WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:07.759 All right, welcome back, and joining us now is David Davenport, as 2 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:11.800 I said before, his research fellow emeritus at the Hoover Institute. He's on 3 00:00:11.880 --> 00:00:14.480 in Californias. He told me this is a breakfast time there for him, 4 00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:20.359 so that's pretty early there. He specializes in constitutional federalism, civic education, 5 00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:24.920 modern American conservatism, and international law. During his career at Hoover, he 6 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:30.559 also served an administrative capacities as counselor to the director and the inaugural director of 7 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:37.200 Hoover's Washington d C program, former president of Pepperdine University, and under his 8 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:42.479 leadership there at Pepperdine, the university experienced significant growth in quality and reputation. 9 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:47.159 He is a co author of a new book, A Republic if we can 10 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:54.439 Teach It, Fixing America's Civic Education Crisis. His co author is Jeffrey Sikinga. 11 00:00:54.640 --> 00:00:57.200 If I pronounce that correctly, If I'm not, you can correct me. 12 00:00:57.280 --> 00:00:59.840 David. Now, thank you for coming on. And of course when 13 00:00:59.880 --> 00:01:03.319 we look at what is happening on the college campuses, we got some real 14 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:07.840 problems. And I guess the question is you know where do we start? 15 00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:12.239 And I think you would start to direct us towards some of the civics stuff. 16 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:15.599 Tell us a little bit about that, and welcome, thank you for 17 00:01:15.640 --> 00:01:21.840 coming on. That's good to be with you. Our sense in writing this 18 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:26.879 book is that if civic education, the poor state of civic education, didn't 19 00:01:26.920 --> 00:01:30.599 cause some of our current problems, they could at least be a solution. 20 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:38.159 And I think most Americans are not aware of just how poorly students are being 21 00:01:38.239 --> 00:01:42.799 taught civic education. There's very little taught, if any, these days, 22 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:49.519 unlike perhaps you're in my day, in the elementary and middle schools. In 23 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:53.480 high school there's generally just a single one semester course, which is kind of 24 00:01:53.840 --> 00:01:57.560 too little, too late. As you point out, on college campuses, 25 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:06.319 there's little to history and civic education. So we're training kids to work on 26 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:10.719 computers and to do technology and with STEM and so forth, but we're not 27 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:14.800 teaching them how to run the country, or even how to be good citizens, 28 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:19.719 that's right, or even convey some values. While we went to break 29 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:22.879 and of course you couldn't hear the program, but I was playing a little 30 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:28.080 bit about the about the Boston tea party, and it came from a series 31 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:30.560 it was produced that we watched when I was in school. It was actually 32 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:34.719 produced by CBS, and it's like you are there, maybe you remember this, 33 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.759 you know, and they would re enact some kind of a historical thing. 34 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:40.840 They would talk to the camera like they were the guys in the office, 35 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:44.439 you know, So they broke the third barrier there, I think they 36 00:02:44.439 --> 00:02:46.879 call it, and they talk to the audience and then they pull back and 37 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:50.479 you watch this little vignette or what they're doing. And it was a kind 38 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:55.159 of values, civics, values that today would get you canceled if you were 39 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:58.719 to teach these types of things, and that's what they would and it was 40 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:00.319 actually being done by CB. Yes, I think some of them were introduced 41 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:05.159 by Walter Cronkite of all people. And so that's how far things have changed 42 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:07.520 in my lifetime. But let me ask you this. You know, when 43 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:13.080 we talk to young people, it's very difficult to get them to even care 44 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.039 about anything. They don't believe that there is any such thing as truth. 45 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:17.879 I've got a truth, you've got a truth, or you know, They're 46 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:21.639 only absolute truth is that there is no truth, and so it's hard to 47 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:23.479 get them to engage. It just kind of drop outs like well, I 48 00:03:23.520 --> 00:03:27.080 don't care. And so in that kind of an environment, in an environment 49 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:30.639 where they're actively pushing Marxism and a lot of these different things, I don't 50 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:34.400 really call it woke, but I've interviewed she Van Fleet. I don't know 51 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:37.360 if you're familiar with her, but she talked about She said, we saw 52 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:38.960 the stuff when I was going up in China. You know, this is 53 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:44.800 nothing that is unique to America. These are just Marxist tactics to capture the 54 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:46.639 youth. How do we how do we get started in all of this? 55 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:53.840 It's the starting place. You know, kids love stories, and part of 56 00:03:53.879 --> 00:04:00.400 the problem is that we're not starting out in the very young elementary years telling 57 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:03.240 kids the stories of America. And that's where Jeff and I would start. 58 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:09.000 In fact, Robal Reagan in his Fair Reel address, said that his big 59 00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:13.520 concern is that we were not passing along values to the next generation and that 60 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:18.519 we needed what Reagan called informed atriots, which is exactly what Jeff and I 61 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:25.199 believe in and our senses at Reagan said, it starts at the family dinner 62 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:29.759 table, and so we don't need to rely just on schools to convey America's 63 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:34.480 story and city education, and so families at the dinner table can talk about 64 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:40.759 America. There are holidays obviously that have stories behind them. Parents can share 65 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:46.720 why are we celebrating that holiday, Why are we singing that particular song, 66 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:50.360 why do we do a pledge of allegiance. In the summertime, when families 67 00:04:50.360 --> 00:04:56.000 go on vacation, they can visit historic sites and talk about the stories of 68 00:04:56.040 --> 00:05:00.319 America. As you said, as kids, you watched watched the TV program, 69 00:05:00.399 --> 00:05:06.000 I read that we were there books right to the sours. That's great. 70 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:10.879 I forget whether it was we were there or you were there at Boston, 71 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:14.920 you were there at the Constitutional Convention, and those were just stories that 72 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.199 I love it as. Oh yeah, so, and we had Disney at 73 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:21.959 the time wasn't doing transgender you know, baby stuff, but Disney was doing 74 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:27.879 things like you know, the Johnny Tremaine and things like that, and you 75 00:05:27.879 --> 00:05:31.439 know, he actually did things about the American Revolution and the principles that America 76 00:05:31.480 --> 00:05:34.199 has founded on. You know that stuff is still out there if you want 77 00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:38.399 to get that stuff for your kids, you know that that resource is still 78 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:41.800 there. It's not being made by Hollywood anymore, but you know you can 79 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:45.560 still find those types of things. Yeah, absolutely, so that's where we 80 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.319 would start, and we think it's a big mistake not to be doing that 81 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:53.160 in the elementary and middle school years, because, as you say, then 82 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:57.800 it just becomes one more boring high school class by the time students are introduced 83 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:00.759 to the story of America. Yeah, I think there's a great opportunity there 84 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:06.800 for families as well as for schools to begin telling America's story and giving kids 85 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:11.160 a chance to get excited and interested. That's right, Yeah, I agree 86 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:15.920 with that. I think you know, the primary teachers of kids are and 87 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:17.800 should be the parents if they spend the time with them, whether you're talking 88 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:21.480 about school or are you talking about church. I mean, you've got to 89 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:28.680 instill those spiritual or civic values as a family, especially because wherever they go 90 00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:30.879 they're going to get some counter programm into that. So you know who, 91 00:06:30.959 --> 00:06:34.240 other than parents, who are the best players that can kind of fix this. 92 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:39.600 What do you think? Well, as we look at the schools, 93 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:47.560 I personally look first at state legislators and state schools of education because those are 94 00:06:47.560 --> 00:06:53.399 the ones that can tell schools you need to be teaching x amount of civic 95 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:59.480 education and American history. I will add throughout the grades. And what Jeff 96 00:06:59.480 --> 00:07:04.160 and I think is the best approach is what we call the layer cake approach, 97 00:07:04.240 --> 00:07:10.959 which is you start with age appropriate civic education and history material in kindergarten, 98 00:07:11.439 --> 00:07:15.800 and each year you add something to the layer cake that is age appropriate, 99 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.720 so that by the time kids get to high school and they get to 100 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:27.240 the harder subjects of American history and government and civics, they know the vocabulary, 101 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:30.319 they know the stories, they have some background with which to work with 102 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.399 that. So we've got to go back to requiring civics and history to be 103 00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:40.959 taught from kindergarten, building the layer cake right on up through high school and 104 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.800 even college. Yeah, oh, I agree, And you know, we 105 00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:46.759 just basically, I think what we can basically do is look at what they're 106 00:07:46.759 --> 00:07:51.839 doing with the LGBT agenda ta go over to civics, because they start in 107 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:56.399 kindergarten, they start with the babies on TV, and they actually you know, 108 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:00.360 add it as this maybe you could say age inappropriate material, but they 109 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:05.879 gradually added as layers all the way through. And so it's this constant reinforcement, 110 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:09.079 constantly coming back. And I think that's really the way that values are 111 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:11.959 always taught whether there are values that are good or values that are bad. 112 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:16.079 Is that that layer cake approach is absolutely true? Yeah. Now, of 113 00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:20.279 course there's been some efforts to try to change some of the universities, like 114 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:26.040 in Florida, for example, and they've been screaming bloody murder about that. 115 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:31.759 How do we you know DeSantis has done that? Are there any other places 116 00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:37.399 where people are even trying to do anything to change these these teacher seminaries, 117 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:39.399 I guess we could call them you know where they're teaching the Well, you've 118 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:45.000 put your finger on a really big problem. And if I were gonna I'm 119 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:46.559 trying to be retired, if I were going to write another book, I 120 00:08:46.639 --> 00:08:50.679 think I think the next project I would undertake is that I think schools of 121 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:56.919 education are a big part of the problem. That is to say, teachers 122 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:01.399 need the right training to be able to teach civics and history, and frankly, 123 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:07.600 we do a very poor job of that. Schools of education, even 124 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:13.159 at their best, have become how to teach and nothing about what to teach. 125 00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:18.240 So we have kids going into the classroom from colleges to be teachers, 126 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:22.120 but they themselves don't have the background in history. And in civics, And 127 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:28.279 in fact, if you look at state certification standards for history and Civics, 128 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:31.279 they're among the lowest in the country. You have to have far more training 129 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:35.879 to teach science or math or what people think of as the hard subjects, 130 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:43.480 but we just have kids going into teaching who haven't had that background. My 131 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.759 co author Jeff likes to say, you can call a civics or history teacher 132 00:09:46.799 --> 00:09:50.039 or anything, but the main thing you call them is coach. You know, 133 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:52.840 they've brought in to coach the team, and then, by the way, 134 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:58.080 we need you to teach the civics class. So I think the schools 135 00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:01.720 of education clearly are part of the problem, and we need to be requiring 136 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:05.600 much more content at that level, not just how to the heat. Oh 137 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:11.559 yeah, absolutely. It is kind of interesting because you know, they can 138 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:16.559 teach the wrong thing, or what they can do is just completely ignore it. 139 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.600 And as we see them taking down statues of historical figures that they know 140 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:24.840 nothing about their lives or their contributions, what we see I think is really 141 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:31.080 kind of a bull faced move to eradicate history. Right. That is a 142 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:35.440 key part of CRT and of Marxism in general is to eradicate history. It's 143 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:41.480 one of the things that Mao did. And so you can eradicate history by 144 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.559 just not telling people about it, or if somebody knows about it, they 145 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:52.720 can be informed to contradict it. I think that's the key thing, is 146 00:10:52.720 --> 00:10:54.840 that first of all, they just ignore it, and then secondly you've got 147 00:10:54.840 --> 00:11:01.000 a lot of these teachers who have been radicalized in school to actively oppose it. 148 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:03.440 And so I think, again, you know, if people are concerned 149 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:07.879 about this, you know, looking at your book, a Republican, if 150 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:09.480 we can teach it, how do we fix this type of thing? And 151 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.120 as you point out, begins with parents teaching their own kids, but then 152 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:16.360 also begins with I think parents getting together and saying, you know what, 153 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:20.600 what is happening at the school board level or at the state department level. 154 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.559 And gradually we come down though, and we get to this situation where, 155 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:28.799 because of what you're talking about, there were the teachers being educated. If 156 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:33.919 they've got an agenda, it really doesn't matter if the particular teacher has got 157 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:37.120 an agenda. It doesn't make too much difference if you get the school board 158 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:41.039 on your side or if you've got the governor on your side. If that 159 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:48.080 teacher in the classroom we had again on a variety of subjects, they would 160 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:50.320 do TikTok videos and say, Oh, I don't care what they tell me 161 00:11:50.399 --> 00:11:52.480 to teach, this is what I'm going to teach my class. You know, 162 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:56.360 what do we do about that thing other than just trying to have a 163 00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:00.879 school choice or homeschooling or things. Is there any other alternative for that type 164 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:03.559 of thing? As somebody who's been a university president, how do you handle 165 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:09.799 that type of thing in the classroom? Frankly, it was a little bit 166 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:11.679 easier in the day when I was a college president. We didn't have all 167 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:18.559 of these I mean, liberalism has been sweeping across the academic world for a 168 00:12:18.600 --> 00:12:22.799 long time, but some of these isms that you have pointed out are a 169 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:28.360 little newer than my time of leadership. Jeff Sikiga is the director of the 170 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:33.759 Ashbrook Center in Ohio, and they do work on civic education, and they 171 00:12:33.799 --> 00:12:39.240 have David what I call a secret sauce for teaching civics and history, and 172 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:48.440 that is they train teachers to teach history in civics using primary documents. Part 173 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:52.399 of the problem is that teachers are given these textbooks to use which are at 174 00:12:52.440 --> 00:12:56.600 the best boring frankly, and at their worst, as you say, also 175 00:12:56.720 --> 00:13:01.960 biased. Mean Howard Zen's People's History in the United States, that's one of 176 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.519 the most widely used texts in the country, is just anti American. I 177 00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:11.120 mean, it's not American history, it's anti American history. So what they 178 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:16.440 do at the ASPEC Center is they train teachers, thousands of teachers to use 179 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.080 primary documents. And this is, of course the Constitution, the Bill of 180 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:24.919 Rights, the Declaration of Independence. But it's more than that. If we're 181 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:30.159 going back to say, to study the Great Depression, then we read some 182 00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:33.639 speeches by Franklin Roosevelt, we'd read some speeches by Herbert Hoover, and we 183 00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:39.720 let students draw their own conclusions. We take students back in time. My 184 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:43.919 line is that if you're going to travel back and study history, you need 185 00:13:43.960 --> 00:13:50.879 to check your twenty first century glasses at TSA, because history needs to be 186 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.519 understand in its own time, interested in its own time and its own context. 187 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:58.159 So we read speeches by Hoover, we read speeches by Roosevelt, We 188 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.799 look at laws that were passed in the first one hundred days of the New 189 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:05.399 Deal, and we let students draw their own conclusions. Well, there's an 190 00:14:05.399 --> 00:14:11.600 excitement about that replaying those debates of the nineteen thirties or the eighteen seventies, 191 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:18.519 and students find that much more interesting and exciting. At the studies show they 192 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.360 learned a lot more than by reading a boring paragraph in a textbook. Yeah, 193 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:26.240 so that's one. That's one approach that I think could be really effective. 194 00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:31.080 Is really effective. Well, I really I can't say enough about that, 195 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:31.960 how much I agree with you on that. You know, when I 196 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:35.200 was in school, it was all textbooks and outside of these stories that we 197 00:14:35.240 --> 00:14:41.159 already talked about, I really hated history. I learned to love history when 198 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:43.679 I went back to primary sources, when I went back to original documents, 199 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.320 when I went back to what people who lived there were actually doing. You 200 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.279 know, I read a Deutoukel, I read Jefferson, I read letters and 201 00:14:52.399 --> 00:14:56.679 things that were you know, there's a lot of compilations of individual letters that 202 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:00.759 were written, not even just the big politicals beaches, but you know, 203 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.879 you go back and you look at the diary of Mary Chestnut during the Civil 204 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:07.399 War whatever, talking about what she saw. People are very literate at that 205 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:13.360 time, and they wrote amazing observations. Even going back to England. You 206 00:15:13.360 --> 00:15:16.440 know the Diary of Samuel Peeps. So this is a guy that lived through 207 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:20.200 the London Fire and everything. He was a bureaucrat and he wrote his stuff 208 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.039 in code and he thought it'd never be decoded, but somebody decoded it. 209 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.759 And he had a lot of private stuff and he probably didn't want anybody to 210 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:31.080 read. But I remember hearing that as an audiobook and ken Brenna was reading 211 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:33.440 it, and it was fascinating, it really was. It really got me 212 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:39.360 interested in history, getting back to those original primary documents. And I'll just 213 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:41.240 say this. You know, when you look at both of these things, 214 00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:46.639 going back to original primary documents and we look at the stories as you point 215 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:48.879 out, I think that was the key to success for ken Burns. For 216 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.840 example. You know, the first thing that he hit a home run with 217 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:54.559 was a civil war. And now I have some disagreements with him about how 218 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:58.519 he perceived the Civil War, but it was fascinating and why was it fascinating? 219 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.679 Even though they had no moving pictures, and even though they did the 220 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:06.840 now famous ken Burns effect where they just slowly pan in zoom man or pan 221 00:16:06.840 --> 00:16:10.559 across a still picture. You know, he was he had actors who were 222 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:15.720 reading from the documents that people are writing, common people, leaders, politicians, 223 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:18.600 people who are observing what was going on. And he continued that formulation 224 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.200 with other documentaries that he did. But that's the key thing. It's the 225 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:26.240 original documents that was really his script for a lot of that, right. 226 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:32.799 And you know Ashbrook has done one better. It has now been publishing books 227 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:38.559 of primary documents that correspond to the different historical periods that teachers needed to teach. 228 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:45.000 Wow. So they've they've collected those documents and made them available. So 229 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:51.279 I mean, and Jack here Ashbrook, you mentioned Ashbrook, that's the Jeffrey 230 00:16:51.679 --> 00:16:55.639 Sekinga. You're you're the professor of political science and the co author. He 231 00:16:55.720 --> 00:17:00.840 is also co director of the Ashbrook Scholar Program at Ashlyn University. Is that 232 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.559 where people would find some of these books that you just mentioned with ashbook. 233 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:08.160 Yes, Actually, they have a separate website that is a set of resources 234 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:15.799 that millions of teachers use. It's called Teaching Americanhistory dot org. And if 235 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:19.440 any of your listeners want to go to teaching Aamericanhistory dot org, they will 236 00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:26.079 find a plethora of documents and paintings and as you say, videos and things 237 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:30.680 that will help them teach from primary documents. Great source, that's fascinating. 238 00:17:30.680 --> 00:17:33.440 Well, I'm glad that that's there. I think those types of things are 239 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.440 very important. It really does bring things home. I remember when we were 240 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:41.799 studying history, it's just memorizing dates and events, and it was exactly incredibly 241 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:47.319 boring. That's a very low bar for civics and history. That's right. 242 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:49.400 You know. One way we put it in our book, David, is 243 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:56.200 in ele elementary school, you do have to teach the what. You have 244 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:59.440 to have some basis of the what. And stories are a great way to 245 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:03.960 begin at that level. By middle school they should be teaching and asking about 246 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:10.000 the how how do things piece together and work together? But by high school 247 00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:15.319 we should be thinking about the why why America? Why freedom? Why does 248 00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:21.039 the Constitution matter? Why checks and balances? And to get to get students 249 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:25.200 to really understand and even love America, they need to get to those why 250 00:18:25.279 --> 00:18:29.079 questions. Well, the textbooks, as you say, they're either too boring 251 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:33.039 or they've got the wrong why and not one that we want to be sharing 252 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:37.480 with our kids. So primary documents great, great way to go teaching the 253 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:42.000 what, moving up to the how, and then ultimately the why why of 254 00:18:42.079 --> 00:18:48.319 America why, And that really does reflect kind of the classical curriculum for homeschoolers 255 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.440 or anybody who wants to use it, the tribut they begin with grammar school, 256 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.680 you know, just teaching the facts and getting the basic knowledge there, 257 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:03.839 then gradually moving into into rhetoric and critical thought and debate and all these other 258 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:06.759 types of things logic and all the rest of the stuff that should be the 259 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:10.680 progression that's there, and yet we don't see that. And I think that's 260 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.640 one of the reasons that progression not being there, I think is one of 261 00:19:12.680 --> 00:19:18.599 the reasons why people might start out pretty well in our government schools now, 262 00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:25.519 but then they quickly get bored to death and they start digressing in terms of 263 00:19:25.559 --> 00:19:27.759 the academic interest. I know that happened to me, and it was much 264 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:32.480 worse now the way that it is there. So how do we you know, 265 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.480 again, we're talking about doing these things to get started, and of 266 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:41.000 course underlying all of this is the politics of it all, right, So 267 00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.119 how do we get around that? Because it's a very very good I mean 268 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.119 it is. Education has become so politicized like everything else, hasn't it. 269 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.000 Yeah, I mean if I had the answer to that, you know I 270 00:19:52.039 --> 00:19:56.880 should be I should be in higher office, not sitting at a beach town 271 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:03.640 in California. Well, I'd vote for you. I think, I think 272 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:08.960 we My own view is that we need to go back to ideas of federalism, 273 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:15.880 and that is that the different branches that can tackle this problem need to 274 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:21.599 kind of stay in their own lane, if you will. And so in 275 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:27.200 my mind, the state legislatures should be about requiring certain amounts of history and 276 00:20:27.240 --> 00:20:32.519 civic education. They should be setting the standards. This is these are the 277 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:36.640 things students should study. These are how many hours of civics and history that 278 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:40.839 need to be at the school. That's what they need to be doing Primarily, 279 00:20:41.440 --> 00:20:45.400 I think I think by at large, we need to let teachers teach, 280 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:48.440 and of course there will be some bad teachers, there will be some 281 00:20:48.759 --> 00:20:53.920 great teachers. We need to give teachers better training, I think would be 282 00:20:53.960 --> 00:21:00.559 the key to turning that around. And so again back to the Prick Center. 283 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:03.079 But they're not the only ones who do this. There are others who 284 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:08.119 offer students teachers the opportunity to learn in more exciting ways and therefore teach in 285 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:14.000 more exciting ways. So I think working on teacher education is definitely part of 286 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:21.759 the of the solution. I think ultimately we have to start allowing kids who 287 00:21:21.799 --> 00:21:29.160 are well educated to form their own conclusions. I'm really very much against indoctrination, 288 00:21:30.599 --> 00:21:33.160 even indoctrinating with my ideas, which of course I think are the best 289 00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:38.519 is at all. But I don't think a good education is me transferring my 290 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:44.359 values to students. I think it's me getting my students to think and to 291 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:49.519 look at quality material and reach their own conclusions. But it's going to be 292 00:21:49.559 --> 00:21:53.119 a hard fight, because, as you say, once the schools have become 293 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:59.480 political battlegrounds, which they are today by and large, then it's very hard 294 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.119 for teachers to have the freedom and independence to teach in in that way. 295 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:04.880 I agree with you. I've said for the lot. You know, I 296 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:08.480 don't know who said this originally, but I what we tried to live by 297 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:12.039 when we homeschooled our kids. Education is not the filling of a bucket, 298 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:15.640 but it's the lighting of a fire, right, And and so you know, 299 00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:21.119 you trying to impose your stuff. I mean, you give them some 300 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:23.240 basics, you give them a worldview and that type of thing. But you're 301 00:22:23.240 --> 00:22:30.920 also trying to engage their intelligence and allow them time to explore. Homeschooling is 302 00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:33.880 great for that because they've got a lot more time to explore their own interests. 303 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:37.039 But you know, what about the Department of Education and what about the 304 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:44.519 federal influence and the money that they use to influence everybody we have we're in 305 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:48.000 Tennessee. We have one legislator who's saying, you know, the only way 306 00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:51.559 that we're going to break this thing is to stop the gravy train and the 307 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:56.880 financialization of this by just gradually phasing our and can't cut it cold turkey, 308 00:22:56.119 --> 00:23:00.480 but let's start cutting down the amount of money that we accept for the federal 309 00:23:00.519 --> 00:23:04.039 government in terms of education until we eliminated entirely. Now, he doesn't have 310 00:23:04.119 --> 00:23:07.920 a majority of people that are there. But what do you think about that 311 00:23:07.960 --> 00:23:10.880 type of solution. What do you think about the influence of the federal government. 312 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.400 I honestly don't think the federal government has a big role to play in 313 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:22.480 civics and history education. I think education is one of the few matters that 314 00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:27.720 still is left and should be left to the state and local governments. There's 315 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:32.079 a whole history there, whereas you know, No Child Left Behind in the 316 00:23:32.119 --> 00:23:37.039 early nineteen eighties tried to give the federal government a major role in what we 317 00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:41.680 teach and how we teach. Started this whole regime of testing that schools are 318 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:45.559 kind of dominated by in many ways. And then when it was time to 319 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:51.160 up to renew No Child Left Behind, it ran into trouble because people didn't 320 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:55.559 like the federal government controlling education in that way, and it was not re 321 00:23:55.640 --> 00:24:00.920 upped. Instead, Every Student's Succeeds Act took its place, which returned a 322 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.200 lot of the power to state and local governments. So I would like to 323 00:24:04.240 --> 00:24:10.119 see the federal government as a cheerleader for Civics and more HIFs history and Civics 324 00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:14.400 education, but I would not like to see it as a major funder because 325 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:18.920 frankly, once they start funding, strings get attached and they start telling you 326 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:26.880 how to teach. So at the most, the federal government used to spend 327 00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:32.559 a fair amount of money on teacher education and preparation, and if they could 328 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:36.720 do that without a lot of strings, I suppose that wouldn't be very harmful. 329 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:40.279 But to me, the solution is not in Washington to now yeah, 330 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:45.000 I think there's some problem. The solution starts at the dinner table, and 331 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.599 it moves to the schools, and lots of other players can be involved. 332 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:55.759 I have a friend who has helped start, for example, National Civics bees 333 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.799 where outside the classroom in middle school, which could be kind of boring directionists 334 00:25:00.839 --> 00:25:07.000 directionalist here as anyway, students get excited about things like debate and banned and 335 00:25:07.039 --> 00:25:11.519 extracurricular activities. Well, they've started in National Civics b and these kids are 336 00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:15.640 excited. They're fired up about learning civics and competing with each other about what 337 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.599 they know. I mean, there's so many The great thing about the civics 338 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:22.200 problem is we don't have to wait for Washington to fix it. We don't 339 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:27.000 have to wait for Bill Gates or Warren Buffett to fund it. Everywhere from 340 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:33.759 the dinner table to Civics b's, to classrooms to better jobs with teaching teachers, 341 00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:40.799 to primary documents to oratory contests by civic groups, there's one hundred ways 342 00:25:40.839 --> 00:25:44.559 that we can improve civics starting tomorrow. So that's the good news. The 343 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:47.720 bad news is we got a big problem. The good news is lots of 344 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:49.720 people could help fix it. We don't have to wait for a big fix. 345 00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.279 I agree, I agree. I think you know that we always want 346 00:25:53.319 --> 00:26:00.359 to try to fix things from Washington, and it's really the Washington influence. 347 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:03.640 It's the problem. But the education and the solution is going to really start, 348 00:26:03.799 --> 00:26:07.240 like you said, around the family table, and it's going to start 349 00:26:07.279 --> 00:26:11.440 local. And you know, we if we want to fix this problem, 350 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.079 pretty much like any other problem, we got to do it from the grassroots 351 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.240 up. All politics, local people have said, and I think that truly 352 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.279 is the case. And so you know, the money is the enticement that 353 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:26.119 is there for the heads to come in and corrupt the system and to control 354 00:26:26.160 --> 00:26:30.480 it. But we need to understand that our power is there at the local 355 00:26:30.599 --> 00:26:33.519 level. It really is interesting talking to you about this. And again I 356 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:38.039 love the title republic. If we can teach it because that's the only way 357 00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:41.279 that we're going to keep it, And if we can teach us, that's 358 00:26:41.319 --> 00:26:47.319 where the future lies. And we need to focus on the kids more so 359 00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:51.200 than we're doing. It's kind of an afterthought anymore. Everybody is so focused 360 00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:52.839 on themselves and we don't really think too much about the kids. And by 361 00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:57.440 just letting this go into a you know, whatever happens to them, go 362 00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:00.079 with a default decision. That's how I think how we got into this kind 363 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:04.799 of situation as well. David Davenport, thank you very much for joining us 364 00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:10.480 and again our public. If we can teach at fixing America's civic education crisis, 365 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:14.000 you can find that Republic Book Publishers. Is there a website that you'd 366 00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:15.200 like people to go to, or just tell them to go to Amazon. 367 00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.839 Oh, Amazon, slow delivery, but they'll get it to you. Okay, 368 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.720 all right, Thank you so much what you're doing, and thank you 369 00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:41.480 for joining us. The David Knight Show is a critical thinking super spreader. 370 00:27:41.400 --> 00:27:48.720 If you've been exposed to logic by listening to The David Knight Show, please 371 00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:56.480 do your part and try not to spread it. Financial support, or simply 372 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:06.039 tell the others about the show causes this dangerous information to spread. Father people 373 00:28:06.279 --> 00:28:12.000 have to trust me, I mean, trust the science. Wear you mask, 374 00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:23.319 take your vaccine, don't ask questions using free speech to free minds. 375 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:26.319 It's the David Knight Show.