WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.519 --> 00:00:20.960 From Powerline blog dot com and produced by Ricochet dot Com. This is the 2 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:35.920 Powerline Show with your host Steve Hayward. Well, hi everybody, and welcome 3 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:42.359 to a classic format Powerline Conversation today featuring Daniel McCarthy talking with me about Wilmore 4 00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:46.719 Kendall. Kendall was one of the great political scientists of the post war era, 5 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:49.600 and he's been back on our minds lately for a number of reasons. 6 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:54.799 He was a heterodox champion of Joe McCarthy back in the nineteen fifties, a 7 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:59.359 critic of the place of John Locke in American political thought, and a defender 8 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.520 of majority harry and deliberation, and as such, his provocative ideas are making 9 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.840 a comeback in our age of nationalist populism now. Kendall died at the way 10 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:11.400 to an early age of fifty eight, way back in nineteen sixty seven, 11 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:18.920 following a brilliant, if somewhat erratic and always controversial academic career. In addition 12 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:22.760 to a scholarship in teaching, he worked as a journalist in Spain or in 13 00:01:22.760 --> 00:01:26.120 a civil war in the nineteen thirties, and this is where he acquired his 14 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:30.200 anti communism. He worked as a CIA spy, and he even wrote a 15 00:01:30.200 --> 00:01:34.599 book about baseball, as well as helping to found National Review magazine in nineteen 16 00:01:34.640 --> 00:01:38.799 fifty five and being a major mentor to William F. Buckley. At the 17 00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:42.000 time of his death, Kendall left behind an unfinished book that touched off a 18 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:48.120 controversy that is still raging today, entitled The Basic Symbols of the American Political 19 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:51.439 Tradition. The book was rounded off and finished by George Carey, and there 20 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:56.920 has always been a little bit of controversy about Carry's modifications of what were early 21 00:01:57.560 --> 00:02:00.640 lectures and early drafts of Kendall, but leave that beside. The greatest critic 22 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:05.159 of the book after it appeared was Harry Jaffa, who took hard after the 23 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:09.199 book when it appeared posthumously in the early nineteen seventies. And yet jaff and 24 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:14.560 Kendall were warm friends. They used to have long telephone conversations in the middle 25 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:17.400 of the night. This is back when long distance rates were very expensive up 26 00:02:17.439 --> 00:02:23.080 until eleven PM. I've heard a recording of Jaffa in nineteen seventy calling Kendall 27 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:28.479 my good friend, more than three years after Kendall's death, and here's a 28 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:32.719 short clip from Jaffa speaking to the Philadelphia Society in nineteen seventy one about Kendall. 29 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:40.000 But before I expressed my disagreements, I wanted to pay what I think 30 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:46.840 is a tribute to Wilmore Kendall. I think that Wilmore was the best teacher 31 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:52.199 of political philosophy of his generation in this country, at least the best native 32 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.719 teacher that he can sit at the feat of several other teachers. Himself, 33 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:04.400 whom he acknowledged as his master's will. War was I think a true disciple 34 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:09.080 of Socrates. He managed to contradict just about everything that anybody said to him, 35 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:23.039 and when he ran out of antagonists, he contradicted himself if he had 36 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:27.919 a foot. I think that he loved his country, not wisely, but 37 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:31.560 too well. And I think he came to believe, certainly by the end 38 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:38.039 of his life, that the picture of the virtuous Republic deliberating sage lely and 39 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:46.039 wisely under God was the highest view of the American Republic that he could take, 40 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:51.960 and he believed that that was the true American political tradition. But there's 41 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.560 a brand new edition of one of Kendall's key books, The Conservative Affirmation edited 42 00:03:55.599 --> 00:04:00.479 introduced by Dan McCarthy, who was currently the editor of Modern Age and a 43 00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:05.280 well known self identified paleo conservative. What's a paleo conservative? You ask, 44 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:11.199 Stan Evans joke that a paleo conservative is a conservative who has been mugged by 45 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.199 a neo conservative, and I'll go with that sol Dan. It turns out 46 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.000 so I was lucky enough to catch up with Dan recently for a long chat 47 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:26.040 about Kendall and his legacy. So let's get started. So, Dan McCarthy, 48 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:31.519 before we get into most recent book, you've edited the reissue of Wilmark 49 00:04:31.560 --> 00:04:36.279 Kendall's classic work, The Conservative Affirmation. I want to acquaint listeners with Dan 50 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:42.000 McCarthy and so give us a little sketch of intellectual biography. I know that 51 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:45.600 you're currently the editor of Modern Age, where I've been pleased to publish for 52 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.920 a long time a journal that was whose first editor was Russell Kirk. So 53 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:53.360 it's got a great lineage and I think kind of an ironic name because you 54 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:57.079 know, Modern Age for pre modern people. But more seriously, yeah, 55 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:02.040 a little bit about your intellectual background, and is it a calaween to describe 56 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:05.560 you as a paleo con or? Is that a slander or is that a 57 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:09.000 dame you own up with? And anyway, go ahead and started, I 58 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:14.319 would very happily plead guilty to being a paleo conservative. So my interest in 59 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:18.560 politics, conservative politics in particular, really started in my high school years, 60 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:23.720 which basically spanned nineteen ninety two to nineteen ninety six, and of course, 61 00:05:23.759 --> 00:05:26.959 in nineteen ninety two, Pat Buchanan runs for president against George H. W. 62 00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:30.000 Bush. In nineteen ninety six he runs for the Republican nomination against Bob 63 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:35.560 Dole. So already in that period, in the nineteen nineties, questions of 64 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:41.920 what the real conservative position should be on questions like free trade, immigration, 65 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:46.519 foreign policy, foreign interventionism, these questions were already up, and Pat Buchannon 66 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:50.160 answered them in the paleo conservative way, which was critical of free trade, 67 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:57.000 very skeptical of mass immigration, and also very much opposed to wars in the 68 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.439 Middle East, the Gulf War one in nineteen ninety one. But then, 69 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:03.160 you know, already there were folks, you know, Bill Crystal and others 70 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:06.319 who were calling for Gulf four two, which we eventually get in two thousand 71 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:11.800 and three. So that was sort of my entree into politics. You know, 72 00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:15.240 and I started reading things like Modern Age and Chronicles magazine. Back in 73 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:19.199 my undergraduate years from ninety six to two thousand. Where were you in college 74 00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.279 that interpid? Yeah, I was at Washington University in Saint Louis. I 75 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:29.639 was studying classics and history. There good sort of conservative background, one might 76 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:34.319 say. And actually I was already involved in conservative activism in various ways in 77 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:38.959 college. One of the things I did is I edited a campus conservative paper. 78 00:06:39.000 --> 00:06:43.040 Actually I founded one called The Washington Witness, and that was supported by 79 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:47.560 ISISI is the inter Collegiate Studies Institute. It has a division called the Collegian 80 00:06:47.600 --> 00:06:54.240 Network, which supports campus conservative and independent publications across America. And my life 81 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:57.399 is kind of a circle because now I'm in charge of the Collegian Network. 82 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:00.959 So the very program that helped to, you know, sort of give me 83 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:03.720 my start as a campus journalist is now something that I'm able to give back 84 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:09.360 to as isis vice president for the Collegian Network, right right, And then 85 00:07:10.360 --> 00:07:13.279 so I know, well, let's see I do have to say, and 86 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.639 then we'll start drawing into some issues that if I mean, I was always 87 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:21.920 somewhat critical the paleocons, not you know, not categorically so, but boy, 88 00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:28.160 if anybody can claim vindication, it certainly is the paleocon warnings about all 89 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:32.279 the three issues you mentioned, trade, globalization, immigration, unrestricted immigration, 90 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:38.480 and then a foreign policy that simply is okay, we could go on a 91 00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:42.439 long time about all that, anything else you want to add. I mean, 92 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:45.920 you were at The American Conservative for a while, and that magazine said 93 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:46.879 its ups and downs. But nowadays it seems to me, you know, 94 00:07:46.920 --> 00:07:50.600 they're twenty years old, right, they're celebrating the twenty eight Time to take 95 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:55.079 a victory lap for them and the paleocons more widely, I think, Yeah, 96 00:07:55.120 --> 00:08:00.560 you know, the American Conservative got started in two thousand and two because 97 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:05.079 so Takie Theodore Acopolis one of the founders. Yeah, he was supporting a 98 00:08:05.160 --> 00:08:09.680 section within a New York based publication called the New York Press, and Tackie 99 00:08:09.720 --> 00:08:15.519 provided some funding for a section called Talkie's Top Drawer within the New York Press. 100 00:08:16.000 --> 00:08:20.480 And the New York Press ran into some financial difficulties and the question became, 101 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:24.839 should Tackee just buy the New York Press outright or should he take the 102 00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:30.720 money and start a national conservative publication nationwide Conservative publication for basically the same cost, 103 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:35.759 and his friend Scott McConnell advised him to start a national publication. And 104 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:39.039 Scott and Tackey, even though you know they both have very long careers in 105 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:43.240 journalism, they're not you know, sort of brand names for the average you 106 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.440 know, sort of conservative at home, where's Pat Muchanon was? And they 107 00:08:46.440 --> 00:08:50.480 were both friends with ste Buchanan and Scott had worked on Buchanan's A two thousand 108 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:54.480 campaign. So that's how the American Conservative got started. But what's interesting about 109 00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:58.879 it is, you know, Scott McConnell had a background actually with the New 110 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:01.919 York Post, and he came from a background that you would normally think of 111 00:09:01.960 --> 00:09:05.080 not as paleo conservative, but perhaps even closer to neo conservatism. So whether 112 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:09.159 that's the New York Post, whether it's the fact that you know, Scott 113 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:13.399 has a PhD from Columbia University, you know, so he and he comes, 114 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:15.000 you know, from New York. He comes from a you know, 115 00:09:15.039 --> 00:09:18.919 sort of old wasp family. So Scott brought a sensibility to the American Conservative 116 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:22.720 that made it a slightly different kind of paleo conservatism than what you were getting 117 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:28.919 from Chronicles magazine. Which was the more long established Midwestern based paleocon magazine. 118 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.600 So paleo conservatism is a house with many mansions, you know, there was 119 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:41.039 because paleo conservatism was such a such a different variety of the right from what 120 00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:43.720 had been dominant even in the nineteen eighties, and certainly in the nineties and 121 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:48.039 two thousands. There was a lot of infighting and a lot of paleo conservatives 122 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:54.320 felt very ill used by, you know, the conservative establishment, and so 123 00:09:54.360 --> 00:09:56.639 there was a lot of personal bad blood, and I think that influenced for 124 00:09:56.639 --> 00:10:01.600 a very long time how people thought about paleo conservatism's issues. They thought, 125 00:10:01.600 --> 00:10:03.480 oh, these are just cranky guys who can't get along with anyone, and 126 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.519 so we don't need to take seriously what they're saying about immigration or trade or 127 00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:09.480 foreign policy. And then in foreign policy, you know, I have to 128 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:15.320 say it was after the Cold War Americans, you know, America's foreign policy 129 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:18.919 leadership that the establishment was rather intoxicated by the idea of you know, sort 130 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:26.799 of what was Madeline all Bright's phrase, the you know, basically the Fukuyama 131 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:30.919 thesis of the end of history was something that you know, Madeline Albright and 132 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.960 various others. Indispensable nation, I think was her phrase, and there were, 133 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:37.840 you know, many people were intoxicated by that view. But interestingly enough, 134 00:10:37.919 --> 00:10:41.600 there were some folks, you know, conservatives who were not identified as 135 00:10:41.600 --> 00:10:45.360 paleo conservatives, who were also very skeptical of the idea that the United States 136 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.480 should have a mission to police the world after the Cold War. Jeane Kirkpatrick, 137 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:52.600 of course, was one of those people. So there is this realist 138 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:58.240 tradition on the right which in some ways parallels paleo conservatism skepticism about foreign engagements. 139 00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.679 Yeah, that's right, it's yeah. I mean, even as someone 140 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:03.960 who you know, I knew and admired as much as Charles Crowdhammer was talking 141 00:11:03.919 --> 00:11:09.200 about America's unipolar moment, and he was kind of speaking descriptively and factually, 142 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:13.879 but there's an undercurrent there also of using this great you know, we can 143 00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:16.480 run the world. And yeah, more and more people I think are coming 144 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:18.879 around realizing, as I said a moment ago, you know, the pain 145 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.720 Ucons were right. We should have paid more attention to that then. And 146 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:28.039 so anyway, but we're we're really here to talk about your reissue of Wilmore 147 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:33.519 Kendall's The Conservative affirmation, and I'm going to quote your first sentence be introduction 148 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:35.600 in a minute. But I'll just mention to you because I don't think I've 149 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:39.480 ever had before Wilmore Kendall's book The Basic Symbols of the American Political Tradition. 150 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:43.559 That was the first serious book on American politics I read in college, and 151 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:46.639 I was much bold over by it. I know, I'm more mixed view 152 00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:52.080 of it, but I'm I'm a fan of Kendall. But you begin in 153 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:54.759 a bold way, and we'll draw on the book this way. But I 154 00:11:54.840 --> 00:12:00.320 love your opening sentence, which listeners goes as follows. Wilmore Kendall is the 155 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:05.039 most important conservative philosopher of the twenty first century, even though he died in 156 00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:13.440 nineteen sixty seven. So explain yourself. Well, he is the philosopher, 157 00:12:13.480 --> 00:12:16.440 and he was, you know, a professor of government at Yale University. 158 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.200 He had real you know training, you know, as a scholar. He 159 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:24.279 was someone who was an admirable of Eric Vogeland, and his admiration for Vogelin 160 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.600 comes through in the Basic Symbols of the American Political Tradition, which you mentioned, 161 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.759 and also of Leo Strauss. So Kendall is at an intersection of some 162 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:39.000 very interesting and important philosophical confluences, philosophical you know, rivers of conservatism. 163 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.440 And he himself was a brilliant man, a cantankerous man, someone who was 164 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:48.879 you know, had some various personal problems, but he is the philosopher of 165 00:12:48.919 --> 00:12:54.039 the kind of conservatism that is most salient in America right now, which you 166 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.080 know, one phrase for it might be illiberal democracy, a kind of populism 167 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:03.440 that is willing to re examin the sort of verities of you know, the 168 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.039 kind of liberal democratic mindset right now. Of course, on the right, 169 00:13:07.080 --> 00:13:13.320 there's a lot of debate over the place of liberalism, whether American conservatives simply 170 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:16.120 are liberals, you know, which is you know, Joah Goldberg and others 171 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:20.320 make the claim that American conservatism is just the old liberalism. And then you 172 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:26.759 have others who identify themselves define themselves as postliberals. And Wilmore Kendall was ahead 173 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:31.840 of this whole debate by many decades because he was someone who embraced the idea 174 00:13:31.840 --> 00:13:35.679 of democracy, which you know, many conservatives are not comfortable with. And 175 00:13:35.759 --> 00:13:39.480 yet he was also someone who's very critical of liberalism from the beginning and said 176 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.759 that America was not in fact founded as a lockey in liberal kind of polity. 177 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:46.960 Yeah, so let's break this down a little bit and start, I 178 00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:52.559 guess with populism. You know, my working definition of populism is when the 179 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:56.320 wrong person wins an election. But it is true though, the populism, 180 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:00.360 you know, it's usually the people against the powerful, and I think more 181 00:14:00.440 --> 00:14:03.919 or less historically it's thought of as a phenomenon of the left or a progressive 182 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:09.000 You think of William Jennings Bryan and the populist part of eighteen nineties, and 183 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:11.440 no all suddenly with Brexit and Trump, populism as the phenomenon of the right, 184 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:15.399 and that's why, of course was deplored by all right thinking people. 185 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:20.159 But Kendall was early on, you know, sort of a defender of populism 186 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:24.919 and defending a maturey terrianism in ways that are challenging and hard to make out. 187 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:26.960 And he also sort of changed his mind along the route. So I 188 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:28.799 don't know how you wanted to code that, because it is complicated. So 189 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:35.799 Wilmore Kendall, as was the case with many early twentieth century conservatives, went 190 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:39.240 through a phase where he was a socialist, or even a fellow traveler of 191 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:41.840 communist, not a cardcaring communist himself, but someone who was close to, 192 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:48.679 for example, some of the communist activists in Spain before the Spanish Civil Wars. 193 00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:52.279 Interrupt to say that that's always struck me about Kendall's biographies. He went 194 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:54.840 to Spain as a journalist, didn't he? He did? It was it 195 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.720 was sort of a side gig as he was also studying at Oxford University, 196 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:01.039 So I'm not sure exactly how he balanced those two things. There's a recent 197 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:05.519 biography of Kendall by a Christopher Owen that's well worth looking at, but even 198 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.480 there I wasn't quite clear from that narrative how he goes from being in Oxford 199 00:15:09.480 --> 00:15:15.799 as a student to going to Spain as a as a journalist. Well, 200 00:15:15.840 --> 00:15:18.039 it's a little murky. But the reason I bring it up as you think 201 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.720 of the people who went to Spain during the Civil War in the thirties and 202 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:26.080 includes orwell, Arthur Kessler and Kendall, and there's people who had you had 203 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:28.639 been on the left round left a sympathies, had their eyes open to what 204 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:33.279 communism is. That's exactly right. So and he tendis get forgotten when you 205 00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:35.639 think about the people who went to anyway. Sorry, oh no, you're 206 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.440 you know, you're exactly right. So Kendall was in Spain a little bit 207 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:45.039 before the Civil War broke out. So but you're exactly right that the experience 208 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:48.960 he had is a close parallel for Orwell and others, because he had many 209 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:54.679 friends on the non Stalinist hard left of Spain. And when the Spanish Civil 210 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:58.600 War breaks out, it turns out that those non Stalinist leftists had more to 211 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:02.440 fear from the Stalinist leftists, even more than they had to fear from Franco. 212 00:16:02.559 --> 00:16:03.879 And you know, the right, right, that's right, that's that 213 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:08.600 story is receded in the memory along with the memory of the war. By 214 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:15.000 the way, in reading Christopher Owen's biography of Kendall, something finally clicked, 215 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:17.639 you know, something I had i'd you know, i'd known in a kind 216 00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:21.679 of abstract way, but had never really felt before. And that is the 217 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:26.080 reason why so many of these former Trotskyists. So that includes James Burnham to 218 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:30.399 some extent, it includes Wilmore Kendall later on, it includes figures like Irving 219 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:36.320 Crystal, a whole variety of people who move from a version of Marxism into 220 00:16:36.360 --> 00:16:40.399 the right. But the reason why many of them wound up with US intelligence 221 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:45.399 connections is because if you are the US intelligence community, what are the values 222 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:47.919 you find in the Trotskyist Well, there are two things that are really helpful 223 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:51.080 about them. First, they actually know the enemy, they know Stalinism, 224 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.559 they know Communism. But second, they are the people you can most rely 225 00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:57.399 upon to hate Stalin because you know, anyone else you know that they may 226 00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:00.759 feel indifferent, but the Trots, you know, they have a very personal, 227 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.559 visceral reason to hate Stalin. So I think that's you know, a 228 00:17:03.599 --> 00:17:07.920 part of the twentieth century history that's important, but that i'd never quite fully, 229 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:11.519 you know, sort of comprehended before. Yeah, they think, if 230 00:17:11.559 --> 00:17:15.400 they thought, they think politically, and you know, both high and low 231 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:17.200 sense of the word. I mean, you know, we're here at this 232 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:22.640 conference together, and some people it's an occupational hazard. They tend to lap 233 00:17:22.720 --> 00:17:25.720 to the abstractions. You know, that's your day job here, professor. 234 00:17:26.880 --> 00:17:32.400 And yeah, the people you mentioned they think more politically, and so here 235 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.440 we are. But I should bring this back to a question you raised a 236 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:37.759 moment ago, which is to what extent did Wilmore Kendall change his way of 237 00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:42.119 looking at things, particularly h you know, where the question of majoritarianism is 238 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:48.400 involved. So he writes his PhD thesis as a reevaluation of John Locke as 239 00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:53.279 a majoritarian rather than a liberal. And there is this through line in Kendall's 240 00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:59.839 thinking where he has always devoted to the idea of popular self government of democracy 241 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.680 properly understood, although what the proper understanding of democracy is changes for Kendall over 242 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:08.839 time, and he certainly changes his evaluation of Locke based upon his reading of 243 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.720 Leo Strauss. So initially, you know, from his own study of Locke, 244 00:18:12.799 --> 00:18:17.559 he thinks of Locke as being a majoritarian and a democrat rather than a 245 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:21.680 liberal and a natural rights guy. When he reads Leo Strauss, he comes 246 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:26.119 away and decides, Ah, actually Locke is a very subversive figure who does 247 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.319 not believe in, you know, a virtuous majority rule. Actually, what 248 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.119 he wants to do is subvert you know, Christianity and subvert you know, 249 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:37.400 kind of Aristotelian natural law. And so Kendall changes his mind on Locke, 250 00:18:37.680 --> 00:18:42.440 and but his his majoritarianism, I think it gets more articulated as opposed to 251 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:48.440 being erased so early on. His understanding of majoritarianism is probably what many listeners 252 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.200 would think of it's just, you know, okay, whoever has the most 253 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.920 votes, you know, gets everything. But Kendall, you know, through 254 00:18:55.960 --> 00:19:00.799 his study of the federalist papers, through his careful study not just of you 255 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:04.119 know, the Constitution, but of the documents that lead up to the Constitution, 256 00:19:04.319 --> 00:19:08.319 going back to things like the Mayflower Compact and the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, 257 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:15.200 basically Kendall develops a sense of majoritarianism that is mixed with both the idea 258 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:18.519 that you have to have a pre existing commitment on the part of the people 259 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:25.200 to a higher truth basically to God or to some you know, transcendent metaphysics, 260 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:30.759 and at the same time that you have a certain ultimately articulated in the 261 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:36.559 Constitution procedures that allow you to take what is still a majority rule system, 262 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:40.680 but to make sure that it is a little more deliberative, a little more 263 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:45.440 sort of self reflective and examining, and so you can still have majoritarianism, 264 00:19:45.440 --> 00:19:48.519 but it's actually a majoritarianism that is quite localized, that is also you know, 265 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.960 sort of wrapped together into federalism, and that has many filters, and 266 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.400 they're they're popular filters. That's the key thing that I think many conservatives get 267 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.240 wrong. And Kendall is very clear to argue this against other conservatives. Many 268 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:03.599 conservatives say, Aha, the Constitution has all these checks on the people. 269 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:07.359 Kendall says, that's wrong. Actually, these are checks by the people on 270 00:20:07.440 --> 00:20:10.839 the people. So it's not that there is an aristocracy or some other you 271 00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:14.640 know, non popular element that is coming in and you know, correcting the 272 00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:18.480 people. It's rather that the people are you know, have through through representatives 273 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:21.559 and through the framers of the Constitution, found a way to correct themselves. 274 00:20:21.640 --> 00:20:22.920 Yeah. I mean the way I try and explain it to students, and 275 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:27.839 usually not directly Brandon Kendall, is that all those devices that you reference the 276 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:34.319 founders had in mind creating majorities that think you mentioned deliberation and Kendall's additional I 277 00:20:34.480 --> 00:20:38.240 should say, or i'd say secret sauce is virtue. You want to have 278 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:41.079 a virtuous people, and that's going to depend on you know, piety, 279 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:47.400 religion, Christian faith, and you know, so you brought up you know, 280 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:51.200 his talking about the Fundamental Ords or Connecticut, the Mayflower Compact and other 281 00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:57.440 compacts that are also reminiscent of covenants of the Old Testament. Right. And 282 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:02.920 and there's an important point because no, no, that it actually sets up 283 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.599 a key element of Kendall's thought, which is there's a difference between a social 284 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:12.440 contract, which articulates something, and a social contract which is seen as creating 285 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:18.519 x niolo a new order. So Kendall rejected a Lockian and certainly a Russoian 286 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.920 view of a social contract, which is simply, okay, we're going to 287 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.759 create not only the law and not only the state, but even morality itself. 288 00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:29.240 All of these things are just a matter of social convention. Kendall totally 289 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:32.359 rejected that. He said, instead, what you have is a people who 290 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:36.440 already possess revelation. They already possess, you know, historical practices that may 291 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:40.240 be sound. They already possessed a very high degree of virtue. Otherwise they 292 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:42.319 would have been extinct, they would never have made it to the New World. 293 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:47.000 But you take these pre existing elements, and then you can have a 294 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:49.960 social compact that brings these elements into play and reformulates how they relate to one 295 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.759 another. So Kendall's idea of the constitution and of this tradition, going back 296 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:57.839 to the Mayflower compact, is one in which the social contract is a specifying 297 00:21:57.920 --> 00:22:03.720 contract, not a creation of order from a kind of you know, a 298 00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:07.039 metaphysical wasteland, right or you know, Plato's Republic or something like that. 299 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.319 Although you know, we're going all over the place, but it's just fun 300 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:14.079 with Kenball because he was all over the place in some ways. You probably 301 00:22:14.079 --> 00:22:17.759 know that one of his provocations in class, and he taught at Yale and 302 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:23.319 Dallas and elsewhere was maybe the Athenians were right to execute Socrates. And that's 303 00:22:23.359 --> 00:22:26.799 sort of simple majoritarity, isn't But he was trying to get students to think 304 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:30.920 about the fundamental question of well, first of all, you shake people out 305 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:36.799 of the complace and easygoing modern liberal view that Socrates was a good guy and 306 00:22:36.799 --> 00:22:41.200 so therefore how horrible the Athenians to execute him for impiety? And what he's 307 00:22:41.200 --> 00:22:44.359 trying to bring out is, yeah, but you understand that that kind of 308 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:48.960 philosophical inquiry can undermine the pietistic foundations of a social order. That's the beginning 309 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:52.640 of a long tradition of you know, okay, but Kendall would bring it 310 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.960 up and confront students with it and they can work through it and there's some 311 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:02.279 wisdom. Right. Oh, absolutely so kendall In he believed correctly. I 312 00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.680 think that every society, every community, has to have a public orthodoxy, 313 00:23:07.319 --> 00:23:11.000 and that is what constitutes and defines it. Now, let me use this 314 00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:15.200 analogy for a reader, for listeners who might be kind of shocked at this 315 00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:18.039 idea of you know, yes, Athens was right to execute Socrates. But 316 00:23:18.119 --> 00:23:22.359 imagine there was a magic word. It's a word, but if you utter 317 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:27.079 it, it will actually dissolve your community, destroy it, unleash anarchy and 318 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:33.119 disorder. If there were such a magic word that had that that material power, 319 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:36.440 I think most people would say it's quite reasonable for government to say, 320 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.119 Okay, that's one word you can't say. You can say almost anything else, 321 00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.720 but you can't say that magic word. Well, what if the word 322 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:44.960 is not magic. What if it's just a regular kind of argument or an 323 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.960 argument against, you know, the very foundations of your society. If that 324 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:52.400 has exactly the same consequences as this magical word I've hypothesized, I think most 325 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:55.680 people would still say, you know what, yeah, maybe maybe there does 326 00:23:55.759 --> 00:23:59.680 need to be some restriction because if that really is the consequence of this idea, 327 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:03.240 and it leads to, you know, the destruction of your society. 328 00:24:03.279 --> 00:24:07.279 So it's the idea that the safety of the public order may require some constraints. 329 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.000 In fact, it always requires some constraints upon a freedom of speech and 330 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:15.759 freedom of expression. And you know, I think people look at Kendall's argument 331 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:18.640 here and they say, ah, this is a censorious guy. This is 332 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.640 a guy who hates, you know, free speech, doesn't want to argue 333 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:26.640 or whatever. That's exactly wrong, because again Kendall has this commitment to deliberation, 334 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:30.880 which he thinks is, you know, deliberation is the secret sauce that 335 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:34.759 makes majority rule and that makes representative government function. You can't have deliberation without 336 00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:38.519 a pretty large degree of free speech. So his point is not to get 337 00:24:38.599 --> 00:24:41.720 rid of free speech, but rather to say, the basis, the thing 338 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:48.079 that authorizes or legitimizes free speech is deliberation, which has a political goal, 339 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:52.200 and it has a goal under you know, the you know, metaphysical horizons 340 00:24:52.200 --> 00:24:55.480 of the community. That is, that is the kind of free speech you 341 00:24:55.519 --> 00:24:57.440 can have. Whereas if you try to get rid of those metaphysical horizons, 342 00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:00.640 if you say, we're not going to have God, We're not gonna have 343 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:03.079 you know, truth, basically, we're not gonna have anything transcendent. Then 344 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:06.119 you know, okay, you have free speech, but you know what else 345 00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:08.640 you have? You have a society with no no, you know, rational 346 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:14.160 or revealed basis for you know, its laws. It's just a matter of 347 00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:17.400 pure force. Yeah. So let's uh, I want to come back to 348 00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:21.200 the Conservative Affirmation, the book you put together, but I'm having too much 349 00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:22.759 fun wandering around, so we'll end with it is what we'll do. But 350 00:25:22.920 --> 00:25:27.000 what I want to do is, so there's two or three data points. 351 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.799 We mentioned that Kendall died in nineteen sixty seven, I think it was. 352 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:34.880 He was only fifty nine years old, I think, or fifty seven he 353 00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:40.400 had it. You mentioned he had an alcohol problem and bad health, and 354 00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:44.440 and so the next point I make is we were deprived, not like just 355 00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:47.559 a great man on the merits of it, we were also deprived I think 356 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:52.480 of what would have been an epic intellectual debate that I think would have gone 357 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:56.000 very well on the merits of it because he died kind of didn't. And 358 00:25:56.039 --> 00:25:59.279 that was with Harry Jaffer, right, because by the way, you know, 359 00:26:00.400 --> 00:26:03.839 you know, and everybody's noted that Jaffa took after Kendall posthumously for the 360 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:07.319 Basic Symbols book. Again, I've heard they used to talk to each other 361 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:10.960 on the phone for hours in the middle of the night because rates are cheap 362 00:26:11.000 --> 00:26:15.000 back then. And I've heard the recording of Jaffa from nineteen seventy one, 363 00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:21.839 I think, referring to his late good friend Wilmore Kendall. And then the 364 00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:23.799 book comes out, and so we'll talk about I mean, this may be 365 00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:27.880 an overcrude summary, but Kendall, who, as you say, came to 366 00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:32.079 Strouss later, he didn't study with Strouss, but he came to know him. 367 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:37.640 That a correspondence, Kendell and Jaffa knew each other. Kendall gave a 368 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:41.039 mostly favorable review to Jaffa's most famous book, but he worries at the end 369 00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:45.240 about where this is going. And then you may have seen this. There's 370 00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:48.759 some evidence that Kendall wanted to take on jaff on this question of the place 371 00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:53.039 of equality in America, and whether Jaffa and his followers, like you know 372 00:26:53.160 --> 00:26:57.519 me or Charles Gusterer, pushed the Lincoln example too far. That would have 373 00:26:57.519 --> 00:27:02.839 been absolutely sparkling conversation, and because the two men knew and admired each other, 374 00:27:02.960 --> 00:27:04.319 it would have been entired. It might have betten very strong, but 375 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:11.200 it wouldn't have been as you know the sequels that Okay, But anyway, 376 00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:14.319 so let me try and briefly summarize, and then you help me refine it 377 00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:18.200 to something more precise. The argument of basic symbols of the American political tradition 378 00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:22.119 was the basic symbol really is this compact theory. We've already made reference to 379 00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:29.839 it, you know, based on insand like Covenant and that equally it sort 380 00:27:29.880 --> 00:27:33.559 of downplayed lock in equality and natural rights and the way that has unfolded in 381 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:41.000 American politics. I've extrapolated a little bit and said, and I had this 382 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:45.480 argument with a lot of my friends that Kendall may or not. You know, 383 00:27:45.480 --> 00:27:48.720 you can quarrel with Kendall's accountabis On the other hand, it is certainly 384 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:53.079 true that the idea of equality has metastasized in the modern world. Behold the 385 00:27:53.079 --> 00:27:56.920 world with even now of equity. And I know all the counter arguments about 386 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:02.000 why that was mistaken and wrong and the old principles right, But now I've 387 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:04.200 rambled a long time sorry, Dan, but I think that you know, 388 00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:08.960 that book was an interesting provocation and here we are today and I'm not sure 389 00:28:08.960 --> 00:28:11.720 who has the best of this. Yeah, I agree, there would have 390 00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:18.359 been a fascinating ongoing battle. Yeah, I'm sorry. If there's a letter 391 00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.599 that Kendall sent to Strauss where he kind of hints, I'm going to take 392 00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:23.960 on Jaffa and Strauss, I'll keep mum about it. That would have been 393 00:28:23.960 --> 00:28:27.119 like nineteen what would have had have been sixty eight or so? So anyway, 394 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:32.799 sorry for sixty six. I don't know anyway. Yeah. So Kendall 395 00:28:32.920 --> 00:28:37.920 reviews Crisis of the House Divided by Harry Jaffa in National Review magazine, and 396 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:41.400 as you say, it is a mostly favorable review except the last few paragraphs 397 00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:47.359 where Kendall says, if you have a philosopher king or a philosopher president, 398 00:28:47.799 --> 00:28:52.680 and he takes this abstract idea equality and makes that the heart of the political 399 00:28:52.799 --> 00:28:56.519 order, what is to prevent some next, you know, some flawed philosopher 400 00:28:57.039 --> 00:29:03.960 or flawed president from coming along next, taking that concept, distorting it and 401 00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.680 basically, you know, running rough shot over the constitutional order with it, 402 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:10.880 and a lot of conservatives, I think, even those who are not necessarily 403 00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.400 engaged in the Jaffa Kendall debate would say, this is exactly what has happened 404 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:18.240 that the concept of equality, which had you know, very defensible, uh, 405 00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:21.839 you know, roots in the Declaration of Independence and in the way in 406 00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:26.680 which you know Lincoln used it himself, has nevertheless gotten away from any kind 407 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.440 of limitation or control and you know, lends itself to equality of outcome. 408 00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:33.559 Uh. You know, now this idea of equity which you know, we're 409 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:37.759 just going to say, let's just you know, kind of redistribute in order 410 00:29:37.799 --> 00:29:40.759 to get the just outcomes that we have predetermined are going to be justice, 411 00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:44.319 right, that we're not going to have leave anything to chance. So equality, 412 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.960 you know, does get out of control. And nowadays, you know, 413 00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:51.920 many of our friends who are you know, very close to the Jaffa 414 00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:56.759 tradition would happily agree, yes, equality got out of control. But they 415 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.480 would say that Kendall went too far in trying to minimize the role of equality 416 00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:04.599 in both the Declaration and the American tradition in general, and perhaps also in 417 00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:10.240 you know, fearing that Lincoln was the beginning of a corruption. For Kendall, 418 00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:15.160 it's it's not that America is founded on an idea, because it's not 419 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:21.119 it's not founded upon this, you know, sort of natural justice conception or 420 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:26.599 natural right conception of equality, or of anything else you find in the Declaration 421 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.960 of Independence. Rather that you already have a pre existing virtue, partly through 422 00:30:32.039 --> 00:30:37.960 revelation and partly through you know, sort of well the philosophical tradition that Americans 423 00:30:38.000 --> 00:30:44.319 had inherited from Aristotle, that Americans in the colonial period already were a virtuous 424 00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:48.079 people who understood themselves to be making their decisions under God, and that this 425 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:53.079 is the basis for the Mayflower Compact, the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut. Ultimately 426 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:56.640 to some degree also it is the Declaration of Independence, and then finally the 427 00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:02.559 Constitution. And Kendall's warning that if you take this element from the Declaration, 428 00:31:02.640 --> 00:31:07.839 this idea of equality in the abstract, apart from democratic deliberation, and you 429 00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:10.519 say that from this we're going to derive, you know, the rights or 430 00:31:10.519 --> 00:31:14.680 the procedures that will govern our society. That's what he thinks of the fatal 431 00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:18.480 flaw and will lead to what we have today. Yeah, my own hunch, 432 00:31:18.480 --> 00:31:22.799 and it's only that or an opinion, is that he had a waste 433 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:25.799 too. Well, that might have been not been his last word on the 434 00:31:25.799 --> 00:31:27.960 subject. I think there's other evidence that, you know, he was very 435 00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:33.599 taken with Richard Weaver late in his life in ways I can't quite remember now, 436 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:36.480 but he thought we had some unique insights into this question of how do 437 00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.759 you create a virtuous people? And well, yes, in fact, i'll 438 00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:45.759 jump in because this does relate to the Conservative affirmation. So the Conservative affirmation. 439 00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:49.119 This volume of Wilmore Kendall's from nineteen sixty three, which has now been 440 00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:55.680 reissued by Reregunary with a new introduction by yours truly. The book is modeled 441 00:31:55.720 --> 00:32:00.400 after Leo Strauss's What Is Political Philosophy? As listeners may know, What Is 442 00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:05.119 Political Philosophy consists of a number of essays followed by a selection of book reviews, 443 00:32:05.559 --> 00:32:08.640 and Wilmore Kendall's book also is a number of essays followed by a rather 444 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:13.720 large number of book reviews, and included in those book reviews are the review 445 00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:16.680 of Harry Jaffers Crisis of the House Divided, and also a review it may 446 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.240 not be of ideas have consequences, but in any case it's a review of 447 00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:22.559 one of Weaver's books, and he is praising Weaver, although I have to 448 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:27.759 say, in preparing my introduction, I went back and reread that review, 449 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.480 and I realized that Kendall was less favorable towards Weaver than he might have sounded 450 00:32:31.480 --> 00:32:39.279 on my first reading. But basically, the problem that any kind of regime 451 00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:44.279 faces is how can you make sure the sovereign is virtuous? And a lot 452 00:32:44.319 --> 00:32:45.960 of people would like to solve that by saying, well, you know, 453 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:51.720 one particular form of regime is always virtuous, and other forms of regime like 454 00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.000 democracy, are always vicious. And Kendall, I think was quite wise in 455 00:32:54.000 --> 00:32:58.680 recognizing that's false, that in fact, you know, the thing you have 456 00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:02.079 to have is one who's able to teach virtue to whatever kind of regime you 457 00:33:02.119 --> 00:33:07.440 have. So in a democracy, in a representative republic, you still have, 458 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:12.559 if anything, the office of the teacher is more important than ever because 459 00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:15.359 you have to educate and perpetuate the virtue of a larger and larger group of 460 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:20.640 people. So I think Kendall looked at Leo Strauss and Eric Vogelan and Richard 461 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.279 Weaver, despite having some criticisms or differences with all of them, and said, 462 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:28.920 this class of person. This kind of teacher is exactly what America needs 463 00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:30.759 if it's going to maintain virtue, and you need to maintain that virtue in 464 00:33:30.839 --> 00:33:35.279 order to maintain the republic. Yeah, so it's so I've talked about. 465 00:33:35.359 --> 00:33:37.920 You know, he would have quarreled with Jaffa. He did. He didn't 466 00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:40.119 think much of Russell Kirk. I don't remember if I know. This is 467 00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:44.240 a whole separate essay in another book of his, the what we call the 468 00:33:44.240 --> 00:33:46.559 Sage and We Cost or something, and he was really hard on Kirk. 469 00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:51.680 Well, so I don't think much of Frank Meyer's fusionisms. I'd say a 470 00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:58.079 little bit about yet other people. Wilmore Kendall started writing a book. In 471 00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:00.160 fact, it probably would have been the book he would have written if he 472 00:34:00.200 --> 00:34:06.680 hadn't published The Conservative Affirmation. He started writing a book which basically was a 473 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:10.840 series of chapters demolishing every rival Conservative. So Frank Myer is in there, 474 00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:15.519 the Sage of Woodstock, Clinton Rossiter is in there, right, Russell Kirk 475 00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:19.559 is in there. James Burnham was going to be in there. Basically it 476 00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:22.760 was going to be Wilmore Kendall versus everyone. And in fact there is you 477 00:34:22.760 --> 00:34:27.159 mentioned the people versus Socrates Revisited, which is one of Kendall's famous essays. 478 00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:32.000 The collection of essays in which that appears is called Wilmore Kendall Contramundum against the 479 00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:36.079 World. And sure enough, you know, Kendall was willing to take on 480 00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:38.480 all comers. He was going to write this book of criticisms, and in 481 00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:44.039 fact Wilmore Kendall Contramundum includes these, you know, chapters that he he created 482 00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:49.000 for the book that he didn't write. His criticism was he thought Kirk was 483 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.519 Unamerican. He thought, you know, Kirk was too interested in British conservatism, 484 00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.840 too interested in the idea that you know, you need to have a 485 00:34:57.239 --> 00:35:04.039 maybe a landed aristocracy, or just in general, that Russell Kirk was temperamentally 486 00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:07.079 out of touch and out of sync with his own country. And you know, 487 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:09.480 I think Kirk would agree to some extent. You know, there's a 488 00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:14.960 reason he goes and gets his doctorate from Saint Andrew's University in Scotland. He 489 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:16.880 really did feel out of step with the America of his day and age. 490 00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:20.679 Although I think, you know, to defend Kirk, he would point out 491 00:35:20.679 --> 00:35:23.039 that, you know, his tradition is ultimately one of a kind of northern 492 00:35:23.039 --> 00:35:28.320 agrarianism or a variety of the Southern agrarian tradition, which is very American. 493 00:35:29.039 --> 00:35:34.119 So it's not just a matter of trying to import Europeans into the American bloodstream. 494 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:37.119 I met Russell Kirk several times, and I liked him personally. I 495 00:35:37.159 --> 00:35:38.119 didn't get to know him well, but you know, I always enjoyed his 496 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:42.960 company and being around him. But I agree with Kempbell about it. Well, 497 00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:45.679 let's let's suck get directly into concern. We keep ted at about everything 498 00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:51.039 else but conservative affirmation. It has his chapter defending Joe McCarthy, and of 499 00:35:51.039 --> 00:35:53.840 course that was a big part of his life. I have to confess I 500 00:35:53.880 --> 00:35:58.400 have forgotten his chapter on the two majorities of American politics. Can you remind 501 00:35:58.400 --> 00:36:01.159 me when it was? Quickly, Steve, I know, I think this 502 00:36:01.280 --> 00:36:07.639 is the most important essay. Is a different please first stated form me because 503 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:09.480 I'm a mangle. Ah No, it's it's it's you know, and it 504 00:36:09.559 --> 00:36:12.639 is the kind of thing you have to revisit once in a while in order 505 00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:15.440 to refresh your memory. So the two majorities are, on the one hand, 506 00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:21.599 the left wing progressive plebacyitary majority. And this is where basically you take 507 00:36:21.639 --> 00:36:25.280 a majority, but there's no internal differentiation, there is no filter. It 508 00:36:25.400 --> 00:36:29.920 is just, you know, it's basically what progressives even now are arguing, 509 00:36:29.960 --> 00:36:31.880 in fact, even more forcefully than they were in Kendall's own time. What 510 00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:36.679 do they say? They say the president should be directly elected. They say, 511 00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:39.079 you know what, why do we have every state represented by two senators 512 00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:43.519 rather than proportionally? And they look at Congress and they say, why do 513 00:36:43.559 --> 00:36:46.719 we have districts where we should have basically maybe at large representation. In fact, 514 00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:49.960 if well, if they got their way, what they would do is 515 00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:52.320 they would have at large proportional representation, not only by state, but they'd 516 00:36:52.360 --> 00:36:55.119 ultimately say, why even have states, you should just have take the entire 517 00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:59.400 United States and just have you know, a mass vote. Everyone goes out 518 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:00.280 on you know, maybe they don't do it all on the same day, 519 00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:04.679 but they all vote, and then you know, the powers that be decide 520 00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:07.360 who gets you know what slice. So that's that's one kind of majority. 521 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:10.840 That is the left's you know, idea, both in Kendall's day and ours, 522 00:37:12.199 --> 00:37:15.840 of what democracy means. That's that's precisely what it is. And and 523 00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:20.760 Kendall's criticism of that is when you have an electorate that vast and when it's 524 00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:23.199 when it when it when it is not organized into localities, Um, what 525 00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:27.800 you do is you wind up getting an affirmation for everything and nothing. And 526 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:30.960 I think Barack Obama in his campaigns in O eight in twenty twelve was a 527 00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:37.039 perfect illustration of the kind of leader you get when you have that plebiscitary mentality. 528 00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:42.199 What did Obama stand for? Hope and change? These utterly banal, 529 00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:47.159 meaningless you know, abstractions exactly, so you take so so when you have 530 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.519 that vast electorate that has no particular you know, sort of differentiation or focus, 531 00:37:52.960 --> 00:37:58.360 you can then you know, claim that you have democratic legitimacy or authorization 532 00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:00.239 from that majority. But in act, what you really have is such an 533 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:04.800 abstract mandate you can do anything you want. So it's a kind of suicidal 534 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:07.320 democracy. It's actually not democratic at all. The other majority, which is 535 00:38:07.320 --> 00:38:13.199 the kind that Kendall supports, is the Madisonian form of majority, and this 536 00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:15.440 is one where it is localized. You do have districts, you have filters, 537 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:20.679 you have you know, all the complexities of our constitution, which again 538 00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:24.840 Kendall insists this is not antidemocratic. This is not an aristocracy imposing its will 539 00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:30.400 on the people. This is actually making sure that the people has maximum deliberation 540 00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:35.760 through different chambers, through different states, through different districts, and this through 541 00:38:35.760 --> 00:38:39.440 the electoral college, and this kind of deliberation produces a much better kind of 542 00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.960 majority, a much better kind of government, and a more legislative kind of 543 00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:51.119 government in his theory, at least than the pletistary, universal kind of you 544 00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:54.280 know, disordered democracy that you find the progressives endorsing. The I recently get 545 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:59.000 confused is that there's a lot of later work in political science on two majorities 546 00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:02.079 that differ from the simple we're simple minded. But part of it was, 547 00:39:02.119 --> 00:39:07.440 you know, we started seeing with Nixon and then later Reagan a presidential majority 548 00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:09.480 and a congressional majority, and a lot of factors to all that, but 549 00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:14.400 it represented different current opinion. Kendall. It would have been fascinating to see 550 00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.599 if Kendall lived through those years to have him update this and reflect upon that, 551 00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:20.960 because he would have said, I told you so, there's a deeper, 552 00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:23.000 deeper meaning to what's going on here. Yeah. In fact, let 553 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:28.760 me update the argument there, because Kendall precisely did see that that there were 554 00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:31.679 different kinds of majorities for the president and for Congress. And Kendall was always 555 00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:35.679 on the side of Congress. And as you say, this was I mean, 556 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:37.639 this is coming off of you know, decades of the New Deal and 557 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:44.920 Harry Truman. You know, Dwight Eisenhower was not Yeah, Dwight Eisenhower was 558 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.599 not someone that you know, most you know, people on the right, 559 00:39:49.000 --> 00:39:53.920 we're all that enthusiastic about. So Wilmore Kendall didn't like presidential majorities, which 560 00:39:53.960 --> 00:39:58.400 he thought tended to embrace this kind of abstract, you know, blank check 561 00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:04.599 rhetoric. He preferred aggressional majorities because there you have the people organized in districts, 562 00:40:04.679 --> 00:40:08.880 organized in localities, having concrete discussions and having deliberation. Now, in 563 00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:13.519 the nineteen seventies, I think, shortly after the Nixon era, perhaps in 564 00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:16.119 the midst of the Carter years, Jeffrey Hart, who was a senior editor 565 00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:21.639 at National Review, decided to revisit Kendall's thought on this, but to argue 566 00:40:21.679 --> 00:40:23.639 the other side and to say, basically, the only way to reign in 567 00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:29.000 the administrative state is with a powerful president who has a mass mandate and so 568 00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:34.480 Heart kind of turned around Kendall's argument and said, actually, Kendall was right 569 00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.039 about what happens, but he was wrong to take the side of Congress as 570 00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:42.239 opposed to a vigorous executive, who is the only kind of power you can 571 00:40:42.280 --> 00:40:45.840 have that can take on At that time, it was the administrative state that 572 00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:49.440 a Heart was worried about. But today a number of conservatives would say you 573 00:40:49.519 --> 00:40:52.159 need that kind of presidential caesarism. And in fact, caesarism was the very 574 00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:57.639 word that both Kendall and James Burnham used in discussing this. They say, 575 00:40:57.679 --> 00:41:00.519 you need presidential caesarism not only to take on the administrative state, but also 576 00:41:00.559 --> 00:41:05.760 to take on the media, big tech, all these powers that are outside 577 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:08.079 of government but in fact rule our lives. Yeah. Boy, that's a 578 00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:14.360 very live theme right now. So I mentioned one mention. One last chapter 579 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:16.559 and we'll draw here to a close. Is this chapter on freedom of speech 580 00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:22.599 right in the middle, and I think this is his essay that you talked 581 00:41:22.599 --> 00:41:24.360 about the full circle in the world in a small world. That drew upon 582 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:28.480 the work of one of my teachers who was a liberal, Leonard Levy, 583 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:32.280 famous constitutional historian. It was in the late fifties. It was very scrupulous. 584 00:41:32.320 --> 00:41:37.559 His story, the funny story that you might appreciate. He did a 585 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:39.199 lot of work showing that at the time of the Founding and even after the 586 00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:45.159 First Amendment, that the understanding of free speech was very different than it came 587 00:41:45.199 --> 00:41:50.119 in modern times. And the fact that esectually it ratified Kendall's idea that it 588 00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:53.920 really does need to be a public orthodoxy and that you defend against. And 589 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:58.920 I know that. Oh one of his books, I remember, the one 590 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:01.280 that Kendall liked, was showing that Thomas Jefferson, the great civil libertarian, 591 00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:06.840 was those complete hypocrite when he was in office, arresting newspaper editors, suppressing 592 00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:10.840 the media. And Levy told me one time that Felix Frankfurter, who he 593 00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:15.119 knew quite well the Supreme Court, saw the manuscript and begged Levy not to 594 00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:20.400 publish it. This is dangerous to the cause of civil liberties today. But 595 00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:23.079 Levy was scrupulous, honest guy published it. And then Wilmore Kennaball picks up 596 00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:25.519 on it and runs with it. And let me say, Levy was a 597 00:42:25.519 --> 00:42:28.800 liberal be with actually the guy, but he always sort of like, oh 598 00:42:28.840 --> 00:42:31.360 my god, I didn't know this national your conservatives are gonna grab my arnor 599 00:42:31.679 --> 00:42:36.199 anywhere. Funny stuff, but but still worth reading. And that's a great 600 00:42:36.199 --> 00:42:38.280 it's a great book. It's Jefferson and Civil Liberties, The Darker Side, 601 00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:43.480 And I think it is one of the books that Kendall reviews and the Conservative 602 00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:45.480 Affirmation, So I think that's in there, or at least some discussion of 603 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:51.559 Levy is in there. Yeah, Kendall, he thought that I don't think 604 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:55.880 he's correct about this, that the John Stuart Mill variety of absolute free speech 605 00:42:57.239 --> 00:43:00.159 and which is a corollary to this idea of an open society. He thought 606 00:43:00.199 --> 00:43:06.280 this was an innovation, this was something that did not exist in the American 607 00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:08.880 founding. And certainly Jefferson's own record, you know, supports the idea that 608 00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:14.519 Jefferson was not a million you know, free speech absolutist, and I mean, 609 00:43:14.559 --> 00:43:15.679 you know, just by the bye, I mean, you know this 610 00:43:15.719 --> 00:43:21.039 story as well. Jefferson really prided himself on starting the University of Virginia. 611 00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:24.840 And but Jefferson was really worried about the fact that he had histories by David 612 00:43:24.920 --> 00:43:29.960 Hume in the University of Virginia because David Hume who you know, is often 613 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.159 not seen as the radical right wing Mastrian or something. But David Hume, 614 00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:37.719 you know, at various times, because he's an honest historian, gives the 615 00:43:37.719 --> 00:43:40.239 Tory side of British history and says, actually, maybe the Tories are right 616 00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:45.360 and maybe the Whigs were bad. And Jefferson thought, well, that's subversive, 617 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:50.079 we might so Jefferson actually commissioned, I think someone to go through and 618 00:43:50.400 --> 00:43:57.880 produce a you know, apracy, a compressed version of Hume's history that eliminated 619 00:43:57.920 --> 00:44:02.039 the Tory buyas. So Jefferson was not above censorship in a public as well 620 00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:07.760 as a private as well as public capacity. So yeah, Kendall rejects the 621 00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:12.880 idea of you know, a million absolute free speech. He also, very 622 00:44:12.920 --> 00:44:16.400 astutely in this essay in The Conservative Affirmation, points out that in fact, 623 00:44:16.440 --> 00:44:22.079 the whole million position the open society is a fraud and that actually when whenever 624 00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:24.280 these progressives gain power, what do they do? They shut up their opponents. 625 00:44:24.639 --> 00:44:29.000 And you know that was true in Kendall's day in the nineteen sixties, 626 00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:32.679 it is true in spades today. So yeah, I always prefer our universities 627 00:44:32.719 --> 00:44:38.199 these days as our East German universities complete with their own stas to force orthodoxy. 628 00:44:38.559 --> 00:44:42.360 Well, last question, that's really kind of a comment, but you 629 00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:45.199 can turn into question if you want. The main thing thing they mean about 630 00:44:45.239 --> 00:44:49.920 Kendall is that he was not always changing his mind, but you could see 631 00:44:50.000 --> 00:44:53.480 him following things and adding on to and modifying his views and seeing new things, 632 00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:57.840 much more so than a lot of scholars who, although they developed new 633 00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:02.159 thoughts, they sort of follow more familiar pathway and it seems more zig Zaggy's 634 00:45:02.199 --> 00:45:06.480 not quite right. But there's something fascinating and utterly unique about him. That's 635 00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:09.400 what makes him compelling to me. Yeah, there's a sense in which his 636 00:45:09.559 --> 00:45:13.880 thought is a work in progress, which is, you know, some people 637 00:45:13.960 --> 00:45:15.239 might say, oh, that's a criticism that he didn't have, you know, 638 00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:20.320 a final doctrine that we can all agree with or disagree with. But 639 00:45:20.440 --> 00:45:23.400 actually, when you delve into his work, what is so wonderful about it 640 00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:29.039 is you can see a powerful mind working through these fundamental questions, and that 641 00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:30.920 I think is one of the most inspiring things a teacher can do. So 642 00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:35.280 his text will still do that for you. The other really fascinating thing, 643 00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:37.519 and I think this is a great compliment to his character. Is that Wilmore 644 00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:40.760 Kendall even when he was you know, he had been a don at Oxford 645 00:45:40.800 --> 00:45:45.639 Universe, sorry, a don at a Yale University. He was, you 646 00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:49.920 know, someone who had considerable achievements of his own. He was always willing 647 00:45:49.920 --> 00:45:52.639 to revise his own thought based upon reading someone who basically was a peer of 648 00:45:52.679 --> 00:45:55.559 his. So he would read Leo Strauss and say, wait a minute, 649 00:45:55.559 --> 00:46:00.280 I was wrong about John Locke. Leo Strauss is right about Locke. He 650 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.320 would read Eric Vogelin and say, ah, here are some of the answers 651 00:46:02.360 --> 00:46:07.800 I've been looking for to understand how revelation and reason and a tradition relate to 652 00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:12.320 one another. And similarly with Richard Weaver. Even though I think again he 653 00:46:12.400 --> 00:46:16.199 may not be quite as enthusiastic about Weaver as one might immediately think based on 654 00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:21.400 this review, he does think that Weaver has you know, clearly stated this 655 00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:27.000 need for an overarching metaphysics in a way that that Kendall himself finds very valuable. 656 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:30.480 The phrase in that review is that you know, Kendall says, you 657 00:46:30.519 --> 00:46:32.760 know, with maybe one or two slight modifications, he would vote for, 658 00:46:32.920 --> 00:46:37.559 you know, Richard Weaver to be the captain of the conservative intellectual team, 659 00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:40.119 which which indeed is high praise. So I think what we'd say is he 660 00:46:40.679 --> 00:46:44.920 was open minded in the right sense of that term. Well, he was. 661 00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:47.960 He was his mind was always working, yea. And I think that's 662 00:46:49.480 --> 00:46:52.599 that's that's an important distinction because you know, I mean, we've talked about 663 00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:55.719 paleo Conservatism and some of these other conservative schools of thought. One of the 664 00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:59.559 things that frustrates me about almost all of them is that they reach a point 665 00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:02.920 of a where it's simply, you know, rain or shine, you're carrying 666 00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:06.920 the same umbrella. And in fact, you know, the world is a 667 00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.599 very complex place, and there's a need constantly to be you know, not 668 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:15.320 changing our minds, but rather refining and deepening or understanding. With Wilmore Kendall, 669 00:47:15.360 --> 00:47:19.199 that sense of ongoing deepening is there. And so I disagree with people 670 00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.519 who think that Kendall is inconsistent. I think rather there is a logical sequence 671 00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:27.840 to the development of his thought and tracing it and then following it beyond where 672 00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:29.719 he went because of course, you know, as you mentioned, he dies 673 00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:31.280 quite young, and there's a lot of unfinished work, a lot of you 674 00:47:31.280 --> 00:47:36.480 know, sort of Machiavelli, as you know, has this wonderful you know 675 00:47:36.559 --> 00:47:40.000 image early in The Prince where he talks about how a tradition is like a 676 00:47:40.039 --> 00:47:44.480 wall where there's a brick sticking out, because you use that brick to build 677 00:47:44.519 --> 00:47:46.960 the next component of the wall. In the same way with Wilmore Kendall, 678 00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:52.119 the very fact that his ideas are in some ways in unfinished means that there 679 00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:54.360 is this call for other scholars and thinkers to come and to you know, 680 00:47:54.440 --> 00:47:59.039 take the bricks that are hanging out and start building that next component of the 681 00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:00.960 great Wall of Western civilization. Yeah. No, he gave us a great 682 00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:07.440 model on how to keep thinking. And congratulations Dan on this collection and we'll 683 00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:15.480 put it in our bags and think from here. Thanks Steve. So. 684 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:20.719 I think Virgil Thompson's The Plow that Broke the Planes is the right bumper exit 685 00:48:20.800 --> 00:48:23.960 music for any discussion of Wilmore Kendall. I hope you'll go get the Conservative 686 00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:28.679 Affirmation. Check out also the links in the show notes for this episode for 687 00:48:29.719 --> 00:48:34.320 contrasting points of view about Kendall, and always come back on Saturday for the 688 00:48:34.320 --> 00:48:37.760 three whiskey Happy Hour, and don't forget to milk the soft power dividend. 689 00:48:37.800 --> 00:48:51.800 Bye bye, everybody, Ricochet. Join the conversation.