1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:50,200 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,520 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined again by author John Glatt, here to 11 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,119 talk to us about his new book, Tangled Vines, Power Privilege in the 12 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,880 Murdoch Family. John, thank you for joining us again on Mind Ever Murder. 13 00:01:03,599 --> 00:01:07,959 For having me so it was a pleasure. Tell us about what you've 14 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,200 been up to since the last time we talked to you. We had you 15 00:01:11,239 --> 00:01:14,879 on to talk about the Doomsday Mother, which we loved, and actually I 16 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,959 think I love Tangled Vines a lot more. But talk to us a little 17 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,000 bit about what you've been doing since then. Actually, after the Doomsday Mother, 18 00:01:22,079 --> 00:01:26,920 I threw myself right into Tangled Vines the best part of two years, 19 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,079 and I don't think I've had any book with so much research. I had 20 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:36,480 to buy new furniture just to keep the files because it was just growing exponitiously. 21 00:01:36,719 --> 00:01:41,200 Almost every day there'd be something new and it was very hard to keep 22 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:45,480 up with. So that kept me pretty busy. And since I finished it 23 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:49,239 a few months ago, I've just been taking this summer off and relaxing. 24 00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:53,120 Gosh, I can understand that. Tell us a little bit about your research 25 00:01:53,159 --> 00:01:57,159 process, then, because as you said, this is a massive case and 26 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,599 there is so much that had to have gone into this. Where do you 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:05,519 even start? It's labyrinthine really has so many different strands. Basically, I 28 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,919 started by going down to Hampton. Took myself down for the best part of 29 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:15,080 a month to Hampton in South Carolina, to the low Country to try and 30 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:20,759 get a feel for the place and meet as many people that knew the Murdocks 31 00:02:20,879 --> 00:02:23,680 as I could. And it was a very educational visit. You know, 32 00:02:23,759 --> 00:02:28,000 it took a lot of time to get to know the people. A lot 33 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,000 of people that was getting so much publicity by that time after the murders of 34 00:02:32,159 --> 00:02:38,439 Maggie and Paul that were people with a close rags for the Murdocks. So 35 00:02:38,479 --> 00:02:43,960 it took a lot of talking and socializing getting to know the various people to 36 00:02:44,039 --> 00:02:47,199 get the interviews I was looking for. My next question was going to be 37 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:53,599 how open were those residents in Hampton County to talking about the Murdoch It's a 38 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:59,360 small community, is it not very small? Everybody knows everybody else. The 39 00:02:59,479 --> 00:03:05,240 Murdocks, through Alex, his father, grandfather and great father great grandfather have 40 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:10,800 ruled the Low Country and the five counties as solicitors and powerbrokers for about one 41 00:03:10,879 --> 00:03:15,280 hundred and ten years, so they know everybody. And there was a certain 42 00:03:15,319 --> 00:03:20,240 amount of fear about talking about the Murdocks. People were very closed up. 43 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,879 They were worried that they didn't want anything to come out in print against them. 44 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,879 But as things went on they relaxed and became more open. But there 45 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,759 was a protective shield for the Murdocks and they liked them. Were they genuinely 46 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,400 I think the Murdocks helped a lot of people. They when somebody had a 47 00:03:38,479 --> 00:03:43,400 fire or something, they would give some money to rebuild. Somebody had an 48 00:03:43,439 --> 00:03:46,680 illness, they would pay hospital fees. So there was a lot of good 49 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:53,560 will generated for the Murdocks too. That surprises me on some level because the 50 00:03:53,680 --> 00:04:00,879 characterizations of the Murdoch seemed so dark or maybe now in retrospect actually found there 51 00:04:00,919 --> 00:04:04,639 were positive perceptions of the family when you were talking to people and trying to 52 00:04:04,719 --> 00:04:10,759 draw them out. Oh, absolutely, there was the public Murdocks and maybe 53 00:04:10,879 --> 00:04:15,519 you could say the private side. People saw the public Murdocks who were backslapping, 54 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:20,120 they shake your hand. Alex Murdoch, for instance, knew everybody by 55 00:04:20,199 --> 00:04:24,959 name and he'd walk past them in the street and he'd say hi, ask 56 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:30,279 about their family. He was a genuinely gifted politician and he engendered a lot 57 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:35,480 of good will because of this. So I think people felt protective against them 58 00:04:35,879 --> 00:04:40,279 for the Murdocks, which I think, as you said, Bill would surprise 59 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,360 a lot of people. But that was something I found definitely. What did 60 00:04:44,439 --> 00:04:46,240 you have to do to get people to open up to you. Did you 61 00:04:46,519 --> 00:04:50,079 have to socialize a lot or was it enough to say, hello, I'm 62 00:04:50,079 --> 00:04:54,800 an author and I'm interested in writing about this case. What did you need 63 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,639 to do to get people to open up to you. I just had to 64 00:04:57,759 --> 00:05:00,560 tell them where I was coming from my brittin these books. Before. Sometimes 65 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,800 I would give people books of mine that's been published, just so they could 66 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,399 get a feel for what I was doing and where I was at. I 67 00:05:09,439 --> 00:05:13,360 have a total respect for everybody I interviewed that told me something off the record, 68 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,680 I wouldn't use it. Also, there are a lot of people in 69 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,199 this book that I can't name because it would be dangerous for them for their 70 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,120 livelihoods or something, so I had to give them pseudonyms. But that was 71 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,040 to protect them. But I think once people got to know me and feel 72 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,720 comfortable with me, they would open up. That's the fact that your accent 73 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,480 stands out anywhere you go in the United States. Here you are. I 74 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,800 have Stings and Englishmen in New York in my head as I say this, 75 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,319 so it's obvious you're not from around here. As you travel around. Does 76 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,279 that work to your benefit because you're seen as exotic or does it make you 77 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:55,639 stand out because you're clearly not from the low Country? How funny you should 78 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,879 mention stings Englishmen in New York, because I actually knew Quent and Crisp and 79 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:04,319 spend time with him when I first came to New York forty years ago to 80 00:06:04,519 --> 00:06:09,319 the song's about. But as far as my accents concerned, it depends where 81 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,079 you are. Sometimes it'll work for me and sometimes it won't work for me 82 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:15,879 at all. You can never really tell. And I think the longer I've 83 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:20,240 been here, the more Brits are coming to America. It's not such an 84 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:25,399 unusual absence as it was when I first arrived forty years ago. But it 85 00:06:25,439 --> 00:06:29,639 can play to your advantage and it can also play to your disadvantage. Though 86 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,959 it's a toss up. What would you say are some of the most surprising 87 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:38,800 things that you learned about the Murdoch family and their history in Hampton County as 88 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:43,639 you were going through this research process. Yeah, I think how they operated 89 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:50,439 as a family and as the family law firm PMPED, which Alex's great grandfather 90 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:57,439 I founded in nineteen ten. They basically had Hampton and they had five counties. 91 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:02,680 It's the biggest kind of low countries, biggest constituency legal constituency in South 92 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:09,600 Carolina. And the murders controlled it. They also controlled the jurors when you 93 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:15,879 had civil ac plaintive actions. There was a shopping venue thing in South Carolina, 94 00:07:15,959 --> 00:07:19,480 so depending it didn't matter where you had the accident. It could be 95 00:07:19,519 --> 00:07:25,120 some other state. As long as the person the company you were suing had 96 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,240 a presence in Hampton or the four other counties, they could be sued there. 97 00:07:30,519 --> 00:07:35,120 So that's why all these hugely big law suits came to Hampton, and 98 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:39,680 that's why they were good to the people in Hampton, because the Hampton jurors 99 00:07:39,839 --> 00:07:45,360 were synonymous with giving huge cash payouts, bigger than anywhere else. And that's 100 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:49,839 one of the most interesting things I discovered. In fact, the railroad CSX 101 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:56,839 runs directly through South Carolina and through Hampton, so anytime there was a train 102 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,680 accident or something, it would come to a Hampton jury. Sorry. The 103 00:08:00,759 --> 00:08:07,319 interesting thing about that is Alex's great grandfather, Randolph Senior, actually was killed 104 00:08:07,319 --> 00:08:13,360 by a train by the same company in another incarnation in nineteen twenty. He 105 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:18,759 was coming back from a very drunken poker night, and nobody really knows if 106 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,399 it was just because he was drunk or he was trying to commit suicide because 107 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:26,319 his wife had just died. He dove as the tracks as the train was 108 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,240 coming and just waited there, actually waved to the sippleman said, as it 109 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,759 plowed into him and killed him completely. I think he was thrown one hundred 110 00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:41,600 and twenty yards away. And in fact, his son Buster actually sued the 111 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,600 train company and from then on they made millions, the Murdocks suing this train 112 00:08:46,759 --> 00:08:52,399 company forever for the next one hundred years. So that's how that started. 113 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,679 That's I found that very interesting. Yeah, that sounds like a suicide more 114 00:08:56,759 --> 00:09:03,120 than an accident, wouldn't you say, I thought so. Nobody wanted to 115 00:09:03,159 --> 00:09:05,360 speculate. To me, I thought it was a suicide I spoke to. 116 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:11,440 One of my best interviews was with a very close Murdoch friend called Sam Cruz, 117 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:16,120 the Third. Through him, his father and grandfather have been in time 118 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,559 with the Murdocks for over one hundred years. He opened up to me in 119 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,360 his house. I went to his house and spent a couple of hours there 120 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,559 on a Saturday morning. He was very generous and he told me a lot 121 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,000 of things I never knew about the Murdocks before, and I think new things 122 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,080 that nobody else will ever hear about. Until the book comes out. He 123 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:41,519 wouldn't commit whether it was suicide or drunkenness, but I think it was suicide. 124 00:09:41,399 --> 00:09:46,799 You were talking about these massive sums of money awarded by Hampton County jurys, 125 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,879 and that really struck me too. As I was reading just the huge 126 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,559 payouts. When all of the reporting was being done on the Murdoch family, 127 00:09:54,840 --> 00:10:01,200 it had come out that Alec was shafting people for this huge amount of money. 128 00:10:01,639 --> 00:10:03,759 I had no idea the extent of it. I was reading your book 129 00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:07,240 and at times, as I'm coming across these figures, my jaw is dropping 130 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:13,399 going I can't believe he embezzled that much money from that many people. I 131 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,399 was really just astounded by that. I had no idea the scope of it. 132 00:10:16,919 --> 00:10:20,279 Was that a surprise to you when you started doing this much research, 133 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:26,000 I didn't realize that you could. He basically stole nearly ten million dollars from 134 00:10:26,039 --> 00:10:33,759 his clients. These are people that were horribly injured or died in car crashes. 135 00:10:33,279 --> 00:10:37,639 He befriended them, a lot of them grew up with Alex. Some 136 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,279 of the people he ripped off actually went to school with Alex and knew him 137 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:46,000 and trusted him. He was president of the South Carolina Association of Justice for 138 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:52,000 three or four years. He was the lawyer in South Carolina for plaintifs. 139 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,759 People trusted him, and he just ripped them off for millions, and he 140 00:10:56,799 --> 00:11:01,039 would look them in their face and smile and take their money. Which was 141 00:11:01,279 --> 00:11:07,360 that came out at trial. He shouldly admitted it. He finally admitted it. 142 00:11:07,399 --> 00:11:11,159 So that he did this, I personally think he's a sociopath. He 143 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,799 has no empathy with anybody, and he would look for you in the eye 144 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,440 and steal the clothes off your back. I didn't know somebody that could exist 145 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:24,519 and be so well respected for so many years before his downfall. It sounds 146 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:30,519 like there's almost two murders. There's this public facing, friendly, as you 147 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,679 said, backslapping guy who is well known and respected in the community, and 148 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:41,600 then with the other side of him, he's reaching around and stealing tens of 149 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:46,200 millions of dollars from his clients, many of whom needed that money as a 150 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,679 result of accidents, injuries, or deaths. What do you make of that? 151 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:54,120 There are I mean, there's a I mean maybe he's a schizophrenic. 152 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,240 There are definitely two sides, and his family also saw the same side. 153 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:03,960 He actually stole one hundred and twenty thousand dollars from his own brother, Randy. 154 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,320 Can you believe that from his own brother he stole it. I think 155 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:13,639 his family really loved him and believed in him. Maybe there's a really dark 156 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:20,399 side deep inside Alex Murdock that nobody ever saw that never came out until all 157 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,320 these things were exposed. But he must be a very deeply strubled man to 158 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,960 be able to live with these two sides going on. Obviously he compartmentalizes a 159 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,519 lot to do it. I've tried to get into a lot of people's minds 160 00:12:33,519 --> 00:12:37,200 for these books, but with Alex Murdock, it was really impossible. I 161 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,679 think is that maybe there's a new medical term for it, but I haven't 162 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,759 found it. There's another person in this book who also has two sides to 163 00:12:46,799 --> 00:12:50,960 his personality, of course, and that is Paul, who turns into Timmy 164 00:12:50,279 --> 00:12:56,679 whenever he drinks alcohol. That part of it was shocking to me as well. 165 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,120 How large a role does the abuse an addiction to alcohol and drugs play 166 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,679 in the Murdock's downfall, do you think, well, hugely, absolutely. 167 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:11,399 For a start, Alex Murdoch admits that he was addicted, heavily addicted to 168 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,120 opioids and we spent thousands of dollars every week on it. And he's also 169 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:22,120 been charged with manufacturing and distributing through a cousin of his, Curtis Smith, 170 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:26,440 who's very involved in the whole story. If you've got somebody on opioids all 171 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,440 the time, that's got to do something to their hair. And the whole 172 00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:35,039 Murdoch family was based on alcohol. Basically. His grandfather was pretty much a 173 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:41,720 bootlegger. This is Buster Murdoch. He was arrested and stood trial for being 174 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:46,000 involved in bootlegging operations in the fifties, but got away with it and resumed 175 00:13:46,039 --> 00:13:50,559 his job as a solicitor. Paul Murdoch the younger, the younger son of 176 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:56,600 Alex and Maggie and his brother Buster. They were both brought up with alcohol. 177 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,799 It was like a part of the family. There was always a cooler 178 00:13:58,799 --> 00:14:03,240 of cold beers when they went hunting, and the kids had free access to 179 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:09,600 it. And I understand from friends that Maggie would proudly joke about how their 180 00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:13,000 little instant sons were drinking. She thought it was fun. So they were 181 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,360 brought up in this kind of childhood of alcohol, and I think Paul became 182 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,759 an alcoholic at a very young age. He'd drink every day, he'd get 183 00:14:22,799 --> 00:14:26,519 out of control, and his friends gave him the nickname Timmy because when he 184 00:14:26,559 --> 00:14:31,840 got drunk, his fingers would stretch out and remain like that, his eyes 185 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:37,519 would get huge, and he'd just be wandering around like a separate person. 186 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:41,440 It was like a jecky and hide thing, and he'd scare people when he 187 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,039 became Timmy, and his friends will say Timmy is out. And basically that 188 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:50,240 was the downfall of the Murdocks when Timmy came out on this boat trip to 189 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:56,360 the Oyster Fest and crashed the boat and killed Mallory Beach, and that's when 190 00:14:56,399 --> 00:15:01,240 everything started. The dominoes started falling with the Murdoch Fan just recently announced a 191 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:07,279 few days ago that there's been a very large settlement in that boat crash, 192 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,759 and it's taken this long for them to get to a place where they arrived 193 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:16,840 at a settlement five years. I think what I understand is is eighteen million 194 00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:22,759 dollar global settlement. It hasn't been announced exactly where the money is going to 195 00:15:22,799 --> 00:15:26,200 who, but I think the beach. Matory's parents are going to get a 196 00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:31,960 huge amount of it. And also Connor took his cousin Anthony, who were 197 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,120 on the boat. Miley Altman, I think she was also on the boat. 198 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,799 Was she not miss his girlfriend? Yeah? I think it was Miley. 199 00:15:39,279 --> 00:15:43,759 No, the other one, oh Morgan Morgan. Yeah. So there 200 00:15:43,799 --> 00:15:48,720 hasn't been announced exactly who's getting what yet, but it seems to be like 201 00:15:48,879 --> 00:15:52,399 the civil part of it is over because it was supposed to go to trialie 202 00:15:52,399 --> 00:15:58,000 in August, with Alex Murdock probably testifying. So now that's not going to 203 00:15:58,039 --> 00:16:00,679 happen. There are so many twists and turns to this story, and one 204 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:07,039 thing I really appreciated about the book is we finally have a timeline, because 205 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,559 when I remember becoming aware of the Murdoch case, it started with Alec being 206 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,960 shot in the head on the side of the road, and then bits and 207 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,080 pieces of the story started coming out from there. It became really hard to 208 00:16:19,159 --> 00:16:23,600 follow. So I appreciated the fact that this book really sets the record straight. 209 00:16:25,159 --> 00:16:27,200 Here's what happened first, then second, then third, and fourth. 210 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:33,600 It really smooth things out for me. Was it difficult to untangle all of 211 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:37,159 the things that had happened and put them in a linear order. Absolutely. 212 00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:38,320 Yeah, I mean it was a real job. With all my books, 213 00:16:38,399 --> 00:16:42,879 I do a timeline, a single space timeline of everything, and this ran 214 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,080 to two hundred and fifty pages. I had. It was a huge timeline 215 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:49,759 because that's the only way you could make sense of it. And my family 216 00:16:49,799 --> 00:16:55,039 need to do a timeline. Certain things that you don't think are related when 217 00:16:55,039 --> 00:16:56,879 you put them in a timeline, that they are, and that's how I 218 00:16:56,919 --> 00:17:00,879 do my books. So I think for the first time, you're going to 219 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:04,640 get the reader will get a clear and concise look at the Murdoch history, 220 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,359 which up to now has been in bits and babs and tangled like the book 221 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,880 tangled vines the story. I think I've hopefully untangled it and made it clear 222 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,480 follow from beginning to end, this story has been so twisted, and of 223 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,039 course their family history is bizarre. This timeline, I think is going to 224 00:17:23,039 --> 00:17:30,480 serve a very valuable function for people understanding how the Murdochs built this fantastic dynasty. 225 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:34,119 But ultimately it collapses under its own way. Yeah, and I think 226 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:40,359 there's no way to understand what happened unless you go back to the Murdoch history, 227 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,640 how they came to Hampton, great grandfather, Randolph Senior started the law 228 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:51,599 business and then became the first solicitor of the five counties of the Low Country, 229 00:17:52,039 --> 00:17:55,799 and how the family tradition went from there. I think that is all 230 00:17:55,920 --> 00:18:00,400 part of it, a very important part of understanding exactly what motivated Alex to 231 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:04,880 do what he did and the horrific murders that he's been found guilty of. 232 00:18:06,319 --> 00:18:10,799 I think it all comes down to the legacy he perceived as a murder being 233 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,079 very special and different than anywhere else. The only comparison I can make is 234 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:21,079 as Sam Cruz, the third Tobby was is like the Kennedys, but without 235 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,359 the publicity and outward glamour. But there was the Kennedy part of it, 236 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:30,440 with the children and everything that rained through the low Country. Okay, so 237 00:18:30,599 --> 00:18:34,920 English teacher question, once you've got your two hundred and fifty page timeline, 238 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,599 how long does it take you to flush out the book after that? Because 239 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,960 I imagine the timeline and getting it all placed in a linear fashion probably takes 240 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,000 a while. How long does it take after that to do the rest of 241 00:18:48,039 --> 00:18:51,720 the process. I'm doing about three months on the timeline, but I've also 242 00:18:51,759 --> 00:18:55,160 got a lot of interviews. I've done the three dozen interviews, I have 243 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,960 to transcribe them and everything. I'm doing my research and printing everything out. 244 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:03,599 So once I got that, I think that was probably near around three and 245 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,119 a half months actually writing. Yeah, probably three and a half months writing 246 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:11,599 it. Then it has to go to my editors at Saint Martin's with their 247 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:15,400 input and make changes there from the first draft. So it's a very long 248 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:21,880 process until you get into the galleys which you have there. Most people allow 249 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:26,920 themselves to be recorded for your interviews, John, Obviously there's a tremendous amount 250 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,240 of detail that you want, and yet you mentioned fear on the part of 251 00:19:30,279 --> 00:19:33,680 some of these people. How do you balance that? Will they let you 252 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:37,359 record? Oh? Yes, I have to tell them I'm recording first of 253 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,960 all. But they're pretty open about that, and if there's something they didn't 254 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,039 want said, they say, turn off the recorder. So I'd let them 255 00:19:45,079 --> 00:19:48,480 do the off the record bit and then turn it back on. One thing 256 00:19:48,559 --> 00:19:53,079 that I was particularly interested in the book is that Alec had a number of 257 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:59,960 co conspirators in this money laundering operation that he was doing, which I hadn't 258 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,000 heard anything about in the reporting. Can you talk to us a little bit 259 00:20:03,039 --> 00:20:07,519 about his buds who helped him out with this money laundering. There was a 260 00:20:07,599 --> 00:20:12,559 lawyer that he was at law school with South Carolina School of Law, Cory 261 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:18,079 Flenning. They were very close. They were very close friends, and in 262 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,319 fact, Corey was in Alex's wedding to Maggie. He was also I think 263 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,160 Paul's godfather. And when a lot of these cases came up, the plaintiff 264 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:33,680 cases, especially the Gloria Satterfield, Alex would use Corey as the main person 265 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:38,519 to do the cases without telling the people how close he was. But that 266 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,400 was the lawyer. So Cory, in fact was charged with a number of 267 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:48,599 crimes. So does that mean that Corey and Alex weren't necessarily as public about 268 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:53,640 their close friendship and alliance. They wouldn't reveal it at all. Nobody knew. 269 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,960 They just said. Alex would just say this is a great experienced lawyer 270 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:03,200 without saying they were the roommates at college and he was the godfather of the 271 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,519 son. The other one was Russell Lafitte, who in fact was president of 272 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:14,200 the Hampton Bank, very close to Alex. In fact, Alex dated his 273 00:21:14,519 --> 00:21:21,319 then before his wife Susie, and in school in the way Hampton's school they 274 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:25,799 dated. They're in the yearbook. They were both very close. Russell Lafitte 275 00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:30,279 would just give him really generous loans from the bank which were paid back late 276 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:36,200 and whatever. And he has actually gone to trial and being found guilty and 277 00:21:36,319 --> 00:21:40,319 is about to be sentenced. But really, I think the whole of Hampton 278 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,000 I was always told there were a lot of other heads that were going to 279 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:48,799 fall in different areas, maybe legal and police, that were aiding and betting 280 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,319 the Murdocks over the years, because it was just it was an old boys 281 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:57,920 club. You're listening to Mind over Murder. Will be right back after this 282 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:07,079 word from our sponge. We're back here at Mind over Murder. And one 283 00:22:07,079 --> 00:22:11,440 of the things about the Murdocks or generations of them, was they knew how 284 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:17,920 to entertain on a lavish scale, and they'd have these kind of hunting parties. 285 00:22:18,559 --> 00:22:22,799 They'd invite the main police chiefs of the different areas, the judges, 286 00:22:23,519 --> 00:22:29,000 people like that, and they socialized with them so they could call in favors 287 00:22:29,039 --> 00:22:33,440 basically, and that's how you know that Low Country worked, and it worked 288 00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:37,920 very successfully. For well over one hundred years. When Alex fell, everybody's 289 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,519 saying, this is the end of that. Things are going to have to 290 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,640 change for the better, just out of curiosity, because I was looking for 291 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,200 it in the book, and I don't think I ever found it. Do 292 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,799 we have a running total on how much money Alec actually laundered from all of 293 00:22:52,839 --> 00:22:56,680 his clients, I think there is. I think it was near around ten 294 00:22:56,799 --> 00:23:00,119 million something with all the different I mean there were or when it came to 295 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,720 trial, there was I think ninety nine or so civil actions against him, 296 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:11,319 federal actions and the South Carolina Attorney General actions. He's got a lot of 297 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,720 court cases pending. And even after he was found guilty of murdering Paul and 298 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:22,359 Maggie, I think twenty five more federal actions came out, So he's facing 299 00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:26,519 I don't know how many years of trials going forward on this. It was 300 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:30,880 hard to keep a running total because every time I did, there was a 301 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:36,000 He'd get charged with more crimes gettingdicted. So it was an ongoing thing, 302 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:40,759 which after I finished the book, continues to this day. It's absolutely crazy. 303 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,680 Now, as we've mentioned enough here, what Bill and I have here 304 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:48,920 the of the events reader copies which don't talk about the trial, but the 305 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,119 trial is included in the version of the book that is releasing in August. 306 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:57,160 Correct, the copies you've got we came out were printed before the trial. 307 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:03,440 But I covered the trial. I called him most of it, took careful 308 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:07,240 notes, so I've added like two or three chapters on the end of the 309 00:24:07,279 --> 00:24:11,160 book, which really makes it complete. Covering the whole trial and the dramatics 310 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:18,640 of it were just quite amazing. Nobody dreamed that Alex Murder would actually take 311 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,519 the stand in his own defense. In fact, his lawyers did not want 312 00:24:22,599 --> 00:24:26,480 him to, but against their wishes, he was so arrogant, so much 313 00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:30,599 hubris, that he actually took the stand for almost two days. I think 314 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,079 he thought he could persuade the jury, he could look them in the eyes 315 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,400 like he did in so many plaintive cases successfully and sway them over to finding 316 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:44,839 him not guilty. But that didn't work. What was your perception sitting there 317 00:24:45,279 --> 00:24:49,720 watching him testify? Was the inner monologue in your head saying, I can't 318 00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:53,160 believe he's doing this, or what were you thinking? Yeah, I couldn't 319 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,279 believe it. I just thought this is the worst possible thing. He could 320 00:24:56,319 --> 00:25:00,759 have done. I think up to that point many peop including myself, thought 321 00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:06,240 that it might be a hung jury, because this was in Collinson County Court 322 00:25:06,559 --> 00:25:11,000 where the Murdock's practiced Alex cases. In fact, the interesting thing is that 323 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,640 his own grandfather, Buster Murdock, had his portrait at the back of the 324 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:21,640 court, and the judge ordered it taken down before the trials started because it 325 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,119 would have been unfair to the state. So I watched, I watched Alex, 326 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:30,480 and I just thought, this is he's dammy himself because it could have 327 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,400 been a hung jury. They all it needed was one jura to find not 328 00:25:33,519 --> 00:25:37,640 guilty and he would have gone free or there would have been a retrial. 329 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,559 But it was unanimous and incredibly, in just three hours they came back and 330 00:25:42,599 --> 00:25:48,640 found him guilty of all charges. I was really surprised that nobody filed for 331 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,680 a change of venue. Was that ever, you know, was that ever 332 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,880 even a possibility or were they just going to try it right there in the 333 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,759 same place where his grandfather's portrait was. Yeah, I thought there might be 334 00:25:59,799 --> 00:26:03,440 a change of venue, But I think Alex Murder wanted it tried there because 335 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,119 he thought he might get the equivalents of a Habiton jury. Because Collinson County 336 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,920 is right next door, he thought they'd be sympathetic. But anyway, they 337 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,440 decided to go with Collinson County, and obviously for justice a good decision, 338 00:26:15,799 --> 00:26:22,880 this track record that he had and his law firm had to win these massive 339 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:29,119 judgments. Do you think money may have changed hands after the fact with key 340 00:26:29,319 --> 00:26:33,160 jurors in some of those cases. If he's stealing money all over the place, 341 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:38,079 he's not going to stop necessarily at the ethical boundary. Oh, I 342 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:44,279 couldn't possibly bribe members of the jury or after the fact. Yeah. I 343 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:48,839 can't speak for some of the other cases, but I do know from one 344 00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:55,119 of a librarian I spoke to interviewed her husband was in fact sitting on a 345 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,880 jury and it was a very interesting, I think early nineties case when mahar 346 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:03,920 Mid Ali's doctor, Muhammad Ali, was suffering from cancer and he had this 347 00:27:04,039 --> 00:27:08,880 doctor he totally believed in, and the doctor was getting sued as a quack 348 00:27:10,039 --> 00:27:15,559 basically Hampton County court for about twenty million dollars. The trial went on with 349 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:22,240 the jury, Muhammad Ali was actually called He came and testified in Hampton County 350 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:27,039 at one of the days of trial. But I interviewed the librarian's husband he 351 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,599 was serving on the jury, and he basically said that it was going on 352 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:36,079 past the money. They would pay per diem rate to the jurors, so 353 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,920 they weren't going to get paid because they weren't getting paid by their jobs. 354 00:27:40,279 --> 00:27:45,160 Alex Murdoch, he said his company were very generous with the jurors. They 355 00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:49,160 kept paying the money even when they wouldn't have got paid or declared a mistrial. 356 00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:52,880 So I won't say there were huge amounts of money being paid. But 357 00:27:53,160 --> 00:28:00,559 another interesting thing is that I heard that his father, Alex's father, Randy 358 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,839 Murdoch, would often boast and say, oh, we had to pay off 359 00:28:03,839 --> 00:28:07,720 a few durors today, very tongue in cheap and nobody knows whether you were 360 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:14,480 serious or not. So it's a closely guarded secret whether they were doing anything 361 00:28:14,599 --> 00:28:19,079 the farious like that. Unbelievable. Can you go back over and again this 362 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,039 You weren't able to get into this in the advanced reader copies that we have 363 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,920 that I know it's in the I know it's in the upcoming release book. 364 00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:33,039 Can you go over the evidence that eventually allowed investigators to conclude that Alec did 365 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:36,960 in fact murder Maggie and Paul, Like, what was this smoking gun in 366 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:38,839 this case? If I can be so glib to say that, Yeah, 367 00:28:40,039 --> 00:28:45,440 right after the night Maggie Paul were murdered right by the dog kennels. Alex 368 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:49,319 Murdoch's story was that, in fact, his son and wife had gone to 369 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:55,559 the dog kennels. I think after dinner around six o'clock, he'd had a 370 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,599 nap, he'd be watching TV. He hadn't seen them until the murders, 371 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:03,400 which I think we're around the closet to ten o'clock that night. He hadn't 372 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,400 seen them at all. He'd gone to visit his aily mother who was very 373 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:15,279 sick with Alzheimer's, and then come back to discover them dead. Amazingly enough, 374 00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:19,759 when they took all the evidence, they took Paul's iPhone and they couldn't 375 00:29:19,759 --> 00:29:25,319 break it down and they couldn't get into his password for more than a year. 376 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:30,079 I think the state police sled tried FBI, and eventually it took a 377 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,279 year to get into his iPhone, which came out a trial with something to 378 00:29:34,319 --> 00:29:37,680 do with his birthday, which baffled me why it would have taken so long. 379 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,839 But more than a year later they got into it and they discovered a 380 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:48,440 Snapchat video that Paul had taken minutes before his murder when he was in the 381 00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:52,119 kennels and he was sending it to one of his good friends. Paul was 382 00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:56,079 looking after his dog that was sick, and he was taking videos of the 383 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,799 dog telling his friend how it was doing. And in the video you can 384 00:30:00,839 --> 00:30:07,440 distinctly hear Alex's voice saying something like Bubba, which was the dog had come 385 00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,160 in with a chicken and going Bubba. And there's one line where you can 386 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,680 hear Alex's voice saying that, which proved he was actually in the kennels with 387 00:30:15,799 --> 00:30:21,079 Maggie and Paul literally two or three minutes before the actual murder. Now, 388 00:30:21,119 --> 00:30:25,720 this came out very dramatically at trial. Nobody had an idea about this before, 389 00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:30,559 and this was the smoking gun. Witness after witness that knew Alex murder 390 00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:36,759 for years. Friends, they all like they were played this tape, which 391 00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:41,200 was like a thirty second tape. It was pretty short with Alex's voice. 392 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,839 They all testified that was Alex's voice. He had no leg to stand on 393 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:48,720 when he came up in the witness stand. He had changed his stories to 394 00:30:48,799 --> 00:30:52,839 try and make allowances for this, but I don't think the jury would have 395 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,359 bought it. And one of the most dramatic things was that the summing up 396 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:03,640 the prosecutor created Waters said, actually that was Paul speaking from the grave, 397 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:11,119 because Paul was called the little detective because right before the murder it was shown 398 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:17,359 that Paul was looking into Alex's case and finding all his opioids, and the 399 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,599 mother had found it, and they were doing checks on alex drug use and 400 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,039 they called him the little Maggie called him the little detective. So it closing 401 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,200 Creyton Waters, I think, said this is the little detective from the grave, 402 00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:34,000 exposing what his father did. That was to me was so dramatic and 403 00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:38,039 intense, and if there was a smoking gun, that was it. And 404 00:31:38,119 --> 00:31:44,559 without that Paul's few second tape with Alex's voice on, I'm sure he wouldn't 405 00:31:44,599 --> 00:31:48,400 be in jail right now for murder. I think he would have walked free. 406 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:53,400 That one bit of recording with Alex's voice in the background took all the 407 00:31:53,599 --> 00:31:59,960 air out of his false story that he was visiting his mother, which would 408 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:05,680 have taken him elsewhere, and substantially a number of miles away from the location 409 00:32:06,039 --> 00:32:09,720 where the murders took place at the Hunt Club. He was obviously he's committed 410 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,200 the murders. And then he got in his car to visit his mother, 411 00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:17,559 biding these rural, thin, rural country roads which I know I drove them. 412 00:32:17,559 --> 00:32:21,559 They scared the head out of me when I was in Hampton, and 413 00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:24,640 he drove to his mother's house at speeds reaching up to eighty miles an hour. 414 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:30,039 The caregiver, you know, testified that Alex came there and he was 415 00:32:30,079 --> 00:32:32,599 holding something. She didn't know what it was, and he didn't. He 416 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,240 sat with his mother on the bed for a few minutes, then he got 417 00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:40,680 up and left, drove back and that's when he drove straight to the kennels 418 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,480 and dull nine to one one and called the police. That take from Paul's 419 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:50,640 iPhone, I think just destroyed his whole alibi. And there was I felt 420 00:32:50,799 --> 00:32:55,039 sorry almost for the defense because there wasn't much they could do. What if 421 00:32:55,079 --> 00:33:01,240 anything is happening with regard to the death of Stephen Smith and Gloria Sadderfield, 422 00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:06,720 Are you aware of anything new that's happening there? Well, the Gloria Satterfield. 423 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:10,799 This is the Murdock housekeeper that supposedly in two I think it was twenty 424 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:15,880 fifteen. Oh, no, I think it was two nineteen had tripped that 425 00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:22,839 you'd gone up to Mozelle, tripped down the stairs and suffered a faithful head 426 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,519 injury, and Alex took responsibility saying that dogs had tripped her and then managed 427 00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:32,480 to get like a I think four or five million dollar payout to the Sun's 428 00:33:32,559 --> 00:33:37,240 which never went to them, went to Alex's bank account. When this all 429 00:33:37,279 --> 00:33:42,599 came out, her body was exhumed and we still haven't heard the post. 430 00:33:42,839 --> 00:33:46,480 We still haven't heard autopsy results. That's still pending. But with Stephen Smith, 431 00:33:46,839 --> 00:33:52,000 that has been since the trial. There was a lot of Stephen Smith 432 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:59,279 was actually in Wadehampton class with Buster murder. They were in the same class, 433 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,680 and there was a lot of rumors unsubstantiated that Stephen, who was openly 434 00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:08,480 gay, had some kind of relationship with Buster. In twenty fifteen, he 435 00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:14,599 was mysteriously found in the middle of the road run over. Supposedly even the 436 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,199 highway patrol police were convinced it was murder, but it was supposedly hushed up 437 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,119 through the Murdochs. That's been reopened again, and I understand there's a grand 438 00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:29,320 jury right now convening on what action they're going to take and if anyone's going 439 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,000 to be charged in it. So that's an open case, as is Gloria 440 00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:37,519 Satterfield. You know, it's fascinating. So there is a strong possibility that 441 00:34:37,559 --> 00:34:42,840 there may be further developments in both the Stephen Smith and Gloria Sadterfield cases. 442 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,320 I would best on it. Yes, whether Murdoch or not, I do 443 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:51,840 not know. There's other names that have been levied about that one. Yeah, 444 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,679 I was about to ask, what do you think the chances are that 445 00:34:53,960 --> 00:35:00,400 Buster Murdoch comes out of this completely unscathed. I have no idea, to 446 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,559 be honest. Watching the child, I felt sorry for Buster. He lost 447 00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:08,159 his mother and his younger brother and his father's being convicted of their murder. 448 00:35:08,199 --> 00:35:12,280 You hear some of these phone calls. One of the things in the book 449 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:20,400 I got access through another reporter by the freedom of information request for Alex's gelhouse 450 00:35:20,519 --> 00:35:24,199 calls when he was first arrested, and I managed to I got access to 451 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,599 more than two hundred of them, which I painstakingly went through, and there's 452 00:35:29,639 --> 00:35:34,239 a lot of conversations between him and Buster, who you can see he's manipulating 453 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,239 the whole time. One of the most amazing things I found. You asked 454 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:40,800 me earlier, what did you find in the book? Was that behind bars? 455 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:47,079 I think for the second anniversary of Paul's death, Buster organized a birthday 456 00:35:47,199 --> 00:35:53,679 party for all Paul's friends in Charleston at a bath through their lawyer and young 457 00:35:53,760 --> 00:36:00,119 Buster. This was Alex organizing this party on Paul's birthday. Whenever it came 458 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:05,880 up to Mother's Day or something like that, he would urge Buster to put 459 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,480 flowers on Maggie and Paul's grave and keep reminding them and everything. He was 460 00:36:09,519 --> 00:36:15,880 a master manipulator. But you can hear in his calls how fraught Buster sounds 461 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,800 as things progressed and more and more comes out. So who knows what the 462 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,559 real relationship is. But Buster is a murder and I'm sure he feels like 463 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:30,159 a family closing rank. So even if he believes that his father is guilty 464 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,960 of the murders he's been found guilty of. And there's a possibility, as 465 00:36:35,039 --> 00:36:38,719 has been mentioned elsewhere, that Buster and perhaps some of his friends may be 466 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:44,960 involved in the murder of Stephen Smith. I'm saying that was basically rumors. 467 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,880 I interviewed Stephen's twin sister, Stephanie and her mother Sandy. I went to 468 00:36:50,079 --> 00:36:53,719 a fundraiser That's when I came to meet with them, and Stephanie says that 469 00:36:53,800 --> 00:37:00,920 Stephen confided that he was having a fling with some very high powered young man 470 00:37:01,039 --> 00:37:06,880 in Hampson, which she assumed was Buster. There was also talk right after 471 00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:12,039 Stephen Smith was found dead, the rumor will went into overdrive that somehow Buster 472 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,320 was involved. To be honest to Buster, this has never been substantiated and 473 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,280 it remains rumors at the moment, and I wouldn't want to bet how that 474 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,519 would turn out. It looked at the end of the book that Buster is 475 00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:29,480 not planning unfollowing in his father's footsteps, because there was a portion of a 476 00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:32,000 phone call where Alec was encouraging him to go back to law school and Buster 477 00:37:32,159 --> 00:37:36,800 was hemming and high in on that is he going to be? I would 478 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,119 say the murder to break the cycle? Do you think I reckon? So 479 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:46,840 Buster was expelled from South Carolina Law School, where Alex his grandfather Randy, 480 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:53,960 great great grandfather Buster and great great grandfather rand Of Senior they all went to 481 00:37:54,039 --> 00:38:00,760 law school. Buster was rather remomably expelled for supposedly plagiarism. From the phone 482 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:06,480 calls, you can see that Alex paid some very big wheels in the South 483 00:38:06,519 --> 00:38:12,559 Carolina legal profession about sixty thousand dollars to try and get Buster reinstated. And 484 00:38:12,639 --> 00:38:15,920 during the phone calls, he's nagging Buster, have you followed up with the 485 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,599 dean? Have you done this? And Buster sounds very disinterested. In the 486 00:38:20,599 --> 00:38:24,000 meantime, Buster has I know he's got a job for the corporate office. 487 00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:30,239 I think it's called Wild Wings. It was a chain franchise food place that 488 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:35,079 he's working for there. And he seems disinterested in the lord at the moment, 489 00:38:35,159 --> 00:38:38,239 and I can't see he's with what's happened. He could possibly get back 490 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:43,320 into law school, So I think that's the end of the chain, although 491 00:38:43,599 --> 00:38:47,800 maybe other Murdocks may become lawyers in next the generation, next generation. It 492 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,360 does sound a lot like the Kennedy family, now that you've made the comparison, 493 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,599 I can't unsee it. Absolutely, Yep, it totally does. The 494 00:38:55,639 --> 00:39:00,840 whole thing makes me shudder because it sounds like there's been eruption at its highest 495 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:07,239 and lowest level going on there for over one hundred years, at over one 496 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,159 hundred yes, and they got away with it. The Murdochs were the law. 497 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:15,400 Basically, they were the police. They were everything in those five counties, 498 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:21,639 which is a huge area extending to Beaufort, and they really ruled the 499 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,880 roost and they could get away with anything. Interestingly enough, it came out 500 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:30,800 at trial that when Paul crashed the boat, they went to the hospital and 501 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:37,239 very soon afterwards Alex Murdoch and his father Randy turned up to try and control 502 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,920 the situation. Alex walked in and he was an assistant solicitor. He had 503 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,480 a gift badge. He pulled out his badge and he put it round his 504 00:39:45,599 --> 00:39:49,760 neck when he walked into that hospital to try and get people to shut up. 505 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,280 We're lawyering up. They're not saying anything. And he tried to stop 506 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:58,880 any of the five other teenagers, four other teenagers talking to any of the 507 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,639 police or any when he tried to put a hold on it. That just 508 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:07,639 shows the corruption there. You had used the word hubris a while back to 509 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:13,880 describe Alec, and I feel like that really is the best descriptor for him. 510 00:40:14,519 --> 00:40:20,199 This feels almost like a Greek tragedy in a way, except I'm glad 511 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,480 for the murder downfall. I'm not going to lie about that. But this 512 00:40:22,559 --> 00:40:27,639 definitely has the feeling of you fly too close to the sun and look what 513 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,519 happens. Right, And as arrogance and hubris and the generations before Alex, 514 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:37,320 they knew how to work that, they knew how to control the whole area, 515 00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:42,440 but they weren't so public about it. They drove normal kind of cars, 516 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,119 they didn't flaunt their worth. And I spoke to people that are very 517 00:40:45,119 --> 00:40:49,599 close to the murders and they say that Alex, this was the first time 518 00:40:50,039 --> 00:40:53,480 Maggie was a social media you know nuts. She would get on Facebook and 519 00:40:53,519 --> 00:40:59,159 she would post pictures of them all in their private planes, flying off to 520 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:05,079 these various venues, hunting and fishing and just putting in everybody's face. And 521 00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:08,920 I think if they kept a lower profile like their ancestors, this might never 522 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,679 have happened. Too close to the sun. It feels like, you know, 523 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,760 the sins of the father, and then the story you mentioned about Maggie 524 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:24,440 the mother being so amused by Paul and Busters drinking and hijinks when they were 525 00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:31,119 teenagers. Ultimately that also led to their downfall because the whole boat crash and 526 00:41:31,199 --> 00:41:37,360 the appearance of Timmy the alter ego. It's all there, and these are 527 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:44,679 all patterns and self destructive behaviors that started back when they were still under the 528 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,760 control of their parents. Absolutely, and I think it started even further back 529 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:53,880 than that. I go into Alex's childhood and especially when he was at the 530 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:59,880 University of South Carolina. He got into a lot of hijinks, drunken fight, 531 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:04,679 strip clubs with his friends and brules and whatever, and they were always 532 00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:07,639 swept under the carpet as soon as they realized he was the solicitor's son, 533 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:14,440 they would drive him home and no questions asked. So it goes back generations, 534 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:19,800 but Alex really took it to the next stage with being so public about 535 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,199 it, on flaunting his wealth. It's an absolutely amazing book. John. 536 00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:27,440 I know you said you were taking this summer off. What is next in 537 00:42:27,519 --> 00:42:30,440 terms of projects. I'm being a little close lips about this at the moment, 538 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,320 but there's a few things I'm looking into at the moment. You know, 539 00:42:35,039 --> 00:42:37,519 fantastic. We definitely want to have you back whenever you've got another book 540 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:44,880 ready for publication. The book is Tangled Vines. It comes out August eighth, 541 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,119 with author John Glutt. Thank you very much for having me. It's 542 00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:52,480 been a pleasure. As always, John, we really appreciate you taking the 543 00:42:52,559 --> 00:42:55,519 time. Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Mind of a Murder. 544 00:42:57,199 --> 00:43:09,679 We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute 545 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:15,960 Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 546 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:21,840 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin 547 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:27,760 McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. You 548 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,960 can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow 549 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:36,639 our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook and finally, you can follow 550 00:43:36,679 --> 00:43:40,880 Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to 551 00:43:42,119 --> 00:44:00,519 mind Over Murder. Cont