However, I'm standing by right now. There's no one to me there,
Sean, the moody moody. Everybody's got a price for the million dollar man.
After you throw him off through the announced table, take her climbs back
down, he gets in the ring and he goes see if he's breathing.
Right before I called nine one one, I thought she'd fallen asleep. Kind
of shook her a little bit to wake her up, and she did not
respond. And I'll go down to my go to my grave testifying or whatever,
swearing that Davy was not on drugs. If he was on drugs the
way Bratt says, how does I mean? How great does that make Davy?
Are you laughing? Sean? I get off the track here all the
time? Did you just laugh? Sean? You go ahead and chop me,
give me a big chop. I'll sell. I'll give you my whole
chest and everything, and then I'll look at you like this, and then
I'll punch you right in the mouth as hard as I attention. Sean.
Come you slime you, Margot. Because there's no further questions, You're dismissed.
Carry on, Margot. Hello everybody, and welcome to yet another edition
of Prime Time with Sean Mooney. I hope you've all had a great week.
Thanks for tuning in once again. I know that you have many many
choices out there, so please know how much I appreciate you listening week after
week. This has been a little rough week for me. This you can
probably tell my voice. It's I've been a little under the weather, as
we say, but we are going to power through. You'll notice so when
I'm talking to our guest this week that you know the voice wasn't the greatest,
but you know we got to do this week after week. We want
to keep bringing you great content and we are coming off another great episode.
Wow. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Deborah Masselli, better known as
Medusa or if you remember her from the WWE Alundra Blaze. What an intriguing
I think that's the best word to describe her. What an intriguing person.
I mean amazing what she has accomplished so far in her life, because she's
still going, She's still got a lot happening. And not only did she
blaze a trail for women in professional wrestling, helped put them on a path
to equality in the business as we are seeing today. She then went on
to get involved in the monster truck circuit and became, you know, never
having driven one of those trucks ever before. You know, you heard her
tell the story, and if you haven't listened to that episode, please do
it. It's a great one. But we went on for POI over two
hours, I think, but she talks about how she's got a phone call
to come down and try out one of these trucks just to you know,
see if she would be interested, and went around the track, ran over
a couple of cars, thought that they were going to throw her out of
the arena there, and they asked her to sign on. What she did
for seventeen years came a two time champion, so what an amazing woman.
Really enjoyed my conversation with Medusa, and I also hope you've been enjoying the
network classics we've been putting out. This is a new addition to the PTSM
family. We have a new episode every single week, and this week will
be no exception. We've got the second episode of Raw, which just came
out on Monday. In these network classics, though, we're just choosing different
episodes from the network, the WWE network, and then I do a watch
along with you, but these I do separately, so you can listen to
them whatever you want. All you have to do is you queue up to
the start point and then we just go off and running. And not only
do I provide you know, commentary and what's happening on the screen. You
know, as I've said before, what's really been fun for me doing these
is because you know, a lot of that stuff disappears from your memory,
especially when you get up in the years. You know, I'm sixty,
guys, so you know, I've forgotten a lot of things. But when
I watched these, it comes back to me, and so I never really
know what I'm going to come up with. But so far, man,
it's it's been a blast want them because I've remembered things or i remember something
about a certain personality what they did. So each episode is very different from
the next. And as I mentioned, this week, we're doing the second
episode of Raw and they know, of course, that's the early beginnings of
what became or has become, you know, the longest running episodic program on
cable television, and Vince and Randy Savage along with Rob Bartlett, are still
doing the commentary for these, so I had a blast doing it. I
hope you'll catch it. It's up already and you catch the episode every Monday
at six am Eastern Time. That's when these are put up. Alrighty,
Let's get to the main event this week. A man who appreciated every single
minute. He was a part of the business of professional wrestling, and he
did it all. Let's get to my conversation with one of the original Four
Horsemen, J J. Dillon Ding Ding Ding. Hey, folks, the
best way to describe my guest today is every man because he has done everything
in the world of professional wrestling. He's been a referee, a wrestler,
a manager, an agent and executive, a two time Hall of Famer.
See what I mean. He's done everything. Oh, and I should mention
he's an original member of the Four Horsemen. Welcome JJ Dillon. Hello,
JJ. Hey, Wow, that was a very nice introduction, Thank you
very much. Sometimes covers, it barely covers. How are you kidding me?
All? Yeah, I mean, I'm just it. I'm at this
stage of my life where I look back and and I just know that that
it's been a great career for me. But I also recognized that the reason
I had any level of success was because I met good people along the way,
and they all embraced me and helped me. And now I sometimes pinched
myself when I looked at that I've got two Hall of Fame rings, and
and just as a sixteen year old kid in New Jersey, I fell in
love with professional wrestling back I mean, I'm going back to ANTHONYA. Rocca
and then you know, Buddy Rogers and Bob Morton, and just dreamed that
someday, you know, maybe that this could happen for me, and and
just good fortune along the way, and all of a sudden, like I
say, all these years later, I look back, and but I had
a lot of help along the way. I really did. It wasn't I
was never the biggest, never the best, But nobody loved the business more
than I did and was willing to work any harder than I was. I
was, and so I was rewarded for all of that. Well, I
think you said so many people helped you along the way, and because I
wanted to. You know, you were somebody who had absolute respect not just
for the business, but for them, the people you respected, and they
returned it in kind many many times. We're you know, I want to
talk about that, and you know, the incredible wrestling career, it's just
so many different things you did. But I go back to the beginning here,
and you know, when I say what Trenton makes, the world takes
wow, that's right on the side of the bridge acrossing the Delaware River.
Trenton's right, So you know, and I have a really good friend who
is from there and would often remind me of that. Now you're gonna love
this j J. Because, like I said, you were an everyman.
But maybe I should have described you as a utility player because I know one
of your first loves was baseball and my first job is huh still is.
But yeah, I fell in love with the Brooklyn Dodgers. And in nineteen
fifty eight when the Dodgers uprooted and moved to California, and the Giants followed
them, and the only ones that stayed here were the Yankees. And back
in those days, this was before the internet, it was before cable television,
of course, so I used to get up and get the morning paper
and because of the print deadline because they were now based on the West Coast,
it would only have a line score to about the third inning. So
it was hard to keep up the passion that I had for my Dodgers and
and and you know, I think everything in life probably happens for a reason,
and so that's what caused my my interests is to swing to the world
of professional wrestling, which has worked out well. And uh, but I
still have that passion for baseball. Yeah. Well, uh, and you
know, my first job was with Major League Baseball Productions. That's how I
ended up back east because I did grow up out in Arizona and just things
happened. That's a new long story. But I ended up back there working
for Major League Baseball Productions and had the opportunity. We used to do this
weekend baseball and you know, I would log you know, baseball games all
day long. And you know, of course that was the big show,
was Mel Allen. But at the end of the year we would do highlight
films for all the teams. We did all twenty six at the time,
all those teams, and I had the great fortune to work I did four
Dodger highlight films when I eventually became a producer. So I did four Dodger
highlight films and got to do the twenty five year history film, and so
I had the chance I got to meet all of these original Dodgers. Duke
Snyder, I know you're a fan of all these and I'm telling you that
was such an incredible period of time in baseball history because you talk about the
Giants, they were there and then you had the Dodgers, and of course
they all moved lest but what a time. But I don't know if you
ever had the opportunity to go to any of those games when you were a
kid. But I just my parents took me because I used to watch the
Dodgers on Channel nine out of New York and happy felt it's not whole gang.
And I think my parents everything that I've been involved in, whether it
was wrestling or the love for the Dodgers before, my parents probably thought,
well, you know, I'll my taste will change, I'll outgrow. But
they never did, and I had a chance to go. Like I say,
they took me one time to Ebbittsfield, and I don't I just remember
sitting behind the up in the section behind the dug out on the third base
side, and I have this memory of Warren Spawn with that big nose and
that high kick warming up in the bullpen. And that's the only recollection I
have of that day. But I say, I went to one game in
ebbitts Field, and then the other thing was my wife, my my we're
now divorced, but my third wife gave me a present of a week for
Dodger Fantasy can really. Yeah, So Gloria down to Florida and so again
Duke Duke Snyder was my idol. And so now I'm in the batting cage
and there's Duke Snyder, you know, leaning against the thing, you know,
critiquing my and it's like I had to just step out and pinch myself
that here's my childhood, childhood idol standing here. And um god it was
Carl Erskine was there, who was Clem Lebine. A lot of the old
time Dodgers and UH. And what may their fantasy camp different from all the
others was that you actually lived in Dodgertown in Very Beach and the Uh they
had like two to a room, and the Phillies had one, and some
of the other teams had him, but they would house you in a hotel
and you would go to the practice ground, but the one in Very Beach
were the Dodgers. Uh. You you had your meals and everything there and
it was uh, it was an incredible experience for me. Yeah, and
just amazing because I uh we would go down and cover spring training and god,
uh, you know, Sandy Kofax is there. But anyway, I
get off track here, but I just love everyone's while I run into somebody
that could appreciate h that history and uh, the last last day was the
last day. Uh. The thing ended like on a Wednesday, and so
we went to to a local restaurant. Uh, My wife and my kids
were real young. Uh stayed in a hotel because you actually lived in uh
you know, you know house where the players were housed and the court family.
And so the last night we went to a restaurant from for dinner and
as we're walking in the front door for dinner, the door opens and outstamps
Sandy Kofax leaving. And so it was like whoa wow, you know,
and Campanella was still alive. It just it's for somebody that was a Brooklyn
Dodger fan and to be able to go there. It was like a dream
come true for a kid. It really was. Yeah. And I also
got to work on the I did a highlight film with the sixty one Yankees
and I actually have the poster in my office here. It was a pinstripe
power and I we got to go around the country JJ interviewing all these guys
that run that team and were still around and oh god, it was just
an experience. But we'll share that over a beer sometime. I'm going to
say, I'll tell you more of the stories, but I want I worked
for I worked for Vince rigmah and got to know and and met John Philippelli,
who was now the president of the S Network and became hcame good friends
with he and his wife Jenna, And um. So one time it took
me down to Yankee, had me go, took me to Yankee Stadium,
uh, and back in the club house and there's um, you know,
I can't remember what the thing was, a plate at the end of the
dugout and back you knowing this what looked to me very small, uh locker
rooms. You know, you think, oh well, Yankees. But of
course the modern stadiums are all, you know, built different, but uh,
it just was a magical, magical time for me and and uh,
you know, meeting my childhood heroes. Yeah, you go to those houses
been a Yankee stadium back then. Fenway, Yeah, so it really it
is quite an experience. But I want to get I want the Fenway too.
Just Greg Oliver, who who was bred Hard, introduced me to Greg
Oliver, who was at that point, I think a third base coach for
the Red Sox. And so when I was in Boston, he had me
come over, take a cab in the morning over to over to Fenway and
again I got the whole tour there and walked out on the field out to
the to the Green Monster where you look at it and it looked like somebody
had taken a ball peen hammer and just tap tap tap tap. There was
all the dents all over. And then you opened the opened the door and
you look underneath and there's all of this scaffolding and everywhere you look, somebody
has taken a sharpie and signed their name. And I found an open spot,
So my signature is under there somewhere. I can't imagine that they ever
paint over any of them and uh, just again, you know, a
dream come true for me. Yeah, look at us, JJ were like
two little kids talking to these stories. Yeah, it's the truth, man,
I have fond memories. That's like a whole other part of my life.
I don't know we ever, I don't know why we never chatted about
this when we worked together well at the WWF, because I would have had
a lot of great stories to tell you and I and some day we will.
We we're gonna share those. But I know, folks listening want to
hear us talk about your career along the way, because you mentioned so many
different things that you you did and you know and going through it and I'm
looking at like in your book, it's almost like you got on a train
that and I don't want to say you wanted to get off but couldn't get
off. It just kind of went in all these different directions. These opportunities
came along and one was better than the next, or was the good choice
at the time. Do you feel that way? Yeah? I always went
I always like in it too. And this has been a story of Martin
life. I've been very fortunate that, like as one door seemed to close,
behind me, and there was another door in front of me. I
would open it and there was the next opportunity. I never had a like
a downtime or a void where I was sitting around wondering what's coming next.
It just it all fell in place for me. And as I said,
I had a lot of help along the way. And I think that the
people that I interacted with embraced me because I was a little bit older,
I wasn't a kid, and they realized that that the passion that I had
was genuine and I always showed respect for other people and and as a result
of that was what was respected and people wanted to help me. And so
as I looked back God, I met the who's who of U. I
went to Japan and went over there with with a week early before Japan tour,
and it was one of those deals where they had a group of American
players over there that were actually in Yokohama. And I went over a week
early with the Kiyosado who handled American talent for Giant Baba and met Sadahara and
like the five hundred home run club was a big deal because the number wasn't
wasn't so many back in those days, and there was a counterpart at home
run players from Japan and they were they were all there, and it just
was really meant a lot to me to be able to beat the great stars
from from Japanese baseball. Yeah, well that that's just another bonus along the
way. But where did this love really start for wrestling? Now? You
mentioned that, um as we back in that time, there wasn't the opportunity
you could really follow baseball. And then of course your favorite team decides to
move, you know, more than a few thousand miles away that would kind
of fill the void or was it something else that just grabbed your attention about
it? No, you hit it on, hit the nail on the head.
That that was a turning point for me. I mean I always liked,
I really liked baseball. Uh. You know, everybody dreams of being
a major leaguer and I knew that I didn't have the skill level to ever
do that, But that didn't mean I didn't love playing playing the game.
Uh, and so it and living in being from New Jersey and then especially
when I was working for Vince Ringman, uh and met John Philippelli and you
know, just you know, It's funny like baseball wrestling, a lot of
wrestling fans are huge baseball fans, and when you interact with baseball players,
most of them are huge wrestling fans. So it just, um, it
had a natural connection, right, you know, right from the very beginning.
And that's amazing because you know you mentioned that. And I'll just tell
you a quick story. I keep coming back to baseball. But one of
my first highlight films I ever did, I did for the Twins, the
Minnesota Twins, and I remember that I went there and I was I was
so you know, I was just this green kid. I didn't know what
the hell I was doing with these shoots or anything, and I had all
this responsibility and I walked into the locker room and can't Herbeck if you remember,
Yeah, it was with that team. There were these young kids and
Gary Guyetti and it was just this really young group of kids and they were
wrestling in the I mean, full blown, all out body slamming in the
locker room. So it's it's been woven into my life as well. But
I had I had the pleasure of meeting Kirby Puckett, too, huge wrestling
fan. Yeah, and you know when I met him, it's like here
I am in awe of you know, meeting Kirby Puckett. And he thought
it was a big deal to meet me. And and I wanted to talk
about baseball. He wanted to talk about wrestling. That happens. That happens
a lot. Yeah, it's like rock stars. They do the same.
The rock stars want to be wrestlers, and you know, the movie stars
want to be wrestlers. So the world's collude. But it's all about entertainment.
That's that's what all comes down to. But I know that you're you're
one of the first stars that you really followed, and wrestling was with Johnny
Valentine, and you end up doing a fan club for him, right,
Yeah, I was sixteen years old and had a fan club for Johnny Valentine.
And I've got a picture on the wall of the basement of the armory
in Trent, New Jersey, and john was walking out and had a picture
taken with him. And I also befriended huh, the original Zebra Kid,
George Bolis, and he tried the world, spent a lot of time in
Europe, and he corresponded with me from all over the world, but used
to have a thing. I don't know if they still have them, but
it's like eleven eleven by fourteen real thin paper and it was blue and you
could write a letter on it, and then they had all the folds and
you would fold it up and when you ended folding it up, it would
be an address and you would mail it and then somebody could take it.
And there were two places that you would slice and the whole thing would open
up. And it was a very inexpensive way, especially with international mail.
Really, Yeah, that's crazy that it's when we think back about how simple
that way, you know, snail mail as they called not even though that's
not even you know now to to put imagine people putting stamps on things that
you know, maybe with a thank you note today. But that's about it.
But you know, you got I guess obsessed and and and we're going
in phill it you're near Philadelphia in a sense that you could you had a
lot of access to the city. Is that that's where you went most of
the time, right for to watch it? Yeah, I was. I
was born and raised in Trenton, which was about thirty five miles from Philly
and about sixty five miles from New York. So television wise, we used
to get the TV stations out of Philadelphia in Trenton and the TV stations out
of New York, so we were we used to be able to watch,
uh, the old Dodgers on Channel nine would like I say, happy Felton's
not a whole gang and watched, so that really was helpful and becoming a
huge Brooklyn Dodger fan. And then like I say, in nineteen fifty eight,
they up and moved to the West Coast, as did the Giants.
The only ones that stayed here were the Yankees, and it was you know,
like I was heartbroken because again before cable television, before the internet,
and you know, you went out and get the morning newspaper and there'd be
a just a small line score from about the third inning when they went to
went to press, and so it was hard to keep up, you know,
the interest. And that's when I kind of discovered, you know,
professional wrestling, and all my attention and most most of the focus of my
attention went to to wrestling, which worked out quite well for me as well.
Yeah, but you decided to go to college and you know, not
to say that people didn't go to college back then, but there was as
many people who went into trade jobs or you know, didn't. What made
you decide to go to college and you finished, you got a degree?
And was it always the backup plan or did you think I want to get
into the wrestling business why college? Well, I befriended the original Zebra Kid,
George Bullis, and they used to do TV in Philadelphia at the NBC
studios in Walnut Street on a Wednesday night and they would tape it into auld
Air on Saturday. So I was living in I was going to college and
Reading, and the guy who would set the ring up lived in Reading,
and so I would drive down with him to Philly every week, and they
stored the ring in the basement of the NBC studio. He would get it
out and I would help help him, and the ring would be it was
a scale down ring. And then the basement they had like a which was
actually a small movie theater because there was a screen that could drop down from
up above and the seating was kind of like a theater where the seats kind
of went up as it went further to the back, but it didn't seat
all that many people, and the stage is where the ring was set up,
and it would be set up right to the front of the just fit
on the stage, and the front of it was almost up to the edge
of the thing. So the guys had to know not to take a bump
out through the ropes on that front side because it would be about another five
foot drop to the floor. So it was down ring. It was a
smaller ring, a little bit smaller ring ten and the announcer would sit I
can't remember the guy's name. He was handicapped and walks with a limp,
and he would sit there at a little desk right to the side of the
ring. And Uh the other guy that would set the the ring up and
I would help him. We each wore a white T shirt. And for
the matches, he would take the jackets from one corner. I would take
the jackets from the other. So at that time I was in college and
it was like my my ten seconds of fame every week on TV. It
just was God, it was some great, great memories. But I,
like I said, I befriended a lot of these guys because that most of
them that were traveling the East Coast circuit lived right across the river in Paulsboro,
New Jersey, because it was accessible to go north and south if they
were because they would go up as far as as the Tip and New eng
went up in Maine, and then they would go down to Washington, d
c. And they would go as far west as Pittsburgh. So in terms
of major highways and whatever, so it was it was a great place to
live and to really get to know all the stars of mad Era. And
they all came through there, yeah, at one point or another. Yeah,
pretty much, you know, because it was what was good was it
was a lot of the other territories would have a major town, but that
would be it. It would be a major town and then smaller towns would
fill out the circuit. But the East Coast had you know, Boston was
a major town. Province was a major town like New Hartford, New Haven.
They were major towns, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh down to Washington. So the
top stars in the business eventually hope to be able to get on, get
in, get their foot in there, and come in because the earning potential
was so great because of all the major arenas in that in that area.
So did they how did they divide the territories up then. I mean we
knew that Vince Senior was there and basically ran New York, But how far
did those territories run? Was Philadelphia different? Something else that was carved out?
How did they do that? And then of course we know that they
would exchange talent, so how did how did it work? There were probably
twenty five small promotions all across the country. Now by small promotions, I
mean like Florida would have been a territory in and of itself that would that
would produce their TV. They would Aaron Tampa and they had a circuit that
you know, it would be like Tusay was Tampa, Wednesday was Miami,
Thursday was Jacksonville or whatever, or Tallahassee, Yeah, and then Tallahassee.
So and these were weekly towns and so in the televisions it was produced in
Florida and only seen in Florida, And it was only later on. I
remember I was in Amarillo and wrestling fans always because wrestlers would come in and
want to stay as long as they could. So I was fortunate that some
guys, you know, five six months was their maximum. And it took
me a little bit longer to get over, but then I could stay longer.
And when you were having to move and change it change and get a
new apartment and schools and everything, the moves were were and then you're having
to re establish yourself before you stopped making you know, top money in the
territory. So it was it was uh kind of a strange time in the
business. And then when m Georgia Championship Presling came on out of Atlanta and
Cable went on. I remember being in Amarillo at the time, and the
fans in Amarillo would say to to the to the Ko's accident, Amilla,
when are we going to see wildfire Tommy Rich and Buzz Sawyer because that's who
they were seeing every week out of that Georgia TV. But they weren't in
the town. They didn't understand territories. They didn't know. They didn't understand
that you produced the TV for your territory, and that was virtually all the
exposure and all the interests was built around. Now they've got something else in
there, seeing well, they never really rationalized, well, let's see this
guy's feuding with this guy. I mean, because that's what you had to
do when you had to build up feuds and and and do finishes uh in
the arena, to build towards the following week, and then do something on
TV that compliment. And it was that's just how the business worked. Now,
all of a sudden, they're seeing a TV, another TV other than
the one that's produced locally out of Georgia. And I remember the muss Saint
the Permia, When are we going to see wildfire? Tommy Rich and buzz
Sawyer and not understanding that, well, I don't have anything to do with
them. They're doing their own TV over there, and they were running around
Georgia and they did go up as far as I think Columbus, Ohio back
in those days. But that was the beginning of the change for television.
And that's where Vince McMahon. I tipped my hat to Vince because he realized
the direction of and the other local promoters tried so desperately to hang on to
what they had without realizing that they were becoming obsolete in time and that it
was only getting worse than not better. And so Vince understood that he had
to get his TV on in these other major markets so that he could become
and he really was the first not only national promoter, but global promoter too
because he was going to England and going throughout Europe. Yeah, but before
that, and the thing is, like you mentioned, I mean, it
flipped everything when cable came in and they were able to have these broader markets
and cover more of the country because prior to that, with the territories,
you had your TV, but the TV was just for that viewing area,
and you could have a guy have a run there and let's say that might
run eight months, and then he could go somewhere completely different. Nobody had
seen him. These were crossing over and you would see these guys somewhere else
and then suddenly they show up here. But you've already you know it didn't
Things had to change, and it wasn't as though, you know, you
give full credit to Vince and he deserves it, but it wasn't as though
these other promoters didn't try and do the same thing. They just didn't pull
it off because they wanted to do the same thing, and they they didn't
want to take the risks because involved financial when you're traveling across the country and
running live shows. Then the transportation became I mean it just changes. It's
not the simple thing that that that it once was when you had a small
geographic area and you were doing weekly towns and you know, you could do
spot shows in high schools and all. But it just it radically, radically,
you know, change the change the industry well, and you know the
stories too that you know. Vince's idea with the syndication was he would go
to these local stations and back then we had them on videotape and they would
would be a show and they would send the thing out to air on that
Saturday morning whatever. And he was paying that. He was paying stations to
play. He was buying airtime. It wasn't though they were, you know,
and that almost I think he did that radically changed the business because up
to that point it was a barter system another word. They would produce like
Tampa would produce a TV and it would go to Miami and so the TV
station in Miami would get a complete one hour program that they it was handed
to. It would come it would come by bus on a two inch scotch
tape and they would separately sometimes separately get there would be like six two minute
commercial spots in an hour of television that the station got to insert the promotion
kept two so that they would do the tooth events centers, Like if it
was in Miami, you know, they would you know, they would do
the hard sell for what was in the and if they didn't have a show
in that market, they would fill it with something generic and then the other
four spots the TV station would sell that. And that was like, so
they're getting an hour of programming U and of the of the sixth hour and
being paid to do it because of the six uh on the six commercial spots.
Uh, they they had four to sell advertising. And the nice part
of it was that these shows were getting great ratings. Yeah, so you
know, and you remember Nel, you remember you remember Nelson Swegler, Yes,
and Wilson we had yea, I had him on the on the show
and and uh we got to talking about the same concept of how Vince was
doing this, and he uh told the story of they're all in a meeting
and and Nelson brings up the fact he says, you know, there's these
other spots that we can use to put in there of our own advertisers,
and he said, Vincent, Vince said to him, we're not in the
advertising business. We're in the wrestling business. And how much has that changed?
Well, and he was true. He was true because it would not
have had the same impact if they had filled the all six two minute commercials
with live events centers. Yea, if it was four of the ones that
the station could sell the local and it was getting good ratings the wrestling show,
So that was revenue for them that here's here's a finished product, six
television commercial spots. They're giving you the the what to produce in the show
for two of them, and the other four you can sell the advertising and
it's getting good ratings. So it was a win win for the TV stations
because they got an hour show that they didn't have to do anything and could
could sell the advertising at good rates because it got good ratings, and then
the promotion had there was two spots to hard sell whatever the live events were
in that market. It was a great system and a great time in the
business. Yeah, it sure was. They would end up making a lot
of money as advertising and being slim gym and the rest, but that's a
that's another story. And before we get to your days at the wwwwe I
wanted to bring up because one of your first jobs was a ref in the
ring. And I was fascinated when you talk about it, because a lot
of people don't understand how it worked back in the day. And I remember
the when we used to play the Garden in both Boston and New York,
and when we went to Philadelphia, they were really strict about not only the
unions that would you know about the setting up rings and that kind of thing.
But the Athletic Commission was so explained how that worked because it was you
know, it was just a payday for these guys being able to help wrestling,
keep kayfabe or whatever. But for them it was it was it was
big money. So explain how that worked back then with the Athletic Commission.
Well, yeah, you had commissions and like even in Pennsylvania, you had
a NIST commission, uh that took care of half of the state to the
east and in a separate commission for the western part of the state down to
Pittsburgh. And like you say, the referees, Like in Philadelphia with the
referees, it was a thing where the commission referees often we're not wrestling fans,
and it was a it was a political thing. Other words, as
a as a as a political favor. They would say to somebody, oh,
I'll have you put on as a referee for wrestling, and you come
down there and you make a hundred bucks. Well, back in the seventies,
one hundred bucks would be it would be a lot of money. Yeah,
it would be somewhere between five hundred thousand dollars today. So to have
somebody say will you come down there and you don't have to do anything,
you just got to be able to count three. The problem was that once
on a TV where they were having it, wanted to do something on TV
that was controversial or two because it's a it's an it's an athletic soap opera
goes on weekly and it's you know, so they had some hot finishes.
Well, these guys that were getting paid one hundred bucks just to be there
and count one, two, three, when it was all of a sudden
somebody said well this is what we want to do tonight, and all of
a sudden, their eyes would get soap out of here. Yeah. Well
I was a wrestling fan, so for me, I didn't you know,
the heat, I didn't care And because I had befriended the wrestlers. They
they liked me because they knew that, well, if there's a hot finish,
he's going to do it and he's not going to be scared to death
and he's not gonna he's not gonna turn and turn around and look when he
shouldn't and kill the impact of the finish. And in return, they embraced
me. And it was always like with a hot finish, they would tell
me, you know ahead of time that it's going to be an especially you
know talent like Philadelphia, a lot of Hispanic fans, and you know they're
passionate, and sometimes you're worried about them storming the ring, and then you're
also worried about getting from the ring back to the back of the arena where
the dressing room was. And the guys used to say to me, you
know, they knew it was hot and okay, and they would say,
when we tell you to go, go, when you see the policeman coming
up the aisle, when they're about halfway up the aisle, you go and
then start and no matter how crazy it gets or how much yelling or stuff
trash me and thrown, do not stop and do not look behind you.
We will be behind you, and if anything, will be pushing you and
they're coming to meet you from the other end. And all of those controversial
finishes, all of those hot finishes. I think I got speared in the
back with a chair one time that left a welt in my back. But
other than that, they took care of me. They took care of me
because they realized that that that I was important to the business. And the
next show where the other referees that were just commissioned referees and were there for
the pay day didn't want to do an it, didn't want to be involved
in anything hot, well, they were gonna help sell it either. But
you know you mentioned police, they were like some of those like riot squads,
right, They weren't just cops hanging out. I mean they would come
out with the shields and but the other thing you got to remember too,
a lot of these a lot of these shows, the cops were local people.
They they they yes, were they were there to protect you, but
many of them were kind of fans too, and they're watching you and you're
doing something to basically you've incited those people deliberately. That's what you're there to
do and now all of a sudden, you're making my job difficult because I
got to protect you. And so it was always a balancing act and I
always you know, made it a point. Uh you know, I safely
got out to the back and stop and you know, give each of the
policeman a hug and thank them for can care of me. In other words,
it wasn't like I never took them for granted, and I genuinely appreciated
that the that they took care of me. Yeah. And you know,
on the other side of this, or the Athletic Commission and JJ you know
it well that um, you know, they set this up. It was
it was the same way they the same procedure they did for boxing matches.
So they would come, they'd have to have it. There would be a
doctor that would have to see all the guys, and it was and I
don't know what the cost was, I don't know what they but that went
on for years, right, Yes, yea, for sure, and I
think that that was part of the reason that finally events said forget it.
I'm not you know, to keep this up as ridiculous. Yeah, they
worked, they worked to abolish the commissions because the commissions. They were having
to pay a tax or a fee to the commissions. So the promotion looked
at that as an expense that did nothing to enhance the show. It was
a political thing, and if they could somehow eliminate that, that was more
revenue to be split other ways. Yeah, and it was a pain in
the ass for all theason I remember they used have to line them up and
it was like, what what a farce? But but anyway, I just
always was fascinated by that because you know, they ran it. It was
just like it was you know, main event boxing, you know, and
uh, it was like, come on, this is we're just trying to
entertain people here. But that was part a big part of your your way
you got started though, is you were a great referee. You knew not
to cross in front of that that hard camera. So that what happened what
like I say, I was I went to college. I went to Albright
College and reading in Pennsylvania, and the and the guy who set the ring
up took it out of storage in the basement of the NBC's thing was from
reading and so I knew him. So every Wednesday I would then ride with
him down down early in the day to uh to Philly. He would get
the ring out and set the ring up on the stage, and then,
like I say, each of us would put on a plain T shirt and
he would take the jacket from one corner. I would take it from the
other. And then what happened was we went down there because we would leave
early in the day to go down there, because of having enough time to
get the ring out of storage and set it up and so forth. And
they had a weather come through that we got down there kind of ahead of
it, and we're actually in the studio ahead of the of the brunt of
this storm hitting. Well, the storm hit really bad, and there was
enough wrestlers that showed up to be able to put a one hour show together,
but none of the commission referees showed up. And it was like,
oh man, we don't have any referee. What are we going to do?
And of course everybody's eyes turned to me, and they said, well,
okay, here gave me. They gave me a striped shirt. And
I ended up refereeing the entire hour because I was the only one there,
and I instincted lee from being a fan. Like I say, they didn't
have to give me any instructions. I just instinctively knew what to do,
knew not to they and they made a pointment then whatever you do, just
don't not walk in front of that you walk through sides of the ring.
Do not walk between the hard camera there in the back of the ring.
You don't want to see your butt. Man. And that's the only instructions
that they really gave me. And of course the boys all took care of
me as far as whatever the finishes were, and and I did the whole
hour they were they forgot dude, Wow, why have you been refereeing from
so then they allow me to get me added to the commission. And that's
that's how it all grew. All grew from that. You know in your
book the wrestlers are like seagulls from McMahon to McMahon. Um, and then
you know it all makes sense. I mean, that's that's a quote I
guess from Vince Senior. But um, he was around a lot and then
and I think that you you meet you met him during that period of time,
Yes, and he would eventually go get trained, so he would come,
he would come to the big shows and once a month in Philly.
They would either be at the Arena and forty six in Market, or they
would be a convention hall and the Vince would come in. Vince Senior would
come in, and I always remembered he dressed, you know, always with
a shirt and tie and jacket and usually wore a vest. And I always
remember that he had I don't know if they were half dollars or silver dollars,
that he would have like five or six of them that he It was
like a nervous habit that he would. He had a way of rolling him
over back to front, back to front, back to front. It was
like a nervous thing and that and I remember he was a heavy smoker.
But I got to know him on a first name basis, and you know,
he realized that I was there to help the business. And so when
I because it was a commission assigned deal, I wasn't assigned to every show,
and yet I would go down to the show and be there in case
somebody got hurt, something happened, and just because I was I was a
wrestling fan too. And invariably the payoffs were done, the guys would get
their advances, the talent from either Arnold scoland or Angelo SAVOLDI and even if
even when I wasn't when we refereed, we used to get one hundred dollars
Now one hundred dollars back in those days was a lot of money. But
I wouldn't be assigned to every show, but I would still be there and
invariably Scoland or Angelo would come over and shake my hand and pall me a
twenty dollars bill. And Vince wanted you to have this appreciate that you were
here just in case we need Yeah, just showing up just in case we
needed something, and that you know, twenty bucks was back in those days,
was probably a hundred dollars today. So we talked about this. You
mentioned the doors opening. That was one but I guess you had in your
mind you always wanted to be a wrestler, and I think I think you
ended up in Florida and started training with Graham. I never really trained,
So how did you end up high Momy? Did you go there with the
idea that I want to wrestle? How did how did you end up taking
the stripes off and actually putting the tights on? What happened was I and
when I went to I went to high school in New Jersey and then New
Jersey. At that time, they had no amateur high school wrestling. I
never saw an amateur wrestling match in New Jersey for the I graduated. I
went to high school between sixty and sixty four. And when I graduated,
I went to Albright College because they had a wrestling team, and I went
out for the wrestling team, never having even seen an amateur wrestling match.
So it was like, you know, your first tendency when you're wrestling is
to want to turn and reach rich around, and you learn within thirty seconds
you're helping me. You're helping your opponent do what he's trying to do to
you, which is to turn you on your back. So you know that's
an no note. It's to stay on all fours and not get turned over.
And so I learned the fun and I went back to I was befriended
by the original Zebra kid, George Bullis, and like, and I get
asked this question today, and I know I asked the question a lot of
times. George, I want to be a wrestler. Can you give me
any advice? And his advice to me was he said, you know wrestling
will always be here, So before you worry about that, you first need
to get your education. And because the wrestling businesses could be very brutal,
you're it's an athletic thing, and you're there's a possibility that you could be
hurt on any given night and ever be able to continue your wrestling career.
So if you have that diploma in your back pocket, that's your insurance policy.
So get your get your get your diploma, get that education, get
that degree first, and while you're there, go out for the wrestling team
and learn the fundamentals of amateur wrestling. Even if you don't you've never wrestled
before, you're gonna learn and you will be a better professional because you're now
employing leverage and things that are that are integral to amateur wrestling. That if
you incorporate that into your style as a professional, you'll be a more proficient
professional. And he was absolutely true about that. So George Bullis had a
very very profound effect on me, and I took his advice. I went
to college that was not that far, one hundred miles from Trenton to go
to Reading and they had a wrestling team, and I went out and they
didn't have a heavy weight because it was a small school, and so I
had to learn from from scratch, amate your experience. He was right,
really helped me be a more polished professional. People say, well, amateur,
resident, professional and other two separate things. Yeah, they are,
but if you can incorporate like leverage and things that they're logic, there's a
there's a balance. There's a lot of fans sitting there who who will have
an appreciation for the fact that you don't do things that if it was a
real fight, there are certain things that you wouldn't do, and you learn
from amateur experience what not to do because you're always trying to protect yourself.
You're always keeping from being turned on your back and what have you, and
it ends up making you a better professional. So George was very very right
about that, and getting my degree was a smart thing to do, and
I just I got good advice for good people, and then I made a
lot of friends along the way, and so you know, I never was
trained by anyone. And what happened was, um, I h referee on
television and I one time there was a bad storm and nobody showed up and
I had to referee the whole hour, and Ray Fabiani was there and said,
boy, you're really good and we need to get you on the commission
staff, which he did. So now I'm starting to referee for them for
the house shows. And then Willie Gilsenberg came and said, Ray, who's
this good kid. He's really good. He said, he's a Jersey boy.
He's he's He said, well, I got to talk to him and
get him on the commission over. We need somebody like him. He's really
good. He just knows instinctively where to go. So, you know,
it just so much, so much fell in place for me. And then
uh, to Florida. I'm trying to think, well, before I went
there, it was like I was one day in the Justin room and it
was Eddie Farhat the Cheek came in for a series of matches that challenged Bruno
and just sitting in the dust room making casual conversation, you know, he
said, you're really a good referee. He had good size and everything,
and I said, well, he said you could come work for me.
I told him my dream was that I really wanted to be a wrestler,
and he said, well you could come. I promote Detroit, you come
work for me. And it was this. There was this silent pause for
a couple of seconds as I'm trying to digest what he just said. And
I finally said, did you mean because my parents, my father worked for
General Motors and they closed the plant down in Trenton and he was moved to
Detroit for the last ten years before he retired, so they lived in Detroit.
And he said, well, I promote Detroit. You could come out
and work for me. And I paused for a couple of seconds. You
mean I you know? I said, you mean come and referee for you?
He said, no, you want to wrestle, bring get your tight,
come out and we'll put you in the ring and see what you can
do. And that's how it started. I worked My first TV match was
in Dayton, Ohio. It was a tag match against the Hell's Angels,
and then the next and then Saturday, excuse me, Saturday, I was
supposed to be off, and then Sunday they did TV's up in Waldlake,
Michigan. So there was a guy named Johnny Carr from Springfield, Ohio who
was in the Dayton that night, and so, what are you doing tomorrow,
and I said, I'm off tomorrow, but I'm working TV Sundy so
well, we have a car load that goes over to Pittsburgh because they need
extras for their TV matches in Pittsburgh. And he said, you're welcome to
get in the car and come with us. I can almost guarantee you're gonna
work. Oh hell yeah. So I went to Pittsburgh Channel eleven on top
of it, and of course I knew Bruno, though Bruno Oftentime wasn't a
TV it was Rudy Miller and and Ace Freeman that took care of business.
So I went over there and uh, that's how I got my my foot
in the door over there. And then when I saw Bruno him he really
yeah, he said, oh yeah, you know, and then he wanted
to do everything that. When I first went over there, I said,
well, I you know, I'm I know Bruno, and of course you
know Ace Freeman is yeah, yeah, we've heard that story before. And
I didn't, you know, I didn't, And I wrote Brunoi letter and
he had been in Italy and so I never I didn't know he was in
Italy, and I didn't get a re sponsor here back from him. And
then they had a big show at the Civic Arena in Pittsburgh. So I
went down to the show and um, I went to the to the back
thing, and I asked to see Hace Freeman. And Ace came out and
I said, I wrote Brunoi letter didn't hear from him, but I hear
he's here tonight, and I'd like to be able to say he loo to
him. I could just stay here, so okay. All of a sudden,
the door opens about thirty seconds later, and he's waving me, come
on, come on, come on, come on, and I go inside
and Bruno embraced me like I was his long lost brother that he hadn't seen
for ten years. And and he then looked and Ace Freeman is like,
heard my story, but he's heard that story a hundred times from and but
now his eyes are like, like, what you know, brun Bruno does
know you, and he's excited to see you. And then he looks at
Atu, looks at at what's same, and he said, I want him
working this weekend. And he said, if you have to add a match,
put him on the match. And and Ace Freeman is looking it's like,
uh, yes, sir, and so I they would run three times
a week. They would run Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And so I
worked there for everyegin for a year, and then I was going over to
Detroit and the Sheek put me on all his big shows and then I'd work
as TV two. So I was getting in ring experience. And that's where
I met Jim Grabmeyer who was from Springfield, Ohio. He would work every
summer for Crockett in the Carolinas because they would increase their roster because they ran
like a lot of outdoor shows and what have you. And so when he
came home, he know, I got to know him, and he summer
started. He goes to Charlotte and he two days later, I get a
phone call and he said, I'm down here in Charlotte and he said there,
but I had been a heel and he said they're they're hurting for talent.
And I said, well, I got this guy. I had your
picture. So they looked at it and they said, just based on my
recommendation, he said, they'll book you sight un the scene and this is
like on a Friday night, and he said you could be here Monday and
start Monday and I'm thinking, huh, and I've got a job. And
it's like and I had an old beat up Chevy, and I had never
been below Richmond, Virginia, and Charlotte seemed like another planet. And they're
saying, if you're here Monday in Charlotte, and I said, and of
course, you know. All I said was, well, yeah, I'll
be there. And I'm thinking, how am I going to get there?
I've never been that far and so and then I remember I was afraid to
burn a bridge there where I was working. So I gave the people and
that I was working for like a letter. I put it under the station
manager's door or the thing, and gave him like two weeks notice, and
knowing that I wasn't going to be there into for two weeks, I was
going to be in Charlotte on that Monday, and I drove through to Charlotte.
You could stay at the y MCA in Charlotte for fifteen dollars a night,
and it was right up the street front on Eastmorehead Street, from where
Jim Crockett Senior had his office. And I went to Park Center on that
Monday night and drawing a blank Anderson the original Anderson, and they booked me
with him, and it was like the first match and they said, you
know, six seven minutes and you go over Yester or whatever. And I
go out there and it was a twenty minute time in the match and all
of a sudden, I'm here in seventeen minutes, eighteen minutes, only two
minutes left, and the referee saying, what are you doing it? And
so you know, when they went into a finish and Gen Anderson then sent
word when the match was over, he's The referee came over to me and
he said, well, I know you're only supposed to go six to eight
minutes, but he said, jeanecause sense that that you had talent and he
wanted to keep you out there and just seeing more and more what you were
capable of doing. And the time live it almost ran out. So he
said, you have passed the test. When Blank colors my friend and and
so I ended up I stayed there for over two years and I just I
like, I say, I sound like a Burger record, but I just
I've been so lucky Jay that I don't think a lot of people realize is
that you did have uh, you know, a pretty impressive wrestling career.
Everybody remembers he was it what you did, because I mean, you know,
I know that you had a match at Madison Square Garden with Tito Santana
for the Intercontinental Championship. Killer Kowalski is somebody you could go on and on
with all these guys that you match up with it. But I don't think
people really knew when I first when I first got booked and I went to
Dayton and I was off Saturday, and they said, well, you know
you could work tomorrow. We sent a carload over to Pittsburgh. So I
went over to Pittsburgh and I worked the TV match which was my actual first
single match, and it was Killer Kowalski. So it's a matter of pride
for me to say, well, who'd you have your first single I actually
had a tag match my first match, but who was your first single match
with Yea? And as I reflect back many a night where it was like,
at that moment, it was the closest I thought I was coming to
dying in the ring, and not that Walter was. He was not dangerous,
but he was perpetual motion. He would start and he would knock you
down and then he used that stomach claw and you'd take a bump and you'd
be sun from the bumping, and just about the time you were ready to
take it to get some fresh oxygen in your lungs, that claw And as
as I think back in oh God, I thought, am I going to
survive this? And you know, he spoke very highly on me, because
you know, but a lot of times those old timers, when they're wrestling
somebody for an enhancement match and have no idea, you know, they're going
to be cautious and and and so you have to, you know, earn
their trust and it just like and I stay there two years doing that,
and then the Chic when he would run Kobo Hall or something, I would
call the Chic and he say, yeah, put you on the card and
come over and you can work the TVs too. So I was working back
and forth between Pittsburgh and doing the big shows and TV for the Chic.
And then that's when I met Jim Grabmeyer and I was there for over a
year. Grabmyer leaves to go to Charlotte, and all of a sudden I
get the phone call. He said, well, I'm here in Charlotte and
they're they're hurt for talent. I had your picture and showed it to him
and they said, well if if if you speak at the I'm come on
down. He starts Monday, and I did. I packed everything, and
I thought, well, you know, you never know if another chance like
this would come along, and it was so unexpected, so I packed everything
I had, Like I said, never been south at Richmond, Virginia at
that point, drove all the way through to Charlotte, stayed at the at
the Y m c A. And and when I think I went to the
office that day and you parked behind it was in a residential street and Crocott's
office. You you went in the driveway and they had like an open parking
area in the back, and then he had a stair stare, a long
stairwell from the back of the of the building that went up three flights of
stairs to where his office was on the on the third floor of the thing.
And um, it just you know, they took a liking to me
again, and Sandy Scott was there, uh, and they you know,
they they they recognized right away that I was. I wasn't a kid,
I was a little bit older. I was like months of my twenty eighth
birthday and now I'm starting as a full time wrestler, like living finally living
my dream and uh, I just never looked back from there and uh all
that experience, uh you know, because as I said, most people remember
your your time in front of the camera and uh being a word smith and
and you know, just being great cutting promos and then also but you did
at ringside, but that training, I mean you could take a bump at
the best of them. And I always talk about that. People don't really
appreciate what you guys could do in the ring and someone like Bobby Heen and
he could take incredible bumps. And at what point the manager, you know,
you say these doors open. When did that become something serious? And
you said, you know what, maybe this is this is a good time
to you know, to take this opportunity because I would imagine it have to
be something big that would take you out of the ring. Yeah, I
finally went. I finally had a chance to go to Florida, which was
where I wanted to go and work for Eddie Graham. I heard, you
know that he was this genius about the psychology of wrestling, and it's like
I wanted to be under the Eddie Graham Learning Tree, so I finally was
able to get booked. And when I went down there, the Mongolian stomper
was there, and and he left to left Florida to go change territories to
go to Tennessee where he had a top spot and with bearcatt Right as his
manager, and he wasn't going got a week ten days, and all of
a sudden I get a phone call and he's it's Archie Goldie and he said
this thing was was a disaster. He said I should have known bearcatt Right.
It just there was no way I was going to work out, but
it was worth a try. And he said it's so bad that I can't
I tried. I had to do my own promos and it just killed my
gimmick. So he said, I can't stay in Tennessee. And he said,
I've been on the phone. I've got a main event spot in uh
in Dallas for Fritz van Eric where a Red Beast teen is a booker.
And he said, but I don't have a manager. Have you ever thought
about managing? I said, uh no, sure, hadn't. And he
said, well, we've got a top I said, well, I'd have
to get some. Back then, they had leisure shoots. Suits were popular,
and I said, I'd have to spend a few bucks to get a
couple of things so I could. And uh so I went went to Dallas
and that was the beginning and never turned back. Yeah, and uh,
well I've kept you an hour already and there's still so much ground to cover
here. But um, you know, kind of fast forwarding where you would
really start to be recognized as one of the premier wrestling managers out there,
and uh, it's not something that's anywhere near appreciated today, but it was.
It was a big part of selling storylines back then. And uh,
you know when when you hooked up with Dusty later on, I mean I
think it was an eighty four in Charlotte and you started booking as well.
Was this uh you know kind of all coming together for you at the time.
Well, I wanted to go to Florida to be under the Eddie Graham
Learning Tree. And when I went to Florida, I had never met Dusty
and he can't he'd been up I don't know where he'd been, but he
came back to Florida and he would move in and out, and I learned
later that that too much of Dusty was not a good thing. So Eddie
Graham knew how to massage Dusty that if before he would would be there too
long, that the globe would be off of it. Eddie would work with
Instagram Senior and say I need to move Dusty out of here for a couple
of months, and then Vince would say, great, I can bring him
up here, and he pops the garden and the major towns and it would
always Eddie would always approach Dusty with Dusty, mom, my good friend,
Vince needs help and you're the only one that could help him. So it's
like he was he knew how to massage Dusty, so that he was he
was fulfilling what was best for Eddie in the Florida career, but doing it
in a way that he was selling it to Dusty. That you know that
he was doing this for Dusty because they needed him so bad. And that
almost sounds like I don't know, but but Dusty was a good tent.
Sometimes the great talents can be their own worst enemies. They can stay too
long or just wear out there welcome and Eddie understood that Dusty was best when
he would have a run, moving him out for a while and then bring
him back and he would come back in and explode it again. And so
that they were able to trade Dusty off between Florida and in New York.
But going to Florida, Dusty came in and I really got to be around
Dusty and developed a friendship with him that you know, and I still think
about, you know, with sadness with his passing, but um, you
know, but Michelle and Dusty became not only he became a close personal friend.
Yeah, and there's so many people on the way that talk about how
he helped them along in their careers. And you know there's when people getting
those positions and they're just incredibly talented people, and then you become you have
that booking power. Sometimes it can change, you can kind of cloud your
judgment a little bit, and I think that there were some issues with that
later on, but uh, it got you in along this road. I
mean, now we're talking you're getting to the big time in a sense.
And I think it wasn't even a with the n W a year later that
you're you're part of the four horsemen. So at this point in your life.
What are you realizing this or is it just like I mentioned that the
train is rolling. Yeah. I was in Florida and I had a had
I had worked early in my career at the in the Canadian Maritimes and actually
got my break up there as as a as a heel and I was the
top heel for the summer and it was the biggest year they ever had.
And I came in and that again they had had killer Carl Croup, they
had had Archie Goldie before that, and they were they were supported. And
I was got to know Leo Burke because he would come for the off season
down in the summer for the Carolinas. Because in the summer they would run
up in the in the Maritimes. They would run hockey arenas and the ice
would be down in the summer and that's when they would run. But in
the winter, when they you know, played hockey, um that they would
shut down and so they would then go to UH. He would then go
and to UH to the Carolinas. So um, you know, they saw
me and they said, well, actually Weaver. They kind of like they
were friends with Weaver because they wanted to keep in Weaver was. It was
Weaver and George Becker that were the top team, and then Johnny was like
the booker. So you know, Leo Burke and the Beast and those guys,
you know, wanted to keep that relationship good with Weaver. So they
would bring Weaver up to the Maritimes like for a week at a time and
give him star status. They would bring him in like he was this your
great story, and he wasn't. John was a very talented guy. It
wasn't like they were giving him something that he wasn't worthy of. And so
one week he was supposed to go up there for a week and one of
the guys in Charlotte got hurt. I don't remember who who it was,
and one of the top guys, and so obviously Crockett said to Weaver,
well, you know I need to keep you here because you weren't booked,
but top guy got hurt, and so I need for you to take that
now that he's supposed to go up to the Maritimes. So he calls they
call me and they say, well, we want you to go up there
for a week. Weaver can't go, and we know that you'll go up
there and we just know that they're you're not going to disappoint them. And
I said, well, how am I going to get there? And they
said, will you come to the office and talk to mister Crockett. So
I come to the office and I sat there crossing that big table, and
you know, the Crocket knew the whole story. He said, I understand.
You know that John was supposed to go up there, but so and
so got hurt. We need to keep John here. And so John wants
to make sure that whoever goes up there doesn't disappoint them, and so he's
hand picked you to go. And I said, oh wow. And like
you, I remember it was like six hundred and eighty dollars for a ticket
round trip ticket to go up to Halifiers and I said, well yeah.
Well, I said, well, man, I'm flattered, but I said,
I don't have them to buy the ticket. And we said, well
you need to get you get your ticket, you'll go up there. They'll
reimburse you for that ticket. So Jim Crocker goes in his pocket, gets
out of big wad of bills and he counts out I think it was six
hundred and sixty dollars six hundred and eighty dollars or whatever hasn't ane hundred dollars
packs tacks, and he said, you go buy your ticket. When you
get up there, he said, they'll reimburse you, and when you come
back, you just come in and repay me. I said, well,
gee, thank you very much, because now that that meant that I was
my way to get up there. And I went up there and and exceeded
their expectations because they'd never heard of me. And then they said, oh,
wow, we want you to come back next season. First they wanted
me to come back as they always had a single attraction, and then Freddie
Sweethan was from there and they would have a partner for Freddie that would be
the Tag Champions underneath whoever the featured heel was. So they said, we
want you to come in next year for the whole season as Freddie Sweet Hands
Tag part. Wow, you know, and this is my first break in
the business. And stan Stasi Act was supposed to be the top single from
that and about it was less than two weeks, might have been ten days,
around two weeks before Vince McMahon Senior call stan Stasi Act to give him
a starting spot in the New York territory. Well, you know they they
they set up there and said, well, god, we can't tell Stan
that he can't go because we're counting on him being here. They understood the
business to know that you couldn't hold a guy back when he's got the chance
to go work for the for the for the big promotion up there. So
then I think in the car, and that day I said to Leo Burker
said, you know you've had You've had Archie Goldie, You've had Killer Carl
Croup, You've had all these big, big monster heels up there. So
what if you changed the formula one year? Because I'm tall, I look
bigger in the ring than what I actually am. But I'm I'm a braggadocious
talking heel, a chicken shit heel, totally different than everything that you've had.
You've had the parade of monsters. And he's kind of listening, And
so I rode with him. The next day he said, I talked to
Rudy and I threw out you know what we talked about, and all he
said it was a hum and then didn't say anything more. I didn't say
anything more. Then the next day I'm with him again, and he says,
John, They said, Rudy called back, and he said the more
he thought about it, the more intrigued he was. The idea about gone
with a chicken shit wrestling heel rather than trying to find another monster. So
he said, you were coming in any way as a tag team partner,
and he said, now you know you're going to be the feature heal.
He said, the only thing they're worried about is they wanted me to go
start drinking a six pack every night and try to put on ten or twenty
pounds, because I was like, I'm over six feet tall, but I'm
about you know, two twenty eight two, I wasn't two sixty so and
so that was my break for a top spot and went up there and it
ended up I had been making I spent two years in Charlotte. My first
year in Charlotte, I think I averaged two hundred and seventy dollars a week.
Now, they didn't run on Sundays, and that doesn't sound like a
lot of money, but you go back into the seventies, that two hundred
and sixty was like seven fifty. At the time. It was big,
much bigger money. Than anybody could work on any regular job. And I
went up to the KNA Maritimes. It was twenty three weeks and they had
their biggest season ever up there, and I averaged over a thousand dollars a
week for twenty three weeks, and it opened the door for me to go
to Rilla from there, where I was featured in because they had seen me
and I was I was already set to go there and told that I would.
I would get two tours of Japan and it just it was like a
momentum momentum thing, and I had met Um, I met Dorry Funk was
the reigning champion. So Dorry, you know, told me privately, said
boy. I said, you know you would do so good in Amarillo.
He said, but I got to be careful because I get in trouble if
if they think that I'm even talking to talent. And I wouldn't want you
to up and leave abruptly. But when you ready to make you move,
I can guarantee you a top spot in UH in Amarillo. And then they
had a big show in Greensboro and uh Dory was defending the world title and
Terry Funk and Dorry Senior came in on the same card for a tag match
under Dory Funk defending the title. So Dorry says, my brother's coming in
and my father's coming into Greensboro. I'd like for you to come down early
and come to the hotel, and I'd like to introduce you and have them
meet you. So I went down, got the phone call and went down
to Greensboro early. They went by the hotel and met Terry for the first
time, met Senior for the first time. And when I left there,
I went to the Maritimes for the summer. I got the phone call.
That's when Senior had died of a heart attack. So it was the only
time I ever saw him and met him. And they just, uh,
well, you're going up to the You're going up there for the summer,
and we're telling you right now you'll have a top spot when you're done there,
come to Amarillo, and we'll guarantee you that you'll have at least two
trips to Japan for Giant Baba. So it just was a momentum thing.
And uh, well, if anybody was ever wondering your career as a wrestler,
and uh it is, it's very rich. I mean you and you
were a main liner, you're a main eventor and uh but but like you
said, right place, right time, and a lot of these opportunities and
getting back to when we were, you know, talking about the the formation
of the Four Horsemen? Was it? What was we're going back before that.
I went to Florida as a wrestler and uh uh Stomper left to go
to Tennessee with uh with barcatt Right as his manager. Didn't work out.
So he calls me in Florida and I and I was the middle of the
court. I had, you know, I was figured in there and finally
happy to be there and working for Ddie Graham. And he said, the
thing didn't work out. I've got to leave here. I got to get
out, and he said. I made a couple of calls, and he
said, I have a main event spot in Dallas with Fritz and Red bast
sins a booker. But he said I need a manager. And he said,
have you ever thought a manager? And I said no, And he
said, well, I just I've heard your interviews. I worked with you,
and he said your interviews are unique, they're different. And he said,
I think as a manager that you'd be. He said, I'd love
to have you as a manager to go into Dallas and we'd be going in
with the main event spot. And I said, well, I need to
call him and he said nope, And so I had a starting date,
went in and that was the beginning. I mean I went in on top
with Stomper into and then what happens is Stomper Stomper, Yeah. And Stomper
sometimes could be his own worst enemy. He would he had trouble with depression
and if some little thing would trigger him where he'd say, oh, they
ah, they don't really have any plans for me here. I mean,
he would talk himself into what was a positive situation and by the time he
was done talking, he'd have you depressed. And it was so his safety
net was going back to Calgary where he was originally from, got his break
and all he had to do was pick up the phone and get Stew on
the phone, and Stu would have him booked the next day so he could
leave. And he was never like, well if I leave here, where
am I going to go? He called Stew and he had a spot.
So that's what happened. He wasn't happy heave he leaves. So Red tells
me, he said, well, Stomper just up and they said we can't
get a hold of him. So I said, well, I'll go buy
the house. And he had rented a house. I go by the house.
I look in the window, no furniture, nothing like I I called
Red, I said, Rent, I could be off here, but I
think he's done. I said, he's gone. Oh man, he said.
And they already had the best thing invested in me. And he said,
well, first thing we want to make clear is we're going to figure
out you're you know you're gonna stay, and you're figured in. And so
the first thing that they brought they brought in lining out of San Francisco,
Moondog, Maine. And so I had a whole trail of guys that I
managed, and there was the beginning of my my man, my managerial career
out of Dallas was a whole whole new thing for me. Yeah. See
how that's the road goes, You just keep following it. Yeah, yeah,
even as as you guys are out there, as the legend goes,
you come out for a promo with these guys and uh arn happens to say
something that catches on and and uh, now you got two rings. Yeah,
and that and that's how that how it happened that I was I was
in. I left and I went to going back to Florida. Left Florida.
Actually I was hoping to uh to some day because I again, when
I started full time, I was almost twenty eight years old. So I
knew that that my my years, you know, going in the ring were
we go, We're numbered, And so I knew that I had to learn
the television production and the whole other facets of the business, and that I
couldn't count on my career being able to make me a good living. And
so that's what I did. I watched how television was produced, how a
show was put together, and how everything was timed. So I became a
student of the game. And Dusty came back to Florida, had a little
bit of a run, and then I was going to go. I wanted
to. I had an interest back in the Canadian Maritimes of wanting to be
a promoter, having an interest, so they wanted me to come back up
there and offered me like twenty five points of the promotion for no money,
just me as a talent coming up there and in the meantime email Duprey,
who used to run without television and he never wanted to make the risk of
being obligated to the expense of having to run the television every week. He
meanwhile, had taken over where the other promoter where Rudy Kaye had the TV
and he kind of got his feet wet, and so I wanted to go
back up there, and he he Emil didn't didn't want to. He didn't
want to step aside. So the TV station gave the promoter up there,
um and they weren't going to give him the spot on the major television,
but it was the first year for cable television in the Maritimes, so they
were going to give the other the promoter that I had worked four years ago,
who had been the announcer, they were going to give him a one
hour spot on the on the infant cable network that was starting, so okay,
and Eddie Graham had me doing it. Gave me the full run of
the tape libraries and I did like six intro things that air and ahead of
time. But I learned a lesson that cable being in its infancy. The
whole thing is how many eyeballs are seeing you, And they had a great
spot. It was the beginning, which if it had been two years later,
it would have been entirely different. But it was cable television starting and
had a very limited audience. There weren't enough eyeballs in it. And I
was there a couple of weeks and the guy had given me a guarantee and
I and you know, he owned an ad agency, and we could see
that it was going nowhere because they didn't have the eyeballs for the TV.
And I went to him and I said, look, I can't in good
conscience to take your guarantee money every week if cable television is just starting.
If we had done this two years down the line, and it would be
a totally different story. And I said, I can't stay here and take
your money. And I said you, I don't want to see you lose
your house and everything that you own to try and make this when I can
see the writing on the wall that we were two years too soon. And
he thanked me. He said, there's other people that would have come up
here and expect me to keep paying him, And what you're saying would have
would have been true. So now I'm calling Dusty. I've only been I've
haven't even been going three months. I called Dusty and I said, well,
it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I was going
to have an ownership in the thing, but cable television is just starting to
Dusty says, just stop right there. He said, I have just made
a deal to go in and run. Jim Crockett is going to accelerate the
thing and he's going to run the Carolinas and he's bringing me in as the
booker. And he said, you're going to be with me. We're partners
again. And I said wow. And I said I need to call Jimmy
Crockett and he said, nope, your things, get in your car and
head for Charlotte. And he said, I will have a deal in place
for you. And he said you will be okay, don't worry. Said
all right, Jane, And that's what I did. I left and went
to Charlotte, and Dusty had had worked it out for a decent guarantee to
get me started. And that was the beginning of what ended up an incredible
run. And then, like you say, Arne had been down in Pensacola,
and he came in and he did that one interview that, uh,
you know, we still talk about today where he and they had put me
with Tully and and Oliott initially, and so Arne came in and he did
that thing on TV where he says, take a good look at your screen.
He said, never have four guys monopolized the industry as we are now.
He said, you'd have to look in your history books to try and
find some something comfortable. When he said you'd have to look at the Four
Horsemen and the Apocalypse and held up four fingers, it just theres a throwba
throwaway line because aren't always always was thinking and his interviews be different. So
we go to Greensborough that night and the whole first row of people were dressed
with shirts and ties on which I did then, and they're holding up the
four fingers and they're yelling horsemen and it was like a week or week to
two went fine. Jimmy Crockett said, what's this four horsemen crack I keep
hearing about. I said, I suggest that maybe you kind of embrace it,
because I said, it's not something it's a seed that arn't through out
there in that moment, and it had and had legs with the fans and
they're the ones running with it. They're the ones and that it's going to
be successful because it's their idea. And he was true, it was true,
and it just it took off and and that histored into a forest.
I mean, is it. Oh, it's amazing you look back that you
know as mut even today you see you know, the people, they see
you guys as all the four fingers. I mean, it's there's nothing really
in sports entertainment that you know. There's maybe a few things, but that
stand out more than that. All you have to do is hold up the
four fingers. And I'm sure and and Arne it was because Arne used to
really think and have tried to have different interviews, and he said, take
a look at these four people. He said, to draw it to try
and find a comparison of anything that that four people would totally dominate the industry
they're in. He said, you'd have to go away from wrestling and you'd
have to go back to four horsemen in your pod cups held up four fingers.
And that night in Greensborough, I remember fans are yelling horsemen and holding
up four fingers and from the ring, even if we couldn't hear them or
didn't know who he were, we would just give the four fingers signed back
and it just grew from there. I remember going to behind me and then
we did an outdoor show and there were like sixty thousand people there and I
remember looking up and you could just see the people holding their hands up.
That it became something that they were a part of. Well, and you
mentioned JJ that it wasn't like you guys worked together all the time, you
didn't have to do just when you were identified together. I think you called
a infection, but that you also you genuinely liked each other. I mean,
you hung out. So it really was the four horsemen. It was.
It was four guys who genuinely got along with each other. And to
this day, you know, you know, Arn has become my closest friend
in the business. And he called me the other day. We got a
show coming up, and he texted me and he said, I'm I'm excited
that I'm going to get to see us so you and I can have some
time together. I mean, it's just there's a it's hard to believe.
I mean, it is after all these years, all these decades that and
in this business you have business associations and the number of really true friendships is
a very small circle. And that was what was unique about about the horsemen
thing, that h you know, whether it's armed, and especially with Tully
because or with Barry too. When I was working Amarillo and Mulligan and Murdoch
bought the territory and Barry was Barry was hauling the ring. I wanted so
bad to be a wrestler, and Jack would have no, would not hear
of it. I mean you, you couldn't even you. He didn't want
to incur his wrath by even mentioning it. And so Barry used to tell
me. And so one night, I think it was Fort Stockton, So
I told Barry, I said, it won't be advertised, don't say anything
to anybody, bring your tights and and we'll have an opening match that's not
advertised. And I went in and you could tell from the first moment that
we locked up that here's somebody kind of like almost looking back myself when I
started a referee, that nobody ever trained me, but I saw so much
that I mimicked what I was seeing and came across as being experienced and polished
because I had seen it so often. And that's what happened there. And
it was easier to ask Jack's forgiveness rather than asking for permission if Barry could
wrestle. And it was like after I thought, oh boy, you know
I'm gonna have I don't want to fight Jack, but he you know,
And it was like once it was done, Jack wasn't angry. He would
never give his permission if you kept asking, but once it had happened,
and it wasn't like saying positive things about somebody just because of who they were.
He just was that talented. He was a natural, natural talent and
Jack wasn't mad. And that was the beginning of Barry is probably as good.
I can't think of anything better in my entire career. I've had three
thousand and two hundred matches. I've been around the business for for forever,
and as far as a talent that had the size, had the youthful good
looks, and had and had the ability in the ring to do anything and
everything, I don't think there's anybody better than Barry Wyndham. That's saying a
lot, and there were quite a few other horsemen who stepped in here and
there. Uh, what's the real story with by all, Olie didn't last
in the Horsemen. Olie at the time his son was when you're in high
school and wrestling as an amateur, and Olie wanted to go to all of
his high school meets to see his son wrestle. And so that's the reason
that Olie wasn't there a lot. And so he ended up getting eased out
of the thing. Arne came in and and it wasn't There was no hard
feelings because Ollie was doing he was living his dream seeing his son wrestle and
being able to go and see him and not be hurting the promotion where he
had made his living. So sometimes things just work out and that and and
that, that's what happened in that after. But and Olie, Olie was
up in years and um he when you looked at the like with Flair doing
well the limousine ride and jet flying kiss stealing son of a gun, with
the other guys not even with me, you know, it's like I could
sit there with this like silly grin on my face. That is like,
okay, the old party. You know he's loving hanging with the guys and
being around the chicks. Only it didn't work no matter how you tried to,
no matter how you tried to paint it, sell it. It does
he now, we could we buy the we buy the package. But yeah,
you mentioned Rick. God, I can't even imagine what it must have
been like to be around him every night. Oh oh god, no sleep.
Yeah, just constant partying and yet never missing a beat in the ring
somehow just he's the greatest champion of reasons. Yeah, I've seen you.
I mean, Luthez for twenty five years was champion. But in terms of
you know, the modern era, uh, nobody better than Flair. I
mean he and he lived the gimmick, you know, the robes and when
he was starting in the Carolinas, you know, he hired the limousine and
the driver. So he invested in his career and and had the talent to
live the back in the persona and backed all up he did. And again
I just right place at the right time. That was my you know,
all these pieces came together and I was always a part of it. Uh,
I say, the luckiest guy in the world. And I, as
we mentioned, the the McMahon to McMahon and then uh you know, and
it's when we uh kind of met up back then and with the WWF when
you arrived, Um, was that another opportunity? Did you see it was
time to go? Or were you looking forward? Or did it come to
you? How did how did the arrival in in uh you know, the
other completion of this this life mission of yours to be involved with the McMahons.
How did it come about? Well, the thing that h Terry Garvin.
Terry Garvin had been in working with Crockett, and I'd worked to get
Terry ran Towns and so he and I worked very very closely together, and
um, he was close friends with Pat Patterson, and I met Pat one
time when he came came and visited with Terry. And of course I'd heard
heard about Pat and he and Stevens and all the records that they broke in
California and up in Innneapolis, and uh, you know, he just had
the reputation of being not only a great in ring talent, but a great
mind for the business too, And just uh trying to think of where I
was going, but in terms of an opportunity up there, um, Terry
Vince was gonna gonna let's see, Crockett was Crockett was selling the promotion,
and so it was like everything was up in the air about what was going
to happen to everybody. And this new company was that was buying the promotion,
but they weren't wrestling people and what was going to happen. So everybody
was kind of looking for, um, maybe an escape hatch if necessary.
So Terry went to went up first and he was going to go run towns.
And so Terry would come to me and he'd say, you know,
they're looking at going the next step, and he said you your name was
mentioned a lot, and he said a lot of good things are being said
about you. And they said. The thing is though, because you're here,
And I think I don't know if I had a contractor to run out,
and I think it did, and I would, so I didn't actually
have a contract. And he said, but they there, they don't want
to call you. You would have to call them. And that's how it
happened. So one day I wor worth looking into and so I called Terry
one day and there's oh god, wait and hold on, let me go
get Pat he goes next to the end of the next office springs in.
I hear the door slam. Pat. Pat's on the phone and he said,
oh, I hear so many great things about you, looking forward to
meeting you. And so it was right before holidays, and I was going
to to uh go up to New York with my they we weren't married yet.
We were married that following year, but I was going up to New
York and we're going to do shopping in New York City and I was going
to stay in Manhattan to marry a Marquis. So Pat, they said,
well, Vince, Vince would like to personally meet you, and he said,
he doesn't nobody in the office knows that there's been any conversation, because
if the conversation didn't go anywhere, he doesn't want to jeopardize what you have
in Atlanta by word getting out. And he said, so this is something
that nobody in the office even knows. So I was at the Marriott Marquis
and I was told that a car would be sent in and let him him
take me up and not take me to the office, but take me to
Vince's house. And I remember I got there. Yeah, in Grantwich a
few minutes early, and Vince came in finished his promos and TV and didn't
even have time to take the makeup off. Came in, sat down,
and so he he said that he wanted to offer for me a job,
and he said, but I'll be honest with you. He said, I'm
not looking at you as an on air talent, and I said, well,
I don't have a problem with that. To start with, he said,
I'm here, I've heard so many good things about your attention to detail
television production. I mean, your background is so varied and complete in our
industry. And he said I would hire you for that, but with the
understanding that I'm not looking for you to go on TV. And said,
well, that's not a problem with me, because I mean I've had my
share of exposure in the limelight and the chance to come work for you and
what have you. So he offered me, he said, and I said,
the only thing is my year before I had my best year in the
business, which back in those days, I made a two hundred and twenty
thousand dollars that year, which with the salaries of Guy's mate today is nothing
but back. And then that was that was a lot of money, and
I said, the only thing is, I said, I don't want to
take He said as a salaried employee, said it's different than being a talent.
I said, I understand that, but at the same time, I
don't want to take a huge step back salary wise. I mean, I've
gotta so Vince said, okay, let me think about it. So I
think Vince said I'd made two twenty and he said he was going to put
me on salary with full benefits and everything for like two hundred thousand. And
it was before I got married and we were living together. And I said,
let me go home and run it by her. And I said,
I'll give you an answer the next day. And I took the offer,
which never looked back from, and which was very generous, very very generous.
Good run. How would you describe though your position? Because I remember
you doing everything. I just remember you would be in when we'd be doing
interviews, you'd be in the box, you were talking to talent, you
were running between fans. I mean, how how how would you describe your
position? Well, I wasn't it wasn't about a title that that wasn't important
to me, and it's basically my body at work. I had done just
about everything that you could possibly do, from put the ring up, the
referee into whatever. And I understood the makeup of a television show and producing
a television show and being able to uh manage talent, I mean not manage
talent and in the traditional manage on TV as a manager, but but be
able to handle a roster and deal with people because there, you know,
it's like anything else different being are all different. Baseball manager, you had
to know all these personalities, yes, yes, And the thing is,
my background was so varied that really I had done at all, so the
matter or who I was talking to, I could relate to whatever their position
was at that time. And I had walked to my aisle on their shoes,
so I knew how to talk to them. I knew what they wanted
to talk to about, what was important to them, and so you know,
timing wise, it just all fell in place for me. And I
keep keep saying I'm the luckiest guy in the face of the earth, But
I really paid my dues, and it was the whole body of my work
and the longevity that prepared me for that moment to be able to put in
that position and make that kind of money, you know, And I used
to what always amazed me about you guys that were you know, I didn't
mind revolving around that sun. That was nice, you know, to be
a planet or a moon or mooney out there. But you guys were like
close as you could get. I mean, eventually you got a melt.
I don't know how you could do it. But what was it like?
Because I know, I mean, I don't know if you were around Vince
twenty four seven, like Pat and Bruce were on call at any time yet,
but was a same thing for you and very much in the world.
Did you balance that? I was in the office suit and tie all week
and all the and all the care and Vince was hands on. He didn't
look at you know, if it was a poster for a pay per view,
he had to give his stamp of approval, so he would come in
and out of meetings. But all of the creative was done on the weekends
in his home and Grantwich, and so it was really a seven day a
week thing. But I was being paid paid good money and got along with
Pat, and Pat understood Vince. Yeah, that's a secret and Vince's likes.
He knew Vince's likes and dislikes, and so the things that he knew
Vince didn't like. Pat would never allow that to be put out in the
table because he said, Vince won't like that. We won't even ever bring
that up. And we knew what he did like. And I got along
with Pat, I really did, and we would work. It was like
when we would do the back those days we were doing three three different television
shows and we were taping every third week and doing three days and doing three,
you know, three hours of TV and then a dark match, and
it was like it really was. I mean, I don't know, I
don't know how anybody survived, especially but then you guys would get into you
know, getting the jet and finished home. But then I think he went
to the house too. I don't know when Vince McMahon ever slept, And
when you guys did either, it was he he would Vince would uh.
He never asked anybody to do anything that he didn't do himself. And he
would have He would have a legal pad on his night stand with the pencilona
he would wake up in the middle of the night, turning the light on
whether it was a dream or a thought that came to him and for fear
that he would forget about it in the morning. I think it was just
a dream. He would jot it on that tablet. And so he was
really into the business and just just a brilliant man with what he's done and
where he's taking the business. And I, you know, I got along
with Vice and we would work all day at his house. We'd be out
by the pool and I watched Stephanie grow up. Didn't see Shane that much
because he was running around with his buddies, but Stephanie would be there with
his girlfriends, splashing in the fashion in the pool, and we'd be under
the commander case it rain and you have a bank of wounds and and Pat
and I had a great big ledger that would have because we were running three
towns a night, and it was frustrating it sometimes because we would do TV
every third week and we would have three blank sheets for the three weeks of
TV that we were having to produce the next day, and we would start
on a Saturday and thence. Instead of getting those sheets and writing anything down,
he would go to WrestleMania the following year, that maybe ten months eleven
months away, and he wanted an idea in his own mind of what his
main event was going to be for that WrestleMania, and then he would say,
I could do this for Royal rumb I could do this for a challenge
and whatever, and he wanted to back up from there, which which was
good strategic planning. The only thing in the wrestling business. If you if
in the if he had this great plan with Ultimate Warrior and all of a
sudden, the Warrior tries to hold him up at the garden for money,
in Vince fires him. You might as well take that plan and just shread
it now you got that was in a way frustrating that you would spend all
that time for that long range plan that was susceptible to h and you're worried
about the part before. Yeah, uh crazy. But but we we you
know, we would uh we would do the TVs and we would book the
towns and we would you would have the main town, so you would have
to have like two main events and then your other town it was like usually
a B town and a C town, and then we would get them down
and then Vince would that Pat and I would then we would have a roster
with a list of It was very well organized. I learned a lot.
I'd have a sheet within all the names of the heels, kind of in
the old pecking approximate pecking order of importance, and all the bate and you'd
be able to scratch talent out and place them, move people around. It
was very structured, all thought out, and with people who had been in
the business all their life that like with Pat and myself, you know,
we could just make it work. And we had such a successful run in
there, and they understand was that everything. Vince took credit for everything and
good and no no dame never mentioned for anything that wasn't good. And we
would have this big, big ledger with the things, and so we finally
wrote things and change things and move stuff around. And invariably when we went
to TV, Vince would sit in front of the room, opened his ledger,
and then he would do the production meeting, presenting it as if everything
came from him right there, and Pat and I would have our books in
the back, and we'd already if we had done all this together, and
what would have happened or not. It didn't happen all that often, but
sometimes things would change, Oh let's do then we race this and move somebody
here, and Vince would forget to make the change in his book. Now
he's up there starting to go and all of a sudden, I look at
Pat. Pat looks at me, and I raised my hand in back of
the room yesterday and I said, Vince, I have a note here that
I think you changed your mind and said that you wanted to do this.
Yes, I forgot, you're right, I just you know, how to
present it was my thinking. I didn't write it that it was still Vince's
idea coming from him, ablematically, and because because we weren't there too,
it wasn't there about trying to send the message all these people. Well,
you know, you all think it's Vince, but you know we didn't have
that. We were paid well and the system worked well, and we didn't
need to send the send the impression that somehow that we were such an important
part of Yeah, it was just it was amazing how they put that all
together. And as I mentioned, you know, you you're revolving around the
sun, which is Vince, and eventually it's it's it's too much. I
don't know how Pat lasted for as many years as he has and Bruce's back,
But what was it? I mean, was it to a point where
it was, you know, it was too much? Because like you said,
Vince doesn't expect any anybody to do anything he doesn't do. But he's
a maniac as far as yes, his work ethic, yep, so too
much or what finally did it come down to it? I call it the
seven year itch. And you you hear about it in personal relationships that you
know, they get together and after seven years they just get so tired of
each other or something that that that what you were tolerating during this thing of
seven years reaches a point where it's not tolerable anymore much. And I think
with Vince it was the same way. Really, I was there seven years,
and yeah, it just reaches the point where you know, and you
your family gives it up a lot because you're in the office all week.
You're and I didn't have to go I don't and went to the garden and
um, but we if we didn't have the guarden, we had we worked
at the house on weekends and very solid and you a lot of times didn't
know you couldn't plan anything. And Pat, Pat had Louis. At the
time, it was still living and so Pat didn't have a life. I
had a family, and I wanted to be Lindsey and I got married,
but while I was there, but I wanted to be with I want a
time with her. I wanted some kind of balance in my life. Pat
didn't have that same need because he had Louis and they'd been together twenty five
years and his personal situation was different than mine. And I was willing to
work all week, work on weekends, but then I did want some time
with my family, and that that uh, that sometimes was a struggle to
be able to get that time. And my wife was very understanding. We
were we did well financially. I was you know, like I say,
Vince had a jet and very few people flew on it, but I was
one of them. And Vince would have it catered with, you know,
with shrimp and lobster, and now, I mean those things not as important
to me, but at the time it's nice that because you're working so hard
and there are some sacrifices with your family. So these were some of the
little things that whether I mean Vince wanted it for Vince, but he also
wanted you to be included because that was a way of kind of doing something
for you too, that to show his appreciation for left. Was it a
conversation with Vince that you have Did you tell him I just can't do this
anymore? How did it? How did it end with you too? He
brought in a girl. He brought in a one a girl. She was
a woman. Uh that uh uh. She was in charge. She in
the peck and chain. She was actually I was an executive vice president,
but she was above me and I reported to her. And she her two
brothers were connected with the NFL, and so she she was a player.
And um, we would go to the to the hotel on the road,
and of course she'd be on the hotel too, and then she we go
up there to check in and she's and I want to ruin night next to
JJ, you know, and it's like yeah, and nothing ever happened,
but it was the perception of what might be going on that she yeah,
you know where I'm going. It just and yeah, and it kind of
at times made me uncomfortable, but uh, she was my boss and uh
uh, And I would like if we would go to a TV in Baltimore.
We would drive Baltimore. She had a a flat in in Manhattan.
So she said, well, I want you to come in and pick me
up and I want to drive with you. Say okay, So I would
I would go into Manhattan and pick her up and she would come out and
she'd have a I had a sweet tooth, and she had a bag with
all these candies that I liked, and she'd put them in the middle of
a console and um, he felt kind of built her rest. It just
it both ways. It can happen. I don't want to say has Yeah,
harass is maybe too strong a word, but but it was, um
yeah, yeah. It was enough that I wasn't comfortable and and it was
like I think Vincent pat Well, it's like if you see somebody that's that
steps on a hot payment and asked to dance because of Peter Burne. I
think Vincent Patton enjoyed, knew it, could see what's going on. And
she was an older woman and I'm Lindsay. Lindsey was thirteen years younger than
me. I had a young woman and a young wife, good, really
good looking, and so they they enjoyed watching me having to try and yeah,
watching me squirm around what was obviously somebody with her. You know,
we check out, I'm my room, make sure my room is next to
JJ, you know, and Patton Vince would looking older eyes, little smirk,
and I'd have to just sit there with a straight face. You know
what. It also sounds like you were ready at that point, is that
true? Yeah? After after seven years and I don't remember that, I
don't remember what part of what happened. Was the the legal thing and everybody's
salaries were cut for a period of time, and so that was a and
the salary was eventually restored. But uh, and after seven years, it's
like I ended up going to Atlanta and I had the exact same position.
I was executive vice president of Talent Relations. And basically I went for the
same money, maybe even a little bit more money, and end up staying
there seven years. So I've I've had a great career. I if I
remember when I went to uh Tusty's memorial service after Dusty passed, who God,
he was close for me, and and that was a tough one and
I was sitting there Flair and as Flair's wife, and I was sitting in
the in the thing, and incomes Vince, Lindau, Shane and Stephanie and
they sat in the row right in front of us. And then there was
a breaker. When the thing was over, Vince's out, and of course
everybody wanted to, you know, wanted to have their moment talk to Vince.
And I walked outside and all of a sudden, Vince turned around and
saw me and made eye contact and it's like JJ, you know, it
was like yeah, two old brothers that hadn't seen each other and family reunion
and runto and it was like, yeah, it was that corny running up
and he hugged me and I hugged him, and God, Invince, how
you doing. God you look great? Yeah, you look great. I
was thinking everything's going good, you know. And so I left with no
no bad feelings, no ill will, and I called the seven year rich.
I think, I think best of times because of the the demands that
the business has on you and demands on your personal life. You it's hard
because you can't do it part time or you can't do it halfway. It's
twenty four seven and consumes your whole life. It's all in and to be
successful. That's the commitment that you have to make. And I and knowing
where I came from and my history and the business, all of a sudden,
I'm a top executive for the greatest player in the business. That's a
global thing. I mean, people would have died to have my position.
And I never was. It wasn't an ego thing with me or I never
never went to my head. Trust me, I never went to my head.
I'm sure many many people would say that. In my last question JJ,
as we wrap up here, and one thing I really like about the
w W Hall of Fame is that they're not celebrating just time spent with the
wwfwwe. They're celebrating accomplished careers and and and it's full circle when I think
you guys stand on that stage. And so with that in mind, what
did it mean to you to be inducted? Meant a lot, because you
know, you hit, you get accolades for what you've done. And and
I I don't want to sound corny, but I am by nature of a
humble person, and I am thankful. And I and when I do interviews
in the ring, the last thing that I that I always try to say
is to point to the fans that are sitting there and to say that my
success was not because I was the biggest, the best, because I wasn't.
I was surrounded because a lot of times the Horsemen will be in the
other corner, and I was blessed to be able to be around guys.
But I said, the ultimate judge and jury for all of it is you
people sitting out here, because you're the people who saw us that there was
something that we had that garnered your attention, and that you people work hard
for your money and that you were willing to spend the money to come see
us. So it's you that I had that I salute who have supported professional
wrestling, have supported the Four Horsemen, and have supported me frying my entire
career. That's fantastic. And JJ, really it's been awesome chatting with you.
It's been a long time since we really got a chance to sit down
and chat. And I hope we can catch up on those baseball stories next
time we see each other. Let's have a beer. And I've got some
great but I know you got some other things going on, and you've got
another podcast happening. How can folks tune in to this version of the JJ
Dillon Show. Yeah, it's on at six oh five and on Saturdays,
and I think it's the Major League Wrestling Network. We've been doing it for
just a couple of weeks, and uh, the feedback has been excellent from
what I'm told. I don't listen. I've never listened to my own podcasts,
and I don't listen to other podcasts, so I don't know if it's
good or bad. But I am by nature of storyteller and um, people
who have commented the things that stick out to me that make me feel good.
Are we like that that when you do your podcasts and or any kind
of an interview, you're not an angry person. It's not like, you
know, you've had all the success, you have nothing to be angry about.
But a lot of people in this industry when they do an interview,
are angry about something or somebody or whatever, and you're not. And that
I don't. I don't use colorful language. I don't swear. I don't
swear at home, so why would I do it on an interview. It'd
be totally unlike me. And uh, I just as a kid sixteen years
old, I fell in love with wrestling, and I've had an unbelievable career
that just one thing fell in place for me after the other, and now
all of a sudden, you know, I'm in my seventies, and I
and I'm I've got two Hall of Fame rings, and I still get asked
to go and appear at shows and fan fests and things, and and I
still love getting out with the people and hearing their stories about what their memories
are of me, if if we've met before or hadn't. It never gets
old, never gets tired. Well, JJ, thank you so much for
coming on primetime. Thank you. I've enjoyed Primetime and I tend to get
long winded, but I hope your listeners have enjoyed the conversation and would love
to continue it at some time in the future.