1 00:00:17,359 --> 00:00:21,320 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emilijiashinsky, culture 2 00:00:21,359 --> 00:00:24,160 editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show at 3 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,000 radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at FDR LST. 4 00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:32,520 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts as well. If you're keeping 5 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,560 track at home. I just realized I did it again. Follow us on 6 00:00:36,039 --> 00:00:41,000 x at FDR LST, not Twitter. I'm joined today by Chris Brunette. 7 00:00:41,039 --> 00:00:45,000 He's a contributing editor over at The American Conservative. He rates on Substack at 8 00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:50,000 Carlstack dot substack dot com. That's Carl with K. We taped this on 9 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,640 December twenty first, just as in New York Times came out with an article 10 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,479 actually following up on some of the reporting that Chris Brunette did with Chris Rufo 11 00:00:59,479 --> 00:01:03,719 on clotting Gay and plagiarism. They really kicked this whole thing off by starting 12 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,760 to look into examples of Claudine Gay, the president of Harvard in the past, 13 00:01:10,359 --> 00:01:15,280 having plagiarize other people's work. So what I talk about with Chris on 14 00:01:15,359 --> 00:01:21,359 today's episode, and I'm introducing it here just to sort of give a preview 15 00:01:21,439 --> 00:01:29,519 of what's to come is his work exposing gay, the various examples of plagiarism 16 00:01:29,599 --> 00:01:34,680 that we now have, his plans to keep digging into this in academia in 17 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,959 the future. It's all really, really interesting, and I think it does 18 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:47,840 speak to a lot of deeper problems in higher education and this sort of really 19 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:53,760 uncomfortable reality that we are sending so many of our best and brightest through this 20 00:01:53,879 --> 00:02:00,719 four year filter that may never leave them, especially in IVY League. But 21 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,840 it's yea, I shouldn't even say especially in the IVY League. It's obviously 22 00:02:02,879 --> 00:02:09,639 exists in state schools, in the deepest red of Red States. It's basically 23 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:15,439 everywhere. And before long, you know, people look around in twenty twenty, 24 00:02:15,479 --> 00:02:17,800 people look around now after October seventh, and oh, my goodness, 25 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,159 what has happened to higher education? And we've had this debate, you know, 26 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:23,840 a couple of times on the show since October seventh. We've talked about 27 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:29,159 it felt like every day in twenty twenty because it was so important and pressing. 28 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,960 But the reality is this is now so deeply embedded in our society and 29 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:38,759 in our culture. And I think the clotting gay example really speaks to that 30 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:46,280 because this woman is the head of the most prestigious American institution, American academic 31 00:02:46,319 --> 00:02:51,680 institution, but actually perhaps the most prestigious academic institution in all the world that 32 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:54,520 is here in the United States. I mean, it's just an incredible embarrassment. 33 00:02:54,919 --> 00:03:00,199 It's obviously unfair to students at Harvard and really around the country. But 34 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:05,560 I'm eager to bring you this interview with Chris Brunette, who worked with Chris 35 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,560 Rufo to kind of break this story open, and it's continuing to look into 36 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,520 all of this. So I hope everyone is having a wonderful holiday week. 37 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,919 There is no better week than the week between Christmas at New Year's and I 38 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,080 hope you're all enjoying it, and I hope you enjoy this interview with Chris 39 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:25,240 Brunette. Chris, Welcome to Federalist Radio Hour. Hey, I'm very glad 40 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:30,000 to be here. This is my second podcast ever. Well, the first 41 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:34,280 one was that it was Radio Hour like a few weeks ago. But now 42 00:03:34,319 --> 00:03:37,520 that we've broken to such a big story like, it would be crazy not 43 00:03:39,199 --> 00:03:45,199 podcast. Yeah, podcast are the best way to go through some of those 44 00:03:45,199 --> 00:03:46,759 big stories. I feel like, because you get the time and space to 45 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:52,479 kind of talk through them. Speaking of which you are a contributing editor over 46 00:03:52,479 --> 00:03:59,240 at The American Conservative, You're not American, You're Canadian, which is a 47 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:06,120 differentes as far as I'm concerned, right, well, I'm I try not 48 00:04:06,159 --> 00:04:11,879 to like trick the listeners or my readers, Like I'm pretty open about how 49 00:04:11,919 --> 00:04:15,919 I'm Canadian I am, and also I write about So I've written six or 50 00:04:15,919 --> 00:04:18,560 seven stories for them, and like three three have been about Canada and three 51 00:04:18,639 --> 00:04:23,279 have been about Europe. So I'm not like writing about like how American I 52 00:04:23,319 --> 00:04:30,399 am. But yeah, I am Canadian, and I am conservative for a 53 00:04:30,399 --> 00:04:33,120 Canadian, like I would call myself this interest, but in Canada, I'm 54 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:38,560 like far right extremes, and so I don't really fit in there. I 55 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,959 left the country. I fled after COVID, Like I was already not feeling 56 00:04:44,079 --> 00:04:46,279 like I fit in in Canada, but like during COVID, I've been got 57 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:50,000 so crazy that I am. I left the country and I don't plan on 58 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:54,519 going back. And one of the big reasons I left, just so I'm 59 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:59,199 going to end on this is in Canada, if you're unvaccinated, which I 60 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,560 am, you can give an organ donation, but you cannot receive an organ 61 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,399 donation, and so that really really pumps me. And then I like that 62 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,560 they won't let me have an organ purely out of spite, not that I 63 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,120 need an organ, but like if I did need an organ, they wouldn't 64 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,519 let me have it. M Yeah, I mean that's I didn't know that 65 00:05:17,519 --> 00:05:21,399 that was the long Canada. That's outrageous, but it gives you, I 66 00:05:21,439 --> 00:05:26,000 guess, I think, helpful perspective when you're writing about some of these things 67 00:05:26,439 --> 00:05:30,120 you just mentioned breaking a big story, Could you start just by telling us 68 00:05:30,199 --> 00:05:36,480 a little bit about how that came to be and we'll go through everything kind 69 00:05:36,519 --> 00:05:41,519 of one by one by one, or one through five as it is. 70 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,519 But if you could tell us just a little bit about what you wrote, 71 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,399 and then we'll walk through each kind of scandal in and of itself. Sure. 72 00:05:50,439 --> 00:05:55,360 Well, I've been investigating Clouting Gay, the president of Harbers for two 73 00:05:55,439 --> 00:05:59,399 years. My first job in media actually was at the Daily Caller. And 74 00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:01,600 I quit my job at the Daily call It because they wouldn't let me publish 75 00:06:01,639 --> 00:06:08,800 stories about Claudine Gay or about Harvard and because it was too much legal risk, 76 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,839 right, So I quit and did it on my own substack, and 77 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,560 for two years I was like investigating cluding gay and I wasn't really getting any 78 00:06:15,639 --> 00:06:20,279 traction, Like my stories did okay, but like my substack wasn't growing that 79 00:06:20,399 --> 00:06:25,480 quickly, right, And then she became president of Herbert. She was just 80 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:28,959 the dean, but now she's president and that kind of is what flew up 81 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,920 all the stories in her face. And the most recent one was two weeks 82 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,959 ago. I published it with Chris Ruffo on his substack and City Journal, 83 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:42,000 and we found, courtesy of an anonymous tip, lots of my stories come 84 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:49,800 from NONUS emails. Right. We found plagiarism in her nineteen ninety seven doctoral 85 00:06:49,879 --> 00:06:57,079 thesis. We found about twenty examples of like verbatim plagiarism, so just like 86 00:06:57,399 --> 00:07:01,079 straight up copy and pasting, and also Moses plagarism, which is like patchwork 87 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:09,519 plagiarism. And our examples were pretty bad, but they weren't like the worst 88 00:07:09,639 --> 00:07:12,560 plagiarism in the world. It wasn't like the end of the world for her. 89 00:07:14,279 --> 00:07:15,839 But we got really lucky in that, Like once we got the ball 90 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:24,480 rolling with our plagiarism story, the Washington Free Bacon posted their own plagiarism story 91 00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:29,680 the New York Post. Yeah, New York Posts had a big one too, 92 00:07:29,839 --> 00:07:32,560 with like really really bad examples, and they had professors coming forward, 93 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,519 and the professors were saying like, hey, like this happened to me. 94 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,279 This is plagiarism, This is really bad. And they added a lot of 95 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:45,600 gravita to the story with us and then the Washington Free Bacon posted a fourth 96 00:07:45,639 --> 00:07:51,959 one. And then now that four or five stories of the plagism have come 97 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,639 out, each with like twenty examples in each, so there's like sixty seventy 98 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,240 examples. Now now it's like really really blowing up. And just yesterday, 99 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:07,000 like the New York Times covered in the CNN, it was the leading story 100 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,519 on CNN Nightly News, Like it's really the left wing media is picking it 101 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,199 up now finally after it was just like the right wing media for a couple 102 00:08:15,199 --> 00:08:18,160 of weeks and who is like, maybe we just back up for a second, 103 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:22,639 because you have this background where you actually were looking into clouding gay before 104 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,160 a lot of people cared about Clyding gay, even though she also was part 105 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,839 of the as far as I understand, was part of the kind of inner 106 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,519 Harvard movement to get rid of Roland Fryar for being sort of a heterodox outside 107 00:08:33,519 --> 00:08:39,720 of the liberal bubble on crime statistics and things of that sort. Who is 108 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:48,000 she and why did you initially really want to start digging into her? So 109 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,480 two years ago I received an anonymous tip or anonymous document from that turned out 110 00:08:52,519 --> 00:08:58,519 to be an internal Harvard investigation that I published on my substock and it was 111 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:05,720 another professor in the political science department who committed data paper data fabrication, and 112 00:09:05,799 --> 00:09:09,240 so my original target was not Claude Gay, it was this guy. But 113 00:09:09,279 --> 00:09:11,840 then it turns out she's the guy. She's the dean who covered up his 114 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:16,759 data fabrication, and so like that turned me on to her, and then 115 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:20,080 I wrote a bunch of particles about her and what I discovered it. So 116 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:26,480 she's a political scientist, first of all. She began her career as an 117 00:09:26,519 --> 00:09:33,960 assistant professor at Stanford, and she was granted tenure at Stanford, and it 118 00:09:35,039 --> 00:09:39,080 was probably the weakest tenure case Stanford as ever seen. She when she was 119 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,559 granted tenure at Stanford, she only had four published papers and they were all 120 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:52,320 about critical race theory. Like that's her pet theory, is a racial threat 121 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,600 theory. It was like her big bread and butter, which is the theory 122 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:01,240 that white people are afraid of black people, which causes white people to vote 123 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:07,720 in certain ways. And then after ten year at Stanford, she got an 124 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:11,399 offer at Harvard, so she went to Harvard, and there she only published 125 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,639 a couple more papers, like she a credit to her almost as soon as 126 00:10:16,639 --> 00:10:20,559 she went tenure, like she did barely just enough her tenure. Then no 127 00:10:20,639 --> 00:10:24,639 more, she stopped publishing papers. Once she went to Harvard, she basically 128 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:31,279 became an administrator. She became the dean of something, and then the dean 129 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:39,440 of the Faculty of Arts and Science. And then last year she was promoted 130 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,159 to be president of the university. And it came out recently that she was 131 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:46,399 promoted. And first of all, it was the shortest residential search in the 132 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,600 last eighty years, so like they didn't do a full search, they just 133 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:58,879 like picked her basically. And Bill Ackman revealed that the search committee explicitly picked 134 00:10:58,919 --> 00:11:03,879 her because she was a black woman, like that was the main criteria. 135 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,240 And it kind of makes sense, like that's what everyone assumes, right, 136 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,159 and because she doesn't have the qualifications on paper, but she is the qualifications 137 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:20,799 based on skin color. Yeah, that seems to be a theme of criticisms 138 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:28,039 of her career, and actually that's a good transition point into what you and 139 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:33,399 others have found. Especially one of the things I liked about your guys' initial 140 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:39,639 report is that you included comments from people who could evaluate, you know, 141 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:43,480 how severe the case was and all of that. So if you could just 142 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:50,000 walk us through the evidence that the president of Harvard, this celebrated scholar, 143 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,519 is a serial plagiarist, that would be great. Chris, all right, 144 00:11:54,559 --> 00:12:01,200 well, so the strongest evidence is that she has already submitted corrections to six 145 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,440 different journals and like, so she's corrected her work, but at the same 146 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:13,120 time says she's done nothing wrong. And if you go and look at all 147 00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:15,960 the examples of plagiarism, which, by the way, the New York Times 148 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,480 this morning posted an article where they walk through examples of plagiarism and like they 149 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:26,039 go through the worst examples and show them side by side. So that would 150 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:31,919 really do more justice than me just like talking about the parandims. Yeah, 151 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:35,279 that that article, And of course people in the article point their fingers at 152 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,919 conservatives for seizing on the issue. But yes, it's amazing that the New 153 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,000 York Times even you know, and Jake Tapper, as you mentioned, led 154 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:46,840 his story off or let his show off with it just yesterday. They're definitely 155 00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:52,919 interested, right. The funniest example of platiarism, which has gone the most 156 00:12:54,039 --> 00:13:00,320 viral is she plagiarized the thank you notes in one of her papers, so 157 00:13:00,519 --> 00:13:05,879 like, I forget the exact word, but her thank you notes says like, 158 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,720 I'm tremendously grateful for you for pushing me to work harder, and I 159 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:16,000 have done it without your wonderful help. And then it was taken word from 160 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:24,039 word for word from another political scientist thank you note. And so she's either 161 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:31,240 lazy or I guess back in nineteen ninety seven, the standards were a lot 162 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:37,960 lower. So what I'm expecting to find actually is I'm working with an organization 163 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:41,919 which I don't think I can announce it now, but I'm working with them 164 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:50,440 to gather a database of all the papers of every university president and provosts and 165 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,480 dean and big shot. And we're putting them all in a database. And 166 00:13:54,519 --> 00:14:01,840 then we're I'm working with the university professor who knows about and we're going to 167 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:05,000 check them all for plagiarism. Using AI. It's just a matter of doing 168 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,519 it, Like that's a very time consuming project. But I'm and it might 169 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,120 not be successful, Like who knows, maybe there's no more plagiarists in the 170 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,759 world, but we're expecting it to be fruitful. Yeah. Actually, one 171 00:14:18,759 --> 00:14:22,320 of the big questions I've heard so much, and it's actually a really interesting 172 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:28,080 one about Claudine Gay is how does Harvard hire someone that you know? As 173 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,919 soon as she's in the middle of a controversy, it becomes very clear there 174 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:35,919 are all of these examples of plagiarism. How do how does this person climb 175 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,399 the ladders of higher education? Not just you know, in America, but 176 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:45,840 in the world. Harvard is probably the most prestigious academic institution in the world, 177 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,360 and this woman sits at the head of it. And it was so 178 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:52,080 easy to kind of topple this house of cards or to figure out that there 179 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,519 was a lot of plagiarism in her background. And one of the things I 180 00:14:54,519 --> 00:15:00,399 think is interesting about that Chris is back in the day, so if you 181 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,320 plagiarized, it was a lot harder to check, and you could move up 182 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:09,639 your career without anticipating that one day the house of cards would be brought down 183 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:15,720 with a pretty easy, you know, couple hours plugging your work into a 184 00:15:15,759 --> 00:15:18,919 plagiarism checker, maybe not even a couple of hours you're putting it into AI. 185 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:26,279 Nobody anticipated they probably should have, but nobody anticipated decades ago that they 186 00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:28,960 would be so easily found out. And I bet that a whole lot of 187 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:35,840 people in academia is just quaking in their boots this holiday season. Right, 188 00:15:35,879 --> 00:15:39,919 Well, Claude and Gay was born in the wrong generation. If she were 189 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,600 a Zoomer, she would have chat EVT and like her whole career would be 190 00:15:43,639 --> 00:15:48,240 so much easier. And all those questions you asked, actually the people who 191 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,360 want to find out the answer to them about how she could have risen in 192 00:15:52,440 --> 00:16:00,200 Harvard is the United States Congress. So just yesterday the Congress announced a probe 193 00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:08,200 specifically into her plagiarism. So before they were investigating her anti Semitic remarks or 194 00:16:08,519 --> 00:16:15,480 her Botch testimony basically, and now they're investigating her plagiarism. So she has 195 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:22,159 until December twenty nine to produce all of the internal Harvard documents about how they 196 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:30,240 investigated I'm using air quotes for investigated her plagiarism. Because every time she's been 197 00:16:30,279 --> 00:16:37,200 accused of plagiarism, Harvard comes out and stands behind her unanimously, and their 198 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:42,159 investigation always takes one day. And when you run these types of investigations, 199 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:48,639 what other academics say is that they usually take six months to two years, 200 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,960 and Harvard is clearing her unanimously in one day, and each time they clear 201 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:56,240 her more evidence than comes out a few days later. So it's like, 202 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:00,720 I think they kind of regret unanimously any behind her the first time, because 203 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,319 like it's just gotten so much worse since then, and now it's gotten so 204 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:11,640 bad that Congress has given them until yeah, until December twenty nine. So 205 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:18,519 I one good way to judge what are the chances of being her being ousted 206 00:17:18,559 --> 00:17:22,039 from being the university president are prediction markets. And I'm not sure what you're 207 00:17:22,279 --> 00:17:26,200 if your users know what prediction markets are, but I use them all the 208 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,920 time to get an unbiased because I'm obviously biased in the story, right, 209 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,400 Like I'm like rooting against her, and I like to think she's going to 210 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,599 go because my career kind of depends on her going, or it would be 211 00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:42,599 good my career. I was the guy who broke the story that took down 212 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:49,440 the perfect President. If she stays in the job, there's continued fodder for 213 00:17:49,559 --> 00:17:55,000 your work. Yeah, I mean I've won either way already, and not 214 00:17:55,039 --> 00:18:00,720 only I want. Anyone who values meritocracy has won already. Anyways. The 215 00:18:00,759 --> 00:18:06,079 prediction markets are where gamblers can bet against other gamblers on real world outcomes, 216 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,960 and there is currently a forty five percent chance that she is fired within the 217 00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:18,240 next year. Wow, So I wontter if she's seen that. Yeah, 218 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,559 it's a coin flip. Basically, a lot of people are thinking it might 219 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:26,279 happen during Christmas, right that's a good time, because like all the heat 220 00:18:26,319 --> 00:18:30,039 is mounting right now, and that might save them from the congressional probe that 221 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,319 is to on December twenty nine. And a lot of people think she might 222 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:38,160 because they've already kind of dug in their heels. What they might do is 223 00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:41,599 just like ride out a few months, let it blow over, and then 224 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:45,799 maybe this summer that will she'll quietly leave to go spend more time with their 225 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:52,000 family. Yeah. I mean, it's a fifty to fifty coin slip right 226 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:55,799 now whether she'll stay or go. And I'm betting on her going, Like 227 00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,720 I literally bet real money. I'm not sure if that's good journalistic practice, 228 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,839 but I'm pretty open about my bias. Like the tagline on myself stack is 229 00:19:04,039 --> 00:19:10,319 opinionated investigative journalism, And I put it opinionated in there because I don't really 230 00:19:10,319 --> 00:19:15,160 think there's such a thing as unbiased investigative journalism. Like, everyone has a 231 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,119 bias. It's just a matter of how open you are about it. Yeah, 232 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,440 you have a bias when you choose a headline, when you decide what 233 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:25,039 to write about. It's all there's no way to extricate it from what you're 234 00:19:25,079 --> 00:19:30,240 doing. I think that's fantastic. On the scholarship question, I mean plagiarizing 235 00:19:30,279 --> 00:19:34,440 the acknowledgments is really funny. I think we're up to some five big examples 236 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:40,240 between all of the probes into clouding gay and as you mentioned New York Times 237 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:45,000 as a story just today, that's we're taking this December twenty first, are 238 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:51,799 there what is the kind of on the academic side the acknowledgements hilarious, but 239 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:57,319 thinking about you know, other scholars, other academics who she cribbed from on 240 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,559 a substance of level, what is that tell us basically, like, what 241 00:20:00,559 --> 00:20:04,240 do we know about her? Pattern there and what does that tell us about 242 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:11,880 how she approached some of this work. So it's important to know that she 243 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:18,160 didn't just steal like lazy paragraphs. She sole ideas. And one of the 244 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,319 best examples of this is doctor Carol Swain, who I love. I didn't 245 00:20:22,319 --> 00:20:25,920 know who she was until this week, but now I'm like her biggest fan. 246 00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:33,359 So cluding Gay stole paragraphs from Carol Swain's work, and then Carol Swain 247 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,119 looked into it. Who Carol Swain is a black lady, Not that it 248 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:45,400 should matter, but since it kind of does, cladding gay. So yeah. 249 00:20:45,519 --> 00:20:51,920 So Carol Swain was like a big name in the emerging field of DEI 250 00:20:52,079 --> 00:20:57,000 or critical race theory twenty thirty years ago, and she was like against affirmative 251 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:06,799 action. She was like kind of Clarence Clarence Thomas hype black conservative. And 252 00:21:06,839 --> 00:21:11,799 then yeah, so she's come out and she said, look like clouding Gate 253 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,880 not only stole my paragraphs, but she built on my work. She took 254 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,839 my work and twisted it. My work is the foundation of all her work. 255 00:21:21,559 --> 00:21:26,440 And like it's I've been shut out of the media because my work was 256 00:21:26,519 --> 00:21:30,960 honest, but it went against their preferred narrative, and she's been lifted up 257 00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:36,759 because even though her work was dishonest, it was exactly what white liberals wanted 258 00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:41,319 to hear. And that's who put fighting Gay in Turge really is like guilty 259 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:48,000 white liberals. Right yeah, well, and I mean that's kind of the 260 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,319 bigger picture here. And again, as somebody who's been looking into not just 261 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,960 her career, but then as you explore her career kind of academia as a 262 00:21:53,960 --> 00:22:00,000 whole, there's something about the style of her substance. And when I said 263 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:03,799 a style, it is not just style, of course, his politics, 264 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,680 the stylish politics, the you know, the kind of Tom Wolf, as 265 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:15,160 Tom Wolf would describe it, style over substance here, and it seems to 266 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:23,079 me Clutting Gay is basically a textbook example of someone whose career benefited enormously from 267 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:30,519 that that style, the political fashions over the substance, and the fact that 268 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:34,440 she is at the head of the most prestigious college in the country, which 269 00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:38,319 is refusing to get rid of her when shown the problems with the substance. 270 00:22:40,079 --> 00:22:42,240 This is kind of a leading question, Chris, But that seems to say 271 00:22:42,279 --> 00:22:48,279 a whole lot about higher education. Right, Well, yesterday I published my 272 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:53,200 first article in The Blade, which is exciting for me, Like I don't 273 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,480 know why I like publishing in New olitza kind of I don't know, but 274 00:22:57,519 --> 00:23:03,720 I published an article co Harvard is the bud Light of academia, and that 275 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:08,440 kind of sums up what you're getting at is that, like lud Light was 276 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,000 a punchline, and now Harvard is a punchline, Like it took them four 277 00:23:12,079 --> 00:23:18,160 hundred years to build their reputation for excellence and now like other professors see them 278 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,720 as like a cautionary tale to be avoided. And yeah, I mean other 279 00:23:23,759 --> 00:23:27,319 professors are speaking up. If you look on x, which is a good 280 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:33,400 place to find professors speaking about this, you'll see like untold number of professors 281 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:40,559 speaking out against Harvard, like talking about how it's a travesty that Claudi and 282 00:23:40,599 --> 00:23:44,640 k is ruining their reputation because that's really what she's doing. She's the fact 283 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,000 that she is their leader, and she's a serial plagiarist and a mediocre less 284 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,640 than mediocre scholar, and she's their president. It's really tanking their reputation. 285 00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:59,359 Like I've never seen anything like this in academia before, just like nobody had 286 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:04,599 ever seen anything in the beer market before that happened to by Light. Yeah, 287 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,119 it's just go ahead. I was just gonna say, I mean, 288 00:24:08,319 --> 00:24:12,839 it's the so what because I can I know, like the New York Times 289 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,559 quotes people saying, you know, basically, this is just a conservative hit 290 00:24:18,759 --> 00:24:23,359 that they're being. They're nitpicking years and years and years of scholarship, blah 291 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:30,640 blah blah blah blah. But obviously, if you're another professor or another you 292 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,079 know, somebody who's who's in management at another school, or you're a student 293 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:40,680 who was just kicked out of school for a mistake that you made, a 294 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:44,759 miss a judgment, that you made a sort of moral judgment that you aired 295 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,160 in. And here's the president of the university. That does feel like and 296 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,880 maybe you can speak to this. Having scanned the reactions of other people in 297 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,240 academia, that seems like a pretty big part of the so what question? 298 00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:02,839 Right, Well, I'm not even scanning reactions. I'm getting emails from them, 299 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,160 and a lot of them say like, hey, I can't say this 300 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,720 outloud, Like people from Harvard have emailed me and said, hey, I 301 00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:11,799 can't say this outloud, But like you're spot on. We can't speak up 302 00:25:11,839 --> 00:25:19,440 against her because like that would be career suicide at Harvard. So there's a 303 00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:26,839 vocal minority that's cheering cludding gay on still, but they're like the vocal minority, 304 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,440 right, they're not the majority, the silent majority, Like I think 305 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:36,079 she's a joke or embarrassed fire and just like are tired of this whole thing. 306 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,680 They want her to go, and it's just a matter of them having 307 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:48,079 their voice heard to the US Congress and to the US and to's the Harvard 308 00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:52,720 Corporation Board of overseers, which is really the final decision maker here. So 309 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:55,519 that's like I can't name them off the top of my head, but that's 310 00:25:55,519 --> 00:26:00,319 like Penny Pritzker, Penny Pittsker and her friends basically are the ones can make 311 00:26:00,319 --> 00:26:04,880 the final decision. It's chilling. Yeah, Well, they're the ones who 312 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:12,279 installed her, and she's she's an easy puppet to control, right because she 313 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:18,720 has such a weak profile. She's what it's not like she's gonna say no 314 00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:21,880 to them or I guess she has to note to them on the anti semitism 315 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,920 issue. Yeah. Yeah, one professor who's spoken up, I was very 316 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:33,599 grateful for this quote that he gave me was doctor Philip died Big. I 317 00:26:33,599 --> 00:26:37,640 don't know to say the last name, died Big. He won the Nobel 318 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,480 Prize in Economics last year and I emailed every Nobel laureate just get to get 319 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,640 a quote, and he was the only one that answered me. And full 320 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,960 credit to him, because it's not easy for someone with that much profile to 321 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,519 speak up. But he gave me a very strong quote talking about He wasn't 322 00:26:53,519 --> 00:26:57,759 talking about cluttings, plagiarism, and this speaks to just how many things are 323 00:26:57,799 --> 00:27:03,519 wrong with her. He was speaking about her leadership and her messaging on anti 324 00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:10,839 Semitism, and he gave me a very strong quote about how people who were 325 00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:18,680 oppressed don't dream of equality, they dream of being becoming the oppressor. And 326 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:23,960 that's like a very fiery quote for a Nobel winner and economics. I'm very 327 00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:26,680 very grateful he gave me that quote. It got like millions of views on 328 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,079 Twitter. My Twitter has dolded the past week by the way, I went 329 00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:37,839 from ten thousand to twenty five thousand. You know that another thing we haven't 330 00:27:37,839 --> 00:27:44,440 even touched on, although it's loomed really obviously in the background of the whole 331 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:51,279 conversation is how this is part of the fallout from the bizarre although not surprising 332 00:27:51,559 --> 00:27:56,759 testimonies they gave him the anti semitism hearing clutting Gay along with Liz McGill from 333 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:03,799 Penn and the pressive event my Tea just obviously we've talked about on this podcast 334 00:28:03,799 --> 00:28:07,640 a couple of times already, but that's clearly part of the context here. 335 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,319 So combined with that, Chris, I'm wondering again, as you're reporting on 336 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,759 the reaction, as you're hearing from people, as you're you know, kind 337 00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:21,599 of in this in the middle of this as a reporter yourself, how are 338 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:27,759 those two things affecting higher education in America right now inside of itself and with 339 00:28:27,839 --> 00:28:33,920 outside pressures from people like Bill Ackman, Virginia Fox obviously in Congress, head 340 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,880 of the Help Committee in Congress, who announced the investigation today. Is this 341 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,079 continuing to really royal academia or you know, are they just kind of dealing 342 00:28:42,119 --> 00:28:49,160 with it superficially and hoping that it goes away. I think it kind of 343 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,039 has gone away for the rest of academia. Like I think if you're the 344 00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:56,960 president of Brown or the president of UCLA right now, you're not too worried 345 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:03,599 about being fired over anti Semitic whatever on campus. I think they've mostly figured 346 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:08,839 out how to deal with it, and it's kind of pasted its peak media 347 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,039 attention. Right, it was like the main thing in the media for a 348 00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:18,400 couple of weeks and now it's kind of Christmas. People aren't so much focused 349 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:23,960 on it free speech And I'm not trying to downplay anti Semitism or the whole 350 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,920 Hamas issue, right, It's just not really something I write about. I've 351 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,279 never I've written like three hundred articles in my career, and not a single 352 00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:40,880 one has been about anti Semitism or Israel or Middle East during politics. Although 353 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,519 I do write about free speech on campus, I make a I've just I 354 00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:52,759 don't know the most recent Like I don't know. I try to stay away 355 00:29:52,759 --> 00:29:56,920 from the Israel war, and for that reason, I'll kind of I'm not 356 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:03,559 an expert on how it's impacted the climate because I've kind of tuned out that 357 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:11,839 whole dialogue on X Like really, for me, this is a personal story, 358 00:30:11,079 --> 00:30:17,279 Like I'm personally invested in it, and I'm invested in the meritocracy component 359 00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:21,640 and the free speech component has kind of taken it back to you. I'm 360 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,720 sorry that's not a great answer to your question, but that's my truth. 361 00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:30,440 No, I think it is actually because you know, the free speech question 362 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,960 sort of split people in the center and the center right and the right in 363 00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:38,920 general during the anti Semitism hearings. But one thing I think that was clear 364 00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:44,759 from the hearings is that they are, even in an academic sense, they're 365 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:53,680 so bogged down in the mediocrities of Dei ideology. They're just so incapable of 366 00:30:53,759 --> 00:31:00,319 original thought because they're you know, in prisons intellectually of their own. You 367 00:31:00,359 --> 00:31:03,759 know, they sort of locked themselves into these ridiculous Dei cages, and that 368 00:31:03,799 --> 00:31:08,759 ties into absolutely everything. You know, they're obviously hypocrites on free speech. 369 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:15,640 But that question of like media like just plain mediocrity, I feel like is 370 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:19,200 maybe the biggest takeaway from the whole, like the last two months, whether 371 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:25,599 it's the president of Harvard turning out to easily be discovered as a serial plagiarist 372 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:32,279 or or you know, being incapable of having a coherent and principled and seemingly 373 00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:37,359 like actually logical answer on what's happening in her code of conduct and you know 374 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:44,759 what constitutes bullying harrassment in any of those things, Chris, is that is 375 00:31:44,799 --> 00:31:47,279 my interpretation of this. Would you agree with that, No problem if you 376 00:31:47,319 --> 00:31:49,359 don't. But it does seem like all of this the big theme is that 377 00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:57,000 higher ed is just utterly mediocre. I think there's still a lot of excellent 378 00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:04,680 people in higher education. For for a long time, I was set on 379 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:12,039 blowing up higher education. So I was set on revolution. But now I'm 380 00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:15,160 coming around to reform, Like I saw a hope that it can be reformed, 381 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:21,039 and the university has played such an important role, Like it's easy to 382 00:32:21,079 --> 00:32:24,799 say burn them down, defund them all, but I don't know. I'm 383 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,880 kind of sympathetic to academia. Like I wanted to be an academic. I 384 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,599 was black both from academia, Like I was rejected from every PhD program I 385 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:39,119 got into. So maybe that's my my my motivation. I was really angry 386 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,839 for a while, which so I wanted to burn down the system, which 387 00:32:43,839 --> 00:32:49,640 is why I should exposed as product coruption. Yeah, but no, I 388 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:55,720 mean, like Claudine Gay has to go because she's embarrassing so many good people, 389 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,720 and like Harvard, I know it's also easy to say Hervard's evil Harvard's 390 00:33:01,759 --> 00:33:08,519 in the middle of every war that's ever happened in history. But it's hard 391 00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:14,680 to tell that to like chemistry professor who's dedicated his life to chemistry and only 392 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:21,119 cares about chemistry, and like he's built his whole life from chemistry. He 393 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:27,759 loves it. And then out of nowhere, like this mediocre woman has come 394 00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:34,200 and embarrassed him and like hurt his reputation and hurt his funding. Like I 395 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,680 feel bad for that guy. I want to I want her to be fired, 396 00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:40,920 not for my own eventual purposes, but like I think it'll make the 397 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,920 world a better place if mediocre people aren't in charge of the most important institutions 398 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:52,279 in society. And yeah, I mean that's really what it's all about at 399 00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:57,799 the end of the day, is it's is making the world a better place. 400 00:33:57,839 --> 00:34:00,839 And that's what I'm trying to do with my reporting. And I listed 401 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,519 kind of way, yeah, making sure those chemistry professors are still around ten 402 00:34:05,599 --> 00:34:08,320 twenty years into the future, there that we still have you know, non 403 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:16,000 mediocre that you know, the great engine that is America's higher education system doesn't 404 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:23,360 produce or promote mediocre over substance. Chris Brunette that's so interesting. Really appreciate 405 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:28,679 you coming on the show. People can find your work on substack. What's 406 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:34,480 the substack link again, Chris, Carl Stack. If you google Carl Stack 407 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,360 with the K, that's the first result. There you go, Chris Brunette. 408 00:34:38,519 --> 00:34:44,360 Really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. All right, you've 409 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:46,559 been listening to another edition of The Federalist or radio Hour. I'm Emily Jasinski, 410 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:50,280 culture editor here at The Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 411 00:34:50,400 --> 00:35:00,400 Until then, it lovers a freedom and anxious for the fray. All you