Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis, your host. And if only you could see behind the fourth wall as it is, just got into the hotel room. There's probably stuff in the background. I could see it anyway, just made it here in time. Stuck behind log trucks in northern California. I got to meet with some great people out here. I've been having a good time. Ben Hansen, the friend that's with me and I hung around together for several hours. Got to hang out with Alejandro and Karen for a few different times, and barbecue over at Bryce Sables House with David o'learry from Project Blue Book. Spent a blast out here. I've been having a really good time. And so next week I hope to have Gary Nolan down at Stanford. I'm just waiting to hear back from him to see if he's good to go on that. If not, we do have a really fantastic guest that was part of the Vietnam War. He had an encounter during the Vietnam War. So that should be really exciting either way next week, and we'll be doing that from still from California out here. Just a couple of things our blog this week is UFOs over Pine Bush, which was a place I was at just all about a month ago, somewhere around there, and another great blog by Charles Lear. Thank you Charles for that. Our guest tonight is doctor Bob Gross. I met him out in Phoenix. I believe it was two thousand, nineteen or eighteen, I can't really remember for sure. A great guy. He's going to be talking about kind of how the the UFO, the things seem to be flowing forward, and how he can with his education background kind of get the word out there, and a lot of other things. Will be talking on several different topics about that. I do want to touch on something and in no way and I trying to say that I'm a good, great person and everyone should listen to me. But I will tell you a situation. Last night, I was asked to go on a radio show. I believe it was a live show, and the topic was the three I believe three things that are going on on the second part of the American Horror Story, which is a great series in its tenth season. I was surprised to hear that on Netflix, and the second part of that is about the Eisenhower Foe agreement quote unquote Serpo and also about Valiant Thor and so all these stories in my mind are major hoaxes, but American Horror Story is using them for their entertainment and show this year. So basically I was asked to come on and talk about those things. The person with me we were researching these things while i was driving north in California, and I'm kind of just laughing at some of the aspects of these things. And so I called back the publicist and said, Hey, look, just so let you know that I think all these things are just bs and it's all hoaxes, and you know, I need for the host of the show to know that's the approach that I have to take. And he says, yeah, well you can say alleged this alleged that. Anyway, I got booted. I got booted off the show because I wanted to say what these things really are, which are all hoaxes and they're so crazy anything if any research is done at all, and any of these things that totally they totally fall apart, each and every one of them. So the point I'm getting at is you have to watch where you're you're you're getting your information you're new in this topic and you want to understand what's going on. If you listen to the person that may have taken my place, they're going to be all sold on the idea that all these things that are way way out there fringy really happened. And if you really want to know things that really do happen in the UFO field, you have to watch where you're getting your information from. And it's kind of too bad. I've seen a lot of things over the years where kind of this fantasy will all of a sudden turn into a fact, you know, So you just have to be careful if you're new in looking into this topic. And anyway, we're ready to bring in our guests this evening. Bob, welcome to the show. Thank you, Martin. Great to see you again. That's right, doctor Bob, I should say, yes, yeah, it was great. You know you you were on the We had a big round table. Do you recall that, Yes, yes, that was a blast with twenty and eighteen at the International Yes, yeah, yeah, lots of fun. So, Bob, you're since then you have been looking into what's happening in the UFO field and and your thoughts. Let's First of all, before we get into any of that, UM, let's hear about your background and what gets you interested in this topic to begin with, if you would, Well, first of all, I really enjoyed your introduction just now. What you said was exactly on the mark, and I hope I can, you know, prove that to you this evening with the information that I have for you. But again, my name is doctor Bob Wenzel Gross. I'm originally from the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area, and by nature, I'm a creative artist who selected music as my preferred medium of expression and in I decided that. Well, in the nineteen eighty four, I received a doctorate of Education from Penn State University. And back then I was curious about things like esthetics, acoustics, music and research, I mean real research. And I did a lot of research for Penn State, and I went around the country presenting my research about Penn State four Penn State on behalf of Penn State. So that my research, my advanced approach to research, prompted Penn State University's graduate school to award my doctoral dissertation and excellent rating. So that's basically how I started out there. I have just just to give you a thumbnail sketch of my career, because we could probably be here all night. I'm like seventy three years old, but I have twenty five years in education as a teacher. I taught at the higher education level. I taught at penn State University. I taught at Indiana University of Pennsylvania. I taught at at South Texas College, and I taught at New Mexico State University. And I also taught in the public schools. I taught in elementary schools as well as secondary schools. Then on top of that twenty five years of teaching, I did seventeen years in administration, so I had I worked for both educational institutions and I worked for governments. I was I worked for the UH at local governments, for state governments, and I worked for the federal governments. A federal government, I'm sorry, federal government, and I'm like governments. Yes, yeah, I don't want to give myself away here, but but I was a I started out as at what was called a change agent. Then I became a curriculum specialist, and then I was a trouble shooter and a turnaround specialist for the government. And I think UH and what got me started in the whole idea of researching UAPs is that the best word. I guess that's the best thing to call them right now. But they were yeah. I mean, my opinion is there's only a small fraction of the society that knows what they are, and they're trying to make that an upper level word to be used that's not associated with aliens right away, or fringe or whatever the little green men as they say. But you can say it's part of the name of my show is podcast UFO. You're welcome to use either word, because sometimes I will say UAP formerly known as UFOs. There you go, kind of like what they say about Prince yeah, formerly known as Prince Yeah Yeah. Pretty funny. But anyhow, you know, that's I got interested in them because in nineteen eighty five, I was writing a children's musical and I lived in Pennsylvania at that time, and I wanted to write this children's musical about real UFO events that occurred in Pennsylvania. And that's when I had heard about the UH. The group called UM the Pennsylvania Association for the Study of the Unexplained. Yes, that was Stans Gordon Group Stan Gordon's Group, and I contacted him and uh, I told him my background and what I was going to do. And I told him, you know, I was a researcher for Penn State, and you know, I had the credentials and so forth. And I still had to go through a background check and a you know, an interview, and I think it was one of those baseline psychological tests, and then they accepted me into It was called PASSA and they were they were a pretty reputable, reputable group back in nineteen eighty five. But that's how I got started and it grew from there. Huh. And when you were involved in that? How how much did you get involved in that? Like they have so many things going on there according to stand there's all types of cryptids, And I mean you involved in all of it? Yes, Uh, yeah, I can. I can remember the first I was a field investigator and we went through a little bit of training. The group was well, I think about thirty five members at that time, and they had a lot of professionals in that group. And I remember he assigned me to go out and another person who was a movie producer. We were going out to investigate this one strange things that was happening at this one house. And then finally the person called me back and said, well, I was you know, these things really didn't happen at my house, but there were some really strange things going on. So I was kind of glad that that one didn't happen. But yeah, in nineteen eighty seven, pass I put together or a like a workshop on UFOs at at the greens I think Greensburg Mall something like that outside of Pittsburgh. And so I went to that and he had a lot of different people there, and that's when I ran into some live witnesses for the first time that came forward about the Kesburg case that happened in nineteen sixty five. So that was a pretty uh interesting place. And I ran into Lynda Moulton's house mother when I was there. Wow, that's that's what she said. She was though, Yeah, I don't know for sure. She didn't have any identification that could have been an EBE too, you know, yes, I'm guessing, I'm just guessing. Yeah. Yeah, So, um, you know the one case that you often hear about it in Pennsylvania, you know, with the Kecksberg. Yes, and I just wanted you know, four, Like I said, we do have a lot of new listeners. Just in a nutshell. I'm not I can't remember the exact year that this happened, nineteen sixty five. Do you want to just do a nutshell? And I want to know your opinion of that one. Okay, And this happened in nineteen sixty five. I was I was just a kid back then, and I was living I lived in the Pittsburgh area, and one day I'm taking making a long story short, but I have a twin brother and we were sitting in the car. It was in nineteen sixty five, Chevy and pala if you can imagine that. So we were sitting in the car and on the over the radio, we were listening to Katie Ka, and a message came over that, uh a UFO flying saucer or no, it wasn't a flying saucer. They just said a UFO had been sighted outside of Greensburg, Pennsylvania, and uh. So we drove home right away and asked our parents if we could drive out there, which that was about fifty miles away from where we lived, and they said, no way, not the way you tube drive. So we just I just heard the whole case unfold on the Katika radio and on Katika television when it came on the news that night. So that's how I was exposed to it. And then later on being a member of PASSA that was kind of like their their baby, you know, that was the UFO incident that they had a kind of a select group that was investigating that. So I just threw osmosis basically, I learned things about that Kicksperg incident. Then in nineteen eighty seven, during the conference it was done in coordination with Moufon and PASSA. That's when the first witnesses came up. And I think I was possibly the only UFO field investigator that was possibly the first one to hear witnesses talk about the Kexburg case. But that was like, you know what thirteen years or no what twenty what sixty five to this was eighty seven, twenty five, twenty two years later? Yeah, and yeah, that's an interesting case. You know there it seems like a little bit of feedback. I can't really do much from this end about it. Maybe you may want to turn your volume down a little bit. I don't know that I can, but Okay, we'll just go with it. I'll move with Mike. I'm gonna mute your mic while I talk. So um, we had I think it was John Ventry, controversial figure as you know, probably had an idea that Kesburg was a satellite, and he had some pretty compelling evidence. I had him on basically sort of debating Stan Gordon about about the whole thing because it didn't quite fit. There was a lot of things that didn't quite fit, so out on mutual Mike here and ask you what's your opinion of his theory. Yes, In fact, John and I talked and there was another person that John was working with. Oh, I can't think I know Owen. Yeah, any uh, I can't. I can't think of his name right now. But but they were both working on that and that was the what was it the M Mark two or something that they they said that it was, and they did some research on it, and I was in contact with I think his name was Owen, because I was doing research at the same time on the Kexspurg case. And I told him, you know, the object that they say landed there, it didn't look anything at all like what the witnesses described. And I had, actually I had, I had spoken with war witnesses who saw the Kecksburg object come in for a relatively soft landing. They were they seen they had seen it in the sky. They had seen it. They had watched it, sorry, they had watched it change directions and so forth right was in the sky. So they knew it wasn't a meteor or anything like that. But what the witnesses described that day that they saw on the ground was this, uh. It was an acorn shaped gold object with some strange writing around the base. And that's what the witnesses described. And then I so I started researching, and I found out, you know, there was a satellite, a Coronas satellite that was launched from California that same morning, and then it had an a A it was a it was a type of a spy satellite inside and that the container it was called a film bucket that this this satellite was in matched the description of what the witnesses saw to a t And I, you know, I traced traced it and found out why they would have done it, and took me, you know, a couple of years to figure it out. It was not that uh satellite that they claimed it was, And in fact I talked to Owen later and with all the information that I had, plus I had additional information that they didn't have, he said, yuh, mine was the bet. He agreed that mine was the better solution to it. So you think that's what that was. So you actually think that's just Do you feel comfortable that that mystery is sauld? Yes? And and so here it goes back to the myths, you know, the different myths that happened, and how it carries on through generations or potentially can. And really all you can do is get your side of the story out there. I just want to pop this up on the screen. You know this person who's saying hi to you, Oh, that's my niece. Your niece is saying hi, Damny. Yes I told her about this evening. So all right, excellent, that's fine, fun stuff stuff. Um so, yes, that was Kecksburg. Someone roared up in the in the that it was December ninth, sixty five of nineteen sixty five. I think, yeah, I'm pretty sure it was sixty five. All right, Well, uh interesting, and what is what are some other just since we're on the SERBTCT Pennsylvania, what would you consider, like, besides Kesburg, is that really the the best known UFO sighting? As there any other extraordinary sightings that you can think of as far as UFOs are concerned. That's about it now. I because of working with Passaw, you know, we would meet once a month and talk about other sightings. There were quite a few sightings in Pennsylvania, and I had won myself in nineteen eighty nine. That was a close encounter that was you know, I have no idea what that was, but there there were a lot of There were a lot of sightings in Pennsylvania. It was rated fairly high in the you know, as far as sightings goes back in the years that I lived there. I lived left there in nineteen ninety two. But there was a place called the Chestnut Ridge right in Pennsylvania, and there were all kinds of strange events that happened along that ridge, including the object that I saw in nineteen eighty nine that had been seen in different spots other than where I saw it in Evansburg, Pennsylvania, and I drew a straight line one time from all there were three places that that object was seen, and it came out to be a you know, right along the Chestnut Ridge. Yeah, I remember that Stan talked about the Chestnut Ridge quite a bit. And but I do want to hear, since you just brought it up, I do want to hear what your UFO sighting, your encounter was. Okay, I can remember all of this. Okay, this happened in nineteen eighty nine, and I'll probably try to put it a little bit in perspective back then. I know you're an artist, and I was always involved in the arts, and I really think that's that kind of those kind of skills that artists have are important in dealing with UAP slash UFOs. I really do. And that's that's part of like my recent work what that's about. But in nineteen eighty nine, I was part of a an arts festival and it was I was the chairman of the Performing Arts Committee, and I was to go out and audition bands for the Arts Festival that happened every year and the arts festival. The Arts Festival happened in Blair County, Pennsylvania, every year. So it was my job to guaut and audition bands and then if they performed well, I would sign a contract with them for their performance at the Arts Festival. So I was heading out for to audition and band one night. It was in June. I don't have the paper in front of you, but it's like it was in June nineteen eighty nine. And what was happening was I lived at the base of the Blue Knobs Ski Resort in a you know, like a development, a housing development the base of the ski the Blue Knob Ski Resort, and my neighbor and I were going to just that night we were going to just drive out to this it was a little like road club in Ebansburg, Pennsylvania. We were going to drive out there. I was going to audition the band, and we were going to drive back to the housing development, and that's all I was going to do. So and she was just going to go up with me to kill time. And so that time I had a car, an automobile known as a Volkswagen Shroco. Oh Yes, and that car had a moon roof on it. And so we drove up there. It was a really pretty warm night and I had the moon roof open and we drove up. It was a mountainous for lane road. So we drove up. We found this little bar and the group groups. We'll call him Uptown Larry, and well that's what's his name. But so we drove up and auditioned the group, and on the way back, we're driving back in this four lane highway and I'm driving my car and I'm trying to talk to her. She's sitting next to me, and I'm trying to tell her. We're talking about the performance of the band that night, when all of a sudden, I was looking out over to her to my right, and I saw something start to move outside of the cars passenger side windshield on her side, And I kept trying to talk with her and look back to the road and I kept looking over and there was a guardrail there. It was a four lane high roup with a guardrail, and I saw something that was on the ground behind the guardrail, near the bottom of a big tree, and I could see something. It looked like it was black and it was moving and I didn't know what it was. So as we started getting closer to it, it was about thirty yards away. At that point, I started noticing, you know that whatever this thing was, it started rising up from behind the guardrail. So it started it was started coming up further and further up to under the branches of the tree that was behind the guardrail, and as it was rising up, it went from a black color to a dark gray color, to a to like an urban camouflage color that was gray and white and black, and then when it got up to right underneath the branches of the tree, it was kind of like an opaque white color. And I thought it, first of all, you know, this might be a great big bird, but what is a bird doing at this time of night. Maybe it maybe it was like a snowy owl, But what's a snowy owl doing down here? So anyhow, this object is now hovering under the branches of this tree, and it turns like a translucent gray color, and then my mind starts focusing on it, like I noticed that it's flying, but it's not flapping its wings, and I noticed that it doesn't have any feathers. It's just like a smooth skin on this object. So then it's again, I'm cutting this whole story a little bit short. But it comes floating out from underneath the branches of that tree, and it's getting closer to the road that I'm traveling on. And as it gets closer to me, it turns colors. Actually, I put my high beams on. I clicked my high beams on so I could see it better. And when I did, this thing turned a color that was like a fluorescent green watch style for a wristwatch. The thing turns is totally fluorescent green color. And when I turned on the lights and it started flying over me, I got to look undernerneath, and it wasn't a bird at all. It looked more like a mantaterray. But there were no feet underneath, there was no beak, There was no openings for the neck or the or the wings. So it looked like it was like a smooth, translucent color that was glowing green. And it came and it dive bombed my car, and when it did, the whole car because the moon roof was open, the whole car turned that fluorescent green inside. And then it dipped and it almost hit the pavement. And then it took off, like hundreds of miles an hour, and it flew off, you know, up in the sky, and it left like a trace, like a tracer bullet would leave in the sky. And it took about that whole thing probably lasted less than two minutes, well two minutes is actually quite a long time when something like that's happening. Yeah, but we had know for a while. I was watching it because it I didn't know what it was. It was behind the guardrail and then it just flew up and did that. But that wasn't the strangest part of the event. My friend and I when we that happened, we both looked at each other like what was that, you know. And once we looked at each other, like in Unison on que, we both started to hyper ventilate really really fast, okay, and so we're both like going and I got it got so bad that I had to pull off the road, you know. So I pulled off the road, you know, and it was like the shoulder of the road had just gravel on it, and you could hear the rocks hitting up underneath the car and everything. And then we both got out of the car and I put my hands on my knees and I finally got my breath, and then I just looked at her and I said, I've got to report this. So we got back in the car and I drove back to where we lived, and she went to her house and I went in and I reported it to the I think it was the past. I had a hot line, so I reported that that it was probably that's around oh, close to one o'clock in the morning that time after that, so I reported it, and a little later I got a call back from the hot line, you know, because I told them how the whole inside of the car turned green, and they said, well, maybe you should get tested at the hospital to see if you have excess radiation because some of the things that we've been investigating with UFOs like that people have been dosed with radiation. So I made an appointment later on and got the test at the hospital, but that they didn't find any excess radiation. Now you hyperventilated, you both did. Would you say that you were that there was real fear involved or how did you what was going through the feelings when you were seeing this thing? Nothing? There was no oh fear. I mean, it happened. Neither one of us expected that to happen, but neither one of at least for me, I could say there was no fear because it happened too fast, and I was too amazed at this thing flying over my car to take it in and I didn't expect to start hyper ventilating. It just happened automatically. And then that's when at the time, you know, I had been doing some research with the Penn State on esthetic experiences, and really what I had was an extremely intense esthetic experience, is what we had had from seeing that stimulating object fly over us. And that's that's I mean it was I could still remember, like it happened yesterday, that that is a very unique siting, to say the least, you know, And and I actually liked those better than the typical ones like I had, you know, the saucer shape whatever. I mean, it's just so unusual. Yeah, well this actually this same object. Okay. Then that was in June. So I went to the PASSA meeting in July and pass up put out like he put they put out like a newsletter every other month, I think it was. And Stan said to me, I've got to show you something. And here that same object was reported in May in Bolivar, Pennsylvania on the ground. Hello, I'm sorry, the same one, yes, except it was on the ground and it was glowing on the ground the same color and all the area around like it was nearer one of those rural mailboxes. And that whole that whole mailbox and everything was that same green color. And then two thousand and four, I think it was the same object was seen in West Virginia, the same exact object, except it was gray and not green. It was still in the gray phase, and it dive bombed that car too. Yeah, I mean, you're your best guess of what the heck I You know, I always tell people I don't know what they are. You know, whether an extraterrestrial, interdimensional time travel, you name it. What's your best guests on what you were looking at? If if I'd see that, if I would have, if I'd see that today, I'd probably say it was some type of experimental drone m just because it looked like a drunk It looked like a manta ray. But it was you know, it wasn't It wasn't flexible, it wasn't moving like you know, it's wings weren't flexible. But you the thing is what got me was how my brain was working on it and it was working on me. And then the whole esthetic experience like I've been have had a lot as a musician and artist, I've had a lot of esthetic experiences. That was the strongest one I've ever had in my life, and it's stuck with me ever since. Wow, that is quite amazing. I just wanted to mention this because not everybody knows this, but tomorrow we have a ninety year old gentleman, William Shatner. Can you believe it? I mean he Wow, there's no way he looks ninety. There. He's going to be up in blue horizon. He's going to be going hitting space. And I just saw this at ninety years old, and I just saw this. I love this right here, and that is we should all dress like this when William Shatner returns, and all of that are only on audio. That is plan a planet of the Ape's costume. I thought that was super funny. But good for him. I mean, you know, at ninety years old, why not try something that's really dangerous, right? You know? Yeah, I mean he's got more energy. I had someone on that portrayed him in a continuing series of Star Trek. He got to meet him and hang out with him, and this was let's say ten fifteen years ago, and he said, I didn't have the energy that William Shatner had. And this was a young guy in his like forties, so good for him wrote a motorcycle across country and most across country in his eighties. Yeah. Wow, I just keeps going. So what now, let's get back into this. And I mean, that was an incredible encounter. Thank you for sharing that, sure and also looking into see you know, I do remember someone talking about our Man Ray type craft, but I don't remember any of the details of it, but so it's not completely unheard of. And of course the green glow you hear a lot of out. I mean I had I sat next to an American Airlines pilot who when he was a fighter pilot years years ago in the military, he had a green orb come up behind him and light up his whole cockpit and follow him for miles and miles and miles. Green is another one of those strange things you hear about, you know, the green orb and just the green color, which is bizarre, another bizarre twist. But um, so let's talk about um why you contacted me that, what you got you excited about current events, etc. Well, Uh, I'm not quite as old as William Shatner as yet, but uh, there's some really exciting things going on right now. Uh, that's in the UAP. Let's say, uh, the whole you know, the whole area of UAPs. What's happening right now I find extremely exciting, not only because of my background, but also because I have had a career in education, Like I said, for you know, forty thirty some years involved in education and some of the research that I've done, and I'm a very serious researcher. I'm very aggressive and I try to look for evidence, and I consider myself a scientist. Like I started out as a musician out of need and an artist out of need, but I'm a scientist. You know. I'm sorry. I was a musician out of nature, but I'm now a scientist out of need. I just need to investigate those things. But what was happening is that recently, starting back in June, there are three events that really got my attention. Do you mind if I wrote this down? Is that okay? If I read those two? Yeah? Sure, go ahead. Yeah. And I think basically the whole idea of study studying UAP has finally turned the corner and it's really headed towards more of a scientific approach to studying UAP, and that's going to be a big jump I think for some people. And what got me thinking this is that, first of all, science describes a body of information that's usually that's gained through curiosity. So anybody that's still curious about things are is going to have to get involved in science. But without evidence, like you were saying earlier, there is no science. So all of this has got to be scientific in nature. But on June twenty five, twenty twenty one, that's when the the Office of the Director of National Intelligence that report, that nine page report on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena. That's when it was released by the Pentagon, and it was only a nine page report, but I started seeing some evidence that the government was admitting there's a category, a catch all category of things out there that day don't understand. And personally, over my years of my experience and my scientific research, I'm finding that UAPs are very complex, they are very comprehensive, they're very complex phenomenon. They're not just things that fly in the sky. So right after that release of that report, there were members of the scientific community that began to propose like scientifically taking a look for protect for evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence. And that was you know, the first time that I recall really for scientists were starting to get on the bandwagon and wagon and asking for a research to be done. So then that happened on July or June twenty fifth. On July twenty sixth, the same year, twenty twenty one, that's when Harvard University announced the Galileo Project. And the Galileo project that was at that time was being headed up by Ave Loebe and there was another co founder. I think his name was Frank. I can't think of his last name like right now, but anyhow, they claimed that on a through a YouTube video, they claimed that Harvard was going to start looking for evidence for extra terrestrial technological civilizations. So that was a project that they were kicking off, and that was in July twenty six then. I don't know, many people don't know about this, but on September fourth, I got a letter from Penn State, and that's my alma mater. But they were starting to Penn State was becoming part of a consortium that was going to start looking for answers about whether life exists beyond Earth. And so here's two top universities I think, in my opinion, the one in Penn State at Penn State has as I find out, a little more interesting than the one at Harvard because at Penn State they've got like a consortium of about thirty institutions, research institutions that they're going to use to start looking for extraterrestrial life. Once the uh, the LSSTC, you know that that telescope is start that in two years that should be open. It's the uh, I'm sorry, I'm getting a blank on the name of that telescope right now. Observatory, Reuben Observatory. So they're going to get all this ton of information and uh, they're going to start looking for evidence of life in beyond Earth and in the Penn State project has about seven million dollars that's been donated already, and they're working on this consortium and they're they're trying to get young people involved in this consortium, younger early career researchers, they call them. So those those ideas really got me, uh, you know, thinking, Well, just to pause right here for a second, because one of the people in chat made up made a good point, what about the will the James Webb Telescope play any part in this as well? Do you know I don't know if that. It's probably in These things have to be allocated so carefully because every minute they're being used is spoken for. But I mean, I just wondered if that's any part of it that you're aware of. I don't know. No. I've been in contact with Abulobe and the Harvard project, the Galileo project now as of yet, I haven't seen any mention of that, but there's not been a lot out there. Also, I've been in contact with the individuals from the Penn State Project. I haven't noticed that telescope being mentioned. They're very concerned. They want to get a lot of information in and then they're going to start looking at it's it's still very new yet because everyone's writing me back and saying we will contact you once we have more information. They're still getting a lot of these off the ground, these projects. But this has been the most exciting thing I've seen since I've been working with the UAP field now. The only other thing, but I was going to mention to you what strikes me funny, not really funny, but unique, is that I was involved in two thousand and six, I was involved with Nassau and they had a program back then it was called the Aries Directorate, and the vision for the Aries Directorate was to find life beyond Earth, and their mission was to search for life throughout the universe. So I was just thinking, you know, I thought it might be interesting to contrast what's going on now with what happened back in two thousand and six when NASA. Now, I don't know how many people knew that, but NASA did have a directorate to look for life on other planets back in two thousand and six, at least that's when I was introduced to it. Now, would this be through some type of biological signature in an atmosphere or something like that? How how would they? I mean on other planets we can just barely. We can barely almost. It's almost like a theory that these planets exist, you know, by this by the wabble of the sun that star in particular star like that, the gravitational pulls. And I'm just wondering, how would anyone look out there back in two thousand and six for for life. Well, I can get give you my story of what happened. Yeah, to me, I mean I didn't find life, but I I it was a it's a very unique story. That's why I thought it would coincide you with the recent current events that were happening. But uh, back in from two thousand and five to two thousand and seven, I was working working for the United States Department of the Interior, and I was employed by the Department of the Interior to my job was to basically turn around all aspects of education on the Navajo Nation. Hm okay. So that so that lasted from two thousand and five to two thousand and seven. So I was. I was living in a little place up on what was known as the Eastern Navajo Agency, and that place was called Berego Pass, New Mexico, and it was in a desolate area of New Mexico. So I was. I had an office there and I lived in a little kind of like a village that they called a teacher Edge. I was kind of like working there and being like the mayor of this teacher Edge. I was working for the government, you know, the federal department, you know, the United States Department of Education, and it's my job to turn the education around from They had a type of education on the Navajo reservation that was based in the Western cultures, and they found out that wasn't working. So it was my job to turn around the education on the Navajo Nation to be a Navajo language and culture approach to education rather than a Western culture approach. So I was up there working little office and one day the phone rang, and that was a good day because the phones were working. So the phone rang, and it was a call from Washington, DC, and on the other end of the line was He said, it was David axel Rod, the same David axel Rod is now working for CNN. And he said, you know, is this doctor Gross and so forth? And I said yes, And he went on to tell me that he was notifying me. I thought it was in trouble. First of all, he said he was notifying me that I had to attend a he called it a summit meeting in Texas. It was in Houston, Texas. And he said the summit meeting was going to be held at the Johnson Space Center. And that's all he would say other than he said that I had to bring two of my best and brightest Navajo teachers, two teachers that were Navajo and that we're teaching on the reservation. How to bring two of those teachers with me? Down to this meeting at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas, and that was it. Other than you know, he said that the government was going to pick up all of the expenses. So again I'm shrinking the story up. The day we were supposed to leave for the meeting meetings to start, we drove out from the reservation to the Albuquerque Airport, and from the Albuquerque we flew to Houston, and then at the airport, a van picked us up and took us to our hotel. And we got out and went into the hotel, and I found out that there were about i'd say between twenty and thirty other people at that hotel. All of those people were going to this same summit meeting with us at the Johnson Space Center, and none of us knew why we none of us knew what that meeting was about. None of us. So the next morning we get up and I think I'd estimate there was around thirty of us from different I was representing then I'm not Navajo, but I was representing the Navajo people, then Apaho tribe. I had brought two Navajos with me. Other people were representing other tribes like the Sioux and the Apache and so forth. So there were several different tries being represented there at that hotel that was going to go out to the summit meeting with us. So anyhow, the next morning it rained really hard and it flooded. In fact, in the parking lot where the hotel was, there was water up to the windows in the cars, you know. So we waded to the water to go down, and then a charter bus came and it picked us up, all of us, you know, from that hotel. Everybody got out and got in the bus, and there was a man from the Johnson Space Center, representing the Johnson Space Center. He was already on the bus. So I said to him, you know what's this meeting all about, because none of us knew, and he said, you'll find out when you get there. So they drive us out to the Johnson Space Center and they stop at the gate and there's a man that comes out. He was like in a little guardhouse type of thing. At the gate. He comes out and he knocks on the bus door and then he opens The bus driver opens up the door and he said, I'm sorry, we're closed to the public until one o'clock. I'm thinking, what you know, I thought first of all, thought was because of the rain they got flooded. And the guy on the bus from representing the you know, the space group, said what wait a minute, he said, what's what's going on here? And the guard says, well, there's going to be a group of people come up with very special people for a meeting, and we're shutting down the space center because we don't want anyone to know about what this meeting is about. And the guy and the bus said, guy, this, that's us. We're that group of people. So they finally they let us into the Johnson Space Center and we get off the bus and we go into this one building, big building, and there is a meeting room. They take all of us into the meeting room, we sit down where the alien people there. Pretty soon about i'd say twelve to fifteen people from Nasau came in. They were administrators and scientists and so forth, and some of them wearing the Nassau like lap coat with a badge on it. So that's we get in there and they start giving us an introduction as to why in the world were there, because none of us, none of us knew what this was all about. And they started telling us that NASA is involved with a directorate, and the directorate is called the Aries Directorate, and it's an acronym. It's spelled a r e S. It stands. It stood for astro Materials Research and Exploration Science A R e S. So that's the first we knew why we were there. But I'm thinking, why are you telling me? You know, I'm working to turn around the education on the Navajo Nation. So then they go on to tell us that the big plan for NASSAU is that they're going to fly from the Earth to the Moon. Then they're going to fly from the Moon to Mars, and when they get to Mars, they're going to excavate Mars. And now I had never heard of that before, but that's what they were going to do. They were going to mine Mars. And then they told us that the you know that they said the vision this area's program. He said, the vision for this program is that NASA will eventually find life beyond Earth. And he said our mission statement is to search for life throughout the universe. That that is quite quite amazing. And um, when they were talking about that, did anyone bring up the now we're going into break here in just one minute. But it did anyone talk about the meteor that landed on Earth that came from Mars and there was there was a potential organism found and it wasn't quite cleared up. And this is I want to say, in that eighties or maybe the nineties. Do you remember when I'm talking about Yes, and that I'm I think that was in the seventies maybe even but yeah, that I mean I know about that. I mean, they finally did find that there was some uh some type of um remains that were from Mars in that media, but we didn't talk about that. Then they talked about something even more bizarre. Well, you know, we want to do we want to tease that for when we get back from the break. Yeah, let's we can wait because we had to we they had us leave. I'll talk about that after the break. Yeah, we'll tease that for after. So right now we do have to go in the break. Um. So hanging there for those of you over at kg r A Radio, um, but for those on YouTube, I talked to Tom Warner a few months ago, and we're going to play that clip during the break. Hanging there at KGr A Radio would be right back why do you think they're here and what do you think they want? You know that that's a very good question Martin, that they're here because I believe that they've always been here. So we're kind of like an experiment, and we're like an experiment. I think that's gone bad. So the question is how do we manifest what's out there? Do we manifest it as something good? Or do we manifest it as something bad? Do we manifest it for humanity to expand itself or destroy itself? And that's that's the question to your question. And I hope that you know, more people can come together and figure this all out in a positive way. Do you think that if we started to blow ourselves to submit the reads that No, I think they're going to do it for us. I really do. I mean, look, I mean I was abducted. They could have killed me. And any of these people say they were abducted, they could have been killed. They could have been just mutilated. Like the I believe that there's good forces out there. I believe there's not just one, there's many. My contacts that came with me were positive. Do I think they're all positive out in the universe? No? To I think there's all good people on earth. Now. Well, well here's another question along those lines. As far as you know all the people that when the Berkshire incident quote unquote happened, do you think all the people have that same thought that it was more of a positive instead of a negative or do you think some people think there was some people thought it was. You know, it's how it's the problem with with these things is people want sometimes talk about things and make them negative, but were they really negative. No one really got hurt. You know, we're all put back. So to me, it was positive. And the lesson that came out of that is the lesson that I'm trying to explain to humanity, and that's that we have to take care of each other and this plant, because you're not getting off unless we take care of this plant. It's that's simple. Yeah, it's that simple. Yeah. Well, that wraps it up for our talk today. Thank you, Tom, Thank you Martin. All right, welcome back, and my guest tonight is doctor Robert Gross and we're right in the middle of an interesting discussion about the goings on and so too, do please continue to go on with what happened so Anyhow, they had you know, they had told us about how they were how NASSA was going to go from fly to the Earth, from the to the Moon, and then from the Moon to Mars, and then they were going to excavate or mind Mars. Now, I had never heard of that before. I don't know. Had you ever heard of that? No? No, I know. I know they've they've talked about like the helium three excavating that in the moon, what you know, the great energy amount that could come out of that, But I never heard about Mars excavation ever. Well, there's more here. It's it's I think it's related to what you're talking about too. So anyhow, once they told us that, they took us out and they put us back into the little buses because you know, there was nobody at the Space center since they closed it for our meeting. So they took us out to a hangar and they showed us as vehicle. It was part rocket, let's say it was. It was it was a part like a plane slash rocket slash glider, and they were already working on it and it was going to fly over Mars. They were going to fly this over Mars and survey it before they started excavating. Okay, so then they brought us back. They put us in the buses. You know, we got we got to see this thing, so knowing it was on schedule at least at least in two thousand and six. So then they they brought us back in the buses and they took us to the Mission Control Center. Now, I don't know if you've ever been to the Mission Control Center in Houston, but there's a you know, you know how they have the big control room and it has all the computer monitors. Yeah, so we took us into that room, and the International Space Station was orbiting at that time, so they you know, they just let us see what was going on. Then behind the Mission Control Center was like a peanut gallery. There was this like a wall of glass, and then behind the wall of glass was this peanut gallery, you know, with the high seats, and it was a very nice peanut gallery. You know, it was more like a kind of a planetarium or a movie theater. It wasn't just bleachers. So they took us there, all all of us representing the tribes, and pretty soon about four astronauts came out of one of the back rooms. Okay, they had a doorway and there was a back room, and they came out and they started talking with us, and they told us that that was when they told us that the Space Shuttle had flown several top secret missions that no one had ever known about. Well, the question I have and by the way, I made, I made an error. That's helium three nine hydrogen three on the moon. So let me just ask you this. If that is the case, you can't just launch the Space Shuttle without anyone knowing about it. That's what I was thinking too, I said, I thought I saw every Space Shuttle launched, you know that there was. And now here's how they did to prove it too. I mean they were serious, they didn't. They weren't climbing around. You know, they weren't going to give us prizes or anything. But when you're talking about this, didn't Did you have a non disclosure? Well? Did they? At the end? I did, Yes, they waited go ahead. How are you talking about this now? Oh? Do you remember? Okay in two thousand and eighteen when we were at the International Uh, yeah, and they asked me to be part of a handle with two astronauts. I had I had to leave. But yeah, Okayne, how at that time, in twenty eighteen, I did not have permission to talk about this. So when we were when I was on that panel, I thought maybe you were there because I started talking a little bit about this on that panel and the whole sound system went down. So I said, oh, oh, you know, they found out that I was talking about this. So then right after that, when I went back from that, I did contact people from Nassau. And now nobody that I worked with the Nassau back in two thousand and six was there anymore. But I did get permission, written permission to talk about this, especially since the aries program ended around two thousand and thirteen. Now it's it's not over yet. I mean, this is now they again, We've got like between twenty and thirty people represented represent Native American tribes there in this room behind the Mission Control Center, and these I think there were four scientists came out and I'll add a little more to it to give you an idea how they were giving us proof. Okay, they were. They were pushing this little cart. It was like a like a cart that you might have coffee on or selling donuts or something. It was a little wheeled cart, and on that cart were about six plaques, wooden plaques, and they they told us first of all about NASA flying several top secret missions with the Space Shuttle, and they said they uncovered these plaques, and they said that each plaque had on it a patch that those astronauts on those top secret shuttles wore on their uniforms. And that was the proof that they gave this that those that there were I think there were at least six plaques on that that table type of the device, you know, that that they were pushing around, and they said that there were that many. All those each plaque represented a top secret mission that Nava Navajo right the Nassau flew. Now, they didn't say where they went with those top secret missions, but they definitely said that they were done. And I just can't imagine. I can't imagine something like the Space Shuttle being launched. I mean, did they launch it from Area fifty one. I mean, you know, I know that was transported once it landed in different places, transported back to Florida, I believe, or wherever it was launched, so it's possible I could move around. But I mean, if they had an unscheduled launch of the Space Shuttle, so many people pole would still see it. You know, I can't imagine where they could possibly launch it from you unless they said look up there and they launched it over there. You know. Well, let me ask you. Is it possible that they were out on a mission and then they did something separately? See, they wouldn't. This is the whole thing. Uh, this is why you know, I'm I'm telling you this on this show. The whole time I was there, they weren't giving me a lot of answers. But I'm pretty aggressive, you know, So I was and I wasn't. You know, the Navajo tribe was one of the largest Native American tribes in the United States, and there was no way I was going to commit those people to this Arias project if it was going to be dangerous. And I made that clear to Nassau. But you know what they were when they said, I mean, they that shocked everybody in the room. I mean, I'm I'm on the Navajo reservation, which is it's it's hectic, to say the least, to live there, and I'm trying to turn around. You had a whole educational system and now they're telling me they want me to get in full with going to Mars, you know, so, and it's it's and then the stuff they're telling me isn't good because it's not over yet. I mean, okay, So they they they tell us that there were six or they didn't. They didn't say six. They just said this is how many and they looked like six plaques are on the cart. They said, this is how many top secret missions Nassau has flown. They didn't say what they were about. They didn't so say what they were Okay, So then, uh, they they were gonna move us out of the Mission Control center. They kind of left it there. So then we all go out to the parking lot in the Mission Control center and I'm really, you know, pretty upset because I you know, I don't know what's going on right now or why we're there. All of us are pretty upset. So there's a big crowd of people while in the parking lot, and I start going up to the Nassau scientists and whoever was there trying to find out more. I said, what's what's going on? And they wouldn't they wouldn't say anything, And then they started saying that Okay, here's the deal, and it wasn't any better. They said that when they go from when the current astronauts in two thousand and six, when those astronauts go from the Earth to the Moon, and then they go from the Moon to Mars, they're going to find things on Mars that they will not be able to psychologically handle. So when the astronauts get to Mars, those astronauts that get the Mars are going to run into things that they can't psychologically handle. But let me, okay, let me okay, just remember why he stopped, because I got there's more to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Well this this, uh, Richard makes a good point. Why were you being told these things? And second of all, I don't know if I want to call it the problem and I'm not saying you're lying, but the problem I have with the statement you just made is that they would have to be briefed ahead of time with the possibility of what they may be seeing, and so how could they not handle it? That's why I was there, Oh, not just me, That's why the Native Americans were there. That's well, when what he was saying, he asked, why were I was? I being told this. Why were were yeah, why were you being told these things? Okay, that's what I'm going to cover next Okay, all right, why could we could just end it here? But yeah, seriously, we'll come back. We'll come back next week. Yeah, we'll come back next week. No, no, I am might I might not be around you never know. But uh now, this is the first time I've gone through the whole story since I got approval too. But anyhow, but I had never heard of any of this before. Okay, those top secret missions and all that stuff. So We're out in this parking lot and it's gonna look like it's getting ready for a gang fight, and I'm getting ready to be in the middle of it, you know, because you know this this stuff is not laying with with me. Well, so what they started telling us, okay why we were there was that Native Americans. And I can verify this, they say Native Americans stink differently about things. When I was working on the Navajo Nation and I was in the you know this this is you know, Navajo Nation is on parts of New Mexico, parts of Arizona, Utah, and there's a little part of Colorado nobody knows about where there's a chapter house. Okay, so there's they're spread all over the place. It's right now. I think there's a h after the COVID nineteen thing. There's about four hundred thousand members. It's and Martin, it's it's a whole different world out there. They think differently. I had to know federal law, I think state law each each one of the states that they're involved in those laws. I had to know local laws. I had to know traditional Navajo law, and I had to know u fundamental Navajo law before I could even start working there. It's very complex. They don't think like us. All right. We could go on for weeks talking about just the things that happened to me on the reservation. That it weren't connected to Nassau. So what the bottom line, because you know, I was pretty huffed up about this. What I got them to tell me was that why we were there was that NASA finally realized that because Native Americans think differently, and that's mostly because they were raised and educated on a reservation, they were NASA was finding out by two thousand and six that most of their astronauts were educated and raised in the Western cultures. Meaning the European cultures and the culture of the United States. NASA felt that they had to have more types of input into the members of the astronauts, okay, so that they could solve the problems they were going to find. Now, they were just worried about Mars, I think at that time, but they said that they were going to the astronauts who were currently in two thousand and six, who were mostly predominantly immersed in the Western cultures, were not going to be able to address and handle psychologically at least the issues they were going to find on Mars. Now, that's that's all they would say to me at that point. Okay, so we're all out in this parking lot, but that's why we were there. That's the first time we found out we were there. And it wasn't you know, it was in a parking lot. It wasn't an evening an officially in a newsletter, a meeting. So we're all scrambling around. Finally the buses show up because they were going to take us to I think a cafeteria to meet with Nassau engineers and talk to issue with issues to them. So we get in the bus buses and it's those little vans like again, and I get onto a bus that's mostly just Nassau, so you can imagine how well that went over. So I finally corner this one, I think he was a scientist from Nassau, and I said, what kind of things are you expecting the astronauts to run into when they get to Mars? Because I didn't know if they had found life on Mars, you know, or if they had found out. What I was thinking is maybe they found out that the laws of physics on Mars don't aren't the same laws of physics on Earth. Because I'm thinking what could cause the astronauts not to psychologically handle being on Mars. So the one guy, I can't say that I intimidated them, but I cornered them, Okay, the one scientist, and I said, look, I'm representing one of the largest tribes in the United States. If you don't give me a concrete answer as to what kind of things they're going to face on Mars, I'm not going to get involved in the area's program. And I will not commit the Navajos. I said, they've been pushed around most of their lives. I'm not going to commit them to this project. So he finally said he said, okay, I'll give you one example, and I said, okay, one example is better than no example, so he said okay. Nassau already knew that on Mars there was a natural gas and that natural gas was extremely volatile, So I said, how volatile is it? And he said that okay, you've seen a space shuttle and I said yes. He said you've seen the space shuttle has a cargo area and I said yes. He said okay. He said, imagine making an airtight contain that's the size of that cargo area and I said okay. He said, now, if you feel that cargo area size container up with this volatile Martian gas, that amount of gas would generate enough electricity to keep New York Cities lights lit up brightly for a year and a half. And I said, yeah, that's pretty volatile. And he said, well, we need to have people who think differently about things so that we can extract the gas from the Martian soil and then transported down to Earth without something terrible happening. And that's the only example I could get him to give me or them to give me at that time. So NASA they had you end to talk about this. They had they are looking at the Native American culture and for you to bring your best and brightest of whoever it is to train them to become astronauts. Yes, I go ahead. So this project aries? Did it haven't end? When did it? Did it expire? Was there an ending to it? Or is this still something in the works. Yes, it was somewhere around two thousand and thirteen and two thou and twelve. I think they ran into some kind of difficulty with booster rockets or something. Because it was my job represented I represented the Navajo tribe. It was my job to screen and the interview and nominate the best and the brightest Navajos to NASA for their Arias program. And that's that's what I did. Only I think there were only one or two ceremonies that when I still worked there because I left in two thousand and seven. But that was my job. I had to scream them, I had to uh, you know, talk with him, look at their scores, nominate them into the Barri's program. Um. So, the only the thing that I find very strange about this is that if all indeed these things, and again I believe you're I'm not saying I don't believe any of what you're saying, But that is so difficult for me to grasp is why they would let you talk about such an incredible story and in this gas, do they have a name for it, a compound of why it's so volatile and soul full of energy? They didn't mention that to me. Now I've heard about the gas since then, and uh, but that's that's all that they mentioned. They were talking kind of in generalities, and I mean, there were a lot of other things they they showed us about how far Nassau was going with things with robots and stuff, but that was the biggest issue they I mean, it wasn't so much. I mean, it seemed to me like the gas was only one issue. And I'm I know, I've heard that those type of gases exists in other places. But they were, you know, they were they were concerned that they needed people with the culture that wasn't the Western culture, that that thought differently about things to help them solve these kind of problems because Nassau was running into problems that they could not handle with astronauts who are only immersed in the Western cultures as far as their education and upbringing with Okay, so Richard has another question, how would the Navajos think differently about handling dangerous gases? Or you say that was only a small part of this. Oh, that was only one example that he would give me. But okay, for example, the Navajos just how they approach things like getting something organized. Okay, let's say if if they had to organize a project, they have a system whereby if you're planning a major project, you face a certain direction during a certain time of the day, and that's when you do your planning. And they had they had some evidence that these kind of things helped the Navajo's plan Then when you were getting ready, you know, further on down the line, there was another place you go and you face a different direction and then do that part of planning. These kind of little nuances in the Navajo culture and other Native Americans have these same type of things are what they were looking for. Different approaches, Like the Navajo language is totally different. It has depends on what what pitch you say the word at, It depends on how you cut the word off at the end. You could have two words that have two different meanings depending on what pitch you say at and if it's like yet to hey, we'll get to hit that all depends on how you translate the word. Like they might not say that here, here's my here's a green pen. They might say, here's a pen a writing utensil. That's the color of grass. Now this again, this is only the Navajos, but Native Americans think totally differently. It's a whole different place to live on the reservation. It's amazing. And you you know, I was dealing with shaman's every day, so they wanted Nassa. I felt that they needed some other outside source of knowledge to help them solve problems that they don't even know that they're going to run into. Now again, I thought, my instinct was that maybe on Mars there are different laws of physics than we have on Earth, and that might cause them, you know, a lot of issues on how astronauts think. And they never mentioned anything about finding extraterrestrial life forms. Yeah, well, you know, I mean when you first said that at the very beginning, I was the first thing I thought of, is they may see signs of possible you know, extraterrest or life, which may you know, kind of shake the reality a little bit, which I still think is a possibility. I mean, it's still possible that, you know, mark, Mars obviously had plenty of water on it at one time, or it lost its um what's it called, the magnetosphere, um, you know it was it was probably holding in of the water and holding in an atmosphere to protect and to develop life. You know, I still think it's very possible that there could could be signs of life found on Mars, and yeah, and the life couldn't like there there were several occasions where huge objects crashed in the Earth when Earth was populated with some type of life. So in our uh you know, our the uh what's the word on our galaxy, but our solar system, there could have been parts of life on Earth that could it ended up on different planets in our solar system that grew, you know, So there's a lot of possibilities. They just need they needed some other ways of thinking about things because they felt they were limited by using people who had been just educated in the Western cultures. Now, did was there ever any point of time where you found out more information about what they were hoping to find or excavate. I mean, it was this totally like an excavation mission in your opinion? Or do you think that there was more a lot more to it? Well, I think, well, see the area's vision of the Area's mission statement. Okay, the aria's mission statement was to discover life in the universe. Excuse me, had nothing to do with mining. I see. Oh so where was the crossover to the mining part of it? Then? Was this something entirely different? I think so, because the whole Areas Directorate was around finding you know, like I said, their vision statement was to find life beyond Earth, but their mission statement was to search for life throughout the universe. So that was the big thing that Arias was all about. That's why I said there's a parallel between what was going on in two thousand and six, or even maybe earlier, because I wasn't brought in until two thousand and six, so there was a parallel between that and what's going on now. Yeah, you need to get yourself a glass of water real quick. Let me just grab a bottle, all right? Okay, So, as I mentioned earlier, we hoped to have Gary Nolan on next week. So I do want to tell the people out there that all you have to do is go on to podcast ufo dot com and over on the sidebar you'll see a mailing list. It's a once a week newsletter. You just drop your email address in there and click send or whatever it is or agree, and then a link will be sent to your email address. You just confirm that link and you'll get our once a week newsletter. Because a lot of times at the very last minute, something changes, and I will would announce any changes in who's coming up and also what the blog is that's once a week. I'm going to be opening up the lines here. And just one other thing, you know, there's Mike Adams has a in the chat is saying why excavate Mars? But this sounds like to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that if you can get a container of gas, even though it costs millions and millions and millions of dollars, maybe even billions of dollars to get back, why would that be worth it to power New York for so many months? I mean, is it really enough energy to make the cost worth it? That was beyond my pay grade. They only you know, I was there for one more day. They were The reason I was there was to get the brain power regeared to take care of the problems that they felt they would run into, at least on Mars. And knowing that, you know, I have no idea what those six top secret missions or how many there were the spatial top secret missions were or where they went. But like I said, all of us who were there, we had no idea why we were there. And when we got there, the reason we found out why is we were trying to mix the way of thinking of the Native Americans in with people who had been educated in the Western culture. And that was the biggest you know, that was the reason we were there. I mean, we weren't going to be mining or anything like that for them, but we were. They needed our best and our brightest, and that's who they wanted to work with. They had to be Native Americans who were basically brought up on the reservation. I think that is that is quite quite interesting that they would look for a cultural difference UM to handle, you know, a certain situation. And are there examples of UM astronauts Native American astronauts. I don't know. I don't well, I know that I recommended students to the program. I don't know how far they got because, like I said, I left the working with the Department of the Interior in two thousand and seven. I see, I have. I have opened the line up and we already have someone on the line, and that phone number five four seven two five four eight three. We have Stephen from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Steven. Welcome to the show. You're alive on the air. Excellent. Thank you Martin, thank you for what you do and for doctor Robert, thank you for the conversation. Question is in regards to absolutely in regards to I know that Shaman's Worldwide typically takes psychedelic drugs to enter into the spiritual realm. I think that's been fairly well documented. I don't know as that is well. I know that an archetype two of when you enter this realm and when you take psychedelics, as the UFO, occasionally pops up. I don't know if you have thoughts and maybe that's why Native Americans in particular were invited to the program or what. I'd love to hear your thoughts and thank you both. Thank you, Steve. Do you want me to see hello? I can't hear you Martin, go ahead and answer his question, Paul, Okay, Yeah. I used to hang around with the medicine man quite a bit when I was on the reservation. Very very interesting people, but they have different solutions to things now. They there were things other than UFOs or flying saucers that they would talk to me about, the medicine men, that is. And there were a lot of strange things that happened up on the reservation when I was working there. That's what I was trying to, let's say, clear up, I'm really not at liberty to discuss in detail some of the things that went on there. It was very there were odd things going on there that let's say, only the medicine men could deal with. And they definitely were shamans, now I know that they carred. The ones that I hung around with, they carried like little bags of like this fluorescent yellow powder, but I think that was more of a corn and they'd sprinkle it on me. And I never got high or anything like that from them sprinkling it on me. But there were a lot of strange things happening there. And one of my solutions was, before I left, I hired a shaman to come and bless the area where I was living and working to see if maybe that would stop some of the things that were going on. But there were strange things that were hard to explain. You want to go, let's I always love to hear about strange things. Okay, let's go into a couple of details of what was happening. Okay, well, okay, how long ago? Let's see all right. First of all, like I was hired I think in June of two thousand and five to go to work up there by a colleague of mine who was working with me in New Mexico State University. They had a team of consultants, and again my job was to turn the schools around. That's what I do. Well, let's put it that way. So I was hired in June. He committed suicide in July because he couldn't handle the things that were going on up there. Things that I would find happening up there, and I don't know exactly what they were, but like I said, oh, when i'd get up there and I first started living up there, I'd take a shower in my body would be cherry red afterwards, and I figured this wasn't quite normal. So I put another filter in my coffee pot, thinking that would take care of it. But it didn't, so I had to I had to. I went and I found out that in the water supply that they had been using there for years, it was two and a had half two and a half times the amount of uranium in the water and was allowable. Wow. So I had to shut down the whole place and replace all the pipes and the water tower and all that type of thing. There were strange things that would happen all the time, Like somebody got in one time and in the debasement and tore out all the phone wires and everything, so we were cut off from civilization. Nobody saw it wasn't picked up on our cameras things like that. So there were there was, and you had a luckily. I'm a little bit, you know, being a musician and an artist at all, you know, I'm used to the strange things. But uh, yeah, they were. There are two members of the team that I started with. One uh, committed suicide and the other one had a nervous breakdown. I was still going strong. Wow. Well, um, someone wanted to note did their decision tree mostly end up at mushrooms? I mean did they Okay, that's a good point. Uh. Some of my staff that I had working under me, they had cards that permitted them to use payote. Yeah. So uh that's cactus writer or something. I don't know. I wasn't into it at that time, but uh I didn't try to buy any that's what they Yeah, but they they actually had cards. It was legal back you know there, Uh there, there, There were all sorts of things that you you could just couldn't imagine. It's it's like, you know, turning around the Western culture. You know, one hundred and eighty two degrees. They had places up there where they were safety zones where let's say a person could commit a crime and then go there and they couldn't be prosecuted as long as they were there. And like when you were dealing with Navajo fundamental law, let's say that you stole something or injured somebody, uh that that you might negotiate a deal where they could take something of yours or they got to do something to a member of your family that was detrimental. Wow, it was. It was unique. Now getting back to your water, I don't want to stay on that too long, but it's sounds to me. You know, you hear about radon in the water, and you know, the the issues and things like that, health issues, and what were the health issues when this was in? Their water supply was bad? I mean they you mean again when I okay, when I had to shut down that it was like a little village. I had to shut it down, and uh then I had to uh they we had to replace the pipes, and I had to bring in what they call water buffaloes so the community could have water to drink. But then I ended up it was taking so much time. I had to move the whole community to another place, and it was called Grants, New Mexico. So we had to find a hotel and take the whole community and live there until they could redo the water supply. But these the people there, they were they were not physically in good shape. When I was on the reservation, I picked up the disease known as Cholostridium difficile or C DIFF. And when I left that, uh you know, when I went to the doctors and I started getting really sick and they said that yeah, it was definitely C DIFF. And I probably got it up on the reservation. I almost died but there were a lot of other people who worked with me because they had worked at the in the urim uranium minds and some earlier there. They were not in good shape. In fact, when I went to a doctor, because I couldn't go to the same doctor that the Navajos went to on the reservation, I had to go to a doctor that would treat people who were non Navajos. And I told her that I found out that. And it was then found out that that it was the Navajos that were selling us the water that they knew had the uranium in it in the long run. But I told her that I had been drinking water and using water that two and a half times the amount of uranium in it. And she said, actually, for where you're living, that's not too bad. Oh, And uh, you know, I was worried that I was going to start glowing in the dark. Yeah. Yeah, it was the health issues. I mean, you just I would always I was constantly I was highly highly trained and educated in these kind of things all the time. The government would, you know, send me to training sessions. People people would build houses on top of uranium minds, a housing development, and you'd go by and you'd see a yellow or around the basements and they would build a wooden house, but not paying it. I mean, it was just no, it was a whole different way of approaching things. Now a lot of times you hear stories about, you know, the Native American culture talking about sky people and things like that. Did you happen to get any into any of those type of discussions at the time you were there. Uh, there was always some kind of discussion. It was very interesting to me. That's why I stayed there as long as I did. It was a whole I was being introduced to things daily. Uh. They did mention a sprites. They there was one person and elder that I was hanging out with that he was getting evidence, he claimed of like they were like sprites in the water. And when when go to meetings, he'd bring like a handbook full of photographs where he was claiming he was getting better and better evidence of sprites and lights and so forth. And there would be sounds I hear at night. I have no idea what those sounds were being made. I thought a sprite was when the lightning went up. Yeah, so yes, I mean yes, and he was he was. If I'm not mistaken. I think back he was getting photographs of they looked like lights or lightning that where they were in a lake like I was considered to be a like a sacred lake, and he was showing photographs of that. Now also like I also worked in Washington, d C. Who was called the t back the Tribal Budget Advisory Committee. So when I would go to Washington, DC and lobby for the Navajos, I just go up, you know, meet with other members of tribes, and everybody has stories like that. So I mean it's like it's almost like if you believed in it, it happened. M just a reminder of the line is hoping. We have Bill standing by and that numbers eight five five four seven two five four eight three. Colin, if you have a question for our guests, I know we haven't touched for a real long time on the topic of what you came on the show to talk about. Yeah, this whole thing, if, this whole thing about the Native American culture is fascinating, and uh, I would have never dreamed that they would be singled out as a culture um for any reason like this. It's very it's very it's a very unusual story. It's very interesting. Yeah, well they weren't the I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't just the you know, the Navajos, they were all they had. There were several tribes represented at that meeting, you know, in uh the Johnson Space Center, but they were definitely the whole thing is they were running into problems that they needed additional help with ways of thinking about it. I see, So Mike wants to know, what is the most interesting story that you heard um during your time there among them? Oh, I mean that every place I would go, there'd be a different story. There was. Well, I think there was ones ones where with with people disappearing or people turning into another person, that shape shifting in a way or something. I guess it would call that. It was. It was with the company that originally hired me to go up there, with the consultants from New Mexico State. One of the ladies that worked there with in that company told me that she was she had a trailer or something and we're moving equipment in and out of the teacherage there on the reservation, and she got the trailer stock and she couldn't maneuver the trailer to get it out of the situation it was in and she said, this, uh, this young man helped her and she wanted to she got the trailer out for her, he said. She said she never saw anyone drive like that before, and she wanted to tip him, and she's he wouldn't take any money, and she said, well, at least tell me your name and I'll send you something. So he gave her his name. And then when she the next day or two, when she went to find out who this was, the person was a totally different person. That sounds that's the closest one that I could, you know, yeah, to give you that's pretty bizarre. Um. So originally, you know, when we talked about you coming on the show, you had mentioned that, um, you know, the about education when it comes to the potential for learning about the UAPs. So we only have about looks like we have eleven minutes left. It's hard to believe. But why don't you go into your thoughts on that? Okay, thank you? Yes, Like, I'm really encouraged about what's starting to happen with the UAP phenomenon, and like I've never been before and I've been through you can see a lot before. But the when in twenty and thirteen, I was asked to give a PowerPoint presentation at the San Antonio Astronomical Associations. It was the school It was the to get students interested in science. It was the school science opening. They were trying to pull people in to get used to the school science program. And they asked me to do a presentation. It was on this Astronomical Associations group, but they asked me to do the presentation on UFOs, not on astronomy. So the what I did is I put together They asked for one hour one hour long presentation on UFOs, and they asked me to do two of them, so that I do you know, I'd present it twice. And when I did that, they set up a situation for me. It was done at the the Convention Center in Far Texas, pH a r R. It was it was the far International Convention Center because it was right near the Mexican border. So I did these PowerPoint presentations and I talked about how the title of the presentation was using science to explore the unknown, and it was a presentation you have just on science. And then I brought in folded in the UFO phenomenon and what happened was they had people there. They had astronauts there, they had people from Nasau there, they had people from the National Science Foundation there, they had the people from the astronomical associations there, and my presentation was the best attended out of any to the point where the organizers of that conference asked me to give a third presentation. So and they gave me just a little, you know, a little microphone and a guitar, a amp for a sound system. So my voice was shot by the end of the day. But what I found out and there were there was like elementary students, elementary school students there, their parents were there. There were secondary school students there, there were college students there. There were people from the science museums there, there were astronauts there. Everybody you could imagine was there, and they were coming to my presentation on UFOs and how to distinguish, you know, a genuine UFO from something that's not a UFO. So at that point I realized that the cold concept of UFOs and UAPs were a very strong vehicle for education in general. So that was in two thousand and thirteen, and from that point on I started working on what's what I call an interdisciplinary approach to UFO, I'm sorry, up education. So I came up with an interdisciplinary it's I call it interdisciplinary UAP education. Now, interdisciplinary just means a discipline is an area of knowledge, like history or science. Interdisciplinary just means that you're using two or more disciplines to come up with a unique educational program. So that's what I started working on, since that's what I used to do for a living. So I started creating standards and curriculum and so forth for that kind of a program. So I put together a program that has, first of all, it has five disciplines. And the five disciplines that I use in my program are UFO or I'm sorry I keep saying UFO, UAP history, UAP Esthetics, UAP evaluation, UAP synthesis, and then UAP what are called in their independent performance based assessments, and what that would be for UAPs would be skywatches. So those are my five disciplines. Use all five of those disciplines to teach about UAPs, and it's all based on science. Now, the the most important discipline of all of those is the esthetics discipline. And I thought you, being an artist might understand, you know, how aesthetics works and things. Yeah, that was that was my number one question I was going to ask you in the list. Okay, yeah, so well let me let me just talk to since we have a few minutes, let me just talk about the aesthetics component pretty deeply, then a little deeply. My esthetics discipline has five components to it. The first component is perception, and that has to do with perceiving an object or an event with your senses. And now some scientists they used to say we had five senses. How they're finding out that we have somewhere around between twenty one and thirty three senses. So my first component of the esthetics discipline is perceiving perception. The second component is focus, because once you have realized that you have something special, like a UAP that you're looking at, you start focusing on it and your brain starts kicking in. So the third component of my interdisctionary UAP education program is cognition. And this means that once you realize you've got something special or unique on your hands, your brain starts working on it. You start working on it, it starts working on you, and this is extremely important probably as an artist you find out that this is when you start picking up the little nuances and actually levels of nuances in something. You have to be able to do that to really pick out a genuine UAP. So then the fourth component of the esthetic experience involves what's called affect and this is when you have what's known as a feeling full reaction because your brain realizes you're looking at something that's really really special. Now, those feelingful reactions or affective responses usually come in two flavors. You can either get like what I had when I saw that UFO fly over my car, when my heart started racing and hyperventilizing. Hyperventilating's that type of heart racing, heart and pulse. That's one thing that can happen once you realize you're experiencing a true UAP. The second thing that happens is you get chills that run up and down your spine and that there's a name for that. Actually, it's called free on FRII sso WIN. So, once your brain realizes you're looking at something very very special, you start having that type of experience. And then the last component of my esthetics discipline has to do with cultural environment. None of this can happen unless you're in an environment that really appreciates real UAPs. So you've got you you've got to be in an environment that values the UAP phenomenon. That's basically that that whole program puts together. And I'm already you know, finding in ways I think I think it would be very useful and since I've done this, to start putting this type of UAP education into the schools, because that might be the most reliable place to go. You can't really you know, live out with the government or the uh you know, the nonprofit UFO or study groups you may have. There's enough type of scrutiny that would happen if you tried to put it into the educational system. But it really works. HM, excellent, Well, thank you so much. It's been Well. Let me ask you this, is there a way that someone could reach out to you and you have a way for people to get in touch with you. Yeah, if they go to my website, there's a way they can get in contact with me. And it's I guess you would call it a website. It's www dot uh Bob Wenzelgross dot com, Wenzell W E. N z e L. Right, yes, yeah, all right, Well, thank you so much, Bob. It's been a real pleasure. Always fun to talk to you. Same here, all right, all right, you take care, all right everyone, so thanks for being on the road with me. We'll be back next week, hopefully with Gary Nolan. If not, it's still going to be an excellent show with the Vietnam veteran that had quite an experience one or the other. All right, take Karen. Remember to keep your eyes to the sky.