WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.879 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero FX. Today we are talking 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:08.640 about Batman under the Red Hood, Batman death in the family. The first 3 00:00:08.679 --> 00:00:13.519 part. Basicly, we're talking about Jason Todd, the Red Hood, the 4 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:18.480 Joker, and one of the most interesting and ethically rich stories in the Batman 5 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:22.559 Cannon that has been very famous in comic books for some time, brought to 6 00:00:22.600 --> 00:00:25.079 life in animation in a couple of movies that we watched, and we're going 7 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:28.760 to discuss all that more with myself and Paul Hoppy right after this commercial break. 8 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:39.560 We have no controller. Welcome back, Matthew, your host. I 9 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:43.520 am joined by. Don't get too excited. They are still very much not 10 00:00:43.560 --> 00:00:47.359 an official co host and this maybe their last appearance for a while until something 11 00:00:47.359 --> 00:00:50.000 interesting occurs to them. Paul, Happy, Paul. How are we doing 12 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:55.359 today? Doing pretty good? Yeah? I was debating how many how many 13 00:00:55.399 --> 00:01:00.439 spoilers you had in that intro, but I guess we'll say there will be 14 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:03.479 spoiler's forthcoming, and thinking about it more, I'm like, well, it 15 00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:11.239 wasn't exactly entirely you know. Yeah, I mean the show opens with Joker 16 00:01:11.719 --> 00:01:17.239 murdering Jason Todd, and then Batman fights the Red Hood and then well, 17 00:01:17.319 --> 00:01:19.760 I feel like this is a story that's been well told in a number of 18 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:26.640 places, not in live action yet. Well no, no, no, 19 00:01:26.680 --> 00:01:29.280 that's false. It was well, it was told in a live action that 20 00:01:29.359 --> 00:01:33.439 very few people have seen, namely Tight Nights, Yeah, which did a 21 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:36.680 version of it, which we'll get to. But I will say, yeah, 22 00:01:36.719 --> 00:01:38.200 for those who don't know what we're talking for those who don't know who 23 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:44.519 we're talking about, we're talking about the Red Hood Batman plot arc that is 24 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:47.519 very good if you If you don't know what we're talking about, I may 25 00:01:47.560 --> 00:01:52.719 suggest hitting pause, go watch on HBO Max or forgive me now, just 26 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:57.560 Max Batman under the Red Hood. You do also get basically a full summary 27 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:01.439 of it and just Batman reflecting on it in twenty five minutes in the first 28 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:05.680 part of Batman Death in the Family. Yeah, it's like the cliff Notes 29 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:10.319 the bat Notes pretty much. Or we will actually do he a summary of 30 00:02:10.360 --> 00:02:14.919 it as part of talking to you about it today. So let me actually 31 00:02:15.000 --> 00:02:17.039 jump in there, Paul, let me ask you. Can you summarize what 32 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:23.879 is the Red Hood storyline? Yeah, so, going all the way back, 33 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:30.319 there's a storyline where the Joker is maybe the head of the Red Hood 34 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:32.319 Gang or he's wearing the Red Hook or whatever, and he falls into the 35 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:38.560 vat of chemicals and becomes the Joker after a confrontation with Batman. Right right, 36 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:44.680 So fast forward years later, Dick Grayson has been Robin. He's gone 37 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:49.479 off and he's become Nightling. Jason Todd has become the new Robin. Tim 38 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:53.319 Drake fits in there somewhere. But this is you know, this is about 39 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:57.120 Jason Todd. He's the new Robin. He and Batman kind of you know, 40 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:00.199 they don't see everything the same way all the time. He's he's a 41 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:02.039 little more into like, can't we be a little more violent? You know, 42 00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:07.599 is this really going to be the Does this way work? Which I 43 00:03:07.639 --> 00:03:13.639 think is a legitimate question judging by how often everyone gets, you know, 44 00:03:13.759 --> 00:03:15.439 locked up and then escapes and locked up and escapes and YadA, YadA, 45 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:21.960 YadA. You look at how Gotham functions, right, And so Rachel Gol 46 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:25.240 is like doing a thing in Europe, like destabilizing the banks or something. 47 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.879 You know, he's blowing some stuff up. He uses the Joker as a 48 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:35.879 distraction, but the Joker captures and murders Jason Todd and it's like the one 49 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:38.639 time that you know, they don't get away, and in the original comic 50 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:43.800 storyline, they like held a pole an audience poll like does Robin die? 51 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:50.439 Does he escape? Whatever? You know? And then that's like the backstory, 52 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:53.879 right, and then you fast forward kind of to quote unquote modern day 53 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:59.080 Gotham or the where most of the story is set, and this new villain 54 00:03:59.199 --> 00:04:01.719 called the Red Hood, which is clearly not the same Redhood that the Joker 55 00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:08.479 was, but shows up and starts trying to consolidate organized crime, bumping off 56 00:04:08.479 --> 00:04:13.680 a lot of you know, the criminals, right and saying like, don't 57 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:16.319 sell the kids, but you do the rest of your stuff and get me 58 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:20.319 forty percent, and I'll protect you from people like Black Mask and from Batman, 59 00:04:20.600 --> 00:04:24.759 right so, and from me, he's basically, and from me because 60 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.120 I'll kill you if you don't do what I tell you do, Yes, 61 00:04:27.240 --> 00:04:30.480 exactly. I mean it's that kind of It's like it's you know, the 62 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:32.480 protection. Yeah, you know, I'm just selling your protection from me. 63 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:38.439 But also like Batman and Black Mask are a legit, you know, other 64 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:44.040 people interfering with their affairs, right, so you know, Batman confronts him 65 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:49.319 a couple of times and eventually comes to realize that it's Jason Todd who's been 66 00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:57.800 brought back from the dead by Rachel Gul via Lazarus Pit. And then Red 67 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:02.000 Hood keeps going after Black Mask, and Black Mask eventually breaks the Joker out 68 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:08.040 of Arkham, and basically the whole planel all along was to antagonize Black Mask 69 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:12.040 to the point where then he's going to recruit the Joker, because the Red 70 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:16.920 Hood actually wanted to get to the Joker and get to Batman and then arrange 71 00:05:16.959 --> 00:05:24.439 this like spicy three way at the end where basically, you know they're all 72 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:27.399 fighting, Well, the Joker's basically just tied up and getting beaten with a 73 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.600 crowbar, and you know, there's a lot of kind of this is what 74 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:31.560 you did to me, so now this is what I'm doing to you. 75 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:34.160 This is what you did to them, So now I'm wearing you know, 76 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:39.399 their get up, and then they're all Specifically, the Joker had tortured Jason 77 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:43.879 Todd with a crowbar for a while before finally killing him, Yeah, exactly, 78 00:05:43.959 --> 00:05:47.639 and clearly had a lot of fun doing so. And the Joker clearly 79 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:54.199 seems to enjoy this whole thing that Jason has set up right where you know 80 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.199 they're all about to get blown up, and Jokers like, I'm the only 81 00:05:57.199 --> 00:06:00.279 one who's going to get what he wants tonight. And you know, then 82 00:06:00.279 --> 00:06:02.639 of course they don't all get blown up, and you know, he sets 83 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:08.120 up one of those uh, you know, Punisher versus Daredevil rooftop. You 84 00:06:08.160 --> 00:06:11.079 know, either you shoot me or I shoot him. You know, there's 85 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:13.519 no third way out. And then of course there's always a third way out 86 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:17.519 because you know comics, yeah, and just stories in general. Right, 87 00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:23.920 I mean, I think there's a strong third way trope going on here. 88 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:30.720 And so the movie ends with do we get the sense that Joker has survived? 89 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:33.439 Even though we just think to see Batman pulling Jason Todd out of the 90 00:06:33.439 --> 00:06:39.199 wreckage, but we learned that that that Joker survived. We don't hear anything 91 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:43.879 about what happened to Jason except for comment about like where is he? And 92 00:06:43.920 --> 00:06:47.079 then in kind of a coda to it, as I mentioned, the movie 93 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:50.879 that came out ten years later, which is a bag of an anthology of 94 00:06:50.959 --> 00:06:56.040 shorts called Death in the Family or is it a Death in the Family, 95 00:06:56.040 --> 00:06:59.680 because those are two different things. No, there's Death in there's a death 96 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:02.920 in a family, and there's Death of the Family, which is okay, 97 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.079 I believe I have this straight. There's a Death in the Family, which 98 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:11.399 is a comic storyline, then there was Death of the Family, which is 99 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:17.000 a later comic storyline. Then there's Under the Red Hood, which then became 100 00:07:17.040 --> 00:07:21.439 a movie, and then they made a Death in the Family. It's like 101 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:26.480 there's like a live, interactive, interactive film somewhere. But the thing they 102 00:07:26.480 --> 00:07:30.279 have on Max is actually an anthology where I think they took one of the 103 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.600 storylines and then they added a bunch of shorts and it's called a Death in 104 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:42.240 the Family. Yeah, and so in it and so in it. It's 105 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:46.600 basically Batman telling the story to someone and for well, sorry, it's Bruce 106 00:07:46.600 --> 00:07:48.920 Wayne telling the story to someone of what happened, and for a while, 107 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:54.360 we don't know what who they're telling it to, and basically recounting the whole 108 00:07:54.399 --> 00:08:00.560 thing and doing a lot of introspection about his role in recruiting the Robin but 109 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:05.720 also perhaps not not protecting them enough and all his complicated feelings about that, 110 00:08:05.759 --> 00:08:09.639 and all his complicated feelings about what happened to Jason Todd and the responsibility and 111 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:13.160 blame he feels for that. And at the end of it, what he 112 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:18.199 says is that you know, they know that Jason Todd lived, but that 113 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:20.879 they don't know where he is. And then of course it's also revealed that 114 00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:24.120 it's Clark Kent that he's talking to, and as this really beautiful moment of 115 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:28.279 the two of them, like both admitting that they have contingency plans to defeat 116 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.080 the other, but also kind of showing that they have a real respect for 117 00:08:31.080 --> 00:08:35.480 each other. Yeah, and I'll just say, so, this is the 118 00:08:35.559 --> 00:08:39.159 version of it that we're talking about, and we're mostly going to be talking 119 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:45.600 about this specific version of it, but this is a There are kind of 120 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:50.200 like some key moments in the Batman mythos that have been told over and over 121 00:08:50.279 --> 00:08:54.600 and over again, and every time it's told, some details are kept the 122 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.679 same and some are kept different. And you know, so Dick Grayson's parents 123 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:03.200 is one of them. Batman's parents dying obviously is another one. If this 124 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:05.840 is not quite at that level of popularity, as I said, it's never 125 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:09.840 appeared in a movie, but I think it is becoming pretty well known, 126 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.679 and it has appeared, as he said, in a number of different places. 127 00:09:13.000 --> 00:09:18.039 Batman, the animated series Into Justice League had a version of this story. 128 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:20.200 This always has a version of the story. The comics have it well 129 00:09:20.240 --> 00:09:26.399 known, Titans has it well known, and I think it's also and it's 130 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.720 obviously appeared in a lot of comic books and other things like that. And 131 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:35.559 my understanding is kind of the key points to it are always it's Jason Todd. 132 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.120 It's distinctly not Dick Grayson, is it. As you said, Jason 133 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:43.639 Todd wants to be more violent. He doesn't necessarily want to kill, although 134 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.519 sometimes he does want to kill, but he's certainly he enjoys the violence in 135 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:52.559 a way Batman thinks he shouldn't. That he and Batman have real disagreements that 136 00:09:54.559 --> 00:10:00.720 Jason gets himself into danger and caught by the Joker in ways that are depending 137 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:05.080 on that. Jason often thinks it is Batman's fault. Whether that is or 138 00:10:05.120 --> 00:10:09.080 not, or whether it's something he Batman told him not to do, various 139 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:13.840 with the tellering, but certainly Batman fields some guilt about it. The Joker 140 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:18.559 tortures him, the Joker kills him, and then he comes back as well. 141 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:20.639 In some versions, actor Joker doesn't fully kill him. He just brainwashes 142 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.159 him, and it's kind of the like, you know, it's sort of 143 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.960 a version of the killing joke. And if you know, anybody is one 144 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:31.039 good, one bad day away from turning there Jason Todd does you know? 145 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:35.200 The versions is the Lazarus Pit or something else that brings him back but brings 146 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:39.879 out his worst aspects or whatever it is, and that he then goes on 147 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:43.200 to try and consolidate crime and to fight Batman, and Batman is eventually placed 148 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:46.240 in the situation where basically, like the only thing he can do is to 149 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:50.759 fight Jason and some horrible thing is going to happen, and of course Batman 150 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:56.440 figures a way to save it. Yeah, and I haven't seen all of 151 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:05.360 them, and there's, um, there's definitely a another storyline where something similar 152 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:11.159 happens to Tim Drake, right, But that's that's a separate story that really 153 00:11:11.200 --> 00:11:15.000 kind of only appears in that one place, and we've talked about it before. 154 00:11:15.039 --> 00:11:18.000 I don't really want to talk about it right now because hopefully people will 155 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.720 just see it and it's just really good. But yeah, but yeah, 156 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.120 I think I think that's a good, you know, general summary of So 157 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:28.919 why why do you think the story resonates so much? Why is it a 158 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:33.600 story that people who love Batman keep telling again and again and the people who 159 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:39.320 love watching Batman are really drawn and reading Batman are really drawn to I mean, 160 00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.360 I think it kind of gets to some of the central questions of like, 161 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:48.960 you know, if you're going to step outside the law and try and 162 00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:54.960 like I'd like to have a better word than criminals, but that's what that's 163 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:58.120 what they use, so we could just go with it for now. But 164 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.840 you know, basically, if if you're going to step outside the law and 165 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:07.120 try and stop people who I guess people who are doing things that you think 166 00:12:07.159 --> 00:12:11.480 are harmful, right, you know, what measures are you willing to take? 167 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.720 You know? And there's there's a question of like, you know, 168 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.759 what's what's right, what's wrong, but also kind of what do you trust 169 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.559 yourself with right? You know? Like I mean, I love the series 170 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:31.080 Dexter for some number of serious seasons that don't include the last one. And 171 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:35.440 you know, it's about a guy who goes around killing people who are doing 172 00:12:35.480 --> 00:12:39.600 harm to other people, and he's doing that because he likes to kill people. 173 00:12:41.200 --> 00:12:46.039 And his dad was like, hey, if you're gonna kill people anyway, 174 00:12:46.120 --> 00:12:48.720 you know, you might as well kill people who maybe that's going to 175 00:12:48.759 --> 00:12:52.919 make the world a little better. And you know, you're less likely to 176 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:56.559 get caught because people aren't gonna miss them so much, right, People aren't 177 00:12:56.559 --> 00:13:00.360 gonna be like, oh, we have to avenge the death of this you 178 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:05.320 know, serial pedophile, you know, killer or whatever. And not to 179 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:07.639 Nippick. But I think it's an important clarification. It's not even that he 180 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:11.320 likes killing, It is that he has a compulsion to do it sure stream 181 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:13.759 trauma that he had when he was a kid. Yeah, that's a that's 182 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:22.960 a definitely a a necessary specification. I agree. Yeah, And you know 183 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:26.279 that doesn't mean that he necessarily literally has to do it, but that he 184 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:31.639 has he has, you know, psychological issues basically that right that that um, 185 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:37.440 he feels compelled to do that, and you know, by the end 186 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:43.039 of it spoilers. You know, he's not necessarily only killing people who are 187 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:48.080 doing a lot of harm, right, um. And so I think broadly 188 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:52.360 speaking, I mean I have a question like, can you really trust anyone 189 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:56.200 to make those judgments? I certainly don't trust the government too, you know, 190 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:01.039 I mean, we recently did gross, point blank and talking about sometimes 191 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:03.159 there's due process, sometimes there's not, but like even if there is due 192 00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:09.360 process, like I'm still against it, you know. But but in terms 193 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:13.000 of a practical sense, you know, they're fighting people who are brandishing guns 194 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.960 at them, and that gets to a different point, like what level of 195 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:20.080 violence are you prepared to use when you're trying to stop someone from doing something 196 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:24.080 harmful overall? But also like they're literally trying to kill you right now? 197 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:30.080 You know, what sort of level of violence is acceptable or do you find 198 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:33.840 acceptable there? You know? And and here I think one of the reasons 199 00:14:35.320 --> 00:14:43.600 that I think this resonates with a lot of people is that instead of showing 200 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:48.639 Batman as this maybe maybe a badman, that I actually prefer as this like 201 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:54.080 you know, angry, but not like not filled with the spirit of vengeance, 202 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:58.120 not filled with like I want to kill these people. I want to 203 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.440 hurt these people, but I won't let myself, you know, I have 204 00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.159 more of a view of like the Batman that I prefer is is more like 205 00:15:05.879 --> 00:15:09.919 that's not what I want to do. I really do, just want to 206 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:13.879 stop them. This Batman is very much he's like there's not a day that 207 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.120 goes by that I don't think about killing the Joker, you know, right, 208 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:22.679 and they show like he um like wants to just like just crush his 209 00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:26.519 throat, and and he's like, he says to Jason basically, hey, 210 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:28.720 if I do that, I don't think I'm coming back, you know, 211 00:15:28.840 --> 00:15:31.960 yeah, like I think you know if I'm like, yeah, well I 212 00:15:31.960 --> 00:15:35.320 can kill the Joker, right, it's the Joker. He killed Jason. 213 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:39.159 And he's like, but then you know what about Riddler? Riddler, Yeah, 214 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:41.720 maybe maybe I should kill Riddles. I mean, just these just these 215 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:45.799 two, you know, right, because as you say, with Dexter, 216 00:15:45.960 --> 00:15:50.960 what happens, and I think this is history is rife with this. Most 217 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:52.799 of the people who we think of as like the most horrible people in the 218 00:15:52.799 --> 00:15:58.080 world, like in their minds, they are doing harm to the people they 219 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:02.799 think are doing harm. And often, I mean, and you know, 220 00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:06.120 when it starts with just like I want to harm the Jews because I think 221 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.559 the Jews are terrible like that that is obviously even just starting from a horrible 222 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:12.360 place, but sometimes it's you know, yeah, I think criminals are doing 223 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:15.559 terrible things and I want to harm them. Well, I think there's some 224 00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:18.919 socioeconomic analysis that's really needed there about why are you beating up poor people? 225 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:23.200 Inte. But like where it can also then go is even if you start 226 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:27.519 with the idea of I am going to harm this person because I know that 227 00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:32.639 this person is doing terrible things, Okay, but now there are these three 228 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.080 henchmen in the way, right, so I have to do harm to their 229 00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:41.480 hench henchmen. And excuse me. Now there's this like rent a cop security 230 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:44.960 guard at the bank, and I have to do harm to that person and 231 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.240 we'll wait. But if someone knows that I'm the one doing is, they'll 232 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.919 stop me. So I don't have to do harm to the lady who was 233 00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:56.679 just an innocent bystander who saw me like and I think that kind of snowballing 234 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:00.000 is definitely a thing. Yeah. One thing I think that that makes this 235 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.519 particularly interesting is and there's actually a whole other level to why I want the 236 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.799 story so fascinating that we'll get to. But let's just start with this because 237 00:17:07.920 --> 00:17:14.359 the idea of the Jason questioning Batman's methods, I think that there are fundamentally 238 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:19.759 two different like branches this question gets into that are very linked. But I 239 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.759 think it's important to separate, and I'm curious if you see the same way. 240 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:29.960 One is, do you allow yourself to enjoy the violence you are inflicting? 241 00:17:30.480 --> 00:17:33.839 And thus, how much or how little are you holding back on the 242 00:17:33.960 --> 00:17:37.519 you know, are you calling your punches when you need to, are you 243 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:42.599 just not using exactly the full force, or you're trying to not do even 244 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:47.000 worse? And like, there's a pivotal scene where Jason doesn't kill someone, 245 00:17:47.039 --> 00:17:51.319 he shatters their collar bone and Batman gets very angry at him, and I 246 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.400 question that given the normal rants we've given about you know, things Batman and 247 00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:59.079 Daredevil and people like that do, and the bodily damage they do. But 248 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:03.960 even putting that as side, But then I think there's a separate related question, 249 00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:07.960 which is the idea of a deterrent, which is, if your goal 250 00:18:08.079 --> 00:18:12.119 is to not only stop the evil thing or the bad thing that a person's 251 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:17.039 doing right now, but to prevent them from doing bad things in the future, 252 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:22.119 well, hopefully the society has a system into which you can put them 253 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:26.759 that will take care of them. Our society kind of sort of does, 254 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:30.039 but it's a really really bad one and really inhumane and really horrible, and 255 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:34.880 doesn't use restoration and restored justice in any way. The Gotham one is even 256 00:18:34.960 --> 00:18:38.480 worse because not only does it just lock people up, but it's really really 257 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:45.200 bad at locking people up. And so I think Jason is raising like there's 258 00:18:45.200 --> 00:18:48.279 definitely that question of like can you enjoy it? How much violence can you 259 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:52.880 do? But also this question of if we know with fairly high degree of 260 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:59.599 certainty that if we just put Joker into Arkham, he will get free and 261 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:04.880 the hurt people and kill people again, if in this world the literal only 262 00:19:04.880 --> 00:19:08.200 way to stop him doing that is to kill him, then we should should 263 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:12.759 we kill him? And I very much sure, like you, I'm not 264 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.000 in favor of that argument, but I think it's important kind of do you 265 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.920 see what I mean about separating tho two arguments a bit? Yeah? And 266 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:25.279 I mean almost feel like you got into a third one at the end, 267 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:30.240 but you know, the I mean too or I guess maybe you didn't get 268 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:32.319 into the one that I thought you were going to get into at the beginning, 269 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:36.440 which is like, you know, the sort of breaking the collar bone 270 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:40.920 and like is that you know, is that too much? And yeah, 271 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:45.200 I do think you know in Arrow, right, they like Arrow like makes 272 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:52.079 this like you know, black Site prison right like on the islands that he 273 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:53.480 was, you know, and like he's basically like, yeah, I'm gonna 274 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:59.440 store all these you know, super villains here. And I mean, if 275 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:04.400 you're Batman and you have a bat cave, maybe you should just kidnap Joker, 276 00:20:04.920 --> 00:20:10.519 you know, like put them in your cave, serve them three squares 277 00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:12.319 a day, and like, you know, maybe talk to him here and 278 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:18.079 there. Like but like, Arkham does not seem like a good solution. 279 00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:23.319 I think that's right. And I think a lot of times when stories set 280 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:26.880 this up in such a way where they're just like, oh, the only 281 00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:33.799 solutions are Arkham or murder, and it's like, well, no, you 282 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.759 know, it's like in in our world, it's like the only solutions aren't 283 00:20:37.759 --> 00:20:45.559 necessarily either you incarcerate someone in the ridiculous US prison system or you kill them, 284 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:48.759 Like you know, there are other things you can do, and it's 285 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:52.799 like, you know, whether the story is interested in investigating those and whether 286 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:59.000 people are investigating those in our world that's a question. But you know, 287 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:03.279 I'm a strong I mean, I'm a I'm a believer in the third way, 288 00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.279 Like not that there's always a good answer not that there's always you know, 289 00:21:07.559 --> 00:21:14.160 um a better way, but that very rarely are we presented with a 290 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:18.000 true you know, A or B binary decision where it's like you can either 291 00:21:18.039 --> 00:21:21.640 do this or you can do that. It's a multiple choice. No, 292 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.319 that's not how reality functions. You can try and think of new and you 293 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:29.920 know, more effective ways, and then you can try them and maybe they 294 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:33.319 work, maybe they don't. But like you know, and this is this 295 00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:36.599 is a tangent, but but it's related in some ways, kind of related 296 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.960 to everything we do. Because I'm going to say a word in defensive trolley 297 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:45.759 problems, because I agree with you that in real life is never that simple. 298 00:21:47.759 --> 00:21:51.200 I think, and I think it's important to remember that a trolley problem, 299 00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:53.480 which is I think exactly we're talking abouts where you set up a it's 300 00:21:53.480 --> 00:22:00.319 either A or B both have negative consequences, which do you choose? I 301 00:22:00.359 --> 00:22:06.599 think that is useful as a psyche, as a philosophical exercise to help people 302 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:11.519 think more about their values and how they see things and how they do or 303 00:22:11.519 --> 00:22:15.839 don't value things. I think the danger is that we then think that means 304 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:19.279 that things in real life are actual trolley problems, and that a lot of 305 00:22:19.279 --> 00:22:25.039 our media says, look, here's a trolley problem, and in the reality, 306 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:29.200 the hero almost always, you know, comes up with a third way 307 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:32.599 the trolley or something, yeah exactly. And that used to frustrate me, 308 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.640 but I actually think, no, it's actually a good thing because because that's 309 00:22:34.680 --> 00:22:38.079 the point is that in real life, because because it's also not only that 310 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.799 there's often a third way, but there's also often so much more context, 311 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:45.400 you know, And there's a there's actually a board game called Trolley Problem, 312 00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:51.480 which I really enjoy because part of what you do is like each team puts 313 00:22:51.680 --> 00:22:55.200 cards on the other one's tracks to try to convince the operator to go down 314 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.200 one or the other. But the idea that you start out with it's just 315 00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:06.759 like you know, um, you know, Florence Nightingale or the guy who 316 00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:10.720 invented pop up ads on the internet. And you're like, oh, okay, 317 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:12.039 well that one's easy. And then you're like, okay, but the 318 00:23:12.039 --> 00:23:17.839 guy who invented pop up ads is also gonna sure cancer one day, and 319 00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:22.839 Florence Nightingale is you know, doing horrible things with ten year old like it. 320 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:25.160 Whatever it is, the idea is that you just keep adding more and 321 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:27.079 more context. The game is very silly, and this is kind of a 322 00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:33.079 silly tangent, but my base point just being that I think there is value 323 00:23:33.079 --> 00:23:38.319 to the psychological exercise, of philosophical exercise of trying to, you know, 324 00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:44.160 ask yourself what choices people would make in those kind of situations. But then 325 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:48.240 also yeah, understanding that, as you were just saying, real life is 326 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:51.400 never that simple. It's never going to just be a binary and even those 327 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:55.960 two options are always gonna be much more complex. Yeah, I mean, 328 00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:06.240 I guess I'm not sold on the util of that framework, but I do 329 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:11.920 I do feel like if I don't know, it's the sort of thing where 330 00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:15.960 it's like, all right, if you're going to go with this thought experiment 331 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:18.480 and then you're going to be like, oh, that's the bell, that's 332 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.440 all for today, and then you're just going to do something else next week. 333 00:24:22.960 --> 00:24:27.519 I think that's like potentially pretty harmful, you know, whereas like if 334 00:24:27.559 --> 00:24:33.240 you're actually going to talk about everything you were talking about about, how yeah 335 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.799 there always is context, right, things aren't ever actually that simple. Like 336 00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.519 we are using this, like we're using this as a hypothetical with a deep 337 00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:47.200 understanding of the fact that it is a hypothetical and that things are never actually 338 00:24:47.680 --> 00:24:52.200 this simple, right, yes, exactly, then like I could potentially be 339 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.160 persuaded. I certainly don't feel like that's necessarily that bad. Whether I think 340 00:24:56.200 --> 00:25:00.440 it's necessarily that helpful, I'm not sure, but you know, you know, 341 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.119 cool, whatever, do it the way you want to do it. 342 00:25:03.160 --> 00:25:07.279 You know, again, for us mere mortals. Sure, sure, for 343 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:12.920 I will deign to allow it for for mortals. But but yeah, I 344 00:25:14.359 --> 00:25:22.359 think, um, it's interesting how often, you know, various media do 345 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:27.880 portray these sorts of things and then say, but there is actually a third 346 00:25:27.880 --> 00:25:32.799 way, and like, maybe there's as as sort of contrived as these things 347 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:37.640 always feel. To me, maybe that's actually a kind of its own lesson, 348 00:25:37.880 --> 00:25:41.839 And I do appreciate that lesson of like, you know, yeah, 349 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:45.880 you don't when somebody faces you with the choice of A or B, you 350 00:25:47.079 --> 00:25:49.920 can sometimes say no, right, No, I really like what you're saying 351 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.119 there, And I think you're right. That's something I certainly have not thought 352 00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:56.200 of before. But but I've been thinking about even before it starts speaking that 353 00:25:57.359 --> 00:26:02.319 because to me, I think when you look at someone like Joker or Jason 354 00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:07.400 Todd or Joker in the dark night or you know, green Goblin, a 355 00:26:07.519 --> 00:26:10.480 villain will come along to make a hero make a terrible choice. What all 356 00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:15.400 this is. One of the things that's motivating them is unfortunately a limited imagination. 357 00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:22.440 You know. Punisher has decided that there is no hope right the criminal 358 00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:26.680 justice system. You cannot have a society that has a criminal justice system that 359 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.240 works in any way, and so therefore we have to just kind of accept 360 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.119 you have to let me kill these people because that's the only way. And 361 00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:37.880 to me, that's exactly what the death penalty is. The death penalty is 362 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:42.000 an abandonment of hope. It's a we don't think and it's such a self 363 00:26:42.039 --> 00:26:45.759 fulfilling prophecy, you know, because it's like, look, we're going to 364 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:49.440 build a prison system that gives people the least possible chance to be rehabilitated, 365 00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.920 and then say, oh, look they weren't rehabilitated, so all we should 366 00:26:52.920 --> 00:26:56.359 do is killed them. And in Gothic it's even worse, you know. 367 00:26:56.440 --> 00:27:00.480 And yeah, so I do like that idea. The third thing, third 368 00:27:00.480 --> 00:27:04.640 way shifting though though to the violence question, I just want to agree with 369 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.279 that. I think I really like what you said in response, as while 370 00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.240 I'm on board with all that. Oh, thank you, I appreciate that. 371 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:14.480 Shifting back though to the first part of the Jason Todd thing, and 372 00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:17.079 then I want to get into my wholly other different reason why I think the 373 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:22.000 story is so interesting. Let's talk about this question of the enjoyment of well. 374 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.559 First of all, I just want to make the brief editorial comment that 375 00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.000 you and I have already talked about the idea that, like, there is 376 00:27:30.119 --> 00:27:33.839 violence that is very specifically intended to be lethal, like firing a gun at 377 00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.519 someone stabbing them in the heart, but then any kind of violence has the 378 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:41.839 potential to be lethal. You know, yeah, we were. I was 379 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:45.279 just reminded because they the medical staff won an award there was a football player 380 00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:51.799 who came very close to dying just because he got hit hard in the chest 381 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.880 at the exact wrong moment in his you know, heartbeat rhythm, and he 382 00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:03.119 almost died. And there's just possibility that no one has died from Daredevil or 383 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:06.160 Batman hitting them in the head with metal objects on a frequent basis, or 384 00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:07.759 any of that stuff. But you heard us talk about that. I'm yeah, 385 00:28:07.880 --> 00:28:11.440 yeah, So the idea that he's even just saying like no, no, 386 00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.000 I pull my punches enough that I'm not going to even break their collar 387 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.960 bone? Is I get what the I get what the writers meant to buy 388 00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:22.240 that. I think that was a really bad way to write it. I'm 389 00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:26.400 gonna I'm gonna largely co sign that. I will say, like you can 390 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:30.359 choose your targets, you know, and it like I'm not saying no Batman 391 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.119 is going around hitting people in the collarbone all the time, but like that's 392 00:28:33.160 --> 00:28:37.960 a I'm pretty sure I broke someone's collarbone one time, and like, you 393 00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:42.519 know it it's a specific place that you hit someone. You know that that 394 00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:47.240 wasn't what I was trying to do, right, but like, you know, 395 00:28:48.039 --> 00:28:52.079 it's this was in the context of martial arts of a tournament, you 396 00:28:52.119 --> 00:28:56.160 know, where I think I ended up losing a fight like thirteen to two, 397 00:28:56.200 --> 00:29:00.640 but the other person basically like couldn't proceed from there because there are certain 398 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.720 you know, and like like you could say that's irresponsible, you know, 399 00:29:03.880 --> 00:29:07.400 and I don't think that would be too far off, but like, there 400 00:29:07.480 --> 00:29:12.440 are places you can hit people that are likely to that are more likely to 401 00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:17.119 incapacitate them, take the wind out of them, knock them down, you 402 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:21.160 know. Or cause like some kind of lower level of damage, and there's 403 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:23.920 other places that are that are more vital. You know that if I'm fighting 404 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:26.799 someone with the gun, I gotta say, like, first of all, 405 00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.119 generally like don't fight people with guns. If somebody comes up to me with 406 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:32.640 a gun, I'm like, yeah, what do you want? You know, 407 00:29:33.119 --> 00:29:36.400 I'm happy about it, but sure, here's my stuff, go far 408 00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:42.480 away and you know, best of luck. M But like if somebody's brandishing 409 00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.359 a gun at you and shooting it at you and or at me, and 410 00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:52.039 like I'm trying to defend myself against that, I'll be honest, I'm probably 411 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:59.000 not going to show as much restraint as like Batman does or wants Jason Todd 412 00:29:59.000 --> 00:30:03.759 to. Right, having said that, that's what they do, they've put 413 00:30:03.799 --> 00:30:07.960 themselves in that situation. That situation didn't come to them right, right. 414 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:11.119 You know. Then again, like you know, Batman's putting a kid in 415 00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:14.400 the field or then now I think he's a teenager. It's like, yeah, 416 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:18.319 you know, it's I agree that that scene could have been written better. 417 00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:22.519 I think mostly if he like broke his jaw, because because what they 418 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:30.039 did, he wasn't like, oh, this is clearly bad because you hurt 419 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.200 him too much, right, Who's like this is bad because now we needed 420 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:38.079 him to talk and he wanted to shock, you know. And I'm not 421 00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:44.400 one hundred certain whether the story is saying that Batman's definitely right there and Jason's 422 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:47.799 definitely wrong there, or if the story is maybe saying like, hey, 423 00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:49.839 this is this is a good question, and you can kind of think about 424 00:30:49.839 --> 00:30:53.279 it yourself. I prefer to think of it the second way, you know. 425 00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:56.799 Yeah, And but I think they kind of it was like a cake 426 00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.400 and have it to situation, right, you know. Well, and I 427 00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:04.599 think that's where also it becomes important I'm going to separate these two things, 428 00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:08.839 but then say that they're also very linked, kind of to separate the moral 429 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:12.720 or ethical philosophical argument from the strategic one, right, you know. And 430 00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:18.240 that's kind of the same thing of like, if you have an alternative that 431 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:21.839 isn't the death penalty, then there's a very good debate to be had, 432 00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:25.359 although I think it's a pretty simple debate frankly, of do you use that 433 00:31:25.440 --> 00:31:30.160 deterrent or do you kill them? But if if you literally have no other 434 00:31:30.240 --> 00:31:33.319 deterrent, if they're always going to escape, then yeah, then there is 435 00:31:33.319 --> 00:31:36.559 at least a strategic idea of using the death penalty. I'm still against it, 436 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:40.359 but I get that, and I think he yeah to me, v 437 00:31:40.640 --> 00:31:42.680 oh, but now he's gone into shock. We can't talk to him. 438 00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:48.559 Argument it kind of falls flat because the whole rest of discussion is about him 439 00:31:48.640 --> 00:31:51.319 enjoying it, you know, in Jason's but he deserves it and stuff like 440 00:31:51.319 --> 00:31:52.960 that, And so I kind of I guess what I can kind to do 441 00:31:53.000 --> 00:31:56.319 here because also it's more relevant to the other stories as well as because all 442 00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.559 right, so putting aside the specific way this one's written, Yeah, what's 443 00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:04.799 your take on this idea of that Jason's problems that he's enjoying it too much? 444 00:32:05.759 --> 00:32:07.960 I mean, I think it's dangerous. I think it's the sort of 445 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:13.960 thing that either you can control or you can't. I mean, I'll I'll 446 00:32:14.119 --> 00:32:20.519 tell you another taekwondo story. I went to see Revenge of the Sith when 447 00:32:20.559 --> 00:32:24.039 it came out with some taekwondo friends, and one of them was talking about 448 00:32:24.039 --> 00:32:32.359 relating to Anakin and the sort of like you know, seeing like thinking about 449 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:37.400 like using violence for like good reasons, but like kind of how that can 450 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:43.119 be this dark path and you know, and kind of contemplating like, well, 451 00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:46.200 what level of violence, you know, And this is person who's I 452 00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.680 mean at the time was a good friend of mine and we didn't have a 453 00:32:49.680 --> 00:32:52.799 falling out. We've just you know, grown apart because we don't have that 454 00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:58.160 shared interest at the moment. But like who also, you know, did 455 00:32:58.599 --> 00:33:00.799 serious harm to a another good friend of mine, you know, I mean, 456 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:06.400 but not much longer and um, and was closer to whatever at the 457 00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:10.000 point being that, like, you know, I've seen this kind of like 458 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:15.640 you know, to quote Martin blank and eventually you get to like it, 459 00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:21.640 and like it's that doesn't mean you're necessarily always gonna like it. And if 460 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:25.920 you really cause serious harm, like I think it there's I mean, I've 461 00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:36.240 had regretful kind of feelings about even you know, causing significant injury to someone 462 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:40.519 who like maybe I mean, someone who wasn't didn't seem like the best dude, 463 00:33:40.759 --> 00:33:45.640 you know, had done several things that I thought were kind of harmful, 464 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:50.279 and and still afterwards, like I was like, oh, I don't 465 00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:52.440 I don't like this, you know, But at the same time, like 466 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:54.240 a bunch of people are like, oh, that was so cool, you 467 00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:58.480 know, And it's like and just in the context of martial arts, it's 468 00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:00.720 like it was really cool. It was like, you know, it's like 469 00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:04.279 he's doing a back kick and I slept it, and then I kicked him 470 00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:06.880 in the face with just the flat of my foot across his whole face. 471 00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:12.159 And it's like that moment of like just landing like a really solid shot is 472 00:34:12.199 --> 00:34:16.079 like very satisfying, you know, but then seeing just like blood pouring out 473 00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:19.840 of their nose and like they're just like done for the day. It's like 474 00:34:20.840 --> 00:34:25.320 I had this very opposite feeling, you know. Yeah, and none everybody 475 00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:28.920 has that, though, and so I would say, like, if you 476 00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:35.239 don't have that contrary feeling at the same time, I'm concerned, yeah, 477 00:34:35.280 --> 00:34:39.599 you know, and and so well documented the reason why it takes me the 478 00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:43.039 reasons why. But one of the big reasons why people are able to be 479 00:34:43.079 --> 00:34:45.159 so cruel to each other on the internet is you never see that, you 480 00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:49.840 know, like, even if you're bullying someone in school or something, you 481 00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:52.440 see their face fall and like some part of that registers and most of you 482 00:34:52.480 --> 00:34:58.480 ignore it because you're fourteen and an idiot, but like, yeah, you 483 00:34:58.599 --> 00:35:00.199 hurt, you say something visibly hurt full to somebody if you don't like it, 484 00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.760 like you're they're always often a little party, right like, yeah, 485 00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:07.920 and so where do you think where do you think Batman is on that? 486 00:35:07.000 --> 00:35:12.440 How do you think Batman feels about And granted, he's a character who has 487 00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:17.039 been his stories of being told for eighty five years by now, yeah, 488 00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:21.079 so there's eight million different versions of it, but how how do you kind 489 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:25.239 of understand the struggle he's going through. So I would say that in this 490 00:35:25.760 --> 00:35:32.639 particular story, in this particular rendering of this particular story, I think he's 491 00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:37.159 a little closer to the Matt Murdoch, you know, Daredevil kind of let 492 00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:44.079 the devil out sort of you know, um of like there is a part 493 00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:51.400 of him that is still very angry and still takes some pleasure in in in 494 00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:57.400 the farm to people that he thinks maybe less about deserve it, but kind 495 00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:00.000 of maybe maybe do deserve Maybe that is kind of how he's look at it, 496 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:07.239 you know. I think that's probably partially a reflection of the writer or 497 00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:12.519 writers, And I think there are other Batman stories where I don't feel that's 498 00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:15.679 the case. I certainly don't feel that, particularly in the animated series. 499 00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:21.039 I don't feel at all in the Justice League series, you know, in 500 00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:25.639 terms of this, Like in those he feels very pragmatic and very you know, 501 00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:30.000 I'm going to do what I need to do to make the world the 502 00:36:30.000 --> 00:36:34.440 way I want it to be, and there's this kind of level of detachment 503 00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:40.519 that I feel like my favorite Batman's have achieved, you know. And you 504 00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:44.360 know, I think when we I think it was when we talked about the 505 00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:49.920 Dark Night, you know, and maybe Batman begins, but you know, 506 00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:52.119 I think you were talking about the kind of the anger you know, and 507 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:59.679 them in that aspect, and I was saying that I didn't particularly feel that. 508 00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:04.320 I think that's very much me projecting onto that, and I think perhaps 509 00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:06.280 that's you projecting onto that. I don't know. I don't want to say 510 00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.719 that that is, but go ahead, I was you canna say, like, 511 00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:15.360 I mean, the idea that like some emotional assessment of another person doesn't 512 00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:19.559 involve any degree of projection is kind of silly. I'm sure, right how 513 00:37:19.880 --> 00:37:22.039 the world? So yeah, I mean, we're always seeing three things through 514 00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:24.920 our own lens, right, That's that's the only lens we have. We 515 00:37:24.960 --> 00:37:29.920 can listen to how other people see them and then gain a portion of that 516 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.320 perspective. But we can't live that perspective, right, We can only live 517 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:38.800 through our own lives and see through our own eyes really and so or metaphorically. 518 00:37:40.000 --> 00:37:47.199 So I feel like I don't know where each Batman lands on kind of 519 00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:52.760 that spectrum of I enjoy this, but I'm not doing it because I'm enjoying 520 00:37:52.760 --> 00:37:55.639 it. I'm almost doing it in spite of the fact that I enjoy it 521 00:37:55.920 --> 00:38:00.320 because I don't want to be doing it because I enjoy it. I'm doing 522 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:02.119 it because I think it needs to be done, and thus I'm holding myself 523 00:38:02.159 --> 00:38:08.920 back or the kind of you know, the batman who started in that place 524 00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:15.639 and then worked through it and is now this kind of I would say, 525 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:20.840 kind of more fully realized, kind of like in charge of himself and his 526 00:38:21.159 --> 00:38:27.119 emotion, like has acknowledged all the emotions and then let them go kind of 527 00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:30.920 right, because it's like I don't I wouldn't say, like push them away, 528 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:35.320 right, because I think that's very unhealthy and some Batman's are very unhealthy, 529 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:37.960 you know. But I think I think it's up to somewhat up to 530 00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:43.800 the audience to interpret it, and definitely up to the writers and the actors 531 00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:50.000 to kind of decide what they're going for. So I think I'm similar to 532 00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:52.559 you, if a little different. And part of why I want to have 533 00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:54.800 this discussion is I think it really is going to it's gonna really inform the 534 00:38:54.840 --> 00:38:58.519 next question that I want to ask, which is specifically, like, how 535 00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:01.280 do we feel about Batman recruiting children to help him? Because a lot of 536 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:06.280 it is him feeling like he's helping those kids with the same struggle. So 537 00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:12.119 just kind of bookmarking that for the future. And I will name from beginning 538 00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.760 that the way I my lens for this, because it clearly affects this although 539 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:22.079 it's one that I've studied objectively as well as feelings subjectively. I'm a person 540 00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:25.159 who has compulsions. I'm a person who has an addictive behavior. I have 541 00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:30.199 never had a chemical addiction of any kind, although I am the descendant of 542 00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:36.159 someone who does. But I certainly have had addictive behavior, and I have 543 00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:40.519 had compulsive behavior, and a lot of what I have studied and a lot 544 00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:45.599 of what I've found in myself and in like the stuff that I've studied, 545 00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:49.559 especially in terms of reading a lot about alcoholism, because that was what my 546 00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:52.239 family had and other things like that. But also in terms of other kind 547 00:39:52.239 --> 00:40:00.480 of again non chemically based things, is that in many ways, like the 548 00:40:00.159 --> 00:40:07.920 having a goal of the compulsion goes away or the desire for it is basically 549 00:40:07.960 --> 00:40:15.000 unobtainable. What is obtainable is two things. One is that you can and 550 00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:19.639 really the healthiest part of it is you can look to what are the emotional 551 00:40:19.719 --> 00:40:23.559 needs or the emotional unprocessed trauma or whatever it is that's making you want to 552 00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:28.599 do those things and deal with that. So in my case, for example, 553 00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:31.199 like I was definitely you know, like addicted to seeking out people to 554 00:40:31.280 --> 00:40:35.760 date or to flirt with or get validation from, and that came from a 555 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:39.119 lot of self esteem issues that I've definitely been able to work through. But 556 00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:42.719 also that there's a sense of just as you were kind of saying, as 557 00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:45.199 you get to more and more of a sense of peace, you know, 558 00:40:45.199 --> 00:40:49.800 as you were kind of talking about like this fully realized, actualized version of 559 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.719 Batman, I was thinking about things I've read by people who have been you 560 00:40:52.719 --> 00:40:58.199 know, alcoholics, but have been sober for thirty forty years, and they'll 561 00:40:58.239 --> 00:41:00.519 say that, like, yeah, still get the urge to have a drink, 562 00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:05.199 but in some persons said, it's like, you know, kind of 563 00:41:05.239 --> 00:41:07.039 the urge that I have to go be an NBA basketball star. I know 564 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:10.400 it's not realistic in any way, shape or form, gets still there and 565 00:41:10.440 --> 00:41:13.840 I think if I gave into it, it would come back with a vengeance 566 00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:17.159 real fast. But it's by now very easy for me to ignore. So 567 00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:22.199 with all that as context, I kind of see Batman in that regard that 568 00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:25.320 I think of him as someone who in a lot of ways, I think 569 00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:30.079 of Batman as a much healthier version of Dexter. And you can say, 570 00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:32.639 in part that's because of different writers, but also because, like Dexter, 571 00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:37.320 has what happened to him happen at two and in a far more bloody and 572 00:41:37.360 --> 00:41:43.360 gruesome way than happens to young Bruce Wayne. But the idea being, and 573 00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:46.639 here I'm kind of quoting the people from DC on Screen podcast Jason and not 574 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:52.840 Jason and Todd David, and that would be an amazing pair of name. 575 00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:57.039 If anyone is out there named Jason and Todd, please tell me and your 576 00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:00.079 friends please do a Batman podcast or to a pod specificly on the Robbins. 577 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:07.480 Get someone named Robin actually anyway, moving one, but the point being, 578 00:42:07.639 --> 00:42:09.519 I think this horrible thing happens to him. Yeah. Sorry, So what 579 00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:15.480 they were saying on that podcast DC on Screen is that with most superheroes, 580 00:42:15.559 --> 00:42:20.239 like he is Clark Kent and he becomes Superman, but that with Batman, 581 00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:24.119 he is Batman and Bruce Wayne is his altar, is his disguise, and 582 00:42:24.559 --> 00:42:28.679 kind of the idea being that, like because it had a fundamental part of 583 00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.119 him not just wants to be Batman, but needs to be Batman, needs 584 00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:39.039 to do something, be personally involved in the effort to not let what happened 585 00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:44.000 to him happen to other people. Now, even just saying that is that 586 00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.199 that is a much healthier version of I want to go punish the people who 587 00:42:47.239 --> 00:42:51.840 do those things. And I think they're linked. But I think again that 588 00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:54.239 kind of like healthy self actualization can help turn it in that other direction. 589 00:42:55.239 --> 00:43:00.440 But yeah, to me, he strikes me as someone who is over the 590 00:43:00.440 --> 00:43:04.239 course of the stories, he learns to control it more and more and and 591 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:06.639 is it and and that's I think a lot of part of what he's trying 592 00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:08.920 to do with Jason is trying to be like, you know, if you're 593 00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:12.559 given to that anger, if you let it be motivated out of anger. 594 00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.800 And here I'm also projecting as someone who loves Star Wars because this is very 595 00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:22.320 much a path exactly I mean, and that's exactly that's that's the Huntress character, 596 00:43:22.519 --> 00:43:27.480 that's Phantasm character. That's a lot of these characters who are kind of 597 00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:30.480 when they're set up as a foil to Batman because they're kind of Batman but 598 00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:35.159 even darker. Like to me, the discussions between Batman and the Phantasm, 599 00:43:35.280 --> 00:43:37.000 it's the exact same as the Potisher and Daredevil, you know, It's that 600 00:43:37.079 --> 00:43:40.159 it's that one more person who's doing that. Where all this is going is 601 00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:44.000 I want to pose a hypothetical and see if you feel about the same way 602 00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.440 I do, which is that I think for a lot of Batman's career, 603 00:43:49.159 --> 00:43:53.400 not by the point he reaches that complete total self actualization, you know that. 604 00:43:53.440 --> 00:43:55.159 I think he does have, as you said, in Batman, the 605 00:43:55.159 --> 00:44:00.039 animated series and the Justice League shows that come after it. But I think 606 00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:06.159 a lot of versions of Batman they have that level of control. But it 607 00:44:06.199 --> 00:44:10.559 occurs to me that I have never seen him in a situation where he comes 608 00:44:10.679 --> 00:44:15.960 upon a young boy or a young child screaming because his parents have just been 609 00:44:16.039 --> 00:44:22.079 murdered and the murderers right there. Because and I say that because there's a 610 00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:25.079 part of me that thinks that that would sort of be the hardest test for 611 00:44:25.119 --> 00:44:30.320 Batman. He just see so clearly and so viscerally what happened to him. 612 00:44:30.599 --> 00:44:34.639 And granted he does that's very much what happens to all the robins, and 613 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:37.719 that's kind of where he comes upon them. But to me, I think 614 00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:40.320 that's the and I think he would I think he would still pass that test 615 00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:44.599 most of the time. But I think that's that that that that to me 616 00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:46.159 is kind of the the apex of what I'm getting out of that sort of 617 00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:49.960 like I do think that Batman still has that like there is a part of 618 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:52.159 him that likes it a little bit, but he makes sure not to let 619 00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:57.000 that out because I'm rambling a bit. But here's the one other point that 620 00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:59.400 I wanted to put on is to me, I think an essential part of 621 00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:01.679 this, it's the safety valve. It's the you know, kind of like 622 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:07.480 and and again getting away from chemical dependencies. But even there, there's a 623 00:45:07.480 --> 00:45:10.360 lot of research that shows that like the quit cold Turkey model doesn't actually work, 624 00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:13.840 and that there's some extent of like, you know, can you have 625 00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:19.679 a much more controlled, regulated use of a thing, maybe not a chemical 626 00:45:19.719 --> 00:45:22.199 thing, but like a thing that you're addicted to or your compulsions to, 627 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:24.880 instead of trying to quit cold turkey? And to me, there's there's some 628 00:45:24.960 --> 00:45:29.400 of that, Like when he goes out as Batman, it's letting out the 629 00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:31.039 steam. It's letting it because if it builds up and builds up and builds 630 00:45:31.079 --> 00:45:35.000 up and he isn't Batman for a long time, then yeah, maybe he 631 00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:37.480 is going to just snap or you know, go do something that he doesn't 632 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:42.159 want to do. Yeah, I mean, well, so, first of 633 00:45:42.239 --> 00:45:45.960 all, I think the quick cold turkey does work for some people sometimes definitely, 634 00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:51.920 but it definitely is not a universal This is a way that will definitely 635 00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:54.159 work for everybody. Right, The twelve step model has a much higher you 636 00:45:54.199 --> 00:45:57.360 know, failure rate than people often like to talk about it, but it 637 00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:00.280 absolutely does work for something people. Yeah, I mean I know people you 638 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:04.760 know seventeen years or whatever and it's like, you know, it's worked for 639 00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:07.320 them, and then other people it's like you know, in and out and 640 00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.800 try this, try that, and nothing has so or something else has, 641 00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:14.800 Right, I mean, yeah, for some people, it is like, 642 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:20.039 you know, a little bit of something is functional, you know, personally, 643 00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:24.639 Like I also have a I don't know if I used to say kind 644 00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:29.800 of addictive, but like I think just kind of extremist. Like I'm just 645 00:46:29.840 --> 00:46:32.239 like, this is either something I want to do a lot of or I'm 646 00:46:32.280 --> 00:46:35.920 not going to do it. You know. It's like I've I've always had 647 00:46:35.920 --> 00:46:39.519 a hard time being like this is a thing that I'm I'm going to just 648 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:43.800 do a little of. It's like that's never been a thing that's just all 649 00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:46.480 that interesting to me. Most of the time. I'm experimenting with it with 650 00:46:46.559 --> 00:46:51.239 podcasting now, but yeah, you know, we'll see, we'll see how 651 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:55.480 it goes. Um. But like, yeah, I and for that reason, 652 00:46:55.599 --> 00:46:59.039 I was just like, no, I'm not going to do any of 653 00:46:59.079 --> 00:47:04.519 those drugs, because you know, I understand that many are physically addictive, 654 00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:07.360 others are habit forming in ways that maybe don't have the same chemical dependency, 655 00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:10.519 but like I'm just like, I know, I you know, I mean, 656 00:47:10.639 --> 00:47:15.480 I remember when a friend of mine tried coke for the first time and 657 00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:16.599 was like, well, you know, probably I'll just do it once and 658 00:47:16.679 --> 00:47:20.360 whenever I'm like yeah, but like what's the upside, Like what are you 659 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:22.800 hoping for? You know, like what's the best outcome? Like you don't 660 00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:28.039 like it or like and I don't mean this as like a moral judgment or 661 00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:30.119 whatever, but it's just like, you know, it's expensive and harmful to 662 00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:34.559 your body, and so it's like, you know, if that's what you're 663 00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:37.559 into, that's what you're into. But like in terms of like getting into 664 00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.960 it, it's just like strategically, I'm just like, what's the plan? 665 00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:44.840 You know, And it's like, well, let me give a more specific 666 00:47:44.920 --> 00:47:49.159 example of a place where and you can argue whether the word addiction fits here 667 00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:52.239 or not, or compulsion or whatever. But I am someone who's always had 668 00:47:52.280 --> 00:47:57.239 of eating problems, and I have a very slow metabolism. I don't really 669 00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.159 know what it feels like to be hungry. I mostly eat because I want 670 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.079 self gratification. I want a physical sensation that will take me out of my 671 00:48:05.119 --> 00:48:08.840 brain. I want to reward myself. I want validation all sorts of physical 672 00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:13.239 things, and often like eating, like you know, foods that are quote 673 00:48:13.320 --> 00:48:15.519 unquote bad for me, you know, And I should just say quickly here, 674 00:48:15.599 --> 00:48:20.320 this is not a diet culture rant diet culture's bullshit. People are beautiful 675 00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:23.440 in all body sizes and shapes. Don't ever feel like you got to be 676 00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:27.360 pressured to that. I'm just talking about. I felt like my eating was 677 00:48:27.480 --> 00:48:30.719 out of I wasn't in control of what I was eating, and I didn't 678 00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:34.000 like that feeling, and I was having negative physical effects on me, primarily 679 00:48:34.000 --> 00:48:37.320 because of my disability. So quick disclaimer there for that being said, What 680 00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:40.800 I would find is that I would eat foods that were not the best for 681 00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:45.960 me without really being fully conscious of it or without really wanting to. And 682 00:48:46.000 --> 00:48:52.639 I've attempted to quit cold turkey many times and it never ever works. But 683 00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:58.559 I have found that if I let myself say one day a week, I'm 684 00:48:58.559 --> 00:49:02.880 going to have something like that in a moderate proportion, then if it's Tuesday 685 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:07.280 and I really want that thing, I can tell myself, you know what, 686 00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:10.920 you're gonna get it in three days and that's gonna be okay, and 687 00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:13.599 that when I have it, I can say, you know what, I 688 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:16.800 only need a couple of pieces of of the you know, fried fried tofu 689 00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:19.760 or you know whatever it is, or the candy or whatever it is, 690 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:22.599 because I can always have it another day. Yes, I was gonna say 691 00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:28.719 something like fried chicken and then to fall, I'm just like which as the 692 00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:34.239 treat Yeah no, no, that was a weird, like hip fake towards 693 00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:37.360 trying to respect the vegan. That's not how I meant it. Um, 694 00:49:37.400 --> 00:49:40.360 But yeah, and like and so for me, And again, I'm sure 695 00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:45.079 all of you have suggestions on the better way to deal with my eating issues. 696 00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:51.599 This is one hundred percent not in invitation. Please no feedback on that 697 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:54.239 regard. I just want to use it as an example of if I leave 698 00:49:54.280 --> 00:49:59.280 myself that little steam release, it works. And so I feel like, 699 00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:01.320 in that same kind of a way, if Batman can tell himself like, 700 00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:05.159 I'm not gonna go kill this person, I'm not gonna. I'm not going 701 00:50:05.199 --> 00:50:07.519 to give into that part of me that wants what Dexter wants, right, 702 00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:13.159 But yeah, I am gonna go punch a bad guy. And it's I'm 703 00:50:13.159 --> 00:50:15.079 going to tell myself all the ways in which this is restrained. I'm not 704 00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:20.360 gonna, but it feeds some part of me that has been there ever since 705 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:24.039 I watched my parents got murdered. It makes sense for him, Yeah, 706 00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:30.440 I mean with the addendum that it's not oh well, on Friday night, 707 00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:34.239 I'll go out and punch bad guys. It's every night, you know, 708 00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:38.039 it's yeah, every night, all night, like, except when he has 709 00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:42.000 to pretend to be Bruce Wayne, or pretend to be the Bruce Wayne. 710 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:47.199 That's a mask, you know. So I I hear what you're saying, 711 00:50:47.239 --> 00:50:52.679 and I think that's a very interesting perspective and a completely valid interpretation, you 712 00:50:52.760 --> 00:50:59.400 know. And you know, I wouldn't necessarily say that I've come around to 713 00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:02.320 share that interpretation, but I think that, you know, I mean, 714 00:51:02.880 --> 00:51:06.920 like you said, it's character with eighty five year history, Like some of 715 00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.960 the versions are definitely that, you know, and some of them are definitely 716 00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:15.000 definitely less that I'd say, but yeah, and many of them are written 717 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:19.880 interesting, Like everything I've said is based on our current understanding psychologically of compulsions 718 00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:23.320 and addictions R trauma that we didn't have for most of history. Sure, 719 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:28.440 yeah, yeah, exactly, and some of which is probably quite wrong and 720 00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:34.639 will there will be a you know, more more nuanced or more effective understanding 721 00:51:34.679 --> 00:51:37.719 in ten twenty thirty years, who knows, you know. Yeah, I 722 00:51:37.800 --> 00:51:43.239 mean, even with Batman, that is both one of I think at times 723 00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:47.360 frustrating when it's just used as a throwaway attack on him, but also potentially 724 00:51:47.360 --> 00:51:52.639 really interesting questions. Is the now that we know what we know today, 725 00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:57.719 Okay, what if Alfred had said maybe instead of kickboxing, I'm going to 726 00:51:57.800 --> 00:52:00.880 take you to trauma therapy, know, like would that have helped in some 727 00:52:00.960 --> 00:52:04.360 way? And I think those are interesting questions or you know, like, 728 00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:09.199 um, we the movie The Insuperherothics, we did an episode about, you 729 00:52:09.239 --> 00:52:15.559 know, in gross point blank where Martin is in therapy. Like it's not 730 00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:19.760 the same thing. But I think Bruce talking out his feelings to Clark Kent 731 00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:25.440 is a level of self reflection and of seeking outside you know, response to 732 00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:29.880 that reflection that I don't think we would have seen, you know, in 733 00:52:29.880 --> 00:52:34.480 the fifties, the seventies and the nineties. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, I 734 00:52:34.840 --> 00:52:38.760 agree. And you know, it's it's like the end of Iron Man three 735 00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:43.679 also right right where it's like it's it's therapy, but it's not therapy. 736 00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:46.159 It's like I'm not that kind of doctor, you know, but but it 737 00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:49.559 is. I mean, but that's the thing though, it's like talking to 738 00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:54.800 your friends about things seriously and really doing deep introspection like it is therapy. 739 00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:58.920 Like they're not a professional therapist, but it's like, I mean, it's 740 00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:04.159 not literally therapy, but it's like it can serve a lot of this therapeutic 741 00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:07.159 that's a better word, thank you. Yes, exactly exactly, it can 742 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:12.519 be therapeutic. Sometimes it can be really bad. I mean, you know 743 00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:16.360 what it depends. You know, as the person who has resting therapy face 744 00:53:17.119 --> 00:53:21.760 but also for a long time had a need to be needed. You can 745 00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:24.000 get into that relationship with a friend and it's codependent and bad and terrible, 746 00:53:24.039 --> 00:53:28.760 and be very careful of that. Yeah, exactly. It's it's something that 747 00:53:28.840 --> 00:53:31.880 can be good and can be less less good. Yea, Yeah, talk 748 00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:35.440 to professionals, but also talk to friends. We'll talk to you know, 749 00:53:35.519 --> 00:53:38.000 colleagues. So all of this anything, I think it's very important we had 750 00:53:38.039 --> 00:53:42.519 all this discussion first because it can already inform the second part of the discussion, 751 00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:45.559 because I actually have a very different answer to why I think the Redhood 752 00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:49.880 story is so interesting because all what you said I think is true. Yeah, 753 00:53:50.320 --> 00:53:52.119 but to me, the Red Hood story, what would it really rate. 754 00:53:52.360 --> 00:54:00.679 What it also raises is this question of is Bruce helping these traumatized kids 755 00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:07.119 by making them his sidekick and turning them into Robin and kind of a chance 756 00:54:07.159 --> 00:54:12.719 to unpack and analyze all of that because and that that, I think especially 757 00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:16.960 has become a very popular thing to do. And I think it's not unrelated 758 00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:21.119 to the fact that a lot of the night Wing stories, particularly Titans, 759 00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:23.360 but a lot of other ones, start out with Dick Grayson being like really 760 00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:27.679 mad at Batman and really wanting like some separation from him, and that that 761 00:54:27.800 --> 00:54:31.360 often that is kind of them that the Jason Todd's story is often told as 762 00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:37.880 the Jason sees Nightwing being rebellious against Batman, and so Jason's like, no, 763 00:54:37.880 --> 00:54:38.880 no, no, no, no, I have to be utterly loyal. 764 00:54:38.920 --> 00:54:42.760 I have to be completely loyal, and that that's kind of like that's 765 00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:46.239 why he falls so far in some ways. So let me kind of just 766 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:51.079 ask you this nice, simple, basic question. Is Batman helping or hurting 767 00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:57.360 kids like Tim and Dick and Jason by making them robins? Simple binary right, 768 00:54:57.599 --> 00:55:05.239 yes? Simple binary yes? Helping anwer It's I mean, he's helping 769 00:55:05.239 --> 00:55:07.800 them do what they want to do when they choose to be Robin, you 770 00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:15.840 know, And I mean I respect the agency of you know, humans from 771 00:55:15.840 --> 00:55:20.480 a pretty young age, you know, like I think if a two year 772 00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:23.280 old wants to walk into traffic, you should stop them, you know, 773 00:55:23.719 --> 00:55:27.320 Like I'm not like, oh, well, that's their choice, you know. 774 00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:29.840 And you could say, yeah, well, if a ten year old 775 00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:32.639 wants to go out and fight crime, like maybe that's like a two year 776 00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:38.920 old stepping into traffic, right. So I think there's a point at which 777 00:55:39.679 --> 00:55:45.159 it's reasonable to kind of take them into the field with you when that's what 778 00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:51.559 they want to do. I probably think that point is a lot younger than 779 00:55:51.599 --> 00:55:57.079 most people, or I certainly don't think it's based on some arbitrary number of 780 00:55:57.119 --> 00:55:59.840 cycles around the sun. You know, it's like, oh, well, 781 00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:01.960 eighteen, yeah, you can get a gun and then go off to war 782 00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:07.679 and get killed and kill people. I don't know if seventeen can't. I 783 00:56:07.719 --> 00:56:08.639 don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you agree with a 784 00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:15.599 statement that for some people thirteen is old enough and for some people seventeen isn't 785 00:56:15.639 --> 00:56:19.760 old enough, because like I'm actually youre sure in very different ways. Yeah, 786 00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:23.320 absolutely, And so I think most of these kids have gone through certain 787 00:56:23.360 --> 00:56:30.079 trauma. I think kids like Jason, actually, I think Jason kind of 788 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:32.880 saw more of the world than Dick did at a certain age, right. 789 00:56:32.920 --> 00:56:36.079 I mean Dick literally saw a lot of the world because it's like in a 790 00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:38.559 circus, so they're traveling and stuff, I think, But like, you 791 00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:42.920 know, I mean he was like a street kid, right, Like yeah, 792 00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:46.760 I mean Batman met him when he stole the wheels off the Batmobile and 793 00:56:46.800 --> 00:56:52.000 Batman's like that, that's impressive, you know, kid did this, and 794 00:56:52.079 --> 00:56:58.199 so like, yeah, I think it's a subjective judgment. I don't think 795 00:56:58.199 --> 00:57:02.320 it's the sort of thing where you know, a particular age is the age, 796 00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:05.519 right. It's not like, oh yeah, well thirteen year olds are 797 00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:07.000 definitely fine, and you're wrong that it's eighteen. It's like, no, 798 00:57:07.079 --> 00:57:12.760 there's it's not a magical time when somebody becomes old enough to do really any 799 00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:15.800 given thing, in my opinion. But you know, in this case, 800 00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:22.639 it's like it's I mean, here's the thing. It's like, this is 801 00:57:22.679 --> 00:57:27.960 a world of comic book physics, you know, and comic book martial arts, 802 00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:30.920 and if you're good enough, you can always dodge the bullet, you 803 00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:36.360 know, and like that's not that's not the way our world works, you 804 00:57:36.400 --> 00:57:40.000 know. But like so I think within the comic of the context of the 805 00:57:40.000 --> 00:57:44.920 comics. I think it makes a fair amount of sense. I definitely think 806 00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:49.880 that the you know, the kind of teenage Robbins generally seem like a better 807 00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:55.719 idea than like ten to eleven year old Robbins, you know. But yeah, 808 00:57:55.880 --> 00:58:00.480 I mean in terms of long term helping or hurting, Like, I 809 00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:06.480 don't know. To me, it just it almost like that's not the question. 810 00:58:06.599 --> 00:58:09.280 The question is like, was it their choice or was it something? 811 00:58:09.320 --> 00:58:12.760 And it was like, hey, kid, you want to dress up like 812 00:58:12.840 --> 00:58:15.559 me and go out in the street and you know, do cool stuff. 813 00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:19.320 Oh yeah, we're going to get shot at and you know, we're gonna 814 00:58:19.360 --> 00:58:22.440 be hitting people and stuff. It's like, I don't think that's good. 815 00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:25.480 But like you know when when they're like, no, I want to be 816 00:58:25.599 --> 00:58:29.719 like Batman, and it's like, I don't know that's what they want, 817 00:58:29.960 --> 00:58:35.199 you know, And I just I respect that their own choice. Basically, 818 00:58:36.599 --> 00:58:38.960 Yeah, I think I'm kind of in a similar place, though I'm a 819 00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:43.519 little more critical of Batman, but I think in the but I think that 820 00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:47.280 I understand it. And again, to me and I have a therapy background, 821 00:58:47.320 --> 00:58:50.719 both of someone who's been a patient for most of my life, but 822 00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:52.400 also someone who has a lot of training in it and was did a lot 823 00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:57.599 of I was not a licensed therapist as a pastor, but I had therapyt 824 00:58:57.599 --> 00:59:04.920 of training because there's a pastoral counseling aspect and all that. The harm reduction 825 00:59:05.000 --> 00:59:07.800 model is to me a very important way of thinking about these things. And 826 00:59:07.800 --> 00:59:10.679 that it's like sometimes you like you judge, we can have a sort of 827 00:59:10.679 --> 00:59:14.239 same and of like Okay, well this person is doing a bad thing, 828 00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:16.800 but actually look like, okay, what are they doing and what are the 829 00:59:16.840 --> 00:59:22.679 alternatives? And is this reducing harm? You know? And that's so you 830 00:59:22.719 --> 00:59:24.679 know, a lot of times like behavior that we can see in a vacuum 831 00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:29.480 as problematic because like, well, they don't have the alternative, or they 832 00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:36.440 don't think they have the alternative. And I think for me, knowing everything 833 00:59:36.480 --> 00:59:39.159 I know now about childhood trauma and violence and all the rest of it, 834 00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:45.039 I would be hard pressed to say that I think Batman's solution to his childhood 835 00:59:45.039 --> 00:59:49.440 trauma is something I could like put a healthy stamp on. But I think 836 00:59:49.440 --> 00:59:52.199 it's a very I think it is very good harm reduction. I think he 837 00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:58.519 has found what is the best way he can conceive of with his mentality in 838 00:59:58.559 --> 01:00:00.119 the world he was created in, which is not a world in which people, 839 01:00:00.199 --> 01:00:04.760 especially not you know, independent men, went to therapy to deal with 840 01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:07.079 And I think what he's kind of doing, and to me, I think 841 01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:09.599 the stories I most resonate with is where he sees, as you said, 842 01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:12.480 they already want to be, but what they want to do. They want 843 01:00:12.480 --> 01:00:15.679 to become the phantasm. They want to become the punisher instead of becoming Batman. 844 01:00:16.760 --> 01:00:21.760 And so he's kind of saying, look, I'm walking this path. 845 01:00:21.880 --> 01:00:27.079 I want to give you the chance to walk it too. He's kind of 846 01:00:27.079 --> 01:00:30.039 giving them the third way in a way. Yeah, I think so, 847 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:35.559 Yeah, And I think then the question can be by giving them the third 848 01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:37.760 way, is he cutting off their chance to find the fourth, the fifth, 849 01:00:37.760 --> 01:00:40.159 and the sixth way? Right? But also you know, but that's 850 01:00:40.199 --> 01:00:45.000 again what the solution is. Yeah, And here also I think there's a 851 01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:49.840 level in which connecting it to Dexter makes a lot of sense because and forgive 852 01:00:49.920 --> 01:00:52.039 me for spoilers for a show that's now like what ten or fifteen years old 853 01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:57.599 times a flat circle. One of the things I think it's like they have 854 01:00:57.639 --> 01:01:00.920 to keep coming up with new ideas to make new seasons work. And so 855 01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:05.320 one of the things that happens is he frequently finds people who have the same 856 01:01:05.360 --> 01:01:09.000 compulsions that he does, and sometimes he finds them and these are some of 857 01:01:09.039 --> 01:01:13.760 the worst villains he deals with, but who never had the Harry that the 858 01:01:13.840 --> 01:01:19.719 father figure to teach him how to, if not control, direct the colon 859 01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:23.079 and a healthier way channel. Yeah, but sometimes he finds someone who's the 860 01:01:23.079 --> 01:01:30.079 other direction, who once they actually do kill the specific person that wronged them, 861 01:01:30.519 --> 01:01:32.239 or someone who's a good stand in for the specific person that wronged them, 862 01:01:32.360 --> 01:01:37.960 they're like, I'm good, I'm okay now, And it's kind of 863 01:01:37.960 --> 01:01:39.719 heartbreaking for Dexter, but it makes a lot of sense of him being able 864 01:01:39.719 --> 01:01:43.840 to be like, oh, I guess it's good. You can just move 865 01:01:43.880 --> 01:01:46.199 on. Yeah, And I think that's an element of the I think in 866 01:01:46.239 --> 01:01:50.039 some ways that's a part of the night Wing story that I think is really 867 01:01:50.039 --> 01:01:52.639 interesting, and that is in some of the night Wing stuf, at least 868 01:01:52.639 --> 01:01:55.000 that I've seen. He never speaks ab in those terms, but he kind 869 01:01:55.000 --> 01:02:00.360 of does. He kind of brings up this idea of like Bruce did worked 870 01:02:00.360 --> 01:02:04.119 for him, I don't need it the same way I wasn't affected in the 871 01:02:04.159 --> 01:02:06.920 same way, and I thought I was as a kid, and I still 872 01:02:07.000 --> 01:02:08.800 do want to do some good, but it's not the same for me. 873 01:02:09.320 --> 01:02:14.599 Yeah, yeah, I really like the ways in which, you know, 874 01:02:14.719 --> 01:02:19.280 Nightwing and Batman are are different, you know, and and kind of the 875 01:02:19.280 --> 01:02:25.239 way the different Robbins and eventual Batman like become they sort of you know, 876 01:02:25.280 --> 01:02:30.119 show how there are different paths along you know, branching from you know, 877 01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:35.559 the same initial path right unique you know, I mean you have Damien, 878 01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:38.519 who's like more Jason than Jason. You know, you have Dick, who's 879 01:02:38.599 --> 01:02:42.800 like just it's like, yeah, you know, I kind of did all 880 01:02:42.800 --> 01:02:45.639 that and I'm good now. And I mean there's obviously different versions of Barbara, 881 01:02:45.719 --> 01:02:49.880 but like the Batman beyond Barbara was like, yeah, I don't I 882 01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:52.639 don't need to wear the suit anymore. Like she's still in you know, 883 01:02:52.719 --> 01:02:58.199 she becomes a police commissioner, so she decides to go down her dad's route 884 01:02:58.239 --> 01:03:02.000 instead of you know, batman hands route. But like, um, yeah, 885 01:03:02.199 --> 01:03:07.280 I think it's interesting to see like how I mean, there's I think 886 01:03:07.280 --> 01:03:09.840 you might be thinking specifically, especially of the fifth season of Dexter, right 887 01:03:09.880 --> 01:03:16.280 where Yeah, it's a Julia Stiles season, you know, and I season 888 01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:20.280 four, I like almost quit the show, and then like I watched five 889 01:03:20.320 --> 01:03:23.239 and I was like that was that was my favorite non first two seasons of 890 01:03:23.280 --> 01:03:25.920 this show, you know, because I really did kind of like the idea 891 01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:32.360 of someone who was really angry for very legitimate reasons, you know, one 892 01:03:32.480 --> 01:03:37.559 in Vengeance wanted to stop these people doing what they were doing, and then 893 01:03:37.639 --> 01:03:40.920 did that and was like, yeah, I'm good, you know. I 894 01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:44.960 mean, there was another Batman. I think it might be Gotham my gas 895 01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:47.400 Light. I'm not sure, but there's another Gotham story we we covered. 896 01:03:47.559 --> 01:03:51.440 No, it was Long Halloween. Oh yeah, that's basically exactly that, 897 01:03:51.559 --> 01:03:53.880 right, it's someone who at the end, yeah, Batman realized, like 898 01:03:53.920 --> 01:03:57.320 spoilers from Long Halloween. Yeah, but yeah, it's exactly that. The 899 01:03:57.400 --> 01:04:00.840 person's like I did the killing, and Batman's like, yeah, I wish 900 01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:03.199 you hadn't done that, but you're done, and I believe you right exactly, 901 01:04:03.480 --> 01:04:09.920 Like you were a serial killer for a reason. Not it wasn't your 902 01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:13.400 identity, it was a thing you were doing, and you've completed that, 903 01:04:14.440 --> 01:04:18.119 all right, I guess Yeah that's that, you know, which kind of 904 01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:23.079 tangent land back to the long Halloween story, but it's relevant. It's funny 905 01:04:23.079 --> 01:04:25.719 because I'm surprised that I didn't occur to me in the moment. But I 906 01:04:26.119 --> 01:04:30.159 do think there's a flaw with that, because I wonder then what happens the 907 01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:34.400 next time someone does something truly wrong to her or someone she loves, you 908 01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:39.320 know, and like, does she remember that, Wait, this method I 909 01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:43.360 had of finding justice before worked, And I mean, you hope that nothing 910 01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:45.679 horribly tragic happens to her again? Yeah? Yeah, But then there's also 911 01:04:45.719 --> 01:04:50.800 the question of, like, if something horrily tragic happens to another person in 912 01:04:50.880 --> 01:04:54.679 her family, does she go down the same route? And then does it 913 01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:58.119 start increasing until it's like, oh, well, you you cut off my 914 01:04:58.159 --> 01:05:00.639 second cousin in traffic, So now you know I'm going to go into full 915 01:05:00.639 --> 01:05:04.000 on murder mode again. I mean, you look at how people drive, 916 01:05:04.039 --> 01:05:09.679 and like, I can't blame her, but you drive in California and fairness, 917 01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:14.480 and everyone's very Vegas. I don't know, I've seen how you drive. 918 01:05:14.800 --> 01:05:20.840 Um, I don't drive. Everybody else does cheap shot? Cheap shot? 919 01:05:21.199 --> 01:05:26.599 Um no? I UM. I think at the end of that Batman's 920 01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:29.800 like, you know, kind of I'll be watching you or something, right, 921 01:05:30.599 --> 01:05:32.440 that's fair. And if you look over all the stories over the year, 922 01:05:32.880 --> 01:05:38.960 watching a lot of people, yeah, you know, but but yeah, 923 01:05:39.800 --> 01:05:45.000 I I do think it comes down to, you know, the like, 924 01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:49.840 well, do you really think that this person is going to do this 925 01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:55.480 again? Or is this like an outlier event? Right, I mean it 926 01:05:55.599 --> 01:05:59.599 seems unlikely that something like all of that was going to happen again to that 927 01:05:59.639 --> 01:06:02.679 person, you know that was But at the same time, sure, like, 928 01:06:03.880 --> 01:06:06.400 yeah, I think you keep an eye on someone once, you know, 929 01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:10.039 once they start down that dark path. You're like, all right, 930 01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:14.119 I'm at least I got you know, yeah, we got eyes on you. 931 01:06:14.119 --> 01:06:16.519 You're being surveiled, just you know, every now and then you drop 932 01:06:16.599 --> 01:06:20.960 some kind of creepy like I'm watching you thing just to remind them, and 933 01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:25.239 then you don't actually have to watch them as much. You know, you're 934 01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:29.400 just like I saw this, you know. Anyway, back back to the 935 01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:31.960 Jason Todd of it all, I do find also that I like stories in 936 01:06:32.039 --> 01:06:39.519 which Bruce is willing to admit that he's wrong at times and grow sometimes and 937 01:06:40.760 --> 01:06:45.840 Titans, I think tights and again it's become very fashionable to dunk on Batman 938 01:06:45.880 --> 01:06:47.760 and Bruce Wayne all the time, and I think there's some very legit critique, 939 01:06:47.760 --> 01:06:50.760 and I think it's also just become kind of a meme that goes further 940 01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:56.280 than I would like in many cases, and I think Titans dumps on Batman 941 01:06:56.480 --> 01:07:00.840 a lot more than sometimes it's justified. But again, it's told mostly through 942 01:07:01.360 --> 01:07:04.519 the primary character, so it's his point of view. But one of the 943 01:07:04.519 --> 01:07:09.920 things Dick posits, which I don't think is in this version of the Red 944 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:15.800 Hood, but I like as a possible interpretation, is that when Batman takes 945 01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:19.719 on Jason Todd, he does he has lost Dick Grayson. At this point, 946 01:07:19.760 --> 01:07:24.840 Dick Grayson and him are fairly estranged, and you know, he thinks 947 01:07:24.880 --> 01:07:27.559 he did all this to be really good to Dick and to help Dick, 948 01:07:27.639 --> 01:07:30.800 and Dick is like, f you, you really screwed me up. And 949 01:07:33.199 --> 01:07:38.800 but then Dick keeps doing the same stuff though, right well right, And 950 01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:41.119 a part of the thing that Dick is dealing with is like, did you 951 01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:45.280 help me, did you make it so that this compulsion will never go away? 952 01:07:45.400 --> 01:07:46.880 Or did you give me a healthy way to deal with this? Compulsion 953 01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:50.239 or did you stop me from just getting rid of this compulsion? Sure? 954 01:07:50.920 --> 01:07:57.199 And so in there there's some level of Bruce admitting that he was trying to 955 01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:01.920 kind of like fix what he had done wrong with Dick with Ja and that 956 01:08:01.960 --> 01:08:05.239 that's part of what happens there, and that's, you know, interesting thing 957 01:08:06.559 --> 01:08:11.840 I have watched. You can comment, Okay, this is a show, 958 01:08:12.639 --> 01:08:18.920 but I think there's a it's it makes some interesting points about the characters that 959 01:08:18.960 --> 01:08:24.000 I love, and and the story that it tells to make those points is 960 01:08:24.119 --> 01:08:27.119 very bad. Okay, Um, I kind of think it was like the 961 01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:30.399 the the prequels of the like that, Oh sure, sure, yeah, 962 01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:35.319 Like you understand some things about Anakin because of them, but you're not enamored 963 01:08:35.359 --> 01:08:40.680 with the quality of the storytelling. Yeah, exactly. So let me ask 964 01:08:40.720 --> 01:08:42.560 this, though, this is the kind of last big thing I want to 965 01:08:42.680 --> 01:08:45.159 arrestle with, because they do wrestle with it in this, especially somewhat in 966 01:08:45.239 --> 01:08:48.920 Under the Red Hood, but especially in the Death and the Family where he's 967 01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:55.640 talking to to Bruce, he admits this, more it feels like it feels 968 01:08:55.640 --> 01:08:59.359 like one of the central tensions and almost like you can call it hypocrisy or 969 01:08:59.359 --> 01:09:02.159 you can call it like a tension that Bruce is wrestling with is he wants 970 01:09:02.199 --> 01:09:05.640 to give these kids a chance to go out in the field because he thinks 971 01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:11.359 they're going to do it anyway, but he also wants to protect them and 972 01:09:11.560 --> 01:09:15.239 stop them from going out in the field more than they should. And you 973 01:09:15.359 --> 01:09:19.039 see elements of this a lot, and he flat out says it to Superman 974 01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:23.880 where he says, like, I wish night Wing would stop coming to help 975 01:09:23.960 --> 01:09:27.600 me. I keep telling him to stop coming to help me, but he 976 01:09:27.680 --> 01:09:30.000 keeps doing it, and honestly, he keeps saving me. But I can't 977 01:09:30.000 --> 01:09:35.399 ever tell him that, right because it would encourage him basically right. And 978 01:09:35.439 --> 01:09:39.680 to me, I think I don't think this is which projection implied. I 979 01:09:39.680 --> 01:09:43.199 think this is very clearly supposed to be meant by the writers. Like we 980 01:09:43.239 --> 01:09:45.720 have seen that one of the things Jason wanted was more approval and more validation 981 01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:50.079 from Batman, and that he really wrestled with when Batman told him not to 982 01:09:50.119 --> 01:09:54.039 go out of things like to me, part of what I got about that 983 01:09:54.199 --> 01:09:59.119 is that his desire to protect these kids is part of what's causing them sometimes 984 01:09:59.119 --> 01:10:01.720 to do dumber and dumber things, to try and prove something to him or 985 01:10:01.720 --> 01:10:08.319 to get their validas validation or something like that. Yeah. Maybe, I 986 01:10:08.359 --> 01:10:14.800 mean I didn't really have a strong feeling that way or not that way, 987 01:10:14.840 --> 01:10:16.760 but I definitely think you know, I mean you said, you know, 988 01:10:16.880 --> 01:10:20.680 Nightwing has an annoying habit of showing up exactly when I need him to. 989 01:10:21.199 --> 01:10:25.199 But like I don't want him too because of what happened to Jason and I, 990 01:10:25.279 --> 01:10:27.920 you know, I don't want him to be getting into you know, 991 01:10:28.039 --> 01:10:33.159 danger and whatever. But like he ditches Nightwing repeatedly in Under the Redmon, 992 01:10:33.520 --> 01:10:38.000 right, like Nightwing helps with the thing. Okay, cool, now I'm 993 01:10:38.039 --> 01:10:40.600 going to go chase this thing. Now I'm gonna leave you here, bye 994 01:10:40.640 --> 01:10:43.399 bye, you know, and he's like, oh, you got injured, 995 01:10:43.399 --> 01:10:45.720 Okay, go home, you know, whereas I'm sure Batman would be like, 996 01:10:46.159 --> 01:10:50.039 just tape it up and I'll get back out there with the same injury. 997 01:10:50.199 --> 01:10:56.479 And so yeah, the idea that they are actually taking bigger risks and 998 01:10:56.600 --> 01:11:00.479 trying to be more you know, like look what I can do kind of 999 01:11:00.199 --> 01:11:05.560 yeah, Like it is funny. It's how like not encouraging someone can actually 1000 01:11:05.920 --> 01:11:10.199 encourage them more in a way, right as opposed to being like yeah you 1001 01:11:10.199 --> 01:11:13.800 did good, cool, okay. Yeah, although then again like giving the 1002 01:11:13.800 --> 01:11:15.800 positive FEVA, it's like if somebody wants your approval, they just want your 1003 01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:20.439 approval, and like, yeah, I'm I don't really know exactly the best 1004 01:11:20.439 --> 01:11:24.680 way to deal with that. I don't know. Yeah, you know, 1005 01:11:24.760 --> 01:11:28.039 I mean, there's there's real it's kind of going to what I said before 1006 01:11:28.079 --> 01:11:31.600 of like I think that for many humans, perhaps not you know, those 1007 01:11:31.640 --> 01:11:35.840 on high in the mountain like yourself, but for many humans, outside validation 1008 01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:40.680 I think is a healthy thing to desire. I think it has to be 1009 01:11:40.760 --> 01:11:46.760 mixed with a fundamentally good level of self validation and self love, and that 1010 01:11:46.880 --> 01:11:53.039 when you're seeking out outside validation to replace any sense of self worth, you 1011 01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:55.840 know, then it becomes really problematic. And I think, you know, 1012 01:11:55.880 --> 01:11:58.479 that's a question you can really look at with with night Wing, with Jason, 1013 01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:00.239 with all these other kind of people. Yeah. Yeah, I mean 1014 01:12:00.279 --> 01:12:04.439 I think I think external validation as like kind of like a line check. 1015 01:12:05.000 --> 01:12:09.239 You know, it's just sort of like, hey, I did this, 1016 01:12:09.279 --> 01:12:11.359 what do you know do you think? Do you think that is good? 1017 01:12:11.399 --> 01:12:14.479 Yeah? That's good, okay, cool, thanks, you know, or 1018 01:12:14.560 --> 01:12:16.880 like you know, oh, well, did you think about this actually? 1019 01:12:16.880 --> 01:12:18.640 And I was like, oh no, I didn't. You know. It's 1020 01:12:18.680 --> 01:12:24.199 like, you know, and it's funny because Batman will say he doesn't get 1021 01:12:24.239 --> 01:12:27.159 it. He literally pays someone to give it to him. I mean, 1022 01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:31.039 al phrase that all the time, including also sometimes calling him out when yeah, 1023 01:12:31.079 --> 01:12:36.560 yeah, Alfred's not always just Alfred almost often ends up a little bit 1024 01:12:36.680 --> 01:12:41.760 at odds or often often questioning or being like are you sure you don't want 1025 01:12:41.800 --> 01:12:44.680 to stay home? Okay? You know, I'll get the car gas stop, 1026 01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:48.319 you know kind of thing. I would argue, that's not necessarily what 1027 01:12:48.359 --> 01:12:55.079 he pays Alfred for. And I feel like Alfred pays himself out of Bruce 1028 01:12:55.079 --> 01:13:00.560 Wayne's money, you know, like I don't. I don't see Bruce writing 1029 01:13:00.680 --> 01:13:02.800 checks, you know what I mean. And I think that some of the 1030 01:13:02.800 --> 01:13:09.640 most interesting Alfred's stories are where Alfred either is unclear or even has a strong 1031 01:13:09.720 --> 01:13:15.199 idea of like is he is he working for Bruce Wayne or is he working 1032 01:13:15.279 --> 01:13:17.680 for Thomas and Martha Wayne? Right? And then I think is often one 1033 01:13:17.680 --> 01:13:23.159 of the interesting dynamics there too. Yeah, for sure. One thing I'll 1034 01:13:23.199 --> 01:13:26.479 kind of add to that is and again here maybe I'm dunking on Batman too 1035 01:13:26.520 --> 01:13:29.359 much, but I think it's something that I see acknowledge more and more, 1036 01:13:29.439 --> 01:13:33.520 and I to me, I feel like he leaning in this direction with Clark 1037 01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:42.119 in the Death of the Family one and were we going to do a Patreon 1038 01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:45.680 thing? We were? I think that's uh. This is also I have 1039 01:13:45.680 --> 01:13:49.239 a different patron than I'm gonna um and it's kind of the last point I'll 1040 01:13:49.239 --> 01:13:51.439 make and then I want to let you respond and then also bring up any 1041 01:13:51.479 --> 01:13:54.640 last things you want to do. Surprise, we had a lot to say 1042 01:13:54.680 --> 01:13:59.800 on this topic, probably me. I think I've talked about which I talked 1043 01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:01.159 to too. I went on a bunch of tangents. I was like, 1044 01:14:01.239 --> 01:14:04.840 I wonder if we'll be able to get enough at it, Like somehow, 1045 01:14:05.199 --> 01:14:12.800 somehow I still had that thought again, like, well, I thought gross 1046 01:14:12.800 --> 01:14:15.600 point blank would be the struggle but anyway, cutting off that tangent at the 1047 01:14:15.680 --> 01:14:21.560 route or no, I'm not going to get into stop st Matthew convulsion tendencies, 1048 01:14:23.319 --> 01:14:30.079 excellency can't. What I think is the other interesting tart to this is 1049 01:14:30.960 --> 01:14:36.359 the way in which Bruce doesn't want to acknowledge the family because I think when 1050 01:14:36.439 --> 01:14:43.159 when Bruce says to someone like nightwing like, yes, you're coming to save 1051 01:14:43.279 --> 01:14:46.319 me, but I don't want you to do that. What I think of 1052 01:14:46.600 --> 01:14:50.960 is the parent who is convinced that their job as a parent is to not 1053 01:14:51.079 --> 01:14:58.159 let their kids worry, but in thinking that, they're pretty deep in denial, 1054 01:14:58.239 --> 01:15:00.239 because the fact is the kids are going to worry, and they're gonna 1055 01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:03.840 worry a lot more if the parent doesn't let them help in some way, 1056 01:15:04.119 --> 01:15:10.279 especially once they're there. And to me, that's that's the thing that I 1057 01:15:10.359 --> 01:15:12.680 kind of most wanted Clark to kind of shake him about, but I do 1058 01:15:12.760 --> 01:15:15.359 think he kind of starts to get there, especially because in some ways, 1059 01:15:15.359 --> 01:15:19.199 I think I kind of think Bruce finds two families and he's someone he's kind 1060 01:15:19.239 --> 01:15:24.520 of like the the grumpiest stranged uncle with all of the Robins and bat kids, 1061 01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:28.600 and he's kind of like the estranged cousin who stands at the side of 1062 01:15:28.600 --> 01:15:31.960 the cook out the barbecue with Justice League. But he has some of that 1063 01:15:32.000 --> 01:15:35.079 with you know, with with Clark and with Diana and all the rest, 1064 01:15:35.960 --> 01:15:40.000 because I think part of that that's exactly what's happening with Nightwingers. He thinks 1065 01:15:40.039 --> 01:15:45.760 that he doesn't realize that there's no way Dick can like if Bruce died Batman 1066 01:15:45.960 --> 01:15:53.119 died because I'm saying i'd be say because but and Dick thinks that Dick could 1067 01:15:53.159 --> 01:15:58.119 have saved him. That's gonna be a psychologically destructive to Dick and the way 1068 01:15:58.119 --> 01:16:00.439 that thinks Bruce doesn't understand. And so I kind of really like that how 1069 01:16:00.439 --> 01:16:03.439 it highlights that as well. Yeah, for sure. I mean, if 1070 01:16:03.439 --> 01:16:11.079 we're talking kind of about the death of a death in the family on Max 1071 01:16:12.000 --> 01:16:15.520 sort of it's it's like a recap epilogue kind of thing, you know. 1072 01:16:16.119 --> 01:16:23.800 Um, I really enjoyed getting to hear a lot of Bruce's thoughts and justifications, 1073 01:16:24.199 --> 01:16:27.199 which a lot of which do feel like justifications. You know. He's 1074 01:16:27.239 --> 01:16:30.239 like, yeah, I shouldn't have let them do this, I should have 1075 01:16:30.319 --> 01:16:32.319 made sure this happened. I should have you know, there's there's no wee, 1076 01:16:32.640 --> 01:16:39.319 there's no It's like it's all like he's taking responsibility for everything onto himself 1077 01:16:40.319 --> 01:16:46.439 and not kind of recognizing that other people, like like he's very much not 1078 01:16:46.560 --> 01:16:50.720 giving night Wing agency in terms of like do you want to be involved with 1079 01:16:50.760 --> 01:16:56.920 this? And that's because of his guilt. I think over Jason and feeling 1080 01:16:56.960 --> 01:17:01.840 like he should have not let Jason b Robin basically, you know, I 1081 01:17:01.880 --> 01:17:05.359 mean I think I think he regrets that or or or the way he did 1082 01:17:05.359 --> 01:17:09.119 it. Like I think he's a little unclear on it. But he's basically 1083 01:17:09.159 --> 01:17:13.039 just like, no, this, I have to do everything alone now because 1084 01:17:13.880 --> 01:17:16.600 you know, um, really what he should do is just be like I'm 1085 01:17:16.600 --> 01:17:20.159 just gonna bust Superman real quick and let him take care of some of these 1086 01:17:20.199 --> 01:17:25.359 things. But now, um, it is always interesting, and it's like 1087 01:17:25.399 --> 01:17:29.760 there's the Batman and the Robins, and then like then there's the Justice League, 1088 01:17:29.800 --> 01:17:32.600 and it's like how did those things actually fit together? You know? 1089 01:17:32.680 --> 01:17:38.079 It's like, okay, like in Young Justice, you'll see you know, 1090 01:17:38.119 --> 01:17:43.520 I mean some of the Robins become important characters, right, but in the 1091 01:17:43.600 --> 01:17:47.359 Justice League, like they don't have any of the sidekicks except like Speedy shows 1092 01:17:47.439 --> 01:17:51.000 up for a minute, you know, and it's like thinking about how those 1093 01:17:51.039 --> 01:17:55.479 things actually fit together. It's a little a little interesting. How do the 1094 01:17:55.520 --> 01:18:04.399 small Gotham issues interrupts Sacks with the like alien invasions and like there's a scene 1095 01:18:04.439 --> 01:18:11.159 in which he fights um not Mysterio, who who's he fights in azo im 1096 01:18:11.319 --> 01:18:14.239 yeh, he fights a mazo in under the Red Hood, And I'm like 1097 01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:16.960 really, because yeah, I'm so in a Batman story, I'm used to 1098 01:18:17.039 --> 01:18:21.640 him fighting basically criminals, right right, And sometimes there's criminals who have some 1099 01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:28.079 really cool tech that kind of pushes them into the super villain variety. Yeah, 1100 01:18:28.359 --> 01:18:31.399 sometimes they're a little bit supernatural, but they're rarely like you know, 1101 01:18:31.600 --> 01:18:35.560 like he doesn't fight Zod. He didn't fight right right right, like like 1102 01:18:35.760 --> 01:18:39.840 those that level of villains. So yeah, watching him fight a Mazo, 1103 01:18:39.920 --> 01:18:42.800 I was like, yeah, this, this is a this is a tone 1104 01:18:42.880 --> 01:18:45.319 because there's like Gotham is fundamentally different than Metropolis, and I think it is. 1105 01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:47.800 Any part of why Justice League works so well is because yeah, well 1106 01:18:48.119 --> 01:18:55.720 to the TV show, there's animated Justice League series, Snyder Verse Black, 1107 01:18:56.079 --> 01:19:00.359 but there's not um. Yeah, anyway, that's that's all grand we'vecover before. 1108 01:19:00.479 --> 01:19:02.199 Yeah, anyway, one of the last things you want to bring up 1109 01:19:02.279 --> 01:19:08.880 or talk about about Robin in the Red Hood and this whole story, Yeah, 1110 01:19:09.079 --> 01:19:16.479 I mean one was just that goals regret at using the joke or as 1111 01:19:16.479 --> 01:19:23.760 a distraction kind of reminded me of like we just did the last few episodes 1112 01:19:23.880 --> 01:19:28.439 of The Clone Wars, where Asoka uses Mall as a distraction. You know, 1113 01:19:28.520 --> 01:19:30.640 go cause chaos. That's what you're good at, you know. And 1114 01:19:31.000 --> 01:19:33.760 I felt like an interesting kind of a little parallel. I don't have much 1115 01:19:33.760 --> 01:19:38.000 to say about that, and it's just a little thing. It reminds me. 1116 01:19:38.000 --> 01:19:41.159 Actually have another parallel that I noticed, which is that I feel like 1117 01:19:41.199 --> 01:19:46.560 Batman's feelings for Clark and Batman's feelings for Rachel Gul kind of similar. Yeah, 1118 01:19:46.600 --> 01:19:53.239 Like he sees them both as in his general line of work, using 1119 01:19:53.279 --> 01:19:57.239 methods that he somewhat disagrees with. Right, He disagrees with Rachel Gul a 1120 01:19:57.239 --> 01:19:59.800 lot more, for sure. But he says at one point, like I 1121 01:19:59.840 --> 01:20:01.760 have real respect for Rache because he does have a code that he follows, 1122 01:20:01.920 --> 01:20:04.720 you know, And I think that's for Bruce. I think a really big 1123 01:20:04.720 --> 01:20:09.560 thing is like, if you're following a code, you're not going to go 1124 01:20:09.640 --> 01:20:14.039 overboard. And I think Rachel's code, he's already that, but he does. 1125 01:20:14.199 --> 01:20:15.520 He did. There's a point where's, yeah, I know Rache wouldn't 1126 01:20:15.520 --> 01:20:20.720 do this, right, Yeah, he knows there are there are a certainty 1127 01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:24.880 not a variable. Basically it's like he knows what he's capable of, he 1128 01:20:24.920 --> 01:20:28.239 knows what he's willing to do. You know, he knows what Superman is 1129 01:20:28.239 --> 01:20:32.720 capable of unless he gets possessed by Um Dark Side and then you know, 1130 01:20:32.760 --> 01:20:39.560 and then you got the gryptonite for that um exactly. Yeah. And the 1131 01:20:39.600 --> 01:20:45.600 other thing was just that the whole thing at the end, like where Jason, 1132 01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:53.800 Jason isn't mad that like that, he's not mad at at Batman for 1133 01:20:54.640 --> 01:20:59.359 letting the Joker capture him and kill him. He doesn't blame him for that. 1134 01:20:59.640 --> 01:21:02.279 I mean, Batman was even like, don't go to that warehouse on 1135 01:21:02.319 --> 01:21:08.600 your own. The Joker's too dangerous, you know, Like, which is 1136 01:21:08.640 --> 01:21:13.000 interesting that the Jokers thought of as being that dangerous because like she's like he's 1137 01:21:13.039 --> 01:21:15.720 just a guy, you know. Yeah, but like he's an unpretty he's 1138 01:21:15.760 --> 01:21:20.840 unpredictable, you know, he's the opposite of Rachel Goule. Like, I 1139 01:21:20.920 --> 01:21:24.880 mean, I kind of think the Joker's main powers that he's got charisma twenty 1140 01:21:24.920 --> 01:21:28.600 five. Yeah, you just recruit henchman to do anything and a moment's noted 1141 01:21:28.760 --> 01:21:33.359 right exactly exactly, and and so you know, so I think Jason takes 1142 01:21:33.399 --> 01:21:39.479 responsibility for Like I decided to come to Europe to help with this, to 1143 01:21:39.560 --> 01:21:43.439 investigate this thing. I teamed up with you after I, you know, 1144 01:21:43.720 --> 01:21:46.880 made these these discoveries of stuff. You went off to do this one thing 1145 01:21:46.920 --> 01:21:50.319 and said stay here and watch the warehouse and I was like, no, 1146 01:21:50.439 --> 01:21:55.479 I'm going to go into the warehouse. The joker caught me and killed me, 1147 01:21:55.640 --> 01:21:59.319 and that's on me, you know. Yeah, but why didn't you 1148 01:21:59.359 --> 01:22:04.520 Avenge? Like why do you why is he still breathing? Basically after he 1149 01:22:04.600 --> 01:22:09.159 did this to me, Like why didn't that make you mad enough to cross 1150 01:22:09.239 --> 01:22:12.840 that line? You know, like it would it just be too hard. 1151 01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:15.239 And that's when Batman's like, too hard, it would be too easy, 1152 01:22:15.359 --> 01:22:17.600 you know, And then then he goes on this whole thing. But like 1153 01:22:18.600 --> 01:22:24.199 it's just interested to me that, like the whole thing, like Bruce's whole 1154 01:22:24.199 --> 01:22:29.000 thing is about like feeling like he should have protected Jason. He should have 1155 01:22:29.399 --> 01:22:31.760 you know, he was irresponsible and letting him be in the field and stuff, 1156 01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:34.720 and Jason's like, no, that's fine, you know, right, 1157 01:22:34.760 --> 01:22:38.560 I just want you to kill this guy, that's all. Yeah. I 1158 01:22:38.560 --> 01:22:42.079 mean, kind of going back to what we're saying, it's like Jason absolutely 1159 01:22:42.119 --> 01:22:45.079 sees Batman through the kind of therapeutic lens that I was positing, and and 1160 01:22:46.159 --> 01:22:49.840 Jason sort of has that idea of, yeah, if if something pushes Batman 1161 01:22:50.000 --> 01:22:54.720 enough, he will snap and kill someone. Right, why was it my 1162 01:22:54.840 --> 01:22:58.720 death? Right? Why wasn't my death that thing? Basically? Yeah, 1163 01:22:59.039 --> 01:23:02.560 why wasn't this one bad day? Right? Yeah? Which, you know 1164 01:23:02.720 --> 01:23:08.760 it it sounds like in that regard, it can sound ridiculous, but like 1165 01:23:08.840 --> 01:23:12.479 that's you know how often you hear like you know, like you know, 1166 01:23:12.520 --> 01:23:15.199 why wasn't you know, why wasn't my pain enough of a motivator for you 1167 01:23:15.239 --> 01:23:19.000 to do this other thing? Which I think there's some validity too. There's 1168 01:23:19.000 --> 01:23:23.880 a whole lot of real psychological problems. That sounds pretty unhealthy, but you 1169 01:23:23.920 --> 01:23:27.880 know, but given who Jason has been his entire life, it makes total 1170 01:23:27.960 --> 01:23:30.760 sense. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, any of the last things. 1171 01:23:31.199 --> 01:23:33.720 No, just I mean I think when you add that with like the 1172 01:23:33.840 --> 01:23:39.079 killing joke, it's basically kind of like because this takes place after the killing 1173 01:23:39.159 --> 01:23:42.560 joke, right, because replasically a reference Barber we're gonna shot. Yeah, 1174 01:23:43.239 --> 01:23:45.560 I think it's just kind of like, yeah, maybe Bruce Wayne's not one 1175 01:23:45.560 --> 01:23:49.239 bad day away from becoming the Joker, you know, Like that's to me, 1176 01:23:49.359 --> 01:23:54.159 that's kind of the conclusion. Not everyone's necessarily one bad day away from 1177 01:23:54.880 --> 01:24:00.560 becoming whatever, Like and maybe that whole journey of kind of facing I want 1178 01:24:00.600 --> 01:24:05.319 to kill Joe Chill or whoever or whatever, you know, punch criminals until 1179 01:24:05.359 --> 01:24:12.319 the world's not that way. Like maybe like this Batman has actually worked through 1180 01:24:12.359 --> 01:24:14.720 that to the point where it's like, no, I'm just not going to 1181 01:24:14.840 --> 01:24:18.640 kill people. I've made that decision. That's final, and like, you 1182 01:24:18.680 --> 01:24:20.560 know, I'm just going to do the thing the way I said I was 1183 01:24:20.600 --> 01:24:25.479 going to do the thing, which and I will say I think as someone 1184 01:24:25.520 --> 01:24:29.279 has seen a bunch of versions of this story, both as Batman, but 1185 01:24:29.319 --> 01:24:33.000 also people have told the version of the story in a lot of different superhero 1186 01:24:32.840 --> 01:24:38.000 john as well, including the Arrow Verse. The Arrow tells almost every Batman 1187 01:24:38.119 --> 01:24:41.239 story, right, yeah, yeah, they just appropriate all the Batman stories. 1188 01:24:43.680 --> 01:24:45.960 I think this is one of the absolute best. One of my only 1189 01:24:46.000 --> 01:24:51.800 critiques is that they put so much of the onus of why Jason becomes the 1190 01:24:51.840 --> 01:24:57.239 Red Hood on the Lazarus Pit. Oh yeah, because because I think this 1191 01:24:57.399 --> 01:25:00.600 is the killer. I think I think Jason Todd is proof that maybe Bruce 1192 01:25:00.600 --> 01:25:04.840 Wayne isn't one bad day, but Jason Todd absolutely was. Yeah, yeah, 1193 01:25:04.960 --> 01:25:08.760 yeah, And I mean the way I kind of interpret it, which 1194 01:25:08.840 --> 01:25:15.319 is one hundred percent headcannon, is that like the Lazarus Pit gave him a 1195 01:25:15.359 --> 01:25:19.560 sort of like temporary madness that like he couldn't then have a conversation with Rash 1196 01:25:20.119 --> 01:25:24.600 and Talia or whatever, and he just like killed some people and ran away. 1197 01:25:25.119 --> 01:25:29.239 But then as he's recovering from the immediate effects of the Lazarus Pit, 1198 01:25:29.600 --> 01:25:32.760 like this is who he is, you know, Like my headcanon is that 1199 01:25:33.159 --> 01:25:38.520 this you know, red Hood is not the Jason Todd that was created by 1200 01:25:38.520 --> 01:25:43.840 the Lazarus Pit. It's Jason Todd created by the chain of events, and 1201 01:25:43.880 --> 01:25:47.119 that the Lazarus Pit was more this temporary effect and that's definitely not the text 1202 01:25:47.119 --> 01:25:51.319 of the story. But also the story doesn't like repeatedly tell you about the 1203 01:25:51.399 --> 01:25:56.840 Lazarus Pit like yeah, turning him into whatever. So like it's one of 1204 01:25:56.840 --> 01:25:58.880 those things where you can kind of be like, yeah, I can just 1205 01:25:58.960 --> 01:26:02.319 kind of smoothly head cannon down this slope and then you know, but I 1206 01:26:02.359 --> 01:26:05.159 agree with you, Yeah, and I like that I Cannon. I think 1207 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:09.600 I have a similar one, but it's more the Lazar Pit kind of like 1208 01:26:09.720 --> 01:26:14.079 brings out your worst ins, So that like is like it basically the Lazarus 1209 01:26:14.119 --> 01:26:16.640 Pit. Like if there's any little part of Jason that would have fought him 1210 01:26:16.680 --> 01:26:20.239 become in the Red Hood, Yeah, but then he probably would have become 1211 01:26:20.279 --> 01:26:23.600 the Red Hood anyway, you know, sure in some degree or another. 1212 01:26:23.800 --> 01:26:26.560 Yeah, I'm done with that all right. I think it's a good place 1213 01:26:26.560 --> 01:26:30.319 to wrap up. Um. Paul is the zen madman, prettybody who wants 1214 01:26:30.319 --> 01:26:31.840 to find his stuff. He's kind of taking a pause and some creative stuff. 1215 01:26:31.880 --> 01:26:34.800 But there's a lot of great stuff out there on YouTube and other places 1216 01:26:34.840 --> 01:26:38.840 you want to learn about poker or learn about things. Paul's written novels, 1217 01:26:38.840 --> 01:26:42.199 like Paul's written books, you definitely go check them out. Paul Christopher Hoppy 1218 01:26:42.319 --> 01:26:45.239 myself, I am the Ethical Panda. You go to the Ethical Panda dot 1219 01:26:45.239 --> 01:26:47.159 com. You find all my podcasts, you find the other creative stuff I 1220 01:26:47.199 --> 01:26:50.760 do. I'm trying to create on TikTok a lot more, and I'm starting 1221 01:26:50.880 --> 01:26:55.159 to dip my toe back into Twitch streaming. I'm gonna try it for a 1222 01:26:55.159 --> 01:26:57.439 week or two and just kind of see when I do it and when I 1223 01:26:57.479 --> 01:27:00.159 don't do it. I'm not gonna try and start on a schedule yet, 1224 01:27:00.399 --> 01:27:02.279 because I think it's good to have a schedule. I think I think not 1225 01:27:02.359 --> 01:27:05.520 having a schedule is bad. I think setting a schedule and they're not sticking 1226 01:27:05.520 --> 01:27:09.840 to it as worse. So I'm gonna start being pretty random, try and 1227 01:27:09.840 --> 01:27:13.520 give people a couple hours notice sometimes, although I probably just start streaming the 1228 01:27:13.600 --> 01:27:15.479 moment I'm done recording this, which you won't care about because you're gonna hear 1229 01:27:15.520 --> 01:27:19.960 it in two weeks. But yeah, Twitch dot Com, Backslash or regular 1230 01:27:20.000 --> 01:27:23.920 Slash, the Ethical Panda, all the notes through in the show notes, 1231 01:27:24.000 --> 01:27:26.399 and most importantly though, all those are good places to give us feedback. 1232 01:27:26.520 --> 01:27:29.119 What do you think of this story? Is this your favorite version of the 1233 01:27:29.159 --> 01:27:30.960 story? Do you have other versions you like better? What do you think 1234 01:27:31.119 --> 01:27:34.000 was Bruce totally right? Is Bruce totally wrong? Let us know in the 1235 01:27:34.039 --> 01:27:38.479 feedback We would love to hear from you. Well, in the Patreon section, 1236 01:27:38.479 --> 01:27:41.880 we're gonna talk more about the idea of sidekicks in general and where Robin 1237 01:27:41.960 --> 01:27:45.560 ranks up against some other sidekicks. But until then, for everybody else who's 1238 01:27:45.600 --> 01:27:47.760 not a part of that on math, myself and Paul, thank you so 1239 01:27:47.840 --> 01:28:01.720 much. We have spoken, We've found a way to win. What are you us