1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,599 So people would say, what's the moral of the story, right, And 2 00:00:04,639 --> 00:00:07,919 so that's what they want to ask when they listen to a fairy tale. 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:14,480 And the truth is that there's something implicit which is more important than whatever moral 4 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,920 you think you should get out of this story. There's some participation, some 5 00:00:18,039 --> 00:00:24,000 mirror of reality, something that is that is reflecting to something precious and powerful 6 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,199 and sometimes beautiful, sometimes tragic. But it's more than a moral. And 7 00:00:28,239 --> 00:00:33,159 that's where like it seems like that's feminine thing. It's very elusive. It's 8 00:00:33,399 --> 00:00:37,600 implicit, not explicit. And the mistake people try to make is they try 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,079 to when you try to make the implicit explicit. I think that's when it 10 00:00:41,079 --> 00:00:44,439 gets into like propaganda, terarytate. That's when it gets into like you're hitting 11 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,920 people over the head with it. And you know, if they want to 12 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,240 hear a sermon, they'll go to church. You know, they don't want 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:01:04,239 to hear it. This is Jonathan Peshel. Welcome to the symbolic world. 14 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,000 So hello everyone. I am excited to be speaking to Kendall Hoyer. Kendall 15 00:01:19,439 --> 00:01:23,599 is someone who worked at Disney for many many years and she is now co 16 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:29,079 head of Story at Skydance Studios. She is an animator, but mostly she 17 00:01:29,159 --> 00:01:34,040 is someone who does storyboard art. She kind of takes the ideas from the 18 00:01:34,079 --> 00:01:38,799 script and from the director and actually creates the basic bones of the story that 19 00:01:38,879 --> 00:01:42,159 bring it all together. And so when you watch a movie that she's worked 20 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:45,640 on, she's some of the scenes she will have worked out in detail with 21 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,920 how the characters react and where they are and everything. So it's really a 22 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,079 joy to be able to talk to someone like that and see how her thinking, 23 00:01:53,239 --> 00:01:57,120 storytelling thinking, how she brings symbolism into that, and her experience as 24 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,840 an artist. So Kendall, thanks for coming to join me. Yes, 25 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:04,040 it's my pleasure. So Kendall, maybe tell me a little bit about what 26 00:02:04,159 --> 00:02:08,400 exactly it is that you do. Oh, I was storyboard artists, so 27 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:15,919 I work with the director and other storyboard artists to board out the movie. 28 00:02:15,039 --> 00:02:20,759 So I started storyboard out scenes and eventually those scenes get cut together to make 29 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,639 an entire story reel of the movie. And it's almost like a comic book 30 00:02:25,719 --> 00:02:30,879 version of the movie. It's almost the blueprint of the movie before it moves 31 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:35,120 to other department like animation and lighting and layout and all these other departments. 32 00:02:35,159 --> 00:02:40,919 That end up building the movie in production. So we watch our reels and 33 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:46,319 we judge the movie, the story basically on if it's working, what's not 34 00:02:46,439 --> 00:02:51,240 working, and then we oftentimes care it to part and rebuild it again like 35 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,039 four months later. So we're in this constant. It's almost like rewriting. 36 00:02:54,039 --> 00:02:59,080 We're doing iterations of the movie to really try to hone in on the story 37 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,080 and make it the best be so that that's my job is to like take 38 00:03:05,199 --> 00:03:08,120 a story but the script pages or a description of moment in the movie and 39 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:14,879 flesh it out with like because that is camera, environment, acting, character, 40 00:03:15,159 --> 00:03:19,280 like all that stuff. Yeah, okay, so let's let's say if 41 00:03:19,319 --> 00:03:22,120 I ask you this, like just to figure it out, what's the difference 42 00:03:22,159 --> 00:03:28,840 between you and the director. The director he makes the final call. He 43 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,319 makes the final call. So it's very very collaborative, which is great. 44 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,360 Like this is the same model that that Disney in at Pixart. It's like 45 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,800 a very collaborative in some other studios, but Disney, this is really the 46 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,520 Disney Pixar model. Because the head of our studio, John Lester, came 47 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,000 through the Pixart. He brought that model over here. It's great because you. 48 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,280 It's kind of like the best idea and the real winds. It's very 49 00:03:49,319 --> 00:03:53,560 collaborative and creative. So the difference between me and the director is I don't 50 00:03:53,599 --> 00:03:58,039 have the final call. However, I sometimes will be like, hmm, 51 00:03:58,159 --> 00:04:01,319 is that what you really wander is out what we should do? Because remember 52 00:04:01,759 --> 00:04:09,039 that that might contradict this, like hierarchy the main story point, like and 53 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:13,240 I can point out to them like this isn't really you know, driving with 54 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,839 this idea over here, and that's where like I might say, like simple 55 00:04:15,839 --> 00:04:20,480 with thinking is really has kind of hold my story senses because I'm like, 56 00:04:20,639 --> 00:04:25,360 I can kind of see how you know, things are more hierarchical, and 57 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:30,920 I can see the patterns overall, you know, like and it helps it 58 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,120 helps me. I feel like I already kind of had a story mindset because 59 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:38,600 I just obviously you were doing that before I was doing that before I discovered 60 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:43,800 your guys' podcasts and stuff like that. But it helped, right, And 61 00:04:43,879 --> 00:04:47,319 sometimes it makes something implicit more explicit, like because you have these intuitions, 62 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,240 it's not easy to explain them, and and and so sometimes I can give 63 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:57,399 you tools too. For sure, for sure, I think I can recognize 64 00:04:58,079 --> 00:05:03,720 things that are implicit quicker m and like put my finger on them, you 65 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,040 know what I mean, Like because I I'm like, oh, that's zat, 66 00:05:06,199 --> 00:05:10,720 I can call it what it is, where some people don't. They're 67 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:15,000 not aware of those things. Yeah. And so in your job, that 68 00:05:15,079 --> 00:05:18,879 means that if you're working on a project, you have to you have to 69 00:05:19,079 --> 00:05:24,079 adapt whatever you're doing to the style of the project and be able to draw 70 00:05:24,079 --> 00:05:28,920 the characters and be able to like yeah see yeah, like if you were 71 00:05:28,959 --> 00:05:31,360 animating, you have to like be able to kind of draw them on model 72 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,319 to scream. Although sometimes we don't have models for characters. You just have 73 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:39,680 like, yeah, it's going to kind of look like this. You're just 74 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,839 like, okay, just go for it, right if it's not a main 75 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:46,240 character, imagine, they don't put as much time I get. Yeah. 76 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,199 So eventually these characters are modeled, and then it goes to a different department, 77 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,360 which is called from here. It goes to edit, and then it 78 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:58,399 goes to where they take my boards and they put it together with sound and 79 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,600 music and they make like the story reels what we call it, and eventually 80 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,879 we will watch the whole movie in this form. Oh really, okay, 81 00:06:04,959 --> 00:06:09,639 well, yeah, multiple times. We watched every couple of loads. We 82 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,480 watch them to judge if it's the story is working, and that's how we 83 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,839 kind of hone in on how the story is coming along to see if it's 84 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,759 coherent. And then we bring in people from the studio to the other writers 85 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,639 and directors, and also everybody in the studio gives notes, and with those 86 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,000 notes we go, oh, this isn't working. There's a problem in this 87 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,959 area. This isn't working. It's kind of like medici mission for the story 88 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:39,160 against within the studio, and that's a very bikey thing because yeah, yeah, 89 00:06:39,199 --> 00:06:43,319 so it's kind of like that way we can pinpoint the problem areas and 90 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:49,399 sometimes we'll take people's suggestion. Most of the time people are like everybody is 91 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:53,839 like pointing in the same areas where we see that something isn't working. And 92 00:06:53,879 --> 00:06:59,680 that's how you know there's patterns and stories because everybody will almost always one rises 93 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:04,759 to the surface some way. It's always similar across the board, and so 94 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:10,360 in some ways the animation, you know, before you put in the massive 95 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:15,240 amounts of investment you need to get it animated, you know what the movie 96 00:07:15,319 --> 00:07:19,720 is going to be pretty much yeah, you're figuring it out. Although it's 97 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:25,319 it kind of simultaneous. Usually, if the schedule is we get about you 98 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,040 get a couple iterations of scripts, script mens, so terms, treatments, 99 00:07:30,319 --> 00:07:34,160 and then they go to boards. Then we get three screenings before things have 100 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:41,079 to enter production. And that means when roll after like the third screening or 101 00:07:41,079 --> 00:07:45,920 so, they'll look at the movie and go, this scene is working and 102 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,000 we don't foresee it changing too much in the future. Send that went to 103 00:07:49,079 --> 00:07:53,040 production, and there's all these other things that have to get done in production. 104 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,680 The models or characters have to get built, the sense have to get 105 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,519 built. They all have to get designed first by artists, and then they 106 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:05,839 have to get built in the computer by a three D artist and the Yeah, 107 00:08:05,879 --> 00:08:11,439 so there's and there's all kinds of computer simulation tests, things that people 108 00:08:11,439 --> 00:08:15,759 working on it all at the same time. It's very labor intensive, imagine. 109 00:08:15,879 --> 00:08:18,680 Yeah, And so I mean that sometimes you are working with let's say, 110 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,639 certain set designers that would have worked on some sets before you're you're going 111 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:28,600 in. Yes, well, yeah, they take it, so we kind 112 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:31,519 of work with them. The director works with all the departments. That's the 113 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:35,360 difference between me and the director too. Director is seeing it through all the 114 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:43,039 way down the line from like color and design and camera work and all these 115 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:48,759 things, like he's seeing everything through. But eventually these boards will get put 116 00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:52,639 it at it and then the layout department will take kind of like what I 117 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,840 did here, and they might not have the exact set I draw because I 118 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,600 try to fall close to what we have, but sometimes I kind of just 119 00:09:00,639 --> 00:09:03,799 make things up. They'll try to get the spirit of what I'm doing, 120 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,840 and they'll they'll set the cameras in the set because within the computer right there's 121 00:09:07,879 --> 00:09:11,799 a digital set. It's already there, Yeah, already there, and they 122 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,480 have the camera and they can place it and they lock off shots, and 123 00:09:15,519 --> 00:09:18,240 those locked off shots then those go to the animators, and the animators do 124 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:24,559 the performance on the character within those shots, and then from there it kind 125 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:31,000 of the other things happen, like effects and fur simulations and water simulations and 126 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:37,039 lighting. Lighting is really important, and all these other departments that touch the 127 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:41,840 shot before it gets done and usually gets much better each time, and when 128 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:46,679 you see the final thing, you're like whoa, yeah, wow. And 129 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,200 so it's like the fact that it's so labor intensive and that there's no possible 130 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:58,200 provisational aspect to it's it's surprising that you could have an animation by the time 131 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:03,639 to put it out that has like bad stories in it, Like how does 132 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:07,320 that? Because because you would think if you have people looking at it and 133 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,360 they can actually see the story play out, and these are professionals, wouldn't 134 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,960 they know if it's a bad story, Like when they be able to tell, 135 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,039 I feel like they can kind of tell, but they don't know what 136 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:22,440 the problem is. It's almost always a problem of not going deep enough with 137 00:10:22,799 --> 00:10:30,080 the you know theme essentially, like what it's talking about, and they you 138 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:37,039 know, how you talk about layers of reality, so like it you know, 139 00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:39,360 the deepest levels here at the deepest level higher whenever they're like somewhere in 140 00:10:39,399 --> 00:10:45,120 the middle and they don't know how to go to the next level of depth 141 00:10:45,159 --> 00:10:50,559 that would unify the parts and let parts fall off. Sometimes they get people 142 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,159 get caught up in like something that they're like, oh, but this is 143 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,320 just so beautiful, but the story is about this, and they're like yeah, 144 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:03,519 but when you have that moment in a movie, uh, that doesn't 145 00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:09,240 speak to the broader thing. The movie feels fractured and disjointed, and it's 146 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,639 not all pointing to the same thing. Like the best movies, right are 147 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:18,720 firing on all cylinders in the sense that they all have they're all pointing to 148 00:11:18,799 --> 00:11:24,399 the same thing, right, Like the story carries that the theme, right, 149 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:30,399 but also then the the sect design, the lighting, all those choices 150 00:11:30,399 --> 00:11:35,440 are pointing to one thing. And but if you get caught up somewhere in 151 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,240 the middle, then you want this sequence to speeches really cool and whatever, 152 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,679 but it's saying something different than what you have in your final conclusion scene, 153 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,279 then it's like they're not People are like, wait, what what was that 154 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,399 about? Oh that didn't tie into this? Oh okay, you know that 155 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:52,960 that tends to happen. Yeah, So people get like they like a certain 156 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:56,519 bit of writing or like a little exchange, and they're not willing to sacrifice 157 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:01,519 it to the the bigger to do your whole or sometimes I think they can't 158 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:05,919 see the bigger holes sometimes, or they can't they think that one sentiment might 159 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,519 be like the deepest there is. I think this goes from a materialistic perspective 160 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,519 because it's harder to perceive, like you said, to see the idiosyncrasies that 161 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:22,240 are evident in exchanges or that are evident in a character's journey, but you're 162 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,320 not. You can't. You can't like you can't see it. You can't 163 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,320 perceive it, or you don't see it in your own life, so you 164 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,720 can't see it in the character's life. I don't know. It's just just 165 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,360 sometimes I noticed people can't see it. They can't, Yeah, so they 166 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:41,480 So if you have you noted? Have you have you had a moment? 167 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:48,159 Like have you had moments where you worked on something and like you thought it 168 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,600 was all good and whatever, and then later you look back at it and 169 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,000 you thought, how could how did I miss this? Like? How did 170 00:12:54,039 --> 00:12:58,440 I didn't see this weird thing about it? Or this like this bump or 171 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:05,919 this this this. I mean, I haven't had as much say in uh 172 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,480 other projects as the one I have now because now I'm at a position where 173 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:16,080 I have more You have more power now than you did before. I have 174 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,000 more access now to say something. Before when I was just asteroidus and I 175 00:13:20,039 --> 00:13:24,879 would I would say things, but it wasn't in the room all the time 176 00:13:26,759 --> 00:13:28,759 to you know, to really try to get to the bottom of it. 177 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:35,000 And sometimes it takes a while to get to the bottom of what something really 178 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:41,960 is about, like, because the how the process works is the director usually 179 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:48,399 has a couple of different ideas and they don't know necessarily what what's at the 180 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,759 base of those ideas. It's just like there's something intriguing about this, you 181 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:58,879 know, and then the creative director or executive creative executive producer like comes in 182 00:13:58,919 --> 00:14:01,159 and says, Okay, the developed this idea out of the three, like 183 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,519 they pick one out of the three and it's a go in this direction. 184 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:07,480 And so they start to develop that and as they're developing it, they start 185 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,879 to see kind of a story, and they start to develop the world, 186 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,879 the environment that the story is going to take place in, the other characters 187 00:14:13,879 --> 00:14:20,200 and excuse me, the basic story structure, but they I wouldn't say that 188 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,480 they have the seme in hand, and that kind of like I think it's 189 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:26,759 like when people were saying they write a book and like it starts speaking to 190 00:14:26,799 --> 00:14:33,840 them, it'll start speaking. It's just sometimes I don't think everybody listens fully. 191 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,519 But there's something about, you know, when we talk about these animated 192 00:14:37,559 --> 00:14:43,720 movies, there's something about the early Pixar movies that were that seemed like they 193 00:14:43,759 --> 00:14:48,120 were really able to just it's hard to explain it. Like they just had 194 00:14:48,159 --> 00:14:54,679 a mastery of storytelling and also of characterization. Also because they were doing animation, 195 00:14:54,759 --> 00:14:58,519 they didn't have to that characterizations didn't have to be you know, complex 196 00:14:58,559 --> 00:15:03,600 like he would and some you know and some Oscar winning you know movie. 197 00:15:03,639 --> 00:15:09,120 But the characterizations we were captured so well, you know, like it was 198 00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:11,360 hard. It was magical, right, It's like the First tot Story or 199 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,080 Monsters Incorporated, or there were these these these early Pixar movies where there was 200 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,279 something about it when when the story finished, you were really mesmerized by just 201 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,960 how much air well to capture, even in terms of you know, the 202 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,399 the way that the movie the story twisted and turned it how it kind of 203 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,960 came back in the end, and how all these threads ended up being brought 204 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:37,200 back. The writing was just astounding. And so yeah, so that's why 205 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,360 that's why, like in some ways they they kind of ruined us for animation, 206 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,960 because it's as if it was the first blowout of real three D animated 207 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,320 movies, and they did such a great job that now it's like everything's measured 208 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:56,039 at the light of these early Pixar movies. I mean, they were like 209 00:15:56,080 --> 00:16:02,159 the other good thing that they had for them at that time, Like let's 210 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:08,080 pressure almost like and lets you know, like voices in the room, but 211 00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:12,120 maybe they're not in the room, do you know, just let's uh top 212 00:16:12,159 --> 00:16:15,440 down bureaucracy, age, reliable, better words, you know, just like 213 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:22,919 they were a small group and ideas could free flow, and you know they 214 00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:25,720 were like, let's do it. You know, they like, you know 215 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,240 more taking chearances. And it's that kind of created environment that you kind of 216 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:33,360 have to Like it may come easy when you're small in a smaller studio and 217 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:37,519 you've got something to prove, but as soon as you've proved something, that 218 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,399 kind of pressure comes, you know, starts turning heads. No I want 219 00:16:41,399 --> 00:16:45,159 to part of that, or you know, and it starts to protect the 220 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:52,600 creative environment you actually you have to protect it to a certain degree, actually, 221 00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:56,240 right right. I mean that's interesting to think about, you know, 222 00:16:56,399 --> 00:17:02,799 and it's interesting that in some ways you could imagine that some studio like Pigsar 223 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,759 ended up being the victim of their own success, like you said, which 224 00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:10,599 is that they attracted so much attention, you know, bought by Gigant, 225 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:15,960 the biggest, biggest entertainment corporation and then then basically the stakes are so high 226 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:21,680 now every time, every time, now these movies are so expensive too, 227 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:25,680 because the stakes keep getting higher that I imagine the pressure in the room is 228 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,119 different from a bunch of I don't know, like guys who finish college that 229 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,640 are just going just kind of just balancing things off the wall until it totally 230 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,480 sticks and bring it together. Yeah. I think there's probably different pressures when 231 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:41,160 you're at that level than when you're at the top. And I think, 232 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:47,599 what and then you're at the top, there's more voices and more i don't 233 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:52,480 know, like mundy pressure and you know, expectation and things like that which 234 00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:59,480 can really kind of drag you down at the creatively hard Yeah, so you 235 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,880 would hope that position. I'd never been a director, Yeah, yeah, 236 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,519 I know. I can't imagine like the pressure that they they hear, you 237 00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:10,240 know, uh, that that they that they have to deal with. So 238 00:18:10,279 --> 00:18:12,519 hopefully you hope that they'll protect their creative crew so that they don't have to 239 00:18:12,559 --> 00:18:19,519 feel that heat so much. And that's where somebody is to have a creative 240 00:18:19,559 --> 00:18:26,680 person in charge that unders really understands the created process to kind of protect the 241 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:33,039 creatives underneath them is really important, Like you know, because the business side 242 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:37,200 is the business side, you know, their their business seed, which they 243 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:41,000 have to be you know, that's important. Do what we do without that 244 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:45,839 side of it. But also there's a certain aspect that you have to create, 245 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,759 create like a buffer or protection between the people just trying to be creative. 246 00:18:51,039 --> 00:18:56,440 You know. Yeah, I mean that's really interesting. Like what I 247 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,279 would I find interesting about what you're saying because you wonder, like and I 248 00:19:00,279 --> 00:19:03,160 see the bad movies come out and I and I'm like, what, how 249 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:07,359 is it possible? Because you think they're definitely creative people, Like it's not 250 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,319 like there's a dearth of people with great ideas and a dearth of people that 251 00:19:11,759 --> 00:19:17,279 tell good stories. But in some ways, maybe it's just that pressure that's 252 00:19:17,279 --> 00:19:21,319 so high coming from people who aren't creative, who want to make sure that 253 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,240 I mean, it's it's it's not anybody's fault in particular, but it's like, 254 00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:27,079 if your movie has to generate a billion dollars, I mean, the 255 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:33,440 pressure of something like that is so crazy that it has to it has to 256 00:19:33,519 --> 00:19:38,240 kind of like come down onto the people that ultimately are the resource to make 257 00:19:38,279 --> 00:19:41,680 it happen. And it becomes kind of like a beast in out of itself 258 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:47,720 because the lore you I guess, succumb to like making things more expensive, 259 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,759 the lore. That cycle just kind of perpetuates itself in a way because you 260 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,400 just, well that one was really big. We got to make a big, 261 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:56,519 you know one on this one. You know, it's just kind of 262 00:19:56,599 --> 00:20:00,720 like spins kind of out of control, you know, yeah, yeah, 263 00:20:00,799 --> 00:20:03,640 yeah, yeah yeah, And I think we're reaching it seems like we're at 264 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,359 the end of that. Like it seems like whatever the next wave of things 265 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,920 is going to be is not It's just not going to be. It's like 266 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,279 what do you do after endgame? Like what do you do after these like 267 00:20:14,599 --> 00:20:19,000 massive, huge, you know, really well done and successful like things. 268 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:22,920 And then it's like, well, there's just nowhere to go after that. 269 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,519 If all you're trying to do is make it more fireworks, like you you 270 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:30,440 can't come back to come back to story, come back to character, come 271 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,480 back to two simple things thing. Yeah. I mean I think people are 272 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:41,839 really looking for like real and authentic thing, you know, yeah small, 273 00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:45,000 I think I don't know, did you see have you have you followed a 274 00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:48,240 little bit our snow white thing? Have you seen a little bit of what 275 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,720 we're doing. Yeah, yeah, it's great. I'm body am we Oh 276 00:20:51,759 --> 00:20:55,519 cool. I'm going to read it to my daughter. She's she's about to 277 00:20:55,519 --> 00:20:59,400 turn seven, so she's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah. Where it's like, 278 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,240 I listen very carefully to what you're saying because in some ways, you 279 00:21:03,279 --> 00:21:07,720 know, it's like I think, I think that it is possible right now 280 00:21:07,759 --> 00:21:11,599 to make very powerful, beautiful things. But but in some ways you have 281 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:15,359 to have the right were the right people, but then also the right spirit 282 00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:22,720 of of of creative possibilities in order for it to happen. Yeah yeah, 283 00:21:22,799 --> 00:21:29,359 yeah, yeah, to like protect that thing. And I think you know, 284 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,839 the other thing that I think people like or maybe watching or they need, 285 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,440 it's something that gives them something to reach for. Something that's so much 286 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:44,440 of things like are like story wise, they're not like aspirational, you know, 287 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,480 they're just kind of like, here's what it is. You know, 288 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,200 Yeah, it's kind of a doubter. It's like, oh yeah, that 289 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:53,680 is house. See. You know, I suppose it's something that's like we 290 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,759 look at this beautiful thing, you know, and you know, people might 291 00:21:57,759 --> 00:22:03,359 criticize that's just ideal stick that's never whatever, but it gives people something to 292 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:10,480 aim for that's higher that they can look up to, you know, stories 293 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,400 that that give them something and also stories like that where they can find themselves 294 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,279 in where they like the psychology of the characters real. You know, that's 295 00:22:18,279 --> 00:22:23,759 another thing that's really that's hard to do. I think it's finding a character 296 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:32,039 that's interesting, relatable, appealing, right that you're like, uh, You're 297 00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:33,920 like, oh, I'm on board with them, Like I know what they're 298 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:40,319 feeling in their smellet I really understand what their wound is. You talk about 299 00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:45,000 that sometimes, like what's the characters like flaw and yah? What what drives 300 00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:51,559 a character? You know? M hmm. Have you do right? No? 301 00:22:52,279 --> 00:22:55,720 I no, I haven't ever written. You say. No. You 302 00:22:55,799 --> 00:23:00,720 said do you have story ideas? Yeah? Some story ideas? Yeah, 303 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,640 and why wouldn't you want to? Right? Yeah? I don't know. 304 00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:11,200 I did. I just I'm always a picture person. But I mean I 305 00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:14,039 don't hate I like words, but you know, I just don't have it. 306 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,039 But right, not in the sense of I don't care about the writing 307 00:23:17,079 --> 00:23:19,839 part. What I mean is in the sense of creating stories. Oh, 308 00:23:21,039 --> 00:23:26,480 like creating your own story. Yes, I probably should should? I probably 309 00:23:26,519 --> 00:23:32,440 should something, so like I just do my work and then I do my 310 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,480 mom duties. I take my daughter La and all these things and them by 311 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:37,920 the end of the day, Like, oh, but I should try to 312 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,160 make turning for that. Sure, how long have you been doing this? 313 00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:49,079 I started in two thousand and eight as a story artist. Wow, that's 314 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,599 and now you're head of story and the co edit story co head of story. 315 00:23:53,759 --> 00:23:57,440 Yeah, so I have another coworker who was doing the job with me, 316 00:23:57,519 --> 00:24:00,319 which is super helpful. And what does that mean? What does it 317 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:07,359 mean then the story? Well, our job is to oversee the storyboard artist 318 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:14,279 team and also to be in the meetings with the writers and the director to 319 00:24:15,279 --> 00:24:18,240 kind of almost like shepherd the story and kind of help the director find the 320 00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:25,240 story and then carry that vision through in the boards in the storyboards. And 321 00:24:25,279 --> 00:24:26,720 now that the project we're working on, Now this is the first time you're 322 00:24:26,759 --> 00:24:30,039 doing this, Like, yeah, this is the first time I've been head 323 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:33,599 of story And how how is that? Well, it's great, it's great 324 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:41,240 because that's why in this job I have more say because the director is really 325 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,279 great. He had this in like all these meetings and because we're at all 326 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:48,559 these meetings, I can really see the story. Like if you're not in 327 00:24:48,599 --> 00:24:52,920 all the meetings, like little things get changed all the time. But if 328 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:53,559 you're in all the meetings and you're like, oh, okay, I know 329 00:24:53,599 --> 00:24:56,599 why that's there. I know why that's there. I know why that's there, 330 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,880 and he needs to accomplish this and this care We need to have a 331 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,839 moment around this area where a character realizes this because you have to track their 332 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,400 character arc. Right, you have to figure out you know, because all 333 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,759 the little pieces have come together. You got to do the main character, 334 00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:15,920 the secondary character, the world problem, Like all these things need to track 335 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:21,440 throughout, and you need to lay enough type in the story so that it 336 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,400 feels cohesive at the end. Right, you're trying to like have all these 337 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:30,400 things come together at the end and the conclusion will feel satisfactory. So you 338 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,720 can really track that if you're in all the meeting all the discussions about the 339 00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:40,720 story. And so it's super fun because I really really enjoy talking about story 340 00:25:40,799 --> 00:25:45,559 and character and really figuring out. I like story problems because it creates an 341 00:25:45,599 --> 00:25:52,720 opportunity to solve something. Yeah yeah, yeah, what did you study to 342 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:57,440 do this? I studied animation okay, and I like you, I went 343 00:25:57,519 --> 00:26:04,720 to art school, but I illustration. Yeah yeah, yeah, And I 344 00:26:04,759 --> 00:26:08,640 always wanted to work in animation since I was like eight. You know, 345 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,599 when I was like eight, I was like, I don' want work at 346 00:26:11,599 --> 00:26:15,440 Disney like many kids pre didn't you actually went, You actually went for it 347 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:21,519 and ended up doing it. Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I studied 348 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:23,279 drawing, you know, in high school. I was that kid with a 349 00:26:23,319 --> 00:26:30,640 sketch book at youth group drawing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, always drying. 350 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:36,519 So mmm, I mean this is weird, but there's a difference between 351 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,000 how I think the public perceives entertainment or movies and stuff like that in terms 352 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:48,319 of actors and all that stuff. Like that stuff is really secondary. It's 353 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,240 like it's it's like they get the money, but that who cares. Really, 354 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:59,799 Like the important thing are the important people are the storytellers. Yeah. 355 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:03,319 Yeah. The storytellers are the writers and they'll cleanly the directors that take the 356 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:10,480 story and make it into something. Yeah, and they take you the journey 357 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:17,519 with the actors of the cinematographer and the lighting and the set dresser and all 358 00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:18,920 that stuff. And that's why it all has The director has to be the 359 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,960 keeper of whatever here is at the top, like the saying that everything needs 360 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,599 to be pointing to and if they don't know what that is, and everybody 361 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,559 else is in trouble, right yeah and so and so seth. So we 362 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:37,039 need we need for people that are thinking about storytelling and are realizing that that's 363 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:41,440 really the key to talk to each other. So yeah, anyway, So 364 00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:45,880 like in my case, that's what I want to do, Like I have 365 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,920 to stop complaining about stories, and I have to try to to tell better 366 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,640 stories. So that's what that's kind of the the vision I give myself in 367 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:02,720 the next few years with his fairy tale, but then also God's Dog and 368 00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:07,440 then other stories that I have in mind. And so hopefully we can also 369 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:14,240 attract people around that, like people who are so anyways, that's why I 370 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,559 like, well, you know, I feel like I've never heard of so 371 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,000 many people interested in like I mean, as people more and more people recognize, 372 00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:26,279 wow, Alliwood's really not doing good things. Other people are like, 373 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,160 well, we'll do good things, you know, just like everybody's you know, 374 00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:36,400 and which is good because it creates opportunities for other things to arise as 375 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:42,640 the other just the established system seems to be fun. But you know, 376 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,240 I think something you have to like go into it soberly and like also be 377 00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:52,079 really like led into it because I think that, uh, it's it's harder 378 00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:56,359 than it well, at least for animation. Somebody, yeah it makes to 379 00:28:56,359 --> 00:29:00,799 you and like really you really know what that takes, like backers, and 380 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,400 you need someone at the head of that that understands it, and like, 381 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,240 I mean I don't even understand it, like all the like things that need 382 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,839 to come together for that to work. It's like it's it's a lot the 383 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,039 massive enterprise. Definitely, no, I you know that's true, especially if 384 00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:22,160 you want to make really quality things, because obviously you can pump out animation 385 00:29:22,279 --> 00:29:26,720 out He's more easily than any time in days, Like you could animate without 386 00:29:26,759 --> 00:29:30,759 knowing anything about animation, and then you get here like yeah, and then 387 00:29:30,799 --> 00:29:36,519 it's horrible and then and then and then nobody nobody cares. So so maybe 388 00:29:36,519 --> 00:29:41,880 tell me a bit about how how kind of symbolic ideas has influenced your your 389 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,279 work, Like how you you feel like you're able to integrate some of the 390 00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:48,039 things you've been that that I talk about or that or that you know Jordan 391 00:29:48,119 --> 00:29:52,519 talks about into storytelling, Yeah, we'll play you. How I came across 392 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,720 Jordan's It came about Jordan first. It had like, well, because I'm 393 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,400 always looking at stuff and you know, filmmaking things and so things. Anyway, 394 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:06,720 and I think I was looking up I had heard that kra Kuratsalah was 395 00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:11,160 influenced by Dostoyevsky stories, and so I was looking up Dostoyevsky and I found 396 00:30:11,279 --> 00:30:18,440 Jordan's video about any personality series. I was like, wow, this is 397 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:22,680 really interesting, and so I started following, and around the same time he 398 00:30:22,759 --> 00:30:26,240 became kind of controversial and people this is like back in twenty sixteen, like 399 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:30,359 twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, when it was late and it might have been 400 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:34,240 it was either early twenty eighteen or late seventeen. I think, yeah, 401 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,480 yeah, well that's when it really blew like it really blew up. Yeah. 402 00:30:37,519 --> 00:30:41,279 It was starting to blow up when people were talking about how this guy 403 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:48,920 is really well, he's misogynistic, he's this. Then yeah, I don't 404 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,000 disagree with anything that he's saying. I'm like, oh okay. It just 405 00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:59,039 kind of kept my interest in itself and just watched all his video by myself, 406 00:30:59,079 --> 00:31:03,240 and then I think he had you on and I was like, wow, 407 00:31:03,319 --> 00:31:04,640 that's really interesting. And then I looked up your channel and you had 408 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,359 like all these things about movies. I was like, oh cool, and 409 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:14,359 so I watched a bunch of that. So that shook my worldview, like 410 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,400 I had pretty much been living in you know, for like you know, 411 00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:22,680 very worldly, like I was raised in the church, and during college I 412 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,559 kind of fell away. And then so when I discovered all these things like 413 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,319 Jordan and you, my worldview had already been shifting, like I'd come back 414 00:31:30,359 --> 00:31:37,160 to God and like I was questioning everything, and it really kind of things 415 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:42,079 that I had been experiencing but having gone in my life again were really resonating 416 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,160 with what Jordo was saying. When like he talked about the bottom falling out, 417 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,839 I was like, oh, I don't think everything all the things that 418 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,599 he would describe, I'm like, yes, that's what happens. Yes, 419 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:59,799 that's what happened. That's what it feels like, phenomenologic, phenomenologically, and 420 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:06,960 so all those things really spoke to my personal experience, but also I could 421 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,920 apply them to what I would see in the story room or what I was 422 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,119 seeing in stories, Like I was like, oh, that's that principle that 423 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,640 you guys talk about or you know, when you kind of peel away the 424 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,519 material view and you see that really the spirit is the ontological truth and you 425 00:32:22,559 --> 00:32:27,839 can see things more clearly, you know. And I feel that's what symbolism 426 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,640 is very connected to the spiritual realm. So it's very like, uh, 427 00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:39,680 it's it's like that represents that that thing in the story is this principle in 428 00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:45,240 kind of the spiritual realm. It's symbolic of something that's unseen. And the 429 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:51,680 more I could see those things, the more I could kind of problems solve 430 00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:57,839 stories. So I think that like listening to you En Jordan, I didn't 431 00:32:57,839 --> 00:33:00,680 discover Junger Vicky too a couple of years ago. I think we're kind of 432 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:08,599 really just opening my eyes to seeing things not materialistically and seeing things and stories 433 00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:15,039 and patterns as more lack of but were more spiritual in a sense. And 434 00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:20,559 it just made it clearer to me because see, the piece is moving underneath 435 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,880 the physical reality. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's hard to talk about bass, 436 00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:31,519 I understand. Yeah, And so definitely one of the issues that people 437 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,240 complain about in terms of the modern movies is in some ways a lot of 438 00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:39,119 some of the decisions that seem to be made are not based on the needs 439 00:33:39,119 --> 00:33:44,440 of the story itself, but come from outside the story, like some message 440 00:33:44,559 --> 00:33:49,000 or some thing they want to get through, and it and that and that 441 00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:53,519 it's it seems artificial or tacked on because the story itself doesn't need it, 442 00:33:53,640 --> 00:34:00,359 or that it actually sometimes goes against the basic pattern of the story. Yeah. 443 00:34:00,559 --> 00:34:05,839 Yeah, And I think that was kind of like where I'm saying, 444 00:34:05,839 --> 00:34:10,400 like I think sometimes people pay they they see like sometimes those things, those 445 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,000 values as the highest value, like the best, like that's the deepest point 446 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,159 of the movie, or that's the theme where that's what it should be about, 447 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,199 and they try to It's like I always compare it to trying to hammer 448 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,679 in a square peg in a round hole thing. It's like you're trying to 449 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,519 make it fit, but it just doesn't fit. But you'll bend over backwards 450 00:34:30,559 --> 00:34:34,559 because you think that that's the most important thing. And it comes from not 451 00:34:34,679 --> 00:34:38,039 listening to the story or the characters of what this movie is really trying to 452 00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:42,760 say. Oh, just like if you know you're writing a novel and you 453 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,840 weren't really listening to what the characters would say or who that character is, 454 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:51,039 like you would make them act in a way that was counter to what you 455 00:34:51,079 --> 00:34:55,000 had established before. You know, we'll go like, well, that character 456 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,760 wouldn't do that. It pulls you out of this suspension of disbelief and because 457 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:05,519 it's just like it doesn't jibe with reality, it doesn't jive with the patterns 458 00:35:05,519 --> 00:35:07,360 and reality, it doesn't jive with what you've previously said up nobody would act 459 00:35:07,639 --> 00:35:12,000 in that situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then yeah, 460 00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:15,920 but it's interesting because right, it's like that's when you can see that 461 00:35:16,039 --> 00:35:22,719 in some ways the highest form of reality is not because we use we tend 462 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,960 to think something like even myself, you know, writing fairy tales. So 463 00:35:25,039 --> 00:35:30,440 people would say, what's the moral of the story, right, And so 464 00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:34,480 that's what they want to ask when they when they listen to a fairy tale. 465 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:40,360 And the truth is that there's something implicit which is more important than whatever 466 00:35:40,519 --> 00:35:44,960 moral you think you should get out of this story. There's some there's some 467 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,079 participation, some mirror of reality, something that is that is reflecting to you 468 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:55,679 something precious and powerful and sometimes beautiful, sometimes tragic. Sometimes you know it, 469 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:01,239 but it's more than a moral right, and it's yeah, like uh 470 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:06,199 like and that's where like it seems like that's feminine thing, you know, 471 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,639 like it's it's very elusive. It's implicit, not explicit. And the mistake 472 00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:15,360 people try to make is they try to when you try to make the implicit 473 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,599 explicit. I think that's when it gets into like propaganda caritatee. That's when 474 00:36:17,599 --> 00:36:21,960 it gets into like you're hitting people over the head with it. And you 475 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,000 know, if they want to hear a sermon, they'll go to church. 476 00:36:23,119 --> 00:36:28,119 You know, they don't want to hear it. And I'm never a little 477 00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:30,920 posted. I had a ton of post it on my screen, but one 478 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,039 of them is avoid didacticism. And it's because I learned that word. I 479 00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:42,239 was like, oh, that's what we want to avoid dignactics because and there's 480 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,000 a kind of place for it, like I mean, I feel like Asop's 481 00:36:45,079 --> 00:36:52,840 fables or there's some you know, there's some things that are like for children 482 00:36:52,119 --> 00:36:57,719 that have more of a little more of that. Yeah, it has that 483 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,760 aspect to it, but as you get older, you don't want it to 484 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:06,320 be so explicit. You know, you're more you're in a story, You're 485 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:12,880 more like kind of asking questions in a certain area like a certain like over 486 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,599 around a certain value, and you can't strawmen the opposing value, or it 487 00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:23,599 feels didactic. You have to let the the anti hero or whatever the antithesis 488 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:32,039 be as wrong as the the protagon industry, because otherwise it feels rigged. 489 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,920 It feels rigged. I love that word. I never thought of you thinking 490 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,119 about it that way. It feels rigged. That's a that's a great idea. 491 00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:45,119 And then and then it makes you realize in some ways that like you 492 00:37:45,159 --> 00:37:50,800 said, that there's something about a story which is rather a puzzle of human 493 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,440 experience that is playing out, and that there is there is a solution, 494 00:37:55,639 --> 00:38:00,039 but the solution is within the puzzle of the story. It's not it's not 495 00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:07,599 that it's not just a a more moral tale that comes in from from outside. 496 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:10,280 And obviously we're not the first ones doing this right. The whole THEA 497 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:16,079 sixmachina idea was that was like, you know, Aristotle complained about the playwrights 498 00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:22,760 not making the characters work out the story from within their own motivations rather than 499 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,239 rather bring in, you know, at the end, someone who just solves 500 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:30,239 the problem from outside and just basically tells you what you know what the moral 501 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,000 is so that you can go back home, you know, with a nice 502 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:37,079 package. Right. And as a storyteller, I feel like you have to 503 00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:44,719 be aware of the audience, the characters you're creating, and yourself. You 504 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:49,280 have to be aware of like what you yourself putting in there, you know, 505 00:38:50,079 --> 00:38:55,599 because what you already like have in your head, uh in like in 506 00:38:55,679 --> 00:38:59,239 the story. Like so many times, I feel like I've been on projects 507 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:05,000 where it's like I feel like we are like, yeah, we're saying this, 508 00:39:05,079 --> 00:39:09,199 and we know that this is what it is in the story, but 509 00:39:09,199 --> 00:39:15,320 but we should take that out of it because by this shod or saying this, 510 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:22,519 we're imposing ourselves as the storytellers onto the characters, right, And if 511 00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:25,400 you do that too much, the audience feels it and it doesn't feel right. 512 00:39:28,039 --> 00:39:30,960 Yeah, yeah, and it's a and you can imagine like you could 513 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:36,880 also you can imagine it too that as the person telling the story, you're 514 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,559 like, well, this is what I want people to get from this story. 515 00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:43,840 And so the danger, of course is that that's what you want, 516 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,039 so you make it too explicit, and then by the time you make it 517 00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:51,760 too explicit, you you haven't succeeded because nobody cares about the story anyways. 518 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,960 And so it's like you've lost if you try to make your point or whatever 519 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,000 it is you think you're you're you're making and so the and so what happens 520 00:40:00,039 --> 00:40:04,480 I think too, it's like you if you remain in story mode and in 521 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,039 the kind of story puzzle mode where you have these factions and characters that play 522 00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:12,360 off each other, that balance each other out, you know that that relate 523 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,639 to each other in ways. That is it is in the puzzle of the 524 00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:19,920 story. I think what it does too, is that it can make someone 525 00:40:20,159 --> 00:40:23,719 say something deeper than what they're capable of. Yeah, I do think that 526 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:30,079 that you could just see it starting to emerge, like like somehow you just 527 00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:31,679 stumble across it and you're like, oh my gosh, that's so much deeper 528 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:37,880 than then we could have even like constructed. It just starts to kind of 529 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:43,039 happen. It's like things start lining up. You know that the things are 530 00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:45,239 starting to line up, and it just kind of flows. It's strange, 531 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,679 but it happens. If you don't fight it though, somehow, like that's 532 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,239 the you have to almost get yourself out of the way as the as the 533 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,280 storyteller, it's almost like a conduit. You have to kind of shepherd it, 534 00:40:58,599 --> 00:41:00,679 but you can't get in a way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 535 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,960 no, it seems like that. I think you're You're totally right. And 536 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:10,639 that's why sometimes like the best storytellers, and this is true like in terms 537 00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:15,159 of music, in terms of all kinds of sometimes those you don't really want 538 00:41:15,199 --> 00:41:21,360 to hear the people tell you what it's about, because actually they don't really 539 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,559 know what it's about, or they think they know. But once you once 540 00:41:23,599 --> 00:41:28,719 you see, you're like, well, what you're saying is actually reducing the 541 00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,719 movie or the song or whatever, like the reason why people actually care about 542 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:37,920 it. That's it. That's it. And so in some ways that the 543 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:43,360 storyteller is almost like a it's like an antenna almost more than there's someone who's 544 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:47,519 just basically vibing in the puzzle and is able to put it out there, 545 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:52,199 but it doesn't even necessarily understand it. It's not even to their own to 546 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,920 their own merit sometimes that that they're able to that they've been able to do 547 00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:00,199 something like that. Yeah, I think so then the mus idea becomes way 548 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,360 more coherent, Like we can kind of understand why the Ancients and not just 549 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,039 the Pagans, the Christians too, you know, in the Middle Ages and 550 00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:13,800 even in the Renaissance, people were still invoking the Muse before they started because 551 00:42:14,199 --> 00:42:19,400 in some ways knew that doesn't totally come from you. Yeah, there's like 552 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,360 you kind of have, yeah, and you're like some sort of conduit you 553 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,840 have. You just kind of have to shepherd in. And I think the 554 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,960 more you do it, the more you kind of, you know, recognize 555 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:36,960 where you're inserting yourself and where you're just letting things flow to a certain extent. 556 00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:38,719 And you know, you've been creative. I don't know, I've been 557 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:44,840 in creative rooms. You know that there's a certain flow that happened in the 558 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,639 papers too. Things just go back and forth and they just kind of go 559 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,880 and there's ones where it's just like, oh, I can't say that, 560 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,800 well, well that's that you know, you just start putting blockades up in 561 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,800 your own mind, you know, like they're not going to like that or 562 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,639 this, that and the other. So that's true. I mean, I 563 00:42:58,679 --> 00:43:02,639 mean when you when you are creating something and there's that flow, like really 564 00:43:02,679 --> 00:43:07,559 the way that John Ravagki talks about it, there really is this the logos 565 00:43:07,639 --> 00:43:14,599 right that Johnny also brings up, which is that in the end, the 566 00:43:14,599 --> 00:43:17,280 there's more than what you thought was possible. There's definitely more than what you 567 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:22,159 could have done on your own, and that's really precious. I mean, 568 00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:25,800 if you can have that, it's quite rare and it's really precious. And 569 00:43:27,079 --> 00:43:30,480 that's probably you know, like you talked about the like the early Pixar movies 570 00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:36,039 or even the early Disney movies or you know, other projects like that, 571 00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:38,440 where there was probably some of that going on, Like there was just this 572 00:43:38,599 --> 00:43:45,039 really bubbling thing where the ideas just gibed and everything was just kind of falling 573 00:43:45,079 --> 00:43:49,599 together in a way that was that was intuitively right, you know, right, 574 00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:52,880 I mean I think like to use like I mean, I don't know, 575 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,519 but like early Disney as example, I think Walt Disney and his brother 576 00:43:58,159 --> 00:44:05,360 were kind of like the business people, like protecting their little pie of creatives. 577 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,880 And they had they they amassed all these great creatives, but and they 578 00:44:08,599 --> 00:44:14,119 they interfaced with like I'm sure they were hustling to try to get money and 579 00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:17,119 funding to keep this thing going, right, but they were also protecting their 580 00:44:17,119 --> 00:44:21,000 little hive of artists, you know, and trying to give them like the 581 00:44:21,039 --> 00:44:23,719 best that they could. And they also were visionary, like we're gonna need 582 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:27,400 this and this is gonna be great, and so they're yeah, they're like 583 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:32,320 shepherding the creative process and moving it forward. You know, for sure, 584 00:44:32,159 --> 00:44:38,639 there's something unreasonable about those early Disney movies. I mean when I remember just 585 00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:42,280 a few years ago, I watched Pinock again and I was looking at watching 586 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:47,239 that animated waves and I was thinking, this is completely unreasonable, Like how 587 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:52,119 the hell did they? How did that? How did they? Who did 588 00:44:52,159 --> 00:44:54,719 this? Like who animated the water? Like just and it's all you know, 589 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:59,920 it's all hand done and everything, and they's just something so completely unreasonable 590 00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:05,559 about about it. And but also this you can just feel the absolute care 591 00:45:05,599 --> 00:45:08,119 and love, like like if you're looking at a hand crafted violin or something, 592 00:45:08,599 --> 00:45:12,480 right, yeah, and that they create, you know, and like 593 00:45:12,559 --> 00:45:15,800 early picks are they created, they had they were visionary, and they wanted 594 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,679 to tell the story and they wanted to do it with such cure that they 595 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:25,079 created technology like really like people that can help them to do these things. 596 00:45:25,079 --> 00:45:29,519 And that's kind of where like you know, early picture will talk about like 597 00:45:30,519 --> 00:45:35,280 art it pushes on technology and technology helps the art and it kind of they 598 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,480 kind of move forward together because sometimes the artists can't cite, you know, 599 00:45:39,639 --> 00:45:43,599 they can't they don't have the tools to create what they want, and so 600 00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,320 that the technological people will come in and help them create. Like the multiplying 601 00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,679 camera, like that wasn't the thing, right, you know, and they 602 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,599 created that to do snow white so that they could get these the feeling of 603 00:45:54,679 --> 00:46:00,519 these you know of one layer moving play it that way so you like a 604 00:46:00,599 --> 00:46:04,960 camera moving and you know, all this stuff and gain depth and beauty to 605 00:46:05,079 --> 00:46:07,639 the shots of the platal product, you know, like, but they didn't 606 00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:12,239 have that before they had to create that. Yeah, so I'm gonna I 607 00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,360 think I think maybe I'll end with the dark question. Sorry, end with 608 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:20,239 the dark question. But the so AI is all abuzz and everybody's talking about 609 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,960 AI and you can see, you know, the different software, the different 610 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:30,239 platforms that are like stable Diffusion and amid Journey and all these platforms that are 611 00:46:30,679 --> 00:46:37,239 kind of pushing on us. Uh. And so what do you think in 612 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,880 terms of as we watched this kind of these technologies, massive technological innovations down 613 00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,679 the coming downstream, how do you see the future of this like of animation, 614 00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:54,119 of creative storytelling in relationship to these these tech tools that are just coming 615 00:46:54,159 --> 00:46:59,440 down very fast. Well, honestly, I don't know that much about it. 616 00:46:59,519 --> 00:47:01,880 Yeah, you put understand more than I do. I really don't understand 617 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,559 that much about it. But I think I think it's I tend to think 618 00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:09,920 it's a kind of a hack, you know, like people, it's also 619 00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:15,360 robbing people of something, right, Like there's a certain amount of like gratification, 620 00:47:15,559 --> 00:47:22,079 and that happens when you put in the time too to do something and 621 00:47:22,159 --> 00:47:25,039 you can, you overcome, and you overcome, and then you put you 622 00:47:25,079 --> 00:47:28,679 have something. You're like, wow, that looks great, you know. 623 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:34,679 But now people are like using AI to get there faster. And I'm you 624 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:38,239 know, I'm not about like not getting something faster, you know, like 625 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:45,840 to a certain degree. But you're like robbing people of excellence in a certain 626 00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:49,079 sense, you know, by giving it to the machine and giving it to 627 00:47:49,159 --> 00:47:53,239 some program or something that like, you know, if you spend hours dry 628 00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:58,800 and really honing your crack, that can't be taken away from you, right, 629 00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,719 that can't be taken away from that's something that you've put in the attention 630 00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:07,760 and the time to do. And I think AI kind of roobs people of 631 00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:14,039 that, you know, like that handcrafted things so valuable. I think it 632 00:48:14,159 --> 00:48:21,039 devalues some things if it was just a machine algorithm. And what do you 633 00:48:21,039 --> 00:48:24,280 think of the idea that in some ways like the best way to frame it 634 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:31,280 is something like care and attention in the sense that even though the computer might 635 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:37,559 bring to us like technically proficient images that will be very fast to produce and 636 00:48:37,599 --> 00:48:45,320 will be visually stunning and surprising and all that, ah, but that because 637 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:50,599 it's so easy, the type of care and attention you would need in order 638 00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:57,360 to create something that people will love, well, like you won't. It's 639 00:48:57,360 --> 00:49:00,519 like as if you won't have to put that in there because it can happen 640 00:49:00,559 --> 00:49:08,480 so fast, and that will necessarily affect the result, and it will necessarily 641 00:49:08,519 --> 00:49:15,079 affect the perception that people have of that result as well. But I think 642 00:49:15,079 --> 00:49:16,960 people can tell for sure, Like you said, I think people can perceive 643 00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:23,000 that something doesn't have that level of care and attention, you know that, 644 00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:28,519 and that I feel like it's just gonna you know, some people will be 645 00:49:28,559 --> 00:49:30,960 like, oh, it's great, But then when something comes out that really 646 00:49:30,039 --> 00:49:36,199 has the creed attention. People are gonna like walk on to it because they 647 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:40,000 can. I think we're just built to notice things like that. You know, 648 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,039 I don't know, well, I mean, we're artists. It's hard 649 00:49:44,159 --> 00:49:47,920 for me to know how objective I am. But for sure, like now 650 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,519 I've seen in the past six months, I would say maybe a little more. 651 00:49:52,000 --> 00:50:00,519 I've seen a huge percent of ads online get replaced by mid Journey images, 652 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:07,079 and I not only can I tell, but there's something about it, 653 00:50:07,159 --> 00:50:09,840 Like there's something that I don't know how to explain it. There's something about 654 00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:15,159 those images that are boring, even though they're all stunning and they have all 655 00:50:15,199 --> 00:50:21,880 the right light angles and they have this kind of perfection. There's something about 656 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:29,920 a lot of these images that are boring and repulsive to some extent. And 657 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:31,760 so I mean, I'm curious if it's just because I'm an artist and I 658 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:35,320 can tell, and I'm like, it's like, oh, please another mid 659 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,119 journey image. Like if I just scroll down my Facebook, whatever thing or 660 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,880 all I see or just a bunch of mid journey generated ads, and people 661 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,440 use it for thumbnails too. On YouTube. A lot of people are using 662 00:50:46,519 --> 00:50:51,320 mid journey for thumbnails on YouTube, and there's something about it that is just 663 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:57,599 not that I find very uninteresting, but it's almost like something really flashy at 664 00:50:57,599 --> 00:51:00,480 the flashy, really fat, Like it's just it's flashy, you know, 665 00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:06,840 but then it it wears off really fast. Yeah. I mean I'm also 666 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,159 artist, so I probably have a similar like mindset to you. Like I'm 667 00:51:09,199 --> 00:51:14,719 also like, uh, my eye is really attracted to things that are like 668 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:20,400 hand crafted or there's something I don't know, something just something nicer about, 669 00:51:20,599 --> 00:51:23,440 you know, like handcrafted things, and I I cann't have like like oh 670 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,280 look at the neg what And then I'm like, oh, look it's really 671 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:32,320 expensive, and then a reason and you're like I've got it. But yeah, 672 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:37,559 and a long time ago I turned off to most of the like comic 673 00:51:37,559 --> 00:51:39,920 book movies because it's like, oh, same thing again, it's like flashy 674 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:43,480 flash if actually it is like the same thing in my mind just kind of 675 00:51:43,519 --> 00:51:47,159 shuts it down. I don't know if everybody will be like that, you 676 00:51:47,199 --> 00:51:52,440 know, but I do think that if you create something uh that is really 677 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:58,199 good quality and appeals to people it's not like high artsy or whatever, then 678 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:04,119 it will attract their attention. You think people are just built to see things 679 00:52:04,159 --> 00:52:07,519 like that, like the early Picks movies or the early Disney movies, like 680 00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:09,599 things like that, Like people are drawn to them, you know, and 681 00:52:09,639 --> 00:52:16,039 they they withstand on time. Yeah, definitely, definitely. So well, 682 00:52:16,079 --> 00:52:22,119 thanks for your time, Kenda, I appreciate it. That's great. Next 683 00:52:22,199 --> 00:52:24,360 year, February twenty ninth to March second, we are going to have the 684 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:29,800 very first Symbolic World Summit in tarp And Springs, Florida. There'll be some 685 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:31,920 amazing speakers. Of course I'll be speaking, but there will also be Father 686 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:37,639 Stephen de Young of Lord of Spirit's Fame. You will also find their Martin 687 00:52:37,639 --> 00:52:40,960 Shaw, who's a mythographer and amazing storyteller, but a bunch of other people 688 00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,119 too. Of course, Richard Rowland will be there, Nicholas Kotar, Neil 689 00:52:45,159 --> 00:52:47,280 the Great, and Dirt por Robbins are actually going to play a concert. 690 00:52:47,679 --> 00:52:52,320 They'll also be Vesper Stamper, but also a lot of other people involved in 691 00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:58,000 the Symboc World community will come together to explore how we can recover rediscover the 692 00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:01,199 ancient cosmic image. But it'll also be a time for people to connect together, 693 00:53:01,559 --> 00:53:06,199 to meet in real time, in real space, develop relationships, you 694 00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:09,320 know, find people thinking in the same line as we are to further this 695 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:14,440 community and to further this type of thinking in the world. So I'm really 696 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:19,519 looking forward to meeting you in person in Tarpan Springs February twenty ninth, so 697 00:53:19,599 --> 00:53:20,840 hopefully see you there