1 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,640 Hey, what's going on everybody? I am your host for today of the 2 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:24,239 Adventures and DevOps podcast, and today is super exciting because if you are a 3 00:00:24,359 --> 00:00:30,320 frequent listener of the show, you know that Jonathan and Jillian both have moved 4 00:00:30,359 --> 00:00:34,840 on to higher callings, and you know, at this point, I've just 5 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:39,640 got to say that it can't be me. I mean, like, I'm 6 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:44,240 the only hosts that's here that's stood the test of time. But surely it's 7 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,759 not me. It must be them and not me. But we'll find out, 8 00:00:47,759 --> 00:00:52,840 because today I have a new co host. I have Warren Parade. 9 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,759 You might remember him from episode one forty seven when we were talking about open 10 00:00:56,799 --> 00:01:02,600 source software. He's the CTO of Author and he is now the new co 11 00:01:02,719 --> 00:01:10,760 host joining me on the podcast. Warren, welcome, Oh thank you. 12 00:01:10,799 --> 00:01:15,200 Well. You know, I'm surprised you remember the number, because I for 13 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,719 sure did. I'm not gonna lie. I totally looked it up before the 14 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:26,079 show started. It was actually interesting that you that that one was on open 15 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:30,719 source because I actually just came back from foss Dam UH and Brussels, and 16 00:01:32,239 --> 00:01:36,359 there's a lot of parallels there. I felt like it's like the largest open 17 00:01:36,359 --> 00:01:38,480 source conference in the world. Yeah, how was that? That seemed like 18 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:42,359 it'd be a cool show to go to. You know, I think it 19 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:48,159 definitely. It definitely cemented a lot of the stereotypes that you can imagine about 20 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,280 both like the open source community. Uh. You know, I go to 21 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,680 a lot of conferences because I speak at them, and so like I try 22 00:01:55,719 --> 00:01:57,920 to pick the ones that I feel like I can have the most impact on 23 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:04,280 either sharing my experiences are whatever. Have you given my my role? So 24 00:02:04,359 --> 00:02:09,080 he said, I'm like, I'm the ct of AUTHORESS Security Application Specialist really, 25 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:13,479 so anything that falls in that space. Actually, it was really surprising 26 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,240 when I was there because there wasn't a security track and it's the first year 27 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:22,080 they even had anything related to APIs. So like my room was like totally 28 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,199 packed with people. But it really goes to show you that either it's still 29 00:02:25,319 --> 00:02:30,960 a relatively new area and sometimes I forget that for sure. Yeah, I 30 00:02:30,199 --> 00:02:37,759 think that's pretty much a rule for our industry as a whole, as it 31 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:42,919 is new, you know, if you consider it too, even like airplanes 32 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,800 or trains or boats, Like, we're just getting started here, and I 33 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,360 when I talk with a lot of people who are just starting their careers. 34 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,240 You know, they feel like, oh, it's too late, you know, 35 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:58,319 I've missed the boat, and granted there is a lot to learn, 36 00:02:59,479 --> 00:03:01,639 but it's it's it's definitely not too late. And one of the things I 37 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:07,759 try to emphasize with that is like when I started my career in the nineties, 38 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:15,439 you know, we just didn't know anything, and we've learned a lot 39 00:03:15,599 --> 00:03:21,439 since then, and a lot of that is like foundational knowledge for someone entering 40 00:03:21,439 --> 00:03:23,639 the career. So I kind of consider at this stage in my life one 41 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:28,800 of my roles is to relay that information, you know, and make sure 42 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,560 that people just starting their career don't have to spend thirty years learning the things 43 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:38,240 that I've learned over thirty years that I'm going to distill it, digest it, 44 00:03:38,879 --> 00:03:42,240 relay it to them, and let them build on top of what I've 45 00:03:42,319 --> 00:03:46,840 learned. Yeah. No, I'm totally with you. I think the numbers 46 00:03:46,879 --> 00:03:49,240 rolled up for me and I'm like, oh, wait, Like I remember 47 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:55,680 when I started applying for our positions and seeing high numbers of years of expectations 48 00:03:55,719 --> 00:04:00,240 for experience, like even like five or seven. I'm like, I got 49 00:04:00,319 --> 00:04:02,000 to get there at some point, probably not. And now, like I'm 50 00:04:02,039 --> 00:04:05,400 way past that number, and I'm like, oh, like I'm supposed to 51 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:10,080 know things. But I mean, I think it's a good reminder though, 52 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:15,000 too, because there's this bias, even especially in our industry, where we 53 00:04:15,079 --> 00:04:21,199 think that I think it's experts everywhere believe that the common person knows way more 54 00:04:21,199 --> 00:04:27,360 about the subject, and even within software, there's so many different disciplines that 55 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,040 I'm often talking to people about things that I think a majority of people know 56 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,839 already and they're just like, wait, don't I don't. I have no 57 00:04:34,879 --> 00:04:39,800 idea what you're talking about, Like, all right, that's I totally can't. 58 00:04:39,959 --> 00:04:43,160 Maybe it's that surprising. Yeah, No, I think that's been a 59 00:04:43,199 --> 00:04:46,040 shift in the decades that I've been doing this too. Like whenever I first 60 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:53,079 started, if you said I don't know about that technology or I don't know 61 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,279 how to do that, it was it was a bad thing to say, 62 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,839 and it could be detrimental to say you were expected to know everything. And 63 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:04,879 we've kind of broken that down over the years where it's okay to say I 64 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:08,560 don't know, and and it has to be the vast number of things that 65 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,319 we covered, like you're not going to know everything. Yeah, I think 66 00:05:12,879 --> 00:05:16,519 coming, like actually acknowledging that imposter syndrome is a thing and that it's okay 67 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:21,360 to have has has been a huge shift that's only just happened recently, like 68 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:27,360 even in the history of software engineering. I mean, I think it's permeated 69 00:05:27,399 --> 00:05:31,319 to other knowledge work related paths that they're they're really as you point out, 70 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,759 there's just way too many things that you could ever know. Right, I've 71 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:42,040 too good and stuck because like I keep want to get it into more into 72 00:05:42,079 --> 00:05:45,199 AI and I feel like, you know, that's that's its own can of 73 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:46,639 worms. But every time I look, I'm like, Okay, but if 74 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,000 I learned something there now, it will just totally be different in five minutes. 75 00:05:51,639 --> 00:05:55,759 So maybe I should I should hold off and just not try to get 76 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,800 down that back, right, let it simmer down for a few years, 77 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,079 then check it out. Yeah. Right. And that's the other thing too, 78 00:06:01,199 --> 00:06:04,920 Like some of these things like if you invest time and effort into them 79 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,040 and then a couple of years from now, it's not even a thing, 80 00:06:09,519 --> 00:06:14,240 Like dang, there's three years of my life I'm never getting back. Well, 81 00:06:14,519 --> 00:06:17,079 you know, it totally pays off because I feel like my experience in 82 00:06:17,519 --> 00:06:25,720 software engineering is filled with the situations that I definitely regret, but they all 83 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,319 turn into great stories and experiences. I feel like whereas and that you can 84 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:32,680 pull forward in some way. I mean I had to be careful about that, 85 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,759 like not getting not staying somewhere where I feel like I've learned everything there 86 00:06:36,879 --> 00:06:42,000 is to learn and there's nowhere for me to go and it's not necessarily get 87 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,160 promoted or move up, just like am I using technology or skills that I'm 88 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,600 now trying to focus on or grow? For sure? Yeah? So on 89 00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:57,519 that note, how did you actually get started in this field? You know, 90 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,560 I don't know if I should go forward or backwards here, so maybe 91 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,000 maybe at least I'll put the goalpost. So I'm the CTO of a company 92 00:07:04,079 --> 00:07:09,079 that does authentication and authorization as an API. What does that even mean? 93 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:13,480 I feel like those words are complicated that aren't immediately straightforward, so like user 94 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:20,040 identity and access control specifically for businesses with complicated user roles and resources, multi 95 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:25,480 tenantcy anything in that domain. So it's been a long journey for me to 96 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,759 get there. I moved a lot around in a lot of different industries and 97 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:34,240 locations, so I actually didn't even go to school for software engineering. I 98 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:42,800 went for my undergraduate degree in engineering is electrical and computer and that means I 99 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,680 wanted to build Spice satellites, but that actually didn't work. Yeah, I 100 00:07:46,759 --> 00:07:49,439 know, that was my you know, it was that or go work for 101 00:07:49,839 --> 00:07:56,519 NASA or the equivalent. And interestingly enough, I you know, sort of 102 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,800 got an experience of doing that later. But when I graduated, I couldn't 103 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,079 find a good job. I'm by good, I mean like the year before 104 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,399 I graduated there was a huge crunch sort of similar to what's happening now in 105 00:08:07,639 --> 00:08:15,879 technology, so I wasn't I didn't feel very optimistic about my opportunities when leaving, 106 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:18,519 and so like I didn't get that many and I ended up in healthcare. 107 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:26,040 It in the middle of nowhere in the United States. And let's just 108 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:31,440 say my hobby programming practices of since I was like fourteen years old, I 109 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:37,360 think that's about when I started. We're more sophisticated than what this company had 110 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:43,000 going as far as like software development processes and source control, which they didn't 111 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:46,840 have at all. So that was, you know, quite an initial shock 112 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,720 for me, and I really didn't want to stay there very long. I 113 00:08:52,759 --> 00:08:56,440 think what was interesting about that job too, is that I didn't have experience 114 00:08:56,639 --> 00:09:01,120 in hard software engineering skills, but I did a lot of classes that I 115 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,799 think are still valuable for me today. So like, I don't care if 116 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,039 someone went to a university when I'm hiring them or not, but there is 117 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:13,639 some background that's super useful, like algorithms and structures and understanding what that is, 118 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,440 like if I say hash map or dictionary that sort of comes with some 119 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,519 expectations. I don't care if you know how virtual page file system works, 120 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:26,600 because I still can't figure that out for the life of me. Yeah. 121 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,600 So this again actually wasn't even software. I was doing technical services, which 122 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:37,799 was pretty much doing custom software development for the customers of the company, but 123 00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:43,120 not building the product up. And that was actually really working with customers directly, 124 00:09:43,279 --> 00:09:48,480 our users to help them understand how the technical product worked. Super complicated, 125 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,799 lots of configurability, so much so that customers could put in their own 126 00:09:50,919 --> 00:09:54,320 code into the system, which is sort of ridiculous that you would go to 127 00:09:54,399 --> 00:10:01,080 production and make changes there directly in the operating system level, and like that 128 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,879 scared me that anyone would do that, but that that was the thing. 129 00:10:05,639 --> 00:10:07,879 So that also wasn't wasn't pure software, and that was great because I feel 130 00:10:07,919 --> 00:10:11,200 like I got experience with Okay, what we're doing has an impact to a 131 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,960 user somewhere, like there has to be a reason for doing this. Yeah. 132 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:24,320 I think healthcare is one of those interesting places to work in technology because 133 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:30,039 you have like all of these different constraints. You know, you have just 134 00:10:30,159 --> 00:10:35,080 like the whole world of medicine is huge, but then you have it's implemented 135 00:10:35,159 --> 00:10:39,440 differently in different regions, and then you have like the legal aspect of it 136 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:43,279 with hipper requirements and stuff. One of the jobs I had was it was 137 00:10:43,399 --> 00:10:48,480 an This was before the term SRE was around, but it was kind of 138 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:56,879 an SR type role where we worked directly with the staff and trauma centers and 139 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,039 so whenever they would call us and say, hey, this thing's broken, 140 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:05,879 right, they had somebody in the emergency room on the table that they couldn't 141 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:09,799 give medical care to because our stuff was broken. And so you were talking 142 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,000 with you know, doctors and nurses, and there were there were many occasions 143 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,120 where you're just tell them, hey, look, just put me on speakerphone, 144 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,480 go do what you gotta do, and I'll shout if I need anything, 145 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:24,039 and I wish I wish I sort of had that experience, because that 146 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:28,000 seems like one of those that you know, falls in the category of I'm 147 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,039 glad I did it in my past, but it's not my day job anymore, 148 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:37,919 right. I Actually I actually worked in claims and like billing primarily, 149 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,679 so I got to deal with all the problems of configuration in this system and 150 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,559 also how to deal with those contracts with third party integrations to insurance companies or 151 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:52,480 clearinghouses. Yeah, insurance companies are just a joy to work with at every 152 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,679 level, right. I mean, this is like after a standards body came 153 00:11:56,759 --> 00:12:01,960 together and said we need things like hl SAT then to perfectly identify programmatically how 154 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:07,360 to communicate, and then the hospital organizations would go out and sign contracts with 155 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,759 these insurance companies that violate the data that's allowed to be put in the programmatic 156 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:18,320 communication and the interface and their APIs or EEDI interfaces depending on where you're from, 157 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,440 and like that was really a struggle to communicate where like, hey, 158 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:26,480 you know, our software doesn't do this because it's against the spec like this 159 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,399 field, it takes a Booleian true or false, and you can't put a 160 00:12:31,519 --> 00:12:39,120 three in there, and part of it was to protect the patients, like 161 00:12:39,159 --> 00:12:43,720 what information should be allowed to be sent to the insurance company that wasn't relevant 162 00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:50,480 for paying out whatever diagnostic or surgery was assigned in that claim. So I 163 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,480 did remember one time, and this is where I'm glad, I'm not I 164 00:12:54,840 --> 00:13:00,480 never was in the sor repath directly that one of the data centers that one 165 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:07,320 of the hospitals that I was supporting had an incident and their like main systems 166 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,720 were all offline like totally, which you know, same to do your case, 167 00:13:11,159 --> 00:13:18,200 and what they had us do was remote into the systems, not using 168 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:22,240 SSH that would be cool, but using some other technologies that I don't want 169 00:13:22,279 --> 00:13:24,919 to name, and like three different levels, like we had to first we 170 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,159 got the beeper go off, you had to get on call giant phone room 171 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:33,879 where then you got a sign credentials in order of access. Then you could 172 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:37,879 get in and then SSH to another system and then to another system to even 173 00:13:37,879 --> 00:13:45,440 get into production to run a script basically to verify that the database was integrity 174 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:52,919 was still you know, okay. I didn't like that. I think one 175 00:13:52,919 --> 00:13:56,759 of the big takeaways for me from working at that job was just putting things 176 00:13:56,879 --> 00:14:01,759 into perspective, you know, especially since I still deal with production systems a 177 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:07,879 lot in incident management. You know, after that, my approach is, 178 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,320 oh, we've got an outage, Okay, how many people are going to 179 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:13,759 die? Zero? Okay, Well, let's just simmer down a notch here 180 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,399 then, and let's just make conscious focused decisions here because everyone's going to be 181 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:22,200 okay. Yeah, No, I totally get that. I think this is 182 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:28,600 one of the most frequent advice that I end up giving inexperienced like new engineers 183 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,799 the field is really just take a look at that risk profile here of what's 184 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:37,080 going on, Like I need help immediately. I'm like, do you? 185 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:43,360 I mean, your production deployment isn't working, but the site is working at 186 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:48,080 this moment, and it also doesn't serve critical usage, and also you don't 187 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,360 have an ongoing marketing campaign and maybe you have five users, right. I 188 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,240 think I saw an XKCD on this. I don't remember if it's that or 189 00:14:56,279 --> 00:15:00,759 someone else, and there was like, is this is like posts like my 190 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:05,879 SQL or postcress or something. Is my database configuration will work for having one 191 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:11,720 hundred million concurrent users and the responses how many current users do you have oh 192 00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:18,000 we have five? Oh yeah then yes, yeah, right, I mean, 193 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,480 because there's a lot of truth to that. It's just like you you 194 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:24,200 don't need that scale at all. I was actually talking to someone today and 195 00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:28,519 they were doing they were almost exact same question, but they're like, we 196 00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:31,679 don't want to use an identity provider that's proven hardened or whatever. And I'm 197 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,080 like that's okay. They're like, oh yeah, it doesn't scale for us. 198 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,039 And I'm like, how many use it? Like ten thousand users? 199 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:43,000 And I'm like, okay, you know that's just like such a small number, 200 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,720 right, not even here. I'll let you borrow my raspberry pie that 201 00:15:46,879 --> 00:15:52,519 work, I know. Right. The thing that scared me is the difference 202 00:15:52,559 --> 00:15:58,480 between it being like a commercial application for personal use and when that goes to 203 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:02,360 a business. Because as soon as you bring in business as if people are 204 00:16:02,399 --> 00:16:03,960 asking these questions, I start to get concerned, like, Okay, what 205 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,799 is the data privacy that you're thinking about? You know, what is your 206 00:16:07,879 --> 00:16:12,399 data redundancy or disaster recovery situation? Because if you're worried about spending ten bucks 207 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,600 a month on running your app, I feel like there's a promise here to 208 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:22,480 your customers. That's more than just that could go down and having a backup 209 00:16:22,559 --> 00:16:26,159 strategy just it's like number one for me. If you're in the business space 210 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,960 over you know, who cares if you lose some music files from your Spotify 211 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:36,799 account? Right? And I think that ties into something that is very specific 212 00:16:36,879 --> 00:16:40,279 to devlops but also applies to other areas of technology too, is like it's 213 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:45,600 not always just about the technology, Like you have to understand the business as 214 00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:52,679 well and understand like what your promise to the customers is and how it impacts 215 00:16:52,799 --> 00:16:57,960 their life and even like in in some cases, you know, you have 216 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:02,080 to understand the finance aspect of it too, because we've build all of this 217 00:17:02,279 --> 00:17:07,279 infrastructure and now the finance team doesn't really know what to ask. But if 218 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:11,200 you go to them and say, hey, some of this infrastructure is op 219 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,400 X and some of it is CAPEX, and if you work with us categorize 220 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,480 it correctly, it can result in a huge amount of tax savings for the 221 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:23,079 company. And so you get into all of this non technical aspects of a 222 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,519 technical business. I love that. I love that you brought that up because 223 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:33,440 I think that understanding even the difference between those two is such a foreign concept 224 00:17:33,519 --> 00:17:37,400 too. And sure, in general, I think we get lots of customers 225 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,759 that are like, oh, it costs ten thousand bucks a month for your 226 00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:44,480 service. That's too much. I'm like, let me explain to you, 227 00:17:44,759 --> 00:17:48,720 you know, the savings here. Also, you probably have capital expenditures that 228 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:53,119 you're currently paying in and saving those resources that are depreciating over time, versus 229 00:17:53,519 --> 00:17:59,240 paying a SaaS provider to you know, deliver some of that. And if 230 00:17:59,279 --> 00:18:02,519 I look at their use and it's like peanuts, like a couple bucks a 231 00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:06,039 month, it's like you're literally wasting more time trying to make a decision on 232 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,680 which statas provider to use for something than you are to pick a random one 233 00:18:10,079 --> 00:18:15,880 and paying the cost to transition later. It's really sad, honestly how often 234 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:21,640 I have that conversation. Yeah, you have to you have to know. 235 00:18:22,279 --> 00:18:30,039 And I think this just comes from experience of knowing when to dig into the 236 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,920 weeds and when to take a step back and see are we even in the 237 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:37,519 right part of the forest here. Yeah, No, it's interesting because actually 238 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,400 you know to Can you continue on my career past story. I worked at 239 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:48,279 a large global manufacturing company that wrote their own software and they actually did chargebacks 240 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:55,720 really well and expose the cloud costs eventually to the individual team so that they 241 00:18:55,759 --> 00:19:00,559 could take ownership over how much they were spending on some things. And you 242 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,599 know, I think that's a great a great first level, like giving that 243 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,160 exposure rather than locking it behind another team or even a different part of the 244 00:19:08,279 --> 00:19:14,279 organization like one quote unquote finance, because you know, that was great to 245 00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:15,319 see, Oh yeah, you know, if we' spin up this infrastructure, 246 00:19:15,319 --> 00:19:21,640 it's going to cost us two thousand dollars more a month. But then it's 247 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:25,920 great to also hear that other teams are like, well, well, whoops, 248 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,279 we just spent two hundred thousand on the others sasas provider. I think 249 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,720 I think I read it it was like in the ten day of like Coinbase 250 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:37,680 or something that they had spend sixty five million dollars last year or two years 251 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:45,000 ago on data dog or something like that. That's actually really easy to do 252 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,920 with data Dog. I mean that's always been my concern. I mean, 253 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,599 they're not the product for us, given where like the sort of data that 254 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,440 we want to collect and the sensitivity of that data. But it's also really 255 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,319 amazing that there aren't any product that really fit the space for us. I 256 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,759 wish someone would come to us and be like, you know for metric usage, 257 00:20:04,839 --> 00:20:07,880 you know, here's a perfect thing, but you know, we still 258 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,799 haven't found that. Actually, So we actually because in my full time job, 259 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:18,680 I'm a staff engineer and the DevOps team for Polygon, and we actually 260 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,559 just rolled out a product called cloud zero that has been super cool. It 261 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:30,079 does, it collects the it connects to whatever billing APIs for different providers that 262 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,799 you use, pulls that in and then gives you insights on it, and 263 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:41,319 it's really really insightful. Like the very first day, it's like, hey, 264 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,000 here's a bunch of net gateways. You're using an AWS, I don't 265 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,039 have any traffic. You can save you know, five thousand dollars a month 266 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,480 just by turning these off or and it's like daily emails. It's like, 267 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:59,279 hey, over the last twenty four hours, the spending on this GCP product 268 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,480 or GCP project went up one hundred and twenty five percent. You're like, 269 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:07,279 wow, that's a jump. And so that's that's been really cool just to 270 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:11,400 manage those those kinds of things, and it's been very I'm not trying to 271 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,759 plug Cloud zero or turns into or anything. We just had good experience with 272 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:22,920 it because they've just they've brought up some stuff that we would have not seen, 273 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:27,039 you know, very easily, and the integration was that was super easy. 274 00:21:27,759 --> 00:21:30,920 I mean, I think I think that's the truth is like those sort 275 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,160 of tools have like significantly evolved recently. I think at the time, which 276 00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:41,079 was almost eight years ago now, we were using like I think it's called 277 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,559 cloud and area or something like that, and it was it was not it 278 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,839 was not particularly good at the time, but yeah, being able to see 279 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:55,640 those trends in not an amateurized cost way was was helpful and actually driving alerts 280 00:21:55,759 --> 00:22:02,559 and whatnot, which at the time AWS didn't really support. AWS doesn't really 281 00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:06,160 have motivation to support it. Well, you know, I think that's sort 282 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:10,559 of the sad story of SaaS products is I mean really everything in general, 283 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,319 that once you find your core customer, if they're not going to pay marginally 284 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,880 more money for your same product, even if you make it better in some 285 00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:22,440 way, and that's just like the law, like I pretend that doesn't exist, 286 00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:26,039 Like I want to happily live the rest of my life believing that if 287 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:30,759 you make it better, people will appreciate that there's a brand impact for us. 288 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,319 Like a very common conversation I have with my CEO is about how well 289 00:22:36,519 --> 00:22:41,960 the quality of whatever we're doing before we start going down another path, because 290 00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:47,319 I think it does really reflect well users bringing in more customers, et cetera, 291 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:52,119 rather than secretly complaining about it behind closed doors. Yeah, I would 292 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:57,839 agree with that because I you know, you obviously, with a good internet 293 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:03,279 based marketing campaig, you can reach a huge audience. But there's something to 294 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:11,440 be said for just delivering a great product and having satisfied customers, and then 295 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,279 when they go to their next job, they're like, Hey, I used 296 00:23:14,319 --> 00:23:18,839 this before and really liked it, And I think there's it may not have 297 00:23:19,079 --> 00:23:26,079 as big of an impact as a funny marketing campaign or whatever, but I 298 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,240 just think there's something professional about that. Well, it's interesting you say that, 299 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:36,720 because I'm not convinced that in the business space that even viral marketing campaigns 300 00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:41,519 have any real value there for sure, if we're talking about personal products, 301 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,200 like right, yeah, definitely, But there's a whole There was a whole 302 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:53,559 initiative by the search providers AD marketplaces quite a few years ago that tried to 303 00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:59,480 actually figure out whether or not the traffic that was being sent to your website 304 00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:03,279 or app actually converted for you. Right, obviously that's a big importance. 305 00:24:03,519 --> 00:24:07,799 But if it didn't convert, you almost got dinged because you basically lied about 306 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:11,200 your advertisement, right, you know, traffic when to you user didn't get 307 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:17,279 what they wanted. So I think it's I think, you know, originally 308 00:24:17,319 --> 00:24:19,599 the original version of this is like sex cells, and I think the truth 309 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,559 is, well, no, sex just makes people click the link. But 310 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,200 after that then they then they drop off because you know, it's not actually 311 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,480 what they wanted. And so at least for our content that we put in, 312 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:33,440 like our knowledge base or our blog, it's like it's got to be 313 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,480 super relevant because while there's lots of things that we can say that are really 314 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:41,480 interesting from a technology engineering blog sort of way, those don't really help get 315 00:24:41,519 --> 00:24:45,079 customers in the door brand. I mean, Brandon Winness is one thing, 316 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,920 right, you know, you must your brand all you want, but that's 317 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,640 not going to really result in direct sales, but it will result in this 318 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:59,119 concept known as oh did I forget the name. It's like positive reinforcement. 319 00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:03,400 Yeah, yeah, sort of along the lines of like someone has to hear 320 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,839 your name five times before they ever recognize your company name. Oh, that's 321 00:25:10,079 --> 00:25:14,039 a high number. I didn't want to hear that. Don't don't quote me 322 00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:18,119 on that number. There's a rule that marketing teams use that people have to 323 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:23,400 see your ad or whatever a certain number of times before they start to recognize 324 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,759 your company name. But I don't remember if the number is actually five or 325 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,400 what the value is. I mean, I'm sure the unfortunate truth is it's 326 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,319 more than you'd like it to pay, right, right, that's the takeaway 327 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:45,519 there for sure. So looking back over your career, what are some of 328 00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:52,480 the things that you some of the career development decisions you made that when you 329 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:57,839 look back, you're like, ah, that was just pure brilliance. Well, 330 00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:03,119 I don't know I have an answer to that's question, or like, 331 00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:08,880 Okay, that wasn't completely dumb. Okay, let's set the bar a little 332 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:15,359 bit lower there. Yeah. I think I made a couple of realizations while 333 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,240 I was working on different things. So one of them was like, the 334 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:22,720 first DevOps related thing I had ever done, which was not called DevOps at 335 00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:29,559 the time, was helping the organization I was in to replace the need of 336 00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:37,759 a different organization, which was called Release Engineering, and the third organization that 337 00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:44,680 wanted to help us do that told us the solution was Puppet. And if 338 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,720 you don't know what Puppet is, it's a convention based Ruby set proprietary packages 339 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,079 really, which is just the most ridiculous thing that you install agents on all 340 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,279 of your machines to deploy and upgrade the software. The thing is is that 341 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,079 you pretty much to do the equivalent of writing your own terrorform provider for your 342 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:07,519 own software in order to deploy it. There wasn't anything common, really, 343 00:27:07,599 --> 00:27:11,839 and what was common didn't really work out of the box. And like you 344 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:17,319 will, I was the only one left on this project by the end, 345 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,240 from three teams that hadn't been swapped out in some way, like twelve people 346 00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:26,279 left it over the time I was trying to get this done. But the 347 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:33,160 point that I bring this up is that repeatedly it was said, usually by 348 00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:36,359 me, oh, if we wanted to do it that way, maybe we 349 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:42,759 shouldn't be using Puppet. And at the time I was literally I was so 350 00:27:44,039 --> 00:27:48,279 under leveled. I was literally the lowest level that an engineer could have at 351 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:51,640 this company at the time, which its own sort of travesty, which should 352 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:53,920 teach you something that your ability doesn't really mean anything when it comes to the 353 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:57,920 level that you put decide if I had been a higher level, I would 354 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:03,960 have really after the fact that saying those words to myself or even out loud, 355 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,000 is an indication that you should do something about it. And I mean, 356 00:28:10,039 --> 00:28:15,000 in this case, if I left the company, But that's something I 357 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,839 created. This rule. I mean, I call it the rule of three 358 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,079 really, but like if I hear the same problem in my vicinity three times, 359 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:23,920 then I know that it's on me to solve it. That no one 360 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:29,680 else is going to come up and just magically resolve this issue. And I 361 00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:33,400 mean it's not like a hard and fast rule or anything like that, but 362 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,319 realistically, no one else may be privy to it as much. Right, 363 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,039 Like I may have three different sources that are all coming to me or talking 364 00:28:41,079 --> 00:28:45,640 about it in my vicinity. So I usually watch out for those things because 365 00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:48,519 they help a lot. So like this was one I should have realized, 366 00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:52,319 you know, after the tenth time I said, maybe we shouldn't be us 367 00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:55,559 puppet like, we should have picked a different one. The sad truth is 368 00:28:55,920 --> 00:29:00,920 I think that company still has my like the system now I had helped build 369 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:07,359 there to integrate with Puppet being run by like out of the three organizations that 370 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,920 were set up to manage this infrastructure. Basically there's like a team of two 371 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:17,440 or three people now that are handling like all three components, which is just 372 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:21,799 ridiculous really when you think about it, because this is the wrong technology no 373 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,240 matter how you look at it. And they don't have the skills to build 374 00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:30,880 to even manage the rappers or abstractions that were built to manage this, and 375 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,799 they don't have the experience or understanding or knowledge to do it either, So 376 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:41,160 it's really really unfair. But the biggest lesson there, I think is don't 377 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:47,599 use Windows. Yeah, I mean, so this is a manufacturing company. 378 00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:52,440 At the time, there was four manufacturing plants all over the world, and 379 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:57,279 they had a monolith. There was something like one hundred and twenty Windows Services, 380 00:29:57,559 --> 00:30:03,680 which amounts to like it was like eleven hundred c sharp projects that were 381 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,119 being built and managed and deployed in a monolithic fashion. So like they had 382 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,920 a real need for strategy strategic change of how they were doing deployments, which 383 00:30:14,079 --> 00:30:15,400 and I think this is a good story if you wanted to make a new 384 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,960 service, which like this is still in the days of say, like the 385 00:30:19,079 --> 00:30:23,759 term micro service didn't even exist yet. You had to contact this second organization 386 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:27,640 and say, I want a new micro service. Except you could only do 387 00:30:27,799 --> 00:30:36,039 that. You needed a three week lead time for them to create the infrastructure 388 00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:41,480 for your service. And given when you had to do that and the lead 389 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,319 time it would take for you to actually release your new thing, you could 390 00:30:44,359 --> 00:30:47,000 only do it once every five weeks, and it was one day of the 391 00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:48,440 week that you could do this, so literally every once every five weeks. 392 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,160 I'm like, oh, there's that. Like I couldn't believe this when I 393 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,960 figured it out. It was like they have a process, and we have 394 00:30:55,079 --> 00:31:00,359 a process and together that eliminates every possible day with it a one plus period 395 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:06,319 except for this one specific day because we had code freeze and you had and 396 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,799 you had to introduce the service and then have a handoff and then other nonsense. 397 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:12,279 I mean, that's why we were going to puppet in the first place, 398 00:31:12,319 --> 00:31:18,200 which was supposed to be the revolution never really made it to be right, 399 00:31:18,319 --> 00:31:21,480 it was going to automate everything for you. Oh yeah, for sure. 400 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,400 The claim to fame there, like the interface I provided for other engineers, 401 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:33,039 which I thought was absolutely fantastic. Was a single file that could merge 402 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:37,599 in lots of different version changes from individual parts of the monoliths changing at any 403 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:42,960 time, And so each line of the file was a because the new organization 404 00:31:44,119 --> 00:31:48,519 said that ivy was the way to go, which is a Java resolution sort 405 00:31:48,519 --> 00:31:51,839 of package. I mean, it's not even a package manager. It's a 406 00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:57,839 JAR dependency manager, which is a sort of own atrocious thing. This was 407 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:04,200 a HTML file well that had service and version as h al attributes. And 408 00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:07,440 to make it worse, we get every other line was a comment that said, 409 00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:14,960 do not remove this comment because because if you're not aware of this when 410 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,160 you make a change and get, if there is no change on the line 411 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,440 above or below, then you can merge very easily. But if there is 412 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,640 a change on the preceding or following line, then there's going to be a 413 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,440 merged complex so unnecessary line. So yeah, I mean there was a comment 414 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,319 between each one of these that said, you know, do not remove this. 415 00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:35,920 But I thought this was a great interface, and for sure, you 416 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,519 know, I would never never do it that way ever again, but it 417 00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:43,799 was the right thing at the time, for sure. Yeah, And that's 418 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:47,799 one of those things where, like you you know, it's not the permanent 419 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:55,119 solution, but it's a foundational step in building a permanent solution. I mean, 420 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,319 I wish someone had said those wise words to me at that moment, 421 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,839 because it is certainly the belief that I had that this would be the only 422 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,039 thing that was ever necessary for the rest of the life of this company. 423 00:33:06,279 --> 00:33:07,720 I mean, I guess the fact is still running is some truth in there, 424 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,359 no, But I think that is a good point worth elaborating. Is 425 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:22,440 like everything we do is, you know, without trying to sound like philosophical, 426 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:30,519 everything we do is temporary, but just meaning that technology continues to grow 427 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:37,599 every day, and so whatever we do today is really just a stepping stone 428 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,480 to whatever is beyond that. And if we just like do like a really 429 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:46,440 high level history lesson you know, we had servers in closets at the office, 430 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:50,680 and then we had data centers or we would go wrap our servers, 431 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:52,640 and then we figured out how to run virtual machines on the servers, and 432 00:33:52,759 --> 00:33:59,440 then we got you know, cloud providers like AWS where you could run virtual 433 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,480 machines, and then containers and and so like all of those were just building 434 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:09,119 on top of the lessons learned from the previous decisions. I mean, I 435 00:34:09,159 --> 00:34:14,639 think that's an interesting point. I think it was like, not too long 436 00:34:14,679 --> 00:34:20,320 ago, I was reading a paper that suggested the persistent media storage that we 437 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:27,239 had over time was becoming more ephemeral, and like the replacement speed of things 438 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:32,239 like the time between SETE cassettes and I don't know what else CDs and then 439 00:34:32,519 --> 00:34:37,920 VHS tapes and DVDs to Blu ray to you know, USB sticks slash drive 440 00:34:39,079 --> 00:34:45,719 was getting shorter over time. Ah, And it's interesting like our is our 441 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:51,239 technology that we're building now more ephemeral, transient than what we had in the 442 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,199 past. And I think what really missed out in this article was thinking about 443 00:34:54,400 --> 00:35:01,519 the lack of stability of volatility of the previous generation. I mean, the 444 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:09,719 I'm gonna get this wrong. The US launched deep space probe that contains the 445 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:17,280 gold DVDs with is this Voyager? I know, I don't want to I 446 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,440 could believe it's called Voyager, you know, I am not. I am 447 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,400 not the exit export name recognition here. But yeah, right, like we 448 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,480 put it on gold discs, right, would we still like, I mean, 449 00:35:29,039 --> 00:35:32,440 I have no idea is that better? Than you know, some other 450 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,920 less ephemeral flash system that we have now, Like, would we still use 451 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,039 that same strategy? I mean probably not. I'm sure someone dream up it's 452 00:35:39,119 --> 00:35:44,800 like some sort of antimony composite or otherwise, but it's still like is it 453 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,199 metal with like physical embeddings in it? I don't know, So I thought 454 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,079 this was interesting. I would just product tape a USB stick onto the satellite. 455 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:57,800 I mean, I think the realistic is like you just put fifty USB 456 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,199 sticks in the satellite, like its all as like one of them needs to 457 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,599 survive. But then you like you figure out like Hoffman coding and error correction 458 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,280 and so like it's okay if like half of each one of them survives because 459 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:13,880 you can put the data back together. Just load them all with a multi 460 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:19,559 petabyte ZIP file bomb just for laughs. Some aliens find it and it just 461 00:36:19,639 --> 00:36:22,320 blows up their computers. Yeah. Well, I mean it's like running commands 462 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,360 is always weird, I guess, right, because you have to know what 463 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,599 the language is in order to even execute that thing. Otherwise it's just you 464 00:36:29,679 --> 00:36:34,199 know, nonsensical. But I think that that's really that's really the rick roll, 465 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:39,400 right, like just just put literal nonsense on the disc and set that 466 00:36:39,639 --> 00:36:50,679 up, you know, a society. Yeah, I remember this an outage 467 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:57,480 I was on many years ago, and it was storage related where a vast 468 00:36:57,559 --> 00:37:02,360 majority of our production systems just had no data. And so we're on this 469 00:37:02,519 --> 00:37:07,920 call troubleshooting it for hours, and I get the storage team on the call, 470 00:37:07,079 --> 00:37:12,679 you know, and they're like, yeah, well we had some disc 471 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,800 failures and so we swapped out the disc and like, okay, well that 472 00:37:16,119 --> 00:37:21,880 seems reasonable, and how's the rebuilding going. Yeah, the rebuilding seems to 473 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,719 be stuck. Okay, And we talked this out over a course of a 474 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:32,400 couple of hours and found out that nearly every day they would come in and 475 00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:37,800 a disc would fail, and so they would swap out the disc. But 476 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:45,000 then after a week or so, in the twenty four hours between the failures, 477 00:37:45,079 --> 00:37:49,880 that wasn't enough time to rebuild the disc. But then they would come 478 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,079 in and swap out another disc. So after a week or so they'd swapped 479 00:37:53,079 --> 00:38:00,360 out enough discs, we're in this storage array where none of the dis had 480 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:06,480 enough information to do it, so they lost everything. Wow. I mean 481 00:38:06,599 --> 00:38:14,320 I wow, that's you know, and then you go back to okay, 482 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,079 well, let's let's restore from tape. When's the last time you've verified your 483 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:23,960 tape backups? Yeah, and you get crickets like all right, well we're 484 00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:30,000 going. I mean it's like this is like one on one running fire drills 485 00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:34,360 on your that's the recovery process. Like, yeah, forget verification, Like 486 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,280 did you even like you literally need to load the date in bload the data 487 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:42,599 and be like yeah, we're switching over to it for real. Otherwise you 488 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,599 might as well not happen. Yeah, And I think that's in my experience, 489 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:51,880 that's been a hard thing to prioritize. You know, you just essentially 490 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,199 have to say, look, this is what we're doing. You may not 491 00:38:54,519 --> 00:38:59,239 like it, but there will be a day in our future where you are 492 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,800 happy that we spent this time because you learned so much in trying to do 493 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:07,400 that and you recognize all of the things that you thought you had covered that 494 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:10,840 you don't have covered. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean I 495 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:16,280 think that's one of the areas that's really undersold by the cloud. Like so 496 00:39:16,519 --> 00:39:20,679 often I used to do before my current thing, I was doing some fractional 497 00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:27,960 engineering CTO advising consulting, and it's too expensive for us to move to the 498 00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:31,880 cloud because we looked at our current infrastructure that was on some on prem data 499 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:37,760 center or delegated and we just calculated the exact number that it would be if 500 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:44,360 we tried to run those exact things in AWS. And the ridiculous part is 501 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:50,880 like they're not accounting for the actual value add of not having your tape backups, 502 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:57,039 you know, right array failure issues, because that is like if you 503 00:39:57,159 --> 00:40:01,280 care about that, and you probably should actually care about that, it's non 504 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:08,840 trivial to have that working correctly for sure. Yeah, that was whenever I 505 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,800 got out of high school, I joined the Navy and became a nuclear engineer. 506 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,639 And one of the things that they did there was they just really drilled 507 00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:22,159 home the whole disaster recovery thing. You know, you would be operating the 508 00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:28,559 power plant at two am, and you know, some master chief who was 509 00:40:28,639 --> 00:40:30,320 up and couldn't sleep, he'd go walk down into the power plant and just 510 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,599 turned something off just to watch everyone respond, you know, and it really 511 00:40:35,679 --> 00:40:43,239 reinforced the disaster recovery drills so that whenever something did happen unintentionally, just those 512 00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,920 skills we were just muscle memory at that point. Yeah, that really Also 513 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:53,519 it seems like an exercise and root cause analysis, right, because which is 514 00:40:53,679 --> 00:41:01,320 not practiced enough realistically. I mean, there's a lot of I don't know. 515 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,639 I think there's a lot of companies out there that talk about post mortems 516 00:41:05,679 --> 00:41:07,519 and one on, but having been in quite a few in my day, 517 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:14,400 I don't usually see them run in a way that actually has meaningful outcome there, 518 00:41:14,639 --> 00:41:20,280 like actually resulting in better processes or practices in general. I think the 519 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,840 number one thing that comes out as well, we should have better tests, 520 00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:29,079 right, we should have more tests. That's the solution, more tests, 521 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:34,559 And that's usually what happened, more tests, usually by adding some sort of 522 00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:40,239 rule to your CICD platform that ensured that your code coverage was at above eighty 523 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:45,519 percent, which is always just great whenever you delete code and it goes down 524 00:41:46,199 --> 00:41:50,880 because of course you deleted code with tests on it, because that's usually the 525 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:58,480 code that's tested the most worthless not necessary. So and I'm just like, 526 00:41:58,679 --> 00:42:02,840 I don't like I have stopped working contributing to certain open source projects when that 527 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,920 happens. I'm just like, I don't know what to do here, Like 528 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,880 I don't know enough about this service or SDK library to add tests somewhere else 529 00:42:12,639 --> 00:42:15,360 because obviously they're not there for a reason. It was deemed too difficult to 530 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,360 add them. And now you're asking someone who doesn't know what's going on here 531 00:42:20,559 --> 00:42:23,199 to fix a bug by deleting code and you can't. You can't do it, 532 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:29,400 yeah, for sure. And every test carries an equal amount of technical 533 00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:35,079 debt with it because the test has to be it has to be actively maintained 534 00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:39,559 and evaluate like is this test still testing the right thing? And when it 535 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:44,599 fails, did it fail for the right reasons? Yeah? Yeah, no, 536 00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,519 for sure, for sure. And I think there's a whole, this 537 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:52,519 whole h extra hours of uh content here that may not be directly related to 538 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:58,360 DevOps that you go on with. I mean I worked with a lot of 539 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:04,320 originally QA but eventually QUI and just selfware engineering teams trying to turn it all 540 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,800 into the DevOps mindset, because that was a new term, I guess during 541 00:43:08,119 --> 00:43:14,360 my tenure at different companies, and not one that was always so practiced readily, 542 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:21,199 for sure. So what were some of the things in your career If 543 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,199 for someone who's just getting started or part way through their career, what were 544 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:30,599 some of the things that you did that didn't seem to have any value or 545 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:35,840 were perhaps negative to your career, Oh for sure. The one, My 546 00:43:36,039 --> 00:43:43,599 favorite one is telling other people how their solution won't work. Yeah, that's 547 00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,360 rare, my favorite. I thought, you know, I was doing the 548 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:51,000 right thing early on. Hey there's this thing that doesn't work. I mean 549 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,519 I not so long ago. I actually did a presentation about how the human 550 00:43:55,599 --> 00:44:04,800 psychology doesn't respond togative to terrence or even really any sort of constructive feedback very 551 00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:09,079 effectively. I mean, there's a whole psychological safety aspect and desire to change 552 00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:15,079 of which most people you know don't fit there. Most people care more about 553 00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,039 being told that they're right or they're doing a good job, which says a 554 00:44:20,119 --> 00:44:24,119 lot for positive reinforcement that you can get people to do the right thing, 555 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:29,400 to be motivated even if you congratulate them, if you tell them how they're 556 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,400 doing good job, give them rewards. Just don't put this the carrot in 557 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:38,239 front of them too often or explicitly, because it will. It can derail 558 00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:44,239 where people get personal satisfaction and motivation from. But it helps way more than 559 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:51,519 anything else. Like, I think there's this common misconception that's widely acknowledged that 560 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,199 performance improvement plans work in some way. I mean, it's a great example, 561 00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,079 right, you know, hey, we're going to fire you if you 562 00:44:59,159 --> 00:45:04,800 don't get your act to get other never really fix anyone's career specistically, it 563 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,760 did help, right, you know, those were the words that someone needed 564 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,559 to hear. Yeah, yeah, but you know that was a big one. 565 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,079 I think another one for me, and I was lucky that I had 566 00:45:14,119 --> 00:45:17,719 a couple of mentors that really shared this with me specifically, is that it 567 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:22,199 doesn't matter how good of a job you do. Realistically, no one cares. 568 00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,880 They care about the outcomes that are important for them, and so figuring 569 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,480 out what actually is important for them. And it's not like some them, 570 00:45:30,559 --> 00:45:35,920 which is some vacuous, morphous blob somewhere. It's you know, put points 571 00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:40,559 to your finger at whoever is responsible for giving you a promotion or who I 572 00:45:40,639 --> 00:45:45,000 mean, realistically, whoever cares about your future development, which you should know 573 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,840 who that is and how they're going to help you get to the next level, 574 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,039 and ask what's important for them today, right now in the future. 575 00:45:53,519 --> 00:45:58,519 And that's the answer, Like everything else, totally irrelevant. I mean, 576 00:45:58,679 --> 00:46:00,920 do it makes you happy? Right? Like you shouldn't go to your job 577 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,320 and be unhappy, so you know, find a way to work that in, 578 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,599 but don't for one moment believe that doing a good job. And this 579 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,400 was like some lie that I had told myself, and I remember thinking it 580 00:46:12,519 --> 00:46:15,480 so many times. I know there are these things called politics. I'm not 581 00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:19,440 going to get involved. All I care about like I will get promoted by 582 00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:22,679 doing the best work I possibly can. And I just stop using the word 583 00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:24,599 politics because it doesn't like it doesn't really land. It didn't land for me, 584 00:46:24,679 --> 00:46:28,239 It doesn't I don't think it lands for other people. Really, just 585 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,719 think about what you want and then draw the steps to how to make that 586 00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:35,719 happen, which are usually convinced someone else that you did a good job. 587 00:46:36,119 --> 00:46:42,840 And that just involves a conversation for sure. Yeah. Yeah, there was 588 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:50,199 a quote and I can't remember it exactly, but someone said, just because 589 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:55,400 you choose not to play in politics doesn't mean it's not a political game. 590 00:46:55,880 --> 00:47:05,280 H Yeah. I mean I think I think for me, there was the 591 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,840 like this way, you still twist it for yourself, where like, okay, 592 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,239 there is still a game, but I'm going to try to get around 593 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:16,840 it in some way. And I think I think sometimes assigning those labels really 594 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:22,039 hurts. Like another one I think really wasn't great for me in my career. 595 00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:24,000 It was people calling I mean, I don't know if you can believe 596 00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:30,400 this, but apparently early in my career I lacked what are called soft skills, 597 00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,719 you know. I think that goes along with telling people that they're wrong, 598 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:37,800 you know their solution won't work, and then also be like I'm very 599 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,679 to the point and very blatant about it. So, you know, a 600 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:44,440 couple of those things together, and sometimes people's feelings got hurt, which of 601 00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,320 course was never my intention, which is totally different than all those people that 602 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:52,800 do it with this sort of negative or malicious connotation to it, like it 603 00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,280 wasn't about you, it was about like, literally, this solution doesn't work. 604 00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:59,079 I think for me, what really helped to stop calling them soft skills, 605 00:47:59,159 --> 00:48:01,320 stop calling it Paul politics, and focus on what it really means, 606 00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:06,880 which is you can work way more collaboratively with other people if they like working 607 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:08,920 with you, right, And when you phrase it like that, I feel 608 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:14,880 like it much more helps people who maybe it were in my position or similar 609 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:20,719 positions who maybe don't go along by default or different cultures engage with each other 610 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,239 to take a step forward than it would if your manager just says, hey, 611 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:31,800 you know you're missing this manager buzzword that doesn't necessarily connect. Yeah, 612 00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:38,800 for sure. I think you know you mentioned having mentors. I think that's 613 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:45,679 been really I've really taken a completely different view of that over the last few 614 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:51,320 years, because you know, like I grew up in the middle of Texas 615 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,719 in the seventies and eighties and can honestly say, I don't know that I 616 00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:00,320 ever heard the word mentor until I was in my twenty and probably never used 617 00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,960 it in a sentence till I was in my thirties. But now you know, 618 00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,159 it's a very common word. And I used to think, well, 619 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:14,039 I guess I didn't have any mentors, But then I the more I thought 620 00:49:14,039 --> 00:49:16,320 about it, the more I realized that I did. I just didn't know 621 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:24,960 what the word was for them, and it wasn't a negotiated arrangement. And 622 00:49:25,079 --> 00:49:30,079 I think that's still true. You know, like you can have mentors without 623 00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:32,800 having a formal conversation. I have this contract here, would you like to 624 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:36,800 be my mentor? It's very low offer and low commitments, easy out. 625 00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:38,719 You know, it's not that type of thing. Like a mentor can be 626 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:46,239 anyone who who says anything to you, whether it's helpful or hurtful, and 627 00:49:47,039 --> 00:49:53,559 it doesn't have to be like on your terms. And what I mean by 628 00:49:53,639 --> 00:49:59,360 that is like, you know, people have their way of communicating, you 629 00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:00,400 know, Like I said, grow up in Texas and then I went to 630 00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:05,039 the Navy. And this was back in a time whenever being in the Navy, 631 00:50:05,559 --> 00:50:09,960 your performance was judged on how many bar fights you got into without going 632 00:50:10,039 --> 00:50:14,039 to jail. So it was, you know, it was a different environment. 633 00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:19,119 So whenever, like your master chief told you, hey, you ever 634 00:50:19,199 --> 00:50:21,360 pulled that shit again, I'm gonna kick your ass. You know, that 635 00:50:21,519 --> 00:50:25,719 was a form of mentoring. You know, it wasn't it wasn't a nurturing 636 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:29,679 relationship, but it was a mentoring relationship. And so I think that was 637 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,159 one of the things I've learned over the years is that mentoring comes in all 638 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:37,599 forms and it's not a predefined, negotiated relationship. Yeah, no, that's 639 00:50:38,119 --> 00:50:43,199 I think it's even more effective when it's not. Like I hear of companies 640 00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:47,400 trying to start some sort of mentorship program, and it's usually like my company 641 00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:51,239 is starting a mentorship program? How do I make this be effective? And 642 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,440 I'm like, well, why are they starting it? Like you're getting in 643 00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:58,079 on the wrong foot almost, And you say that, and I'm thinking back 644 00:50:58,119 --> 00:51:00,599 to my own career and I feel like every job I was in, there 645 00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:06,920 was always someone who I gravitated towards and because maybe they were more experienced, 646 00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:08,599 but it was never like, hey, can you be my mentor? It 647 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:14,119 was me asking them questions when I when something came up, trying to get 648 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,599 additional information or understand how they did things. I think that that definitely helped 649 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,000 makes like going to the right people potentially that I think I would definitely classify 650 00:51:22,039 --> 00:51:28,360 as as mentorship. So you asked about things to do early on in your 651 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:31,840 career, you know, find people that can teach you something, and they 652 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:37,599 will absolutely teach you those things. I hate to quote Steve Jobs, but 653 00:51:37,679 --> 00:51:43,079 he has an example where he called out and asked an executive for feedback to 654 00:51:43,159 --> 00:51:45,400 help them and they're like, yeah, sure, I how can I do 655 00:51:45,519 --> 00:51:50,400 that? I think it really is that people will I think Adam Grant says 656 00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:55,440 the majority of people are matters that most people will reciprocate un asked. Really, 657 00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,159 if they think there's a good engagement for them or could be a good 658 00:52:00,199 --> 00:52:05,239 relationship or whatever. It doesn't have to be like something static like put a 659 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,880 label on it, like it's not necessarily required. Yeah for sure, for 660 00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:15,360 sure. All right, so there you go, Welcome to the podcast. 661 00:52:16,679 --> 00:52:20,639 Yeah, I mean, you know, even here I I I before this, 662 00:52:21,039 --> 00:52:23,519 I was asking you, you know, personal questions about how you how 663 00:52:23,599 --> 00:52:25,719 you run this, you know, as a good as a good example, 664 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:30,480 you know, come ready, how do I do this effectively? Just because 665 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,079 you know, I want to do the best job I can and I'm not 666 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:37,400 the super expert in the area. Obviously I pull skills from what I have 667 00:52:37,519 --> 00:52:40,480 in the past, but looking for people that have even just slightly more experience 668 00:52:40,559 --> 00:52:46,119 than I do. Yeah for sure. So what do you think should we 669 00:52:46,159 --> 00:52:49,199 move on the picks? Yeah, I'm trying to. I'm trying to think 670 00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:52,639 if I have any you know, most most important thing that I you know, 671 00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,719 ever ever wanted to share here. And I feel like I have so 672 00:52:55,840 --> 00:53:00,599 many things, but probably not super relevant at this point. So yeah, 673 00:53:00,639 --> 00:53:04,480 let's let's do the That's the great thing about picks is it doesn't have to 674 00:53:04,559 --> 00:53:07,760 be relevant at all. Just be like, oh man, this is so 675 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:15,679 cool, you know. And so we were talking about movies before we started 676 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:21,920 recording, and during that conversation I learned that, Okay, you obviously are 677 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:27,119 a movie guy. You have your own IMDb account where you save and rank 678 00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:31,280 your movie, so I know you've got something there. He wants he wants 679 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:36,719 to hear my favorite movie of all times, all time favorites, you know. 680 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:38,239 And that's the thing where I'm looking at this list, and I have 681 00:53:38,639 --> 00:53:46,119 twenty two movies rated at ten stars, which is the maximum, and so 682 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:53,039 I feel like even picking one of these is just such such a challenge. 683 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:58,400 Realistically, It's like picking a favorite kid. You can do it as long 684 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:04,360 as the other kids as you have, don't hear you. I mean, 685 00:54:04,519 --> 00:54:06,480 you know, and I like them. I think they liked them all for 686 00:54:06,599 --> 00:54:08,960 different reasons. That's the interesting thing. Like I have ones that are film 687 00:54:09,079 --> 00:54:13,480 noir, which I as a genre I really like, But then I have 688 00:54:13,639 --> 00:54:17,400 ones that just for whatever reason I liked and had some emotional component to it. 689 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,920 For instance, you know what this one I think I saw recently, 690 00:54:22,039 --> 00:54:24,800 So I'll say this. I think you know, it's not my top one, 691 00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:28,440 but you know, this is the one I'm going to pull out this 692 00:54:28,559 --> 00:54:35,440 contact. It's if you haven't seen it, it's with Jodie Foster and I 693 00:54:35,559 --> 00:54:39,079 think they're the sad part. It's about about making contact with aliens. Maybe 694 00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:44,199 she has sort of a moment in building a machine. It's about the SETI 695 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:51,719 project where they discover, of course, signal from outer space and t USB 696 00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:57,599 drives to the satellite to contact. No, actually they the communication around our 697 00:54:57,639 --> 00:55:00,679 space was a machine in ructions for building a machine which they could build. 698 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:05,639 And of course, like you know, she spent her whole life doing this, 699 00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,000 you know, through adversity, and she doesn't get to be the one 700 00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:14,719 to sit in the chair to go contact the aliens. Initially, I feel 701 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,920 like the thing that really hit me is there is it's such sort of like 702 00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:21,679 a I don't even know it was intentional, but such a parallel to some 703 00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,760 of the struggles of diversity in the tech industry, because I feel like she 704 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:30,519 was the perfect pick in every single one of these situations and kept getting gone 705 00:55:30,599 --> 00:55:34,079 over for whatever reason. And like the Catharsis, at the end of the 706 00:55:34,119 --> 00:55:37,119 movie, she actually does get to meet the aliens and then no one believes 707 00:55:37,159 --> 00:55:43,599 her, which is just like, I mean, I like space movies, 708 00:55:43,599 --> 00:55:47,639 and I like that one had me just I felt so bad, like hearing 709 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:52,880 that, like just seeing that story, which of course is not real as 710 00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,800 far as I know that, Like, I'm sure there are people out there 711 00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,280 who said that, you know, they've they've met aliens, right, Yeah, 712 00:56:00,599 --> 00:56:06,920 there's been a few, but none of the interviews I've seen have the 713 00:56:07,039 --> 00:56:15,280 credibility of Jodie Foster just say yeah, what's your what's what's your peck? 714 00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:21,760 So my pick for the week is going to be for the platform Con conference. 715 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,199 And we had the guy who created it, Luca. He was on 716 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:30,400 this show. I don't remember that episode number, but he was on last 717 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:36,000 year talking about platform engineering. But platform Con is a virtual conference that's five 718 00:56:36,199 --> 00:56:39,199 days long, coming up here in a few months. But it's it's really 719 00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:44,159 well done. And the reason I'm picking it is because at the end of 720 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:50,760 the conference there's going to be a live Q and a session where I'm going 721 00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,559 to interview some of the keynote speakers at the end of the conference. So 722 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,159 I'm looking forward to that, looking forward to to talk with those people and 723 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,800 seeing if I can uncover some things that didn't get brought up in the conference, 724 00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,880 and that seems pretty awesome. Yeah, Yeah, it's a cool it's 725 00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:13,559 a cool conference, and the best part is it's virtual, so you can 726 00:57:13,639 --> 00:57:16,400 just throw it on the background while you're doing whatever it is you're doing and 727 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:20,960 you don't have to try to argue with your boss to get you know, 728 00:57:22,039 --> 00:57:25,360 to get approval to go to it. But check it out at platform con 729 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:30,039 dot com. And you've got a few months to get into to get signed 730 00:57:30,079 --> 00:57:34,000 up for that, so plenty of time I start. I'm going to put 731 00:57:34,039 --> 00:57:37,280 it on my list because I'm sure there's something there I'm interested in. Yeah, 732 00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:42,920 they cover a pretty good range of topics, you know, not just 733 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:49,639 obviously not just DevOps related, but platform related and platform really is I'm like 734 00:57:49,679 --> 00:57:54,239 in the word platform because I think it's more representative of all of the things 735 00:57:55,039 --> 00:58:02,800 that we cover versus DevOps. Yeah, for sure, So that's going to 736 00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:07,960 be my pick. So for anyone who's listening to the show and wants to 737 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:15,039 reach out to you about it, either about authors or just career or just 738 00:58:15,159 --> 00:58:19,840 to say hey, when can you get that will do fired so that we 739 00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:24,639 can go on with a decent podcast? How can they contact you? I 740 00:58:24,719 --> 00:58:30,800 think for sure? I accept LinkedIn connections if you start a conversation, I 741 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,199 will I will I kick people out of my connections if they don't talk to 742 00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:39,559 me on LinkedIn. I think knowing who your network is that is valuable to 743 00:58:39,639 --> 00:58:45,360 you is valuable, and it's difficult to go through your rolodex if you don't 744 00:58:45,519 --> 00:58:49,960 know who you can actually talk to. But I think fundamentally the best place 745 00:58:50,159 --> 00:58:53,599 is on discord. I'm in a bunch of different Discord communities. I think 746 00:58:53,639 --> 00:58:57,840 we can get the link in my host profile or something like that for sure. 747 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:00,320 Yeah, And that's definitely going to be the best way. And I 748 00:59:00,159 --> 00:59:05,760 happily talk about whatever you want to talk about. Their cool right on. 749 00:59:07,599 --> 00:59:09,440 My wife spends a lot of time on Facebook. Not a lot of time, 750 00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:14,679 but she's on Facebook. But she has a similar rule where she only 751 00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:20,559 allows fifty people as her Facebook friends. So if someone else wants to be 752 00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,639 her friend on Facebook and their number fifty one, she's like, I got 753 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,920 to kick someone else out before I can be friends with you because fifty is 754 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:31,079 the limit. So there's two really good points about that. First one, 755 00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:35,079 I'm doing the exact same thing on Facebook. I mean, if we think 756 00:59:35,079 --> 00:59:38,960 about Dunbar's number, which is not a fixed number for the record, it's 757 00:59:39,199 --> 00:59:44,519 just not possible to have that many close connections, so realistically, you should 758 00:59:44,559 --> 00:59:47,360 keep people in the loop that are relevant for you. It's way more effective 759 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:52,800 and you'll be happier when you are focusing on your connections that matter. On 760 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,480 LinkedIn, it's slightly different. I don't put a fixed number there because there 761 00:59:55,559 --> 00:59:59,800 is a advertisement effect for my brand. It's sort of like Twitter. The 762 00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:01,519 more people that hear me, the better. But I'm not on Facebook and 763 01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:05,920 I almost never use it other than I you know, I do need to 764 01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,719 talk to one of these really close people, and I don't really use Facebook 765 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:14,880 at all besides that. Yeah, agreed. Cool, All right, Well, 766 01:00:15,039 --> 01:00:19,599 Warren, I'm excited to have you here and I'm looking forward to many 767 01:00:19,679 --> 01:00:22,960 many episodes with you, and I think this is going to be fun. 768 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:29,119 Yeah, me too, I'm I'm excited right on. Cool. Well, 769 01:00:29,159 --> 01:00:31,960 thanks for listening to everyone, and we will see y'all next week with another 770 01:00:32,159 --> 01:00:37,159 episode. And I'll stop the podcast as soon as I find my mouse there 771 01:00:37,199 --> 01:00:40,119 we go, all right, see everyone. Bye.