Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero FX. Today we are talking
about Batman under the Red Hood, Batman death in the family. The first
part. Basicly, we're talking about Jason Todd, the Red Hood, the
Joker, and one of the most interesting and ethically rich stories in the Batman
Cannon that has been very famous in comic books for some time, brought to
life in animation in a couple of movies that we watched, and we're going
to discuss all that more with myself and Paul Hoppy right after this commercial break.
We have no controller. Welcome back, Matthew, your host. I
am joined by. Don't get too excited. They are still very much not
an official co host and this maybe their last appearance for a while until something
interesting occurs to them. Paul, Happy, Paul. How are we doing
today? Doing pretty good? Yeah? I was debating how many how many
spoilers you had in that intro, but I guess we'll say there will be
spoiler's forthcoming, and thinking about it more, I'm like, well, it
wasn't exactly entirely you know. Yeah, I mean the show opens with Joker
murdering Jason Todd, and then Batman fights the Red Hood and then well,
I feel like this is a story that's been well told in a number of
places, not in live action yet. Well no, no, no,
that's false. It was well, it was told in a live action that
very few people have seen, namely Tight Nights, Yeah, which did a
version of it, which we'll get to. But I will say, yeah,
for those who don't know what we're talking for those who don't know who
we're talking about, we're talking about the Red Hood Batman plot arc that is
very good if you If you don't know what we're talking about, I may
suggest hitting pause, go watch on HBO Max or forgive me now, just
Max Batman under the Red Hood. You do also get basically a full summary
of it and just Batman reflecting on it in twenty five minutes in the first
part of Batman Death in the Family. Yeah, it's like the cliff Notes
the bat Notes pretty much. Or we will actually do he a summary of
it as part of talking to you about it today. So let me actually
jump in there, Paul, let me ask you. Can you summarize what
is the Red Hood storyline? Yeah, so, going all the way back,
there's a storyline where the Joker is maybe the head of the Red Hood
Gang or he's wearing the Red Hook or whatever, and he falls into the
vat of chemicals and becomes the Joker after a confrontation with Batman. Right right,
So fast forward years later, Dick Grayson has been Robin. He's gone
off and he's become Nightling. Jason Todd has become the new Robin. Tim
Drake fits in there somewhere. But this is you know, this is about
Jason Todd. He's the new Robin. He and Batman kind of you know,
they don't see everything the same way all the time. He's he's a
little more into like, can't we be a little more violent? You know,
is this really going to be the Does this way work? Which I
think is a legitimate question judging by how often everyone gets, you know,
locked up and then escapes and locked up and escapes and YadA, YadA,
YadA. You look at how Gotham functions, right, And so Rachel Gol
is like doing a thing in Europe, like destabilizing the banks or something.
You know, he's blowing some stuff up. He uses the Joker as a
distraction, but the Joker captures and murders Jason Todd and it's like the one
time that you know, they don't get away, and in the original comic
storyline, they like held a pole an audience poll like does Robin die?
Does he escape? Whatever? You know? And then that's like the backstory,
right, and then you fast forward kind of to quote unquote modern day
Gotham or the where most of the story is set, and this new villain
called the Red Hood, which is clearly not the same Redhood that the Joker
was, but shows up and starts trying to consolidate organized crime, bumping off
a lot of you know, the criminals, right and saying like, don't
sell the kids, but you do the rest of your stuff and get me
forty percent, and I'll protect you from people like Black Mask and from Batman,
right so, and from me, he's basically, and from me because
I'll kill you if you don't do what I tell you do, Yes,
exactly. I mean it's that kind of It's like it's you know, the
protection. Yeah, you know, I'm just selling your protection from me.
But also like Batman and Black Mask are a legit, you know, other
people interfering with their affairs, right, so you know, Batman confronts him
a couple of times and eventually comes to realize that it's Jason Todd who's been
brought back from the dead by Rachel Gul via Lazarus Pit. And then Red
Hood keeps going after Black Mask, and Black Mask eventually breaks the Joker out
of Arkham, and basically the whole planel all along was to antagonize Black Mask
to the point where then he's going to recruit the Joker, because the Red
Hood actually wanted to get to the Joker and get to Batman and then arrange
this like spicy three way at the end where basically, you know they're all
fighting, Well, the Joker's basically just tied up and getting beaten with a
crowbar, and you know, there's a lot of kind of this is what
you did to me, so now this is what I'm doing to you.
This is what you did to them, So now I'm wearing you know,
their get up, and then they're all Specifically, the Joker had tortured Jason
Todd with a crowbar for a while before finally killing him, Yeah, exactly,
and clearly had a lot of fun doing so. And the Joker clearly
seems to enjoy this whole thing that Jason has set up right where you know
they're all about to get blown up, and Jokers like, I'm the only
one who's going to get what he wants tonight. And you know, then
of course they don't all get blown up, and you know, he sets
up one of those uh, you know, Punisher versus Daredevil rooftop. You
know, either you shoot me or I shoot him. You know, there's
no third way out. And then of course there's always a third way out
because you know comics, yeah, and just stories in general. Right,
I mean, I think there's a strong third way trope going on here.
And so the movie ends with do we get the sense that Joker has survived?
Even though we just think to see Batman pulling Jason Todd out of the
wreckage, but we learned that that that Joker survived. We don't hear anything
about what happened to Jason except for comment about like where is he? And
then in kind of a coda to it, as I mentioned, the movie
that came out ten years later, which is a bag of an anthology of
shorts called Death in the Family or is it a Death in the Family,
because those are two different things. No, there's Death in there's a death
in a family, and there's Death of the Family, which is okay,
I believe I have this straight. There's a Death in the Family, which
is a comic storyline, then there was Death of the Family, which is
a later comic storyline. Then there's Under the Red Hood, which then became
a movie, and then they made a Death in the Family. It's like
there's like a live, interactive, interactive film somewhere. But the thing they
have on Max is actually an anthology where I think they took one of the
storylines and then they added a bunch of shorts and it's called a Death in
the Family. Yeah, and so in it and so in it. It's
basically Batman telling the story to someone and for well, sorry, it's Bruce
Wayne telling the story to someone of what happened, and for a while,
we don't know what who they're telling it to, and basically recounting the whole
thing and doing a lot of introspection about his role in recruiting the Robin but
also perhaps not not protecting them enough and all his complicated feelings about that,
and all his complicated feelings about what happened to Jason Todd and the responsibility and
blame he feels for that. And at the end of it, what he
says is that you know, they know that Jason Todd lived, but that
they don't know where he is. And then of course it's also revealed that
it's Clark Kent that he's talking to, and as this really beautiful moment of
the two of them, like both admitting that they have contingency plans to defeat
the other, but also kind of showing that they have a real respect for
each other. Yeah, and I'll just say, so, this is the
version of it that we're talking about, and we're mostly going to be talking
about this specific version of it, but this is a There are kind of
like some key moments in the Batman mythos that have been told over and over
and over again, and every time it's told, some details are kept the
same and some are kept different. And you know, so Dick Grayson's parents
is one of them. Batman's parents dying obviously is another one. If this
is not quite at that level of popularity, as I said, it's never
appeared in a movie, but I think it is becoming pretty well known,
and it has appeared, as he said, in a number of different places.
Batman, the animated series Into Justice League had a version of this story.
This always has a version of the story. The comics have it well
known, Titans has it well known, and I think it's also and it's
obviously appeared in a lot of comic books and other things like that. And
my understanding is kind of the key points to it are always it's Jason Todd.
It's distinctly not Dick Grayson, is it. As you said, Jason
Todd wants to be more violent. He doesn't necessarily want to kill, although
sometimes he does want to kill, but he's certainly he enjoys the violence in
a way Batman thinks he shouldn't. That he and Batman have real disagreements that
Jason gets himself into danger and caught by the Joker in ways that are depending
on that. Jason often thinks it is Batman's fault. Whether that is or
not, or whether it's something he Batman told him not to do, various
with the tellering, but certainly Batman fields some guilt about it. The Joker
tortures him, the Joker kills him, and then he comes back as well.
In some versions, actor Joker doesn't fully kill him. He just brainwashes
him, and it's kind of the like, you know, it's sort of
a version of the killing joke. And if you know, anybody is one
good, one bad day away from turning there Jason Todd does you know?
The versions is the Lazarus Pit or something else that brings him back but brings
out his worst aspects or whatever it is, and that he then goes on
to try and consolidate crime and to fight Batman, and Batman is eventually placed
in the situation where basically, like the only thing he can do is to
fight Jason and some horrible thing is going to happen, and of course Batman
figures a way to save it. Yeah, and I haven't seen all of
them, and there's, um, there's definitely a another storyline where something similar
happens to Tim Drake, right, But that's that's a separate story that really
kind of only appears in that one place, and we've talked about it before.
I don't really want to talk about it right now because hopefully people will
just see it and it's just really good. But yeah, but yeah,
I think I think that's a good, you know, general summary of So
why why do you think the story resonates so much? Why is it a
story that people who love Batman keep telling again and again and the people who
love watching Batman are really drawn and reading Batman are really drawn to I mean,
I think it kind of gets to some of the central questions of like,
you know, if you're going to step outside the law and try and
like I'd like to have a better word than criminals, but that's what that's
what they use, so we could just go with it for now. But
you know, basically, if if you're going to step outside the law and
try and stop people who I guess people who are doing things that you think
are harmful, right, you know, what measures are you willing to take?
You know? And there's there's a question of like, you know,
what's what's right, what's wrong, but also kind of what do you trust
yourself with right? You know? Like I mean, I love the series
Dexter for some number of serious seasons that don't include the last one. And
you know, it's about a guy who goes around killing people who are doing
harm to other people, and he's doing that because he likes to kill people.
And his dad was like, hey, if you're gonna kill people anyway,
you know, you might as well kill people who maybe that's going to
make the world a little better. And you know, you're less likely to
get caught because people aren't gonna miss them so much, right, People aren't
gonna be like, oh, we have to avenge the death of this you
know, serial pedophile, you know, killer or whatever. And not to
Nippick. But I think it's an important clarification. It's not even that he
likes killing, It is that he has a compulsion to do it sure stream
trauma that he had when he was a kid. Yeah, that's a that's
a definitely a a necessary specification. I agree. Yeah, And you know
that doesn't mean that he necessarily literally has to do it, but that he
has he has, you know, psychological issues basically that right that that um,
he feels compelled to do that, and you know, by the end
of it spoilers. You know, he's not necessarily only killing people who are
doing a lot of harm, right, um. And so I think broadly
speaking, I mean I have a question like, can you really trust anyone
to make those judgments? I certainly don't trust the government too, you know,
I mean, we recently did gross, point blank and talking about sometimes
there's due process, sometimes there's not, but like even if there is due
process, like I'm still against it, you know. But but in terms
of a practical sense, you know, they're fighting people who are brandishing guns
at them, and that gets to a different point, like what level of
violence are you prepared to use when you're trying to stop someone from doing something
harmful overall? But also like they're literally trying to kill you right now?
You know, what sort of level of violence is acceptable or do you find
acceptable there? You know? And and here I think one of the reasons
that I think this resonates with a lot of people is that instead of showing
Batman as this maybe maybe a badman, that I actually prefer as this like
you know, angry, but not like not filled with the spirit of vengeance,
not filled with like I want to kill these people. I want to
hurt these people, but I won't let myself, you know, I have
more of a view of like the Batman that I prefer is is more like
that's not what I want to do. I really do, just want to
stop them. This Batman is very much he's like there's not a day that
goes by that I don't think about killing the Joker, you know, right,
and they show like he um like wants to just like just crush his
throat, and and he's like, he says to Jason basically, hey,
if I do that, I don't think I'm coming back, you know,
yeah, like I think you know if I'm like, yeah, well I
can kill the Joker, right, it's the Joker. He killed Jason.
And he's like, but then you know what about Riddler? Riddler, Yeah,
maybe maybe I should kill Riddles. I mean, just these just these
two, you know, right, because as you say, with Dexter,
what happens, and I think this is history is rife with this. Most
of the people who we think of as like the most horrible people in the
world, like in their minds, they are doing harm to the people they
think are doing harm. And often, I mean, and you know,
when it starts with just like I want to harm the Jews because I think
the Jews are terrible like that that is obviously even just starting from a horrible
place, but sometimes it's you know, yeah, I think criminals are doing
terrible things and I want to harm them. Well, I think there's some
socioeconomic analysis that's really needed there about why are you beating up poor people?
Inte. But like where it can also then go is even if you start
with the idea of I am going to harm this person because I know that
this person is doing terrible things, Okay, but now there are these three
henchmen in the way, right, so I have to do harm to their
hench henchmen. And excuse me. Now there's this like rent a cop security
guard at the bank, and I have to do harm to that person and
we'll wait. But if someone knows that I'm the one doing is, they'll
stop me. So I don't have to do harm to the lady who was
just an innocent bystander who saw me like and I think that kind of snowballing
is definitely a thing. Yeah. One thing I think that that makes this
particularly interesting is and there's actually a whole other level to why I want the
story so fascinating that we'll get to. But let's just start with this because
the idea of the Jason questioning Batman's methods, I think that there are fundamentally
two different like branches this question gets into that are very linked. But I
think it's important to separate, and I'm curious if you see the same way.
One is, do you allow yourself to enjoy the violence you are inflicting?
And thus, how much or how little are you holding back on the
you know, are you calling your punches when you need to, are you
just not using exactly the full force, or you're trying to not do even
worse? And like, there's a pivotal scene where Jason doesn't kill someone,
he shatters their collar bone and Batman gets very angry at him, and I
question that given the normal rants we've given about you know, things Batman and
Daredevil and people like that do, and the bodily damage they do. But
even putting that as side, But then I think there's a separate related question,
which is the idea of a deterrent, which is, if your goal
is to not only stop the evil thing or the bad thing that a person's
doing right now, but to prevent them from doing bad things in the future,
well, hopefully the society has a system into which you can put them
that will take care of them. Our society kind of sort of does,
but it's a really really bad one and really inhumane and really horrible, and
doesn't use restoration and restored justice in any way. The Gotham one is even
worse because not only does it just lock people up, but it's really really
bad at locking people up. And so I think Jason is raising like there's
definitely that question of like can you enjoy it? How much violence can you
do? But also this question of if we know with fairly high degree of
certainty that if we just put Joker into Arkham, he will get free and
the hurt people and kill people again, if in this world the literal only
way to stop him doing that is to kill him, then we should should
we kill him? And I very much sure, like you, I'm not
in favor of that argument, but I think it's important kind of do you
see what I mean about separating tho two arguments a bit? Yeah? And
I mean almost feel like you got into a third one at the end,
but you know, the I mean too or I guess maybe you didn't get
into the one that I thought you were going to get into at the beginning,
which is like, you know, the sort of breaking the collar bone
and like is that you know, is that too much? And yeah,
I do think you know in Arrow, right, they like Arrow like makes
this like you know, black Site prison right like on the islands that he
was, you know, and like he's basically like, yeah, I'm gonna
store all these you know, super villains here. And I mean, if
you're Batman and you have a bat cave, maybe you should just kidnap Joker,
you know, like put them in your cave, serve them three squares
a day, and like, you know, maybe talk to him here and
there. Like but like, Arkham does not seem like a good solution.
I think that's right. And I think a lot of times when stories set
this up in such a way where they're just like, oh, the only
solutions are Arkham or murder, and it's like, well, no, you
know, it's like in in our world, it's like the only solutions aren't
necessarily either you incarcerate someone in the ridiculous US prison system or you kill them,
Like you know, there are other things you can do, and it's
like, you know, whether the story is interested in investigating those and whether
people are investigating those in our world that's a question. But you know,
I'm a strong I mean, I'm a I'm a believer in the third way,
Like not that there's always a good answer not that there's always you know,
um a better way, but that very rarely are we presented with a
true you know, A or B binary decision where it's like you can either
do this or you can do that. It's a multiple choice. No,
that's not how reality functions. You can try and think of new and you
know, more effective ways, and then you can try them and maybe they
work, maybe they don't. But like you know, and this is this
is a tangent, but but it's related in some ways, kind of related
to everything we do. Because I'm going to say a word in defensive trolley
problems, because I agree with you that in real life is never that simple.
I think, and I think it's important to remember that a trolley problem,
which is I think exactly we're talking abouts where you set up a it's
either A or B both have negative consequences, which do you choose? I
think that is useful as a psyche, as a philosophical exercise to help people
think more about their values and how they see things and how they do or
don't value things. I think the danger is that we then think that means
that things in real life are actual trolley problems, and that a lot of
our media says, look, here's a trolley problem, and in the reality,
the hero almost always, you know, comes up with a third way
the trolley or something, yeah exactly. And that used to frustrate me,
but I actually think, no, it's actually a good thing because because that's
the point is that in real life, because because it's also not only that
there's often a third way, but there's also often so much more context,
you know, And there's a there's actually a board game called Trolley Problem,
which I really enjoy because part of what you do is like each team puts
cards on the other one's tracks to try to convince the operator to go down
one or the other. But the idea that you start out with it's just
like you know, um, you know, Florence Nightingale or the guy who
invented pop up ads on the internet. And you're like, oh, okay,
well that one's easy. And then you're like, okay, but the
guy who invented pop up ads is also gonna sure cancer one day, and
Florence Nightingale is you know, doing horrible things with ten year old like it.
Whatever it is, the idea is that you just keep adding more and
more context. The game is very silly, and this is kind of a
silly tangent, but my base point just being that I think there is value
to the psychological exercise, of philosophical exercise of trying to, you know,
ask yourself what choices people would make in those kind of situations. But then
also yeah, understanding that, as you were just saying, real life is
never that simple. It's never going to just be a binary and even those
two options are always gonna be much more complex. Yeah, I mean,
I guess I'm not sold on the util of that framework, but I do
I do feel like if I don't know, it's the sort of thing where
it's like, all right, if you're going to go with this thought experiment
and then you're going to be like, oh, that's the bell, that's
all for today, and then you're just going to do something else next week.
I think that's like potentially pretty harmful, you know, whereas like if
you're actually going to talk about everything you were talking about about, how yeah
there always is context, right, things aren't ever actually that simple. Like
we are using this, like we're using this as a hypothetical with a deep
understanding of the fact that it is a hypothetical and that things are never actually
this simple, right, yes, exactly, then like I could potentially be
persuaded. I certainly don't feel like that's necessarily that bad. Whether I think
it's necessarily that helpful, I'm not sure, but you know, you know,
cool, whatever, do it the way you want to do it.
You know, again, for us mere mortals. Sure, sure, for
I will deign to allow it for for mortals. But but yeah, I
think, um, it's interesting how often, you know, various media do
portray these sorts of things and then say, but there is actually a third
way, and like, maybe there's as as sort of contrived as these things
always feel. To me, maybe that's actually a kind of its own lesson,
And I do appreciate that lesson of like, you know, yeah,
you don't when somebody faces you with the choice of A or B, you
can sometimes say no, right, No, I really like what you're saying
there, And I think you're right. That's something I certainly have not thought
of before. But but I've been thinking about even before it starts speaking that
because to me, I think when you look at someone like Joker or Jason
Todd or Joker in the dark night or you know, green Goblin, a
villain will come along to make a hero make a terrible choice. What all
this is. One of the things that's motivating them is unfortunately a limited imagination.
You know. Punisher has decided that there is no hope right the criminal
justice system. You cannot have a society that has a criminal justice system that
works in any way, and so therefore we have to just kind of accept
you have to let me kill these people because that's the only way. And
to me, that's exactly what the death penalty is. The death penalty is
an abandonment of hope. It's a we don't think and it's such a self
fulfilling prophecy, you know, because it's like, look, we're going to
build a prison system that gives people the least possible chance to be rehabilitated,
and then say, oh, look they weren't rehabilitated, so all we should
do is killed them. And in Gothic it's even worse, you know.
And yeah, so I do like that idea. The third thing, third
way shifting though though to the violence question, I just want to agree with
that. I think I really like what you said in response, as while
I'm on board with all that. Oh, thank you, I appreciate that.
Shifting back though to the first part of the Jason Todd thing, and
then I want to get into my wholly other different reason why I think the
story is so interesting. Let's talk about this question of the enjoyment of well.
First of all, I just want to make the brief editorial comment that
you and I have already talked about the idea that, like, there is
violence that is very specifically intended to be lethal, like firing a gun at
someone stabbing them in the heart, but then any kind of violence has the
potential to be lethal. You know, yeah, we were. I was
just reminded because they the medical staff won an award there was a football player
who came very close to dying just because he got hit hard in the chest
at the exact wrong moment in his you know, heartbeat rhythm, and he
almost died. And there's just possibility that no one has died from Daredevil or
Batman hitting them in the head with metal objects on a frequent basis, or
any of that stuff. But you heard us talk about that. I'm yeah,
yeah, So the idea that he's even just saying like no, no,
I pull my punches enough that I'm not going to even break their collar
bone? Is I get what the I get what the writers meant to buy
that. I think that was a really bad way to write it. I'm
gonna I'm gonna largely co sign that. I will say, like you can
choose your targets, you know, and it like I'm not saying no Batman
is going around hitting people in the collarbone all the time, but like that's
a I'm pretty sure I broke someone's collarbone one time, and like, you
know it it's a specific place that you hit someone. You know that that
wasn't what I was trying to do, right, but like, you know,
it's this was in the context of martial arts of a tournament, you
know, where I think I ended up losing a fight like thirteen to two,
but the other person basically like couldn't proceed from there because there are certain
you know, and like like you could say that's irresponsible, you know,
and I don't think that would be too far off, but like, there
are places you can hit people that are likely to that are more likely to
incapacitate them, take the wind out of them, knock them down, you
know. Or cause like some kind of lower level of damage, and there's
other places that are that are more vital. You know that if I'm fighting
someone with the gun, I gotta say, like, first of all,
generally like don't fight people with guns. If somebody comes up to me with
a gun, I'm like, yeah, what do you want? You know,
I'm happy about it, but sure, here's my stuff, go far
away and you know, best of luck. M But like if somebody's brandishing
a gun at you and shooting it at you and or at me, and
like I'm trying to defend myself against that, I'll be honest, I'm probably
not going to show as much restraint as like Batman does or wants Jason Todd
to. Right, having said that, that's what they do, they've put
themselves in that situation. That situation didn't come to them right, right.
You know. Then again, like you know, Batman's putting a kid in
the field or then now I think he's a teenager. It's like, yeah,
you know, it's I agree that that scene could have been written better.
I think mostly if he like broke his jaw, because because what they
did, he wasn't like, oh, this is clearly bad because you hurt
him too much, right, Who's like this is bad because now we needed
him to talk and he wanted to shock, you know. And I'm not
one hundred certain whether the story is saying that Batman's definitely right there and Jason's
definitely wrong there, or if the story is maybe saying like, hey,
this is this is a good question, and you can kind of think about
it yourself. I prefer to think of it the second way, you know.
Yeah, And but I think they kind of it was like a cake
and have it to situation, right, you know. Well, and I
think that's where also it becomes important I'm going to separate these two things,
but then say that they're also very linked, kind of to separate the moral
or ethical philosophical argument from the strategic one, right, you know. And
that's kind of the same thing of like, if you have an alternative that
isn't the death penalty, then there's a very good debate to be had,
although I think it's a pretty simple debate frankly, of do you use that
deterrent or do you kill them? But if if you literally have no other
deterrent, if they're always going to escape, then yeah, then there is
at least a strategic idea of using the death penalty. I'm still against it,
but I get that, and I think he yeah to me, v
oh, but now he's gone into shock. We can't talk to him.
Argument it kind of falls flat because the whole rest of discussion is about him
enjoying it, you know, in Jason's but he deserves it and stuff like
that, And so I kind of I guess what I can kind to do
here because also it's more relevant to the other stories as well as because all
right, so putting aside the specific way this one's written, Yeah, what's
your take on this idea of that Jason's problems that he's enjoying it too much?
I mean, I think it's dangerous. I think it's the sort of
thing that either you can control or you can't. I mean, I'll I'll
tell you another taekwondo story. I went to see Revenge of the Sith when
it came out with some taekwondo friends, and one of them was talking about
relating to Anakin and the sort of like you know, seeing like thinking about
like using violence for like good reasons, but like kind of how that can
be this dark path and you know, and kind of contemplating like, well,
what level of violence, you know, And this is person who's I
mean at the time was a good friend of mine and we didn't have a
falling out. We've just you know, grown apart because we don't have that
shared interest at the moment. But like who also, you know, did
serious harm to a another good friend of mine, you know, I mean,
but not much longer and um, and was closer to whatever at the
point being that, like, you know, I've seen this kind of like
you know, to quote Martin blank and eventually you get to like it,
and like it's that doesn't mean you're necessarily always gonna like it. And if
you really cause serious harm, like I think it there's I mean, I've
had regretful kind of feelings about even you know, causing significant injury to someone
who like maybe I mean, someone who wasn't didn't seem like the best dude,
you know, had done several things that I thought were kind of harmful,
and and still afterwards, like I was like, oh, I don't
I don't like this, you know, But at the same time, like
a bunch of people are like, oh, that was so cool, you
know, And it's like and just in the context of martial arts, it's
like it was really cool. It was like, you know, it's like
he's doing a back kick and I slept it, and then I kicked him
in the face with just the flat of my foot across his whole face.
And it's like that moment of like just landing like a really solid shot is
like very satisfying, you know, but then seeing just like blood pouring out
of their nose and like they're just like done for the day. It's like
I had this very opposite feeling, you know. Yeah, and none everybody
has that, though, and so I would say, like, if you
don't have that contrary feeling at the same time, I'm concerned, yeah,
you know, and and so well documented the reason why it takes me the
reasons why. But one of the big reasons why people are able to be
so cruel to each other on the internet is you never see that, you
know, like, even if you're bullying someone in school or something, you
see their face fall and like some part of that registers and most of you
ignore it because you're fourteen and an idiot, but like, yeah, you
hurt, you say something visibly hurt full to somebody if you don't like it,
like you're they're always often a little party, right like, yeah,
and so where do you think where do you think Batman is on that?
How do you think Batman feels about And granted, he's a character who has
been his stories of being told for eighty five years by now, yeah,
so there's eight million different versions of it, but how how do you kind
of understand the struggle he's going through. So I would say that in this
particular story, in this particular rendering of this particular story, I think he's
a little closer to the Matt Murdoch, you know, Daredevil kind of let
the devil out sort of you know, um of like there is a part
of him that is still very angry and still takes some pleasure in in in
the farm to people that he thinks maybe less about deserve it, but kind
of maybe maybe do deserve Maybe that is kind of how he's look at it,
you know. I think that's probably partially a reflection of the writer or
writers, And I think there are other Batman stories where I don't feel that's
the case. I certainly don't feel that, particularly in the animated series.
I don't feel at all in the Justice League series, you know, in
terms of this, Like in those he feels very pragmatic and very you know,
I'm going to do what I need to do to make the world the
way I want it to be, and there's this kind of level of detachment
that I feel like my favorite Batman's have achieved, you know. And you
know, I think when we I think it was when we talked about the
Dark Night, you know, and maybe Batman begins, but you know,
I think you were talking about the kind of the anger you know, and
them in that aspect, and I was saying that I didn't particularly feel that.
I think that's very much me projecting onto that, and I think perhaps
that's you projecting onto that. I don't know. I don't want to say
that that is, but go ahead, I was you canna say, like,
I mean, the idea that like some emotional assessment of another person doesn't
involve any degree of projection is kind of silly. I'm sure, right how
the world? So yeah, I mean, we're always seeing three things through
our own lens, right, That's that's the only lens we have. We
can listen to how other people see them and then gain a portion of that
perspective. But we can't live that perspective, right, We can only live
through our own lives and see through our own eyes really and so or metaphorically.
So I feel like I don't know where each Batman lands on kind of
that spectrum of I enjoy this, but I'm not doing it because I'm enjoying
it. I'm almost doing it in spite of the fact that I enjoy it
because I don't want to be doing it because I enjoy it. I'm doing
it because I think it needs to be done, and thus I'm holding myself
back or the kind of you know, the batman who started in that place
and then worked through it and is now this kind of I would say,
kind of more fully realized, kind of like in charge of himself and his
emotion, like has acknowledged all the emotions and then let them go kind of
right, because it's like I don't I wouldn't say, like push them away,
right, because I think that's very unhealthy and some Batman's are very unhealthy,
you know. But I think I think it's up to somewhat up to
the audience to interpret it, and definitely up to the writers and the actors
to kind of decide what they're going for. So I think I'm similar to
you, if a little different. And part of why I want to have
this discussion is I think it really is going to it's gonna really inform the
next question that I want to ask, which is specifically, like, how
do we feel about Batman recruiting children to help him? Because a lot of
it is him feeling like he's helping those kids with the same struggle. So
just kind of bookmarking that for the future. And I will name from beginning
that the way I my lens for this, because it clearly affects this although
it's one that I've studied objectively as well as feelings subjectively. I'm a person
who has compulsions. I'm a person who has an addictive behavior. I have
never had a chemical addiction of any kind, although I am the descendant of
someone who does. But I certainly have had addictive behavior, and I have
had compulsive behavior, and a lot of what I have studied and a lot
of what I've found in myself and in like the stuff that I've studied,
especially in terms of reading a lot about alcoholism, because that was what my
family had and other things like that. But also in terms of other kind
of again non chemically based things, is that in many ways, like the
having a goal of the compulsion goes away or the desire for it is basically
unobtainable. What is obtainable is two things. One is that you can and
really the healthiest part of it is you can look to what are the emotional
needs or the emotional unprocessed trauma or whatever it is that's making you want to
do those things and deal with that. So in my case, for example,
like I was definitely you know, like addicted to seeking out people to
date or to flirt with or get validation from, and that came from a
lot of self esteem issues that I've definitely been able to work through. But
also that there's a sense of just as you were kind of saying, as
you get to more and more of a sense of peace, you know,
as you were kind of talking about like this fully realized, actualized version of
Batman, I was thinking about things I've read by people who have been you
know, alcoholics, but have been sober for thirty forty years, and they'll
say that, like, yeah, still get the urge to have a drink,
but in some persons said, it's like, you know, kind of
the urge that I have to go be an NBA basketball star. I know
it's not realistic in any way, shape or form, gets still there and
I think if I gave into it, it would come back with a vengeance
real fast. But it's by now very easy for me to ignore. So
with all that as context, I kind of see Batman in that regard that
I think of him as someone who in a lot of ways, I think
of Batman as a much healthier version of Dexter. And you can say,
in part that's because of different writers, but also because, like Dexter,
has what happened to him happen at two and in a far more bloody and
gruesome way than happens to young Bruce Wayne. But the idea being, and
here I'm kind of quoting the people from DC on Screen podcast Jason and not
Jason and Todd David, and that would be an amazing pair of name.
If anyone is out there named Jason and Todd, please tell me and your
friends please do a Batman podcast or to a pod specificly on the Robbins.
Get someone named Robin actually anyway, moving one, but the point being,
I think this horrible thing happens to him. Yeah. Sorry, So what
they were saying on that podcast DC on Screen is that with most superheroes,
like he is Clark Kent and he becomes Superman, but that with Batman,
he is Batman and Bruce Wayne is his altar, is his disguise, and
kind of the idea being that, like because it had a fundamental part of
him not just wants to be Batman, but needs to be Batman, needs
to do something, be personally involved in the effort to not let what happened
to him happen to other people. Now, even just saying that is that
that is a much healthier version of I want to go punish the people who
do those things. And I think they're linked. But I think again that
kind of like healthy self actualization can help turn it in that other direction.
But yeah, to me, he strikes me as someone who is over the
course of the stories, he learns to control it more and more and and
is it and and that's I think a lot of part of what he's trying
to do with Jason is trying to be like, you know, if you're
given to that anger, if you let it be motivated out of anger.
And here I'm also projecting as someone who loves Star Wars because this is very
much a path exactly I mean, and that's exactly that's that's the Huntress character,
that's Phantasm character. That's a lot of these characters who are kind of
when they're set up as a foil to Batman because they're kind of Batman but
even darker. Like to me, the discussions between Batman and the Phantasm,
it's the exact same as the Potisher and Daredevil, you know, It's that
it's that one more person who's doing that. Where all this is going is
I want to pose a hypothetical and see if you feel about the same way
I do, which is that I think for a lot of Batman's career,
not by the point he reaches that complete total self actualization, you know that.
I think he does have, as you said, in Batman, the
animated series and the Justice League shows that come after it. But I think
a lot of versions of Batman they have that level of control. But it
occurs to me that I have never seen him in a situation where he comes
upon a young boy or a young child screaming because his parents have just been
murdered and the murderers right there. Because and I say that because there's a
part of me that thinks that that would sort of be the hardest test for
Batman. He just see so clearly and so viscerally what happened to him.
And granted he does that's very much what happens to all the robins, and
that's kind of where he comes upon them. But to me, I think
that's the and I think he would I think he would still pass that test
most of the time. But I think that's that that that that to me
is kind of the the apex of what I'm getting out of that sort of
like I do think that Batman still has that like there is a part of
him that likes it a little bit, but he makes sure not to let
that out because I'm rambling a bit. But here's the one other point that
I wanted to put on is to me, I think an essential part of
this, it's the safety valve. It's the you know, kind of like
and and again getting away from chemical dependencies. But even there, there's a
lot of research that shows that like the quit cold Turkey model doesn't actually work,
and that there's some extent of like, you know, can you have
a much more controlled, regulated use of a thing, maybe not a chemical
thing, but like a thing that you're addicted to or your compulsions to,
instead of trying to quit cold turkey? And to me, there's there's some
of that, Like when he goes out as Batman, it's letting out the
steam. It's letting it because if it builds up and builds up and builds
up and he isn't Batman for a long time, then yeah, maybe he
is going to just snap or you know, go do something that he doesn't
want to do. Yeah, I mean, well, so, first of
all, I think the quick cold turkey does work for some people sometimes definitely,
but it definitely is not a universal This is a way that will definitely
work for everybody. Right, The twelve step model has a much higher you
know, failure rate than people often like to talk about it, but it
absolutely does work for something people. Yeah, I mean I know people you
know seventeen years or whatever and it's like, you know, it's worked for
them, and then other people it's like you know, in and out and
try this, try that, and nothing has so or something else has,
Right, I mean, yeah, for some people, it is like,
you know, a little bit of something is functional, you know, personally,
Like I also have a I don't know if I used to say kind
of addictive, but like I think just kind of extremist. Like I'm just
like, this is either something I want to do a lot of or I'm
not going to do it. You know. It's like I've I've always had
a hard time being like this is a thing that I'm I'm going to just
do a little of. It's like that's never been a thing that's just all
that interesting to me. Most of the time. I'm experimenting with it with
podcasting now, but yeah, you know, we'll see, we'll see how
it goes. Um. But like, yeah, I and for that reason,
I was just like, no, I'm not going to do any of
those drugs, because you know, I understand that many are physically addictive,
others are habit forming in ways that maybe don't have the same chemical dependency,
but like I'm just like, I know, I you know, I mean,
I remember when a friend of mine tried coke for the first time and
was like, well, you know, probably I'll just do it once and
whenever I'm like yeah, but like what's the upside, Like what are you
hoping for? You know, like what's the best outcome? Like you don't
like it or like and I don't mean this as like a moral judgment or
whatever, but it's just like, you know, it's expensive and harmful to
your body, and so it's like, you know, if that's what you're
into, that's what you're into. But like in terms of like getting into
it, it's just like strategically, I'm just like, what's the plan?
You know, And it's like, well, let me give a more specific
example of a place where and you can argue whether the word addiction fits here
or not, or compulsion or whatever. But I am someone who's always had
of eating problems, and I have a very slow metabolism. I don't really
know what it feels like to be hungry. I mostly eat because I want
self gratification. I want a physical sensation that will take me out of my
brain. I want to reward myself. I want validation all sorts of physical
things, and often like eating, like you know, foods that are quote
unquote bad for me, you know, And I should just say quickly here,
this is not a diet culture rant diet culture's bullshit. People are beautiful
in all body sizes and shapes. Don't ever feel like you got to be
pressured to that. I'm just talking about. I felt like my eating was
out of I wasn't in control of what I was eating, and I didn't
like that feeling, and I was having negative physical effects on me, primarily
because of my disability. So quick disclaimer there for that being said, What
I would find is that I would eat foods that were not the best for
me without really being fully conscious of it or without really wanting to. And
I've attempted to quit cold turkey many times and it never ever works. But
I have found that if I let myself say one day a week, I'm
going to have something like that in a moderate proportion, then if it's Tuesday
and I really want that thing, I can tell myself, you know what,
you're gonna get it in three days and that's gonna be okay, and
that when I have it, I can say, you know what, I
only need a couple of pieces of of the you know, fried fried tofu
or you know whatever it is, or the candy or whatever it is,
because I can always have it another day. Yes, I was gonna say
something like fried chicken and then to fall, I'm just like which as the
treat Yeah no, no, that was a weird, like hip fake towards
trying to respect the vegan. That's not how I meant it. Um,
But yeah, and like and so for me, And again, I'm sure
all of you have suggestions on the better way to deal with my eating issues.
This is one hundred percent not in invitation. Please no feedback on that
regard. I just want to use it as an example of if I leave
myself that little steam release, it works. And so I feel like,
in that same kind of a way, if Batman can tell himself like,
I'm not gonna go kill this person, I'm not gonna. I'm not going
to give into that part of me that wants what Dexter wants, right,
But yeah, I am gonna go punch a bad guy. And it's I'm
going to tell myself all the ways in which this is restrained. I'm not
gonna, but it feeds some part of me that has been there ever since
I watched my parents got murdered. It makes sense for him, Yeah,
I mean with the addendum that it's not oh well, on Friday night,
I'll go out and punch bad guys. It's every night, you know,
it's yeah, every night, all night, like, except when he has
to pretend to be Bruce Wayne, or pretend to be the Bruce Wayne.
That's a mask, you know. So I I hear what you're saying,
and I think that's a very interesting perspective and a completely valid interpretation, you
know. And you know, I wouldn't necessarily say that I've come around to
share that interpretation, but I think that, you know, I mean,
like you said, it's character with eighty five year history, Like some of
the versions are definitely that, you know, and some of them are definitely
definitely less that I'd say, but yeah, and many of them are written
interesting, Like everything I've said is based on our current understanding psychologically of compulsions
and addictions R trauma that we didn't have for most of history. Sure,
yeah, yeah, exactly, and some of which is probably quite wrong and
will there will be a you know, more more nuanced or more effective understanding
in ten twenty thirty years, who knows, you know. Yeah, I
mean, even with Batman, that is both one of I think at times
frustrating when it's just used as a throwaway attack on him, but also potentially
really interesting questions. Is the now that we know what we know today,
Okay, what if Alfred had said maybe instead of kickboxing, I'm going to
take you to trauma therapy, know, like would that have helped in some
way? And I think those are interesting questions or you know, like,
um, we the movie The Insuperherothics, we did an episode about, you
know, in gross point blank where Martin is in therapy. Like it's not
the same thing. But I think Bruce talking out his feelings to Clark Kent
is a level of self reflection and of seeking outside you know, response to
that reflection that I don't think we would have seen, you know, in
the fifties, the seventies and the nineties. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, I
agree. And you know, it's it's like the end of Iron Man three
also right right where it's like it's it's therapy, but it's not therapy.
It's like I'm not that kind of doctor, you know, but but it
is. I mean, but that's the thing though, it's like talking to
your friends about things seriously and really doing deep introspection like it is therapy.
Like they're not a professional therapist, but it's like, I mean, it's
not literally therapy, but it's like it can serve a lot of this therapeutic
that's a better word, thank you. Yes, exactly exactly, it can
be therapeutic. Sometimes it can be really bad. I mean, you know
what it depends. You know, as the person who has resting therapy face
but also for a long time had a need to be needed. You can
get into that relationship with a friend and it's codependent and bad and terrible,
and be very careful of that. Yeah, exactly. It's it's something that
can be good and can be less less good. Yea, Yeah, talk
to professionals, but also talk to friends. We'll talk to you know,
colleagues. So all of this anything, I think it's very important we had
all this discussion first because it can already inform the second part of the discussion,
because I actually have a very different answer to why I think the Redhood
story is so interesting because all what you said I think is true. Yeah,
but to me, the Red Hood story, what would it really rate.
What it also raises is this question of is Bruce helping these traumatized kids
by making them his sidekick and turning them into Robin and kind of a chance
to unpack and analyze all of that because and that that, I think especially
has become a very popular thing to do. And I think it's not unrelated
to the fact that a lot of the night Wing stories, particularly Titans,
but a lot of other ones, start out with Dick Grayson being like really
mad at Batman and really wanting like some separation from him, and that that
often that is kind of them that the Jason Todd's story is often told as
the Jason sees Nightwing being rebellious against Batman, and so Jason's like, no,
no, no, no, no, I have to be utterly loyal.
I have to be completely loyal, and that that's kind of like that's
why he falls so far in some ways. So let me kind of just
ask you this nice, simple, basic question. Is Batman helping or hurting
kids like Tim and Dick and Jason by making them robins? Simple binary right,
yes? Simple binary yes? Helping anwer It's I mean, he's helping
them do what they want to do when they choose to be Robin, you
know, And I mean I respect the agency of you know, humans from
a pretty young age, you know, like I think if a two year
old wants to walk into traffic, you should stop them, you know,
Like I'm not like, oh, well, that's their choice, you know.
And you could say, yeah, well, if a ten year old
wants to go out and fight crime, like maybe that's like a two year
old stepping into traffic, right. So I think there's a point at which
it's reasonable to kind of take them into the field with you when that's what
they want to do. I probably think that point is a lot younger than
most people, or I certainly don't think it's based on some arbitrary number of
cycles around the sun. You know, it's like, oh, well,
eighteen, yeah, you can get a gun and then go off to war
and get killed and kill people. I don't know if seventeen can't. I
don't want to put words in your mouth, but would you agree with a
statement that for some people thirteen is old enough and for some people seventeen isn't
old enough, because like I'm actually youre sure in very different ways. Yeah,
absolutely, And so I think most of these kids have gone through certain
trauma. I think kids like Jason, actually, I think Jason kind of
saw more of the world than Dick did at a certain age, right.
I mean Dick literally saw a lot of the world because it's like in a
circus, so they're traveling and stuff, I think, But like, you
know, I mean he was like a street kid, right, Like yeah,
I mean Batman met him when he stole the wheels off the Batmobile and
Batman's like that, that's impressive, you know, kid did this, and
so like, yeah, I think it's a subjective judgment. I don't think
it's the sort of thing where you know, a particular age is the age,
right. It's not like, oh yeah, well thirteen year olds are
definitely fine, and you're wrong that it's eighteen. It's like, no,
there's it's not a magical time when somebody becomes old enough to do really any
given thing, in my opinion. But you know, in this case,
it's like it's I mean, here's the thing. It's like, this is
a world of comic book physics, you know, and comic book martial arts,
and if you're good enough, you can always dodge the bullet, you
know, and like that's not that's not the way our world works, you
know. But like so I think within the comic of the context of the
comics. I think it makes a fair amount of sense. I definitely think
that the you know, the kind of teenage Robbins generally seem like a better
idea than like ten to eleven year old Robbins, you know. But yeah,
I mean in terms of long term helping or hurting, Like, I
don't know. To me, it just it almost like that's not the question.
The question is like, was it their choice or was it something?
And it was like, hey, kid, you want to dress up like
me and go out in the street and you know, do cool stuff.
Oh yeah, we're going to get shot at and you know, we're gonna
be hitting people and stuff. It's like, I don't think that's good.
But like you know when when they're like, no, I want to be
like Batman, and it's like, I don't know that's what they want,
you know, And I just I respect that their own choice. Basically,
Yeah, I think I'm kind of in a similar place, though I'm a
little more critical of Batman, but I think in the but I think that
I understand it. And again, to me and I have a therapy background,
both of someone who's been a patient for most of my life, but
also someone who has a lot of training in it and was did a lot
of I was not a licensed therapist as a pastor, but I had therapyt
of training because there's a pastoral counseling aspect and all that. The harm reduction
model is to me a very important way of thinking about these things. And
that it's like sometimes you like you judge, we can have a sort of
same and of like Okay, well this person is doing a bad thing,
but actually look like, okay, what are they doing and what are the
alternatives? And is this reducing harm? You know? And that's so you
know, a lot of times like behavior that we can see in a vacuum
as problematic because like, well, they don't have the alternative, or they
don't think they have the alternative. And I think for me, knowing everything
I know now about childhood trauma and violence and all the rest of it,
I would be hard pressed to say that I think Batman's solution to his childhood
trauma is something I could like put a healthy stamp on. But I think
it's a very I think it is very good harm reduction. I think he
has found what is the best way he can conceive of with his mentality in
the world he was created in, which is not a world in which people,
especially not you know, independent men, went to therapy to deal with
And I think what he's kind of doing, and to me, I think
the stories I most resonate with is where he sees, as you said,
they already want to be, but what they want to do. They want
to become the phantasm. They want to become the punisher instead of becoming Batman.
And so he's kind of saying, look, I'm walking this path.
I want to give you the chance to walk it too. He's kind of
giving them the third way in a way. Yeah, I think so,
Yeah, And I think then the question can be by giving them the third
way, is he cutting off their chance to find the fourth, the fifth,
and the sixth way? Right? But also you know, but that's
again what the solution is. Yeah, And here also I think there's a
level in which connecting it to Dexter makes a lot of sense because and forgive
me for spoilers for a show that's now like what ten or fifteen years old
times a flat circle. One of the things I think it's like they have
to keep coming up with new ideas to make new seasons work. And so
one of the things that happens is he frequently finds people who have the same
compulsions that he does, and sometimes he finds them and these are some of
the worst villains he deals with, but who never had the Harry that the
father figure to teach him how to, if not control, direct the colon
and a healthier way channel. Yeah, but sometimes he finds someone who's the
other direction, who once they actually do kill the specific person that wronged them,
or someone who's a good stand in for the specific person that wronged them,
they're like, I'm good, I'm okay now, And it's kind of
heartbreaking for Dexter, but it makes a lot of sense of him being able
to be like, oh, I guess it's good. You can just move
on. Yeah, And I think that's an element of the I think in
some ways that's a part of the night Wing story that I think is really
interesting, and that is in some of the night Wing stuf, at least
that I've seen. He never speaks ab in those terms, but he kind
of does. He kind of brings up this idea of like Bruce did worked
for him, I don't need it the same way I wasn't affected in the
same way, and I thought I was as a kid, and I still
do want to do some good, but it's not the same for me.
Yeah, yeah, I really like the ways in which, you know,
Nightwing and Batman are are different, you know, and and kind of the
way the different Robbins and eventual Batman like become they sort of you know,
show how there are different paths along you know, branching from you know,
the same initial path right unique you know, I mean you have Damien,
who's like more Jason than Jason. You know, you have Dick, who's
like just it's like, yeah, you know, I kind of did all
that and I'm good now. And I mean there's obviously different versions of Barbara,
but like the Batman beyond Barbara was like, yeah, I don't I
don't need to wear the suit anymore. Like she's still in you know,
she becomes a police commissioner, so she decides to go down her dad's route
instead of you know, batman hands route. But like, um, yeah,
I think it's interesting to see like how I mean, there's I think
you might be thinking specifically, especially of the fifth season of Dexter, right
where Yeah, it's a Julia Stiles season, you know, and I season
four, I like almost quit the show, and then like I watched five
and I was like that was that was my favorite non first two seasons of
this show, you know, because I really did kind of like the idea
of someone who was really angry for very legitimate reasons, you know, one
in Vengeance wanted to stop these people doing what they were doing, and then
did that and was like, yeah, I'm good, you know. I
mean, there was another Batman. I think it might be Gotham my gas
Light. I'm not sure, but there's another Gotham story we we covered.
No, it was Long Halloween. Oh yeah, that's basically exactly that,
right, it's someone who at the end, yeah, Batman realized, like
spoilers from Long Halloween. Yeah, but yeah, it's exactly that. The
person's like I did the killing, and Batman's like, yeah, I wish
you hadn't done that, but you're done, and I believe you right exactly,
Like you were a serial killer for a reason. Not it wasn't your
identity, it was a thing you were doing, and you've completed that,
all right, I guess Yeah that's that, you know, which kind of
tangent land back to the long Halloween story, but it's relevant. It's funny
because I'm surprised that I didn't occur to me in the moment. But I
do think there's a flaw with that, because I wonder then what happens the
next time someone does something truly wrong to her or someone she loves, you
know, and like, does she remember that, Wait, this method I
had of finding justice before worked, And I mean, you hope that nothing
horribly tragic happens to her again? Yeah? Yeah, But then there's also
the question of, like, if something horrily tragic happens to another person in
her family, does she go down the same route? And then does it
start increasing until it's like, oh, well, you you cut off my
second cousin in traffic, So now you know I'm going to go into full
on murder mode again. I mean, you look at how people drive,
and like, I can't blame her, but you drive in California and fairness,
and everyone's very Vegas. I don't know, I've seen how you drive.
Um, I don't drive. Everybody else does cheap shot? Cheap shot?
Um no? I UM. I think at the end of that Batman's
like, you know, kind of I'll be watching you or something, right,
that's fair. And if you look over all the stories over the year,
watching a lot of people, yeah, you know, but but yeah,
I I do think it comes down to, you know, the like,
well, do you really think that this person is going to do this
again? Or is this like an outlier event? Right, I mean it
seems unlikely that something like all of that was going to happen again to that
person, you know that was But at the same time, sure, like,
yeah, I think you keep an eye on someone once, you know,
once they start down that dark path. You're like, all right,
I'm at least I got you know, yeah, we got eyes on you.
You're being surveiled, just you know, every now and then you drop
some kind of creepy like I'm watching you thing just to remind them, and
then you don't actually have to watch them as much. You know, you're
just like I saw this, you know. Anyway, back back to the
Jason Todd of it all, I do find also that I like stories in
which Bruce is willing to admit that he's wrong at times and grow sometimes and
Titans, I think tights and again it's become very fashionable to dunk on Batman
and Bruce Wayne all the time, and I think there's some very legit critique,
and I think it's also just become kind of a meme that goes further
than I would like in many cases, and I think Titans dumps on Batman
a lot more than sometimes it's justified. But again, it's told mostly through
the primary character, so it's his point of view. But one of the
things Dick posits, which I don't think is in this version of the Red
Hood, but I like as a possible interpretation, is that when Batman takes
on Jason Todd, he does he has lost Dick Grayson. At this point,
Dick Grayson and him are fairly estranged, and you know, he thinks
he did all this to be really good to Dick and to help Dick,
and Dick is like, f you, you really screwed me up. And
but then Dick keeps doing the same stuff though, right well right, And
a part of the thing that Dick is dealing with is like, did you
help me, did you make it so that this compulsion will never go away?
Or did you give me a healthy way to deal with this? Compulsion
or did you stop me from just getting rid of this compulsion? Sure?
And so in there there's some level of Bruce admitting that he was trying to
kind of like fix what he had done wrong with Dick with Ja and that
that's part of what happens there, and that's, you know, interesting thing
I have watched. You can comment, Okay, this is a show,
but I think there's a it's it makes some interesting points about the characters that
I love, and and the story that it tells to make those points is
very bad. Okay, Um, I kind of think it was like the
the the prequels of the like that, Oh sure, sure, yeah,
Like you understand some things about Anakin because of them, but you're not enamored
with the quality of the storytelling. Yeah, exactly. So let me ask
this, though, this is the kind of last big thing I want to
arrestle with, because they do wrestle with it in this, especially somewhat in
Under the Red Hood, but especially in the Death and the Family where he's
talking to to Bruce, he admits this, more it feels like it feels
like one of the central tensions and almost like you can call it hypocrisy or
you can call it like a tension that Bruce is wrestling with is he wants
to give these kids a chance to go out in the field because he thinks
they're going to do it anyway, but he also wants to protect them and
stop them from going out in the field more than they should. And you
see elements of this a lot, and he flat out says it to Superman
where he says, like, I wish night Wing would stop coming to help
me. I keep telling him to stop coming to help me, but he
keeps doing it, and honestly, he keeps saving me. But I can't
ever tell him that, right because it would encourage him basically right. And
to me, I think I don't think this is which projection implied. I
think this is very clearly supposed to be meant by the writers. Like we
have seen that one of the things Jason wanted was more approval and more validation
from Batman, and that he really wrestled with when Batman told him not to
go out of things like to me, part of what I got about that
is that his desire to protect these kids is part of what's causing them sometimes
to do dumber and dumber things, to try and prove something to him or
to get their validas validation or something like that. Yeah. Maybe, I
mean I didn't really have a strong feeling that way or not that way,
but I definitely think you know, I mean you said, you know,
Nightwing has an annoying habit of showing up exactly when I need him to.
But like I don't want him too because of what happened to Jason and I,
you know, I don't want him to be getting into you know,
danger and whatever. But like he ditches Nightwing repeatedly in Under the Redmon,
right, like Nightwing helps with the thing. Okay, cool, now I'm
going to go chase this thing. Now I'm gonna leave you here, bye
bye, you know, and he's like, oh, you got injured,
Okay, go home, you know, whereas I'm sure Batman would be like,
just tape it up and I'll get back out there with the same injury.
And so yeah, the idea that they are actually taking bigger risks and
trying to be more you know, like look what I can do kind of
yeah, Like it is funny. It's how like not encouraging someone can actually
encourage them more in a way, right as opposed to being like yeah you
did good, cool, okay. Yeah, although then again like giving the
positive FEVA, it's like if somebody wants your approval, they just want your
approval, and like, yeah, I'm I don't really know exactly the best
way to deal with that. I don't know. Yeah, you know,
I mean, there's there's real it's kind of going to what I said before
of like I think that for many humans, perhaps not you know, those
on high in the mountain like yourself, but for many humans, outside validation
I think is a healthy thing to desire. I think it has to be
mixed with a fundamentally good level of self validation and self love, and that
when you're seeking out outside validation to replace any sense of self worth, you
know, then it becomes really problematic. And I think, you know,
that's a question you can really look at with with night Wing, with Jason,
with all these other kind of people. Yeah. Yeah, I mean
I think I think external validation as like kind of like a line check.
You know, it's just sort of like, hey, I did this,
what do you know do you think? Do you think that is good?
Yeah? That's good, okay, cool, thanks, you know, or
like you know, oh, well, did you think about this actually?
And I was like, oh no, I didn't. You know. It's
like, you know, and it's funny because Batman will say he doesn't get
it. He literally pays someone to give it to him. I mean,
al phrase that all the time, including also sometimes calling him out when yeah,
yeah, Alfred's not always just Alfred almost often ends up a little bit
at odds or often often questioning or being like are you sure you don't want
to stay home? Okay? You know, I'll get the car gas stop,
you know kind of thing. I would argue, that's not necessarily what
he pays Alfred for. And I feel like Alfred pays himself out of Bruce
Wayne's money, you know, like I don't. I don't see Bruce writing
checks, you know what I mean. And I think that some of the
most interesting Alfred's stories are where Alfred either is unclear or even has a strong
idea of like is he is he working for Bruce Wayne or is he working
for Thomas and Martha Wayne? Right? And then I think is often one
of the interesting dynamics there too. Yeah, for sure. One thing I'll
kind of add to that is and again here maybe I'm dunking on Batman too
much, but I think it's something that I see acknowledge more and more,
and I to me, I feel like he leaning in this direction with Clark
in the Death of the Family one and were we going to do a Patreon
thing? We were? I think that's uh. This is also I have
a different patron than I'm gonna um and it's kind of the last point I'll
make and then I want to let you respond and then also bring up any
last things you want to do. Surprise, we had a lot to say
on this topic, probably me. I think I've talked about which I talked
to too. I went on a bunch of tangents. I was like,
I wonder if we'll be able to get enough at it, Like somehow,
somehow I still had that thought again, like, well, I thought gross
point blank would be the struggle but anyway, cutting off that tangent at the
route or no, I'm not going to get into stop st Matthew convulsion tendencies,
excellency can't. What I think is the other interesting tart to this is
the way in which Bruce doesn't want to acknowledge the family because I think when
when Bruce says to someone like nightwing like, yes, you're coming to save
me, but I don't want you to do that. What I think of
is the parent who is convinced that their job as a parent is to not
let their kids worry, but in thinking that, they're pretty deep in denial,
because the fact is the kids are going to worry, and they're gonna
worry a lot more if the parent doesn't let them help in some way,
especially once they're there. And to me, that's that's the thing that I
kind of most wanted Clark to kind of shake him about, but I do
think he kind of starts to get there, especially because in some ways,
I think I kind of think Bruce finds two families and he's someone he's kind
of like the the grumpiest stranged uncle with all of the Robins and bat kids,
and he's kind of like the estranged cousin who stands at the side of
the cook out the barbecue with Justice League. But he has some of that
with you know, with with Clark and with Diana and all the rest,
because I think part of that that's exactly what's happening with Nightwingers. He thinks
that he doesn't realize that there's no way Dick can like if Bruce died Batman
died because I'm saying i'd be say because but and Dick thinks that Dick could
have saved him. That's gonna be a psychologically destructive to Dick and the way
that thinks Bruce doesn't understand. And so I kind of really like that how
it highlights that as well. Yeah, for sure. I mean, if
we're talking kind of about the death of a death in the family on Max
sort of it's it's like a recap epilogue kind of thing, you know.
Um, I really enjoyed getting to hear a lot of Bruce's thoughts and justifications,
which a lot of which do feel like justifications. You know. He's
like, yeah, I shouldn't have let them do this, I should have
made sure this happened. I should have you know, there's there's no wee,
there's no It's like it's all like he's taking responsibility for everything onto himself
and not kind of recognizing that other people, like like he's very much not
giving night Wing agency in terms of like do you want to be involved with
this? And that's because of his guilt. I think over Jason and feeling
like he should have not let Jason b Robin basically, you know, I
mean I think I think he regrets that or or or the way he did
it. Like I think he's a little unclear on it. But he's basically
just like, no, this, I have to do everything alone now because
you know, um, really what he should do is just be like I'm
just gonna bust Superman real quick and let him take care of some of these
things. But now, um, it is always interesting, and it's like
there's the Batman and the Robins, and then like then there's the Justice League,
and it's like how did those things actually fit together? You know?
It's like, okay, like in Young Justice, you'll see you know,
I mean some of the Robins become important characters, right, but in the
Justice League, like they don't have any of the sidekicks except like Speedy shows
up for a minute, you know, and it's like thinking about how those
things actually fit together. It's a little a little interesting. How do the
small Gotham issues interrupts Sacks with the like alien invasions and like there's a scene
in which he fights um not Mysterio, who who's he fights in azo im
yeh, he fights a mazo in under the Red Hood, And I'm like
really, because yeah, I'm so in a Batman story, I'm used to
him fighting basically criminals, right right, And sometimes there's criminals who have some
really cool tech that kind of pushes them into the super villain variety. Yeah,
sometimes they're a little bit supernatural, but they're rarely like you know,
like he doesn't fight Zod. He didn't fight right right right, like like
those that level of villains. So yeah, watching him fight a Mazo,
I was like, yeah, this, this is a this is a tone
because there's like Gotham is fundamentally different than Metropolis, and I think it is.
Any part of why Justice League works so well is because yeah, well
to the TV show, there's animated Justice League series, Snyder Verse Black,
but there's not um. Yeah, anyway, that's that's all grand we'vecover before.
Yeah, anyway, one of the last things you want to bring up
or talk about about Robin in the Red Hood and this whole story, Yeah,
I mean one was just that goals regret at using the joke or as
a distraction kind of reminded me of like we just did the last few episodes
of The Clone Wars, where Asoka uses Mall as a distraction. You know,
go cause chaos. That's what you're good at, you know. And
I felt like an interesting kind of a little parallel. I don't have much
to say about that, and it's just a little thing. It reminds me.
Actually have another parallel that I noticed, which is that I feel like
Batman's feelings for Clark and Batman's feelings for Rachel Gul kind of similar. Yeah,
Like he sees them both as in his general line of work, using
methods that he somewhat disagrees with. Right, He disagrees with Rachel Gul a
lot more, for sure. But he says at one point, like I
have real respect for Rache because he does have a code that he follows,
you know, And I think that's for Bruce. I think a really big
thing is like, if you're following a code, you're not going to go
overboard. And I think Rachel's code, he's already that, but he does.
He did. There's a point where's, yeah, I know Rache wouldn't
do this, right, Yeah, he knows there are there are a certainty
not a variable. Basically it's like he knows what he's capable of, he
knows what he's willing to do. You know, he knows what Superman is
capable of unless he gets possessed by Um Dark Side and then you know,
and then you got the gryptonite for that um exactly. Yeah. And the
other thing was just that the whole thing at the end, like where Jason,
Jason isn't mad that like that, he's not mad at at Batman for
letting the Joker capture him and kill him. He doesn't blame him for that.
I mean, Batman was even like, don't go to that warehouse on
your own. The Joker's too dangerous, you know, Like, which is
interesting that the Jokers thought of as being that dangerous because like she's like he's
just a guy, you know. Yeah, but like he's an unpretty he's
unpredictable, you know, he's the opposite of Rachel Goule. Like, I
mean, I kind of think the Joker's main powers that he's got charisma twenty
five. Yeah, you just recruit henchman to do anything and a moment's noted
right exactly exactly, and and so you know, so I think Jason takes
responsibility for Like I decided to come to Europe to help with this, to
investigate this thing. I teamed up with you after I, you know,
made these these discoveries of stuff. You went off to do this one thing
and said stay here and watch the warehouse and I was like, no,
I'm going to go into the warehouse. The joker caught me and killed me,
and that's on me, you know. Yeah, but why didn't you
Avenge? Like why do you why is he still breathing? Basically after he
did this to me, Like why didn't that make you mad enough to cross
that line? You know, like it would it just be too hard.
And that's when Batman's like, too hard, it would be too easy,
you know, And then then he goes on this whole thing. But like
it's just interested to me that, like the whole thing, like Bruce's whole
thing is about like feeling like he should have protected Jason. He should have
you know, he was irresponsible and letting him be in the field and stuff,
and Jason's like, no, that's fine, you know, right,
I just want you to kill this guy, that's all. Yeah. I
mean, kind of going back to what we're saying, it's like Jason absolutely
sees Batman through the kind of therapeutic lens that I was positing, and and
Jason sort of has that idea of, yeah, if if something pushes Batman
enough, he will snap and kill someone. Right, why was it my
death? Right? Why wasn't my death that thing? Basically? Yeah,
why wasn't this one bad day? Right? Yeah? Which, you know
it it sounds like in that regard, it can sound ridiculous, but like
that's you know how often you hear like you know, like you know,
why wasn't you know, why wasn't my pain enough of a motivator for you
to do this other thing? Which I think there's some validity too. There's
a whole lot of real psychological problems. That sounds pretty unhealthy, but you
know, but given who Jason has been his entire life, it makes total
sense. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, any of the last things.
No, just I mean I think when you add that with like the
killing joke, it's basically kind of like because this takes place after the killing
joke, right, because replasically a reference Barber we're gonna shot. Yeah,
I think it's just kind of like, yeah, maybe Bruce Wayne's not one
bad day away from becoming the Joker, you know, Like that's to me,
that's kind of the conclusion. Not everyone's necessarily one bad day away from
becoming whatever, Like and maybe that whole journey of kind of facing I want
to kill Joe Chill or whoever or whatever, you know, punch criminals until
the world's not that way. Like maybe like this Batman has actually worked through
that to the point where it's like, no, I'm just not going to
kill people. I've made that decision. That's final, and like, you
know, I'm just going to do the thing the way I said I was
going to do the thing, which and I will say I think as someone
has seen a bunch of versions of this story, both as Batman, but
also people have told the version of the story in a lot of different superhero
john as well, including the Arrow Verse. The Arrow tells almost every Batman
story, right, yeah, yeah, they just appropriate all the Batman stories.
I think this is one of the absolute best. One of my only
critiques is that they put so much of the onus of why Jason becomes the
Red Hood on the Lazarus Pit. Oh yeah, because because I think this
is the killer. I think I think Jason Todd is proof that maybe Bruce
Wayne isn't one bad day, but Jason Todd absolutely was. Yeah, yeah,
yeah, And I mean the way I kind of interpret it, which
is one hundred percent headcannon, is that like the Lazarus Pit gave him a
sort of like temporary madness that like he couldn't then have a conversation with Rash
and Talia or whatever, and he just like killed some people and ran away.
But then as he's recovering from the immediate effects of the Lazarus Pit,
like this is who he is, you know, Like my headcanon is that
this you know, red Hood is not the Jason Todd that was created by
the Lazarus Pit. It's Jason Todd created by the chain of events, and
that the Lazarus Pit was more this temporary effect and that's definitely not the text
of the story. But also the story doesn't like repeatedly tell you about the
Lazarus Pit like yeah, turning him into whatever. So like it's one of
those things where you can kind of be like, yeah, I can just
kind of smoothly head cannon down this slope and then you know, but I
agree with you, Yeah, and I like that I Cannon. I think
I have a similar one, but it's more the Lazar Pit kind of like
brings out your worst ins, So that like is like it basically the Lazarus
Pit. Like if there's any little part of Jason that would have fought him
become in the Red Hood, Yeah, but then he probably would have become
the Red Hood anyway, you know, sure in some degree or another.
Yeah, I'm done with that all right. I think it's a good place
to wrap up. Um. Paul is the zen madman, prettybody who wants
to find his stuff. He's kind of taking a pause and some creative stuff.
But there's a lot of great stuff out there on YouTube and other places
you want to learn about poker or learn about things. Paul's written novels,
like Paul's written books, you definitely go check them out. Paul Christopher Hoppy
myself, I am the Ethical Panda. You go to the Ethical Panda dot
com. You find all my podcasts, you find the other creative stuff I
do. I'm trying to create on TikTok a lot more, and I'm starting
to dip my toe back into Twitch streaming. I'm gonna try it for a
week or two and just kind of see when I do it and when I
don't do it. I'm not gonna try and start on a schedule yet,
because I think it's good to have a schedule. I think I think not
having a schedule is bad. I think setting a schedule and they're not sticking
to it as worse. So I'm gonna start being pretty random, try and
give people a couple hours notice sometimes, although I probably just start streaming the
moment I'm done recording this, which you won't care about because you're gonna hear
it in two weeks. But yeah, Twitch dot Com, Backslash or regular
Slash, the Ethical Panda, all the notes through in the show notes,
and most importantly though, all those are good places to give us feedback.
What do you think of this story? Is this your favorite version of the
story? Do you have other versions you like better? What do you think
was Bruce totally right? Is Bruce totally wrong? Let us know in the
feedback We would love to hear from you. Well, in the Patreon section,
we're gonna talk more about the idea of sidekicks in general and where Robin
ranks up against some other sidekicks. But until then, for everybody else who's
not a part of that on math, myself and Paul, thank you so
much. We have spoken, We've found a way to win. What are you us