WEBVTT

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I feel like it's been a while
since I've been on This feels a little

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strange. Actually, all right,
guys, I got through a lot of

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work and now I can present to
you part three of three years ago in

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Waco, And these are the last
two videos that were posted by the Hour

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of the Time on bit shoot.
It's just called Hour the Time, and

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it's all of Bill Cooper's archives.
I think he posts one a day and

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they're up into the eighteen hundreds now, so there's a lot there that you

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can learn from. And I'm gonna
start with Bill's what do you call it?

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What would you say? It was
his request basically, and we're gonna

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hear that, and then I'm gonna
go right into his two broadcasts and it's

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actually gonna be video, so don't
worry, but I'm going to probably have

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to interject a few times because I'm
not sure who made this video, and

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I'm sure Bill would have commentary on
this too, that some of the things

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were kind of a little bit whitewashed
or steered in a direction based on the

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assumption that were, you know,
the official narrative given by the FBI and

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the ATF. So there's a little
bit of that going on. Part two

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I personally have not even seen yet. It just came out. It was

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just uploaded today. So Part one
I did watch and while I was working

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yesterday, and it was very still, very informative, and there's a lot.

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There's a lot there. Each each
one of these parts that I put

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out, it's another piece of the
puzzle. And you just got to pick

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them, you know, find them
when you say, oh, and that

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one grabbed at you know, this
one over here, and then formulate the

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new overview of what you've been told
versus what is reality? All right,

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so let me go ahead and get
the show started here. Oh yeah,

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I gotta do that again. Okay, all right, So this is the

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beginning. This is William Cooper asks
us to share his tapes after he is

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well you'll see, and it says
William Cooper. This is hot clip number

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one. William Cooper asks us to
share his tapes after he is killed.

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I remember, ladies and gentlemen,
I have given up my whole life.

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I don't have any money. I'm
not getting rich from this. In fact,

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the only thing that's happened to me
and my family is we have been

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destroyed. I'm doing this because I
love the principles and ideals which made this

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country the greatest nation on earth.
Even though I may call the vast majority

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of American people stupid, apathetic,
and ignorant, it's because they are.

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But I know that if somehow we
can get them out of that, they

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will become once again the greatest people
that's ever lived upon the face of this

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earth. And I do all of
this out of love. I'm telling you

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this because I want you to know
it, because I don't have long to

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live. What I am doing now
makes me the biggest target in America.

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William Jefferson Clinton did not call me
the most dangerous radio host in America because

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he loves me. And one of
these days you're going to tune into this

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frequency and you will not hear a
thing. And when that happens, I

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want you all to dig out all
the old tapes of my broadcasts and I

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want you to get on whatever radio
station's legal, illegal, micro FM,

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AM, shortwave HAM, I don't
care, and play them over and over

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and over and over and over again, because it's the only truth that anybody

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in this world is going to hear
today. And by now you all know

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that that's the truth, okay,
And we're gonna get right into it now

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here is Is this the part two? Yeah, I'll get the part one.

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The Hour of the Time number one
eight zero seven Waco a New Revelation

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Part one And this is his video. You're gonna hear him introduce it,

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and and it's gonna show. It's
gonna switch over to the actual video.

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You are listening to the Hour of
the Time. I'm William Cooper. Good

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evening, ladies and gentlemen. Regardless
of what you may think initially, you

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have never heard this broadcast before.
On the Hour of the Time, pay

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very very close attention. Get here
part one tonight, Part two tomorrow and

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on Thursday night. I'll tell you
where to get it and make sure that

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you do get it. It's important. Normally I would skip the music,

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but I think this is suitable suiting
to fulfill the long held promise of a

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new world order, for brutality will
go unrewarded. Just in case you don't

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remember, let me jog your memory. In a church they called the Way

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Cool Compound. Back in April ninety
three, seventeen little children, also helpless

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and so small, died a senseless
death of gas and flame? How many

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names can you recall? Seventy little
children? Don't it make you wonder why?

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Seventeen little gil Dream? How could
they deserve to die? Maybe we

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should stop and ask our sin if
we become so blind? Well? Seventeen

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little gin Hildrum, Finally open up
your mind? How did you sleep last

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night? Bill Content? Tell me
did you feel their pain? Seventeen Little

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chim Dream cried out and perished in
the flame? Attorney General Janet, we

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know I accept your offer to resign. How can you stand for law and

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norder now when you won't answer to
your crist Seventeen little chief also helpless hands

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so small? Seventeen Lucchi, how
many names can you recall? Maybe we

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should stop and ask us say if
we becomes so blad gill seventeen little child,

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finally open up your mind. I've
heard it, said the branch da

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Vidians only God what they desert?
Yet no one seems to know what laws

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were broke? Again, what was
in the warmth they never served? Yesterday?

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I sold my TV set, stop
my subscription to the tidess. To

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me, it's plain to see me
was an accomplice to these crimes. Seventeen

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little children don't even make you wonder
why seventeen little Chill Drew? How could

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they deserve to die? Maybe we
should stop and ask our SA have we

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become so blind? Will seventeen little
Chill Hill Drew finally open up your mind?

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Ople up your mind. You're gonna
find throughout this video that there is

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over twenty that actually died in not
seventeen. Hello, I'm doctor Frederick Whitehurst.

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I was employed by the FBI for
sixteen years as an agent, the

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last twelve of those years at the
FBI Crime Laboratory in Washington, d C.

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After reviewing the results of a six
year investigation into the tragedy at Waco,

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Texas, I am convinced that the
American people have never been told the

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full truth about that matter. On
February twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three,

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agents of the Bureau of Alcohol,
Tobacco and Firearms rated the Branch Davidian compound

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near Waco, Texas. Four ETF
agents and six Branch Davidians were killed.

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The Branch Davidians were immediately charged with
murder, thus beginning a fifty one day

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siege. On April nineteenth, which
is the first day of the Feast of

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Moloch nineteen ninety three. The siege
ended in a fire which destroyed the compound

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and took the lives of seventy nine
men, women, and children. The

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FBI later claimed that the Davidians had
committed mass suicide. Since nineteen ninety three,

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former FBI special forces and CIA operatives
have come forward with evidence to suggest

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this claim is not true. This
is the story of that evidence. Having

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served with the FBI's hostage negotiation team
during this crisis, April the nineteenth would

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mark the end of one of my
duties and the beginning of another. Unknown

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to me, my life was about
to change forever. As I would come

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to know what failure is. Today, I saw the gates of hell.

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I saw the gates a hell.
Holding a child in your hands that lost

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its light in a fire where the
temperatures reached an excess of three thousand degrees

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is something that pierced in my heart. April nineteenth, turned the TV on,

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and there I saw the tanks ramming
into the front of the building,

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of the fire shooting out, and
it was just it was horrifying. Mommy

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says, you know, they told
us about their fire says, they said

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my daddy and my brother is my
zagon. Things will be said straight.

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People will know the truth of things. Today two subcommittees undertake historic joint hearings

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and executive branch conduct during that led
up to the events at Waco, Texas

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in nineteen ninety three. In human
terms, these hearings are about a tragic

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loss of life. Four brave young
law enforcement officers lost their lives on February

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twenty eighth, nineteen ninety three.
A plan raid went badly and off course.

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These four agents, dedicated and proud, deserve our full respect. They

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did not use to die, but
like many others in law enforcement community,

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they chose to serve. And let's
not forget that those four happened to be

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security detail at one point for William
Jefferson Clinton and it was with the four

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that died. But this is a
complex event. On April nineteenth, nineteen

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ninety three, after a fifty one
day siege, other decisions led to the

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use of so called cs gas and
a fire broke out. The fire rapidly

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consumed the entire Davidian compound, killing
all twenty two innocent children and more than

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sixty adults. The truth behind that
part of the tragedy is also important,

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and is the obligation of those who
have responsibility for oversight to pursue the truth

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relentlessly. The Branch Davidians were a
Seventh Day Adventist or a sect of Seventh

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Day Adventists. They were an offshoot
developed first in California under the leadership of

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Victor Hottoff. He moved to why
Cohen nineteen thirty four thirty five founded a

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community called Mount Carmel. His followers, in turn moved to the location we

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know in the early sixties. If
you once get to know these people,

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they're different from you and me.
They're more religious than you and me.

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They know the Bible better than you
and me. They lived apart from the

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rest of us. They lived in
a manner different than the rest of us.

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They had different marriage customs and different
property practices than the rest of us

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have. They had a religion that
was absolutely incomprehensible to most Christians. Well

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with people from all walks of life, various nations, and lot of them

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came from England. They were colored
people as well as white people. The

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majority of those people in there were
not criminals in the sense of the word

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that we think about them. They
were truly believing people. I believe ninety

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nine per cent of those people.
Their sole purpose was the attainment of eternal

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life, which is after all what
I believe. All of us that you

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know at least that are Christians and
believe in the Branch Davidians believe first of

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all, that is the remnants of
the true faith. They would be attacked

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by a hostile army representing on apostate
government Babylon, they called it, and

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that it was their religious duty to
defend the faith. In nineteen ninety two,

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the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and
Firearms began an investigation into David Koresh

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for the possession of illegal firearms.
They formed a dynamic entry plan to secure

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the premises and seize illegal weapons with
approximately one hundred federal agents and three helicopters,

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which would ultimately cost the lives of
four ATF agents and six Branch Davidians.

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I have to stop there to remind
everybody that they knew damn well that

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those firearms were not on the property
at that time, because they were selling

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them as a business and they happened
to be taken already off premise to a

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gun show, and that two hundred
dollars tax stamp that they used as an

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excuse they never even had an automatic
weapon in the first place. On February

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twenty eight, nineteen ninety three,
the approximately ninef ATF agents, while attempting

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to execute a warrant, were met
with heavy gunfire by a group of individuals

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occupying a compound approximately ten miles northeast
of Waco, Texas. The group is

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identified as the Branch Davidian. A
gunfight broke out that would become the longest

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shootout in American law enforcement history.
According to the ATF, their men pull

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up to Mount Carmel, pile out
of their cattle trailers, running towards the

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door, guns pointed, shouting police
search warrant lay down. According to them,

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David was standing at the front door, unarmed, and she shut the

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door when they started running towards him. And the next thing the ATF knew,

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it says, it was receiving gunfire
from inside of Mount Carmel, in

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particular from behind that front door.
He knew law and horsement was coming,

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and he was so diabolical that he
laid an ambush. Gravid Koresh expresses this.

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He says in this tape that he
went out on his porch, he

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said, stop, there's women and
children in here, and a shot rang

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out and hit the door on to
the right. That door, he says,

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kicked. I went running down the
hall and found Perry Jones laying in

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the hall screaming that he had been
shut Perry Jones was in his sixties.

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He was unarmed, as was David
Koresh when they went to the front door.

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Both was shot in the area of
the front door. David was shot

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in the wrist. Perry Jones was
shot in the stomach. And then he

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says, if you don't believe me, look at the video tape. I

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know you have that tape. He
says, I saw you making it across

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the road. According to the agency, there were three or four video cameras

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pointed at the front door could tell
you everything that happened at the front door

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of that building that day. They
claim they can't find a single one of

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them. Every one of those videotapes
vanished. In addition to the missing videotape,

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the ATF's onun scene activity logs also
disappeared. I'm sorry, sir,

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I just you mentioned that notes were
torn out of the surveillance log I was

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just wondering, how does that happen. I don't know, sir, I

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had never heard that before. My
dad's name is Perry Jones. He was

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an unarmed man and if you guys
just shot through the door killed him,

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thanks a lot. Well. Ballistaaros
was one of the first ones to the

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door. Officer Ballist doors. He's
an ATF agent, and they had a

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plan that if the dogs came up
to attack him when they came to the

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front door, if they were to
shoot the dogs to kill the dogs,

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and he testified at a pre trial
hearing that in fact, they did fire

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and shoot the dogs. At that
time, it didn't take much of a

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spark to get a war going.
I'm remember gunshooting through the windows. Our

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room was shot up completely. I
did my best at getting the kids under

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the bed. All of a sudden, now there's I don't know how many

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fifty seventy one hundred people outside,
but at some point before I got Jake

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and Brian under the bed, bullets
came flying in my window. For a

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law enforcement agency, we don't fire
through walls indiscriminately. At people greatly feared

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that they would come in, they
would open that door, and even though

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I didn't have a gun, it
wouldn't matter that they would shoot me in

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the kids. They had already shot
it into the window, and I had

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no clue what was coming back.
Just so you know, the video cut

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right there after those people entered.
The ATF entered that window. What you'll

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see in Waco, the big lie
is that another ATF agent from outside the

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window starts firing into that room that
the ATF agents just entered. So who

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shot who and who was killed by
whom? The government tried to say that

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everybody they could put a gun in
everybody's hand at the beginning and during the

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raid, and that's it's not true. Most people were unarmed. There were

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a few that had guns, and
I admit that. And there were probably

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those that reacted to seeing David Perry
and others gunned down who responded by firing

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back. But it was not a
general ambushious they would like you to believe.

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I am in sympathy with the families
of those that lost, the families

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of the four agents that died.
I know what they're going through. We

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lost a lot of friends and a
lot of our families. I lost a

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daughter inside mouthcomel. After about two
hours, they had a real truce.

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It wasn't a pretty sight. I
mean, there were grown men crying all

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around. There was a group of
guys that were down on their knees and

216
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they were praying. Very disturbing,
you know type thing. I don't think

217
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the deaths on either side were justified
as well as those wounded. Judy Snyder

218
00:26:17.240 --> 00:26:22.720
was shot while nursing her baby through
the chest. Here my battery gone.

219
00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:48.759
Here my battery hind the bus.
Immediately following the at fraid, the Branch

220
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Davidians were charged with murder and conspiracy
to commit murder of federal agents. A

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year later, the jury found all
the Branch Davidians not guilty of both charges,

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but some were convicted of lesser offensives. Since the initial February twenty eighth

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orra ede, a review is before
federal court to determine if the ATF used

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excessive force while serving the search warrant. Sir, I've got a people shot.

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Get the hell off of here.
I'll get off the property. That's

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what I'm doing, sir. Hepical
respect, I am, sir. You

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could have arrested me any day as
I jog up and down this road.

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You could have arrested me going to
town or going to Walmart. All this

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stuff you make, you guys may
want to avoid and deny, and I

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do not appreciate it, and never
will I ever appreciate somebody coming here and

231
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pushing people around with guns. See, I'll meet you at the doorstep any

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day, you know, and somebody
will get hurt if you want to keep

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playing that game. I'm talking to
you, somebody's going to get hurt,

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because this ain't America anymore when the
ATF has that kind of power to come

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into anybody's home and keep doors down
and things like that. The federal agents

236
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said they are headed back through the
house. So this thing is not over

237
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.240
by a long shot. And the
only way that this is going to end

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is is for all of the people
inside to die or to surrender. Bread.

239
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I was walking out, Uh,
there wasn't any room in the car,

240
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and when they saw me, they
just swarmed on me. No forget,

241
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they're hitting me, trying to take
my camera away from me, yelling

242
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at me. And after all this
went down, the Secret Service asked me

243
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if I wanted to prosecute the agents. I said no, I said,

244
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I understand them. I was their
first vent valve. At this point,

245
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we were surrounded. At this point, we did not have a clue what

246
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the government Babylon, in our opinion, was going to do in retaliation.

247
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But we knew it wasn't going to
be fun. On the evening of February

248
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twenty eighth, well Mount Carmel is
under siege three Davidians not present during the

249
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gunfight, trying to return home to
their families. Two of the men are

250
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:11.359
taken into custody, but Michael Dean
Schroeder is killed. They say that they

251
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stopped them and they asked for who
they were or whatever. I don't see

252
00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:22.119
how any of the ATF agents were
close enough to ask him any questions.

253
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.599
Michael Schroeder's body is left in a
ravine for five days, three hundred yards

254
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from Aunt Carmel. According to the
ATF statements, Schroeder refused demands to surrender

255
00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:37.400
and raised a pistol. Eleven agents
fired on Schroeder. The autopsy report indicates

256
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:45.559
that he had seven bullet entries.
Why it takes so many fatal bullet wounds

257
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:52.720
to knock somebody to the ground.
According to testimony, as the ATF agents

258
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were walking away with their prisoner,
leaving Mike lay there like a piece of

259
00:30:57.319 --> 00:31:06.759
meat in ATF eight and stated that
they heard two more gunshots. Norman was

260
00:31:06.799 --> 00:31:11.119
picked up. He told the others
when he was in jail with them,

261
00:31:11.160 --> 00:31:15.839
he said, after I surrendered,
he said they were taking me away.

262
00:31:15.480 --> 00:31:23.400
He said, I heard two more
shots up the beck. Schroeder's autopsy report

263
00:31:23.480 --> 00:31:27.279
also indicated that there were two entry
wounds behind his right ear, only two

264
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:32.960
inches apart. The bullets passed through
this blue stocking cap. However, the

265
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:37.279
stocking cap was not examined during the
autopsy, nor was any forensic testing conducted

266
00:31:37.319 --> 00:31:44.000
before Schroeder's relatives had his body cremated. I said, Mike Ambushen, there

267
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was seventeen of them as against him, and they were dressed up as trees.

268
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He wasn't armed either. They've got
a love to answer for. After

269
00:32:07.319 --> 00:32:12.960
the initial rate happened on February twenty
eight, we got several phone calls in

270
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:19.799
from the ATF that said if they
saw any movement inside the building, hands

271
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in front of the windows, if
people were standing in front of the windows,

272
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that they felt that it was a
threatening situation and that they would shoot

273
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:35.160
us. On March the first,
the FBI begins negotiations with the Davidians.

274
00:32:35.680 --> 00:32:38.720
Heavy military equipment is brought in,
and a stalemate begins that will last fifty

275
00:32:38.720 --> 00:32:47.920
one days. Several adults and children
leave Mount Carmel and are transferred to atf

276
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:55.519
custody. The children are turned over
to Texas Social Services. We have twenty

277
00:32:55.559 --> 00:33:00.799
one children that have been released to
our care. That's the youngest of those

278
00:33:00.880 --> 00:33:06.039
children is five months old and the
oldest one is a twelve year old.

279
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:13.319
The children appear to be smart and
well educated, very sharp children. They

280
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:22.200
seem to have been very well cared
for. In early March, Koresh had

281
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:28.000
promised to come out, but at
the last minute he believed that God had

282
00:33:28.039 --> 00:33:44.160
told him to stay in to wait. During the siege, David Koresh believed

283
00:33:44.359 --> 00:33:51.839
that the name prophecy was being fulfilled
and which we believe spiritually speaking, that's

284
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talking about the one World order.
David Koresh believed that he was going to

285
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:04.480
be the one that initiates the downfall
of this one or new world order,

286
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:09.320
the fall of Babel of the Great, by sacrificing himself in this denomination.

287
00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:19.320
The description of Ninevah in the Book
of Nam David, liking to the description

288
00:34:19.400 --> 00:34:25.320
of this country being all stagnant in
its ways, and the battle that takes

289
00:34:25.320 --> 00:34:34.000
place talks about these chariots and shields
being bloodied and what's not He likened that

290
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:40.400
battle to what took place on February
twenty eight to read name or Habackic and

291
00:34:43.239 --> 00:34:47.639
you're in it, you're experiencing it. It all fits together. It's all

292
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:55.800
a conglomerate of different prophecies by different
men at different times, talking about a

293
00:34:55.800 --> 00:35:07.920
world Babylon, a great war.
These tanks are for solely defensive purposes and

294
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:16.039
they will not be armed. We
have no plans to assolve the compound two

295
00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:21.880
thousand years ago, Hey, who
believed in christ doctrine, a man had

296
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:25.599
to die as no one would believe
what he had to say. So is

297
00:35:25.639 --> 00:35:29.800
there a lesson to be learned by
looking back at the history of the prophets

298
00:35:29.800 --> 00:35:34.039
that came contrary to what people looked
for. Where they killed Isaiah, they

299
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:37.840
killed Hushi, they killed Zachariah,
and Jesus came to say in Matthew twenty

300
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:42.920
three to the Jews, warned you
to believe. Not all the provinces of

301
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:52.920
spoken, so you know, today
it's all together just totally disregarded. It's

302
00:35:52.960 --> 00:36:07.519
another religious fanatic's another religious group.
Ever since the rise of television, there's

303
00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:15.119
been a merger of news and entertainment. Monster stories and fairy stories are good,

304
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:21.559
simple entertainment. Here you have media
from all over the world is flown

305
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:27.519
in and expected by their home offices
all around the world to produce a story

306
00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:30.039
every day. I mean, the
government could have just issued a press release

307
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:36.199
every day and the media would have
read it word for word over the air.

308
00:36:36.519 --> 00:36:46.679
Just I mean, that's how you
know, desperate. It was what

309
00:36:46.840 --> 00:36:54.119
the public was seeing and hearing on
TV during the siege, demonized to people

310
00:36:54.119 --> 00:37:02.480
in that church, the ones that
I met new the survivors, we're people

311
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:07.639
that were basically just trying to get
to have them. The world can hate

312
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.760
us, the world can laugh at
us and taunt us all they want.

313
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The world's a two thousand years to
learn this book, and there's been people

314
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:19.599
all up until now we've been interested
in it. Now people don't want the

315
00:37:19.639 --> 00:37:22.880
Bible anymore. People don't seem to
want to read the Bible or you know,

316
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:24.159
they want to go to church and
just be saved, you know.

317
00:37:24.760 --> 00:37:28.679
And that's great if that's how faith
works. But if God is a will,

318
00:37:29.000 --> 00:37:31.480
and it is written in that book, his spirit's written in the book

319
00:37:31.480 --> 00:37:36.199
through all the profits, then there's
a knowledge she wants us to know.

320
00:37:37.199 --> 00:37:40.320
And the knowledge is here and it's
being revealed. And that's all I can

321
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:46.400
say. By March twenty fourth,
twenty five children under the age of fifteen

322
00:37:46.559 --> 00:37:52.719
and approximately fifty four adults remain inside
the church compound as Steve Schneider negotiates with

323
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:57.679
the FBI. Let's reflect on this
for a minute. Why were they there

324
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:00.599
in the first instance, A good
question. They were there to serve and

325
00:38:00.760 --> 00:38:06.320
execute and arrest and search for They
never said anything, not by a bullharn,

326
00:38:06.400 --> 00:38:08.760
not by a knock at the door, not by any reason, not

327
00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:12.960
by any reason, even before they
got just about the time they got to

328
00:38:13.039 --> 00:38:15.599
the porch, is when David opened
the door and poked his head out.

329
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:21.559
What we want to do and what
we will do when the time is right,

330
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:25.159
is we will process the crime scene
there. Do you know that we

331
00:38:25.239 --> 00:38:29.760
know that that wouldn't be so bad. The biggest issue that I've raised with

332
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:32.400
you, Dick, is not that
you would be here even or that the

333
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:37.760
Texas Rangers. But I am adamant
about this part that the APF is playing

334
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:42.639
the ones that came to this place, and when I've heard on the press

335
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:46.800
conference the outright lies and to think
that that agency would be involved in any

336
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:51.639
aspect of this from here on out
blows my mind that that would even be

337
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:53.840
allowed in America. Well, Steve, let's face it, there are some

338
00:38:53.880 --> 00:38:58.119
things that we will we will deal
with when the time is right. No,

339
00:38:58.119 --> 00:39:00.719
no, no, we're not dealing
with it now. See we can

340
00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:02.679
come out. I mean, that's
one of the biggest reasons I have not

341
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:07.199
been able to hurdle talking to the
people getting them to come out. Kay,

342
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:08.880
Steve, why don't you and your
family come out and then you handle

343
00:39:08.920 --> 00:39:13.320
these issues? Okay, why don't
we all? Am I going to handle

344
00:39:13.320 --> 00:39:17.079
them? And I'll bet when I'll
be shackled for hands and feet and throwing

345
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:20.599
the key? Will he's throwing away? Who's going to hear me? They're

346
00:39:20.639 --> 00:39:36.199
after blood? Come out? Did
they put me in the jail and way

347
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:40.440
go ahead? After I'd been there
a short period of time, they brought

348
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:45.960
me in and I judge came and
told me what I was been charged for.

349
00:39:46.440 --> 00:39:51.880
And he says, you're being charged
for murder, conspiracy to murder.

350
00:39:52.079 --> 00:40:07.760
He said, it'll be it one
hundred years, seventy five or fifty.

351
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:15.480
They were assuring us that we would
be cared for in a professional manner.

352
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:22.639
Then you turn around and you've got
people that are flipping you the finger over

353
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.760
top of the tanks. They're dropping
their drawers and bearing their butts, and

354
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:32.719
these are the type of people that
you're supposed to go out to. I

355
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:37.880
said, I had heard that you
guys had wrote on some of the windows

356
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:42.679
there at Mount Carmel that we see
you, David, etc. And I

357
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:45.360
asked the agent was this true?
And he said, yeah, it's true.

358
00:40:46.719 --> 00:40:51.440
And I said, aren't you guys
concerned about when this is over that

359
00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:57.559
the news medium might see this and
thinking a little antagonistic on your part.

360
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:04.280
He just looked at me in the
walk the boy. Everything flip flopped from

361
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:08.880
day to day. You went through
a feeling of being real hopeful to you

362
00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:14.639
sunk at the bottom again because from
day to day you never really knew what

363
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:19.280
was going to happen, what the
negotiations were going to be. Steve,

364
00:41:19.480 --> 00:41:27.800
Yeah, there's been a change.
The tactical people have changed the situation,

365
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:34.119
and for security reasons and for safety
reasons, no one is now authorized to

366
00:41:34.159 --> 00:41:37.639
come out of there for any reason. And what they're telling me is that

367
00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:43.800
if anybody does, they are going
to be dealt with in such a fashion

368
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:52.360
that the people have to retreat back
to the compound. Well, what I'm

369
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:54.639
missing, I guess what you're saying. Are you saying? I would make

370
00:41:54.639 --> 00:42:00.679
it as plain as possible. The
patience of the bosses is normal curve where

371
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:05.119
it was earlier. Okay, I'm
about listen to me now, Henry.

372
00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:07.920
I don't really give up out your
bosses. When you tell me one thing

373
00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:12.639
or you tell us that is okay, and this Bradley comes up and says

374
00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.880
something contrary to what you are.
You tell your bosses to get their butts

375
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:25.840
together. Do you hear me?
Would you respond to the allegations that the

376
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:30.360
reason why we had a wake um
is because the FBI was in disarray,

377
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:35.519
It is obvious that from the time
of the change in the administration, it

378
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:37.880
was very clear that there was a
great discussion about the replacement of the director

379
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:44.639
of the FBI. In a March
eleventh letter to President Clinton, Acting Attorney

380
00:42:44.639 --> 00:42:50.079
General Stuart Gerson recommends that the President
rely on other FBI leadership to resolve Waco

381
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:55.280
and dismiss Director Sessions. Chief among
those mentioned in Gerson's letter is Assistant Director

382
00:42:55.360 --> 00:43:01.679
Floyd Clark. Don't confuse him with
Jeff Says, it's William Sessions. Sessions,

383
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:07.000
I can't talk today. This situation
created a competitive environment for the directorship

384
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:10.280
of the FBI in the midst of
a major crisis. I know this was

385
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:15.800
a very political thing, and I
agree that with your observation that it could

386
00:43:16.199 --> 00:43:21.440
be that the FBI was impaired in
its ability. Certainly I was impaired in

387
00:43:21.480 --> 00:43:28.159
my ability. FBI Director William Sessions
attempted to fly to Waco during the siege

388
00:43:28.320 --> 00:43:31.840
to conduct face to face negotiations with
David Koresh, but he was impeded by

389
00:43:31.920 --> 00:43:38.199
government officials in Washington, d C. The reason Bill Sessions never came to

390
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:45.960
Waco during the siege was that the
Justice Department refused to let him board his

391
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:51.800
flight. Everybody knows that I had
contact directed from people associated with mister Koresh

392
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:57.400
about the possibility of my going down
and negotiating with them. Coming in down

393
00:43:57.440 --> 00:44:01.360
there. Now some people played that
as rediculous and ridiculed it or as grand

394
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:06.599
standing, But it's indicative of what
I felt and continued to feel. You

395
00:44:06.760 --> 00:44:14.079
can't discard any possibility that you can
resolve that kind of circumstance when you can

396
00:44:14.320 --> 00:44:22.880
take and apply that negotiating capability.
The Justice Department wouldn't allow an FBI director

397
00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:29.800
to go and negotiate directly with a
so called terrorist who they felt had killed

398
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:34.480
a number of federal agents more or
less in cold blood, and try to

399
00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:39.639
defuse a serious situation ended up in
a calamity and a great embarrassment for the

400
00:44:39.800 --> 00:44:45.440
FBI and even greater embarrassment for law
enforcement in general. And it was all

401
00:44:45.480 --> 00:44:55.159
politics. They were not about to
see this standoff in Waco negotiated again because

402
00:44:55.199 --> 00:45:04.440
it was an opportunity for Floyd Clark
and come to show that they were were

403
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:12.400
the FBI capable of handling a standoff
and coming out winning in this kind of

404
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:23.280
an incident with military kind of tactics. It was a paramilitary organization. Maybe

405
00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:28.239
you might ask them if you can
have some ice cream too? Huh care

406
00:45:28.239 --> 00:45:34.840
I have some ice scream? Little
browbery there? You know you're right now,

407
00:45:34.880 --> 00:45:37.679
you're considered a big terrorist, you
know, and you can demand some

408
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:42.199
important things like an ice cream or
something, you know, maybe they might

409
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:47.239
adhere to you. By late March, the FBI has cut off electricity to

410
00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:52.199
the compound and is preparing a series
of military tactics to force a resolution.

411
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:57.039
A direct quote from the transcript where
it is said by a negotiator to mister

412
00:45:57.079 --> 00:46:00.760
Krash, we had a very good
dialogue last night. The electricity will not

413
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:05.400
go off tonight because we've had a
good dialogue this evening, as a negotiator

414
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:07.599
to mister Krash. Half an hour
later, I'm sorry, it's negotiator to

415
00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:10.480
mister Steve Schnyder. And half an
hour later, the lights are turned off

416
00:46:10.519 --> 00:46:16.320
and left off permanently. The electricty
shut off. Why. I can't answer

417
00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:20.960
the why, but I can tell
you that the negotiation team was disappointed in

418
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:36.320
that decision. Since mid March,
negotiations have begun to fail and the FBI

419
00:46:36.519 --> 00:46:46.159
resorts to psychological warfare. I appreciate
the music get out Sleep at night.

420
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:51.840
From the music, I thought you've
being a teenager, you might like Martian

421
00:46:51.920 --> 00:47:00.880
starn Oh. I see went through
varying degrees of hell with noise music,

422
00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:08.599
bright lights. The children were suffering
along with the adults. We were without

423
00:47:08.639 --> 00:47:13.480
water, having had our water tanks
shut up. We were living on rainwater.

424
00:47:13.960 --> 00:47:16.440
Whenever it would rain, people would
put buckets out the window and collect

425
00:47:16.519 --> 00:47:21.800
rainwater, and it was rationed.
I doubt whether anybody got more than eight

426
00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:29.800
ounces a day. If that,
how long do you fit with that mini

427
00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:37.760
resource is tied up and disrupting the
whole community, with people that are violate,

428
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:46.960
in violation the laws that are in
fact in a state of anarchy.

429
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:54.599
I can remember looking out the south
side of the building. My attention had

430
00:47:54.639 --> 00:48:00.119
been drawn to the fact that the
tanks were coming in and they were pushing

431
00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:04.239
all the things on the south side
of the church, on the chapel.

432
00:48:04.239 --> 00:48:07.559
The south side of the chapel into
a big heave. Looked like they're building

433
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:14.800
a bonfire. We know from the
evidence that the tactical helmet of the FBI

434
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:19.960
was eager to put a quick end
to this standoff. The irony of the

435
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:30.760
situation is that the tactical people are
actually precipitating the crises of the nineteenth They

436
00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.000
tell me the commanders want more,
and I'm telling them, they're wrecking everything

437
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:37.880
that we're doing. And it's getting
ten times worse. And the more they

438
00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:39.840
threaten these people, the more they'll
they bounderate on the floor and they can

439
00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:45.760
run the tanks over them. I
mean, that becomes the attitude. Steve

440
00:48:45.920 --> 00:48:53.079
Snyder and a telephone call during the
standoff to his sister Sue, refers to

441
00:48:53.280 --> 00:49:00.559
the prophecies in the Book of Naem
chapter two. We're talking about Bible and

442
00:49:00.559 --> 00:49:04.199
all the prophetment. I know,
look at when you get off the phone,

443
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:07.159
you look at the Book of nam
Yeah, that suriots with flaming torches

444
00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:12.519
are tanks. That's what Naam saw
in the final days they're surrounded us.

445
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:15.920
It's the first time in the history
of the United States that the government has

446
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:22.239
used tanks against its own people.
Who it's stupid. I know it well.

447
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:25.719
I had been talking to the negotiators
myself and I and I would tell

448
00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:30.840
them things that I thought would help, and it seemed like like, for

449
00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:36.239
instance, when they started playing the
music that they would laugh, They acted

450
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:38.679
like they wanted to do everything to
antagonize them. They really didn't want to

451
00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:45.599
help, And it just seemed like
every prediction that David was predicting they knew

452
00:49:45.679 --> 00:49:47.960
about, and they were making these
predictions come true, and I kept saying

453
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:51.800
to my family, why are they
doing this? If they want them to

454
00:49:51.800 --> 00:50:00.440
come out? I am bewildered in
the wake of Jonestown. Wh I more

455
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:04.760
time wasn't spent in somebody, not
out in the plains of Waco, but

456
00:50:04.880 --> 00:50:10.519
maybe in a nice comfortable office in
Washington, didn't immerse themselves in the religious

457
00:50:10.920 --> 00:50:16.000
tenets of this branch Davidian group.
If I knew about his plans to burn

458
00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:20.159
the place, we'd had a whole
other approach with him. We know about

459
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:23.119
your plan to burn the place and
destroy your people, we would have been

460
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:29.360
broadcasting it. We would not even
come close to approaching that place. Numerous

461
00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:34.920
microphones were planted inside of Mount Carmel
that recorded several conversations of the Davidians reacting

462
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:40.800
to the tanks and the FBI hostage
rescue team. I mean, if they're

463
00:50:40.920 --> 00:50:46.000
the comments out here and stole in
this place, who was the sieve they

464
00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:51.679
think they're going to go the experian? When will have the experian call there?

465
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:55.599
Thinking historians? Will they do have
the original tool and I lay a

466
00:50:55.719 --> 00:51:05.719
thirteen or did he can take a
company plane the fire? The FBI cannot

467
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:08.360
get up here and say they did
not know that David Koresh would respond when

468
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:12.719
they made that assault. They knew
that David Koresh was going to respond by

469
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:15.920
trying to burn the place down.
And they knew that because they had overheard

470
00:51:15.800 --> 00:51:22.960
undercover tapes and because I'd had prior
negotiation tapes with him. The tank started

471
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:27.559
the fire, not the Davidians.
Now things are only going to get worse

472
00:51:27.559 --> 00:51:30.719
out there. This whole situation is
not going to go away, you know,

473
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:34.280
and I know the only way we're
going to resolve this situation is you

474
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:37.639
folks come on out' That's the end
of it right there. And now you

475
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:42.840
were going to have to work to
a point where this is going to happen.

476
00:51:43.360 --> 00:51:46.440
And now the trick is how And
a situation like this, Hey,

477
00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:51.239
there's that's the answer. I'll tell
you what. It definitely isn't an unusual

478
00:51:51.400 --> 00:51:57.159
situation for sure. H oh.
Sometimes when you have a chand three days,

479
00:51:57.199 --> 00:52:00.599
Theiah thirty three of our people living
in fire and walking through it and

480
00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:05.239
coming out and surviving, seriously says, who can dwell in their lasting burnings?

481
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:13.000
That's the question. There is a
tradition in the Branch Davidian history that

482
00:52:13.320 --> 00:52:19.400
God would in the end time protect
his people through a wall of fire.

483
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:25.800
They understand the Bible prophecies to be
warnings of what could happen, but not

484
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:31.280
necessarily what must happen. Krash wrote
a letter to his attorney, Dick de

485
00:52:31.360 --> 00:52:37.880
Garrett and which he said he had
good news. God had spoken to him.

486
00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:40.760
The waiting period was coming to an
end. He and all the people

487
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:45.800
could exit Mount Carmel and go through
the system. But first he was commanded

488
00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:50.880
to write down the meaning of his
message, the meaning of the seven Seals.

489
00:52:51.280 --> 00:52:53.960
After he wrote that manuscript, he
and all the people were commanded to

490
00:52:54.039 --> 00:52:58.360
leave. They actually had no choice
to remain. God had told him to

491
00:52:58.440 --> 00:53:05.119
leave. This message is communicated to
the FBI in an attempt to end the

492
00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:09.400
siege. Koresh writes his first seal
and is preparing the second when the FBI

493
00:53:09.519 --> 00:53:19.440
begins implementing its final tactical resolution.
They'd been knocking down trees and dragging things

494
00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:23.760
off from outside Mount Carmwell a little
by little for several weeks. On the

495
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:29.360
eighteenth, they got rid of everything
that was left. It's just like the

496
00:53:29.480 --> 00:53:34.280
Pafecy during the Dark Ages. But
if all people were heretics. They went

497
00:53:34.360 --> 00:53:37.559
in and dout with them. That
was the way they believed. And you

498
00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:43.039
know, we have to all follow
our conscience. That's why America is supposed

499
00:53:43.079 --> 00:53:45.840
to be a great nation where we
can follow our conscience according to our beliefs.

500
00:53:50.840 --> 00:54:15.719
There was an aura there that we're
going to end this thing. The

501
00:54:15.840 --> 00:54:22.239
individual empim Brand in Amdium compound.
We are now the proaking gear gap in

502
00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:36.039
the building and the pro we would
not be entering the building. Gas was

503
00:54:36.079 --> 00:54:42.159
instarted using a mark by delivery system
secured to a boom. We would not

504
00:54:42.320 --> 00:54:49.360
use dosages that would would harm those
children, and they hear gap. Now.

505
00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:57.800
The FBI's position on this from day
one was to be very deliberate,

506
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:06.079
very careful, and not to do
anything that would be provocative that would cause

507
00:55:06.159 --> 00:55:20.000
some reaction. There were no injuries
to FBI agents, and FBI agents did

508
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:25.239
not return any fire throughout the entire
day, in spite of being fired upon

509
00:55:25.360 --> 00:55:53.280
numerous times by occupants of the compound. The plan was for this to continue

510
00:55:53.320 --> 00:55:58.840
for forty eight hours, but there
was a catch to the plan. If

511
00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:02.880
the tanks took fire from the Davidians, they were then allowed to escalate the

512
00:56:04.000 --> 00:56:09.599
plan. According to the official briefing
given to Attorney General Janet by the FBI

513
00:56:09.760 --> 00:56:15.119
on April to twelve, the assault
plan called for demolition of the building and

514
00:56:15.159 --> 00:56:20.039
permission to shoot streams of automatic weapons
fire into the building to support an armored

515
00:56:20.119 --> 00:56:23.920
vehicle's approach. And we told them
what was going to happen. This tank's

516
00:56:23.960 --> 00:56:28.400
going to come up, it's going
to insert gas. We are not entering

517
00:56:28.440 --> 00:56:35.199
the compound. We're not fulfilling this
prophecy. Don't presume that was The Attorney

518
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:37.880
General warned that while we'd been very
cautious about selecting what your experts say or

519
00:56:37.920 --> 00:56:42.880
experts say was non lethal gas,
we might still crush sections of the building.

520
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:46.960
Did she understand that people might be
killed? I find an inconsistency between

521
00:56:47.000 --> 00:56:52.039
the efforts of the gas insurtion plan
to save life and the actions of this

522
00:56:52.639 --> 00:57:00.599
tank. At Mount Carmel, we
had people that were confined to an area.

523
00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:05.679
Where were they going to go?
Who were they going to hurt?

524
00:57:07.760 --> 00:57:12.880
They ran out of gas canisters I
think about ten o'clock in the morning.

525
00:57:13.880 --> 00:57:16.079
Everything they had planned for forty eight
hours was gone by then, and they

526
00:57:16.079 --> 00:57:24.760
were flying in more from Houston.
The cs gas used at Mount carmel was

527
00:57:24.800 --> 00:57:30.760
more potent than normal tear gas.
Cs gas would induce nausea, vomiting,

528
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:37.800
and disorientation as the FBI tanks demolished
the building. Csgas has a cyanide component

529
00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:43.280
to it. The gas was dispersed
from high pressure bottles mounted on the boom

530
00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:50.159
of the combat engineering vehicles. Any
indication about danger or harm to those children,

531
00:57:50.639 --> 00:57:54.960
the rule was back off. One
of the first locations gassed by the

532
00:57:55.039 --> 00:58:01.000
FBI is the buried school bus the
entryway to an underground store shelter. Following

533
00:58:01.039 --> 00:58:06.239
the gassing, the mothers of the
children take them to an enclosed concrete vault,

534
00:58:06.440 --> 00:58:10.079
which the FBI calls the bunker.
The FBI gases the bunker for two

535
00:58:10.199 --> 00:58:15.840
hours, approximately half of a panel
that we had testified that some of the

536
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:22.119
infants in children, since they didn't
have gas masks, could in fact have

537
00:58:22.199 --> 00:58:27.800
died from inhalation or effects of cs
gas at the very least. A Department

538
00:58:27.840 --> 00:58:31.239
of Justice decision in fact resulted in
the babies and children being tortured for at

539
00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:39.440
least three to four hours. I'd
been told that earlier in the morning the

540
00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:43.960
fields wouldn't last long. When it
did block up, I'd taken my mask

541
00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:46.000
off, only to find my face
bunning and stinging, as like you had

542
00:58:46.039 --> 00:58:50.800
acid all over. Some of them
were trying to wipe it off with minimal

543
00:58:51.000 --> 00:58:54.480
amounts of their drinking water on them, perhaps a rag or whatever, only

544
00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:58.840
to find that it made it loose. So, as I say, what

545
00:58:58.880 --> 00:59:05.239
the children would going through, only
God knows. I saw grown men,

546
00:59:05.679 --> 00:59:12.280
adults crying because of the sensation of
the gas. As I say, we

547
00:59:12.280 --> 00:59:15.440
were fortunate in as much as we
were not in an enclosed environment like the

548
00:59:15.519 --> 00:59:24.840
children were being sprayed point blank and
not having any ventilation. We are now

549
00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:31.239
at what we believe is the next
logical juncture of putting sufficient pressure on them

550
00:59:31.239 --> 00:59:37.199
to cause them to come out.
We saw a hole that a tank had

551
00:59:37.199 --> 00:59:40.159
made in the south wall of the
chapel, and we were kind of standing

552
00:59:40.239 --> 00:59:45.400
right just inside of that. There
was a heap of rubble, sheet rock

553
00:59:45.480 --> 00:59:49.519
and two or fours that the tank
had pushed in. We were standing just

554
00:59:49.559 --> 00:59:52.639
a little back from the hole,
trying to decide whether if we went out

555
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:57.599
we would be shot. And as
we were standing there, others were kind

556
00:59:57.639 --> 01:00:01.519
of coming in behind us. Next
thing I knew I kind of turned was

557
01:00:01.559 --> 01:00:05.840
looking out the hole again, and
all this smoke came down the outside of

558
01:00:05.880 --> 01:00:07.639
the building and got sucked in the
hole where we were, and the whole

559
01:00:07.679 --> 01:00:13.800
place tourn pitch black. That was
the first indication that I recall of any

560
01:00:14.880 --> 01:00:44.440
evidence of fire. Any statement by
you that they committed suicide, since we

561
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:47.280
never got to talked to him,
is all a conclusion that you've drawn,

562
01:00:49.119 --> 01:00:52.320
And as you just said, speculation
on your part. I'm trying to resolve

563
01:00:52.360 --> 01:00:58.800
in my mind why someone would sit
in there for six hours with gas and

564
01:00:59.000 --> 01:01:00.760
not come out with the full opportunity
to come out. Well, who was

565
01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:05.079
keeping them from doing it? Were
they compelling themselves or what? I don't

566
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:08.760
know. I'm just it has to
be speculation. In the very first video

567
01:01:08.760 --> 01:01:13.840
that I did day fifty one,
they talk about twenty five people trying to

568
01:01:13.920 --> 01:01:16.119
flee and they were all gunned down. Hey, I think that's the point

569
01:01:16.239 --> 01:01:22.840
is we don't know. It was
so black. You couldn't even say the

570
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:27.599
flames. You could just feel the
heat, oppressive heat that pushed you down

571
01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:31.360
on the ground. And I can
remember looking at my hands and the skin

572
01:01:31.519 --> 01:01:37.840
was just rolling off. There's no
blister, they were just rolling it off.

573
01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:42.880
In whole layers, you might say. And I looked back over my

574
01:01:42.880 --> 01:01:45.400
shoulder and I was just horrified the
fact that I've just come through a mass

575
01:01:45.400 --> 01:01:58.719
of flames. I heard some people
screaming, kind of high pitched screams.

576
01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:02.639
Sound anyone was like a scream of
fear. It sounded like more of a

577
01:02:02.679 --> 01:02:24.159
scream that someone's getting burned. We
were hoping that the women in that compound

578
01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:30.880
would grab their children and flee out. That did not occur. Unfortunately,

579
01:02:30.920 --> 01:02:34.079
they've bunkered down the children the best
we can tell, and they allowed those

580
01:02:34.159 --> 01:02:44.480
children to go get up in flames
with them. David Koresh, Steve Schneider,

581
01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:50.079
fifty two other adults, twenty five
children, and two trauma born infants

582
01:02:50.239 --> 01:03:05.239
perish in the April nineteenth fire.
The Davidian survivors were taken into custody by

583
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:15.599
FBI agents on the scene. No
Clive Doyle and other injured French Davidians were

584
01:03:15.599 --> 01:03:32.199
given emergency treatment at the FBI command
post. The uninjured Davidians were transferred to

585
01:03:32.280 --> 01:03:47.440
the custody of the ATF and booked
into the county jail. The reason we

586
01:03:47.480 --> 01:03:52.880
didn't wait was the thing I've tried
to say several times I'm not saying it

587
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:57.360
well enough. Is that from his
actions on the nineteenth when he made the

588
01:03:57.519 --> 01:04:01.360
when he had some of those people
killed when he my gunfire. Others died

589
01:04:01.400 --> 01:04:04.440
in the fire but not being able
to leave, which I think they were

590
01:04:04.440 --> 01:04:10.639
concerned most of the other's salvation.
That was his whole over then, is

591
01:04:10.679 --> 01:04:19.000
that he would dictate when that occurred. Many people would argue, your actions,

592
01:04:19.199 --> 01:04:24.199
how do you respond to their families. It's not because of our actions.

593
01:04:24.480 --> 01:04:28.519
Those children are dead because David Korsh
had been killed. There's no question

594
01:04:28.599 --> 01:04:31.400
about that. He had those fires
started, He had fifty one days to

595
01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:42.039
release those children. He chose those
children to die. I don't know who

596
01:04:42.079 --> 01:04:50.440
started the fire or fires. I
don't know who fired bullets into these people's

597
01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:59.639
bodies. I don't know from what
origin the bullets came from. So if

598
01:04:59.679 --> 01:05:05.400
we can completely agree that we do
not have a definitive answer of the sourcing

599
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:15.280
that in fact, what we have
is an open homicide. Is there anything

600
01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:19.559
that we've missed that we should go
after in the remaining two days, Yes,

601
01:05:19.599 --> 01:05:25.280
sir, I think we've missed some
of the questions as to as I

602
01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:30.599
mentioned earlier, why items of evidence
have disappeared, why the crime scene was

603
01:05:30.639 --> 01:05:36.960
destroyed before it could be evaluated.
These areas, especially the evidence disappearing.

604
01:05:41.199 --> 01:05:50.559
Okay, on to the next one. All right, here we go.

605
01:05:54.679 --> 01:05:58.760
You are listening to the hour of
the time. I'm William Cooper. Folks,

606
01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:01.880
if you want to check out the
number one source of news in the

607
01:06:01.880 --> 01:06:08.280
whole world, the best news that
there is anywhere, William Cooper dot net.

608
01:06:08.920 --> 01:06:14.039
William Cooper dot net. One more
time, William Cooper dot net.

609
01:06:14.920 --> 01:06:17.039
For those of you living in the
Round Valley, we are getting a new

610
01:06:17.079 --> 01:06:21.880
antenna for one on one point one
FM, which should triple our signal strength

611
01:06:23.800 --> 01:06:27.719
just the antenna alone. We're not
going to add any more power. We're

612
01:06:27.760 --> 01:06:30.719
at the maximum legal power that we
can do. But we can add an

613
01:06:30.719 --> 01:06:36.199
antenna that will multiply the signal strength
by about three times. We also have

614
01:06:36.519 --> 01:06:45.679
now our amplifier for Channel fifteen for
the Round Valley TV, and that's cost

615
01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:49.039
us a bunch of money, and
it's being built from scratch. Especially for

616
01:06:49.280 --> 01:06:53.519
us, it was hard to find. It took us a long time and

617
01:06:53.920 --> 01:07:00.800
I've got to publicly thank Scott Becker
for that. Now stay tuned for part

618
01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:12.400
two. Waco a new revelation.
I mean you have an essence a crime

619
01:07:12.480 --> 01:07:19.039
scene that was so seriously flawed through
ignorance or through an air of an elite

620
01:07:19.119 --> 01:07:25.880
mentality, or in fact, there
was a conscious decision made to not collect

621
01:07:26.199 --> 01:07:30.719
evidence for any sort of serious examination
other than to try and prove that the

622
01:07:30.760 --> 01:07:35.920
Davidians had weaponry and firepower enough to
kill federal agents. Some of these bodies

623
01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:45.360
exhibited characteristics of perhaps being shot.
Did anyone fire from any other location?

624
01:07:57.440 --> 01:08:01.159
The information that we've always been given
will that there was no federal gunfire on

625
01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:06.320
the day of April nineteenth. Well, in reviewing the photographs and the three

626
01:08:06.360 --> 01:08:11.599
oh two's, the statements in them, I would say there are some questions

627
01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:21.159
that need to be answered. The
FBI named the sniper positions Sierra one,

628
01:08:21.199 --> 01:08:28.800
Sierra two, Sierra three. On
April nineteenth, FBI Special Agent Charles Riley

629
01:08:28.880 --> 01:08:32.000
stated in his after action report that
he had heard shots fired that morning from

630
01:08:32.039 --> 01:08:38.720
sniper position number one, the undercover
house. The position was occupied by the

631
01:08:38.720 --> 01:08:46.000
Blue Sniper Team, led by Special
Agent LN Horiochi. Horyuchi stated that LN.

632
01:08:46.159 --> 01:08:53.279
Horyuchi, does anybody remember that name? He is the guy who shot

633
01:08:53.640 --> 01:09:02.439
Vicky Weaver in the head while she
was holding her baby at what, yeah,

634
01:09:02.600 --> 01:09:06.760
the Ruby Ridge incident that happened just
before this, well, you know,

635
01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:13.880
before this, neither he nor his
snipers fired their weapons on April nineteenth.

636
01:09:14.760 --> 01:09:19.079
The fact that Agent Haruchi states in
History or two that the snappers at

637
01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:23.199
Serra one, which was in the
cover house, did not fire, and

638
01:09:23.239 --> 01:09:27.399
there is a shalecase and expended shallcase
and they're visible on the floor with also

639
01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:32.640
lase of question four. Expended shellcasings
are later found at Sierra one, the

640
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:40.720
location of Agent Horiuchi's Blue Sniper team. What makes this particularly interesting is mister

641
01:09:40.760 --> 01:09:46.439
Horiuci coincidentally happens to be the FBI
agent who shot and killed Vicky Weaber at

642
01:09:46.520 --> 01:09:54.520
Ruby Ridge and had been charged with
manslaughter by the State of Idaho. In

643
01:09:54.560 --> 01:09:59.720
August nineteen ninety two, white separatists
Randy and Vicky Weaver were involved in a

644
01:09:59.760 --> 01:10:04.159
stand off with the FBI at their
Mountain home. Agent Horiuci shot and killed

645
01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:08.720
Vicky Weaver, who was standing in
the window of the door holding her ten

646
01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:14.359
month old daughter. She was standing
there holding baby in her arms, holding

647
01:10:14.359 --> 01:10:16.720
the door so we could get in
after they'd wounded me. And this guy

648
01:10:17.359 --> 01:10:26.039
is still running free. According to
an internal federal government investigation, Horiuci's shot

649
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:31.479
is termed unconstitutional loan Horiuci was never
tried. Seven months later, he was

650
01:10:31.520 --> 01:10:35.199
the leader of the Blue sniper team
at Waco, accompanied by most of the

651
01:10:35.239 --> 01:10:42.279
FBI team from Ruby Ridge. Our
desire was to get them out to use

652
01:10:42.359 --> 01:10:45.720
non lethal means in a systematic manner
so that they would come before the bar

653
01:10:45.800 --> 01:10:50.520
and face justice. We did not
want this to occur. At some point

654
01:10:50.720 --> 01:10:58.079
we had this up the ante.
He was continually fortifying. He was demanding

655
01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:01.439
and was seeking provocation to get into
a shootout with us, which we were

656
01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:06.920
refusing to do. According to the
FBI's on site activity log, at nine

657
01:11:06.960 --> 01:11:12.760
o three am, FBI Command advised
zero two that an unknown subject could be

658
01:11:12.800 --> 01:11:16.800
seen traveling on foot at the back
of the building. In this aerial photo

659
01:11:16.960 --> 01:11:21.279
taken at approximately nine am, a
Davidian appears to be leaving the building and

660
01:11:21.319 --> 01:11:27.039
walking toward the back of the compound. The log indicates that Falcon two,

661
01:11:27.199 --> 01:11:31.720
an FBI helicopter, took off to
intercept the subject. As it approaches Mount

662
01:11:31.760 --> 01:11:35.319
Carmel, Several flashes can be seen
coming from the side of the helicopter.

663
01:11:43.199 --> 01:11:47.479
Doctor Edward Allard, a former supervising
scientist in video and Television Imagery at the

664
01:11:47.560 --> 01:11:53.880
US government's Night Vision Directorate, examined
the helicopter footage and concludes that the flashes

665
01:11:53.920 --> 01:12:02.760
are gunfire. We analyze these flashes, as we have done in one sixtieth

666
01:12:02.800 --> 01:12:08.680
of a second time frames. It
appears that there's three shots coming from the

667
01:12:08.720 --> 01:12:13.199
helicopter, but in fact, each
one of those three shots can be broken

668
01:12:13.279 --> 01:12:17.319
down into one sixtieth time frames sixtieth
of a second, and we find,

669
01:12:17.319 --> 01:12:21.720
for instance, in the first flash, there is five separate shots being fired,

670
01:12:23.359 --> 01:12:28.920
and it's indicative of a machine gun
that's firing at about six hundred rounds

671
01:12:28.920 --> 01:12:34.479
per minuted. In this view of
one of the FBI's helicopters, a pedestal

672
01:12:34.520 --> 01:12:41.359
mounted machine gun can be clearly seen
in the doorway. FBI agents did not

673
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:47.079
return any fire throughout the entire day, in spite of being fired upon numerous

674
01:12:47.119 --> 01:12:54.760
times by occupants of the compound.
On the other hand, since this is

675
01:12:54.800 --> 01:12:59.840
on a helicopter, and people might
say that it's reflections from the windshield,

676
01:13:00.439 --> 01:13:04.079
it's impossible for these shots that you're
seeing with your own eyes that to be

677
01:13:04.119 --> 01:13:08.880
solar reflections, because if it were
so, the helicopter would have to be

678
01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:12.760
violently moving back and forth like a
mirror in your hands, and this is

679
01:13:12.800 --> 01:13:16.840
impossible. So it's it's in our
opinion that's clearly machine gun fire from the

680
01:13:16.880 --> 01:13:25.159
helicopter in coming out. The conversation
as I remember it was well if we

681
01:13:25.239 --> 01:13:30.079
come out, we we'll be shot. According to the autopsy reports, Philip

682
01:13:30.079 --> 01:13:33.399
Henry was shot several times in the
chest, shoulder, and head. Jimmy

683
01:13:33.479 --> 01:13:38.439
Riddle was shot once in the forehead. Neither of them had sot of accumulation

684
01:13:38.520 --> 01:13:42.800
in their trachea or bronchial tubes,
or carbon monoxide in their blood, indicating

685
01:13:42.840 --> 01:13:47.239
that they died before the fire started. Later, when I saw the autopsy

686
01:13:47.279 --> 01:13:51.640
report and seeing that he died of
a gunshot wounded the head, it made

687
01:13:51.640 --> 01:13:58.680
me wonder if it was in fact
the snappers that were in the barn garage

688
01:13:59.119 --> 01:14:04.199
that was in the back of the
The autopsy reports also indicated extensive body mutilation

689
01:14:04.279 --> 01:14:09.680
to Philip Henry and Jimmy Riddle.
The entire right side of Riddle's body from

690
01:14:09.720 --> 01:14:14.399
the shoulder to the hip had been
torn away. In previous testimony, doctor

691
01:14:14.479 --> 01:14:17.479
Nizam Kirwani, the medical examiner,
observed that this could have been the result

692
01:14:17.560 --> 01:14:29.720
of the collapse of the building or
an encounter with a tank tread. Philip

693
01:14:29.760 --> 01:14:33.119
Henry's body was interred during the year
following his death. However, a new

694
01:14:33.159 --> 01:14:39.880
autopsy was requested by Jimmy Riddle's relatives
to settle the circumstances surrounding the missing portion

695
01:14:39.960 --> 01:14:45.199
of Riddle's body and the gunshot wound
to his head. Doctor Ron Greser,

696
01:14:45.359 --> 01:14:49.680
the forensic pathologist who conducted the examination, concluded in his findings that the damage

697
01:14:49.720 --> 01:14:55.439
to Riddle's skeletal remains is consistent with
a tank having torn the body apart.

698
01:14:56.880 --> 01:15:00.359
A forensic examination of the bullet entry
wound in Jimmy riat skull could not be

699
01:15:00.399 --> 01:15:06.079
conducted because the evidentiary portion of the
skull was missing. Doctor Pierjuani performed the

700
01:15:06.119 --> 01:15:11.560
original autopsy and was asked to provide
a certified copy of his report for comparison.

701
01:15:13.119 --> 01:15:17.319
According to Riddle's relatives, the local
Texas authorities and US marshals refused to

702
01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:23.760
allow doctor Pierjuany to turn over the
documents. We got to doctor Pierjuany's office

703
01:15:24.119 --> 01:15:28.640
trying to get the information. I'm
my brother, Jimmy Riddle. Doctor Pierjuani

704
01:15:29.359 --> 01:15:34.479
told me that he didn't know why
they kept trying to keep the information promise.

705
01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:41.439
He didn't know what they were hiding, and that he had the information,

706
01:15:41.520 --> 01:15:45.760
but he was ordered by the US
marshals and the JPS not to release

707
01:15:45.800 --> 01:15:54.399
any information to me. While Americans
were watching events unfold at the front of

708
01:15:54.399 --> 01:15:58.439
the building, the FBI's infrared video
shows what took place at the rear of

709
01:15:58.479 --> 01:16:05.359
the structure. What a flair really
does is it takes invisible radiation, which

710
01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:12.119
is called infrared radiation, and it
converts it into visual radiation. You might

711
01:16:12.159 --> 01:16:19.319
say that we can see with the
eye. What we have here is a

712
01:16:19.439 --> 01:16:26.880
tank infantry type of an operation.
As the tank moves forward, two men

713
01:16:27.079 --> 01:16:30.960
have dropped out of the escape patch, they roll over, and as they

714
01:16:31.039 --> 01:16:38.560
roll over, they open up with
automatic gunfire. We've measured the actual time

715
01:16:39.239 --> 01:16:44.039
of the individual flashes, and they
occur at a fraction of a second,

716
01:16:44.319 --> 01:16:48.840
in some cases a thirtieth of a
second. There is absolutely nothing in nature

717
01:16:49.359 --> 01:16:57.399
that can cause thermoflashes to occur in
a thirtieth of a second. Somebody related

718
01:16:57.600 --> 01:17:01.439
or who had prepared a film or
analyze a film. Representatives of the Department

719
01:17:01.520 --> 01:17:05.479
and representatives of the FBI went over
it in detail and concluded that there was

720
01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:12.119
no basis for suggesting the shot that
shots had been fired. As the tank

721
01:17:12.159 --> 01:17:15.399
crushes the roof of the gymnasium,
gunfire can be seen streaming into the dining

722
01:17:15.479 --> 01:17:24.239
room from positions in the courtyard.
I stopped counting after about sixty two individual

723
01:17:24.279 --> 01:17:30.560
shots. Interviewed on NBC's Meet the
Press on May fourth, nineteen ninety seven,

724
01:17:30.079 --> 01:17:35.159
FBI Director Lewis Free stated that no
shots were fired by any federal agents

725
01:17:35.199 --> 01:17:41.600
outside of the compound, and that
allegations raised about gunfire seemed to be based

726
01:17:41.640 --> 01:17:45.840
on some inferences from infrarey flash patterns
and heat patterns. I think the overwhelming

727
01:17:45.840 --> 01:17:55.760
evidence clearly shows that no shots were
fired. It's indicative of sunlight reflecting off

728
01:17:55.800 --> 01:18:00.239
something and registering on the flare.
It could be a thermal pattern. If

729
01:18:00.239 --> 01:18:03.439
it were a thermal pattern, there
is nothing that persists from that, so

730
01:18:03.479 --> 01:18:09.000
therefore it is more likely to have
been reflected light off of something shiny,

731
01:18:09.479 --> 01:18:15.319
in which the sunlight now gives an
apparent temperaturize. From the basic physics,

732
01:18:15.359 --> 01:18:20.399
it's safe to say that it's impossible
for the Waco Fleir to detect any solar

733
01:18:20.399 --> 01:18:27.439
reflections of any kind on our wish
list. As investigators was taking a harder

734
01:18:27.439 --> 01:18:31.960
look at the Fleer, the Congressional
staff was never able to find or take

735
01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:38.600
advantage of a genuine Fleer expert to
watch the Fleer video with us and to

736
01:18:38.760 --> 01:18:45.199
understand exactly what we were seeing.
By comparison, this Department of Defense Fleer

737
01:18:45.319 --> 01:18:50.760
video taken in Somalia in October of
nineteen ninety three as troops exit a helicopter

738
01:18:51.119 --> 01:18:57.960
shows gunfires similar to the thermal signature
on the Fleer videotape at Waco. A

739
01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:02.000
former analyst from the US Intelligence god
Immunity, Maurice Cox, tested the FBI's

740
01:19:02.039 --> 01:19:12.359
claim, applying the principles of solar
geometry. For an aircraft flying at an

741
01:19:12.399 --> 01:19:15.720
altitude of nine thousand feet, a
flash anomaly occurring on the ground would be

742
01:19:15.800 --> 01:19:20.960
visible in an area only one hundred
feet wide. Frame by frame measurements of

743
01:19:21.000 --> 01:19:26.840
the Flair videotape showed a repetition of
ten flashes per second, the same rate

744
01:19:26.880 --> 01:19:30.399
as a machine gun firing at six
hundred rounds per minute. According to the

745
01:19:30.399 --> 01:19:36.199
sunlight Reflections Report. In order to
duplicate these multiple flashes, the reflective surfaces

746
01:19:36.239 --> 01:19:41.760
would have to be exactly the same
shape and size and positioned in an array

747
01:19:41.880 --> 01:19:47.279
too precise to occur by chance.
To record sunlight reflections at ten flashes per

748
01:19:47.319 --> 01:19:53.039
second, the FBI small aircraft would
have had to travel at mock one point

749
01:19:53.079 --> 01:20:00.960
eight, nearly twice the speed of
sounds. The sun Reflection Report concluded that

750
01:20:01.000 --> 01:20:05.800
the flash signatures on the Waco Flear
video could only have been caused by gunfire.

751
01:20:09.199 --> 01:20:14.479
In January nineteen ninety nine, mister
Cox challenged Director Free and Bureau scientists

752
01:20:14.479 --> 01:20:20.079
to disprove his findings. They did
not respond. If someone comes to me

753
01:20:21.359 --> 01:20:28.000
to understand the data, I need
to tell them the uncertainty associated with it.

754
01:20:28.680 --> 01:20:31.560
If the government is only telling them
this was not a field of fire,

755
01:20:32.640 --> 01:20:38.520
well the government is refusing to look
at this, and anybody with their

756
01:20:38.520 --> 01:20:43.279
playing eyes could see, well,
something's going on there. You know,

757
01:20:43.319 --> 01:20:45.439
when you think of the fact they're
shooting automatic weapons fire into a building with

758
01:20:45.560 --> 01:20:53.199
children in it, there's something wrong. Doctor Allard has stated that this video

759
01:20:53.359 --> 01:20:59.079
shows gunfire being directed into Mount Carmel
from the outside of Mount Carmel on April

760
01:20:59.159 --> 01:21:02.600
nineteenth, The only people that could
have come from would have been federal agents.

761
01:21:04.760 --> 01:21:09.079
Other flashes can be detected on the
Fleer tape within an hour of the

762
01:21:09.119 --> 01:21:13.479
fire, such as this detonation in
the courtyard, which has a thermal signature

763
01:21:13.520 --> 01:21:17.279
that is consistent with a hand grenade
exploding, and more gunfire can be seen

764
01:21:17.319 --> 01:21:25.199
near this tank. But if the
FBI's claim is true and the hostage rescue

765
01:21:25.199 --> 01:21:30.880
team didn't fire at Ranch Davidians,
then there is another possibility. According to

766
01:21:30.960 --> 01:21:34.560
what we saw written in the Book
of Mayhew, we were to undergo a

767
01:21:34.600 --> 01:21:41.199
military style attack. We were to
be attacked by tanks and people from the

768
01:21:41.239 --> 01:21:47.560
military. On the use of military
personnel and heavy equipment against US citizens.

769
01:21:47.680 --> 01:21:54.159
Other questions linger how much was used
and why there was concern express that the

770
01:21:54.199 --> 01:22:00.199
FBI had only one hostage rescue team
and they were tiring. Do you recall

771
01:22:00.279 --> 01:22:05.399
that conversation in that meeting, I
recall I believe I asked for that meeting.

772
01:22:05.520 --> 01:22:11.399
Yes. On April fourteenth, just
five days before the fire, a

773
01:22:11.479 --> 01:22:15.199
meeting was held between Attorney General Janet
Reno, the FBI command team, and

774
01:22:15.279 --> 01:22:20.760
Special Forces commanders. Brigadier General Peter
J. Schumacher and Colonel Gerald Boykin of

775
01:22:20.840 --> 01:22:26.000
Delta Force. The purpose of this
meeting was to convince Reno to authorize a

776
01:22:26.039 --> 01:22:32.439
final assault at Waco. Military is
trained to find, fix, and destroy

777
01:22:32.520 --> 01:22:39.840
the enemy. You don't worry about
warning your military enemy of constitutional rights.

778
01:22:43.399 --> 01:22:48.159
What is generally known or known in
public as Delta Force is a reality called

779
01:22:48.239 --> 01:22:55.039
Combat Applications Group. So anybody who
asks about Delta will get told with a

780
01:22:55.079 --> 01:23:00.319
straight face by the Army that no
such organization exists. What organization does exists

781
01:23:00.359 --> 01:23:05.039
as Combat Applications Group, and their
state admission is to perform counter terrorism operations

782
01:23:05.079 --> 01:23:13.199
overseas and defensive US interests. Earlier
in an opening I gave this morning with

783
01:23:13.199 --> 01:23:16.399
regard to the Posse Commatatis Act,
just to refresh my colleagues memories. The

784
01:23:17.039 --> 01:23:21.279
kind of tatas statute is a criminal
statute that states that it's a crime to

785
01:23:21.359 --> 01:23:25.079
use any part of the army or
air force to enforce the laws of the

786
01:23:25.119 --> 01:23:29.960
land unless authorized by Congress or the
Constitution. There is, in my judgment,

787
01:23:30.760 --> 01:23:34.800
it is absolutely clear that no law
was violated, no action was taken

788
01:23:34.880 --> 01:23:41.479
that comes close to violating Posse comitatus
or any other law. General Huffman,

789
01:23:41.800 --> 01:23:45.359
is that your Do you agree with
that, Congressman? So far as the

790
01:23:45.479 --> 01:23:50.920
Army is involvement in this, I
would say that is correct. An Army

791
01:23:51.000 --> 01:23:57.640
Delta, any Terrist, or any
other military operational asset. The question is

792
01:23:57.680 --> 01:24:01.199
are we getting any help from from
the military? King to the Delta teams?

793
01:24:02.399 --> 01:24:05.199
Asked the questions, are we getting
help from the Delta team and we're

794
01:24:05.239 --> 01:24:14.000
not. In mid March nineteen ninety
three, I attended a Senior Executive staff

795
01:24:14.039 --> 01:24:20.319
meeting at CIA Headquarters and it involved
senior agency management along with the liaison officers

796
01:24:20.399 --> 01:24:28.119
from the US military, in particular
from Delta Group. The briefing centered on

797
01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:42.800
Delta's operations in Waco, Texas.
This previously classified military document confirms the presence

798
01:24:42.840 --> 01:24:45.880
of Delta Force at Mount Carmel with
approval of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

799
01:24:46.199 --> 01:24:50.359
An observer was deployed to the scene
on March twenty first, nineteen ninety three,

800
01:24:50.840 --> 01:25:00.640
accompanied by three other operators also characterized
as observers. One particular was questioned

801
01:25:00.880 --> 01:25:04.439
by a member of the hearing and
pressed and pressed he did not want to

802
01:25:04.479 --> 01:25:09.680
reveal even the existence of Delta Force
and finally had to admit that they were

803
01:25:09.720 --> 01:25:14.359
present. Originally, I was told
that there was just going to be one

804
01:25:14.399 --> 01:25:18.119
or two Delta personnel there as observers. But during the briefing it was mentioned

805
01:25:18.159 --> 01:25:23.000
that there was over ten Delta operators
at Waco, Texas, and they were

806
01:25:23.039 --> 01:25:27.880
not there merely as observers, but
would be participating in any type of operational

807
01:25:28.000 --> 01:25:32.560
or tactical effort against the Branch Davidians. My understanding is that in some way

808
01:25:33.520 --> 01:25:40.359
the US Military Delta Force were advising
the hostage Rescue team from inside the tanks

809
01:25:40.880 --> 01:25:45.760
or inside the Brady fighting vehicles,
or were present at the sniper posts to

810
01:25:45.840 --> 01:25:51.319
provide support or assistance. And those
types of activities to me would mean for

811
01:25:51.600 --> 01:26:00.119
deployed they were not back at a
conference room or table giving advice or and

812
01:26:00.159 --> 01:26:02.439
you ought to think about this year, they were out there a working shoulders

813
01:26:02.479 --> 01:26:13.159
soldier with the HRT. Approximately a
year after the Waco incident, I was

814
01:26:13.199 --> 01:26:18.319
deployed overseas in Europe and I had
the chance to meet some of the Delta

815
01:26:18.359 --> 01:26:25.640
operators that I had been on previous
assignments. They had told me several different

816
01:26:25.640 --> 01:26:30.680
occasions during my meets with them in
Europe that not only were they forwardly deployed

817
01:26:30.319 --> 01:26:33.399
at Waco, Texas. But they
were actually involved in a gunfight with the

818
01:26:33.439 --> 01:26:41.000
Branch Davidians. When you see the
individuals roll off from the tank and come

819
01:26:41.039 --> 01:26:43.319
around the size and start shooting in
from the building, what they're doing,

820
01:26:43.399 --> 01:26:46.720
they're defending the vehicle. The f
HRT or kind of the applications group,

821
01:26:46.960 --> 01:26:51.439
whoever was pulling the triggers, expected
resistance, expected shots to be fired.

822
01:26:51.560 --> 01:26:57.239
Then their moves on April nineteenth made
tactical sense. But I did talk to

823
01:26:57.279 --> 01:27:00.760
some Combat Applications Group, but the
guys and they did confirm that, yes,

824
01:27:01.159 --> 01:27:11.880
the portions of B Squadron were there
pulling triggers. There's no doubt in

825
01:27:11.920 --> 01:27:16.119
my mind that the flashes on flair
tape was far from us any automatic or

826
01:27:16.119 --> 01:27:20.159
automatic weapon farre being returned into the
building. I mean, it's inconsistent to

827
01:27:20.159 --> 01:27:25.520
even think otherwise. There were people
there on the ground with automatic weapons,

828
01:27:25.840 --> 01:27:28.880
and flashes such as that only come
from one thing, and it comes from

829
01:27:29.359 --> 01:27:34.239
rifle barrels that are that are firing
back into the building. Their operators had

830
01:27:34.279 --> 01:27:42.560
penetrated the buildings on several occasions,
planning surveillance devices, listening devices, sensors,

831
01:27:43.039 --> 01:27:46.720
and on one occasion, I believe
it was April seventeenth, late seventeenth,

832
01:27:46.720 --> 01:27:51.399
early eighteenth, Koresh was actually within
six feet of one of the operators

833
01:27:53.119 --> 01:27:56.520
and they radio it back to the
Tactical Operations Center for permission to grab them.

834
01:27:57.720 --> 01:28:00.159
Within minutes, the word came back
from Justice Department. No, we

835
01:28:00.159 --> 01:28:02.399
already have a plan in place,
that plan, of course, being what

836
01:28:02.479 --> 01:28:09.840
happened on April nineteenth. To me, that would be an offensive gesture when

837
01:28:09.840 --> 01:28:15.000
you enter someone's home. That's pretty
offensive, and I would personally have a

838
01:28:15.119 --> 01:28:20.279
problem with that. I think that
it violates everything that I've been taught that

839
01:28:20.359 --> 01:28:27.640
you don't use a military against civilian
personnel in this country. Reports that the

840
01:28:27.680 --> 01:28:30.319
military Delta forcement have been involved in
one way or another, will you make

841
01:28:30.359 --> 01:28:35.760
an inquig into that as well.
We will pursue any issue that is in

842
01:28:35.920 --> 01:28:45.600
question. I will not let this
become a show trial with law enforcement as

843
01:28:45.640 --> 01:28:53.840
the defendant. These Waco hearings must
not degenerate into a kangaroo court. It

844
01:28:53.920 --> 01:28:58.079
is unfair for us today to look
at what law enforcement did at Waco in

845
01:28:58.159 --> 01:29:02.119
a vacuum, and it is unfair
to twist the facts, making law enforcement

846
01:29:02.159 --> 01:29:09.760
the villain, and David Koresh,
the lawbreaker, the victim. David Koresh,

847
01:29:09.920 --> 01:29:14.079
you may not think he was innocent. The mothers and the fathers of

848
01:29:14.119 --> 01:29:17.920
the children, you may not think
were innocent, But those seventeen children that

849
01:29:18.039 --> 01:29:24.640
died here were truly innocent. We
had heard during the meeting various scenarios that

850
01:29:24.680 --> 01:29:28.319
they were going to use down in
Waco, Texas to try to bring a

851
01:29:28.319 --> 01:29:32.279
speedy recovery or speedy end to what
was taking place down there, And at

852
01:29:32.279 --> 01:29:39.359
that time, guess was talked about. A couple other situations were non lethal

853
01:29:39.399 --> 01:29:43.960
situations were talked about, and the
primary concern around the table was a lot

854
01:29:43.960 --> 01:29:46.359
of the people that a lot of
the Branch Davidians that were inside the building,

855
01:29:46.840 --> 01:29:51.079
we're willing or did not want to
end their lives in such a fashion,

856
01:29:51.439 --> 01:30:00.079
especially the seventeen children that were down
there. Who's God's sad on the

857
01:30:00.159 --> 01:30:08.720
throne? Who's that out point?
Where's God lived? He's he gonna save

858
01:30:08.800 --> 01:30:15.920
you? How come? Well?
People ask why we didn't let the children

859
01:30:16.000 --> 01:30:21.520
out? If they saw all that
was happening and they were in there with

860
01:30:21.600 --> 01:30:26.479
their children, would they have sent
them out to the animals outside? That

861
01:30:26.560 --> 01:30:34.319
was shooting at them and doing all
those terrible things. No, federal law

862
01:30:34.399 --> 01:30:41.119
enforcement officers obviously did make some tactical
errors prior to and during this tragic incident,

863
01:30:41.560 --> 01:30:46.119
and I hope this body, somebody
holds them accountable. Please, I'm

864
01:30:46.119 --> 01:30:50.760
pleading with you, somebody out there. When the federal government still screwed up

865
01:30:50.800 --> 01:30:56.960
big tank. Okay, but they
didn't start this fire. Based upon the

866
01:30:57.000 --> 01:31:03.720
ATF's arson investigation, accelerants were used
at all points of origin of the fire.

867
01:31:03.359 --> 01:31:09.479
There was no disagreement between us that
this fire was intentionally started inside the

868
01:31:09.520 --> 01:31:14.359
compound by the people in there using
flammable liquid as accelerants. I don't remember

869
01:31:14.359 --> 01:31:20.000
who it was, but he was
pouring this liquid on the floor and Bubble

870
01:31:20.039 --> 01:31:33.039
was saying, I pour it inside, pour it outside. It was clear

871
01:31:33.079 --> 01:31:36.720
to us from listening to those tapes
that the government was going to be able

872
01:31:36.720 --> 01:31:41.600
to prove that the Davidians, at
least some of the Davidians had a plan,

873
01:31:41.720 --> 01:31:45.479
and that some of the Davidians were
aware of this plan. I'm sure

874
01:31:45.520 --> 01:31:50.479
that the FBI down there had a
lot of fiber optics, audio and visual

875
01:31:50.600 --> 01:31:55.359
equipment installed in the building there.
I'm sure they knew exactly what the parents

876
01:31:55.439 --> 01:32:00.279
Davidian's plans were, what their intentions
were if there was an attack inst the

877
01:32:00.279 --> 01:32:04.000
buildings, such as a gas attack
like that, if they believe we were

878
01:32:04.000 --> 01:32:11.079
going to try to enter the compound
and then wait the over here sounded like

879
01:32:11.239 --> 01:32:14.479
there was one comment that we're going
to wait until they come in before we

880
01:32:14.640 --> 01:32:19.279
like this. Why in the world
would the FBI make the assault knowing that

881
01:32:19.359 --> 01:32:26.399
information the border lines on criminal misconduct
For the FBI to make that assault when

882
01:32:26.439 --> 01:32:30.000
they knew that he was going to
respond like that, particularly on the most

883
01:32:30.079 --> 01:32:35.359
windy day of the year. The
FBI claimed that it never used pyrotechnic CS

884
01:32:35.479 --> 01:32:41.640
rounds munitions capable of starting a fire. However, in this footage made prior

885
01:32:41.680 --> 01:32:45.760
to the fire, two agents are
seen firing projectiles from an M seventy nine

886
01:32:45.800 --> 01:32:49.319
grenade launcher into the storm shelter at
the north end of the building. Seconds

887
01:32:49.399 --> 01:32:58.079
later, white smoke pours from the
shelter. According to CS expert Colonel Rex

888
01:32:58.119 --> 01:33:03.520
Applegate, any tear gas that create
smoke is considered pyrotechnic. There's been some

889
01:33:04.560 --> 01:33:11.600
unfortunate reporting talking about that if tear
gas were utilized, it would deprive the

890
01:33:11.720 --> 01:33:15.520
children of oxygen and it perhaps could
be fatal. What they were describing is

891
01:33:15.560 --> 01:33:20.000
not the type of tear gas that
we are using. We're using a non

892
01:33:20.039 --> 01:33:25.479
pyrotechnic type of tear gas which does
not deprive them of oxygen, so it

893
01:33:25.560 --> 01:33:30.960
is not a lethal type gas.
This is the US Military Mark six point

894
01:33:30.920 --> 01:33:35.159
fifty one CS projectile recovered in the
aftermath of the Mount Carmel fire. It

895
01:33:35.239 --> 01:33:40.239
is pyrotechnic and has a burning time
of twenty five to thirty seconds. It

896
01:33:40.319 --> 01:33:47.119
generates a distinctive cloud of white smoke. I am very, very troubled by

897
01:33:47.159 --> 01:33:53.680
the information I received this week suggesting
that pyrotechnic devices may have been used in

898
01:33:53.720 --> 01:34:00.319
the early morning hours on April nineteenth, nineteen ninety three, at Waco time.

899
01:34:00.399 --> 01:34:03.600
All available indications are that the devices
were not directed at the main Wooden

900
01:34:03.640 --> 01:34:09.800
compound, were discharged several hours before
the fire started, and were not the

901
01:34:09.800 --> 01:34:15.680
cause of the fire. In the
fall of nineteen ninety eight, unprecedented access

902
01:34:15.720 --> 01:34:21.239
to the Waco evidence lockers was granted. The pyrotechnic projectiles identified in the crime

903
01:34:21.279 --> 01:34:27.720
scene photos were missing from the evidence
boxes. However, two additional forty milimeters

904
01:34:27.800 --> 01:34:33.399
munitions were found. These devices are
identified by the manufacturer's literature as pyrotechnic rounds.

905
01:34:33.960 --> 01:34:39.479
They were found in the rubble behind
the compound. These munitions were examined

906
01:34:39.800 --> 01:34:55.840
and the preliminary results indicated these devices
may have passed through the wood structure.

907
01:35:00.159 --> 01:35:15.439
Probably. I'm not embarrassed, I'm
very, very upset. The Arson report

908
01:35:15.520 --> 01:35:19.479
fails to identify the specific instruments used
to ignite the fires or the individuals that

909
01:35:19.560 --> 01:35:25.119
might have used those instruments. As
a result, no Arson charges were ever

910
01:35:25.159 --> 01:35:30.119
filed against any of the branch Davidians. What is not covered in the Arson

911
01:35:30.199 --> 01:35:33.399
report is the presence of the government's
own pyrotechnic devices at the points of origin

912
01:35:33.439 --> 01:35:38.279
of the fire. This flash bang
device, for example, was found in

913
01:35:38.319 --> 01:35:45.399
the rubble of the dining room.
The flash that results as the detonation of

914
01:35:45.439 --> 01:35:55.800
this charge can cause a fire in
any area where there is a high concentration

915
01:35:56.399 --> 01:36:00.479
of volatile vapors. In the evidence
locker, there are six pyrotechnic flash bang

916
01:36:00.520 --> 01:36:06.079
grenades mislabeled as silencers or gun parts. According to the Texas Department of Public

917
01:36:06.119 --> 01:36:11.199
Safety, they were found in the
southwest corner of the building, the dining

918
01:36:11.279 --> 01:36:16.279
room and the chapel. All three
points of origin of the fire. Now,

919
01:36:16.319 --> 01:36:21.039
maybe the government, the FBI,
the ATF did some wrong things,

920
01:36:21.680 --> 01:36:27.159
but they didn't light the fire.
They didn't start the fire. That is

921
01:36:27.199 --> 01:36:32.399
not one of these questions that is
very debatable. There are times when you

922
01:36:32.560 --> 01:36:45.760
cannot keep your job and put alternative
explanations for data on the table. Any

923
01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:48.439
of us can think about, yeah, I we'll stand a building burn up.

924
01:36:48.520 --> 01:36:51.479
I don't think many people would do
it, and I don't understand why

925
01:36:51.479 --> 01:36:59.039
they didn't come out. At twelve
ten pm, the Fleer videotape shows at

926
01:36:59.119 --> 01:37:01.920
least two automatic weapons being fired into
the back of the burning dining room,

927
01:37:02.319 --> 01:37:13.039
the only undamaged exit from the building. And what we have is we have

928
01:37:13.239 --> 01:37:17.760
then firing automatic weapons and they're firing
into the burning building, and like some

929
01:37:17.840 --> 01:37:21.840
sort of a cowboy movie, they're
retreating down the building and firing as they're

930
01:37:21.840 --> 01:37:28.760
retreating. I cannot remember something more
sickening that I had the due to witness

931
01:37:28.800 --> 01:37:33.399
this. According to the Justice Department
report, at least fifteen people were found

932
01:37:33.399 --> 01:37:41.159
shot to death at this location.
The FBI conducted ballistic tests, which the

933
01:37:41.279 --> 01:37:46.760
Justice Department later termed inconclusive and rudimentary
at best, whether or not. You

934
01:37:47.000 --> 01:37:51.279
argue that some people committed suicide,
yes, that may be, but I

935
01:37:51.319 --> 01:38:00.640
would say the majority of the people
the bodies that I saw were clearcut homicide

936
01:38:00.720 --> 01:38:06.159
victims. When there was shooting going
on and things like that. It's kind

937
01:38:06.159 --> 01:38:09.680
of tongue in cheeked and ten men
and say, why didn't you come out

938
01:38:15.640 --> 01:38:23.720
as a peace officer. You're trained
that killing people and taking someone's life is

939
01:38:23.760 --> 01:38:30.399
the absolute last thing that you ever
want to do. Period. You signed

940
01:38:30.439 --> 01:38:38.319
on to help people, you didn't
sign on to kill them. If the

941
01:38:38.399 --> 01:38:43.800
opinion is rendered that there was no
shots fired from any other location other than

942
01:38:43.880 --> 01:38:48.520
from within the building, i e. Meaning the branch Davidians shot themselves through

943
01:38:48.560 --> 01:38:56.000
suicide or homicide, then the government
is left with a position that we are

944
01:38:56.039 --> 01:39:02.319
not going to do ballistics tasks on
any one weapons, whether they be bureau

945
01:39:02.359 --> 01:39:11.520
officials or other officials that might have
been on the scene. The forensic evidence

946
01:39:11.560 --> 01:39:16.199
on the bodies themselves is very trouble. The bodies were preserved in a frozen

947
01:39:16.279 --> 01:39:23.560
or near frozen state inside two trailers
for the purpose of examination. For some

948
01:39:23.640 --> 01:39:28.800
reason, those trailers who were under
the control of the FBI were allowed to

949
01:39:29.720 --> 01:39:34.960
not have any electricity running to them, and the bodies deteriorated beyond which any

950
01:39:35.000 --> 01:39:39.479
sort of forensic evidence could be gathered. And we were very, very troubled

951
01:39:39.520 --> 01:39:45.399
by that the crime scene was declared
a biohazard, and since the FBI predetermined

952
01:39:45.439 --> 01:39:50.000
that this was a mass suicide,
the crime scene investigators were instructed to sift,

953
01:39:50.640 --> 01:39:55.520
wash, and bleach the evidence associated
with the bodies, destroying much of

954
01:39:55.560 --> 01:40:00.159
its evidentiary value, grinding up all
the other crimes. And I'm standing to

955
01:40:00.159 --> 01:40:03.680
myself on what the hell are they
doing that for, except for are they

956
01:40:03.880 --> 01:40:08.000
conveniently trying to cover up something that
they don't want the public to know.

957
01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:13.840
During the siege, some of the
women and all of the children were sent

958
01:40:13.920 --> 01:40:16.800
to the bunker located in the center
of the compound. The monker was an

959
01:40:16.800 --> 01:40:23.720
old church records vault which had survived
a fire several years before. It is

960
01:40:23.800 --> 01:40:27.880
here that the remains of some of
the women and the young children were found.

961
01:40:29.720 --> 01:40:34.960
Based upon the fact that the majority
of the women and children protected themselves

962
01:40:35.479 --> 01:40:41.720
by dousing themselves with water and blankets, trying to keep the smoke to a

963
01:40:41.800 --> 01:40:49.439
minimum, trying to prolong themselves or
life in a nearly fireproof container clearly demonstrates

964
01:40:49.439 --> 01:40:53.479
that they weren't embracing the flame,
that they were trying to flee the flame.

965
01:40:54.720 --> 01:40:58.640
According to their autopsy reports, some
of the children were still alive during

966
01:40:58.680 --> 01:41:01.439
the fire, but upon the condition
of their bodies, there was evidence of

967
01:41:01.439 --> 01:41:12.640
a deadly explosion. I read that
the FBI on foot, entered the building,

968
01:41:12.880 --> 01:41:16.840
shot the Davidians, and planted an
explosive device on top of the church

969
01:41:16.960 --> 01:41:19.479
vault that he called it. We
referred to it as the bunker because it's

970
01:41:19.479 --> 01:41:25.920
a concrete cinder block. That's another
theory that did not could not have possibly

971
01:41:25.960 --> 01:41:31.079
happened in this particular incident. Referring
to that explosion, the explosion happened well

972
01:41:31.119 --> 01:41:40.560
after the building was totally destroyed.
It was very unlikely that that explosion was

973
01:41:40.600 --> 01:41:46.279
anything other than a propane cylinder.
The fireball was created by a ruptured propane

974
01:41:46.359 --> 01:41:50.319
tank on the ground adjacent to the
bunker. But a large hole in the

975
01:41:50.399 --> 01:41:57.279
roof of the bunker has never had
an official acknowledgment or explanation. What it

976
01:41:57.319 --> 01:42:00.680
tells me is that you had a
demolition charge who went on on the roof.

977
01:42:03.840 --> 01:42:09.680
General Ben Parton, a former military
explosive expert testified that there were two

978
01:42:09.760 --> 01:42:14.600
explosions. This footage shows the detonation
of a high explosive device on the bunker,

979
01:42:14.880 --> 01:42:26.000
which appears to ignite gas from a
ruptured propane tank. After completion of

980
01:42:26.000 --> 01:42:30.479
the FBI in Texas Rangers investigation,
the bunker was bulldozed into rubble. Six

981
01:42:30.560 --> 01:42:34.479
years later, in nineteen ninety nine, permission was granted to test the residue

982
01:42:34.520 --> 01:42:39.520
from the blacks. Strangely, however, that portion of the bunker was not

983
01:42:39.720 --> 01:42:45.239
found after a thorough search of the
rubble. That's a childs I mean,

984
01:42:45.279 --> 01:42:47.680
that's just a little bit a one
year old. Yeah, see this boom?

985
01:42:47.920 --> 01:42:57.039
Yeah, you know. According to
the FBI and ATF investigation, the

986
01:42:57.079 --> 01:43:01.319
Branch Davidians did possess some low order
explosives like gunpowder, but this would not

987
01:43:01.359 --> 01:43:05.880
be capable of penetrating six to eight
inches of steel reinforced concrete like a high

988
01:43:05.960 --> 01:43:12.119
order explosive such as TNT. The
blast hole at the top of the roof

989
01:43:12.840 --> 01:43:16.640
you can plainly see the rebar is
spent in. The damage to the stainless

990
01:43:16.680 --> 01:43:21.800
steel refrigerator, which appears to have
been under the blast hole, is consistent

991
01:43:21.840 --> 01:43:27.880
with a shape charge, and the
blast being directed downward into the room in

992
01:43:27.920 --> 01:43:33.399
this enclosed concrete room would very likely
cause some seam rupture and create a huge

993
01:43:33.399 --> 01:43:40.560
overpressure inside the room that would pretty
much kill everybody in there. Anybody who

994
01:43:40.640 --> 01:43:45.800
was under this device when it was
blown would have been horribly mangled, probably

995
01:43:45.880 --> 01:43:58.119
dismembered, pretty much like being thrown
into a grain thrusher. Having examined still

996
01:43:58.199 --> 01:44:06.880
photographs and videotape of the bunker,
it was apparent to me that this was

997
01:44:08.000 --> 01:44:15.199
caused by a shape charge. But
what bothers me is who would have the

998
01:44:15.239 --> 01:44:23.239
audacity to use such a charge rather
than risk your own people going in there

999
01:44:23.239 --> 01:44:27.560
and trying to shoot it out with
them. It's a standard, it's a

1000
01:44:27.560 --> 01:44:34.039
standard tactic in city fighting. Children
and women unarmed China, save their lives,

1001
01:44:34.199 --> 01:44:40.000
that's who he's talking about, trying
to protect themselves from. And military

1002
01:44:40.000 --> 01:44:45.720
operations built up terrain to use explosives
in this manner to kill people in the

1003
01:44:45.760 --> 01:44:50.199
targeted room. That you're going with
that, The military's advice to the FBI

1004
01:44:50.640 --> 01:44:58.199
was that it should focus on the
leadership and capture or kill David Koresh was

1005
01:44:58.239 --> 01:45:00.680
to our benefit that we were able
to vent him from carrying out the second

1006
01:45:00.720 --> 01:45:05.000
part of his prophecy, and that
is that he intended to kill as many

1007
01:45:05.439 --> 01:45:11.000
members of law enforcement as he could
before his members were killed. It was

1008
01:45:11.000 --> 01:45:14.960
to our benefit, and we're most
fortunate then none of our people were injured.

1009
01:45:15.359 --> 01:45:23.920
Well, it's very obvious that the
effort there was demonstrated there assured that

1010
01:45:23.920 --> 01:45:34.640
there would be no survivors. In
the Church record's vault was the Attorney General

1011
01:45:35.079 --> 01:45:39.640
pressured by the White House to end
the siege? What were the roles of

1012
01:45:39.680 --> 01:45:44.600
Webster Hubble and Vince Foster who actually
made the decision? You used cs gas

1013
01:45:44.640 --> 01:45:47.760
with twenty two children inside of the
Vidian compound? After two years? Why

1014
01:45:47.840 --> 01:45:56.000
is there still no clear answer?
Rangers had this. Remember it's pretty darn

1015
01:45:56.159 --> 01:46:02.000
likely that Clintons had Vince Foster killed
two culties. Working with the FBI,

1016
01:46:02.680 --> 01:46:06.520
they had a major responsibility. We
had our responsibility, and they seemed not

1017
01:46:06.640 --> 01:46:11.439
to go hand in hand. And
as I recall, I testified for Congress

1018
01:46:11.439 --> 01:46:15.640
about having a name in the White
House. I could have called to solicit

1019
01:46:15.159 --> 01:46:19.520
the support of the federal authorities in
our objective, and it turned out to

1020
01:46:19.560 --> 01:46:29.000
be Vince Foster. Mister Hubblem,
do you recall a meeting on or about

1021
01:46:29.359 --> 01:46:35.880
the fourteenth or fifteenth of April that
you attended with Vince Foster, with mister

1022
01:46:36.279 --> 01:46:42.640
Noosebaum, and I guess some others
in which was really a turning point.

1023
01:46:42.760 --> 01:46:46.760
Did you or others at that meeting
recommend or was there any discussion about the

1024
01:46:46.840 --> 01:46:51.760
use of military force or equipment.
There was not any discussion about use of

1025
01:46:51.800 --> 01:47:00.319
military force. There was discussion of
having the military evaluate the FBI's plan.

1026
01:47:01.960 --> 01:47:08.479
The briefings by General Schumacher and Colonel
Boykin of Delta Force gave Attorney General Janet

1027
01:47:08.520 --> 01:47:14.319
Reno the assurances she needed to okay
the FBI assault plan. Presidential Council vents.

1028
01:47:14.359 --> 01:47:17.600
Foster was the White House's point man
for the Waco affair. Ninety days

1029
01:47:17.640 --> 01:47:23.640
later, Foster commits suicide. He
had a lot of things on his plate

1030
01:47:23.680 --> 01:47:27.520
at the time, the firing the
Travel Office being one, but nobody was

1031
01:47:27.600 --> 01:47:33.680
killed in that one. What I
think was really on his mind was Waco.

1032
01:47:35.720 --> 01:47:39.560
I to this day, I don't
understand what he meant by the FBI

1033
01:47:39.680 --> 01:47:47.119
lied to me. Missus Foster said
that her husband was depressed about a number

1034
01:47:47.119 --> 01:47:56.800
of matters, and she ranked the
Waco tragedy very high, as any of

1035
01:47:56.880 --> 01:48:02.319
us would who were responsible for such
an activity that resulted in such a tragedy.

1036
01:48:03.439 --> 01:48:08.680
In this FBI THREEHO two report,
Missus Foster indicates that her husband was

1037
01:48:08.720 --> 01:48:12.880
troubled by the deaths of the children
at Waco and believe that everything was his

1038
01:48:13.000 --> 01:48:19.279
fault. When you are troubled by
something and you feel responsible for something,

1039
01:48:20.199 --> 01:48:24.600
you can only feel responsible for it
if you could have done something about it.

1040
01:48:26.600 --> 01:48:29.119
And I would take this as a
cover up of the Clinton's actions that

1041
01:48:29.199 --> 01:48:33.000
actually kill him because they were afraid
he was going to talk. Perhaps mister

1042
01:48:34.479 --> 01:48:40.479
Foster felt that he could have done
something about Waco, whether he tried to

1043
01:48:40.520 --> 01:48:48.920
intervene, whether he was overruled.
The extensive use of governmental privileges against grand

1044
01:48:49.000 --> 01:48:56.800
jury and criminal investigations has of course
been a pattern through this administration. Most

1045
01:48:56.840 --> 01:49:01.479
notably, the White House cited privilege
in nineteen ninety to prevent Justice Department and

1046
01:49:01.600 --> 01:49:09.720
Park Police officials from reviewing documents in
Vincent Foster's office in the days after his

1047
01:49:09.840 --> 01:49:14.399
tragic death. The day after Vince
Foster died, I got a phone call

1048
01:49:14.439 --> 01:49:18.520
from a fellow who used to be
on my squad who told me that they

1049
01:49:19.079 --> 01:49:25.079
not explaining who they were, but
they had agreed that the FBI was going

1050
01:49:25.159 --> 01:49:31.560
to come over and do a regular
crime scene search of Vince Foster's office.

1051
01:49:31.880 --> 01:49:38.079
During the Whitewater investigation, Deborah Gorum
testified she saw a Waco file in the

1052
01:49:38.119 --> 01:49:43.960
security file cabinet next to mister Foster's
desk. In addition, Michael Chertoff,

1053
01:49:44.079 --> 01:49:47.920
Council for the Senate Committee, inquired
about a letter by Vince Foster involving Waco.

1054
01:49:48.920 --> 01:49:53.760
Neither was ever recovered during or after
the crime scene search, and their

1055
01:49:53.840 --> 01:50:00.640
whereabouts are still unknown. However,
White House Secret Service agent Harry O'Neill testified

1056
01:50:00.640 --> 01:50:05.359
that Maggie Williams was seen removing files
from Foster's office the night of his death.

1057
01:50:06.279 --> 01:50:12.199
Thomas Castleton, an intern and mister
Foster's assistant, testified that he had

1058
01:50:12.239 --> 01:50:15.960
also removed a box of files.
Just let you know where we are in

1059
01:50:15.960 --> 01:50:21.319
the state of the record. We
have received evidence that, in fact the

1060
01:50:21.399 --> 01:50:26.840
box was in mister Forster's office.
Did you understand the box you were taking

1061
01:50:26.920 --> 01:50:31.359
up was a box of files that
originated in mister Foster's office. I did

1062
01:50:31.520 --> 01:50:34.640
understand that, sir. You heard
that from Maggie Williams. Yes, And

1063
01:50:34.680 --> 01:50:38.600
in fact, it was Maggie Williams, the chief of staff to the First

1064
01:50:38.680 --> 01:50:43.560
Lady, that you accompanied in taking
this box up to the residence. Right,

1065
01:50:43.760 --> 01:50:48.439
that's right. What were you told
by Maggie Williams about why the box

1066
01:50:48.600 --> 01:50:53.920
was being taken up to the residence. I was told that the contents of

1067
01:50:53.960 --> 01:50:58.079
the box needed to be reviewed,
reviewed by whom by the first Lady,

1068
01:50:59.319 --> 01:51:04.960
Maggie Williams was Missus Clinton's chief of
staff. Maggie Williams took out, can't

1069
01:51:04.960 --> 01:51:08.600
big youth, You can't call anything
else but what it is. It was

1070
01:51:08.680 --> 01:51:14.520
evidence. One of the interesting things
that happens in an investigation is you begin

1071
01:51:14.560 --> 01:51:18.479
to get anonymous phone calls, and
we in fact received anonymous phone calls from

1072
01:51:18.680 --> 01:51:27.079
Justice Department managers and attorneys who believed
that pressure was placed on Janet Reno,

1073
01:51:27.359 --> 01:51:30.920
a biweb hubble, and pressure that
came from the First Lady of the United

1074
01:51:30.920 --> 01:51:38.119
States. Now, we believed that
because the military was President Waco in some

1075
01:51:38.159 --> 01:51:43.279
capacity, that the President may have
made a decision to allow that to happen,

1076
01:51:43.520 --> 01:51:46.560
following some sort of illegal protocol where
he says, this is of such

1077
01:51:46.600 --> 01:51:50.319
a serious nature that need to be
involved, and we asked for those documents

1078
01:51:50.720 --> 01:51:57.279
and asked to see National Security Council
documents and were not provided with any information

1079
01:51:57.359 --> 01:52:02.119
that enabled us to reach a conclusion. It's a serious allegation that the President

1080
01:52:02.199 --> 01:52:11.000
interfered with changed moved up the decision, and we can't just bandy these things

1081
01:52:11.039 --> 01:52:16.720
around unless we have some real evidence. If Combat Applications Group was on the

1082
01:52:16.720 --> 01:52:24.319
ground that day actually pulling triggers,
the origin of that operation would have come

1083
01:52:24.359 --> 01:52:29.359
directly from White House. It would
have come from the President, because Combat

1084
01:52:29.359 --> 01:52:32.039
Applications Group is, for all the
tests purposes, the President's private army.

1085
01:52:33.119 --> 01:52:38.760
It was discussed at the meeting that
the senior levels of the Clinton administration had

1086
01:52:38.880 --> 01:52:42.920
authorized Delta to be deployed to Wicco, Texas, and not just two or

1087
01:52:42.920 --> 01:52:45.319
three people deployed there, but enough
people there to get the job done.

1088
01:52:46.840 --> 01:52:50.760
As we come to an end,
all of us are looking for anything that

1089
01:52:50.880 --> 01:52:59.479
happened in these hearings after eight days
and nights to indicate not that that General

1090
01:52:59.520 --> 01:53:03.319
A Reno had something to do with
this, but now the President, well,

1091
01:53:03.359 --> 01:53:08.600
after we've exhausted that bit, the
only one left that I can think

1092
01:53:08.640 --> 01:53:13.319
of is the butler. Maybe the
butler did it. I am surprised you

1093
01:53:13.399 --> 01:53:25.680
hadn't tried to subpoena a butler.
By now, our disappointment could not have

1094
01:53:25.760 --> 01:53:30.880
been greater as professionals and as humans
who care about the plight of others when

1095
01:53:30.920 --> 01:53:39.199
the investigation was terminated by Congress.
As I count up the deaths here,

1096
01:53:39.319 --> 01:53:45.319
eighty six and then if you want
to make the leap, then Oklahoma City

1097
01:53:45.479 --> 01:53:50.640
has some connection because it was done
on the anniversary of Waco. That's another

1098
01:53:50.680 --> 01:53:55.880
one hundred and sixty, give or
take. So you're talking two hundred and

1099
01:53:55.920 --> 01:54:01.840
forty six lives. And for this
Congress to try to oversee what the hell

1100
01:54:01.880 --> 01:54:10.159
happened and how did it happen,
it just seems to be talking about the

1101
01:54:10.199 --> 01:54:15.039
butler did it. A little capricious, a little frivolous, and that's just

1102
01:54:15.199 --> 01:54:21.119
my opinion. I yield my time
to mister mccombory. Which the struggle we've

1103
01:54:21.119 --> 01:54:25.359
had I was attorney gentleman. The
Freedom of Information Act was passed, and

1104
01:54:25.399 --> 01:54:30.640
the government hated the Freedom of Information
Act. They hated me for pressing for

1105
01:54:30.720 --> 01:54:34.640
it because they don't want to be
questioned about what they do. They don't

1106
01:54:34.640 --> 01:54:38.319
want to have to explain what they
do. And yet, if you want

1107
01:54:38.319 --> 01:54:41.399
to be a free society, if
you want to have justice, if you

1108
01:54:41.399 --> 01:54:45.960
want to avoid a police state,
you better know what your government does.

1109
01:54:46.000 --> 01:54:57.239
You better insist upon a right to
know what your government does. Even though

1110
01:54:57.239 --> 01:55:01.640
you have a twenty million dollar investigation, you don't have twenty million dollar answers.

1111
01:55:02.199 --> 01:55:08.319
There's nothing about Waco I feel good
about. But imagine seeing small children

1112
01:55:10.119 --> 01:55:15.640
disarticulated with bullets and debris and having
to pick up their body, and their

1113
01:55:15.680 --> 01:55:18.520
head comes off in your left hand
and their body comes apart in your right

1114
01:55:18.560 --> 01:55:26.760
hand. I mean that leaves a
horrible, absolutely indelible etched in your brain

1115
01:55:29.039 --> 01:55:41.439
memory of a tragedy. The prosecutors
during our trial tried to prove conspiracy and

1116
01:55:41.520 --> 01:55:45.800
murder, and all eleven defendants were
found by a jury to be not guilty

1117
01:55:45.960 --> 01:55:49.840
of those two charges. And I
think that, to me, is for

1118
01:55:49.920 --> 01:55:58.239
the President and for any media or
anybody in this committee to continue to refer

1119
01:55:59.319 --> 01:56:06.319
to us as utterers. I feel
that's unjust. The government cannot be proud

1120
01:56:06.359 --> 01:56:11.359
about what they did on February the
twenty eighth. They cannot be proud about

1121
01:56:11.359 --> 01:56:15.600
what they did on April the nineteenth, and they certainly can't be happy about

1122
01:56:15.600 --> 01:56:19.520
what this jury said to them today. We found all of the defendants not

1123
01:56:19.640 --> 01:56:26.399
guilty of conspiracy to commit murder and
of murder. In essence, there was

1124
01:56:26.439 --> 01:56:29.760
no way we could say that they
did not use firearms. I think the

1125
01:56:29.840 --> 01:56:35.560
jury totally rejected the scary idea that
came out in final argument. If someone

1126
01:56:35.600 --> 01:56:41.119
who would study a certain religion by
virtue of the way he thinks, would

1127
01:56:41.119 --> 01:56:45.520
be guilty of a conspiracy to murder
federal agents. That I think is one

1128
01:56:45.600 --> 01:56:53.920
clear message that came out of this
trial. What we came to realize too

1129
01:56:54.000 --> 01:56:58.920
late to correct was that we could
not have found them guilty of using firearms

1130
01:56:59.000 --> 01:57:03.399
without having them on them guilty of
either conspiracy to murder or murder. Those

1131
01:57:03.439 --> 01:57:10.840
two charges were tied together. When
the judge looked at the jury's verdict,

1132
01:57:11.279 --> 01:57:15.800
he said that this finding of guilty
to commission of a federal offense is inconsistent.

1133
01:57:15.399 --> 01:57:20.880
I'll throw it out. But then
he changed his mind, and when

1134
01:57:20.960 --> 01:57:26.600
it came to sentencing, he stood
the jury's verdict on his head. He

1135
01:57:26.760 --> 01:57:31.039
said in his sentencing speech that since
they were guilty of using a weapon and

1136
01:57:31.079 --> 01:57:36.079
the commission of a federal offense.
He would find that the federal offense was

1137
01:57:36.199 --> 01:57:43.479
murder and conspiracy to commit murder.
He went further on to say, you

1138
01:57:43.640 --> 01:57:50.520
murdered not only the ATF agents,
but your own co religionist. Federal sentencing

1139
01:57:50.560 --> 01:57:56.039
guidelines allowed Judge Smith to choose the
sentence of between five and forty years.

1140
01:57:56.560 --> 01:58:00.399
He gave all but two defendants the
maximum sentence of years in federal prison.

1141
01:58:02.239 --> 01:58:05.319
I knew what was going to happen. I knew what the agents were going

1142
01:58:05.399 --> 01:58:11.960
to say, what they're going to
blame myself, and I was in therefore.

1143
01:58:13.960 --> 01:58:23.319
But yeah, I was just something
I had to go through. I'm

1144
01:58:23.359 --> 01:58:27.640
a school teacher and it's, you
know, a good opportunity for me to

1145
01:58:27.680 --> 01:58:30.680
get away from the kids and forget
all about them for a while and just

1146
01:58:30.760 --> 01:58:38.439
kind of relax for a while.
Paul Fatter was not at the initial February

1147
01:58:38.439 --> 01:58:42.359
twenty eight shootout with the ATF,
but was charged with aiding and a betting

1148
01:58:42.640 --> 01:58:47.039
and was also given a maximum sentence
of fifteen years. I don't like being

1149
01:58:47.119 --> 01:58:51.439
in prison, you know. I
don't like this situation. It's it's a

1150
01:58:51.479 --> 01:58:58.199
feudal experience. I don't understand it. I don't think it's making me a

1151
01:58:58.239 --> 01:59:03.560
better person or it's but I believe
it's all for a reason. The system

1152
01:59:03.640 --> 01:59:11.479
had every opportunity to be fair and
honest and truthful and treat us properly,

1153
01:59:12.600 --> 01:59:15.960
and they chose not to. They
chose to lie, to deceive, and

1154
01:59:16.119 --> 01:59:23.680
to cover up, to cover their
positions or their retirement or their whatever it

1155
01:59:23.760 --> 01:59:28.439
may be. And that's something they
got to deal with. They got to

1156
01:59:28.479 --> 01:59:31.239
look at theirselves in the mirror every
morning and say that, hey, I

1157
01:59:31.359 --> 01:59:44.359
made decisions that ended up costing a
lot of people their lives. I want

1158
01:59:44.359 --> 01:59:50.520
to say that Branch Davidians are not
anti government, why not anti law enforcement?

1159
01:59:53.680 --> 01:59:59.359
And I'm sorry that they're at full
Hey, Instead, it did and

1160
01:59:59.399 --> 02:00:10.640
they're a lot of a wounded that
we lost eighty five well friends and family

1161
02:00:10.720 --> 02:00:27.800
too, and it was unnecessary.
I hear a lot of people saying that,

1162
02:00:28.479 --> 02:00:31.239
you know that they hope this will
never happen again. What happened to

1163
02:00:31.359 --> 02:00:43.319
us. I believe that what happened
to us was just the beginning. Many

1164
02:00:43.359 --> 02:00:48.359
of us had a heartfelt concern for
individuals that chose to a particular lifestyle that

1165
02:00:48.479 --> 02:00:55.000
was a little bit of an off
brand lifestyle. And who were cavalierly thought

1166
02:00:55.000 --> 02:01:00.560
of as unimportant and thought of as
people who simply committed suicide or simply burned

1167
02:01:00.600 --> 02:01:08.600
themselves up. And that claim being
so widely held by everything is also the

1168
02:01:08.640 --> 02:01:13.079
type of thing that the investigator wants
to get in under and really find out

1169
02:01:13.119 --> 02:01:21.680
if there's another side of the story. They were my life and meant everything

1170
02:01:21.760 --> 02:01:27.359
to mine, and I still do
now. I thank God for the hope.

1171
02:01:27.880 --> 02:01:30.000
But one day, and I hope
it's soon, that I'll be able

1172
02:01:30.039 --> 02:01:34.119
to put my arms around them and
play with them again and take care of

1173
02:01:34.159 --> 02:01:41.439
them, God willing, we cannot
put this government in the seat of God

1174
02:01:42.039 --> 02:01:45.319
and go along with this government and
say, look, you can take life

1175
02:01:45.960 --> 02:01:48.239
anytime you will please, just like
you did right before our very eyes.

1176
02:01:49.079 --> 02:01:51.760
We had a play by play,
just like it was a football game.

1177
02:01:53.479 --> 02:01:56.920
But you can't do this, you
know. I think the media needs to

1178
02:01:56.960 --> 02:01:59.760
be the watchdog for the people.
I mean, that's why it's the first

1179
02:02:00.000 --> 02:02:02.960
amendment, if not second, not
to sixteenth, it's the first amendment.

1180
02:02:03.319 --> 02:02:08.600
Somebody way back when thought it was
very important that the mediaud be the watchdog.

1181
02:02:08.640 --> 02:02:11.640
I mean in this system of checks
and balances, and in this instance

1182
02:02:12.600 --> 02:02:26.439
it was asleep. If we choose
to learn from our mistakes, it is

1183
02:02:26.439 --> 02:02:31.239
from admitting our errors that we come
closer to understanding how we might prevent tragedies

1184
02:02:31.359 --> 02:02:36.800
like these from happening in the future. Those who cannot admit their mistakes,

1185
02:02:39.119 --> 02:02:44.479
well, all we can do is
offer our prayers. Our government is an

1186
02:02:44.479 --> 02:02:50.079
imperfect one compromise of imperfect people.
It can only be as good as we

1187
02:02:50.239 --> 02:02:55.960
choose to make it. We have
come too far to quit or to coast.

1188
02:02:57.000 --> 02:03:01.520
We must continue to make it better. So we must not allow ourselves

1189
02:03:01.560 --> 02:03:09.319
to become bitter, only better.
Perhaps the greatest lesson to be learned is

1190
02:03:09.399 --> 02:03:15.399
often the most difficult to remember until
it's too late, And that is life

1191
02:03:15.439 --> 02:03:20.520
is very precious. It happens in
moments, not seconds, not minutes,

1192
02:03:20.920 --> 02:03:28.359
not hours, but in moments.
And let us forgive, but let us

1193
02:03:28.399 --> 02:03:47.520
never forget as we move from ashes
to understanding. As a result of the

1194
02:03:47.560 --> 02:03:51.600
evidence uncovered by the making of this
documentary, both the US Senate and House

1195
02:03:51.680 --> 02:03:58.399
of Representatives have opened new investigations,
which are expected to result in full congressional

1196
02:03:58.399 --> 02:04:16.920
hearings. This is a long time
I go, though. In addition,

1197
02:04:17.159 --> 02:04:24.119
US Attorney General Janet Reno has appointed
former Senator John Danforth to conduct a full

1198
02:04:24.199 --> 02:04:45.760
and independent investigation to determine the facts
behind the Waco tragedy, all of them.

1199
02:04:45.800 --> 02:04:47.039
All right, that's the end of
it. He's playing music at the

1200
02:04:47.119 --> 02:04:49.479
end, I believe here the rest
of it. Let me just don't check,

1201
02:04:49.800 --> 02:04:57.600
make sure, and I'm off him. I'm pretty sure it's just music

1202
02:04:57.640 --> 02:05:10.760
as a thing. Yeah, let
me see. Yeah, it's solid music

1203
02:05:10.760 --> 02:05:13.439
at the end. Okay, So
there you have it. I don't know

1204
02:05:13.439 --> 02:05:19.199
if I have anything I need to
say after all that pretty emotional throughout that

1205
02:05:20.079 --> 02:05:24.520
I'm not afraid to say it.
I can't stan seeing kids getting hurt.

1206
02:05:26.840 --> 02:05:30.199
All right, Well that's that.
You'll see me again. It's pretty soon

1207
02:05:30.239 --> 02:05:33.800
with the return of Jack Anthony,
a good friend of ours, for the

1208
02:05:33.880 --> 02:05:36.920
Jack Anthony Show that I'll be coming
up in a live stream as soon as

1209
02:05:36.920 --> 02:05:43.319
my daughter goes to bed. Bye
oh yeah, and looks at the bottom.

1210
02:05:43.319 --> 02:05:45.159
If you want to help people out, and you can go to supper

1211
02:05:45.159 --> 02:05:49.600
Fry lc dot com and get the
link by clicking the picture of doctor Bonzo

1212
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to go druxy to the site and
then to keep on couids right there for

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you know what. All right,