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Hello, and welcome to this end
of year episode of Superhero Ethics Friends.

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This is just about the end of
twenty twenty three and Paul Hoppy has joined

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me to talk about a year in
review. This isn't Star Wars, so

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it's a lot harder to talk about
just the year in review for this podcast

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since we've pretty much branched out from
superhero movies to include sci fi, fantasy,

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chess, karate books, video games. But so I think it's more

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less got be about what were themes
that were explored in media this year,

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as what were the themes that we
kept seeing popping up and that we were

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kind of drawing a lot of and
kind of reviewing, Like you know,

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so I think a lot of it
is going to be about the media of

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this year, but especially with the
strike, there was a lot of attention

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to media from other years. And
the funny thing is Paul messaged me a

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couple of days ago as we were
planning for this and said, you know,

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hey, have you watched Blue Beetle
yet? And I hadn't. I've

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forgotten that it had been that had
come out. It was one of a

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number of movies that I didn't see
because it came out during the strike,

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and that's what we're going to talk
about a good deal today. But so

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as part of that, and Paul
mentioned that, you know, I didn't

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have to watch it, but it
was gonna be relevant to a lot of

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topics he wanted to talk about,
and I then watched the movie and realized

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that I was really relevant to a
lot of things I wanted to talk about.

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And so we're gonna kind of use
that movie as a framing device to

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talk about big issues from twenty twenty
three, particularly because one of the major

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things that I really put together this
year that has always been a theme,

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but I really have kind of started
to narrow in on as a major theme

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in the media I'm interested in is
almost completely not a part of Blue Beetle.

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So even though it's sort of like
everything goes to either zero or one

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hundred, so there could be a
lot of fun to talk about. You

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do not have to have seen Blue
Beatle to understand all this, but we

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will be giving you whilers from that. So if that's a deal breaker,

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I would check it out. It's
on Max. Yeah, it's on Max.

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Probably lots of other ways to get
it. It is a it's a

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movie, and we're not gonna make
this review podcast, but I'm I'm just

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gonna say this about it. The
best way I think to understand it is

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that they wanted to do, you
know, what's kind of been being done

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a lot of let's take your standard
superhero template and then put it into a

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different context, in this case the
context of in this case the context of

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the young Latino man and his family
who are all Mexican immigrants. And I

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think they did a fantastic job of
creating characters of really I mean, I'm

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not that latine, but like building
that whole world in such phenomenal interesting ways.

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Every family member is well developed,
and just the themes of family are

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so well done, and there's a
lot of other things that they cover so

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well, and I think they put
so much time and effort into that that

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they forgot to write a superhero movie, and so they just rely on every

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trope you can see, and so
the superhero aspects of it are completely predictable

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in ways that I think would have
made it a really bad movie if it

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weren't just so gosh darn fun to
watch, and I wasn't being so blown

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away by how much. I loved
all the characters. Paul, would you

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say that's an accurate description of pretty
much? Yeah, I would say it's

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like a stencil, right, Like
they have like a superhero movie stencil,

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and then within you know, they
kind of like put their outline with that,

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just with the pen within the stencil, and then like within that stenciled

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outline they put a bunch of characters
who I don't feel the characters themselves were

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very well developed by the writing.
I feel like just the actors, just

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pretty much every one of the actors
except maybe for Susan Sarandon, like I

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felt, actually brought a lot to
those characters that like wasn't necessarily in the

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script. Like I was thinking of
checking, like should I see whether this

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was written during the writers straight and
like, no, it wasn't. It

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wasn't. It was done. But
and I don't mean that so much as

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an insult to the writer, but
like it just it feels like it really

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feels like the cast brought a lot, you know, and they kind of

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had to, but I'm glad they
did, you know. Yeah, And

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and so I feel like it works
even though the story is like the funny

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thing though, is for me like
a lot of the movies that I was

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going to talk about, and a
lot of things that I've been experienced that

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I've been experiencing as like a viewer
in the relatively limited amount of stuff that

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I've watched this year. A lot
of it the plot. I'm just like,

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yeah, I liked the movie,
except the plot just wasn't doing anything

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for me. Yeah. And this
includes like, you know, you know,

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movies that are basically deemed great,
like everything everywhere all at once,

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where I was like, could could
we just like watch them at the business

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more instead of like have this whole
multiverse thing, and like across the Spider

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Verse, whereas like can we just
like hang out at the you know,

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at the cookout instead of like always
you know, be doing all this multiverse

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stuff, and and Loki whereas like
can we just hang out with the characters

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instead of doing all this multiverse?
The thing about the Blue Beetles, there

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was no multiverse, so that was
nice. It was no multiverse that time

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travel, you know, I was
like, Oh, it's nice to see

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the Superhero story where it's like it
really is just like that original stencil,

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not the newer stencil that has the
multiverse and a bunch of stuff that that's

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also very true. That's also very
true. Yeah, I think one of

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thing I was thinking about as you
were saying that is I kind of feel

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like there's two ways to approach this. There's the we want to make a

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superhero movie, and so we're gonna
use that as a way to like,

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we're gonna by setting it in a
new context, whether that's like a new

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background for the character or a new
time or a new place, we're gonna

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make an interesting statement about superhero movies. Where I felt like this was actually

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like, let's just tell in a
movie about a really interesting family and family

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dynamics in the midst of difficult things. Oh hey, someone will give us

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hundreds of millions of dollars if we
make it a superhero movie. Sure,

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let's do that. No, because
this felt very much like someone was like,

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what if we did in conto live
action without the music, but with

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more super you know, and very
much of that kind of a way.

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So I'm going to take a guess
and we'll mention details from the movie,

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but I think we're kind of,
you know, let's kind of get into

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some of the overall themes. One
thing I know that you have talked about

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a lot this year is language and
the way that language is used in telling

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in telling stories, particularly in like
not spoon fitting things as much to white

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audiences, to American audience as always
in English. I thought the movie did

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some really interesting things with language,
and so I'm guessing that was one of

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the things that they hit for you. Yeah, that was one of the

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things that you know, made interested
in the movie in the first place,

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right, Like I might have watched
it anyway, you know, like I

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I watched Black Adam and Shazam six
or I guess it's only two, but

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it feels and you know, and
and the flash and you know, various

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speaking and multi verses. I left
that one out of the list. But

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yeah, but having having you know, a lot of Spanish in the movie

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and and like Spanglish, like as
you know, they've actually referred to it

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that way, right, because you
know, and code switching and whatever,

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right, And it felt to me
very natural. A lot of times Hollywood

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movies do stuff like that with with
bilingual characters or or even like just like

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non English speaking characters, and it
feels very forced, It feels very artificial.

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Here, it felt natural to me, you know, and I think

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I think they made an effort with
that, and I think that's a front

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that they largely succeeded on. You
know. I liked that, you know,

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his family members kind of had like
different nicknames for him, you know,

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like I think his dad like called
him Flacco and like his uncle called

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him like Gabi son, and like
like, you know, it just it

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felt pretty natural. It didn't feel
like where just like they kind of inserted

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the random you know, Spanish like
someone like looks something up in a dictionary,

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you know, like it. And
I mean, I'm not super fluent

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in Spanish. I'd say I'm like
borderline like in terms of like understanding,

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but just it it did feel feel
natural to me, and it felt like

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it was not used as a device
so much as it was kind of at

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the heart of the movie really you
know, the language and you know,

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I mean I mentioned I think some
of the dialogue in English actually wasn't so

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great. I don't think that's like
a slight at the writer's or writers's English

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skills. It's more just the you
know, sometimes movie lines are just a

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little a little cheesy. It's funny, Like I rewatched La Confidential, which

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I think is one of the greatest
movies of all time, and you know,

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one best adapted screenplay, and there's
a few lines that kind of I'm

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like, maybe you could have written
a different line there not or whatever,

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but like, you know, yeah, I think people say awkward things all

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the time, true, and so
I don't like, it's fun to have

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a movie where everyone speaks in quotable, awesome dialogue, but I don't mind

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awkward characters saying awkward things. In
this it was that the dialogue was so

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predictable, right, Like I was
often I'm able to predict a plot point.

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Hero was able to predict lines word
for word. Yeah, but yeah,

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you're right. But the what they
did with language, first of all,

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because when there are long sentences in
Spanish or in other languages, which

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I'll get to in a second,
because Spanish is not the only language featured,

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and that's I think a really important
point. But in longer sentences they

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would translate. But when it's just
like a phrase, none of the nicknames

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that you mentioned there's ever a translation
given. Some of them. I knew,

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some of them, I guessed from
contact, And I have no idea

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what they mean. And I think
that's better, you know, like a

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lot of people said myself included that
were one of the great things about Across

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the Spider the into the Spider Verse, and then across the Spider Verse is

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that when his mother speaks to him
in Spanish, it's not translated, but

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you often can really get a sense
of what she's saying. I think that

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was true here, and yeah,
to me, I think it wasn't.

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It wasn't about, hey, look
we're doing multilingual. It was like,

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no, we're just getting a picture
inside this person's family and how they would

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speak. The other language. Stuff
they do is there's another character who is

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so their whole family is Spanish and
specifically Mexican, and they make a point

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of mentioning without a hitting you overhead
with it, but that some of the

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family members are documented and some are
not. There's another character who is Portuguese,

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who is Brazilian. Yeah, and
you can kind of see her like

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she never interacts directly when the family
is speaking Spanish, but like they they

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cut to her face a couple of
times and see her kind of like following

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but struggling to follow a little bit. Yeah, which I have a number

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of Brazilian friends now through the Judge
program, and that's that's experience. They've

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often talked about it. I think
some of them know Spanish fluently because they've

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studied it. Others, like the
two languages are close enough, and she

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does at one point, you know, when she has her like epic line

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to the villain, she delivers it
in Portuguese, which I had subtitles on,

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which told me that I don't know
if I would have known it necessarily

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think Io had heard the difference between
Spanish. And then lastly, there's one

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other character who we don't get much
of his background until the very end,

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but we learned that he was a
Guatemala he's Guatemalan and specifically that he's native,

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he's part of the indigenous people of
Guatemala, and that he was taken.

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And the movie does not pull any
punches. We have a lot of

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superheroes he's made and that like the
whole idea is that like he was taken

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as part of like the horrible things
the American government was doing in Central America

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at the time of you know,
Reagan and the like, and like they

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have a like you hear Reagan's actual
voice, so it's like very clear what's

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going on. There's also a character
who I think the implication is that she

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ran with Chay or she was part
of like number of you know, human

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revolutions, you know, Spanish,
uh, Latin American Civil War, Latin

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American revolutionary movements at some point in
the past. Phenomenal. But yeah,

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but just the like I was brought
to tears by just the getting to hear

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this character kind of reconnect with his
culture and his language and and speak in

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a movie that had been so much
about Spanish. It felt really powerful to

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me of saying like, oh,
yeah, I'm also here are other people

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in like the geographic area not all
Latin American because port Brazil is not Latin

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American. Uh well, yeah,
yeah it is, just it is colonized

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by people from the Iberian Peninsula.
I've heard speak a Latin language, so

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right, it's yeah, it's it's
Portuguese speaking. Is the Brazilians, I

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know, get very offended if I
call it if they're referred to with Latin

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Americans. But I have no idea
if that's universal. But but yeah,

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but but but that being a different
language, and also the Guatemalan uh and

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then and specificly being the native being
a different language. It just it it

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really kind of summed up I think
a theme that was constant in a lot

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of the stuff we talked about this
year of people getting to speak in their

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own language, and that was everything
from you know, some of the earlier

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stuff we talked about where where it
was literally about language, but also just

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I feel like we've talked a lot
about like characters getting characters in stories getting

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to find their voices, but also
on more of a meta level, characters

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from backgrounds that are often like the
objects of people's stories getting to find their

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voices and be the subject of stories. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

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And and you know, writers basically
getting to express themselves in you know,

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in multiple languages in you know,
in in like in natural ways that when

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somebody who that's not like when you're
doing this with language, right when you're

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trying to write in multiple languages.
And there's something that I'm attempted to be

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cond just of myself as someone who
grew up speaking one language, you know,

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surrounded by like all the languages in
New York, you know, and

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acquiring to various degrees a number of
language languages throughout the years, but like

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as an adult really mostly I think
writing there's there's like a difference between trying

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to learn some words to put them
in a story and like really speaking a

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language and trying to include that in
your story. And I think one of

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the beautiful things about film as a
medium, and I know, Everything Everywhere,

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All at Once came out not this
year, right, but the Oscars

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were this year, right, it
won like all the Oscars this year.

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One of the things that I think
is beautiful about film as a medium is

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that you know the writers, even
the one of them. I think one

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of them is Chinese American. I
think I could be wrong, but but

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like doesn't really speak I think was
quoted as saying like obviously we don't speak

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Chinese or something like that. But
they say one of the writers of everything

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Everywhere at wants or of everything everywhere
all at once. But that the cast.

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You know that when you have a
number of Chinese speaking actors, they

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can basically be like no, no, no, that's not how they would

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say. They would say this,
you know, or they and they did

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that, I believe in the production
of that movie, and kind of just

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naturally we're like, oh well,
well, this character would speak Mandarin,

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and this character would speak Cantonese,
and so this character would speak Mandarin to

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her husband and Cantonese to her father, and like that fits with the characters.

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And in I don't think in the
subtitles they told you whether it was

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Cantonese or Mandarin, you know,
And I think that was something you kind

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of like had to just pick up
on. But it for me, it

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feels like it really works when because
you write a screenplay for a movie,

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and that's not like the list of
all the lines of dialogue that gets spoken,

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right, that's not really how how
screened, how how film production works.

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In television it can be more like
that a lot of the times where

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they basically just shoot the script.
But in in in what's it called in

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uh in films, very often there
will be a lot of alteration to those

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ye two to the script right during
the during the process of filming, and

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a lot of times the and this
can happen in television obviously, but I

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think it's more prevalent in in filmmaking, where where the the actors can be

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like, oh, you know,
my character I think would actually say this

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this way, and you know,
and that's one of the reasons. It's

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you know, when when you cast
like not like actors who can't speak the

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language of the character and they're kind
of just learning things phonetically or they just

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know a little bit, or actors
who aren't, you know, of whatever

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culture or kind of adjacent to the
culture that a character is, they're not

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going to be able to like supply
that, right. That's it's like it's

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kind of like a like a like
a credibility check or that's not the word

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I want, but like it's like
a check on the you know, does

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this feel right to you? You
know? It's that is is a person

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Like I don't think every single line
of dialogue spoken by a character has to

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be written by a person who has
the exact same background as that character,

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because I mean it's impossible. But
also I just think like there is lots

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of great storytelling to be had in
other directions. Yeah, but the like,

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I think more and more we're coming
to an understanding of a writer writing

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a character whose background they have very
little experience of and who has it sought

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out people with that experience, right, Like, I can really suffer And

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I think it was very clear to
me in the writing of this as well

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as looking down the list of other
things I watched this year, a lot

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of things that I liked most were
ones where you know, it was pretty

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well publicized that like the authors had
either really you know, had the experience

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themselves, or had brought others into
the writing room who had those experiences,

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or you know, whatever it might
be. Yeah, and and you know,

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Blue Beetles an example of you know, the the person's credited with the

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screenplay because you know the writer.
But like the writing of it is a

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complex process and often many you know, many cooks in that kitchen, but

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the you know, the the writer
with the screenplay credit is you know,

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was born in Mexico. You know, Gareth dunnant Alcocer and you know.

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So I think that obviously helps when
you're trying to write a screenplay where most

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of the characters were either born in
Mexico or like I think his sister was

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born in a Mara city. I
think, yeah, I think it's what

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you know, And which I learned
is like in the same way Metropolis and

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Gotham are both like different sides of
New York. This is basically DC's Miami.

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Oh oh, this is Miami.
It looks it looks like Miami,

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but for some reason I thought it
was like la Ish, but it makes

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more sense as as Miami. We
were watching it and I described it as

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a happy I described it as a
happy city of Blade Runner, and then

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someone else described it as cyber pop
cyberpunk, which yeah, I could see

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that. I can see that.
I don't know about super happy when like

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a bunch of just like paramilitary personnel
can just show up at your house and

279
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start shooting the joint up and like
there weren't any cops right like them that

280
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Like, like Blade Runner, every
scene is like dark and weary and rain

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with all the neon and this was
like the sun shining on the neon all

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the time, right right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels like

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a place and that place is kind
of Miami, but yeah, yeah,

284
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for sure. And they actually made
that up for this movie. The character

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originally I think it's from El Paso, and so they wanted to change that

286
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for whatever reason, and kind of
I think they wanted to give him his

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place that's like this is the blue
beetle type place, you know, right,

288
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And the main character HAMI Reeus is
the is the third Blue Beatle,

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00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:33.240
and so they kind of worked in
the original I think both of the original

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two Blue Beatles kind of in the
story, which I thought was kind of

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cool, and I thought that that
kind of worked well. Yeah, yeah,

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no, I really like that,
And just kind of looking over as

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I'm kind of talking to you,
I'm like, I've been looking over some

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of my other podcasts from this year, and yes, seeing this theme of

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like people's voices coming out, and
one particular podcast I will lift up is

296
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what I did. Came out September
twelfth. It's called Blurds and Fandom with

297
00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:07.319
Caged Bishop Costplay. Caged Bishop Costplay
is someone on TikTok primarily he does great,

298
00:22:07.359 --> 00:22:11.400
great stuff, and he talked very
proudly about being a blurd, which,

299
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for those who don't know the term
is a black nerd. You know,

300
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he talks about a lot of the
same stuff that we're talking about from

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his specific perspective as a black man. And I really loved that podcast.

302
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We really got in a lot of
great things, and we actually talked about

303
00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:27.640
the Barbie Movie for a while,
and while we both loved it so much

304
00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:30.160
and different respectives on it, but
that was just kind of one podcast and

305
00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:36.839
wanted to lift up. Another theme
that for me really was kind of brought

306
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:41.720
out by this movie is how much
the strike affected this year. And as

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you said, the Productionist movie I
don't think was affected by the strike at

308
00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:48.319
all, but it did not do
very well. And I think that,

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like the way Hollywood is, a
lot of people are probably taking that as

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like, oh, this isn't an
interesting character. People weren't interested in,

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you know, a Mexican American family. To me, though, I think

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the fact that like none of the
stars could publicize it when it came out,

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Like a lot of movies that came
out during the strike were really hurt

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with their marketing, and you know, I think a lot of folks like

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myself just weren't going to watch any
movies during that time. But also just

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even people who were like you know, I'm talking to both of my partners,

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00:23:17.839 --> 00:23:21.079
neither one of them had they remembered
like seeing trailers for it years ago,

318
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.039
but neither one had realized that they
had come out because there was just

319
00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:26.599
a little publicity about it. And
I I don't know if that's just because

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of the strike or also because DC, Like I what what DC? And

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and that company does right now about
what they publicize and what they don't and

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you know, pulling movies off the
shelf and stuff. I have no idea,

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but I really think this was a
movie that was hurt by And when

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I say I'm blaming the strike one
hundred blaming the studios, to be clear,

325
00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:48.720
like I'm one hundred percent pro union, I'm pretty sure Paul is as

326
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:55.480
well. Actually, well, no, that was the whole thing that never

327
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Yeah, yeah, I mean continue
your thought that is, I'd like to

328
00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:03.200
put a pin in that one.
Yeah, sure, for sure. But

329
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:06.440
my point being that just I don't
want to think I'm like being like,

330
00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:11.200
oh God, damn those actors or
writers who who caused this? But I

331
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.960
do think that I want more people
to give this movie attention. And it

332
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:18.400
just for me brings up how much
the strike was a theme, both in

333
00:24:18.480 --> 00:24:22.440
terms of we did a great episode
on labor stuff where you and I talked

334
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:26.279
back and forth and we did disagree
on a lot of stuff, agreed on

335
00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.759
a lot of things as well,
and also that just how much the strike

336
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:34.079
wound up affecting this podcast because we
spent probably like four or five months looking

337
00:24:34.200 --> 00:24:41.319
for content outside of the Hollywood system, and I'll talk more about that because

338
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I think that like we did some
great content on individual things, but also

339
00:24:44.920 --> 00:24:47.880
it was just fantastic to really like
be like, hey, there's lots of

340
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:49.680
great content being made outside of Hollywood, and we should talk more about that.

341
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:53.319
But yeah, if you want to
put your pin in the union comment.

342
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:59.720
Yeah. So just to address the
last thing, I one thing I

343
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really enjoyed as a consequence of the
strike was the like the reminder, the

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00:25:07.319 --> 00:25:14.599
like very important reminder that like,
Hollywood is not all of filmmaking, right,

345
00:25:14.759 --> 00:25:21.759
that that filmmaking, you know,
both both you know, cinema and

346
00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:27.599
television extend beyond Hollywood, and that
there's tons of great stuff that you can

347
00:25:27.640 --> 00:25:33.160
watch from all different places in the
world, and you know, and that

348
00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.079
that's not you know, you might
have a distributor that in within the United

349
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:42.200
States which is involved with Hollywood,
right, but but that if you're like,

350
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.640
well, I don't want to watch
any of these Hollywood things during the

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00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:49.559
strike because I don't want to support
the companies that are the whole thing gets

352
00:25:49.640 --> 00:25:52.039
very complicated. But like if you're
just like I don't want to do that,

353
00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:56.200
or you know, you didn't want
to cover any of that, then

354
00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:59.200
it's like, well, there's there's
no shortage of other things to cover,

355
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.640
you know. And I enjoyed the
opportunity and kind of the push to to

356
00:26:03.640 --> 00:26:07.079
watch some more things that some things
that I had seen before and to rewatch

357
00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:12.240
them, like Sharps and and some
other things like you know, the Hidden

358
00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:18.039
Fortress and the Godzilla movie, the
first one, you know, we watched

359
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:22.880
together, and a lot of people
say, something we see that quickly is

360
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:26.039
that on with's idea of like,
you know, people getting to speak out

361
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:30.680
of their own voice. Part of
why I watched Godzilla at the time it

362
00:26:30.720 --> 00:26:36.640
was coming out was it was right
when Oppenheimer came out. And there's a

363
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:37.960
lot of commentary I made about like, hey, how come we're talking all

364
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.559
about the atom bomb completely without like
a single Japanese character ever appearing on screen.

365
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:47.799
And I've now watched Oppenheimer, and
I think the movie is not about

366
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:49.720
the things that the marketing campaign made
it look like it was about, And

367
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:53.759
I don't think it's actually a very
well made movie. That's a very interesting

368
00:26:53.799 --> 00:26:57.720
story, but that shouldn't be the
definitive like story about you know, the

369
00:26:57.799 --> 00:27:03.880
nuclear bombs dropped under and I'm not
saying god Zilla should be, but I

370
00:27:03.920 --> 00:27:07.160
do think that, like I mean, and this wasn't just me my observing,

371
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:08.680
like doing a lot of reading.
There's been a lot of Japanese commentary

372
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:15.119
about this that the movie was very
much was made only eight years after and

373
00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:18.200
basically a year after the American occupation
ended, so they first could do it.

374
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:23.599
And it's very clearly the entire thing
a metaphor for and a kind of

375
00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:30.039
national reckoning with the you know,
the horrible thing that that America did to

376
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:34.359
them and did to the Japanese,
and so it's it's and then the later

377
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.880
movies are just a lot of fun, and some of them have really deep

378
00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:40.319
themes as well, and some of
them are just watching guys in rubber suits

379
00:27:40.359 --> 00:27:45.599
crushed plastic buildings, which looks really
fun and you to see move rubber monsters

380
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:48.799
be passive aggressive and it's wonderful.
But yeah, I would that's another one

381
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:51.839
that I think came out of this. I would really strongly recommend the nineteen

382
00:27:51.920 --> 00:27:56.920
fifty four Japanese version. That's particularly
important because they made an American version,

383
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:00.359
which is the first thing that often
come on searches, which they took out

384
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:03.160
all the stuff that's critical of America
edit. Right, it's it's the edit

385
00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:07.200
that was released in the United States, which was the only one that was

386
00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:11.480
really available in the United States for
a long time. It's the same movie,

387
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.720
but it's a different edit, so
it's a completely different movie. Well

388
00:28:15.799 --> 00:28:17.720
yeah, it's not only that,
it's just in a different edit though.

389
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:23.160
They actually made new footage of a
white reporter who like gets to be Yeah,

390
00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:26.400
so you were making a large point. I wont because that be ties

391
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:29.880
in so much with the like,
you know, hearing folks of their own

392
00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:32.680
voice. Yeah, for sure.
And and like I mean, I find

393
00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:37.119
it interesting to see also the different
stereotypings that you get from one side,

394
00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:41.359
Like you know, if you see
an American film and then the American film

395
00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.680
sort of interpret interpretation of the Japanese, and you see a Japanese film the

396
00:28:45.759 --> 00:28:51.440
Japanese interpretation of you know, Americans, and then you watch some Chinese films

397
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:56.400
and their interpretation of the Japanese.
And then also like I watched We Did

398
00:28:56.519 --> 00:29:02.119
It mon right with Donnie n and
then I'm more recently watched which which takes

399
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:07.160
place during the Japanese occupation of China, and right, and but then I

400
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:12.119
watched Enter the Fat Dragon, which
is also a Donni n movie that takes

401
00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:18.400
place largely in Japan, and it's
like, you know, there's there's this

402
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:21.640
like scene where like everybody's telling them
to be quiet basically, which is I

403
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:29.440
think this you know, sort of
like Chinese impression or stereotype of Japan.

404
00:29:29.720 --> 00:29:33.680
But then also of this self awareness
of like being called loud, you know,

405
00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:38.880
particularly like Cantonese speaking Chinese from like
Hong Kong. And so it's just

406
00:29:40.119 --> 00:29:45.720
kind of getting to see different,
you know, representations from different cultures,

407
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:51.039
of other cultures and then of themselves
and like obviously no one stereotype or whatever

408
00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:55.880
is going to be universal, but
kind of getting to see different angles on

409
00:29:55.880 --> 00:30:00.599
on the same things or whether it's
the same events like the you know,

410
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:07.759
the horrific attacks on Japan by the
United States at the end of World War

411
00:30:07.839 --> 00:30:12.400
two, or you know, the
horrific attacks on China by Japan and at

412
00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:17.319
the beginning of World War two.
Like, seeing different takes on things,

413
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:22.240
I think just is it's interesting,
It's valuable, and to me it feels

414
00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:29.119
important to just not always get one
view of anything, you know, And

415
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:32.359
yeah, I would you say,
I think it's really true. Yeah,

416
00:30:32.440 --> 00:30:34.079
yeah, And in terms of the
strike, like I don't want to get

417
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:41.079
too much into it, but just
basically, unions are power structures, and

418
00:30:41.160 --> 00:30:45.160
power structures by humans are used as
they're used. And during the strike,

419
00:30:45.319 --> 00:30:52.200
I was very conscious of trying not
to talk too much about the things about

420
00:30:52.599 --> 00:30:55.880
the Writer's Guild and the Actors Guild, like the way that they were doing

421
00:30:55.920 --> 00:31:00.240
things that I didn't like because the
producers which is it is a guild,

422
00:31:00.359 --> 00:31:06.640
the AMPTP or whatever. Like for
me, it was one of these situations

423
00:31:06.640 --> 00:31:10.880
where it's like, you have two
sides that I think are not doing things

424
00:31:10.920 --> 00:31:14.480
I agree with, but one of
them is doing things I like, vehemently

425
00:31:14.519 --> 00:31:18.319
oppose, and the other side I'm
just like, yeah, that's not why,

426
00:31:18.079 --> 00:31:22.200
you know, And I feel like
sometimes there's a time for nuance,

427
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:30.440
and there's a time for if not
like blind solidarity, then at least like,

428
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:33.759
look right now, while you're kind
of like having your moment, I'm

429
00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:40.559
not going to be like, this
is why I don't think you're this wonderful

430
00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:45.160
organization that like everybody should just be
like raw rah rah. But at the

431
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.160
same time, you know, I'm
I'm I'm gonna let you like do your

432
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.319
thing and then like I'll try and
give you know, come in with my

433
00:31:52.519 --> 00:31:57.720
pedal, my nuance later, you
know, kind of where like you know,

434
00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:00.519
and this happens in Wars too,
right, where it's like, well,

435
00:32:00.559 --> 00:32:04.880
both sides are wrong, but one
side has bigger guns. And that's

436
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:07.200
really the thing in that, you
know, producers versus writers, or producers

437
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:10.759
versus actors or whatever. It's like
the producers have bigger guns, they have

438
00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:15.359
more money, and I mean that's
metaphorical, so not as big a deal,

439
00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:20.359
you know, but like overall,
it's like for me, it's like

440
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:22.480
I think it's important to be able
to be like, yeah, I don't

441
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:27.039
agree with everything you're doing or the
way you're going about it, and I

442
00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:31.839
don't think all of your motives are
necessarily wonderful. You know, yeah,

443
00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:37.680
but you're going up against someone who
I think is dramatically more wrong than you,

444
00:32:38.279 --> 00:32:43.359
so like a right, you know, it's not necessarily the time,

445
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:47.640
you know. It's like it's like
during the twenty twenty protests, the you

446
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:53.160
know, the sometimes violent protests more
often not violent protests, It's like I

447
00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:55.759
feel like that wasn't a time to
be like, well, actually, you

448
00:32:55.799 --> 00:33:00.799
know, this way of going about
things is not going to achieve. It's

449
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:05.480
like just to no, like,
you know, let people speak for themselves.

450
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:07.720
And then I mean, and the
thing about unions is sort of like

451
00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:12.480
who is speaking for exactly whom?
You know. And so in the same

452
00:33:12.519 --> 00:33:17.519
way that Hollywood doesn't represent all film
you know, the writer's skill doesn't represent

453
00:33:17.640 --> 00:33:23.119
all writers, you know, and
I appreciate that there are multiple actor skills,

454
00:33:23.279 --> 00:33:27.400
you know. And you know,
my parents were both in film unions.

455
00:33:27.519 --> 00:33:31.960
My coming to this Earth actually was
paid for by the Teamsters union,

456
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:39.880
and like my parents paid basically nothing
of the then not quite as astronomical delivery

457
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.119
charges of children. But like you
know, but also like the Teamsters,

458
00:33:45.160 --> 00:33:49.240
like literally I think they they did
like break people's legs in spots, and

459
00:33:49.319 --> 00:33:51.599
like you know, like they asked
me, but they're like, so do

460
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:52.720
you do that? It's like,
oh, yeah, you know, yeah,

461
00:33:52.799 --> 00:33:57.039
yeah, that's that's real, you
know. And but you know,

462
00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:00.440
but also you don't want to like
portray all unions that way. In Hullywood's

463
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:06.680
had a bad history of portraying unions, you know. Yeah, and like

464
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:10.480
to bring it full circle, I'm
gonna I'm gonna pitch my my screenplay idea

465
00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:17.519
that I can't write entirely by myself, and I actually have a co writer

466
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:21.599
who I've never talked to, that
I have in mind, and I have

467
00:34:21.639 --> 00:34:24.920
a dream director and whatever. But
like in nineteen eighty two, there was

468
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:32.239
a garment workers strike in Chinatown in
New York, and actually before even the

469
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:36.760
writer's strike, I was like thinking, like, that's something that there should

470
00:34:36.760 --> 00:34:40.280
be a movie of, you know, and my mother in law worked in

471
00:34:40.320 --> 00:34:45.000
the garment you know, was a
garment worker in New York, not in

472
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:49.519
Chinatown, and like just after the
strike, but like I, you know,

473
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:52.119
I have an idea for a movie
there. But like I'm like,

474
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:59.800
I don't think somebody who didn't grow
up, you know, directly in this

475
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:05.039
w world should be like the only
writer on a project like that. You

476
00:35:05.079 --> 00:35:08.519
know, I don't believe that,
like you can only write things that are

477
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:12.880
exactly like your own personal experience,
but I do believe that, Like,

478
00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:16.559
you know, one of the things
that the union was talking about was preserving

479
00:35:16.599 --> 00:35:21.760
the writer's room, and I feel
a little conflicted about that because some of

480
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:24.079
the ways they were doing it like
felt very artificial, Like some of their

481
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:30.039
very concrete demands about exactly how many
staff members there had to be based on

482
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:31.960
exactly how many episodes they were for
a show, And I'm like, is

483
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.440
this just going to lead to longer
run times? Like so they don't you

484
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:37.519
know what I mean? Like if
someone wants to make six hours of content,

485
00:35:37.559 --> 00:35:39.760
they're like, oh, well,
if we make six episodes, we

486
00:35:39.760 --> 00:35:42.960
have to have this many writers and
twelve outs, so we're just going to

487
00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:45.199
do four hour and a half episodes. Yeah, But I do think,

488
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:49.400
you know, the strength of something
like a writer's room is you can actually

489
00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:54.079
get people with different backgrounds, with
different perspectives, and you really can bring

490
00:35:54.239 --> 00:36:00.159
a bunch of voices to one project
and make sure that you have the necessary

491
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:04.800
voices you know, in any given
project for sure. Well, especially because

492
00:36:04.840 --> 00:36:09.159
I think sometimes when the rules become
very black and white, probably very poor

493
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:14.840
phrasing, but I think that a
lot of nuance can be lost. Like

494
00:36:15.480 --> 00:36:17.719
Yeah, generally, if I hear
a white person is writing a story about

495
00:36:17.760 --> 00:36:21.559
a non white community, a part
of me gets a little like, Okay,

496
00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:23.800
Like if you told me you were
going to write a story about something

497
00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:28.239
that happened in Kenya, I'd be
like, what are you doing? Buddy,

498
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:31.400
you married into a Chinese American family
and I've lived in you know,

499
00:36:31.480 --> 00:36:36.400
like you've had You are not Chinese, but you, to me, there's

500
00:36:36.400 --> 00:36:40.280
a level of experience that you have
connection to that culture that I just said,

501
00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:42.960
Yes, so right, bring in
other writers. I'm not trying to

502
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:45.039
speak for you. I'm just to
me just the general example if someone just

503
00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:50.559
heard a white person's writing about something
that happened in Chinatown. Like, there

504
00:36:50.559 --> 00:36:53.840
are layers to what exposure people have
to different experiences and stuff like that.

505
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:58.679
Yeah, for sure, exactly.
It's like I mean people can look at,

506
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.000
you know, someone's background on paper
and things, you know, like

507
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:07.320
I I just see on you know
Wikipedia. Oh you know the writer of

508
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:10.119
Blue Beetle is you know, referred
to as Mexican born. I don't know

509
00:37:10.119 --> 00:37:14.880
what that means, you know,
like is he is he Mexican? Is

510
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:17.559
he Mexican American? Like did?
Is he just American? But he was

511
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:21.719
born in Mexico and he moved when
he was like a week old, Like

512
00:37:21.800 --> 00:37:24.400
I don't know, right, that's
so you know, I kind of threw

513
00:37:24.440 --> 00:37:27.760
that out there as like, oh, that seems like a positive thing,

514
00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:31.679
right that. Yeah, But like
I don't necessarily know exactly what that means

515
00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:35.920
in terms of like what his personal
experiences. I haven't read a bunch of

516
00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:37.840
interviews and done a bunch of research, you know, in that regard.

517
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:42.119
But and like, I do think
that there's a danger in like trying to

518
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:47.320
judge other people's kind of worthiness or
relevance to like doing any particular project.

519
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:50.960
And like, yeah, I'll write
something that takes place in Kenya, Like

520
00:37:51.000 --> 00:37:55.440
I can't not write something that takes
place in Kenya. Like but but like

521
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:02.239
there is an awareness of like I
don't personally at this point in time,

522
00:38:04.039 --> 00:38:07.519
have that much knowledge of Kenya,
you know, like I can find it

523
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.320
on a map, which I think
puts me in like maybe ten percent of

524
00:38:10.559 --> 00:38:15.360
people who live in the United States. But you know, sadly, but

525
00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:20.480
like that doesn't really do much in
terms of knowing what anyone's given experiences in

526
00:38:20.519 --> 00:38:24.559
a given place. But I do
think obviously, like, you know,

527
00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:28.199
I could be the same person and
two years from now, I could have

528
00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:31.440
lived in Kenya for two years.
Pretty unlikely turn of events, but like

529
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:36.599
and then like you know it,
it would seem a little more reasonable.

530
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:42.800
But I do think that there's like
a little bit of like I don't know.

531
00:38:42.840 --> 00:38:45.559
I think as a writer it's like
important to ask, like am I

532
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:49.760
the best person to tell this story? But yeah, but like not to

533
00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:54.039
the point of being like, well
then I like to like not doing anything

534
00:38:54.079 --> 00:39:00.559
or feeling like there should be some
real like you know, like the writer

535
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:06.679
of superhero movies that they're not superheroes, you know what I mean? And

536
00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.760
I know, yeah, like I
don't know, and some of this stuff

537
00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:14.480
actually, yeah, there's a large
conversation we had here, and I think

538
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:16.239
you and I are not you know, I think I see things pretty differently

539
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:21.280
than you, but I also hear
what you're saying. I think for me,

540
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:27.800
the part of it's also that like
it's the like kind of we're saying

541
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:30.920
about like you know, if the
first story about the Adam Baum is being

542
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:34.320
told about American guilt about it,
that seems, you know, and it's

543
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.440
not the first story, but one
of the first Native movies by Americans certainly,

544
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:39.599
And that's like, you know,
if we were getting tons of Kenyan

545
00:39:39.639 --> 00:39:43.880
movies by Kenyons, which we are, they just no one ever sees them,

546
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:46.119
like you know, I'm like,
sure, yeah, rite it,

547
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:50.280
but you know, but I also
think, as you said, there's ways

548
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:52.760
of like I have not yet seen
Killers of the Flower Moon. I'm very

549
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:55.800
curious to see it. I hope
to see it. But a number of

550
00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:01.760
Native Native American you know, content
creators who I follow, including some of

551
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:07.000
those you know from the the tribal
group, that is that the movie is

552
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:09.320
about the neighbor, which I forget, you know, have been very clear

553
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:13.920
about. Like Martin Scorsese worked with
us for a very long time on writing

554
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:17.199
this movie. There was one quote
that I really love where we basically said,

555
00:40:17.199 --> 00:40:21.639
like, this is not the movie
that someone from our background would have

556
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:23.800
written, right, but it's the
best movie we could have imagined a white

557
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:29.519
man making. And right now Hollywood
won't let us make the movie. So

558
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:31.079
if Martin Scorsese makes the movie,
then you know, that's great, And

559
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:35.639
I think that's and I think there's
something to be said for like when Martin

560
00:40:35.679 --> 00:40:42.199
Scorsese makes that movie which I haven't
seen or really read about, I do

561
00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.719
think it can make it easier for
the people who are saying, you know,

562
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:51.400
we can't make that movie right now, to gain the visibility and the

563
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:57.280
opportunity to make maybe not that exact
movie, you know, but at other

564
00:40:57.320 --> 00:41:00.480
times it makes it harder, you
know, And I think it sort of

565
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:05.280
being aware of how the industry is
functioning and stuff like that. I think

566
00:41:06.159 --> 00:41:08.320
I think that's useful, you know, kind of knowing like is this,

567
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:14.920
you know, is this helping?
Is this hurting? Like what am I

568
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:17.440
trying to do here? Like?
Do I just have a story I want

569
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:21.039
to tell? And so I'm going
to tell that story, and like you

570
00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:23.440
can have whatever thoughts you want about
my identity or this or that or whatever,

571
00:41:23.960 --> 00:41:28.800
or like, you know, if
it really is someone else's story,

572
00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:32.760
then like, how can I make
sure that whoever's story it really is,

573
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:39.320
Like if it's relating to like real
people or like a very specific culture,

574
00:41:40.039 --> 00:41:46.360
how can I make sure that people
from that culture, are people within that

575
00:41:46.440 --> 00:41:52.880
story or related to that story,
are involved or at least you know,

576
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:57.000
in some capacity, right whether or
not they have the written by credit,

577
00:41:57.400 --> 00:42:01.400
you know, for sure for sure. Pulling back to the Union stuff,

578
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:05.360
I want to talk about a movie
that we watched this year. I watched

579
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:07.519
this year. I don't know if
you've ever seen it. I don't talk

580
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:12.639
to about. Let's start that again. Pulling back to the union stuff.

581
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:15.719
One more thing I want to say
about that and the Strike is there's one

582
00:42:15.800 --> 00:42:19.920
movie for which I broke the picket
in that regard that we talked about a

583
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:27.320
Disney made movie, but it felt
appropriate after seeing the actors from the movie

584
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:30.320
singing the songs from the movie on
the picket lines, and I'm talking about

585
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:34.400
the movie that, as far as
I can understand, is where a hell

586
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:37.239
of a lot of people, a
hell of a lot of millennials and gen

587
00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:42.320
Zers and even some folks of our
generation got really a union consciousness. And

588
00:42:42.360 --> 00:42:49.199
that's Newsy's which is Christian Bale as
a fifteen year old newsboy singing and dancing

589
00:42:49.239 --> 00:42:53.559
as he talks about of the very
real newspaper boys strike of eighteen ninety eight

590
00:42:53.679 --> 00:43:00.199
or maybe nineteen hundred. It's a
ridiculous movie. It's a lot of fun,

591
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:04.639
and it's a Disney musical with all
of that entails, but it's really

592
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:07.840
a beautiful story about unions and actually
has a lot of like union theory in

593
00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:13.559
it, and I really love getting
to do an episode about it and really

594
00:43:13.639 --> 00:43:15.159
using that as a lens to look
at the unions. I mean, certainly,

595
00:43:15.199 --> 00:43:17.639
one of things I talked about is
that unions aren't perfect by any means.

596
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:22.079
But that there's a need for like
like there are times where inside the

597
00:43:22.239 --> 00:43:29.039
Union they disagree on tactics, but
they have the strategy of like once we

598
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:31.920
decide, once the majority or the
leadership besides on the tactics, then we're

599
00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:35.639
all The strategy is to then all
go out and hold up those tactics,

600
00:43:35.679 --> 00:43:38.079
you know. And yeah, it's
it's by no means a perfect movie,

601
00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:42.280
and it's not completely accurate, but
it was just I mean, obviously the

602
00:43:42.280 --> 00:43:45.800
singing and dancing is very much not
accurate. Christian Bale is a good singer.

603
00:43:47.320 --> 00:43:51.159
So I heard the Batman voice hurts. But yeah, so that was

604
00:43:51.199 --> 00:43:54.199
just a fun one. I want
to hear more of the things that that

605
00:43:54.199 --> 00:43:58.519
Blue Beetle brought up for you.
But I'm wondering, can you guess what

606
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:02.840
is the topic that I really more
and more became enamored of this year that

607
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:09.519
Blue Beetle gets doesn't does a completely
awful job of Yeah, I see the

608
00:44:09.599 --> 00:44:15.320
transition about Blue Beetle for me would
be Kevin Conroy as Batman singing, am

609
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:19.079
I Blue? Oh? Okay,
there you go, there you go.

610
00:44:19.239 --> 00:44:24.159
So speaking of Batman singing, wait, so what what is that that it

611
00:44:24.199 --> 00:44:27.920
doesn't bring up. I mean,
is it the multiverse? Is it?

612
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:31.599
What's a topic that I really love
talking about on this podcast that this is

613
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:39.239
not a good example of that.
You love talking about relatable villains, relatable

614
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:44.599
villains, That is that it?
That's it? Yeah, yeah, you're

615
00:44:44.679 --> 00:44:49.719
right. Susan Sarandon's character is not. It is a two direct, two

616
00:44:49.800 --> 00:44:54.599
dimensional cardboard cutout of an evil,
evil, Reaganite profiteering, you know,

617
00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:00.519
person. And I think Susan Sarandon
did a great job of playing a terribly

618
00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:05.679
written character. But the whole point
was to be like, and it's funny

619
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:09.159
because like at one point said on
this podcast that I think, like just

620
00:45:09.239 --> 00:45:13.519
you should always have a relatable villain, and someone called me out on it.

621
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:15.239
It may have been you, It
may have been just Plumber. Yeah,

622
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:17.239
uh, maybe both of you at
the same time. I don't know.

623
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:21.199
But maybe pointing out like that that
is great most of the time,

624
00:45:21.239 --> 00:45:23.880
but sometimes you just want to focus
on the hero and and don't want to

625
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:29.800
engage with that. And yeah,
like to me, Student Sarandon's villain being

626
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:34.360
completely uninteresting is not at all a
problem with the movie. But I think

627
00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:38.039
this year really did codify for me
that I think it is for the For

628
00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:42.960
me, that's what makes the ethical
podcast. You know, it's like dealing

629
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:46.679
with and there's some great challenges the
heroes face that Blue Beetle deals with one

630
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:52.280
of my personal face two of my
personal favorites. But I really like looking

631
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:54.519
back at a lot of the things
we talked about this year, you know,

632
00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:02.119
the stories of villains, but also
the story of heroes who are really

633
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:07.159
pretty dark or characters who aren't heroes
but are protagonists, like Dread to me

634
00:46:07.320 --> 00:46:12.880
is a great example of that,
you know of like maybe he's an anti

635
00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:16.559
hero, maybe he's just a protagonist
who's not heroic. Wire a whole podcast

636
00:46:16.639 --> 00:46:20.400
about a dread. Oh Dread.
I thought you said Red, and I'm

637
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:23.000
like the from the Blacklist. I
was like, I was like, I

638
00:46:23.000 --> 00:46:27.880
guess he's not a hero and he's
exactly the protagonist. Yeah, Dread,

639
00:46:28.039 --> 00:46:30.880
Yeah for sure, for sure.
Similarly like Hunger Games, the Ballad of

640
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:36.639
Songbirds and Snakes, which you have
not seen a red. Okay, I

641
00:46:36.679 --> 00:46:39.760
will be very careful about this point. I don't think I care, but

642
00:46:40.119 --> 00:46:45.039
okay, yeah, maybe maybe light
on the spoilers. It's pretty recently came

643
00:46:45.079 --> 00:46:47.559
out, so I won't but I'll
just say that it is a movie about

644
00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:54.480
President Snow, but it is not
a villain origin story in the traditional something

645
00:46:54.599 --> 00:46:59.440
bad happened to a good person and
the joker was proven right, you know,

646
00:46:59.519 --> 00:47:02.400
and they it was. This is
a person who was on a bad

647
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:09.960
path and was given opportunities to change, and we watched them not do so.

648
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:15.280
And it's part of what makes it
so brilliant to me is there's never

649
00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:20.000
a moment where I don't find the
character intensely relatable, you know. In

650
00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:23.000
that I'm feeling like if I was
raised the way he was raised and experienced

651
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:29.880
the trauma he experienced, I want
to believe I would make better choices than

652
00:47:29.920 --> 00:47:32.239
he did, and I think I
would. But I also understand why I

653
00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:37.880
would write like I can understand the
urge to go into all the darkness that

654
00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:40.480
he does, and it was I
think both that and Dread were just both

655
00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:44.800
It's funny. Dread was literally the
first movie we talked about this year,

656
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:51.320
and that one was the last before
we got into The one that came after

657
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:53.280
that was What is a Christmas Movie? Which is a fun genre exploration,

658
00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:59.320
but Christmas movies generally don't involve villains. Sometimes I do not, I not.

659
00:47:59.360 --> 00:48:06.360
I've repeatedly watched Scrooge the actually the
Disney version with Uncle Scrooge. Oh

660
00:48:06.440 --> 00:48:13.079
yeah, in Cantonese, but like, it's definitely Christmas y and he's definitely

661
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:16.360
a villain. And then he gets
a chance to turn away from that villain

662
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:22.039
his path and he does. You
know, spoilers for a Christmas Carol and

663
00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:29.119
the fifteen thousand adaptations that you may
find in film and television. And actually

664
00:48:29.159 --> 00:48:32.480
we had someone be very critical of
the Christmas Carol story, which is fun

665
00:48:32.519 --> 00:48:37.000
on that what is a Christmas Movie
podcast? But yeah, what's how do

666
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:42.840
you feel about relatable villains? I
think they can be great. I think

667
00:48:43.039 --> 00:48:46.320
making a majority of villains, there's
like relatable, and then there's just like

668
00:48:46.360 --> 00:48:52.480
this character as a person, you
know. And I feel like and Or

669
00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:59.119
did a good job of having a
mix of relatable antagonists or antagonists that you

670
00:48:59.199 --> 00:49:02.280
had a chance to relate to if
you happen to relate to some of some

671
00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:07.800
of their experiences or or you know, put them in some situations that you

672
00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:09.280
might develop some empathy for them and
then be like, oh no, this

673
00:49:09.400 --> 00:49:13.119
is a villain, you know.
Yeah, And then other characters who are

674
00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:16.079
just there. They're still characters,
but it's like maybe not as relatable,

675
00:49:16.159 --> 00:49:19.280
but just like, yeah, that
seems like a person, you know,

676
00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:22.679
yeah, as opposed to like this
is a cardboard cutout of a villain,

677
00:49:22.840 --> 00:49:25.599
you know. Yeah. And maybe
a better way of saying what I wanted

678
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:30.199
to say is that you understand that
the villain thinks they're the hero, right

679
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:35.679
the villain isn't twirling their mustache because
Susan Sarandon was twirling her mustache like one

680
00:49:35.679 --> 00:49:38.480
of the best. Absolutely, absolutely, And you know, I think there's

681
00:49:38.559 --> 00:49:46.480
room for both. And I think
that there are more that there are more

682
00:49:46.920 --> 00:49:52.840
relatable villains or villains that you understand
believe they are the protagonist. I think

683
00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:57.559
that is generally a good thing,
that there are more of them. But

684
00:49:57.920 --> 00:50:02.760
I also don't think there's no room
for villains who are not like that.

685
00:50:02.840 --> 00:50:07.159
You know, I believe there's there's
space for both. And you know,

686
00:50:07.480 --> 00:50:10.440
was that the best choice in this
movie? Maybe? You know, I

687
00:50:10.440 --> 00:50:13.880
mean she could have been maybe,
you know, she could have been like

688
00:50:13.880 --> 00:50:16.159
two and a half dimensional maybe,
but like you know, and and certain

689
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:20.440
things felt like very on the nose. But at the same time, it's

690
00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:23.400
like, yeah, maybe that's just
that was fine in this movie. You

691
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:30.679
know, there's there's other there's multiple
antagonists who have a little bit more going

692
00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:34.880
on. Who who you know,
Swan you mentioned there's there's another one who

693
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:39.599
also has a I think relatable experience
by consistently not being called by his name,

694
00:50:39.960 --> 00:50:43.679
you know, And I think that
can be relatable to a lot of

695
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:47.800
people in different ways. Right,
It was unfortunate that that led to one

696
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:52.039
of the lines that I could predict
word for word. Yes, yes,

697
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:54.440
and but yeah, it was very
relatable, and his like hero turn in

698
00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:59.880
that regard was very relatable, if
incredibly telegraphed, right, yeah, exactly,

699
00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:05.519
actually totally predictable, not subtle,
but like you know, it was

700
00:51:05.559 --> 00:51:08.360
there, you know, and and
so I you know, I think I

701
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:15.000
think sometimes I don't think hmm,
some movies just don't seem to have the

702
00:51:15.039 --> 00:51:22.199
bandwidth to do certain things together,
you know, and maybe maybe trying to

703
00:51:22.280 --> 00:51:29.000
make her character more than it was, you know, and they kind of

704
00:51:29.079 --> 00:51:31.760
almost like with her off screen,
sort of hand waved in that direction,

705
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:36.920
you know, where like, you
know, the basic plot premise is that

706
00:51:37.480 --> 00:51:38.920
you know, this guy makes a
company and he has a son and a

707
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:43.440
daughter who are running the company and
then the son maybe kind of goes away

708
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:45.599
from running the company, and the
father dies and then he leaves it to

709
00:51:45.599 --> 00:51:50.320
the son, and you know,
they kind of mentioned like that seems kind

710
00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:53.119
of sexist, you know, like
and you know, we don't know all

711
00:51:53.159 --> 00:51:55.599
the details, but it's like,
you know, you can kind of fill

712
00:51:55.599 --> 00:52:00.920
in, like, yeah, she
didn't like that, and so not like

713
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:02.880
therefore she took a villainous turn.
But that's why, you know, she

714
00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:07.960
kind of maybe has a chip on
her shoulder about how the company was run

715
00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:12.079
and what she wanted to do with
it when when she got control of it

716
00:52:12.159 --> 00:52:15.519
finally, you know, and and
so there's like there's something there. It's

717
00:52:15.559 --> 00:52:20.119
just they didn't they didn't do much
with it, and like that's that's okay.

718
00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:24.599
You know, it's a choice.
It's a choice for sure, for

719
00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:29.119
sure. But yeah, it's definitely
something I like, I have had this

720
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:31.320
idea that I've wanted to write a
book about villains for a long time,

721
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:35.320
and I think more and more,
Uh, it's something I hope that I'm

722
00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:38.119
going to do in the new year. And I think part of it for

723
00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:45.519
me is also that the better a
villain is, I think it often part

724
00:52:45.559 --> 00:52:50.599
of why I don't like, you
know, completely evil evil villains is it

725
00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:55.760
means that you have completely morally justified
heroes. Because if there is pure total

726
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:59.639
evil in the world, you know, in the in the form of like

727
00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:01.880
a power beatine, you know,
unlimited power and all this, Yeah,

728
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:07.599
then it's very hard to ask questions
about what is or isn't justified in in

729
00:53:07.639 --> 00:53:12.360
against that person, you know,
and and you know, you need Hitler

730
00:53:12.360 --> 00:53:15.480
to have a captain America, and
there is a real world Hitler, like

731
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:20.920
there is a you know, so
there there definitely is you know, uh,

732
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:22.599
even he thought he was the hero
in his own story. But I

733
00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:25.719
think to the rest of us can
be pretty clearly like yeah, anoplutely awful,

734
00:53:27.079 --> 00:53:30.840
but then the feelings of just how
absolutely awful led to the fire bombing

735
00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:35.119
of Dresden, you know, and
and the killing of hundreds of thousands of

736
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:38.320
German civilians. Yeah. So yeah, so it's just and bring it back

737
00:53:38.360 --> 00:53:40.280
to Blue Beetle, I'll say.
The flip side of that to me,

738
00:53:40.360 --> 00:53:47.840
then, is the the villain who
wrestles with their own power and did you

739
00:53:47.880 --> 00:53:52.760
get some pretty strong Luke Luke Luke
Skywalker at the end of return of the

740
00:53:52.800 --> 00:54:00.880
Jedi vibes from from Blue Beetle's Journey
in this oh, like allowing the guy

741
00:54:00.880 --> 00:54:05.480
with the prostatic cansa kill the main
villain, Well, I'm that kind of

742
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:07.800
at the same time, No,
no, specifically in that like, oh

743
00:54:09.159 --> 00:54:12.880
oh yeah, like he wanted to
kill the guy and then he's like,

744
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:15.639
I'm not going to kill him because
that's not who I am, who I

745
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:19.199
want to be. Well, even
more than that, he starts out as

746
00:54:19.239 --> 00:54:23.000
like he doesn't want to use lethal
damage, and so he's fighting this machine

747
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:27.360
that he doesn't want to fight lethally. He then starts just like you know,

748
00:54:27.519 --> 00:54:30.119
punching them really hard against brick walls, which as we've discussed as another

749
00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:35.960
favorite theme of mine. But then
later when he's really kind of like at

750
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:42.159
his lowest point, it's by embracing
his anger and and and rage at what's

751
00:54:42.199 --> 00:54:47.039
happening to his family that he empowers
himself. And on the Star Wars podcast,

752
00:54:47.079 --> 00:54:52.840
we've like to I think that the
to me, the original framing of

753
00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:57.480
the Force in Star Wars is that
if you give into anger and hate,

754
00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:01.239
that it will, you know,
forever, will dominate your destiny because you

755
00:55:01.280 --> 00:55:06.480
start to just see things as things
you hate. And I think some of

756
00:55:06.599 --> 00:55:09.920
Star Wars got a little like black
and white about that, and more recent

757
00:55:09.960 --> 00:55:13.159
and more recent stories, I think
they've been embracing the idea of like,

758
00:55:13.639 --> 00:55:15.360
no, there is some power to
rage, there is some power to anger,

759
00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:19.639
there's some power to hate. The
problem is that it can can blind

760
00:55:19.679 --> 00:55:22.159
you, it can overpower you.
And so to me, having him both

761
00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:28.960
be incredibly empowered by focusing on his
anger and his desire to you know,

762
00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:32.039
it's it's desire to protect, but
like so is Anakins, you know,

763
00:55:34.559 --> 00:55:37.440
but then having it be that moment
where he is like, I have to

764
00:55:37.599 --> 00:55:39.039
you know, I have to kill
this person who's done great harm to his

765
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:43.480
family, and the machine stops him
in some way, but because them,

766
00:55:43.559 --> 00:55:46.119
Sheine knows like, no, that's
not what you want to do. I

767
00:55:46.400 --> 00:55:49.840
just thought it was absolutely brilliant and
but also gave me it was like,

768
00:55:50.199 --> 00:55:52.199
oh, here's one of my favorite
themes is like how do you be?

769
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:58.360
How do you use great power to
fight evil without becoming just a killing machine

770
00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:04.039
yourself? Right? And like and
you actually tap into your anger to I

771
00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:07.079
mean, I feel like this relates
a lot to you know, our world

772
00:56:07.239 --> 00:56:14.360
problems where there are a great many
things that we can be very angry about,

773
00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:19.599
and that anger can drive us to
action. We can allow anger to

774
00:56:19.679 --> 00:56:24.119
drive us to action and motivate us
and push us to take action. But

775
00:56:24.400 --> 00:56:30.599
like somewhere there's a like there needs
to be some you know, the the

776
00:56:30.719 --> 00:56:37.039
I can't drive the train the whole
time kind of right, like like there

777
00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:43.519
needs to be some amount of like
sort of like supervising ourselves of like Okay,

778
00:56:43.599 --> 00:56:49.199
wait, yeah, that's that's not
going to actually either that's not who

779
00:56:49.239 --> 00:56:51.079
I want to be, that's not
what I want to do, or like

780
00:56:51.239 --> 00:56:53.800
that's not going to achieve the ends
I want, you know. And like

781
00:56:54.239 --> 00:57:00.800
so I think like using anger as
a motivation without letting it be a like

782
00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:06.639
the only driving force, you know. I think like having it, having

783
00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:08.639
it supply the fuel, but not
drive the bus. You know. I

784
00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:12.320
think it's like can can we do
that? And it's like I think that's

785
00:57:12.400 --> 00:57:16.119
hard, but I think it's it's
possible, you know. And and so

786
00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:20.280
I think he kind of manages to
do that a little bit where you know,

787
00:57:20.679 --> 00:57:25.760
he is that anger and you know, the anger at something bad happening

788
00:57:25.800 --> 00:57:31.519
to people that he cares about,
driving him to take action, but then

789
00:57:31.760 --> 00:57:36.519
still having the wherewithal to be like, okay, hold on, let's yeah,

790
00:57:36.639 --> 00:57:42.079
you're right, you know, I'm
not because it is u kaji Da,

791
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:45.559
right, the voice the blue beetle
of the machine, you know,

792
00:57:46.079 --> 00:57:50.199
yeah, whether it's or it's like
I think it's Ai, but it may

793
00:57:50.239 --> 00:57:52.360
also be a spirit. We don't
have any idea, right, right,

794
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:58.239
it's not. It's not really gone
into deeply here, and you know,

795
00:57:58.360 --> 00:58:01.920
and telling him like, wait,
but this is what you said before.

796
00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:05.480
It's like, oh, yeah,
I did say that. Okay, yeah,

797
00:58:05.519 --> 00:58:08.440
thanks. You know. One other
just cool thing that harkens back to

798
00:58:08.440 --> 00:58:15.119
the language set, yeah, is
that as the Kaji Da and like him,

799
00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:17.519
they start out very much at odd
and over the course of the movie

800
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:22.440
they they quite literally synchronize. And
one of the ways that the movie shows

801
00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:27.840
that is that the Kaji Da starts
speaking him in Spanish. Yeah very much.

802
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:31.119
Again, you really's talking to him
in Spanglish like and I just thought

803
00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:36.320
that was such a brilliant way of
showing like this is now and I think

804
00:58:36.400 --> 00:58:42.199
without that that helps me to buy
that it is so you know, connected

805
00:58:42.239 --> 00:58:47.320
to his head. Another just quick
shout out of you know, this is

806
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:52.199
just like a connection, not a
theme. But what's the name of the

807
00:58:52.239 --> 00:59:01.360
actor who plays Hime Okay du Yeah, yeah, Marie Duinya. Yeah,

808
00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:06.960
okay. This isn't really a theme
of the show, although it's a topic

809
00:59:07.000 --> 00:59:07.960
we talk about a lot. But
it's funny that this is so much of

810
00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:13.039
a connection. Is this is now
the second time we have talked about the

811
00:59:13.159 --> 00:59:20.239
actor dealing with wanting to fight without
using lethal force and being scared of the

812
00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:23.199
possibilities of his force because of course, he plays Miguel in Cobra Kai,

813
00:59:23.639 --> 00:59:27.840
who goes to many of the exact
same struggles. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

814
00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:30.360
I was like, you mean a
little bit typecast, my friend,

815
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:34.599
You're you're a great actor, So
I love it. Yeah, I'd like

816
00:59:34.679 --> 00:59:39.679
to to give a little shout out
to Soolo Marie Duenya where he like there's

817
00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:45.519
things that and there's like certain just
very Miguel things that Jime does here,

818
00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:51.840
you know where like both in like
when he's like talking to a girl and

819
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:58.599
like not be like somehow he managed
to come off as like very likable,

820
00:59:59.079 --> 01:00:04.280
charismatic. He can like be visibly
interested in someone, but it doesn't feel

821
01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:08.760
like a like a you know,
trying to like wean a right, but

822
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:13.840
also like it's like he's not I
don't know, like that like sort of

823
01:00:15.480 --> 01:00:19.280
sliminess or the kind of like aim
to be possessive or something like that,

824
01:00:19.480 --> 01:00:22.800
Like that's not there, Like there's
he just has a very particular sort of

825
01:00:22.880 --> 01:00:28.079
charisma that I think comes out in
this role that also does in Cobra Kai,

826
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:31.079
and just he works on his attitude
of like he's a round, a

827
01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:34.719
beautiful woman and he's just so happy
and honored to be in a presence and

828
01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:37.239
he wants to keep doing that,
you know, without like you said,

829
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:40.719
without it being the like your mind
now, Yeah, and like a certain

830
01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:45.519
level just kind of like respectfulness without
like being like super deferential. It's like

831
01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:50.880
it just works. He's just got
a vibe and it comes out here and

832
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:54.000
yeah, and it works. I
think, yeah, it really does.

833
01:00:54.480 --> 01:00:58.719
It does. And then also just
a couple of other cast members. I

834
01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:00.920
mean, it was it's cool to
see George Lopez gets to like play like

835
01:01:01.519 --> 01:01:07.360
I think a Mexican Doc Brown is
how yeah what I think that was a

836
01:01:07.440 --> 01:01:09.320
line from the movie, right,
that is a line yeah, yeah,

837
01:01:09.840 --> 01:01:15.039
a Mexican Doc Brown combined with like
are you so there? Yes? Yeah,

838
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:21.440
no, I'm here a Mexican doc
Brown combined with a like survivalist super

839
01:01:21.480 --> 01:01:23.920
paranoid. But it's the fun thing
where the super paranoid guy gets to be

840
01:01:24.199 --> 01:01:31.840
gets to be right, So that's
fun. And and uh Damian Alcasar who

841
01:01:31.880 --> 01:01:37.719
plays his father, And I've actually
recently said I was watching I'm halfway through

842
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:45.159
a movie kvi Va Meko on on
Netflix where he plays maybe more than one

843
01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:49.360
character. But and uh, and
he's in a bunch of other stuff,

844
01:01:51.360 --> 01:01:54.159
like like Mexican movies, you know. In his bio, I think it

845
01:01:54.239 --> 01:01:59.960
refers to him as being in six
four in Productions and twenty seven Mexican movie.

846
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:05.480
I like that. Yeah, yeah, and yeah, and just overall,

847
01:02:05.599 --> 01:02:12.599
like I thought, I mean,
I liked Bruno Markensing as Mark Marquessing,

848
01:02:12.760 --> 01:02:19.760
Marquessing as Jenny Cord the kind of
like love interest but also like maybe

849
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:22.199
the real protagonist of the you know, like in terms of in terms of

850
01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:28.639
the plot, you know, like
he's the like she's the wasp to his

851
01:02:28.719 --> 01:02:32.360
aunt man quite literally, Yeah,
she's the daughter of the guy. And

852
01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:37.440
it gets passed over like you know, yeah, and like he kind of

853
01:02:37.519 --> 01:02:40.880
accidentally becomes, you know, the
the hero here right, Like he wasn't

854
01:02:40.960 --> 01:02:45.000
meant to like like the Blue Beatles, just like oh yeah, I'm gonna

855
01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:50.400
you're gonna be my host now,
you know yea. But yeah, just

856
01:02:50.519 --> 01:02:57.320
over overall, I felt like the
cast brought a lot that I think if

857
01:02:57.519 --> 01:03:02.079
if if you filmed this movie with
a bad subpart cast, I think it

858
01:03:02.079 --> 01:03:06.639
would actually be quite bad. You
know. Yeah, but it wasn't you

859
01:03:06.719 --> 01:03:09.000
know, there were parts that you
know, Okay, we're doing this now,

860
01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:13.679
you know. Yeah, there were
there were some moments. I won't

861
01:03:13.719 --> 01:03:15.239
get into those stuff. I'll focus
on the part that I liked, which

862
01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:19.199
was like just you know, just
the performances and just seeing like, you

863
01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:22.079
know, the peoples as people.
You know. Yeah, I think it

864
01:03:22.159 --> 01:03:28.800
really highlights that, like I love
ensemble hero movies and that clearly this is

865
01:03:28.920 --> 01:03:32.840
like there's one named hero, but
he's off screen for like twenty minutes of

866
01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:37.800
one of the biggest action scenes in
the movie, and yeah, it works.

867
01:03:38.159 --> 01:03:42.920
And I think like this is a
couple of years now ago. Now

868
01:03:42.960 --> 01:03:45.519
he has a bunch of years ago
now because when Rogue one came out.

869
01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:51.039
But we had a great discussion with
Becky Allen about like moving away from the

870
01:03:51.199 --> 01:03:54.000
like you know, one strong man
of history stories all the time to be

871
01:03:54.119 --> 01:03:59.440
much more like ensembles and found family, and this isn't really found family,

872
01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:01.480
although one person kind of gets adopted
into it. It is a blood family,

873
01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:08.519
but it is such a strong story
of family. Yes, when I

874
01:04:08.599 --> 01:04:12.400
first compared it to Encanto, in
my mind, I kind of stepped back

875
01:04:12.440 --> 01:04:14.760
for a second and being like,
am I am I kind of just doing

876
01:04:14.800 --> 01:04:17.719
this because it's about to you know, Latin American families, and but I

877
01:04:17.760 --> 01:04:21.599
think there are a lot of connections
there of things that are very related,

878
01:04:21.639 --> 01:04:26.000
you know, very connected to the
Latin American experience, but like you know,

879
01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:30.960
not exclusively to but the way it's
told, particularly in terms of like

880
01:04:30.239 --> 01:04:34.280
family and the way the family interacts
with each other and that being very much

881
01:04:34.320 --> 01:04:39.519
extended family, but also just in
terms of like the history of colonial violence

882
01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:42.320
being a big part of both of
those stories and stuff like that. That's

883
01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:45.400
the bigger connection for me and kind
of family vibe, right, like,

884
01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:48.239
yeah, yeah, very much so. Less the singing and dancing, Yeah,

885
01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:53.719
less the singing and dancing, but
also the strong grandmother figure and as

886
01:04:53.800 --> 01:04:58.960
for the memory of the grandfather being
being a part of the Yeah, sure,

887
01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:01.119
were the other themes that really hit
for you. There's one of them

888
01:05:01.159 --> 01:05:03.400
I want to talk about that's not
connected to Blue Beatle, but with any

889
01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:06.199
others that connect that you want to
talk about from this year, either connected

890
01:05:06.199 --> 01:05:11.480
to Blue Beetle or not. So, I mean, just one one series

891
01:05:11.559 --> 01:05:15.000
that I'd like to just throw out
there that I watched this year, I

892
01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:17.320
think during the strike, because I
was like, am I going to just

893
01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:20.280
not watch anything? It's like,
oh, I'm not paying for any of

894
01:05:20.360 --> 01:05:25.760
these things, so so so it's
not like my my money is going to

895
01:05:25.880 --> 01:05:29.400
the companies or whatever. But just
something that I watched that I really appreciated

896
01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:33.400
was American Born Chinese that was a
you know, that's a Disney production,

897
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:36.719
Like it's you know, it's not
even Marvel. It's like it's Disney,

898
01:05:38.119 --> 01:05:42.039
you know, And it's a it's
a superhero ish you know. I mean,

899
01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:48.960
it's definitely you know, supernatural.
It's inspired by partially, I mean,

900
01:05:49.000 --> 01:05:53.880
it's it's actually it's it is an
adaptation of you know, graphic novels,

901
01:05:55.239 --> 01:06:00.760
and it's got like half the cast
of everything everywhere, all once who

902
01:06:00.800 --> 01:06:05.159
are all fabulous and not the best
part of the series for me. Yeah,

903
01:06:05.639 --> 01:06:10.000
In terms of acting. And one
thing that I felt like that series

904
01:06:10.039 --> 01:06:14.639
really did a good job of without
getting deep into it, is letting a

905
01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:20.880
lot of different characters, you know, have their stories and be protagonists within

906
01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:29.159
their own thing and be heroes really
without like characters who you wouldn't necessarily expect

907
01:06:29.239 --> 01:06:33.119
to see that to get that chance, you know, And I really enjoyed

908
01:06:33.159 --> 01:06:39.920
that aspect of it. And now
I'm rewatching it that my Mandarin isn't as

909
01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:44.800
terrible as it was when I first
saw it. Nice, It defaely something

910
01:06:44.840 --> 01:06:47.000
I want to say that there's a
big backload. Yeah, no, you

911
01:06:47.119 --> 01:06:50.599
watched it. You watched it,
We talked about it. You're right,

912
01:06:50.679 --> 01:06:54.159
you're right, Thank you. No, we did watch it. Yeah,

913
01:06:55.199 --> 01:06:58.599
that's right. Now talk about all
the podcasts. But I was talking about

914
01:06:59.079 --> 01:07:00.159
that's right. I thought, what
do you talk about it on a podcast?

915
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:06.480
Did we? Oh? My goodness? Is my Yeah? I was

916
01:07:06.519 --> 01:07:10.199
thinking. I was thinking of a
TV show. I thought there was a

917
01:07:10.280 --> 01:07:14.159
TV show that was kind of like
an updated version of the Fresh off the

918
01:07:14.239 --> 01:07:16.159
Boat idea, And that's what I
thought you were talking about. And then

919
01:07:16.159 --> 01:07:18.559
I realized, No, it was
a movie that was really good. No,

920
01:07:18.639 --> 01:07:20.880
it was a series this is a
series of eight. Yeah, it's

921
01:07:21.039 --> 01:07:27.760
definitely not like I mean, I
guess there are similarities to Fresh off the

922
01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:30.719
Boat, but it's a very different
feel. I mean, it's a you

923
01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:34.239
know, it's a it's an action
story, superhero story, yeah, exactly,

924
01:07:34.840 --> 01:07:41.000
supernatural story certainly. Yeah. Yeah. And oh no, there is

925
01:07:41.079 --> 01:07:45.519
another thing that I then watched the
Yeah, the legend the New Legends of

926
01:07:45.679 --> 01:07:50.039
Monkey, which is like the same
kind of character group of characters are based

927
01:07:50.079 --> 01:07:59.280
on the same you know, I
think sixteenth century Chinese novel which but but

928
01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:08.199
this one is an Australian sort of
remake ish of a nineteen eighties Japanese TV

929
01:08:08.400 --> 01:08:15.159
series that was based on this much
older Chinese novel. And I but I

930
01:08:15.280 --> 01:08:17.720
watched it dubbed in Mandarin, which
was like a weird experience. I was

931
01:08:17.800 --> 01:08:21.920
like, instead of watching things dubbed
in English, not watching English things dubbed

932
01:08:21.960 --> 01:08:26.119
in Mandarin, which and it's it
has like a bit of a like Xena

933
01:08:26.199 --> 01:08:30.640
Hercules vibe, so you know,
it's it's it's it's different. It's different.

934
01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:34.520
Yeah, I like it. I
like it. One small thing and

935
01:08:34.520 --> 01:08:36.920
then one of the bigger theme that
I wanted to bring up just back to

936
01:08:36.960 --> 01:08:41.479
the subject of villains again. Because
of the strike, we got to re

937
01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:45.279
explore some of the some much older
works. And you know, I've always

938
01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:48.880
known that superhero movies did not invent
the idea of the relatable villain by any

939
01:08:48.960 --> 01:08:53.319
means, but I think I got
a really powerful reminder of just how deep

940
01:08:53.399 --> 01:08:56.239
some of these ideas go. And
they go far, far beyond what I'm

941
01:08:56.279 --> 01:09:00.359
about to mention, far far older
than that, but still the novel Moby

942
01:09:00.399 --> 01:09:03.920
Dick. Mobi Dick was a book
that I kind of had skimmed a little

943
01:09:03.960 --> 01:09:08.399
bit when I was much younger,
didn't really get into. I've heard eight

944
01:09:08.439 --> 01:09:10.840
million allusions to it, you know, and I knew the kind of you

945
01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:14.079
know, the Moby Dick and the
White Whale and things like that that are

946
01:09:14.239 --> 01:09:16.920
used as like metaphors for things you
know, often about like you know,

947
01:09:16.960 --> 01:09:21.159
sort of a hopeless quest or a
quest that obsesses someone. And I got

948
01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:26.279
to do a phenomenal podcast about Moby
Dick with someone who'd done their master's work

949
01:09:26.359 --> 01:09:31.000
on the novel, and her screen
name is Akaahab, and we really talked

950
01:09:31.039 --> 01:09:34.840
a lot about the character of Ahab
and how he is, you know,

951
01:09:35.079 --> 01:09:40.920
the very much one of the main
protagonists of the novel, and in some

952
01:09:41.079 --> 01:09:44.000
ways very much a villain in I
mean, he certainly leads you know,

953
01:09:44.039 --> 01:09:46.239
a whole bunch of people to their
ruin because of his obsession with his whale,

954
01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:54.840
but also he's presented in not relatable
ways necessarily in that like he becomes

955
01:09:54.920 --> 01:09:59.159
clearly deeply you know, mentally troubled, but also the path he gets there,

956
01:09:59.359 --> 01:10:02.840
like actually, you've ever experienced mental
illness is completely understandable, and he

957
01:10:03.000 --> 01:10:08.479
just he became such a fascinating character
to me in a way that I think,

958
01:10:08.840 --> 01:10:12.239
you know, it is by no
means the most accessible of works,

959
01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:16.279
and the movie versions of it have
never been done quite well. And I

960
01:10:16.359 --> 01:10:21.439
kind of hope now that we just
have the the the CGI abilities to really,

961
01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:24.920
I think, do the movie right. I would really love to see

962
01:10:24.960 --> 01:10:30.319
it done. But the larger theme
I was going to talk about was shit,

963
01:10:30.359 --> 01:10:34.359
what was it? We had it
here? And I just, oh,

964
01:10:34.439 --> 01:10:39.319
yeah, actually, let me ask
you, have you seen the TV

965
01:10:39.399 --> 01:10:42.880
show The Last of Us? I
have not. Okay, I guess I

966
01:10:42.920 --> 01:10:45.079
don't really care about spoilers because it
really doesn't feel like something I want to

967
01:10:45.119 --> 01:10:49.359
see. Okay, that's really fair. I think it might not be particularly

968
01:10:49.399 --> 01:10:56.640
in what I'm going to say.
I did watch the Super Mario Brothers movie,

969
01:10:57.119 --> 01:11:04.439
which is then parodied by what's his
name on snl oh Pedro. Yeah,

970
01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:10.880
okay, cool, I'll find a
way. Yeah. Yeah. So

971
01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:13.239
the one other thing I wanted to
talk about, and there really only is

972
01:11:13.279 --> 01:11:16.680
only one example of it that I
used, although now I'm having another example

973
01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:20.960
of it. Actually I can restart
that. So the other thing I want

974
01:11:21.000 --> 01:11:26.319
to talk about is I feel like
this year I really discovered an entirely new

975
01:11:26.439 --> 01:11:29.399
medium, and a lot of people
I'm very late to the bus on this,

976
01:11:29.479 --> 01:11:31.119
A lot of people have found this
already, but it's video games.

977
01:11:33.079 --> 01:11:39.920
I had heard and understood a lot
about video games as narrative and people using

978
01:11:40.039 --> 01:11:46.159
the video game to tell stories in
a different way, but and I really

979
01:11:46.199 --> 01:11:49.319
experienced it twice this year. One
is Balder's Gate. That have been playing

980
01:11:49.439 --> 01:11:54.039
is pretty much taken over my life. A big reason why I haven't caught

981
01:11:54.119 --> 01:11:57.840
up on a lot of the things
I wanted to see was Balder's Gate came

982
01:11:57.880 --> 01:12:00.720
out, I think towards the end
of the strike, and so most of

983
01:12:00.800 --> 01:12:03.960
the time I used to spend watching
things has been spent playing Ballder'sgate with my

984
01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:08.000
partner. We're now on our third
run. It's just that good of a

985
01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:11.800
game. And every time you like, there is a story, but every

986
01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:15.039
time you play it through, you
can play it from different characters and thus

987
01:12:15.079 --> 01:12:17.840
see the story from a completely new
perspective. And so that is I think

988
01:12:17.880 --> 01:12:23.359
a thing that a video game can
do in showing you a story from all

989
01:12:23.439 --> 01:12:28.159
these different perspectives. And that's amazing. But that's not to me. I

990
01:12:28.239 --> 01:12:30.680
knew that could happen. I just
had to experience it so well. Until

991
01:12:30.680 --> 01:12:35.279
Balder's Gate three. The thing that
really blew my mind was The Last of

992
01:12:35.399 --> 01:12:40.399
Us. The Last of Us TV
show I think is incredibly dark and is

993
01:12:40.479 --> 01:12:45.319
not for people, but it's a
brilliant piece of filmmaking, you know,

994
01:12:45.399 --> 01:12:46.960
in TV form, but I think
filmmaking is the right word. The acting

995
01:12:47.039 --> 01:12:51.039
is amazing, the writing, the
cinematography, everything is just phenomenally done,

996
01:12:53.399 --> 01:12:57.800
particularly because it is not a zombie
show. It is a show that uses

997
01:12:57.920 --> 01:13:03.279
zombies as the plot device to get
us thinking about what the kind of massive

998
01:13:03.399 --> 01:13:09.199
trauma of you know, a cataclysmic
event that wipes out ninety percent of the

999
01:13:09.279 --> 01:13:12.359
population and leaves the rest of us
in this desolate healthscape, what that would

1000
01:13:12.399 --> 01:13:16.119
do to people. So the TV
show already was amazing, But then I

1001
01:13:16.199 --> 01:13:19.600
played the video game, which I
mean I watched my spouse play the video

1002
01:13:19.640 --> 01:13:24.199
game because I don't have the hand
eye coordination for first person shooters. You

1003
01:13:24.359 --> 01:13:27.840
experienced the video game. Yeah,
it's not a first person shooter necessarily,

1004
01:13:27.880 --> 01:13:30.479
but yeah, I experienced the video
game. It is a hand eye coordination

1005
01:13:30.560 --> 01:13:35.479
game, which I'm terrible at.
And Paul said, they're okay with me

1006
01:13:35.560 --> 01:13:41.119
not spoiling it, so I'm gonna
use some I won't spoil any details,

1007
01:13:41.119 --> 01:13:44.119
but just general themes. You know, if you've seen the show or the

1008
01:13:44.239 --> 01:13:49.680
video game, you know it is
about heroic It is about people doing heroic

1009
01:13:49.840 --> 01:14:00.359
things. But the main protagonist winds
up doing things that are deeply understandable and

1010
01:14:00.560 --> 01:14:08.239
completely understandable, and probably wind up
fucking over the entire world because of like

1011
01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:12.039
I'm gonna go ahead and spoil it, like he winds up. They get

1012
01:14:12.079 --> 01:14:16.760
into a situation where the girl he's
been protecting this whole time, who's formed

1013
01:14:16.760 --> 01:14:23.880
this very strong bond with this beautifully
told story, they believe they can cure

1014
01:14:24.600 --> 01:14:28.199
the zombieism. But the only way
to get the cure is basically to drain

1015
01:14:28.279 --> 01:14:30.840
her of blood, like to kill
her. I'm sorry, no, it's

1016
01:14:30.840 --> 01:14:34.279
because it's in her brain actually,
And he finds out about this and he's

1017
01:14:34.399 --> 01:14:39.239
like, fuck no, and he
kills everyone to stop them from doing it,

1018
01:14:40.039 --> 01:14:44.479
and in so doing kills the only
people of any idea how And we

1019
01:14:44.600 --> 01:14:46.359
did a whole series of podcasts on
the show, and so I'm not going

1020
01:14:46.399 --> 01:14:50.600
to reiterate it, but I think
the game the show to end the game

1021
01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:56.159
both do an incredible job of not
clearly saying he's right, not clearly saying

1022
01:14:56.199 --> 01:15:00.359
he's wrong, just saying here's what
he does, and making you be in

1023
01:15:00.439 --> 01:15:04.640
it and to watch it as a
TV show was powerful. But in the

1024
01:15:05.119 --> 01:15:11.560
game, which is like the thing
that the game does is the story itself,

1025
01:15:11.640 --> 01:15:15.800
is completely on rails. You don't
get to make choices. You get

1026
01:15:15.840 --> 01:15:18.119
to like play out the things they
do, but you don't get to make

1027
01:15:18.239 --> 01:15:24.199
choices. And you know, we
talked about how when you get to that

1028
01:15:24.279 --> 01:15:28.880
point in the game and you realize
not only is this what Joel gonna do,

1029
01:15:30.159 --> 01:15:32.600
but you have to be the one
pushing the buttons as he does it,

1030
01:15:32.760 --> 01:15:36.079
and you are. You are therefore
kind of complicit in his story in

1031
01:15:36.159 --> 01:15:41.399
a way. It's a kind of
storytelling that a lot of people hate it,

1032
01:15:41.560 --> 01:15:45.399
and I totally understand, because if
you're really into like wanting to control

1033
01:15:45.520 --> 01:15:49.279
the narrative, this is not for
you. But the idea of telling a

1034
01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:53.800
story about a person who's driven to
do what I think are supposed to be

1035
01:15:53.880 --> 01:15:57.079
understood as terrible things, and that's
not the only thing by any means,

1036
01:15:57.880 --> 01:16:00.560
but where you have to be complicit
in that way because you're playing the character.

1037
01:16:01.840 --> 01:16:05.359
I'd never seen someone use a video
game as that kind of medium,

1038
01:16:05.399 --> 01:16:09.319
and I thought it was, you
know, maybe not the way most I

1039
01:16:09.319 --> 01:16:12.000
don't think. I really don't want
most video games to be like that.

1040
01:16:12.079 --> 01:16:15.000
I don't want most stories to be
like that. But as a way to

1041
01:16:15.279 --> 01:16:18.279
use this media to tell a kind
of story in a way no other media

1042
01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:21.880
really could, I thought it was
utterly brilliant. Yeah, I find I

1043
01:16:23.039 --> 01:16:28.439
think I find that deeply offensive and
disgusting, but you know, interesting,

1044
01:16:28.720 --> 01:16:33.359
like something can be brilliant and disgusting, you know, like like flying the

1045
01:16:33.800 --> 01:16:36.319
trade Center. I was like,
oh, that's clever. You know that

1046
01:16:36.439 --> 01:16:40.199
that? Yeah, I wouldn't have
thought of that. I mean, you

1047
01:16:40.279 --> 01:16:42.239
know, killing a lot of people. I'm not a fan of that,

1048
01:16:42.439 --> 01:16:45.319
you know, I mean that was
that took a lot of you know,

1049
01:16:45.560 --> 01:16:49.119
a lot of science to make that
happen. But you know, not good,

1050
01:16:49.399 --> 01:16:53.560
not a good thing to do.
Yeah. The whole time I was

1051
01:16:53.560 --> 01:16:55.560
describing, you know, I was
like, oh, Paul, yeah,

1052
01:16:55.560 --> 01:16:59.680
Paul, yeah, every part of
this. So first of all, I

1053
01:16:59.760 --> 01:17:03.239
probably, like I would ask her, I'd be like, so, you

1054
01:17:03.359 --> 01:17:08.239
know, how do you feel about
getting murdered in order to save everybody?

1055
01:17:08.399 --> 01:17:12.399
Like it's your call, like very
clear, like no pressure, you know,

1056
01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:15.640
it's up to you. What do
you want to do? You know,

1057
01:17:15.039 --> 01:17:18.359
Like I believe an agency in that
way. But like if she was

1058
01:17:18.439 --> 01:17:20.199
like, yeah, no, no, I'm not. I don't want you

1059
01:17:20.279 --> 01:17:23.319
to let them do that, be
like oh okay, pop pop you know,

1060
01:17:23.600 --> 01:17:27.680
yeah in the game, I think
in the in but the game is

1061
01:17:27.720 --> 01:17:30.199
the show. But pretty in the
game as it matters here of the agency,

1062
01:17:30.800 --> 01:17:32.800
she has said on a number of
times that she's willing to die if

1063
01:17:32.840 --> 01:17:39.279
it leads to the cure. Hmm
oh okay, then he's like making a

1064
01:17:39.359 --> 01:17:43.359
bad decision in my view. But
yeah, I think what is clear is

1065
01:17:43.399 --> 01:17:45.039
that he is not doing it for
her right, he's in it for him.

1066
01:17:45.600 --> 01:17:48.079
I mean, part of what it's
about is how love can be incredibly

1067
01:17:48.159 --> 01:17:51.720
possessive, Like in that way,
it's a wonderful parallel with the Anakin.

1068
01:17:54.119 --> 01:17:57.680
But it's also like you've seen him. He I'm going to spoil all of

1069
01:17:57.680 --> 01:18:00.600
this. He has a daughter die
at the very beginning of sure, sure,

1070
01:18:00.640 --> 01:18:02.560
so you understand like where he's coming
from and whatever. Yeah, it

1071
01:18:02.680 --> 01:18:06.159
sounds like a cliche, but it's
incredibly well told. Yeah. Yeah,

1072
01:18:06.159 --> 01:18:11.399
I mean most cliches, like somewhere
along the line were a good story and

1073
01:18:11.439 --> 01:18:14.199
then people just kept telling the same
story, and it's like if you can

1074
01:18:14.239 --> 01:18:15.880
do it while, you can do
it well. But yeah, I mean,

1075
01:18:15.960 --> 01:18:19.159
to me, like the point of
a video game is like that you

1076
01:18:19.359 --> 01:18:23.359
have. I mean, I was
gonna when you started going to stories,

1077
01:18:23.439 --> 01:18:25.279
I was like going to say that. You know. One of my other

1078
01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:28.439
pet projects that I'm definitely never gonna
do, well, not definitely but almost

1079
01:18:28.479 --> 01:18:31.880
definitely, is like I feel like
someone should make a maybe an animated series

1080
01:18:32.319 --> 01:18:34.600
of Mora Wind, you know.
I mean, you could do it with

1081
01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:38.479
like any of the Elder scrolls.
But like, to me, the great

1082
01:18:38.520 --> 01:18:41.520
thing about a video game, like
you know. That one in particular is

1083
01:18:41.560 --> 01:18:45.000
like how open ended it can be, how the player gets to make choices.

1084
01:18:45.319 --> 01:18:50.800
So the idea of railroading really bothers
me, you know. I mean

1085
01:18:51.159 --> 01:18:55.840
one the other thing that I thought
at first was like Ninja Guiten, you

1086
01:18:55.960 --> 01:19:00.399
know, which was like one of
the first games available in the US to

1087
01:19:00.600 --> 01:19:02.920
feature like a lot like cut scenes. It might have even been the first

1088
01:19:02.960 --> 01:19:05.000
one, but like, you know, there's a story, you just play

1089
01:19:05.039 --> 01:19:10.319
through the story. But also you're
just like, you know, a little

1090
01:19:10.520 --> 01:19:14.960
eight bit character side scrolling, just
killing everything on screen, you know.

1091
01:19:15.119 --> 01:19:16.800
So it's like it's a it's a
very specific type of game. You're not

1092
01:19:16.880 --> 01:19:19.720
making moral choices, Oh do it? Well? This guy? Actually I

1093
01:19:19.840 --> 01:19:23.199
wonder his motivation? Should I be
killing him? No? You just you

1094
01:19:23.359 --> 01:19:27.520
just stab everything, you know.
Yeah, so that's a little different.

1095
01:19:27.640 --> 01:19:30.920
But like, yeah, I do
feel like somebody was describing to me another

1096
01:19:31.000 --> 01:19:34.359
game where you know, you have
to do something and then it's actually like

1097
01:19:34.520 --> 01:19:39.640
the opposite story. You know,
the protagonist has a character that they care

1098
01:19:39.680 --> 01:19:43.920
about, and then they have to
let them die or something in order to

1099
01:19:44.840 --> 01:19:47.159
save everyone else, and that's the
choice that they make. And I think

1100
01:19:47.319 --> 01:19:50.079
you don't get a choice, but
you have to like press the button,

1101
01:19:50.600 --> 01:19:54.600
you know, And like, I
don't know, I think that's kind of

1102
01:19:55.039 --> 01:19:58.359
just like messed up and manipulative and
gross. Like I don't like it.

1103
01:19:58.600 --> 01:20:01.600
I haven't played either games, so
maybe the actual exact context of the game

1104
01:20:01.640 --> 01:20:05.920
I might feel differently, but like, it's certainly clever. It's certainly a

1105
01:20:06.000 --> 01:20:11.640
way to get people to experience things, you know, it's interesting. I

1106
01:20:11.720 --> 01:20:15.680
think the best way I can describe
it is a discordant note. Like most

1107
01:20:15.760 --> 01:20:17.680
of the time it just sounds like
someone hit a string wrong, all right,

1108
01:20:17.760 --> 01:20:21.199
right, Yeah, but sometimes in
a very particular circumstance, it can

1109
01:20:21.319 --> 01:20:25.680
work, you know, because yeah, I have stopped playing video games when

1110
01:20:25.720 --> 01:20:29.079
I realized that I was going to
have to do something I didn't I didn't

1111
01:20:29.239 --> 01:20:30.399
want as a player to do,
or didn't believe the character would do.

1112
01:20:31.159 --> 01:20:34.239
And I feel like, to me, this is kind of the person because

1113
01:20:34.279 --> 01:20:39.439
yeah, I love Balder's Gate,
particularly because it's basically Skyrim in Dungeons and

1114
01:20:39.479 --> 01:20:42.800
Dragons. Well, okay, like
it is that I've tried not to tell

1115
01:20:42.800 --> 01:20:45.960
you about how awesome it is because
I know you don't have time to really

1116
01:20:46.039 --> 01:20:49.960
get into this game think so deep
into this, no doubt, no doubt,

1117
01:20:50.560 --> 01:20:53.439
but like yeah, I'm like,
yeah, that is the kind of

1118
01:20:53.479 --> 01:20:57.920
game I love so much. And
that's when I realized that the on railsness

1119
01:20:58.119 --> 01:21:01.840
of the game is very intentional,
like and they're using that as a way

1120
01:21:01.880 --> 01:21:04.159
to be like, we know this
is going to make you uncomfortable, right

1121
01:21:04.359 --> 01:21:11.840
right, But that's because like it's
not it's not a video game, it

1122
01:21:12.000 --> 01:21:15.000
is a playable novel. Yeah,
Like I think they really were trying to

1123
01:21:15.039 --> 01:21:18.000
do And yeah, I hope that
doesn't become a very popular genre because I

1124
01:21:18.039 --> 01:21:23.039
really only want to watch maybe one
over three years and only if it's done

1125
01:21:23.159 --> 01:21:26.880
really well. Yeah yeah, yeah. But in the fact that the game

1126
01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:30.119
came out probably like eight years ago
and it hasn't tried I mean maybe there

1127
01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:31.000
are many games that have tried to
do it since, but I haven't heard

1128
01:21:31.039 --> 01:21:33.880
of them. I mean the game
I just mentioned, which is a very

1129
01:21:34.000 --> 01:21:38.640
well known game, but I won't
spoil it in case people want to experience

1130
01:21:38.680 --> 01:21:42.760
it. Fair fair. Yeah,
So I think, Yeah, that's all

1131
01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:45.920
of twenty twenty three in an hour
and twenty three minutes. Yeah, that

1132
01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:49.199
was the whole year. Nothing else
happened I'm good, Paul. Where can

1133
01:21:49.199 --> 01:21:55.880
people find more of you? I
guess I like tweet on Twitter as Zen

1134
01:21:55.960 --> 01:22:00.279
Madman, and I really hope by
that soon there will be like other places

1135
01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:04.079
that people can find me. I
technically have a website, Zendmadman dot com.

1136
01:22:04.800 --> 01:22:08.479
There's still not much there, but
if you're listening to this sometime in

1137
01:22:08.520 --> 01:22:10.800
twenty twenty four, maybe there will
be. I don't know. You can

1138
01:22:10.880 --> 01:22:13.680
like roll the dice in it every
now and then if you want. Paul

1139
01:22:13.720 --> 01:22:15.520
and I are talking about a couple
of podcasts we might launch. We are,

1140
01:22:16.520 --> 01:22:19.960
I think in a state of talking
about it. I think we've been

1141
01:22:20.039 --> 01:22:25.880
either creating podcasts together or talking about
podcasts we might create together for about seven

1142
01:22:25.960 --> 01:22:29.399
or eight years. So it doesn't
mean the new podcast is coming by any

1143
01:22:29.439 --> 01:22:30.520
means, but there may well be
some good things, so keep your eye

1144
01:22:30.560 --> 01:22:33.600
out for that. In twenty twenty
four, certainly there should be some interesting

1145
01:22:33.640 --> 01:22:36.560
poker content come from Paul. Of
course, I'm the Ethical Panda. You

1146
01:22:36.600 --> 01:22:40.720
can find all of my content at
the Ethical Panda dot com or by going

1147
01:22:40.760 --> 01:22:44.079
to true Story FM and searching for
either of my two podcasts, this the

1148
01:22:44.159 --> 01:22:48.319
Superhero Ethics Podcast or the newly renamed
Star Wars Generations podcast, which I thought

1149
01:22:48.439 --> 01:22:53.199
was mostly going to be me talking
to two millennial or gen zers and then

1150
01:22:53.279 --> 01:22:57.279
calling me an old person for the
way I think of Star Wars. Mostly

1151
01:22:57.319 --> 01:23:00.000
though, it's the two of them
arguing and me threatening to turn this podcast

1152
01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:01.520
asked around if the kids in the
backseat can't stop fighting with each other.

1153
01:23:01.800 --> 01:23:04.760
So it's a lot of fun.
We're relooking a lot of things. Paul

1154
01:23:04.760 --> 01:23:08.680
will hopefully be able to come be
a guest on some part of that podcast

1155
01:23:08.680 --> 01:23:11.000
at some point again soon. It
was so good to have you on this,

1156
01:23:11.720 --> 01:23:13.359
but of course you can check all
that out. We love what you

1157
01:23:13.439 --> 01:23:15.479
think. What are your thoughts about
what twenty twenty three was all about?

1158
01:23:15.520 --> 01:23:18.840
We'd love to hear more of them. All the contact information is in the

1159
01:23:18.840 --> 01:23:21.439
show notes on the website, and
of course the best thing you can do

1160
01:23:21.600 --> 01:23:26.039
is become a member five dollars a
month, fifty five dollars a year,

1161
01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:29.600
AD free content, bonus content.
We're about to do a bonus section about

1162
01:23:29.640 --> 01:23:32.479
twenty twenty four and I'll see you
just get to support the podcast and it's

1163
01:23:32.640 --> 01:23:35.159
a great, great thing to do. So on behalf of myself Paul,

1164
01:23:35.239 --> 01:23:41.479
thank you all so much for listening. Stay Classy, Gotham class