So I'm really really confident in Garland coming into this season. I personally think that he's a better prospect than Sexton, although at this point Sexton, after what he's actually accomplished an NBA, that that floor is pretty high. Like, I don't think his worst case scenario at this point is six man. And I mean for Garland, it feels like like he should have the cleanest opportunity just of the three, because like he is the only one of the three that you could envision being like that actual floor general and the Calves don't. I was gonna say, who else is going to challenge him for that spot, like it's not excellent, it's not Delhi. Yeah, like so if you're going with those like four. Oh, what's also weird about Garland two is so we played we played four or five games in college before it's tormanis Kiss. So like he has that long layoff and then isn't in training camp with the Calves like into his rookie season. Then he has his other huge layoff now and it's an abbreviated training camp. So it's great that he's healthy and stuff like, that's a rough start, and it's other players are going through the same, but like that's the rough start to the career where he hasn't had like a regular offseason to just work at his game under normal circumstances. Like, yeah, he was, he's healthy this offseason and apparently like sept put on seventeen pounds of muscle, but like he couldn't do that in a regular setting obviously just because of the play. So yeah, he's still it's going to take some time for him to get back to game speed. And I'm grateful looking at the schedule that there aren't a whole lot of other teams that they're playing right away that went through the bubble because those teams are going to be rusty too. But he's got to figure out, Hey, now that I'm more explosive, it's going to take a little while for me to calm myself down to see the game a little bit slower and kind of manage the team because that's what his responsibility is going to be. So it is going to be interesting. But I do think that he's well set up at this point to kind of change the perception of what he is, because I think he really kind of flew under the radar after being pretty highly doubted coming into the draft. My clickbait question of the podcast is, so, having looked at these four prospects, now, like how would you rank them, like looking at their long term outlooks or even just importance to the team going forward. Yeah, So I think if I can cheat on this question a little bit, I want to do kind of floor and upside because I think for I'm a floor standpoint, I think Sexton is probably the highest floor on the team. Okoro, I'd go second, Garland and then Kevin Porter Junior upside probably KPJ and Ocoro first just because Wings have a higher impact in today's NBA, and then Garland and Sexton after that. So I'm I'm high on Sex and I'm high on this group. It's actually kind of funny because I'm a big fan of the guys that they've picked. The only one I wasn't a fan of was Sex. I hated the pick. I was really really against it. And just over the last two years, he's really kind of swung me. And I'm like, especially when he started scoring at that level, I was like, Okay, this is actually something that's noteworthy end which I should probably recalibrate my thinking a little bit. Yeah, I'll be I'd be interested to see if he has like another season like he just did. He's extension eligibly after this year. I'd just be curious. Yeah, I'm just to see what the number is, just because like those like if you're gonna shoot thirty eight percent from three and score twenty points a game, like you're going to get paid, Like it doesn't matter like what you're you know, I viewed on and just a lexicon of like player rankings or anything like you're just going to get paid. Yeah. Yeah, it's how he performs on defensive and is basically going to determine how nauseous I am at the deal. But he's going to get paid. Then. The nice thing about him, and this is part of the draft philosophy that the caz have had, is Kobe Altman's very involved with Team USA and a lot of these guys. Kind of the tie breaking decision maker was, Hey, is this guy going to be someone that's going to be happy in Cleveland? Is this guy a hard worker? Sexton had a lot of praises, one of the hardest workers they've seen in the program. Same with bro Darius Garland. They they had a lot of intel on him because he went through Team USA, and these guys have relationships with each other. Garland and KBJ are close friends. Sexton and Agrel are close friends. Go Garland's close with everyone on the team. A nice thing about doing that is one, you have more intel, you have a better sense of who they are as prospects through Team USA. The other part is if you start hitting on like two or three of these picks, they're already friends with each other. They don't have to leave Cleveland. A team up is kind of Yeah, it's kind of a nice position to be in, and it makes an internal competition a little easier to have as well, because these guys are pushing each other and they're all kind of invested in each other's success while still kind of maintaining that competitive edge. The weight is finally over. Football is back. You might not be at a game this year, but you can still be in on the action at bet online. That Online is going the extra mile to make sure you can get it on every possible chance to win this season, from game spreads and totals to team laer in coaching props. That Online gives you more options to wager on than anywhere else. You can get in on their season opening bonuses today and start off wagering on wins, Vision odds, championship futures all day every day. Head to bet online today and take advantage of all the great sign up bonuses. Don't forget to use promo code blue wire all one word at bet online dot ag. That's blue wire all one word bet online. You're online sports book experts. I will say, going back to that twenty eighteen draft, I remember being happy the Calves took him because I wanted the Knicks to take mcail Bridges or Shay Gil just Alexander. They took neither of them, so it doesn't really matter, and the Calves ended up getting the better player. But that was I was just so unbelievably low on Sexton, and then just last year just completely flipped me on him, like just that anyone but sex and I tweeted anyone but Sexton in brackets, it's going to be Sexton. On that draft night, I really wanted Shay. I know he didn't want to work out for the cast and said he wouldn't play there. I still thought you should take him because hey, Steph Curry said that to the Warriors and it kind of worked out as well. So these guys don't exactly have a lot of control. And I mean he forced his way to La and then he went to Okay. See, so you the illusion of control, right, it's all you really have. That's why I sort of laughed when this is only ten gentually related. But like teams weren't apparently picking Tyrese Haliburton because he wanted to go to the Kings. And I spoke with Greg Whizzinger on The King's podcast about this. If I were the Kings, I would question his decision making if that's what he was trying to do. Oh, I want to play for you, so I would have taken I would have taken him in anyway. So but that is totally off topic here. Dylan Windler actually going to play this year after coming back from that fracture in his left leg. Is what can we expect from him? Were they going to bring him along super slowly? And what part of his game really interests you the most relative to the fit with the rest of this roster, you can expect a rich Man's Duncan Robinson. I think I thought it was you, and I can't remember when he was in Summer League. I saw someone call him like Caucasian Jimmy Butler, and I couldn't remember who it wasn't. I left at that and now it definitely wasn't me. That's funny, though, Oh man, I don't think they're going to bring him along too slowly, like maybe some of the minutes are managed. But he is firmly in competition for the starting spot right now. They're they're crazy high on him. He can shoot the living hell out of the ball, probably the best shooter on the team. And when you can do that, you're going to get minutes because this is a guy six seven, really long wingspan, left handed shooter with a high release point, can create his own shot. They're they're going to find minutes for him, and they seem to be pretty happy with kind of his positional defense as well. And he's an older player twenty four years old, so there is that that aspect of the Duncan Robinson camp where he's coming in a little bit later in his career, but there'll be allowed to dribble, right, yeah, yeah. JB. Bickerstaff did mention that he might play some small ball four with Larry Nance at the five as well. I think they're going to experiment with freakishly big lineups where you have Love Drummond and Larry Nance at the three, and I think you're going to have times where it's oh, Coral Windler, Kevin Porter Junior and maybe Garland with Nance. So I think he's going to play kind of primarily as a three two four, but there's some he's someone that they feel confident they can move them around in the lineup, and they're they're really I on him, like I'm still not convinced he actually exists. So I'm looking forward to tomorrow. A bit of a running joke in cast twitter that this guy doesn't exist. But we'll see, we'll see that the myth of Windler is all that it's cracked up to be. I hope they play the super big lineups and the super small line is back to back just to like, you know, really emphasize like hockey shift hockey shifted up. And I mean they played that big lineup last year and somehow it worked destroy It was not I know it was a small samp size, but they just absolutely annihilated teams even in a small sample size. Like that's absurd. Yeah. And when we had Nance on the podcast, he's like, all right, yeah, like I shot tens of thousands of threes, Like it's he shot thirty five percent on a good volume last year, and he's confident he can kind of build upon it. He's added some strength, kind of blow the waist, and he's ready to kind of contribute in different ways. So this is, Uh, it's gonna be an interesting season for sure. So we're gonna see some then thought Maker or mccour however, mccour however he wants to pronounce. Is he gonna roll out at the two and they'll just go from the bags with a small why not. I'm going to be a little surprised if he makes the team. He is just on a training camp deal, and the Calves probably want to maintain a roster spot. They might do what they did with Alfonso mckinning, where it's just a series of non guaranteed deals. Bring him back, bring him kind of them, bring him back, kind of bring him back. But I think they want to maintain roster spot because in all likelihood they are going to be trading Andre Drummond at some point. They came close in the off season and they're they're going to try again the deadline because he's a big, big, expiring contract, and the Calves are more than willing to help someone clear up cap space if they'll get assets. So I think Drummond is an asset play and they want to maintain that roster flexibility because there's not a whole lot of one for one deals with Andre Drummond's contract. No, what is he twenty seven five or twenty eight, what does he at? He's high. I am surprised day in case he didn't resign in Detroit after they let Maker walk. He was just intent on buying him ahead of Christian Wood for so long, But so what does Jenny Osmond now? Like? What is his fit with the team long term? They did extend him, and he did shoot the ball well last year, but now I'm just looking at this roster. It's not that he doesn't make sense, but I'm like, does he really shouldn't be starting now? Right? Like? I feel like he should just be coming off the bench when you're looking at like all the other guys that are now on this team. Yeah, I mean, Jenny was extended. His contract reflects that of an eighth man, which is what he is. But unfortunately, for the last two years he's been their primary stopper on the perimeter, and I'll put that in an air quote. He's been overmatched and I'm excited to see him in kind of a more manageable role. But when you kind of look at this, You've got a lot of guys that are going to be playing perimeter minutes on this team, and they're going to have another lottery pick this year in all likelihood, and you look at this draft class and it's all wings. I wouldn't be surprised if Jetty was kind of tied to either Kevin Lover Andre Drummond in a trade to kind of up the value there in a return, But other than that, while he's here, I see it kind of a similar role to what Windler has of Okay, you'll play a little three, two four. We'll maybe play him a little bit more at the four because he is a bit stronger and has more experience, but I think he's going to be able to contribute. He's going to be in the mix first, starting at least at the start of the year, until or Okoro gets caught up on the playbook and is a little more comfortable. But long term, no, he's going to be a Asian player for this team. And yeah, I mean he's a great depth piece to have, and I think a lot of teams would be happy to have him come off the bench, including Cleveland, but it's the fit's getting a little tricky when you have so many kind of young mouths that you want to get as many reps as possible, and if they want to keep playing him at the three, it feels like coming off the bench is just the better fit for him. Memory doesn't have to go up as heavily against starting caliber wings. Which he's just not equipped no defense, no, no, no, poor guy. So the question that I delayed as long as I could, what's what's happening with the Kevin Love situation this year? Is this the season they actually move him in the intern? Regardless of what happens, do you see him being like more on board with the direction of the roster than he was last season because there some of the stuff I think a lot of Calves reporters pointed out was like being dramatized, but it did feel like there was a level of he just didn't want to be there at some point, or at least didn't want to be under you know, John b Line, like maybe that maybe that was the primary issue there. Yeah, I mean there was frustration with them. There's been tons of frustration over the last two years. I think poor Collin Sexton was and some of this was on him, but he was also nineteen year old player. I don't think no matter who they drafted, that Kevin Love is going to be happy because it's such a difference from going to the finals for four straight years. And I mentioned this earlier in the podcast, but you got veterans in the front court with Love Drummond and Nance, but those guys are reliant on the young guys to get them their touches, get them good looks, and they haven't been equipped to do that. And as the season progressed last year, whether it be the bayline factor, whether it be Sexton and Garland playing better, it did become more manageable for Kevin Love. But I think I think you're not going to see as many outbursts because there's just more talent there. It's going to be a more enjoyable experience for him. But I think both sides would prefer to move on. I think Love himself has acknowledged that he had bad moments last year. He had moments where he lost his patience, he didn't keep his composure as a leader, and he owned up to that to his credit. Like I think it's something that a lot of fans could emphasize with because it wasn't the easiest season. So hopefully there's going to be less of that. I think ultimately it's going to come down to whether or not there is a offer with some value. I think the most likely time that he gets moved his next offseason, because there's going to be teams that are going to strike out in free agency and they're going to be looking to make a move, and there's going to be one less year on that contract. And I mean, you saw Al Horford move and that contract is just as bad, if not worse, and the Kas are going to manage him as well. They're not going to play him in back to backs. I think they have the same strategy with Andre Drummond, and I think part of that mentality is, hey, we want to maintain their health for a trade. Last year at the deadline, the best offers that were out there were basically expiring contracts for love and they don't want to just move him to get off the money. They want to at least get some value in return. So once a team comes up with that kind of an offer where they either get a young rotation player that that's worth caring about to some extent or first round pick of some kind, they'll they'll hang on to him. Yeah. I mean, look, two years and sixty point two million is a lot different than three years ninety one point five on paper. Two So that should be easy to move. It's also tough because right now, like you, and this was the case last season, you don't look at any one team and identify them as being one Kevin Love away from like really entering the title discussion right now. I think a lot of that speaks to like just the direction of the NBA, where the stuff Kevin Love does is still super valuable. But if you play him at the four, like you need a very specific type of five. If you want to play him at the five, you need a very specific type of like a bunch of win defenders around him. So I think that makes it difficult. So if you had to peg between him and Andre Drummond, you would say that Drummonds the one that's more likely to be moved this season, going to get traded used not They discussed an extension with him to at least kind of get a sense, and credit to Evan Dammell at Forbes, he mentioned basically what the Cavs were offering overall was basically what Drummond was looking at over the course of a deal per year. So there was a massive, massive golf between what the Cavs thought he was worth and what he was expecting. So it's I mean, I think he's going to get moved. I think some team is going to see him a as a rental for a couple of months, and b as a way to clear up thirty million dollars in cap space for just a fantastic free agency class. Even if you honest isn't an in there, teams are going to want to kind of clear up that space. So I think there is going to be some market for Drummond, and I think ultimately it was an asset play for the Cats. I think they wanted I think they wanted to see what Drummond would look like for the final twenty years. They wanted to see what the guards would look like playing with a big like that, someone that they could use in the pick and roll a little more aggressively than Tristan Thompson. But then COVID cut those plans shorts. So I mean, when you give up Brandon Knight and John Henson for Andre Drummond, as long as you get a better return for Andre Drummond than you would have got for those two guys at the trade deadline last year, the move worked out in the end, because, I mean, the one thing about being a Cast fan is Dan Gilbert's willing to pay the money, so right, why not take this opportunity they just remember when that trade broke, and like it was broken without the details, and I didn't understand it. And then I was shocked at like that's what I knew. His value wasn't high, but they got for a second round pick and expirings. That's what it ended up being, right, Yeah, it was John Henson, Brandon Knight and a second round pick. And like earlier in that day, the conversation was, Okay, maybe then Knicks are going to give up Naila Keena for John Henson, like the discussion happened, but obviously the Knicks didn't want to go afford with that. But then all of a sudden it turned into Andre Drummond, which was surprising as hell, just as and aside, I would die for fright lookinga So I'm glad that he's I actually think he needs to be on a different love to have Frankie Smokes on the team. I was. I was really hoping that something would happen this summer. And so I guess what you're getting at those that the caves are willing to take back bad money, and that's where you know that trade has to pretend. The drumming trade specifically has a chance to be like even more worthwhile for them is they wouldn't have had those other guys that are contract now, and you have the salary magnet at the moment that if you're willing to take on long term money at a time where yeah, I would say, already twenty twenty one free agencies just looking less rosy when you have Lebron's already off the board, Pgs off the board, Yannest could be off the board. Teams are still gonna want there. There's other good players there. And so if your team, like Cleveland's actually willing to take on money and isn't concerned with cap space that summer, my guess is at some point and even it might just be a team that needs to save money because of like they're being just destroyed by the absence of revenue in the stands. At the moment, it feels like the Cavs could be set up. I don't know what they end up getting. It depends on how bad the contract is. But there are you know there, there are a few and not more than a few pretty Albert Rossy out there at the moment. Yeah, yeah, And they had talks for Gordon Hayward, for Andre Drummond. That was reported that they discussed that there was talk Nick Patum getting involved in that trade somehow with Andre Drummond, Like there were options out there, they weren't able to get one done yet, but I now kind of foresee them going into the deadline where, hey, now there's half half as much money on that contract, and now you can clear up some space. So, I mean, the the flaws of Dared Gilbert are pretty well publicized. But the difference between Cleveland and a team like Indiana is if Cleveland gets good stuff, they're going to pay. Like you know that Dan Gilbert's going to spend a lot of money even on this bad team. Like they got a lot of future picks because they were willing to take on so much bad money for expiring contracts. And now one of those picks turned into a twenty twenty two unprotected pick from the Milwaukee Bucks. Be honest, leaves hey, that pick gets interesting as hell, and that was just for George Hill. So the Cads have shown a willingness to take on money, and by all reports, they are still willing to take on bad money. So they'll they'll be in the mix for a lot of trades it would be funny if it ends with them trading Andre Drummond to get Gordon Hayward because Charlotte realizes they can't handle that contract they stretched Nick Betune for. So in the meantime, who plays a bigger role for this team? Is it going to be Nance or Drummond? I think that's an interesting question. So I'm gonna say Larry Nance. And the reason even though he's gonna be coming off the bench, he is now the vocal leader of this team. He's somebody that they really look up to. He's born and raised in Cleveland, loves the city, very active in the community, and I mean until one of the young guys kind of steps up, he's kind of the face of the franchise at this point. He is at least that vocal voice for the team, and with no Trisan Thompson, they need someone to step up. I think they learned from the stakes of the post decision rebuild by not having any adults in the room, and they've tried to emphasize that that was part of the rationale of extending Kevin Love after Lebron left. That was part of why they paid Larry Nance, and they wanted him to be that presence, and I think his versatility coming off the bench is really really valuable. You look at p i PM last year and Nance was the most impactful player on the team. The biggest thing for him was they stopped playing him at center, which I was screaming for. I was like, Hey, this guy's going to have more impact once he's playing at power four, which now it looks like he's going to be doing that primarily for the foreseeable future. And look, if he's gonna hit like thirty five percent of his threes, like that's just an absolutely on actual volume, that's a that's just a huge deal. Yeah, yeah, no, it's no kidding. And look, there's no such thing as like a real basically off of its player in this league. But as you kind of mentioned, since he's like this cultural touchstone for them now and see someone that they probably really wouldn't be too open. We've to say open, but like it feels like he someone teams will want to target at the trade deadline if they're small. They got so many offers for him in the off season, like every team was coming and calling him about Larry and Ants, and yeah, they're not eager to move them. They would kind of have to really be blown away to to move on from him, both for on and off court reasons. Dude, Damian Dotson or Dante Exon, will either of those guys have a shot at slash sticking with his team actual minutes this year. I like the Dots and pick up another guy who with some questionable on off court history, but he's like, he holds up positionally on defense and he can hit threes. I thought, just from a basket pure basketball perspective, I thought it was wild and Knicks didn't give him a qualifying offer and that the Cavs were able to scoop them up like they did. Yeah, that's a really nice depth piece like that can give you kind of that microwave bench score. That also plays some defense, Like everybody they brought in this off season plays defense, And I think there's you can read into that they've been historically bad on that end. They believe in the internal growth, but they want guys that can contribute on that end. And if you're going to hold Garland, Kevin Porter Jr. And all these other guys accountable and defensive end, you need to have a rotation player on the bench. That you can bench them for that's going to play defense. So I do think XIM and Dotson are going to beginning some minutes. I know they've been experimenting with reguard lineups with XM kind of playing at the three a little bit. The question with him is going to be healthy. If he's healthy, he's going to play. If he's not, Dotson's going to play more, I guess, and he's like when XM has been healthy, like he's been really good on defense, like the like the everyone's gonna remember him shotting down James Harden, but like he can guard actual wings. I don't know he's going to give back like a lot on offense just because there's not a lot he could do them. But if he's healthy, now of a sudden, the caws like have these I don't know if you want to call all of them high impact defenders, but just a bunch of guys who could defend, which is just something that like I don't think you could have said not buying into you're not buying into Axom's offensive upside? Do you do you not remember his Calves debut twenty eight points. I'm not buying into it. I'm I do not remember his Calv's debut. I forgot. I think when I was going to this outline, I like, remember he was on the Calves. That that is my Dante exim That's what that's the space he's occupying my brain right now. So I remember Jazz Twitter having a good laugh at him going to the Caves and immediately scoring twenty eight points. I think he had like four or four threes or something stupid like that too. It was pretty funny. Utah have like believed in him or he had something on GM Dennis Lindsay, because they just gave him like basically three years and thirty million when there could not have been a market for him, like even within that realm. And well, anytime the Jazz overpay a guard, he's going to Cleveland. That's the way that Clarkson's coming back, is what you're saying. Yes, exactly. So I know this will be matchup based, but if it's a close game, what do you envision being like their best or most used closing line. All right, I'm going to answer this mid season because I think it's going to take a coral sometime. But I do think that he's going to be in that lineup, I think it's going to be Garland, Sexton and Coral love Drama. I think that's probably their best look. Maybe they end up going with Kevin Port Junior there, but you look at kind of the on off numbers. KPJ and Sexton were just horrifically bad last year together like those SAT pairing just sucked. They could not generate offense together, even though both of them are talented at generating individual offense, whereas Garland and KAPJ. I think it's something to keep an eye on. But they were a net positive together when Sexton wasn't on the floor, which it's not easy to find net positive pairings on last year's Cavaliers, but I do. I'm a believer in both Garland and Sexton coming into the season. I think all all the buzz, everything we've heard is that those two are looking really good and are dedicating themselves on the defensive end. Because I don't know if you want to call Garland twice as good or if you want to call him half as bad. Probably half as bad as more accurate. But they defense at the IBM was half as bad as Sexons and his positional defense was good like he's got wings bad, he's he was in the right spots, he's just weighed like one hundred and seventy pounds, soaking wet, and just like wasn't physically there. So if he's playing decent positional defense and Sexons dedicated himself on that end, I can see what they bring on the offensive end being enough to earn them the kind of that closing role is there. And you kind of already mentioned when he talks about playing Larry Nance with four smalls. But is there like a quirky lineup. I'm aside from the three big combination that you're hoping they test out at any point this season, I think any quirky lineup has to include the Man of Mystery, Dylan Windler. So let's let's go with Nance and Windler as the two quote unquote bigs. Let's throw Ocoro Okoro Kevin Porter, you and you're in Garland. I think that's that's a fun, weird lineup. So Garland kpj Okorra, Windler and Nance. I think that could be a lot of fun. I would pick that same one, but have sexed in in for Garland. I don't know if you have enough time it would also be but yeah, yeah, I mean it's a whole lot of secondary playmakers at that point. Like even Larry Nance is a pretty good passer for a big man, so it'd be interesting to see how that works. But yeah, that's uh. Either of those line ups could be a lot of fun. Factoring in whatever you want, like whether it's big additions or subtractions. You know, does this does this end with them giving up every one we just talked about for James Harden? But whatever, factoring in whatever, what's a realistic win total for this team this year? So I'm hoping this season, like I think they're they're going to be around twenty five two, kind of high twenties wins. I am optimistic. I think it's going to fall off a little bit after the trade Drummond, just because you're probably going to become a worst team at that point, even though you could probably debate Andre Drummond's impact. But I think the goal for this season is, Okay, you're creating some accountability, you're developing better habits, you're learning how to win. I think this is a team that's going to be competitive in a lot of games, but not yet know how to close them out and hopefully, I mean, you do that and the young guys kind of iron out some of those bad habits. This year, you go into the draft with another high pick, maybe you get some watery luck. You have cap space, probably depending on what happens with Andre Drummond, but you'll at least have enough to kind of fill out of the roster, and who knows, maybe then you do what Atlanta did, only at the appropriate time in your rebuilding arc and make a run for the playoffs the following season. Like I think the goal for this year shouldn't be routed and wins. It should be Is this viewed as a young, up and coming team with prompts? Are the young guys establishing themselves as good young players and I can do that. I think the future can be decent enough for Cleveland. If I set the over under on the number of teams with a worse record in the East than the Calves this year at two point five, are you taking the over or the under? Oh my god, that's tough. I'm taking the over, but not by much. It makes me a little bit nervous. I think they're probably going to be a bottom five team in the league. But that's probably third worse in the East. In the East at this point, Yeah, as long as they're bottom seven, though, the lottery odds are flat enough that I'm comfortable with it so that that's kind of where I foresee them being. But hey, if they overachieve, like if they go out there and they're better than even my optimistic for dejections, I'm not going to be mad at that because, like you look at the final e in the last year's playoffs, and these are teams that built from the middle. They relied on player development, They didn't have a lot of high picks. I think right now there's more talent coming into the NBA than there's ever has been, and the emphasis has to be on player development culture. You're you're not going to get bailed out by high lottery picks. So I'm not in a position to complain because if you're winning, when you're relying on these young guys to initiate so much of the offense, that probably means one of them at least one of the right building block. It only makes sense to get mad if they overachieved because they've left like Kevin Porter, Junior, Colin Sex, did Acoro and like they're not playing the young guys like that's when getting angry makes sense. But if it's the young guys who are overachieving, then there's not like you should add that's actually dropping thirty and twenty loves playing like you did in Minnesota and they traded for Chris Paul and that's why they're winning. I'd be a little bit upset, But if it's the young guys, I'm going to be okay with that. Anything I didn't ask you that you want to cover anything that's just maybe naturally underrecognized about the squad. Did you have any strong soon maker takes that you needed to get off right now that you didn't already get off before. No, I'm just going to go back to that word accountability because I mean, we were laughing about it when we did our podcast with Larry Nance, Like. It came up a million times because that's what they're trying to drill into people's heads. And I think I would be crazy. I mean I am crazy, but I'd be crazy if I didn't understand that it's going to take, even among cast fans, it's going to take actually showing that for people to buy in like this team needs to create a positive identity that isn't tied to Lebron James. I think that they've done the right decision making, Like the Acoral pick was really encouraging because you had the guy that might have sold tickets that played in Ohio, in Obi Toppin. You had Dan Gilbert's favorite player in the draft, apparently in Denny of Dia, and they went with kind of the strong culture fit, the guy that has a crazy work ethic that Kolby Altman knew from Team USA. They're doing the right things. Just because you have the right process doesn't mean it's going to work out. Some of these guys are going to bust and all likely, but whether or not they can act. She kind of turned the perception that's franchise around. It's going to be really really interesting to me. And it's interesting too because I mean it's tied to the whole identity of the city, Like the city has been experiencing a boom there. They're like, I I went there last year with my wife. She had never been. She isn't online, so she doesn't even know that Cleveland isn't supposed to be a nice place and she's not online that sounds like a keeper. Yeah, yeah, it's it's great. I mean she's only online on YouTube, so that there's not a whole lot of Cleveland references there outside of the Cleveland Tourism video. But it's it's an interesting place to be because you're not yet at the place where you have legitimate expectations, but there aren't some expectations because you have so much young talents. So I think it's going to be interesting to see whether or not they can make some headway when it comes to turning around the perception of this franchise, and there's I guess there's just a matter of like they still do need to kind of find their blue chip cornerstone, Like maybe it's Context and maybe it's Garland, maybe it's Kempordre. I think they have an of talent. Yeah yeah, there you go, Like because they haven't, these held to look interesting if rings work out and they get the lottery luck, because I think people forget when they won the Andrew Wiggins lottery, they won like thirty five games and they went five hundred after the Buyingham trade. Like I would love for one of those seasons where you have that late boom and then you get the lottery luck they've they've kind of got the I know they're the last team that can ever complain about lottery luck, but they've got the ship and stick the last few years with the nuance. So it be nice to see a little bit of basketball karma rewarded because you had kid to this mix. If these guys are are fun and look out the challenge for them, because it does feel like just from Afar that they've done at least nothing has been malpractice at this point. But you don't want to get to a point where you don't feel like you've had to stomach a lot of losses and yet you still don't have that blue chip cornerstone. And if they don't get that next year's draft, like say they slide down, like if they have like eight or nine and that might be considered blue chip in this draft, everyone's like over the moon about it. But if they don't have that player, like, that's where you worry about them. Short of sort circuiting what's happening now in favor of making the win now play that sets them back without really doing anything meaningful for their needle. Yeah, yeah, they haven't done that kind of typical Caves win now move, and I mean you'd really hope that someone emergence that you're like, hey, this is a blue chip guy, like he came internally and holy crap, like they just made the leap this season. That would be ideal. But I mean, in all likelihood, all you can really do is like focus on player development and maybe you consolidate the players you have, Like you might not have a blue chip, but maybe you have an All Star and another promising starter that you can consolidate for a young blue chip prospect. So I think, especially with the new lottery odds, all you can really focus on is player development these days. Justin, this was great. Thank you for giving me so much of your time. If you guys are not following Justin on Twitter, he's at Cavsnada, that's at a V S A N A DA. He is the co host of the Chase Down pod and he also writes gambling things at bodog Canada. Justin, thanks again for coming on and rest assured I'll be pestering you again in the future, and it probably will be in fewer than two years, I believe. Hopefully, hopefully the Cows can get relevant enough for you to invite me back. Oh, always appreciate you having me on. Man Paul, thank you so much for coming back on the Hardwood Knox podcast. How are you doing. I'm doing well, yourself, I am doing well. I can't believe that the league is starting. But I also because as we're recording this, preseason basketballs is happening. I can't bring myself to get excited about preseason basketball, but it does mean the season is near and it's starting later. But the season also just ended. Time is nothing and everything at once. I'm just I'm tripped up all over the place. But I'm excited, obviously with everything that happened over the offseason to watch some more meaningful basketball. Yeah. I actually just put on the game for the first time, and it's you know, I see here a quarter and Rockets are black thirty points. So well, what I am interested interested in seeing right now in the preseason is just kind of what the arenas look like, you know, because right now a lot of the teams don't have any fans, so just kind of seeing the different layouts and like I see hear the Bulls game. They haven't covered the seeding with like some sort of tarps. Yeah, I was wondering if they could do what they did, like set up something similar in the bubble, just to give shooters better site lines. They'll have them like organically without fans there, but I heard a lot of players talking about like how nice that just black backdrop was, And so if you're not gonna have fans and arenas, like, can you technically just set those up behind the basket, Like yeah, So that'll be interesting to watch you, especially like when the Spurs at play Saturday. I'm interested to see what it looks like. Speaking of the Spurs, their off season was, I would call it mostly uneventful, like they you know, touch ups. They added Devin Vasselle, they have Trey Jones, they resigned Yacola Peartle that you banks is back just based off what they did, how they're not only was there not any major new additions, but just no major changes at all. It does feel like they're going into this season to strike a balance of Hey, we have young players that we want to groom and develop, but like we also have these veterans, so we're going to try and stay in the playoff hunt. Is that an accurate snapshot of their direction? Them trying to stat straddle both of those lines. Yeah, you did a really good description there of kind of describing that's exactly where they're at. You know, they weren't gonna make any you know, drastic changes this offseason. The list of players made those decisions, So that would have been like Yaka maybe getting a big offer from another team that made the Spurs really think about matching or maybe about Mardrozen you know, opting out of his player option and instead of becoming an understixi fre age. Well, since the players actually decided to get to return, it made it easier for it for the for the management and the team to make sure that they you know, they do stay competitive this season trying to get into the playoffs. Uh, you know, this new format is going to help them out where they basically have to stay within tenth at worst for themselves. And then you know they have they kind of straddled that line all year where they were like coach Pop wants to give a lot of the young guys some more minutes like we saw there in the bubble back in July and August, while also staying competitive and really shooting for the playoffs. And they're thinking that their team is going to get better because they are bringing back, you know, Trey Lyles and LaMarcus alter To, two pieces that were integral to them, uh, you know before the pandemic happened last season. So so they are kind of playing those that both both of those lines, I would say, And they really have a choice you know, during during the season. I know we're gonna get into some of this later on in the end of the episode, but they have those choices of like, you know, they can easily just punt the season away if they need to at any time, or they continue to try to basically get into that, you know, get into a playoff spot throughout the year. And and the main thing from what I what I would take away in terms of like they're you know, they're very quiet offseason is the fact that they set themselves up nicely for next offseason when they are gonna have some max cap space. So I think that's why we didn't see any drastic changes with them, because again, they don't want to ruin that cap spate that that that that amount of open cap space that should be there for them next offseason. Yeah, that's also why it's like kind of okay, like because sometimes straddling two lines can be dangerous, but like they're they're going to reach like an organic reset point, whatever that reset point might entail when they have they have four huge expiring contracts coming off the books as of right now, and Audrey's the Rows and Mills and Rooty Gay, So like it does make some sense there. I am interested to see if the twenty twenty one free agency class keeps getting worse though with all these extensions. Does it get harder though? So like in the bubble, you don't have LaMarcus Aldridge, you didn't have Trey Lyles, didn't they They basically they told Patty Mills he wasn't going to play. Does it get harder now than to integrate the youngsters? Yeah? I mean the preseason they're gonna be okay because actually they're dealing with some injuries to some of their core players. So like Kelton Johnson won't be there in the preseason, Derek White's gonna miss So those are two pieces who will be there, you know, when their season really starts. So so it's gonna be some sort of like slow integration in terms of getting adding two guys who who were part of the team before the pandemic. And like I said, in Aldrogen and Trey Lyles, while you know, they saw kel to make a leap there in the offseason, they saw Lonnie Walker Iman in the bubble, they saw Lonnie Walker, they saw Derek White. All these young guys really made a lot of growth there in the bubble. And they want to keep that format, that kind of pace that's not really centered around a half course style offense, a lot of mittering stuff. It's more, you know, more attacking the rim kind of things. I know that you know, we like to say it's more of a spread out type offense, but if it's really not, they don't take that many threes with this system, but they're at least spreading it out the offense and they're just really attacking the rim, getting to the free throw line, getting inside the paint, and then being more versatile on defense. So so it is going to be interesting to see what these lineups look like. You know, I think that even just trying to I could the other Like I was writing a piece thought recently and I was trying to figure out the starting lineup, and I came to the conclusion that I think that Derek Dejon, Tay Damar and LaMarcus will for sure be the fourth starter, So then you're kind of wondering, you know, how do they go with the fifth starters? Is a yaka in a traditionalist lineup? Or is it maybe like Lonnie Walker County and Johnson to keep it small and you know, you know, more versatile. So that's why it's going to be a really interesting team to watch, especially, like I said, with Alders, because he does like to go into the post right now, him, him and coach Pop and all the players, they're saying the right things. They're saying that you know, he's popping out to three yaka Peartle. Just yesterday he had said, uh in his interview that that you know, it's actually tough to guard Alters now because he's he's picking him popping into three so much that it pulls him away from the rim. And it's hard to play a defense against Alders this way. So we'll see. Like I said, you know, I really got to see it to believe it, because I know alder j increases his attempts from three last year after like January. But again, you know, is it a really natural thing for him to actually picking pop consistently from three. Is it natural for him now to actually give up a lot of that post of offense that he really likes to go to. Yeah, I feel like you can almost pinpoint the exact game where all Dridge's shot selection just changed, like because the increase in three point volume for him and sort of the team at large, Like it was pretty stark at one point last season, and you would kind of mention this already, like about the speed at which they were playing in the bubble, per and predictable. They were fourth in average possession time. I don't even the bubble feels like somehow eight years ago, so I don't even remember that they were playing that fast. Do you think that's gonna be I don't think that you're gonna if you're gonna have all Dridge on the court for a bunch, I don't know that you could commit to playing at at a similar speed now. But are they going to be like committed though getting out in transition more? Maybe if it's even a matter of they're just trying to be more optimistic on live balls as opposed to, you know, just indounding the ball and really trying to go wire to wire from the jump. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I mean, based on again, all we have right now is what they're seeing in the interviews of interviews the players. You know, we're not getting a lot of video out of those out of those practices, those close practices, so we don't really know how they're actually you know, setting up line ups and things like that, and how they're pushing the pace. But again, from what the players are saying and what Coach Pop is said, is yes, they do want to be way more energetic. They want to get out on the on the braake a lot more, really defend first and then get out and kind of just almost like read and react, you know, not really have a lot. One of the things that a lot of the players there was like four players who really who really harped on this and their interviews these past two weeks, is that they really said that the biggest difference that they saw it wasn't it wasn't necessarily the pace, even though you know, if it felt like they were playing faster, It was the fact that Coach Pop really really let them kind of he didn't he didn't force them to run a lot of half court sets. He let them kind of just read and react, like I said, just kind of attack the defense wherever they felt like the weakest point was and quickly get to the rim or try to get to the freedow line. And that was something a lot of the players said that normally under Pop, you know, it's tough because he's kind of he's kind of the game manager where he wants a lot more half court offense. He wants you to be calling plays NonStop. And so because of that, you know, they really got to just kind of pick apart and play a lot more pick and roll and just he just could kind of drive in and then kick out kind of offense. And so that was really good for them, and I think that's where you see a lot of that, you know, the the the increase in pace, but then also the fact they're playing better defenders. Now you know, they don't have Marco Bellanell anymore, they don't have brain Forbes anymore. So a lot of their their players that where they had some some defensive issues that they have just a lot of long, young wing players. So those players are going to defend well, get the rebounds. And then of course that they're all a lot of the younger ones are going to get out like Lonnie Walker, Kellten Johnson. They're just gonna get out on the break, and so it's easier to feed them. So I think, yeah, that's definitely something you see from this team. They do tend to and I'm wondering if it's different because they see Mike They're going to be more invested in their youth, but they tend to bring their rookies along slowly. And then now I think you get into the point like the guys coming out of college, like Dev Bassel, they haven't played since like February, March whatever it is, and they haven't really had a training camp. Now it's gonna be a fake training camp basically when the season starts, do you think he gets a chance to play like an actual role on this team or do you expect it to follow? Even with Trey Jones as well, a similar trajectory to a lot of these other guys. Where Derek Wright I think was under like nine minutes per game in his rookie season, it was something similar with Lonnie Walker as well. Yeah, So you know one thing that's going to really help out Devin uh is that is that you know there are some early injuries in the preseason. So like, if he can really show up, show up and play really well in these few preseason games, uh, you know he really he really can make coach pop. You know, starts start to think, you know, when everybody gets healthy, you know, maybe I have him as a player in the in the wings, you know, waiting right now. I just based on their depth issues they're gonna have right now because they have so many I mean, it's not a bad thing, but they have too many players right now, or some guys you have to sit out. You know, that's just the way it is. So I do see Devon and and Trey for sure if there is a G League season, you know, playing a little bit, a little bit early on in the first few months with the G League team. Uh. Like I said, the preseason, Devin might, you know, might get a lot of minutes. But as soon as Kelty gets healthy and as soon as Derek Whit gets healthy, those minutes will be gone. I think the battle you can see it. If I think, I don't. I don't see Trey at all getting any chance of actually cracking the rotation unless you know, somebody gets gets hurt. Unfortunately, so I think that the point guard spot is pretty short up with with John T. Murray and even Patty Mills. I know that you talked about earlier how Patty kind of sat out and was like an assistant coach in the bubble. Well, I don't you know that was good for him. You know, he said that he learned a lot and stuff like that from the coach's perspective. But it also I think it showed him that, you know, he's pretty much getting close to the end here in terms of, you know, is he gonna be that player who's gonna get ready to retire in a few more years, because he's actually been saying coming out of training camp that he wants to be the the Australian national team version of Patty knows a very much more aggressive player that we have never seen in San Antonio. He's more that team oriented kind of player. Uh. He does a lot of more spot up threes and kind of sets up the offense when now he's saying he must be a lot more aggressive off the bench here. So so I'm actually interested to see how Patty plays. So again, I think the point guard spot is kind of short of there's not there's not really any type of chance for Trey Joe'sph Crackett, but not Lonnie Uh Vassell has a chance because I think that there's gonna be that that just some minutes there between Lonnie Walker and Kelton Johnson kind of fighting for for who's gonna start and then who's gonna get the minutes off the bench, And if any of those players has like a slippage and they start to you know, they start to have, you know, some trouble, whether I think coach Pop could easily pull, you know, give give va Sell a chance, kind of like what he did last year when he started bringing in Calton slowly and how Lonnie started taking minutes away from Marco Belinelli just just like two years ago. Yeah, there's and yeah, you're kind of touched on this by naming all these guys, But there was a point, and it was even when Kauai was on the team where just felt like they had two rotation caliber, like actual true wings. And now they all of a sudden just have a bunch of these guys between six six and six nine. Has that been like a conscious team building decision or more just incidental because of talent that's been available in the draft. It sounds from from what you know on draft night Brian Wright to Spurs GM. He know, he you know, he spoke to us on zoom and and he said that, you know, that's kind of what they want now. They want shooting defense and linked that's so those are the season speed, defense length or something like that. He said, these these four specific words or three specific words, and so I think that's what they've been targeting into in the draft. And also you know, maybe you know next year in the office season with free agency, that's kind of what they want to continue to do. Is they just want versatility. They want they don't they no longer want to have those just those those players who can just play one certain position here. They want players like we saw on the bubble where they can play tomorrow at the four, where they can throw you know, Kelton Johnson at the four, and and you know, have like three players who are normally shooting guards or small forwards all in the same lineups together. So I think that's kind of what they were they're targeting. You know, that's kind of what they want. I was it was interesting ally was watching them. They have they have another young player coming up, but it's gonna be tough for him to get minutes in my opinion, named Lucas Amonti, who they took in the first round last year, and he didn't really get any minutes. But he's like a six ten big, but they play him like like like as if he's a three, like he's a small forward. And I was actually watching their warm up videos and he was in line with the players who normally played small forward with like DeRozan and Devin Vassell. So so I'm interested also with the player like him, who's longer, who's more of a tradition, who you would think of as a big at six ten, but he's actually playing more of the three right now, I guess, uh yeah, I mean you're about to say, because if theyre gonna use him at three, doesn't feel like there would be like any real minutes for him where at least in the front court. It's like, yeah, you have mainstays in Peardle, gay Lyles, Aldridge, but it does feel just a little bit more turbulent based on age, and then Trey Lyles is like an ultimate wildcard and Yaka Peardles never even averaged twenty minutes per game, So they were gonna use him like a four or five. It feels like he might be able to sneak in there, but to imagine him at the three, like, I just don't know where the minutes would come from at that point. Yeah. Same here, So Derek White, once he's fully reintegrated here he was well, he was molten in the bubble like so many of the other Spurs. You mentioned that you'd feelot he was gonna start once he's healthy. Do you still think that that's like the track that they're gonna take or might they still be a little bit protective I'll call it of the Murray White minutes. Yeah, I mean that that was the cool thing about I mean, watching the Spurs all year, that was the cool thing about the bubble was the fact that pop just right away through them both out there together. You know, that was the something I thought that would happen from Dave when I think honestly, like when we talked about this last year, I think I thought they were gonna start together at the time back in October, and it never happened. It was kind of frustrated because you know, after like twenty or thirty games, you know that it doesn't work, you know, the Brent Forbes, John Ty Murray combo. Anyway, So then to actually see them start and you saw that Derek really took a leap there in the bubble, especially with his increase in three point volume, and it just more of his aggressiveness. You know, he wasn't really waiting around, he was just kind of starting off. And then it was almost like he was the opener in the bubble, like to get the offense going, get get everybody going, get to the basket. And then it was more Derosan who was a closer. So that was a pretty good system from what I saw how it works. So I think that for sure he is a charter, you know, when he gets healthy. I think that you know, both of them, I think Pops now saw you know, he has the evidence the data to show that yes, even though yes there are going to be some spa spacing issues on offense, as long as they're playing quickly and you know they're they're they're both attacking the paint and just trying to get to the free throw line, I think that he's gonna continue to keep that that type of system with Derek and de Jonte. And then the thing about Derek too is, you know, it's very interesting. You were talking, we were talking about earlier about the free agent class, and he's actually gonna be one of the I want to say a premier, but he's gonna be one of the top free agents in that in that group if a lot more players continue to get extensions with their current teams, and he's a player who might also get off the free agent board because the Spurs have until December twenty one to extend him as well. Now we haven't heard any talks about an extension, but again, there could be an extension within the next two weeks here to keep Derek long term. That's one of the for me, at least, the offshoots off the Spurs playing their rookies so little is that I almost forget about their first season in the league. And so like each and every year at the beginning of the off season, when I'm going through the extension eligible candidates, I'm like, oh shit, Derek White has been in the league for three years. It hasn't only been too And look, if he plays even if the bubbles unsustainable, if he plays like that, like that, and he isn't signed to an extension, Like that's just the archetype of player, where yeah, he's probably a little bit I'm undersized if you're trying to look at him as a wing, but everything he does for the most part, like that's the type of player that you want. And so there'll be more cap space available next summer, and that just gets to he could become dangerously expensive from the Spurs' perspective if they don't sign him to an extension. The thing I was going to ask about him though, is what is his swing skill, Like the thing that still kind of separates him from being maybe more of a premier player. Right now, I automatically gravitate towards the off the dribble jumper, but I'm also like a thousand miles away, two thousand and eight thousand miles away from the situation. So I'm just curious as to what you think his swing skill is. Uh, you know, I would say it was that, but he actually, like, again, we don't know if it's sustainable, but he showed that in the bubble world. He was like he was taking a lot more you know, off the jumper threes, especially when defenses to go under on him, and that was the thing is like with no Brent Forbes there because he was hurt at the time, you know, I think they needed some sort of shooting and Derek was that player who was a little bit more aggressive. And I would say the main thing for him is is is just the aggressiveness, you know, long term and consistently. He doesn't play like a player who could put up twenty a night all the time. And that's I think that's the biggest issue, is that he has that capability. We've seen it in Spurged or or a different you know, every now and then, but it's it's just that it's it's like he's too I would say, like passive in a way, and he just kind of reads the game and you know, he's kind of getting his teammates involved, and he doesn't do that consistently, whereas in the Bubble we did see like like six games there where he was just like really aggressive, like I mentioned, like really getting like like fifteen twenty points a game pretty quickly, and it really just attack of the defense. And I think that that's for me, that's the biggest thing is just you know, does he ever want to become just more aggressive and saying, you know, I can get to the basket. Uh, you know, as many times as I can try to get there one of the I mean, they have a ton of players that are just interesting. But Lonnie Walker shot the three ball three ball, excuse me fairly well last year in the bubble, felt like he was finishing better closer to the basket, and then like a like showed just another layer of playmaking, And I think that would be important if you think Derek White is going to start like bringing, having more playmaking come off the bench is probably super important for them. What are the Spurs looking from him this season? Again? Once he's another guy I think who was who was banged up as well. Is this still a matter of you know, they'll give him heavy minutes if his shot selection and defensive consistency is better, or are there other things that play here? Is he's just gonna get a longer, more leeway from the jump here. Yeah, you know he did say, you know, we asked him, what are you working on? He said, he's actually been working on his dribbling. That's the main thing for him because he noticed that you know, he when he when he was when he would out to become the primary ballhandler, like when when when I would break down, that's where he had a little bit of trouble of reading an attacking the defense. So I think that's the main thing for them is as that they want him to work on, is you know, be ready to be a spot up shooter still, but when they kick out to you or or if we're in the half court, you know, and the offense is go anywhere and you need to run like a pick and roll or or maybe take someone on one on one, be a little bit more, you know, have more direction in where you're going with with your decision making. So I think that's the one thing that they want him to work on this coming season and necesthing to watch for is his decision making in the half court offense. Uh. And then you know defense, that's why he's out there. You know, he's he's a really he's a really versatile defender as well. Uh. And you know, and he kind of he always knows that, you know, if he's not playing defense, he's not going to be on the floor. And that's that coach Pop wants from him. And of course he's he's one of those players who gets up and down the court, who can if you get a defense reebund, he'll be out on the break ready to finish for the Spurs. And he actually made an interesting comparison of a player he wants to know emulate down the road, and that was Drew Holiday. He says that he worked out with Drew Holiday over the off season in LA and Los Angeles, and he says that you know, down the road, you know when when he starts, you know, reaching some of his like his his you know, his potential. He hopes that he can play be a player like Drew Holiday, who's a really good two way player who really you know, really harps on defense but then also has a really good sound game on offense. Uh, this is it's tangentially related. But is he gonna let his hair grow back out? Like there's too many there are too many awesome haircuts were killed over this offseason. Deanron Fox shaved his head. Ronnie Walker cut his hair. Is it gonna come back? I don't know, it doesn't look I actually just he spoke at the meet it today virtually and I just watched his zoom and he looks like he still has a shaved head. So I don't. I don't know if it's coming back. I loved his haircut, but anyway, I'm back to basketball stuff. So holy, Kelton Johnson in the bubble last year his vault kannic shooting was just one thing. But I just didn't realize that he could move so well defensively or that he had the defensive range that he did, where like they were using him as like sort of a quasi big at points. It seems like he held up pretty well on the glass. Two. I know you said he's not gonna be there. I'm probably to start definitely the preseason, but really the maybe even the regular season. But like, what's the Spurs hope for him this year? Is this is again? I know there'll be a bunch of guys competing for minutes. But if you're just from you looking at this, would you assume that he just is an instant part of the rotation or is he someone whose minutes could just be trimmed a little bit just given the the multitude of like bodies this person out have at those two through four spots. No, No, he's he's definitely gonna be in the rotation. I think I think for now, you of course, of course, probably off the bench, but I think he's gonna be one of those guys who's gonna put a lot of pressure on the starters to consistently, you know, play well. Uh. And again I do wonder who's gonna be that fifth starter, because if it's like Lonnie Walker, they start small, well, then I think Kelton has a chance during the season to kind of bump Lonnie and take that starting spot from him. So I really feel like Kelton's definitely a big part of their plans coming in. I'm we haven't actually spoken to him during training camp, but I'm actually interested to see what they actually asked him to work on in the off season, because like you said, I mean, defensively, he's there, he's got it, he's got it all. He's playing really well there. And that's why he was actually getting minutes before any other player, you know, any of the rookies was because again, when coach Popsy's at a player has a defensive potential, he immediately, you know it, start starts to get intrigued in and starts getting some minutes like we saw early on with Kawai a few years ago. And that's that's that's like a big reason why I like, you see Kelton at minutes and in year one, but you don't see a player like Lucas Somont who hasn't known for his defensive skill set. So yeah, so so, and so what keld In? Like again, like it was only small sample size eight games and the bubble, we shot very well from three. We'll see if that's actually real. That might be the understatement of the year. Yeah. So, so I wasn't putting a lot in the I I think I think of a fair you know, three point shooting average. You know, it should regress a little bit. But but the thing that was really interesting about him, honestly was the fact that like I actually, like, you know, I spent a lot of time making videos of watching him and what he did in the bubble, and he really did a great job of like on secondary action where like somebody drove into the paint that kicked out to him in the corner and he either drove in and got to the foul line, drove in and finished, or drove in and kicked out to his teammate. So that was just something that I saw a lot of growth from him, uh, you know, And I didn't watch him a lot in Austin before the pandemic, so so I don't know too too much of how well that was coming, that was growing that that part of his game. But again, that secondary action was something that I really really saw that was very well for him. And then also him pushing the pace, like when he would get a defensive rebound, he would cut, he would on his own, like just read the defense, and if he thought that he could beat a guy to the basket, he'd do that. He'd just go wrestling toward the basket and finish or get fouled. And so that's something that again I think that's why we saw that that a lot of growth from him. And I'm really interested again to see what do they want him to do. What did they have him work on in this offseason, because if they if they had him start working on some half court stuff like maybe running a little bit of pick and roll or you know, just just doing some sort of isolation things, and that that's very interesting because that means that long term, they do have some plans for him to develop offensively as well. He shot in the bubble. He shot thirteen of twenty one on drives. I was going back and looking at his shots like while he was there, and that was something that caught me off guards I looked it up. He even got to the foul line a bunch, like on those plays he turned two excuse me, he turned forty six drives into sixteen free throws. And then the other thing, does he have like a little bit more of a like a stop and pop game on the floor because he hit like I think he took nine pull ups in the bubble and he hit five of them. And so like that's just another little like could be added wrinkle in his game where it's yeah, he's probably just best suited as a compliment, but like he can it's not just going to be the stand still shooter. Like there's functional offensive play here. Yeah, I think. So, you know, he did a good job. Like you said that, you're just popping out a little bit there, you know, we like I mentioned, he a lot of it was where the defensive leam alone until like he you know, somebody would drive in and they kick out to him and there in the corner or on the wings until he hit it. But I you know, I just see any kind of pull up shots. But yeah, that's definitely something that that I think that that he's gonna girl with with is his shot. And you know, again, we'll see how real that that accuracy percentage was for him. Will we see him and DeMar derozen be used like kind of how they were where it felt like I think the Rosenlocks some time at the four in Disney, and then Johnson I believe was definitely there. You have Gay who could factor in there as well, and I think Lyles could tactually play there with with Aldridge. But is going like down I think you already mentioned it that they could downsize with the starters. Is is going that route like maybe a way of them helping juggle all the wings that they currently have in the rotation and if they're not inclined to start games or finished games that way, Like, who do you look at as the wing that's just going to suffer suffer most at least at the start of the season, aside from Devin of a Cell, who we've already you've already noted, it's just probably not gonna have a significant role period. Yeah, you know that that's an interesting question. I think that a lot of it's gonna have to do with matchups because I mean, I think that it would benefit the team to to play smaller, like we saw they're in the bubble with the Rose at the four, Caldon at the four times, but then you're gonna have a lot of unhappy players. You got, you got, you got, Yaka Peardle was not gonna get a lot of minutes, Rudy Gay, Trey Lyles, who else they just resigned drew you Banks. So like that's their problem is like they have a bunch of bigs or like fours and those. If they go small and it works going small, it's gonna be tough for a lot of those other players because they're gonna be sitting on the bench most nights for a long time. And so I really think it comes down to matchups. They play a team who's a lot quicker and who plays a lot more smaller matchups with then they'll match up with them and throw you know, Drowse at the four and Caldon at the four. If they're playing more and more teams who play more traditional with four and five players like usual, well then I think they'll stick with those traditional Yaka Peurdle, LaMarcus Alto type of front court options as far as you know, what would they close with again, I really think that they would. They would want to have either Keldon or Lonnie on the floor and one of those closing lineups along with you know, they're not going to bump Alderge out of the closing time, so then I think it's it's probably like their clothing line is probably gonna be a combo of Dijonte Uh, Derek White, Damar and LaMarcus and then then either Kelton or Lonnie is who I would see right now, or maybe like Rudy Gay, depending again on the matchup. This is I did not send this to you, But are we, like nationally collectively too low on DeMar de Rosen. I feel like I've always been like on the lower end of him, and there's there's something games are not similar, but like I feel like he needs to be in a very specific have a very specific set of players around him to be at his best, sort of like Russell Westbrook, and that he's just not the type of player at least right now, who's worth going to length to building around. Since the ceiling in that scenario isn't too high on the flip side, he's just averaged over twenty two points, shot fifty four percent inside the arc at a true shooting percentage over sixty. He's still like a really good player. And I'm only asked this question because I never thought that i'd see at least right now. Like you know, I know people don't like player rankings. I tend to like them, I guess because I'm an author of them at Bleacher Report. But like ESPM ranking Tyler Hero ahead of Drozan, like have we gone too far? Like off the Derosan bandwagon? Yeah, I think that it really you know, he like you said, like it's it's weird because like it's hard, because like there's some skills that he's just so good at that a lot of players just don't have those skills and that's his playmaking and is scoring it and but his type of scoring is what it is. And I think that that's what's not appealing to to a lot of fans or even like analysts, the fact that he doesn't shoot threes. He takes a lot of mid range. But I mean, he really does a great job of running pick and roll and setting up or going one on one and setting up his teammates, getting the free door line and taking some high percentage shots aside from you know, you just wish he cut down a lot of the mittering stuff. And then mean, of course, the big, the big factor though, is the fact that he just does not take three at all. He doesn't want to even get close to that, you know, so that that's that's I think that's a big part of it. And then of course, defensively, he still has his lapses and he and he's one of the players who who who has some trouble there defensively, So so yeah, I think that it's just it's just tough to rank him because again he has like these really elite skills, but then on the other flip side, there are these major issues, and I think that's why you always see him, you know, ranks so lowly and a lot of these player rankings. But you know, he's had he's had a he he did have a great season last year, and then especially in the bubble, he really he really did a good job of kind of not being that aggressive at the beginning, to be more of a being more of a playmaker and letting the young guys kind of like push the pace like you were mentioning earlier, and kind of just get attacking and get get comfortable within in the fourth quarter, when the game would slow down to the half court and they really needed a bucket, they would actually go to the rows and to create for the team or to try to get to the free to line, or you know, then use his middle eache jumper. So I think that if they can kind of adjust the offense that way, where like he becomes like the closer, like he wasn't the bubble, I think that's going to help them this season. And I'm wondering if there's I think we would need a larger sample size, but if there's something to the effect that if he is kind of used as this like super small four, the types of players that he might be guarding in those situations might make him less of a liability, because yeah, I think fours are glorified wings now. But he's like, he's pretty strong. He's like six six six seven, And so if you haven't matched up just against someone who's not super explosive and looking to put the ball on the floor as so many twos and threes are, like, maybe that's a way to either if you want to say hide him or just make sure that he's having fewer lapses in the half court specifically. Yeah, And I think I think also a big part of that was the lineups that they were playing in the bubble, like you know, like I said, more more versatile, younger defensive lineups. That helps them because you can, you can, you know, like you said, you can kind of switch his matchups up. You can, you can, you can hide him a little bit. And then you know, the problems before the pandemic, it was it was de Rosen and Bird forp so so so the defenses, I mean, the opposing offenses they would try to target either player, and so that was tough for the Spurts because you couldn't hide two two different defenders ups from trouble on defense. Well, now with just j Rosen, uh, you know, he's gonna be fine as long as he's not going against like Lebron or Kawhi Leonard. You know, if if the elite players aren't aren't the ones he has to guard, and he's gonna be okay if you can, like you mentioned, like you maybe put him like a spot up shooter or a player who kind of just you know, slashes and things like that. So so I think that yeah, it's gonna help them out as well defensively. I think that's why we saw their numbers improve a little bit on defense in the bubble. Yeah, the most I was looking this up while you were speaking. The most used the line up with him at the four last year was close to league average defensively, which is not like bad at all. Like that would be a win if you end up like giving up only one hundred and ten point five points per one hundred possessions with him at the four. Sorry for that the raiment, but the ESPN rankings had made me think of the de Rosan question, what should we watch for at the de Jean des Murray this year? I feel like you could pencil him in or like or predict that he'll make all defense and feel pretty confident about it if you wanted to. He still feels like, despite shooting a pretty good clip from three and upping his catch and shoot percentage, and he like had these moments where it looked like his in between games coming along is it, does he still feel sort of like a mystery box on offense. Yeah, that's that's the thing. I think I think that for sure what you just said, I think that this is the year he's gonna have a really good defensive year, especially the fact that he's gonna be around better defensive players. We saw, we saw what he was able to do just two years ago when he made it, when he made the second team All Defense, when he had better defenders around him. And I think we're gonna he's gonna get back to that. He's gonna have like like I mentioned, he's gonna be able to because he has better players who could kind of help out. He's gonna be able to gamble a little bit more and try to get some more steals and things like that and just rut passing lanes, uh and not worry about that, you know, the defender getting the offense, getting away do the other player and getting to the basket because he has better help defenders. But on offense, I just don't know exactly where his growth is coming. Like he's made slow growth, you know, especially with his mid rings jumper that's become pretty consistent now. That's like his go to bread and butter shot that he really relies on. Like you mentioned, his his wide open three percentage really did well last year when he but again it's when he was like literally wide open, and a lot of times, you know, the defense, you know those were just wide open shots. Defenses will leave him open on purpose. And and then there would be times to when he was wide up and he was still hesitated. You know, we're just watching him. So I'm not sure exactly where the where the growth is coming from. I would say, if anything, maybe attacking the rim a little bit more. That's one thing he doesn't do as much, and maybe you like to see him do a little bit more. Like I said, like if if he ever get if there's a pick and roll, a lot of times his main thing is to do is just to go to the mid range jumper. So I would say that, you know, he does a fair job of setting up the offense and doing and running the point. But I would say, let's I'm eager to see if he gets a little more aggressive and attacking the rim. This year, he did turn the ball over in transition a lot. I think in each of his last two healthy seasons. If I'm not mistaken, and if the Spurs are gonna look to be more opportunistic, there is that something that will concern you about maybe his decision making there or do you think just because he's shown that he can maybe get the Spurs into their sets and more of a half court style. That that's just something that'll that'll be fine in the end. I think it'll be okay in the end, because I think he's gonna be he dinna have better players, but quicker players out and out on the break with him when when they start, you know, getting out in transition. I think that because I I can't remember that being a huge issue in the bubble. Maybe that probably was though prior to so I think that's where a lot of that data might come from. So I think he'll be okay. I do agree with you that he had some turn on versues, specially in the half court at times as well, So so that's the thing to watch as well. You already talked about their closing lineup. Is there like a quirky lineup that you're just hoping they'll roll out at some point this season? Yeah, they're they're just like maybe like not like a traditional point like I mean really you know, I mean they kind of do it already with like like like Kelton, Lonnie Uh, Derek John. They could just get those four guys out there, I'd be pretty cool, and of course I think i'd be really awesome they can get Devin vselto in out there, so just say, like a bunch of wings that'll be fun to see, and who knows. It's like they're playing like, well, the Rockets used to be really small, but they're playing a team who plays like strictly just five players who are who are like under six ten. I think maybe there was a chance for that. I would love to see like their their four main wings, Derek White, Lonnie Walker, Kellen Johnson and Devin Vassel. I'd call him a main wing just looking at the future. And then I personally i'd be like, hey, let's let's throw Rudy Gay out at the five and can see what happened. But I'd be okay if it was all Dredge or even Jako Pernle in that situation, I want to see the four wings. I would even be if you wanted to get like super weird, just because John Murray has like that size of like a basically wing, like, let's go five wings, like hello, Kelton Johnson and Lonnie Walker, welcome to playing the four and the five. That might be like the anti Popovitch lineup. But they just have so many different wing combinations that intrigued me. It's just it's it's really amazing. It just feels like a couple of years ago like this just wasn't the case. Yeah for sure. And you know, and the thing is, like that's the thing that again, you know, there's not that many marquee free agents out there for next year. But that's the thing is like any free agent, if they're going to try to throw an offer at you know, they're they're going to say, you know, we have this young group of wings who maybe just needs like like a main playmaker, and so this could be like the team that that you built around the So we kind of touched upon this before. But so we have all Dresdros and Gay and Mills. They're all on expiring contracts and while the Spurs are trying to straddle two lines. If we get to a point where's the middle of the season, and maybe they're not out of the playoff race, but they're not like firmly in it, Like maybe they're more so in the play in spot chase than the actual postseason like going for a top seven or top six seed. Whatever they want to try and do. Do you think they become open to kind of moving whatever of those vets that they can, or do you think that the flexibility they're slated to have this summer is going to be more important to them? And it's not you know, I'm not even looking at it as like they're trying to tank, but with some of these larger deals, like they go from like you know, Mills being in the like medium end, with Gay being in the medium end, to the Rose and Aldrich who are larger like there might be situations where either teams want to clear their own cap space or two and twenty one, or they're just really hurting because of you know, losing the revenue from everything that's happened amid the pandemic. Perhaps they're willing to attach assets to these longer deals that maybe don't necessarily fit the Spurs' timeline or vision, but just net them another asset to move forward with if again, they're not firmly in like let's say a top six spot or top seven spot around the trade inline, do you think that's something they consider virgin being aggressive with or do you more so expect this to be mostly the team that they're finishing with, unless this becomes a situation where you know, maybe the Spurs are out of it and contenders come calling, where it's an expiring contract for an expiring contract, and that that expiring is also coming with an asset because Gay or Mills, maybe even aldridgards Rosen, like they could be viewed as like real assets to teams. Yeah, no, no, for sure, and I agree. You know, I think that this offseason, the Bread before the Drive, it showed us exactly the kind of the engagement they're going to have with with teams in terms of trades for these players. Because he did see de Rosen and trade rumors, we saw Aldrigen trade rumors. We even saw Petty Mills and trade rumors. We didn't see Rudy, But you know, there's basically, you know, I think that from from my perspective and how I'm gonna I'm gonna how I'm gonna see this whole season going through up until the March trade deadline is I think they're going to continue to take any calls on those four players, and maybe even Trey Lyles because he is you know, he's also like you know, he's kind of in that midway between the young guys and and the veterans. I think that they're gonna be taking calls and all these players throughout the year, and again, if there's a deal there for them, I think that that they might make it. Now, Like you said, if they're actually playing well and they're maybe like a top six or seven seed and it looks like they are going to the playoffs, they're pretty comfortable that. But then I think they're way more hesitant to make it kind of a deal if it's if it's a good deal. But if they started falling apart, you know, and there and there are maybe like a ninth through like twelveth range, whether I could see them then and yeah, there's a good deal out there for them to get some assets. Because they know these players probably aren't going to come back next year. I think that they that they would really evaluate those kind of scenarios. I think that all year we are going to see their players. These four players tied into different trade rumors through the last two years, right, it's like and yeah, yeah, and you know, like like like just a team that really just I think about that's good that you know, if they struggle out at the gate and they think they need some extra help. I think somebody like Boston might because they just got that big trade exception where they'd have to make some different roster moves, some cat mechanics, but they could actually make it work where they can end up pulling an audited or Drosen, you know, just a former All Star type caliber player if they really wanted to make you know, if they really struggled though with the group that they have. So again, I think that you mentioned there is gonna be there might be a playoff team down the line where there's where they had high expectations, they're not they're not meeting those expectations. So maybe they do want to get a Patty Mills, a a Rudy gay LaMarcus ad or DeRos, and so I don't know, if you know, just knowing the Spurs, I just think that these four players are probably gonna end up finishing the year. But if things go south and then it doesn't work out and we can tell they're not going to be a guaranteed playoff team, then I again, I think they take calls all year and maybe there's a chance they move some of these players because again, uh, you know, four assets like you mentioned, because at the end of the day, I don't think these four players will be back in Sana's undred next self season. I do have two follow questions that one, if I forced you to chew which I am, who would be the least likely player to finish the season on the Spurs among those four? I would say de Rosen right now. Really it's because of his yeah, only uh oh, you know who's never never mind change up. I'm actually because I'm thinking of their contracts. That is, I'm thinking of Aldered right now because of the numbers a little bit lower to trade to trade away. It's like twenty four million, whereas de Rosen's at twenty seven. I kind of thought it might be Mills. I don't know if that's like too much of a culture hit, just because he's such a cultural touchstone there if you move him. But that's like a guy who can is shooting off the ball still, as long as he's health, he's going to be really good, and that becomes like something that's if you can have him on the floor defensively in the playoffs, that's something that becomes super valuable. And his money is just so digestible. Yes, for sure, Yeah, that could happen too. I like, Patty is, like you mentioned, you know, the biggest culture piece here in San Antonio with the team, with the fan base. But like I, like I said, you know, it looks from the signals we saw there and the bubble was that like you know, they were trying to They were almost like they were getting ready to put him in that role, like being that that veteran player who's kind of just there for the locker room mentor mentorship. But he, like like I said, his comments are are a little bit different starting off training camp because that stuff that he hasn't really said before in San Antonio, saying that I want to be more aggressive on offense. I want to be the Australian national team version of Patty Mills. Like he's saying those things out loud, so I think that he knows that maybe maybe the Spurs and the league are looking at him like that one of those players who's out the door pretty soon. But so instead he wants to show that he still has a lot of there for himself to to kind of show that he can be an aggressive player. This is not something I sent you, but I was curious about it. How many minutes is Yako peartle getting this season, like he's never averaged that's yeah, that's a great question. And they gave him those like in the bubble, and then he just like at least in I think it was the beginning or maybe it was distressing, like he just fouled the bunch when he was given more minutes. Yeah, and he said that, and one of his interviews recently and so like he did say, like his short term goal for this season is to be a starter, which like that's kind of tough if they want to continue to play a little bit smaller. So there's no guarantee. And that's why, like, you know, as far, I had a good feeling that we're gonna bring him back, but I didn't know exactly, you know, how they're gonna make this work with everybody's healthy, all the bigs, and and that's the problem you see there is like yeah, uh And Yakov said that, you know, in the in the bubble when he did get those increased minutes, he's hoping to get that that type of minutes again, but he says that it was it was a little a lot harder for him defensively to make sure that he's not foiling as much because then he sees that it takes him out of the game, and you know, and he just wasn't used to that. But he was saying that he hopes with more reps in that type of situation, he would get better at it. But again, I don't, I don't. I can't give a prediction on the number of minutes, but man, it's gonna be a tough one because, like we just said, you know, there's there's Rudy, there's LaMarcus, there's Trey, and then there's Yakov and then plus and Drew Eubanks is back again too, So so there's no guaranteed minutes at the big spot unless unless your name is LaMarcus Aulder. That was a Drew you Bucs another guy in the bubble who just like played really well where I was like, wow, that guy can actually move pretty well on his defensive end. And they got him for nothing to bring him back. Yeah, just a minimum. Oh look, yaka Parto costs less than Mason Plummery. So so that's a win right off that. Yeah, so what's a realistic win total for this team? You can feel free to punt on that. But also, like where could you where do you envision them sort of finishing in the Western Conference. And just so our listeners there like this is just you get based off however you want, like if you're taking in maybe the prospect of trades or just leaning more into the youth at some point in the season, however you want to do it, Okay. So so what I came up with was, you know, they finished at forty five percent you know, winning percentage last year and an eighty and it was less than eight two season anyway, a short season, so I would say this, I do expect this team to be better than what they were last year, so I would just I would say raise that to about forty eight percent. So then when you when you tie that to a to a sixty two or seventy two games season, I'm predicting right now thirty four wins for this team. So again, thirty four wins is what I'm seeing. I saw that their Bravada I had their over under it at twenty nine point five wins, So so I'm taking the AAH. So I'm taking the over there against against Vegas and just you know, overall, I do see them in that that eighth through I would say eight through eleventh range. I think that they're gonna be one of those teams. He's kind of right there in the playoff hunt for at least the Bubble playoff. I mean for the play in playoff finding up until like ten. So they're gonna be stritting in that line. I don't know yet exactly, because, like I said, I'm not sure exactly how this team's gonna work out with LaMarcus and Trey Lausbeck. I really feel that if they go back to that that type of style that they had before the pandemic, where they want to, you know, give a lot more half court offense and run their post ups and they're picking pop mid rangers, and it's not the speed and the pace increase like we thought, or or the versatile lineups being played then they could have. They could they could regress and get a little bit worse than what we sell on the bubbles. So that's why I'm not so totally on this team just yet. So that's why I would say about eight till eleventh is my is my projection right now the range of outcomes for any team that hasn't steered itself out of the playoff race in the West right now is just wild because I think the Thunder and the Kings were the only two teams that I think have so far punted on that. Maybe the Kings aren't fully there, but after letting Bardanovitch walk, I think that they're eventually going to get to that point. They have all those expiring deals, they'll move them. You can maybe talk to yourself and they're like, I don't know that Minnesota will get to that point, but I think you can talk to yourself into them being bad. Maybe even the Grizzlies just they're missing Justice Winslow. They you know, just have a ton of questions. John Jason Junior is not going to be healthy to start the year. But just like even the really good teams, like a lot of them didn't get better. We have no idea what's happening in Houston. You could argue that Denver should be fine, but like they did lose two of their best winning defenders in Grant and Craig. Portland got a lot better, but they weren't contenders to begin with. I think Dallas got a little bit better, but Chris has porzingis won't be healthy to start the season, and what does he look like the Suns get a lot better, so like the Spurs are just like they could you could probably talk me into let's just say this team stays together and one stays helped me. You could probably talk me like from anywhere between three and like eleven or twelve for this team. Yeah, no, for sure. Yeah, And I even I would actually go, yeah, I would say, like even like six or seven sounds pretty solid for them too, if like, let's say the young guys you know, really continue, because I think a lot of this their success is going to be on the young guys. You know, how do they develop immature? You know, I know that they lost Bell and Ellien Fors, but the thing is Forbes is huge for their outside shooting, and so there's really not aside from Derek and like Patty Mills, none of these guys on this roster right now are like are like solid like three point shooters. So I think that there's gonna be a lot of questions for this team in terms of space. So you know, we'll see how it goes. But again, they can make up for that with that increase in pace if they continue that style. Though, Yeah, I think I'd be right around your win projection too, Like you have them at if it was an eighty two game season, You have them at roughly at thirty nine win pace with thirty four games, and that feels right. I guess if the over under is so low that just oddsmakers have to be like accounting for a probable like I don't want to say tear down, but they're either moving some of the veterans or they're just you know, maybe the veterans aren't playing as much and they're they're leaning fully into their their youth movement. Because I think would you say it was twenty eight twenty nine, like that just feels that feels really low through this team because that's a thirty three win season essentially, and again that just feels if they're going to be relatively healthy, that feels super low. Yeah for sure. So yeah, yeah, I think it was at twenty nine point five wins on Vada. Is there anything else that I didn't ask you that you want to talk about anything that's under you know, covered with this team nationally? Do you have any strong you know, Quindery Weatherspoon takes anything like that. No, I mean, I'm just trying to think here, like I'm just interested to see you again, like how how how everything works out with them, especially like my biggest question is the bringing back Aldridge because it is like, you know a little bit. I mean that's like, again, he's one of your your your core focal points in terms of where you go to on offense. And so that's gonna be something to watch. You know. Right now we're hearing the good things about he's picking a pop from three. But you know, I've watched the markets now for a few years here in San Antonio, and it's a lot of it is still that that that picking pop from mid range and getting your post ups and your turnaround shots and and you know, that stuff is just that's not that's not what they did in the bubble. And so that's why I want to see if they really can how much they can replicate what they did there in the bubble with these younger, more versatile lineups and these younger players, uh, and see how it works out. So so that's you know, that'll be interesting in watching. And I think also just the trade activity with this team in terms of uh, you know, all the rumors are gonna be happening, I think all season long, up until that trade does line. It would it would be out of character of them to do like anything substantial mid season. But they've also like they haven't been set up to do something like this in a really long time. Like it's just if they if they either don't want to make the offs that they're just not firmly in the hunt. Like they are just so perfectly set up to like begin their reset a little bit earlier, just you know, sell whatever veterans they can for assets and maybe not even having to take on long for money in the process. But they're also set up because their contracts are still be that, Hey, if that's the route they want to go and they don't care about having cap space this summer, they could do that. So they just have so many different things that they could do. But that's discounting the fact that I wouldn't view this team as even in the second or third tier of like contenders, if you want to say, the top six teams in the West, but like they could actually be if they're healthy, still really good, even if there aren't teams in the West that are just you know, waiving the white flag at some point during the middle of the season. Yeah, no, for sure, for sure. And then I think one other question, I mean one other thing I kind of want to watch two is you know which out of these young players, who's the guy who really makes some some growth, like really just takes a leap. I wonder if there's a player there and if I had to put, if I had to say someone, I would say maybe Kelton Johnson takes some more of a leap there this coming season, you think, more so than Lonnie Walker. Yeah, I think so. It just me again, based on what I saw there in the bubble and to the end of the year, to the end of the year in the summertime. So I really feel like Kelton was when who was really making a lot of growth and you know, just moving moving upward. Paul, Paul, this was great. Thank you for giving me, h forty five plus minutes of your time. If you guys are not following Paul on Twitter, remedy that immediately. He is at Paul Garcia NBA That spelled exactly as it sounds. He is covers the NBA for Projects Spurs and analyzing the league. He also hosts the Excuse Me the Spurs Cast. I'm sorry, I don't know why I was stuttering there, so he goes to Spurs Cast podcast again. Follow him on Twitter at Paul Garcia NBA. I'm sure, as you know by now, Paul, I will be pestering you again in the future, So thanks again for coming on. I really enjoyed the discussion every time you're here. Awesome. Thanks Danny. Yeah, this is fun for sure. 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