1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:06,599 You're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network, the best in paranormal talk radio 2 00:00:06,759 --> 00:00:12,519 in the UK and around the world. If you had a near death, 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:18,559 shared death or spiritually transformative experience, how much can you believe in the events 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:23,440 that happen to you, assuming that you tell the truth. How much can 5 00:00:23,519 --> 00:00:28,320 other people believe in the stories you tell? Doctor Jan Holden is going to 6 00:00:28,399 --> 00:00:33,640 give us the inside scoop on these questions. Welcome to the Afterlife Files, 7 00:00:33,679 --> 00:00:39,000 where we investigate near death, shared death experiences and how they affect you. 8 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,520 Unlike podcasts that are just stories, we will give you the heads up on 9 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:49,880 what to look for in our conversation. Then after the interview stick around. 10 00:00:50,359 --> 00:00:55,000 We'll help you make sense of those accounts so you can incorporate the insights into 11 00:00:55,039 --> 00:00:59,640 your life. I think you'll find them. Once your most profound questions have 12 00:00:59,719 --> 00:01:04,840 been answered, living life in the physical is filled with more peace and joy. 13 00:01:18,599 --> 00:01:23,120 Here's your heads up. In addition to believability, Jane is going to 14 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:29,079 talk about mine versus brain. Can we verify what other people perceive during their 15 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:34,159 experience, our purpose in life? How do we live with what we know? 16 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,560 And how do we think about controversial issues. That's a really fun one. 17 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:45,799 You'll soon be clear that Jan has been a professional educator her entire life. 18 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,400 Afterwards, I summarize my notes and I needed to look up how to 19 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:57,239 spell erudite. She's that clear in her explanations. Here is Jan's bio. 20 00:01:57,359 --> 00:02:04,000 After thirty one years on the University of North Texas Counseling Program faculty, Jan 21 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:10,520 Holden retired in two nineteen as Professor Emerita of Counseling. Beginning in nineteen eighty 22 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:17,400 eight with her doctoral dissertation, her primary research focus has been counseling implication of 23 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:23,919 near death and related experiences. In this research area, she has over fifty 24 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:32,639 referee journal publications, several chapter and book publications, including lead editorship editorship on 25 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:38,719 the two thousand and nine Handbook of Near Death Experience That would be this guy 26 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:46,639 right here. It's a great book, and over one hundred national and international 27 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:55,680 presentations. Among Jan's numerous recognitions is the two nineteen unt Eminent Faculty Award, 28 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,520 one of the university's highest honors. Since two thousand and eight, she has 29 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:07,800 served as an editor in chief of the International Association for Near Death Studies Scholarly 30 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:14,240 Journal, and Jan you get extra stars in heaven for doing that. Doctor 31 00:03:14,319 --> 00:03:21,439 Holden serves currently as Ian's President. Her website is Janholden dot com. Here's 32 00:03:21,479 --> 00:03:32,560 our interview. Hey there, Jan, Wow, it is great to have 33 00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:38,240 you today. Hey Scott, I'm so happy to see you. This is 34 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:46,199 going to be a fun hour. So let's get right at it. How 35 00:03:46,199 --> 00:03:50,080 did you get interested in near death experiences? Way back at the beginning? 36 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,080 Oh my goodness, you really want to hear the whole story. Well, 37 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:58,520 I when I was growing up, I was always interested in things that couldn't 38 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,439 be easily explained, like esp and things like that. So I read books 39 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:10,719 about that, and about like Edgar Casey, the sleeping prophet who would diagnose 40 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:15,520 people's medical conditions that he'd never even met, and you know, things like 41 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,560 that. And then when I was in college, I was home one summer 42 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:24,040 and my father had been reading a book called The Great Soul Trial. And 43 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:30,879 it's a non fiction book about a minor in Arizona who disappeared and when the 44 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:36,360 state opened his safe deposit box, presuming him dead, they found several hundred 45 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:41,680 thousand dollars. Now, this is around nineteen sixty, when several hundred thousand 46 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:46,680 dollars was more than it isn't today, and a handwritten note saying that he 47 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:50,240 wanted the money used for research on the survival of the human soul after death. 48 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:57,079 So the State of Arizona put a little ad in the paper in which 49 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,839 they had to do, and they thought nobody would see it in the whole 50 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,959 time, would just disappear and they would get to keep the money for the 51 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:09,720 state coffers. But to their surprise, over a hundred entities and organizations came 52 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:15,399 forward to claim the money from this will, And so the book is mostly 53 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:24,079 trans Oh, so the State of Arizona actually had to put on a trial 54 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:29,519 where they heard all these people come and testify how they would use the money, 55 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,160 and then a judge would decide who got the money. So there's a 56 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,439 little ironic follow up to this that I'll tell you about. Not everybody would 57 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:42,720 appreciate this, but I'm sure you will, so I can't wait. So 58 00:05:42,759 --> 00:05:50,959 the book is mostly the transcripts of the trial, and included were the research 59 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:58,560 director of the American Society for Psychical Research, the research director of the Psychical 60 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:03,000 Research Foundation, testifying how they would use this money to do research on the 61 00:06:03,079 --> 00:06:08,480 survival of the human soul after death. So it was just fascinating to me. 62 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:16,519 And so here's the ironic twist. The judge, the ASPR and the 63 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:24,959 PRF that I just mentioned, and the Baronneurological Institute in Phoenix were the three 64 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:30,720 big contenders for the money, and the judge, in his wisdom, gave 65 00:06:30,759 --> 00:06:36,160 the money to the Baroneurological Institute that said that they were going to do research 66 00:06:36,199 --> 00:06:42,759 on the survival of the human soul after death by dissecting brain like somehow that 67 00:06:42,879 --> 00:06:50,199 was gonna make sense. But because they were the most like acceptable organization, 68 00:06:50,319 --> 00:06:57,199 I think that that played into anyway, the ASPR and the PRF got together 69 00:06:57,399 --> 00:07:04,480 filed a what do you call that an appeal? Thank you the Yeah. 70 00:07:04,519 --> 00:07:10,399 So the ESPR and the PRF got together, fouled an appeal and won it, 71 00:07:10,959 --> 00:07:15,920 and the money was actually used in what still today is some of the 72 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:23,519 best research and out of body experiences where they used and somebody who was adept 73 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:28,240 at having out of body experiences and going, you know, doing astral projection 74 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,519 to another room and reading a coded kind of thing and that sort of stuff. 75 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:44,720 So here's the ironic twist. Fast forward now probably thirty years and comes 76 00:07:44,759 --> 00:07:49,160 Pam Reynolds, who will probably be talking about more later today, and she 77 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:57,120 for a long time was the poster child for vertical perception, which is the 78 00:07:58,399 --> 00:08:03,800 that where the near death experiencer, based on the position and condition of their 79 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:11,480 physical body, they shouldn't know certain things, they shouldn't be able to perceive 80 00:08:11,639 --> 00:08:16,959 things or no things that they do and are later shown to be accurate. 81 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:26,959 And in her case, they were doing this surgery on her brain to remove 82 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:35,120 an aneurysm that they had to first of course totally anesthetize her, then lower 83 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:41,759 her body temperature to about sixty degrees, which her that her heart then stopped 84 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:48,879 and they had her on a machine that took her blood out and kept it 85 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:54,000 viable while they and they drained the blood out of her brain so they could 86 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,919 go in and do this aneurism, fix this aneurism. And when they did, 87 00:09:00,039 --> 00:09:05,000 they repair, they closed her up later back down, warmed her up, 88 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:11,759 started her heart and she was back well. She reported that during the 89 00:09:13,799 --> 00:09:18,960 just as they were about to after they had done the incision into the back 90 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,840 of her head and they inserted they were I'm sorry, they were about to 91 00:09:24,879 --> 00:09:30,080 do the incision in the back of her head, and they used what's called 92 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,720 a bone saw, and that the sound of that saw. She's a music 93 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,759 she was a musician, and it was like this high d and she said, 94 00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:48,039 suddenly she was conscious, and she was like over the surgeon's left shoulder, 95 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:56,320 watching him as he was cutting into the bone of her skull. And 96 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,799 meanwhile there was a woman down at towards foot end of her body. And 97 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:11,039 the woman was saying, the vein is too small, and her surgeon up 98 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:18,120 at the head said try the other side, and so in fact, in 99 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,039 order to and she and Pam said, she thought to herself, what's that 100 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:28,120 woman doing down like in my like pelvic area when this is supposed to be 101 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:35,200 brain surgery. Well, she didn't realize that they used the ephemeral artery in 102 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:43,279 the groin to attach to the blood machine, and so she was trying to 103 00:10:43,279 --> 00:10:46,600 get the hook up and the vein was too small, so she went to 104 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,879 the other side succeeded, and that's how they got the you know, circuit 105 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:58,679 kept her blood viable. So later when she regained consteousness, she reported this 106 00:11:00,279 --> 00:11:03,320 and it turned out that you know, they keep really careful records, and 107 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:09,360 indeed, that is exactly what had happened. But the question is, how 108 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:18,360 can somebody who was totally anesthetized chilled down to sixty degrees. Now, her 109 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:24,679 heart hadn't stopped at this point yet, but they were draining the blood from 110 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:31,519 her head and cutting into her skull. And her eyes, of course, 111 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:35,039 were taped shut, as they always are when we're fully anesthetized, because our 112 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:41,600 eyes would dry out. But in her case, her ears were stuffed with 113 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:52,960 these little speakers that fed this loud banging noise into one ear and loud white 114 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,799 noise in the other ear. And they switched off because the loud banging noise, 115 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,120 if it just stayed in one ear, it would create caused deafness, 116 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,200 so they switched back and forth. But she's constantly got this sound bombarded in 117 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:11,919 her ears, and that's because they're monitoring her EG her brain waves to make 118 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:16,879 sure because the last thing to go is hearing. So when they got this 119 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:22,200 thing blasting in her ears and her EG goes flat, it's like she's not 120 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:28,600 Her brain isn't functioning anymore, it's not processing even this loud sound. And 121 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,360 it was these speakers were stepped in her ears, they filled her ears, 122 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:41,159 and then they put gauze and tape over them, so she couldn't hear anything 123 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:52,120 normally. And yet she recounted this conversation that was verified by operation records. 124 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:58,159 And she also said that she saw when she saw what he was holding that 125 00:12:58,279 --> 00:13:03,039 the She said she had heard the term bone saw, but this didn't look 126 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,639 like anything she had thought was a bone saw. She said, it looked 127 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:13,840 like an electric toothbrush. And the person who researched this case, originally, 128 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,480 Michael Sabam, a cardiologist, had to send off to Fort Worth, Texas 129 00:13:18,519 --> 00:13:26,799 to get a picture of this thing and and it and it turns out that 130 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:31,399 it looks exactly like an electric tooth pressure. It's more like a drill than 131 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,600 a us you know, we think of a sawe for her, you know. 132 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:41,480 So anyway, she became like the poster child for vertical perception. And 133 00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:52,480 here's the ironic part where this pioneering surgical procedure, at the time it was 134 00:13:52,679 --> 00:14:00,799 very pioneering, was done was the Baron Neurological Institute in Phoenix, the Zona, 135 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,879 the very place that had originally been, you know, given the kid's 136 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,360 will. Then it was taken from them, and then they ended up being 137 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:16,320 the site that provided at the time the best evidence for the survival of the 138 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,120 human soul after death. It's just like the universe has got to be laughing 139 00:14:20,159 --> 00:14:28,480 at this. Yeah, so and so that was a case that really piqued 140 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:35,600 your attention. It did, and so so I was working. So I 141 00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:41,840 read then then to fast forward that that book, The Great Soul Trial. 142 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:50,039 That was around nineteen seventy and then in nineteen eighty seventy eight I read Raymond 143 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,639 Moody's book Life After Life about near death experiences, and of course that captured 144 00:14:54,639 --> 00:15:01,000 my attention. And then in about nineteen eighty five, I was starting work 145 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:09,320 on my doctoral dissertation at Northern Illinois University and counselor Education. And to make 146 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:16,360 a long story short, the idea that actually went through to the end was 147 00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:24,480 on something related to near death experiences. And as you probably well know, 148 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,679 a lot of people when they do their doctoral dissertation, you have to do 149 00:15:28,759 --> 00:15:35,080 it so intently and oh if to defend everything you do, and by the 150 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,159 end a lot of people are just sick of the topic and they never want 151 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,399 to touch it again. I was just the opposite. I was enthralled, 152 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:50,080 and so it really created I guess the foundation for my thirty plus years of 153 00:15:50,159 --> 00:15:58,240 research on NDEs and then expanded into related topics, especially after death communication. 154 00:15:58,399 --> 00:16:04,600 So I've really researched both of those things, but the my absolute favorite topic 155 00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:11,600 is vertical perception for for reasons I'm sure we'll get into. Well, you 156 00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:22,000 married your interest in m NDEs with counseling. Yeah, and so clearly you 157 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:30,039 were seeing people being affected by spiritually transformative experiences. That's right, Yeah, 158 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:37,399 definitely. Um, you know d's interface with counseling at a lot of different 159 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:44,480 levels. There's the level of clinicians actually working with people who've had NDEs. 160 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:51,320 And I did a study. We'd been hearing horror stories about people who who 161 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:57,720 had had horrible disclosure experiences where they tell about their near death experience in their 162 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:07,160 counselor don't recognized that what they're talking about. They dismiss the importance of it, 163 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:15,720 They diagnose the person or the experiences being somehow pathological, or even demonize 164 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:22,759 the experiences somehow evil. But no actual research had been done. And I 165 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:32,559 did a study of near death experiencers experiences disclosing their NDEs, two healthcare professionals 166 00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:40,519 and learned about what constituted really good experiences and really bad experiences, and now 167 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:48,759 I use that to train counselors about how not to harm near death experiencers and 168 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:55,279 other transpersonal experiencers. So there's that level, and then there's also counseling is 169 00:17:55,319 --> 00:18:02,160 based in theory, and theory is based in philosophy. Near death experiences raise 170 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:11,400 the question of materialism versus idealism, materialism being the belief that everything is fundamentally 171 00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:17,319 physical and that so, for example, our thoughts and all of that is 172 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:26,240 a manifestation somehow of all the electrochemical things going on in our brains, versus 173 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:34,839 idealism, which is that belief that consciousness and the brain are essentially separate though 174 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:47,200 closely related during physical existence, and that so consciousness precedes the physical brain and 175 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:55,400 survives the existence of the physical brain, and the brain actually serves as a 176 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:02,960 filter of consciousness, so that we actually have much greater consciousness than we usually 177 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,160 are aware of when we're in our physical bodies, because the brain filters out 178 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:12,400 the stuff that isn't necessary to get around to navigate this level of reality, 179 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:18,920 you know. So, Um, so there's so, as I said, 180 00:19:18,039 --> 00:19:26,319 on a lot of different levels. Um, there's an interface between NDEs and 181 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:33,599 other spiritually transformative experiences and counseling. Yeah, and have you found that that 182 00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:38,599 that view, the idealistic view? So am I saying that right, yes, 183 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,720 is now predominant in the world of counseling. Are we still in the 184 00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:56,160 material and if only, we're definitely still in the material Materialism, philosophical materialism 185 00:19:56,279 --> 00:20:03,039 still dominates science and medicine, and so that's one of the things that we're 186 00:20:03,759 --> 00:20:08,599 in Ions. We're addressing, And in fact, I'm going to be doing 187 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,880 a special you know, I'm editor of the Journal of Near Death Studies, 188 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:18,839 and I'm going to be doing a special issue on whether IONS should actually take 189 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:30,319 a stand that the based on the evidence, the best model is idealism, 190 00:20:30,599 --> 00:20:37,720 and that materialism is valid for the aspect of reality that it addresses, but 191 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:48,559 idealism is includes and extends beyond that and answers questions that materialism can't, questions 192 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:55,279 like vertical perception. Well, you get an extra star in heaven for not 193 00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,359 only being president of IONS, but being the editor. And that's quite a 194 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:07,960 question to put out before the troops. It really is that, you know, 195 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:14,400 are we really going to say that you know that the cases sort of 196 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,400 kind of closed on whether it's materialism versus idealism. Yeah, And one of 197 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:29,119 the things about I'm going to be talking about something called reflective judgment theory, 198 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:37,799 which is the it's based in extensive research, and it's about how people think 199 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:45,880 about controversial issues. And they're essentially three phases that people go through in their 200 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:52,400 thinking pre reflect In the pre reflective phase, people don't really know that much 201 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,759 about it, but they listen to an authority and adapt that position kind of 202 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:06,799 vehemently without really knowing everything. And then in the next phase they start to 203 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,920 examine the phenomenon and they realize that there actually are several valid points of view 204 00:22:12,759 --> 00:22:18,759 that have their merits, and that the one point of view they've been holding 205 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:25,799 is only one among many that are all have their merits, but they differ 206 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,279 from each other. Now, this is this is a step beyond prereflective. 207 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:37,759 It's you know, progress, but it's not the ultimate progress because here the 208 00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:42,319 person is caught in a mire of relativism. It's like, well that this 209 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:48,279 is valid and that's valid, so there just is no answer. And then 210 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:56,319 in the final stage, the person actually way evaluates in ways all the evidence 211 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:03,079 from these different arguments and comes to realize that some arguments are stronger than others, 212 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:10,160 and comes to what is what I call a current best answer, and 213 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,000 that is and so when you say, you know, like the case is 214 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,799 essentially closed, it's like sort of, it's like, as of right now, 215 00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:26,200 the best answer we have is idealism and um and but we're open to 216 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:32,799 continuing to consider new evidence and all that stuff. So it's it's there's a 217 00:23:33,559 --> 00:23:37,200 strength in the position, but it isn't the vehemence of the pre reflective. 218 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:44,920 It's more the it's more circumspect um and saying, well, this is as 219 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,359 far as all the evidence is, this is the best answer we have so 220 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:56,240 far. So um Ian's has taken a m that's the International Association for Near 221 00:23:56,279 --> 00:24:03,000 Death Studies has taken a neutral stance on like we we're neutral about you know, 222 00:24:03,079 --> 00:24:11,119 topics like religion and things like that, and that neutrality has kind of 223 00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:18,640 um pervaded everything, including taking a stance like this on a philosophical position. 224 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:25,079 And so what I'm going to be arguing what the in the special issue. 225 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:30,319 I'll be writing the lead article where I make the case that I think it's 226 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,680 time for ions to do this. And then I'm going to invite all kinds 227 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:40,920 of people, like a lot of the people you've been interviewing to respond and 228 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:45,279 U and I also am going to do a survey of IONS membership to find 229 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:53,400 out what their beliefs are and and then see if it maybe results in actually 230 00:24:53,920 --> 00:25:00,240 IONS taking a position and posting it on our website and saying, you know, 231 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:07,039 we're where um, this is where we are. Well, certainly the 232 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:15,200 research backs you up in terms of the idealism, and peopleheartedly Yeah, so 233 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:22,240 UM as your first vote right here, right now, All right, let's 234 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,119 take a stand and you know we're gonna call it for idealism. Yeah. 235 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:36,920 So when back to you, you were talking about the um when people are 236 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:48,759 having to disclose what happened to them, Um, you there's a um there, 237 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:55,880 there's some perception that they had, and of course it's really just their 238 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,720 perception because rarely, very rarely is it a share things. So you know, 239 00:26:00,839 --> 00:26:06,319 how how do you deal with that from a research perspective, From a 240 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,160 philosophical perspective, Yeah, well, in fact, you've touched on exactly why 241 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:15,279 verritical perception is so near and dear to my heart, because you know, 242 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:23,960 near death experiencers come back with messages about meaning and purpose in life and kind 243 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:33,880 of the purpose of human existence on earth. And and they're they're very potentially 244 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:41,160 influential messages, like, as you know, the most important thing is love, 245 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:47,240 and we're here to advance in our capacity to love and also to acquire 246 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:52,240 knowledge. Those are the two themes that come out, but definitely love first 247 00:26:52,279 --> 00:27:00,440 and then learning. And but if if people are to take this message, 248 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:07,759 and that message has the potential to influence everything from moment to moment personal decisions 249 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:15,839 to global policy decisions. You know, the moment to moment personal decision is 250 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:26,400 if somebody you know flips me the bird while I'm driving because I accidentally cut 251 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:33,839 them off, how do I respond in thought and attitude and um and even 252 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,799 more so if I'm actually interacting with the person, you know, how do 253 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:47,440 I respond when I'm feeling challenged in some way and choosing the path of love 254 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:53,319 rather than you know, absence of love? At the global level? Um, 255 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,920 you know, how do I decide whether I'm going to invade another kind 256 00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:03,240 of tree? You know? Is this the most loving thing to do? 257 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:11,319 And so? Um. So, in order for this potentially very powerful message 258 00:28:11,759 --> 00:28:18,720 to pervade society, we have to get passed or not passed, but beyond 259 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:26,519 the idea that near death experiences are just subjective experiences that are people's you know, 260 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:38,680 personal happenings, and yeah, exactly anecdotes. And so that's why, 261 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:48,000 um, where these cases where people have again perceived things or come to know 262 00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:56,160 things that based on everything for them physically and what they should know and so 263 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,519 forth, they shouldn't be able to perceive these things. They shouldn't know these 264 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:06,240 things, and yet they're shown to be accurate. And for my chapter on 265 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:11,240 vertical perception in the Handbook of Near Death Experiences, which is that's really nice. 266 00:29:11,279 --> 00:29:15,759 It's right over your right shoulder there, I did a study where I 267 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:26,440 just gleaned the published literature for cases of vertical perception and then I analyzed them 268 00:29:26,519 --> 00:29:33,240 in terms of how evidential they were. So there are some cases where a 269 00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:38,839 person says, you know, I saw something during my NDE and when I 270 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:45,079 regained consciousness it turned out to be accurate. It wasn't anything that I could 271 00:29:45,119 --> 00:29:51,160 have seen during with normal physical abilities. Well that's interesting, but it's not 272 00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:56,640 really evidential. At the other extreme, our things are cases, and we 273 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:03,720 call them cases rather than anecdotes because in the book the Self does Not Die, 274 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,119 which I would love for you to put on your shelf. Find you 275 00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:18,720 behind you. Yeah, the the authors have actually gone back into these published 276 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:26,799 cases to them. In most cases it was the physician who was attending the 277 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:32,920 person who had the NDE who verified that what they perceived was accurate. So 278 00:30:33,319 --> 00:30:38,480 like, for example, this is from a case from the Self does Not 279 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:47,319 Die. A woman is in surgery. She unexpectedly flatlines, her heart stops, 280 00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:52,839 her breathing stops. She's temporarily dead. And what we know from people 281 00:30:52,880 --> 00:31:00,200 like Kim ven Lamalis that after twenty seconds after the heart stops, there's no 282 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:07,079 more detectable brain activity. So but yet this is when she said that she 283 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:12,480 was up above well, so let me let me tell the story as it 284 00:31:12,519 --> 00:31:18,680 actually happened. So she was flatlined for a few minutes, and then they 285 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,319 finally got her heart going again. They finished the surgery, and of course 286 00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:26,400 this whole time she's completely anesthetized, with her eyes teep shed and all that 287 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:33,240 stuff, you know, has no physical memory of any of this. They 288 00:31:33,279 --> 00:31:37,799 take her to post ops, she regains consciousness, Her surgeon comes to check 289 00:31:37,839 --> 00:31:41,279 on her well being and she says, I know I died during the surgery. 290 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:48,119 And he's like, what, and she says, yeah, I um. 291 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,319 I was up above the ceiling looking through the ceiling, and I could 292 00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:56,559 see like, you did this, and then this person did this, and 293 00:31:56,599 --> 00:32:01,000 then this guy came in with this machine and he dropped it off and then 294 00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:06,079 he left. So that was the only time nette guy ever was and she 295 00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:09,319 could describe him. And the physician's like. The surgeon is like, oh 296 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,640 my gosh, you know, and he said, you're right, you're right, 297 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,359 You're right, and he's amazed, which he shouldn't have been, because 298 00:32:15,559 --> 00:32:19,880 if he knew anything, he would know that this is not uncommon. But 299 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,039 this isn't the really good part of this story, he says. She says, 300 00:32:23,079 --> 00:32:27,079 like, I said, I was above the ceiling and I was looking 301 00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:31,200 through and I could also see into the adjacent operating room, and there they 302 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:37,200 were amputating a man's leg and when they finished, they put the amputated leg 303 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:42,640 in a yellow plastic bag to dispose of it. So the surgeon says, 304 00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:46,720 and I saw him interviewed online and the interview is unfortunately gone now, but 305 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:52,640 he said, I have no idea what's going on in the other operating rooms. 306 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,559 Of the hospital. I don't pay attention. But he said, now 307 00:32:54,599 --> 00:32:59,319 we were, you know, a couple hours after the surgery, So he 308 00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:02,200 said, I left her. I went to the hospital records and found that, 309 00:33:02,359 --> 00:33:07,039 in fact, while I was operating on her, they were amputating a 310 00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:10,480 man's leg in the next operating room. And he said, because that is 311 00:33:10,519 --> 00:33:16,000 a specialized operating room for amputation. I don't do amputation. I've never been 312 00:33:16,079 --> 00:33:21,200 in it. But at this time that I was looking up the records, 313 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,400 it happened to be empty. So I went and I poked my head inside, 314 00:33:24,599 --> 00:33:29,440 and there I saw the yellow plastic bags that they used to dispose of 315 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:37,240 amputated body parts. Now, how would a patient who is temporarily dead know 316 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:45,759 something that even her own surgeon doesn't know? And so this is where it's 317 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:53,240 a case where she perceived things that were not in any way part of what 318 00:33:53,400 --> 00:34:01,880 she expected, that were physically impossible for her to know sure, and then 319 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:13,960 were later verified by records and a surgeon's testimony. So so these cases indicate 320 00:34:14,159 --> 00:34:22,360 that near death experiences are not just subjective experiences. And in the in the 321 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:30,440 chapter that I wrote for the handbook, I found that the vast majority of 322 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:38,360 these cases are completely accurate, and only in a minority of cases were there 323 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:46,840 either minor errors or there was one case that was completely erroneous and out of 324 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:55,519 something like one hundred and three cases or something like that. And now critics 325 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,360 might say, well, maybe when if somebody says, as you know, 326 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,519 I saw this blah blah blah, and then the surgeon goes and checks and 327 00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:08,320 it's wrong, they're not going to publish that. But there's a statistician named 328 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:15,079 Jessica Utts who has done an analysis, and for that to be the case, 329 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:22,760 there would have to be a few hundred erroneous cases that had not been 330 00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:27,800 reported. And in all the times that I've talked about this phenomenon and so 331 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:31,920 forth, and talked with even physicians and that sort of thing, you would 332 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:37,760 think if there had been cases of erroneous perception that they would pipe up then 333 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,159 and say, oh, yeah, well I did have such a case. 334 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:49,679 Never has that happened. So the evidence again strongly indicates that by and large, 335 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:58,599 much very much the majority, a huge majority of people's perceptions during NDEs 336 00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:05,119 are accurate, and that of things that can be checked. And I should 337 00:36:05,119 --> 00:36:14,119 probably say too that these perceptions occur both in the material domain and the transmaterial 338 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,760 domain. So the case that I told you about was perceiving the material domain. 339 00:36:19,199 --> 00:36:24,760 But there are cases from the trans material domain where people have during their 340 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:32,360 NDE encountered deceased loved ones, but they didn't know in physical life that the 341 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:39,039 person had died. And another case from the self does not die of boy 342 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:46,880 is in the hospital and he is close to death and unconscious and all that 343 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,760 stuff. And I don't think in his case he flatlined. But you don't 344 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,360 have to it, doesn't you know. It's it's a little more evidential if 345 00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,840 you were act if your brain was actually not functioning. But in this case, 346 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,679 he regained consciousness. His parents were there, you know, holding vigil 347 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:08,320 overnight. He regained consciousness, and he said, I, you know, 348 00:37:08,519 --> 00:37:14,400 like went to heaven and I saw, you know, Grandma so and so 349 00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:20,480 and Grandpa so and so, and I also saw my sister and um, 350 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,519 and you know, they welcomed me but told me that I had to go 351 00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:27,079 back. And so the parents are like, oh, uh huh, you 352 00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:30,800 know, that's a nice sweetheart. Um. They get home after spending the 353 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:36,000 whole night in the hospital of the boys now out of danger, so they 354 00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,840 can go home and like take a shower and get some sleep. And there 355 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:44,719 This was back in the days of um answering machines, and their answering machine 356 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:51,559 is full of all these messages from their daughter's college where she's off studying, 357 00:37:52,159 --> 00:37:55,199 trying to get a hold of them. They call back and find out that 358 00:37:55,199 --> 00:38:02,000 that the previous night, um just a few hours prior to when the boy 359 00:38:02,119 --> 00:38:09,239 regained consciousness, their daughter died in a car accident. Oh my, so 360 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:16,039 she was dead at the time that he had the experience. He was more 361 00:38:16,159 --> 00:38:22,159 right than anything they knew in the physical world at the time. So that's 362 00:38:22,199 --> 00:38:28,440 what I mean when I say the perceptions can be of the material world, 363 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:32,320 but they can also be in the transmaterial domain, you know, that's beyond 364 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,199 the material world. Yeah. So was that a case of after death communication? 365 00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:49,519 Yes? And yes, uhuh, And some of these experiences overlap because 366 00:38:49,519 --> 00:38:52,800 it was it was a near death experience. It had all the earmarks of 367 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,840 a near death experience. And as you know, in near death experiences, 368 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:04,280 people often do have after death communication with loved ones who have gone before them. 369 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,920 And so so yeah, it was an NDE that included an ADC, 370 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:21,719 a vertical ADC. Yeah, and I was going to change topics here sore 371 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:28,400 before I leave vertical experiences. Anything else you want to nail down for so 372 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:37,079 that we're we get where you're coming from. Well. Yeah. Another aspect 373 00:39:37,159 --> 00:39:45,400 of this topic is that several, probably eight different studies have been done where 374 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:52,079 the researcher tried to capture vertical perception under controlled conditions in the hospital. I 375 00:39:52,199 --> 00:39:59,679 did the first such study in one of my aborted dissertation attempts. By the 376 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:05,880 way back in the mid nineteen eighties, UM I was working with. I'm 377 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,239 part of that club, so we'd Yeah, I think anybody who's done it, 378 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:15,559 it's rare to for your first idea to go through. Let's say that 379 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:21,760 as encouragement to people who think, you know that if they're in this process, 380 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,559 that there's something wrong with them, because there isn't. There isn't. 381 00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:29,360 I don't know. But I was working with a chaplain named Lee Joston at 382 00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:37,360 UM a hospital in Park Ridge, Illinois, and we um I had an 383 00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:46,800 artist produce these agents squares that were actually U matting for M for pictures, 384 00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:52,119 and there was a red, yellow, blue, orange, green, and 385 00:40:52,320 --> 00:41:00,760 purple, and then randomly the artist would like on a red one, there 386 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,920 would be the number eight in each corner and then like a triangle in the 387 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:13,719 middle, and then another red one would have the numbers three with a circle 388 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:20,039 in the middle, and then a blue one would have the number A with 389 00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:22,920 the infinity signed in the middle. So they were all mixed up in terms 390 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:30,119 of the color, the number, and the symbol. But there were We 391 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:39,239 used eight six colors, six numbers and six symbols. And I had janitors 392 00:41:40,079 --> 00:41:45,400 installed, you know those things that go against the wall that you put a 393 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:51,199 bookshelf on that arm and that metal arm thing, and they installed them in 394 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:57,000 the corners of the rooms of the hospital where cardiac arrest was most likely to 395 00:41:57,039 --> 00:42:01,880 occur. And when they were onstall day, after things were quiet, I 396 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:07,440 took my box of these squares which were loaded in the box face down, 397 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:13,840 and I would pick up a square and go up a step stool and put 398 00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:19,960 the square up there so that I didn't know what was you know, on 399 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:25,400 which one. And the idea was that if somebody had a near death experience, 400 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:29,960 if they went into cardiac arrest, it had an NDE. They're up 401 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,639 at the ceiling, and most people report that their consciousness is at a ceiling 402 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,280 corner. So I had these, you know, in the corners, then 403 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:42,039 right under their nose so to speak. You know, they don't still have 404 00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:46,199 a nose, but would be this thing that hopefully would be in their line 405 00:42:46,199 --> 00:42:51,039 of sight. They would see it, and then when they're resuscitated, they 406 00:42:51,079 --> 00:42:53,559 would tell us what they saw, and then we could go up and if 407 00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:57,800 they said, you know, it was a red square with the numbers eight 408 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,960 and a triangle in the middle, we could go up there and verify that 409 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:07,360 that's what was at that location where they claimed their consciousness was. And then 410 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,599 you know, the chances would be one in six times six times six that 411 00:43:12,679 --> 00:43:17,039 they could have just guessed that even if they knew that there was a colored 412 00:43:17,679 --> 00:43:23,760 numbered, you know, which they wouldn't even have known. So so all 413 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:30,880 of the subsequent studies have been a variation on this. In one the researcher 414 00:43:30,079 --> 00:43:37,079 used you know one of those electronic signs that has a running phrase yeah. 415 00:43:37,119 --> 00:43:43,360 And in another special on Tuesday, yeah right, exactly exactly, and she 416 00:43:43,519 --> 00:43:50,559 used nonsense phrases like the lollypops are in bloom and you know that would hopefully 417 00:43:50,639 --> 00:43:55,159 stick with people. And then in another study that I did with Bruce Grayson 418 00:43:55,320 --> 00:44:01,840 in the cardiac catheterization lab where they have to up the person's heart twice in 419 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:09,159 the process of putting in a pacemaker, And we had a computer literally duct 420 00:44:09,199 --> 00:44:15,719 taped to the top of a monitor that was up above eye level, and 421 00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:23,519 before a procedure, Bruce would go in and turn on the computer and it 422 00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:27,920 would take about thirty seconds to boot up, by which time he would be 423 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,599 you know, back on the floor and out of the room, and it 424 00:44:30,639 --> 00:44:38,800 would randomly select an animation and show it for twenty seconds and then say the 425 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:44,239 time is now blah blah blah. Because one another one of the questions is 426 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:50,360 do NDEs actually occur at the time that people perceive them to occur, you 427 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:52,320 know, like while they're in the middle of being brain dead and that sort 428 00:44:52,320 --> 00:45:00,159 of thing. Yeah, So the bottom line for all these studies is that 429 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:07,079 none of them so far has succeeded in capturing a case they Many of them 430 00:45:07,159 --> 00:45:15,320 have yielded more cases of vertical perception that appear in the self does not die, 431 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:22,960 but they just didn't occur under the circumstances controlled circumstances, and so we 432 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:27,960 you know, they're on the most skeptical way to interpret that is to say, 433 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,119 well, this is all just fiction and that's why you're not getting anything. 434 00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:37,519 But the more informed viewpoint that comes from a lot of advice from near 435 00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:43,119 death experiencers is that, well, first of all, we know that, 436 00:45:43,519 --> 00:45:47,639 first of all, vertical perception itself is rare, and so the chance of 437 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:54,000 capturing this even doing a multihospital study, you know, like Pim Bevan Lammel 438 00:45:54,119 --> 00:46:06,360 did and oh I'm blanking his name. No, he's from England and he's 439 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:13,079 done the studies most recently. I'll think of his name in a minute. 440 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:22,480 Anyway, for um, I lost the point that I was getting to. 441 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:29,239 Oh yeah, so yeah, in all these cases. Oh so the least 442 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:40,079 the more informed perception is that that vertical perception is rare to begin with, 443 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:47,800 and most of the time when people are out of their bodies, they're not 444 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,639 looking at things like, you know, a colored square with numbers and symbols 445 00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:58,039 on it. They're focused on the physical body and stuff that's going on around 446 00:46:58,039 --> 00:47:07,360 the physical body, and um, and so the circumstances are against us for 447 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:14,119 being able to capture this under controlled circumstances. So um, so we're still 448 00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:19,440 you know, toying with ideas about how to do how to do this research 449 00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:27,679 and be able to um continue to try to capture it under controlled circumstances, 450 00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:31,079 which would be you know, even more evidential than all the cases that we've 451 00:47:31,119 --> 00:47:37,559 collected. Yeah, Peter Fannik Fanny Chance. No, but you're getting closer. 452 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:49,119 He's worked with Peter um and I'm seeing his face. He's a actually 453 00:47:49,159 --> 00:47:55,639 a lung specialist. Um Ah, this is just maddening when I can't think 454 00:47:55,639 --> 00:48:04,119 of somebody's name. Um, I'm trying. I'm using the go through the 455 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:13,679 Samparnia. Oh yeah, yeah, Samparnia. Thank you, Okay, switching 456 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:20,360 subjects. Yeah, tell us about IONS and the work that IONS does and 457 00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:27,519 who comes to IONS conferences and you know, feel us a down a little 458 00:48:27,519 --> 00:48:34,519 bit because this is a really influential organization. Yeah, it is. It's 459 00:48:34,599 --> 00:48:42,360 it's amazing because most of the people who work for IONS are volunteers, and 460 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:47,400 the fact that we do the stuff we do with this huge volunteer network is 461 00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:57,159 just sort of awesome to me. But the mission of IONS is to enhance 462 00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:05,280 global understanding of near deathics experiences and related experiences through research, education, and 463 00:49:05,519 --> 00:49:10,000 support. So the research part I've talked a little bit about We published the 464 00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:16,559 journal and which provides a venue for people to be able to publish work on 465 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:23,199 NDEs and related experiences that they might not be able to publish in other venues. 466 00:49:23,239 --> 00:49:27,920 Though at the time that the journal was started, that was a much 467 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,559 bigger problem than it is now. Now you find articles on NDEs all you 468 00:49:31,599 --> 00:49:38,199 know, everywhere, UM in in you know, academic journals, UM. 469 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:45,800 And then and we also UM support researchers who are doing research on NDEs by 470 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:53,159 giving them access to our Near Death Experienced Database. UM. So that's a 471 00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:58,000 little bit about the research part. And we published the Self does Not Die, 472 00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:01,760 and a new edition of that is coming out next early next year. 473 00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,360 And so those are some of the research thing. Education. We do the 474 00:50:08,599 --> 00:50:14,159 conference and we have information on our website and so forth. We do a 475 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:20,400 symposium and I'll explain a little bit about the conference and symposium. I'll come 476 00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:29,239 back to that. And then for support, we have local groups. We 477 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:35,039 now have about fifty across the United States. We used to have like seventy 478 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,239 five or something, but the pandemic really you know, yeah, made a 479 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:47,159 mess of that. So we're getting back and people who've had near death experiences 480 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:54,480 or who have personal or professional interest in such experiences or related experiences, can 481 00:50:54,559 --> 00:51:00,519 come to what usually our monthly meetings and where they're might be a featured speaker 482 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:07,000 or the people might circle up and talk about their own experiences and things like 483 00:51:07,039 --> 00:51:16,440 that. And then IONS also has is go IONSUM support groups or sharing groups 484 00:51:16,519 --> 00:51:25,280 online, Ions sharing groups online and UM and that is an online forum where 485 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:31,639 we have speakers, and we have support groups of virtual support groups for people, 486 00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:37,599 especially people who don't have a local group near them, they can join 487 00:51:37,639 --> 00:51:45,000 a virtual group and UM. And so that's that's like the support and we 488 00:51:45,079 --> 00:51:51,039 have a lot of material on our website too to support people who are going 489 00:51:51,119 --> 00:51:55,639 to you know, talk about this to their physician or mental health professional or 490 00:51:57,119 --> 00:52:05,000 spiritual religious professional and like UM suggestions about how to be discerning and who you 491 00:52:05,079 --> 00:52:09,840 just close to and how to just close in ways that are likely to engender 492 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:15,440 a more helpful rather than harmful response and things like that. So all of 493 00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:20,119 that is the support part. So back to the education. UM are two 494 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:27,559 big UM efforts are our annual conference, which we tend to always hold on 495 00:52:28,159 --> 00:52:31,880 Labor Day, so that's the very end of August, beginning of September and 496 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:39,400 there we have this this is a little bit more UM for the general public 497 00:52:40,159 --> 00:52:46,960 muh. And we we do have researchers UM, but we also have like 498 00:52:47,159 --> 00:52:58,039 healers and health professionals and just experiencers. We have usually one experiencers panel every 499 00:52:58,119 --> 00:53:05,719 day of the conference, which is usually a four day conference. And so 500 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:10,360 up until up through twenty nineteen, we were meeting in person, of course, 501 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:16,480 and then the pandemic in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one, our conference 502 00:53:16,599 --> 00:53:22,079 was virtual. So like if your listeners wanted to go back and get the 503 00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:30,360 presentations from those two virtual conferences, they could do that viagogo, dot IENs 504 00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:39,639 dot org. And and this year we're again resuming in person. We're actually 505 00:53:39,679 --> 00:53:45,480 doing hybrid. It'll be in person in Salt Lake City, and anybody has 506 00:53:45,639 --> 00:53:51,880 invited anyone who has interest in these subjects. You can be an experiencer. 507 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,400 But most of the people are not near death experiencers. I would say that 508 00:53:54,440 --> 00:54:00,400 a lot of the people who attend have had transpersonal experiences of some kind, 509 00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:05,320 you know, after death communication, out of body experiences, past life memories, 510 00:54:06,039 --> 00:54:10,519 precognition, things like that, but not even not everybody has had such 511 00:54:10,519 --> 00:54:20,400 experiences, but anybody who's interested can come and people say, like I had 512 00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:27,039 at my counseling program at the University of North Texas that I was in for 513 00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:31,679 over thirty years, a big specialization of there's this play therapy, which is 514 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:40,519 working with children ages two to ten, eight to ten in a particular modality 515 00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:47,239 of counseling where the child goes into the playroom a playroom and plays for forty 516 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:55,960 five minutes while the counselor just is present with them and learns things about the 517 00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:04,519 child, reveals things about themselves. And so the year that I ENS had 518 00:55:04,519 --> 00:55:09,320 our conference in Honolulu, a few of my students came over and were helping 519 00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:15,840 with the conference, and they were all play therapists, and they commented something 520 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,079 that I've heard other people a lot of other people say, but they said 521 00:55:19,079 --> 00:55:22,159 it specifically about this, which I thought was really telling. That they said, 522 00:55:22,199 --> 00:55:25,559 you know, you would think that people who are play therapists, who 523 00:55:25,599 --> 00:55:30,599 are dedicated to children's well being, their mental health and all that, that 524 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:38,360 the conferences would have this feeling of cohesion and inspiration and collegiality and things like 525 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:44,119 that, but they don't. They said, here, we have this feeling. 526 00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:52,400 It's so unique. Everybody is like together and connected, and there's this 527 00:55:52,840 --> 00:56:02,280 like spiritual vibe that kind of pervades the conference and it's like qualitatively unique and 528 00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:08,679 so um so that's the advantage of coming in person. But that and I 529 00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:16,440 will um second that because I've often thought that we all i mean, people 530 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:22,480 have expressed it to me at conferences that this is their home when they either 531 00:56:22,599 --> 00:56:27,679 they've had an experience or they're curious about them, or a loved one had 532 00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:32,559 an experience, this was home for them that they felt free to talk about 533 00:56:32,599 --> 00:56:39,320 things, and and everybody is so willing to share that it does create that 534 00:56:39,639 --> 00:56:45,840 sense of community that you beautifully mentioned. So yeah, double bumbs up on 535 00:56:46,039 --> 00:56:51,559 going to conferences. Yeah, yeah, and especially you've done such a great 536 00:56:51,639 --> 00:56:55,760 job of co hosting several of our in person conferences, so you've been great. 537 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,079 Where are your kilts? It's all about the guilty, Yeah, absolutely. 538 00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:05,760 And you also run a symposium. What's that about? Right? So 539 00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:14,039 the symposium happens in the spring, sometimes the very early spring, and and 540 00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:19,480 it is a more focused it's a one day, usually one day. The 541 00:57:19,559 --> 00:57:23,199 last one we did actually was two days or three days, but usually it's 542 00:57:23,239 --> 00:57:30,880 a one day, focused online event focused on a particular topic. So our 543 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:39,639 first one was about disclosing near death experiences in healthcare environments, and it was 544 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:47,719 for healthcare professionals to help them not harm but actually help people who they you 545 00:57:47,719 --> 00:57:54,159 know, their clients and patients who've had NDEs and related experiences. The second 546 00:57:54,280 --> 00:58:01,880 one last year twenty one was or I'm Sorry. Twenty twenty two was on 547 00:58:02,599 --> 00:58:10,679 this the question of the relationship between mind and brain, this question of materialism 548 00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:16,599 versus idealism that we touched on earlier, and the one coming up for twenty 549 00:58:16,679 --> 00:58:22,840 twenty three is going to be on the role of near death experiences and related 550 00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:30,039 experiences in grief and grief counseling. So it will be for people who are 551 00:58:30,159 --> 00:58:36,880 grieving, who are counselors, who work with clients who are grieving, which 552 00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:45,280 is like who who doesn't, and and actually any healthcare professional whether mental health, 553 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:52,159 physical health like doctors and nurses, or spiritual religious health healthcare professionals like 554 00:58:53,239 --> 00:59:04,639 chaplains and clergy, and the role that these experiences play in in helping people 555 00:59:04,679 --> 00:59:08,880 with grief. So we'll be talking about end ease and grief after death communication, 556 00:59:09,199 --> 00:59:17,360 grief and out of body experiences and grief and maybe maybe some other things 557 00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:22,840 like past life memories and that sort of thing. Um, hearing from people 558 00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:30,800 who have actually experienced the role that the experience played in their grief process, 559 00:59:31,199 --> 00:59:36,320 but then also looking at research, you know, kind of the bigger picture 560 00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:40,920 of what we know about the effect and grief. So um, yeah, 561 00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,719 so that's going to be the twenty twenty three Boy, that sounds like fun. 562 00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:52,639 Oh can't wait. This is great And people can get information about the 563 00:59:52,760 --> 00:59:59,800 conference and the symposiums at the website yep i ens dot org i a n 564 01:00:00,119 --> 01:00:05,960 DS dot org. And it's a great website. It's huge. I mean, 565 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,079 there's all kinds of things in there. So yeah, once you start 566 01:00:09,119 --> 01:00:14,400 poking around, it's like a rabbit hole. Yeah, yeah, for sure 567 01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:21,440 it is. And we're wrapping this up, jan So any last little commercial 568 01:00:21,519 --> 01:00:30,480 that you want to give about something anything. I can't think of anything I've 569 01:00:30,559 --> 01:00:38,599 mentioned. We've talked about the conference, the symposium, the upcoming revised issue 570 01:00:38,639 --> 01:00:45,239 of the Self does Not Die the Journal of Near Death Studies. Maybe I 571 01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:51,559 will say that anybody who's interested the Journal of Near Death Studies, all of 572 01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:58,239 our articles from the past thirty plus years are available. The full article is 573 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:02,400 available online for free. So if you go to the IONS website, go 574 01:01:02,519 --> 01:01:07,239 to the research tab, go down to Journal of Near Death Studies, and 575 01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:13,519 then to past issues. When you click on that, you'll see the issues 576 01:01:13,599 --> 01:01:17,079 by volume number, and you just click on a volume, it opens up 577 01:01:17,119 --> 01:01:23,039 all of the articles that were published in that volume. And at the end 578 01:01:23,039 --> 01:01:29,480 of each citation is a DOI, a digital object identifier which is like an 579 01:01:29,519 --> 01:01:36,199 ID for an article, and you click on it and it brings up the 580 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:45,159 article in full. So thirty plus years of research available for free online. 581 01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:52,960 And yeah, and IONS has a newsletter, Yes, that's right. It's 582 01:01:52,000 --> 01:02:01,360 actually evolved into a magazine called Vital Signs. It's published quarterly so and it 583 01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:08,760 includes like there will usually be an NDE and just all kinds of information about 584 01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:16,400 things that are happening in Ions. And we also another that's a perk. 585 01:02:16,679 --> 01:02:22,639 You get it for free if you're an Ion's member. And another perk, 586 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:29,159 which is one of my favorites, is the monthly NDE. And that's where 587 01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:36,400 you know that you're just tooling through your email and suddenly appears the monthly NDE. 588 01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:39,199 And I don't know about you, but after all these years of all 589 01:02:39,199 --> 01:02:43,840 the research, I've done all the nd ears, I've heard and talked to 590 01:02:44,039 --> 01:02:49,280 and studied and everything. When I see that, I almost always drop everything 591 01:02:49,760 --> 01:02:55,559 and read it because it's another It's an account that one of our volunteers and 592 01:02:57,719 --> 01:03:02,639 takes from our archives. It has some particular interest, and it's the it's 593 01:03:02,679 --> 01:03:07,599 the actual account right there. And so I read another account of an Ndean 594 01:03:08,039 --> 01:03:14,639 and I'm inspired all over again. Every month. Well, Jan you have 595 01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:19,719 inspired us. So thank you for taking the time to be with us today 596 01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:28,039 here at the Afterlife Files. And gosh, best wishes as you lead the 597 01:03:28,199 --> 01:03:34,440 organization I ends into its future. And personally, of course, yes, 598 01:03:35,119 --> 01:03:43,679 I have a wonderful semi retirement, well said. Thank you so much Scott 599 01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:45,480 for having me. It's just been, like you said, a ton of 600 01:03:45,519 --> 01:04:00,000 fun. Wasn't that wonderful. There's a couple of concepts that could be experienced. 601 01:04:00,159 --> 01:04:03,119 It upon just be clear these are my viewpoints, but that's why you 602 01:04:03,159 --> 01:04:09,480 watch the Afterlife Files to gain perspective by using more than one lens with which 603 01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:15,760 to view this rich information. First, it feels like we should take a 604 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:20,840 stand on materialism versus idealism. All the research I've done, the interviews, 605 01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:26,960 I've conducted, the research I've read all point to the model of consciousness best 606 01:04:27,079 --> 01:04:32,679 explained by idealism. It's my vote for it being our current best answer. 607 01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:39,719 Thank you Jan Holden for giving us an introduction to reflective judgment theory. I 608 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:45,119 appreciate that you can check out this model for yourself by reading the many research 609 01:04:45,199 --> 01:04:51,960 oriented books on NDEs and by searching the database of stories at ians dot org. 610 01:04:53,440 --> 01:05:01,599 That's i a NDS or enderf dot org NDE RF. Second, I 611 01:05:01,679 --> 01:05:06,920 found her discussion of ridical experiences. Remember, those are the things that can 612 01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:15,440 be observed during an INDE or an SDE to be really helpful. I appreciate 613 01:05:15,519 --> 01:05:21,159 why research would be frustrated with their controlled experiments failing, and I can think 614 01:05:21,199 --> 01:05:26,760 of a lot better things to do to her during my INDE rather than recognize 615 01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:31,039 and remember some colored cards in the upper corner of the hospital room that just 616 01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:39,199 wouldn't rank as important considering what else is going on. Third, Jan opened 617 01:05:39,199 --> 01:05:44,119 this interview with an amazing story about Pam Reynolds. I did a quick search 618 01:05:44,159 --> 01:05:48,960 of YouTube and there are plenty of good videos describing her amazing experience. Check 619 01:05:49,039 --> 01:05:55,760 them out. Fourth, I did my doctoral research on how people change their 620 01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,039 leadership style based on what inde ears found out when they left the world of 621 01:06:00,119 --> 01:06:05,519 duality and entered into the universe of unity. I thought you did a nice 622 01:06:05,599 --> 01:06:13,280 job explaining how people make decisions moment to moment all the way to global decisions. 623 01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:18,400 It requires that experiencers check in with the truth of their perceptions and how 624 01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:24,760 that squares with the purpose of the universe. The jan reports to love and 625 01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:30,519 to advance our capacity to love. I do hope that videos such as this 626 01:06:30,679 --> 01:06:34,800 can give you some insight on what near death and shared death experiencers discover about 627 01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:40,559 the afterlife, the nature of consciousness, and how to live your life more 628 01:06:40,639 --> 01:06:45,079 fully. I have six albums that you can use to start your exploration of 629 01:06:45,119 --> 01:06:49,559 the trans material universe on your own, and if you're ready to jump all 630 01:06:49,599 --> 01:06:54,559 in. The best way to experience the other side is to participate in our 631 01:06:54,599 --> 01:06:58,039 five and a half day retreat. There are links below that will take you 632 01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:02,440 to the information on the different elements of our inde courses and the skill set 633 01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:10,039 that you'll learn. Our courses used by Neurobeat and Gamma Synchrony technology so that 634 01:07:10,079 --> 01:07:15,280 you can attain and sustain expanded states of consciousness easily and safely. That means 635 01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:21,239 our courses are perfect for both the depth meditators and newbies. Everyone will benefit. 636 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:28,360 Okay, so how will you make decisions based on what you've heard today? 637 01:07:28,480 --> 01:07:30,840 I trust you will make an effort to run down the three steps of 638 01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:39,519 reflective judgment theory process to get to the current best answer. If you're watching 639 01:07:39,519 --> 01:07:44,199 on YouTube, like, subscribe and comment. You can find The Afterlife Files 640 01:07:44,239 --> 01:07:48,119 on all podcasts streaming apps Apple, Google, Spotify, Audible, the Lot, 641 01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:53,000 follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok, or pay us a 642 01:07:53,119 --> 01:07:58,800 visit at near Death Meditations dot com. That's Near Death Meditations dot com. 643 01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:01,920 Buy now, see you next time, and thank you for joining us here 644 01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:03,559 at the Afterlife Files.