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Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg
Corumbus. Our guest in this edition is

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Michelle Curran, callsign Mace. Curran
served in the US Air Force for thirteen

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years, serving as a fighter pilot
and ultimately as a lead solo pilot for

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the prestigious Air Force Thunderbirds. She
was also now an author. Her brand

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new children's book is entitled Upside Down
Dreams and encourages all girls to reach for

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their biggest dreams. And Mace,
thanks so much for being with us.

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Yeah, absolutely, it's pleasure.
Where were you born and raised? So?

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I was born and raised in a
small town northern Wisconsin called Medford.

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It's about four thousand people. Was
there a history of military service in your

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family? Not a lot. So
my grandpa was actually a lieutenant in World

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War Two, and so he was
all across the world in the Pacific on

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a boat. He had some incredible
stories that I heard secondhand, since he

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passed away when I was about two
years old, so I don't actually have

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any memory of him. But one
threat that was there. He had his

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naval trunk that had Lieutenant Kerns stamped
down the end of it, and it

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was at my grandma's house, and
when I was a kid growing up,

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I saw that as like this treasure
chest of adventure, Like I would open

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it and just the things that were
in there were so exciting to me.

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There were photos from all over the
world. There was his pipe, his

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glasses, his uniforms, letters he
had written to my grandma, And so

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there wasn't a direct tie there where
I was having conversations about him, and

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there wasn't anyone in my family that
was still living. But I think that

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definitely got me intrigued about the opportunities
and the ability to travel and see the

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world that the military could provide.
How did you first develop your interest in

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flying? So it was later.
I was a very adventurous, thrill seeking

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kid, but not coming from a
military family, and then not an aviation

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Asian family either. I just didn't
have a lot of exposure to that world.

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And as I got closer to college, my parents were like, Hey,

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you have really good grades, but
we don't have a college fund for

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you. Let's look at ways you
can pay for education. Let's look at

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scholarship opportunities. And my dad actually
had seen the ROTC Cadets when he was

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in college he's I think you should
look into this. There might be opportunities

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there, and I think you would
actually really do well in that program.

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And initially I was resistant. I
wanted to be a normal college kid or

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what in my probably seventeen year old
brain at the time thought a normal college

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kid did, and I didn't see
how the military fit into that. But

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after a little bit of exploration,
it ended up being a good fit and

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I realized all the opportunities that could
come from it beyond just the free education.

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So once I was in ROTC,
though, I was a criminal justice

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major, because my whole plan was
to do four years to pay back the

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time for the education, probably doing
like special investigations osi that kind of thing,

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and then get out and go to
the FBI. That was kind of

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my career goal as a young college
student. But about halfway through, we

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went on a base visit down to
Tindall Air Force Base in Florida, and

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I got to see there's actually two
F fifteens taking off at dusk and full

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afterburner, and I was standing on
the ramp and that was like the first

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time I had been up close around
high performance aircraft, and it was just

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a transformative experience for me. It
was jaw dropping. I got goosebumps,

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and I was just like, how
do I go do that? And that's

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where it all started. It's just
kind of an awesome moment. Or was

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there just the idea that somebody can
do that with a plane that just mesmerized

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you. I think it had always
been one of those things that intrigued me

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a little bit, just like the
how exciting it looked. I just loved

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roller coasters. I loved going upside
down, I had gone skydiving. I

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just really liked that those kinds of
things, and it seemed like a career

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filled where you could do that type
of stuff for a living. That's hindsight,

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being twenty twenty, that is a
very naive view of it, because

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turns out the flying of the airplane
is very high performance and it is like

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a roller coaster, but that's just
such a small portion of the skill you

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have to have to actually be a
good fighter pilot, which I dealt with

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figuring out and learning all of that
later, But my initial reaction was kind

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of just one of wanting to go
after that excitement. Now, there had

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been plenty of female combat pilots I
believe by the time you were commissioned,

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But did you have any hesitation about
going into that? And because it was

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still generally a male dominated field,
I think as far as my role as

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a fighter pilot and gender it,
my view went through kind of three phases.

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So when I decided I wanted to
do it, I didn't really think

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about it, like I was just
like, this is what I want to

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do. And the fact that I
was going to be one of only like

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there's about three percent of fighter pilots
in the Air Force that are women,

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so I'm one of a handful,
it didn't really of course I was aware

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of it, but it didn't really
affect my decision either way. I was

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like, Oh, this isn't a
big deal. It's open to us.

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There's been several that have followed before
me or gone before me, Like,

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this isn't a big deal. Then
as I got into my pilot training class

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and I was the only woman in
class of twenty five, it was highlighted

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to me a lot. And then
as I got a fighter spot, which

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only two fight aircraft were available to
our class of twenty five, so I

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was standing out among my peers,
which put me under a microscope even more.

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And as I got to the F
sixteen B course where we spend a

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year learning to fly that aircraft specifically, I was one of two, and

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then same was one of two.
When I got to my first combat squadron,

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it just was highlighted to me again
and again, everything from just comments

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people would make and nothing that was
like them intentionally trying to be like to

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exclude me or to be mean.
It was just like subtle little things that

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I noticed that they probably didn't even
realize they were doing, but things like

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the gear not fitting, they're not
being away for us to go to the

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bathroom in the aircraft, like stuff
like that that you just don't think about

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from an outside perspective, but that
gets really frustrating when it's day and day

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out you're constantly having to solve these
problems. So then there was the period

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where I wished I was a guy
fighter biot, you know, I like,

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it was a frustration to me.
And then further on in my career,

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as I got closer to applying to
the Thunderbirds, I was starting to

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be in these experiences where I saw
how impactful it could be for other women

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or for girls to see me doing
what I was doing, And by the

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time I got to the Thunderbirds,
I really viewed as viewed it as an

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asset because the team's mission is to
recruit, retain an inspire and there is

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no doubt that I could do that
in a different way to half the population

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than my peers could. And it
was just so powerful the interactions I got

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to have, especially with young women
and girls who are at like a very

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transformative age and they're constantly being inundated
with perfect action on social media and comparison,

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and it's just a tough time and
especially the last few years for that

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age group. And to see the
positive impact I could leave on them through

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one simple conversation that only took a
few minutes of my time was just so

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rewarding. And that's what kind of
led me to the children's book and what

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I'm doing now, because I wanted
to figure out how I could keep doing

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that. You mentioned that there weren't
overt negative reactions to you, but it

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was subtle things along the way.
Did that change at all as a Sue

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became one of the top members of
the class. It was one thing to

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let you in the room. It's
another thing when you're doing better than they

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are, only from one person that
I heard blatantly. I'm sure stuff went

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on behind my back that I don't
know about, but generally my experience in

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pilot training was we were a tight
knit class, and I viewed most of

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them as my friends. And honestly, the interaction I had where it was

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getting down to the end of pilot
training and it was between seven of us

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that were eligible for fighter aircraft at
that point, and I was one of

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them, and we knew, based
on previous classes and how many had been

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available for them, that it was
likely we would only have one to maybe

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three, so not all of us
were going to get them. Everyone else

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would go fly things like Casey went
thirty five's air fuelers C seventeens cargo aircraft.

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And there was one guy that was
clearly first in our class, and

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we knew he had that spot solidified, but it was between me and one

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other person between second and third,
and second and third we knew could make

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all the difference, and so we
had one more check ride to go out

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of I think we had four check
rides throughout the year program. And he

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said something to me like, I
don't even know why I'm putting in all

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this effort because they're going to pick
you for this just to check the diversity

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box. And it was I was
just like so taken aback that a someone

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would just say that to my face
and be that he actually believed that,

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and I was kind of just shocked. And I didn't I don't remember what

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I said back, but not much. I didn't stick up for myself.

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I was just like, okay.
But then I went and did my last

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check ride and I worked so hard
to be as ready as possible for that

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and I just crushed it. I
was like my best check ride of the

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whole program, and he did okay, but I did substantially better. And

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so that one little an interaction sticks
in my mind is like one of the

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most I guess bold statements that was
ever said to me by one of my

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peers. There's surely stuff I didn't
hear that went on, but to come

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to someone's face and just open with
that is pretty aggressive. But it also

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was a big motivator for me.
And after that check right, I knew

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I had secured the second spot and
we ended up only getting two fighter aircraft

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And what were you flying at that
point. So we're in T thirty eights

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at that point, so the jet
trainer aircraft, and then once you were

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done with flight training, what were
you flying? So you fill out a

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dreams sheet at the end of pilot
training that lists all the aircraft that are

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available in your preferences, and then
that's taken into account to some extent,

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but then it's really what they are
force needs and what's available. And so

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I went back and forth for a
few weeks trying to decide if I was

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going to put the F sixteen or
the A ten as my first choice.

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For various reasons, I put the
F sixteen, and we ended up getting

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one F fifteen e Strike Eagle,
which was the first guy in the classes

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first choice. And then we ended
up getting one F sixteen, which was

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my first choice, and so I
went on to fly F sixteens at that

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point and that's what I flew the
rest of my career. F sixteens and

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A tens are quite a bit different. That's interesting, those are your top

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two. So talk about that a
little bit and why you ultimately went with

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the F sixteen. Would you love
about it? Yeah? So, I

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think the thing that drew me to
the A ten was the mission, the

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close air support mission, and that
airframe is just so good at that,

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and that's all they really do.
So I was really drawn to the idea

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that you could be the person that
changes the tide of an engagement on the

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ground in the favor of our guys, and to like, you're sometimes the

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thing that determines if they win or
lose, or if they go home that

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day. So I think there's a
lot of pressure but a lot of privilege

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that comes with being able to occupy
that role. And I really liked the

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idea of being able to help at
that level. But I realized I talked

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to several people for advice who were
currently flying fighters, and they were like,

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hey, the F sixteen is multi
role, so you'll still get to

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do close air support, You'll also
get to fight air to air. You

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also get to fly two times the
skieta sound pull nine gs, fly upside

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down, all this stuff. And
I thought back to seeing those two F

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fifteens takeoff, and like, what
really drew me to that It was watching

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that after burner takeoff and just like
the power, the maneuverability, and the

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F sixteen has all of that and
so that was what really solidified it as

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my first choice. So you go
from kind of classmates and rivals and pilot

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training to once you're deployed, your
teammates now and I know that you served

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in Europe and Asia and the Middle
East. Talk about those deployments. Where

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were you and what kind of assignments
did you have. Yeah, so my

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first assignment, where I was stationed
for three years was Massawa, Japan.

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So I went overseas right away and
I was living there and while there,

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we didn't deploy, but we did
several what we call tdise so you know,

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short trips that aren't into combat zones. But I got to fly all

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over the place, trying to think
Malaysia. I went to Thailand, all

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over the country of Japan itself,
Guam, Alaska. It's just a lot

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of really cool locations and got to
see a lot of the world, a

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lot of part of the world that
I'd never been to. And then I

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went to Forth with Texas after that. While there, I got to deploy

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to Afghanistan, so did the combat
mission for several months there, got to

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do close air support. Turns out
that was our primary mission the whole time.

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We were there, and then I
was back for less than a year,

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and I went to Poland for an
entire summer, and that wasn't a

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combat zone obviously, but I was
there to instruct their pilots in their aircraft.

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So they also have F sixteens.
A lot of their young pilots are

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Western trained. They come over here, go through a year of training,

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and then go back. So there
was already a lot of understanding of how

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we operate on our end, and
they're one of our allies. So I

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got to go there, fly their
aircraft, brief their pilots, instruct their

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pilots, debrief them, and then
live in the local economy and that was

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a really cool opportunity. Let me
follow up on Afghanistan a little bit.

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You talk about close air support,
Take us through what that's like in an

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active war fighting situation, any particular
missions or moments that stand out, definitely.

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So it can vary greatly day to
day. A lot of the time

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has just spent waiting, waiting for
something to happen, and so you can

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have very boring four to six hour
flights where you're just up there, you're

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ready to go at a moment's notice. If something kicks off, but a

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lot of times nothing would, and
so it's extended periods of boredom intermixed with

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extreme moments of excitement or stress.
And so there was one specifically where I'd

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been there for a few months at
that point, and I had already dropped

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several bombs on different targets, but
we got called in for a danger close

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situation, which is where the friendlies
are close enough where if you drop specific

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weapons, they're actually at risk of
getting hit by shrapnel. So it's a

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high stakes environment. You're usually not
dropping that close unless they really need you

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to. And it was actually for
our allies, the Afghan National Army,

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and I was with my wingman,
who was a brand new lieutenant. He

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was first assignment, had just gotten
into country, hadn't employed any weapons yet.

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It was also his birthday, which
randomly sticks in my mind that day

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because we got called and I was
like, Okay, you know, when

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you're a fighter pilot, you're anxious
to do the mission, and so when

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you get called to with a tasker
to do something, most of us want

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to be the one that's actually doing
it. And I was like, look,

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well set up our roles so that
you'll be the one that employs this

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weapon. I will guide it in
with the laser off of my aircraft through

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my targeting pod. So we you
know, we're watching the situation. We're

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ready to go, We've talked through
our roles. We're just waiting for clearance

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from higher headquarters. Because this was
in twenty sixteen, so at that point

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in Afghanistan, we were pretty control. We couldn't drop on any structures because

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they didn't want any civilian casualties,
so it was very very controlled. Approval

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had to come from up the chain
of commander, down the chain command to

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us. So we're waiting, waiting
and my wingman needs to go get gas

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from the tanker. So the time
comes where he can't hang around anymore.

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He needs to go, so he
goes to get fuel and as soon as

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he leaves to go find the tanker
airborne, I get a call from our

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control or that's like, hey,
we got approval. And it was literally

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like not like oh you know,
you're gonna be in in two minutes,

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it was like call in with direction
and I was like, oh boy,

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okay, my wingman's gone. I
have the weapons on my aircraft as well.

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But this was a laser rocket,
and you can lay them in from

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your own aircraft, but it's very
difficult because the maneuver has you diving pretty

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substantially towards the ground for the delivery. Also, I forgot to mention this

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is in the middle of the night, so it's pitch black out there and

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we're on nvch's and so diving at
the ground in the middle of the night,

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well, not only launching the weapon
off your aircraft, but then being

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heads down staring at a targeting pod, it's just very dangerous. People have

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impacted the ground doing that, like
it's not the ideal way to do it.

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And so I was like, all
right, this is about to get

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sporty. And then out of nowhere, another voice comes on the radio and

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it was an Army UAV that was
like thousands of feet above me that had

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been monitoring the entire situation, and
they're like, we're ready to lay laser

249
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weapon in, like they were there
just waiting, ready to go, and

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so I think within thirty seconds I
rolled in, shot the rocket, they

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lased it in, it shocked the
target. It was a mission success,

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but I think it was it was
stressful for me because I hadn't done that

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type of delivery yet in combat,
which is much different than flying straight and

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pushing the button and lighting the bomb
come off the aircraft and then already being

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in a pretty stable environment to make
sure it goes where it needs to go.

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The diving attacks are just a lot
more hands on, They're a lot

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more stressful. Also the fact that
it was at night and my wingman was

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gone at the tanker. When I
had talked to guys in my squadron who

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had deployed a bunch, they were
like, the first time you have to

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do this new delivery, it's going
to be at night, there's gonna be

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weather, your wingman's going to be
at the tanker. And you're as like

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sure, sure or sure no,
But that is exactly what happened. So

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it was a successful But I think
it was a cool example of how we

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worked jointly with various branches, and
like how everyone was just on the same

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page, and how there was so
much trust between the different assets. Even

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if you never knew who that voice
belonged to, you never talked to them

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beforehand, and you never talked to
them again, we were able to work

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together to achieve the result and at
that point, I'm guessing the folks on

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the ground didn't care. Where there's
a male or female pilot up there who

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was on target with the enemy,
and as long as everybody else in your

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squadron knew you could do the job, I would hope that was their reaction

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as well. Was that your experience, Yeah, it was never even brought

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up. And honestly, the guys
that we were supporting were Afghan National Army

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guys, so I would be very
curious what their reaction would be, just

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the cultural differences to having a female
pilot's voice come on the radio, because

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I know a lot of the Americans
I've talked to, They're like, we

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always were entertained, or like we
enjoyed it. We're like, oh cool,

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it's a chick up their pad ass. They were like just generally supportive.

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I think anytime any pilot checked in
on the radio, they were just

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happy to have close air support,
regardless of what the voice sounded like.

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But I would be curious what the
reaction was on the Afghan side, with

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just you know, the culture being
so different around gender. Do you take

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fire from the enemy on that mission
or any other? I mean, the

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Taliban didn't have a large enough weapons
generally to really affect us. For sure,

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slower lower counterparts helicopters, apaches see
one thirties, those guys were more

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at risk than we were. We
would get shot out with small arms all

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the time, Like you could see
all the rounds and the tracers when you're

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under night vision goggles. But we
weren't at much risk because we were generally

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many thousand feet above the range that
they could reach. And if we were

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low doing something like a show of
force, we were coming in at five

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hundred knots and they just can't lead
you with AK forty seven to hit you

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with at that speed. But I
think the biggest concern there would be either

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getting into a situation where you were
getting low on fuel and like the airfield

294
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closes for rockets hitting in the runway
because it was at Bogroom and it was

295
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:49.680
getting shelled basically every day, or
a sandstorm rolls in or some other crazy

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weather so you're getting into a square
corner with fuel, or it would be

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some sort of mechanical malfunction like you
definitely think about when you're up there.

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A single seat aircraft with an injection
seat looking at all the rounds that are

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going back and forth below you,
and just knowing how the Taliban treats anyone

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that they capture. This is a
little bit of extra stress there, thinking

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about what you would do if you
had something we had to punch out of

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the aircraft. When we come back, will shift from the battlefields of Afghanistan

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00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:26.759
to the elite Air Force Thunderbirds.
Our guest is US Air Force Major Michelle

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00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:32.200
Mace Curran, and her new children's
book is Upside Down Dreams. I'm Greg

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00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:37.759
Corumbas, and this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg

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00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:42.559
Corumbus. Our guest in this edition
is US Air Force Major Michelle Curran,

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00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:49.160
Callsign Mace. She served thirteen years
on active duty in combat and as part

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00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:53.599
of the Air Force Thunderbirds. And
that's where we pick up the story as

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00:20:53.640 --> 00:21:00.960
Mace explains the unlikely way she encountered
the amazing opportunity to fly with the Thunderbirds.

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00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:03.920
Yeah, so I was towards the
end of my second full assignment.

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So I've been flying the F sixteen
about seven years at that point, and

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I already had a follow on to
go to New Mexico to become an instructor

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at the F sixteen Schoolhouse. Kind
of knew what I was doing, and

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for whatever reason, I saw an
email from the Air Force Personnel Center,

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00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:23.079
which sends out all these various emails
with job opportunities and unique assignments and stuff

316
00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:26.720
that pop up, and I generally
would not read them. I just kind

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of deleted them, which sorry AFPC. But for whatever reason, I opened

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00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:36.440
this one and I saw that it
was for the Thunderbirds, and not only

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00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:38.079
was it a hiring announcement, but
it was like the last one. It's

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00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:41.759
like, hey, we've already sent
this out probably like two or three times

321
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:45.200
at this point, deadlines next week. This is your last chance to your

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00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:47.799
application. And this is the first
time I looked at it, and I

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scrolled down just out of curiosity to
see what the requirements were, and I

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was like, I actually meet all
of these and this mission sounds really rewarding.

325
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.039
Exciting flying, but also a rewarding
mission because I had had an opportunity

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while I was in Japan a few
times to take a spare aircraft to some

327
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air shows in Asia, and one
of those was in Malaysia, and Malaysia

328
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I don't know if this is still
true. At the time, they didn't

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have any female fighter pilots and so
I wasn't even flying the demonstration. I

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just was bringing the extra aircraft with
but I was still in a flight suit.

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They still saw me as one of
the F sixteen pilots. And then

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I went up and walked along the
crowd line and the women there were just

333
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blown away that I was doing that
for a living, and I could they

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just had so many questions, they
wanted to take photos, they were so

335
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excited, and I could just see
that it was really positively influential to them,

336
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and I was like, this is
a really cool role to be in,

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to be able to just plant little
seeds of inspiration for people, and

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so that kind of planted the seed
for me, my own seed of inspiration

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00:22:52.880 --> 00:22:56.240
that when I saw that email,
I was like, I think it's important

340
00:22:56.319 --> 00:23:02.480
that people across America that are going
to these shows see representation on the team.

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And also the flying just looks fun
and it sounds like a really fun

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00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:07.759
assignment. So I was like,
I want to do this, and the

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application, of course, is due
in five days. I go to my

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boss and I'm like, so I
realized I literally never mentioned this before and

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this is due next Tuesday, But
what do you think about this? And

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that could have been the moment where
it went either way. He could have

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00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:25.920
easily been like, we should have
planned for this, like you're already kind

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of committed to go to this next
assignment. Also, this is very short

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timeline to get your application in,
like it's probably just not in the cards.

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You should apply next year. But
I had a really amazing commander who

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had really been a mentor for me
that whole assignment, and he was like,

352
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:41.880
I think you'd be great for this
job. What do we need to

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do to make this happen? And
it was just such a confidence booster because

354
00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:49.920
it is intimidating applying to the Thunderbirds. It's very competitive. The level of

355
00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:53.839
flying that we do on the team
is just not like what you do in

356
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:57.680
a Gray F sixteen. It's hard
at first. Everyone struggles with it initially,

357
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so he scrambled, got the application
together, send it in. I

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00:24:02.559 --> 00:24:06.480
got called for interviews, became a
finalist, went back for more interviews,

359
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and ended up getting hired for that
next season. Do you have to audition

360
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or I don't know what the word
for it is in the military, but

361
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do you have to perform in the
air as well to get hired? When

362
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I got hired, that was not
a requirement. They had removed the like

363
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:26.640
flying tryout from the team many many
years before. But while I was on

364
00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:30.119
the team, we did a lot
of we readed the demo and then we

365
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:33.880
also kind of looked at the hiring
process and how we could make it better.

366
00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.960
And our boss at the time,
who I had for all three years,

367
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was under the mentality that who you
hired to the team is like the

368
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.799
ultimate thing that determines the successor failure. And I tend to agree because I

369
00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:51.519
saw a good and not great candidates
come in and it could make a huge,

370
00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:55.119
huge difference even with the level of
training that they all went through.

371
00:24:55.680 --> 00:25:00.880
And so he decided to bring flying
tryouts back. And so the last two

372
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:03.759
years that I was on the team, when we hired people, they actually

373
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.000
did come out to Nellis to Las
Vegas and get in one of the two

374
00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:11.960
seat d Model F sixteens with one
of the current pilots in the backseat and

375
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.440
them in the front and go out
and fly some of the profile. They're

376
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:19.880
doing it at much higher altitudes than
we do in a show and much further

377
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apart from the other aircraft. But
it's just such different flying. It really

378
00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:29.319
gave us a chance to evaluate how
much they prepared for it, because we

379
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:30.799
would give them a lot of stuff
to look at beforehand, and you could

380
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:34.440
tell who spent a lot of time
getting ready and who didn't. And it

381
00:25:34.480 --> 00:25:38.200
also showed us how they handled pressure, and you know, when they started

382
00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:41.480
to make mistakes, which all of
them did because you're not going to nail

383
00:25:41.480 --> 00:25:45.480
it right out the gate, how
they continued to push forward throughout the flight,

384
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.640
or if they didn't and they let
it start to really affect their performance

385
00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:52.680
and kind of snowball. And so
it was just a really great way to

386
00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:57.440
gauge a few characteristics about the applicants. So it seems like they were looking

387
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:03.839
for personnel or character qualities as much
as they were flying talent. So what

388
00:26:03.960 --> 00:26:07.200
kind of things did they ask you
to see if you had the right demeanor

389
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:10.880
the right character to be part of
the team. Yeah, So I think

390
00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:14.799
I've talked about this quite a bit
on social media and stuff since I've left

391
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:18.599
that people are kind of surprised that
it's not always the best pilots that end

392
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:22.759
up getting hired as far as just
hands on stick rudder ability, because we

393
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.160
can teach you to fly the type
of flying that we do on the team,

394
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:32.559
but you can't really teach the other
thunder other part of the Thunderbird mission

395
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:33.880
where you have to be a public
figure, where you have to be an

396
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:38.440
ambassador for the Air Force. You're
constantly interaction, interacting with kids with adults,

397
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:44.079
You're representing the Air Force in a
positive light. And the schedule that

398
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:47.640
you run during air show season is
demanding. It's a grind. You're on

399
00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:49.880
the road two hundred and forty days
a year, You're in a different city

400
00:26:51.519 --> 00:26:53.720
every single weekend. You rarely see
your family, you rarely come home.

401
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:56.599
If you do, it's for like
one to two days a week, time

402
00:26:56.599 --> 00:27:02.519
to do laundry and then go again. And so some of what they're evaluating

403
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:06.000
is your willingness to go through that, like do you really realize what you're

404
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:11.480
getting yourself into. Some of it
is how you'll be to be around two

405
00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:14.519
hundred and forty days a year,
because we're with those people more than we're

406
00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:18.839
with our families, and you want
to make sure that people's personalities at least

407
00:27:18.960 --> 00:27:22.119
mention enough where it's not going to
affect the trust, the teamwork, the

408
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.799
dynamic of the team in a negative
way. And then you want to make

409
00:27:26.839 --> 00:27:32.119
sure they're there for the right reasons. And the Thunderbirds can be like this

410
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:37.359
shiny penny that some people will seek
out just for I guess, personal attention,

411
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:42.759
and that comes through pretty clearly versus
the people that want to inspire other

412
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:48.599
people and really are inspired themselves by
that mission. And so we try to

413
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:55.319
hire people that are there for the
right reasons, because the selfish reasons definitely

414
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:57.279
start to show up pretty quickly once
you're on the team, and it can

415
00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:00.400
be a huge frustration to those around
you. How'd you find out you made

416
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.440
the team and what was your reaction? So I was still in Texas and

417
00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.240
I was actually the supervisor of flying
that day, and one of the first

418
00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.000
things that we did in the morning
was take out a truck with a little

419
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:15.119
light on the top and drive it
up and down the runway when no one

420
00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:18.839
was obviously landing or taking off,
just to check the runway to make sure

421
00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:22.039
there was no debris on it FOD, which is stuff that can get pulled

422
00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:26.759
up into the engine damaged the jets
just to like get eyes on make sure

423
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:29.720
everything was good. So I just
done that, done my laps down the

424
00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:33.000
runway, and I was just pulling
off the edge of the ramp and on

425
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:37.440
my cell phone ring and it was
the executive officer from the current Thunderbirds,

426
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:40.640
and I was like, Oh,
this is the news I've been waiting on

427
00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:44.839
for like months at that point.
So I pulled the truck over and answered,

428
00:28:45.480 --> 00:28:48.160
and it was on speaker, and
as soon as I said hello,

429
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:52.799
it was just twelve people yelling congratulations, all at the same time. So

430
00:28:52.920 --> 00:28:56.119
I knew right away I had made
the team. But then the big question

431
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.920
was which position did I get hired
for, because there were reopen they're very

432
00:29:00.920 --> 00:29:06.559
different. One is the wingman who's
like basically always flying off the underbird one's

433
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.759
wing as part of the Diamond.
There was a solo which would be number

434
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:12.880
six that does like the head on
passes, the single jet maneuvers, like

435
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:15.519
the max turn, all the max
climbs, all of that kind of stuff.

436
00:29:15.759 --> 00:29:18.960
And then there was number eight,
who gets to fly then scent of

437
00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:22.720
flyers, like when we would fly
athletes, media celebrities in the back seat.

438
00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.119
He gets to do that, and
then he also flies the spare jet

439
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:30.839
ahead of time to get ready for
the rest of the team's arrival. So

440
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:36.359
they are very different positions, and
they did ask our preferences, but much

441
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:40.200
like your dreamsheet and pilot training,
you only have so much say in which

442
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:44.599
position you get hired into. They
also look at personalities and how people are

443
00:29:44.640 --> 00:29:48.720
going to move around the team.
They're two years there and they kind of

444
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:52.960
pick based on that, and your
preference plays a very small role. But

445
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:55.599
I had told them I wanted to
be a solo pilot. That was my

446
00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:59.359
first choice, and that's what I
ended up getting hired for. So it

447
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:02.400
was like initial celebration. Then I
was like, oh, wait, what

448
00:30:02.519 --> 00:30:04.440
position am I getting? And then
it was another celebration when I found out

449
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:07.480
it was my first choice. You
mentioned a little bit earlier that it's kind

450
00:30:07.519 --> 00:30:11.720
of a bumpy transition because the flying
is so different from being a combat pilot

451
00:30:11.799 --> 00:30:17.240
versus a thunderbird pilot. So talk
about what you had to adjust to and

452
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:21.519
how long it takes to get in
sync with this crew. Given the complicated

453
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:23.839
maneuvers you're running, it's a battle. It was way harder than I had

454
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:29.000
thought. I think a lot of
us in the gray squadrons poke fun at

455
00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:32.640
the thunderbirds. It's like a it's
like a When you talk to one person

456
00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:36.079
face to face, they're like,
that's super cool flying, Like, what's

457
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:37.440
it like? But when you get
everyone in a group, they're like,

458
00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:42.519
oh, loops to music, thunder
chickens whatever. It's just like the culture,

459
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:48.480
and so I think people underestimate how
difficult it actually is. Like every

460
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.759
maneuver, we're targeting altitudes way lower
than we would ever fly in any other

461
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:59.359
squadron, way closer together. You're
running the jet at its extreme operating limits

462
00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:03.920
on a regular asis, and stuff
that looks as simple as just flying inverted

463
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:07.359
and holding level flight, you just
never do that. There's like no situation

464
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:11.279
in a gray of sixteen where you
want to roll upside down and then push

465
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:15.759
on the stick and hang in your
harness. It's very uncomfortable. All the

466
00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:18.240
blood rushes to your head, anything
loose in the airplane falls into the canopy.

467
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:22.559
Like, there's no tactical reason to
ever do that. And so even

468
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:29.519
just doing that people myself included,
first time you start you roll upside down,

469
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.640
you overcompensate with the push and so
you end up climbing dramatically and pulling

470
00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:37.160
all these negative g's, which sends
all the blood to your head is very

471
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:45.599
uncomfortable. Flying formation straight and level
you get pretty good at pretty quickly.

472
00:31:45.039 --> 00:31:48.160
But now we're like, okay,
now we're going to do a loop and

473
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:51.920
we're going to do a roll.
And then as a solo, you go

474
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:55.480
from flying off the source Thunderbird one, and now you put another airplane in

475
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:57.680
between there, and now you're at
the end of the whip. So the

476
00:31:57.720 --> 00:32:00.759
wing when you're flying off of his
making all these adjustments to stay in formation

477
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:05.519
off of number one, and then
you're making adjustments to their adjustments, and

478
00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.279
so you're kind of at the whim
of how they fly, how smooth they

479
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:12.880
fly, how quickly they make their
changes, and that could make your job

480
00:32:12.960 --> 00:32:16.640
very challenging. So I started flying
with the team in first week of November,

481
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:21.839
I think, and in February we
did the flyover for the Super Bowl.

482
00:32:21.960 --> 00:32:27.440
That was my first event no pressure, yeah, which is just a

483
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:30.240
straight level flyover, but there's just
a little bit of pressure to have it

484
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:35.400
beyond time with the national anthem,
So that's fairly stressful. And then we

485
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.519
did a couple more high profile flyovers
the Daytona five hundred, the Captain Marvel

486
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:43.480
Red Carpet Premiere, both of those, and then we got into our first

487
00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:46.440
air show in March, and I
mean, I just remember being very nervous,

488
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:52.960
very stressed out, making tons of
little deviations, mistakes where the maneuvers

489
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.039
weren't up to the standard that I
wanted. And that is totally normal.

490
00:32:57.319 --> 00:33:01.160
Like everyone that's news starts off show
season proficient enough that the crowd is still

491
00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:05.279
like, Wow, that was awesome. But when we watch our tapes in

492
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:07.480
debrief, we're just like, oh, we have a long way to go.

493
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:09.279
And I would say, you don't
get to that point where you're like,

494
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:15.000
wow, that was a really good
show until probably like August or September.

495
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:17.720
Wow. So a lot of fine
tuning as the show goes on.

496
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:22.200
Do you generally perform the same show
or there are a couple of different versions

497
00:33:22.279 --> 00:33:27.160
or is it different for each audience? So it's generally the same, except

498
00:33:27.279 --> 00:33:31.319
for there's lower shows if weather's a
factor. So on a clear day,

499
00:33:31.359 --> 00:33:35.000
if you got to go to an
air show this year and there's no clouds,

500
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.279
the team's going to fly a high
show, which is what we house

501
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:40.400
default too. It's the most impressive
over the top maneuvers. They really aggressive

502
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:44.960
climbs, all of that. That's
what people expect to see when they come

503
00:33:45.000 --> 00:33:46.680
to the show. But sometimes there's
clouds that are in the way and we

504
00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:52.079
can't go into the weather information.
It's very disorienting and you also need to

505
00:33:52.079 --> 00:33:54.720
be able to see each other,
so we will push it down to a

506
00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:59.759
low show. And then our third
contingency is a flat show, which only

507
00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:04.400
needs about two thousand feet of airspace
between the ground and the clouds. And

508
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.599
now a lot of the maneuvers that
would normally be going upside down, doing

509
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:12.440
loops whatever, are just like flat
passes. You still get plenty of afterburner,

510
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.320
plenty of loud jet noise, so
people still find it very impressive.

511
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:20.400
But I think the team in general
would just love to fly at high show

512
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:23.639
every single day. But sometimes contingencies
is where you end up living. When

513
00:34:23.679 --> 00:34:28.159
we come back, Major Curran shares
much more about her time in the Air

514
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:31.880
Force Thunderbirds, and she talks about
her brand new children's book, Upside Down

515
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:37.239
Dreams and how she hopes it inspires
kids to pursue their dreams. I'm Greg

516
00:34:37.280 --> 00:34:45.519
Corumbas and this is Veterans Chronicles.
This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas.

517
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:50.519
Our guest in this edition is US
Air Force Major Michelle Curran. After

518
00:34:50.599 --> 00:34:54.119
thirteen years on active duty, serving
in both combat and in the Elite Air

519
00:34:54.119 --> 00:35:00.000
Force Thunderbirds, she now serves in
the Air Force Reserves. Curran has also

520
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:04.320
so the author of the new children's
book Upside Down Dreams, and we'll talk

521
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:08.280
about that shortly, but first major
Current tells us how she became the lead

522
00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:14.400
solo pilot for the Thunderbirds. So
as a solo, your AO is hired

523
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:19.480
as the posing solo number six,
and then you kind of graduate to become

524
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:22.639
the lead solo. So the lead
solo is a second year person because you're

525
00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:27.639
making a lot of the calls for
timing. You're the stable platform for the

526
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:31.159
other jet to set the formations off
of. For like the head on passes,

527
00:35:31.320 --> 00:35:37.320
you're orchestrating those. And then for
anything where one jet is inverted and

528
00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:40.320
the other one's upright, you're a
is the upside down jet, which is

529
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:45.519
just a little bit more challenging and
takes some more practice. So I knew

530
00:35:45.519 --> 00:35:49.800
I would eventually become the lead solo
even during my first year, while I

531
00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:52.280
was the posing solo number six,
since that's how it normally happens. But

532
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:57.159
then I ended up getting a bonus
here because of the pandemic and spent two

533
00:35:57.199 --> 00:36:00.199
years as the lead solo before I
left the team after three years total.

534
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:04.800
Speaking of the pandemic, there was
a unique incident that I had the chance

535
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:07.599
to watch near Washington, DC,
and that's where the Thunderbirds and the Blue

536
00:36:07.599 --> 00:36:10.280
Angels flew together, which I don't
know if that was unprecedented, but it

537
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:15.000
is certainly rare. Talk a little
bit about that. Yeah, we're pretty

538
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.360
sure that it was unprecedented. The
teams have had what I would call a

539
00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:22.199
friendly rivalry, but more on the
rivalry side and less on the friendly side

540
00:36:22.199 --> 00:36:25.280
for quite some time. But while
I was on the team, the boss

541
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:28.840
at the time, one of his
things was like, this is dumb.

542
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:31.039
We're the only two jet teams in
America. We should be learning from each

543
00:36:31.079 --> 00:36:36.440
other, like we should be sharing
best practices, and you know, when

544
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:38.320
I have an issue, I should
be able to call the Blue Angels boss

545
00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:43.119
and bounce ideas off of him and
vice versa. And so he reached out

546
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:46.440
and kind of created a friendship there
and the team started actually training together for

547
00:36:46.480 --> 00:36:52.880
a week each winter, and then
that started right before the pandemic. And

548
00:36:52.920 --> 00:36:57.480
then when the pandemic happened, we're
like, okay, we've already done some

549
00:36:57.639 --> 00:37:00.280
integration with each other. We'd written
in backseat to kind of get like an

550
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:04.559
insight into their demo, we'd said
in a brief debrief. So there was

551
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:09.280
a lot of like ideas and information
being exchanged, and it became pretty clear

552
00:37:10.039 --> 00:37:15.079
very quickly that most air shows were
going to cancel for the year, and

553
00:37:15.119 --> 00:37:17.760
we still needed to fly to stay
proficient. The money was already allocated to

554
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:22.719
the squadron's budgets, like we had
to keep flying, and so how could

555
00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:25.679
we still be impactful to the American
people even though there's no air shows?

556
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.360
And that's where the whole America Strong
mission was born. And I'm not sure

557
00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.519
at what point the Blue Angels got
pulled into it, but I know it

558
00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:37.800
was. It was being talked out
like Air Force headquarters and Navy headquarters level,

559
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:39.880
so it was well above us before
it got decided, but we ended

560
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:45.440
up I think it was in April
we went to Pensacola. The whole squadron

561
00:37:45.480 --> 00:37:49.239
picked up and went there. And
we flew for a couple of weeks with

562
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:54.599
them to get our we call them
dueling deltas, the two delta formations get

563
00:37:54.599 --> 00:37:58.199
everything syncd up on the air speeds
we would fly with. The radio calls

564
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:00.440
would be who would lead, what
much smoke each team had, when it

565
00:38:00.440 --> 00:38:04.280
would be on how big our turns
needed to be. Like, there's a

566
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:08.760
lot that goes into putting two six
jet formations close together. And then we

567
00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:14.519
started doing our city flyovers and we
ended up doing two in DC. One

568
00:38:14.599 --> 00:38:17.039
was the fourth of July over the
White House, but then earlier in the

569
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:22.440
spring during America Strong, we did
a seven and a half hour flight that

570
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:25.880
launched and recovered out of Pensacola,
Florida, with both teams plus a spare

571
00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:32.320
jet a Chase jet for each.
So we had fourteen fighter aircraft all together.

572
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:37.119
I can't even remember how many different
air refueling aircraft we had, how

573
00:38:37.159 --> 00:38:40.920
many different tankers. They were stationed
in various points along the coast. And

574
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:45.599
then they're F eighteen, so their
refueling system is different than ours, so

575
00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:50.000
we had to have two different types. It was quite the lift to make

576
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:54.920
that happen, but we flew from
Pensacola to Atlanta. We were like Baltimore,

577
00:38:55.119 --> 00:39:00.440
DC, New York City, Philly, Boston, and each of those

578
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:05.280
major cities. We were dropped down
low as low as we could go based

579
00:39:05.280 --> 00:39:07.360
on the obstacles and all the rules
and stuff. So it's generally five hundred

580
00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:15.400
two thousand feet above the ground in
close formation smoke on showing America that hey,

581
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:17.920
like, we realize you're quarantine right
now. Life sucks and everyone's morale

582
00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:21.599
is low, but we're all in
this together, and I think it was

583
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:25.320
a cool beacon of hope for people
and like a really dark time, And

584
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:30.480
it was actually the most challenging flying
I did the entire time I was on

585
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:34.440
the team, and I think most
of us agreed because it was just very

586
00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.719
We had to completely invent this from
scratch, like no one had done this

587
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:42.480
before. There was an insane amount
of coordination involved with air traffic control and

588
00:39:42.519 --> 00:39:45.519
all the different airports we flew over, and we weren't used to flying close

589
00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:51.440
formation for that long of a time, so you're like neck would start to

590
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:54.039
cramp up because you're also looking in
the same direction. The F sixteen has

591
00:39:54.039 --> 00:39:58.880
a sidestick, so you can only
use your right arm and making those really

592
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:02.639
tiny fine motor adjustments with the weight
and the stick on your arm. Everyone

593
00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:07.719
was getting like tendinitis in their elbows. Your arm would go numb. You'd

594
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:09.920
be like looking at your arm as
it's like fully asleep and you're flying three

595
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:13.840
feet from another aircraft. You're just
like, are you still there? Is

596
00:40:14.119 --> 00:40:17.559
my arm still there? So yeah, it was just challenging to maintain that

597
00:40:17.679 --> 00:40:22.719
level of focus for that long and
then you're just exhausted after a seven and

598
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.079
a half hour flight operating at that
level. So it was worth it.

599
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:29.760
The feedback was amazing, but it
was not easy flying. We're talking with

600
00:40:29.800 --> 00:40:34.400
Michelle Curran, US Air Force veterans, still a reservist, served thirteen years

601
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:37.960
active duty, served as the lead
solo pilot for the prestigious Air Force Thunderbirds.

602
00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:40.840
Her new books Upside Down Dreams,
which we'll get to and in just

603
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:46.559
a second, a couple more questions
about the Thunderbirds mace. You've got obviously

604
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:51.760
tight formations when you're doing your normal
show, so a lot of things could

605
00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:55.199
be considered a close call. Any
moments in your years where you thought,

606
00:40:55.280 --> 00:41:00.360
oh, this could really be bad. Plenty of times like you would get

607
00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:05.320
so used to like hitting turbulence,
the jet you're flying off of, making

608
00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:07.159
a move away from the jet they're
flying off of because they made a move,

609
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:12.320
and you've just got very good at
you would have, honestly, like

610
00:41:12.440 --> 00:41:15.239
that initial physiological reaction where you kind
of like cringe, but you got very

611
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:19.639
good at just like a tiny rudder
tap to slide out so you wouldn't hit

612
00:41:19.679 --> 00:41:22.320
them. But you're not like ejecting
yourself from the formation where it's very obvious

613
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.159
to the audience. So that kind
of stuff would happen all the time.

614
00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:31.480
But I mean there were a couple
with just bad weather, low weather raining,

615
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:35.719
like trying to get all the six
jets into airfields when we would go

616
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:38.119
across country. That honestly is more
stressful than flying an air show. And

617
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:42.480
then I hit a bird when I
was in Colombia, a vulture. So

618
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:45.280
that thing had like a five to
six foot wingspan. It was very large.

619
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:49.440
I saw it right before I hit
it. It was also recorded on

620
00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.159
the GoPro I had running in my
aircraft, so we went back and saw

621
00:41:52.679 --> 00:41:57.039
its wingspan right before impact. But
I solidly hit that thing, and I

622
00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:01.320
had the initial reaction of did that
go down my intake into the only engine

623
00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:06.039
that I have. I'm like over
the forest of Columbia. I wrote a

624
00:42:06.039 --> 00:42:07.360
story about it, and someone's like, that's not the jungle. I was

625
00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:09.360
like, well, to me,
it looks like a jungle. I'm in,

626
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:15.880
like Central America. This feels very
junglely to me. But I did

627
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:19.320
not want to eject there obviously,
or anywhere else for that matter. So

628
00:42:19.360 --> 00:42:22.199
you have the initial reaction of I
definitely hit that bird that was a very

629
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:24.920
large bird, and then you're staring
at your engine instruments, just waiting to

630
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:30.719
see like your RPM start to fluctuate, or your engine temperature gauge start to

631
00:42:30.760 --> 00:42:35.079
spike or something. Luckily, it
didn't, and I was able to land

632
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:39.559
after just a few minutes and taxi
clear. But I guess I had the

633
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:43.679
higher stress reaction when we actually shut
the jet down and I got out.

634
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:45.920
Before I got out, my crew
chief came up the ladder and he's normally

635
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:50.679
very calm, like very even killed
guy, and he was like wide and

636
00:42:50.719 --> 00:42:52.039
he's like, mam, you have
two huge holes in the side of your

637
00:42:52.119 --> 00:42:55.679
jet. And I was like,
what it's like you have two holes like

638
00:42:55.719 --> 00:43:00.119
bigger than my fist through the side
of your jet. And I got down

639
00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:04.719
and looked, and I've seen plenty
of bird strikes with smaller birds where it's

640
00:43:04.760 --> 00:43:07.480
like a little you might have like
a little dent or like a little smear,

641
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:09.440
and you're like, okay, well
for sure some feathers. You're like,

642
00:43:09.599 --> 00:43:14.639
we hit a bird. This It
was legit, like fist size holes

643
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:20.719
through the outside skin of the metal
that goes around the intake that sucks into

644
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:25.159
the engine. And so we figured
out that the bird was like spread eagle,

645
00:43:25.199 --> 00:43:29.559
I guess is the perfect phrase for
the story. Right before I hit

646
00:43:29.599 --> 00:43:34.000
it, and I had clipped its
left wing with the left side of my

647
00:43:34.159 --> 00:43:37.119
intake, and its wing actually went
down the intake because they did, they

648
00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:39.400
put a camera in there, and
there were all kinds of feathers inside the

649
00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:44.760
engine, so they had to completely
swap that engine for a new one while

650
00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.239
we're on the road in a foreign
country. And then the body kind of

651
00:43:47.280 --> 00:43:52.119
cart wheeled down the side of the
outside of the intake and put these huge

652
00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:54.440
holes through the aircraft. It actually
punched out the metal, and I have

653
00:43:54.639 --> 00:44:00.239
the pieces of metal. They're like
all mangled and curled up and then is

654
00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:04.199
not thin metal, Like you could
take up players and try to uncurl those

655
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:07.159
pieces and there You're not gonna be
able to do it. It's like super

656
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:10.599
strong. So the fact that what
six or seven pound bird can do that

657
00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:16.119
much damage was a good reminder of
like how serious it could be. And

658
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:21.159
I have no doubt that if that
whole thing would have gone into the engine,

659
00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:23.480
that I would have been engine out. So I'm glad that it wasn't,

660
00:44:23.880 --> 00:44:28.840
you know, three inches further to
the left. But that was still

661
00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:30.960
one that sticks with me because I
had never seen a bird strike do that

662
00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:36.159
much damage to a fighter aircraft before, and I really realized how serious it

663
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:39.039
could have been. Read the first
female lead solo pilot, so I was

664
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:43.079
the second. Combo Weeks was the
first one, and she was back in

665
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:45.840
I think she got hired in two
thousand and six. So the first female

666
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.920
pilot for the Thunderbirds ever was in
two thousand and five Fie female Kowski,

667
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:53.320
and then the next year Combo got
hired to be a solo, so there

668
00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:57.320
were actually two for a little while, but there haven't. I was only

669
00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:59.960
the fourth one to fly in the
demo ever, and the team's been around

670
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.280
seventy years at this point, so
there have not been a lot of us.

671
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:07.280
Well, as we said, at
thirteen years active duty, you went

672
00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:10.960
to reserves. In twenty twenty two, you also became a children's book author.

673
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:17.000
The book is Upside Down Dreams,
and tell us how you came up

674
00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.239
with the general idea for the book
and then the story that goes in the

675
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:23.840
book. Yeah, so it was
quite the journey to get to a physical

676
00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:28.719
book being published. In twenty nineteen, my first year with the Thunderbirds,

677
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.519
we did an event at the Smithsonian
Air and Space Museum, and so I

678
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:36.480
was there in my show suit.
We got a tour, we did some

679
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:37.760
meeting greats, and then we had
some time to walk around and I went

680
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:42.280
into the bookstore at the main museum
right in DC, and I was looking

681
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:45.480
at all the really cool aviation stuff
they have there. It's a really cool

682
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:47.559
place if you haven't been. But
I went over to the books and they

683
00:45:47.559 --> 00:45:52.760
had a lot of children's books on
aviation and space, but there weren't many,

684
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:59.320
or if any, that had like
a female pilot character, and there

685
00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:01.320
also weren't my that were focused on
fighter pilots. And I was like,

686
00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:05.920
I think it would be really cool
to write a children's book about a little

687
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:07.679
girl that wants to be a fighter
pilot or is somehow in that world.

688
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:12.239
And so that was the where the
idea started. And I think I actually

689
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:15.199
told someone on that trip, like, I want to write a book some

690
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:19.000
day and get it in this museum
and this gift shop because I think it's

691
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:22.960
important and this whole people come here
to inspire their kids, you know what,

692
00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:27.480
I mean, to show them all
of these inspiring areas in space and

693
00:46:27.559 --> 00:46:30.679
an aviation and all these things that
they can go accomplish, and I felt

694
00:46:30.679 --> 00:46:34.800
like it was lacking a little bit
in that specific part. So I got

695
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.800
the idea. Turns out, like
I said, we were gone a lot.

696
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:39.719
The show season is crazy, and
I was on my first year,

697
00:46:39.840 --> 00:46:44.599
so I was just trying to hang
on and learn and become proficient. So

698
00:46:44.639 --> 00:46:46.760
there was a zero chance of me
starting it at that point. But then

699
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:52.480
the pandemic happened, and there was
a period before we started the city flyovers

700
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:54.480
where we were working remotely while everyone
was trying to figure out what the heck

701
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:58.599
was happening and what was going on
with the air shows, and the period

702
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:01.719
that everyone remembers and like Arch of
twenty twenty and so I was at home

703
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:05.199
a lot, and I was getting
kind of bored, and I was like,

704
00:47:05.280 --> 00:47:07.920
I'm going to write this children's book. So I started to write the

705
00:47:07.960 --> 00:47:14.400
manuscript, and I was thinking about
like how I wanted this story to unfold,

706
00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:17.360
and it actually happened very quickly.
I wrote the manuscript over just maybe

707
00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:21.480
two days, and then send it
back and forth with a few people to

708
00:47:21.639 --> 00:47:25.360
edit it, pare it down,
make it more like children language friendly.

709
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.440
Not that I had like profanity in
there, but just things that would go

710
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:32.000
well with illustrations in the future and
that kind of thing. But I really

711
00:47:32.039 --> 00:47:37.480
wanted to be about this little girl
that was chasing her dream, not written

712
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:42.280
from my perspective as a thunderbird pilot. So it's about this girl in the

713
00:47:42.280 --> 00:47:45.559
book. She's eight years old,
Lily Padilly is her name, and she

714
00:47:45.159 --> 00:47:49.119
goes to school, I guess here
in Las Vegas because every day these jets

715
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:52.079
fly over her school and she keeps
getting in trouble and class because she's caught

716
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:57.239
not paying attention staring out the window
at the aircraft. And she ends up

717
00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.760
going home and her mom scolds her
because the teacher called, like she's not

718
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:04.800
paying attention in school. Her grandpa, who she has a really close relationship

719
00:48:04.880 --> 00:48:07.679
with, is over at their house
that night, and here's this conversation and

720
00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:12.119
realizes when she says, like,
well, it's because I'm watching these airplanes

721
00:48:12.119 --> 00:48:15.599
and I just can't stop looking at
him and all she's really excited about it.

722
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:19.840
He shares with her at that point
that he was actually a fighter pilot

723
00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:22.000
way back in the day before she
was born, so she never knew that,

724
00:48:22.360 --> 00:48:25.719
and she's just so fascinated by it, and so he shares some parts

725
00:48:25.719 --> 00:48:29.880
about what it was like, and
she's like, I'm going to go do

726
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:31.039
that someday. And he's like,
well, you have to pay attention in

727
00:48:31.079 --> 00:48:35.119
school, like you gotta work hard. You're gonna have to do well in

728
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:37.360
math and science. And she's like, all on board, I'm going to

729
00:48:37.440 --> 00:48:40.840
do this. But as she starts
to do that in school and be the

730
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:45.800
kid that's as raising their hand and
answering the questions, she starts to get

731
00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:50.320
a little pushback from her peers about
being a no at all, and she

732
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:53.440
explains why she's doing it, and
when she does that, she gets skepticism

733
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:58.599
around this dream of becoming a fighter
pilot. Primarily because she's a little girl,

734
00:48:59.280 --> 00:49:01.800
and so she's just heartbroken, Like
she suddenly realizes that every pilot she

735
00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:07.039
knows is male, and she's like, can I actually do this? And

736
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:12.000
so her grandpa has a solution,
and that is to take her to somewhere

737
00:49:12.039 --> 00:49:15.199
where she can actually see someone that
looks like her doing her dream. And

738
00:49:15.239 --> 00:49:19.320
so they end up going to an
air show on the weekend watch the thunderbirds

739
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.119
fly. So you have all of
these amazing illustrations of her grandpa, you

740
00:49:22.159 --> 00:49:24.239
know, explaining how the jets go
up, up, up, and they

741
00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:29.159
go this way and that way,
and then in the end the pilot's land,

742
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:30.679
they shut down, the aircraft,
take off their helmets, and the

743
00:49:30.760 --> 00:49:37.039
number five pilot her braid swings out
from her helmet, and Lily on the

744
00:49:37.079 --> 00:49:39.840
sideline sees that and it's just like
in awe. And so they end up

745
00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:44.360
getting to meet the pilot gives her
this little American flag from her pocket,

746
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:50.920
and we actually flew every single air
show with these small American flags mounted inside

747
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:53.119
our jets, and then we would
grab them and take them to the autograph

748
00:49:53.199 --> 00:49:58.719
line afterwards. And you kind of
keep your eye out for one specific kid

749
00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:01.480
that you could tell it would be
really impactful for them to get just this

750
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:06.760
small little memento from you, And
it was so fun to give that away

751
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:09.719
every single air show. And so
Lily ends up getting this little American flag

752
00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:15.239
from the number five pilot and it
just empowers her. She's like, I

753
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:20.199
can do this, and so she
leaves the air show completely invested in believing

754
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:22.800
in herself to actually go achieve her
dream. And she goes back to school,

755
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.880
of course, and shows the kids
in her class the little American flag

756
00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:32.320
she was given. But it's I
think a very relatable journey that actually plays

757
00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:36.280
out for a lot of kids.
I cannot tell you how many girls have

758
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:39.800
come up and asked me about being
a woman in that role, or come

759
00:50:39.880 --> 00:50:44.599
up to me with doubt about their
ability to do something like that, specifically

760
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:46.639
because they were female. And I
wish it still wasn't a thing, but

761
00:50:46.679 --> 00:50:50.519
it still is very much a thing
for a lot of them. And so

762
00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:54.519
the goal with the book is just
to inspire those kids and show them that

763
00:50:54.559 --> 00:50:58.440
it is possible, even if they
never find themselves at an air show in

764
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:02.920
the actual audience. There was a
way to keep spreading that message, you

765
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:06.920
know, beyond the in person interactions
that I could have while I was on

766
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.079
the team. You mentioned your interaction
with the young girls at the air show

767
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:13.039
and you always pick out one to
give the flag too. What do you

768
00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:15.800
look for? Is it a look? Is that how excited they are?

769
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:19.320
What is the clincher moment where you
decide it's going to be that kid.

770
00:51:19.480 --> 00:51:22.559
Yeah, I'm sure it was different
for each pilot, but for me personally,

771
00:51:22.719 --> 00:51:25.760
it honestly, it wouldn't be the
most excited, most outgoing little kid.

772
00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:30.079
It would be the one that was
a little bit more shy, a

773
00:51:30.119 --> 00:51:34.320
little bit more reserved, that was
looking at me with like kind of awe

774
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.480
but also like they needed a confidence
boost. Like you could see it because

775
00:51:37.519 --> 00:51:40.599
I was that kid. I was
not the one that would see like a

776
00:51:40.679 --> 00:51:44.119
role model and run up and be
like, oh my gosh, that was

777
00:51:44.119 --> 00:51:45.199
so cool, I'm so excited to
me you can I take a picture with

778
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:47.599
you? Like I wouldn't have never
done that as a kid. I would

779
00:51:47.599 --> 00:51:51.360
have been the one that was too
scared to do that, that was too

780
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:53.920
shy. And so for me personally, I saw myself and some of those

781
00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:59.039
more reserved kids when they would just
be looking at me kind of a little

782
00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:00.039
bit shy, a little bit,
and then I would be like, hey,

783
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:02.320
I have something for you, and
I would give it to them.

784
00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:06.760
Their faces would just light up,
and they all of a sudden would open

785
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:08.880
up. A lot of them would
just start talking and talking about how excited

786
00:52:08.920 --> 00:52:13.199
they were and how cool the show
was and what they want to do.

787
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:15.840
And I think it was just really
neat to be able to do that for

788
00:52:15.880 --> 00:52:20.599
those specific kids in that environment.
And I think it's worth saying. I

789
00:52:20.599 --> 00:52:23.719
think it's probably implied in the story, but it's not just for fighter pilots.

790
00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:27.960
This book gets for anybody who's got
a dream of whatever they want to

791
00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:30.920
do that it can be achieved,
absolutely, And I you know, I

792
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:35.199
think when I wrote the book,
I imagined it being read by and read

793
00:52:35.239 --> 00:52:38.559
too kids that were like, you
know, three to seven years old roughly,

794
00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:42.559
you know, being read by their
parents to them, and then new

795
00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:45.960
readers going through it, both boys
and girls. The feedback I've gotten has

796
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:50.679
been so incredible. I've had so
many adults by it and be like,

797
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:52.159
I bought your book. I don't
have any kids, but it's just for

798
00:52:52.239 --> 00:52:57.800
myself, and a lot of them
have actually sent me these really heartfelt messages

799
00:52:57.800 --> 00:53:01.360
and been like, I actually teared
up reading your book because I've felt what

800
00:53:01.519 --> 00:53:07.519
Lily feels in that moment where she
suddenly realizes that other people don't believe she

801
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:12.039
can achieve her dream, and it's
like just a very relatable story, I

802
00:53:12.039 --> 00:53:14.880
think to all ages, because we've
all been there. Actual question for you,

803
00:53:15.079 --> 00:53:20.360
Michelle, you know you've been a
rarity, a female combat pilot,

804
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:23.880
and in a very rare role as
a lead solo pilot for the Thunderbirds.

805
00:53:24.519 --> 00:53:30.239
What do you think those trailblazing roles
have meant in general and the bigger picture.

806
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:36.840
Yeah, I think it cannot really
be overstated how powerful it is for

807
00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:42.559
people to see someone that they have
can personally connect to doing something that they

808
00:53:42.559 --> 00:53:46.159
want to do. I think it's
hard for us to create dreams for ourselves

809
00:53:46.239 --> 00:53:51.880
when no one that we can even
remotely relate to is in those roles.

810
00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:55.559
I mean, there's obviously been women
that have done that the first, but

811
00:53:55.639 --> 00:54:00.719
those are unique people and that took
a lot of courage on their are to

812
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:05.400
be the first. And I don't
think that we all necessarily are in a

813
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:08.559
position where we're willing to forge a
trail at that level. But every time

814
00:54:09.360 --> 00:54:14.599
someone else follows down that path,
it becomes a little bit more established and

815
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:19.840
it's a little bit easier to walk
down. And so sometimes there's controversy around

816
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:23.840
the attention that women and minorities get
in kind of these public roles like the

817
00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:29.159
all female Super Bowl flyover, or
when I was flying for the Thunderbirds,

818
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:30.639
people be like, we don't care, like, we don't care about your

819
00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:34.519
gender. We just care that you
can do the job. And I was

820
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:37.599
just sure those people, like,
none of us would be in the positions

821
00:54:37.639 --> 00:54:39.840
we were in if we couldn't do
the job. That's like, that is

822
00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:46.239
not something that changes depending on your
gender. But when you're doing the job,

823
00:54:47.000 --> 00:54:52.000
you have this extra ability to inspire
a lot of people to recruit other

824
00:54:52.039 --> 00:54:54.119
pools of talent, which is really
important in the military, especially right now.

825
00:54:54.719 --> 00:55:00.880
And why would you not lean into
that. And the people that push

826
00:55:00.920 --> 00:55:04.119
back, it's they're not your audience, right. Your audience is the people

827
00:55:04.119 --> 00:55:06.760
that need that little bit inspiration,
They need to see you in that role.

828
00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:12.079
So I think it's really important for
a general cultural shift and to take

829
00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:16.440
away a lot of barriers that are
no longer imposed by institutions like the combat

830
00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:20.599
exclusion Act or anything like that,
like those are gone, but I think

831
00:55:20.599 --> 00:55:23.599
there's still a lot of more subtle
barriers that are harder to put your finger

832
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:28.360
on. That society puts in place
for people, and then we put in

833
00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:30.400
place for ourselves depending on what we
see. Well, Mace, it's an

834
00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:35.480
incredible career and it continues now and
the Air Force Reserves. Thank you so

835
00:55:35.559 --> 00:55:38.280
much for your time today, Congratulations
on the book, and thank you most

836
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:40.960
of all for your service to our
country. Now, thank you for having

837
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:44.480
me. You have some really great
questions I haven't been asked before. Oh

838
00:55:44.519 --> 00:55:49.159
fantastic. Always glad to hear that. Michelle Curran is a US Air Force

839
00:55:49.239 --> 00:55:52.960
veteran, still in the reserves thirteen
years active duty, served as a fighter

840
00:55:52.000 --> 00:55:55.880
pilot, serving in Afghanistan, as
we mentioned, ultimately becoming an Air Force

841
00:55:55.880 --> 00:56:00.039
Thunderbird pilot and ultimately a lead solo
pilot. She's also the author of the

842
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:06.400
brand new children's book Upside Down Dreams. I'm Greg Corumbus and this is Veterans

843
00:56:06.480 --> 00:56:20.639
Chronicles. Hi, this is Greg
Corumbus, and thanks for listening to Veterans

844
00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:25.039
Chronicles, a presentation of the American
Veterans Center. For more information, please

845
00:56:25.159 --> 00:56:30.719
visit American Veterans Center dot org.
You can also follow the American Veterans Center

846
00:56:30.800 --> 00:56:37.000
on Facebook and on Twitter We're at
AVC update. Subscribe to the American Veterans

847
00:56:37.000 --> 00:56:43.239
Center YouTube channel for full oral histories
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848
00:56:43.440 --> 00:56:49.000
please subscribe to the Veterans Chronicles podcast
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849
00:56:49.079 --> 00:56:52.760
for listening, and please join us
next time for Veterans Chronicles