1 00:00:02,439 --> 00:00:07,519 It's probably the most commonly asked question of someone like me who knew them both. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,759 Were they really friends? And I always say, you can't believe how 3 00:00:11,839 --> 00:00:17,600 strong and real their friendship was. And it was at from the beginning till 4 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:22,519 Arnie died. It was trained in the early days when Fat Jack, as 5 00:00:22,559 --> 00:00:27,000 a recall him, was challenging the king and a lot of there were a 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,079 lot of ugly things in those days. People old enough like me to remember, 7 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,560 they yelled called him fat Jack, and they cheered when he made a 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,719 bad shot, and it was really ugly. But Jack said to me one 9 00:00:38,799 --> 00:00:42,560 time, you know, I never fought with Arnie. My fight was with 10 00:00:42,679 --> 00:00:46,920 Arnie's army. All. This is John Stay from Pellam, Alabama, and 11 00:00:47,079 --> 00:00:52,520 I play at Oak Mountain State Park golf Course. This is Golf Smarter number 12 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:58,600 eight ninety nine. Arnie and Jack. Stories of my long friendship with two 13 00:00:58,679 --> 00:01:03,200 remarkable men feature in the author Charlie, You Meet Them. This is Golf 14 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,760 Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from great golf minds to help you 15 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:14,040 lower your score and raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green. 16 00:01:14,879 --> 00:01:19,000 Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast, Charlie. Hello, Fred, glad 17 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,879 to be Will you glad to have you on the show. I'm very excited. 18 00:01:22,079 --> 00:01:25,640 I read the book. I actually got a copy of the book a 19 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:30,920 couple of weeks ago, and I read it so fast that I was like 20 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,879 prepared to do this interview weeks and weeks ago, and I'm like, oh 21 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:40,000 wait, now I gotta remember what we were talking about. But it's it's 22 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:46,319 really perfect for this podcast because it's a series of stories, right right, 23 00:01:46,599 --> 00:01:51,079 So what how did this book come about? It's not just like I'm going 24 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,840 to write a book someday, it's you were kind of prompted to do this. 25 00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:59,480 A couple of years ago. The president of the club where I live 26 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:07,079 in in California, Tradition in Laquita, we were having launch one day and 27 00:02:07,079 --> 00:02:12,400 he said, you know, Charlie, I've been thinking you probably were one 28 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,280 of the few people, if not the only person I knew Arnie and Jack 29 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,199 intimately for at the same time. And I said, well, I hadn't 30 00:02:20,199 --> 00:02:22,960 thought of it, but there certainly weren't many. And he said, I 31 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:27,360 would like you to make a talk to the members of the club, just 32 00:02:27,479 --> 00:02:30,919 recounting some of your memories. So I said, that will be fine. 33 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:36,680 And I did that and it went quite well, and I was urged after 34 00:02:36,719 --> 00:02:38,680 the speech. A lot of people came up to me and you, you 35 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:43,840 really need to write a book about this. So I did. That's exactly 36 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:49,800 how it happened. And so did you just were you on a speaking circuit 37 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,439 just telling stories about Arnie and Jack? No? No, no, that 38 00:02:53,599 --> 00:03:00,759 was all that was. The president of the club said to me, you 39 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:04,960 may be one of the few people that knew them both in Italy. I'd 40 00:03:05,039 --> 00:03:08,280 like you to make a speech to the membership of the club. And then 41 00:03:08,319 --> 00:03:14,960 I made the speech to the members of the club about my memories with Jack 42 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,919 and Arnie. And that's when people said, you really ought to put this 43 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,719 in a book. And how long did it take you to put the book 44 00:03:20,759 --> 00:03:25,120 together? Hee? I don't remember now, probably six months. And were 45 00:03:25,159 --> 00:03:30,520 you just were you working with a co writer so you can just throw out 46 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:35,039 stories and let them massage it. No? Never, I never. If 47 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,520 everything I've ever done I do myself. I don't ever have a co writer 48 00:03:39,199 --> 00:03:44,919 or the way I do it. I have a wonderful assistant back in Cincinnati, 49 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,520 where I lived for many years, and I would dictate a segment to 50 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,759 her. She type of up. Send it to me, I would edit 51 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:54,319 it, send it back to her, and then we go to the next 52 00:03:54,319 --> 00:04:00,960 one. So that's simple. Oh, that's great my kind of guy. 53 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,840 It's true because like so many times, I'll be listening to other podcasts and 54 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:09,400 they'll list this long list of people who are involved in the production of every 55 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,879 episode, and it's like, really, I just do this all by myself. 56 00:04:13,719 --> 00:04:15,959 That's right, only me, only me, only me. All right, 57 00:04:16,199 --> 00:04:23,319 Well, enough of me. Let's first let's get your history of how 58 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:29,040 you met Jack. And we're talking obviously about Jack, right. I met 59 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:36,199 Jack fifty three years ago. Now, I think I used to be the 60 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:43,680 CEO of a company in Cincinnati, Task Broadcasting Company. We were a broadly 61 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,000 based entertainment company and we wanted to build a golf course on some extra land 62 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:55,439 that we had, and so obviously the choice in Ohio was Nicholas because he 63 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,959 was an Ohio guy and he was just starting then, he was just starting 64 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,879 his own design firm. He had worked with pe Die before, and so 65 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,040 we called Jack and Jack built the course and we became very close friends. 66 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:15,199 Then. That was in nineteen seventy two and we still are. Wow. 67 00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:24,879 And then how did you meet Arnie Arnold Palm. I got to know Arnie 68 00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:30,160 during my LPGA years because he would be at different events and so on, 69 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,120 and we got to know one another. Not close, but friendship, good 70 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:44,720 friendship. The the tournament of my last tournament as LPJ Mister was actually a 71 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:50,360 team event down at PGA West, not just a few miles from where I 72 00:05:50,399 --> 00:05:56,759 live here. So I noticed that Jack and Arnie were playing together. So 73 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,319 I went down to wish them well, and I did, and Arnie said, 74 00:06:00,399 --> 00:06:04,519 I've been meaning to give you a phone call. I need to talk 75 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,120 to you. He said, could you have a beer with me? After 76 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,240 a round. Of course, I'd say I can. So we met in 77 00:06:13,319 --> 00:06:18,319 the pub PGA West, and he's knowing Arnie, he bought us each a 78 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,879 beer and then right out of the right out of the blue, he said, 79 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,839 I want you to come in and help me run all my companies. 80 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:30,759 And I just fact picked myself up the floor, and he said, my 81 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,959 wife particularly thinks that I need to have somebody helping me in my dealings. 82 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,319 Besides I amg she said, because she said, if if you should predecease 83 00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:46,399 me, I don't want to have to deal directly with IMG not that she 84 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:50,240 didn't like IMG, but she would just feel comfortable with somebody in between. 85 00:06:51,519 --> 00:06:57,319 And he said, I'd like you to do that. So after a couple 86 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,920 of meetings and a couple of dinners, that's what I agreed to do. 87 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,720 I told him, though, that I couldn't be a full time employee because 88 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:10,879 I had already made some commitments because I was being I was retiring as LPGA 89 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:15,240 commissioner, and I had made several commitments in the back in Ohio board seats 90 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,600 and board chairmanships and things like that. And so he said, that's okay. 91 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,160 You just become my adviser and consultant. But he said there are two 92 00:07:25,199 --> 00:07:29,879 conditions. One, you and your wife need to move to bail who we 93 00:07:29,879 --> 00:07:33,639 were living down at in South Florida. I want you to move to bay 94 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:39,079 Hill. And he said the second thing is I want you to be in 95 00:07:39,079 --> 00:07:44,399 this office next to me. And he pointed there there was two offices adjoining 96 00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:48,040 at bay Hill, his office and then a smaller office with a door between. 97 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:55,360 So the next ten years I spent talking through that open door to Arnie. 98 00:07:55,759 --> 00:08:01,639 That's how it happened. Ten years, ten years. But now there 99 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:07,000 was something in the book I don't think you just touched on here about your 100 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:13,360 compensation for working for him. Well, we started out. He paid me 101 00:08:13,399 --> 00:08:20,160 a very generous commission or stipend, and I thought about it for a couple 102 00:08:20,199 --> 00:08:22,160 of weeks, and I went in one morning. He said, Arnie, 103 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:26,079 I've given this a lot of thought, and I really don't want you to 104 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:31,160 pay me. And you thought I hit him in the head with a brick. 105 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:33,519 He said, this is ridiculous. No one ever told me it didn't 106 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:37,600 want me to pay him. And I said, well, I look at 107 00:08:37,639 --> 00:08:41,799 it this way. If you pay me, then I'm an employee. Maybe 108 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:46,720 it's a different kind of employee, but I'm still an employee. If if 109 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,120 you don't pay me, and I work for you as a friend, I 110 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:56,240 honestly think I can give you more honest advice and you will be more likely 111 00:08:56,279 --> 00:09:01,039 to take it if you know it's coming as a friend. So that's what 112 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,399 we did. And my wife says, the dumbest thing I ever did, 113 00:09:03,919 --> 00:09:11,120 But she didn't mean that she was she was kidding. Turned out to be 114 00:09:11,159 --> 00:09:15,200 the right thing, of course it did. But when you were thinking about 115 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,120 that, that's as you were describing this story, I'm thinking, Oh, 116 00:09:18,159 --> 00:09:20,879 my God, did you tell your wife that you were thinking that? And 117 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,480 what was her reaction? That's right, No, it was That's exactly the 118 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:31,440 way it went. Wow. And he didn't complain, but he still gave 119 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,200 you that office space. So you were still working side by side. Yeah, 120 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:41,440 and I was free to do my other commitments the chairman, board chairmans 121 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:48,200 and other boards in Ohio. And so I certainly got real benefit from that 122 00:09:48,279 --> 00:09:54,559 association. I would think so. And you kind of touched on the fact. 123 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:56,679 But now, when you first started talking about Jack, you were working. 124 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,000 You weren't working for the lp GA. Oh no, but Jack, 125 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:07,120 it was long. It was in nineteen seventy, well, nineteen seventy, 126 00:10:07,279 --> 00:10:11,159 and I didn't go with the LPGA until nineteen ninety. How did that happen? 127 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,519 I mean, you weren't the LPGA. Yeah, how did you get 128 00:10:13,879 --> 00:10:18,279 Well, they had a problem with their commissioner, in fact, they fired 129 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:26,360 him. And the head of the Players Association was a lady named Judy Dickinson. 130 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:30,759 She was Gardner Dickinson's wife and a good player in her own right. 131 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,799 And I knew her casually because we belong to the same club in South Florida, 132 00:10:35,159 --> 00:10:39,639 the latcha Hatche Club, and so she called me one day and she 133 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:46,759 said, we lost our commissioner, or we excused our commissioner, and I'm 134 00:10:46,759 --> 00:10:52,200 wondering if you would like to be considered for the job. And I said, 135 00:10:52,279 --> 00:10:54,519 he was, I don't know where I would or not. I had 136 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,879 just Tap Broadcasting had just been sold, so I didn't have other commitments, 137 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:03,759 but I wasn't sure about it. And I said, let me put it 138 00:11:03,799 --> 00:11:05,799 this way. I'm not going to go through a lot of interviews. I'm 139 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,600 sixty years old. I don't want to go through a bunch of interviews. 140 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,720 But when you when you've come to the point where you think you want to 141 00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:18,000 move, if i'm your guy called me. So six or so months later, 142 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:24,440 I was actually in London with my wife and she Judy called me in 143 00:11:24,919 --> 00:11:28,840 and said, we'd like you to be the commissioner. And it really I 144 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,879 think fred was because of my relationship with Jack and I'll come back to that 145 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:39,320 in a minute. But also, um, my old company, Tap Broadcasting, 146 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,879 sponsored the LPGA championship at our club there, the one that Jack built 147 00:11:45,919 --> 00:11:48,879 for ten years, so I knew a lot of the players, they knew 148 00:11:48,919 --> 00:11:52,480 me, so it was a very comfortable thing. So, and this is 149 00:11:52,519 --> 00:11:58,200 in the book, but it's words repeating. After I decided to do it, 150 00:11:58,279 --> 00:12:00,399 I said, well, I got a couple of calls I want to 151 00:12:00,399 --> 00:12:03,960 make. So I called Nicholas and I went actually went down to see him 152 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:09,519 in his office in North Palm and I said, Jack, I've been asked 153 00:12:09,519 --> 00:12:13,039 to be commissioner of the LPGA, and I'm inclined to do it, but 154 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,559 is this something you think is the right thing for me to do? Should 155 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,840 I do this? And he laughed and said, you better damn well do 156 00:12:18,879 --> 00:12:26,159 it. I recommended you, and I had not known that that he recommended 157 00:12:26,159 --> 00:12:28,440 me. So that we went. It was easy from there. Oh my 158 00:12:28,519 --> 00:12:31,799 gosh, that's great. Well, these are the type of stories that I 159 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,360 want to drag out of you and are in the book. And I know 160 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:39,960 even if people hear these stories now, they're still going to want to read 161 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,440 this book. But we're going to take a time out. We'll be back 162 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:50,759 right after this. Okay. So we figured out how you met Jack, 163 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:56,240 We figured out how you met Arnie. We figured we learned about the fact 164 00:12:56,279 --> 00:13:01,759 that if it wasn't for Jack, you would never been the LPGA commissioner. 165 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:07,279 And it was his idea in the first place. That's right, um, 166 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:16,759 So tell me more about their friendship. Well, it's it's probably the most 167 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:22,320 commonly asked question of someone like me who knew them both. Were they really 168 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:28,360 friends? And I always say, you can't believe how strong and real their 169 00:13:28,399 --> 00:13:35,639 friendship was. And it was at um from the beginning until Larne he died, 170 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:43,320 and it was strained in the early days when pat Jack as they called 171 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:48,360 him, was challenging the king and a lot of there was a lot of 172 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,000 ugly things in those days that people old enough like me to remember. They 173 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,960 yelled, called him fat Jack, and they cheered when he made a bad 174 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,440 shot, and it was really ugly. But Jack said to me one time, 175 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,639 you know, I never I never fought with Arnie. I had to 176 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:11,080 fight. My fight was with Arnie's army. But that ended. Arnie never 177 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:18,320 contributed to it in the slightest and they became I think, great friends and 178 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:24,320 a sort of a side note to that. One time years later, my 179 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,279 wife and I were having dinner with Arnie and Kid, his second wife, 180 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,440 at Palmer's Restaurant here in California. And I don't know why I did this, 181 00:14:33,519 --> 00:14:39,159 and I almost kicked myself and I did. It turned out fine, 182 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,039 But I said, you know, Arnie, I've been thinking about growing older 183 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:48,120 and maturing, and I said, you know, I've concluded that you're not 184 00:14:48,279 --> 00:14:56,519 really mature until you meet someone who does better what you do best. And 185 00:14:56,559 --> 00:15:00,720 then I thought, why in the hell did I say that? And he 186 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:05,519 said, I know what you mean. That was Jack. So he knew 187 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,919 from the minute they first met that Jack was a better player. But he 188 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:16,960 also knew that he arn't had a skill that nobody else had and maybe ever 189 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:24,159 will have as the face of the game and charisma. Yeah, yeah, 190 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,519 definitely the charisma and the face of the game. Yeah, well, okay, 191 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:31,840 you kind of incorporated this, but I was going to ask you as 192 00:15:31,879 --> 00:15:37,320 a two parter of tell me about their friendship and then tell me about their 193 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:43,279 relationship as competitors. Oh, they always wanted to beat one another to death, 194 00:15:43,879 --> 00:15:46,919 and they made no moans about that, and they always would laugh and 195 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,200 say, you know, we're dear friends, but we'd love to beat one 196 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:56,519 another at anything we do, and that that actually was part of I think 197 00:15:56,519 --> 00:16:00,240 the building of the friendship that they could they could have that would have spirited 198 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:06,200 competition and come out the other side. And there's another side note. I've 199 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:08,480 always said that my wife, I think agrees with me. I've always said 200 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:15,960 that if that friendship or that relationship had started to go south early on instead 201 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,440 of the way it did go, I'm convinced that the two wives, who 202 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,639 were very very close and dear friends, would have pulled those guys aside and 203 00:16:23,679 --> 00:16:29,519 said, hey, you guys, grow up, you need to be friends. 204 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:32,320 You ought to be friends. And then they were. But I've often 205 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:37,679 thought that the role of the wives in the founding and the touring of that 206 00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:42,120 friendship is not well enough known by people. But it was very very important. 207 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,159 You know. That's something I was going to bring up later in the 208 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,320 in the podcast. But let's go there. Now, let's talk about the 209 00:16:48,399 --> 00:16:53,000 relationship of the wives. Well, they were just they were very close friends. 210 00:16:53,960 --> 00:17:03,799 They deep family ladies. Talked all the time, really yeah, talked 211 00:17:04,039 --> 00:17:10,519 very often. End up. I remember Barbe said, Whinnie Palmer is my 212 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:15,960 hero. And Winnie used to Whinnie used to say, I don't understand how 213 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,559 how Barbe gets all the things done that she does. She'd write thank you 214 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,200 notes and so on. So it was it was a it was a real 215 00:17:26,039 --> 00:17:33,440 genuine friendship of two people who genuinely cared and liked one another. M Are 216 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:41,000 there any stories, significant stories that jump out to you on how it truly 217 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:47,480 represents their relationship? How, how, what how it represents their relationship? 218 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:52,920 Do you have any stories about what you know their involvement and how it brought 219 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,599 their relationship close? Both they both were always outside the rope lines. They 220 00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:03,160 followed them their I all the way. They then became close. But it 221 00:18:03,279 --> 00:18:10,079 obviously it was golf had bought them together and their family gals. Neither one 222 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:15,599 of them were golfers themselves, but that probably was good because they weren't trying 223 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:22,079 to kill its husbands. So it was just that it was two two ladies 224 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:29,759 who had common goals, common interests, and genuinely liked one another. You 225 00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:33,640 know, we've all had friendships that have grown and it's harder to find them, 226 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,599 but we know we genuinely liked that person for a variety of reasons. 227 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,200 They were just so similar in their temperament and in their commitment to their husbands 228 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,759 and their family that it was it was an easy friendship to get started, 229 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,680 and of course it grew and grew and grew. Did the two couples socialize 230 00:18:56,839 --> 00:19:00,200 away from golf tournaments. I mean when there was no golf tournament going on 231 00:19:00,519 --> 00:19:04,200 that they were both competing in. Did the couples occasionally? Occasionally they did, 232 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:11,720 but typically if they weren't participating in a tournament, they'd be off doing 233 00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:17,599 something else. But yes they did. They did get together. And was 234 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,799 it ever three couples where you and your wife join them the forum? Yeah, 235 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,559 oh yeah, we did a fact. When Arnie lived out here, 236 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,799 he was next to our neighbor of ours, and we would see a lot 237 00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:34,720 of them. And when I remember one time Jack called me and he said, 238 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:41,440 I'm going to be in town tomorrow. Can we have dinner? And 239 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,079 I said yeah. He said where shall we go? And I said, 240 00:19:44,079 --> 00:19:47,519 well, if you don't mind a lousy meal, we could go to Palmer's 241 00:19:47,559 --> 00:19:52,759 restaurant. He laughed, no, I'd love to do that. So we 242 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:57,200 went our wives and we went there, and I've never seen anything like it. 243 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:02,119 Fred He the two of them had a drink and then the two of 244 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:07,000 them got up and walk together through the restaurant. People were falling off their 245 00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:11,799 chairs. I mean, it was incredible to see these two guys in Arnie's 246 00:20:11,839 --> 00:20:17,440 restaurant, and they hadn't expected to see him, so and they saw one 247 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:22,039 another. They were both so busy that they went their own way a lot 248 00:20:22,079 --> 00:20:26,880 because they were doing their own thing, but they were together a lot. 249 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:33,799 Did you ever notice any angst between them, any animosity between the two the 250 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:40,079 two competitors, or was it always? No? Never? Ever? No, 251 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,319 It was a genuine friendship. And as I say, I think in 252 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:48,880 the book, maybe that. If you want better testament than that, go 253 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:57,079 to the transcript of the memorial service for Arnold at Latrobe after he passed away 254 00:20:57,599 --> 00:21:03,640 and where Jack's And if you read that, you will know an heartbeat that 255 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:10,119 it was a real, genuine friendship. It must have been a hard loss 256 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,759 for you as well. Oh God, I miss him every day. I 257 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,480 go out of my house now every morning and looks at his house. It's 258 00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:23,599 just I miss him so much. Everybody does. Yeah, I'm sorry for 259 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,960 your loss. Yeah, thank you. We're gonna take another time out. 260 00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:33,039 We'll be back with more about Arnie and Jack. From the Eyes of Charlie 261 00:21:33,039 --> 00:21:41,960 meets him right after this. One of the chapters is called a typical day 262 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:51,319 at bay Hill. What does that mean? Arnie either played golf, or 263 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,839 hit balls every single day at bay Hill every day, and he played in 264 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:03,680 this famous Bay Hill shootout. Um. I was never in that league. 265 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,680 So I would go to work in the morning. He'd go to work about 266 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:15,599 eight o'clock, and then we'd have lunch, and then he'd go play golf 267 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:22,039 and I'd work till about maybe three and then my wife we typically joined me 268 00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:26,640 here with her friends and we'd played nine holes of golf in the afternoon. 269 00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:33,480 But his his day was golf every day. Was he was he arranged rat 270 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:37,680 or do you just want to go out and play eighteen? Who? Annie? 271 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:45,359 Yeah? Both? He just hit m hitting golf balls every everyway he 272 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:52,200 was on the range. If he wouldn't play, amazing, amazing. Um, 273 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:57,119 So let's see here. I just want to hear more stories from from 274 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,880 the book. Um, there's a there was a chapter here called further Word 275 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:10,079 about the Captain's Table Captain's Club, and I apologize it is the Captain's Club. 276 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:15,000 Yeah, that's an organization that Nicholas put together for the Memorial Tournament. 277 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:22,559 Many clubs in Europe have what they call a Captain's Club, but it's very 278 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,319 rare in the United States. But Jack created such a club from Merefield and 279 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:33,519 it started out high Cotton President the United States and on and on and on, 280 00:23:33,759 --> 00:23:38,359 and it has still grown to this day. I was honored and thrilled 281 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:45,680 to be chosen as one of the captains. I still am. And it's 282 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,839 a it's an illustrious group. In fact, I use the line one time 283 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:53,480 that I've used since I said, you know, I'm wanted to be part 284 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,279 of this group. And I said, as I look around this room, 285 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,160 I'm kind of overwhelmed. I'm the only one here that I've never heard of 286 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:11,359 before. But the Captain's Club has two responsibilities. One is to critique and 287 00:24:11,559 --> 00:24:17,000 help Jack with the golf course, thinking in terms of changes or things like 288 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,599 that. In the second is to choose the honoree for the following year. 289 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,279 And so those are the two functions of the Captain's Club meets once a year, 290 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:30,839 but then there are committees of the club that that function all year long. 291 00:24:30,799 --> 00:24:37,400 It's a wonderful, wonderful organization and it's an incredible thrill to be part 292 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,440 of. Yeah, and are they still bringing new people into the club. 293 00:24:41,599 --> 00:24:47,319 Yes, yeah, people people pass away. I'm not sure even any original 294 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,559 members left. They passed away. So the new people all the time, 295 00:24:52,119 --> 00:25:00,079 and it's a it's a real interesting organization becau as the people who were on 296 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:06,400 it, and I was always blessed. And I'll tell you one story there 297 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:14,680 that came out of that one meeting for having dinner after the meeting, and 298 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,759 Andy O'Brien, who worked for Jack, his publicist, and came around and 299 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,920 whispered in my ear and he said, you know, Charlie, this is 300 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,000 a something anniversary. I don't remember which of the famous duel in the Sun 301 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:33,880 where Jacket played Arnold Jack played Tom Watson at Turnberry and some people think the 302 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:41,160 greatest mac golf match ever played were Tom one by one stroke. And he 303 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,839 said that would you like to ask the guys where they'd like to speak about 304 00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:48,599 that? I said, I'm not doing that. If Jack wants me to, 305 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,720 I will so, and he went back around whispering Jacks here, and 306 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,599 he came back to me and he said, Jack said, if I want 307 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,240 to do it, do it. So I said, ladies, and tell 308 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:02,240 them this is an historic occasion. This is the whatever it was anniversary of 309 00:26:02,319 --> 00:26:07,519 the famous tool in the Sun. And incredibly we have the two participants in 310 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,920 this room, Tom Watson and Jack Nicholas and I said, Jack, would 311 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,920 you like to say a word? And he said, I'll say two words. 312 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:22,000 I lost it and then I said, okay, then Tom, how 313 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,720 about you? Tom said I want and I'll talk as long as you want. 314 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:32,240 That that was a price this moment of the Captain's Club. Was there 315 00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:41,000 ever a player, a golfer who tried to become part of this small click, 316 00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:45,440 and I mean the Jack and Arnie click. You know, did Tom 317 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:51,240 Watson try to get involved or was you know, where's everybody welcome? Or 318 00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:53,079 were they just so tight with one another it was like, yeah, that's 319 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:59,599 nice, but thank you. No. I think I think typically the the 320 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:06,039 small group that just sort of grew was Arnie and Jack and Tom and Gary 321 00:27:06,079 --> 00:27:11,799 Player and then of course there were others over the years. Um Billy Casper 322 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,640 certainly one of them. Raymond Floyd saw him at those those four guys. 323 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,359 M we were probably the ones. I would think I was closest M And 324 00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:26,920 were you close with these guys as well? I was close to Watson, 325 00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:32,480 never that I was not not close to player, but we just didn't move 326 00:27:32,519 --> 00:27:36,000 in the same He was international and I didn't do much of that. So 327 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:45,599 certainly Tom and I became very close friends. Okay, and what about someone 328 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:52,440 like Tiger, One of the youngsters that came along. Tiger is he's on 329 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,400 a different plane. He and Jack are good friends. But I never knew. 330 00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,920 I knew Tiger but never went well. I was thinking of the guys 331 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:06,240 that are basically in that age group. Yeah, that would be ye Arnie 332 00:28:06,279 --> 00:28:11,279 and Jack and Tom and Garry, Yeah yeah, and Ray Floyd. Yep. 333 00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,839 Awesome. Let's take another time out. There's more to talk about, 334 00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:18,240 more stories to hear. Right after this, I got one for you when 335 00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:22,160 we come back this week on Golf Smarter Mulligans, we have a chat with 336 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:29,160 Jesse Ortiz, who created the very first fairway medal at his father's company called 337 00:28:29,559 --> 00:28:36,079 or Lamar that changed the history of golf clubs and playability for guys like us. 338 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,480 Confidence is everything. I think you've seen, you know, in the 339 00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:44,279 last several years more people going to hybridge rather than using a three iron or 340 00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:48,920 a four iron, and it's because they have more confidence in a higher losted 341 00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:55,880 club that has a longer shaft and gives them the same distance as the shorter 342 00:28:56,119 --> 00:29:00,559 iron that had the little blade. And you know, you look down on 343 00:29:00,559 --> 00:29:02,839 that three or four, and it looks like you're standing on the edge of 344 00:29:02,839 --> 00:29:06,480 a half dome. They're looking straight down, and you have a little bit 345 00:29:06,519 --> 00:29:11,079 more confidence seeing a wider bodied club with a lot more face angles. So 346 00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:15,559 it's all about confidence, and you get the confidence partly from practice and also 347 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:22,200 partly from the innovations that as clubmakers we've come up with in the last decade 348 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,759 or so. It's really been a great decade of innovation, but there's only 349 00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:33,359 so much that we can do now under the USGA restrictions. That's Golf Smarter 350 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:38,400 and Mulligan's episode two hundred and fifteen called Surviving the Clubmaker Wars, featuring Jesse 351 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:44,359 Ortiz, who at the time of this recording in November twenty eleven, was 352 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,680 developing clubs for the Bobby Jones Company. Please subscribe for free both of our 353 00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:53,799 golf podcasts, Golf Smarter, published every Tuesday, and our sister podcast that 354 00:29:53,880 --> 00:30:00,480 revisits the best of the Golf Smarter podcast called Mulligan's. It's being released every 355 00:30:00,519 --> 00:30:07,279 Friday from Apple podcast, Spotify, Google, Amazon, Audible, or wherever 356 00:30:07,279 --> 00:30:15,000 you're listening right now. All right, Charlie, you teased it, you 357 00:30:15,119 --> 00:30:19,079 teed it up. Actually I was using broadcast terms, but let's use golf 358 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,240 terms. You tied that story up. What do you got to say? 359 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:29,440 I once asked Jack and Arnie, not at the same time, but individually, 360 00:30:30,599 --> 00:30:36,640 who was the best player you have ever seen? And the answered flabbergasted 361 00:30:36,759 --> 00:30:41,400 me because they each said Eddie Pierce, and I was dumbfoamber. I said, 362 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:47,599 who's Eddie Pierce? And they said, well, he's not playing. 363 00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:52,839 He never reached his potential, but he was the finest player of the game 364 00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:56,359 I've ever seen. They both said that. And Eddie Pierce is still living. 365 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:02,680 His name is Billed Pea Rce. But we were googling him. They 366 00:31:02,759 --> 00:31:08,240 had fantastic golfer. Tell me more. Yeah, I've never heard of him. 367 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,759 Well look him up because it would take me too long, and I 368 00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:15,960 haven't made a career out of that. But he was a great player. 369 00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:23,480 I don't know whether he ran afoul of whatever, not practicing enough for none 370 00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:27,720 playing. I don't know. I honestly don't know, but he never made 371 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,960 it for any length of time. He made He played some, but never 372 00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:37,599 where they thought he would be. There is somebody I want to ask you 373 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:45,119 about that's not probably un Jack and arni's the scope of people. But he 374 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:51,440 was down in the desert where you are for decades and decades as a coach. 375 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:56,200 He was one of the founders of Callaway, and he was a featured 376 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,799 guest on our podcast many times. He passed away in twenty eighteen, Tony 377 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,480 Manzoni. Did you know Tony? I knew him, not well, but 378 00:32:04,519 --> 00:32:07,559 I know him. Yeah. Sure, an amazing guy. Do you have 379 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:12,880 anything you can share about him? Because he has become a fixture on our 380 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,119 podcast even though he has passed away. Every year, at the beginning of 381 00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:20,640 each season, I play all nine of the episodes that he was on with 382 00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:24,960 us, and I get more. Well, I can't really say much, 383 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:30,079 but I'd love to. I'd love to see those stories. Yeah, yeah, 384 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,640 well I can. I can forward him to you as print, or 385 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,240 you can listen to them. We can. I can share you those links. 386 00:32:35,279 --> 00:32:40,039 You can listen. O great, great, he um. It's amazing. 387 00:32:40,119 --> 00:32:46,359 But whenever he was on and I have interviewed easily over five hundred golf 388 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:51,359 instructors on this show, I mean your episode eight hundred ninety nine, right, 389 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:57,920 so um he I would receive more email from golfers all over the world 390 00:32:58,359 --> 00:33:01,519 asking about more information from Tony Manzoni, And there really isn't a lot out 391 00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:05,640 there except for all the great work that he did at the College of the 392 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,680 Desert in your neighborhood. Sure, I'd love to know. I'd love to 393 00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:13,519 know more about that. And I'll tell you a golf teacher story that's my 394 00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:19,799 favorite. Jack's teacher was a guy named Jack Crowd who started teaching Jack when 395 00:33:19,799 --> 00:33:27,279 he was twelve years old at Piota Country Club and Commus. And Jack was 396 00:33:27,319 --> 00:33:31,359 the only teacher Jack Nickolas ever had. And I said to Nicholas one day, 397 00:33:31,519 --> 00:33:35,519 I said, how do you use Growd? And he said, I 398 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:39,119 may go weeks or months without even seeing Jack Crowd, but he says, 399 00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:43,599 if I have a little problem with my game, I call Jack and he'll 400 00:33:43,599 --> 00:33:47,240 come out and he'll watch me swing the club eight or ten times and he'll 401 00:33:47,279 --> 00:33:50,119 say, Jack, you need to do this, this, and this, 402 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:55,160 and then we say goodbye. And that was it. Wow, that was 403 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,039 it. Good teachers don't need a lot of time. They know exactly what 404 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,599 their player, how their player plays. Yeah. Yeah, And now we 405 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,400 had the video that everybody, you can just send your your teacher wherever he 406 00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:10,519 is. You can send oh, yeah, And of course Arnie never had 407 00:34:10,519 --> 00:34:14,960 a teacher other than his dad, never had a teacher, right, right, 408 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:22,360 just gift, just a gift. And they were they were skeptical of 409 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:27,840 teachers, Arnie because he never had one, and Jack because he only had 410 00:34:28,039 --> 00:34:34,519 one and used him very sparingly. Now you mentioned Jack's relationship with Arnie's army. 411 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:38,559 Tell me stories about Arnie's army from your side of the rubs. It 412 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:43,840 was just it was just one of those. It all started in the two 413 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:51,039 masters from the soldiers from Fort Benning and became a group of people totally on 414 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:57,079 no organization. Really, it's better organized now than it was then, but 415 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,760 just a group of people who just loved Arnie and followed him and cheered for 416 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:06,920 him everywhere he went. Very informal, but very real. Yeah, and 417 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,440 so you were just part of it. Actually not a card Caring member, 418 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:17,800 but you were definitely. I was probably an honorary remember, absolutely, absolutely. 419 00:35:19,079 --> 00:35:22,199 Okay, And now there's something that you have to clarify for all of 420 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:27,719 us, and that is the history of the drink, the Arnold Palmer. 421 00:35:28,519 --> 00:35:31,039 Yeah, that's the true story of that. Well. I tried long and 422 00:35:31,119 --> 00:35:35,480 hard to get to that, and I got it to that from Russ Meyer, 423 00:35:35,559 --> 00:35:39,400 who was the head of the citation, very close friend of Arnie's, 424 00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,679 and Russ said that I'll tell you the real story. Arnie was playing at 425 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:52,599 some tournament or maybe just that, at some course, and he went into 426 00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:58,840 the dining room to have a lunch, and the waitress came over and said, 427 00:35:59,599 --> 00:36:02,280 what I bring you to drink? And Arnie said to the waitress, 428 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,400 I'll tell you. Pour me half a glass of lemonade and half a glass 429 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,639 of iced sea. So she went away, and she went to the next 430 00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:15,480 table and asking what they'd like to drink, and a woman said, is 431 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:21,719 that Arnold Palmer? Yeah it is. She said, I'll have what he's 432 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:27,360 drinking. I'll have an Arnold Palmer. And the best of my knowledge that 433 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:34,639 true beginning. Wow, it's that simple, and it just took off and 434 00:36:35,119 --> 00:36:38,320 became a brand. It's a good drink. It's a wonderful drink. Yeah, 435 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,639 well, it is a great drink. I tried creating a golf smarter, 436 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:49,679 which was grapefruit juice and iced tea. Oh yeah, So I went 437 00:36:49,679 --> 00:36:52,239 into a barn and I said it give me a golf smarter, and he 438 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,480 gave me a look like what I said, grapefruit juice and nice teas. 439 00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:59,519 Oh that sounds interesting. It just make sure you call it a golf smarter. 440 00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:05,559 Okay, that's wonderful, that's great, now, Arnie we laughed, 441 00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:07,840 rest my arm when he told me the story. He said, you know, 442 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,920 Arnie, that woman never knew how many millions of dollars he put in 443 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:20,519 Arnie's pocket. Um, so are we about done? And my wife's getting 444 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:22,199 a little wrestless. I think, yeah, I just I was just gonna 445 00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:27,000 say that you've got two forwards in the book. One bye bye Jack, 446 00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:30,960 but another one by Doc Griffin. Tell me a little bit about Doc Giffen. 447 00:37:30,079 --> 00:37:35,719 Sorry, yeah, yeah. Doc Giffin was Arnie's assistant for fifty probably 448 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,440 fifty years. He was a writer. He had worked for Pittsburgh Press as 449 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,280 a writer. Then he went to the tour and Arnie hired him from the 450 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:49,320 tour and they worked together for many, many, many years. I used 451 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,840 to tease Arnie. I said, if anything happens to Doc Giffen, you 452 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:58,280 won't be able to have anything to say to anybody. He said, no, 453 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,559 no, no no, And Arnie was very articulate. But Doc would 454 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:10,079 write all of Arnie's talks and help him write, and was Arnie's right hand 455 00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:15,559 every minute of every day for all those years. Wow. Well what a 456 00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:17,960 treat to be able to get him to write a forward for you on this 457 00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:22,840 as well. Were we've been very close friends because, as he points out 458 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,199 and the forward, I was with Arnie a lot of the times when Jock 459 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,360 wasn't, and Doc was with Arnie a lot of times when I wasn't, 460 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:35,000 so we got filled in the gaps perfect. Well again, the name of 461 00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:38,920 the book is Arnie and Jack Stories of My Long Friendship with two remarkable men, 462 00:38:39,639 --> 00:38:45,159 by Charles S. Meetcham Junior. And meet him as M E H 463 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:51,880 E M or Charlie Meacham as we know him and Charlie uh, stay in 464 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,400 good health, keep telling stories. We love hearing him. Thank you so 465 00:38:54,599 --> 00:38:58,639 much for your time today. Well, I've got tons of stories about other 466 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,719 things and other people, and I'm happy. I'd love to be on your 467 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,760 show again. You are my ideal interviewer, and I mean that because you 468 00:39:08,119 --> 00:39:13,599 prepare and there's no substitute. I I had a lot of guys work for 469 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,719 me over the years were as interviewers. Some were good and some weren't. 470 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:23,639 But the ones that were really good prepared. So congratulations to you, and 471 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:30,320 i'd love to I'd love to be on your show again someday. I'm in 472 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,719 tears right now, thank you very much. Okay, Well, we enjoy 473 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,199 the rest of the day. You will talk and I hope, well, 474 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:42,840 I really look forward to and I now have your phone number and we can 475 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,079 definitely do that. And as even Vanessa was saying, oh, if you 476 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:50,280 like stories, you're gonna love talking to Charlie. So yeah, well listen, 477 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:55,960 um, let me give you my cell phone as well. Okay, 478 00:39:57,039 --> 00:40:00,239 this was your home number, the cell phone. My cell phone is five 479 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:08,199 one three six eight nine O two. And by the way, I did 480 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,679 you know I've written a couple of other books. No, no, what 481 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,119 are the other books? Pardon me? What other books? No? I 482 00:40:16,199 --> 00:40:21,039 didn't know that. I've written two other books. The first one is about 483 00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:24,199 ten years ago, but it's still still in print. It's called Who's That 484 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:31,079 with Charlie? And Amazon still has it. And then I wrote another book 485 00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:39,320 about anecdotes, and it's called Total Anecdotal and I wrote that about I wrote 486 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:45,280 that about five years ago. And Who's That with Charlie is not a it's 487 00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:50,599 not a autobiography, but it has a lot of my life stories in it. 488 00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:57,719 And total Anecdotal is just my fix on how to use anecdotes effectively when 489 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,920 you're speaking. Oh interesting, fascinating, Yeah, pull them up. They 490 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:06,679 are both books. I know you would enjoy it. So interesting that you 491 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,320 said that I am prepared. I just couldn't put your book down. So 492 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,400 that's why I was prepared. I honestly, I don't read every book that 493 00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:20,679 comes in. I can't obviously, But my style of interviewing and which seems 494 00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,880 to have been carrying me through this eighteen year journey of doing these interviews, 495 00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:30,679 is I'll prepare one or anywhere from one to four questions and then let the 496 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,599 person speak, and I listen to what they say, and then I just 497 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,960 pick up on what they're saying and go from there. I just hate idea. 498 00:41:38,119 --> 00:41:43,079 And by the way, who's that with Charlie? As a forward from 499 00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:50,599 Neil Armstrong who closest friends And it's not golf related, although he and I 500 00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:53,840 played loppy golf together. But if you ever wanted to do a show, 501 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,880 how about Neil? I could go on and on and on. Wow, 502 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,760 that would be golf related. Well, we can make it go for later 503 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,800 because we were. In fact, I used to say to him we were 504 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,519 both eighteen handicaps, and I said, that does my ego an enormous boost 505 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,360 because the man who landed first, man who landed on the moon can't play 506 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:20,119 golf any better than I can. And we played a lot of golf. 507 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,119 But he played on the moon. That's try now he did that was out, 508 00:42:24,559 --> 00:42:29,039 That was Shresh Shephard, right, yeah, yeah, but the deal. 509 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:35,039 Neil was an engineer and he finally figured out a how he hit a 510 00:42:35,159 --> 00:42:39,519 driver, but he did it with the most ridiculous stance. But he got 511 00:42:39,559 --> 00:42:43,559 the club face on the ball, which is about all that matters. But 512 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,719 anyway, he was one of my dearest friends and as I say, I 513 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,880 could talk about him forever. Well, my friend, you have led a 514 00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:58,679 very blessed life, and it's because you give back I have, indeed, 515 00:42:59,039 --> 00:43:04,000 and I appreciate people who who really, yeah, are interested in them in 516 00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:06,480 what I have to say. Also, to be ninety three years old or 517 00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:10,599 a lot of people have to know all about well, my people would say 518 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:16,480 ken O'Hara at ninety three were very good. Okay, Well, let's talk 519 00:43:16,519 --> 00:43:27,719 against what a treat It's so awesome to get people late in life who can 520 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:34,079 share amazing stories about amazing people, and I love bringing them on the show. 521 00:43:34,119 --> 00:43:37,199 I love having those conversations. So you know, I'm actually in Oregon 522 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,960 right now, walking one hundred and four holes over four days, and I 523 00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:46,079 definitely will report on my adventure when I returned. But I wanted to share 524 00:43:46,119 --> 00:43:52,280 with you around that I had recently with Golf Smarter ambassador Jen Shawl when we 525 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,960 played together at Monarch Bay in San Leandro, California, just south of the 526 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,400 Oakland Airport. Near the end of the round, the winds were picking up. 527 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:07,000 I hooked up as the winds were picking up, I hooked us up 528 00:44:07,159 --> 00:44:12,760 with a couple of microphones. And these are some highlights of a fun conversation 529 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,960 with a fun person. My name's Jen shaw and I play at Monarch Bay 530 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,320 and San Leandro. Well, that was a good introduction. Welcome to the 531 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,800 Golf Smarter podcast. Jen, Thank you, thank you for the invitation of 532 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:29,840 playing at Monarch Bay here in San Leandro. You love this golf course, 533 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,079 don't you. I love when I look out if you shot, I just 534 00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:36,000 look out at the water and recenter myself. I love it. So we're 535 00:44:36,119 --> 00:44:40,360 right next to the bay on the Oakland side, on the East Bay side, 536 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,039 looking over towards San Francisco. It's just after two o'clock, so the 537 00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:50,039 winds have kicked in. We've had really had no wind at all up to 538 00:44:50,159 --> 00:44:52,920 this point, and now we got a three club win right in our face. 539 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,000 How often you get to play here, Jenn? I play with the 540 00:44:55,079 --> 00:44:59,559 Tuesday ladies, so I come out they we have an eight am shotgun every 541 00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:02,559 Tuesday morning, and then I come out and practice on the weekends. Sometimes 542 00:45:02,599 --> 00:45:07,719 I get another round in. This is a memorable round, not just because 543 00:45:08,039 --> 00:45:13,880 we get to play Togo, but you had something that happened a couple of 544 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,199 holes ago you've never done before in your thirty years of playing golf. Huh. 545 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:22,480 I had my first eagle ever. Yes, let's walk through it. 546 00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:30,320 Tell me about your eagle. Did a pretty good drive that Yeah, it 547 00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:36,679 was the thirteen and I hit a p drive super balanced on that drive, 548 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:38,639 so it really rolled out and it left me. It was a part five 549 00:45:38,679 --> 00:45:43,440 for the nitties and a part four for the men. Yeah, and it 550 00:45:43,599 --> 00:45:47,159 left tune or nine out and I'm like, ah, that's far, that's 551 00:45:47,199 --> 00:45:50,920 far. But the wind was behind us, the wind was behind us, 552 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,199 and I'm like, no, guts that story, so I can have my 553 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:59,159 three wood. I just went for it and it wasn't super high flight, 554 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,039 but it rolled out, edit rolled right upon the green left me about a 555 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:09,239 forty foot easily. You've seen my putting today, it's not. As I 556 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,920 was walking up, I was like, I'm not gonna put it. It's 557 00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:19,880 possible. I can make this put my first eagle ever ever. Yeah, 558 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:25,159 that's a phenomenal. Congratulations. Thank you. We have video of Jen's eagle, 559 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,599 her first ever. I had camera on for a while, so we 560 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:37,519 have video of it, and I will definitely make sure to put her narration 561 00:46:37,679 --> 00:46:44,400 of the whole on a video and put it up on our YouTube channel. 562 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:46,880 All right, so you think you know me because you've been listening to the 563 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,920 podcast for a while. Thank you. That's very sweet. What would you 564 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,360 want to ask me? I know you like the mental game? I like 565 00:46:53,440 --> 00:47:01,719 the mental game. What would be your your number one thing about the mental 566 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:07,920 game that you find interesting? Or you're ahama with the mental for so long? 567 00:47:08,039 --> 00:47:13,079 To me, the mental game meant not getting upset over bad shots, 568 00:47:14,519 --> 00:47:21,199 but then it evolved into not thinking about shots about getting over like who we 569 00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:28,039 had We had that one podcast with those bioscientists, two women, and it 570 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,199 was about you know, like how do you block that out of your head? 571 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:36,119 You just it's just a moment. Just take that moment and think about 572 00:47:36,159 --> 00:47:40,519 something else. So when I started thinking about other things other than my mechanics 573 00:47:42,679 --> 00:47:45,480 and just think knowing that my body knows what to do. I've made all 574 00:47:45,519 --> 00:47:49,840 these shots before. Sometimes they're good, sometimes they're bad. But just letting 575 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,599 go and let my body do the work, my game got a lot better 576 00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:57,559 real fast. You know. There's one that I've been chanting forever on the 577 00:47:57,599 --> 00:48:00,440 show, which is never follow up bad shot with a stupid but shot. 578 00:48:00,519 --> 00:48:05,239 I say that, I say that from the show. I do I do 579 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,199 with that? I learned that from a listener. Oh really, yeah, 580 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:12,000 yeah, I totally do that. Yeah. It's hard because if you stay 581 00:48:12,119 --> 00:48:16,199 kind of calm but then you're doing well, then get excited. No, 582 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,320 you can't get can't get excited, no, because you know the next shot 583 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,960 could just be totally awful. I love this game. It's so much fun, 584 00:48:25,639 --> 00:48:30,559 it's so hard, and it's such a challenge. Are there teachers that 585 00:48:30,639 --> 00:48:34,199 I've had on the show, that you like that, I've really connected for 586 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:38,000 you Vision fifty four and I read that book and did the program. I 587 00:48:38,119 --> 00:48:45,280 love that. Ye. Most recently the guy that wrote the book about the 588 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,960 bioscience like how your brain works. Yeah, that was really interesting. Oh 589 00:48:50,119 --> 00:48:52,199 good. Yeah, and I get scared with those things. Well, and 590 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,079 I don't know if because as a nurse, I've got a little bit of 591 00:48:55,159 --> 00:48:59,840 a science brain. And it really made sense to me. I like that. 592 00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:04,079 Yeah, so I work on that. Oh. You can't just tell 593 00:49:04,159 --> 00:49:07,920 yourself like just calm down like that doesn't your brain doesn't work that way, 594 00:49:07,079 --> 00:49:10,039 right, You have to give it something else to make it calm. Like 595 00:49:10,159 --> 00:49:15,280 that really made sense. That's great. Oh, I love that. So 596 00:49:15,679 --> 00:49:19,280 there's a lot of green to work with behind the pin, yes, and 597 00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:24,320 this rough is very thick it is. Don't try to finesse it too much 598 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:29,320 to the pin, that's right. So I would aim at the top of 599 00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,880 the flag, right, a top of the flag, okay, right, 600 00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,519 just so you get all right the ball, ye, because you have all 601 00:49:37,559 --> 00:49:45,400 that room behind it. I'll look at that perfect great shot, great shot 602 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:51,199 that makes golf fun. That That is definitely what we were talking about earlier, 603 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,320 is that whence you start working on your short game and stuff. That's 604 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:59,320 where the creativity comes in. All right, we're coming up to the eighteenth 605 00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,519 hole here on Arc Bay and you've been a phenomenal host. I really appreciate 606 00:50:02,559 --> 00:50:08,239 it and join me. Thank you so much again. Really glad you had 607 00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:10,239 a good time out here. Oh I had a great time, Yes, 608 00:50:10,599 --> 00:50:15,679 at a great time. You know, there's a couple other golfers who live 609 00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,400 in northern California that I will be playing with hopefully this spring and summer, 610 00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,559 and want you to know that if you live here or are planning to be 611 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:29,840 in San Francisco area or close by and want to play golf, please reach 612 00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:34,039 out to me and let me know. It really is an absolute blast for 613 00:50:34,119 --> 00:50:39,320 me to meet you and play with you. And give thanks to people like 614 00:50:39,679 --> 00:50:45,400 John State of pellam Alabamba for being our newest Golf Smarter ambassador. John wisely 615 00:50:45,519 --> 00:50:51,440 chose to receive Tony Manzoni's video of the Lost Fundamental as his gift for leaving 616 00:50:51,679 --> 00:50:54,519 a voicemail. You know, you two are eligible to win one of the 617 00:50:54,960 --> 00:51:00,639 three great prizes just by sharing with us where you live and where you play. 618 00:51:00,199 --> 00:51:04,920 You can select Tony's video, or you can get a glove and glove 619 00:51:05,039 --> 00:51:09,199 storage compartment from Red Rooster golf dot com, a unique glove subscription service that 620 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:15,760 offers many styles of gloves and twenty six sizes for both men and women. 621 00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:21,559 And Jen was wearing a Red Rooster golf glove when we played. That was 622 00:51:21,639 --> 00:51:24,239 really cool. You also have a choice of getting a box of X one 623 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:30,079 balls with a Golf Smarter logo from Oden Golf, the golf brand that sponsors 624 00:51:30,119 --> 00:51:35,880 and pays everyday golfers. These balls are a fraction of the price that you'll 625 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:44,400 usually play and are as good as the more expensive, highly advertised you know, 626 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,960 you know what I'm talking about. I will play these balls and couldn't 627 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:52,280 tell the difference between that big tea. That's what I'm talking about. Anyway. 628 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:59,639 You know, when you buy from Oden Golf and you use golf Smarter 629 00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:04,039 at chacount, you receive an additional twenty percent off the order. Good enough. 630 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,440 Their link is in today's show notes. So send me an email and 631 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,000 I'll get back to you with some instructions of what to do and what to 632 00:52:10,159 --> 00:52:16,039 say. To become another Golf Smarter ambassador. Just write to Golf Smarter Podcasts 633 00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:21,480 at gmail dot com, or, of course, just visit Golfsmarter dot com 634 00:52:21,559 --> 00:52:25,079 and click on the Hay Fred button. Now, I haven't asked for this 635 00:52:25,519 --> 00:52:30,480 for a while, but may I request that you leave a review about either 636 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:36,000 or both Golf Smarter and Golf Smarter Mulligans from wherever you listen to the show. 637 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,440 It really helps others find us, and there's nothing quite like the word 638 00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:45,320 of mouth, especially from you, our ambassadors. And once you post a 639 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:50,559 review, send me what you wrote and where you put it. Not only 640 00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,719 are you going to be a Golf Smarter Ambassador. By doing that, you 641 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,599 can choose one of those three gifts we give to friends who open the show. 642 00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:01,679 Thank you for your continued support, and if you have any questions, 643 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:07,920 comments, or suggestions for upcoming episodes, please click on the Hey Fred button 644 00:53:07,039 --> 00:53:09,360 when you visit Goolfsmarter dot com