WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:12.759 Hello, folks, Welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today we are 2 00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:17.160 talking about June Part two, and I'm so happy to say this is probably 3 00:00:17.160 --> 00:00:20.960 gonna be the first of a number of episodes we're doing about this movie and 4 00:00:21.239 --> 00:00:25.079 story and all the many aspects to it. And I can't think of anyone 5 00:00:25.160 --> 00:00:30.519 better to kick off our conversations with than Professor Matthew Kapell. As we have 6 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:35.280 learned by the many times Matthew has been on this podcast, Professor Capell is 7 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:41.520 an expert in anthropology, mythology, basically anything athology. We seem to be 8 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:46.399 able to find some expertise from the good Professor, and as it seems that 9 00:00:46.439 --> 00:00:49.960 your campus is one of the few in this country that's not currently being torn 10 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:54.079 apart by protesters, go protesters, Netphew, I'm so glad to have you 11 00:00:54.159 --> 00:00:57.000 here. Oh, thank you, Matthew. It's really nice to be here. 12 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:00.840 This is an incredibly important book and I think a great so I'm kind 13 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:04.959 of excited. Awesome, awesome. Well, and so let me start just 14 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:10.519 by saying maybe the again, Well, let me start just by asking before 15 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:12.680 we even talk about the movie. As I know you have read this book, 16 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:15.840 and I think the book series many many times, tell me more about 17 00:01:15.879 --> 00:01:19.680 your your why you love this book, why you think it's so important. 18 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:26.799 So sometimes you think books are really important because of where they fall in your 19 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:30.480 own life. I would say, and I first read Dum when I was 20 00:01:30.519 --> 00:01:36.359 in sixth grade and probably didn't understand a word of it. It was very 21 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:38.159 much over my head. And every single time I've read it since then, 22 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:42.680 I've been more knowledgeable about Islam. And every single time I've read it since 23 00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:47.200 then, I've been more aware of how much Islam is in this book, 24 00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:52.799 and it makes it just an amazingly good book. To me. It's it's 25 00:01:53.680 --> 00:01:57.640 and it manages to pull it off quite well, even though it more or 26 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:05.239 less plagiarizes a number of sources. I think it's an utterly fantastic novel and 27 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.319 also the same novel that has my I think I'm going to say all time 28 00:02:08.400 --> 00:02:14.840 favorite final line of my novel. So so it means a lot to me. 29 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:19.719 I can see that. I can see that well, and that's great 30 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.520 because you know, with superherothics now we're trying to move away from just doing 31 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:27.439 like reviews and overall views and really trying to dig down on specific topics, 32 00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:30.919 and with this one, we're gonna be digging down on a couple of different 33 00:02:30.960 --> 00:02:35.560 directions with with this movie and this book, and I imagine that every episode 34 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:38.560 we're gonna, you know, cover some of the same ground. But Matthew, 35 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.120 I especially wanted to get you on because, like I know that you 36 00:02:42.159 --> 00:02:45.599 have put so much thought into and we had so many great discussions about religion, 37 00:02:45.719 --> 00:02:50.479 about mythology, about destiny and the way those things play out, and 38 00:02:50.520 --> 00:02:54.000 that is obviously a huge part of this movie and this story, and at 39 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.599 a point that I think often gets you know, there's a lot of controversy, 40 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.280 not even controversy, but a lot of a discussion about what does Robert 41 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:02.560 mean and how does the movie convey it and all that kind of stuff. 42 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:06.280 So let me just start by for those who have not been lucky enough to 43 00:03:06.319 --> 00:03:08.599 hear you before, can you just give like the thirty second you know your 44 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:14.599 background in questions of mythology and religion and all that sort of thing. Certainly 45 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:20.039 so. My name is Matthew Cappell. I'm an anthropologist and a historian. 46 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:24.719 My PhD is in American studies, though and the area I've studied mostly from 47 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:30.960 myth is contemporary stories. My PhD work, which can get published is about 48 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:34.560 the myth of the frontier in the nineteen sixties, so it's about NASA and 49 00:03:34.680 --> 00:03:38.840 Vietnam and Star Trek so very much. I'm a historian, and when I 50 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:43.080 look at June, I think history as much as mythology. But I've looked 51 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:47.840 at everything from Star Trek and Star Wars as myth to Batman as myth, 52 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:53.360 and thinking about the way we use myth to create meaning in our lives is 53 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:59.360 the area I'm mostly interested. Yeah, And I think that's so interesting because 54 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:02.639 I think that one of the key elements of this book and something of the 55 00:04:02.680 --> 00:04:08.120 second part of the movie really drives home, is that not only is it 56 00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.159 like I think, a lot of times you get a story where there just 57 00:04:12.479 --> 00:04:16.600 is existing mythology and the characters are figuring out how they respond to that. 58 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.079 This one, though, is going a lot deeper, because you know, 59 00:04:21.160 --> 00:04:26.439 one of the central themes is okay, but where is mythology? You know, 60 00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:29.360 instead of just saying like, oh, you know, the Chosen One 61 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:32.720 will come or whatever it is, there's a real discussion over some of the 62 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:39.240 characters in this book fully believe and in the movie fully believe in prophecy. 63 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:44.160 Some of them are aware that prophecy and mythology were not just you know, 64 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:49.839 naturally occurring, but were very intentionally seated in some ways, and some characters 65 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:54.519 therefore want to act on it, and some characters are very hesitant about that. 66 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:57.680 How do you feel about this kind of book taking that like second step 67 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:02.399 into these questions. I think that's name strength of the book. We are 68 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:06.759 really good in our culture, and we have been for more than a century 69 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:14.639 at doing savior narratives, and this is because of the broad influence of Christianity 70 00:05:15.279 --> 00:05:21.399 and this book. Well, adhre's to a quote from Frank Herbert that he 71 00:05:21.439 --> 00:05:27.519 makes much later, which is I wanted people to be afraid of charismatic leaders. 72 00:05:28.920 --> 00:05:34.600 And I think that's exactly what both films are about a charismatic leader becoming 73 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:41.360 charismatic and becoming not the good guy as a result. And it does a 74 00:05:41.399 --> 00:05:45.079 great job in discussing that. At the same time, it does a great 75 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:53.439 job at discussing from almost a Marxian perspective, how myth is a tool used 76 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:59.000 to control people. And if you're I would say, here's a quote for 77 00:05:59.160 --> 00:06:05.319 my PhD. The Unexamined myth is not worth believing. M say more about 78 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:12.399 that we all have myths. Let's define myth is an ideology, a point 79 00:06:12.399 --> 00:06:15.480 of view, and a story, so an ideology and narrative form. And 80 00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.600 if we don't think about them, if we just accept them, suddenly we 81 00:06:19.680 --> 00:06:24.839 are just accepting all of the things that myth reinforces, like gender roles, 82 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:33.920 like class systems, like notions of good police forces as being heroic in their 83 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:39.519 activities even when they break the rules. And when we think about myth, 84 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:44.639 think about stories that give us points of view, we have to think about 85 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:48.759 what that means to us, or we don't change anything in our contemporary society. 86 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:53.319 Considering how many people are camping out on campuses right now, trying to 87 00:06:53.399 --> 00:07:00.720 change things in our contemporary society is very much about myth. Yeah, you 88 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:02.800 know, I think that makes a ton of sense. And you know, 89 00:07:02.959 --> 00:07:10.079 one of the things that I've often thought about on it kept striking me how 90 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:13.879 incredibly relevant this book is today and this movie is today. And to me, 91 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:15.519 that's one of the best things I can say about a lot of great 92 00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:17.639 science fiction. And you know, I think, like a lot of books 93 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:20.600 from its time, there are parts of it that haven't aged as well, 94 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:26.079 and that I think that the movie did a much better job of updating. 95 00:07:26.160 --> 00:07:29.120 And we'll talk about more of that in a different episode, but you know, 96 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:33.439 just the way that the book shows that the Harconins are, you know, 97 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:39.240 horrible and terrible, pretty homophobic and fat shaming, and they kind of 98 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:42.240 make it a lot better, I think, in the movies, but but 99 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.279 still just the like you know, if you think about all of the myths 100 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:47.439 that are today being challenged, the myths about what does gender mean, and 101 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:51.759 the myths about you know, what is America and was America great in the 102 00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:57.639 past or can it be great in the future. I know I've spoken with 103 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.279 a lot of my Jewish relatives who were you know, people who were born 104 00:08:01.480 --> 00:08:05.839 and came of age in the forties and or fifties, and they learned the 105 00:08:05.879 --> 00:08:11.519 myth of Israel. It's this wonderful, shining beacon. And maybe there was 106 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:13.800 a lot of truth to it at the time, maybe there wasn't, but 107 00:08:13.839 --> 00:08:16.199 there certainly is a lot of people wrestling with it now. And our whole 108 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.439 country I think is wrestling now with how do we see you know, brave 109 00:08:20.439 --> 00:08:22.680 little Israel and things like that, And I think the way that happens all 110 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.920 over the place. You know. I love how you point out, like 111 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:31.800 the myths of Star Trek and things like that. You know, every time 112 00:08:31.360 --> 00:08:37.080 you get a character who's cast in a new way, you know, there's 113 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:39.279 the myth of well, but wait, Star Trek is supposed to always have 114 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:43.159 been this, whether it's it was always the most liberal thing in the world, 115 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.000 and so we can't critique it. Or no, it was always all 116 00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:48.600 about straight white men, and so why are all these women running around or 117 00:08:48.600 --> 00:08:58.080 stuff like that. I completely agree. And so here's where we stand in 118 00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:01.039 America right now, where in the middle some social upheople that might change the 119 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:09.159 outcome of an election pretty soon. And most of that social upheople is revolving 120 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:18.960 around the way we think of Israel and Palestine and human rights and the inalienable 121 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:24.399 human rights and what a shining city on I know, actually means. And 122 00:09:24.440 --> 00:09:28.480 these are things that need to be examined. My undergraduate degree is from the 123 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:33.399 University of Michigan at Dearborn. In Dearborn, Michigan, which is the most 124 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:41.279 Arab American city in the United States. It is incredibly diverse in its Arab 125 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:48.559 population, but it is full of Arabs and Palestinians and Egyptians and some Persians 126 00:09:48.480 --> 00:09:54.200 very soon a lot of Shia too. And the University of Michigan Dearborn is 127 00:09:54.240 --> 00:10:01.519 not having protests right now because because they don't feel they need to. Everybody 128 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:09.480 knows what they think. Yeah, so well, and and I probably, 129 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:11.679 I promise we'll get back to Dune in a second. I just want to 130 00:10:11.679 --> 00:10:15.240 add one more thing that I think, certainly I am going through, and 131 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.240 I think a lot of other people who are the children of people who were 132 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:22.919 in college and the sixties are going through. I grew up with the mythology 133 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:24.960 of the sixties, you know, and of you know. I know my 134 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:28.080 mother was at Columbia the last time they had protests like this, and she 135 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.960 always told me, you know, and growing up, I remember saying to 136 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.960 her like, oh, you know, I wish I was living through a 137 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:37.519 time like that, and she'd be like, you know, be careful. 138 00:10:37.559 --> 00:10:41.120 It's not as pretty as it's often made out to be, you know, 139 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:43.159 the kind of wonder yearsifacation of that era. And I think a lot of 140 00:10:43.200 --> 00:10:46.159 us today are like, oh, yeah, no, this is this is 141 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:48.440 much uglier. All right. Well, getting back to the book, then, 142 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:58.399 let's talk about what is the role of mythology in shaping a people, 143 00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:01.559 because I think one of the things that is really central to this book and 144 00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:05.960 especially to part two of the movie, is the role that mythology plays for 145 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:11.320 the Fremen in like their their identity of themselves and of course all the ways 146 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:16.559 they react to Paul and Jessica. We'll get it to the specifics, but 147 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.080 just talk a little bit in general, like what is it that mythology does 148 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:24.720 in terms of you know, national or group or whatever it is self identity. 149 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:30.159 Well, what mythology does is it gives you a system of shared stories 150 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.559 that provide me to your group, that the group that you're part of. 151 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:43.559 So let's make it simple. New York Jets fans have a mythology, and 152 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.840 that mythology makes them New York Jets fans. And when they meet other New 153 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:52.159 York Jets fans, they have that shared mythology which gives them much shared vocabulary, 154 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:58.480 which gives them an instant friendship and camaraderie. And that's what myth does. 155 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.360 That is exactly the purpose of myth and exactly the power. Yeah, 156 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:09.919 and I don't know anything about football, but the New York Jets too. 157 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:16.600 They're really bad, right, Yes, And he's pointing out they're pointing out 158 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:18.840 that I am a New York Jets fan, and that's part of the conversation 159 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:22.480 here. But I think that's really important. And I also think that that's 160 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:24.759 actually a great way to get to an essential thing is here, is that 161 00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:28.639 you don't all have to agree on the myth. The fact is, if 162 00:12:28.679 --> 00:12:31.519 I meet a New York Jets fan and we start talking, you know, 163 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:35.080 we might start talking about was you know, name the best quarterback we've ever 164 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:39.559 had? Probably, but some people might disagree. We might start talking about 165 00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.159 was Rex Ryan a good coach? I happen to think he really was? 166 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:46.639 Other people have different views, or how do we remember Mark Sanchez? And 167 00:12:46.679 --> 00:12:50.840 the fact is many people may disagree with each other. But if I start 168 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:54.240 talking to someone who's not a Mets uh a Jets fan, like if I 169 00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.639 ask you, Professor Copell, what is your opinion on Mark Sanchez? You 170 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:01.600 and I are gonna be able to engage on that. And I'm guessing you 171 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:03.919 know, and so yeah, I think that that's a really key idea, 172 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:07.240 is that we can share a mythology. Ere I we don't always agree on 173 00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:11.120 it. Let's put it in explicitly religious terms. I don't know Mark Sanchez 174 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:16.840 is, by the way, but explicitly religious terms. And I don't mean 175 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.600 to be insulting of religion. I think of religion as a subset of myth. 176 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:26.759 There's lots of Christians who disagree with the exact nature with each other about 177 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:30.519 the exact nature of the Trinity. This doesn't mean they're not Christians. It 178 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:35.279 means they have different interpretations of what the Trinity is and how it worked and 179 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:41.480 what it's about. That discussion of what the myth does and why it's important 180 00:13:41.600 --> 00:13:48.840 that debate about what the Trinity is amongst Christians is a way that myth reinforces 181 00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:54.840 the broader scope of Christianity. It gives people who are Christians a thing to 182 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:58.639 discuss, the same way people who are Jets fans can discuss the only name 183 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:03.279 in Jets history I know to day and have an opinion. Yeah, and 184 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:09.200 you know, there's been a huge point in most of world history in which 185 00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:13.759 religious differences lead to death and destruction, But quite often it's just like casual 186 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:18.279 debate and proofs that you're both in the same group, and it's an in 187 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.919 group outgroup kind of thing, like, I think that's so true. You 188 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:26.600 know, many wars have been fought over literally, you know, is the 189 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:31.320 Trinity this, or is the Trinity that? Or is you know, who 190 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:33.720 is the right? Who is the true last prophet in Islam, or or 191 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:39.720 any of these things. At the same time, today United Methodist Church, 192 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:43.759 one of the largest of the global Protestant churches, is having their annual meeting 193 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:48.080 and and they're fighting really hard to find a way to acknowledge that they fundamentally 194 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.240 disagree on some topics, but to still hold themselves in communion with each other 195 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:56.759 because that's important to them. So, pulling all this back to Dune, 196 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:03.960 what is the role of methodlogy for the Fremen people. I'm going to answer 197 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.159 that, and especially in terms of let's let's let's focus on how it's expressed 198 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:11.960 in the movie. I'm going to step back from that just slightly. In 199 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:18.039 the beginning of my answer, So mentioned that one of the things you discussed 200 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:24.440 in a previous episode I think with your brother in law was the Muslim influence 201 00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:30.000 in June and how many of the words in the in the films and the 202 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:37.440 book are of Arabic origin, and that is all correct. But one of 203 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:41.519 the other places that June pulled from really in a way that most people had 204 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:48.480 who noticed think it was plagiarized, but most people don't really pay attention to 205 00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.360 is a book that came out in nineteen sixty called The Sabers of Paradise, 206 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:58.360 which was by a British travel writer named Leslie Branch And I want to call 207 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:02.480 it a history, and it's a history of the Chechen wars of independence in 208 00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:07.919 the middle of the nineteenth century against the Russians. It is a history of 209 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:15.759 the Imam Chamil fighting Bizarist Russia in the middle for Chechen and Muslim Chechen independence, 210 00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:25.720 and the way the war was constructed was along the lines of Muslim mythology. 211 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:33.440 And the book itself is the plot of Doom. I mean it has 212 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:38.279 direct quotes from the book are in June. In June somewhere it says wisdom 213 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:42.879 comes from the cities, and Polish comes from the cities, and wisdom from 214 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:49.240 the desert. And then savors of Paradise it says Polish comes from the cities 215 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.200 and wisdom from the mountains. I mean, it's like that direct They have 216 00:16:53.320 --> 00:17:00.200 the exact same quotes leading into the discussion of Awadziv versus Chamil, and all 217 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:04.160 of the words that they use that aren't Arabic are Chechen words. The names 218 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:11.640 of their their knives are kinjohal. That's a Catchen Chechen kind of knife that 219 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:18.599 that was worn. Shamil calls bizarre in Russia, not the bizarre, tells 220 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:27.319 him to patashap the the definition of a regional governor to the Chechen's was a 221 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:33.279 syridar, and technically the title of the baron harcone and is syridar baron. 222 00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:38.519 I mean, this book is just utterly stolen from and I will I will 223 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:47.720 put it this directly. There is a moment when Shamil, this great Muslim 224 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:52.279 leader who's building on a Muslim mythology of what it means to rebel against non 225 00:17:52.359 --> 00:18:06.039 Muslims, says quite Branch says quite clearly to understand to begin writing about Shamil, 226 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:08.240 who says, we must first place him in his time, the first 227 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.839 half of the nineteenth century, and his place the mountains. The beginning of 228 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:15.400 the book Dune starts to begin your study of the life of Muad Dib, 229 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:18.359 then take care to first place him in his time born in the fifty seventh 230 00:18:18.440 --> 00:18:22.960 year of the Padisha Emperor on the fourth, and then take most special care 231 00:18:22.000 --> 00:18:27.279 to that you locate Muad Dib in his place to planet Arakis. It's basically 232 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:36.160 the same quote. And so when we talk about the mythology that's inherent in 233 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:38.519 June, and I can go on and on about all of the things that 234 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.880 are pulled from this book that end up in Dune and are in the movies. 235 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:48.839 It's not an Arab mythology. It's a Chechen and Dagistani mythology, which 236 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:52.519 is different than Arab mythology. And too many people spend a lot of time 237 00:18:52.559 --> 00:19:00.799 going, you know, this is about the lesn al Kayev, which it's 238 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:06.599 not really a term, and in Arabic Islam it's a Persia Islam. In 239 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:11.839 fact, it was used to describe a poet from Persia. So the Arab 240 00:19:12.039 --> 00:19:17.480 influencers are great, but they're not really as central as people keep making out. 241 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:25.599 And the Chechen mythology is very specific. The fight against the outsiders is 242 00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:30.640 a fight against the outsiders who don't share your religion, and in order to 243 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:38.440 win you must kill them all the the the Chechens who fought in this this 244 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:45.599 revolution that I think centually and were completely destroyed by it. Though the Chechens 245 00:19:45.599 --> 00:19:51.200 still talk about it. It's still part of their national mythology. They they 246 00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:55.759 add knife fights amongst each other all the time, and exactly the way they 247 00:19:55.759 --> 00:20:00.000 happen in Dune. In fact, in the novel Dune, those those those 248 00:20:00.160 --> 00:20:06.359 family fights are called canley, which is a Chechen word for fights among clans 249 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:11.039 that last three or four generations. And so this this is an essential mythology 250 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:17.440 to the Chechens that works this way, the fight against the outside other must 251 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:23.440 be a fight for our religion, thus making this fight a jihad or in 252 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:26.839 the words of the film, which I think was a pretty good change, 253 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:37.720 a cruse, and that mythology works in doing really really well because it's not 254 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.559 precisely a white savior narrative. It's important to remember that Parkhead has a finished 255 00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:51.519 name and Tradees, just to be clear on its origin, is a Greek 256 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:56.880 name. Paul is described as being olive scanned up number of times. The 257 00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:02.799 name Trades is derived from the the Greek name Atrius, who is the father 258 00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:10.200 of Agamemnon in the Iliad, and all of Atrius's descendants are known as a 259 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:15.599 trade Day. And I should say in later books they make clear that Leto 260 00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:19.240 it is because all of this is people from Earth, and it's made clear 261 00:21:19.240 --> 00:21:25.200 that Leto that the Holy Treats line is thought to be direct descendant of Agamemnon 262 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:27.799 in Greece, however many thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago. Yeah, 263 00:21:30.160 --> 00:21:36.559 yeah, makes a quick showing in the book God Emperor d and is 264 00:21:36.599 --> 00:21:41.119 just confused by what's going on, and kind of of course, yes, 265 00:21:41.400 --> 00:21:45.880 let me let me interrupt you there, because I can see where you're going 266 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:47.759 with other things. But there's so much I want to talk of it here 267 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:49.839 already. And I will say I knew none of that going in, and 268 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.319 I'm so glad you brought it up. I think it's so interesting that it's 269 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:57.640 never talked about, especially because I think this is important because I think some 270 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:02.039 people in me listening and thinking a minute, But isn't science fiction always, 271 00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:07.960 like, are often retelling of current situations or you know, historical situations in 272 00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.319 a new setting. And I think that is true, and I think that 273 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:15.079 for example, you know, many science fiction books are very clearly the Vietnam 274 00:22:15.119 --> 00:22:18.519 War but in space, or the Iraq War in space, or what's happening 275 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.880 now in Space, and I think that would definitely not be thought of as 276 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:26.119 plagiarism. That's just part of what science fiction does. But it's it's sort 277 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:30.279 of It would be more like if someone did a We're gonna tell Vietnam in 278 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.440 Space, but this Vietnam history book someone wrote, We're just gonna steal exact 279 00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:37.880 lines from it, and that's where the plagiar is exactly. The Vietnam and 280 00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:42.880 spacebook is the Forever War. But Jill Holdeman, which is which is also 281 00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:49.160 in my PhD work, and it is an amazing novel. Right now, 282 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:55.039 we have the Foundation series on the Apple TV. It's really bad, but 283 00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:59.160 that was based on the hoverse and fall of the Roman Empire. There's some 284 00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:04.400 way this kind of stuff usually works. I don't when I say I think 285 00:23:06.319 --> 00:23:11.319 Herbert plagiarized, I don't think he plagiarized, but not in a a truly 286 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:17.079 horrendous way. Because when you're basing a narrative on the resent fall of the 287 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:22.000 Roman Empire, which is a mythic structure, most of your readers know what 288 00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:26.799 the hell you're talking about. In this case, June readers didn't know anything 289 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:33.119 about this history, so just pulling the lines actually make the lines read more 290 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:37.200 true, and he admitted it. So I don't think I don't think it's 291 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.680 I don't think it's a negative form mode plagiarism in the way I would normally 292 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:48.240 take somebody out to shoot them for plagiarizing seriously, But you know, I 293 00:23:48.839 --> 00:23:52.400 but it is lines for Lyne quite often. There are poems in both books 294 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:59.359 that are almost identical. It's kind of weird listeners, if you know. 295 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:00.960 And I want to get lost in this question, but like, I'm gonna 296 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:04.319 do some research myself to see, like, you know, did Herbert say 297 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.000 like, oh, yeah, you should buy this other book? You know, 298 00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:10.119 like that's where I got all this from. Let's go back though, 299 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:12.039 to the Fremen people themselves then, so what do you see as the role 300 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:15.359 that mythology is playing for them in this movie? So let's talk about the 301 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:19.319 Fremen religion and how it derives from this book The Sabers of Paradise in many 302 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:26.720 ways but not completely. The Fremen religion is theoretically called zen Sunni, and 303 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:36.480 well, a lot of the religions in Doune are glomerations of existing religions on 304 00:24:36.559 --> 00:24:41.839 Earth today. So there's these zen Sunni wanderers. Somil and the Sabers of 305 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.680 Paradise is a Sufi, not a Sunni, And then that's a different kind 306 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:51.400 of Islam, but it's a more mystical one, in the way that Zen 307 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:55.359 is a more mystical version of Buddhism. So it works pretty well. And 308 00:24:55.759 --> 00:24:59.799 in the United States we tend to think of Sunni Islam as the more t 309 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:06.079 additional form of Islam, and Shia Islam is not. But that's a very 310 00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:11.240 orientalist way to put it. And Sunni Islam is a little bit more insular, 311 00:25:11.359 --> 00:25:17.759 I would say, and the freemen are a lot more insular. So 312 00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:22.559 the way their religion works for them is it creates a coherent sense of identity 313 00:25:22.599 --> 00:25:29.160 about who they are and why their lives suck so bad, and why that's 314 00:25:29.240 --> 00:25:36.160 good. Why the difficulty of living on Aracus, which is, you know, 315 00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:41.519 a planet twenty years from twenty light years from Earth and hot and without 316 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:48.200 water, why that is a They say that Aracus was created to test the 317 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.480 faithful is a line from the book. I think it's in one of the 318 00:25:51.480 --> 00:25:56.920 films. And so their religion becomes a thing that helps them build a sense 319 00:25:56.920 --> 00:26:02.680 of community. What's interesting about doing two is then they split that community really 320 00:26:02.720 --> 00:26:07.160 really quickly into the Southern fundamentalist and everybody else, which is not in the 321 00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:11.640 book. I mean, Paul, it goes south in the book to consume 322 00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:19.039 the water of life and become the Quizzzaderac. But there's no indication that those 323 00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:23.440 in the South are somehow more fundamentalist than their religion. And I think it 324 00:26:23.480 --> 00:26:30.400 was a genius move to change that. It was a beautiful not just because 325 00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:36.480 Southern fundamentalists scared the hell out of me, but because creating complexity in the 326 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:45.359 religion of the Fremin was a good idea because it created the ability to understand 327 00:26:45.400 --> 00:26:52.440 that religion in a less stereotyped way. I think that's really true. And 328 00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:56.240 again this is this is gonna be the specific topic of the second episode we 329 00:26:56.279 --> 00:26:59.759 do on this, but I think there's a lot of things, especially where 330 00:27:00.920 --> 00:27:03.680 there are points that you can get across to writing that I think are often 331 00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:08.519 harder to get across in film. And often that's like in writing, you 332 00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:15.039 go deep enough into a character's and a people's you know, understanding of themselves 333 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.119 that it's possible to sort of be critical of them. But on film, 334 00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:25.039 especially when we're not specifically told these are the bad guys. When people are 335 00:27:25.079 --> 00:27:27.920 saying, here's my ideology, like we kind of have been taught where that 336 00:27:29.000 --> 00:27:32.359 the movie is telling us it's okay to like these people. And I think 337 00:27:32.400 --> 00:27:37.839 that the by giving the idea that it's not all the Southerners, not everyone 338 00:27:37.920 --> 00:27:41.000 is like that, there are other people not only as you said, does 339 00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:44.559 it allow the idea that religions are not you know, monosyllabic, not mansollabic, 340 00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:47.839 monovocal, that they don't all speak with one voice, that there's controversy 341 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:51.599 internally, but it allows us the audience to sort of be like, oh, 342 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:53.559 okay, I wonder where I am in this because we're seeing two different 343 00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:57.640 sides represented. Matthew has to step away from just a second, so perfect 344 00:27:57.640 --> 00:28:02.519 time to do this. We're starting the conversation, but we want to hear 345 00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.400 from you. Send your thoughts, questions, or anything else you want to 346 00:28:04.400 --> 00:28:08.319 hear us discuss to feedback at the Ethical panda dot com or you can find 347 00:28:08.359 --> 00:28:12.079 us on Twitter, Instagram, or TikTok under the Ethical Panda. You can 348 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:15.160 even chat with us on discord or Facebook. Find those link in the show 349 00:28:15.160 --> 00:28:18.559 notes or on our website, The Ethical panda dot com and if you like 350 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:22.000 this content, you want to become a member. Your early access to add 351 00:28:22.039 --> 00:28:26.839 free episodes for all podcasts and the Ethical pan of Family, along with bonus 352 00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:30.640 content the end of most episodes, plus member only episodes, and it's just 353 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:33.880 five dollars a month or fifty five dollars for a full year. Sign up 354 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.839 the Ethical pana dot com or through the link in the show notes and now 355 00:28:37.079 --> 00:28:42.279 back to our episode. Welcome back. So the last thing I was just 356 00:28:42.279 --> 00:28:47.880 gonna say about why I think this Southern Northern break is so good? Is 357 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:51.880 it an Also, as I know you and I have talked about before, 358 00:28:52.279 --> 00:28:56.079 religion and mythology, especially when it comes to your people and others, is 359 00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:00.640 directly shaped by how much contact you're having with us. And one of the 360 00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:03.759 things that is never explicitly said, but I think you can easily derive, 361 00:29:04.119 --> 00:29:10.119 is that all the people who are in the South, they're not having any 362 00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:14.680 contact with harconins a that means they're not being actively oppressed by the harcones. 363 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:18.119 They're in a pretty terrible state in that the world is this total desert and 364 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:22.680 they have this dream of the greenlands that once were and can be again but 365 00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:27.680 they're not dealing with that active right now problem. And you know you said 366 00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:30.920 at the very beginning, and I think this is a common theme in critique 367 00:29:30.920 --> 00:29:37.359 of religion, especially messianic religions or religions where even it's not a messiah, 368 00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:41.440 but there's an idea of like time being linear and that you can suffer now, 369 00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:44.799 but that a better time is coming. That's a really good way to 370 00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:47.799 get people to accept suffering. And so it makes a lot of sense that 371 00:29:47.839 --> 00:29:49.440 the people in the more northern areas who aren't like, they have a lot 372 00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:52.599 of these beliefs, but they're not quite so locked into them, are a 373 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.720 lot more willing to say, no, we're not just gonna like passively accept 374 00:29:56.960 --> 00:29:59.960 Harconin rule. We're not just gonna passively accept all this. We're going to 375 00:30:00.119 --> 00:30:04.279 we're going to fight back. I'm not sure how you want me to comment 376 00:30:04.319 --> 00:30:11.400 to that, though, that is exactly true. But that's also the reasons 377 00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:18.319 that religions that posit a paradise in the future work so well, right, 378 00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:26.160 right, And that's what the Fremin hypothesize so uniquely. What's interesting compared to 379 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:34.640 existing religions and mostly the Abrahamic traditions, but the others as well. What's 380 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:40.000 interesting is they think they have to work at it, which I kind of 381 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:42.160 to wear about them. They're not just waiting for God to show up and 382 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:48.119 fix everything. They're capturing water and creating big cisterns of it so that they 383 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:53.799 can remake the face of Iracus so that it is green. What you don't 384 00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:57.559 find out in the films or in the first book is that the reason it's 385 00:30:57.599 --> 00:31:00.839 a desert planet is the worm and if you make it green, you get 386 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:06.000 rid of the worms, unless you get rid of the spice, which is 387 00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:10.480 problematic, but I appreciate the fact that they have to actually do the work 388 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:15.400 themselves right and certainly, and I'm not getting into whole religious analysis, there's 389 00:31:15.400 --> 00:31:18.359 a lot of people within Christianity at least and in some of the traditions who 390 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.160 do believe that. But that's another one of those power schubles. So with 391 00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.519 a fremen though again, I think a lot of people would just say, 392 00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:29.799 oh, yeah, so this myth, it just exists and we're not going 393 00:31:29.880 --> 00:31:32.759 to look at the origin of it all. But of course this book and 394 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:37.759 this part of the movie really establishes this isn't something that just naturally occurred within 395 00:31:37.799 --> 00:31:44.279 the Fremen talk about the Benagesterate and their role in seeding this mythology and this 396 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:49.880 religion. So we're going to have a a HBO. Sorry, they don't 397 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:53.400 exist anymore. A Max show called Sisterhood of Dune, I think, or 398 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:57.640 Dune the Sisterhood. It should be out next year. It is not based 399 00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:01.519 on the Frank Herbert novels. It's based on the novels of his son and 400 00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:07.640 Kevin J. Anderson. But it still looks good. Quick Aside, the 401 00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:13.519 producer tweeted not too long ago a picture of all of the books he's looking 402 00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:16.319 at as he's as they're writing episodes, and one of them is The Sabers 403 00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:22.680 of Paradise, which I thought was kind of awesome to see in the Dune 404 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:28.480 universe. The Duniverses, people call it the Beneges. A Rich and another 405 00:32:28.480 --> 00:32:34.200 group called the ben A tilly Lacs show up about ten thousand years before Dune 406 00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.000 happens. A lot of people have been saying this is ten thousand years in 407 00:32:37.079 --> 00:32:40.799 the future, but it's actually closer. The setting is closer to twenty thousand 408 00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:49.519 years in the future to the year ten thousand and one ninety one is a 409 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:54.480 different calendar than ours. It's ten thousand years after the Butlerian Jihad and the 410 00:32:54.519 --> 00:32:59.680 founding of the Space and Guild, and the Butlerian Jihad is when we got 411 00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:07.319 rid of all of the artificial intelligences. So at that time when interstellar travel 412 00:33:07.519 --> 00:33:12.200 but through the use of artificial intelligence, was disappearing and a new kind of 413 00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.559 inter centar travel had to be invented. It was invented by what became the 414 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:21.039 Spacing Guild using the Spice at the same moment that that's happening, because it's 415 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:24.599 a huge sihat, it's a huge war amongst multiple planets. It's an interesting 416 00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:30.160 side note that most of the places in Dune are about twenty light years away 417 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:37.319 from Earth in different directions, which I've always appreciated. And the Benegeseret are 418 00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:49.480 founded to be a semi secret power behind the system. Their existence is designed 419 00:33:49.880 --> 00:33:57.559 to manipulate religious beliefs for the purpose of extending the survivability of humanity across the 420 00:33:57.680 --> 00:34:02.599 universe, and they fail spectacularly at it. Because Paul shows up, and 421 00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:09.440 so I would like you to imagine the benejas It as kind of a sort 422 00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:15.079 of and again I'll go to Christian theology slash mythology. It's kind of a 423 00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:21.760 sort of Paul. That is Saul, you know, from the Bible that 424 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:28.239 rights we're talking about Saint Paul, the author in theory of the Epistles. 425 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:30.639 We're talking here about the Paul, the Paul of the Bible, the author 426 00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:37.000 of the Epistles, and like not paula trans And what Paul that Paul does 427 00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:42.320 is, you know, he reformulates what Christianity is to the early believers. 428 00:34:44.119 --> 00:34:47.760 Paul is also, as an aside, a really good way to mess with 429 00:34:47.840 --> 00:34:54.239 people who tell you that they're against the trans community because of the Bible, 430 00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:59.440 because you can just mention Saul and they'll go, you mean Paul, and 431 00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:02.559 you can go, oh, so people can change their names. It's perfect. 432 00:35:04.679 --> 00:35:07.599 But yeah, he reinvents what Christianity is. He makes it a far 433 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:12.960 more political tool. He's the reason we have a Catholic Church. He's a 434 00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.519 reason we have a Roman empire that turns to Christianity. He's a reason all 435 00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:22.039 of Europe and the circum Mediterranean world before Islam is Christian. And that's what 436 00:35:22.039 --> 00:35:29.119 the Benejeserit are doing. They're using the available religions to them to affect change 437 00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:34.320 in the cultural systems they want to control because they think their ability to control 438 00:35:34.679 --> 00:35:38.519 will be the ability to save humanity. But they need to be in charge 439 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:43.800 when they do it. And that's where the Paul of them films and the 440 00:35:43.880 --> 00:35:49.719 novel steps out, because he's not under their control. And I think that 441 00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:52.079 one of the real points here, and I think this is where Herbert is 442 00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:57.800 making some really important critiques of religion, is that, as I think, 443 00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:06.039 anytime someone says I am essential to this good thing happening, then now protecting 444 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:09.880 yourself becomes essential, and so any and all things you do to protect yourself 445 00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:15.119 are now morally justified. And you know, in the movie, we see 446 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:20.559 that the Manigestate are even if you like, you can say that their goal 447 00:36:20.559 --> 00:36:22.880 is to protect humanity, but they're willing to kill an awful lot of humans, 448 00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:28.400 you know, like they're perfectly happy with this psychotic, sociopathic that these 449 00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:31.760 different terms describe him fade, you know, as long as they can control 450 00:36:31.880 --> 00:36:37.400 him. And they're perfectly happy to keep the horrible situation Downdoon happening as long 451 00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.480 as they can control it. Where the idea being the suffering of the Fremen 452 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:45.960 is completely justified because it allows spice travel. And I think here's the real 453 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:50.239 essential part, and that the movie I think really shows and has Paul really 454 00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:53.440 driving in. We talked before about that part of the thing that keeps the 455 00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:58.679 freemen from like, you know, some of the Primin are open revolts, 456 00:36:58.679 --> 00:37:00.480 but some of the Frimen are like, no, we just need to wait, 457 00:37:00.519 --> 00:37:02.239 We just need to be We need to do our part. But but 458 00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:07.000 the Moa Deeb is no. So now the lean al Gibb is gonna come 459 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:12.239 and bring about everything so we don't have to do it ourselves. The Benajesorate 460 00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:15.599 told them that thousands and thousands of years ago, and the benajestrit have continued 461 00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:21.760 to tell them that, very much like the Catholic Church told you know, 462 00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.000 slaves and and and then the Protestant churches as well, or told the people 463 00:37:25.000 --> 00:37:29.079 in any land that was colonized of you know, don't worry about it. 464 00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:31.719 It seems like the good things are happening to Europeans and the bad things are 465 00:37:31.719 --> 00:37:36.159 all happening to you. Don't worry about it, because as long as you 466 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:38.480 are good and you obey your masters, you're gonna get to go to heaven 467 00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:44.599 and that's very much what the Benajester are doing here, and it's what what 468 00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:47.400 the nature of that control is exactly. And I love that the movie I 469 00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:51.599 think is like, compared to the nineteen eighty five movie, this movie is 470 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:59.239 so very clear about that what the Bena Jester are doing. I think this 471 00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:05.679 movie actually understands what Herbert's point was in a way that the nineteen eighty five 472 00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:13.719 movie didn't, and I think that's important, and I also think it's why 473 00:38:14.679 --> 00:38:20.679 having a third film would be an excellent move. There's a joke amongst Dune's 474 00:38:20.719 --> 00:38:24.440 fans that go in a number of different ways about the book Dune Messiah, 475 00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:29.679 which is the next book which comes out in nineteen sixty nine and is much 476 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:34.119 shorter than all of the other books, and it's essentially a book that is 477 00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:38.440 a per my last email. Book is a book that goes, if you 478 00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:43.280 didn't understand what Dune meant here, let me make sure you understand what Dune 479 00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:47.440 meant, You're wrong. He's not a hero. And it's overwhelmingly pointed in 480 00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:53.880 that and a number of people online apparently are very upset that Paul is not 481 00:38:53.960 --> 00:39:00.320 the hero, and they've all read Dune and it's kind of weird, but 482 00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:06.440 it does give us an indication of how very strong that hero's narrative is in 483 00:39:06.480 --> 00:39:10.639 our culture, that people want to see Paul like the nineteen eighty five Paul 484 00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:16.400 where he is the Krasatzider Rock bringing freedom to the Fremen or as Luke Skywalker 485 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:22.079 or something, and he's not that. He's a cautionary tale about why that's 486 00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:28.119 bad. And so Doune Mesaiah does that exactly. It goes no, no, 487 00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:31.760 no, no, you didn't get it. He's horrible now because he 488 00:39:31.880 --> 00:39:38.000 decides that he can justify whatever he does based on it's for the greater good. 489 00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:45.239 And in the in that novel, So, the Holocaust isn't really called 490 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:50.559 the Holocaust into the late fifties. It's usually called the show or the tragedy 491 00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:53.719 or something. But it starts to become called the Holocaust in the late fifties 492 00:39:54.920 --> 00:40:00.079 because of a book called While six Million Died, and it's a great book. 493 00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:05.559 I used to study the Holocaust a lot. And so in nineteen sixty 494 00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:12.159 nine, when Herbert specifies exactly how many people die in Paul's Jihad, it's 495 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:17.440 very specifically listed as sixty billion it's not fifty five billion, it's not sixty 496 00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:22.880 eight billion, it's sixty billion. In the way six million died was talking 497 00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:28.719 about the Holocaust, so you were supposed to get quite strongly through that that 498 00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:34.360 we're talking about somebody who's not on yours, on the side of the people, 499 00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:39.360 but is justifying his behaviors by saying he is. And I'll just say 500 00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:44.000 now again, with the movie really doing that so much better, I'm gonna 501 00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.840 say a lot more about this in the next episode. But I think it's 502 00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:50.159 why it is essential that Shawny is against all, yes, because that doesn't 503 00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:53.000 happen in the book, but I think it's because audiences need someone to root 504 00:40:53.079 --> 00:40:57.519 for, you know, and then it gives the audience a surrogate of someone 505 00:40:57.559 --> 00:41:01.159 to be against Paul, not necessarily root for, but just to see see 506 00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:07.800 that viewpoint exactly. Yeah, and yeah, I think that's what is part 507 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:12.800 of what is so fascinating about this is because you mentioned before that like calling 508 00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:15.760 it a white savior narrative is entirely accurate. And I like that they show 509 00:41:15.920 --> 00:41:22.000 great racial diversity among the fremen and and of course you know, uh god, 510 00:41:22.000 --> 00:41:29.280 what's the name of the actor who played Leto treats. It's Oscar Isaac, 511 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:32.800 you know. And of course uh Uh Timoy Schella may I think identifies 512 00:41:32.840 --> 00:41:36.760 as white. I'm not positive, but I know that you know his father 513 00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:40.360 uh uh Duke Leto, who's portrayed by Oscar Isaac, who's a Guatemalan. 514 00:41:43.000 --> 00:41:45.519 But if it's not a white savior, narrative is very much a colonizer. 515 00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:50.719 Narrative is very much the idea of that person from the outside, you know. 516 00:41:50.840 --> 00:41:53.239 And I here, actually I want I want to. I don't want 517 00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:55.840 to get too far into the church and thing, but I'm curious, is 518 00:41:55.960 --> 00:42:00.280 there a character in that history who is like a Russian who comes to be 519 00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:04.880 kind of like dances with wolves, with the with the Chechens and winds up 520 00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:08.440 being a heroic figure for Nope. And in fact, if one that again 521 00:42:08.519 --> 00:42:12.559 is if one showed up, they would not have accepted I want to say 522 00:42:12.639 --> 00:42:16.880 him, it just they would have killed him. In Dune Messiah and in 523 00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:22.159 the Savors of Paradise it's pointed out that their enemies are skinned alive and drums 524 00:42:22.199 --> 00:42:27.719 are made from their skins. That's the way they treated the Russians. The 525 00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:36.400 biggest diversions between the two books. Is that Shamil is locally born and and 526 00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:42.199 that's where at least part of his strength comes from. Right and and again 527 00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:46.480 you see that because yeah, left on their own, the Fremen probably would 528 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:49.599 have no idea of, oh, yes, we should, we should take 529 00:42:49.679 --> 00:42:52.239 up this, you know, look for the outsider, the one who is 530 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:58.719 not Fremen but his Fremen. But but of course it's again because the Benadjesterate 531 00:42:58.840 --> 00:43:02.119 have planted them. And they do that again very specifically because they want someone 532 00:43:02.159 --> 00:43:06.039 like Paul. It's just that they can't control Paul the way that they hold. 533 00:43:06.280 --> 00:43:09.960 Yes, so there is out there in the world. And I can't 534 00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:15.519 give you a direct site. A master's thesis on Dune that I read a 535 00:43:15.559 --> 00:43:16.960 number of years ago, and it's really great, and it has there's one 536 00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:22.199 line that I remember, which was something along the lines of what's strange about 537 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:25.400 Dune that we have to, you know, pay attention to is that it 538 00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:35.239 is incredibly respectful of Islam while at the same time being an orientalist narrative and 539 00:43:35.239 --> 00:43:39.360 and and and that is a product of when it was written, as much 540 00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:45.719 as the homophobia is a product of when it was written. And the fat 541 00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:51.320 shaming is a product of when it was written, Frank Herbert was a serious 542 00:43:51.360 --> 00:43:53.719 homophobic. He was a strange from his gay son for most of that son's 543 00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:58.840 adult life. He was he was, he was an dick about it. 544 00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:07.679 Sorry, and and and in the in the book, the baron is not 545 00:44:07.320 --> 00:44:14.920 his his size and his his sexuality is not presented quite as violently as it 546 00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:19.880 is in the film. In either of the films, his suspensers don't let 547 00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:23.119 him float. His suspensers let him kind of trapes around, bouncing from tiptoe 548 00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:30.599 to tiptoe through rooms in a very stereotypical gay kind of movement sort of way, 549 00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:36.519 is how it's described. And that's also a product of its time and 550 00:44:36.559 --> 00:44:45.239 a wonderful thing that gets changed in the films. So the whole point that 551 00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:51.559 that Aside started with was having Shani becomes the most important thing about the second 552 00:44:51.559 --> 00:44:55.000 film. First off, increasingly, I think Sandea is one of the best 553 00:44:55.000 --> 00:45:00.920 actors on Earth. Everything I've seen her in she is just completely believable and 554 00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:06.920 not Sendea and it's kind of weird, and she was utterly fantastic in this. 555 00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:14.119 And so my absolute favorite moment of the film, the one that drove 556 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:16.920 it home in a way that the message is not driven home in the novel 557 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:22.639 is effectively is that the fact the last moment of the film is like five 558 00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:29.199 seconds on her face, it is the most important moment. And I let 559 00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:34.360 me go into overwhelming detail. As I said at the beginning, my favorite 560 00:45:34.639 --> 00:45:40.119 ending line in any novel is the ending line in Dune. Mid century American 561 00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:45.760 science fiction had this long tradition of trick endings. I think of there's a 562 00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:51.159 Robert Heinlein short story in which a bunch of guys in a bar are arguing 563 00:45:51.199 --> 00:45:54.239 about whether or not we should be exploring space, and the guy who's running 564 00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.679 the bar is like, we definitely shouldn't. We've got everything we need. 565 00:45:57.719 --> 00:46:00.239 We need to work on what we were all already at. And then at 566 00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:04.440 the end of the short story you find out they're having this debate in a 567 00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:10.800 bar on the moon, thus right, Or the Arthur C. Clark short 568 00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:16.840 story The Star about the Jesuit priest who's completely overwhelmed by his research. Jesuit 569 00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:22.119 priests have to have doctoral degrees. Usually he's an astrophysicist, and he's on 570 00:46:22.159 --> 00:46:28.519 an interstellar mission to explore the remains of a nova, and as he exploited 571 00:46:28.920 --> 00:46:34.920 this nova destroyed an entire alien civilization, and then at the end he realizes 572 00:46:35.239 --> 00:46:40.360 it was also the star of Bethlehem. Those kinds of trick endings are very 573 00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:46.519 common in mid century American science fiction short stories. They don't happen in novels 574 00:46:46.519 --> 00:46:52.719 as much. But the ending of Doone, which I cite in classes on 575 00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:55.599 that I teach on writing all the time, is this. I'm going to 576 00:46:55.639 --> 00:47:00.960 quote it. It starts with a Jessica quote. Think God it Shanni, 577 00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:05.719 the princess will have the name it. She'll live is less than a concubine, 578 00:47:05.920 --> 00:47:08.559 never to know the moment of tenderness from the man to whom she's bound. 579 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:14.480 While we Shanni, we who carry the name of the concubine. History 580 00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:17.400 will call us wives. And that's the last line of the novel, and 581 00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:22.119 it changes the entire meeting of the novel. For me, it's problematic in 582 00:47:22.159 --> 00:47:28.559 that isory will call us wives is a sexist statement about there being defined by 583 00:47:28.599 --> 00:47:32.280 who they're related to, But it also changes the complete narrative of how you 584 00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:37.800 look at all of the women in the novel up until that moment. And 585 00:47:37.920 --> 00:47:40.679 I was terrified that this was going to be the thing I hated about Doom 586 00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:45.239 two. But the last two people you see in Doom two are Jessica and 587 00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:53.280 Shanni, and they're both just looking at their faces. And not only are 588 00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:58.679 these these last two, but the first boys you hear is Princess Irdolus. 589 00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:01.719 And in the books, like you get a little excerpts from the books, 590 00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:07.920 but excerpts from things that she wrote as like chapter headings, but overall, 591 00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:13.440 like I don't know if Frank Herbert had an X and he just like put 592 00:48:13.480 --> 00:48:16.559 all of his hatred towards that X into Princess Erdlin. But he hates this 593 00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:22.760 character and treats her horrifically through those books. And so to have her be 594 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.440 more of that leading voice, I think, you know, the narrative voice 595 00:48:25.480 --> 00:48:30.320 is really great. And Flance's Princess Hugh is also at Florence Pugh is also 596 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:32.800 amazing. The only other thing I would say also about what you said is 597 00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:37.360 I think it's so important to know we end with Chauni, but we end 598 00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:43.079 with her getting ready to ride a worm, because again, this whole thing 599 00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:46.719 has been about a battle of you know, what is what is the truth 600 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:52.000 that defines the Fremen people? And she is right now rejecting what everyone else 601 00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:57.199 is saying, is the true belief of the Fremen people that they're that the 602 00:48:57.519 --> 00:49:00.280 belief that has made them a people, that holds them together, that has 603 00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:04.719 helped them to win this great war, is all the things that she's rejecting. 604 00:49:05.599 --> 00:49:09.400 And so to them, she's rejecting being Fremen. And the first thing 605 00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:14.159 she does is what is just you know, like the thing Paul had to 606 00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:17.360 do to become truly accepted as Fremen writing a worm. And I just thought 607 00:49:17.400 --> 00:49:22.079 the parallel of that was so beautiful and made so much sense to understanding, 608 00:49:22.119 --> 00:49:25.880 like the depth of the struggle over what is the mythology of the Fremen people 609 00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:30.639 and how does it define who they are? And it leaves open the question 610 00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:34.440 of where she's going to go right, because she can't go south to the 611 00:49:34.519 --> 00:49:42.320 fundamentalists. She's got to and seech Tabor is destroyed. I forgot to mention 612 00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:45.800 both Seeche and Tabor are Tartar words that the Cossacks used. Both of them 613 00:49:45.840 --> 00:49:52.480 mean camp. They're both found in the sabers of Paradise. The Chechens are 614 00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:59.440 fighting the Tartars, the Cossacks, the Russian Cossacks who call their camps seeches 615 00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:06.400 and call their base camps tapers. So that's where the words come from. 616 00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:12.199 Yeah, And but she can't go there where she knows there are some people 617 00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:16.559 who agree with her because it's gone now. So the right the open endedness 618 00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:22.159 of where the hell is she going to go is also a beautiful moment as 619 00:50:22.199 --> 00:50:28.719 a statement about religion. When you realize that your face differs dramatically, who 620 00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:31.599 do you go talk to about it? Yeah? And in our bonus section 621 00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:35.079 from members, that fact that we're going to talk about is what we we 622 00:50:35.320 --> 00:50:38.840 want to see in a third movie and possibly more after that. We haven't 623 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:40.880 going on for a while. There's a lot of discussions we're going to have. 624 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:45.159 We're definitely gonna have Professor Keppa. We haven't had Professor Matthew back, 625 00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:49.199 as was Rob mackenzie, and as mentioned my brother in law, Steve Cox, 626 00:50:49.199 --> 00:50:54.679 who's also quite a scholar of both Islam and June. So Matthew, 627 00:50:54.760 --> 00:50:57.639 let me just ask you, is there any of the last comments you want 628 00:50:57.679 --> 00:51:00.599 to make about this book, about this movie especially, and like what has 629 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:05.480 to say about mythology, de in destiny and all of that. We live 630 00:51:05.519 --> 00:51:09.519 in a world in which our movies are basically hero narratives thanks to star Wars, 631 00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:19.639 and every single really important popular film follows the hero's journey now, depending 632 00:51:19.639 --> 00:51:23.840 on how it is chosen to be formulated. But we're all living in a 633 00:51:23.880 --> 00:51:30.480 world of Luke Skywalker's and NEOs, and I just want to jump in there 634 00:51:30.480 --> 00:51:31.840 for anyone who's about to say, but wait, not all movies are adventure 635 00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:35.679 movies. There's actually been some great writing down I'll see if I can find 636 00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:39.000 it on how even most rom coms today or movies like that. You know, 637 00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:43.880 if it's a movie about just a person's self actualization, it's still framed 638 00:51:43.880 --> 00:51:45.679 as a hero narrative. Here, if it's a movie about like will the 639 00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:50.199 character get the girl or get the guy, it's a hero narrative. So 640 00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:52.960 going on, So do to be clear, we're not just talking about like 641 00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:55.679 the Act, you know, the actual adventurers fighting against some bad Yeah. 642 00:51:55.679 --> 00:52:04.280 It's not always dragons. Sometimes it's the Devil Wears Prada yeah, and doubt 643 00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:09.599 yes. And too many of our movies are that way. And the two 644 00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:16.079 films that we have in Dune so far are not just criticizing religion or criticizing 645 00:52:16.159 --> 00:52:22.280 myth or criticizing the hero's journey. They're criticizing all of contemporary film as a 646 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:29.159 result. And I follow a number of Facebook groups in Dune, and man, 647 00:52:29.280 --> 00:52:31.559 they're all still angry about this film, and I'm like, it's spot 648 00:52:31.599 --> 00:52:38.280 on perfect because because it made you angry. So the last thing I would 649 00:52:38.320 --> 00:52:43.920 say is, yeah, that is that is essentially the point to to make 650 00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:52.079 us aware that thinking we have a chosen leader who can do no wrong is 651 00:52:52.280 --> 00:53:00.159 how we get Donald Trump. It just is so the unexamined myth is not 652 00:53:00.159 --> 00:53:05.079 worth it. And just to add a little about of balance, not that 653 00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:07.079 I'm saying that these two are equal in their badness, but I think it's 654 00:53:07.079 --> 00:53:12.199 also how we get people get so mad when we critique Obama for drone strikes. 655 00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:14.639 Yes, you know, it's the same kind of a thing. And 656 00:53:14.639 --> 00:53:16.440 and the other thing to me that I think is fascinating in what you're talking 657 00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:22.239 about is those people who are so mad, it's probably because they're more invested 658 00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:25.119 in the mythology of Doune that has been built up in their not the mythology 659 00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:29.920 in the story, but their mythology about the book that has been built up, 660 00:53:30.000 --> 00:53:34.000 rather than the textas health. Yeah exactly, you know, yeah, 661 00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:38.400 they see they I would go, I would bet that he took a list 662 00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:44.119 of like the hundred most angry, problematic, anti woke people in the in 663 00:53:44.199 --> 00:53:46.960 the Dune groups and then compared that to a similar list from a Star Trek 664 00:53:47.000 --> 00:53:52.320 group. There's gonna at least twenty three. Oh yes, unquestionably. And 665 00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:57.320 man, they're so mean about Zendea. It really is upsetting. The I'm 666 00:53:57.360 --> 00:54:01.360 not being racist, she's just a bad actress statements. Yeah, it's like, 667 00:54:01.480 --> 00:54:07.440 no, no, actually, you are being racist. And everything that 668 00:54:07.519 --> 00:54:12.519 was changed from the book is wrong because it's not homophobic and because it's not 669 00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:17.880 sexist is problematic as well. So the fact that Dune and especially Dune Too, 670 00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:23.280 which I think is the better of the two films, manages so effectively 671 00:54:23.360 --> 00:54:30.960 to critique all of contemporary popular culture is its great strength, and it is 672 00:54:31.159 --> 00:54:36.679 the reason you need to have so many episodes on this series and why I'm 673 00:54:36.719 --> 00:54:39.679 looking forward to listening to them. Your brother in law is really fricking smart, 674 00:54:39.840 --> 00:54:44.360 and I really I'm really looking forward to hearing more from him. So 675 00:54:45.559 --> 00:54:50.679 that's why it's important. Because it's not Star Wars, and Star Wars sucks 676 00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:55.639 so well that I'm going to strongly disagree with you, but in part because 677 00:54:57.880 --> 00:54:59.760 I know, I know you did that to trigger me a little bit, 678 00:54:59.840 --> 00:55:04.760 not trigger actually triggering, but like I would just say, guess what when 679 00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:08.480 Star Wars took the character who'd become most mythologized, Luke Skywalker and said what 680 00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:13.159 if he wasn't perfect, the exact same thing happened. Oh that is such 681 00:55:13.199 --> 00:55:19.880 a good point. Yeah, like the last Jedi did because again the mythology 682 00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:22.760 of Luke Skywalker, who can do no wrong. So yeah, and I 683 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:29.079 think that's important is that the next six months are going to be some of 684 00:55:29.119 --> 00:55:34.840 the most hard political of many of our lives. And God only knows what 685 00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:37.920 happens after November, and I can understand that a lot of people are gonna 686 00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:40.440 want respit and escape from that, and that's part of why they turn to 687 00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:43.679 these things. And so I want to say, like, we're gonna mention 688 00:55:43.719 --> 00:55:45.320 that stuff, but we're not gonna that's not gonna be the entire focus of 689 00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:50.480 this. But because in part because I think that that's That's the other thing 690 00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:53.639 is that the lessons we're talking about about, like be careful when you say 691 00:55:53.679 --> 00:55:57.800 a leader can do no wrong. I don't just mean a political leader. 692 00:55:57.840 --> 00:56:01.199 I also mean Poloni or or not Snyder or anything like that. Like, 693 00:56:01.239 --> 00:56:05.920 you know, we here like the mythology that could build up. I think 694 00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:09.679 Felony is a phenomenal writer and a phenomenal story builder. And I think Favreau 695 00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:15.519 on a Favreau who's the third of the Disney apps, the one who's at 696 00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:23.079 running the MCU. It's uh Fabreau, Felony and the guy who always wears 697 00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:37.559 a hat. Yeah, yeah, no, we're both looking it up, 698 00:56:37.599 --> 00:56:43.239 aren't we. Kevin Fikey, Fikey, Fikey, thank you so much. 699 00:56:43.239 --> 00:56:46.599 It's Kevin Fikey. You know. They all are I think incredible and have 700 00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:51.559 done so much good in terms of storytelling. They've all made mistakes, you 701 00:56:51.559 --> 00:56:53.920 know, and none of them are perfect. And like more recently, when 702 00:56:53.960 --> 00:56:57.199 a lot of people have been kind of critical of, you know, the 703 00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:00.239 more recent movies of the MCU, I see a lot of people saying, 704 00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:02.280 no, no, no, Fabre has never done us wrong. You have 705 00:57:02.360 --> 00:57:05.519 to just trust Fabreau. You have to trust Fabria. You have to trust 706 00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:07.760 Fabreau. And it's a saint Frank Herbert would say, you're just as dumb. 707 00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:10.599 You know, or you're just as wrong. Frank Herbert would say you're 708 00:57:10.639 --> 00:57:15.800 just as wrong. So thank you everybody. Professor Capel, thank you so 709 00:57:15.880 --> 00:57:16.880 much for being a part of this. This has been awesome. We're going 710 00:57:16.960 --> 00:57:21.079 to have more with you in the bonus section in just a moment. For 711 00:57:21.079 --> 00:57:24.000 everybody else, thank you so much for listening. We have spoken. Superhero 712 00:57:24.039 --> 00:57:28.480 Ethics is an ethical pan of podcast part of the True Story FM network. 713 00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:30.320 If you enjoyed the show, please share it and leave a rating or review 714 00:57:30.320 --> 00:57:34.280 on your podcast app if possible. The best way to support us is by 715 00:57:34.280 --> 00:57:37.840 becoming a member. Find info and social links in the show notes. Thanks 716 00:57:37.840 --> 00:57:37.320 for listening.