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Hey, yo, what is up? Hardwood Knocks listeners. I am Dan

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Pavalley coming at you with a very
special guest. This time, I'm a

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reoccurring guest, one of my good
friends and colleagues, Grant Hughes. He

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is a national MBA writer for Bleacher
Report, and if you're not following him

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on Twitter, you can do so
at GT Underscore. Hughes spelt exactly as

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it sounds. New era of Hardner
would Knox where I'm going to try and

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streamline these these openings. So we're
just gonna get right into it after we

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shout out. Our sponsor has always
been online dot AG. You'll be hearing

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from them in a second. Grant, how are you doing tonight? I'm

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doing very well, and I think
I would like from now on you can

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make a note of this. I
would like to be referred to as a

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regular Can we do that? Is
there like a test I have to take

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or anything? No, I mean, if you want to be associated with

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this podcast, we'll count you in
the minority at this point, so you

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can absolutely be called the regular guest. I'm ready to do that. It

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sounds good. I brought you on
to talk about MBA Hard Truths, which,

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as you astutely pointed out, are
basically hot takes rebranded there we're not

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just the intention here, and I
you previewed some of yours with me,

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so I know you talked about the
same way. It wasn't really just fire

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off these like incendiary takes. It
was really just to talk about things that

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it feels like people it's awkward,
or people don't want to talk about it,

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or they don't fully believe. And
I think the way you phrased it

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before we got on, I can't
even remember what you said. Was it

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how did you put like the hate
to tell you this but type of thing

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that this is the to tell you
this but podcast? So right, although

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I don't really hate to tell anybody
this, but but yeah, no,

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it's like it is it's I don't
you know, the hot take is so

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stigmatized, but like that's sort of
what this is. And and I think

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we both have just done a little
rebrand. But no, it's not like

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a crazy We're not saying anything crazy. It's just kind of like, hey,

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pay attention to this. This is
a real thing, I think,

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and you might not like it,
maybe is another way to put it.

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If you're a fan of a specific
team, perhaps you won't like it.

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And I think it's I think it's
good to go through this exercise with the

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MBA projected to restart. And I
don't have to ask you about the NBA's

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restart plan because as a regular guest, we've already talked about that is the

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first podcast. I don't have to
lobby that question out there. Would you

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like to start us off, though? What is your first hard truth?

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Yeah? So this is a good
hard truth I think, certainly for the

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Toronto Raptors. And this is like
I'm definitely not diversifying my hot take or

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hard truth assets very well because this
is kind of my go to. And

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I did a bold predictions piece today
that I'll go up I think tomorrow.

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And if I were a gambling man, I would have put some money down

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on the Raptors at like plus fourteen
hundred to win the title, and that

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is that everyone should be freaking out
about the Toronto Raptors. And if you're

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a Toronto fan freaking out in a
good way, if you're another title contender,

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that might make the mistake of overlooking
them in a bad way. And

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I will put you on the spot
and start it with this because this sort

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of frames my thinking on why I
think the Raptors absolutely belong with the LA

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teams and the Bucks on the shortlist
of like, quote unquote, if this

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team won a title this year,
I would not be remotely surprised. And

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the question is is there a matchup
and we're talking playoffs, don't whatever you

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want to talk about these this eight
game run up? We can, But

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is there a team that, as
you're thinking about a playoff series against Toronto,

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you say to yourself, oh,
man, like this this is a

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bad matchup for the Raptors. Do
you like it's kind of rhetorical, but

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but is there anyone that is out
there that you're like, Oh, that's

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gonna be rough specifically matchup wise for
Toronto? Are we? If you are

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we including potential finals matchups or no. Yes, yeah, I would probably

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only say the Clippers. And I'm
even like because the Bucks in fury should

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be just because there there is a
chance that, based off what we see

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in this season, there's that excuse
me, the Raptors have at least one

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of the two best players in that
series, if not two of them.

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When you go against the Clippers,
though, there's a chance that you're not

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going to have even one of the
two best players in that series. And

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it's probably the same case with the
Lakers because of Lebron and Ad. But

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the Clippers also have depth like to
go along with that, and they can

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play sort of like the Raptors where
they can shape shift their identity, particularly

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on defense. But I don't think, and this was probably the point of

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your question, I don't think there's
an easy answer to that because there might

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not actually be an answer. Yeah, I mean, obviously I was setting

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it up that way. I think
I do take your point, and I

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think I agree with you that against
most of the high against really those other

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three high profile teams, Toronto will
not have the best player. And to

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use the Clippers example, I think
actually the Paul George versus Pascal Siakam.

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Question is close enough to me that
like in a seven game series, it

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could tip towards Siakam. But the
way I look at it is, you

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know, this is a Raptors team
that you know, they're second in the

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conference there, I think, tied
for third in net rating, and they

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basically did not have their full complement
of rotation players healthy, like at all.

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They're They're projected starting five played seventeen
games together this year. And if

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if we assume, and I think
it's fair too, that everybody's ready to

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go, including Marcus Ol, who
I think still really matters against, say

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Joel Embiid. You know, Siakam's
healthy, Vanvleet's healthy, Norm Palwell's health,

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all that stuff. They just like
they just match up really well with

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everybody because in and Obi, I
think is about as good as you can

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do against high scoring, you know, star quality wings on the ball defender

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in the NBA. Right. See, I think that was a hot take

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like six months ago, but I
think liked percent agree. I just think

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that like everyone else is late to
this maybe, but yeah, that's where

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it starts. And I think Siakam, I mean, look, if you

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want to put Siakam on Paul George
or you know, if he's on Lebron

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or if he's on even a D
he's undersize, but like that's not a

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walkover matchup. Siakam, I think, is not in Annaobe's class as an

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on ball defender, but it might
be he's certainly better off the ball and

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he's gonna hold up. You've got
like think about a Lakers matchup in the

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finals, Van Fleet and Lowry going
against say like Caruso and Darren Smith or

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KCP who's fine, but like they're
going to run circles around those guys.

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There's just the more I thought about
it, you take the title experience,

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you take Siakam's leap, you take
Annaobe being healthy, which he wasn't last

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playoffs. You take Lowry just being
like validated as a real big game player

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now after that false narrative was gone. You take Nick Nurse, I think

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is the best like tactical coach in
the league. He's going to do a

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bunch of weird stuff, and he's
got all these healthy guys as options to

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kind of mess around with. Scheme
wise, I don't know, I definitely

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am like kind of firing myself up
too much because it feels like a you

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know, contrarian take, and that's
kind of a fun spot to be in.

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But I just I'm so all in
on Toronto, and I think teams

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and fans that are overlooking the Raptors
just because. I mean, I say

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just because, but since they don't
have Kawhi Leonard and Danny Green, I

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just don't. I just don't think
they can be overlooked and belong in that

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group of like absolute elite, elite
title threats. It's almost maybe I've followed

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too many Raptors people on Twitter because
that almost doesn't feel hot enough, I

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think. And I've been asked the
question a bunch, whether I'm on a

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podcast or radio spot, who do
you view as the biggest threat to Milwaukee

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in the East, And I think
it's Toronto. I know it's a no

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brainer, right. I know a
lot of people have thrown Boston out there,

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but now, yeah, look and
Gausaul, I'll be curious to see

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because you mentioned a potential matchup with
Embiid. I feel like that's the only

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area in which his weight loss might
hurt him when you're looking at what they

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might need him to do to help
with a Brook Lopez or a Janni's attent

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to Kompo just being lighter on his
feet. In general, he was already

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one of the smartest half court defenders
in the NBA. That should probably help

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him. But him beat is just
this monstrosity, and so I'd be curious

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about that. But they just have
so many different looks and players they could

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throw at you, and they're just
it's these random things that you know,

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if Nick nurse, depending on if
someone's injured, Oh do you want to

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play Randi Hollis Jefferson at center.
Yeah, I'll go do that. Terrence

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Davis. This is a Terrence Davis
fan club over here, just like like

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and Terrence Davis too, who I'm
fascinated by. He wasn't playing as much

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leading into the league shutdown, and
I think part of that has to do

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with Toronto's fascination or preference for Patrick
McCaw, which I don't necessarily agree with.

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But Terrence Davis could end up being
a swing piece in certain matchups because

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I feel like he can provide some
wing defense and he has this nifty second

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jump around the rim to follow his
own misses, even though he's only what

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is he six four or whatever he
is? So I really I like Toronto,

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and I agree that this is probably
a harder truth for people who are

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outside of Toronto or maybe aren't following
Toronto as closely, because I don't I

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think everyone expect did them to maybe
blow it up this year. They're like

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sort of the Toronto in Oklahoma City
or the two teams I've become like emotionally

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attached to this season, that's just
sort of this detached observer. Those the

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teams that I zero went on because
they you know, I thought I was

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higher on Toronto than most, but
I was like, oh, they'll get

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an at a boy five seed or
four seed, not two seed in the

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East. And so I'm an agreement
with you. I'm curious to know,

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just nationally how much that registers on
the hard truth scale, like Haws the

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perception turned or is it you know, Jason Tatum has played so well now

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that people are all Celtics or they're
infatuated with the heat, or they're still

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you know, looking at the Sixers. I'd just be curious to know what

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the cat more casual fan and that's
not an insult, what they think about

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the Raptors. Yeah. I mean
I think a lot of you know,

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this being a hot take or a
hard truth depends entirely on that. I

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just the other thing that I meant
to mention is that sort of as an

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additional thought exercise for the Raptors is
like just say they they draw Mill,

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they get they get Milwaukee in the
conference finals, and they just they solve

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them. Which I think if you're
going to pick a team to solve the

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Bucks, because the Bucks have this
rep I think somewhat deservedly as solvable because

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they're the most obvious, you know, adherence to system basketball in the league.

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Nick Nurse is the coach I would
pick to solve the Bucks. And

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Janie leaves that series thinking like while
I'm out of here, where should I

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go? And it's like it's an
open secret that Messi, Jerry and Toronto

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are targeting Jannie. It's like that's
just the thing. I think, casual

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or not, we can all agree
that that's been out there. So talk

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about why everyone should be freaking out
about the Raptors, which is my sort

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of headline for this take, like
there's there it is, because that's the

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second stage fall out of if Toronto
really performs, you know, as well

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as I think it could as they
end up with Jannis via trade. So

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I don't know, it's just that's
that's really the monster ripple effect that I

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think could come out. You mentioned
Jason Tatum, which I want to get

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to soon, but do you have
a ones of fire back at me before

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we talk Boston and Tatum. Yes, And this is sort of a polled

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one because I co authored bleacher Reports
Top one hundred players of the twenty season

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so far, so it was a
retrospective and the response was profuse profusely against

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Chris Middleton being ranked tenth. And
so my heart truth is this season,

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I'm not predicting what's going to happen
in the playoffs because I wouldn't put him

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at ten looking at the playoffs.
But this season Chris Middleton has added top

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ten value. Just one. I
think you need to look at the superstar

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pool this year, and guys who
are absent or just had such limited availability,

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you can't say they added top ten
value. Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry,

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even Paul George would normally be in
that discussion, but he hasn't really

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hasn't played a ton this year and
Kyrie Irving only playing in what was it

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twenty games or whatever it was,
So I totally recognize that in a normal

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season, Chris Middleton isn't a top
ten player this year though he absolutely is,

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and he's I know, I want
to use this more so to say

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by extension, I also think that
he is a capable number two on a

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championship team. And I know the
knock against him has been that he's not

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this conventional star, and I guess
you can say that because who wants to

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build around Chris Middleton. But the
Bucks are destroying opponents when Middleton plays without

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Janice Attenta Kopo this year, He's
actually locked more than seven hundred and fifty

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possessions without Attenta Coopo and Eric Bletsoe, and the Bucks have an offensive rating

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in the ninety nine percentile, and
they were similarly good last year as well.

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I know it fell apart in the
playoffs, but Janice also kind of

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didn't fall apart, but he struggled
in that series against the Raptors. And

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I really do think that people underestimate
Chris Middleton's own creation, like that is

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ingrained into his game. He runs
picking rolls into pull up jumpers, he

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shoots over missmassive mismatches, excuse me, an iso, and from the post

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to fade waves or business as usual
for him. He's off the dribble three.

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It's deployed in smaller doses, but
it remains effective. And he's the

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secondary playmaker that everyone's waiting for Jason
Tatum to be, which for now is

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why I would put Middleton ahead of
Tatum, at least relative to what's already

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happened this season. And they're not
complicated passes he's making, but he's just

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finding the right guy when he's coming
around screens. And so I believe,

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even in a normal season, that
Chris Middleton can be the number two on

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a championship team. And this,
I think is another hard truth. And

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I'm saying this after ranking Janni's attent
Tokoumpo as the best player in the NBA

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this season from what we've seen already, If he can't be, I think

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that actually says more about Yanis than
it may about Chris Middleton. Because if

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you need Stephan Curry to be your
number two, or you know, if

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you wanted to go to Dallas,
you need Luca dontage to be your number

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two. Like those are clear cut
number ones. And so if there's something

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about Jannie's games where his increased pull
up volume that fadeaway volume, it doesn't

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really help, you know, keep
the offense from getting bogged down in the

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half court during the playoffs. That's
not going to necessarily make me think any

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less of Jannie. But if you
need a top let's say, like,

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if you need a top ten player
to be your sidekick to win a title,

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I'm not I think that does in
fact say more about you than it

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would about a sidekick who this season
is going to make an All NBA team.

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And that might be the harder truth
for me to deliver, just because

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I love Jannis. But if you
yeah, and it's also it's a little

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hypocritical because Lebron has Amfie, Davis
Kawhi, Leonard has Paul George. But

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what is the gap separating Chris Middleton
from Paul George this season? I'm talking

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specifically about season. I think he's
added more value because he's been more available,

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But in the role that these two
are playing, where you know,

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he's seating volume to Yannis and George's
seating volume and status to Kawhi Leonard,

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I just don't see. Defensively,
yeah, there's probably a chasm there,

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but overall there's not like this huge
gap. And so if the honest at

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Tendacoopo can't win, or if the
Bucks can't win a championship with this team,

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and it's because someone like Middleton didn't
play up to snuff when not Tentacopo

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was struggling, I still think that
would probably say more about Janis as a

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number one, or at least just
as much as it would about Middleton.

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So the honest thing is fascinating to
me because you sort of are making me

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consider like big picture of questions that
I hadn't really before as they apply to

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him. And if you think it
just you know, you can't go back

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too far because the game was so
different, but if you look at it

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now, I really don't think you
can be a primary ball handling, perimeter

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oriented player, which is sort of
a fun key category to put Yannis in

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because you know he dominates inside so
thoroughly. But your weakness really can't be

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shooting. You can have other weaknesses
like so just using examples of some of

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the guys you mentioned, like Curry
is not a wing number one. He

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is the guy that opposing you know, playoff teams target defensively just sort of

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by default. But you know,
there are other players that have been imperfect,

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that have been the best players on
title teams. But the commonality in

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all of them is that they can
shoot. And I think this feeds into

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I would say that not only would
the Bucks sort of you know, disappointing

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or whatever because Middleton wasn't up to
snuff, say more about Janie than it

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what about Middleton. I think it
would say more about the constraints that a

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player like Jannie puts on a team
and the way that that forces certain types

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of like system ball that in the
playoffs, given enough time and enough scouting,

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can sort of get solved. And
I keep the second time I've used

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that, but like, you can't
be a solvable team and win a title

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that you have to. That's just
and with Yannest there is an exploitable weakness.

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I know he's willing to shoot more
threes, but I take your point.

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I think that if Middleton is not
good enough as your second option,

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and look, just as you were
talking, Middleton is one of five guys

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this year six with over sixty one
true shooting on over twenty six usage.

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That's you know, the others hardon
Davis Lillard Booker. I don't think it's

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a it's a hot take to say
that based on this year, Middleton is

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better than Tatum, better than a
lot of other potentially even bigger names.

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But it is really interesting to me
that Middleton might be the guy that gets

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wrongly undervalued or blamed if the Bucks
disappoint. Now, if he plays like

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he did in the last year's playoffs, that's different. But I feel like

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what you're saying is that based on
this season, it's not it's not really

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even controversial to say that he's a
top ten value. I think that's right,

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And I think the comparison to Tatum
is really interesting because I think Tatum,

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in addition to sort of doing this
weird thing where he ascended like over

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the span of a month, you
know, which just doesn't really happen in

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real time, which I think inflated
his league wide perception, but he also

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I think is perceived as having like
a different role than Middleton, like more

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of a primary creation role. But
to your point, Middleton's perfectly capable creating

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shots for himself for other guys when
Jannie is off the floor. So I

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do think that Tatum gets a little
bit of a boost, possibly undeserved,

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because he sort of fits the profile
as the top option wing you know,

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gets your own shot, get other
guys shots. That Middleton doesn't really get

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viewed that way, which I think
is wrong, and I think it's part

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of the reason that he isn't kind
of, you know, viewed as the

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no brainer, top ten value add
guy that Tatum maybe by some people is.

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I think Tatum and I'd probably diverge
from you, and that might be

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a good segue into the Tatum stuff. But I think Tatum's rise lasted longer

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that a month, and it was
just a little bit more gradual, and

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that it was really only highlighted for
that time. So but yeah, the

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points on Middleton, like they're just
absolutely spot on for me. I mean,

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look, he was sixty fourth in
isolation and the sixty fourth percentile of

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00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:30,640
isolation efficient efficiency this season, eighty
six percentile as a scorer out of the

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pick and roll, and he's someone
who can work as a spot up shooter

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if you need to. He's been
shooting the lights out from mid range again,

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and it seems like coach Budd has
just been like, yeah, just

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00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:44,519
let the volume fly. I'm gonna
lose that battle anyway. Eighty third percentile

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of post up efficiency too, which
isn't a huge part of his game,

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but there are just so many things
he could do as a score that even

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if you don't think in a vacuum, he's not a top ten player in

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a regular season. So I would
use this more to inform the other truth,

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which is I think he's apps abolutely
a viable number two on a title

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team. Yeah, I think that's
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online wagering experts. Let's jump to Tatum,

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who, like I think actually right
now, that's what Tatum is like,

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skill wise and value wise. But
I think the perceptive. Do you

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agree that the perception of Tatum is
that sort of he's really right on the

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00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:02,119
CUSP board, maybe is already ready
to be like the number one guy to

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lead a maybe not necessarily a title
team, but a team to the finals.

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Do you feel like that's how he's
kind of come to be viewed now.

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Yeah, And I think I actually
might even be among the people that

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view him in that light. So
here's my pushback against that. And I

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guess this is this is just the
hard truth. I just don't think he

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is as good right now. Not
saying he won't be that guy eventually.

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He's still really young. I don't
think he's that good now. And I

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think what I have a problem with, or what sort of gives me pause

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00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,599
about sort of his profile, is
that, you know, I think you're

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right, I've maybe oversimplified it that
he had a hot month. It's very

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clear that he's added like his bag
is so much deeper now, he gets

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00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,680
to the basket a ton more often
than he used to. His handles tightened

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00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,359
up a lot. He has a
bunch of one and two dribble moves out

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a triple threat to just roast guys. His step back is a lot better.

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00:23:56,079 --> 00:24:00,680
But the breakout sort of narrative to
me, kind of got built on

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00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,480
the fact that he just hit every
pull up three he took for a really

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00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,599
long time, and it's it is
again an oversimplification, but he hit forty

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00:24:08,599 --> 00:24:14,240
eight forty eight point seven percent of
the six point three pull up threes he

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00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:18,680
attempted per game in February. Forty
eight point seven percent of high volume pull

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up threes seems high. Seems high. Here's how high it is. Damian

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00:24:23,279 --> 00:24:26,799
Lillard is the best pull up three
point shooter in the league this year.

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00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,559
Among guys that shot at least four
per game, he shot forty point one

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00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:36,440
percent. So Tatum is way better
in this month one month span, which

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00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:40,559
I'm cherry picking a little, but
I do think February is when the narrative

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00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:45,440
started of oh, Tatum is it. He's not gonna hit almost half of

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00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,400
his pull up threes at high volume
ever, first of all, because nobody

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00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,039
does, but certainly not in a
playoff run. So well, I do

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00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,359
think Tatum is on the very short
list of guys that, like, you

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00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,720
know, twenty five, one hundred
or whatever, that I want to build

354
00:25:00,759 --> 00:25:04,119
a franchise around. As he exists
as a player right now, I think

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00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:11,519
he's getting a little too much clout
from totally unsustainable outside shooting. And I

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00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:14,240
don't know if that's hot because I
maybe the hot take, because maybe that's

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00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:18,559
been said, but just sort of
four months removed from watching basketball, that's

358
00:25:18,559 --> 00:25:22,799
really settled into me as like a
narrative that kind of got away from us

359
00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:26,480
a little bit. So I think
he's just scoring so well and difficult in

360
00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:30,200
so many difficult situations that I don't
know that we can call it a fluke,

361
00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:32,680
Like, no, he's not gonna
hit half of his pull up threes

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00:25:33,079 --> 00:25:36,720
before the season. Among everyone attempting
at least three pull up threes per game,

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00:25:37,079 --> 00:25:41,359
only Dame and carous Lavert shout out, carros Lavert are downing there is

364
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,519
at a better clip. Nicole Yokich
is the only player who has converted more

365
00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:49,359
looks inside four seconds of the shot
clock, and Tatum's fifty five point seven

366
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:55,640
effective field goal percentage inside four seconds
of the shot clock ranks first out of

367
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,519
one hundred and four players who have
fifty more, fifty or more of those

368
00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:03,480
attempts under their belt. And when
you combine that with they've basically doubled up

369
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,960
his pick and roll volume from last
year, the scoring to me is for

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00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:11,440
real. I don't know if there
will always be the tug of war between

371
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:12,880
can you get to the basket more? Like you already mentioned, I think

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00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,599
he's done a better job of that. It does feel like there could be

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00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,160
that push and pull, that ebb
and flow to it moving forward, and

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00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,880
that's mostly fine. I might just
be more concerned about, if they're going

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00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,640
to give him this much pick and
roll volume, can he turn it into

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00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:32,559
more playmaking, particularly in the playoffs
when presumably it gets harder to navigate these

377
00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:37,559
half court defenses. He has the
lowest assist rate of anyone in the league

378
00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:41,039
with his usage, and I've seen
him throw some like really nice passes.

379
00:26:41,079 --> 00:26:45,599
But if you ask me who has
the higher ceiling as a passer, lets

380
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,799
use caros Lavert as an example.
I think carros Lavert's a better going to

381
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:52,160
be a better passer, and there's
already a better passion than Jason Tatum.

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00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,960
Chris Middleton is is already there.
I don't know if he'll ever take that,

383
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,119
even that Kawai Leonard type leap.
And certainly I'm not even gonna include

384
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,640
this season when they had Kawhi running
like eighty million picking rolls at the start

385
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,799
of the year when Paul George was
out, So that might be something that

386
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,680
I'd be more concerned about moving forward. But I view his offense as basically

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00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:14,519
established at this point. And then
when you just combine that, I think

388
00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:18,119
he does have all NBA caliber defense. It's his workload is sort of streamlined

389
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,519
by Jalen Brown defends a lot of
the you know, bigger forwards and you

390
00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:26,480
have Marcus Smart there, but Tatum
provides really good help around the basket,

391
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,680
and he can make he makes them. You know, I would call him

392
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,200
safe gambles if there is such a
thing. So, just based on the

393
00:27:33,279 --> 00:27:37,359
impact he's had, I think it's
fair to wonder can he be the best

394
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,559
player on a championship team right now? But it definitely seems like he's headed

395
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,200
in in that direction. Yeah,
I think that's all I'm saying, I

396
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,880
would hate to make it sound like
I'm shitting on him as a as a

397
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,240
prospect, which he's sort of.
I mean, if we're going to be

398
00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:52,440
honest about it, he still is
in like the prospect phase of his development

399
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,359
because he's only twenty two. But
I just I'm not ready to give him

400
00:27:56,559 --> 00:28:02,640
the Kawai is a really interesting comparison
actual because I think there's a future where

401
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:07,720
he is almost like that kind of
a two way like I'm gonna decide the

402
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,839
result of this playoff series player.
I'm just saying I don't think he's there

403
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:17,640
yet, and I'm it feels to
me like that's the the It feels to

404
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,720
me like a lot of people think
he is there, and I just think

405
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,400
he's gonna get there, but he
isn't there. What would you call him?

406
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,160
Small distinction? Right now? If
I had to put your is it

407
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:29,039
you know, top if he if
you don't think he's top ten or top

408
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,200
twelve already, where do you think
he falls? Man, I'm so bad

409
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,640
at the rankings. I would say
that I would frame it this way.

410
00:28:37,079 --> 00:28:40,480
Well, this is going to be
such a cop out because this is just

411
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:44,839
a factual statement about what he is. I think he can be the best

412
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,480
player on a team that wins like
up you know, high fifties or up

413
00:28:48,519 --> 00:28:52,440
to sixty games in a full season, like I think that's where he is.

414
00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:57,160
Sixties maybe a little a little high. But so if that, if

415
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:03,839
that makes him top ten. It's
such a hard question because here's maybe go

416
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,119
ahead, Maybe it's a better way
to frame it would be so right now

417
00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:07,079
and you're not saying you won't be
this in the future, but right now

418
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:12,000
you're saying that he is not going
to be the best player on a championship

419
00:29:12,039 --> 00:29:17,079
team, like the Celtics aren't going
to win the title this year. Correct

420
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:18,759
that that's what I would say.
That might be a better pot take,

421
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:23,559
right, that's I mean, yeah, one of the other fifteen teams that

422
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,960
makes the playoffs gonna win. Hey, Dan, I'm taking the field over

423
00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:33,359
Jason Tatum. Mark it down.
That is bold. Yeah, right,

424
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,279
No, Yeah, I don't know. He's really good. I just I'm

425
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,160
thinking more and more about it.
I'm not sure that he's quite as good

426
00:29:40,279 --> 00:29:45,119
yet as a perception is. Let's
see, that was kind of that was

427
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,680
my that was my Jason Tatum piece. I have a Russell Westbrook thought,

428
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,839
would you like to hear that one. Let's stay in the Eastern Conference first

429
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,400
with Okay, I have one.
I'm out on the Sixers still, even

430
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,480
though they're moving. And I told
you I was going to force this into

431
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,119
the discussion because I wanted to talk
about Ben Simmons moving to the full or

432
00:30:00,599 --> 00:30:03,640
I'm just still kind of out on
them. I know the numbers are good

433
00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:10,880
when embiid and Simmons play without Horford, and as we mentioned before we recorded

434
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,160
this shake, Milton was playing well
leading into the break. I just don't

435
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:22,559
I don't trust that this team in
the aggregate has enough ball secondary ball handling,

436
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,680
or ball handling at all, and
functional shooting, not just someone who's

437
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,440
gonna hit a three, but can
score a three off the dribble, can

438
00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:32,319
face up and get you a bucket
that way, or just even score you

439
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,160
know, quick fire coming around to
screen. I just I really I doubt

440
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,599
it. And again, the offense
rates in the ninety third percentile went embiad

441
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:44,279
and Simmons play without Horford this year, so I am sort of going against

442
00:30:44,319 --> 00:30:48,039
convention, but I'm still just sort
of out on them, and I'm I

443
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,400
think this offseason, maybe this isn't
so hot. But I think what needs

444
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,440
to be spicy about it is I
believe that they need to do something major.

445
00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,240
I wouldn't fire Brett Brown and I
wouldn't trade Simmons or Embiid are the

446
00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:03,440
only things that I really wouldn't do. And I don't know what you can

447
00:31:03,519 --> 00:31:06,640
do with Al Horford. He's over
to eighty one million dollars over the next

448
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,559
three seasons, sixty nine million guaranteed. And then Tobias Harris is on the

449
00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:12,599
books for four years in one hundred
and forty seven point three million, which

450
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:18,960
arguably could be harder to move just
based on the salary cap probably shrinking this

451
00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:23,119
year. If I'm them, I'm
trying to get Chris Paul from ok See

452
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:26,440
with Horford as the anchor. What
do you need to attach to it?

453
00:31:26,559 --> 00:31:29,359
Is it Richardson? Is it a
pick? Would I probably wouldn't give up

454
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,359
fiveable in that situation, but I'd
be willing to listen about it. Can

455
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,359
you even get into the conversation for
an Oladipo or Bradley Beal? And So

456
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,799
I did think that maybe this wasn't
a hard enough truth. So I'm going

457
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:45,480
to loop it into this and I
believe that one of the Sixers or the

458
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,279
Pacers is going to be I don't
want to say quasi dismantled, but they're

459
00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:55,119
going to end up trading at least
one of their four best players, if

460
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:56,519
not two, over the summer.
And for the Pacers, this is just

461
00:31:56,599 --> 00:32:00,559
a nod towards the Victor Oladipos stuff. I don't know if there's a disconnect

462
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:05,680
between he and the organization, but
if they're at all worried about him leaving

463
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,119
in twenty twenty one free agency,
even if the relationship is good, you

464
00:32:08,279 --> 00:32:12,039
have to look at trading him and
maybe you don't even want to pay him

465
00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:15,119
because of this rupture, right quad. That might keep him out of Disney,

466
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,279
but also might not keep him out
of Disney because he's feeling he's feeling

467
00:32:17,359 --> 00:32:21,319
great, and I don't know that
you want him to be the player that

468
00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:23,839
you pay nearmax money too. And
for the Pacers, you are also aren't

469
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:29,640
going to pay nearmax money to four
different players you have brogged in Turner,

470
00:32:30,039 --> 00:32:34,039
Sabonis, and then Oladipo. They're
making nearly eighty million dollars combine next season.

471
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,279
Once Oladipo's on his new contract,
you know, he's around twenty twenty

472
00:32:37,319 --> 00:32:40,200
one million right now, so that
probably goes up by you know, a

473
00:32:40,279 --> 00:32:44,559
few million, so you're looking between
like eighty four to eighty six million.

474
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,519
I don't see them making that type
of commitment to four players. And then

475
00:32:46,559 --> 00:32:51,680
of course there's the Sabonis Turner partnership. It feels like that just needs to

476
00:32:51,759 --> 00:32:54,000
be busted up, that one of
them needs to go. I still am

477
00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:59,200
bullish on Miles Turner's future over Sabonis, even though he's been appreciably the better

478
00:32:59,279 --> 00:33:02,680
player season. It also seems like
Turner would be the player who's more scalable

479
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,799
to teams, and so he's going
to give you more on the trade market.

480
00:33:06,839 --> 00:33:09,119
It might just be easier to move. So that I wanted to make

481
00:33:09,119 --> 00:33:12,559
sure I loop this into a real
hard truth and didn't want to make it

482
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,359
seemed like a cop out, because
I'm sure plenty of people are out on

483
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,920
the Sixers, but that's sort of
I just still don't feel great about Philly.

484
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,240
I'm fascinated by them, but they
made me wildly uncomfortable. And I

485
00:33:22,359 --> 00:33:27,319
think one of these two teams and
it's almost I think it's more context dependent

486
00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:30,480
for the Sixers looking at the postseason, it's for the Pacers because they just

487
00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:35,200
might not have Aladipo or he just
might not even look that great because of

488
00:33:35,519 --> 00:33:37,440
how little he's played this year.
But I still believe that one of them

489
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:44,839
is going to end up making major
changes this summer. So it's like it's

490
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,440
like you're inside my brain a little
bit, because the last couple of things

491
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:52,279
I've worked on included sort of a
bold prediction. That one was that the

492
00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:58,200
Sixers will not improve their playoff seed, which is sixth, during this run

493
00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:01,319
up to the playoffs, which is
just sort of a nuts take because their

494
00:34:01,319 --> 00:34:06,680
schedule is super easy and you know
they should move up, but I don't

495
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,280
think they will. And a lot
of it has to do with the things

496
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:13,280
that you mentioned, which are that
that I would sort of synthesize and just

497
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,760
say, there's just there's too many
they're less than the some of their parts,

498
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,159
the whole's less than some of the
parts. There's too many weird things

499
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:23,880
about the fit of all these players. There's just like not new information.

500
00:34:24,039 --> 00:34:29,000
And then the home road split probably
doesn't mean anything, but it's so crazy

501
00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:30,639
that the twenty nine and two at
home and the ten and twenty four.

502
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:37,559
Like that just that makes me,
with no factual basis to it at all,

503
00:34:37,599 --> 00:34:39,800
think like something's wrong here. There's
just this isn't working. That's the

504
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:45,920
basis of this podcast. We don't
want any factuality here. It just it

505
00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:47,880
comes down. So yeah, I
agree with that the pay. And then

506
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,360
the other thing is is I was
working on trades to get you know,

507
00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:58,159
non playoff teams into the playoffs,
and I kept going back to the Pacers

508
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:00,800
to because think on the thinking that
like, well, the Pacers got to

509
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,960
break up, break this up.
They're not going to pay over eighteen point

510
00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:08,960
five million apiece to four different guys
next year, and then with the possibility

511
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,719
of Oladipo making significantly more than that
if they extend them, like I just

512
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:15,519
which would be the next year.
But you get the idea. The Pacers

513
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:21,159
are so tax averse historically and just
have made you know, had a ton

514
00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:24,079
of success while being kind of penny
pinchers. Like that's just that's untenable for

515
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:30,000
for that organization to have four high
dollar guys. So I do think that

516
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:36,920
of the two, the Sixers seem
to me like the more likely to have

517
00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:42,119
the you know, the blow up
or the significant, big name move just

518
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:46,119
because they're viewed as you know,
all right, you know, we went

519
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:51,480
through the their circumstances are different.
We went through the process, we came

520
00:35:51,519 --> 00:35:55,079
out the other side with Embiad and
Simmons, and they're the window is now.

521
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,320
It's open now because Embiad's health is
always going to be a question.

522
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:05,320
That whole thing. If they don't
deliver, which I kind of don't think

523
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,840
they will, it means so much
more than if the Pacers don't, for

524
00:36:08,079 --> 00:36:12,960
several reasons, just but the biggest
one being that nobody expects the Pacers to

525
00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:16,239
really do anything. So I do
think that the Sixers are kind of primed

526
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:22,400
for some kind of big shake up
Chris Paul. Look, I honestly,

527
00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:25,960
if if that was possible, if
that was in the cards a Chris Paul

528
00:36:27,039 --> 00:36:30,000
trade, I think that you I
would give up type wool, I would

529
00:36:30,079 --> 00:36:35,440
give up basically every future asset I
had, because this is really your shot.

530
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,719
I don't think you know that you
can sort of have it both ways.

531
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:44,719
If you're gonna if you're gonna overpay
for Chris Paul, who I don't

532
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,199
even know what sort of the asking
price is for him at this point.

533
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:52,079
Because he played great this year,
but he's gonna be a year older,

534
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,000
but also another year comes off his
deal, so he's more palatable. I

535
00:36:55,039 --> 00:37:00,760
don't know, but he's someone that
fits exactly what they need. He'd be

536
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,639
the adult in the room. He'd
get Simmons off the ball more. I

537
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,280
just I think I would kind of
go really all in for him. It

538
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:14,480
would just be a question of the
thunder want anything that the Sixers could put

539
00:37:14,559 --> 00:37:19,199
together for that, I don't.
I would just be curious because Horford's deal

540
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,880
is it spans longer than Chris Paul's, even though it's cheaper during that time,

541
00:37:24,559 --> 00:37:27,719
particularly when you look at the guaranteed
money, I think you would save

542
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,800
like almost seventeen million, and look, he'd be reunited with Billy Donovan.

543
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,079
I don't really know if that matters
at all, but Steven Adams is already

544
00:37:34,079 --> 00:37:35,960
there. I don't know what you
would have to attach. You also have

545
00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:38,199
to attach more salary to make the
money work. And at that point,

546
00:37:38,559 --> 00:37:43,039
Josh Richardson, it was Josh Richardson
and Horford does that do it? And

547
00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:46,519
if you're the Sixers, do you
do you do that trade? I don't

548
00:37:46,599 --> 00:37:51,800
know. I mean, I don't
know, I just think, well,

549
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,880
maybe this will transition us to It
depends on if you think the window is

550
00:37:53,960 --> 00:38:00,360
right now and or if the window
is shut and we're gonna you want to

551
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:04,079
talk about the Jazz a little bit, But do you have another East guy

552
00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:07,239
East team to get to? Because
I have a I have a title window

553
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:08,760
one myself that I like to hit. I'm ready to hear. Let's talk

554
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:13,760
about Chris Paul's former teams, Russell
Westbrook's now team now current team. Oh

555
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,280
yeah, kind I forgot I already
moved on from Russell Westbrook. No,

556
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,519
this is a this is a quick
one. I just think and this is

557
00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:24,880
a hard truth. Uh. We've
continued to like sort of draw a dividing

558
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:30,000
line between casual and non casual fans. And if you said to the casual

559
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:35,239
fan that Russell Westbrook is really really
gonna matter a ton in the Rockets playoff

560
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,639
run, they'd be like, cool, he's great. But I think for

561
00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:42,719
people that have kind of been on
the side that he's a floor raising kind

562
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,719
of overrated, inefficient player for several
years, that's a scary thought. But

563
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:54,079
here's here's the idea. And I'll
con see that he's been way better since

564
00:38:54,159 --> 00:39:00,280
the Rockets abandoned centers kind of convinced
him to stop threes. Convinced him,

565
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,760
or maybe he decided, whatever,
get to the basket all the time,

566
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,440
finish at the rim, don't shoot
jump shots, just run around, cut,

567
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:13,239
do all this stuff in a spaced
out floor. I think that,

568
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:19,559
like, look the layoff, you
can say it's gonna revive Harden. He's

569
00:39:19,639 --> 00:39:23,400
not going to have his typical kind
of playoff wear down disappointment. I'll believe

570
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:28,440
that when I see it. I'll
believe that the foul drawing stuff, you

571
00:39:28,519 --> 00:39:31,000
know, will continue to work in
the playoffs when I see it. It

572
00:39:31,119 --> 00:39:36,320
just hasn't. I think Harden is, you know, still a great player.

573
00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:42,039
But I do think that Westbrook's role
in Houston's successful or failure might be

574
00:39:42,159 --> 00:39:46,559
as big as Harden's because Harden will
get the attention, and I think Westbrook

575
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:51,360
is going to have to play at
least as well as he did sort of

576
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,320
when he flipped the switch or got
things figured out, you know, midway

577
00:39:54,360 --> 00:40:00,280
through this year, and I just
question whether he's capable of at I haven't

578
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:05,559
been the biggest Westbrook fan just in
general, but I think it is a

579
00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:12,239
hard truth that like rockets, a
lot depends on Russell Westbrook going forward,

580
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,239
and that's kind of a dicey proposition
to me. I don't know if doubt

581
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:20,320
is a is a hard truth for
when it comes to Russell Westbrook just yet.

582
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,199
I don't. I'm not sure who
was actually a fan of that trade.

583
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,679
And it probably looks a little bit
better now because he's actually been,

584
00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:30,960
you know, better than James Harden, playing better than James Hardon excuse me

585
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:36,679
for for a little while before the
league shut down. In theory, though,

586
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,960
this is the first time that he's
ever been able to like play with

587
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,159
you know, four shooters around him. The fact that it took this long

588
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,559
into his career for that to happen
is actually sort of wild, and I

589
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:52,000
think that lends itself to Hey,
maybe the way he's playing right now is

590
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,039
it can work, but like,
at what cost? Is it taking the

591
00:40:57,119 --> 00:41:00,679
ball out of Harden's hands a little
bit too much? Which seems stupid because

592
00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:04,679
Harden is so high usage. And
then you do have to think about the

593
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,800
long term viability of this. He's
on the books for three years at at

594
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:13,360
Supermac's money after this one, So
I'm definitely with you with the skepticism.

595
00:41:14,039 --> 00:41:15,960
I just don't I honestly don't know. And I'm curious to see how it

596
00:41:16,039 --> 00:41:19,920
works out in the playoffs, because
you know, I'm a fan of small

597
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,039
ball, and so I tend to
think that they'll be able to mismatch a

598
00:41:22,119 --> 00:41:24,480
few teams into oblivion. And it's
like you mentioned, I mean, so

599
00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:30,920
many more of his field goal attempts
are coming inside five feet and I think

600
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,639
that ultimately works. But you're punting
on the rebounding battle, and then you

601
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,000
are going to go through stretches where
Russ takes his usual shots. He's even

602
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:44,519
been shooting above thirty five percent from
three I believe since Clint Capella left the

603
00:41:44,599 --> 00:41:46,519
rotation, not even before he was
traded, but since he left the rotation,

604
00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:50,400
when that sort of reverts to normal, that could hurt you. Even

605
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,440
though his volume is down, and
so there's there seems like there's a lot

606
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:58,239
of variants in the Rockets outcomes,
and it's definitely fair to wonder whether this

607
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:04,599
is a just a championship level team. It's not. It's just full stop

608
00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:07,800
for me. I don't know.
I just for all the reasons you know,

609
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,400
I love small ball too, I
just think they just don't have enough

610
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,920
players number one and number two.
I think Charles Barkley now with my numbering

611
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:22,000
my points, I just I'm not
ready. This is again we're keep going

612
00:42:22,079 --> 00:42:25,320
back to gut stuff because it's been
so long since we've seen basketball. I

613
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,719
feel like I'm just reverting to that. Like, I just don't think Harden

614
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:36,599
is capable of leading a championship team, at least this championship team to a

615
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,440
championship. I don't think Westbrook is
either, and I think together same deal

616
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:45,719
championship wise. Though you have a
jazz take, Are you ready to give

617
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,440
me your jazz take? Yeah?
I think, And I know there are

618
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,119
a lot of jazz fans that listen
to this podcast, And so I'm saying

619
00:42:52,199 --> 00:42:59,519
this out of just genuine concern about
the team's future. I think that while

620
00:42:59,599 --> 00:43:02,360
while they needed to go all in
last Sea last offseason, I think that

621
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,000
like the opportunity to win a title
with this core is gone. And I

622
00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:09,800
don't like, if you want to
say that, well, they're still next

623
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:15,480
year, Mike Conley's under contract.
That's mostly fine to me, But there's

624
00:43:15,559 --> 00:43:21,719
just something about them just feels untenable
to me. And so you have like

625
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,440
losing Boyad Bogdanovitch for the rest of
this year, Like it really ends up

626
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:28,199
hurting. Conley and Angels are going
to be in their age thirty three seasons

627
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,199
next year, Bodonovitch will be in
his age thirty one campaign. Gobert's supermat

628
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,599
Max eligible after this season, and
when his next deal kicks in, it'll

629
00:43:36,639 --> 00:43:38,880
be for his age twenty nine season. Donovan Mitchell is going to be on

630
00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:43,559
a max money Uh, they'll probably
sign him to an extension this offseason.

631
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,079
I'm regardless. The following year is
going to be on a max money deal

632
00:43:46,159 --> 00:43:52,320
twenty twenty two. I don't want
I would wonder if that payroll is tenable.

633
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,519
If you have Gobert Mitchell and then
Bogdanovitch is going to be wrapping up

634
00:43:54,559 --> 00:43:59,000
his big money deal. What are
you going to do after Mike Conley comes

635
00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:01,280
off the books? Like, what's
the answer in the backcourt with Mitchell?

636
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,559
Do you think that he's going to
be a primary point guard at that point?

637
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,079
There's a lot of versatility to this
team, but I just don't I

638
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:15,800
don't see them genuinely contending for a
title anymore. I think Mike Conley would

639
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,400
have to be Memphis Mike Conley for
that to happen, and so there is

640
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,280
room for me to be There's always
room for me to be wrong, because

641
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:22,840
I'm always wrong. And so if
Mike Conley comes back and they're just torching

642
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,480
opponents in the playoffs, but if
Mike Conley is just on a decline,

643
00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:31,199
which again is incredibly possible, that
ends up being a huge problem for this

644
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,920
team. And the only way that
I could think of wedging open the title

645
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,639
window, or even opening it at
all, would be, can you work

646
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:42,039
out a Conley for Chris Paul type
deal? Are you willing to even pay

647
00:44:42,119 --> 00:44:45,880
that? Because Paul has I think
eighty five point six is the exact number

648
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,280
million and two years left on his
contract, So in the final year of

649
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,400
his deal, you'll be talking about
a new deal Rudy Gobert and a new

650
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:58,440
deal Donovan Mitchell that might be financially
untenable for Utah. What I would also

651
00:44:58,559 --> 00:45:01,840
do this offseason is that if you
can't get go Bear on what you think

652
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:07,920
is a reasonable extension, or he's
really looking for big money, I would

653
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,679
look at trading him. And I
know that sounds so stupid, because he's

654
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,519
a generational defender, and I'm not
doubting that he might. I don't think

655
00:45:15,599 --> 00:45:19,960
he should win Defensive Player of the
Year this year. I believe he was

656
00:45:20,079 --> 00:45:22,159
my pick the past two seasons,
and if he won it this year,

657
00:45:22,199 --> 00:45:25,559
I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't
really have any criticism there. I know

658
00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:30,199
it seems like there were some dynamic
issues on the court where he seemed more

659
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,000
frustrated than it didn't look like.
For there was this part of the season

660
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:35,079
where the games that I twoed into, it didn't feel like he was just

661
00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:39,840
getting back as quickly as he normally
does. I get that moving him sounds

662
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,840
dumb because what are you going to
get for him, just because the way

663
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,320
that the center position has gone over
the past few years. At the same

664
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:52,519
time, that deal in that he
will sign in twenty twenty one free agency,

665
00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:53,519
whether it comes from you or another
team, because there will be a

666
00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:58,000
team that that pays him, just
because there's going to be more teams with

667
00:45:58,079 --> 00:46:00,559
cap space at that point. And
look, he's a generational defender, but

668
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:04,119
you have to at least gauge the
market for him. And I also know

669
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:07,159
that he's your best player. But
I also believe that Donovan Mitchell is easier

670
00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:12,159
to build around just because of the
type of game that he plays, which

671
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,800
is he's a primary scoring guard.
He can face up, attack the ball

672
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,840
off the dribble. It's not just
that he makes the glitzy plays, It's

673
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,079
that he's going to be a He's
more likely to be an offensive engine,

674
00:46:21,079 --> 00:46:25,519
and I think those are better to
build championship teams around than these, you

675
00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:30,039
know, a defensive stalwart like Rudy
Gobert. And so I'm not even saying

676
00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:32,880
that Rudy Gobert can be mismatched off
the floor, because even when he struggled

677
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:36,639
against the Rockets last year, the
Jazz were able to find ways around that.

678
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:37,880
And he can step out and is
quicker there, and I think people

679
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,920
give him credit for he's a really
good player. But if I'm the Jazz,

680
00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:45,239
I'm looking at what happened this season. I'm just looking at the age

681
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:47,360
of some of these guys. I'm
looking at the contract situations, and unless

682
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,400
I'm going to double down and again
go after that Chris Paul trade, I'm

683
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:54,000
gonna look at moving Rudy Gobert.
I don't know that I ultimately do it,

684
00:46:54,199 --> 00:46:57,960
but saying that these are the two
that you want to build around and

685
00:46:58,599 --> 00:47:01,480
build a championship team around. I
don't think you can default to that right

686
00:47:01,519 --> 00:47:05,360
now. And this says nothing of
the friction between them. I'm not Look,

687
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,480
everything could be hunky dory between Donovan
Mitchell and Rudy Gobert, and I'm

688
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:10,719
still going to feel the same way. I'm I'm least concerned about whatever friction

689
00:47:12,159 --> 00:47:15,079
exists. The Jazz say they aren't
worried about it. You and I know

690
00:47:15,159 --> 00:47:16,960
that you don't need to be best
friends to win in the NBA. And

691
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:21,119
there's just this, you know,
fans are and I'm not even saying this

692
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,280
critically, they're they're disillusioned if they
think that all these guys are hanging out

693
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,360
and on good terms. It's like, you know, I get this way

694
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,199
if there's a band like that you're
a fan of, if you want them

695
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:31,599
to be just best friends off the
stage, but you don't realize that it's

696
00:47:31,599 --> 00:47:36,800
actually also a business. And I'm
speaking as a blinkin eighty two Diehard here,

697
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,960
So I know all that works.
That's so I'm really not worried about

698
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,679
that. It's everything else that I
just mentioned, And so I think the

699
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,840
Jazz I don't know who I would
pick them to beat looking at their potential

700
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,519
playoff matchups, I'm not sure that
I would pick them to win a series

701
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,039
right now, and that might change. If you know, Mike Conley comes

702
00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:58,320
back for the remainder of the regular
season and he's just dominating, has this

703
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,800
chemistry with Colbert out the pick and
roll because he's used how the Jazz are

704
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:05,039
playing and he's just not dealing with
hamstring issues. But this is a team

705
00:48:05,119 --> 00:48:07,880
that I don't think that you need
to say they should dismantle it and go

706
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:12,880
into a rebuild, but they should
probably to me, look at look at

707
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,079
my Conley trade scenarios if they're out
there, But Rudy Gobert should not,

708
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:20,760
to me be untouchable moving forward for
this squad. So as you were first

709
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:28,519
talking, I thought I thought that
you were gonna sort of frame the discussion

710
00:48:28,599 --> 00:48:31,960
around well Gobert is a is gonna
get the Jazz? Are gonna pay Gobert

711
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:36,719
or the Max. It's like a
foregone conclusion, which you didn't say,

712
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,599
which I'm glad because that's like that
hangs over this as much as anything else.

713
00:48:40,639 --> 00:48:44,960
If if what we're talking about is
whether or not the Jazz's window is

714
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,360
shut. I agree they're not a
threat to win a title this year.

715
00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:52,760
I think winning a series would be
probably the high end of their spectrum of

716
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:59,760
outcomes. But no, I think
Gobert is not remotely a no brainer supermax

717
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,239
guy. In fact, I think
it would be a terrible decision to do

718
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,360
that. And so yeah, that's
that, because then that gets us into

719
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,519
the same situation we always get into
with huge names that can't agree to terms

720
00:49:09,599 --> 00:49:14,760
on a on a giant extension and
then their trade candidates. That's just sort

721
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:20,239
of how the process operates. And
so that as much as anything makes Gobert,

722
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,719
it makes the Jazz their window if
it was open ever, you know,

723
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:29,320
really narrow maybe shut. Now.
The thing The other thing though,

724
00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,800
is is I do put a lot
of stock in the Gobert Mitchell relationship.

725
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:39,599
On it on its own, you
know, it wouldn't be circul you know,

726
00:49:39,679 --> 00:49:43,960
all in a vacuum, all things
being equal, whatever sort of you

727
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:46,559
know, caveat you want to put
on it, I wouldn't be as concerned

728
00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:51,440
about it. But when you combine
the fact that the financial circumstances are going

729
00:49:51,519 --> 00:49:55,480
to sort of make it, you
know, prudent or to to move Gobert

730
00:49:55,679 --> 00:50:00,079
or sort of make it excusable to
the fan base to move Gobert. That

731
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:06,079
gives you sort of another reason not
to try to mend fences that maybe can't

732
00:50:06,119 --> 00:50:08,320
be mended. And I think this
is another sort of you know, talk

733
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:15,760
radio whatever take, But like,
how often do you hear rumblings about two

734
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,079
stars on a team, you know, not liking each other. And I

735
00:50:19,119 --> 00:50:21,679
think that's fair to say they were, you know, certainly Mitchell was really

736
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,599
upset at least for a while.
And even did you you read the piece

737
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:29,039
right, Yeah, it was just
even some of the quotes that Colbert gave.

738
00:50:29,079 --> 00:50:30,559
I know he was also sort of
taking responsibility, but he was like

739
00:50:31,039 --> 00:50:37,599
some people just can't take that type
of criticism and that that was that was

740
00:50:37,639 --> 00:50:42,119
a shot. It's heem very passive
aggressive no. So so just how often

741
00:50:42,199 --> 00:50:46,400
do we see that level of pretty
obvious, you know, failure to get

742
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:52,719
along correct itself and and like what's
what are it just doesn't you know,

743
00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:55,199
again, no facts, no law, It's just it just doesn't feel like

744
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,599
a situation that we come out the
other side of this and they win a

745
00:50:59,639 --> 00:51:02,079
title. I just think that's another
thing you add to it. Plus the

746
00:51:02,199 --> 00:51:06,719
idea that Gobert, great as he
is, is not a not you know,

747
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,400
a top, top top guy you
want as your best player on a

748
00:51:09,639 --> 00:51:13,800
championship team just because of his position, his size. It's just that's not

749
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:19,920
where the league is. I do
think there's another thing that's kind of just

750
00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:23,239
by way of comparison, right to
sort of frame this, Like, you

751
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:27,280
know, the Nuggets I think are
a team that if they were to get

752
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,039
bounced in the first round this year, which I also think is possible,

753
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,800
they were winning championship pick at the
beginning of the year. I just want

754
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:42,000
a record to state that I feel
very unconfident in that it's not looking great.

755
00:51:43,159 --> 00:51:45,159
But no, so yeah, no, I And at the time,

756
00:51:45,599 --> 00:51:51,039
sure, right, like the they
were young, Yokich had an absolutely great

757
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:53,360
shot to win MVP. He ple
ended up playing great. But but here's

758
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:59,360
the difference. So if the Jazz
get bounced, you've got the Mitchell Gobert

759
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,559
relationship, You've got Gobert's contract,
You've got all these things that say,

760
00:52:02,159 --> 00:52:07,920
all right, this isn't this isn't
it, let's change it. If the

761
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,960
Nuggets get bounced, I still think
you can chalk it up to well,

762
00:52:12,119 --> 00:52:15,960
Jamal Murray is just not ready.
Yokich is still young. We like what

763
00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:17,519
we have. Let's run it back, Let's try to, you know,

764
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,360
upgrade Gary Harris, Let's do this, Let's do that. You're not gonna

765
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,679
make fundamental changes. You got to
decide on Jeremy Grant, Paul millsap one

766
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:30,320
the other both. I don't know, but I don't think the fallout would

767
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,400
be the same. Whereas all this
other stuff going into the Jazz situation,

768
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:38,360
I do think distinguishes it and makes
it sort of more I don't know,

769
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:44,760
volatile is not the right word,
but sort of more prone to generating a

770
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:50,400
pretty dramatic reaction to a playoff disappointment, if that makes any sense. It

771
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,760
feels weird to say that, though, because they just went the all in

772
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:57,840
route. It was traded for Conley
and sign Boya Vogdanovich in the same offseason.

773
00:52:59,079 --> 00:53:01,079
Yeah, you know, it doesn't
alway work. The Conley thing was

774
00:53:01,119 --> 00:53:05,320
a failure, and injury had a
lot to do with that. But but

775
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,920
you mentioned some of the ages too, like there are a lot of key

776
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,840
guys. Gobert's twenty eight, I
mean, that's not old, but but

777
00:53:10,199 --> 00:53:14,639
if you're picking between him and Mitchell. I mean, look, a four

778
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,840
year deal is going to take him
through his age thirty three season or something

779
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:21,840
like that. That's that's dangerous.
And I'm not I don't think he's They

780
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,079
shouldn't give him the supermats, and
if they do, it's going to be

781
00:53:24,159 --> 00:53:29,800
an issue. But I don't even
like and this isn't even a I'm not

782
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:31,599
trying to take a shot at his
actual value, but just the way teams

783
00:53:31,599 --> 00:53:37,159
are built now and how he's used
relative to what the ideal center is,

784
00:53:37,639 --> 00:53:42,400
Like, what can you afford to
pay him without actually hamstringing yourself? How

785
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,719
much do you want to invest in
your in your starting center, even if

786
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:47,639
he is going to contend for Defensive
Player of the Year awards for the next

787
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,599
I guess it could be fair to
say if he stays healthy the next half

788
00:53:51,639 --> 00:53:54,480
decade, Yeah, no, it's
yeah, it's you could. Two things

789
00:53:54,559 --> 00:53:59,519
can be true. Gobert can be
a great player, and that can be

790
00:53:59,599 --> 00:54:02,559
true. Can also be true that
the Jazz shouldn't build their team around him,

791
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:07,880
you know that just that's just not
his fault. That's just circumstances being

792
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:12,880
what they are, financially, interpersonally, positionally, It's just you know that

793
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,639
I think I totally agree with you
about the Jazz's window being shut, and

794
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:22,639
I think maybe in hindsight it was
never actually opened in the first place.

795
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,119
The thing that I really only just
occurred to me too, though, is

796
00:54:25,199 --> 00:54:29,280
that moving him becomes tricky, not
only because what is going to be the

797
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,239
demand, but the Jazz aren't going
to be looking to start over. It'd

798
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,719
be different if they were. And
so that you can you know, Charlotte

799
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:39,360
came with all the picks and Miles
Bridges and uh, you know PJ.

800
00:54:39,519 --> 00:54:44,000
Washington and again just this year's pick
future picks because you know they're gonna suck

801
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,239
anyway. I'm not I might have
just named one of the least attractive building

802
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:52,559
team packages out there. Even the
Knicks could be thrown in there. But

803
00:54:52,639 --> 00:54:55,400
you're gonna want these win now pieces, And so what team is going to

804
00:54:55,559 --> 00:55:00,119
help facilitate that type of deal?
You know? Brooklyn kind of stands out

805
00:55:00,159 --> 00:55:06,639
to me where they have LeVert and
Spencer, Dinwoody and Jared Allen, but

806
00:55:06,679 --> 00:55:08,880
they also have DeAndre Jordan. So
do they want Rudy Gobert because apparently Katie

807
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:14,840
and Kyrie think that he that DeAndre
Jordan is still a star, and DeAndre

808
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,360
Jordan seems like a good dude.
He also has apparently has really good friends.

809
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:21,599
So I'm just I'm like struggling.
I know, people name the Celtics,

810
00:55:21,639 --> 00:55:24,480
but they don't really want rim running
bigs and they're definitely not gonna even

811
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,800
if they traded for him, you
can't. That's not gonna be a situation

812
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,159
that I think they're gonna want to
pay him. And then two, they

813
00:55:30,159 --> 00:55:32,519
don't have the salary matching fodder to
do it unless you're including Gordon Hayward in

814
00:55:32,559 --> 00:55:37,039
there, And that's just that's hysterical
because that's not happening. And so you

815
00:55:37,199 --> 00:55:42,360
go through these teams. I just
don't know who Gobert is great. I

816
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,800
just don't know what team is like
going to go all in on a trade

817
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:51,079
for him. I was messing around
with trade ideas the other day and one

818
00:55:51,119 --> 00:55:53,440
of the interesting teams that came up
was the Bulls, And you'd have to

819
00:55:53,519 --> 00:55:58,960
sort of accept the idea that they
would max him out, but like you

820
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:04,639
could do something with if Chicago said, take Kobe White, take Wendell Carter

821
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,880
Jr. We'll give you a first
rounder with you know, light if any

822
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:12,000
protections. Daddy is young to make
the money work. Give us Rudy Gobert,

823
00:56:12,559 --> 00:56:15,400
and then you see Chicago with Gobert
and they bring back Chris Dunn.

824
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:20,519
So you got your defensive sort of
bookends. And then you can just get

825
00:56:20,559 --> 00:56:23,920
away with Zach Lavine and Laurie Marking
and Otto Porter sort of in between that,

826
00:56:24,559 --> 00:56:28,400
and that's kind of interesting and if
you're the Bulls, it'd certainly be

827
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,320
splashy. I'm not sure that the
Jazz would be interested in, you know,

828
00:56:31,639 --> 00:56:36,599
a sort of a project center,
but I do like Carter and scoring

829
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,760
Guard who I don't know how you
fit that with Mitchell, but like there's

830
00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:43,320
sort of a squint really hard and
see something there. But you know,

831
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:46,360
would Gobert I wanna maybe that's the
only you know, honestly, it would

832
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:50,480
depend a lot on who's willing to
pay him what he thinks he's worth,

833
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:54,039
and that might really narrow the teams
down to maybe he's not going to land

834
00:56:54,159 --> 00:56:57,559
on a winner and stick with one
if if it comes down to money.

835
00:56:57,599 --> 00:56:59,679
I don't know. I don't know
if those are his intentions, but yeah,

836
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:01,360
totally agree that it's tough to sort
of figure out what to do with

837
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,639
him. If if it comes to
the point that you got to do something

838
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:09,159
with him, do you have any
hard truths left? I got another kind

839
00:57:09,159 --> 00:57:13,280
of a bummer one. It's real
quick. I just think it fits into

840
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:15,639
it fits into sort of what we've
been talking about. I think the Warriors

841
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:20,519
run as like a serious title threat
is it's it's over. I don't know

842
00:57:20,559 --> 00:57:22,960
if that's hot. I mean,
I think Steph Curry, we've said,

843
00:57:23,239 --> 00:57:29,480
use the term generational talent, I
mean Curry's. You could make a case

844
00:57:29,559 --> 00:57:31,880
still that he's the most the biggest
difference maker you can put on an NBA

845
00:57:32,039 --> 00:57:37,920
roster. I think Clay Thompson will
be good, I think, but that's

846
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:40,519
not enough. I think Andrew Wiggins
is still Andrew Wiggins. I think Draymond

847
00:57:40,559 --> 00:57:46,199
Green is very clearly going to age
poorly and has already probably started that,

848
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:51,119
although it's hard to really be sure, just because he was not trying this

849
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:57,280
year. Understandably, I think the
only you know, getting you honest somehow

850
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:02,079
or somehow hitting just a monster home
run with the trade exception would be really

851
00:58:02,159 --> 00:58:07,320
the only way forward. But I
so, if you let's frame it this

852
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:12,480
way, is Steph Curry gonna win
another championship in his career with the Warriors.

853
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:16,280
Oh, man, I don't.
That's such a tough question. I

854
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:22,360
know, I I don't think so, and I would and and and that's

855
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,719
while believing that Curry is going to
age about as well as like any player

856
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:29,039
in history has because as long as
he's going to be able to stretch the

857
00:58:29,119 --> 00:58:34,360
defense as an off ball threat,
he'll be useful. But it's just it,

858
00:58:34,559 --> 00:58:38,840
they're they're just so overleveraged with these
big contracts to guys that are really,

859
00:58:39,159 --> 00:58:45,559
you know, very into their primes
or you know, you're already past

860
00:58:45,679 --> 00:58:49,119
them. I just, uh,
it sucks. I mean, I you

861
00:58:49,159 --> 00:58:52,119
know, I grew up a Warriors
fan, like I got the best five

862
00:58:52,159 --> 00:58:55,400
years I could have ever asked for
from a fan perspective. But I just

863
00:58:55,559 --> 00:58:59,639
don't. I just don't think there's
a way back from this. Honestly,

864
00:59:00,039 --> 00:59:04,360
game on you for not being higher
on Andrew Wiggins. I do think he'll

865
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,159
be better there than he's been anyplace
else, But like, what kind of

866
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,719
what kind of bar are we talking
about? You know, would that not

867
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:14,119
be one of the worst, you
know, dozen guys per dollar in the

868
00:59:14,199 --> 00:59:15,840
league. I do. I'm with
you in the sense that if you if

869
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,440
the Warriors are going to be a
contender, I think you have to believe

870
00:59:19,519 --> 00:59:22,039
in what's already in place. You
can't. I mean, you should never

871
00:59:22,119 --> 00:59:27,079
assume that Jana isn't The GUPO is
coming, but like the logistics to get

872
00:59:27,159 --> 00:59:30,599
him would just be would be wild. And then they really just don't have

873
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,719
a means to improve their team unless
all of a sudden Andrew Wiggins or Draymond

874
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,519
Green becomes an asset on their current
deals, which I don't think either of

875
00:59:38,559 --> 00:59:43,320
them will be. I'm not out
on Draymond. Draymond Green's deal as much

876
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,000
as everybody else. I do think
it has the potential to age quite poorly

877
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:49,639
after what we've seen this year,
but you think if the stakes are higher

878
00:59:49,679 --> 00:59:52,519
and the games matter, he'll play
harder. There's the injuries obviously to Klay,

879
00:59:52,559 --> 00:59:55,760
Thompson and Steff do you have to
consider. I think they can still

880
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,280
be in the mix, but that
their window. We're talking one or two

881
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:02,280
years to in a title and that's
it, and where do you go from

882
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:07,039
There is the issue, because I
think Clay and Steph their games can technically

883
01:00:07,119 --> 01:00:09,840
age quite well. Maybe not so
much for Clay on defense, but how

884
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:13,239
are you going to surround them with
the proper talent when, as you said,

885
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,159
they are so over leverage. So
I think next season and probably the

886
01:00:17,239 --> 01:00:21,320
one after that, if we're looking
at this team, they'll still be in

887
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,639
the mix. And I think unless
Steph and Curry all of a sudden isn't

888
01:00:23,639 --> 01:00:27,880
good next year, or Clay Thompson
falls off, there'll still be a draw

889
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:30,599
if they're willing to spend the taxpayers
mid level exception or if you know,

890
01:00:30,599 --> 01:00:34,480
if they're willing to use that trade
exception, I think this would be the

891
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:37,280
summer to use it, because I
do believe all these teams are going to

892
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:43,239
be looking to cut money relative to
how much the cap shrinks and then the

893
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,119
revenue hit that they've taken this year, So maybe this might be the ideal

894
01:00:46,159 --> 01:00:50,360
summer if you're willing to spend to
use that trade exception. The flip side

895
01:00:50,400 --> 01:00:53,320
being, are the Warriors going to
be among the teams that are willing to

896
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:58,280
spend when you just paid, you
know, to have Chase Center and that

897
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,039
revenue not only is it not going
to be there for the rest of this

898
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:02,480
season, but it's probably not going
to be there for most, if not

899
01:01:02,639 --> 01:01:06,800
all, of next season, right, that's I mean talk about that's the

900
01:01:07,079 --> 01:01:14,360
absolute biggest unknown is like that thing
was supposed to and would have put the

901
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:19,599
Warriors in a position where they're spending
power. I think it was just going

902
01:01:19,679 --> 01:01:22,280
to be astronomical, and I mean
you can see that by the way they

903
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:27,000
built the roster. They just I
think decided several years ahead of time,

904
01:01:27,079 --> 01:01:31,719
like we're going to pay a bunch
attacks and now I just I don't know

905
01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:37,920
if that's a sustainable way to operate, because are we going to have fans

906
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,519
at games, like, I just
I don't know. What's how does that

907
01:01:40,679 --> 01:01:45,719
change things. That's a whole other
factor that I think probably cuts further against

908
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:51,119
them kind of getting back close to
what they were. I'm with you.

909
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:55,000
I have another actually let me go
with a positive hard yes, let's please

910
01:01:55,079 --> 01:02:00,079
do. And so I don't know
which one it is, one of the

911
01:02:00,239 --> 01:02:07,159
Thunder or the Pelicans need to enter
this summer as buyers, like they need

912
01:02:07,239 --> 01:02:10,280
to go on the Superstar trade market
and try and get involved. I don't

913
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:15,840
know if that's I think that's probably
pretty on the you know, on the

914
01:02:15,079 --> 01:02:20,239
spicy end of the spectrum, just
because the Thunder they were supposed to blow

915
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:22,719
this roster up, and there are
financial concerns being in a small market for

916
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,880
them. They're in the tax right
now for this year. If they resigned

917
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,639
Gallinari, they could. They won't
be in it next year, but they'll

918
01:02:29,639 --> 01:02:31,480
be right up against it. And
what are the repercussions then of trading for

919
01:02:31,559 --> 01:02:37,320
a star? But they have Dennis
Shrewder, Steven Adams two expiring deals,

920
01:02:37,719 --> 01:02:42,199
They have what could be fifteen first
round picks between now and two and twenty

921
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:45,880
six. Go in there and see
if you can enter the Bradley Beal discussions.

922
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:51,760
You're obviously not going to trade again
for Victor Oladipo and then the superstar.

923
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,239
The potential superstar market gets pretty bare
after that, And so maybe I'm

924
01:02:55,280 --> 01:03:01,119
sort of overstating their position, but
be on the lookout for that. I

925
01:03:01,199 --> 01:03:06,159
think they've played well enough to where
you know, is riding out Chris Paul's

926
01:03:06,159 --> 01:03:07,920
contract the worst thing in the world
for them. I don't know how much

927
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,559
they care about about money. I'm
sure. I'm sure it's a ton So

928
01:03:10,679 --> 01:03:15,079
perhaps it is for the Pelicans specifically. I don't want to read too much

929
01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:17,199
into the small sample size, but
here's the fact of the matter. Anyway,

930
01:03:17,199 --> 01:03:21,000
you don't want to over expedite a
rebuild because then it puts you in

931
01:03:21,119 --> 01:03:27,760
this same over leveraged and underperforming situation
that you were in with Anthony Davis,

932
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,119
and look at how that turned out. You don't want to botch the Zion

933
01:03:30,199 --> 01:03:36,880
Williamson's career in that vein. But
you're already paying Drew holiday Star money,

934
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,400
brandon Ingram's about to get a max
deal. Lonzo Ball is going to be

935
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:44,960
extension knowledgable this summer, ditto for
Josh Hart. And you have those picks

936
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:49,199
that you receive from the Lakers,
and look those distant Lakers first round picks,

937
01:03:49,239 --> 01:03:52,320
they have the option that I'm looking
at the twenty twenty four Lakers pick

938
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:58,000
with the option to defer until twenty
twenty five. That low key is one

939
01:03:58,079 --> 01:04:00,360
of the best trade assets in the
NBA. I know the Lakers have Anthony

940
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,800
Davis, but Lebron if he's still
playing, will he won b in LA

941
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:08,880
or two will age fifty six,
Lebron whatever means at that point still be

942
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:13,079
at this level, And so I'm
not I wouldn't dangle that it would have

943
01:04:13,239 --> 01:04:17,360
to be really for a fortune's turning
talent, but that can really anchor I

944
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,239
feel like a trade on its own, so Bradley Bible comes available, the

945
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:26,639
New Orleans Pelicans should should absolutely be
involved if for some reason Jannis demanded a

946
01:04:26,719 --> 01:04:29,920
trade. That's a team. I
don't know if his fit with Zion Williamson

947
01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:31,920
is perfect, so maybe that's a
terrible example, but they feel like they

948
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,639
have the asset equity to do it. Lonzo Ball is really good and he's

949
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:39,920
like fairly good salary matching fodder at
this point. Yes, you do have

950
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,400
to pay him, so that would
factor in to his next team. If

951
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:45,840
the Jannie thing did devolve, and
I don't think it will. That's another

952
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:47,960
hard truth. Jannie is going to
sign the Supermax. That's this might be

953
01:04:48,159 --> 01:04:53,039
terrible really, so oh, let's
get to that one then after this one,

954
01:04:53,079 --> 01:04:56,320
because that was another, like pleasant
whatever one it would had to do

955
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,800
with twenty twenty one free agency anyway, though, if Jannie doesn't sign the

956
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:01,039
s Max and the Bucks have to
blow it up, I don't think it

957
01:05:01,159 --> 01:05:06,039
goes that route this offseason at least, But the Pelicans would be a prime

958
01:05:06,119 --> 01:05:11,639
landing spot for Chris Middleton. I
would think he provides basically everything of what

959
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:16,679
they need. So I am I'm
looking if New Orleans was No, I'm

960
01:05:16,679 --> 01:05:19,519
not even gonna say that name because
that'll get out of control. So if

961
01:05:19,519 --> 01:05:23,320
I'm the Pelicans or I'm the Thunder, one of these teams needs to go

962
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,320
all in this summer, like let's
just see it, see it happen.

963
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:28,840
I'm not for waiting. I'm not
trying to. At the same time,

964
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:30,840
I'm not trying to ruin a rebuild
either, And so this is I would

965
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,880
call it a pleasantly hard truth,
but we don't need to gradual play this

966
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:38,880
for either team. And I also
think maybe the harder truth is neither of

967
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:43,519
these teams I think gets to the
championship APEX as currently constructed, and that's

968
01:05:43,519 --> 01:05:47,039
probably more aimed at New Orleans than
it is Oklahoma City, just because they

969
01:05:47,119 --> 01:05:49,840
have more established talent, and you
sort of know that. I don't know

970
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,840
what the Pelicans do at center long
term. I'm Jackson Hayes. I go

971
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,880
back and forth on Derk Favors is
good, he's not great, or you're

972
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,719
gonna pay him this summer? Is
Zion Williams and how is he going to

973
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:02,800
do at the five? If you
want to really lean into those minutes moving

974
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:06,000
forward. So I want to see
those teams by. I want to see

975
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,960
them use their mid levels, whichever
ones they have access to, the non

976
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:13,800
taxpayer for New Orleans, and then
depending on what Gallo cost, you know,

977
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:16,159
I'd resign him Fazo Oklahoma City and
try and run this back, because

978
01:06:16,159 --> 01:06:18,599
you could always move them if it's
not a terrible deal. I want to

979
01:06:18,599 --> 01:06:25,360
see those two teams by this offseason. I think the Thunder are the more

980
01:06:25,519 --> 01:06:28,760
intriguing of the two for me,
because I just feel like New Orleans is

981
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,440
more likely to slow play this because
they just, you know, they've got

982
01:06:31,559 --> 01:06:36,199
so many young guys that you could
just sort of be conservative, hope some

983
01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:41,079
of your picks hit going forward,
and then you've got just this ridiculous core.

984
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,719
Obviously, you know, that's sort
of ignoring the fact that you're going

985
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,960
to have to pay Ingram basically now
and you still got some other big contracts.

986
01:06:49,039 --> 01:06:54,199
But they seem more likely to kind
of take the gradual approach, even

987
01:06:54,199 --> 01:06:57,719
though I do agree they are positioned
to just, you know, swing real

988
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:02,440
big if they want to. The
Thunder are so draft pick rich that they

989
01:07:02,519 --> 01:07:09,239
could basically do this do both because
they could trade they could take a huge

990
01:07:09,239 --> 01:07:13,559
swing. Yeah, bring Gallo back. You know, you probably don't want

991
01:07:13,559 --> 01:07:15,719
to go too long on that one. But even if you do, you

992
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,440
still got a zillion first round picks
to attach if you ever have to trade

993
01:07:18,480 --> 01:07:20,880
them down the line. They could
trade a bunch of these picks, a

994
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,960
bunch of salad, or how whatever
they want to do, and still not

995
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:29,599
exhaust the treasure trove of all these
picks, so they could make a run

996
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,159
and get a big name and then
still just like, oh, well that

997
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:34,960
was cool for a year or two, Chris Paul's done. Now we got

998
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:38,599
all these first round picks. We
can get off all this money, or

999
01:07:38,679 --> 01:07:41,880
we can use these picks, wait
the money out and just retool. I

1000
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:47,159
mean, they are so just flush
that it's like not even risky for them

1001
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,480
to trade a bunch of picks or
to do whatever they need to do to

1002
01:07:50,559 --> 01:07:55,719
win now, because it's almost impossible
for them to give up so many assets

1003
01:07:55,960 --> 01:07:58,639
to win now that they wouldn't have
a chance to win later. And I

1004
01:07:58,679 --> 01:08:00,519
don't really think I can't remember the
last time. I guess you go back

1005
01:08:00,559 --> 01:08:05,599
to some of those Boston teams that
actually never really did uh, you know,

1006
01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:10,079
make the biggest trades and Danny Angels
always talking about like, oh,

1007
01:08:10,119 --> 01:08:13,840
we were in this, we were
in that. The Celtics obviously the position

1008
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,239
there and now they played it just
fine. But it's harder to think of

1009
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:20,279
a team that had the opportunity to
sort of just have everything both ways like

1010
01:08:20,319 --> 01:08:25,920
the thunder Do right now. You're
honest. Things surprised me. So you

1011
01:08:26,039 --> 01:08:30,960
think it's done. You think he's
gonna sign the Supermax. I maybe this

1012
01:08:30,079 --> 01:08:32,239
is more fair if he doesn't sign. I don't think he's leaving. I

1013
01:08:32,279 --> 01:08:34,600
think he ends up resigning him Milwaukee. So but at that point, why

1014
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:39,640
wouldn't you sign the Supermax? They
would take a total playoff implosion. I

1015
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,960
think for him not to sign the
Supermax right now, and so that led

1016
01:08:43,000 --> 01:08:46,119
me into it would be Another hard
truth is twenty one free agency is gonna

1017
01:08:46,159 --> 01:08:49,279
suck. Oh that's like, that's
a hot take, Dan, Sorry,

1018
01:08:49,359 --> 01:08:51,520
but that's a hot take. That's
not a hard truth. That's a hot

1019
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:57,239
take because everybody thinks that it's gonna
be great. Let's look at the names

1020
01:08:57,680 --> 01:08:59,960
that are making it great. I
don't disagree with you, by the way,

1021
01:09:00,079 --> 01:09:02,079
I'm just saying that the conventional wisdom
says, twenty twenty one is like

1022
01:09:02,159 --> 01:09:05,479
the Holy Grail of free agent classes? Right? And so are Paul George

1023
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:09,399
and Quine Letter who both have player
options. Are they gonna leave the team

1024
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:14,119
that they chose to play for together? No? Probably don't know. May

1025
01:09:14,199 --> 01:09:17,039
I mean maybe Lebron James has a
player option that year? Is he going

1026
01:09:17,119 --> 01:09:20,079
to leave Anthony Davis? If he
and if he does, where's where's he

1027
01:09:20,119 --> 01:09:23,760
actually going? Would you go?
Just go back to Cleveland? That's just

1028
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:28,239
his FREEBC? Isn't that interesting to
me? Then you have Chris Chris Paul

1029
01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:30,079
is not going to decline his player
option. I think we can all be

1030
01:09:30,159 --> 01:09:34,680
pretty clear about that. Blake Blake
Griffin's not going to decline his player option.

1031
01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:38,920
Gordon Hayward will be on the market
as well Mike Conley. But are

1032
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:43,039
either of those top twenty five players. No, they're like mid level guys

1033
01:09:43,079 --> 01:09:45,760
because they're gonna be thirty one and
thirty three. Wow, mid levels.

1034
01:09:46,079 --> 01:09:50,079
That that's a hot take. You're
gonna pay Mike Conley more than that after

1035
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:56,239
what you watched this year. Probably
Gordon Hayward as mid level though, all

1036
01:09:56,359 --> 01:10:00,319
right, that's harsh take. I
guess Kyle Lowry's interesting, but it'll also

1037
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:04,600
be he'll be thirty five at that
point. Damar de Rosen's value a sort

1038
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:08,760
of crater. You need to surround
him with just four shooters who can defend,

1039
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,560
and he's not. I don't think
he's that great of a player to

1040
01:10:12,399 --> 01:10:17,199
go to that length for So then
that leaves you with Rudy Gobert like that's

1041
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,319
he's a primetime free agent, don't
I. And that's if he gets there.

1042
01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:25,479
Drew Holliday has a player option,
My guests would be he declines it

1043
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,680
twenty six point four million just because
he's like kind of in that sweet spot

1044
01:10:28,720 --> 01:10:33,039
where he could probably sign another long
term deal. Joannie might sign it an

1045
01:10:33,079 --> 01:10:39,840
extension with the Bucks or just stay
in Milwaukee. Victor Oladipo, what is

1046
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,640
he going to look like post injury? And if he's there's a chance he

1047
01:10:42,720 --> 01:10:45,279
signs an extension still too, I
don't know if I don't think the Pacers

1048
01:10:45,359 --> 01:10:47,920
really want to pay him what he
would demand. So let's just assume he

1049
01:10:48,079 --> 01:10:53,279
reaches the free agency market. But
if this is there's a realistic scenario in

1050
01:10:53,359 --> 01:10:56,560
which the top prize is on the
twenty twenty one free agency market or Drew

1051
01:10:56,600 --> 01:11:00,119
Holliday and Victor Ladipo to me,
and that just makes it a lot less

1052
01:11:00,159 --> 01:11:04,079
interesting because you know, everyone below
them, like cool, Danny Green is

1053
01:11:04,119 --> 01:11:06,319
going to be a free agent.
I'd love Danny Green, but he's going

1054
01:11:06,359 --> 01:11:12,960
to be whatever your bite, your
tongue talking about Danny Green. Danny Green

1055
01:11:13,039 --> 01:11:15,840
is phenomenal, but I'm just saying
one is not going to be the banger

1056
01:11:16,239 --> 01:11:20,800
that everyone thinks it's going to be. So all the player options definitely serve

1057
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:25,279
your point, because, like you
said, there's a lot of guys that

1058
01:11:25,359 --> 01:11:28,520
are going to be on the wrong
side of thirty in a very uncertain financial

1059
01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:31,640
landscape that might want to just take
the mid thirty million dollar a year they've

1060
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:36,720
got and you know, run it
back for twenty two. The other thing

1061
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:41,479
is there's so many guys that are
over thirty. All the almost all the

1062
01:11:41,560 --> 01:11:45,199
big names are over thirty, which
and you know, potentially just inching closer

1063
01:11:45,279 --> 01:11:49,560
and closer to being washed while still
being big names, which Dan means that

1064
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:53,279
at least two of them are going
to sign with the Knicks, So you're

1065
01:11:53,359 --> 01:11:57,479
gonna be seeing, like you know
what, Gordon Hayward and Mike Conley near

1066
01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,039
me too. New York Knicks starters
for twenty one twenty two season market down.

1067
01:12:01,239 --> 01:12:03,720
Wow, they're gonna have Mike Conley
and Chris Paul on the same team.

1068
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:09,199
That's where's Chris Paul going to play
next year? If you if you

1069
01:12:09,279 --> 01:12:11,199
have, I mean, I know
we want to just talk about the thunder,

1070
01:12:11,319 --> 01:12:14,840
but we should. I'm just curious
on your thoughts. He should be

1071
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:17,079
playing for the Jazz or the Sixers. Those are the teams that he should

1072
01:12:17,079 --> 01:12:20,840
be playing for. Miami, of
course, if the honest attent to Koopo

1073
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:25,279
signs the Supermax, He's going to
be playing for the Knicks. That's just

1074
01:12:25,399 --> 01:12:29,159
my gut feeling at this point.
It kind of feels that way. It

1075
01:12:29,279 --> 01:12:31,239
really kind of does feel that way. That's why the Knicks made me think

1076
01:12:31,279 --> 01:12:36,600
of him too. You know what, though, the East isn't that hard

1077
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:41,600
to make playoffs Chris Paul with like
a couple upgrades and afart Jar that just

1078
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:44,800
shouldn't be the goal though, But
it always is. It always is.

1079
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:46,560
Sorry, but that's always the goal. I don't care who's in charge anymore,

1080
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:51,079
it doesn't matter. It's systemic.
I'm totally with you. Do you

1081
01:12:51,199 --> 01:12:55,439
have I have one more hard truth. Do you have another one? Uh?

1082
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,880
Not anyone that I'm itching to get
to. So let's hear yours.

1083
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:04,800
I am very concerned about the Brooklyn
Nets future. We talked about this last

1084
01:13:04,840 --> 01:13:08,319
time. Oh did we that?
Maybe? I know, let's hear it.

1085
01:13:08,600 --> 01:13:12,079
I have not grown less concerned.
Let's let's do it. I don't

1086
01:13:12,199 --> 01:13:15,960
think here's what. So we already
talked about the injuries to Irving En Durant

1087
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:17,359
and I actually had a long podcast
about this with The Daily News is Christian

1088
01:13:17,359 --> 01:13:19,159
Winfields, So I'm not going to
step on the toes of that. I

1089
01:13:19,520 --> 01:13:24,680
really don't believe that they should be
going out there trying to consolidate their talent

1090
01:13:24,840 --> 01:13:28,479
into a third star. And so
maybe this is the I don't think it's

1091
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:30,560
a harder truth to digest. Maybe
if you're not a Nets fan, it

1092
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:32,840
might be. But they have more
intriguing trade packages than people are giving them

1093
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:39,000
credit for. Jared Allen cast control
for now, but just sort of a

1094
01:13:39,079 --> 01:13:41,960
nice throwing and who centers don't really
cost that much anyway, So getting him

1095
01:13:42,039 --> 01:13:44,760
right before restricted free agency I don't
think ends up being a huge deal.

1096
01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:47,760
Cara Slavert is on a very reasonable
contract. I remain high on him just

1097
01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:50,399
for his off the dribble creation and
I think he's shown a lot as a

1098
01:13:50,439 --> 01:13:55,880
passer as well. You have Spencer
Dinwoodie could hit free agency after next year,

1099
01:13:56,359 --> 01:13:59,680
obviously, but just a great another
type of shock creator player. And

1100
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:02,079
then if you would throw in just
you know they have other salary matching Torrian

1101
01:14:02,119 --> 01:14:05,399
Prince for salary matching. But if
you throw in distant first round picks for

1102
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:10,720
this team, that becomes very interesting. Because of the Kevin Durant Kyrie Irving

1103
01:14:10,800 --> 01:14:14,439
situation, they have player options on
their fourth year, so who knows whether

1104
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:15,800
they stay, who knows where the
Nets look like at that point, whether

1105
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:19,760
those two are even playing well at
the same time, just because I don't

1106
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:24,039
know what you're gonna get from Durant
and Kyrriving. I think depth ends up

1107
01:14:24,079 --> 01:14:29,079
being more important than having a third
star, And there's an overall debate between

1108
01:14:29,159 --> 01:14:31,640
what's better, let's say, having
three stars or having two stars and just

1109
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:39,079
more of a digestible or like rotation
below them where you can go eight or

1110
01:14:39,199 --> 01:14:42,239
nine guys deep. The Nets have
the potential to get there. If you

1111
01:14:42,279 --> 01:14:45,600
resign Joe Harris, you have Jared
Allen carrisa Vert, Spencer Dinwoody. You

1112
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:48,600
need to go that route until you
know what Kyrie Irving or Kevin Durant is.

1113
01:14:48,680 --> 01:14:53,920
So I'm talking about specifically this offseason
that I think trading for a third

1114
01:14:54,000 --> 01:14:58,359
star would be a mistake if insofar
as they can and I don't know who,

1115
01:14:59,159 --> 01:15:00,640
I don't know if there's an you
personally could throw out there that would

1116
01:15:00,680 --> 01:15:05,199
make me second guest this take,
But on the scale of where I'm looking

1117
01:15:05,239 --> 01:15:09,159
at, even if Joel Embiide became
available and then NETS could get him,

1118
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:12,880
I wouldn't do that for them,
just because now you're atting another injury plague

1119
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:15,760
star into the equation on a huge
money deal, and I think depth is

1120
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:20,119
more important for them and the Bradley
Beal stuff. The Daily News talked about

1121
01:15:20,119 --> 01:15:24,000
this, and Brian Winners of the
ESPN has mentioned it. Then NETS seemed

1122
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:28,079
like they're very much in on Bradley
Beal. I get you want a score

1123
01:15:28,159 --> 01:15:30,960
at his level. If you don't
think Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving are going

1124
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:34,600
to be a reliably available or be, particularly in Durant's case, the same

1125
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:38,960
player, but like what happens on
defense, then I'm not saying that dim

1126
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:43,000
Woody or Lavert or these lockdown defenders, but like you've now invested all of

1127
01:15:43,079 --> 01:15:47,119
your resources in you know, Kevin
Durant was is a good defender when he

1128
01:15:47,760 --> 01:15:50,600
was a good defender when he was
healthy. Kyrie Irving, we saw some

1129
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:55,640
good moments from him in Boston,
but like Bradley Beale has been atrocious this

1130
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:58,800
year. And even if you take
the best seasons defensively from Kyrie Irving and

1131
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:03,359
Bradley Beale, you probably have close
still a below average that court defense.

1132
01:16:03,479 --> 01:16:06,800
That's what I would how I would
spin it, and I'm I understand that

1133
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:11,680
Lavert is going to require reinvestment at
some point and so Dimwitty, But there's

1134
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,680
just I would rather see the Nets
divvy up their their resources, their cap

1135
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:18,920
space rather than go after a Big
three model that I think is just going

1136
01:16:19,000 --> 01:16:24,439
to the crater. Just looking under
the context that it would come for them,

1137
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:27,239
you have to at least see what
Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant are,

1138
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,520
not just together next season, but
specifically with Kevin Durant, what he looks

1139
01:16:30,560 --> 01:16:32,800
like. And so that's my I
think most people would say, look,

1140
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:38,600
if the Nets you can turn their
available assets into a stars at Victor Oladipo,

1141
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:40,640
is it? Is it, Bradley
Billy, You absolutely do it.

1142
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:44,159
I just I wouldn't. I need
to see what Kyrie Irving and Kevin Durant

1143
01:16:44,199 --> 01:16:48,720
are before you obliterate what depth you've
put together. So I think what I

1144
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:53,800
would say to that is if you
look at and it's always unfair to use

1145
01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:58,640
the Warriors as a point in comparison, but I look, they were the

1146
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:00,479
best team in the league or very
close to it for like five years,

1147
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:04,760
So sort of that's what I'm using
as sort of a baseline. And I

1148
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:12,279
think if you know, in addition
to multiple and two might be enough superstar

1149
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:17,199
scoring, you know, guys like
Durant and Irving could maybe be I'm with

1150
01:17:17,319 --> 01:17:19,319
you. I don't. I don't
think. Maybe I'm not with you.

1151
01:17:19,359 --> 01:17:23,760
Maybe this is just me. I
don't think that those two are good enough

1152
01:17:24,159 --> 01:17:29,279
will or will be good enough or
reliable enough, or have the capacity to

1153
01:17:29,439 --> 01:17:33,199
lead a winning team at this stage
together. But you need two guys like

1154
01:17:33,399 --> 01:17:38,760
that, and then you need a
whole bunch of guys that are dramatically outplaying

1155
01:17:39,399 --> 01:17:44,359
their salaries. And so to your
point, if you go get a third

1156
01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:47,000
star, the best you can hope
for is a guy that plays up to

1157
01:17:47,159 --> 01:17:50,760
his salary, and then you've stripped
away all of your other value. Add

1158
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:54,840
guys that are outperforming what they're being
paid. So just use Bill as an

1159
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:58,279
example. He'll be worth whatever he's
gonna make. He's very good. But

1160
01:17:58,359 --> 01:18:03,159
then to do that, you're losing
din Witty or some combination of din Witty,

1161
01:18:03,239 --> 01:18:09,159
Lavert Allen, all of whom I
think are very very likely to play

1162
01:18:09,399 --> 01:18:14,680
well above what they're being paid going
forward. And so because I think you

1163
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:19,520
need both, you need superstars and
you need a bunch of guys who several

1164
01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:25,479
a couple of whom pop Like let's
say Lavert becomes an All Star unlikely but

1165
01:18:25,640 --> 01:18:29,399
possible, and he's gonna make sixteen
million dollars next year. Like that's the

1166
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:32,920
kind of thing you need. That
And that's really what made the Warriors able

1167
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:35,920
to do what they did. You
know, they had not to mention a

1168
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:40,119
bunch of like David West on the
minimum like things like that. But Livingston

1169
01:18:40,199 --> 01:18:44,600
and we're playing, you know,
way more than providing more than at certainly

1170
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:47,119
at least in the playoffs, then
he was being paid. Draymond Green doing

1171
01:18:47,359 --> 01:18:50,680
much more than you know, his
salary would indicate should be expected of him.

1172
01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:54,720
Clay Thompson the same way, talking
about their previous contracts, not these

1173
01:18:54,760 --> 01:18:57,720
ones that they're on now. But
you need all that stuff, And if

1174
01:18:57,720 --> 01:19:00,479
you go trade for a big third
star, in addition to not knowing what

1175
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,159
Durant and Irving are going to give
you, you're totally removing the possibility of

1176
01:19:04,239 --> 01:19:09,079
getting you know, these above market
values, which I think you just you

1177
01:19:09,199 --> 01:19:11,800
got to have a bunch of them
to win a title. Look at the

1178
01:19:11,880 --> 01:19:16,600
Raptors last year another another example.
I just I just think the third star

1179
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:21,399
is the the you know, the
ticket seller if tickets gets sold, the

1180
01:19:23,159 --> 01:19:26,159
appealing idea, but it's not.
I yeah, it's not going to do

1181
01:19:26,239 --> 01:19:29,520
it. I think their best,
they're most likely path through a title,

1182
01:19:29,600 --> 01:19:32,319
as unlikely as all those paths appear
to me, is to rely on the

1183
01:19:32,399 --> 01:19:36,119
guys they've already signed to really good
deals and just hope it works. That's

1184
01:19:36,199 --> 01:19:41,119
that that seems like the only way
to do it. I'm totally with you

1185
01:19:41,199 --> 01:19:44,680
there, And so I'm I forgot
that we had had a lengthy podcast about

1186
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:45,520
this, so I won't spend any
more time on it, but I'm in

1187
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:49,279
full agreement with you, and the
nets are just a fascinating situation to look

1188
01:19:49,319 --> 01:19:51,800
at. I think if Durant and
Irving, or if Durant was going to

1189
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:55,680
be the player he was in ok
Se England State, you have no problem

1190
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:59,159
with the direction the franchise is ended
in and the power that they've given to

1191
01:19:59,199 --> 01:20:01,560
these players who have you know,
frankly over their career, particularly Durant has

1192
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:06,680
really just earned the benefit of the
doubt there. But just they've everything from

1193
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:11,000
what the nets were that attracted Kevin
Durant and Kyrie Irving to them, or

1194
01:20:11,359 --> 01:20:14,439
at least that's what they said,
to what they are now. They're just

1195
01:20:14,840 --> 01:20:18,119
they're traveling this just rickety slope and
it's it's going to be fascinating to see

1196
01:20:18,119 --> 01:20:20,319
how it plays out. And I
just don't think it's going to end.

1197
01:20:20,760 --> 01:20:25,079
I won't say we'll end up poorly, but I definitely don't think if they

1198
01:20:25,159 --> 01:20:30,439
consolidate this roster that it it ends
it culminates with them being a legitimate title

1199
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:32,840
contender. It might just be one
of those like cutesy like oh yeah,

1200
01:20:33,039 --> 01:20:35,920
like yeah, we could envision a
path if all these people get injured to

1201
01:20:35,960 --> 01:20:41,880
them making it to the championship round. I mean, honestly, it's sort

1202
01:20:41,920 --> 01:20:45,239
of this is an unfair comparison,
but it's it sort of feels like when

1203
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:47,800
I guess it's a little different,
but when Brooklyn, you know, oh

1204
01:20:47,840 --> 01:20:50,079
we got Kevin Garnett, we got
Paul Pierce. Now we got you know,

1205
01:20:50,199 --> 01:20:56,560
different circumstances. But it's like,
look, there were indications that this

1206
01:20:56,760 --> 01:21:00,720
was not going to go great when
they signed Irving and Durant, because Durant

1207
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:04,640
coming off the injury, Irving basically
leaving his second team in a row on

1208
01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:10,119
bad terms, Like, there were
definitely signs that this wasn't The names are

1209
01:21:10,199 --> 01:21:12,760
one thing, right, you see
Durant, you see Irving. You think

1210
01:21:12,800 --> 01:21:15,560
of their careers, and it's like, we're in business, right, But

1211
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:19,159
really, even if you strip away
all the other things we just talked about,

1212
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:24,119
you know, I don't I don't
think it was ever realistic to think

1213
01:21:24,159 --> 01:21:28,279
there was a title ceiling just because
we got these two guys considering sort of

1214
01:21:28,319 --> 01:21:31,960
where they were in their careers when
the Nets got them. That's I get

1215
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:35,439
the spirit of it. But I
think what really helps the situation is Kevin

1216
01:21:35,520 --> 01:21:40,039
Durant and Kaby Irving are still younger
than Piercing Garnett, where even though the

1217
01:21:40,119 --> 01:21:44,600
Durant injury is obviously unprecedented for the
caliber of player that he is, the

1218
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:47,600
other thing is that they have yet
to at least stripped down their future because

1219
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:49,960
of it, So they didn't get
up all those future assets to get them

1220
01:21:50,319 --> 01:21:54,319
totally different for that reason. Yeah
and yeah, but more and more of

1221
01:21:54,399 --> 01:21:57,000
the idea of like, look at
these names we got were ready to go,

1222
01:21:57,079 --> 01:21:59,520
because I remember when all those guys
came together, it was like,

1223
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:01,920
man, the Nets are as good
as anybody in the East. It's just

1224
01:22:02,159 --> 01:22:06,439
you know, that was a poor
comparison. But think about where the Nets

1225
01:22:06,600 --> 01:22:12,119
were last summer. They knew Kevin
Durant weren't wasn't going to play, but

1226
01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:15,199
you landed Kyrie Irving, you had
Kevin Durant, I mean, you had

1227
01:22:15,239 --> 01:22:20,159
DeAndre Jordan. But there were good
vibes with carousel Vert because of how well

1228
01:22:20,199 --> 01:22:24,199
he played in the playoffs and even
before his injury during the regular season last

1229
01:22:24,279 --> 01:22:26,920
year. And just look at the
roster now where you had a sign Jamaal

1230
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:30,840
Crawford just the field, an actual
rotation in the bubble. Yeah, they

1231
01:22:31,319 --> 01:22:34,880
well, somebody was somebody tweeted it
might have been. Christian Winfield tweeted,

1232
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:40,319
Uh, like the Nets had like
six or seven former Nicks too, which

1233
01:22:40,359 --> 01:22:43,600
were a joke, but like it
was kind of nuts that that really was,

1234
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:45,560
like, Oh, there's a little
bit of overlap here. That's not

1235
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:47,359
a good thing. I'm insured to
see what they do with Joe Harrison free

1236
01:22:47,399 --> 01:22:50,159
agency too, because I feel like
he's still one of the players that even

1237
01:22:50,239 --> 01:22:54,920
in a cap star of market,
could end up getting more than the mL

1238
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:59,079
E because he fits offensively anywhere,
and it seems like he's the player that

1239
01:22:59,119 --> 01:23:02,119
a NETS team wouldn't but that maybe
Kyrie Irving wouldn't value. And I'm only

1240
01:23:02,159 --> 01:23:05,680
saying that because Kyrie Irving sounded like
he wanted to trade half the roster during

1241
01:23:05,680 --> 01:23:08,960
the middle of the season, right. Well, that's the other thing,

1242
01:23:09,079 --> 01:23:12,279
is I mean, if sort of
wherever Harris winds up, I think,

1243
01:23:12,479 --> 01:23:15,880
and if it's Brooklyn, he'll be
out of that class of guys that are

1244
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:19,319
sort of underpaid, I think,
because I agree, like there's nowhere that

1245
01:23:19,399 --> 01:23:26,399
he doesn't fit because shooting travels,
elite elite elite shooting travels, So if

1246
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:30,840
he makes I don't know, I
mean, if he makes the MLI is

1247
01:23:30,880 --> 01:23:33,000
the absolute minimum for him, I
think, And if the Nets, if

1248
01:23:33,039 --> 01:23:36,079
you get him for the non taxpayers
MLI, whether you're the NETS or another

1249
01:23:36,159 --> 01:23:40,159
team, I don't maybe I'll fall
short of saying that's an absolute steal,

1250
01:23:40,279 --> 01:23:44,880
but that's good value. That's that's
a steal, I think, just because

1251
01:23:45,199 --> 01:23:47,880
what he does for everybody else that's
on the floor with him. But yeah,

1252
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:51,680
like if the NETS have to contend
with some other team that's you know,

1253
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:56,039
one of the few with cap space. It's like we're thinking fifteen sixteen

1254
01:23:56,119 --> 01:23:59,439
a year for Joe Harris and then
Nets have to beat that. Then suddenly

1255
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:02,680
he's sort are properly paid, which
is not what they need. Well,

1256
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:08,199
do you have any other hard truths? I think my last hard truth is

1257
01:24:08,239 --> 01:24:11,560
I don't have any more hard truths
for you. That's sad. But our

1258
01:24:11,600 --> 01:24:15,000
listeners might be all six of you
might be happy that this is over because

1259
01:24:15,039 --> 01:24:17,199
we've gone for almost a buck twenty
nice, nice long podcasts to take you

1260
01:24:17,319 --> 01:24:20,479
in to the weekend. Though,
Grant, thank you as always for coming

1261
01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:25,199
on and spending so much time speaking
with me. If you're not following Grant

1262
01:24:25,279 --> 01:24:29,399
on Twitter at gt underscore U spelled
exactly as it sounds, and I just

1263
01:24:29,479 --> 01:24:30,560
want to remind you doing this at
the end of the podcast. Now,

1264
01:24:30,640 --> 01:24:34,119
please please, pretty please, with
sugar on top. Please continue rating,

1265
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:38,960
reviewing, and subscribing to us wherever
you get your podcasts. No matter where

1266
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:41,319
you get your podcasts, though,
if you could pop into iTunes, throw

1267
01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:44,560
us that five star rating and write
a review, those help us a ton

1268
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:46,920
if it includes constructive criticism, give
us the five star of you and write

1269
01:24:46,960 --> 01:24:51,199
whatever you want. I'm partial two
takes about Adam's calves, so go ahead

1270
01:24:51,600 --> 01:24:56,800
over there. We very much appreciate
that. Follow us on Twitter at Hardwood

1271
01:24:56,840 --> 01:25:00,279
Knocks. You can follow us on
YouTube search YouTube go to YouTube search Hardwinnox

1272
01:25:00,399 --> 01:25:03,279
will be right there. But Grant, thank you so much for coming on.

1273
01:25:03,319 --> 01:25:06,199
I really enjoyed this discussion. My
pleasure. Thanks