1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:49,159 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to the Mind of Her Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,320 Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by bestselling authors Eliza Rodman 11 00:00:54,359 --> 00:00:59,000 and Jennifer Jordan, authors of The Babysitter, My Summer with His Serial Killer 12 00:00:59,359 --> 00:01:02,560 jenn and Lies. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks for 13 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,040 having me us. We're very excited to have you. It's great to have 14 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,680 you back. Can you guys take a minute and just remind our listeners who 15 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,920 you are and how you are ultimately involved in the true crime space. We'll 16 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:18,480 start with Eliza and then moved to Jenna. Hey, as you said, 17 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,079 my name's Liza Rodman. This is my first book. It's also a memoir, 18 00:01:22,719 --> 00:01:25,799 The Babysitter, My summers with a serial killer. And Jenna and I 19 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:30,079 have been friends for forty five years, and so we co arthured and that's 20 00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:36,120 how we ended up here at Mind Over Murder and I am Jennifer Jordan's my 21 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,400 fifth book. Liza. I can't believe it's been forty five years, but 22 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:42,719 she doesn't lie, so it must be. And I come to this story 23 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:49,280 not only as a lifelong friend of Liza's, but as an investigative journalist. 24 00:01:49,719 --> 00:01:56,400 And so when Liza discovered this amazing story in her life, at one point 25 00:01:56,439 --> 00:02:00,000 in her sketching it out, realized she needed some help with a narrative, 26 00:02:00,319 --> 00:02:04,159 and I offered to be that help. And here we are. And I 27 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:07,879 love being called a best selling author. Thank you for that. That just 28 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:12,000 brains just I'm going to put it on my next and my next Facebook post. 29 00:02:12,159 --> 00:02:15,360 You don't get tired of that, That's okay, you really don't it's 30 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:23,719 a tremendous book currently out in paperback correct and maybe has anybody reached out to 31 00:02:23,719 --> 00:02:25,599 you about optioning it for a TV series or something, because I think it 32 00:02:25,599 --> 00:02:31,240 would be awesome if it was. We are in negotiations. That's fantastic. 33 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:36,680 I love that. I know it's exciting. Liza. The reason we reached 34 00:02:36,719 --> 00:02:39,560 out to you and Jen to join us again on the podcast is because you 35 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:45,680 had posted an article from Sarah Winman in The New York Times that I also 36 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,960 found very interesting. And when I commented, oh, did you read that 37 00:02:50,039 --> 00:02:52,400 too, you had said yes, and we should come back on the pod 38 00:02:52,439 --> 00:02:57,599 to talk about it, and we wholeheartedly, enthusiastically agreed. So for anybody 39 00:02:57,599 --> 00:03:00,759 who has not read this article by Sarah Wyman, can you give us just 40 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:06,039 a quick rundown of Sarah's major concerns with the idea of truth in the true 41 00:03:06,039 --> 00:03:09,080 crime space. I think that was it wasn't it that people who are writing 42 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:15,639 true crime are getting just a little too far away and this is just completely 43 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:19,960 simplified, but a little too far away from the true part of true crime. 44 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,120 She has a lot to say about that. It's a guest essay in 45 00:03:23,159 --> 00:03:28,520 the New York Times and it's worth the read because she's right. Truth is 46 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,400 a funny thing to talk about. Jen and I had a lot of conversations 47 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:38,599 about that topic as we were writing, because as memories ready watery, so 48 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,960 as we were writing The Babysitter, it came up over and over again. 49 00:03:42,039 --> 00:03:46,960 So just and Sarah blurred the Babysitter, so I follow her on her social 50 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:51,400 media post, so it was really interesting too. And Jenn and I have 51 00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:55,520 talked a lot over the two years that the book's been out about the misinformation 52 00:03:55,639 --> 00:04:00,680 in the Costa case alone. And the Costa case is a small, relatively 53 00:04:00,719 --> 00:04:04,879 speaking case. So if there's a junk, I call it the sewer of 54 00:04:04,919 --> 00:04:10,719 misinformation. And if there's junk in the Costa case, you can imagine the 55 00:04:10,879 --> 00:04:14,560 kind of untruths that come with a big case like Ted Bundy or somebody like 56 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:17,560 that. Before we move into the junk in the Costa case, which is 57 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:23,279 a fascinating conversation in and of itself, help us out with blurbed, you 58 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:29,480 said, Sarah Wyman, Blurbed, explain for our listeners what that means. 59 00:04:30,199 --> 00:04:33,360 So what that means is that when you write a book, advanced copies go 60 00:04:33,399 --> 00:04:39,000 out to other authors in the genre in which you're writing, and the publisher 61 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:44,439 will ask that they read the book and provide just a few sentences about the 62 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,959 book, how they felt about the book, what they think about the subject 63 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:51,839 matter, just a quick few sentences, and it's known as a blurb in 64 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,720 publication talk, and it'll end up on the back cover or it'll end up 65 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,720 in an advertisement somewhere. Well, that's the kind of thing, and Sarah 66 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,519 was one of the people who was kind enough to do that for us. 67 00:05:04,079 --> 00:05:09,439 And the larger the personality, the closer to the front of the book, 68 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,800 and the larger the type it will appear in. If you can get Barack 69 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,759 Obama to blurb your book, it's going to be bigger than the title, 70 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:23,360 right, and certainly bigger than the author's name. If you can get Oprah 71 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:27,839 to talk about I laughed, I cried, I lost control of my bodily 72 00:05:27,879 --> 00:05:32,079 functions. That would be ideal. You can get Oprah's name on that book. 73 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:40,040 It's a bestseller before it's published. And then sometimes if I didn't realize 74 00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:43,480 it, we tried, we tried, we tried, Yeah, we tried, 75 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,639 yeah, And people call it it's a blurb. It's a couple of 76 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:53,040 sentences about just how great this book is. That's right, why you should 77 00:05:53,079 --> 00:05:57,920 read it. Yeah, let's actually go ahead and start talking about this sewer 78 00:05:57,959 --> 00:06:01,240 of misinformation. And I love that term. And Jim, with your background 79 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:08,639 and investigative journalism, I know that you're probably very aware of how important it 80 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,879 is to que as close to the truth as possible when you're telling a story. 81 00:06:13,879 --> 00:06:16,680 What are some of the issues that you're aware of or that you're seeing 82 00:06:16,759 --> 00:06:20,920 as a reader of true crime, not just related to the Tony Costa case, 83 00:06:20,959 --> 00:06:25,920 but just related to crime in general. For it is not even hewing 84 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,240 to the truth. I mean, if it's not the truth, I, 85 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,360 as a journalist can't won't print it. And in fact one and I will 86 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:39,839 refer to the Tony Costa case just briefly, one of the cold case scenarios 87 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:43,680 that Lies and I were able to solve started with the fact that I was 88 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:49,720 not able to write the sentence or repeat the sentence that every single article about 89 00:06:49,759 --> 00:06:56,160 Tony had stated that and these three girls were never seen alive again. As 90 00:06:56,199 --> 00:07:00,759 I got to that paragraph and tried to write that, as can't do it, 91 00:07:00,959 --> 00:07:02,480 I don't know that they're not alive because their bodies were never found. 92 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:08,279 So long story short, we discovered that in fact, Tony did not kill 93 00:07:08,319 --> 00:07:12,240 them, that they were all dead, but not by Tony's hand. So, 94 00:07:12,319 --> 00:07:15,120 I, as a journalist and now in the true crime genre, which 95 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:20,600 I have not been in before, have been just astounded by how it's not 96 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:27,879 even true crime that's selling. It's the sensationalism and the salaciousness of true crime 97 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:34,199 that is the perhaps the root of the story that then is just exploited to 98 00:07:34,199 --> 00:07:39,040 sell the books and to sell the film and to you know, take it 99 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,079 to Netflix. And I haven't been in on those conversations, but I've been 100 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,439 in on enough of lies as in my conversations with would be producers, to 101 00:07:46,639 --> 00:07:54,920 know that it's really about how how huge and how electric and how explosive the 102 00:07:54,959 --> 00:08:01,399 story is that they're interested in. They really don't care that the facts might 103 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:07,720 not be as grotesque as laurd, as sellable as the truth is. So 104 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,279 it's been for me as a journalist in many different fields. We could go 105 00:08:13,319 --> 00:08:18,360 down the list of the news every night and you just know that it's not 106 00:08:18,399 --> 00:08:24,800 one hundred percent that the reporters are having to cut corners because the producers are 107 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,639 like, oh, yeah, but that'll really that'll flash big on the banner 108 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:35,559 of the five o'clock news. So the stories are considered not sensational enough. 109 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:41,720 Therefore we have to jazz them up with crap that didn't happen. Because a 110 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:46,039 lot of people, a lot of murders happen, and a lot of murders 111 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:50,559 gruesomely happen. But in order to make it a book, make it a 112 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,759 film, it's got too unfortunately, in too many cases, got to include 113 00:08:56,799 --> 00:09:01,799 a few little tidbits that who's going to check and who's going to know in 114 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,919 the long run anyway, who's going to care? We see it all the 115 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,639 time in other genres besides true crime. Then we see all the changing the 116 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:18,000 genres to memoirs, true crimes nonfiction just have two. They're based in a 117 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:26,440 story. But then the writer just uses the uses the license of I did 118 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:30,399 the research I could, and I talked to the people I could. But 119 00:09:30,639 --> 00:09:33,840 oh, there's something somebody else that says something else. I'm not interested so 120 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:35,559 much in that part of the story. So it happens all the time. 121 00:09:37,639 --> 00:09:39,440 The story, of course, that tends to come to my mind the most, 122 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,759 and that just tends to be because I teach this in my AP courses. 123 00:09:43,919 --> 00:09:46,519 I do tend to think about Truman, Capote and in Cold Blood and 124 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,320 the art artistic license, I guess is maybe the politest way to put it, 125 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:54,279 that he took with a lot of aspects of those stories and about it 126 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,120 he was arrogant about he was creating a new genre. You see some of 127 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,080 that now too, See some of that now, yeah, And I won't 128 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:09,720 belabor this, but what got me into all of this nonfiction writing after the 129 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:15,639 journalism was Into Thin Air by John Krakauer. Yeah, interviewing every single person 130 00:10:15,759 --> 00:10:18,600 who had that I could find that was still alive from that nineteen ninety six 131 00:10:18,639 --> 00:10:24,720 expedition that told a totally different story than the one he made a best seller 132 00:10:24,799 --> 00:10:31,639 out of. And so it was following those threads of that truth that led 133 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,480 me to this kind of holy shit, what is going on here? The 134 00:10:35,519 --> 00:10:41,120 whole thing was like a journalist's account, not so much, not so much 135 00:10:41,159 --> 00:10:43,440 as one of the people there said to me, he's a good writer of 136 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:48,879 fiction. But it happens in all genres. And I think the true crime, 137 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:56,000 given how popular it is, ironically popular it is these days, it's 138 00:10:56,039 --> 00:11:01,600 just it's just rife with fraud. We may need to have a conversation about 139 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,120 that. Crack. Our book isn't something I'm considering teaching. Thing. Oh 140 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:09,919 and I loved the book. I thought it was fantastic. But I did 141 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,399 too until I started digging into this story. Wow, oh wow. Okay, 142 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,679 now I'm curious about whether or not there are issues with Into the Wild, 143 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:20,440 because that's why I am teaching for next year. Oh my god, 144 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:26,679 we need to have a conversation of heaven. Yeah, we could go on 145 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,120 the other side of that argument, though, jen is, for instance, 146 00:11:30,639 --> 00:11:35,519 the story about when we worked on the Babysitter together and my siblings all had 147 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:41,919 different perspectives of what had happened. So there's that too. In addition to 148 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:46,519 outright fraud, there's the issue, and it's a big one. It's really 149 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:50,559 a big one that everybody who got a family of six siblings can all have 150 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,720 a different experience about the same thing. Liza, you referenced that a moment 151 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,440 ago, and we should talk about that for a second. Here are incidents 152 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:03,919 that happened years ago, maybe more. It is a valid point that here 153 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:11,080 you are with all of your siblings, and everybody's recollections were very different, 154 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:16,360 even if you're not going to wear the fiction writer hat and say I'm going 155 00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:20,000 to embellish the crap out of this thing, and I'm gonna make up stuff, 156 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,919 and I'm gonna describe scenes that never happened. Even going with an effort 157 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:31,080 to tell the story as accurately as you can, all the different perspectives of 158 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,679 the people that lived it are different. And that's why in The Babysitter, 159 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:41,919 what we did was is I took everybody else's memories and mine and put together 160 00:12:41,039 --> 00:12:46,639 a composite so that, for instance, my brother had some great memories that 161 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,960 I'd forgotten, but as soon as he mentioned them, I remembered them, 162 00:12:50,039 --> 00:12:54,480 because of course I was the oldest and so I had more recall than any 163 00:12:54,519 --> 00:12:58,600 of them. So we did it. I did it that way because I 164 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:03,519 knew what my memories were, I knew what my images were. I knew 165 00:13:03,879 --> 00:13:07,879 how creepy it felt, even though I never really understood why. I thought 166 00:13:07,879 --> 00:13:11,720 it was my mother that was a creepy part, which was the great irony 167 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:16,600 in the book, because indeed she was preppier than him. But that is 168 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:22,879 such an important point about perspective, and especially now, especially when we're dealing 169 00:13:22,919 --> 00:13:26,919 with alternative facts in the world, I know, but you have to if 170 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,080 we're going to talk about truth, we have to talk about a lot of 171 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,960 people have a lot of alternative facts, and they run the gamut, and 172 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:39,759 I think that it's hard to nail them down. It's hard to nail down 173 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:45,120 sometimes in writing. When you're writing memoir, what how you line up against 174 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,600 it? And you better be careful when you're writing and you're writing true crime, 175 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:54,200 you better be careful. Rather than alternative fact, it's alternative memory, 176 00:13:54,759 --> 00:13:58,799 okay, yeah, yeah, The fact is the fact. You know, 177 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:03,799 I'm talking about the world, world and alternative perspective. Yeah, and in 178 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,879 that case, an absolutely alternative perspective. They tend to overlap though, right. 179 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,879 There tends to be some threat of truth in each one. And if 180 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:16,519 you can find that in the place where they overlap those memories, then you 181 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:18,919 can enter the story. And that's how we did it. What are some 182 00:14:20,039 --> 00:14:26,240 of the issues with truth as part of the sewer of misinformation that you are 183 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,559 familiar with, specifically in the Tony Costa case, which of course is the 184 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,480 basis for the Babysitter. For anybody who hasn't read it yet, and if 185 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,600 you haven't, I don't know why you haven't go run. I think I 186 00:14:37,639 --> 00:14:43,360 think there are so many examples in this case, but one of the examples 187 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:46,799 is, so, what is the name of the show? I'm sorry, 188 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:52,000 but it's escaping me American horror Story? Is the name of the shop? 189 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:58,480 I think it was. Season ten was supposedly based on the Tony Costa case. 190 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:03,200 Ryan Murphy has a house in Provincetown and it was shot in Provincetown, 191 00:15:03,399 --> 00:15:07,480 And the premise of season ten was that the main character was a vampire, 192 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:13,799 and all the press on Tony Costa at the time of the case called him 193 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,879 the cape Cod vampire. Absolutely untrue, complete and utter rubbish. And Jen, 194 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:22,000 you want to you were the one that discovered this. Yeah, that 195 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:28,360 started with the press conference with the district attorney from the county telling people bodies 196 00:15:28,399 --> 00:15:35,440 have been found and that there were evidence on the corpses of having been chewed 197 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:39,559 and not just the corpses but the organs too. Remember what happened. What 198 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:48,639 we realized was this man didn't know the difference between incisor wounds and incision wounds 199 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:56,279 from miised wounds and incised wounds of the night, and incisor wounds are made 200 00:15:56,279 --> 00:16:02,200 with teeth, So this district attorney didn't know the difference, so he thought 201 00:16:02,279 --> 00:16:07,919 an incised wound had been made by teeth marks, and that you can imagine 202 00:16:07,639 --> 00:16:12,480 the guys and the reporters in the room were just, oh my god, 203 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,480 we not only have a killer, we have a man who choose the body 204 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:22,480 parts. And that went viral and viral for nineteen sixty nine, but it 205 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:26,960 went viral and twenty twenty it still viral. Yeah, and it persisted. 206 00:16:27,879 --> 00:16:33,720 Yeah, there were just Asliza said, there were so many. The three 207 00:16:33,759 --> 00:16:37,759 women that we discovered that he did not kill that are still in the books 208 00:16:37,799 --> 00:16:41,559 as three of Tony's victims, although the bodies were never seen, women were 209 00:16:41,559 --> 00:16:48,720 never seen alive again. And yeah, there's just a list of inaccuracies that 210 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:53,440 people didn't dig any further or didn't have the resources or the knowledge or the 211 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,600 impetus to say, I wonder if that's true'll look it up. So it 212 00:16:57,639 --> 00:17:03,440 became part of the history and remains of the serial killer. Yeah, so 213 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:08,119 we touched already on the fact that this isn't just an issue that is happening 214 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,759 now, like it's been around since Penny Dreadfalls. Early broadsheets, and it 215 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:18,480 perpetuated with Truman Capote. But why is it that we are Why do you 216 00:17:18,519 --> 00:17:23,200 think that we're starting to see more focus on truth in true crime like now 217 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:26,759 today? What is the impetus for this? Do you think? I think 218 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:33,240 you and we are focusing on truth in true crime. But I don't think 219 00:17:33,279 --> 00:17:37,359 the world at larges. I think they're just swallowing whatever they're given. And 220 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,000 the more as I said, the more salacious, the more sensational, they're 221 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:45,440 all over it. So I think it's just those of us that care about 222 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,160 the truth and lies, and I in particular about the truth in this story 223 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,640 that are raising red flies, going wait a minute, that's just not the 224 00:17:53,680 --> 00:18:00,000 way it happened, and for you, and I'm thinking typically of a man 225 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:06,920 who's written another book or creating a story out of hull cloth, just creating 226 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,599 a narrative that has sold your book and that now has sold your film. 227 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:18,319 It's just whoa, it's funny how lies and I now feel this personal relationship 228 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,119 with, if not protection of Tony Costa because the story is going to change 229 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:29,720 before our eyes, a story that we in particular Liza research to the I'm 230 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,880 sorry for the pun to the death and to have somebody come in and say, 231 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,119 Okay, I'll take these parts of it, the vampire part and the 232 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:44,279 drugs and the hippies and the sixties genre of pe tone and all that, 233 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,400 and I'm gonna juice it up. I'm gonna juice it up with some very 234 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,319 famous names and just I'm going to drive that train right to the bank. 235 00:18:53,359 --> 00:19:00,839 There's something else going on as well, which we've actively been participating in discussions, 236 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:07,839 which is four contemporary cases. Family members like myself as the brother of 237 00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:11,759 a murder victim, and a number of other people, some of whom we 238 00:19:11,799 --> 00:19:19,400 regard as our allies and friends, are very disturbed by the coverage that these 239 00:19:19,599 --> 00:19:25,559 cases have received because they feel that not only are the stories not adhering to 240 00:19:25,599 --> 00:19:33,200 the truth, but they're very much veering off into disrespectful and sensationalized aspects of 241 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,480 the story that may or may not be based on reality. That there's just 242 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,839 people throwing in all kinds of crap. And you see it even in new 243 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:47,240 murder cases that have happened recently, this Idaho four case, what the four 244 00:19:47,319 --> 00:19:52,640 college students being killed. We've just seen someone indicted in that case, and 245 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:59,960 yet the sensational aspect of that case and the embellishment. It's already starting about 246 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,799 money. Yeah, it's about money, and it's about readership and clique send 247 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:11,640 viewership and just advertising driving audiences. But no one seems to be particularly concerned 248 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,759 that some of this coverage could be very hurtful to the families of the victims, 249 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:22,960 and that victims are being treated in a very disrespectful way. That's a 250 00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:29,119 responsibility of the writer who's writing about it. We had this issue, obviously, 251 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,680 with the cost of book and the victims and all we could do. 252 00:20:33,319 --> 00:20:37,799 We went to great lengths to talk to the family, to interview the family, 253 00:20:37,839 --> 00:20:41,480 to get the family perspective, and not just the family perspective of Tony, 254 00:20:41,759 --> 00:20:45,680 but of the victims. A lot of them are, at least we 255 00:20:45,839 --> 00:20:52,480 cases this old are deceased, and those who are not deceased, I can 256 00:20:52,519 --> 00:20:55,119 tell you one in particular, which I don't want to give a name, 257 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,799 but I do want to say, lives were ruined by these murders and by 258 00:21:00,839 --> 00:21:08,000 the heinousness and the horridness of these crimes. Lives were ruined and people I'd 259 00:21:08,039 --> 00:21:11,720 like to use this metaphor of going into my bed and pulling the sheets up 260 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:18,880 over my head. A lot of the victims families in this case did exactly 261 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,200 that, and there are a few. From what I know, there's a 262 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,799 woman now who's actually just dealing with it, who was part of this case 263 00:21:26,839 --> 00:21:32,240 when it happened. But when Jen and I tried to talk to victims families, 264 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,359 we were threatened. They were angry, and you can get it. 265 00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:40,759 The whole town is traumatized. They did not want us writing about this. 266 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:45,319 They did not want us writing about their loved ones. And Tony's family didn't 267 00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:48,599 want us writing about them too. So here's the question, what am I 268 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,640 to do with my truth? So we struggled with that as well. A 269 00:21:52,799 --> 00:21:56,359 lot we talked about it. We went back and forth about it, and 270 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,960 I needed to tell the story that happened to me and to this day. 271 00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:07,319 And Bill, I think this is as somebody who has been a victim or 272 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:12,960 been a victim's family, I think that there's so many aspects to what goes 273 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,400 on here. There are so many peripheral people and again, so many perspectives, 274 00:22:18,599 --> 00:22:22,359 and you do the best you can, but it's it's a tough call. 275 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:26,400 Because I needed to write my book. I needed to it grabbed a 276 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,240 hold of me and wouldn't let me go. Whose truth am I going to 277 00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:32,440 tell? How am I going to go around that? So we tried to 278 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:38,039 be as respectful to the victim's stories without getting any feedback from the families because 279 00:22:38,039 --> 00:22:44,640 they didn't want to cooperate. I imagine you could in these cases the families 280 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,720 have their own truth too, and it's equally as interesting, and it's often 281 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:53,400 incredibly different from what happened to, for instance, me as a kind of 282 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,680 a person on the sidelines. I don't know that that answers your question or 283 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,000 not, but I think it's so complex, and I think that there are 284 00:23:02,079 --> 00:23:04,200 writers out there who don't care, and I think there are writers out there 285 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,519 who do, And there's probably writers in the middle too, who are going 286 00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:11,839 to tell the story no matter what you say, and tell it their way. 287 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,680 So I hope I answered your question. And I would also say that 288 00:23:15,759 --> 00:23:21,680 it's not only on the writer's plate. It's the editor's plate, okay, 289 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:29,240 editor who you know is sending these reporters out and then allowing an underreported, 290 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,440 sloppily reported, cut and pasted report to go on the air and in the 291 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:38,599 newspaper and in the magazine and to answer directly Bill one of your questions, 292 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:45,039 I think the reason is money in that research costs money. Having a reporter 293 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:51,559 on a story on those Idaho murders and only on those Idaho murders is very 294 00:23:51,599 --> 00:23:56,039 expensive, and in a lot of cases, too many cases, the reporter 295 00:23:56,279 --> 00:24:00,200 is just going to go and talk to the same people that everyone else to 296 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,279 talk to, and then read everyone else's story, cut and paste to change 297 00:24:03,319 --> 00:24:07,799 a few words and put it and put it in circulation. So it's a 298 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:15,400 combination of real reportage costing a lot of money that less and less news outlets 299 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,880 are able to pay. A lot of those students coming out of journalism school 300 00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:26,480 are being taught that there's not a lot of money and cutting corners is what 301 00:24:26,839 --> 00:24:30,000 sometimes has to be done to get the story on the air. Then you've 302 00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:36,519 got editors who are being yelled at by shareholders saying, how much did you 303 00:24:36,559 --> 00:24:40,920 spend in that story? Wait a minute, you know that, Why didn't 304 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,079 we just use so and so and lead and go with that. But I 305 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,079 think ultimately just comes down to money. There's less and less money in the 306 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,599 pool to pay people to do the kind of research that is necessary, and 307 00:24:52,720 --> 00:25:00,599 details are expensive and sitting in Moscow, Idaho for month on end to get 308 00:25:00,599 --> 00:25:04,200 to the truth of a story. It's not going to be done, which 309 00:25:04,279 --> 00:25:11,000 is why salacious cells because they can repeat it over and over again. NSG, 310 00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:15,799 you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word 311 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:26,799 from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder. To what extent 312 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:32,839 is the twenty four hour news cycle and the drive for clicks and reporting that 313 00:25:32,839 --> 00:25:37,400 comes with social media. To what extent is that making these issues worse? 314 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,960 I think to a huge extent too, you said, because we've all been 315 00:25:41,039 --> 00:25:47,519 dumbed down by the twitterization of the world communicating in what was it seventeen words 316 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,079 or less in the beginning, Yeah, like hundred forty characters or something, 317 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:53,240 and TikTok's what you've got to do it in five minutes to get to go 318 00:25:53,400 --> 00:26:00,000 viral and our attention span. Look at kids next or neighbors with young kids, 319 00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:03,000 and this is how they this is how they read. And so there's 320 00:26:03,079 --> 00:26:07,000 no more sitting down with a book and mommy and daddy reading to you. 321 00:26:07,599 --> 00:26:11,160 And I shouldn't say that, because of course parents are still doing that, 322 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:18,359 but so much of a child's attention span has been reduced, and now it's 323 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,880 the millennials and then Gen X, and they're just used to the scroll of 324 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,200 life, the scroll. They don't spend ten minutes reading a news article, 325 00:26:29,279 --> 00:26:34,720 scroll and they read the headline. And so editors are telling their reporters like, 326 00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,759 hey, people are going to scroll through this. Give me the league, 327 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:41,200 give it to me in three minutes or less. And then for the 328 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:48,319 long the long format pieces, how many of those of you seen lately? 329 00:26:48,799 --> 00:26:52,680 And the other thing too is we need food and we need sleep, but 330 00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:59,559 we don't need twenty four hours of news. We just don't. And it's 331 00:26:59,599 --> 00:27:04,039 like prostitution. They're digging for stories and repeating them over and over again when 332 00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:08,720 something big doesn't happen in the world. And I think that is that's a 333 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,440 problem. It's a huge problem because when you have twenty four hours of news 334 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,079 to fill and three stories, what are you going to do? Oh, 335 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,279 I don't know. You might make something up, or you might embellish. 336 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:25,160 Let's say let's use embellish because you have to. You need content, right, 337 00:27:25,279 --> 00:27:29,240 you go fishing for content. The guard not the Guardian, but the 338 00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:34,400 Sun interviewed me when they for the babysitter and it wasn't a salacious enough story 339 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,319 for the Sun, so they didn't run it. Really, yes, how 340 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:45,799 the fact that your babysitter was a serial killer. And you know what the 341 00:27:45,839 --> 00:27:51,920 reporter kept saying to me, did you see anything? Did you see anything? 342 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,319 Did you see bodies? Did he try to kill you? Exactly? 343 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,599 And it went on like that and he kept repeating, oh yeah, yeah, 344 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:07,079 and it didn't run. So there you go, classy. Yeah, 345 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,880 oh my gosh, holding up the tradition of the British tabloid, that's for 346 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:18,880 sure. And it's not like I'm going to say, terry. And here's 347 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:25,279 here's the question for the ages. What is the best way to hold true 348 00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:30,079 crime content creators to a higher ethical standard? And I, like I said, 349 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,400 I think like Nobel prize for answering this one, but like, what 350 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:37,279 can we be doing to try to hold people she was a standard of hey 351 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,920 do better? Okay, yes, Liza did not see bodies and she did 352 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,200 not merely get killed by a serial killer, but that doesn't mean that her 353 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,160 story isn't worth listening to. How can we get that across to people and 354 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,240 make it meaningful? I think the only way is to ignore the stories that 355 00:28:52,319 --> 00:28:59,559 are full of salacious content and stretch truth or outright mistruth. That's the only 356 00:28:59,559 --> 00:29:03,599 way, you guys, and for editors to not run it. But again, 357 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,920 as Liza said, and as you alluded to, Kristen, when you 358 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,799 go twenty four to seven to cover to fill, but you're going to be 359 00:29:11,839 --> 00:29:15,759 like, okay, we report like radio news does report the same story in 360 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:19,720 the top of the hour. Either they're going to do that, or they're 361 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,640 going to cut back, or in a combination of both, they're not going 362 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:29,160 to care. So it's got to come down to the people in charge of 363 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,640 the button to either not run it or not listen to it. Yeah, 364 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,519 and I think I'm not the only one that feels that way about the twenty 365 00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:40,599 four hour news cycle. Most of us are starting to feel that way. 366 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,240 Jen feels that way. It's our behavior that's driving it. So if we 367 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,079 stop doing what we do we're doing, if we stop clicking on those links 368 00:29:51,119 --> 00:29:56,319 that come up in our feed about insane stuff over and over again, if 369 00:29:56,359 --> 00:30:03,079 we stop doing business as usual internet providers, we can start to affect things. 370 00:30:03,119 --> 00:30:06,319 Because we're not the only ones that feel this way. There's a whole 371 00:30:06,359 --> 00:30:10,000 group of people out there who feel the same way we do. How's that 372 00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:15,279 for a Nobel Peace Prize? I love it. I was reading an article 373 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:21,880 about Cheeter Rivera not doing Broadway anymore because the audience is on their goddamn phones. 374 00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:26,960 And there she is on stage singing and somebody's on their phone talking. 375 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:33,240 She has stopped Broadway shows to say put your phone away or leave, and 376 00:30:33,279 --> 00:30:37,880 the person gets belligerent. So the article is actually really well written and an 377 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:44,160 incredibly horrible, shocking insight into what it's like to go to a Broadway show 378 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:48,720 for three hundred dollars a ticket. I think it's so widespread that I'm not 379 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:55,119 sure. But this point, we're so far down that road that to really 380 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,839 change behavior in any real way, I don't know. I don't know how 381 00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:02,319 you do it. I'm sorry it's not a Nobel answer, but I don't 382 00:31:02,359 --> 00:31:04,160 think you can. I don't think you can. I think the only person 383 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,920 you can change behavior is you. That's it. They interviewed Sean Hayes recently. 384 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:15,920 He's doing that Broadway show something about Oscar, and he broke with somebody 385 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,079 was asking about the audience and he said, and by the way, people 386 00:31:18,119 --> 00:31:22,559 in the first five rows with your phones. We can hear you because it's 387 00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:27,519 pretty prevalent out there. I can't imagine. I can't imagine being in what 388 00:31:27,599 --> 00:31:30,079 I would do? What I would do, Oh, I know what you 389 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:36,440 in a Broadway show in my three hundred four hundred dollars seat with some Yahoo 390 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,960 talking to the nanny behind me, I don't know what I do. I'd 391 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,920 probably be the one to end up being thrown out because it would, no 392 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,839 doubt, and so outraged for the performers who are They're oh my god, 393 00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:53,319 I can't imagine anything more, and I'm going off and I feel like I'm 394 00:31:53,319 --> 00:32:00,680 shouting. But if you turned and said, get off the damn phone to 395 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:06,680 by your own business, bitch, and they'd be telling you you're disruptive, 396 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,599 that's right, by calling them out for their bad behavior. Yeah, it's 397 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,039 this pervasive sense of entitlement. I think it really is running through in not 398 00:32:17,119 --> 00:32:22,000 a fantastic way. And with entitlement, the truth matters less and less because 399 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,680 it's all about your ego and you get lost in it. And that entitlement 400 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,880 gets louder and louder with every new Can you imagine now with people with their 401 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,000 their virtual things? The VR goggles. Yeah, I imagine sitting next to 402 00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:44,839 them on the airplane as they're shadow boxing somebody and oh, I hate it's 403 00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:51,720 awful. People around their cell phones and the next thing is going to be 404 00:32:51,759 --> 00:32:54,400 these things and they're did you guys? It's probably not going to be part 405 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,359 of the show. But I have to ask you because I'll forget if I 406 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,759 don't. Did you ever see the movie Brainstorm with Natalie Wood And yeah, 407 00:33:01,839 --> 00:33:06,319 yeah, yeah, that was everyone they're walking, but it was yeah, 408 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,599 you're walking now. It was Christopher Walking forty something years ago, and it 409 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:15,119 was all about Ai, how he was creative, was like an orgasm machine, 410 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:20,119 and so they would have virtual experiences by wearing the goggles. That's the 411 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,799 movie she was making right before she died. I think it was, Yeah, 412 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:25,599 it was Christopher walking because yeah, it was because he was on the 413 00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:29,640 boat. Yeah, he was on the boat right. Yeah. I keep 414 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,960 thinking about that with because the machine that they put on their head looked just 415 00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:39,400 like a Baculus rift where Apple just for thirty five hundred dollars just released Eliza. 416 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:45,880 You were just here recently Inhampton Roads about a new and interesting project you 417 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:52,240 were working on, and it is about the contraband decision. Can you explain 418 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,079 to people who may not be familiar with it, what is the contraband decision? 419 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,799 And where was it made? And what are you doing and hanging around 420 00:33:59,839 --> 00:34:05,480 here with disreputable folks like me? I'd be happy to actually most people, 421 00:34:05,559 --> 00:34:07,960 even in Hampton Roads. I was there for a week and I had a 422 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:13,719 wonderful time, and shout out to the baker's wife in Phoebus. I recommend 423 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,920 it to everyone. But I was talking to a waiter there. Talk to 424 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:22,760 talk wherever I go, and no one knows the story. And there's a 425 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:28,519 reason no one knows the story. So the contrabands are began at Fort Monroe 426 00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:30,840 in eighteen sixty one, at the beginning of the Civil War. And they 427 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:37,199 began when three enslaved men escaped from a Confederate battery that they were building where 428 00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:42,400 there had just been a skirmish, a minor skirmish over at Sewell's Point. 429 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,360 Escaped. There's some debate about how they got to Fort Monroe, but all 430 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:53,440 accounts say that they climbed through the thicket with their white flag and asked for 431 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,960 asylum. And they were the first three to do it, and they were 432 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:02,920 the first three who were granted asylum. And what happened when they did is 433 00:35:04,039 --> 00:35:09,400 that the spirit they caught the spiritual telegraph of the enslaved people and were traveled 434 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:15,519 really fast. And so thousands of enslaved people in the dark of night headed 435 00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:21,480 for Fort Monroe and it became known as the Freedom Fortress. But what is 436 00:35:21,519 --> 00:35:27,000 so significant about it is that they created the community of Hampton. All the 437 00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:30,920 white people left, They abandoned their property, they abandoned their houses, They 438 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,280 took their wives and their children, and they left and went to higher ground. 439 00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:37,440 And then they burned their city or their town. They burned that. 440 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:43,719 The Confederates burned the town of Hampton. Ten enslaved people are at Fort Monroe. 441 00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:46,800 They come out of Fort Monroe because there's no place to put them, 442 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:52,039 and they start to rebuild the community, and it becomes known as the Grand 443 00:35:52,039 --> 00:35:58,480 Contraband Camp or slab Town right there in Hampton. It's absolutely there's no history 444 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,480 on it. It's not told. And there were two hundred and fifty Contramand 445 00:36:02,519 --> 00:36:10,159 camps in the United States refugee camps housing eight hundred thousand formally enslaved people during 446 00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:15,519 the Civil War, eight hundred thousand and no one talks about it. Yeah, 447 00:36:15,559 --> 00:36:17,559 I didn't know about it until you started telling me about it exactly. 448 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,079 Yeah. I think it's kind of a significant story and I think it needs 449 00:36:22,079 --> 00:36:25,480 to be told and it needs to be brought up as the other half of 450 00:36:25,519 --> 00:36:30,519 what we know as American history. This is the very seat of African history 451 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:37,559 in this country. It gives us so much to hear the story and hear 452 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:42,039 the story of these people. And so what we're doing is that we're talking 453 00:36:42,079 --> 00:36:45,800 to the descendants of the contraband in Hampton because a lot of them are still 454 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:51,320 there and they have held onto this oral history because it didn't get written down 455 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:57,000 anywhere. And again, it's really moving to hear their stories in history that 456 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,840 passed down and here we go again, this is African American history that has 457 00:37:02,039 --> 00:37:09,039 not been told except within the oral tradition of the African American community. So, 458 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,320 for example, I've never heard about this either, and I'm actually interested 459 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,840 in the Civil War. The way I heard about it was is that my 460 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,760 husband's third great grandfather was the commanding officer at Fort Monroe, and he was 461 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,880 also a Massachusetts lawyer, and he was the one that said, you know 462 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,559 what, he was there when the three men came in and he said, 463 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:36,599 Virginia had just seceded from the Union. They ratified their vote the day before, 464 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,039 and so he, being an attorney, said, I don't have to 465 00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:45,360 return these guys because Virginia is no longer able to take advantage of the laws 466 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,400 of the United States. That's right, because they're no longer covered under United 467 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,880 States law exactly. That's how he came to call them contraband of war, 468 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:02,480 so that he could keep them and basically use them for They did all kinds 469 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,960 of things. They wanted to enlist. A lot of them were informants. 470 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,239 They had a lot of intelligence what was going on in the local area, 471 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:16,119 so that's unknown. They were strong people to help build batteries. There were 472 00:38:16,159 --> 00:38:21,639 all kinds of ways in which they aided the Union Army, and still the 473 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,800 Union Army wouldn't let them enlist. So when you say that, it's a 474 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,960 piece of it. That's why we don't know it. So many African American 475 00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:35,360 people didn't see themselves in the history books or even in the conversation. So 476 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,239 they turned they said, I'm going to learn it from my grandfather, I'm 477 00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,199 going to learn from my neighbor I'm going to learn it from my mother, 478 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,440 and so those oral histories are so important to both document There's a pro there 479 00:38:45,519 --> 00:38:51,559 was a program in the thirties called the Federal Writers Project that did document a 480 00:38:51,599 --> 00:38:55,320 lot of these people. But when you're talking about two hundred and fifty refugee 481 00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,760 camps in the United States, imagine, just imagine it. The story hasn't 482 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,239 been told. So what are your plans. You're working on a book. 483 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,039 I'm working on a book right now, but right right at this moment, 484 00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:14,280 I'm working on a documentary with a filmmaker out of Washington, DC who DC 485 00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:17,800 had one of the biggest contraband camps in the country. It grew up off 486 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,760 the Lee Plantation, off Roberty Lee's plantation, right in Ireland, overlooking the 487 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:30,199 government sees the land. The Mary Custis went often to the wherever she went, 488 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,840 and the government took the land and made what was called the Freedman's Village. 489 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,719 You can imagine the kind of conditions they lived in, but at least 490 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,760 there was a place for them to be, and DC was at the center 491 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:45,079 of it. I could go on and on. It is crazy, and 492 00:39:45,639 --> 00:39:47,360 I have lived here almost my entire life. And I've never heard this, 493 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:52,719 so that's the point. No one knows the story. This is very interesting. 494 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,280 And Jen, how about you in terms of projects, what are you 495 00:39:54,320 --> 00:40:02,119 working on? My quick answer is survival. We had a family tragedy last 496 00:40:02,199 --> 00:40:07,679 year, a year ago, and yeah, so I'm just getting back to 497 00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:10,760 writing. Actually, I just wrote my first piece in a year because I 498 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,719 have just been so sidelined by trauma. Yeah, I'm getting back to writing. 499 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:21,639 I'm actually turning the tragedy into a memoir called Sisters, a love Story. 500 00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:24,400 And so we'll see. It's been a hell of a year and just 501 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,400 beginning to come out. As Bill, you probably understand this shared coming out 502 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,599 the other side of a horrific tragedy. We're so sorry to hear that chime. 503 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,480 Thank you. Well, hopefully some good things will come out of it 504 00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:40,599 in terms of maybe you being able to turn your creative juices on again and 505 00:40:42,679 --> 00:40:45,920 move forward and telling the story. But it sounds like they're very challenging. 506 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,760 No, it's yeah, it's in fact, as I start to write it, 507 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,239 it's I'm realizing just how challenging it is to relive it, to relive 508 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,039 it, and to relive it in the depth that you need to as a 509 00:40:58,079 --> 00:41:01,920 memoirist, as Lyson knows all too well. It's just as I have said 510 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:07,639 to my clients who i've ghost written for, memoir writing is the bravest thing 511 00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:09,639 you're ever going to do. And I don't want to work with you if 512 00:41:09,679 --> 00:41:15,000 you're if you don't know that, if you're not aware of that and not 513 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:22,039 willing to absolutely unzip yourself for the world to see, because nobody wants to 514 00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:27,199 read a memoir by Pollyanna. It's daunting, but it's also it feels so 515 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:34,480 good to finally have the bandwidth to get back to writing and to a creative 516 00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:39,960 process because I've not had an ounce to spare for creativity. So getting back, 517 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,679 thank you for asking, and stay tuned. It's a relief when you 518 00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,320 have your words back finally, like when you return to it from a long 519 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,039 time. It's, oh, this is what I missed, this is what 520 00:41:52,119 --> 00:41:54,639 I love. Yeah right, I'm glad you're getting them back. That's really 521 00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:59,360 good. And this is in fact, it was just the first piece of 522 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,119 writing that I've done in a year. A friend asked me to write the 523 00:42:01,159 --> 00:42:07,920 introduction to an upcoming coffee table book. In writing the intro, I said 524 00:42:07,039 --> 00:42:12,320 the happiest people. The luckiest people are those who know what they're born to 525 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,039 do and love doing it. It's true of myself and Jed. Not have 526 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:22,239 that for a year has been really a toob of all the challenges, really 527 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,599 tough, and to feel it coming back with flowers in the garden after winter 528 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:32,039 start to oh there's the sun. Oh I remember this. Yeah, Yeah, 529 00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:37,880 it's an amazing feeling. That analogy is a very strong one well as 530 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,639 it. Jen. Thank you so much for joining us to talk a little 531 00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:45,639 bit about the sticky problem of truth and true crime and some of the repercussions 532 00:42:45,679 --> 00:42:50,920 for that. And we do encourage everybody to pick up The Babysitter if you 533 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,360 have not already done so. It is a magnificent book. And we thank 534 00:42:53,480 --> 00:43:00,079 our two best selling author friends for joining us again today. We love of 535 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:04,760 having you and we loved your work. Thank you both so much. It's 536 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,119 been great to come back. Yeah, we've been so happy to come back. 537 00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:09,559 Really, it's a pleasure to talk to you, guys, and it's 538 00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:16,239 always great to get together with my Jenny. So even if it's on zoom, 539 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,440 all right, guys' about to get a tornado coming through Salt Lake so 540 00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,679 I gotta go okay, all right, be safe. That is going to 541 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,760 do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for 542 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:42,679 listening and we'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of 543 00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:49,199 Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin 544 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,159 Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by 545 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:59,960 Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 546 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,239 You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also 547 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:07,800 follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you 548 00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:13,559 can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for 549 00:44:13,679 --> 00:44:15,039 listening to mind Over Murder.