It's probably the most commonly asked question of someone like me who knew them both.
Were they really friends? And I always say, you can't believe how
strong and real their friendship was. And it was at from the beginning till
Arnie died. It was trained in the early days when Fat Jack, as
a recall him, was challenging the king and a lot of there were a
lot of ugly things in those days. People old enough like me to remember,
they yelled called him fat Jack, and they cheered when he made a
bad shot, and it was really ugly. But Jack said to me one
time, you know, I never fought with Arnie. My fight was with
Arnie's army. All. This is John Stay from Pellam, Alabama, and
I play at Oak Mountain State Park golf Course. This is Golf Smarter number
eight ninety nine. Arnie and Jack. Stories of my long friendship with two
remarkable men feature in the author Charlie, You Meet Them. This is Golf
Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you
lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green.
Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast, Charlie. Hello, Fred, glad
to be Will you glad to have you on the show. I'm very excited.
I read the book. I actually got a copy of the book a
couple of weeks ago, and I read it so fast that I was like
prepared to do this interview weeks and weeks ago, and I'm like, oh
wait, now I gotta remember what we were talking about. But it's it's
really perfect for this podcast because it's a series of stories, right right,
So what how did this book come about? It's not just like I'm going
to write a book someday, it's you were kind of prompted to do this.
A couple of years ago. The president of the club where I live
in in California, Tradition in Laquita, we were having launch one day and
he said, you know, Charlie, I've been thinking you probably were one
of the few people, if not the only person I knew Arnie and Jack
intimately for at the same time. And I said, well, I hadn't
thought of it, but there certainly weren't many. And he said, I
would like you to make a talk to the members of the club, just
recounting some of your memories. So I said, that will be fine.
And I did that and it went quite well, and I was urged after
the speech. A lot of people came up to me and you, you
really need to write a book about this. So I did. That's exactly
how it happened. And so did you just were you on a speaking circuit
just telling stories about Arnie and Jack? No? No, no, that
was all that was. The president of the club said to me, you
may be one of the few people that knew them both in Italy. I'd
like you to make a speech to the membership of the club. And then
I made the speech to the members of the club about my memories with Jack
and Arnie. And that's when people said, you really ought to put this
in a book. And how long did it take you to put the book
together? Hee? I don't remember now, probably six months. And were
you just were you working with a co writer so you can just throw out
stories and let them massage it. No? Never, I never. If
everything I've ever done I do myself. I don't ever have a co writer
or the way I do it. I have a wonderful assistant back in Cincinnati,
where I lived for many years, and I would dictate a segment to
her. She type of up. Send it to me, I would edit
it, send it back to her, and then we go to the next
one. So that's simple. Oh, that's great my kind of guy.
It's true because like so many times, I'll be listening to other podcasts and
they'll list this long list of people who are involved in the production of every
episode, and it's like, really, I just do this all by myself.
That's right, only me, only me, only me. All right,
Well, enough of me. Let's first let's get your history of how
you met Jack. And we're talking obviously about Jack, right. I met
Jack fifty three years ago. Now, I think I used to be the
CEO of a company in Cincinnati, Task Broadcasting Company. We were a broadly
based entertainment company and we wanted to build a golf course on some extra land
that we had, and so obviously the choice in Ohio was Nicholas because he
was an Ohio guy and he was just starting then, he was just starting
his own design firm. He had worked with pe Die before, and so
we called Jack and Jack built the course and we became very close friends.
Then. That was in nineteen seventy two and we still are. Wow.
And then how did you meet Arnie Arnold Palm. I got to know Arnie
during my LPGA years because he would be at different events and so on,
and we got to know one another. Not close, but friendship, good
friendship. The the tournament of my last tournament as LPJ Mister was actually a
team event down at PGA West, not just a few miles from where I
live here. So I noticed that Jack and Arnie were playing together. So
I went down to wish them well, and I did, and Arnie said,
I've been meaning to give you a phone call. I need to talk
to you. He said, could you have a beer with me? After
a round. Of course, I'd say I can. So we met in
the pub PGA West, and he's knowing Arnie, he bought us each a
beer and then right out of the right out of the blue, he said,
I want you to come in and help me run all my companies.
And I just fact picked myself up the floor, and he said, my
wife particularly thinks that I need to have somebody helping me in my dealings.
Besides I amg she said, because she said, if if you should predecease
me, I don't want to have to deal directly with IMG not that she
didn't like IMG, but she would just feel comfortable with somebody in between.
And he said, I'd like you to do that. So after a couple
of meetings and a couple of dinners, that's what I agreed to do.
I told him, though, that I couldn't be a full time employee because
I had already made some commitments because I was being I was retiring as LPGA
commissioner, and I had made several commitments in the back in Ohio board seats
and board chairmanships and things like that. And so he said, that's okay.
You just become my adviser and consultant. But he said there are two
conditions. One, you and your wife need to move to bail who we
were living down at in South Florida. I want you to move to bay
Hill. And he said the second thing is I want you to be in
this office next to me. And he pointed there there was two offices adjoining
at bay Hill, his office and then a smaller office with a door between.
So the next ten years I spent talking through that open door to Arnie.
That's how it happened. Ten years, ten years. But now there
was something in the book I don't think you just touched on here about your
compensation for working for him. Well, we started out. He paid me
a very generous commission or stipend, and I thought about it for a couple
of weeks, and I went in one morning. He said, Arnie,
I've given this a lot of thought, and I really don't want you to
pay me. And you thought I hit him in the head with a brick.
He said, this is ridiculous. No one ever told me it didn't
want me to pay him. And I said, well, I look at
it this way. If you pay me, then I'm an employee. Maybe
it's a different kind of employee, but I'm still an employee. If if
you don't pay me, and I work for you as a friend, I
honestly think I can give you more honest advice and you will be more likely
to take it if you know it's coming as a friend. So that's what
we did. And my wife says, the dumbest thing I ever did,
But she didn't mean that she was she was kidding. Turned out to be
the right thing, of course it did. But when you were thinking about
that, that's as you were describing this story, I'm thinking, Oh,
my God, did you tell your wife that you were thinking that? And
what was her reaction? That's right, No, it was That's exactly the
way it went. Wow. And he didn't complain, but he still gave
you that office space. So you were still working side by side. Yeah,
and I was free to do my other commitments the chairman, board chairmans
and other boards in Ohio. And so I certainly got real benefit from that
association. I would think so. And you kind of touched on the fact.
But now, when you first started talking about Jack, you were working.
You weren't working for the lp GA. Oh no, but Jack,
it was long. It was in nineteen seventy, well, nineteen seventy,
and I didn't go with the LPGA until nineteen ninety. How did that happen?
I mean, you weren't the LPGA. Yeah, how did you get
Well, they had a problem with their commissioner, in fact, they fired
him. And the head of the Players Association was a lady named Judy Dickinson.
She was Gardner Dickinson's wife and a good player in her own right.
And I knew her casually because we belong to the same club in South Florida,
the latcha Hatche Club, and so she called me one day and she
said, we lost our commissioner, or we excused our commissioner, and I'm
wondering if you would like to be considered for the job. And I said,
he was, I don't know where I would or not. I had
just Tap Broadcasting had just been sold, so I didn't have other commitments,
but I wasn't sure about it. And I said, let me put it
this way. I'm not going to go through a lot of interviews. I'm
sixty years old. I don't want to go through a bunch of interviews.
But when you when you've come to the point where you think you want to
move, if i'm your guy called me. So six or so months later,
I was actually in London with my wife and she Judy called me in
and said, we'd like you to be the commissioner. And it really I
think fred was because of my relationship with Jack and I'll come back to that
in a minute. But also, um, my old company, Tap Broadcasting,
sponsored the LPGA championship at our club there, the one that Jack built
for ten years, so I knew a lot of the players, they knew
me, so it was a very comfortable thing. So, and this is
in the book, but it's words repeating. After I decided to do it,
I said, well, I got a couple of calls I want to
make. So I called Nicholas and I went actually went down to see him
in his office in North Palm and I said, Jack, I've been asked
to be commissioner of the LPGA, and I'm inclined to do it, but
is this something you think is the right thing for me to do? Should
I do this? And he laughed and said, you better damn well do
it. I recommended you, and I had not known that that he recommended
me. So that we went. It was easy from there. Oh my
gosh, that's great. Well, these are the type of stories that I
want to drag out of you and are in the book. And I know
even if people hear these stories now, they're still going to want to read
this book. But we're going to take a time out. We'll be back
right after this. Okay. So we figured out how you met Jack,
We figured out how you met Arnie. We figured we learned about the fact
that if it wasn't for Jack, you would never been the LPGA commissioner.
And it was his idea in the first place. That's right, um,
So tell me more about their friendship. Well, it's it's probably the most
commonly asked question of someone like me who knew them both. Were they really
friends? And I always say, you can't believe how strong and real their
friendship was. And it was at um from the beginning until Larne he died,
and it was strained in the early days when pat Jack as they called
him, was challenging the king and a lot of there was a lot of
ugly things in those days that people old enough like me to remember. They
yelled, called him fat Jack, and they cheered when he made a bad
shot, and it was really ugly. But Jack said to me one time,
you know, I never I never fought with Arnie. I had to
fight. My fight was with Arnie's army. But that ended. Arnie never
contributed to it in the slightest and they became I think, great friends and
a sort of a side note to that. One time years later, my
wife and I were having dinner with Arnie and Kid, his second wife,
at Palmer's Restaurant here in California. And I don't know why I did this,
and I almost kicked myself and I did. It turned out fine,
But I said, you know, Arnie, I've been thinking about growing older
and maturing, and I said, you know, I've concluded that you're not
really mature until you meet someone who does better what you do best. And
then I thought, why in the hell did I say that? And he
said, I know what you mean. That was Jack. So he knew
from the minute they first met that Jack was a better player. But he
also knew that he arn't had a skill that nobody else had and maybe ever
will have as the face of the game and charisma. Yeah, yeah,
definitely the charisma and the face of the game. Yeah, well, okay,
you kind of incorporated this, but I was going to ask you as
a two parter of tell me about their friendship and then tell me about their
relationship as competitors. Oh, they always wanted to beat one another to death,
and they made no moans about that, and they always would laugh and
say, you know, we're dear friends, but we'd love to beat one
another at anything we do, and that that actually was part of I think
the building of the friendship that they could they could have that would have spirited
competition and come out the other side. And there's another side note. I've
always said that my wife, I think agrees with me. I've always said
that if that friendship or that relationship had started to go south early on instead
of the way it did go, I'm convinced that the two wives, who
were very very close and dear friends, would have pulled those guys aside and
said, hey, you guys, grow up, you need to be friends.
You ought to be friends. And then they were. But I've often
thought that the role of the wives in the founding and the touring of that
friendship is not well enough known by people. But it was very very important.
You know. That's something I was going to bring up later in the
in the podcast. But let's go there. Now, let's talk about the
relationship of the wives. Well, they were just they were very close friends.
They deep family ladies. Talked all the time, really yeah, talked
very often. End up. I remember Barbe said, Whinnie Palmer is my
hero. And Winnie used to Whinnie used to say, I don't understand how
how Barbe gets all the things done that she does. She'd write thank you
notes and so on. So it was it was a it was a real
genuine friendship of two people who genuinely cared and liked one another. M Are
there any stories, significant stories that jump out to you on how it truly
represents their relationship? How, how, what how it represents their relationship?
Do you have any stories about what you know their involvement and how it brought
their relationship close? Both they both were always outside the rope lines. They
followed them their I all the way. They then became close. But it
obviously it was golf had bought them together and their family gals. Neither one
of them were golfers themselves, but that probably was good because they weren't trying
to kill its husbands. So it was just that it was two two ladies
who had common goals, common interests, and genuinely liked one another. You
know, we've all had friendships that have grown and it's harder to find them,
but we know we genuinely liked that person for a variety of reasons.
They were just so similar in their temperament and in their commitment to their husbands
and their family that it was it was an easy friendship to get started,
and of course it grew and grew and grew. Did the two couples socialize
away from golf tournaments. I mean when there was no golf tournament going on
that they were both competing in. Did the couples occasionally? Occasionally they did,
but typically if they weren't participating in a tournament, they'd be off doing
something else. But yes they did. They did get together. And was
it ever three couples where you and your wife join them the forum? Yeah,
oh yeah, we did a fact. When Arnie lived out here,
he was next to our neighbor of ours, and we would see a lot
of them. And when I remember one time Jack called me and he said,
I'm going to be in town tomorrow. Can we have dinner? And
I said yeah. He said where shall we go? And I said,
well, if you don't mind a lousy meal, we could go to Palmer's
restaurant. He laughed, no, I'd love to do that. So we
went our wives and we went there, and I've never seen anything like it.
Fred He the two of them had a drink and then the two of
them got up and walk together through the restaurant. People were falling off their
chairs. I mean, it was incredible to see these two guys in Arnie's
restaurant, and they hadn't expected to see him, so and they saw one
another. They were both so busy that they went their own way a lot
because they were doing their own thing, but they were together a lot.
Did you ever notice any angst between them, any animosity between the two the
two competitors, or was it always? No? Never? Ever? No,
It was a genuine friendship. And as I say, I think in
the book, maybe that. If you want better testament than that, go
to the transcript of the memorial service for Arnold at Latrobe after he passed away
and where Jack's And if you read that, you will know an heartbeat that
it was a real, genuine friendship. It must have been a hard loss
for you as well. Oh God, I miss him every day. I
go out of my house now every morning and looks at his house. It's
just I miss him so much. Everybody does. Yeah, I'm sorry for
your loss. Yeah, thank you. We're gonna take another time out.
We'll be back with more about Arnie and Jack. From the Eyes of Charlie
meets him right after this. One of the chapters is called a typical day
at bay Hill. What does that mean? Arnie either played golf, or
hit balls every single day at bay Hill every day, and he played in
this famous Bay Hill shootout. Um. I was never in that league.
So I would go to work in the morning. He'd go to work about
eight o'clock, and then we'd have lunch, and then he'd go play golf
and I'd work till about maybe three and then my wife we typically joined me
here with her friends and we'd played nine holes of golf in the afternoon.
But his his day was golf every day. Was he was he arranged rat
or do you just want to go out and play eighteen? Who? Annie?
Yeah? Both? He just hit m hitting golf balls every everyway he
was on the range. If he wouldn't play, amazing, amazing. Um,
So let's see here. I just want to hear more stories from from
the book. Um, there's a there was a chapter here called further Word
about the Captain's Table Captain's Club, and I apologize it is the Captain's Club.
Yeah, that's an organization that Nicholas put together for the Memorial Tournament.
Many clubs in Europe have what they call a Captain's Club, but it's very
rare in the United States. But Jack created such a club from Merefield and
it started out high Cotton President the United States and on and on and on,
and it has still grown to this day. I was honored and thrilled
to be chosen as one of the captains. I still am. And it's
a it's an illustrious group. In fact, I use the line one time
that I've used since I said, you know, I'm wanted to be part
of this group. And I said, as I look around this room,
I'm kind of overwhelmed. I'm the only one here that I've never heard of
before. But the Captain's Club has two responsibilities. One is to critique and
help Jack with the golf course, thinking in terms of changes or things like
that. In the second is to choose the honoree for the following year.
And so those are the two functions of the Captain's Club meets once a year,
but then there are committees of the club that that function all year long.
It's a wonderful, wonderful organization and it's an incredible thrill to be part
of. Yeah, and are they still bringing new people into the club.
Yes, yeah, people people pass away. I'm not sure even any original
members left. They passed away. So the new people all the time,
and it's a it's a real interesting organization becau as the people who were on
it, and I was always blessed. And I'll tell you one story there
that came out of that one meeting for having dinner after the meeting, and
Andy O'Brien, who worked for Jack, his publicist, and came around and
whispered in my ear and he said, you know, Charlie, this is
a something anniversary. I don't remember which of the famous duel in the Sun
where Jacket played Arnold Jack played Tom Watson at Turnberry and some people think the
greatest mac golf match ever played were Tom one by one stroke. And he
said that would you like to ask the guys where they'd like to speak about
that? I said, I'm not doing that. If Jack wants me to,
I will so, and he went back around whispering Jacks here, and
he came back to me and he said, Jack said, if I want
to do it, do it. So I said, ladies, and tell
them this is an historic occasion. This is the whatever it was anniversary of
the famous tool in the Sun. And incredibly we have the two participants in
this room, Tom Watson and Jack Nicholas and I said, Jack, would
you like to say a word? And he said, I'll say two words.
I lost it and then I said, okay, then Tom, how
about you? Tom said I want and I'll talk as long as you want.
That that was a price this moment of the Captain's Club. Was there
ever a player, a golfer who tried to become part of this small click,
and I mean the Jack and Arnie click. You know, did Tom
Watson try to get involved or was you know, where's everybody welcome? Or
were they just so tight with one another it was like, yeah, that's
nice, but thank you. No. I think I think typically the the
small group that just sort of grew was Arnie and Jack and Tom and Gary
Player and then of course there were others over the years. Um Billy Casper
certainly one of them. Raymond Floyd saw him at those those four guys.
M we were probably the ones. I would think I was closest M And
were you close with these guys as well? I was close to Watson,
never that I was not not close to player, but we just didn't move
in the same He was international and I didn't do much of that. So
certainly Tom and I became very close friends. Okay, and what about someone
like Tiger, One of the youngsters that came along. Tiger is he's on
a different plane. He and Jack are good friends. But I never knew.
I knew Tiger but never went well. I was thinking of the guys
that are basically in that age group. Yeah, that would be ye Arnie
and Jack and Tom and Garry, Yeah yeah, and Ray Floyd. Yep.
Awesome. Let's take another time out. There's more to talk about,
more stories to hear. Right after this, I got one for you when
we come back this week on Golf Smarter Mulligans, we have a chat with
Jesse Ortiz, who created the very first fairway medal at his father's company called
or Lamar that changed the history of golf clubs and playability for guys like us.
Confidence is everything. I think you've seen, you know, in the
last several years more people going to hybridge rather than using a three iron or
a four iron, and it's because they have more confidence in a higher losted
club that has a longer shaft and gives them the same distance as the shorter
iron that had the little blade. And you know, you look down on
that three or four, and it looks like you're standing on the edge of
a half dome. They're looking straight down, and you have a little bit
more confidence seeing a wider bodied club with a lot more face angles. So
it's all about confidence, and you get the confidence partly from practice and also
partly from the innovations that as clubmakers we've come up with in the last decade
or so. It's really been a great decade of innovation, but there's only
so much that we can do now under the USGA restrictions. That's Golf Smarter
and Mulligan's episode two hundred and fifteen called Surviving the Clubmaker Wars, featuring Jesse
Ortiz, who at the time of this recording in November twenty eleven, was
developing clubs for the Bobby Jones Company. Please subscribe for free both of our
golf podcasts, Golf Smarter, published every Tuesday, and our sister podcast that
revisits the best of the Golf Smarter podcast called Mulligan's. It's being released every
Friday from Apple podcast, Spotify, Google, Amazon, Audible, or wherever
you're listening right now. All right, Charlie, you teased it, you
teed it up. Actually I was using broadcast terms, but let's use golf
terms. You tied that story up. What do you got to say?
I once asked Jack and Arnie, not at the same time, but individually,
who was the best player you have ever seen? And the answered flabbergasted
me because they each said Eddie Pierce, and I was dumbfoamber. I said,
who's Eddie Pierce? And they said, well, he's not playing.
He never reached his potential, but he was the finest player of the game
I've ever seen. They both said that. And Eddie Pierce is still living.
His name is Billed Pea Rce. But we were googling him. They
had fantastic golfer. Tell me more. Yeah, I've never heard of him.
Well look him up because it would take me too long, and I
haven't made a career out of that. But he was a great player.
I don't know whether he ran afoul of whatever, not practicing enough for none
playing. I don't know. I honestly don't know, but he never made
it for any length of time. He made He played some, but never
where they thought he would be. There is somebody I want to ask you
about that's not probably un Jack and arni's the scope of people. But he
was down in the desert where you are for decades and decades as a coach.
He was one of the founders of Callaway, and he was a featured
guest on our podcast many times. He passed away in twenty eighteen, Tony
Manzoni. Did you know Tony? I knew him, not well, but
I know him. Yeah. Sure, an amazing guy. Do you have
anything you can share about him? Because he has become a fixture on our
podcast even though he has passed away. Every year, at the beginning of
each season, I play all nine of the episodes that he was on with
us, and I get more. Well, I can't really say much,
but I'd love to. I'd love to see those stories. Yeah, yeah,
well I can. I can forward him to you as print, or
you can listen to them. We can. I can share you those links.
You can listen. O great, great, he um. It's amazing.
But whenever he was on and I have interviewed easily over five hundred golf
instructors on this show, I mean your episode eight hundred ninety nine, right,
so um he I would receive more email from golfers all over the world
asking about more information from Tony Manzoni, And there really isn't a lot out
there except for all the great work that he did at the College of the
Desert in your neighborhood. Sure, I'd love to know. I'd love to
know more about that. And I'll tell you a golf teacher story that's my
favorite. Jack's teacher was a guy named Jack Crowd who started teaching Jack when
he was twelve years old at Piota Country Club and Commus. And Jack was
the only teacher Jack Nickolas ever had. And I said to Nicholas one day,
I said, how do you use Growd? And he said, I
may go weeks or months without even seeing Jack Crowd, but he says,
if I have a little problem with my game, I call Jack and he'll
come out and he'll watch me swing the club eight or ten times and he'll
say, Jack, you need to do this, this, and this,
and then we say goodbye. And that was it. Wow, that was
it. Good teachers don't need a lot of time. They know exactly what
their player, how their player plays. Yeah. Yeah, And now we
had the video that everybody, you can just send your your teacher wherever he
is. You can send oh, yeah, And of course Arnie never had
a teacher other than his dad, never had a teacher, right, right,
just gift, just a gift. And they were they were skeptical of
teachers, Arnie because he never had one, and Jack because he only had
one and used him very sparingly. Now you mentioned Jack's relationship with Arnie's army.
Tell me stories about Arnie's army from your side of the rubs. It
was just it was just one of those. It all started in the two
masters from the soldiers from Fort Benning and became a group of people totally on
no organization. Really, it's better organized now than it was then, but
just a group of people who just loved Arnie and followed him and cheered for
him everywhere he went. Very informal, but very real. Yeah, and
so you were just part of it. Actually not a card Caring member,
but you were definitely. I was probably an honorary remember, absolutely, absolutely.
Okay, And now there's something that you have to clarify for all of
us, and that is the history of the drink, the Arnold Palmer.
Yeah, that's the true story of that. Well. I tried long and
hard to get to that, and I got it to that from Russ Meyer,
who was the head of the citation, very close friend of Arnie's,
and Russ said that I'll tell you the real story. Arnie was playing at
some tournament or maybe just that, at some course, and he went into
the dining room to have a lunch, and the waitress came over and said,
what I bring you to drink? And Arnie said to the waitress,
I'll tell you. Pour me half a glass of lemonade and half a glass
of iced sea. So she went away, and she went to the next
table and asking what they'd like to drink, and a woman said, is
that Arnold Palmer? Yeah it is. She said, I'll have what he's
drinking. I'll have an Arnold Palmer. And the best of my knowledge that
true beginning. Wow, it's that simple, and it just took off and
became a brand. It's a good drink. It's a wonderful drink. Yeah,
well, it is a great drink. I tried creating a golf smarter,
which was grapefruit juice and iced tea. Oh yeah, So I went
into a barn and I said it give me a golf smarter, and he
gave me a look like what I said, grapefruit juice and nice teas.
Oh that sounds interesting. It just make sure you call it a golf smarter.
Okay, that's wonderful, that's great, now, Arnie we laughed,
rest my arm when he told me the story. He said, you know,
Arnie, that woman never knew how many millions of dollars he put in
Arnie's pocket. Um, so are we about done? And my wife's getting
a little wrestless. I think, yeah, I just I was just gonna
say that you've got two forwards in the book. One bye bye Jack,
but another one by Doc Griffin. Tell me a little bit about Doc Giffen.
Sorry, yeah, yeah. Doc Giffin was Arnie's assistant for fifty probably
fifty years. He was a writer. He had worked for Pittsburgh Press as
a writer. Then he went to the tour and Arnie hired him from the
tour and they worked together for many, many, many years. I used
to tease Arnie. I said, if anything happens to Doc Giffen, you
won't be able to have anything to say to anybody. He said, no,
no, no no, And Arnie was very articulate. But Doc would
write all of Arnie's talks and help him write, and was Arnie's right hand
every minute of every day for all those years. Wow. Well what a
treat to be able to get him to write a forward for you on this
as well. Were we've been very close friends because, as he points out
and the forward, I was with Arnie a lot of the times when Jock
wasn't, and Doc was with Arnie a lot of times when I wasn't,
so we got filled in the gaps perfect. Well again, the name of
the book is Arnie and Jack Stories of My Long Friendship with two remarkable men,
by Charles S. Meetcham Junior. And meet him as M E H
E M or Charlie Meacham as we know him and Charlie uh, stay in
good health, keep telling stories. We love hearing him. Thank you so
much for your time today. Well, I've got tons of stories about other
things and other people, and I'm happy. I'd love to be on your
show again. You are my ideal interviewer, and I mean that because you
prepare and there's no substitute. I I had a lot of guys work for
me over the years were as interviewers. Some were good and some weren't.
But the ones that were really good prepared. So congratulations to you, and
i'd love to I'd love to be on your show again someday. I'm in
tears right now, thank you very much. Okay, Well, we enjoy
the rest of the day. You will talk and I hope, well,
I really look forward to and I now have your phone number and we can
definitely do that. And as even Vanessa was saying, oh, if you
like stories, you're gonna love talking to Charlie. So yeah, well listen,
um, let me give you my cell phone as well. Okay,
this was your home number, the cell phone. My cell phone is five
one three six eight nine O two. And by the way, I did
you know I've written a couple of other books. No, no, what
are the other books? Pardon me? What other books? No? I
didn't know that. I've written two other books. The first one is about
ten years ago, but it's still still in print. It's called Who's That
with Charlie? And Amazon still has it. And then I wrote another book
about anecdotes, and it's called Total Anecdotal and I wrote that about I wrote
that about five years ago. And Who's That with Charlie is not a it's
not a autobiography, but it has a lot of my life stories in it.
And total Anecdotal is just my fix on how to use anecdotes effectively when
you're speaking. Oh interesting, fascinating, Yeah, pull them up. They
are both books. I know you would enjoy it. So interesting that you
said that I am prepared. I just couldn't put your book down. So
that's why I was prepared. I honestly, I don't read every book that
comes in. I can't obviously, But my style of interviewing and which seems
to have been carrying me through this eighteen year journey of doing these interviews,
is I'll prepare one or anywhere from one to four questions and then let the
person speak, and I listen to what they say, and then I just
pick up on what they're saying and go from there. I just hate idea.
And by the way, who's that with Charlie? As a forward from
Neil Armstrong who closest friends And it's not golf related, although he and I
played loppy golf together. But if you ever wanted to do a show,
how about Neil? I could go on and on and on. Wow,
that would be golf related. Well, we can make it go for later
because we were. In fact, I used to say to him we were
both eighteen handicaps, and I said, that does my ego an enormous boost
because the man who landed first, man who landed on the moon can't play
golf any better than I can. And we played a lot of golf.
But he played on the moon. That's try now he did that was out,
That was Shresh Shephard, right, yeah, yeah, but the deal.
Neil was an engineer and he finally figured out a how he hit a
driver, but he did it with the most ridiculous stance. But he got
the club face on the ball, which is about all that matters. But
anyway, he was one of my dearest friends and as I say, I
could talk about him forever. Well, my friend, you have led a
very blessed life, and it's because you give back I have, indeed,
and I appreciate people who who really, yeah, are interested in them in
what I have to say. Also, to be ninety three years old or
a lot of people have to know all about well, my people would say
ken O'Hara at ninety three were very good. Okay, Well, let's talk
against what a treat It's so awesome to get people late in life who can
share amazing stories about amazing people, and I love bringing them on the show.
I love having those conversations. So you know, I'm actually in Oregon
right now, walking one hundred and four holes over four days, and I
definitely will report on my adventure when I returned. But I wanted to share
with you around that I had recently with Golf Smarter ambassador Jen Shawl when we
played together at Monarch Bay in San Leandro, California, just south of the
Oakland Airport. Near the end of the round, the winds were picking up.
I hooked up as the winds were picking up, I hooked us up
with a couple of microphones. And these are some highlights of a fun conversation
with a fun person. My name's Jen shaw and I play at Monarch Bay
and San Leandro. Well, that was a good introduction. Welcome to the
Golf Smarter podcast. Jen, Thank you, thank you for the invitation of
playing at Monarch Bay here in San Leandro. You love this golf course,
don't you. I love when I look out if you shot, I just
look out at the water and recenter myself. I love it. So we're
right next to the bay on the Oakland side, on the East Bay side,
looking over towards San Francisco. It's just after two o'clock, so the
winds have kicked in. We've had really had no wind at all up to
this point, and now we got a three club win right in our face.
How often you get to play here, Jenn? I play with the
Tuesday ladies, so I come out they we have an eight am shotgun every
Tuesday morning, and then I come out and practice on the weekends. Sometimes
I get another round in. This is a memorable round, not just because
we get to play Togo, but you had something that happened a couple of
holes ago you've never done before in your thirty years of playing golf. Huh.
I had my first eagle ever. Yes, let's walk through it.
Tell me about your eagle. Did a pretty good drive that Yeah, it
was the thirteen and I hit a p drive super balanced on that drive,
so it really rolled out and it left me. It was a part five
for the nitties and a part four for the men. Yeah, and it
left tune or nine out and I'm like, ah, that's far, that's
far. But the wind was behind us, the wind was behind us,
and I'm like, no, guts that story, so I can have my
three wood. I just went for it and it wasn't super high flight,
but it rolled out, edit rolled right upon the green left me about a
forty foot easily. You've seen my putting today, it's not. As I
was walking up, I was like, I'm not gonna put it. It's
possible. I can make this put my first eagle ever ever. Yeah,
that's a phenomenal. Congratulations. Thank you. We have video of Jen's eagle,
her first ever. I had camera on for a while, so we
have video of it, and I will definitely make sure to put her narration
of the whole on a video and put it up on our YouTube channel.
All right, so you think you know me because you've been listening to the
podcast for a while. Thank you. That's very sweet. What would you
want to ask me? I know you like the mental game? I like
the mental game. What would be your your number one thing about the mental
game that you find interesting? Or you're ahama with the mental for so long?
To me, the mental game meant not getting upset over bad shots,
but then it evolved into not thinking about shots about getting over like who we
had We had that one podcast with those bioscientists, two women, and it
was about you know, like how do you block that out of your head?
You just it's just a moment. Just take that moment and think about
something else. So when I started thinking about other things other than my mechanics
and just think knowing that my body knows what to do. I've made all
these shots before. Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad. But just letting
go and let my body do the work, my game got a lot better
real fast. You know. There's one that I've been chanting forever on the
show, which is never follow up bad shot with a stupid but shot.
I say that, I say that from the show. I do I do
with that? I learned that from a listener. Oh really, yeah,
yeah, I totally do that. Yeah. It's hard because if you stay
kind of calm but then you're doing well, then get excited. No,
you can't get can't get excited, no, because you know the next shot
could just be totally awful. I love this game. It's so much fun,
it's so hard, and it's such a challenge. Are there teachers that
I've had on the show, that you like that, I've really connected for
you Vision fifty four and I read that book and did the program. I
love that. Ye. Most recently the guy that wrote the book about the
bioscience like how your brain works. Yeah, that was really interesting. Oh
good. Yeah, and I get scared with those things. Well, and
I don't know if because as a nurse, I've got a little bit of
a science brain. And it really made sense to me. I like that.
Yeah, so I work on that. Oh. You can't just tell
yourself like just calm down like that doesn't your brain doesn't work that way,
right, You have to give it something else to make it calm. Like
that really made sense. That's great. Oh, I love that. So
there's a lot of green to work with behind the pin, yes, and
this rough is very thick it is. Don't try to finesse it too much
to the pin, that's right. So I would aim at the top of
the flag, right, a top of the flag, okay, right,
just so you get all right the ball, ye, because you have all
that room behind it. I'll look at that perfect great shot, great shot
that makes golf fun. That That is definitely what we were talking about earlier,
is that whence you start working on your short game and stuff. That's
where the creativity comes in. All right, we're coming up to the eighteenth
hole here on Arc Bay and you've been a phenomenal host. I really appreciate
it and join me. Thank you so much again. Really glad you had
a good time out here. Oh I had a great time, Yes,
at a great time. You know, there's a couple other golfers who live
in northern California that I will be playing with hopefully this spring and summer,
and want you to know that if you live here or are planning to be
in San Francisco area or close by and want to play golf, please reach
out to me and let me know. It really is an absolute blast for
me to meet you and play with you. And give thanks to people like
John State of pellam Alabamba for being our newest Golf Smarter ambassador. John wisely
chose to receive Tony Manzoni's video of the Lost Fundamental as his gift for leaving
a voicemail. You know, you two are eligible to win one of the
three great prizes just by sharing with us where you live and where you play.
You can select Tony's video, or you can get a glove and glove
storage compartment from Red Rooster golf dot com, a unique glove subscription service that
offers many styles of gloves and twenty six sizes for both men and women.
And Jen was wearing a Red Rooster golf glove when we played. That was
really cool. You also have a choice of getting a box of X one
balls with a Golf Smarter logo from Oden Golf, the golf brand that sponsors
and pays everyday golfers. These balls are a fraction of the price that you'll
usually play and are as good as the more expensive, highly advertised you know,
you know what I'm talking about. I will play these balls and couldn't
tell the difference between that big tea. That's what I'm talking about. Anyway.
You know, when you buy from Oden Golf and you use golf Smarter
at chacount, you receive an additional twenty percent off the order. Good enough.
Their link is in today's show notes. So send me an email and
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say. To become another Golf Smarter ambassador. Just write to Golf Smarter Podcasts
at gmail dot com, or, of course, just visit Golfsmarter dot com
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