WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:06.000 Hudson River Radio dot com. It beats listening to nothing. Oh my godness, 2 00:00:06.080 --> 00:00:13.679 Frank Being Frank point where the only way to be is Frank. Hello 3 00:00:13.720 --> 00:00:18.239 everyone, and welcome to Being Frank, where the only way to be is 4 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:21.160 Frank. I'm your host, Frank Leblona, and I'd like to thank you 5 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:26.280 for joining us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast, where 6 00:00:26.280 --> 00:00:31.239 no conversation is out of bounds and all points of view are welcome. You 7 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:34.119 know, we record live to tape and I give you the date so you 8 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.960 have some context and relevance for our conversation. It is May twenty third, 9 00:00:39.039 --> 00:00:43.640 twenty twenty four. This is actually our one hundred and seventeenth show. By 10 00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:48.320 the way, we keep rolling right along and May has been designated as mental 11 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:52.799 health Awareness month, and considering the state of the world today, we could 12 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:57.320 all use some effective ways to treat ourselves well first, so that we may 13 00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:02.000 do the same to others. But we find respect for ourselves, we can 14 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:06.439 never truly respect those around us, even those we may love. This, 15 00:01:06.480 --> 00:01:10.760 in turn, can create destructive behavior. It may include addiction and or violence. 16 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.480 It seems that every time we turn on the TV or go to social 17 00:01:14.519 --> 00:01:19.840 media, there's an abundance of stories of seriously mentally disturbed people committing random acts 18 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:23.840 of violence, particularly in New York City. According to the National Alliance of 19 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:29.439 Mental Illness, more than fifty million American adults experience a mental illness each year, 20 00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:33.920 which is over twenty percent of the population. And of course, no 21 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:38.359 matter what side your sympathies may lay on, the images of death and destruction 22 00:01:38.480 --> 00:01:42.439 and gods that can bring even the most hardened person to tears. So has 23 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:49.359 our capacity for cruelty increased while our compassion has decreased? Is this perception based 24 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:53.280 on sensational media reporting or is it fact based? Is the world simply getting 25 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:57.120 meaner? Is so? What may be causing this? Why are so many 26 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:02.000 young people falling into the depths of Why are there so many homeless people, 27 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:07.520 many of them suffering with mental illness? Why are we closing and defunding agencies 28 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:12.120 that might provide some help? And if we address the issue, is it 29 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:15.759 possible to find a solution or are we damned to keep going until we destroy 30 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:21.039 ourselves? As we say virtually every week, the mission of this program is 31 00:02:21.080 --> 00:02:27.240 to use intelligent conversation to create the dialogue necessary to facilitate positive outcomes, and 32 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:31.000 I can't think of anyone more qualified to bring his most qualified opinions to this 33 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:36.919 most important topic. He's the best selling author of Some Assembly Required, based 34 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:40.919 on his own true life experiences overcoming addiction, and is a frequent contributor to 35 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:46.039 Psychology Today, where his articles have gotten millions of views. And he's also 36 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:53.000 my friend, a former Long Island High school basketball standout. I get that 37 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:55.719 in I make him smile. You can't see it, but he's smiling right 38 00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:00.000 now. Please welcome my dear friend, Dan Major. Dan, thank you, 39 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:02.599 Thank you, Frank. It's a pleasure to be here with you again. 40 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:07.520 Yes, you've been on a few times before with the topic of addiction 41 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:10.599 mental health, and we're back again because we need to talk about it. 42 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:14.759 And I think the more that we do talk about it, the more we 43 00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:19.039 can bring certain things to light. There's a greater chance of helping people. 44 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:22.240 And I certainly know what you're about, and that's what this program is about. 45 00:03:22.240 --> 00:03:23.879 At the same time, so you know, there's a lot to unpack. 46 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:27.960 Let's get into our conversation. First of all, I mean, you 47 00:03:27.960 --> 00:03:34.599 hear mental health and awareness, et cetera. What makes for a mentally healthy 48 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.680 person is that someone who's smiling all the time, happy all the time. 49 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:44.759 What can we see as someone who's well adjusted mentally has good, solid, 50 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:52.400 strong mental health. Well, there are certain outward indicators, but there isn't 51 00:03:52.400 --> 00:03:59.159 a direct correlation between how people look on the outside and there and what's going 52 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:08.639 on on the side their internal experience. Smiles can be an indication of contentment, 53 00:04:09.159 --> 00:04:13.319 of being at piece, of being happy, but they can also be 54 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:18.560 a cover up. They can also be a mask or a disguise where the 55 00:04:18.759 --> 00:04:28.000 internal experience is completely different and a person wants to literally put on a happy 56 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:33.720 face, you know, sometimes because they're not interested or simply you know, 57 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:43.560 aren't able to show their true internal experience outwardly, or they're concerned about outward 58 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:49.319 appearances and they're really interested in people viewing them a certain way, thinking of 59 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:59.199 them in a certain way. But what makes for healthy mental health is a 60 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:04.000 function of of balance on a variety of levels. You know, certainly in 61 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:11.800 terms of you know, mental balance related to the cognitive realm. That has 62 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:15.959 to do with with how we think, you know, to what extent are 63 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:25.920 people conscious of their thoughts and the stories that our thoughts automatically combine to create 64 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:31.519 stories about how things are, you know, in our direct experience, what 65 00:05:31.560 --> 00:05:35.639 we see on TV, what we read on social media, and so often 66 00:05:35.680 --> 00:05:43.639 our thoughts combined to create these stories, these narratives that are incredibly compelling, 67 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:49.399 convincing, and often seductive, and yet they may have relatively little to do 68 00:05:49.879 --> 00:05:57.680 with the reality of our experience. But they latch on to our attention and 69 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:03.160 they pull it in various directions, sometimes to places back in our past, 70 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:08.560 stuff that happened yesterday, last week, two years ago, back when we 71 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:12.839 were kids, even or pulls it into the future. Oh no, what's 72 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:17.399 going to happen tomorrow, next week, six months from now, and and 73 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:24.879 and so forth. And what happens is our thoughts have the capacity to pull 74 00:06:24.959 --> 00:06:31.680 us very far away from present moment experience. And when when that happens, 75 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:38.639 usually it happens unconsciously, automatically and habitually, and people are very unaware of 76 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:45.079 it. And then then what happens is that our thoughts and the stories they 77 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:53.879 create, they contribute directly to the emotions that we experience, and so so 78 00:06:53.879 --> 00:07:01.000 so balanced cognitive experience. Good mental health in that area relates to being consciously 79 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:05.680 aware of our thoughts and what our thoughts are telling us so that we can 80 00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:11.319 make an informed determination. Okay, this is what I'm thinking. Does this 81 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:16.920 make sense? Or is is this bolt wrap? You know which which which 82 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:21.480 it often is? And then our thoughts, our thoughts lead directly into our 83 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:29.199 emotions. So when our thoughts create stories that that rap onto our attention and 84 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:32.639 and uh and pull it back into the past. Often the emotions that go 85 00:07:32.759 --> 00:07:42.920 along with that are things like sadness, regret, guilt, shame, anger, 86 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:47.920 resentment, loss, and so forth. And when when the stories are 87 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:54.199 about things that might happen in the future, well that's that's the preferred hangout 88 00:07:54.279 --> 00:08:01.000 of anxiety and fear about the things that that we get caught up in thinking 89 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:05.600 in such powerful ways that we're almost certain that it's going to happen, and 90 00:08:05.720 --> 00:08:13.360 yet so rarely actually does. But you know, creates this intense anxiety or 91 00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:22.319 fear that that has direct influence over over our our perspective and and our and 92 00:08:22.360 --> 00:08:26.120 our actions. So you know, when that happens, we are you know, 93 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:31.360 we talk about being people being under the influence of alcohol and other drugs, 94 00:08:31.399 --> 00:08:35.759 for example, and they're you know, they're impaired, their decision making 95 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:41.240 and their judgment is uh is uh is not online effectively, I think the 96 00:08:41.320 --> 00:08:48.720 same thing happens when we are operating under the influence of really intense, powerful 97 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:54.960 emotion we are in we're under the influence, we are in some respects impaired. 98 00:08:54.519 --> 00:09:01.200 So healthy balance related to our emotional life has to do with with being 99 00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:07.679 consciously aware of what our feelings actually are, what we're feeling in this moment, 100 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:16.279 and being present with it rather and just allowing it to be part of 101 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:22.720 our experience so that we're not overwhelmed by those emotions, or because they're so 102 00:09:22.919 --> 00:09:30.039 uncomfortable, we're actively trying to push them away, to run away from them, 103 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:33.639 to medicate or to numb them. Yeah. I'm certainly no theologian, 104 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:39.279 and I'm not a Buddhist, but I've done some studying and what you've said 105 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:43.679 echoes with me from my understanding too. Even with the budh of the middle 106 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:50.120 path of the floating lotus going neither north nor south in bounds, and it 107 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:52.799 seems to me that seems to be part of their of the Buddhist philosophy, 108 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:58.480 of their of their belief system, is to be in touch with all feelings 109 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:03.240 that I saw it. It's funny internet meme, and I want to get 110 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:05.960 into some of the good and bad parts of social media and the Internet, 111 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:11.559 and some of the good things that you do see is the exchange of ideas 112 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:16.000 and information and some of them. It was very interesting today. It was 113 00:10:16.039 --> 00:10:20.320 about being in touch with your feelings. I wish I could remember it exactly, 114 00:10:20.919 --> 00:10:26.320 and it said something along the lines that you really you don't have friends 115 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:31.600 or enemies in life, you only have teachers. And that really struck me 116 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:37.440 if you look and read between the lines there that all experience. It depends 117 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:41.120 on how we accept the experience. That makes the difference. Is that am 118 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:46.039 I on the right track? That way? Absolutely, frank And in fact, 119 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:58.320 there are several notable psychotheraic psychotherapeutic approaches that have evolved over the last ten 120 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:05.039 to twenty years or so that incorporate mindfulness as one of the one of the 121 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:13.960 core principles and set of and sets of skills that people's mental health can benefit 122 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:22.879 from their learning and practicing. But being being able to be present with the 123 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:28.559 full continuum of our experience, you know, not getting too attached to the 124 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:37.960 pleasurable and and the things that we want and not not not running away from 125 00:11:37.440 --> 00:11:43.919 or needing, needing to avoid, whether it's whether it's by literal avoidance or 126 00:11:43.039 --> 00:11:50.639 numbing or self medicating the things that we find uncomfortable or or or painful. 127 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:58.120 In fact, you know, learning how to be okay with discomfort is one 128 00:11:58.279 --> 00:12:05.639 of I think the most crucial life skills anyone can develop, learning how to 129 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:11.919 be comfortable with discomforts, as it were, And that doesn't mean that we 130 00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:16.320 like being uncomfortable, that we like discomfort or various forms of pain. Of 131 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:22.000 course we don't that, you know, unless unless you're a masochist. Discomfort 132 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:26.639 is uncomfortable, and pain is painful, and who wants that, you know, 133 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.799 it'd be nice if we could avoid it. But the reality is life 134 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:39.120 has, you know, ample doses of discomfort and pain for everyone. They 135 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:45.960 are simply part of life, part of being human, and to attempt to 136 00:12:46.039 --> 00:12:52.960 avoid it is a self defeating, foolish, ultimately effort, because it always 137 00:12:54.399 --> 00:13:01.360 backfires on us and and amplifies and extends whatever form and discomfort for we're trying 138 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:07.320 to avoid. So learning how to be present with and move as gracefully through 139 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:15.759 our present moment experience. Whether it's whether it's pleasurable or painful is one of 140 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:20.519 the keys to quality mental health. And when we can do that, we 141 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:28.519 develop much greater capacity to be fundamentally content, to experience peace of mind, 142 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:37.279 greater peace of mind and peace of heart. It isn't I see wellness, 143 00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:41.639 and I'm sure that you share this with me too. Wellness is being all 144 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:46.440 connected. It's a total bodily experience, if you will. It's a holistic 145 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.799 I guess is the modern term for it, where everything being connected. I 146 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:54.600 used to be what was a boy scout, say, a healthy mind, 147 00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:58.399 healthy body, or healthy body leads to healthy mind. It sounds kind of 148 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:05.480 pollyanist today, but there's some truth to that. Living a healthy lifestyle both 149 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:09.480 physically improves your mental outlook and vice versa. Is that not true? It's 150 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:13.879 absolutely true. You know. There's something like forty or forty five years of 151 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:20.639 really substantial scientific research that demonstrates, unequivalent, unequivocally that the mind and the 152 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:28.320 body are so directly and intimately connected that inevitably whatever affects one will affect the 153 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:35.799 other. And so we can, by virtue of what we think and how 154 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:41.039 our thoughts and the stories they tell us influence our emotions that affects our body 155 00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:48.039 in the same way that when we're ill or we're injured, think about how 156 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:58.200 that affects how we think and how we feel emotionally. The relationship is absolutely 157 00:14:58.320 --> 00:15:03.519 reciprocal and very powerful and and and there are you know, beyond the mind 158 00:15:03.559 --> 00:15:07.600 and the body. We're talking about about the mind, heart, body and 159 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:11.039 spirit. So it relates to you know, how we how we think, 160 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:18.440 how we how we feel emotionally, what's going on in our body or physical 161 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:26.240 sensations and physical health and well being, as well as our spiritual centeredness and 162 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:31.679 by by spiritual, you know, for for some people there's a direct connection 163 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:39.279 between the spiritual and religious, and what spiritual for them relates to uh a 164 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:46.679 specific conception of God and a particular form of organized religion. For many people, 165 00:15:48.200 --> 00:15:52.960 those those two things have nothing to including myself, They have nothing to 166 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:58.720 do with each other. And spirituality in the big picture sense related to mental 167 00:15:58.759 --> 00:16:06.120 health and well being me is simply a connection with that beyond oneself, you 168 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:11.080 know, with with other people, with the world around us, with nature, 169 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:17.159 with the with with the universe more more more broadly and doing you know, 170 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:23.600 what we can to believe also have some faith in something beyond ourselves, 171 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:30.919 say you hear. That's often a belief in something greater than our than ourselves. 172 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:34.919 And it doesn't necessarily have to be a supreme being, I believe I 173 00:16:34.919 --> 00:16:41.679 hear you saying, but but some connection that you're part of something greater exactly, 174 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:45.600 you know, for from for many For many people, it's being out 175 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:52.240 in in nature, or or being part of other larger communities, you know, 176 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:59.600 the twelve step community being being one, you know. And I'm a 177 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:03.919 member of twelve step program and as we were talking before the show started, 178 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:11.680 I was asked by a friend who lives in Tehran via Facebook to share what's 179 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:19.160 referred to as my experience, strength and hope related to long term recovery at 180 00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:25.400 my twelve step meeting. I'm not going to say which fellowship it is because 181 00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:33.119 that technically is against a specific tradition that guides activities in twelve step programs. 182 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.279 Now people may be able to figure it out, but you won't hear it 183 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:45.039 directly from me. But so I was asked to speak at this meeting via 184 00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:51.359 zoom that's based in Tehran, Iran, this afternoon, and so you know, 185 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:57.279 I spoke for about half an hour to one hundred and fifty Iranian men 186 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:02.119 and women. And one of the things things that I mentioned was that you 187 00:18:02.160 --> 00:18:07.240 know right now and the Iranian people are are very different from the Iranian government, 188 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:11.640 which is important for ever everyone to know. But one of the things 189 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:19.480 I mentioned was how how how at odds Iran and America have you know, 190 00:18:19.599 --> 00:18:25.480 are and have been for a very long time. And yet this community, 191 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:34.440 this commonality of shared experience as well as interest and goals, brings us together 192 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:45.200 across the globe for common purpose, with the idea of getting better, of 193 00:18:45.839 --> 00:18:52.519 improving the quality of our of our lives by assisting one another, by being 194 00:18:52.599 --> 00:18:56.720 of service to one another in these ways. And you know, every every 195 00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:04.880 significant spiritual tradition in the history of the world, including religious traditions, they 196 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:12.200 all have as one of their principal values being of service to others. And 197 00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:18.640 that's one of these specific actions that contributes to good overall mental health and well 198 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:23.720 being, because when we're of service to others, we are not anywhere near 199 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:30.839 as self absorbed as as we can be when we're just caught up in our 200 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.720 own stuff. Perfect segue, because I wanted to ask, and you know, 201 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:37.519 that's very much the upside of social media, and I want to develop 202 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.880 that in a little bit. But before that, and I hinted at it 203 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:48.200 in my introduction. So people meaner today? I know, I've heard it. 204 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:52.119 I've heard it from my friends. You can't have a civil discussion anymore. 205 00:19:52.119 --> 00:19:56.799 People have behind behind the internet. They get nasty. And again I 206 00:19:56.839 --> 00:20:02.960 don't I think it's not fair to to equate all the violence that's happening that 207 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.519 we see on the news with with with mental illness. But there certainly is 208 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:14.119 a connection in many cases. So are we becoming meaner as a society? 209 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:21.160 We hear it often and we see it often. Are we You know, 210 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:29.319 it's impossible to say in any sort of objective or certain sort of way, 211 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:37.400 I think, frank, although it's certainly an important and worthy question. I 212 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:45.960 think that that because of the increasing influence of not just social media, but 213 00:20:45.960 --> 00:20:52.440 but online information where people, you know, where people get their information, 214 00:20:52.599 --> 00:21:00.640 where they get their news, because it has become so hyper partisan, you 215 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:07.720 know, it has become so much more divisive and vitriolic. And these divisions 216 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:14.599 have always existed, but you know, everyone didn't have the same access to 217 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:19.200 a platform. And then there are all these all these alleged sources of news 218 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:32.359 that quite frankly are complete distortions and inaccurate presentations of the reality of what is. 219 00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:38.160 And it's designed to to separate and divide and gas up the intensity of 220 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:48.400 negativity toward the toward other other groups basically, so you know, And and 221 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.200 then part of it also and this is this is this is a long standing 222 00:21:52.319 --> 00:22:00.599 question. So are things getting worse or are we just better informed because because 223 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:07.200 we have so much more access to information than than ever before. And I 224 00:22:07.240 --> 00:22:11.079 and I think it's I think it's probably a bit of both. But but 225 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:15.160 you know, when we when we look back at how at how at how 226 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:22.480 people lived in earlier times, you know, it tends to be romanticized and 227 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.079 and uh I idealized. And you know, like we think about like life 228 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:32.440 in the American as as as America was being developed and people were moving moving 229 00:22:32.519 --> 00:22:37.200 west and trying to settle that was a horribly difficult life. And people got 230 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:42.759 killed all the time for very horrible ways often, yeah, and in some 231 00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:49.480 cases for for very little reason, you know. So, but but you 232 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:55.440 know, worried about that didn't get around all all that often. And and 233 00:22:55.920 --> 00:23:00.039 is there more mental illness now? Uh? Probably because you know, there's 234 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:07.799 there's Although I think life has always been stressful, I think the intensity of 235 00:23:07.880 --> 00:23:14.640 that stress has probably increased and become become a bit more widespread. And that's 236 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:19.960 something that that you know, these many of these news sources and social media 237 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:26.119 certainly plays a role in how much impossible to discern. But you know, 238 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:32.880 so for example, I have I have some very dear friends whose politics is 239 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:37.720 on the opposite side of the spectrum from my own. And I work really 240 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:44.079 hard not to unfriend people or cut them out of my life for that reason, 241 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:49.319 especially when these relationships have in some cases existed for decades, and these 242 00:23:49.359 --> 00:23:53.279 people have been you know, like old dear friends, and you know, 243 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:59.359 I love them and and and to an extent, I know they're I know 244 00:23:59.400 --> 00:24:03.440 their heart. But you know, when when when someone says to me, 245 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:07.960 you know, this side of the political spectrum, they they actually are in 246 00:24:08.039 --> 00:24:15.480 favor of post birth abortion, and I'm like, what what you mean? 247 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:22.680 You mean infanticide? You mean murder? No one, no one is advocating 248 00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:26.559 for that, no one is suggesting that that is remotely acceptable, you know, 249 00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:33.440 but they are convinced because they hear it from particular sources of news that 250 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:41.240 sound so convincing and so certain, and it aligns with certain aspects of the 251 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:49.480 way they think. And it's it's it's uh, it's it's a profound uh 252 00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:56.960 example of a metaphor for how difficult things can be to find you know, 253 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:03.640 common ground and have a meeting of the minds. You know. A key 254 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:07.680 word that you mentioned and I did as well. It's something I very much 255 00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:12.799 believe in is balance. And within that balance there's nature and nurture. If 256 00:25:12.839 --> 00:25:18.319 I might use my personal experience by nature at times in certain ways, I 257 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:25.240 can be volatile. If I perceive that I'm being disrespected in almost any way, 258 00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:29.559 I tend to be triggered, I guess is the right word, and 259 00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:32.240 I can be violatal with that happened the other day. I was with my 260 00:25:32.319 --> 00:25:36.200 girlfriend and somebody cut me off and one thing led to another, and the 261 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:44.400 road rage is this close. And that's my nature. But by nurture, 262 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:49.279 I understand. It's ridiculous people get hurt by that, especially today now with 263 00:25:49.720 --> 00:25:52.680 the ever presence of guns. People pull guns out and they shoot you for 264 00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:59.119 such silly things, and it's just stupid really in the bigger picture when you 265 00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:03.480 think about it, or momentary for five minutes would have been gone and completely 266 00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:07.640 forgot about. But within that short period of time, my nature is to 267 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:11.279 act that way, and I would like to preserve some of that, because 268 00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:19.119 I think it's notable whatever to have some pride in yourself, okay, without 269 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:26.480 being overly much so, so I don't want to lose all of that. 270 00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:30.440 So I don't know where I can put it. Sometimes how do I keep 271 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:37.440 what I think is somewhat worthy part of my nature but also can create problems 272 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:41.799 at the same time? How do we achieve a balance between nature and nurture? 273 00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.200 If you follow where I went, we have that long Rambt dissertation. 274 00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:51.880 Well, I think you know. We can't control the first thought that comes 275 00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:59.400 to mind, because the human mind produces this continuous waterfall of thoughts, one 276 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:04.920 after another after another. But we can discern which thoughts make sense and which, 277 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:11.839 you know, which are helpful and healthy, and which which take us 278 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:18.319 further away from balance, which interfere with our ability to live the kind of 279 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:23.079 life we want to respond the way we want in different situations and be the 280 00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:29.319 kind of person we want to be. Similarly, we can't control what emotion 281 00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:34.880 springs up. Uh, you know, right? The first emotion that comes, 282 00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:40.160 that comes to mind or that comes that comes to heart. However, 283 00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:45.680 we have a choice as to what we're going to do with that emotion and 284 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:52.599 how we are going to act in in in response to it. And and 285 00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:55.039 uh, you know I share that, Frank, I mean, you know, 286 00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:59.720 we don't want to there's there's no need to lose who we are fundamentally, 287 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:03.599 you know, to to use kind of a cliche expression, at this 288 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:11.799 point, the the work is to become better versions of ourselves, better healthier, 289 00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:18.240 more well balanced versions of ourselves. So we can still react with with 290 00:28:18.440 --> 00:28:23.359 anger and with uh and and with and with uh, with upset, while 291 00:28:23.880 --> 00:28:33.559 not having to follow that emotion in a reflexive, unconscious way where we can 292 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:37.599 oh, you know that, will well that that sucked, and uh, 293 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.400 and it was it was you know, it was. It was inconsiderate, 294 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.920 perhaps disrespectful, but you know, and maybe I want to you know, 295 00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:52.240 maybe I want to give a horn or or or flip the new Jersey bird. 296 00:28:52.559 --> 00:29:00.160 But but taking it beyond that, you know, serves no useful or 297 00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:06.839 or health or healthy purpose ultimately. And and so so having that having that 298 00:29:07.720 --> 00:29:15.119 conscious realization and being able to to rather than being held captive by an automatic 299 00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:23.759 reflexive reaction to be able to respond more intentionally and skillfully. But but I, 300 00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:26.000 but I, but I know how that is, Frank. I've been 301 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:33.079 meditating basically every day for forty five years, literally missing very few days during 302 00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:38.880 that time. And in the in the car, I can still be subject 303 00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:45.440 to what a friend of mine refers to as vehicular turets at you know, 304 00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:49.319 at any given instant, you know, I will go off cursing in the 305 00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:55.599 cursing in the in the car when when someone does something stupid or or unsafe 306 00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.079 or or in a way that's really really self centered. And and even with 307 00:30:00.200 --> 00:30:04.200 that, you know, again, meditating every day literally for forty five years, 308 00:30:04.240 --> 00:30:07.759 I'm you know, I'm so much better than I used to be, 309 00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:15.480 and that I would be otherwise, But I can still be so incredibly impatient 310 00:30:15.000 --> 00:30:21.920 at times. It's me yes, yeah, so again to do what we 311 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:29.240 can to become better in the in the areas where we struggle or where we're 312 00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:32.960 challenged. I think you've mentioned it as a word. I think it's important 313 00:30:33.079 --> 00:30:36.920 we mention it again here. Mindfulness. You hear it, and Beyonce, 314 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:41.480 oh, it's a new age, it's not there to be mindful of your 315 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.839 place, where it is in the world, what's going on, your reaction 316 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.880 to things, others' reactions to your reaction. It's a much bigger picture, 317 00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:55.000 and you have to be mindful. A certain awareness helps with that, I 318 00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:00.359 would think absolutely, you know, And as it relates to the press have 319 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:04.200 changed the process of healing, of getting better in any area of life. 320 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:12.720 You know, it tracks back to a statement that many people have heard a 321 00:31:12.920 --> 00:31:18.759 version of, and that's basically that the journey of one thousand miles starts with 322 00:31:18.880 --> 00:31:25.119 the very first step. I know you've heard some version of that. Do 323 00:31:25.119 --> 00:31:29.960 you know what? Do you know the origin of that statement? No? 324 00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.640 Please, I've heard it many times, but I don't you know. In 325 00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:41.799 contrast to this being trendy or fetish, that statement is twenty seven hundred years 326 00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:51.759 old and it comes from from the Seminole Book of Taoism, and that, 327 00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:56.920 you know, Taoism is different from Buddhism in that in that it's kind of 328 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:05.119 a general approach to living, more a philosophy of life rather than its Buddhism 329 00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:14.119 is much much richer and more detailed in terms of its various practices and approaches 330 00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:17.720 to life. Daoism is more of a more of a general overview, a 331 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:24.599 philosophy of sorts. Buddhism comes originates from India about five hundred years before the 332 00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:31.359 birth of the historical Jesus Christ, and Taoism. Daoism precedes Buddhism by about 333 00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:37.039 one hundred years and came out of China. And so the book that contains 334 00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:44.240 that statement, the Journey of a Thousand Miles, starts with the very first 335 00:32:44.240 --> 00:32:50.720 step comes from It's a little volume called the Dowbte Ching, and it's only 336 00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:55.799 eighty one verses that reads in many respects more like poetry than prose. It's 337 00:32:55.839 --> 00:33:05.839 really exquisite and has has tremendous wisdom embedded in it. But far from being 338 00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:10.400 trendy or fetish. This is twenty seven hundred year old wisdom, and it 339 00:33:12.119 --> 00:33:22.039 has survived through through going on three millennia at this point because of how universally 340 00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:24.279 true it is. And we're still at it, and we still have to 341 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:29.920 keep working at it. We're still not there yet. This is all of 342 00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:32.319 these things, Frank, It's really the work of a lifetime. Yes, 343 00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:37.799 the proverbial journey as opposed to any discreete destination, I hear you. You 344 00:33:37.799 --> 00:33:42.519 know, it's so important, and we gave a number that's startling, the 345 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.240 fifty million American adults experience of mental illness each year, which is over twenty 346 00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:52.519 percent of the population that comes from the National Alliance on Mental Illness. With 347 00:33:52.640 --> 00:34:00.960 those kind of numbers, yet we continually see institutions that would deal with mental 348 00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:05.400 health being defunded. They're harder and harder to find programs to get people in. 349 00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:10.199 We've had people on with children with autism, for example, two which 350 00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:15.960 to even have them placed. It gets difficult, more and more difficult all 351 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:20.239 the time. Why if so many people have need for it, why is 352 00:34:20.280 --> 00:34:23.599 it such a tough sell on the congressional level to get funding for things that 353 00:34:23.639 --> 00:34:29.960 we really need to have done. There isn't enough will for it people. 354 00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:37.400 You know, people do not put the their their actions in terms of financial 355 00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:49.639 decisions as to what priorities in our country deserve funding relative to to the to 356 00:34:49.719 --> 00:34:54.719 the words that they that they use programs, programs that are designed to help 357 00:34:54.760 --> 00:35:02.440 people with really significant challenges. They cost money, and there are basically never 358 00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:07.480 enough of them. You know, some some states, some areas have have 359 00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:15.000 more and better programs and and easier access to them than others. But in 360 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:23.079 in most places, the the demand for mental health services dramatically exceeds the supply. 361 00:35:23.559 --> 00:35:29.639 I mean, even even for people who are doing okay and and experience 362 00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:34.559 some sort of trauma or they have they have anxiety that's gotten worse that they 363 00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:37.960 want to do some some work on they want to you know, feel they 364 00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:42.280 want to they want to be more functional, uh, degrees of sadness or 365 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:49.719 or depression. Even just for outpatient therapy, the uh, the demand can 366 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:55.960 so far exceed the supply of therapists or of agencies that provide those services, 367 00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:04.559 that that some times people are left waiting many weeks or months. And that's 368 00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:10.079 assuming that they have the insurance coverage necessary to pay for it, or they 369 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:15.559 can afford to pay out of pocket. Because qualities, you know, you 370 00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:20.239 get what you pay for to such an extent, you know, these services 371 00:36:20.280 --> 00:36:27.679 simply are not are not inexpensive. And unless and until there's enough will to 372 00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:34.199 provide funding compared to other priorities, you know, related to what Congress believes 373 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:39.159 is important, there's no reason to think that this is going to change significantly. 374 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:45.119 Unfortunately. Yeah, we want to take a break when we come back. 375 00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:47.679 I want your feelings. We had a great guest last week, a 376 00:36:47.719 --> 00:36:52.159 gentlemen who grew up on the West Bank in the West Bank and gave us 377 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:58.599 an interesting perspective there, Cada Harmani, and he mentioned something about the victim 378 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:04.480 mentality for both Palestinian and Jews. I want to learn more about that, 379 00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:10.159 what that means in context also, and what war can do to a whole 380 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:15.599 generation of people that grow up under those circumstances. I think it's something that 381 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:20.599 bears discussion. So we'll get to that when we get back from the commercial. 382 00:37:22.159 --> 00:37:24.440 So we're going to take a quick break. My very special guest for 383 00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:30.039 Mental Health Awareness Month is Danny Major, and we're back with more being Frank 384 00:37:30.119 --> 00:37:34.079 right after these brief commercial messages. 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Check out The angel Quest Show on Apple Podcasts, iHeart, 394 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:36.599 Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hudsonriverradio dot com. Welcome back 395 00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:40.280 to Being Frank, the Intelligent Conversation podcast. Thanks for sticking with us. 396 00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:44.840 I'm your host, Frank Lebono. You know we bring our audience a fresh 397 00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:49.960 topic every week, premiering easually on Thursday nights. We stream from Hudson River 398 00:38:50.079 --> 00:38:52.679 Radio, which is located in beautiful and historic Stony Point, New York. 399 00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:59.320 Neil Richter the as our engineer. But you know you can catch Being Frank 400 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:02.960 anywhere get your favorite podcasts, that includes Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, and 401 00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:07.840 all the others. And because every Being Frank is archived, you can listen 402 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:12.079 to any of our programs anytime you like. You can find a link to 403 00:39:12.119 --> 00:39:16.599 Being Frank on the Hudson River Radio Facebook page or at our website Hudson Riverradio 404 00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:21.280 dot com. Just click on my icon and you're there, leave as a 405 00:39:21.280 --> 00:39:24.400 comment and please consider subscribing to the podcast, and if you really like us, 406 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:30.320 share Being Frank with your family and friends. May is Mental Health Awareness 407 00:39:30.360 --> 00:39:36.079 Month, and my very special guest is my friend, best selling author Danny 408 00:39:36.119 --> 00:39:38.920 Major. Before we went to the break, I tease a little bit. 409 00:39:38.960 --> 00:39:44.440 I had a great guest on last week, Nikader Hamadi, who grew up 410 00:39:44.440 --> 00:39:47.039 in the West Bank, and in part of our conversation he mentioned something about 411 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:52.239 a victim's mentality. He said, both Palestinians have it because of their experiences, 412 00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:59.079 but he also felt like as particularly Israeli Jews also suffered from victim mentality 413 00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:01.519 and Jews in general from the Holocaust, et cetera. Can you explain a 414 00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:07.599 little bit about what that means in context of what we might be experiencing in 415 00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:16.519 Gaza right now. Well, the the socio political stuff gets extremely complicated, 416 00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:24.559 Frank. I mean, from a psychological perspective, a victim mentality simply relates 417 00:40:24.760 --> 00:40:34.840 to perceiving oneself as a victim. And and I mean there there are reality 418 00:40:34.880 --> 00:40:45.400 based situations in which everyone can experience being a victim, being taken advantage of, 419 00:40:45.480 --> 00:40:52.920 exploited, treated, unfairly treated, poorly, you know, in all 420 00:40:52.039 --> 00:41:01.119 sorts of different ways. Victim mentality is a particular, more enduring perspective that 421 00:41:01.719 --> 00:41:07.920 morphs into kind of a personality trait where, no matter what the circumstances may 422 00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:15.480 be, the person sees them sees themselves as being treated unfairly, as getting 423 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:21.480 the short end of the stick, and that that's yeah always and and uh 424 00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:29.960 and and and One of the indicators that a person is stuck in that perspective 425 00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:40.280 is when someone provides a contrary way of looking at things such that that it 426 00:41:40.400 --> 00:41:50.119 makes clear that that their sense of victimization doesn't have much to it in a 427 00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:57.400 reality based way. Rather than really acknowledging that directly, they are much more 428 00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:06.119 likely to shift sin aimlessly to a different situation in which they perceive themselves as 429 00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:12.719 being victimized treated unfairly. Uh and and and and and so forth. And 430 00:42:13.199 --> 00:42:16.480 you know, it's it has to do with their view of the world, 431 00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:22.760 with their sense of themselves, and they get they get attached to it. 432 00:42:22.760 --> 00:42:28.960 It becomes part of their identity and embedded in in who they are and how 433 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.159 they are, and and that gets, you know, it gets very difficult 434 00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:37.920 to do anything with uh and in part it's they get a certain degree of 435 00:42:37.960 --> 00:42:43.119 gratification out of it. There's you know this, there's a self righteousness to 436 00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:46.480 it. So they get they get attention with as a result of it, 437 00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:54.119 and and various secondary games. You know, in terms in terms of of 438 00:42:54.239 --> 00:43:01.119 what's happening in Israel, in the West Bank and Gaza, you know, 439 00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:12.159 that's that's where that's where reality and the psychological combine to create such a powerful 440 00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:17.719 and pernicious dynamic. You know, in terms of in terms of Jews, 441 00:43:19.320 --> 00:43:27.280 anti Semitism is the is the longest standing form of discrimination and bias in the 442 00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.199 history of the world. There is no question about that. And you know, 443 00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:36.679 one of the things that's happened is that and and the government of Israel 444 00:43:37.159 --> 00:43:43.119 has has has I mean what this wouldn't have happened if Hamas didn't do what 445 00:43:43.159 --> 00:43:50.800 they did on October seventh, So that that precipitated the current conflagration. Regardless 446 00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:55.320 of how you see or how how you saw the relationship of Israel and the 447 00:43:55.320 --> 00:44:00.840 Palestinians to each other prior to this, if I might, oh, I'm 448 00:44:00.840 --> 00:44:05.400 sorry, because it's perfect. I just might jump in because it's it's burning 449 00:44:05.400 --> 00:44:09.440 it because I think it's so pertinent. I haven't written down with all that 450 00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:15.119 in mind, and you've set it up beautifully. How does one balance so 451 00:44:15.239 --> 00:44:20.760 called righteous anger with compassion? I mean, people say Israel has a right 452 00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:24.119 to protect itself. What happened on October seventh was et cetera, et cetera. 453 00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:31.159 So there's a certain level of righteous anger there, but the toll extracted 454 00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:37.320 for that has been extreme and severe, with many, many innocent people suffering, 455 00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:42.239 including children. So how do you balance something that has been simmering and 456 00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:46.360 as you mentioned, so many factors geopolitical, been simmering so long. How 457 00:44:46.400 --> 00:44:51.320 do you strike that balance of we have to protect ourselves and we have to 458 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:54.079 be strong in doing so, and sending a message that this can never happen 459 00:44:54.119 --> 00:45:00.480 again one of the slogans never again. Yet at the same time level of 460 00:45:00.519 --> 00:45:05.440 compassion so that fifteen thousand children are not killed. How do we do that? 461 00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:08.719 I think a lot of people actually do do that. Frank you know, 462 00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:15.599 some people get caught up in this completely US versus them sort of dichotomy, 463 00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:22.320 whether they're on the side of Israelian Jews more generally or the Palestinians, 464 00:45:22.760 --> 00:45:31.599 and the ways in which they have been arguably oppressed over the course of decades. 465 00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:36.800 You know, by the way, the other Arab countries like to talk 466 00:45:36.840 --> 00:45:42.119 a really good game in terms of the ways in which the Palestinians are oppressed, 467 00:45:42.360 --> 00:45:47.599 but they do virtually nothing to assist in any sort of meaningful or material 468 00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:58.280 way themselves. So arguably the Palestinians' plight and continued deprivation and desperation serves a 469 00:45:58.280 --> 00:46:02.119 certain purpose within within the Arab world now. But I think there are a 470 00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:07.880 great many people, myself included, who on the one hand, are very 471 00:46:07.000 --> 00:46:15.320 sensitive to the forms that anti Semitism can take, including re emerging. And 472 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:22.760 there's a fine line between being pro Palestinian in terms of what's happening in Gaza 473 00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:28.000 right now and anti Semitic. But I think, but I think a lot 474 00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:34.159 of people are, you know, they they are horrified by what Hamas did 475 00:46:34.199 --> 00:46:38.400 on October seventh, and you know, absolutely believe that a certain powerful, 476 00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:46.199 significant response is it was indicated and is appropriate, but that there's been too 477 00:46:46.239 --> 00:46:53.079 much and too many, too many innocent civilians, including children, have been 478 00:46:53.760 --> 00:47:00.800 injured, killed, subject to you know, these horrific spirit conditions. It 479 00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:05.559 doesn't it's not, it doesn't have to be either or I think it can 480 00:47:05.599 --> 00:47:12.440 be both. And you know, and and unfortunately it's it's compounded. It's 481 00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:22.800 it's compounded by by significant political and political slash survival issues on both sides of 482 00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:28.199 defence, where you know, there are good arguments that netnyahu Is is taking 483 00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:35.480 the approach that he is because his political survival is at stake. If at 484 00:47:35.519 --> 00:47:39.719 the point at which he is no longer Prime Minister, which could happen as 485 00:47:39.760 --> 00:47:46.440 soon as hostilities cease based on what's been happening in Israel over the last several 486 00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:52.480 months, he is subject to ongoing charges of corruption and could not only lose 487 00:47:52.519 --> 00:47:57.000 his position at Prime Minister, he could end up in jail. So he's 488 00:47:57.039 --> 00:48:05.599 doing everything he can to avoid that and arguably using the situation in the service 489 00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:12.320 of that. On the other hand, it's well known that Hamas uses the 490 00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:21.880 civilian populace of Gaza and Palestinians as human shields and does everything possible to avoid 491 00:48:22.519 --> 00:48:30.199 fighting military conflicts in a more direct way because their strategy is to is to 492 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:36.920 use the civilian population for as much of a disguise and as much of a 493 00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:46.119 defense as possible, knowing that public opinion is going to be increasingly outraged as 494 00:48:46.239 --> 00:48:57.159 civilian deaths and devastation increase progressively, and those are these are at this particular 495 00:48:57.239 --> 00:49:05.320 moment fairly intractable dynamics, as horrible as they are. But this is woven 496 00:49:05.360 --> 00:49:12.280 into the fabric of this of this situation, making it horribly complicated right now. 497 00:49:12.440 --> 00:49:14.920 You know, when we talk about a mindset and obvious this is what 498 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:19.960 it's a mental health awareness. And what concerns me is the mindset. We 499 00:49:20.000 --> 00:49:24.280 talked about the victim mentality and righteous rage, and it's been said certainly at 500 00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:28.840 this point, and I think the point that I'm trying to make in terms 501 00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:36.119 of mental health is that at this point for every terrorist eliminated, five more 502 00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:40.119 are created in the mind in the mindset of young people who have only experienced 503 00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:45.840 hatred, deprivation, degradation, et cetera. It's so hard for people, 504 00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:52.000 it will be for this next generation to grow up quote unquote normally. I 505 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:55.639 can imagine the amount of work that would have to be done in a situation 506 00:49:55.840 --> 00:50:00.719 like that to make people healthy again. And not only talking physically, you're 507 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:05.440 talking about food, but but as we mentioned, both spiritually and emotionally at 508 00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:12.000 the same time, well and and you know, the more the more people's 509 00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:19.840 material you know, basic fundamental legitimate material needs go unmet. You know, 510 00:50:19.960 --> 00:50:27.880 the the hungrier people are, the more unhoused they are, the you know, 511 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:34.880 the the more vulnerable they are to the elements and to to disease and 512 00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:38.199 too and to injury. The worse their mental health is going to be. 513 00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:43.840 Mental mental health is you know, is you know, and doing doing the 514 00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:52.000 things that that quality mental health requires become much more difficult and at a certain 515 00:50:52.039 --> 00:51:00.199 point relatively impossible under circumstances of you know, as as you as you described 516 00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:07.639 it, gross deprivation and degradation, you know, fear, fear for one 517 00:51:07.840 --> 00:51:14.320 survival, fear for the survival of ones of one's children, you know, 518 00:51:15.320 --> 00:51:22.000 everything, but survival goes out the window in those kinds of circumstances. And 519 00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:29.679 and in fact, and in those circumstances, the one emotion which can be 520 00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:38.559 motivating and mobilizing is anger because because for for many people, the alternative is 521 00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:46.159 helplessness and hopelessness. And that's, you know, it's it's it's absolutely a 522 00:51:46.320 --> 00:51:52.760 double binding, no win situation. Let's try and end on a little bit 523 00:51:52.760 --> 00:51:57.800 of a higher note. Yeah, I was, well, yeah, anyway, 524 00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:04.599 interestingly to it mentioned to Cotter my guest last week too, and his 525 00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:07.360 experience. He came to this country a little over thirty years ago and one 526 00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:12.719 of his early experiences with was with the Grateful Dead. And I know you're 527 00:52:12.719 --> 00:52:15.360 a dead head and I've seen hundreds of shows all over all over the country, 528 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:21.679 if not the world, But you mentioned the camaraderie that it's it's it's 529 00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:25.559 it's more than just a show. It's happening, and how healthy that can 530 00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:30.400 be for people. It's an experience. He kind of saw it in a 531 00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:37.119 sense, kind of the best of what America could be. Peaceful people sharing 532 00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:43.280 a peaceful time in music. Your feelings on that, Oh, absolutely, 533 00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:46.920 I mean you know, in fact, Frank, that's one way in which 534 00:52:47.400 --> 00:52:53.840 in which social media and that and the connections it can facilitate can be can 535 00:52:53.880 --> 00:53:01.519 be wonderfully healthy. So so, for example, my wife and I are 536 00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:10.920 are members of various Grateful Dead related Facebook groups, and in part through these 537 00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:16.440 groups, we have met people all from all over the country and we got 538 00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:22.280 to know them a little bit online and then we would meet them in person 539 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:25.800 at different concerts that we would go to in different parts of the country. 540 00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:30.119 California, New York. And you know now Dead and Company, which is 541 00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:35.960 the current incarnation of the Grateful Dead with two original members. They're doing this 542 00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:42.719 twenty four show run at the Sphere, the state of the art indoor venue 543 00:53:43.599 --> 00:53:49.039 in Las Vegas. And so so, you know, we're in contact with 544 00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:53.119 each other via Facebook and and now you know, text and email depending upon 545 00:53:54.199 --> 00:54:00.320 how close the relationships are, and then we make arrangements to see one another 546 00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:07.320 and to get together and it has a feel of a joyous reunion every time 547 00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:10.719 we do this. And you know, similar to the twelve Step fellowships and 548 00:54:12.119 --> 00:54:20.639 community. You know, it's it's based on shared lived experience and and common 549 00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:29.360 common interests and the and the joy that that comes about as a result of 550 00:54:30.079 --> 00:54:37.639 what what the music evokes, you know, emotionally, physically, spiritually, 551 00:54:37.719 --> 00:54:43.280 a sense of connection with that with that beyond self for example. And by 552 00:54:43.320 --> 00:54:51.960 the way, the Grateful Dead community and the recovery community have very significant interfaces. 553 00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:57.519 And so so you know, I I know people in my recovery community 554 00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:00.280 who are part of the Grateful Dead community. And you know, sometimes I 555 00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:06.480 met them first related to recovery, sometimes first through the Grateful Dead. But 556 00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:15.079 there's this incredibly cool cross pollination that takes place well, you know, Dan. 557 00:55:15.559 --> 00:55:19.239 We want to thank you as always for your intelligent conversation here on Being 558 00:55:19.239 --> 00:55:22.480 Frank. I could talk to you for hours and days, and we'll do 559 00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:27.920 it again. That sounds good, Frank, I look forward to it. 560 00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:31.000 It's always a pleasure to be here with you. Of course, we offer 561 00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:35.320 special thanks to our listeners who take time to give us a voice in their 562 00:55:35.320 --> 00:55:38.840 lives. That's very important and we're grateful. Remember we offer fresh topic every 563 00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:44.159 week. We work hard in bringing you breaking topical news every week. You 564 00:55:44.199 --> 00:55:49.199 can catch us wherever and whenever you get your favorite podcasts remember Apple, Spotify, 565 00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:52.719 iHeartRadio, all the rest. You can also check us out on the 566 00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:57.079 Hudson River Radio Facebook page leave us a comment. We also ask you to 567 00:55:57.119 --> 00:56:00.559 consider sharing Being Frank with others. As usual. As to close the show, 568 00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:04.760 I'll leave you with two last little nuggets. One is a slogan and 569 00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:07.280 then some music. And I think everyone will appreciate this. I try to 570 00:56:07.360 --> 00:56:12.920 choose something that's appropriate to our conversation. This comes from one of my favorites, 571 00:56:13.239 --> 00:56:17.440 Marcus Aurelius and his meditations, who said you have power over your mind 572 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:23.960 not outside events. Realize this and you will find strength pretty simple and to 573 00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:29.480 the point, and I think very apropos to our discussion. We've got some 574 00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:34.239 great music coming up. That's Bobby Deblasio, my friend, with vocals by 575 00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:38.679 Stephan Marsalis, a song called like You Do for our engineer Neil Richter the 576 00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:42.639 Mailman. I'm your host, Frank Lobono, and we hope to have you 577 00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:45.519 join us on the next being Frank, We're the only way to be is 578 00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:55.480 Frank. Thanks everyone. I was a poor look at everything inside. I 579 00:56:55.760 --> 00:57:05.199 was a drift and lives through her. I was a self don and the 580 00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:16.280 never cold side. Then I faltered, and then I was a dreamer. 581 00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:25.320 You could never get to sleep. I was a climber, show every mountain 582 00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:32.159 to steak. I was a floater. You got in a little too. 583 00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:55.079 And then I faltered and then the minihopy sells somewhere minnihppy. What when I 584 00:57:55.320 --> 00:58:15.519 just showed me on the way than I was cobbled, never had I was 585 00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:24.559 the next port. I'm blowing on little metals, but I'm never fail me 586 00:58:28.519 --> 00:58:47.679 there fat and up there, maybe I shall maybe, boy, but I 587 00:58:47.880 --> 00:59:07.840 consume me away. Shouldn't give me what was that thing that sent away under 588 00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:23.239 his soul of food? And I always see the cat love without my bus 589 00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:35.400 on the rules and there was a crosser and a never change and the ants. 590 00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:43.360 I just could not cast that to a line with the bar will leave 591 00:59:43.639 --> 01:00:07.239 the gods now the faults and out fair really out ell Mary love who I 592 01:00:07.280 --> 01:00:34.519 were a person, but all love you love you love who like a person? 593 01:00:36.400 --> 01:01:10.159 All you love love you you love me Hudson River Radio dot com. Mm hmm