WEBVTT 1 00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:31.839 Hello, everyone, Welcome to a special edition of The Pathway. Chili. 2 00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:36.159 Ashley is not with us this week because she is off celebrating Thanksgiving, and 3 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:40.280 since Jewels and I are Canadian and don't celebrate Thanksgiving, this week, we 4 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:43.439 were still free, so we decided to do an episode with just the two 5 00:00:43.439 --> 00:00:47.560 of us where I will be sharing the details about a case with Jewels that 6 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:52.000 she's not familiar with and she will offer her comments. And this week I'm 7 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:56.000 going to be doing the nineteen eighty five murders of Harold and Thelma Swain, 8 00:00:56.679 --> 00:01:00.759 which is an interesting one because it was on the early days of Unsownes. 9 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.319 It wound up getting solved, but then it turned out to be wrongful conviction 10 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:07.840 and the man put in prison for the crime was set free a few years 11 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:12.519 ago, so this is technically unsolved again. And Jules, have you ever 12 00:01:12.519 --> 00:01:17.400 heard of this case before? I've never heard of this case. When you 13 00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:22.239 tell me about it with regards to the Unsolved Mysteries episode, it might ring 14 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.799 a bell. But when you told me about this initially, I was like, 15 00:01:25.799 --> 00:01:26.879 Okay, I'm not going to google it, I'm not going to look 16 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:32.040 into it. And I think you told me Undisclosed did an entire season on 17 00:01:32.079 --> 00:01:34.799 this case, or at least a couple episodes. I was really excited because 18 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:38.480 I'm like, there must be something really good here. And I love a 19 00:01:38.519 --> 00:01:44.640 wrongful conviction case because at the end there's somebody who actually gets their freedom back. 20 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.359 But it's equal parts inspirational and infuriating. So I can't wait to hear 21 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.640 all about the story. And since you mentioned Undisclosed, one of the reasons 22 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.560 I wanted to revisit this is because I originally covered on the Trail went cold 23 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:02.079 in early July of two thousand eighteen, and by sheer coincidence, a few 24 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:07.919 weeks later, I discovered that Undisclosed was devoting an entire season to it because 25 00:02:07.919 --> 00:02:12.479 they had done a deep dive investigation, so of course they released a lot 26 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:16.439 more information than my episode had. But to my shock, I actually got 27 00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:22.080 invited to be a guest on one of their after shows with Colin Miller and 28 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.960 Susan Simpson, where we discussed the case. And of course it was intimidating 29 00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:29.479 because they're brilliant legal experts and I'm not, so I had to try to 30 00:02:29.520 --> 00:02:31.919 sound smart next to them. But the good news is is that their hard 31 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:37.000 work on this case did pay off since the conviction was overturned, and there 32 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:40.280 have been a lot of new developments in the case in recent years. I 33 00:02:40.280 --> 00:02:45.319 don't think you had to pretend to be smart or to sound smart, okay, 34 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:47.520 because Ashley and I both have PhDs, and I think you're smarter than 35 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:53.439 both of us, So I don't think necessarily an education level is going to 36 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:58.240 be indicative of just how intelligent an individual is, and I think you are 37 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:00.680 one of the most intelligent people that I have ever met. Oh, thank 38 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.520 you very much. I appreciate that, and yes, Colin and Simpson told 39 00:03:04.520 --> 00:03:07.400 me I did a good job as well. But oh, before we start, 40 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:09.719 one final detail, I wanted to mention a funny story is that when 41 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:14.800 we were recording the Undisclosed episode, right at the very end, as I 42 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:19.319 was talking about my podcast, the fire alarm went off in my apartment buildings 43 00:03:19.560 --> 00:03:22.879 for a fire drill, so we had to cut the recording short. And 44 00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:25.439 thankfully it happened at the end of the recording and not the beginning. Because 45 00:03:25.479 --> 00:03:30.080 I know that when we record the path went Chili will sometimes have to stop 46 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.919 because jewels will have like sirens or a motorcycle or a protest outside her window, 47 00:03:35.240 --> 00:03:38.319 and then we have to pause before until the noise goes away. Yeah, 48 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:42.560 it's super frustrating when it starts at the beginning, but at least it 49 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:46.719 was at the tail end. But I guess that's just part of modern condo 50 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:51.560 living. Things like that happen within the building and they're completely outside your control 51 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:55.400 and nobody knows that you're recording a podcast, and it's a big inconvenience. 52 00:03:55.879 --> 00:03:59.759 Exactly. Yes, So when people listen to our final episodes, they have 53 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:02.240 no idea how many times we have to stop and start again because of little 54 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:08.840 glitches like that. So this particular case takes place in nineteen eighty five in 55 00:04:08.879 --> 00:04:13.039 the small town of Waverley, Georgia, which is located in Camden County, 56 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:17.519 and it's a predominantly African American community, so our two victims were also African 57 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:21.639 American. It was a sixty six year old Harold Swain and his sixty three 58 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:26.600 year old wife, Thelma Swayin, who had been married for forty three years 59 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:31.319 at this point. Harold as a retired pulpwood worker and at this particular point 60 00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:35.680 he is the deacon at the Rising Daughters Baptist church and is known for being 61 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:41.040 a very well liked and well respected community leader. On the evening of March 62 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:46.199 the eleventh, the Swains were holding their weekly Bible study with nine female parishioners 63 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:49.160 at their church, and at around eight fifty pm, one of the women 64 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:53.920 there, Vanzola Williams, had to excuse herself because she had to leave early 65 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:58.519 because of a previous engagement. But when Vanzola walked out into the vestibule, 66 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:01.800 she encountered a white man whom she described as being in his twenties and having 67 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:06.399 light colored, shoulder length hair, and the man told Vanzola, can you 68 00:05:06.920 --> 00:05:11.759 tell this guy that I want to speak to him? Before he pointed at 69 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:15.040 Harold. So Vanzoli went back told Harold that there was a man who wanted 70 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:18.680 to see him in the vestibule, and then she escorted him back there before 71 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:23.920 leaving the church. But it was only a few seconds later when everyone in 72 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:28.199 the church heard a bunch of gunshots, and when Thelma heard that, she 73 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:31.319 started a panic. She ran into the vestibule herself and she wound up being 74 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:36.040 shot. So the other parishioners were just terrified and ran back into Harold's office 75 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:41.279 to hide and they tried calling the police, but it turned out that the 76 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:46.199 phone lines had actually at the church had actually previously been cut, meaning that 77 00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:49.000 the killer likely did this and it was a premeditated murder. So one of 78 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:53.600 the parishioners had to sneak out the window go to a nearby convenience store to 79 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:57.639 call the police, and when they arrived, they found Harold and Thelma both 80 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:02.519 shot to death in the vestibule. Wow, I can't imagine the trauma that 81 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:08.639 would inflict on all the parishioners. Regardless of what your feelings are on religion, 82 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:12.240 the church should be a sacred place. This is a place where you're 83 00:06:12.279 --> 00:06:15.399 doing a Bible study. He's a deacon of the church and his wife goes 84 00:06:15.399 --> 00:06:19.600 to help him and she gets shot as well. I mean, was this 85 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:25.800 just indiscriminate, like we must eliminate all witnesses type of a thing with regards 86 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:30.680 to Thelma in your opinion, I don't think so, because Vanzola Williams was 87 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:33.240 allowed to leave right after she brought Harold to the vestibule. Like this was 88 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:38.360 a direct witness who communicated with the killer, but he didn't seem concerned about 89 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:43.279 her. He only cared about Harold and then and for for all I know, 90 00:06:43.399 --> 00:06:46.639 he probably never intended on killing Thelma and only shot her because she happened 91 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.959 to run into the vestibule to help her husband. But he just wasn't concerned 92 00:06:49.959 --> 00:06:54.160 about any of the other witnesses. And then he just fled the scene, 93 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:59.879 which gave off the impression that Harold was intentionally targeted. So did Venzola get 94 00:07:00.160 --> 00:07:02.399 good look at his face? Oh? Yes, And this is going to 95 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:06.560 be one of the most controversial elements of this whole case, because she will 96 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:11.160 provide a description, but that as the years go by, she'll change her 97 00:07:11.240 --> 00:07:15.480 story a little bit when identifying this man. Did the other parishioners get a 98 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.879 good look at him when Thelma went out to go see what was going on 99 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:25.800 with Harold in the vestibule or was the area that they were in like pretty 100 00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:30.240 far away kind of like sequestered from the vestibule. Well, obviously van Zola 101 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:31.519 was the one who got the best look, but a lot of the other 102 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:38.120 parishioners would report having seen him through the doorway and the vestibule and provide a 103 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:43.160 description. But we've talked numerous times over the course of this podcast, how 104 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:48.279 eyewitness descriptions in cold cases can sometimes be very unreliable, and this turned out 105 00:07:48.279 --> 00:07:51.800 to be a case study in that because as I was doing my research, 106 00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:58.759 I found a original police report which put a list of all the eyewitness descriptions 107 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:03.160 provided by each of the eye witnesses who are there, and it's pretty shocking 108 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.600 just how much they differ, Like they'll provide different hair colors, different heights, 109 00:08:07.639 --> 00:08:13.160 different clothing descriptions. And what's also shocking is that Vanzola like they would 110 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.759 find a pair of glasses in the vestibule and that they assume belong to the 111 00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:22.000 killer. But Vanzola Williams claimed that the killer was not wearing glasses. Yet 112 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.600 some of these other witnesses who are a farther distance away, if you look 113 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:31.000 at that report, they described the killer as wearing glasses. So if you 114 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:33.639 can't even get a consistent account of a detail like that, then you know 115 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:39.679 that eyewitness testimony is very unreliable. The one thing that they have going for 116 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:45.639 them in this case is the fact that there are multiple eyewitnesses, So I 117 00:08:45.720 --> 00:08:50.240 suppose what you could look for would be commonalities. It's kind of like the 118 00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:54.399 jelly bean jar when you have one person guess how many jelly beans are in 119 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:56.759 a jar, and they're going to get it wrong. But you take the 120 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.039 average over like one hundred people and they get it within a few jelly beans. 121 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:07.759 So maybe if you have like ten people or five people saying he was 122 00:09:07.840 --> 00:09:11.759 wearing glasses, then maybe there is a good chance that Vanzola Williams, although 123 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.559 she had a close up look, maybe she was the one who was wrong. 124 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:20.720 That is true because Vanzola would later change her story and then say that 125 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:22.759 yes, the killer was wearing glasses. But it could just be one of 126 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:28.360 those things where it was such a traumatic experience that her memory right afterwards, 127 00:09:28.399 --> 00:09:31.559 she just wasn't thinking about something like that and gave an inaccurate description. But 128 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.440 when you find out that like multiple witnesses cannot even agree if the killer was 129 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.879 wearing glasses, then you know that you should never rely on eyewitness testimony as 130 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:46.519 your primary evidence, and certainly not when they change their eyewitness testimony, which 131 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:52.399 is typically never for nefarious purposes. It's because they would conflate the information that 132 00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:56.000 other people have been giving them, especially like law enforcement. I'm sure in 133 00:09:56.039 --> 00:10:00.799 this case when they're like, well, other witnesses eyewitnesses had seen eyeglasses, 134 00:10:01.080 --> 00:10:05.200 and when you've heard that over and over and over again, you can then 135 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:09.840 your memory becomes malleable and you conflate those details, thinking, well, maybe 136 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.720 I do remember him wearing glasses, when that just isn't the case. So 137 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.679 it's just a big old mess, exactly. And that's probably what I think 138 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:22.120 happened with Maanzola, where she was convinced at first he didn't have glasses, 139 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.879 but as the years went on and police and other eyewitnesses said that the man 140 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.960 did, that's what compelled her to change her story, but it wasn't for 141 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:33.399 nefarious reasons. Now, talking more about the glasses, they were pretty unique 142 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:39.000 because they had very thick lenses, which meant that it was probably they had 143 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:43.080 a prescription for a far sided person. And the frame of the glasses appeared 144 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:46.600 to have been poked with a welding torch, and the ear pieces did not 145 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:50.480 match, as one of the ear pieces was wrapped in tape. So these 146 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:54.960 were pretty much makeshift glasses that had been pieced together from pieces of multiple glasses, 147 00:10:56.360 --> 00:10:58.639 which seemed to suggest that whoever this person was, they were not something 148 00:10:58.679 --> 00:11:03.879 with a someone with a lot of money who could afford its prescription for a 149 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:07.919 decent pair, and of course they likely left him behind the scene an obvious 150 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:11.919 panic, because it's been speculated that the killer got into a struggle with Harold 151 00:11:11.919 --> 00:11:16.480 before he shot him, and it's possible that his glasses fell off and he 152 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.559 forgot to pick them up back up before he fled the church. I know 153 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:24.879 that when the man first showed up, nobody thought that there was anything unusual 154 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.320 about him, because the church was located next to Highway seventeen and it was 155 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:33.960 very common for transience to stop by who would ask for handouts or a free 156 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.360 meal. So I think Benzola figured that, well, this guy needed some 157 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:41.080 money and he's just wanted to ask Harold if he could get a meal or 158 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:43.600 some cash or something like that. But then when they checked Harold's pocket, 159 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:48.200 they discovered that he still had three hundred dollars in cash in there, So 160 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.960 it seemed obvious that robbery was not the motive for the crime, and that 161 00:11:52.039 --> 00:11:54.840 he was probably specifically targeted. And of course, since he was such a 162 00:11:54.879 --> 00:12:01.039 predominant leader in the African American community, they start of wondering if this might 163 00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:07.519 have been a hate crime. Did van Zola independent of the kind of put 164 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:13.440 together glasses, or from somebody who would likely be of lower socioeconomic status or 165 00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:20.360 just maybe extremely frugal. Did she say that the clothing that the individual that 166 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.360 she encountered that was going to see Harold, that that would have been somebody 167 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:31.200 who was transient. Did she mention the clothing, did they have a particular 168 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:35.360 smell? Did they seem unwashed? Did she give any details like that? 169 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:39.519 Because she was up close and personal, she didn't really say anything about the 170 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:43.519 clothing. I assumed it was just nothing distinct about it. The only thing 171 00:12:43.559 --> 00:12:48.159 she really described was some scuffed snakeskin boots that he was wearing That would become 172 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:54.159 a big part of the investigation later on. Snake skin boots. Doesn't that 173 00:12:54.200 --> 00:13:00.279 seem like an odd textile for shoes for someone who's transient. Yes, Like, 174 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:03.000 as the case goes on, it becomes very unlikely that the killer was 175 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:07.320 a transient, Like it was probably not a person with like a lot of 176 00:13:07.679 --> 00:13:09.600 money to their name, but they probably did have a home and a job 177 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:16.360 and led a regular life. But I think they examined the transient angle later 178 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:22.360 on and then later discounted it. So the next major development would occur in 179 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:28.360 July, about four months after the crime took place, when a man named 180 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.840 Donnie Barantine, who originally hailed from Florida, was pulled over by the police 181 00:13:31.919 --> 00:13:37.639 in Telfair County, Georgia, and he had a total of two accomplices with 182 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:41.320 him, and they found a whole bunch of unregistered weapons inside the trunk, 183 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:46.159 including a submachine gun. It turned out that Barentine and these men originally hailed 184 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:50.480 from Marianna, Florida, and one of the men who he was arrested with, 185 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:56.519 named Jeff Kettrell, said that I think he was probably sharing the story 186 00:13:56.559 --> 00:13:58.639 because he was hoping to use it to get out of his own legal troubles 187 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:03.799 for being with the guns. But he claimed that a couple months earlier, 188 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:09.720 Barentine had showed up at a party in Florida with an unidentified accomplice and supposedly 189 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:13.879 started drunkingly waving a pistol around while bragging that he had murdered a black preacher 190 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:20.039 and his wife in at a Georgia church. And in retrospect, Kittrell believed 191 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:22.919 that these two men might have been that they might have been hair, these 192 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:28.080 two victims might have been harold and fell with Swain. It turned out when 193 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:31.720 they questioned Barentine, he initially denied ever doing that, but then they found 194 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:37.000 like three other witnesses for the party who corroborated that, yes, Barentine had 195 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.080 bragged while he was drunk about murdering a preacher and his wife. So Barentine 196 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:43.440 then changed his story and says, oh, yeah, I did say that, 197 00:14:43.519 --> 00:14:45.759 but I was just kidding. I had read about the murders in the 198 00:14:45.799 --> 00:14:50.279 papers and just felt like bragging about it. Weird joke, pal, I 199 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:52.639 mean, even if he did say it, it's also a weird flex to 200 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:58.159 be bragging openly about murdering a preacher and his wife. I found it interesting 201 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:05.240 that he also out that that they were black. So was Barentine white? 202 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:09.320 He was, yes, Yeah. Did he seem like he was racist in 203 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:15.399 any way or him or his accomplice were. Was there like a point that 204 00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:18.360 they were drawing to the fact that they were black, like this was a 205 00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:24.120 motivating factor. Uh, It's never kind of been clarified if he was racist. 206 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:26.320 But he was a career criminal, so he was obviously not a good 207 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:31.440 guy. And I guess it is possible that he just because he was drunk 208 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:33.679 and he was on drugs. He just read about this murder in the papers 209 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:37.200 and then just decided to brag about it for fun. But we talked about 210 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.679 this a lot of the time. In other cases we cover when we hear 211 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:46.240 about people like supposedly confessing to committing murders and then when their question by police, 212 00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:46.879 they just said, oh, yeah, I said that, but I 213 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.799 was just kidding. And it's like, how many of us normal people will 214 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:56.399 just jokingly admit that we killed somebody so weird and no one is impressed, 215 00:15:56.480 --> 00:16:00.360 I promise you exactly, he murdered a preacher and his wife, Like, 216 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:04.879 no one's like, oh, wow, you're the man. Nobody said that. 217 00:16:04.960 --> 00:16:08.519 I just don't understand, Well, whatever motivate someone who say that, 218 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:12.519 unless they're just so proud of what they've done. It just seems like an 219 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:18.080 odd crime to attach yourself to just to be braggadocious, exactly. But it 220 00:16:18.080 --> 00:16:22.720 doesn't sound like this was a very high, high brow club and stuff, 221 00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:26.519 so it does not surprise me that maybe they just were the type of people 222 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.159 who like to brag about killing people just for fun at parties. But the 223 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:34.120 guy that was his accompliced when he was arrested. Jeff Kittrell. He claimed 224 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.440 that when they were pulled over with all the weapons in their vehicle, that 225 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.600 they had actually been on their way to make in Georgia to perform a hit 226 00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:45.399 on a drug dealer, and that they'd been given instructions to cut the phone 227 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.120 lines at the dealer's house, which, as you recall, is what happened 228 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:55.120 at the church right before Harold and Thelma were killed. And Kitrell would also 229 00:16:55.240 --> 00:17:00.879 say that he believed that Barentine may have murdered Harold Swain because Harold's son in 230 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.240 law was supposedly involved in drug dealing and had a drug debt to Barentine, 231 00:17:04.680 --> 00:17:10.240 and Kittrell suspected that Barentine wanted to kill Harold in order to lure his son 232 00:17:10.279 --> 00:17:12.839 in law out of hiding. But I don't really believe this story. I've 233 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:17.480 looked into the background of Harold's son in law and there's nothing to indicate that 234 00:17:17.559 --> 00:17:21.400 he was involved in drugs, and Jeff Kittrell is not a reliable witness, 235 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:26.359 so I have a feeling he completely made that story up. And that sounds 236 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:32.400 like an expensive endeavor. So you hire a hit man to go after the 237 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:37.160 father in law and the mother in law and hopes to draw him out, 238 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:41.039 But then you've got to pay the hit man for murdering those two people. 239 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:45.519 How big of a drug debt would he have had, So let's just say 240 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:48.480 that it was ten thousand dollars a person to kill somebody. Did he have 241 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:53.480 a drug debt greater than twenty grand? I freaking doubt it? Oh yeah, 242 00:17:53.519 --> 00:17:56.319 seriously. And it just seems like if you want the drug debt so 243 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:00.240 badly go after the son in law. It just seems like way too much 244 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.440 trouble to kill his father in law and his wife and his mother in law 245 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.039 and pretty much get all this publicity for a murder over the collection of a 246 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:11.079 drug debt. And do you really think it would draw him out if he 247 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:17.079 was in hiding and he was worried about being killed because he had this drug 248 00:18:17.119 --> 00:18:18.839 debt. Do you really think he's going to show up for their funerals if 249 00:18:18.839 --> 00:18:22.960 he knows that they were killed because of his drug debt? Exactly? Yes, 250 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:26.039 Like he's probably going to contact the authorities and want to be put into 251 00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:30.680 witness protection and hiding, and that's only going to increase your problems, and 252 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:37.319 you're not going to get the drug debt exactly. So despite this questionable story, 253 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:41.160 the police looked into Barentine as a suspect because when he was questioned about 254 00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:45.039 the same the Swayin murders, he failed a polygraph test and he did seem 255 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.440 to match the description of the man seen in the vestibule. They checked his 256 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.680 alibi time cards showed that he was at work in Marianna, Florida, until 257 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.839 three twenty nine that day, and since the murders took place at eight point 258 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.759 fifty, he still would have had enough time to make it there in time 259 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:04.720 to commit the murders. So they brought in van Zola Williams, who was 260 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:08.599 asked to look at a police lineup of Barentine, but even though she thought 261 00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:14.400 he resembled the shooter, she could not positively identify him. Both, like 262 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:19.160 we mentioned the scuff snake skin boots, apparently Barentine was wearing them during the 263 00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:23.160 police lineup and she thought they looked like the boots that the killer was wearing. 264 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.880 But it was also worth mentioning that she had originally described the killer as 265 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:32.039 having long hair, shoulder length hair, and by this point Barentine had short 266 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:34.519 hair, so it's possible that this kind of threw her off, but because 267 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:40.960 she was unable to make a positive identification, the local district attorney was reluctant 268 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:45.359 to file charges against Barentine because really the only evidence they had were the testimony 269 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:48.960 from the witnesses at the party who said that he had bragged about killing the 270 00:19:49.039 --> 00:19:53.519 Swains. But because they were kind of like criminals who had a history of 271 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:57.759 alcohol and drug issues, they were not reliable witnesses. So that's why the 272 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:03.599 local authorities thought that the evidence wasn't strong enough to file charges. But Baron 273 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:07.759 Tyne still did go to prison and wound up serving five years on the weapons 274 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:10.680 charges because of all the guns he was carrying when he was pulled over. 275 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:15.319 He sounds like a really bad guy who's out there, you know, with 276 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.079 submachine guns, and he's apparently was on his way to commit a hit. 277 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.200 So I don't really think that anybody is upset that he went to prison. 278 00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:29.680 But whether or not the change in haircut had something to do with Vanzola not 279 00:20:29.799 --> 00:20:34.200 being able to identify him, I don't know how popular scuff snakeskin boots would 280 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:38.640 have been, but I do think in Florida in the nineteen eighties they probably 281 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:42.240 would have been more popular than they are now. Exactly. Yeah, it 282 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:45.640 sounds like they were probably more common back then, so that wasn't used as 283 00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:51.400 conclusive evidence that Barentine was the shooter. So, like I said, the 284 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.279 case was shown on Unsolved Mysteries, I believe in late nineteen eighty eight. 285 00:20:55.400 --> 00:20:59.960 This was one of the earliest episodes of the show, and this would be 286 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.599 the source of controversy. This is one of the rare times when the Unsawd 287 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:08.880 Mysteries episode would actually play a big role in the investigation because when they had 288 00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:15.480 Robert Stack introduce it, he actually appeared on screen holding up the glasses that 289 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.359 the killer had left behind at the crime scene. And if you watch this 290 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:23.160 episode today, you're almost cringing because he is not actually wearing any gloves and 291 00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:29.559 here he is handling like evidence from a murder scene right here on national television. 292 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.440 When the case was originally investigated by the Camden County Sheriff's Office, they 293 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.119 had to get because they weren't used to dealing with homicides. They had to 294 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:42.400 get assistance from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and the lead investigator was an 295 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:47.200 agent named Joe Gregory, and he would later say that any when he watched 296 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:52.400 Unsolved Mysteries, his jaw was wide open because the Camden County Sheriff's Office had 297 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:56.920 not asked the GBI for permission to showcase the glasses on television, and there 298 00:21:56.960 --> 00:22:03.000 was apparently no chain of custody to make sure that certain people were like handling 299 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:07.440 the glasses and signing them over when they were appeared on television. And many 300 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.279 years later it would turn out that the glasses wound up going missing, and 301 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:15.160 the Candy County shriffs Office would say, well, the last time we remember 302 00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:18.400 seeing it was when we gave them to the producers of Unsolved Mysteries, and 303 00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:22.559 the producers would say, no, we're pretty certain that we gave the glasses 304 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.799 back to you after the episode air and after we were done filming it. 305 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:30.119 So these glasses just vanished without a trace, and no one knows what happened 306 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:33.559 to them. And it was all because the Sheriff's office did not establish a 307 00:22:33.599 --> 00:22:38.440 proper chain of custody and these glasses mysteriously went missing after they were shown on 308 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.160 TV. Okay, so I don't think I knew much about this case, 309 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:48.559 but I have heard this specific detail because it was just so preposterous that somehow 310 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:52.559 Robert Stack would end up with these glasses. They could be the linch pin 311 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.960 in the case, they could have DNA evidence, and now there's no chain 312 00:22:56.000 --> 00:23:00.160 of custody and the glasses are missing. It is just mind boggling that this 313 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:04.119 would happen. But I guess when we're looking back from twenty twenty three, 314 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:11.440 rules with evidence and the way that investigations are approached is very very different. 315 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.960 I mean not to give them a pass, but I think that some police 316 00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:21.079 departments played it a little more loose and if there was the opportunity to get 317 00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:26.960 a case exposure on unsolved mysteries, then maybe they would kind of breach a 318 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.160 boundary or two in order to make it happen. But you'd think that unsolved 319 00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:36.119 mysteries would also just go and get permission before they put those glasses on television 320 00:23:36.720 --> 00:23:40.480 or that you know, Robert Stack would have been instructed to wear latex gloves 321 00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:44.559 or some kind of gloves. Well, they technically did get permission, they 322 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.400 got it from the Camden County Sheriff's office, but like they were working with 323 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.039 the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, and I know the GBI said that, yeah, 324 00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:53.480 if they had asked us, we would not have given them permission. 325 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:57.000 We would have just maybe shown a photograph of the glasses. Like I can 326 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:02.680 understand displaying the glasses because they were unique. They were packed together from among 327 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.960 number of different pieces, so I can understand putting them on television. But 328 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:11.039 you need to establish better chain of custody before you do that. And I 329 00:24:11.079 --> 00:24:14.240 know they were not thinking of DNA evidence back in nineteen eighty eight, but 330 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.119 on the Undisclosed podcast Susan Simpson even made a joke that if they found the 331 00:24:18.119 --> 00:24:22.240 glasses today and tested them for DNA, they would probably just identify that the 332 00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:26.880 killer was Robert Stack because he held them. That's true. And I guess 333 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:33.400 when you've got two different law enforcement agencies who are basically investigating this and you 334 00:24:33.519 --> 00:24:37.000 ask one of them, it's like when you ask mom or dad and you 335 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:38.960 get like a yes from mom, because you know Dad's going to say no. 336 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:42.759 So it's like, better asked the Comney County Sheriff's Department. Maybe we've 337 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:47.960 got a better chance of getting a yes than the GBI. It's just really 338 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.559 unfortunate because they could have had that evidence on there. It's a pretty good 339 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:56.880 chance if they would have preserved them properly. Because your glasses have a lot 340 00:24:56.920 --> 00:25:00.880 of skin cells and sweat, they're rubbing up against you. Sometimes you get 341 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.920 a hair caught in there. I mean, it could have been a gold 342 00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:10.359 mine for DNA with today's technology, but unfortunately they're basically a moot point now 343 00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:14.200 exactly. And I have a feeling that the person who's about to go to 344 00:25:14.240 --> 00:25:18.000 prison may not have been wrongfully convicted if they had still had the glasses as 345 00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:22.200 evidenced by the time he went on trial. So the unsolved mystery segment did 346 00:25:22.200 --> 00:25:26.920 not lead to any new developments in the case, and it would continue to 347 00:25:26.960 --> 00:25:30.599 remain unsolved for another decade. And it was not until nineteen ninety eight when 348 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.599 the Camden's County Sheriff's Office, after they had made a bunch of high profile 349 00:25:34.720 --> 00:25:38.640 drug busts, they suddenly had a whole bunch of new drug money in their 350 00:25:38.680 --> 00:25:42.960 possessions, so they decided to use it to hire a cold case investigator named 351 00:25:44.000 --> 00:25:48.319 Dale Bundy, who decided to take a fresh look at the case. He 352 00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:52.119 started reinterviewing witnesses and one of the people he talked to was a woman named 353 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.920 Cora Fisher, who had been a witness at the church on the night the 354 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.240 murders took place, and even though she wasn't as close to the killer as 355 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.799 van Zola Williams, she said that she still got a decent look at him 356 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:08.599 through the vestibule doorway from behind a pew, and when Bundy interviewed her, 357 00:26:08.920 --> 00:26:14.240 she made a surprising statement saying that she had recently been shown a photograph of 358 00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:18.440 a man whom she believed was the killer. And of course this was complete 359 00:26:18.440 --> 00:26:22.559 news to Bundy. He didn't know of anyone who was going around showing photographs 360 00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:26.240 to eyewitnesses, and it turned out that the photograph had been shown to Kora 361 00:26:26.319 --> 00:26:30.599 by a woman with a great name, Jane Beaver, who had come like 362 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:36.559 an amateur sleuth in this whole affair and pretty much cause a lot of issues 363 00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:41.319 with the investigation. It would later turn out that Jane Biaver the photograph she 364 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:47.000 shown was a man named Dennis Perry, who had been her daughter Carol Ann's 365 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.119 ex boyfriend, though they had broken up I think a couple months before the 366 00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:55.480 Swain murders took place. But for some reason, Jane got it into her 367 00:26:55.559 --> 00:27:00.319 head that Dennis was the killer, and for some reason, she really really 368 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:03.319 did not like him. I don't know the details of how his relationship with 369 00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:07.559 Carol Ane ended, but I think that Jane must have had an obsessive hatred 370 00:27:07.640 --> 00:27:11.079 for him, that she not only was convinced that he was the killer, 371 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:15.599 but she was going around of her own volition talking to eyewitnesses from this crime 372 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:21.519 and showing his photograph and apparently during a private meeting Cora Fisher looked at a 373 00:27:21.559 --> 00:27:23.920 photograph of Perry and said, oh my god, I think that's the man 374 00:27:25.000 --> 00:27:29.640 that I saw at the church that night. Ugh, this is all kinds 375 00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:36.119 of problematic. So we've got the Beeve out here going behind investigators backs, 376 00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:41.359 talking to these eyewitnesses, and she's going to be poisoning the well because she's 377 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:45.440 going to be giving them information that would support that he is a really bad 378 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:49.759 guy and that he's capable of doing this, and that she herself believes that 379 00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:55.440 he did this. So then you've got a situation where it could be confirmation 380 00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:59.279 biased, where it's like, deep down, these people really want to help 381 00:27:59.359 --> 00:28:02.200 and they're thinking and yeah, well, this is the guy you're presenting the 382 00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:06.519 suspect. You're telling me that he's done ab and C and D, and 383 00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:11.319 these sound like they could be things that could lead to what he's done here 384 00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:15.839 with Harold and Thelma. So yeah, maybe he is the guy. Yeah. 385 00:28:15.200 --> 00:28:21.119 This is just really kind of upsetting when somebody's got this personal vendetta and 386 00:28:21.160 --> 00:28:26.279 they decided to exercise it by inserting themselves into an investigation without the investigator's knowledge. 387 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.680 Oh exactly. Like, I don't think Dennis Perry would have ever been 388 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:34.119 on the radar as a suspect if it wasn't for Jane Beaver. And the 389 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:37.920 ironic thing is that when Dale Bundy started looking through the files, he found 390 00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:44.000 out that Perry had already been investigated back in the late nineteen eighties. He 391 00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:47.440 did used to live in Camden County, like a short distance away from the 392 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:51.319 church, but he had moved to Jonesboro, Georgia, I think three months 393 00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:56.440 before the murders and was currently working at a construction company in Atlanta. And 394 00:28:56.480 --> 00:29:00.400 the lead investigator for the GBI at that time, Joe Gregory. Apparently Jane 395 00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.960 Beaver had approached him during the late nineteen eighties and said that I believe he 396 00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:11.920 might be the killer. So Gregory decided to look into Perry's alibi and found 397 00:29:11.960 --> 00:29:14.680 out that on the day of the murders, he had been working at the 398 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:18.960 construction company in Atlanta till five pm, and because he did not own a 399 00:29:19.039 --> 00:29:23.599 vehicle, he always hitched a ride with a coworker named Charlie Williamson, who 400 00:29:23.640 --> 00:29:26.680 confirmed that, Yes, after we were done work, I drove Dennis home 401 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.319 and I dropped him off at five thirty pm. And of course you look 402 00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:36.640 at the timeline the murders took place at eight point fifty as apparently like a 403 00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:41.720 four hour drive nearly from Jonesborough all the way down to Camden County where the 404 00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.759 murders took place. So Joe Gregory looks at this and he realizes, well, 405 00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:48.440 I guess he could have made it, but it would be very, 406 00:29:48.559 --> 00:29:51.960 very tight. You also have to factor in stuff like rush hour traffic in 407 00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:56.480 Atlanta, and it also turned out that Perry did not own his own vehicles. 408 00:29:56.519 --> 00:29:59.559 So Gregory pretty much said, yeah, I'm ruling this guy out as 409 00:29:59.559 --> 00:30:02.839 a suspen. There's no way he could have done this. And you thought 410 00:30:02.839 --> 00:30:07.559 that would have been it. But apparently Jane Beaver was so convinced that he 411 00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:12.599 was the guy that she kept doing her own independent investigation and when she told 412 00:30:12.960 --> 00:30:18.400 this new investigator, Dale Bundy, about Perry, he decided to take it 413 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.160 more seriously and decided to approach him as a suspect again, even though he 414 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:27.359 had already been cleared over a decade earlier. I'm just curious what he did 415 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:36.119 to Jane Beaver's daughter for her to hate him so deeply and to pursue this 416 00:30:36.240 --> 00:30:38.640 vendetta, like, you know, letting things go. I mean, it 417 00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:44.799 would be one thing if if he had, like you know, killed somebody 418 00:30:44.839 --> 00:30:48.279 in her family or you know, taken away a child from her daughter. 419 00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:53.039 But there's no indication of exactly what he did to inspire this hatred. Robin 420 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:59.839 uh No, because ironically, her daughter, Carol Anne, would provide testimonies, 421 00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:03.440 would speak to investigators, and it does not sound like she hated Dennis 422 00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.759 at all. She just said it was kind of an amicable breakup, and 423 00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:11.240 she would actually contradict things that her own mother said. One of the reasons 424 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:15.880 that Dennis started being investigated as a suspect again is because Jane told investigators that 425 00:31:17.400 --> 00:31:21.400 on the day before the murders took place, Dennis had apparently phoned her daughter 426 00:31:21.480 --> 00:31:26.119 to say that he had returned to Camden County after hitching a ride on the 427 00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:30.400 back of his brother's motorcycle, and that he had broken into his grandparents' home 428 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.720 to steal something. And of course, like Dale Bundy heard this and he 429 00:31:33.759 --> 00:31:36.359 thought, oh, well, that explains it. He traveled all the way 430 00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:41.359 down to Hear from Atlanta by riding a motorcycle. But then later on Carol 431 00:31:41.359 --> 00:31:44.079 Ann would be interviewed in and says that, yes, I did have a 432 00:31:44.119 --> 00:31:48.400 phone call from him back then saying that he was taking a trip down here 433 00:31:48.440 --> 00:31:52.640 on a motorcycle. But I'm pretty sure it was not before the murders took 434 00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.839 place. I'm pretty sure it was a different time period. And they even 435 00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:59.720 checked with Dennis's grandparents and they say, I have no right collection of our 436 00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:02.240 whole being broken into during this time period. What are they talking about. 437 00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:07.599 But apparently like Bundy developed tunnel vision and he was so sure that Jane was 438 00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:12.519 telling this truth about this motorcycle story that she formulated his own theory about him 439 00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:17.000 using it his transportation to drive down there to commit the murders. It sounds 440 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:22.440 like Jane was potentially suffering from some mental health issues because from what it sounds 441 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:29.319 like, Caroline is saying this amicable breakup with Dennis Perry doesn't really go along 442 00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:34.960 with what Jane Beaver is saying to law enforcement. She then sounds delusional and 443 00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.119 obsessive. Oh yeah, like they did a more deep dive investigation into her 444 00:32:38.160 --> 00:32:42.920 on the undisclosed season and apparently, yeah, she was suffering from mental health 445 00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:46.880 problems during like the nineteen nineties and had become delusional. And what was crazy 446 00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:51.119 is that she had claimed that, oh, when this case was featured on 447 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.400 Unsolved Mysteries, I phoned them multiple times and I left this tip about Dennis 448 00:32:54.400 --> 00:32:59.519 Perry, but no one ever got back to me. But Susan Simpson said 449 00:32:59.559 --> 00:33:02.839 that she actually got access to the original case file where all the tips that 450 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:08.079 were phoned into Unsolved Mysteries were actually included there, and she didn't find anything 451 00:33:08.119 --> 00:33:13.920 from Jane Beaver, like no notes about tips about Dennis Perry. And after 452 00:33:13.960 --> 00:33:21.519 further investigation, Susan thinks that the Swain murders were actually featured on another very 453 00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:24.640 obscure true crime series in the early nineteen nineties. I can't even remember what 454 00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:29.000 it's called, but I think the big clue was is that Jane had said 455 00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:32.359 that she called the Unsolved Mysteries tip line because they had been offering a reward 456 00:33:32.519 --> 00:33:36.839 and she wanted to collect on the reward. But if you watch the segment, 457 00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:42.519 there's no mention of any reward whatsoever. So Susan has speculated that perhaps 458 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:46.720 that Jane called the tip line for this other TV show which was an Unsolved 459 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:51.400 Mysteries, that perhaps they offered a reward on that show and then just got 460 00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:53.720 the two shows mixed up. But because this is a very obscure show, 461 00:33:53.720 --> 00:33:58.839 they were never able to find any old copies of the episode or any of 462 00:33:58.839 --> 00:34:01.559 their old tips. But right away, that just shows issues with the credibility 463 00:34:01.559 --> 00:34:06.599 of Jane Beaver when she can't even remember the correct TV show that she called 464 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:13.920 into. It's too bad that investigators were so hell bent on pursuing Dennis Perry 465 00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:19.440 as a suspect without really giving the weight that they should have to the alibi 466 00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:22.639 with the coworker who drove him and the testimony that he didn't have a vehicle, 467 00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:27.960 and even if he did, it would have been a real tight timeline. 468 00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:30.119 He would have had to have jumped into that vehicle like a waiting vehicle 469 00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:36.039 right away and then driven there pretty fast in order to murder Felman and Harold, 470 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.960 it just doesn't seem likely. And then when they talked to Carol Anne 471 00:34:39.960 --> 00:34:45.519 and they say that actually what Jane Biaver is saying about him isn't accurate, 472 00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:52.400 then you have to question is all the other information that she's giving about the 473 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:59.679 potential that he did this accurate or is she somehow misremembering? Is she delusional? 474 00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:04.320 But they gave far too much weight to her testimony and to her opinions 475 00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:08.199 about Dennis Perry, and that led them down the wrong path, oh exactly. 476 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:13.039 And talking about like the whole vehicle thing, you're wondering, even if 477 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.199 Perry was able to make this lengthy drive, there's also a question of motive, 478 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:20.400 like why would he drive all the way back to his hometown just to 479 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:24.199 kill this couple, this preacher. And this is another story provided by Jane 480 00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:30.119 Bieber, saying that a few weeks before the murders, he had told her 481 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:34.440 that he had visited the home of one of his grandparents neighbors to borrow money, 482 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:37.360 but this guy laughed at him and ridiculed for him for it. So 483 00:35:37.400 --> 00:35:40.719 it made Dennis very mad. And he apparently stood about the incident. And 484 00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:45.400 while he never specifically referred to Harold Swain by name. He used racial slurs 485 00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:51.159 to describe this man. So this gives off the impression that the murder was 486 00:35:51.239 --> 00:35:54.800 a hate crime. Wouldn't it be kind of weird given that Jane Biaber hates 487 00:35:54.840 --> 00:36:00.320 him so much that Dennis Perry would spend this time confiding in her exactly like 488 00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.599 they He had already broken up with Carol Anne at this point, so I 489 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:07.079 have no idea why he's going up to hang out with her and give his 490 00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:12.599 plans for murder in expressing hatred for someone he wants to kill, So this 491 00:36:12.719 --> 00:36:16.280 conversation doesn't make any sense. And it was later confirmed that the Swains were 492 00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:21.960 neighbors of Perry's grandparents, but he claimed that even though he knew who they 493 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:27.119 were, he had never met them before and had no reason to hate them 494 00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:30.119 or anything like that. And another questionable thing is that they would later determine 495 00:36:30.159 --> 00:36:36.760 that Dennis Perry had perfect twenty twenty vision and never wore glasses in his life, 496 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:39.639 which kind of goes against the evidence of the glasses being left behind at 497 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:43.840 the murder scene. But here's Jane Biaber saying that, oh yeah, I 498 00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:46.239 saw him wearing glasses during our conversation, and he told me that he used 499 00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:51.679 them for reading, And for whatever reason, investigators just took everything she said 500 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:58.039 out her word. Do you think that somehow Jane Beaver heard about the murder 501 00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:05.519 of Harold and Thelma because of Dennis Perry's grandparents living next door, Like maybe 502 00:37:05.599 --> 00:37:09.480 he told Caroline and then Caroline told Jane Beaver, and Jane Beaver was like, 503 00:37:09.480 --> 00:37:12.880 oh, well, he must have been involved type of a thing, 504 00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:15.840 That's what I'm thinking. Yeah, that maybe she just because they were like 505 00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:19.639 such close neighbors, she just put it into her head like she had this 506 00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:22.360 bias towards this guy and figured that even though he's no longer even living in 507 00:37:22.360 --> 00:37:27.079 the area, he had to have made a special trip down here in order 508 00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:30.639 to commit the murders. I mean, obviously, he wasn't known as a 509 00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:32.599 saint. Like he did have a drinking problem back then, he had a 510 00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:37.719 drug problem. He was once arrested for duy, but he had no known 511 00:37:37.840 --> 00:37:40.079 history of violence, and everyone who knew him said he was not the type 512 00:37:40.119 --> 00:37:45.079 of guy who would just throw around racial slurs to describe black people. So 513 00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:50.400 this incident where he's saying that he's calling like Harold. All these like racial 514 00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.519 slurs did not fit with his character, and also the fact that he supposedly 515 00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:58.639 said that he asked Harold to borrow money, but Harold just laughed at him 516 00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:01.480 and ridiculed for him, when by all accounts, Harold was a very kind, 517 00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:06.239 generous man who would always help people out and give them money. So 518 00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:08.639 it did not sound logical that he would laugh at someone for asking for a 519 00:38:08.679 --> 00:38:15.280 loan. No, it just sounds like we really can't rely on anything that 520 00:38:15.360 --> 00:38:20.440 Jane Beaver says. So. But despite of this, they decided to investigate 521 00:38:20.480 --> 00:38:23.960 him as a suspect again, and they brought in Perry for questioning. Dale 522 00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:29.559 Bundy did and even though he could, he supposedly denied that he killed the 523 00:38:29.559 --> 00:38:32.239 Swains, and he continued to maintain that he had never even met them before. 524 00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:37.480 During this lengthy interrogation session, he supposedly acknowledged that, well, I 525 00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:39.760 was doing a lot of drugs at that time, so it is possible that 526 00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:44.679 I could have made a trip back to Camden County and committed the murderers without 527 00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:47.719 remembering it. And of course, following Perry's arrest, they would say that 528 00:38:47.840 --> 00:38:53.400 he had made a so called confession in this interrogation session, but Dennis denied 529 00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:58.360 this, and of course nobody recorded this session even though it was something like 530 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:01.280 three hours long. There were no investigator's notes, and there was only really 531 00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:06.400 like a one or two page summary of what he had supposedly said, So 532 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.639 there was no actual record of this so called confession or him saying that, 533 00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:14.159 oh I could have committed the murders and just not remembered it. So it 534 00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:19.480 sounds like Bundy just made that up and that never actually happened. Yikes. 535 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:23.639 Yeah, you can't trust a confession where there's no recording and no investigator's notes. 536 00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:30.119 You've got nothing to substantiate that. You've got a potential perpetrator who's just 537 00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:32.320 saying, yeah, I was so messed up or like blacked out that I 538 00:39:32.400 --> 00:39:36.559 basically could have done anything, you know what I mean. Like, it's 539 00:39:36.639 --> 00:39:38.599 not like, oh, yeah, I committed the murders. It's I was 540 00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:43.480 so effed up that I don't remember. You know, you could tell me 541 00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:46.000 that I did ABC or D and sure I could have done any of those 542 00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:51.719 things, because I literally have no memory of that timeframe, so anything is 543 00:39:51.800 --> 00:39:57.920 possible. That is not the same thing as saying I committed the murders exactly. 544 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.880 And it's one thing to do something bad when you're so high on drugs 545 00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.000 and can't remember it. But could you really make a four hour drive from 546 00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:07.320 Jonesborrow to Campden County while you're in a drug fueled haze and not remember it. 547 00:40:08.440 --> 00:40:12.800 No, I don't think so. I think that you probably would have 548 00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.920 got into an accident or been pulled over at some point. It sounds far 549 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:21.960 too precise and on a very specific timeline. And also for him to get 550 00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:24.440 that messed up on drugs, what so he got off his job at the 551 00:40:24.480 --> 00:40:29.400 construction site, just did a bunch of drugs I got so high he can't 552 00:40:29.440 --> 00:40:32.199 remember anything, and then drove there with the car that he doesn't have. 553 00:40:32.440 --> 00:40:37.280 It just doesn't make any sense exactly. And I didn't hear anything about him 554 00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:39.440 missing any shifts at work, like the day after or anything, so he 555 00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:44.440 presumably had to make the four hour drive back. So did he just commit 556 00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.199 this murder and then drive another four hours back to Jonesborough and then wake up 557 00:40:47.199 --> 00:40:52.239 for work tomorrow as if everything was normal. I don't think so. I 558 00:40:52.239 --> 00:40:54.079 don't think so either, And I think they're using the fact that he obviously 559 00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:59.039 had drinking, you know, alcohol and drug issues at the time, as 560 00:40:59.280 --> 00:41:01.960 just a door way into he could have done it. He did it, 561 00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:07.079 but it just doesn't match the facts of the case exactly because this crime had 562 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:10.440 gone unsolved for nearly fifteen years at this point, and I think they were 563 00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:15.719 just desperate and wanted to pit it on somebody. And of course they used 564 00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:20.559 all this confiscated drug money to hire this new cold case investigator named Dale Bundy, 565 00:41:20.599 --> 00:41:22.000 and they were probably thinking, well, I hope this money doesn't go 566 00:41:22.039 --> 00:41:25.159 to waste. He'd better closed one of our cases soon, and that's pretty 567 00:41:25.199 --> 00:41:30.360 much what happened here. It's so unfortunate when we look back at these wrongful 568 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:35.039 conviction cases because you can see all of the missteps, and there's so many 569 00:41:35.119 --> 00:41:37.280 other avenues that they could have gone down. And if they would have actually 570 00:41:37.320 --> 00:41:42.440 looked at Jane Beaver for what she was, an unfortunate woman who was suffering 571 00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:46.760 from mental health issues and was clearly delusional, then they would have known to 572 00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:52.199 pursue other avenues. But it's like they already had their minds made up and 573 00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:58.039 they really wanted that conviction, and unfortunately we've seen that in so many cases 574 00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:02.039 exactly. It'sretty much the same thing here. And while we're on the subject 575 00:42:02.119 --> 00:42:07.079 of Jane Bieb, you heard me mention earlier that she had been going around 576 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:12.119 showcasing a photograph of Dennis Perry to one of the other witnesses from the church, 577 00:42:12.199 --> 00:42:15.400 Cora Fisher. It turned out that she also did the same thing to 578 00:42:15.639 --> 00:42:19.679 van Zola Williams, the one witness who was actually face to face with the 579 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:24.000 killer. When Joe Gregory was investigating Dennis Perry back in the late nineteen eighties, 580 00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:30.000 he actually showed Vanzola a photo lineup with Perry's pitcher and she failed to 581 00:42:30.000 --> 00:42:32.320 pick him out. So in Gregory's eyes, this was just one more piece 582 00:42:32.360 --> 00:42:37.400 of evidence that Perry was not the killer. But lo and behold, Jane 583 00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:42.920 Bieber, while doing her own independent investigation, showed van Zola Williams a photograph 584 00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:46.079 of Dennis and then she suddenly started changing her mind and started thinking, oh, 585 00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.840 maybe this was the guy I actually saw in the vestibule. And then 586 00:42:50.880 --> 00:42:54.400 lo and behold, when Venzola Williams and Cora Fisher were later questioned by Dale 587 00:42:54.440 --> 00:43:00.800 Bundy, they both positively identified Perry as the man they had seen at the 588 00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:05.360 church. But the problem is that Bundy did not actually use the proper procedure, 589 00:43:05.440 --> 00:43:07.639 because usually when you want someone to pick out a photo of a suspect, 590 00:43:07.679 --> 00:43:13.239 you'll use a photo lineup and include the suspects picture in there and just 591 00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:17.000 hope they pick out the right one to avoid any confirmation bias. But that's 592 00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:22.320 not what happened here, as Bundy just showed van Zola and Cora Dennis's photograph 593 00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:25.519 and said, is this the guy you saw? And both times they said 594 00:43:25.719 --> 00:43:30.039 yes. And what makes it even more ridiculous is that when he went to 595 00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:32.840 visit Cora Fisher on her home, she had actually suffered an accident where she 596 00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:37.679 fell down and was a waiting for the ambulance to arrive to pick her up. 597 00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:40.360 And while she was waiting on the floor, that's when he showed her 598 00:43:40.480 --> 00:43:45.000 Dennis's picture, and that's when she picked him out and paid a positive identification. 599 00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:49.840 And You're like, she's already in a stressed out situation because she suffered 600 00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.559 a medical accident, she's waiting for an ambulance, So are you really going 601 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:58.400 to trust like the memory and the judgment of someone in that situation to identify 602 00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:02.000 a killer that they saw from maybe like twenty feet away. The lack of 603 00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:08.559 empathy there. He's clearly very gold driven. But this woman's had an accident. 604 00:44:08.800 --> 00:44:13.920 The first portocol should be getting her the help that she needs. You 605 00:44:13.920 --> 00:44:16.639 shouldn't be hovering over her with one photograph, being like, is this the 606 00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:21.880 guy? She's in a compromised state. She's an incredible amount of pain, 607 00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:27.039 and that's what you're concerned about. Bundy's just really not looking good in this 608 00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:30.199 investigation. Definitely not like this is the only time I've ever seen this in 609 00:44:30.239 --> 00:44:35.519 a cold case investigation. Like I've seen so much that I often failed to 610 00:44:35.559 --> 00:44:37.519 be shocked anymore. But when I heard that story, I was shocked that 611 00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:42.840 he's using this as evidence to charge a guy with murder, the identification of 612 00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:45.559 a poor woman who's in pain, lying on the floor waiting for an ambulance. 613 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:49.960 So this seems like a good place to end part one, But join 614 00:44:50.039 --> 00:44:52.519 us next week when we return to discuss part two of the murders of Harold 615 00:44:52.519 --> 00:44:55.800 and Thelma Swayin. Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit 616 00:44:55.840 --> 00:45:00.480 about the Trail Went Cold Patreon? Ah? Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon 617 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:05.079 has been around for three years now, and we offer these standard bonus features 618 00:45:05.119 --> 00:45:08.920 like early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers and sign thank 619 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:13.519 you cards to anyone who signs up with us on Patreon if you join our 620 00:45:13.559 --> 00:45:19.280 five dollars tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in which I 621 00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:22.440 talk about cases which are not featured on the trailwent Cold's original feed, so 622 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:27.440 they're exclusive to Patreon, and if you join our highest tier tier free, 623 00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:31.079 the ten dollar tier. 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