WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:04.400 However, I'm standing by right now. There's no one to me there, 2 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:14.759 Sean, the moody moody. Everybody's got a price for the million dollar man. 3 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:22.480 After you throw him off through the announced table, take her climbs back 4 00:00:22.480 --> 00:00:25.640 down, he gets in the ring and he goes see if he's breathing. 5 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:29.679 Right before I called nine one one, I thought she'd fallen asleep. Kind 6 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:32.200 of shook her a little bit to wake her up, and she did not 7 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:38.119 respond. And I'll go down to my go to my grave testifying or whatever, 8 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:42.200 swearing that Davy was not on drugs. If he was on drugs the 9 00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:46.399 way Bratt says, how does I mean? How great does that make Davy? 10 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:48.880 Are you laughing? Sean? I get off the track here all the 11 00:00:48.880 --> 00:00:51.399 time? Did you just laugh? Sean? You go ahead and chop me, 12 00:00:51.960 --> 00:00:54.159 give me a big chop. I'll sell. I'll give you my whole 13 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:57.640 chest and everything, and then I'll look at you like this, and then 14 00:00:57.679 --> 00:01:00.520 I'll punch you right in the mouth as hard as I attention. Sean. 15 00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:07.040 Come you slime you, Margot. Because there's no further questions, You're dismissed. 16 00:01:07.519 --> 00:01:12.439 Carry on, Margot. Hello everybody, and welcome to yet another edition 17 00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:15.480 of Prime Time with Sean Mooney. I hope you've all had a great week. 18 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:21.599 Thanks for tuning in once again. I know that you have many many 19 00:01:21.680 --> 00:01:26.280 choices out there, so please know how much I appreciate you listening week after 20 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:29.680 week. This has been a little rough week for me. This you can 21 00:01:29.719 --> 00:01:32.959 probably tell my voice. It's I've been a little under the weather, as 22 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:37.400 we say, but we are going to power through. You'll notice so when 23 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:41.439 I'm talking to our guest this week that you know the voice wasn't the greatest, 24 00:01:41.519 --> 00:01:44.719 but you know we got to do this week after week. We want 25 00:01:44.719 --> 00:01:49.400 to keep bringing you great content and we are coming off another great episode. 26 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:53.719 Wow. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Deborah Masselli, better known as 27 00:01:55.000 --> 00:02:00.359 Medusa or if you remember her from the WWE Alundra Blaze. What an intriguing 28 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:04.959 I think that's the best word to describe her. What an intriguing person. 29 00:02:05.000 --> 00:02:09.439 I mean amazing what she has accomplished so far in her life, because she's 30 00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:15.000 still going, She's still got a lot happening. And not only did she 31 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.240 blaze a trail for women in professional wrestling, helped put them on a path 32 00:02:19.319 --> 00:02:23.199 to equality in the business as we are seeing today. She then went on 33 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:29.159 to get involved in the monster truck circuit and became, you know, never 34 00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:31.919 having driven one of those trucks ever before. You know, you heard her 35 00:02:31.919 --> 00:02:36.759 tell the story, and if you haven't listened to that episode, please do 36 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.439 it. It's a great one. But we went on for POI over two 37 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:45.280 hours, I think, but she talks about how she's got a phone call 38 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:47.560 to come down and try out one of these trucks just to you know, 39 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:52.960 see if she would be interested, and went around the track, ran over 40 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:54.120 a couple of cars, thought that they were going to throw her out of 41 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:59.240 the arena there, and they asked her to sign on. What she did 42 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.159 for seventeen years came a two time champion, so what an amazing woman. 43 00:03:02.719 --> 00:03:07.879 Really enjoyed my conversation with Medusa, and I also hope you've been enjoying the 44 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:13.039 network classics we've been putting out. This is a new addition to the PTSM 45 00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:17.800 family. We have a new episode every single week, and this week will 46 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:22.439 be no exception. We've got the second episode of Raw, which just came 47 00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:27.240 out on Monday. In these network classics, though, we're just choosing different 48 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:30.159 episodes from the network, the WWE network, and then I do a watch 49 00:03:30.159 --> 00:03:36.080 along with you, but these I do separately, so you can listen to 50 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.199 them whatever you want. All you have to do is you queue up to 51 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:45.400 the start point and then we just go off and running. And not only 52 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:47.919 do I provide you know, commentary and what's happening on the screen. You 53 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:52.840 know, as I've said before, what's really been fun for me doing these 54 00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:57.080 is because you know, a lot of that stuff disappears from your memory, 55 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:00.800 especially when you get up in the years. You know, I'm sixty, 56 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:02.439 guys, so you know, I've forgotten a lot of things. But when 57 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:06.879 I watched these, it comes back to me, and so I never really 58 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:12.039 know what I'm going to come up with. But so far, man, 59 00:04:12.120 --> 00:04:15.600 it's it's been a blast want them because I've remembered things or i remember something 60 00:04:15.600 --> 00:04:20.600 about a certain personality what they did. So each episode is very different from 61 00:04:20.639 --> 00:04:26.120 the next. And as I mentioned, this week, we're doing the second 62 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:30.279 episode of Raw and they know, of course, that's the early beginnings of 63 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:35.759 what became or has become, you know, the longest running episodic program on 64 00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:43.000 cable television, and Vince and Randy Savage along with Rob Bartlett, are still 65 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.720 doing the commentary for these, so I had a blast doing it. I 66 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:53.120 hope you'll catch it. It's up already and you catch the episode every Monday 67 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.800 at six am Eastern Time. That's when these are put up. Alrighty, 68 00:04:56.879 --> 00:05:00.439 Let's get to the main event this week. A man who appreciated every single 69 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.360 minute. He was a part of the business of professional wrestling, and he 70 00:05:03.639 --> 00:05:08.480 did it all. Let's get to my conversation with one of the original Four 71 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:15.680 Horsemen, J J. Dillon Ding Ding Ding. Hey, folks, the 72 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:21.199 best way to describe my guest today is every man because he has done everything 73 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:25.480 in the world of professional wrestling. He's been a referee, a wrestler, 74 00:05:25.560 --> 00:05:29.199 a manager, an agent and executive, a two time Hall of Famer. 75 00:05:29.639 --> 00:05:32.360 See what I mean. He's done everything. Oh, and I should mention 76 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:38.279 he's an original member of the Four Horsemen. Welcome JJ Dillon. Hello, 77 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:43.560 JJ. Hey, Wow, that was a very nice introduction, Thank you 78 00:05:43.680 --> 00:05:46.279 very much. Sometimes covers, it barely covers. How are you kidding me? 79 00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:53.399 All? Yeah, I mean, I'm just it. I'm at this 80 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:59.199 stage of my life where I look back and and I just know that that 81 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:04.319 it's been a great career for me. But I also recognized that the reason 82 00:06:04.399 --> 00:06:10.240 I had any level of success was because I met good people along the way, 83 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:15.079 and they all embraced me and helped me. And now I sometimes pinched 84 00:06:15.120 --> 00:06:18.879 myself when I looked at that I've got two Hall of Fame rings, and 85 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:26.000 and just as a sixteen year old kid in New Jersey, I fell in 86 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:31.560 love with professional wrestling back I mean, I'm going back to ANTHONYA. Rocca 87 00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:38.439 and then you know, Buddy Rogers and Bob Morton, and just dreamed that 88 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:44.040 someday, you know, maybe that this could happen for me, and and 89 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:46.560 just good fortune along the way, and all of a sudden, like I 90 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:51.160 say, all these years later, I look back, and but I had 91 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:54.319 a lot of help along the way. I really did. It wasn't I 92 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:59.000 was never the biggest, never the best, But nobody loved the business more 93 00:06:59.040 --> 00:07:01.839 than I did and was willing to work any harder than I was. I 94 00:07:02.000 --> 00:07:05.000 was, and so I was rewarded for all of that. Well, I 95 00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:10.079 think you said so many people helped you along the way, and because I 96 00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:14.240 wanted to. You know, you were somebody who had absolute respect not just 97 00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:16.399 for the business, but for them, the people you respected, and they 98 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:20.839 returned it in kind many many times. We're you know, I want to 99 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:24.560 talk about that, and you know, the incredible wrestling career, it's just 100 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:28.839 so many different things you did. But I go back to the beginning here, 101 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:30.600 and you know, when I say what Trenton makes, the world takes 102 00:07:31.240 --> 00:07:36.199 wow, that's right on the side of the bridge acrossing the Delaware River. 103 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:42.920 Trenton's right, So you know, and I have a really good friend who 104 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.959 is from there and would often remind me of that. Now you're gonna love 105 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:48.800 this j J. Because, like I said, you were an everyman. 106 00:07:48.920 --> 00:07:54.000 But maybe I should have described you as a utility player because I know one 107 00:07:54.040 --> 00:08:00.480 of your first loves was baseball and my first job is huh still is. 108 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:05.800 But yeah, I fell in love with the Brooklyn Dodgers. And in nineteen 109 00:08:05.920 --> 00:08:13.120 fifty eight when the Dodgers uprooted and moved to California, and the Giants followed 110 00:08:13.160 --> 00:08:16.600 them, and the only ones that stayed here were the Yankees. And back 111 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:22.920 in those days, this was before the internet, it was before cable television, 112 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:26.839 of course, so I used to get up and get the morning paper 113 00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:31.480 and because of the print deadline because they were now based on the West Coast, 114 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.799 it would only have a line score to about the third inning. So 115 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:41.440 it was hard to keep up the passion that I had for my Dodgers and 116 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:46.159 and and you know, I think everything in life probably happens for a reason, 117 00:08:46.240 --> 00:08:50.919 and so that's what caused my my interests is to swing to the world 118 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:54.159 of professional wrestling, which has worked out well. And uh, but I 119 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:58.799 still have that passion for baseball. Yeah. Well, uh, and you 120 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:03.240 know, my first job was with Major League Baseball Productions. That's how I 121 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:07.320 ended up back east because I did grow up out in Arizona and just things 122 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.000 happened. That's a new long story. But I ended up back there working 123 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:16.080 for Major League Baseball Productions and had the opportunity. We used to do this 124 00:09:16.120 --> 00:09:20.879 weekend baseball and you know, I would log you know, baseball games all 125 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:24.519 day long. And you know, of course that was the big show, 126 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.879 was Mel Allen. But at the end of the year we would do highlight 127 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.639 films for all the teams. We did all twenty six at the time, 128 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.879 all those teams, and I had the great fortune to work I did four 129 00:09:39.159 --> 00:09:41.519 Dodger highlight films when I eventually became a producer. So I did four Dodger 130 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:48.519 highlight films and got to do the twenty five year history film, and so 131 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:52.080 I had the chance I got to meet all of these original Dodgers. Duke 132 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:56.600 Snyder, I know you're a fan of all these and I'm telling you that 133 00:09:56.840 --> 00:10:01.519 was such an incredible period of time in baseball history because you talk about the 134 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.720 Giants, they were there and then you had the Dodgers, and of course 135 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:07.639 they all moved lest but what a time. But I don't know if you 136 00:10:07.679 --> 00:10:11.480 ever had the opportunity to go to any of those games when you were a 137 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:18.919 kid. But I just my parents took me because I used to watch the 138 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:24.360 Dodgers on Channel nine out of New York and happy felt it's not whole gang. 139 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:31.559 And I think my parents everything that I've been involved in, whether it 140 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:35.759 was wrestling or the love for the Dodgers before, my parents probably thought, 141 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.919 well, you know, I'll my taste will change, I'll outgrow. But 142 00:10:39.960 --> 00:10:45.919 they never did, and I had a chance to go. Like I say, 143 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:48.879 they took me one time to Ebbittsfield, and I don't I just remember 144 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.320 sitting behind the up in the section behind the dug out on the third base 145 00:10:54.360 --> 00:11:01.240 side, and I have this memory of Warren Spawn with that big nose and 146 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:05.000 that high kick warming up in the bullpen. And that's the only recollection I 147 00:11:05.039 --> 00:11:09.279 have of that day. But I say, I went to one game in 148 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:16.799 ebbitts Field, and then the other thing was my wife, my my we're 149 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:22.720 now divorced, but my third wife gave me a present of a week for 150 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:28.480 Dodger Fantasy can really. Yeah, So Gloria down to Florida and so again 151 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:35.519 Duke Duke Snyder was my idol. And so now I'm in the batting cage 152 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:39.519 and there's Duke Snyder, you know, leaning against the thing, you know, 153 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:46.279 critiquing my and it's like I had to just step out and pinch myself 154 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:52.399 that here's my childhood, childhood idol standing here. And um god it was 155 00:11:52.480 --> 00:11:56.720 Carl Erskine was there, who was Clem Lebine. A lot of the old 156 00:11:56.759 --> 00:12:01.320 time Dodgers and UH. And what may their fantasy camp different from all the 157 00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:07.840 others was that you actually lived in Dodgertown in Very Beach and the Uh they 158 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:13.039 had like two to a room, and the Phillies had one, and some 159 00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:16.240 of the other teams had him, but they would house you in a hotel 160 00:12:16.559 --> 00:12:20.759 and you would go to the practice ground, but the one in Very Beach 161 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.960 were the Dodgers. Uh. You you had your meals and everything there and 162 00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:31.120 it was uh, it was an incredible experience for me. Yeah, and 163 00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:35.559 just amazing because I uh we would go down and cover spring training and god, 164 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:39.320 uh, you know, Sandy Kofax is there. But anyway, I 165 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.600 get off track here, but I just love everyone's while I run into somebody 166 00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:50.720 that could appreciate h that history and uh, the last last day was the 167 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:54.919 last day. Uh. The thing ended like on a Wednesday, and so 168 00:12:54.960 --> 00:13:01.679 we went to to a local restaurant. Uh, My wife and my kids 169 00:13:01.679 --> 00:13:07.559 were real young. Uh stayed in a hotel because you actually lived in uh 170 00:13:07.639 --> 00:13:11.399 you know, you know house where the players were housed and the court family. 171 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.200 And so the last night we went to a restaurant from for dinner and 172 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:20.320 as we're walking in the front door for dinner, the door opens and outstamps 173 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:26.279 Sandy Kofax leaving. And so it was like whoa wow, you know, 174 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:31.519 and Campanella was still alive. It just it's for somebody that was a Brooklyn 175 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:37.279 Dodger fan and to be able to go there. It was like a dream 176 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:39.639 come true for a kid. It really was. Yeah. And I also 177 00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:45.039 got to work on the I did a highlight film with the sixty one Yankees 178 00:13:45.320 --> 00:13:50.039 and I actually have the poster in my office here. It was a pinstripe 179 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.720 power and I we got to go around the country JJ interviewing all these guys 180 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:58.159 that run that team and were still around and oh god, it was just 181 00:13:58.360 --> 00:14:00.679 an experience. But we'll share that over a beer sometime. I'm going to 182 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:05.720 say, I'll tell you more of the stories, but I want I worked 183 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:11.039 for I worked for Vince rigmah and got to know and and met John Philippelli, 184 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:16.600 who was now the president of the S Network and became hcame good friends 185 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:20.840 with he and his wife Jenna, And um. So one time it took 186 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.519 me down to Yankee, had me go, took me to Yankee Stadium, 187 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:31.279 uh, and back in the club house and there's um, you know, 188 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.000 I can't remember what the thing was, a plate at the end of the 189 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:41.159 dugout and back you knowing this what looked to me very small, uh locker 190 00:14:41.240 --> 00:14:45.480 rooms. You know, you think, oh well, Yankees. But of 191 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:48.759 course the modern stadiums are all, you know, built different, but uh, 192 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.159 it just was a magical, magical time for me and and uh, 193 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:56.120 you know, meeting my childhood heroes. Yeah, you go to those houses 194 00:14:56.200 --> 00:15:01.440 been a Yankee stadium back then. Fenway, Yeah, so it really it 195 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.360 is quite an experience. But I want to get I want the Fenway too. 196 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:11.559 Just Greg Oliver, who who was bred Hard, introduced me to Greg 197 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:16.120 Oliver, who was at that point, I think a third base coach for 198 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.919 the Red Sox. And so when I was in Boston, he had me 199 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.559 come over, take a cab in the morning over to over to Fenway and 200 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:31.360 again I got the whole tour there and walked out on the field out to 201 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.679 the to the Green Monster where you look at it and it looked like somebody 202 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.759 had taken a ball peen hammer and just tap tap tap tap. There was 203 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:43.320 all the dents all over. And then you opened the opened the door and 204 00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:50.759 you look underneath and there's all of this scaffolding and everywhere you look, somebody 205 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.200 has taken a sharpie and signed their name. And I found an open spot, 206 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:56.960 So my signature is under there somewhere. I can't imagine that they ever 207 00:15:58.039 --> 00:16:03.799 paint over any of them and uh, just again, you know, a 208 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.919 dream come true for me. Yeah, look at us, JJ were like 209 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.879 two little kids talking to these stories. Yeah, it's the truth, man, 210 00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:14.440 I have fond memories. That's like a whole other part of my life. 211 00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:17.200 I don't know we ever, I don't know why we never chatted about 212 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:21.559 this when we worked together well at the WWF, because I would have had 213 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:23.279 a lot of great stories to tell you and I and some day we will. 214 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:26.879 We we're gonna share those. But I know, folks listening want to 215 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:32.159 hear us talk about your career along the way, because you mentioned so many 216 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:36.840 different things that you you did and you know and going through it and I'm 217 00:16:36.840 --> 00:16:40.480 looking at like in your book, it's almost like you got on a train 218 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:42.679 that and I don't want to say you wanted to get off but couldn't get 219 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:47.919 off. It just kind of went in all these different directions. These opportunities 220 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.720 came along and one was better than the next, or was the good choice 221 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:53.879 at the time. Do you feel that way? Yeah? I always went 222 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.960 I always like in it too. And this has been a story of Martin 223 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.480 life. I've been very fortunate that, like as one door seemed to close, 224 00:17:03.559 --> 00:17:07.920 behind me, and there was another door in front of me. I 225 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:12.799 would open it and there was the next opportunity. I never had a like 226 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:18.839 a downtime or a void where I was sitting around wondering what's coming next. 227 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:22.160 It just it all fell in place for me. And as I said, 228 00:17:22.200 --> 00:17:29.079 I had a lot of help along the way. And I think that the 229 00:17:29.559 --> 00:17:34.400 people that I interacted with embraced me because I was a little bit older, 230 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:40.240 I wasn't a kid, and they realized that that the passion that I had 231 00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:45.200 was genuine and I always showed respect for other people and and as a result 232 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.359 of that was what was respected and people wanted to help me. And so 233 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:55.880 as I looked back God, I met the who's who of U. I 234 00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:02.839 went to Japan and went over there with with a week early before Japan tour, 235 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:07.000 and it was one of those deals where they had a group of American 236 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:11.240 players over there that were actually in Yokohama. And I went over a week 237 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:22.119 early with the Kiyosado who handled American talent for Giant Baba and met Sadahara and 238 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:27.759 like the five hundred home run club was a big deal because the number wasn't 239 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:33.720 wasn't so many back in those days, and there was a counterpart at home 240 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:37.160 run players from Japan and they were they were all there, and it just 241 00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:42.200 was really meant a lot to me to be able to beat the great stars 242 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:48.640 from from Japanese baseball. Yeah, well that that's just another bonus along the 243 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.160 way. But where did this love really start for wrestling? Now? You 244 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:57.000 mentioned that, um as we back in that time, there wasn't the opportunity 245 00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:02.319 you could really follow baseball. And then of course your favorite team decides to 246 00:19:02.359 --> 00:19:06.960 move, you know, more than a few thousand miles away that would kind 247 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:10.240 of fill the void or was it something else that just grabbed your attention about 248 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.240 it? No, you hit it on, hit the nail on the head. 249 00:19:12.279 --> 00:19:15.720 That that was a turning point for me. I mean I always liked, 250 00:19:15.400 --> 00:19:22.000 I really liked baseball. Uh. You know, everybody dreams of being 251 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.680 a major leaguer and I knew that I didn't have the skill level to ever 252 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.400 do that, But that didn't mean I didn't love playing playing the game. 253 00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:37.079 Uh, and so it and living in being from New Jersey and then especially 254 00:19:37.119 --> 00:19:44.319 when I was working for Vince Ringman, uh and met John Philippelli and you 255 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:51.119 know, just you know, It's funny like baseball wrestling, a lot of 256 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:56.680 wrestling fans are huge baseball fans, and when you interact with baseball players, 257 00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:03.359 most of them are huge wrestling fans. So it just, um, it 258 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.920 had a natural connection, right, you know, right from the very beginning. 259 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:12.880 And that's amazing because you know you mentioned that. And I'll just tell 260 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.920 you a quick story. I keep coming back to baseball. But one of 261 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:18.920 my first highlight films I ever did, I did for the Twins, the 262 00:20:18.920 --> 00:20:23.680 Minnesota Twins, and I remember that I went there and I was I was 263 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.440 so you know, I was just this green kid. I didn't know what 264 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:29.519 the hell I was doing with these shoots or anything, and I had all 265 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.519 this responsibility and I walked into the locker room and can't Herbeck if you remember, 266 00:20:33.160 --> 00:20:36.279 Yeah, it was with that team. There were these young kids and 267 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:41.039 Gary Guyetti and it was just this really young group of kids and they were 268 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:45.119 wrestling in the I mean, full blown, all out body slamming in the 269 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:51.720 locker room. So it's it's been woven into my life as well. But 270 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:57.039 I had I had the pleasure of meeting Kirby Puckett, too, huge wrestling 271 00:20:57.119 --> 00:21:02.119 fan. Yeah, and you know when I met him, it's like here 272 00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:06.559 I am in awe of you know, meeting Kirby Puckett. And he thought 273 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:10.640 it was a big deal to meet me. And and I wanted to talk 274 00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:14.400 about baseball. He wanted to talk about wrestling. That happens. That happens 275 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:17.279 a lot. Yeah, it's like rock stars. They do the same. 276 00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:21.079 The rock stars want to be wrestlers, and you know, the movie stars 277 00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:25.640 want to be wrestlers. So the world's collude. But it's all about entertainment. 278 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:29.200 That's that's what all comes down to. But I know that you're you're 279 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:33.880 one of the first stars that you really followed, and wrestling was with Johnny 280 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:37.400 Valentine, and you end up doing a fan club for him, right, 281 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:41.880 Yeah, I was sixteen years old and had a fan club for Johnny Valentine. 282 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:48.279 And I've got a picture on the wall of the basement of the armory 283 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:52.799 in Trent, New Jersey, and john was walking out and had a picture 284 00:21:52.839 --> 00:21:56.079 taken with him. And I also befriended huh, the original Zebra Kid, 285 00:21:56.119 --> 00:22:00.880 George Bolis, and he tried the world, spent a lot of time in 286 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:06.519 Europe, and he corresponded with me from all over the world, but used 287 00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:08.599 to have a thing. I don't know if they still have them, but 288 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:15.279 it's like eleven eleven by fourteen real thin paper and it was blue and you 289 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.680 could write a letter on it, and then they had all the folds and 290 00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:25.000 you would fold it up and when you ended folding it up, it would 291 00:22:25.079 --> 00:22:30.720 be an address and you would mail it and then somebody could take it. 292 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.119 And there were two places that you would slice and the whole thing would open 293 00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:38.519 up. And it was a very inexpensive way, especially with international mail. 294 00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:45.599 Really, Yeah, that's crazy that it's when we think back about how simple 295 00:22:45.640 --> 00:22:49.240 that way, you know, snail mail as they called not even though that's 296 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:56.640 not even you know now to to put imagine people putting stamps on things that 297 00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:59.319 you know, maybe with a thank you note today. But that's about it. 298 00:22:59.839 --> 00:23:06.839 But you know, you got I guess obsessed and and and we're going 299 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:10.440 in phill it you're near Philadelphia in a sense that you could you had a 300 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:14.119 lot of access to the city. Is that that's where you went most of 301 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.079 the time, right for to watch it? Yeah, I was. I 302 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:21.200 was born and raised in Trenton, which was about thirty five miles from Philly 303 00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:26.680 and about sixty five miles from New York. So television wise, we used 304 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:32.079 to get the TV stations out of Philadelphia in Trenton and the TV stations out 305 00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:33.480 of New York, so we were we used to be able to watch, 306 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:38.720 uh, the old Dodgers on Channel nine would like I say, happy Felton's 307 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:44.000 not a whole gang and watched, so that really was helpful and becoming a 308 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:48.640 huge Brooklyn Dodger fan. And then like I say, in nineteen fifty eight, 309 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:53.559 they up and moved to the West Coast, as did the Giants. 310 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:56.880 The only ones that stayed here were the Yankees, and it was you know, 311 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:02.720 like I was heartbroken because again before cable television, before the internet, 312 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:06.640 and you know, you went out and get the morning newspaper and there'd be 313 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:08.920 a just a small line score from about the third inning when they went to 314 00:24:10.400 --> 00:24:14.759 went to press, and so it was hard to keep up, you know, 315 00:24:14.920 --> 00:24:18.720 the interest. And that's when I kind of discovered, you know, 316 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.640 professional wrestling, and all my attention and most most of the focus of my 317 00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.759 attention went to to wrestling, which worked out quite well for me as well. 318 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:29.720 Yeah, but you decided to go to college and you know, not 319 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:34.039 to say that people didn't go to college back then, but there was as 320 00:24:34.079 --> 00:24:40.000 many people who went into trade jobs or you know, didn't. What made 321 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:44.079 you decide to go to college and you finished, you got a degree? 322 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:48.440 And was it always the backup plan or did you think I want to get 323 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:53.000 into the wrestling business why college? Well, I befriended the original Zebra Kid, 324 00:24:53.039 --> 00:25:02.519 George Bullis, and they used to do TV in Philadelphia at the NBC 325 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:07.680 studios in Walnut Street on a Wednesday night and they would tape it into auld 326 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.039 Air on Saturday. So I was living in I was going to college and 327 00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:17.599 Reading, and the guy who would set the ring up lived in Reading, 328 00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:21.640 and so I would drive down with him to Philly every week, and they 329 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:26.759 stored the ring in the basement of the NBC studio. He would get it 330 00:25:26.759 --> 00:25:30.559 out and I would help help him, and the ring would be it was 331 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:36.160 a scale down ring. And then the basement they had like a which was 332 00:25:36.200 --> 00:25:40.079 actually a small movie theater because there was a screen that could drop down from 333 00:25:40.160 --> 00:25:44.799 up above and the seating was kind of like a theater where the seats kind 334 00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.000 of went up as it went further to the back, but it didn't seat 335 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:52.839 all that many people, and the stage is where the ring was set up, 336 00:25:52.880 --> 00:25:57.559 and it would be set up right to the front of the just fit 337 00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:00.960 on the stage, and the front of it was almost up to the edge 338 00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:03.920 of the thing. So the guys had to know not to take a bump 339 00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:07.279 out through the ropes on that front side because it would be about another five 340 00:26:07.319 --> 00:26:12.480 foot drop to the floor. So it was down ring. It was a 341 00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:18.920 smaller ring, a little bit smaller ring ten and the announcer would sit I 342 00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:22.799 can't remember the guy's name. He was handicapped and walks with a limp, 343 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:30.039 and he would sit there at a little desk right to the side of the 344 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:36.480 ring. And Uh the other guy that would set the the ring up and 345 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:40.160 I would help him. We each wore a white T shirt. And for 346 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:44.039 the matches, he would take the jackets from one corner. I would take 347 00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:47.240 the jackets from the other. So at that time I was in college and 348 00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:52.480 it was like my my ten seconds of fame every week on TV. It 349 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:56.880 just was God, it was some great, great memories. But I, 350 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:03.319 like I said, I befriended a lot of these guys because that most of 351 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:08.559 them that were traveling the East Coast circuit lived right across the river in Paulsboro, 352 00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:12.559 New Jersey, because it was accessible to go north and south if they 353 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:18.119 were because they would go up as far as as the Tip and New eng 354 00:27:18.319 --> 00:27:21.240 went up in Maine, and then they would go down to Washington, d 355 00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:23.319 c. And they would go as far west as Pittsburgh. So in terms 356 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:27.880 of major highways and whatever, so it was it was a great place to 357 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:34.039 live and to really get to know all the stars of mad Era. And 358 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:38.319 they all came through there, yeah, at one point or another. Yeah, 359 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:44.599 pretty much, you know, because it was what was good was it 360 00:27:44.799 --> 00:27:48.119 was a lot of the other territories would have a major town, but that 361 00:27:48.119 --> 00:27:52.160 would be it. It would be a major town and then smaller towns would 362 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:57.960 fill out the circuit. But the East Coast had you know, Boston was 363 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:03.960 a major town. Province was a major town like New Hartford, New Haven. 364 00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:10.599 They were major towns, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh down to Washington. So the 365 00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:14.559 top stars in the business eventually hope to be able to get on, get 366 00:28:14.599 --> 00:28:18.000 in, get their foot in there, and come in because the earning potential 367 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:25.519 was so great because of all the major arenas in that in that area. 368 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:30.839 So did they how did they divide the territories up then. I mean we 369 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:34.799 knew that Vince Senior was there and basically ran New York, But how far 370 00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:40.000 did those territories run? Was Philadelphia different? Something else that was carved out? 371 00:28:40.039 --> 00:28:41.960 How did they do that? And then of course we know that they 372 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:47.119 would exchange talent, so how did how did it work? There were probably 373 00:28:47.240 --> 00:28:55.720 twenty five small promotions all across the country. Now by small promotions, I 374 00:28:55.759 --> 00:29:00.200 mean like Florida would have been a territory in and of itself that would that 375 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:04.519 would produce their TV. They would Aaron Tampa and they had a circuit that 376 00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:08.200 you know, it would be like Tusay was Tampa, Wednesday was Miami, 377 00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:14.119 Thursday was Jacksonville or whatever, or Tallahassee, Yeah, and then Tallahassee. 378 00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:22.839 So and these were weekly towns and so in the televisions it was produced in 379 00:29:22.920 --> 00:29:26.640 Florida and only seen in Florida, And it was only later on. I 380 00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:32.640 remember I was in Amarillo and wrestling fans always because wrestlers would come in and 381 00:29:32.680 --> 00:29:37.480 want to stay as long as they could. So I was fortunate that some 382 00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:40.799 guys, you know, five six months was their maximum. And it took 383 00:29:40.799 --> 00:29:42.279 me a little bit longer to get over, but then I could stay longer. 384 00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:47.319 And when you were having to move and change it change and get a 385 00:29:47.319 --> 00:29:52.200 new apartment and schools and everything, the moves were were and then you're having 386 00:29:52.240 --> 00:29:56.720 to re establish yourself before you stopped making you know, top money in the 387 00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:02.119 territory. So it was it was uh kind of a strange time in the 388 00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:07.839 business. And then when m Georgia Championship Presling came on out of Atlanta and 389 00:30:07.920 --> 00:30:12.079 Cable went on. I remember being in Amarillo at the time, and the 390 00:30:12.119 --> 00:30:17.759 fans in Amarillo would say to to the to the Ko's accident, Amilla, 391 00:30:17.920 --> 00:30:22.160 when are we going to see wildfire Tommy Rich and Buzz Sawyer because that's who 392 00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.720 they were seeing every week out of that Georgia TV. But they weren't in 393 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:32.519 the town. They didn't understand territories. They didn't know. They didn't understand 394 00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:37.079 that you produced the TV for your territory, and that was virtually all the 395 00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:41.559 exposure and all the interests was built around. Now they've got something else in 396 00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:45.960 there, seeing well, they never really rationalized, well, let's see this 397 00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:49.359 guy's feuding with this guy. I mean, because that's what you had to 398 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:56.319 do when you had to build up feuds and and and do finishes uh in 399 00:30:56.359 --> 00:30:59.160 the arena, to build towards the following week, and then do something on 400 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:03.000 TV that compliment. And it was that's just how the business worked. Now, 401 00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:07.920 all of a sudden, they're seeing a TV, another TV other than 402 00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:12.559 the one that's produced locally out of Georgia. And I remember the muss Saint 403 00:31:12.599 --> 00:31:15.079 the Permia, When are we going to see wildfire? Tommy Rich and buzz 404 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:21.000 Sawyer and not understanding that, well, I don't have anything to do with 405 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:22.960 them. They're doing their own TV over there, and they were running around 406 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:26.039 Georgia and they did go up as far as I think Columbus, Ohio back 407 00:31:26.079 --> 00:31:30.279 in those days. But that was the beginning of the change for television. 408 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:37.440 And that's where Vince McMahon. I tipped my hat to Vince because he realized 409 00:31:37.519 --> 00:31:45.759 the direction of and the other local promoters tried so desperately to hang on to 410 00:31:45.880 --> 00:31:51.200 what they had without realizing that they were becoming obsolete in time and that it 411 00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:56.759 was only getting worse than not better. And so Vince understood that he had 412 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:00.279 to get his TV on in these other major markets so that he could become 413 00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:05.599 and he really was the first not only national promoter, but global promoter too 414 00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:10.640 because he was going to England and going throughout Europe. Yeah, but before 415 00:32:10.759 --> 00:32:14.480 that, and the thing is, like you mentioned, I mean, it 416 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:19.559 flipped everything when cable came in and they were able to have these broader markets 417 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:22.440 and cover more of the country because prior to that, with the territories, 418 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:27.400 you had your TV, but the TV was just for that viewing area, 419 00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:30.039 and you could have a guy have a run there and let's say that might 420 00:32:30.119 --> 00:32:34.119 run eight months, and then he could go somewhere completely different. Nobody had 421 00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:37.400 seen him. These were crossing over and you would see these guys somewhere else 422 00:32:37.440 --> 00:32:40.880 and then suddenly they show up here. But you've already you know it didn't 423 00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:45.559 Things had to change, and it wasn't as though, you know, you 424 00:32:45.640 --> 00:32:47.640 give full credit to Vince and he deserves it, but it wasn't as though 425 00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:52.519 these other promoters didn't try and do the same thing. They just didn't pull 426 00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:58.440 it off because they wanted to do the same thing, and they they didn't 427 00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:04.279 want to take the risks because involved financial when you're traveling across the country and 428 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:09.000 running live shows. Then the transportation became I mean it just changes. It's 429 00:33:09.039 --> 00:33:14.519 not the simple thing that that that it once was when you had a small 430 00:33:14.680 --> 00:33:19.400 geographic area and you were doing weekly towns and you know, you could do 431 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:23.119 spot shows in high schools and all. But it just it radically, radically, 432 00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:28.039 you know, change the change the industry well, and you know the 433 00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:32.119 stories too that you know. Vince's idea with the syndication was he would go 434 00:33:32.200 --> 00:33:37.440 to these local stations and back then we had them on videotape and they would 435 00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:43.559 would be a show and they would send the thing out to air on that 436 00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:46.960 Saturday morning whatever. And he was paying that. He was paying stations to 437 00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:51.160 play. He was buying airtime. It wasn't though they were, you know, 438 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:57.359 and that almost I think he did that radically changed the business because up 439 00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.480 to that point it was a barter system another word. They would produce like 440 00:34:00.799 --> 00:34:06.799 Tampa would produce a TV and it would go to Miami and so the TV 441 00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:13.960 station in Miami would get a complete one hour program that they it was handed 442 00:34:14.000 --> 00:34:16.840 to. It would come it would come by bus on a two inch scotch 443 00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:24.280 tape and they would separately sometimes separately get there would be like six two minute 444 00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:31.480 commercial spots in an hour of television that the station got to insert the promotion 445 00:34:31.559 --> 00:34:36.440 kept two so that they would do the tooth events centers, Like if it 446 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:38.079 was in Miami, you know, they would you know, they would do 447 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.039 the hard sell for what was in the and if they didn't have a show 448 00:34:43.119 --> 00:34:45.239 in that market, they would fill it with something generic and then the other 449 00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:52.039 four spots the TV station would sell that. And that was like, so 450 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:57.159 they're getting an hour of programming U and of the of the sixth hour and 451 00:34:58.519 --> 00:35:02.360 being paid to do it because of the six uh on the six commercial spots. 452 00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:07.159 Uh, they they had four to sell advertising. And the nice part 453 00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:13.039 of it was that these shows were getting great ratings. Yeah, so you 454 00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:16.000 know, and you remember Nel, you remember you remember Nelson Swegler, Yes, 455 00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:19.719 and Wilson we had yea, I had him on the on the show 456 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:23.800 and and uh we got to talking about the same concept of how Vince was 457 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:29.800 doing this, and he uh told the story of they're all in a meeting 458 00:35:30.480 --> 00:35:35.519 and and Nelson brings up the fact he says, you know, there's these 459 00:35:35.559 --> 00:35:40.480 other spots that we can use to put in there of our own advertisers, 460 00:35:40.519 --> 00:35:43.960 and he said, Vincent, Vince said to him, we're not in the 461 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:49.000 advertising business. We're in the wrestling business. And how much has that changed? 462 00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:53.480 Well, and he was true. He was true because it would not 463 00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:59.639 have had the same impact if they had filled the all six two minute commercials 464 00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:04.280 with live events centers. Yea, if it was four of the ones that 465 00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:08.880 the station could sell the local and it was getting good ratings the wrestling show, 466 00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:14.280 So that was revenue for them that here's here's a finished product, six 467 00:36:14.360 --> 00:36:20.480 television commercial spots. They're giving you the the what to produce in the show 468 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:23.519 for two of them, and the other four you can sell the advertising and 469 00:36:23.559 --> 00:36:27.719 it's getting good ratings. So it was a win win for the TV stations 470 00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:31.559 because they got an hour show that they didn't have to do anything and could 471 00:36:31.719 --> 00:36:36.920 could sell the advertising at good rates because it got good ratings, and then 472 00:36:36.920 --> 00:36:40.519 the promotion had there was two spots to hard sell whatever the live events were 473 00:36:40.559 --> 00:36:44.559 in that market. It was a great system and a great time in the 474 00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:47.960 business. Yeah, it sure was. They would end up making a lot 475 00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:52.599 of money as advertising and being slim gym and the rest, but that's a 476 00:36:52.679 --> 00:36:59.199 that's another story. And before we get to your days at the wwwwe I 477 00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:01.920 wanted to bring up because one of your first jobs was a ref in the 478 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:07.360 ring. And I was fascinated when you talk about it, because a lot 479 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:12.880 of people don't understand how it worked back in the day. And I remember 480 00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.880 the when we used to play the Garden in both Boston and New York, 481 00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:21.440 and when we went to Philadelphia, they were really strict about not only the 482 00:37:21.559 --> 00:37:24.039 unions that would you know about the setting up rings and that kind of thing. 483 00:37:24.280 --> 00:37:34.119 But the Athletic Commission was so explained how that worked because it was you 484 00:37:34.159 --> 00:37:37.960 know, it was just a payday for these guys being able to help wrestling, 485 00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:43.159 keep kayfabe or whatever. But for them it was it was it was 486 00:37:43.199 --> 00:37:45.639 big money. So explain how that worked back then with the Athletic Commission. 487 00:37:46.119 --> 00:37:50.400 Well, yeah, you had commissions and like even in Pennsylvania, you had 488 00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:55.880 a NIST commission, uh that took care of half of the state to the 489 00:37:55.880 --> 00:38:00.320 east and in a separate commission for the western part of the state down to 490 00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:07.280 Pittsburgh. And like you say, the referees, Like in Philadelphia with the 491 00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:16.880 referees, it was a thing where the commission referees often we're not wrestling fans, 492 00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:21.679 and it was a it was a political thing. Other words, as 493 00:38:21.719 --> 00:38:25.079 a as a as a political favor. They would say to somebody, oh, 494 00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:30.079 I'll have you put on as a referee for wrestling, and you come 495 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:32.719 down there and you make a hundred bucks. Well, back in the seventies, 496 00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:37.480 one hundred bucks would be it would be a lot of money. Yeah, 497 00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:43.039 it would be somewhere between five hundred thousand dollars today. So to have 498 00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:45.639 somebody say will you come down there and you don't have to do anything, 499 00:38:45.639 --> 00:38:50.440 you just got to be able to count three. The problem was that once 500 00:38:50.679 --> 00:38:55.400 on a TV where they were having it, wanted to do something on TV 501 00:38:57.039 --> 00:39:02.360 that was controversial or two because it's a it's an it's an athletic soap opera 502 00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.840 goes on weekly and it's you know, so they had some hot finishes. 503 00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:10.920 Well, these guys that were getting paid one hundred bucks just to be there 504 00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:15.079 and count one, two, three, when it was all of a sudden 505 00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:17.360 somebody said well this is what we want to do tonight, and all of 506 00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:23.920 a sudden, their eyes would get soap out of here. Yeah. Well 507 00:39:24.119 --> 00:39:28.960 I was a wrestling fan, so for me, I didn't you know, 508 00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:34.679 the heat, I didn't care And because I had befriended the wrestlers. They 509 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:37.800 they liked me because they knew that, well, if there's a hot finish, 510 00:39:37.960 --> 00:39:39.159 he's going to do it and he's not going to be scared to death 511 00:39:39.159 --> 00:39:43.840 and he's not gonna he's not gonna turn and turn around and look when he 512 00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:50.480 shouldn't and kill the impact of the finish. And in return, they embraced 513 00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:53.280 me. And it was always like with a hot finish, they would tell 514 00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:58.840 me, you know ahead of time that it's going to be an especially you 515 00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:01.400 know talent like Philadelphia, a lot of Hispanic fans, and you know they're 516 00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:07.920 passionate, and sometimes you're worried about them storming the ring, and then you're 517 00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:12.400 also worried about getting from the ring back to the back of the arena where 518 00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:15.360 the dressing room was. And the guys used to say to me, you 519 00:40:15.400 --> 00:40:19.239 know, they knew it was hot and okay, and they would say, 520 00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:23.760 when we tell you to go, go, when you see the policeman coming 521 00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:28.480 up the aisle, when they're about halfway up the aisle, you go and 522 00:40:28.519 --> 00:40:32.880 then start and no matter how crazy it gets or how much yelling or stuff 523 00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:37.280 trash me and thrown, do not stop and do not look behind you. 524 00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:40.199 We will be behind you, and if anything, will be pushing you and 525 00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:45.320 they're coming to meet you from the other end. And all of those controversial 526 00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.840 finishes, all of those hot finishes. I think I got speared in the 527 00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:52.400 back with a chair one time that left a welt in my back. But 528 00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:57.639 other than that, they took care of me. They took care of me 529 00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:04.400 because they realized that that that I was important to the business. And the 530 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:07.079 next show where the other referees that were just commissioned referees and were there for 531 00:41:07.079 --> 00:41:09.760 the pay day didn't want to do an it, didn't want to be involved 532 00:41:09.760 --> 00:41:13.719 in anything hot, well, they were gonna help sell it either. But 533 00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:16.360 you know you mentioned police, they were like some of those like riot squads, 534 00:41:16.440 --> 00:41:19.880 right, They weren't just cops hanging out. I mean they would come 535 00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:23.639 out with the shields and but the other thing you got to remember too, 536 00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:30.039 a lot of these a lot of these shows, the cops were local people. 537 00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:34.000 They they they yes, were they were there to protect you, but 538 00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:37.519 many of them were kind of fans too, and they're watching you and you're 539 00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:43.280 doing something to basically you've incited those people deliberately. That's what you're there to 540 00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:45.920 do and now all of a sudden, you're making my job difficult because I 541 00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:50.800 got to protect you. And so it was always a balancing act and I 542 00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:54.480 always you know, made it a point. Uh you know, I safely 543 00:41:54.519 --> 00:41:57.960 got out to the back and stop and you know, give each of the 544 00:41:57.960 --> 00:42:00.199 policeman a hug and thank them for can care of me. In other words, 545 00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:05.559 it wasn't like I never took them for granted, and I genuinely appreciated 546 00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:08.079 that the that they took care of me. Yeah. And you know, 547 00:42:08.079 --> 00:42:10.960 on the other side of this, or the Athletic Commission and JJ you know 548 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.360 it well that um, you know, they set this up. It was 549 00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:21.360 it was the same way they the same procedure they did for boxing matches. 550 00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:22.440 So they would come, they'd have to have it. There would be a 551 00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.920 doctor that would have to see all the guys, and it was and I 552 00:42:25.960 --> 00:42:30.760 don't know what the cost was, I don't know what they but that went 553 00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:35.360 on for years, right, Yes, yea, for sure, and I 554 00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:37.320 think that that was part of the reason that finally events said forget it. 555 00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:43.199 I'm not you know, to keep this up as ridiculous. Yeah, they 556 00:42:43.639 --> 00:42:47.840 worked, they worked to abolish the commissions because the commissions. They were having 557 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:52.519 to pay a tax or a fee to the commissions. So the promotion looked 558 00:42:52.519 --> 00:42:59.239 at that as an expense that did nothing to enhance the show. It was 559 00:42:59.280 --> 00:43:02.599 a political thing, and if they could somehow eliminate that, that was more 560 00:43:02.679 --> 00:43:06.800 revenue to be split other ways. Yeah, and it was a pain in 561 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:09.599 the ass for all theason I remember they used have to line them up and 562 00:43:09.719 --> 00:43:14.280 it was like, what what a farce? But but anyway, I just 563 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:17.440 always was fascinated by that because you know, they ran it. It was 564 00:43:17.480 --> 00:43:21.360 just like it was you know, main event boxing, you know, and 565 00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:23.800 uh, it was like, come on, this is we're just trying to 566 00:43:23.880 --> 00:43:29.400 entertain people here. But that was part a big part of your your way 567 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:31.760 you got started though, is you were a great referee. You knew not 568 00:43:31.800 --> 00:43:36.559 to cross in front of that that hard camera. So that what happened what 569 00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:38.599 like I say, I was I went to college. I went to Albright 570 00:43:38.639 --> 00:43:43.440 College and reading in Pennsylvania, and the and the guy who set the ring 571 00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:46.719 up took it out of storage in the basement of the NBC's thing was from 572 00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:52.920 reading and so I knew him. So every Wednesday I would then ride with 573 00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:59.519 him down down early in the day to uh to Philly. He would get 574 00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:01.239 the ring out and set the ring up on the stage, and then, 575 00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:05.400 like I say, each of us would put on a plain T shirt and 576 00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:07.320 he would take the jacket from one corner. I would take it from the 577 00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:13.199 other. And then what happened was we went down there because we would leave 578 00:44:13.239 --> 00:44:15.559 early in the day to go down there, because of having enough time to 579 00:44:15.599 --> 00:44:19.519 get the ring out of storage and set it up and so forth. And 580 00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:23.639 they had a weather come through that we got down there kind of ahead of 581 00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:29.480 it, and we're actually in the studio ahead of the of the brunt of 582 00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:35.639 this storm hitting. Well, the storm hit really bad, and there was 583 00:44:35.840 --> 00:44:39.119 enough wrestlers that showed up to be able to put a one hour show together, 584 00:44:39.639 --> 00:44:44.199 but none of the commission referees showed up. And it was like, 585 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:45.960 oh man, we don't have any referee. What are we going to do? 586 00:44:46.039 --> 00:44:52.000 And of course everybody's eyes turned to me, and they said, well, 587 00:44:52.360 --> 00:44:54.159 okay, here gave me. They gave me a striped shirt. And 588 00:44:54.199 --> 00:44:59.079 I ended up refereeing the entire hour because I was the only one there, 589 00:44:59.119 --> 00:45:02.280 and I instincted lee from being a fan. Like I say, they didn't 590 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:06.760 have to give me any instructions. I just instinctively knew what to do, 591 00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:08.920 knew not to they and they made a pointment then whatever you do, just 592 00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:13.440 don't not walk in front of that you walk through sides of the ring. 593 00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.480 Do not walk between the hard camera there in the back of the ring. 594 00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:20.199 You don't want to see your butt. Man. And that's the only instructions 595 00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:22.760 that they really gave me. And of course the boys all took care of 596 00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:27.320 me as far as whatever the finishes were, and and I did the whole 597 00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:34.400 hour they were they forgot dude, Wow, why have you been refereeing from 598 00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:38.440 so then they allow me to get me added to the commission. And that's 599 00:45:38.480 --> 00:45:43.199 that's how it all grew. All grew from that. You know in your 600 00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:47.840 book the wrestlers are like seagulls from McMahon to McMahon. Um, and then 601 00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:52.000 you know it all makes sense. I mean, that's that's a quote I 602 00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:55.519 guess from Vince Senior. But um, he was around a lot and then 603 00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:59.920 and I think that you you meet you met him during that period of time, 604 00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:05.320 Yes, and he would eventually go get trained, so he would come, 605 00:46:05.480 --> 00:46:08.000 he would come to the big shows and once a month in Philly. 606 00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:12.280 They would either be at the Arena and forty six in Market, or they 607 00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:16.840 would be a convention hall and the Vince would come in. Vince Senior would 608 00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:21.840 come in, and I always remembered he dressed, you know, always with 609 00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:24.519 a shirt and tie and jacket and usually wore a vest. And I always 610 00:46:24.519 --> 00:46:29.719 remember that he had I don't know if they were half dollars or silver dollars, 611 00:46:29.719 --> 00:46:31.880 that he would have like five or six of them that he It was 612 00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:36.320 like a nervous habit that he would. He had a way of rolling him 613 00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:39.360 over back to front, back to front, back to front. It was 614 00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:45.800 like a nervous thing and that and I remember he was a heavy smoker. 615 00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:50.559 But I got to know him on a first name basis, and you know, 616 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:54.000 he realized that I was there to help the business. And so when 617 00:46:54.039 --> 00:47:00.639 I because it was a commission assigned deal, I wasn't assigned to every show, 618 00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:05.760 and yet I would go down to the show and be there in case 619 00:47:05.880 --> 00:47:08.760 somebody got hurt, something happened, and just because I was I was a 620 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:15.480 wrestling fan too. And invariably the payoffs were done, the guys would get 621 00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:21.559 their advances, the talent from either Arnold scoland or Angelo SAVOLDI and even if 622 00:47:21.599 --> 00:47:25.360 even when I wasn't when we refereed, we used to get one hundred dollars 623 00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:30.800 Now one hundred dollars back in those days was a lot of money. But 624 00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:37.280 I wouldn't be assigned to every show, but I would still be there and 625 00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:42.360 invariably Scoland or Angelo would come over and shake my hand and pall me a 626 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:45.440 twenty dollars bill. And Vince wanted you to have this appreciate that you were 627 00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:49.199 here just in case we need Yeah, just showing up just in case we 628 00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:52.280 needed something, and that you know, twenty bucks was back in those days, 629 00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:55.559 was probably a hundred dollars today. So we talked about this. You 630 00:47:55.719 --> 00:48:00.760 mentioned the doors opening. That was one but I guess you had in your 631 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:05.880 mind you always wanted to be a wrestler, and I think I think you 632 00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:14.039 ended up in Florida and started training with Graham. I never really trained, 633 00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:15.119 So how did you end up high Momy? Did you go there with the 634 00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:19.559 idea that I want to wrestle? How did how did you end up taking 635 00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:29.440 the stripes off and actually putting the tights on? What happened was I and 636 00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.000 when I went to I went to high school in New Jersey and then New 637 00:48:32.079 --> 00:48:37.760 Jersey. At that time, they had no amateur high school wrestling. I 638 00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:42.639 never saw an amateur wrestling match in New Jersey for the I graduated. I 639 00:48:42.760 --> 00:48:46.119 went to high school between sixty and sixty four. And when I graduated, 640 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:52.159 I went to Albright College because they had a wrestling team, and I went 641 00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:55.280 out for the wrestling team, never having even seen an amateur wrestling match. 642 00:48:55.480 --> 00:49:00.440 So it was like, you know, your first tendency when you're wrestling is 643 00:49:00.440 --> 00:49:06.079 to want to turn and reach rich around, and you learn within thirty seconds 644 00:49:06.920 --> 00:49:08.960 you're helping me. You're helping your opponent do what he's trying to do to 645 00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:13.880 you, which is to turn you on your back. So you know that's 646 00:49:13.880 --> 00:49:16.320 an no note. It's to stay on all fours and not get turned over. 647 00:49:17.159 --> 00:49:22.800 And so I learned the fun and I went back to I was befriended 648 00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:29.000 by the original Zebra kid, George Bullis, and like, and I get 649 00:49:29.000 --> 00:49:30.920 asked this question today, and I know I asked the question a lot of 650 00:49:30.960 --> 00:49:35.960 times. George, I want to be a wrestler. Can you give me 651 00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.239 any advice? And his advice to me was he said, you know wrestling 652 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:46.239 will always be here, So before you worry about that, you first need 653 00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:52.440 to get your education. And because the wrestling businesses could be very brutal, 654 00:49:52.559 --> 00:49:57.639 you're it's an athletic thing, and you're there's a possibility that you could be 655 00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:01.000 hurt on any given night and ever be able to continue your wrestling career. 656 00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:07.280 So if you have that diploma in your back pocket, that's your insurance policy. 657 00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:12.800 So get your get your get your diploma, get that education, get 658 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:16.320 that degree first, and while you're there, go out for the wrestling team 659 00:50:16.639 --> 00:50:22.800 and learn the fundamentals of amateur wrestling. Even if you don't you've never wrestled 660 00:50:22.840 --> 00:50:29.000 before, you're gonna learn and you will be a better professional because you're now 661 00:50:29.039 --> 00:50:34.559 employing leverage and things that are that are integral to amateur wrestling. That if 662 00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:37.280 you incorporate that into your style as a professional, you'll be a more proficient 663 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:43.760 professional. And he was absolutely true about that. So George Bullis had a 664 00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:47.599 very very profound effect on me, and I took his advice. I went 665 00:50:47.639 --> 00:50:52.440 to college that was not that far, one hundred miles from Trenton to go 666 00:50:52.480 --> 00:50:57.760 to Reading and they had a wrestling team, and I went out and they 667 00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:00.119 didn't have a heavy weight because it was a small school, and so I 668 00:51:00.159 --> 00:51:07.079 had to learn from from scratch, amate your experience. He was right, 669 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:10.079 really helped me be a more polished professional. People say, well, amateur, 670 00:51:10.119 --> 00:51:13.840 resident, professional and other two separate things. Yeah, they are, 671 00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:19.480 but if you can incorporate like leverage and things that they're logic, there's a 672 00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:22.400 there's a balance. There's a lot of fans sitting there who who will have 673 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:29.119 an appreciation for the fact that you don't do things that if it was a 674 00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:32.639 real fight, there are certain things that you wouldn't do, and you learn 675 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:37.719 from amateur experience what not to do because you're always trying to protect yourself. 676 00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:40.960 You're always keeping from being turned on your back and what have you, and 677 00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:45.440 it ends up making you a better professional. So George was very very right 678 00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:52.679 about that, and getting my degree was a smart thing to do, and 679 00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:55.960 I just I got good advice for good people, and then I made a 680 00:51:57.000 --> 00:52:00.880 lot of friends along the way, and so you know, I never was 681 00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:09.199 trained by anyone. And what happened was, um, I h referee on 682 00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:14.599 television and I one time there was a bad storm and nobody showed up and 683 00:52:14.599 --> 00:52:17.159 I had to referee the whole hour, and Ray Fabiani was there and said, 684 00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:22.360 boy, you're really good and we need to get you on the commission 685 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:25.000 staff, which he did. So now I'm starting to referee for them for 686 00:52:25.079 --> 00:52:30.079 the house shows. And then Willie Gilsenberg came and said, Ray, who's 687 00:52:30.119 --> 00:52:35.280 this good kid. He's really good. He said, he's a Jersey boy. 688 00:52:35.519 --> 00:52:38.559 He's he's He said, well, I got to talk to him and 689 00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:42.719 get him on the commission over. We need somebody like him. He's really 690 00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:46.599 good. He just knows instinctively where to go. So, you know, 691 00:52:46.840 --> 00:52:51.280 it just so much, so much fell in place for me. And then 692 00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:55.119 uh, to Florida. I'm trying to think, well, before I went 693 00:52:55.239 --> 00:53:00.559 there, it was like I was one day in the Justin room and it 694 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:05.719 was Eddie Farhat the Cheek came in for a series of matches that challenged Bruno 695 00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:12.400 and just sitting in the dust room making casual conversation, you know, he 696 00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:15.199 said, you're really a good referee. He had good size and everything, 697 00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:17.760 and I said, well, he said you could come work for me. 698 00:53:19.159 --> 00:53:22.239 I told him my dream was that I really wanted to be a wrestler, 699 00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:24.320 and he said, well you could come. I promote Detroit, you come 700 00:53:24.360 --> 00:53:30.159 work for me. And it was this. There was this silent pause for 701 00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:32.679 a couple of seconds as I'm trying to digest what he just said. And 702 00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:37.679 I finally said, did you mean because my parents, my father worked for 703 00:53:37.719 --> 00:53:43.960 General Motors and they closed the plant down in Trenton and he was moved to 704 00:53:44.199 --> 00:53:47.320 Detroit for the last ten years before he retired, so they lived in Detroit. 705 00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:50.960 And he said, well, I promote Detroit. You could come out 706 00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:52.960 and work for me. And I paused for a couple of seconds. You 707 00:53:53.039 --> 00:53:57.480 mean I you know? I said, you mean come and referee for you? 708 00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:59.880 He said, no, you want to wrestle, bring get your tight, 709 00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:01.079 come out and we'll put you in the ring and see what you can 710 00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:06.320 do. And that's how it started. I worked My first TV match was 711 00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:09.280 in Dayton, Ohio. It was a tag match against the Hell's Angels, 712 00:54:09.760 --> 00:54:15.239 and then the next and then Saturday, excuse me, Saturday, I was 713 00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:19.320 supposed to be off, and then Sunday they did TV's up in Waldlake, 714 00:54:19.400 --> 00:54:23.079 Michigan. So there was a guy named Johnny Carr from Springfield, Ohio who 715 00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:28.159 was in the Dayton that night, and so, what are you doing tomorrow, 716 00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:30.960 and I said, I'm off tomorrow, but I'm working TV Sundy so 717 00:54:31.079 --> 00:54:35.559 well, we have a car load that goes over to Pittsburgh because they need 718 00:54:35.599 --> 00:54:38.679 extras for their TV matches in Pittsburgh. And he said, you're welcome to 719 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:42.440 get in the car and come with us. I can almost guarantee you're gonna 720 00:54:42.480 --> 00:54:46.079 work. Oh hell yeah. So I went to Pittsburgh Channel eleven on top 721 00:54:46.119 --> 00:54:50.840 of it, and of course I knew Bruno, though Bruno Oftentime wasn't a 722 00:54:50.920 --> 00:54:58.119 TV it was Rudy Miller and and Ace Freeman that took care of business. 723 00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:01.920 So I went over there and uh, that's how I got my my foot 724 00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:06.679 in the door over there. And then when I saw Bruno him he really 725 00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:09.840 yeah, he said, oh yeah, you know, and then he wanted 726 00:55:09.880 --> 00:55:13.519 to do everything that. When I first went over there, I said, 727 00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:16.320 well, I you know, I'm I know Bruno, and of course you 728 00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:21.719 know Ace Freeman is yeah, yeah, we've heard that story before. And 729 00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:23.920 I didn't, you know, I didn't, And I wrote Brunoi letter and 730 00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:30.360 he had been in Italy and so I never I didn't know he was in 731 00:55:30.360 --> 00:55:32.400 Italy, and I didn't get a re sponsor here back from him. And 732 00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:37.039 then they had a big show at the Civic Arena in Pittsburgh. So I 733 00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:44.559 went down to the show and um, I went to the to the back 734 00:55:44.599 --> 00:55:47.800 thing, and I asked to see Hace Freeman. And Ace came out and 735 00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:54.159 I said, I wrote Brunoi letter didn't hear from him, but I hear 736 00:55:54.199 --> 00:55:57.760 he's here tonight, and I'd like to be able to say he loo to 737 00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:01.159 him. I could just stay here, so okay. All of a sudden, 738 00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:04.880 the door opens about thirty seconds later, and he's waving me, come 739 00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:07.440 on, come on, come on, come on, and I go inside 740 00:56:07.599 --> 00:56:10.760 and Bruno embraced me like I was his long lost brother that he hadn't seen 741 00:56:10.800 --> 00:56:16.880 for ten years. And and he then looked and Ace Freeman is like, 742 00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:22.480 heard my story, but he's heard that story a hundred times from and but 743 00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:29.800 now his eyes are like, like, what you know, brun Bruno does 744 00:56:29.960 --> 00:56:32.480 know you, and he's excited to see you. And then he looks at 745 00:56:32.880 --> 00:56:38.440 Atu, looks at at what's same, and he said, I want him 746 00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:44.320 working this weekend. And he said, if you have to add a match, 747 00:56:45.039 --> 00:56:47.480 put him on the match. And and Ace Freeman is looking it's like, 748 00:56:47.719 --> 00:56:52.800 uh, yes, sir, and so I they would run three times 749 00:56:52.800 --> 00:56:57.239 a week. They would run Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And so I 750 00:56:57.280 --> 00:57:01.239 worked there for everyegin for a year, and then I was going over to 751 00:57:01.480 --> 00:57:06.280 Detroit and the Sheek put me on all his big shows and then I'd work 752 00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:08.519 as TV two. So I was getting in ring experience. And that's where 753 00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:13.679 I met Jim Grabmeyer who was from Springfield, Ohio. He would work every 754 00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:20.679 summer for Crockett in the Carolinas because they would increase their roster because they ran 755 00:57:20.760 --> 00:57:22.800 like a lot of outdoor shows and what have you. And so when he 756 00:57:22.840 --> 00:57:28.840 came home, he know, I got to know him, and he summer 757 00:57:29.000 --> 00:57:32.760 started. He goes to Charlotte and he two days later, I get a 758 00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:37.880 phone call and he said, I'm down here in Charlotte and he said there, 759 00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:40.840 but I had been a heel and he said they're they're hurting for talent. 760 00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:43.760 And I said, well, I got this guy. I had your 761 00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:49.440 picture. So they looked at it and they said, just based on my 762 00:57:49.519 --> 00:57:52.599 recommendation, he said, they'll book you sight un the scene and this is 763 00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:57.719 like on a Friday night, and he said you could be here Monday and 764 00:57:57.840 --> 00:58:01.719 start Monday and I'm thinking, huh, and I've got a job. And 765 00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:06.639 it's like and I had an old beat up Chevy, and I had never 766 00:58:06.679 --> 00:58:10.760 been below Richmond, Virginia, and Charlotte seemed like another planet. And they're 767 00:58:10.760 --> 00:58:15.400 saying, if you're here Monday in Charlotte, and I said, and of 768 00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:17.159 course, you know. All I said was, well, yeah, I'll 769 00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:19.880 be there. And I'm thinking, how am I going to get there? 770 00:58:19.920 --> 00:58:25.239 I've never been that far and so and then I remember I was afraid to 771 00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:30.719 burn a bridge there where I was working. So I gave the people and 772 00:58:30.159 --> 00:58:35.679 that I was working for like a letter. I put it under the station 773 00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:39.199 manager's door or the thing, and gave him like two weeks notice, and 774 00:58:39.639 --> 00:58:43.880 knowing that I wasn't going to be there into for two weeks, I was 775 00:58:43.920 --> 00:58:46.480 going to be in Charlotte on that Monday, and I drove through to Charlotte. 776 00:58:46.840 --> 00:58:51.440 You could stay at the y MCA in Charlotte for fifteen dollars a night, 777 00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:53.920 and it was right up the street front on Eastmorehead Street, from where 778 00:58:54.159 --> 00:58:59.079 Jim Crockett Senior had his office. And I went to Park Center on that 779 00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:12.000 Monday night and drawing a blank Anderson the original Anderson, and they booked me 780 00:59:12.039 --> 00:59:15.880 with him, and it was like the first match and they said, you 781 00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:20.599 know, six seven minutes and you go over Yester or whatever. And I 782 00:59:20.719 --> 00:59:22.840 go out there and it was a twenty minute time in the match and all 783 00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:25.760 of a sudden, I'm here in seventeen minutes, eighteen minutes, only two 784 00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:30.880 minutes left, and the referee saying, what are you doing it? And 785 00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:37.800 so you know, when they went into a finish and Gen Anderson then sent 786 00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:42.440 word when the match was over, he's The referee came over to me and 787 00:59:42.440 --> 00:59:45.119 he said, well, I know you're only supposed to go six to eight 788 00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:50.039 minutes, but he said, jeanecause sense that that you had talent and he 789 00:59:50.079 --> 00:59:52.960 wanted to keep you out there and just seeing more and more what you were 790 00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:55.440 capable of doing. And the time live it almost ran out. So he 791 00:59:55.519 --> 01:00:00.639 said, you have passed the test. When Blank colors my friend and and 792 01:00:00.920 --> 01:00:07.880 so I ended up I stayed there for over two years and I just I 793 01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:10.360 like, I say, I sound like a Burger record, but I just 794 01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:15.320 I've been so lucky Jay that I don't think a lot of people realize is 795 01:00:15.360 --> 01:00:20.920 that you did have uh, you know, a pretty impressive wrestling career. 796 01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:23.800 Everybody remembers he was it what you did, because I mean, you know, 797 01:00:24.679 --> 01:00:28.519 I know that you had a match at Madison Square Garden with Tito Santana 798 01:00:28.559 --> 01:00:32.199 for the Intercontinental Championship. Killer Kowalski is somebody you could go on and on 799 01:00:32.280 --> 01:00:37.280 with all these guys that you match up with it. But I don't think 800 01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:39.639 people really knew when I first when I first got booked and I went to 801 01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:44.320 Dayton and I was off Saturday, and they said, well, you know 802 01:00:44.400 --> 01:00:46.159 you could work tomorrow. We sent a carload over to Pittsburgh. So I 803 01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:51.719 went over to Pittsburgh and I worked the TV match which was my actual first 804 01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:54.719 single match, and it was Killer Kowalski. So it's a matter of pride 805 01:00:54.719 --> 01:00:58.360 for me to say, well, who'd you have your first single I actually 806 01:00:58.400 --> 01:01:00.280 had a tag match my first match, but who was your first single match 807 01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:08.519 with Yea? And as I reflect back many a night where it was like, 808 01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:13.199 at that moment, it was the closest I thought I was coming to 809 01:01:13.400 --> 01:01:16.320 dying in the ring, and not that Walter was. He was not dangerous, 810 01:01:16.719 --> 01:01:21.480 but he was perpetual motion. He would start and he would knock you 811 01:01:21.559 --> 01:01:25.880 down and then he used that stomach claw and you'd take a bump and you'd 812 01:01:25.880 --> 01:01:29.559 be sun from the bumping, and just about the time you were ready to 813 01:01:29.599 --> 01:01:35.360 take it to get some fresh oxygen in your lungs, that claw And as 814 01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:38.039 as I think back in oh God, I thought, am I going to 815 01:01:38.119 --> 01:01:43.599 survive this? And you know, he spoke very highly on me, because 816 01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:46.400 you know, but a lot of times those old timers, when they're wrestling 817 01:01:46.480 --> 01:01:52.039 somebody for an enhancement match and have no idea, you know, they're going 818 01:01:52.119 --> 01:01:54.400 to be cautious and and and so you have to, you know, earn 819 01:01:54.440 --> 01:02:00.000 their trust and it just like and I stay there two years doing that, 820 01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:05.599 and then the Chic when he would run Kobo Hall or something, I would 821 01:02:05.599 --> 01:02:07.480 call the Chic and he say, yeah, put you on the card and 822 01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:10.800 come over and you can work the TVs too. So I was working back 823 01:02:10.800 --> 01:02:15.719 and forth between Pittsburgh and doing the big shows and TV for the Chic. 824 01:02:15.840 --> 01:02:21.320 And then that's when I met Jim Grabmeyer and I was there for over a 825 01:02:21.400 --> 01:02:24.800 year. Grabmyer leaves to go to Charlotte, and all of a sudden I 826 01:02:24.800 --> 01:02:28.239 get the phone call. He said, well, I'm here in Charlotte and 827 01:02:28.199 --> 01:02:30.079 they're they're hurt for talent. I had your picture and showed it to him 828 01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:35.159 and they said, well if if if you speak at the I'm come on 829 01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:37.639 down. He starts Monday, and I did. I packed everything, and 830 01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:43.480 I thought, well, you know, you never know if another chance like 831 01:02:43.519 --> 01:02:46.159 this would come along, and it was so unexpected, so I packed everything 832 01:02:46.239 --> 01:02:50.440 I had, Like I said, never been south at Richmond, Virginia at 833 01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:52.360 that point, drove all the way through to Charlotte, stayed at the at 834 01:02:54.320 --> 01:02:58.519 the Y m c A. And and when I think I went to the 835 01:02:58.519 --> 01:03:02.280 office that day and you parked behind it was in a residential street and Crocott's 836 01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:07.039 office. You you went in the driveway and they had like an open parking 837 01:03:07.079 --> 01:03:10.519 area in the back, and then he had a stair stare, a long 838 01:03:10.639 --> 01:03:15.599 stairwell from the back of the of the building that went up three flights of 839 01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:17.880 stairs to where his office was on the on the third floor of the thing. 840 01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:24.119 And um, it just you know, they took a liking to me 841 01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:30.719 again, and Sandy Scott was there, uh, and they you know, 842 01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:32.719 they they they recognized right away that I was. I wasn't a kid, 843 01:03:32.719 --> 01:03:36.000 I was a little bit older. I was like months of my twenty eighth 844 01:03:36.000 --> 01:03:40.360 birthday and now I'm starting as a full time wrestler, like living finally living 845 01:03:40.400 --> 01:03:45.119 my dream and uh, I just never looked back from there and uh all 846 01:03:45.119 --> 01:03:49.239 that experience, uh you know, because as I said, most people remember 847 01:03:49.360 --> 01:03:52.480 your your time in front of the camera and uh being a word smith and 848 01:03:52.480 --> 01:03:58.679 and you know, just being great cutting promos and then also but you did 849 01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:00.800 at ringside, but that training, I mean you could take a bump at 850 01:04:00.840 --> 01:04:03.559 the best of them. And I always talk about that. People don't really 851 01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:10.159 appreciate what you guys could do in the ring and someone like Bobby Heen and 852 01:04:10.199 --> 01:04:16.480 he could take incredible bumps. And at what point the manager, you know, 853 01:04:16.639 --> 01:04:19.719 you say these doors open. When did that become something serious? And 854 01:04:19.719 --> 01:04:23.800 you said, you know what, maybe this is this is a good time 855 01:04:23.880 --> 01:04:27.800 to you know, to take this opportunity because I would imagine it have to 856 01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:31.920 be something big that would take you out of the ring. Yeah, I 857 01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:35.880 finally went. I finally had a chance to go to Florida, which was 858 01:04:35.920 --> 01:04:41.880 where I wanted to go and work for Eddie Graham. I heard, you 859 01:04:41.880 --> 01:04:47.719 know that he was this genius about the psychology of wrestling, and it's like 860 01:04:47.760 --> 01:04:50.519 I wanted to be under the Eddie Graham Learning Tree, so I finally was 861 01:04:50.559 --> 01:04:58.119 able to get booked. And when I went down there, the Mongolian stomper 862 01:04:58.239 --> 01:05:08.400 was there, and and he left to left Florida to go change territories to 863 01:05:08.480 --> 01:05:12.159 go to Tennessee where he had a top spot and with bearcatt Right as his 864 01:05:12.239 --> 01:05:16.239 manager, and he wasn't going got a week ten days, and all of 865 01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:23.000 a sudden I get a phone call and he's it's Archie Goldie and he said 866 01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:29.000 this thing was was a disaster. He said I should have known bearcatt Right. 867 01:05:29.039 --> 01:05:30.519 It just there was no way I was going to work out, but 868 01:05:30.559 --> 01:05:33.760 it was worth a try. And he said it's so bad that I can't 869 01:05:33.800 --> 01:05:36.639 I tried. I had to do my own promos and it just killed my 870 01:05:36.679 --> 01:05:41.599 gimmick. So he said, I can't stay in Tennessee. And he said, 871 01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:45.400 I've been on the phone. I've got a main event spot in uh 872 01:05:45.039 --> 01:05:48.599 in Dallas for Fritz van Eric where a Red Beast teen is a booker. 873 01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:53.920 And he said, but I don't have a manager. Have you ever thought 874 01:05:53.920 --> 01:05:57.760 about managing? I said, uh no, sure, hadn't. And he 875 01:05:57.800 --> 01:06:00.480 said, well, we've got a top I said, well, I'd have 876 01:06:00.519 --> 01:06:04.000 to get some. Back then, they had leisure shoots. Suits were popular, 877 01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:06.440 and I said, I'd have to spend a few bucks to get a 878 01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:12.679 couple of things so I could. And uh so I went went to Dallas 879 01:06:12.880 --> 01:06:15.679 and that was the beginning and never turned back. Yeah, and uh, 880 01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:18.639 well I've kept you an hour already and there's still so much ground to cover 881 01:06:18.719 --> 01:06:23.119 here. But um, you know, kind of fast forwarding where you would 882 01:06:24.000 --> 01:06:28.639 really start to be recognized as one of the premier wrestling managers out there, 883 01:06:28.679 --> 01:06:33.119 and uh, it's not something that's anywhere near appreciated today, but it was. 884 01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:38.880 It was a big part of selling storylines back then. And uh, 885 01:06:39.800 --> 01:06:44.280 you know when when you hooked up with Dusty later on, I mean I 886 01:06:44.320 --> 01:06:48.599 think it was an eighty four in Charlotte and you started booking as well. 887 01:06:49.880 --> 01:06:55.000 Was this uh you know kind of all coming together for you at the time. 888 01:06:57.400 --> 01:07:00.559 Well, I wanted to go to Florida to be under the Eddie Graham 889 01:07:00.639 --> 01:07:03.800 Learning Tree. And when I went to Florida, I had never met Dusty 890 01:07:03.920 --> 01:07:08.199 and he can't he'd been up I don't know where he'd been, but he 891 01:07:08.239 --> 01:07:12.599 came back to Florida and he would move in and out, and I learned 892 01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:19.679 later that that too much of Dusty was not a good thing. So Eddie 893 01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:27.280 Graham knew how to massage Dusty that if before he would would be there too 894 01:07:27.280 --> 01:07:30.800 long, that the globe would be off of it. Eddie would work with 895 01:07:30.840 --> 01:07:34.880 Instagram Senior and say I need to move Dusty out of here for a couple 896 01:07:34.920 --> 01:07:38.320 of months, and then Vince would say, great, I can bring him 897 01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:42.719 up here, and he pops the garden and the major towns and it would 898 01:07:42.760 --> 01:07:48.280 always Eddie would always approach Dusty with Dusty, mom, my good friend, 899 01:07:49.239 --> 01:07:55.119 Vince needs help and you're the only one that could help him. So it's 900 01:07:55.159 --> 01:08:00.519 like he was he knew how to massage Dusty, so that he was he 901 01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:05.079 was fulfilling what was best for Eddie in the Florida career, but doing it 902 01:08:05.119 --> 01:08:09.800 in a way that he was selling it to Dusty. That you know that 903 01:08:09.920 --> 01:08:15.039 he was doing this for Dusty because they needed him so bad. And that 904 01:08:15.440 --> 01:08:21.960 almost sounds like I don't know, but but Dusty was a good tent. 905 01:08:23.119 --> 01:08:26.720 Sometimes the great talents can be their own worst enemies. They can stay too 906 01:08:26.720 --> 01:08:31.560 long or just wear out there welcome and Eddie understood that Dusty was best when 907 01:08:31.600 --> 01:08:34.640 he would have a run, moving him out for a while and then bring 908 01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:39.760 him back and he would come back in and explode it again. And so 909 01:08:39.800 --> 01:08:45.479 that they were able to trade Dusty off between Florida and in New York. 910 01:08:45.920 --> 01:08:53.920 But going to Florida, Dusty came in and I really got to be around 911 01:08:54.000 --> 01:09:00.479 Dusty and developed a friendship with him that you know, and I still think 912 01:09:00.520 --> 01:09:05.359 about, you know, with sadness with his passing, but um, you 913 01:09:05.399 --> 01:09:11.920 know, but Michelle and Dusty became not only he became a close personal friend. 914 01:09:12.039 --> 01:09:15.239 Yeah, and there's so many people on the way that talk about how 915 01:09:15.600 --> 01:09:21.479 he helped them along in their careers. And you know there's when people getting 916 01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:26.119 those positions and they're just incredibly talented people, and then you become you have 917 01:09:26.239 --> 01:09:30.439 that booking power. Sometimes it can change, you can kind of cloud your 918 01:09:30.520 --> 01:09:33.399 judgment a little bit, and I think that there were some issues with that 919 01:09:33.520 --> 01:09:39.520 later on, but uh, it got you in along this road. I 920 01:09:39.520 --> 01:09:43.439 mean, now we're talking you're getting to the big time in a sense. 921 01:09:44.039 --> 01:09:46.399 And I think it wasn't even a with the n W a year later that 922 01:09:46.439 --> 01:09:50.520 you're you're part of the four horsemen. So at this point in your life. 923 01:09:50.600 --> 01:09:57.520 What are you realizing this or is it just like I mentioned that the 924 01:09:57.840 --> 01:10:03.800 train is rolling. Yeah. I was in Florida and I had a had 925 01:10:04.760 --> 01:10:10.960 I had worked early in my career at the in the Canadian Maritimes and actually 926 01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:14.319 got my break up there as as a as a heel and I was the 927 01:10:14.359 --> 01:10:15.840 top heel for the summer and it was the biggest year they ever had. 928 01:10:16.039 --> 01:10:20.760 And I came in and that again they had had killer Carl Croup, they 929 01:10:20.800 --> 01:10:26.399 had had Archie Goldie before that, and they were they were supported. And 930 01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:30.199 I was got to know Leo Burke because he would come for the off season 931 01:10:30.680 --> 01:10:35.000 down in the summer for the Carolinas. Because in the summer they would run 932 01:10:35.159 --> 01:10:40.079 up in the in the Maritimes. They would run hockey arenas and the ice 933 01:10:40.119 --> 01:10:42.760 would be down in the summer and that's when they would run. But in 934 01:10:42.760 --> 01:10:46.720 the winter, when they you know, played hockey, um that they would 935 01:10:46.720 --> 01:10:51.560 shut down and so they would then go to UH. He would then go 936 01:10:51.840 --> 01:10:59.680 and to UH to the Carolinas. So um, you know, they saw 937 01:10:59.760 --> 01:11:03.319 me and they said, well, actually Weaver. They kind of like they 938 01:11:03.319 --> 01:11:08.920 were friends with Weaver because they wanted to keep in Weaver was. It was 939 01:11:08.960 --> 01:11:12.920 Weaver and George Becker that were the top team, and then Johnny was like 940 01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:15.680 the booker. So you know, Leo Burke and the Beast and those guys, 941 01:11:15.840 --> 01:11:18.479 you know, wanted to keep that relationship good with Weaver. So they 942 01:11:18.479 --> 01:11:24.119 would bring Weaver up to the Maritimes like for a week at a time and 943 01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:27.520 give him star status. They would bring him in like he was this your 944 01:11:27.560 --> 01:11:30.439 great story, and he wasn't. John was a very talented guy. It 945 01:11:30.520 --> 01:11:34.840 wasn't like they were giving him something that he wasn't worthy of. And so 946 01:11:35.000 --> 01:11:40.159 one week he was supposed to go up there for a week and one of 947 01:11:40.199 --> 01:11:43.520 the guys in Charlotte got hurt. I don't remember who who it was, 948 01:11:43.760 --> 01:11:47.600 and one of the top guys, and so obviously Crockett said to Weaver, 949 01:11:47.720 --> 01:11:53.159 well, you know I need to keep you here because you weren't booked, 950 01:11:54.079 --> 01:11:57.000 but top guy got hurt, and so I need for you to take that 951 01:11:57.039 --> 01:12:00.640 now that he's supposed to go up to the Maritimes. So he calls they 952 01:12:00.680 --> 01:12:03.800 call me and they say, well, we want you to go up there 953 01:12:04.479 --> 01:12:10.039 for a week. Weaver can't go, and we know that you'll go up 954 01:12:10.079 --> 01:12:15.399 there and we just know that they're you're not going to disappoint them. And 955 01:12:15.439 --> 01:12:16.800 I said, well, how am I going to get there? And they 956 01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:19.600 said, will you come to the office and talk to mister Crockett. So 957 01:12:19.680 --> 01:12:24.840 I come to the office and I sat there crossing that big table, and 958 01:12:25.960 --> 01:12:28.359 you know, the Crocket knew the whole story. He said, I understand. 959 01:12:28.399 --> 01:12:30.960 You know that John was supposed to go up there, but so and 960 01:12:30.039 --> 01:12:34.560 so got hurt. We need to keep John here. And so John wants 961 01:12:34.560 --> 01:12:42.119 to make sure that whoever goes up there doesn't disappoint them, and so he's 962 01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:45.159 hand picked you to go. And I said, oh wow. And like 963 01:12:45.239 --> 01:12:48.680 you, I remember it was like six hundred and eighty dollars for a ticket 964 01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:54.720 round trip ticket to go up to Halifiers and I said, well yeah. 965 01:12:54.720 --> 01:12:58.119 Well, I said, well, man, I'm flattered, but I said, 966 01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:00.479 I don't have them to buy the ticket. And we said, well 967 01:13:01.039 --> 01:13:03.880 you need to get you get your ticket, you'll go up there. They'll 968 01:13:03.960 --> 01:13:09.319 reimburse you for that ticket. So Jim Crocker goes in his pocket, gets 969 01:13:09.319 --> 01:13:12.399 out of big wad of bills and he counts out I think it was six 970 01:13:12.560 --> 01:13:15.560 hundred and sixty dollars six hundred and eighty dollars or whatever hasn't ane hundred dollars 971 01:13:15.640 --> 01:13:19.439 packs tacks, and he said, you go buy your ticket. When you 972 01:13:19.479 --> 01:13:23.199 get up there, he said, they'll reimburse you, and when you come 973 01:13:23.199 --> 01:13:25.880 back, you just come in and repay me. I said, well, 974 01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:28.960 gee, thank you very much, because now that that meant that I was 975 01:13:29.000 --> 01:13:32.520 my way to get up there. And I went up there and and exceeded 976 01:13:32.520 --> 01:13:35.479 their expectations because they'd never heard of me. And then they said, oh, 977 01:13:35.560 --> 01:13:41.680 wow, we want you to come back next season. First they wanted 978 01:13:41.720 --> 01:13:45.640 me to come back as they always had a single attraction, and then Freddie 979 01:13:45.680 --> 01:13:49.840 Sweethan was from there and they would have a partner for Freddie that would be 980 01:13:49.880 --> 01:13:55.840 the Tag Champions underneath whoever the featured heel was. So they said, we 981 01:13:55.920 --> 01:13:59.479 want you to come in next year for the whole season as Freddie Sweet Hands 982 01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:01.479 Tag part. Wow, you know, and this is my first break in 983 01:14:01.479 --> 01:14:08.159 the business. And stan Stasi Act was supposed to be the top single from 984 01:14:08.199 --> 01:14:12.840 that and about it was less than two weeks, might have been ten days, 985 01:14:14.279 --> 01:14:19.920 around two weeks before Vince McMahon Senior call stan Stasi Act to give him 986 01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:27.399 a starting spot in the New York territory. Well, you know they they 987 01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:30.720 they set up there and said, well, god, we can't tell Stan 988 01:14:30.800 --> 01:14:35.399 that he can't go because we're counting on him being here. They understood the 989 01:14:35.439 --> 01:14:40.600 business to know that you couldn't hold a guy back when he's got the chance 990 01:14:40.680 --> 01:14:44.279 to go work for the for the for the big promotion up there. So 991 01:14:44.319 --> 01:14:49.479 then I think in the car, and that day I said to Leo Burker 992 01:14:49.560 --> 01:14:55.319 said, you know you've had You've had Archie Goldie, You've had Killer Carl 993 01:14:55.399 --> 01:14:59.760 Croup, You've had all these big, big monster heels up there. So 994 01:15:00.000 --> 01:15:04.399 what if you changed the formula one year? Because I'm tall, I look 995 01:15:04.479 --> 01:15:10.439 bigger in the ring than what I actually am. But I'm I'm a braggadocious 996 01:15:10.439 --> 01:15:15.279 talking heel, a chicken shit heel, totally different than everything that you've had. 997 01:15:15.319 --> 01:15:18.079 You've had the parade of monsters. And he's kind of listening, And 998 01:15:19.600 --> 01:15:21.920 so I rode with him. The next day he said, I talked to 999 01:15:21.960 --> 01:15:27.319 Rudy and I threw out you know what we talked about, and all he 1000 01:15:27.359 --> 01:15:31.359 said it was a hum and then didn't say anything more. I didn't say 1001 01:15:31.399 --> 01:15:36.920 anything more. Then the next day I'm with him again, and he says, 1002 01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:41.720 John, They said, Rudy called back, and he said the more 1003 01:15:41.800 --> 01:15:45.159 he thought about it, the more intrigued he was. The idea about gone 1004 01:15:45.239 --> 01:15:50.399 with a chicken shit wrestling heel rather than trying to find another monster. So 1005 01:15:50.439 --> 01:15:54.760 he said, you were coming in any way as a tag team partner, 1006 01:15:55.239 --> 01:15:59.880 and he said, now you know you're going to be the feature heal. 1007 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:01.880 He said, the only thing they're worried about is they wanted me to go 1008 01:16:01.960 --> 01:16:05.119 start drinking a six pack every night and try to put on ten or twenty 1009 01:16:05.119 --> 01:16:10.680 pounds, because I was like, I'm over six feet tall, but I'm 1010 01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:15.560 about you know, two twenty eight two, I wasn't two sixty so and 1011 01:16:15.760 --> 01:16:20.079 so that was my break for a top spot and went up there and it 1012 01:16:20.319 --> 01:16:26.800 ended up I had been making I spent two years in Charlotte. My first 1013 01:16:26.920 --> 01:16:30.680 year in Charlotte, I think I averaged two hundred and seventy dollars a week. 1014 01:16:30.720 --> 01:16:32.560 Now, they didn't run on Sundays, and that doesn't sound like a 1015 01:16:32.640 --> 01:16:36.720 lot of money, but you go back into the seventies, that two hundred 1016 01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:42.239 and sixty was like seven fifty. At the time. It was big, 1017 01:16:42.399 --> 01:16:46.359 much bigger money. Than anybody could work on any regular job. And I 1018 01:16:46.399 --> 01:16:50.640 went up to the KNA Maritimes. It was twenty three weeks and they had 1019 01:16:50.680 --> 01:16:55.880 their biggest season ever up there, and I averaged over a thousand dollars a 1020 01:16:55.920 --> 01:16:59.600 week for twenty three weeks, and it opened the door for me to go 1021 01:16:59.640 --> 01:17:03.199 to Rilla from there, where I was featured in because they had seen me 1022 01:17:03.319 --> 01:17:08.680 and I was I was already set to go there and told that I would. 1023 01:17:10.600 --> 01:17:15.560 I would get two tours of Japan and it just it was like a 1024 01:17:15.680 --> 01:17:25.000 momentum momentum thing, and I had met Um, I met Dorry Funk was 1025 01:17:25.000 --> 01:17:29.720 the reigning champion. So Dorry, you know, told me privately, said 1026 01:17:29.720 --> 01:17:31.840 boy. I said, you know you would do so good in Amarillo. 1027 01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:35.159 He said, but I got to be careful because I get in trouble if 1028 01:17:35.680 --> 01:17:39.840 if they think that I'm even talking to talent. And I wouldn't want you 1029 01:17:39.880 --> 01:17:43.880 to up and leave abruptly. But when you ready to make you move, 1030 01:17:44.000 --> 01:17:47.560 I can guarantee you a top spot in UH in Amarillo. And then they 1031 01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:56.600 had a big show in Greensboro and uh Dory was defending the world title and 1032 01:17:57.399 --> 01:18:00.960 Terry Funk and Dorry Senior came in on the same card for a tag match 1033 01:18:01.319 --> 01:18:05.399 under Dory Funk defending the title. So Dorry says, my brother's coming in 1034 01:18:05.680 --> 01:18:11.039 and my father's coming into Greensboro. I'd like for you to come down early 1035 01:18:11.359 --> 01:18:15.000 and come to the hotel, and I'd like to introduce you and have them 1036 01:18:15.039 --> 01:18:17.359 meet you. So I went down, got the phone call and went down 1037 01:18:17.399 --> 01:18:21.960 to Greensboro early. They went by the hotel and met Terry for the first 1038 01:18:23.000 --> 01:18:27.479 time, met Senior for the first time. And when I left there, 1039 01:18:27.479 --> 01:18:30.600 I went to the Maritimes for the summer. I got the phone call. 1040 01:18:30.039 --> 01:18:33.439 That's when Senior had died of a heart attack. So it was the only 1041 01:18:33.479 --> 01:18:38.600 time I ever saw him and met him. And they just, uh, 1042 01:18:39.159 --> 01:18:41.560 well, you're going up to the You're going up there for the summer, 1043 01:18:42.079 --> 01:18:45.880 and we're telling you right now you'll have a top spot when you're done there, 1044 01:18:46.079 --> 01:18:50.000 come to Amarillo, and we'll guarantee you that you'll have at least two 1045 01:18:50.039 --> 01:18:55.079 trips to Japan for Giant Baba. So it just was a momentum thing. 1046 01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:59.800 And uh, well, if anybody was ever wondering your career as a wrestler, 1047 01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:02.680 and uh it is, it's very rich. I mean you and you 1048 01:19:02.720 --> 01:19:09.000 were a main liner, you're a main eventor and uh but but like you 1049 01:19:09.000 --> 01:19:12.600 said, right place, right time, and a lot of these opportunities and 1050 01:19:13.279 --> 01:19:15.359 getting back to when we were, you know, talking about the the formation 1051 01:19:15.439 --> 01:19:20.600 of the Four Horsemen? Was it? What was we're going back before that. 1052 01:19:20.640 --> 01:19:28.880 I went to Florida as a wrestler and uh uh Stomper left to go 1053 01:19:28.920 --> 01:19:33.399 to Tennessee with uh with barcatt Right as his manager. Didn't work out. 1054 01:19:33.560 --> 01:19:38.359 So he calls me in Florida and I and I was the middle of the 1055 01:19:38.359 --> 01:19:41.239 court. I had, you know, I was figured in there and finally 1056 01:19:41.239 --> 01:19:45.119 happy to be there and working for Ddie Graham. And he said, the 1057 01:19:45.119 --> 01:19:46.359 thing didn't work out. I've got to leave here. I got to get 1058 01:19:46.399 --> 01:19:48.560 out, and he said. I made a couple of calls, and he 1059 01:19:48.600 --> 01:19:55.640 said, I have a main event spot in Dallas with Fritz and Red bast 1060 01:19:55.640 --> 01:19:59.079 sins a booker. But he said I need a manager. And he said, 1061 01:19:59.119 --> 01:20:00.600 have you ever thought a manager? And I said no, And he 1062 01:20:00.680 --> 01:20:04.399 said, well, I just I've heard your interviews. I worked with you, 1063 01:20:04.680 --> 01:20:09.319 and he said your interviews are unique, they're different. And he said, 1064 01:20:09.840 --> 01:20:14.039 I think as a manager that you'd be. He said, I'd love 1065 01:20:14.079 --> 01:20:16.000 to have you as a manager to go into Dallas and we'd be going in 1066 01:20:16.039 --> 01:20:18.439 with the main event spot. And I said, well, I need to 1067 01:20:18.479 --> 01:20:21.560 call him and he said nope, And so I had a starting date, 1068 01:20:23.039 --> 01:20:26.640 went in and that was the beginning. I mean I went in on top 1069 01:20:26.680 --> 01:20:33.600 with Stomper into and then what happens is Stomper Stomper, Yeah. And Stomper 1070 01:20:35.119 --> 01:20:41.600 sometimes could be his own worst enemy. He would he had trouble with depression 1071 01:20:42.319 --> 01:20:45.680 and if some little thing would trigger him where he'd say, oh, they 1072 01:20:46.479 --> 01:20:48.680 ah, they don't really have any plans for me here. I mean, 1073 01:20:48.720 --> 01:20:54.359 he would talk himself into what was a positive situation and by the time he 1074 01:20:54.399 --> 01:21:00.279 was done talking, he'd have you depressed. And it was so his safety 1075 01:21:00.399 --> 01:21:03.319 net was going back to Calgary where he was originally from, got his break 1076 01:21:03.600 --> 01:21:06.239 and all he had to do was pick up the phone and get Stew on 1077 01:21:06.279 --> 01:21:11.680 the phone, and Stu would have him booked the next day so he could 1078 01:21:11.840 --> 01:21:15.359 leave. And he was never like, well if I leave here, where 1079 01:21:15.359 --> 01:21:16.760 am I going to go? He called Stew and he had a spot. 1080 01:21:16.880 --> 01:21:23.640 So that's what happened. He wasn't happy heave he leaves. So Red tells 1081 01:21:23.640 --> 01:21:27.640 me, he said, well, Stomper just up and they said we can't 1082 01:21:27.640 --> 01:21:29.960 get a hold of him. So I said, well, I'll go buy 1083 01:21:30.000 --> 01:21:31.159 the house. And he had rented a house. I go by the house. 1084 01:21:31.199 --> 01:21:36.760 I look in the window, no furniture, nothing like I I called 1085 01:21:36.760 --> 01:21:40.199 Red, I said, Rent, I could be off here, but I 1086 01:21:40.199 --> 01:21:45.279 think he's done. I said, he's gone. Oh man, he said. 1087 01:21:45.279 --> 01:21:47.279 And they already had the best thing invested in me. And he said, 1088 01:21:47.279 --> 01:21:51.520 well, first thing we want to make clear is we're going to figure 1089 01:21:51.520 --> 01:21:57.000 out you're you know you're gonna stay, and you're figured in. And so 1090 01:21:57.159 --> 01:22:01.399 the first thing that they brought they brought in lining out of San Francisco, 1091 01:22:01.640 --> 01:22:05.680 Moondog, Maine. And so I had a whole trail of guys that I 1092 01:22:05.800 --> 01:22:10.920 managed, and there was the beginning of my my man, my managerial career 1093 01:22:11.399 --> 01:22:14.600 out of Dallas was a whole whole new thing for me. Yeah. See 1094 01:22:14.680 --> 01:22:18.279 how that's the road goes, You just keep following it. Yeah, yeah, 1095 01:22:18.439 --> 01:22:21.800 even as as you guys are out there, as the legend goes, 1096 01:22:21.840 --> 01:22:27.520 you come out for a promo with these guys and uh arn happens to say 1097 01:22:27.600 --> 01:22:32.840 something that catches on and and uh, now you got two rings. Yeah, 1098 01:22:33.239 --> 01:22:38.600 and that and that's how that how it happened that I was I was 1099 01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:44.319 in. I left and I went to going back to Florida. Left Florida. 1100 01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:50.319 Actually I was hoping to uh to some day because I again, when 1101 01:22:50.319 --> 01:22:54.399 I started full time, I was almost twenty eight years old. So I 1102 01:22:54.520 --> 01:23:00.159 knew that that my my years, you know, going in the ring were 1103 01:23:00.000 --> 01:23:03.239 we go, We're numbered, And so I knew that I had to learn 1104 01:23:03.359 --> 01:23:10.720 the television production and the whole other facets of the business, and that I 1105 01:23:10.760 --> 01:23:14.600 couldn't count on my career being able to make me a good living. And 1106 01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:19.960 so that's what I did. I watched how television was produced, how a 1107 01:23:20.000 --> 01:23:25.800 show was put together, and how everything was timed. So I became a 1108 01:23:25.840 --> 01:23:30.479 student of the game. And Dusty came back to Florida, had a little 1109 01:23:30.479 --> 01:23:34.239 bit of a run, and then I was going to go. I wanted 1110 01:23:34.279 --> 01:23:42.680 to. I had an interest back in the Canadian Maritimes of wanting to be 1111 01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:45.920 a promoter, having an interest, so they wanted me to come back up 1112 01:23:45.960 --> 01:23:50.039 there and offered me like twenty five points of the promotion for no money, 1113 01:23:50.079 --> 01:23:56.119 just me as a talent coming up there and in the meantime email Duprey, 1114 01:23:56.239 --> 01:24:01.680 who used to run without television and he never wanted to make the risk of 1115 01:24:01.680 --> 01:24:08.520 being obligated to the expense of having to run the television every week. He 1116 01:24:08.720 --> 01:24:15.000 meanwhile, had taken over where the other promoter where Rudy Kaye had the TV 1117 01:24:15.159 --> 01:24:18.960 and he kind of got his feet wet, and so I wanted to go 1118 01:24:19.000 --> 01:24:24.600 back up there, and he he Emil didn't didn't want to. He didn't 1119 01:24:24.640 --> 01:24:31.560 want to step aside. So the TV station gave the promoter up there, 1120 01:24:32.199 --> 01:24:39.720 um and they weren't going to give him the spot on the major television, 1121 01:24:39.920 --> 01:24:44.199 but it was the first year for cable television in the Maritimes, so they 1122 01:24:44.479 --> 01:24:48.640 were going to give the other the promoter that I had worked four years ago, 1123 01:24:48.640 --> 01:24:51.920 who had been the announcer, they were going to give him a one 1124 01:24:51.960 --> 01:24:58.399 hour spot on the on the infant cable network that was starting, so okay, 1125 01:24:58.720 --> 01:25:02.279 and Eddie Graham had me doing it. Gave me the full run of 1126 01:25:02.319 --> 01:25:06.119 the tape libraries and I did like six intro things that air and ahead of 1127 01:25:06.199 --> 01:25:15.000 time. But I learned a lesson that cable being in its infancy. The 1128 01:25:15.039 --> 01:25:17.880 whole thing is how many eyeballs are seeing you, And they had a great 1129 01:25:18.039 --> 01:25:21.560 spot. It was the beginning, which if it had been two years later, 1130 01:25:21.640 --> 01:25:27.279 it would have been entirely different. But it was cable television starting and 1131 01:25:27.399 --> 01:25:30.920 had a very limited audience. There weren't enough eyeballs in it. And I 1132 01:25:30.960 --> 01:25:34.640 was there a couple of weeks and the guy had given me a guarantee and 1133 01:25:34.720 --> 01:25:40.279 I and you know, he owned an ad agency, and we could see 1134 01:25:40.279 --> 01:25:44.439 that it was going nowhere because they didn't have the eyeballs for the TV. 1135 01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:48.840 And I went to him and I said, look, I can't in good 1136 01:25:48.840 --> 01:25:57.520 conscience to take your guarantee money every week if cable television is just starting. 1137 01:25:57.640 --> 01:26:00.359 If we had done this two years down the line, and it would be 1138 01:26:00.399 --> 01:26:02.439 a totally different story. And I said, I can't stay here and take 1139 01:26:02.479 --> 01:26:06.119 your money. And I said you, I don't want to see you lose 1140 01:26:06.159 --> 01:26:11.159 your house and everything that you own to try and make this when I can 1141 01:26:11.239 --> 01:26:15.239 see the writing on the wall that we were two years too soon. And 1142 01:26:15.359 --> 01:26:17.600 he thanked me. He said, there's other people that would have come up 1143 01:26:17.640 --> 01:26:21.119 here and expect me to keep paying him, And what you're saying would have 1144 01:26:23.159 --> 01:26:27.399 would have been true. So now I'm calling Dusty. I've only been I've 1145 01:26:27.439 --> 01:26:30.159 haven't even been going three months. I called Dusty and I said, well, 1146 01:26:31.000 --> 01:26:32.760 it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I was going 1147 01:26:32.800 --> 01:26:38.159 to have an ownership in the thing, but cable television is just starting to 1148 01:26:38.239 --> 01:26:43.279 Dusty says, just stop right there. He said, I have just made 1149 01:26:43.279 --> 01:26:46.319 a deal to go in and run. Jim Crockett is going to accelerate the 1150 01:26:46.359 --> 01:26:49.399 thing and he's going to run the Carolinas and he's bringing me in as the 1151 01:26:49.399 --> 01:26:54.279 booker. And he said, you're going to be with me. We're partners 1152 01:26:54.279 --> 01:26:58.600 again. And I said wow. And I said I need to call Jimmy 1153 01:26:58.600 --> 01:27:00.359 Crockett and he said, nope, your things, get in your car and 1154 01:27:00.439 --> 01:27:03.560 head for Charlotte. And he said, I will have a deal in place 1155 01:27:03.600 --> 01:27:06.880 for you. And he said you will be okay, don't worry. Said 1156 01:27:06.880 --> 01:27:12.319 all right, Jane, And that's what I did. I left and went 1157 01:27:12.359 --> 01:27:16.119 to Charlotte, and Dusty had had worked it out for a decent guarantee to 1158 01:27:16.159 --> 01:27:20.960 get me started. And that was the beginning of what ended up an incredible 1159 01:27:21.079 --> 01:27:26.640 run. And then, like you say, Arne had been down in Pensacola, 1160 01:27:26.760 --> 01:27:31.840 and he came in and he did that one interview that, uh, 1161 01:27:32.319 --> 01:27:35.960 you know, we still talk about today where he and they had put me 1162 01:27:36.000 --> 01:27:45.000 with Tully and and Oliott initially, and so Arne came in and he did 1163 01:27:45.039 --> 01:27:47.359 that thing on TV where he says, take a good look at your screen. 1164 01:27:47.760 --> 01:27:55.760 He said, never have four guys monopolized the industry as we are now. 1165 01:27:56.119 --> 01:27:59.279 He said, you'd have to look in your history books to try and 1166 01:27:59.319 --> 01:28:02.000 find some something comfortable. When he said you'd have to look at the Four 1167 01:28:02.039 --> 01:28:06.279 Horsemen and the Apocalypse and held up four fingers, it just theres a throwba 1168 01:28:06.439 --> 01:28:12.439 throwaway line because aren't always always was thinking and his interviews be different. So 1169 01:28:12.479 --> 01:28:17.000 we go to Greensborough that night and the whole first row of people were dressed 1170 01:28:17.279 --> 01:28:20.920 with shirts and ties on which I did then, and they're holding up the 1171 01:28:20.960 --> 01:28:27.479 four fingers and they're yelling horsemen and it was like a week or week to 1172 01:28:27.600 --> 01:28:31.319 two went fine. Jimmy Crockett said, what's this four horsemen crack I keep 1173 01:28:31.319 --> 01:28:38.159 hearing about. I said, I suggest that maybe you kind of embrace it, 1174 01:28:38.199 --> 01:28:42.640 because I said, it's not something it's a seed that arn't through out 1175 01:28:42.680 --> 01:28:47.359 there in that moment, and it had and had legs with the fans and 1176 01:28:47.399 --> 01:28:53.039 they're the ones running with it. They're the ones and that it's going to 1177 01:28:53.119 --> 01:28:57.720 be successful because it's their idea. And he was true, it was true, 1178 01:28:57.800 --> 01:29:00.840 and it just it took off and and that histored into a forest. 1179 01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:08.560 I mean, is it. Oh, it's amazing you look back that you 1180 01:29:08.600 --> 01:29:12.359 know as mut even today you see you know, the people, they see 1181 01:29:12.359 --> 01:29:15.479 you guys as all the four fingers. I mean, it's there's nothing really 1182 01:29:15.800 --> 01:29:18.359 in sports entertainment that you know. There's maybe a few things, but that 1183 01:29:18.520 --> 01:29:20.920 stand out more than that. All you have to do is hold up the 1184 01:29:20.920 --> 01:29:27.720 four fingers. And I'm sure and and Arne it was because Arne used to 1185 01:29:27.800 --> 01:29:30.840 really think and have tried to have different interviews, and he said, take 1186 01:29:30.840 --> 01:29:33.359 a look at these four people. He said, to draw it to try 1187 01:29:33.359 --> 01:29:41.000 and find a comparison of anything that that four people would totally dominate the industry 1188 01:29:41.000 --> 01:29:43.520 they're in. He said, you'd have to go away from wrestling and you'd 1189 01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:46.079 have to go back to four horsemen in your pod cups held up four fingers. 1190 01:29:46.119 --> 01:29:50.119 And that night in Greensborough, I remember fans are yelling horsemen and holding 1191 01:29:50.199 --> 01:29:55.279 up four fingers and from the ring, even if we couldn't hear them or 1192 01:29:55.279 --> 01:29:58.359 didn't know who he were, we would just give the four fingers signed back 1193 01:29:58.720 --> 01:30:06.039 and it just grew from there. I remember going to behind me and then 1194 01:30:06.039 --> 01:30:10.680 we did an outdoor show and there were like sixty thousand people there and I 1195 01:30:10.720 --> 01:30:13.960 remember looking up and you could just see the people holding their hands up. 1196 01:30:14.880 --> 01:30:16.560 That it became something that they were a part of. Well, and you 1197 01:30:16.600 --> 01:30:21.479 mentioned JJ that it wasn't like you guys worked together all the time, you 1198 01:30:21.520 --> 01:30:25.920 didn't have to do just when you were identified together. I think you called 1199 01:30:26.039 --> 01:30:30.399 a infection, but that you also you genuinely liked each other. I mean, 1200 01:30:30.439 --> 01:30:36.159 you hung out. So it really was the four horsemen. It was. 1201 01:30:36.239 --> 01:30:41.159 It was four guys who genuinely got along with each other. And to 1202 01:30:41.239 --> 01:30:45.680 this day, you know, you know, Arn has become my closest friend 1203 01:30:45.720 --> 01:30:48.279 in the business. And he called me the other day. We got a 1204 01:30:48.279 --> 01:30:54.279 show coming up, and he texted me and he said, I'm I'm excited 1205 01:30:54.359 --> 01:30:56.600 that I'm going to get to see us so you and I can have some 1206 01:30:56.680 --> 01:31:01.840 time together. I mean, it's just there's a it's hard to believe. 1207 01:31:01.880 --> 01:31:08.800 I mean, it is after all these years, all these decades that and 1208 01:31:08.840 --> 01:31:16.800 in this business you have business associations and the number of really true friendships is 1209 01:31:17.239 --> 01:31:21.359 a very small circle. And that was what was unique about about the horsemen 1210 01:31:21.439 --> 01:31:26.479 thing, that h you know, whether it's armed, and especially with Tully 1211 01:31:26.520 --> 01:31:32.720 because or with Barry too. When I was working Amarillo and Mulligan and Murdoch 1212 01:31:32.800 --> 01:31:39.600 bought the territory and Barry was Barry was hauling the ring. I wanted so 1213 01:31:39.640 --> 01:31:43.359 bad to be a wrestler, and Jack would have no, would not hear 1214 01:31:43.359 --> 01:31:47.279 of it. I mean you, you couldn't even you. He didn't want 1215 01:31:47.279 --> 01:31:53.640 to incur his wrath by even mentioning it. And so Barry used to tell 1216 01:31:53.680 --> 01:31:57.279 me. And so one night, I think it was Fort Stockton, So 1217 01:31:57.319 --> 01:32:00.520 I told Barry, I said, it won't be advertised, don't say anything 1218 01:32:00.520 --> 01:32:05.279 to anybody, bring your tights and and we'll have an opening match that's not 1219 01:32:05.399 --> 01:32:15.439 advertised. And I went in and you could tell from the first moment that 1220 01:32:15.520 --> 01:32:20.359 we locked up that here's somebody kind of like almost looking back myself when I 1221 01:32:20.520 --> 01:32:26.479 started a referee, that nobody ever trained me, but I saw so much 1222 01:32:27.159 --> 01:32:32.119 that I mimicked what I was seeing and came across as being experienced and polished 1223 01:32:32.520 --> 01:32:35.960 because I had seen it so often. And that's what happened there. And 1224 01:32:36.520 --> 01:32:44.119 it was easier to ask Jack's forgiveness rather than asking for permission if Barry could 1225 01:32:44.119 --> 01:32:46.520 wrestle. And it was like after I thought, oh boy, you know 1226 01:32:46.560 --> 01:32:49.239 I'm gonna have I don't want to fight Jack, but he you know, 1227 01:32:49.319 --> 01:32:55.000 And it was like once it was done, Jack wasn't angry. He would 1228 01:32:55.000 --> 01:33:00.159 never give his permission if you kept asking, but once it had happened, 1229 01:33:00.000 --> 01:33:06.279 and it wasn't like saying positive things about somebody just because of who they were. 1230 01:33:06.880 --> 01:33:12.800 He just was that talented. He was a natural, natural talent and 1231 01:33:13.000 --> 01:33:18.640 Jack wasn't mad. And that was the beginning of Barry is probably as good. 1232 01:33:19.680 --> 01:33:25.079 I can't think of anything better in my entire career. I've had three 1233 01:33:25.119 --> 01:33:29.039 thousand and two hundred matches. I've been around the business for for forever, 1234 01:33:29.600 --> 01:33:33.640 and as far as a talent that had the size, had the youthful good 1235 01:33:33.720 --> 01:33:38.119 looks, and had and had the ability in the ring to do anything and 1236 01:33:38.159 --> 01:33:41.800 everything, I don't think there's anybody better than Barry Wyndham. That's saying a 1237 01:33:41.800 --> 01:33:45.039 lot, and there were quite a few other horsemen who stepped in here and 1238 01:33:45.079 --> 01:33:49.960 there. Uh, what's the real story with by all, Olie didn't last 1239 01:33:50.199 --> 01:34:00.560 in the Horsemen. Olie at the time his son was when you're in high 1240 01:34:00.600 --> 01:34:08.560 school and wrestling as an amateur, and Olie wanted to go to all of 1241 01:34:08.640 --> 01:34:13.680 his high school meets to see his son wrestle. And so that's the reason 1242 01:34:13.720 --> 01:34:20.159 that Olie wasn't there a lot. And so he ended up getting eased out 1243 01:34:20.159 --> 01:34:26.960 of the thing. Arne came in and and it wasn't There was no hard 1244 01:34:27.000 --> 01:34:32.520 feelings because Ollie was doing he was living his dream seeing his son wrestle and 1245 01:34:32.600 --> 01:34:38.239 being able to go and see him and not be hurting the promotion where he 1246 01:34:38.239 --> 01:34:44.640 had made his living. So sometimes things just work out and that and and 1247 01:34:44.680 --> 01:34:54.039 that, that's what happened in that after. But and Olie, Olie was 1248 01:34:54.119 --> 01:35:01.279 up in years and um he when you looked at the like with Flair doing 1249 01:35:01.399 --> 01:35:05.199 well the limousine ride and jet flying kiss stealing son of a gun, with 1250 01:35:05.279 --> 01:35:09.439 the other guys not even with me, you know, it's like I could 1251 01:35:09.439 --> 01:35:13.960 sit there with this like silly grin on my face. That is like, 1252 01:35:14.000 --> 01:35:15.800 okay, the old party. You know he's loving hanging with the guys and 1253 01:35:15.880 --> 01:35:19.800 being around the chicks. Only it didn't work no matter how you tried to, 1254 01:35:20.079 --> 01:35:23.920 no matter how you tried to paint it, sell it. It does 1255 01:35:24.119 --> 01:35:29.319 he now, we could we buy the we buy the package. But yeah, 1256 01:35:30.079 --> 01:35:32.399 you mentioned Rick. God, I can't even imagine what it must have 1257 01:35:32.439 --> 01:35:38.720 been like to be around him every night. Oh oh god, no sleep. 1258 01:35:38.920 --> 01:35:44.279 Yeah, just constant partying and yet never missing a beat in the ring 1259 01:35:44.439 --> 01:35:49.159 somehow just he's the greatest champion of reasons. Yeah, I've seen you. 1260 01:35:49.359 --> 01:35:54.760 I mean, Luthez for twenty five years was champion. But in terms of 1261 01:35:55.199 --> 01:35:59.239 you know, the modern era, uh, nobody better than Flair. I 1262 01:35:59.279 --> 01:36:02.199 mean he and he lived the gimmick, you know, the robes and when 1263 01:36:02.199 --> 01:36:05.680 he was starting in the Carolinas, you know, he hired the limousine and 1264 01:36:05.720 --> 01:36:13.960 the driver. So he invested in his career and and had the talent to 1265 01:36:15.079 --> 01:36:20.279 live the back in the persona and backed all up he did. And again 1266 01:36:20.319 --> 01:36:24.920 I just right place at the right time. That was my you know, 1267 01:36:25.880 --> 01:36:30.479 all these pieces came together and I was always a part of it. Uh, 1268 01:36:30.520 --> 01:36:33.039 I say, the luckiest guy in the world. And I, as 1269 01:36:33.079 --> 01:36:38.840 we mentioned, the the McMahon to McMahon and then uh you know, and 1270 01:36:38.920 --> 01:36:43.359 it's when we uh kind of met up back then and with the WWF when 1271 01:36:43.399 --> 01:36:50.880 you arrived, Um, was that another opportunity? Did you see it was 1272 01:36:50.920 --> 01:36:54.760 time to go? Or were you looking forward? Or did it come to 1273 01:36:54.800 --> 01:36:58.119 you? How did how did the arrival in in uh you know, the 1274 01:36:58.159 --> 01:37:02.039 other completion of this this life mission of yours to be involved with the McMahons. 1275 01:37:02.960 --> 01:37:10.399 How did it come about? Well, the thing that h Terry Garvin. 1276 01:37:10.560 --> 01:37:15.039 Terry Garvin had been in working with Crockett, and I'd worked to get 1277 01:37:15.159 --> 01:37:19.720 Terry ran Towns and so he and I worked very very closely together, and 1278 01:37:20.720 --> 01:37:26.119 um, he was close friends with Pat Patterson, and I met Pat one 1279 01:37:26.119 --> 01:37:30.000 time when he came came and visited with Terry. And of course I'd heard 1280 01:37:30.560 --> 01:37:34.000 heard about Pat and he and Stevens and all the records that they broke in 1281 01:37:34.079 --> 01:37:40.119 California and up in Innneapolis, and uh, you know, he just had 1282 01:37:40.159 --> 01:37:43.199 the reputation of being not only a great in ring talent, but a great 1283 01:37:43.239 --> 01:37:50.239 mind for the business too, And just uh trying to think of where I 1284 01:37:50.279 --> 01:37:56.640 was going, but in terms of an opportunity up there, um, Terry 1285 01:37:58.279 --> 01:38:03.319 Vince was gonna gonna let's see, Crockett was Crockett was selling the promotion, 1286 01:38:04.520 --> 01:38:10.159 and so it was like everything was up in the air about what was going 1287 01:38:10.199 --> 01:38:14.000 to happen to everybody. And this new company was that was buying the promotion, 1288 01:38:14.039 --> 01:38:16.960 but they weren't wrestling people and what was going to happen. So everybody 1289 01:38:17.000 --> 01:38:23.720 was kind of looking for, um, maybe an escape hatch if necessary. 1290 01:38:24.119 --> 01:38:30.399 So Terry went to went up first and he was going to go run towns. 1291 01:38:30.920 --> 01:38:36.119 And so Terry would come to me and he'd say, you know, 1292 01:38:36.159 --> 01:38:41.000 they're looking at going the next step, and he said you your name was 1293 01:38:41.039 --> 01:38:45.479 mentioned a lot, and he said a lot of good things are being said 1294 01:38:45.520 --> 01:38:48.239 about you. And they said. The thing is though, because you're here, 1295 01:38:48.279 --> 01:38:51.159 And I think I don't know if I had a contractor to run out, 1296 01:38:51.199 --> 01:38:54.840 and I think it did, and I would, so I didn't actually 1297 01:38:54.920 --> 01:39:01.479 have a contract. And he said, but they there, they don't want 1298 01:39:01.479 --> 01:39:05.520 to call you. You would have to call them. And that's how it 1299 01:39:05.560 --> 01:39:15.399 happened. So one day I wor worth looking into and so I called Terry 1300 01:39:15.439 --> 01:39:18.119 one day and there's oh god, wait and hold on, let me go 1301 01:39:18.159 --> 01:39:21.000 get Pat he goes next to the end of the next office springs in. 1302 01:39:21.079 --> 01:39:25.920 I hear the door slam. Pat. Pat's on the phone and he said, 1303 01:39:25.960 --> 01:39:28.319 oh, I hear so many great things about you, looking forward to 1304 01:39:28.359 --> 01:39:32.640 meeting you. And so it was right before holidays, and I was going 1305 01:39:32.720 --> 01:39:40.560 to to uh go up to New York with my they we weren't married yet. 1306 01:39:40.600 --> 01:39:44.640 We were married that following year, but I was going up to New 1307 01:39:44.680 --> 01:39:47.119 York and we're going to do shopping in New York City and I was going 1308 01:39:47.199 --> 01:39:54.960 to stay in Manhattan to marry a Marquis. So Pat, they said, 1309 01:39:54.960 --> 01:39:59.479 well, Vince, Vince would like to personally meet you, and he said, 1310 01:40:00.119 --> 01:40:03.680 he doesn't nobody in the office knows that there's been any conversation, because 1311 01:40:03.880 --> 01:40:10.359 if the conversation didn't go anywhere, he doesn't want to jeopardize what you have 1312 01:40:10.439 --> 01:40:15.199 in Atlanta by word getting out. And he said, so this is something 1313 01:40:15.239 --> 01:40:19.199 that nobody in the office even knows. So I was at the Marriott Marquis 1314 01:40:19.359 --> 01:40:24.119 and I was told that a car would be sent in and let him him 1315 01:40:24.600 --> 01:40:29.479 take me up and not take me to the office, but take me to 1316 01:40:29.520 --> 01:40:32.279 Vince's house. And I remember I got there. Yeah, in Grantwich a 1317 01:40:32.319 --> 01:40:38.720 few minutes early, and Vince came in finished his promos and TV and didn't 1318 01:40:38.760 --> 01:40:41.399 even have time to take the makeup off. Came in, sat down, 1319 01:40:41.920 --> 01:40:51.359 and so he he said that he wanted to offer for me a job, 1320 01:40:51.439 --> 01:40:56.720 and he said, but I'll be honest with you. He said, I'm 1321 01:40:56.800 --> 01:40:59.920 not looking at you as an on air talent, and I said, well, 1322 01:41:00.079 --> 01:41:02.279 I don't have a problem with that. To start with, he said, 1323 01:41:02.680 --> 01:41:10.680 I'm here, I've heard so many good things about your attention to detail 1324 01:41:10.920 --> 01:41:15.720 television production. I mean, your background is so varied and complete in our 1325 01:41:15.800 --> 01:41:23.319 industry. And he said I would hire you for that, but with the 1326 01:41:23.399 --> 01:41:26.399 understanding that I'm not looking for you to go on TV. And said, 1327 01:41:26.399 --> 01:41:30.880 well, that's not a problem with me, because I mean I've had my 1328 01:41:30.039 --> 01:41:35.079 share of exposure in the limelight and the chance to come work for you and 1329 01:41:35.319 --> 01:41:41.319 what have you. So he offered me, he said, and I said, 1330 01:41:41.359 --> 01:41:46.760 the only thing is my year before I had my best year in the 1331 01:41:46.800 --> 01:41:49.520 business, which back in those days, I made a two hundred and twenty 1332 01:41:49.560 --> 01:41:55.000 thousand dollars that year, which with the salaries of Guy's mate today is nothing 1333 01:41:55.760 --> 01:41:59.199 but back. And then that was that was a lot of money, and 1334 01:41:59.239 --> 01:42:01.439 I said, the only thing is, I said, I don't want to 1335 01:42:01.439 --> 01:42:05.560 take He said as a salaried employee, said it's different than being a talent. 1336 01:42:05.600 --> 01:42:09.640 I said, I understand that, but at the same time, I 1337 01:42:09.680 --> 01:42:15.439 don't want to take a huge step back salary wise. I mean, I've 1338 01:42:15.520 --> 01:42:19.319 gotta so Vince said, okay, let me think about it. So I 1339 01:42:19.399 --> 01:42:25.800 think Vince said I'd made two twenty and he said he was going to put 1340 01:42:25.800 --> 01:42:30.800 me on salary with full benefits and everything for like two hundred thousand. And 1341 01:42:31.279 --> 01:42:33.800 it was before I got married and we were living together. And I said, 1342 01:42:33.880 --> 01:42:36.079 let me go home and run it by her. And I said, 1343 01:42:36.079 --> 01:42:40.880 I'll give you an answer the next day. And I took the offer, 1344 01:42:41.600 --> 01:42:45.359 which never looked back from, and which was very generous, very very generous. 1345 01:42:45.439 --> 01:42:48.560 Good run. How would you describe though your position? Because I remember 1346 01:42:48.600 --> 01:42:53.359 you doing everything. I just remember you would be in when we'd be doing 1347 01:42:53.439 --> 01:42:58.279 interviews, you'd be in the box, you were talking to talent, you 1348 01:42:58.319 --> 01:43:01.680 were running between fans. I mean, how how how would you describe your 1349 01:43:01.680 --> 01:43:14.319 position? Well, I wasn't it wasn't about a title that that wasn't important 1350 01:43:14.319 --> 01:43:18.960 to me, and it's basically my body at work. I had done just 1351 01:43:19.000 --> 01:43:23.640 about everything that you could possibly do, from put the ring up, the 1352 01:43:23.680 --> 01:43:30.239 referee into whatever. And I understood the makeup of a television show and producing 1353 01:43:30.279 --> 01:43:36.279 a television show and being able to uh manage talent, I mean not manage 1354 01:43:36.319 --> 01:43:41.520 talent and in the traditional manage on TV as a manager, but but be 1355 01:43:41.600 --> 01:43:45.359 able to handle a roster and deal with people because there, you know, 1356 01:43:45.399 --> 01:43:49.600 it's like anything else different being are all different. Baseball manager, you had 1357 01:43:49.640 --> 01:43:55.439 to know all these personalities, yes, yes, And the thing is, 1358 01:43:55.560 --> 01:43:59.720 my background was so varied that really I had done at all, so the 1359 01:43:59.800 --> 01:44:03.279 matter or who I was talking to, I could relate to whatever their position 1360 01:44:03.399 --> 01:44:06.039 was at that time. And I had walked to my aisle on their shoes, 1361 01:44:06.399 --> 01:44:10.239 so I knew how to talk to them. I knew what they wanted 1362 01:44:10.239 --> 01:44:14.560 to talk to about, what was important to them, and so you know, 1363 01:44:15.039 --> 01:44:16.840 timing wise, it just all fell in place for me. And I 1364 01:44:17.279 --> 01:44:20.439 keep keep saying I'm the luckiest guy in the face of the earth, But 1365 01:44:21.239 --> 01:44:26.560 I really paid my dues, and it was the whole body of my work 1366 01:44:26.600 --> 01:44:30.439 and the longevity that prepared me for that moment to be able to put in 1367 01:44:30.439 --> 01:44:32.039 that position and make that kind of money, you know, And I used 1368 01:44:32.079 --> 01:44:38.159 to what always amazed me about you guys that were you know, I didn't 1369 01:44:38.199 --> 01:44:41.079 mind revolving around that sun. That was nice, you know, to be 1370 01:44:41.119 --> 01:44:44.800 a planet or a moon or mooney out there. But you guys were like 1371 01:44:45.880 --> 01:44:47.840 close as you could get. I mean, eventually you got a melt. 1372 01:44:47.880 --> 01:44:49.760 I don't know how you could do it. But what was it like? 1373 01:44:50.079 --> 01:44:54.319 Because I know, I mean, I don't know if you were around Vince 1374 01:44:54.359 --> 01:44:59.079 twenty four seven, like Pat and Bruce were on call at any time yet, 1375 01:44:59.359 --> 01:45:00.800 but was a same thing for you and very much in the world. 1376 01:45:01.279 --> 01:45:12.239 Did you balance that? I was in the office suit and tie all week 1377 01:45:13.239 --> 01:45:15.319 and all the and all the care and Vince was hands on. He didn't 1378 01:45:15.319 --> 01:45:17.720 look at you know, if it was a poster for a pay per view, 1379 01:45:17.760 --> 01:45:20.560 he had to give his stamp of approval, so he would come in 1380 01:45:20.600 --> 01:45:26.920 and out of meetings. But all of the creative was done on the weekends 1381 01:45:26.960 --> 01:45:31.359 in his home and Grantwich, and so it was really a seven day a 1382 01:45:31.399 --> 01:45:38.760 week thing. But I was being paid paid good money and got along with 1383 01:45:38.800 --> 01:45:45.680 Pat, and Pat understood Vince. Yeah, that's a secret and Vince's likes. 1384 01:45:45.720 --> 01:45:48.840 He knew Vince's likes and dislikes, and so the things that he knew 1385 01:45:49.279 --> 01:45:54.079 Vince didn't like. Pat would never allow that to be put out in the 1386 01:45:54.079 --> 01:45:56.520 table because he said, Vince won't like that. We won't even ever bring 1387 01:45:56.520 --> 01:45:59.359 that up. And we knew what he did like. And I got along 1388 01:45:59.359 --> 01:46:04.720 with Pat, I really did, and we would work. It was like 1389 01:46:04.720 --> 01:46:09.880 when we would do the back those days we were doing three three different television 1390 01:46:09.880 --> 01:46:14.439 shows and we were taping every third week and doing three days and doing three, 1391 01:46:15.920 --> 01:46:18.319 you know, three hours of TV and then a dark match, and 1392 01:46:18.359 --> 01:46:25.760 it was like it really was. I mean, I don't know, I 1393 01:46:25.760 --> 01:46:30.720 don't know how anybody survived, especially but then you guys would get into you 1394 01:46:30.720 --> 01:46:34.199 know, getting the jet and finished home. But then I think he went 1395 01:46:34.239 --> 01:46:38.319 to the house too. I don't know when Vince McMahon ever slept, And 1396 01:46:38.359 --> 01:46:44.960 when you guys did either, it was he he would Vince would uh. 1397 01:46:45.000 --> 01:46:48.119 He never asked anybody to do anything that he didn't do himself. And he 1398 01:46:48.159 --> 01:46:51.640 would have He would have a legal pad on his night stand with the pencilona 1399 01:46:51.640 --> 01:46:54.520 he would wake up in the middle of the night, turning the light on 1400 01:46:55.079 --> 01:46:58.119 whether it was a dream or a thought that came to him and for fear 1401 01:46:58.199 --> 01:47:00.520 that he would forget about it in the morning. I think it was just 1402 01:47:00.560 --> 01:47:03.640 a dream. He would jot it on that tablet. And so he was 1403 01:47:04.279 --> 01:47:14.000 really into the business and just just a brilliant man with what he's done and 1404 01:47:14.039 --> 01:47:17.800 where he's taking the business. And I, you know, I got along 1405 01:47:17.800 --> 01:47:24.239 with Vice and we would work all day at his house. We'd be out 1406 01:47:24.279 --> 01:47:28.159 by the pool and I watched Stephanie grow up. Didn't see Shane that much 1407 01:47:28.159 --> 01:47:30.880 because he was running around with his buddies, but Stephanie would be there with 1408 01:47:30.880 --> 01:47:34.600 his girlfriends, splashing in the fashion in the pool, and we'd be under 1409 01:47:34.600 --> 01:47:40.039 the commander case it rain and you have a bank of wounds and and Pat 1410 01:47:40.079 --> 01:47:42.920 and I had a great big ledger that would have because we were running three 1411 01:47:42.960 --> 01:47:48.800 towns a night, and it was frustrating it sometimes because we would do TV 1412 01:47:48.920 --> 01:47:54.760 every third week and we would have three blank sheets for the three weeks of 1413 01:47:54.760 --> 01:47:59.199 TV that we were having to produce the next day, and we would start 1414 01:47:59.239 --> 01:48:04.079 on a Saturday and thence. Instead of getting those sheets and writing anything down, 1415 01:48:05.239 --> 01:48:10.640 he would go to WrestleMania the following year, that maybe ten months eleven 1416 01:48:10.680 --> 01:48:15.720 months away, and he wanted an idea in his own mind of what his 1417 01:48:15.760 --> 01:48:18.039 main event was going to be for that WrestleMania, and then he would say, 1418 01:48:18.079 --> 01:48:23.920 I could do this for Royal rumb I could do this for a challenge 1419 01:48:23.920 --> 01:48:28.560 and whatever, and he wanted to back up from there, which which was 1420 01:48:30.039 --> 01:48:34.239 good strategic planning. The only thing in the wrestling business. If you if 1421 01:48:35.039 --> 01:48:38.840 in the if he had this great plan with Ultimate Warrior and all of a 1422 01:48:38.880 --> 01:48:41.720 sudden, the Warrior tries to hold him up at the garden for money, 1423 01:48:41.720 --> 01:48:44.720 in Vince fires him. You might as well take that plan and just shread 1424 01:48:44.800 --> 01:48:49.359 it now you got that was in a way frustrating that you would spend all 1425 01:48:49.439 --> 01:48:55.560 that time for that long range plan that was susceptible to h and you're worried 1426 01:48:55.600 --> 01:49:03.359 about the part before. Yeah, uh crazy. But but we we you 1427 01:49:03.399 --> 01:49:06.800 know, we would uh we would do the TVs and we would book the 1428 01:49:06.840 --> 01:49:12.359 towns and we would you would have the main town, so you would have 1429 01:49:12.399 --> 01:49:15.359 to have like two main events and then your other town it was like usually 1430 01:49:15.359 --> 01:49:18.720 a B town and a C town, and then we would get them down 1431 01:49:18.760 --> 01:49:23.119 and then Vince would that Pat and I would then we would have a roster 1432 01:49:23.199 --> 01:49:25.800 with a list of It was very well organized. I learned a lot. 1433 01:49:26.039 --> 01:49:28.640 I'd have a sheet within all the names of the heels, kind of in 1434 01:49:28.680 --> 01:49:32.079 the old pecking approximate pecking order of importance, and all the bate and you'd 1435 01:49:32.079 --> 01:49:35.920 be able to scratch talent out and place them, move people around. It 1436 01:49:36.119 --> 01:49:44.840 was very structured, all thought out, and with people who had been in 1437 01:49:44.880 --> 01:49:50.720 the business all their life that like with Pat and myself, you know, 1438 01:49:51.680 --> 01:49:56.800 we could just make it work. And we had such a successful run in 1439 01:49:56.840 --> 01:50:03.399 there, and they understand was that everything. Vince took credit for everything and 1440 01:50:03.520 --> 01:50:09.800 good and no no dame never mentioned for anything that wasn't good. And we 1441 01:50:09.840 --> 01:50:15.560 would have this big, big ledger with the things, and so we finally 1442 01:50:15.600 --> 01:50:18.239 wrote things and change things and move stuff around. And invariably when we went 1443 01:50:18.239 --> 01:50:23.359 to TV, Vince would sit in front of the room, opened his ledger, 1444 01:50:23.800 --> 01:50:30.000 and then he would do the production meeting, presenting it as if everything 1445 01:50:30.079 --> 01:50:33.800 came from him right there, and Pat and I would have our books in 1446 01:50:33.840 --> 01:50:40.439 the back, and we'd already if we had done all this together, and 1447 01:50:40.560 --> 01:50:42.920 what would have happened or not. It didn't happen all that often, but 1448 01:50:44.680 --> 01:50:49.119 sometimes things would change, Oh let's do then we race this and move somebody 1449 01:50:49.159 --> 01:50:53.800 here, and Vince would forget to make the change in his book. Now 1450 01:50:53.840 --> 01:50:57.920 he's up there starting to go and all of a sudden, I look at 1451 01:50:57.920 --> 01:51:00.399 Pat. Pat looks at me, and I raised my hand in back of 1452 01:51:00.439 --> 01:51:04.000 the room yesterday and I said, Vince, I have a note here that 1453 01:51:04.239 --> 01:51:09.119 I think you changed your mind and said that you wanted to do this. 1454 01:51:09.960 --> 01:51:12.279 Yes, I forgot, you're right, I just you know, how to 1455 01:51:12.319 --> 01:51:15.319 present it was my thinking. I didn't write it that it was still Vince's 1456 01:51:15.399 --> 01:51:24.119 idea coming from him, ablematically, and because because we weren't there too, 1457 01:51:25.520 --> 01:51:28.439 it wasn't there about trying to send the message all these people. Well, 1458 01:51:28.960 --> 01:51:31.439 you know, you all think it's Vince, but you know we didn't have 1459 01:51:31.560 --> 01:51:36.680 that. We were paid well and the system worked well, and we didn't 1460 01:51:36.720 --> 01:51:42.159 need to send the send the impression that somehow that we were such an important 1461 01:51:42.159 --> 01:51:45.239 part of Yeah, it was just it was amazing how they put that all 1462 01:51:45.279 --> 01:51:48.760 together. And as I mentioned, you know, you you're revolving around the 1463 01:51:48.840 --> 01:51:54.359 sun, which is Vince, and eventually it's it's it's too much. I 1464 01:51:54.399 --> 01:51:59.960 don't know how Pat lasted for as many years as he has and Bruce's back, 1465 01:52:00.039 --> 01:52:02.880 But what was it? I mean, was it to a point where 1466 01:52:02.960 --> 01:52:06.319 it was, you know, it was too much? Because like you said, 1467 01:52:06.800 --> 01:52:11.159 Vince doesn't expect any anybody to do anything he doesn't do. But he's 1468 01:52:11.159 --> 01:52:16.000 a maniac as far as yes, his work ethic, yep, so too 1469 01:52:16.119 --> 01:52:25.239 much or what finally did it come down to it? I call it the 1470 01:52:25.319 --> 01:52:30.239 seven year itch. And you you hear about it in personal relationships that you 1471 01:52:30.279 --> 01:52:34.279 know, they get together and after seven years they just get so tired of 1472 01:52:34.319 --> 01:52:41.840 each other or something that that that what you were tolerating during this thing of 1473 01:52:41.880 --> 01:52:46.479 seven years reaches a point where it's not tolerable anymore much. And I think 1474 01:52:46.479 --> 01:52:53.560 with Vince it was the same way. Really, I was there seven years, 1475 01:52:53.880 --> 01:53:00.119 and yeah, it just reaches the point where you know, and you 1476 01:53:00.119 --> 01:53:03.000 your family gives it up a lot because you're in the office all week. 1477 01:53:03.039 --> 01:53:05.760 You're and I didn't have to go I don't and went to the garden and 1478 01:53:06.840 --> 01:53:12.760 um, but we if we didn't have the guarden, we had we worked 1479 01:53:12.760 --> 01:53:15.159 at the house on weekends and very solid and you a lot of times didn't 1480 01:53:15.159 --> 01:53:20.319 know you couldn't plan anything. And Pat, Pat had Louis. At the 1481 01:53:20.359 --> 01:53:24.520 time, it was still living and so Pat didn't have a life. I 1482 01:53:24.560 --> 01:53:28.920 had a family, and I wanted to be Lindsey and I got married, 1483 01:53:29.000 --> 01:53:32.319 but while I was there, but I wanted to be with I want a 1484 01:53:32.359 --> 01:53:36.199 time with her. I wanted some kind of balance in my life. Pat 1485 01:53:36.199 --> 01:53:42.960 didn't have that same need because he had Louis and they'd been together twenty five 1486 01:53:43.039 --> 01:53:48.800 years and his personal situation was different than mine. And I was willing to 1487 01:53:48.840 --> 01:53:54.399 work all week, work on weekends, but then I did want some time 1488 01:53:56.439 --> 01:54:01.079 with my family, and that that uh, that sometimes was a struggle to 1489 01:54:01.119 --> 01:54:06.239 be able to get that time. And my wife was very understanding. We 1490 01:54:05.880 --> 01:54:11.960 were we did well financially. I was you know, like I say, 1491 01:54:12.159 --> 01:54:15.680 Vince had a jet and very few people flew on it, but I was 1492 01:54:15.720 --> 01:54:21.199 one of them. And Vince would have it catered with, you know, 1493 01:54:21.439 --> 01:54:28.800 with shrimp and lobster, and now, I mean those things not as important 1494 01:54:28.800 --> 01:54:32.119 to me, but at the time it's nice that because you're working so hard 1495 01:54:32.600 --> 01:54:38.279 and there are some sacrifices with your family. So these were some of the 1496 01:54:38.359 --> 01:54:44.159 little things that whether I mean Vince wanted it for Vince, but he also 1497 01:54:44.359 --> 01:54:49.479 wanted you to be included because that was a way of kind of doing something 1498 01:54:49.520 --> 01:54:55.399 for you too, that to show his appreciation for left. Was it a 1499 01:54:55.399 --> 01:54:59.520 conversation with Vince that you have Did you tell him I just can't do this 1500 01:54:59.560 --> 01:55:03.359 anymore? How did it? How did it end with you too? He 1501 01:55:03.479 --> 01:55:06.279 brought in a girl. He brought in a one a girl. She was 1502 01:55:06.279 --> 01:55:15.600 a woman. Uh that uh uh. She was in charge. She in 1503 01:55:15.680 --> 01:55:19.640 the peck and chain. She was actually I was an executive vice president, 1504 01:55:19.680 --> 01:55:26.039 but she was above me and I reported to her. And she her two 1505 01:55:26.079 --> 01:55:32.720 brothers were connected with the NFL, and so she she was a player. 1506 01:55:33.359 --> 01:55:41.199 And um, we would go to the to the hotel on the road, 1507 01:55:41.239 --> 01:55:43.439 and of course she'd be on the hotel too, and then she we go 1508 01:55:43.560 --> 01:55:45.119 up there to check in and she's and I want to ruin night next to 1509 01:55:45.199 --> 01:55:53.079 JJ, you know, and it's like yeah, and nothing ever happened, 1510 01:55:53.119 --> 01:55:58.760 but it was the perception of what might be going on that she yeah, 1511 01:55:58.960 --> 01:56:01.920 you know where I'm going. It just and yeah, and it kind of 1512 01:56:02.680 --> 01:56:10.800 at times made me uncomfortable, but uh, she was my boss and uh 1513 01:56:10.640 --> 01:56:15.399 uh, And I would like if we would go to a TV in Baltimore. 1514 01:56:15.439 --> 01:56:20.159 We would drive Baltimore. She had a a flat in in Manhattan. 1515 01:56:20.479 --> 01:56:24.119 So she said, well, I want you to come in and pick me 1516 01:56:24.199 --> 01:56:28.399 up and I want to drive with you. Say okay, So I would 1517 01:56:28.439 --> 01:56:30.039 I would go into Manhattan and pick her up and she would come out and 1518 01:56:30.039 --> 01:56:33.239 she'd have a I had a sweet tooth, and she had a bag with 1519 01:56:33.319 --> 01:56:35.840 all these candies that I liked, and she'd put them in the middle of 1520 01:56:35.840 --> 01:56:41.199 a console and um, he felt kind of built her rest. It just 1521 01:56:43.880 --> 01:56:47.800 it both ways. It can happen. I don't want to say has Yeah, 1522 01:56:47.960 --> 01:56:54.800 harass is maybe too strong a word, but but it was, um 1523 01:56:56.000 --> 01:57:00.920 yeah, yeah. It was enough that I wasn't comfortable and and it was 1524 01:57:00.960 --> 01:57:10.760 like I think Vincent pat Well, it's like if you see somebody that's that 1525 01:57:10.960 --> 01:57:15.600 steps on a hot payment and asked to dance because of Peter Burne. I 1526 01:57:15.640 --> 01:57:19.920 think Vincent Patton enjoyed, knew it, could see what's going on. And 1527 01:57:20.560 --> 01:57:27.000 she was an older woman and I'm Lindsay. Lindsey was thirteen years younger than 1528 01:57:27.039 --> 01:57:29.000 me. I had a young woman and a young wife, good, really 1529 01:57:29.000 --> 01:57:35.000 good looking, and so they they enjoyed watching me having to try and yeah, 1530 01:57:35.039 --> 01:57:40.880 watching me squirm around what was obviously somebody with her. You know, 1531 01:57:40.960 --> 01:57:43.600 we check out, I'm my room, make sure my room is next to 1532 01:57:43.720 --> 01:57:46.800 JJ, you know, and Patton Vince would looking older eyes, little smirk, 1533 01:57:47.079 --> 01:57:49.279 and I'd have to just sit there with a straight face. You know 1534 01:57:49.600 --> 01:57:54.319 what. It also sounds like you were ready at that point, is that 1535 01:57:54.359 --> 01:58:00.159 true? Yeah? After after seven years and I don't remember that, I 1536 01:58:00.159 --> 01:58:10.760 don't remember what part of what happened. Was the the legal thing and everybody's 1537 01:58:10.760 --> 01:58:16.840 salaries were cut for a period of time, and so that was a and 1538 01:58:16.960 --> 01:58:23.920 the salary was eventually restored. But uh, and after seven years, it's 1539 01:58:24.000 --> 01:58:29.479 like I ended up going to Atlanta and I had the exact same position. 1540 01:58:29.520 --> 01:58:34.720 I was executive vice president of Talent Relations. And basically I went for the 1541 01:58:34.760 --> 01:58:38.520 same money, maybe even a little bit more money, and end up staying 1542 01:58:38.520 --> 01:58:45.319 there seven years. So I've I've had a great career. I if I 1543 01:58:45.479 --> 01:58:54.960 remember when I went to uh Tusty's memorial service after Dusty passed, who God, 1544 01:58:55.000 --> 01:59:00.640 he was close for me, and and that was a tough one and 1545 01:59:00.479 --> 01:59:05.119 I was sitting there Flair and as Flair's wife, and I was sitting in 1546 01:59:05.159 --> 01:59:12.239 the in the thing, and incomes Vince, Lindau, Shane and Stephanie and 1547 01:59:12.319 --> 01:59:15.840 they sat in the row right in front of us. And then there was 1548 01:59:15.880 --> 01:59:19.199 a breaker. When the thing was over, Vince's out, and of course 1549 01:59:19.199 --> 01:59:24.079 everybody wanted to, you know, wanted to have their moment talk to Vince. 1550 01:59:24.119 --> 01:59:27.439 And I walked outside and all of a sudden, Vince turned around and 1551 01:59:28.960 --> 01:59:32.479 saw me and made eye contact and it's like JJ, you know, it 1552 01:59:32.560 --> 01:59:39.600 was like yeah, two old brothers that hadn't seen each other and family reunion 1553 01:59:39.600 --> 01:59:42.279 and runto and it was like, yeah, it was that corny running up 1554 01:59:42.319 --> 01:59:45.000 and he hugged me and I hugged him, and God, Invince, how 1555 01:59:45.079 --> 01:59:46.279 you doing. God you look great? Yeah, you look great. I 1556 01:59:46.359 --> 01:59:51.920 was thinking everything's going good, you know. And so I left with no 1557 01:59:51.920 --> 01:59:57.960 no bad feelings, no ill will, and I called the seven year rich. 1558 01:59:58.079 --> 02:00:05.680 I think, I think best of times because of the the demands that 1559 02:00:06.199 --> 02:00:13.680 the business has on you and demands on your personal life. You it's hard 1560 02:00:13.800 --> 02:00:19.560 because you can't do it part time or you can't do it halfway. It's 1561 02:00:19.640 --> 02:00:25.159 twenty four seven and consumes your whole life. It's all in and to be 1562 02:00:25.279 --> 02:00:30.000 successful. That's the commitment that you have to make. And I and knowing 1563 02:00:30.039 --> 02:00:32.239 where I came from and my history and the business, all of a sudden, 1564 02:00:32.880 --> 02:00:36.600 I'm a top executive for the greatest player in the business. That's a 1565 02:00:36.640 --> 02:00:42.000 global thing. I mean, people would have died to have my position. 1566 02:00:42.760 --> 02:00:46.039 And I never was. It wasn't an ego thing with me or I never 1567 02:00:47.760 --> 02:00:50.199 never went to my head. Trust me, I never went to my head. 1568 02:00:50.279 --> 02:00:55.960 I'm sure many many people would say that. In my last question JJ, 1569 02:00:56.039 --> 02:00:58.720 as we wrap up here, and one thing I really like about the 1570 02:00:58.840 --> 02:01:03.479 w W Hall of Fame is that they're not celebrating just time spent with the 1571 02:01:03.640 --> 02:01:12.039 wwfwwe. They're celebrating accomplished careers and and and it's full circle when I think 1572 02:01:12.079 --> 02:01:15.239 you guys stand on that stage. And so with that in mind, what 1573 02:01:15.279 --> 02:01:25.199 did it mean to you to be inducted? Meant a lot, because you 1574 02:01:25.239 --> 02:01:29.600 know, you hit, you get accolades for what you've done. And and 1575 02:01:29.760 --> 02:01:34.039 I I don't want to sound corny, but I am by nature of a 1576 02:01:34.119 --> 02:01:42.039 humble person, and I am thankful. And I and when I do interviews 1577 02:01:42.039 --> 02:01:45.600 in the ring, the last thing that I that I always try to say 1578 02:01:45.880 --> 02:01:53.000 is to point to the fans that are sitting there and to say that my 1579 02:01:53.199 --> 02:01:58.279 success was not because I was the biggest, the best, because I wasn't. 1580 02:01:59.000 --> 02:02:01.119 I was surrounded because a lot of times the Horsemen will be in the 1581 02:02:01.159 --> 02:02:04.560 other corner, and I was blessed to be able to be around guys. 1582 02:02:05.199 --> 02:02:09.840 But I said, the ultimate judge and jury for all of it is you 1583 02:02:09.920 --> 02:02:15.479 people sitting out here, because you're the people who saw us that there was 1584 02:02:15.520 --> 02:02:20.920 something that we had that garnered your attention, and that you people work hard 1585 02:02:20.960 --> 02:02:25.000 for your money and that you were willing to spend the money to come see 1586 02:02:25.079 --> 02:02:30.159 us. So it's you that I had that I salute who have supported professional 1587 02:02:30.159 --> 02:02:35.239 wrestling, have supported the Four Horsemen, and have supported me frying my entire 1588 02:02:35.279 --> 02:02:41.319 career. That's fantastic. And JJ, really it's been awesome chatting with you. 1589 02:02:41.359 --> 02:02:44.000 It's been a long time since we really got a chance to sit down 1590 02:02:44.039 --> 02:02:46.399 and chat. And I hope we can catch up on those baseball stories next 1591 02:02:46.399 --> 02:02:48.439 time we see each other. Let's have a beer. And I've got some 1592 02:02:48.560 --> 02:02:53.560 great but I know you got some other things going on, and you've got 1593 02:02:53.560 --> 02:02:59.159 another podcast happening. How can folks tune in to this version of the JJ 1594 02:02:59.399 --> 02:03:06.119 Dillon Show. Yeah, it's on at six oh five and on Saturdays, 1595 02:03:06.119 --> 02:03:14.319 and I think it's the Major League Wrestling Network. We've been doing it for 1596 02:03:14.359 --> 02:03:17.039 just a couple of weeks, and uh, the feedback has been excellent from 1597 02:03:17.039 --> 02:03:20.479 what I'm told. I don't listen. I've never listened to my own podcasts, 1598 02:03:20.520 --> 02:03:25.199 and I don't listen to other podcasts, so I don't know if it's 1599 02:03:25.199 --> 02:03:30.880 good or bad. But I am by nature of storyteller and um, people 1600 02:03:30.960 --> 02:03:35.239 who have commented the things that stick out to me that make me feel good. 1601 02:03:35.319 --> 02:03:43.000 Are we like that that when you do your podcasts and or any kind 1602 02:03:43.000 --> 02:03:47.000 of an interview, you're not an angry person. It's not like, you 1603 02:03:47.039 --> 02:03:50.600 know, you've had all the success, you have nothing to be angry about. 1604 02:03:50.800 --> 02:03:55.720 But a lot of people in this industry when they do an interview, 1605 02:03:56.199 --> 02:04:02.079 are angry about something or somebody or whatever, and you're not. And that 1606 02:04:02.199 --> 02:04:05.760 I don't. I don't use colorful language. I don't swear. I don't 1607 02:04:05.760 --> 02:04:10.199 swear at home, so why would I do it on an interview. It'd 1608 02:04:10.199 --> 02:04:15.960 be totally unlike me. And uh, I just as a kid sixteen years 1609 02:04:16.000 --> 02:04:19.680 old, I fell in love with wrestling, and I've had an unbelievable career 1610 02:04:20.279 --> 02:04:25.399 that just one thing fell in place for me after the other, and now 1611 02:04:25.720 --> 02:04:28.680 all of a sudden, you know, I'm in my seventies, and I 1612 02:04:28.920 --> 02:04:32.479 and I'm I've got two Hall of Fame rings, and I still get asked 1613 02:04:32.479 --> 02:04:38.159 to go and appear at shows and fan fests and things, and and I 1614 02:04:38.159 --> 02:04:43.840 still love getting out with the people and hearing their stories about what their memories 1615 02:04:43.840 --> 02:04:47.960 are of me, if if we've met before or hadn't. It never gets 1616 02:04:47.960 --> 02:04:50.239 old, never gets tired. Well, JJ, thank you so much for 1617 02:04:50.279 --> 02:04:58.520 coming on primetime. Thank you. I've enjoyed Primetime and I tend to get 1618 02:04:58.640 --> 02:05:03.520 long winded, but I hope your listeners have enjoyed the conversation and would love 1619 02:05:03.560 --> 02:05:05.159 to continue it at some time in the future.