1 00:00:03,399 --> 00:00:07,879 The energy sector has probably one of the biggest areas that you could bring to 2 00:00:07,919 --> 00:00:11,720 the gen z of saying like you're bringing so much value to not just this 3 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:15,000 company, but honestly, to the end of the day, to the United 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:25,960 States when you come here and work with us. Welcome everyone to the Industrial 5 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,120 Security Podcast. My name is Nate Nelson. I'm here with Andrew Ginter, 6 00:00:30,359 --> 00:00:35,840 the vice president of Industrial Security at Waterfall Security Solutions, who's going to introduce 7 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,799 the subject and guest of our show today. Andrew, how's it going. 8 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,119 I'm very well. Thank you, Nate. We have two guests today. 9 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:51,320 Amanda Thiel is the Workforce Development Group lead at Argone National Laboratory and Eddie Mullins 10 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,479 is the project coordinator at Argone National Laboratory. And they're going to be talking 11 00:00:55,479 --> 00:01:00,520 about jobs. The official title here is Deep Mystifying Cyber Job. You know, 12 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,240 they're focused on the energy sector, but you know, it seems to 13 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,400 me that a lot of what they say applies to all industries, you know, 14 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,480 especially you know, since we're talking about jobs and recruiting, and you 15 00:01:11,519 --> 00:01:19,480 know, people complain, the employers complain that nobody's applying to ot cybersecurity job 16 00:01:19,519 --> 00:01:23,599 postings and the you know, the the people looking for jobs are complaining there 17 00:01:23,599 --> 00:01:26,719 are no postings, they can't find them. So in a sense, both 18 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:30,719 of these are the same problem, and this is what Amanda and Eddie are 19 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,680 going to be talking to us about. All right, then, without further 20 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:38,599 Ado, here's your interview with Amanda and en Eddie. Hello, Amanda, 21 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:44,400 Hello Eddie, thank you for joining us. Before we get started, could 22 00:01:44,439 --> 00:01:47,640 you, maybe, you know, give our listeners a few words about yourselves 23 00:01:47,879 --> 00:01:52,920 and about the good work that you're doing on the the Cyberforce project at Argone 24 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,959 National Labs. Sure. I'm Amanda feel I'm the Workforce Development Group lead at 25 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:04,879 ARGON National Average Story and I lead the Cyberforce Program out of the Department of 26 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:10,520 Energies, Office of Cybersecurity, Energy Security and Emergency Response. And I'm Eddie 27 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,199 Mullins. I am the project coordinator at the Outgo National Laboratory and I work 28 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:22,759 closely with AMANDAI I assist in managing the Cyberforce program. And the Cyberforce Program 29 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:29,879 is the collegiate workforce development effort out of the Department of Energy that looks at 30 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:38,759 providing students that operational technology component of understanding how to get themselves into that energy 31 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:45,599 sector job right after they get out of college. Okay, so thanks for 32 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:51,879 that. So you know, in my understanding, Cyberforce is training you know, 33 00:02:52,479 --> 00:03:00,879 young folk to enter the cybersecurity roles in the energy sector. And you 34 00:03:00,879 --> 00:03:05,639 know you I heard you folks speak at at the energy set conference recently. 35 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,919 You've been running into challenges getting your graduates placed. Can you can you talk 36 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,800 about you know, some of these some of these challenges. What's what are 37 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:23,919 you running into here? Sure? So, the Cyberforce program hosts a handful 38 00:03:24,159 --> 00:03:32,080 of competitions and exercises for collegiate students to kind of better prepare themselves with cybersecurity 39 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:39,319 skills and operational technology knowledge. But what we've come to really understand is that 40 00:03:39,479 --> 00:03:46,159 the terminology that a lot of these students learn at school and their colleges, 41 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:51,759 universities, even in their quick programs that they take their boot camps, don't 42 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:58,680 necessarily translate into the jobs that they're looking at online. And what I mean 43 00:03:58,719 --> 00:04:03,360 by that is that term anology that we would necessarily think in a traditional cybersecurity 44 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:11,199 or cyber engineer that they're looking for in a job doesn't necessarily translate directly in 45 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,080 a one to one, when we get into the energy sector, they use 46 00:04:15,199 --> 00:04:21,360 slightly different terminology. And so these brand new people are students or folks that 47 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:30,519 are looking to go into the job market, they're not fully understanding that there's 48 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,199 a different vocabulary that's out there, and so trying to get them to really 49 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:42,160 understand that they have to be look fully into a job description as well as 50 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,319 understanding that their job role is not going to just be cyber when they get 51 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,120 into an energy sector job. Yeah. And also one of the other things 52 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,920 that that we notice, you know, is we looked at generation and the 53 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:59,480 way that the modern generation that's getting into the workforce now, the way they 54 00:04:59,519 --> 00:05:03,560 look at the workforce is completely different than what if like a Gen X or 55 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,439 a baby boomer, you know, the millennials of the Gen z's, when 56 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:12,720 they're reading these job descriptions, there's a lot more than just the totality of 57 00:05:12,759 --> 00:05:15,720 what it is that they're going to be doing that they're looking for is you 58 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:18,439 know, they're focusing so much on what is the general experience of and how 59 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:23,279 does this job and the experience that it's describing to me, how does it 60 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,199 fit into my life? You know, like our parents when they were in 61 00:05:26,439 --> 00:05:30,160 the workforce, it was how do we fit to the workforce. Now it's 62 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,000 kind of like how does the workforce fit for us? So, you know, 63 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:35,439 we're seeing that some of these descriptions and the way that they're written in 64 00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:39,839 the energy sector has been they've been utilized for, you know, quite some 65 00:05:39,879 --> 00:05:44,759 time, and they're a little bit outdated to some of the modern tactics and 66 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:49,680 the modern ideals that you know, a current generation student would be looking for 67 00:05:49,879 --> 00:05:57,199 and appealing to apply. Andrew seems to me that what you guys are talking 68 00:05:57,199 --> 00:06:01,279 about here, it's a it's a common refrain, maybe within industrial security, 69 00:06:01,319 --> 00:06:04,600 but also in just about any line of work. You know, you go 70 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:10,639 to school for all these years, you learn calculus, and then you get 71 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,079 out into the real world and you don't know how to do your taxes. 72 00:06:13,439 --> 00:06:18,920 Is there anything unique about how we're applying this to industrial security this problem? 73 00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:21,439 I don't think so. I mean, I think it's a it's a it's 74 00:06:21,439 --> 00:06:26,959 a widespread problem. The specific data points that Amanda and Eddie have are are 75 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,279 in the energy sector. That's that's what they do. But yeah, I 76 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,879 see a lot of similarities across industries, you know, and it's it's not 77 00:06:32,959 --> 00:06:39,319 just across industries, it's across uh you know time. I mean, I'm 78 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,839 coming up on the end of my career now, but I remember, you 79 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:46,160 know, before I started, when I graduated high school, I was going 80 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,639 to do a sciences degree at the University of Calgary. I show up at 81 00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:53,160 the university and I know that to do a sciences degree you've got to take 82 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,959 first year calculus. And I had taken high school calculus. And the university 83 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:00,560 head of program saying, look, if you've taken high school calculus, you 84 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:02,560 can do a challenge exam. If you ace the challenge exam, you don't 85 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:08,759 have to do the first semester of university calculus. So you know, I'm 86 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:10,959 full of myself. I I say, you know, I got an I 87 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,040 got an A in high school calculus. I should be able to do this. 88 00:07:14,399 --> 00:07:15,759 I show up for the challenge exam, and you know, they put 89 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,759 the exam paper down in front of me, and I don't understand even one 90 00:07:20,839 --> 00:07:24,480 question. Your name goes here. I understood that part. The rest of 91 00:07:24,519 --> 00:07:28,920 it, no idea, you know. Five minutes later, studying these questions, 92 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,079 I get up, I hand the paper and I leave. I show 93 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:36,639 up for the calculus course, you know, two lectures in I figure out 94 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,879 that they're teaching exactly the same thing that I learned in high school, only 95 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,519 they're using a different notation. And so I looked at these questions and didn't 96 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,839 understand and one of them so terminology notation, you know, this is stuff 97 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,040 that you know, there's there's gaps, you know in this industry, there's 98 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,759 gaps in other industries, there's gaps over time. This is I think this 99 00:07:58,839 --> 00:08:03,600 is a very common problem. Okay, so you know that sounds like a 100 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,839 couple of different problems. Can we can we hit terminology first? Can you 101 00:08:07,879 --> 00:08:11,319 give us some examples what what you know? What are the what are the 102 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,600 gaps that that students are seeing versus you know, the the industry is using 103 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,639 in a lot of positions, we'll say in the energy sector. They tend 104 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:28,399 to look a lot as in a generic post on either an operational security analyst 105 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:37,039 or operational security engineer. And when they look at those things, they tend 106 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:43,200 to think of it as operational meaning less on the cyber side, or it's 107 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:50,200 written more in a sense of it sounds like a help desk roll rather than 108 00:08:50,279 --> 00:08:58,320 them actually working on the cyber side, and it tends to be we'll use 109 00:08:58,320 --> 00:09:03,279 the word less flashy for them. So when we think through cyber, they're 110 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,320 looking for firewalls and they're looking for the fact that they're going to be building 111 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:13,399 a secure back end. And part of that problem is, and again it's 112 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:20,279 the knowledge that some of these students lack and just the general critical infrastructure field 113 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:28,200 is that energy sector specifically has been around for obviously so long that our infrastructure 114 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:33,039 has been there and it's not changing. So a lot of what we need 115 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:41,320 security wise is understanding both and a physical type as well as the IT that 116 00:09:41,399 --> 00:09:46,519 goes with it. But it's not just cyber. It's having a multi hat 117 00:09:46,519 --> 00:09:56,879 wearing person that understands both an IT infrastructure but also an operational infrastructure, which 118 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:03,399 is keeping the grid up and running. But we can't just keep the grid 119 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:09,200 up and running by updating and putting updates in place or a firewall, and 120 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:16,039 so they're looking for those things of I'm gonna be managing patching, keeping the 121 00:10:16,159 --> 00:10:22,000 lights on for things, and it's not as clear as day for these students, 122 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,159 and so when they don't see that in a job posting or even a 123 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:31,600 job title, it tends to be less clear for them. If that's actually 124 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,360 what they're going to be doing or not. But when we talk to these 125 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:41,320 organizations, that's ultimately what they'd be doing on some portions of their job, 126 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:46,080 and other portions we'd need them to really kind of help understand what's the next 127 00:10:46,919 --> 00:10:52,279 thing look like for this company, what's the next generation of energy look like? 128 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:56,679 In securing it? And part of that is still trying to figure out 129 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,799 how what are we calling things? What are we doing and working through some 130 00:11:00,879 --> 00:11:07,600 of that. You also mentioned sort of generational challenges. It's one thing to 131 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:09,559 look at a job posting and say, yes, this is the kind of 132 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,240 thing I've been trained for, but it's it's another thing to look at it 133 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:16,320 and say this is what I've been trained for, and yes, this is 134 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,960 what I want to do. It sounded like you were saying that sort of 135 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,279 a lot of the postings that you see out there are sort of recycling language 136 00:11:26,279 --> 00:11:31,120 from ten years ago and really are not appealing to the young people that you 137 00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:35,919 know the posting is targeting. Can you talk about about that what you know, 138 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:41,320 what what needs to be in these postings and you know, is it 139 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,200 just the postings or does the nature of the job have to change somehow in 140 00:11:46,279 --> 00:11:52,399 order to attract this generation of workers. Yeah, I think it's it's it's 141 00:11:52,399 --> 00:11:56,879 a little bit of both both, not just the language within the posting, 142 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:01,120 and you know, also what is the experience that come with it? I 143 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,799 mean we all know, like after twenty twenty, you know, in the 144 00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:07,120 modern generation, one of the biggest things that you know, they look for 145 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:09,120 is flexibility. You know, if you look at the Baby Boomers, the 146 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:18,399 gen X, like telecommuting never existed. It wasn't an expected expectation of work, 147 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,759 where now it's it's almost a demanded expectation of work. And it doesn't 148 00:12:22,799 --> 00:12:26,039 have to do which is telecommuting or hybrid work. It's just the flexibility of 149 00:12:26,159 --> 00:12:30,320 hours of scheduling. You know, we all we all grew up with the 150 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:35,960 standard nine to five that that's almost kind of going into the older generation where 151 00:12:35,039 --> 00:12:39,480 it doesn't exist. Now, you know, the modern generation is looking to 152 00:12:39,039 --> 00:12:43,159 be flexible on how it is that they can work, what hours do they 153 00:12:43,159 --> 00:12:48,440 work best at, And those are some of the things that are simply to 154 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:54,320 add to a job description that can already emphasize what the job experience would be 155 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,360 like. You know, when they look at as soon as they start seeing 156 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,039 that nine to five. Yeah, like a man mentioned earlier, it just 157 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,639 it doesn't sound sexy. It's not appealing. And when you talk about the 158 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:09,120 energy sector automatically, when you think of energy, you think the line workers, 159 00:13:09,159 --> 00:13:13,480 the boots on ground, where the sector in itself is already doesn't have 160 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:18,519 those appealing factors that would be working for a Google and Amazon, those big 161 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:24,240 tech companies. So that's how you modernize the positions and the descriptions to provide 162 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,120 a little bit of emphasis on the benefits of life. We all know that 163 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,559 working for the energy sector has its own benefits, and sometimes we the energy 164 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:39,759 sector kind of fails to emphasize those benefits of the consistency of work, those 165 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,679 kind of things. So it's a little bit of both when it comes to 166 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,240 just the terminology as well as the flexibility of what they're looking for. And 167 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:54,320 we want to say is we're not emphasizing that job posting should be unrealistic either. 168 00:13:56,279 --> 00:13:58,480 At the end of the day, like we understand that there's always going 169 00:13:58,519 --> 00:14:03,159 to be jobs that just there's not much you can change and a job posting 170 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:09,960 to make it sound any better. But when we start looking at the generational 171 00:14:09,039 --> 00:14:16,120 differences between each generation and how potentially one looks similar to another, but then 172 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,559 what are their differences. You start to kind of notice, just in the 173 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:26,159 workforce alone, what does each generation really value. And at the end of 174 00:14:26,159 --> 00:14:31,679 the day, we look at job postings and they tend to be written a 175 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:37,919 lot for the Baby Boomers, those that really they were wanting a job and 176 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,720 it really didn't I don't want say it didn't matter what the job was, 177 00:14:39,759 --> 00:14:46,120 but they were very they wanted to get in the door. They preferred structured 178 00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:48,759 organization at the end of the day, and so you see a lot of 179 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:54,399 positions written that way. When you look at the gen X, they started 180 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:58,000 to be more flexible in wanting to really be able to see the ability to 181 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,919 change as an opportunity grew, and so being able to be able to see 182 00:15:03,919 --> 00:15:09,600 the edibility to grow within an organization started to occur. But then you get 183 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,600 to the Millennials, and again, as Eddie pointed out, when they started 184 00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:18,519 to join the workforce, COVID hit shortly in the mix of it and work 185 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:24,440 from home started. But equally, Millennials tend to be very money driven. 186 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,840 So at the end of the day, when you do a job posting for 187 00:15:28,879 --> 00:15:33,679 them, they're very much wanting to know what is the dollar range that they're 188 00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:39,080 going to be hired within. I'm again not stating that that's a good or 189 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,360 a bad thing, but they kind of have an expectation up front of understanding 190 00:15:43,519 --> 00:15:48,480 where their lifestyle is within their kind of domain. And then you see gen 191 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,759 Z, which is kind of on almost a polar opposite spectrum. Again not 192 00:15:52,879 --> 00:15:56,960 saying that they're not interested in the dollar value, but they're really more interested 193 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:03,759 in understanding like how do they bring value to your company but also bring value 194 00:16:03,799 --> 00:16:07,080 to their life. They want to make a difference, and that's a really 195 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:11,360 hard way that you need to think, how can I write our job description 196 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:18,120 to show someone the value that they bring to a bigger picture at the end 197 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:22,840 of the day, And honestly, the energy sector has probably one of the 198 00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:26,480 biggest areas that you could bring to the gen Z of saying like you're bringing 199 00:16:26,519 --> 00:16:30,679 so much value to not just this company, but honestly, to the end 200 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,399 of the day, to the United States when you come here and work with 201 00:16:34,519 --> 00:16:38,360 us, and to Eddie's point, like energy brings stability when we think, 202 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,720 right, just this last year, you know, we've had a lot of 203 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:45,720 those big tech companies having quite a bit of layoffs, and so when you 204 00:16:45,759 --> 00:16:51,519 think through energy sector companies the like, you know you have more stability there. 205 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,279 It may not be as flashy of a salary, but you have stability 206 00:16:56,360 --> 00:17:00,879 and you have something that brings value back to you. I'm actually bringing power 207 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,799 electricity something back to either my own house or to people that I know. 208 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:14,279 The latest numbers in the twenty twenty three Threat Report on OT cyber incidents show 209 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,880 that the threat environment has changed fundamentally. At the beginning of this decade, 210 00:17:18,279 --> 00:17:25,160 OT cyber attacks with physical consequences have changed from a theoretical problem to a very 211 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,799 real problem, more than doubling every year. The new report is focused on 212 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,440 deliberate cyber attacks in the public record. These are attacks that cause physical consequences 213 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:40,519 and process industries and discrete manufacturing. Most of these attacks are ransomware, though 214 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:45,640 the fraction of activist attacks is growing, and the report's appendix includes a complete 215 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,400 list of all cyber attacks since Stuck's Net that meet these criteria. To see 216 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,480 how today's OT cyber threat environment has changed, I invite you to download the 217 00:17:53,519 --> 00:18:00,039 report. A joint effort between Waterfall Security and the ICs Strive ot Incident pository. 218 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:06,799 You can download the report at Waterfall dash security dot com Slash twenty twenty 219 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:11,559 three dash Threat dash Report, or just go to the resources menu at the 220 00:18:11,559 --> 00:18:18,079 Waterfall Security site and click on white papers and ebooks. So I am a 221 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,319 millennial technically, but I'm only a few years off of gen Z, and 222 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:27,160 so I do feel the urge to defend them a bit here. I don't 223 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:33,480 think that what amandament is that gen Z is, you know, money hungry 224 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:38,680 or whatever it. Gen Z does put a focus on the salary numbers, 225 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:42,920 because I think that there's more of an idea of worker empowerment. You know 226 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:47,960 that you don't just go and work for a company and take whatever they give 227 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,559 you, but you you vet them to make sure that they're going to give 228 00:18:49,559 --> 00:18:53,279 you the experience and the compensation that you deserve up front. That's right. 229 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:57,519 I mean, you know, I have a daughter who's who's a millennial, 230 00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:03,119 and you know, I might use the word practical to me. You know, 231 00:19:03,279 --> 00:19:06,400 it's it's not just saying I want to know how much money I'm going 232 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,680 to get. It's it's a bigger picture of and what does that mean for 233 00:19:08,759 --> 00:19:11,480 my life? Where am I going to live. Do I have to drive 234 00:19:11,519 --> 00:19:15,480 into work? You know what? How does how does it effect? You 235 00:19:15,519 --> 00:19:19,559 know, sort of the big picture. And to me, it's, you 236 00:19:19,559 --> 00:19:26,160 know, it's more than than the generation with each generation. To me, 237 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,519 you've also got to look at well bluntly, how old is the generation and 238 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,000 what are they up to in a current posting. I mean, it's you 239 00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:37,559 know, to me, it's it's I see the mistake here. The mistake 240 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,359 is old guys like me put a job posting together that would appeal to me 241 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,640 when I was fresh out of school. Yeah, well, A, I'm 242 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,799 the wrong generation. B. I'm not fresh out of school. B. 243 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:49,880 You know, see a lot of these folks aren't fresh out of school either. 244 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,200 I remember, you know, when I was a young man, I 245 00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:59,279 bounced from job to job. The grasp was always greener. And then I 246 00:19:59,319 --> 00:20:03,599 had my first and the wife looks at me and says, you're done moving 247 00:20:03,599 --> 00:20:06,960 around, And I'm going that's for sure. And I got me a job. 248 00:20:07,039 --> 00:20:11,599 I settled down and I stayed there for fifteen years. Why Because I 249 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,640 had other fish to fry, Okay, I had I had other priorities in 250 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,599 life. I had other ways to spend my energy. If I had spare 251 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,119 energy, It went into the kids, it went into the home, it 252 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,319 went into the family, not you know, finding the grasses green our next 253 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,279 job. So you know, there's a lot of variables here. It's not 254 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,839 just a generation, but you know, where is that each generation at their 255 00:20:30,839 --> 00:20:33,400 point in life in this kind of age group that you're trying to appeal to, 256 00:20:34,039 --> 00:20:38,920 right, And of course the conditions in which people are looking for jobs 257 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,400 now are quite different. You know. I can imagine someone in say your 258 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:47,720 position, Andrew, who's been at the same company for fifteen years or longer 259 00:20:47,799 --> 00:20:52,279 than that, and then they post a job for maybe the kind of entry 260 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,640 level job that they started off with, and they have a salary number associated 261 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,759 with it that sounds quite good to them. But of course houses cost a 262 00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:06,319 lot more relative to average salaries these days than they did before, and so 263 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:10,400 it might seem like a lot to somebody of an older generation now to a 264 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:15,759 younger generation, you know, uh, doesn't quite go as far. Indeed, 265 00:21:15,839 --> 00:21:21,400 So a lot of variables to take into account. So that makes sense. 266 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:22,880 But you know, I want to I want to push back on sort 267 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,920 of I heard you use the word remote work saying that you know, there's 268 00:21:27,279 --> 00:21:32,079 a generation of young folks out there that entered the workforce, you know, 269 00:21:32,319 --> 00:21:36,440 during or shortly before the pandemic, that have become accustomed to remote work. 270 00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:41,079 Everyone's expecting remote work, you know. I have to push back on that. 271 00:21:41,799 --> 00:21:47,759 If you are a pipe fitter in you know, a power plant and 272 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:51,680 it's your job to you know, fix stuff that's broken, and you carry 273 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:56,000 a tool kit around all day, this is not something you can do remotely. 274 00:21:56,519 --> 00:21:59,359 You know. Is it really true that there's a whole generation of people 275 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,279 out there ex expecting to do remote work? And you know, to me, 276 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,279 that just doesn't seem possible. Can can you talk about that a bit 277 00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:11,240 more sure so you know you're right? That's it's definitely I think more what 278 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,839 I think Eddie and I were mentioning was more definitely towards the tech field, 279 00:22:17,759 --> 00:22:22,480 and I think it's a benefit of tech to be able to be remote. 280 00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:27,319 Most jobs require you to have your computer and internet line, and you know, 281 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,440 you should be able off to the races. Most of us figured that 282 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:37,079 one out again, unfortunately during a time in which we didn't really have many 283 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:42,160 options but to be at home. Other than less, your job was to 284 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:47,799 be in the office, which again not stating that some of these energy companies 285 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:55,480 did require someone to still be in the office. But the a lot of 286 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:03,200 we'll say entry level are folks looking to come into the job market. They 287 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:10,359 grew up in what was a remote environment, whether that was school, whether 288 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:17,480 that was a remote job, and so they see flexibility into them almost a 289 00:23:17,559 --> 00:23:22,119 negotiation factor of that ability to be able to work from home. And so 290 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:29,519 seeing the tech industry is one of those of the SEW and again, I 291 00:23:29,559 --> 00:23:33,440 think everyone looks at that it could be a systemic problem moving forward, and 292 00:23:33,519 --> 00:23:40,480 it could be a benefit dependent on where your organization is. That that is 293 00:23:40,519 --> 00:23:48,920 definitely something that we've noticed that the younger generations look for and find as a 294 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:55,839 means of want is their ability to work from I won't even say work from 295 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,880 home, but work from wherever they're at. Some of them it's they want 296 00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:03,759 to be on vacation three hundred and sixty five days a year, but work 297 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,039 from wherever that places. And some of them is they just really enjoy working 298 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:11,519 from home rather than being in an office. So they can work and you 299 00:24:11,519 --> 00:24:15,680 know, be at home in Alaska, but work for you know, a 300 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:21,480 company on the East coast, whatever makes most sense for them in a comfort 301 00:24:21,599 --> 00:24:26,480 environment. But I agree with you that no, not every industry and not 302 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:32,359 every person you know understands that that's something that you know is available to them. 303 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,680 I mean, it's kind of one of the appeals to come into the 304 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:38,400 tech industry. When you think you know the tech industry and you look at 305 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:42,240 California and states, you know, those those big states. Automatically, you 306 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:47,920 you assume two things, one flexibility and two you assume high salary. And 307 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,559 the flexibility, especially with Teleramote, is what will allow some companies to be 308 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,960 able to gain talent outside the scope of their their availability. You know, 309 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,400 if you look at rural Arkansas and you need a cyber operator in a rural 310 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:08,359 area, if you don't have that flexibility, you limit yourself on how far 311 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,359 can somebody be from the office. Are you gonna is somebody gonna be willing 312 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:18,200 to drive two hours to go into the office. Or if you allow the 313 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,519 tell a remote the hybrid option, you can get talent within outside the scope 314 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:29,880 of driving distance, which allows you to operate slightly more efficiently. So that's 315 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,720 that's that's that's what I was referring to when it comes to the flexibility in 316 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:40,319 the tech industry. That's kind of one of the benefits to it. On 317 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:45,640 this subject of remote work, I have some notion that there are jobs with 318 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:52,119 an industrial setting that that can be done remotely. You know, maybe a 319 00:25:52,279 --> 00:25:56,599 work yet a sock. But don't you need most people to be on premises? 320 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,480 Like what percentage of people are we talking about here with regards to who 321 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,200 The short answer is it depends. There isn't an easy number that springs to 322 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:14,440 mind. You know some of the dimensions of the problem. One is criticality. 323 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:22,119 If we're talking about, you know, managing small wind farms or small 324 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,079 solar farms, a lot of that's done remotely. Why Well, because the 325 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,880 worst case if you get something, if you if you get something horribly wrong, 326 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,599 what's the worst that can happen? The turbine turns off, the power 327 00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:38,680 stops coming out of three of your windmills. Does that affect the grid? 328 00:26:38,839 --> 00:26:41,960 Not? Really? Is even affect your bottom line? Well, it depends 329 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:45,319 how big a utility you are. If you only have three windmills, it's 330 00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:49,559 a big deal. If you have you know, seven hundred, nobody notices. 331 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,319 So on the other hand, you know, if you've got a large 332 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,960 power plant, that is you know, feeding hospitals, it's feeding the military 333 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:07,720 installations, it's you know, it's a really important asset. You've got I 334 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,839 don't know, a hydroelectric dam driving it, or you've got coal fired power 335 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:18,079 plant, you know, massive boilers and furnaces. There's more of a push 336 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:25,319 in the sort of the network engineering world to make that not so accessible remotely, 337 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,920 because all remote access is potentially a threat. It has to do with 338 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,359 the role as well. As you pointed out, there's a lot of you 339 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:40,039 know, if what you're doing is looking at stuff and drawing conclusions about it 340 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:45,400 and sending sort of abstract information back into into decision makers like your Your example 341 00:27:45,519 --> 00:27:49,440 is a good one. The outsourced security operations center. These people generally don't 342 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:55,640 have they're not trained as incident responders. Okay, they don't log into the 343 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,279 system and start poking around it. They're not trained to touch the systems, 344 00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:02,839 but they are trained to look at the alerts and you know, look at 345 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:08,160 circumstances and decide whether something merits a deeper investigation and then sort over the fence 346 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,200 with a lot of information to the incident response team. So the incident response 347 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,759 team might have to fly out to side, but you know, or might 348 00:28:15,799 --> 00:28:21,400 be hosted at the site, but not necessarily the people doing the analysis. 349 00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:26,640 So yeah, it's a long fancy way of saying it depends. Imagine though, 350 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,400 that we had a magic wand, and we waived the magic wand, 351 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,039 and all of a sudden, the job postings people were putting out. We're, 352 00:28:34,279 --> 00:28:38,000 you know, speaking to the aspects of the job that appeal the most 353 00:28:38,279 --> 00:28:45,240 to the you know, the current generation of entry level workers, and you 354 00:28:45,279 --> 00:28:51,880 know, magically, you know, use the terminology that that resonated, you 355 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,079 know, with the entry level workers saying, yes, this is what I 356 00:28:53,119 --> 00:28:56,240 was trained on, this is what I'm able to do if we fix those 357 00:28:56,279 --> 00:29:03,599 problems. Are we done now? Unfortunately, I don't think so just yet. 358 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,240 What we've also tended to find, and again I'm not nitpicking on the 359 00:29:08,359 --> 00:29:12,319 energy sector because I know that this is done in a lot of places, 360 00:29:14,359 --> 00:29:21,559 but we've found that there's a use of I'll use the word conglomerate job postings. 361 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,720 So what I mean by that is, if I'm looking for a software 362 00:29:25,759 --> 00:29:30,039 engineer, the job hosting will be posted as a software engineer one, two, 363 00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:38,079 three or senior. And while that seems very open to anyone to apply, 364 00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:47,680 the position itself is written for the senior level, So when you read 365 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:56,000 through a job description like that, it comes very unwelcoming to an entry level 366 00:29:56,319 --> 00:30:02,640 person looking to apply. It doesn't provide a very clear understanding of are you 367 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,119 looking for multiple software engineers? Are you looking for one? Am I, 368 00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:12,640 as an entry level person who's applying, going to be compared against potentially someone 369 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:19,279 who is a senior level? Am I going to even have the ability to 370 00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:23,599 apply? And when you look at the job descriptions, a lot of the 371 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:32,000 preferred experience is pretty hefty upfront, because again it's written for a senior level. 372 00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:36,400 And in talking to a lot of organizations, we've found that they do 373 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:45,119 these in essence because it's a budget and instead of writing out several positions, 374 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,640 they pick whatever their max budget may be, and the job postings are written 375 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:55,559 to whatever their highest level person they can hire, and then they have the 376 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:03,160 discretion to hire people below that. So it's slightly concerning because if I see 377 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,279 a software engineer senior and I'm an entry level person coming right out of college, 378 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,839 my first thought is not to think I'm going to try to sell myself 379 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:17,440 as a senior software engineer. And if I don't have contacts at that organization 380 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:22,079 to even begin to ask the questions of can I even apply for this? 381 00:31:22,359 --> 00:31:27,599 Is it more than one position? Do you think that there's openings for others? 382 00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:33,599 It leaves it to be very unopened and unwelcoming, even though at beginning 383 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:41,200 it looks like there's these four potential areas that could fill for me. The 384 00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:45,000 other thing that we've noticed is that in these conglomerate positions sometimes just the lack 385 00:31:45,119 --> 00:31:52,640 of ensuring that it's very clear and not just like grammatically looking that when we 386 00:31:52,720 --> 00:32:00,000 copy paste and change experience levels suggestions that we're being very mindful that those change 387 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:06,200 are occurring. And just similarly looking at like a software engineer one, some 388 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,759 of the job postings we found were like they which to me would scream a 389 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:15,039 very close to entry level person. People were asking for like eighteen years of 390 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:20,960 work or eighteen months of work experience, which is, you know, a 391 00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:25,240 year and a half. Otherwise they'd take an internship experience. But equally so, 392 00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:30,240 then we need to make sure we're providing those opportunities out to people in 393 00:32:30,319 --> 00:32:35,680 the meantime. Yeah, and one of the difficult things that you know, 394 00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:40,920 we understand the budget limitations. But you know, a lot of these companies 395 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,680 when they're looking for succession planning, when you write a position and you have 396 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:51,000 multiple levels, then competitively, you would think that the company would take the 397 00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:53,880 person with the highest level of experience, which is the least amount of training 398 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,839 necessary for the person to be able to come in do the job. Like 399 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,480 we always like to say, you know, plug and play, But every 400 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:06,599 time you look at the senior level, you have individuals with eighteen fifteen years 401 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,480 plus of experience, where in the closer years the baby boomer generation, you're 402 00:33:10,559 --> 00:33:15,119 closer years to retirement. And what occurs is that when you have these positions 403 00:33:15,119 --> 00:33:22,279 like that and all you continuously gain is high senior level members to your company, 404 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:25,759 which is good at that time, you negate to have the secession planning 405 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,680 because you're you're missing out on those entry level positions that are lacking the training 406 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:36,079 to get to senior level. So once you start having the large numbers of 407 00:33:36,119 --> 00:33:38,680 retirements and people start to leave, you have no one in the bottom to 408 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,359 fill that position in the training. So what occurs is that as your seniors 409 00:33:43,359 --> 00:33:47,240 start to leave, then you're starting to alter the positions to bring an entry 410 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:53,599 level but now you lack the senior experience to produce that training to eventually repeat 411 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:59,240 the cycles. So we noticed a lot that a lot of these these students, 412 00:33:59,759 --> 00:34:02,759 because they automatically, like a man that was mentioned, they automatically presume 413 00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:07,720 they're going to be competing against a senior coming off of college, even at 414 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,679 a high level of education, a master's or a PhD. As soon as 415 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:15,400 they say experience required, a lot of students look back and say, is 416 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:22,239 my education, my projects in school, any competitions, is that experience or 417 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,639 is experience mean days on the job And a lot of the times they have 418 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,320 some experience, but they sell themselves short knowing that I would possibly be competing 419 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:37,920 with somebody who's ten fifteen years plus. And companies lose a lot of modern 420 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:45,000 innovative talent because of the way these conglomerate positions are being written. All right, 421 00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:49,480 so you know, thinking about this, let me ask you a hard 422 00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:55,079 question. We're talking about people coming out of school or out of university into 423 00:34:55,280 --> 00:35:00,840 entry level positions. But a lot of the people I mean, I go 424 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:02,320 to conferences, I talk to people. A lot of the people that I 425 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,440 talked to, a lot of people that I see in the OT security space. 426 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,360 They they did not come out of school into OT security. They came 427 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,719 out of school with you know, an engineering degree or you know, some 428 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:20,360 sort of technician certification. They worked five years and then looked around and said, 429 00:35:20,679 --> 00:35:22,639 you know, let me take the next step. Let me, you 430 00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:25,639 know, get some skills in a new field in addition to what I've been 431 00:35:25,679 --> 00:35:30,039 doing for the last five years. Or they come out of it, you 432 00:35:30,039 --> 00:35:32,920 know, they go to school for it or even it cybersecurity. They get 433 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,280 a few years experience, maybe at a help desk, maybe in a you 434 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:43,119 know, a security operations center, and then they start, you know, 435 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:46,639 stepping out of their their their sweet spot, getting some some extra training, 436 00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:52,360 getting some extra experience, and moving into the OT security space. You know, 437 00:35:52,519 --> 00:35:58,239 none of these are entry level people. They've they've all started somewhere else. 438 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,360 They have five years experience on of some kind, and now they're moving 439 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,960 into the OT space. Is there really such a thing as an entry level 440 00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:14,679 OT job. That's a really good question. So it is one that's like 441 00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:19,719 a definite one that's super hard to just jump right into, and you definitely 442 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:27,400 need the mixture of talent. I think, what, at least from my 443 00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:30,559 point of view, and I would presume Eddie's as well. Is what we're 444 00:36:30,599 --> 00:36:34,719 looking to push back. I think a bit on is wouldn't it be great 445 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,239 that instead of having and again I'm not pushing back on just energy sector. 446 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:45,679 I think this happens quite a bit is organizations look to have someone else pay 447 00:36:46,039 --> 00:36:51,519 to build someone's skill set up and then say I'd love for you to come 448 00:36:51,559 --> 00:36:59,079 work for us. But instead of harvesting that talent as young, fresh green 449 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,360 talent and saying we're going to build you and we want you to stay with 450 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,519 us. That provides a lot of people so much more hope that you have 451 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:15,400 actual interest in having them grow. And so whether or not I walking in 452 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:22,280 the doors fresh out of college, no one hundred percent anything about operational technology. 453 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,280 If you buddy me up with the right person in your organization, whether 454 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:35,760 that's an informal or formal apprenticeship, whether that's an informal formal buddy system internship, 455 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,239 at the end of the day, I'm going to be more loyal to 456 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,480 that company because they see value in me of putting forth at time and effort 457 00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:49,920 to grow me for their organization and seeing the point of moving me through how 458 00:37:50,039 --> 00:37:53,719 they want things to be done by the time five years comes around again. 459 00:37:54,039 --> 00:37:59,079 I think people have happened to do it all the time. They transfer organizations, 460 00:37:59,159 --> 00:38:02,519 they move whatnot. But you're starting to already start to see what you're 461 00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:07,199 fixed in somewhat of your ways of how you see things done things in other 462 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,679 ways. And so we would love to shift the paradigm away from just saying, 463 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,719 well, operational technology is you know, Bob who's been doing it for 464 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:22,800 thirty something years. Sooner or later, Bob's going to want to retire, 465 00:38:22,039 --> 00:38:25,679 and who are we going to look for his protege And at what point in 466 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,800 time do we start saying, instead of looking for the person that's been there 467 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:35,199 for the last fifteen years that kind of knows what Bob does when Bob goes 468 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,800 on vacation every once in a while, why don't we start looking at the 469 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:45,679 younger talent that is interested in helping and start getting them involved. They're interested 470 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,599 in wanting to know equally, they have a passion to understand how do these 471 00:38:49,599 --> 00:38:53,599 things break? And so instead of just saying we don't have entry level if 472 00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:59,079 that answer is fully true, which I agree with you to some aspect on 473 00:38:59,119 --> 00:39:02,760 that operational technology side, you know, that's not something that we should be 474 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,239 comfortable with actually going out and being able to say, is that there's no 475 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:13,360 such thing as entry level because even five years of experience in an engineering program 476 00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:20,199 or it and moving over and cross training to then move into OT technically, 477 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,280 you're still a novice. You're not you know, you don't know at all 478 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:27,880 yet. But we just don't want to call it entry because no one wants 479 00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,039 to take five years of experience and say now you're an entry level again. 480 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:37,159 So that's my pushes, you know, hopefully that at some point, you 481 00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:40,880 know, we work to really start bringing in some of the younger talent and 482 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,639 giving them that opportunity of using some of their very large brain capacities that they 483 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:50,920 have to think outside of the box of how can we really secure some of 484 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,519 our energy sector needs. Yeah, you know, we've all heard the saying 485 00:39:55,599 --> 00:40:00,480 it's not always greener on the other side, and just like we're saying, 486 00:40:00,559 --> 00:40:05,079 like when you have somebody who has five years in a previous organization, they 487 00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:10,400 have a reference point and a standard of what it is that they want to 488 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,679 do and how they want to be treated when they're doing it. So when 489 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:19,079 you go from it, you have your five years of experience, you're technically 490 00:40:19,119 --> 00:40:22,920 still kind of new now into the OT space and you realize this is not 491 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,280 for me, or I really like this, but I don't like the way 492 00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:30,119 this company does it. That's when you start having large turnover rates and you 493 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:32,400 start having a lot of people who come in do a year, and then 494 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:37,239 they want to pursue a higher salary. So you spent one year training a 495 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,079 person, You made them a very good OT operator, thank you very much. 496 00:40:40,159 --> 00:40:45,840 Now they went to another company to pursue another higher salary. Another experience 497 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:51,159 when you take somebody who's brand new and the only experience as they have is 498 00:40:51,159 --> 00:40:54,480 a college dorm, and they're willing to learn because they just spent four years, 499 00:40:54,559 --> 00:40:59,960 five years learning. They don't have a reference of what another job should 500 00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:01,679 be. They don't have a reference of how this job should be. All 501 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:05,719 they know is what you teach them. And all they know is that I'm 502 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,079 here to learn it. So you'll get more time and more effort and experience 503 00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:14,519 from this individual who's really brand new, green off of you know, the 504 00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:17,880 academia side of the house. Who's to go and to take the time to 505 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:22,519 learn something than somebody who already can learn it quicker, but ultimately say this 506 00:41:22,599 --> 00:41:24,840 is not for me. I'm going to go with this different path. So 507 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,920 that's why we're kind of pushing to for companies to take the chance with what 508 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:35,039 we'll call it is take the chance and understand that it can be learned, 509 00:41:35,599 --> 00:41:38,760 it can be taught. It's about taking the time to put them with the 510 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:45,480 right mentorship and taking the effort to really get them to be what the company 511 00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:50,440 needs. Cool. Well, you know this has been good. I've I've 512 00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:53,000 learned stuff. You know, before we let you go, Well, let 513 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,840 me thank you first, thank you both for joining us. Before I let 514 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,760 you go? You know, can you can you sum up for us what 515 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:05,360 what should we take away from from these these these questions and you know what 516 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,199 what are what are next steps if if we if we want to use the 517 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:13,400 knowledge. I hope that again we were obviously speaking to energy sector, that's 518 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,519 who we work with the most. Is that you know, we really want 519 00:42:16,559 --> 00:42:22,639 to be able to bring together those open job positions that we know energy sector 520 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:29,480 has and the amazing talent that we also bring from the Cyberforce program in the 521 00:42:29,519 --> 00:42:35,400 collegiate space and even those that have graduated from the program that are still seeking 522 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,719 you know, new employment and be able to honestly marry the two bringing that 523 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,599 talent to the energy sector and be prepared. But how do we do that 524 00:42:43,679 --> 00:42:49,000 so that both sides are happy at the end of the day that both understand 525 00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:52,719 and are open to the ideas of what you know, each are looking for 526 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,880 and understanding really the expectations going forth, you know, in future you know, 527 00:42:58,079 --> 00:43:01,159 people and work and things that we're doing. And then also really to 528 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:07,599 just understand just from generationally, and this is not just energy sector specific, 529 00:43:07,679 --> 00:43:09,679 but all that you know, we really need to stop and take a look 530 00:43:09,679 --> 00:43:14,440 at how are we you know, when we're trying to recruit and you know, 531 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,679 write our positions for the next talent that we're looking for. We really 532 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:23,159 need to think through like what are the generations that we're looking for interested in 533 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,559 and each you know, senior level position could be a very different group than 534 00:43:28,639 --> 00:43:31,880 someone when you're looking for an entry level and we should be working to kind 535 00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:38,039 of ensure we're being inclusive and writing our positions so it makes the most appropriate 536 00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:45,880 sense to who we're writing it for. So other than that, you know, 537 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,639 we'd love for people too. We have the Cyberforce competition that's our main 538 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,159 program out of the Cyberforce that comes up here in November. We would love 539 00:43:54,199 --> 00:44:00,280 for people to be able to participate. That's our Red Blue exercise with agic 540 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,239 students. If those are interested, they can reach out on our website and 541 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,679 that's Cyberforce dot Energy dot gov and we'd love to hear and see people there 542 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:15,519 as soon as possible. Andrew, that was your interview with Amanda and Eddie. 543 00:44:15,519 --> 00:44:17,800 To you of any final thoughts to take us out today, Yeah, 544 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:21,599 I mean the big thing I got out of the interview was, you know, 545 00:44:21,639 --> 00:44:27,760 concrete ideas for making job postings appealing to the generation that you're recruiting, 546 00:44:28,159 --> 00:44:31,000 you know, for the stage of life that that generation is in. And 547 00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:34,760 this is something you know, it sounds to me like we have to you 548 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,320 know, consult with our HR people. These are people who study people, 549 00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:44,159 not you know, recycle a job posting that you know attracted us, the 550 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,199 old folk to the industry when we were that age many many decades ago. 551 00:44:50,599 --> 00:44:53,559 More generally, you know, what I got was sort of a strong sense 552 00:44:53,679 --> 00:44:58,639 of how important it is to hire young people. Succession planning, you know, 553 00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:01,760 the energy industry has to think long term. A lot of industries have 554 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,920 to think long term. And I'm diverging a bit, but you know, 555 00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,719 succession planning can be tricky. That's something that sort of deserves a whole episode 556 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:14,000 if if we can find a guest, but let me give you sort of 557 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,800 just a taste. I remember reading a report. This was some years ago. 558 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:23,079 It was a manufacturing company. They brought in a couple of young engineers 559 00:45:23,159 --> 00:45:27,880 to replace, you know, a technician who'd been with the company for forty 560 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:35,679 odd years and was approaching retirement. And these engineers just couldn't seem to keep 561 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:39,360 up with the technician. They were together, they were they were less productive 562 00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:45,119 than the technician was. Singly, so they brought in an expert in operations. 563 00:45:45,159 --> 00:45:49,440 Analyst followed these people around for a couple of weeks, came back with 564 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,599 a report and said, here's what's happening. Every time one of these engineers, 565 00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:57,119 anytime anybody goes to this technician and asks the question, this person reaches 566 00:45:57,159 --> 00:46:00,239 behind his desk post on a clipboard with seventy nine graps of paper on it, 567 00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:05,079 you know, some of them yellow with age, flips through, you 568 00:46:05,079 --> 00:46:08,679 know, answers the question and goes back to work. Get that clipboard. 569 00:46:09,039 --> 00:46:14,639 Copy it. These are your standard operating instructions. You can't afford to have 570 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,679 them hanging on a clipboard in one person's office. So, you know, 571 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:25,440 making things work succession wise is important. It's it can be difficult, and 572 00:46:25,559 --> 00:46:30,800 you know, hiring young people fresh out of school can make them more loyal. 573 00:46:30,119 --> 00:46:34,719 But you know, in my opinion, look, even if if people 574 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,960 jump around, you know, like I said, in the first ten years 575 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,559 of their of their career, you know, the grass is always greener. 576 00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:47,400 They bring you know, people coming into an organization bring perspectives from outside the 577 00:46:47,519 --> 00:46:53,159 organization. You know, if someone's leaving our business, we might be missed, 578 00:46:53,199 --> 00:46:58,480 but we're probably hiring someone at that level in from another business. So, 579 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,440 you know, the energy industry has to think and does think sometimes as 580 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:07,880 an industry, not just as individual enterprises, and as an industry, you 581 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,559 know, we have to be about hiring and training and growing young people. 582 00:47:10,639 --> 00:47:15,320 This is something the industry has to do. This is something that every utility 583 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,880 in the industry has to do. And here's some concrete advice to you know, 584 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:23,280 speed that process, especially for the entry level folk. Okay, well, 585 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:28,559 thank you to Amanda and Eddie for elucidating that point for us. And 586 00:47:28,559 --> 00:47:31,360 Andrew, thank you as always for speaking with me. It's always a pleasure. 587 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:36,760 Thank you, Nate. This has been the Industrial Security Podcast from Waterfall. 588 00:47:37,159 --> 00:47:38,400 Thanks to everyone out there listening