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Hi, and welcome to the nonprofits. And if we got a story for

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you now. We picked this one
out out of the Insider. It was

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written by Amber Middleton and it is
about a white supremacist who took MDMA for

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a study ecstasy and it snapped him
out of his bigoted beliefs. He actually

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started questioning why he was doing this, why he was a bigot. This

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is a really interesting thing. I'm
hoping that maybe we can do some more

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research into this. I know there
has been some research into MDMA with things

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like PTSD in the past, and
I think it looks like a wide open

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area of possibly therapeutic family Raphael,
do you want to talk about it?

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Yeah, this was a super interesting
study where MGMA have this profound effect on

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this person who really started questioning why
they were like a white supremacist bigot.

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I guess the first thing I say
is all, as with all science media,

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take this with a grain of salt. This is one person. It's

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very interesting finding, and I'm hoping
it really opens up other avenues of research

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on MDMA in addition to like a
PTSD that people have been studying. As

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Like you said, Kelly, this
is like it's it's it's an emerging science.

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You know, there's not a lot
out there yet. There's a lot

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of questions. We you know,
we don't really understand a lot about how

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these drugs are working in the brain. But for me, the connection between

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if there is a connection between like
PTSD and bigotry, you know, how

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much of bigotry is coming from some
type of trauma, is some top point

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in their lives? And if it
is coming from some type of trauma,

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can you treat it like PTSD in
some ways? You know, clearly for

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this person they have this profound effect. And uh, you know, it's

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it'll be really interesting to see what
the follow up papers are on this,

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Helen, Do you have any comments? So can we just apply Brandon for

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letting go of bad ideas? Let's
load ran in a So I think that's

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great. But as someone that took
psychology and I did a thesis study on

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the effects of MDAMA on generalized anxiety
disorder, it was so it was really

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it did have really good positive effects. But just because you give someone a

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drug and something good happens doesn't mean
that this will affect every racist. Okay,

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Like, don't please, don't give
every racist lucinogenic and expect them not

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to be racist anymore. That's and
how this works. But I do think

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because drugs like these can open the
mind, it get it helps you become

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very introspective and reflect and do a
lot of reflecting on why you think the

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way that you think, your place
in the world. How MDA can create

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feelings of great closeness and bonding with
other people, but it could also make

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it super territorial. So you know, there's positive. There's positive and negatives

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to every drug. And it has
to do with brain chemistry, environment,

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um, you're the way you've been
socialized. A whole bunch of different factors

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can go into this. Now,
I think it's not you're at what concert

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that you're at my concert that you're
at. Yeah, like have profound I

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mean, like I hope someone's gone
to a concert and stop being a racist.

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That'd be great too, So so
you know, I think it's commendable.

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But this is not science, people, This is just one guy who

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took a drug and decided that,
Hey, I'm a white supremacist. You

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know it's not serving me anymore.
Why do I think this way? We're

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all just people. I think that's
wonderful. But again, like I would

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love to see more of a like, you know, a meta analysis of

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this rather than just one. Do
have you know, becoming a better person?

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But I do applaud Brandon, We're
becoming a better person. So if

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you're watching this, Brandon plus for
sure, for sure, So oh go

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ahead, go ahead, And sorry, I just I definitely think it's just

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another one of those, you know, pieces in the overall puzzle that we've

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continued to see, uh, you
know, time after time where there is

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something about these hallucinogenic compounds in the
world that when mixed with proper guidance from

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trained professionals, we have seen some
some pretty incredible results. Again, more

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often than not those results aren't you
know, hundreds or thousands of people,

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right, We're talking about a handful
of folks, you know, across all

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of these decades of studies. Um, but we do, for instance,

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have you know, an account of
an individual back in like the seventies that

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took LSD and like completely stopped being
an alcoholic and like quit cigarettes and like

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you know, started becoming a super
great, functioning member of society again,

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So it's like, okay, that's
that's interesting. Um, and I do

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I wonder if maybe maybe our understanding
of these you know, compounds would be

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better if we hadn't had so much
religious garbage for years talking about how all

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this stuff was just demons and you
know, all that nonsense. What do

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you think on that, Kelly,
Yeah, that's a good that's that's really

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a good question. I mean,
MDMA has been around since like nineteen twelve.

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I didn't realize that, but it's
been around for a long long time.

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And um, it was intended to
stop bleeding. Actually, I guess

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there's a legend that's built up that
it was developed as an appetite suppressant,

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but it was actually developed as a
compound to stop bleeding, which I found

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really interesting. Yeah, right,
But I don't know how that was.

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But it wasn't until the night the
late seventies that psychiatrists started to using it

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for therapeutic purposes, and they made
claims it didn't enhance communication and patients that

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were you know, in session,
and it didn't also enhanced their ability to

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have insights. So they started doing
a lot of research with it at the

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time, and just like with LSD, the people who were part of the

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research started bringing at home and the
chemical hit the street. People started making

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it illegal or started making it in
illegal labs, and the next thing you

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know, it's a controlled substance.
And that's exactly what happened. And then

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in the nineteen eighties, during the
Reagan administration, they illegalized testing of all

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drugs that were illegal, so there
was no more testing on MDMA, no

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more testing on cannabis, anything that
was illegally United States you could no longer

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do clinical tests on. And that
didn't end until the nineteen nineties when they

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started picking it up again, and
they started finding out that it did help

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with PTSD anxiety and autistic adults,
and there was one more pain and terminally

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ill patients. So and I'm not
sure that it actually got rid of pain.

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I don't want to say I'm a
veteran MDMA user, but I have

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experienced it in my past, and
I don't think it got rid of any

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of my pain. But I can
see where it would have made it so

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I didn't care anymore. So I
think it might be good for that.

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But the people who do use it
are really quick to point out that it

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should only be given for reactive disorders
like PTSD, because there are some psychological

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conditions that can actually be made worse
by it. So you really need to

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take it under controlled circumstances with a
well, i'd like to say, with

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a licensed physician, which is something
that can't happen now, But this is

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something that we need to do because
if it does have this therapeutic value,

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we should be using it. We
should be helping people. We should be

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helping people like Brandon, showing them, giving them that enhanced insight that maybe

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what they're doing is wrong. Right, It's seems very very logical to me,

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So Helen, you want to add
more to it. So like the

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research that I do with studies that
weren't in the United States, they were

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in Israel and other parts of the
euro opinion where this stuff actually is being

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tested on a regular basis. And
what's what they have found is that if

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there it is taken in a therapytic
setting and it's set and setting, you

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know, they're usually with a trained
physician that has been trained how to administrate

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the administer the drug, the dosage. You know, they do all the

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medical stuff to make sure it's safe. Um they know the patient's ex sense

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of history. Um. So That's
a big thing too, because they have

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to know any physical mental conditions that
they may have that it can actually have

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an adverse effect. And there,
and it's set up so the therapist is

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with them the whole time and um
bring in asking them questions and bringing them

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through the process. This is not
I mean, like I'm sure just you

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know, Brandon took it for fun
and then he stopped being a racist,

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which I get. Yes, it's
great, but if we want to use

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it in a therapytic way, let's
use it in a therapic way like we

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use any other drug. Like I
take adderall in an anti presst I got

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prescribed as by my doctor and they're
beneficial to me. Have we treated like

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something to give people that have you
know, um, anger disorders, you

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know, alcoholism, you know all
these different conditions that they could be improved

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by this with a trained physician that
could help them get over a lot of

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you know, things that are causing
hinders to their lives. I think it'd

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be great, but like anything else, you know, from aspirin to LSD,

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they're drugs, and you have to
be careful no matter what drug you're

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putting into your body that you it's
under a doctor's order, you know,

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so you know, just just something
thing about you know, you know going

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forward, you know, because we
don't we don't promote you know, listen,

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drug produce on this show. You
know it should be under a doctor

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description, so you know, be
safe, be safe children. Okay,

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anyway, Raphael, do you have
any do you have any other points to

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bring up on this. Yeah,
I'll just echo everything you just said.

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You know, drugs, the dose
makes the uh poison, so every drug

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can be used in good and bad
ways. Um. I'll also point out

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that Brandon or Brandon or whatever the
person's name was, he didn't just like

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overnight go I love all everybody who
I used to hate. You know,

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he he was working at that.
He got himself like some kind of like

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inclusive tivity helper and consultant of some
type. You started meditating. And he

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even admits in the articles that he
still has these like anti semitic and bigoted

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ideas at points, and that's when
he had to do it. So like

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you, like Helen said, and
like I think I might have mentioned,

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you know, this is one guy. It's not it's not a magic bullet

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to fix things. And even if
it's enough to like reboot your brain,

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going, Man, I was an
asshole. These all these things, like

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so many things in our lives like
take time and they take effort. You

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know, this is not like you
didn't turn a bigot into like a you

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know, the most woe quote unquote
person on the planet or anything. You

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know, So it's um, don't
get confused, don't drugs don't just fix

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everything immediately. Yeah, sorry,
what you got? Yeah, I think

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I think that that's a really good, a really good point there. And

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um, at at one point in
this article it mentions something which I'm gonna

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be honest or all I did in
fact check because I don't really care if

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it's true. It's just an interesting
thought one way or the other. Because

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it was just like MDMA has been
used by the Taliban apparently during like divine

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prayer chants, and again like I
don't even know if that is true,

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um, but I could see it
happening, just like I could see any

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religious ceremony occurring with some type of
hallucinogenic drug, mainly because spoiler alert,

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a lot of them have been for
a really really long time, right it's

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been. I know, I was
shocked I know something about the way this

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volcano has the fumes coming up above
the Oracle of Delphi or something. I

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don't know. You're gonna have to
talk to one of those archaeology but yeah,

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it's it's this definitely seems to me
like there's a lot to a lot

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for us to study, but we
have to do it in a responsible way,

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um, because I think unfortunately what
ends up happening oftentimes is you get

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you know those uh, let's just
say some former comedian failed at it,

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started doing a podcast, you know, works out too much telling people to

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like do all this type of drugs
on a regular basis. You know,

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some some some talking head like that. I'm not sure you know who I'm

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thinking of at the moment, but
yeah, Kelly, what what else you

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got on this for us with the
MDMA, Like, well, I you

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know, um, a couple of
things I wanted to point out. I

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thought it was really interesting that one
of the things that snapped Brandon out when

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he was under the influence of the
MDMA was he started questioning his relationships and

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know that he why why can't I
keep a relationship? What is the problem

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here? And you realize that it
was his beliefs, his fascist beliefs.

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And I thought that was really interesting
because that one of the things that MDMA

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supposedly does for you is, you
know, you learn to love people.

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And if you're not getting that love
back, I mean, that's probably what

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was making them wonder And I thought
that was interesting. But does anybody know

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how MDMA works? Like it it
increases the flow and reuptake of serotonin in

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your brain. Right, do you
anybody know how antidepressants work? Selexa Lexa

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pro say, yeah, making serotonin
in your brain. Yeah, I just

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wanted to just want to make a
note of that. It kind of makes

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you look at microdocing in a whole
new light, That's all I'm saying.

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So go ahead, Helen, what
do you go ahead? Like? Like

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this is the thing about like the
I think this conversation we're having is very

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important because we're talking about is how
do we break people out of bad ideas?

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And obviously, like we know that, like you were pointing out Raphael

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that he just didn't take MDMA like
he had to work at it, you

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know, I think the MDA helped
him become more introspective and go and like

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you say, Kelly, like why
my relationship is failing? You know,

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um, you know, maybe I
have some bad ideas. And then he

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started working on those things to be
like, Okay, I need to change

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the way I'm viewing things. And
when those racists I'm sure now he's trying,

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when those racist thoughts pop into his
brain, he questions them and he

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says that's and he works to say
that's untrue. You know, this is

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just you know, my reactionary brain, you know, And I think that's

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great and just. And you know, I would love if there was a

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magic drug we could give to all
terrible people and we could just give it

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to them and you know, they
would just stop being terrible. I would

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love that. But we live in
the world that is complicated and messy,

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and if I could take anything away
from this story, and I hope what

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the people will that it may not
be a drug, but I'm hoping.

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You know, when you know people
come to an AHA moment, they not

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only realize that they're at an AHA
moment, but they also need to work

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afterwards and not fall back into bad
belief in bad ideas. So you know,

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I'm this made me happy because there's
one less asshole in the world and

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I love that. So you know, I level a little bit of positivity

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on this show, so I'm gonna
take it and enjoy it. Yeah,

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And I think that's a fantastic way
to end on a good high note.

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So thanks so much everyone for watching
and listening, and if you want to

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hear more from the nonprofits,