Hi, and welcome to the nonprofits. And if we got a story for
you now. We picked this one out out of the Insider. It was
written by Amber Middleton and it is about a white supremacist who took MDMA for
a study ecstasy and it snapped him out of his bigoted beliefs. He actually
started questioning why he was doing this, why he was a bigot. This
is a really interesting thing. I'm hoping that maybe we can do some more
research into this. I know there has been some research into MDMA with things
like PTSD in the past, and I think it looks like a wide open
area of possibly therapeutic family Raphael, do you want to talk about it?
Yeah, this was a super interesting study where MGMA have this profound effect on
this person who really started questioning why they were like a white supremacist bigot.
I guess the first thing I say is all, as with all science media,
take this with a grain of salt. This is one person. It's
very interesting finding, and I'm hoping it really opens up other avenues of research
on MDMA in addition to like a PTSD that people have been studying. As
Like you said, Kelly, this is like it's it's it's an emerging science.
You know, there's not a lot out there yet. There's a lot
of questions. We you know, we don't really understand a lot about how
these drugs are working in the brain. But for me, the connection between
if there is a connection between like PTSD and bigotry, you know, how
much of bigotry is coming from some type of trauma, is some top point
in their lives? And if it is coming from some type of trauma,
can you treat it like PTSD in some ways? You know, clearly for
this person they have this profound effect. And uh, you know, it's
it'll be really interesting to see what the follow up papers are on this,
Helen, Do you have any comments? So can we just apply Brandon for
letting go of bad ideas? Let's load ran in a So I think that's
great. But as someone that took psychology and I did a thesis study on
the effects of MDAMA on generalized anxiety disorder, it was so it was really
it did have really good positive effects. But just because you give someone a
drug and something good happens doesn't mean that this will affect every racist. Okay,
Like, don't please, don't give every racist lucinogenic and expect them not
to be racist anymore. That's and how this works. But I do think
because drugs like these can open the mind, it get it helps you become
very introspective and reflect and do a lot of reflecting on why you think the
way that you think, your place in the world. How MDA can create
feelings of great closeness and bonding with other people, but it could also make
it super territorial. So you know, there's positive. There's positive and negatives
to every drug. And it has to do with brain chemistry, environment,
um, you're the way you've been socialized. A whole bunch of different factors
can go into this. Now, I think it's not you're at what concert
that you're at my concert that you're at. Yeah, like have profound I
mean, like I hope someone's gone to a concert and stop being a racist.
That'd be great too, So so you know, I think it's commendable.
But this is not science, people, This is just one guy who
took a drug and decided that, Hey, I'm a white supremacist. You
know it's not serving me anymore. Why do I think this way? We're
all just people. I think that's wonderful. But again, like I would
love to see more of a like, you know, a meta analysis of
this rather than just one. Do have you know, becoming a better person?
But I do applaud Brandon, We're becoming a better person. So if
you're watching this, Brandon plus for sure, for sure, So oh go
ahead, go ahead, And sorry, I just I definitely think it's just
another one of those, you know, pieces in the overall puzzle that we've
continued to see, uh, you know, time after time where there is
something about these hallucinogenic compounds in the world that when mixed with proper guidance from
trained professionals, we have seen some some pretty incredible results. Again, more
often than not those results aren't you know, hundreds or thousands of people,
right, We're talking about a handful of folks, you know, across all
of these decades of studies. Um, but we do, for instance,
have you know, an account of an individual back in like the seventies that
took LSD and like completely stopped being an alcoholic and like quit cigarettes and like
you know, started becoming a super great, functioning member of society again,
So it's like, okay, that's that's interesting. Um, and I do
I wonder if maybe maybe our understanding of these you know, compounds would be
better if we hadn't had so much religious garbage for years talking about how all
this stuff was just demons and you know, all that nonsense. What do
you think on that, Kelly, Yeah, that's a good that's that's really
a good question. I mean, MDMA has been around since like nineteen twelve.
I didn't realize that, but it's been around for a long long time.
And um, it was intended to stop bleeding. Actually, I guess
there's a legend that's built up that it was developed as an appetite suppressant,
but it was actually developed as a compound to stop bleeding, which I found
really interesting. Yeah, right, But I don't know how that was.
But it wasn't until the night the late seventies that psychiatrists started to using it
for therapeutic purposes, and they made claims it didn't enhance communication and patients that
were you know, in session, and it didn't also enhanced their ability to
have insights. So they started doing a lot of research with it at the
time, and just like with LSD, the people who were part of the
research started bringing at home and the chemical hit the street. People started making
it illegal or started making it in illegal labs, and the next thing you
know, it's a controlled substance. And that's exactly what happened. And then
in the nineteen eighties, during the Reagan administration, they illegalized testing of all
drugs that were illegal, so there was no more testing on MDMA, no
more testing on cannabis, anything that was illegally United States you could no longer
do clinical tests on. And that didn't end until the nineteen nineties when they
started picking it up again, and they started finding out that it did help
with PTSD anxiety and autistic adults, and there was one more pain and terminally
ill patients. So and I'm not sure that it actually got rid of pain.
I don't want to say I'm a veteran MDMA user, but I have
experienced it in my past, and I don't think it got rid of any
of my pain. But I can see where it would have made it so
I didn't care anymore. So I think it might be good for that.
But the people who do use it are really quick to point out that it
should only be given for reactive disorders like PTSD, because there are some psychological
conditions that can actually be made worse by it. So you really need to
take it under controlled circumstances with a well, i'd like to say, with
a licensed physician, which is something that can't happen now, But this is
something that we need to do because if it does have this therapeutic value,
we should be using it. We should be helping people. We should be
helping people like Brandon, showing them, giving them that enhanced insight that maybe
what they're doing is wrong. Right, It's seems very very logical to me,
So Helen, you want to add more to it. So like the
research that I do with studies that weren't in the United States, they were
in Israel and other parts of the euro opinion where this stuff actually is being
tested on a regular basis. And what's what they have found is that if
there it is taken in a therapytic setting and it's set and setting, you
know, they're usually with a trained physician that has been trained how to administrate
the administer the drug, the dosage. You know, they do all the
medical stuff to make sure it's safe. Um they know the patient's ex sense
of history. Um. So That's a big thing too, because they have
to know any physical mental conditions that they may have that it can actually have
an adverse effect. And there, and it's set up so the therapist is
with them the whole time and um bring in asking them questions and bringing them
through the process. This is not I mean, like I'm sure just you
know, Brandon took it for fun and then he stopped being a racist,
which I get. Yes, it's great, but if we want to use
it in a therapytic way, let's use it in a therapic way like we
use any other drug. Like I take adderall in an anti presst I got
prescribed as by my doctor and they're beneficial to me. Have we treated like
something to give people that have you know, um, anger disorders, you
know, alcoholism, you know all these different conditions that they could be improved
by this with a trained physician that could help them get over a lot of
you know, things that are causing hinders to their lives. I think it'd
be great, but like anything else, you know, from aspirin to LSD,
they're drugs, and you have to be careful no matter what drug you're
putting into your body that you it's under a doctor's order, you know,
so you know, just just something thing about you know, you know going
forward, you know, because we don't we don't promote you know, listen,
drug produce on this show. You know it should be under a doctor
description, so you know, be safe, be safe children. Okay,
anyway, Raphael, do you have any do you have any other points to
bring up on this. Yeah, I'll just echo everything you just said.
You know, drugs, the dose makes the uh poison, so every drug
can be used in good and bad ways. Um. I'll also point out
that Brandon or Brandon or whatever the person's name was, he didn't just like
overnight go I love all everybody who I used to hate. You know,
he he was working at that. He got himself like some kind of like
inclusive tivity helper and consultant of some type. You started meditating. And he
even admits in the articles that he still has these like anti semitic and bigoted
ideas at points, and that's when he had to do it. So like
you, like Helen said, and like I think I might have mentioned,
you know, this is one guy. It's not it's not a magic bullet
to fix things. And even if it's enough to like reboot your brain,
going, Man, I was an asshole. These all these things, like
so many things in our lives like take time and they take effort. You
know, this is not like you didn't turn a bigot into like a you
know, the most woe quote unquote person on the planet or anything. You
know, So it's um, don't get confused, don't drugs don't just fix
everything immediately. Yeah, sorry, what you got? Yeah, I think
I think that that's a really good, a really good point there. And
um, at at one point in this article it mentions something which I'm gonna
be honest or all I did in fact check because I don't really care if
it's true. It's just an interesting thought one way or the other. Because
it was just like MDMA has been used by the Taliban apparently during like divine
prayer chants, and again like I don't even know if that is true,
um, but I could see it happening, just like I could see any
religious ceremony occurring with some type of hallucinogenic drug, mainly because spoiler alert,
a lot of them have been for a really really long time, right it's
been. I know, I was shocked I know something about the way this
volcano has the fumes coming up above the Oracle of Delphi or something. I
don't know. You're gonna have to talk to one of those archaeology but yeah,
it's it's this definitely seems to me like there's a lot to a lot
for us to study, but we have to do it in a responsible way,
um, because I think unfortunately what ends up happening oftentimes is you get
you know those uh, let's just say some former comedian failed at it,
started doing a podcast, you know, works out too much telling people to
like do all this type of drugs on a regular basis. You know,
some some some talking head like that. I'm not sure you know who I'm
thinking of at the moment, but yeah, Kelly, what what else you
got on this for us with the MDMA, Like, well, I you
know, um, a couple of things I wanted to point out. I
thought it was really interesting that one of the things that snapped Brandon out when
he was under the influence of the MDMA was he started questioning his relationships and
know that he why why can't I keep a relationship? What is the problem
here? And you realize that it was his beliefs, his fascist beliefs.
And I thought that was really interesting because that one of the things that MDMA
supposedly does for you is, you know, you learn to love people.
And if you're not getting that love back, I mean, that's probably what
was making them wonder And I thought that was interesting. But does anybody know
how MDMA works? Like it it increases the flow and reuptake of serotonin in
your brain. Right, do you anybody know how antidepressants work? Selexa Lexa
pro say, yeah, making serotonin in your brain. Yeah, I just
wanted to just want to make a note of that. It kind of makes
you look at microdocing in a whole new light, That's all I'm saying.
So go ahead, Helen, what do you go ahead? Like? Like
this is the thing about like the I think this conversation we're having is very
important because we're talking about is how do we break people out of bad ideas?
And obviously, like we know that, like you were pointing out Raphael
that he just didn't take MDMA like he had to work at it, you
know, I think the MDA helped him become more introspective and go and like
you say, Kelly, like why my relationship is failing? You know,
um, you know, maybe I have some bad ideas. And then he
started working on those things to be like, Okay, I need to change
the way I'm viewing things. And when those racists I'm sure now he's trying,
when those racist thoughts pop into his brain, he questions them and he
says that's and he works to say that's untrue. You know, this is
just you know, my reactionary brain, you know, And I think that's
great and just. And you know, I would love if there was a
magic drug we could give to all terrible people and we could just give it
to them and you know, they would just stop being terrible. I would
love that. But we live in the world that is complicated and messy,
and if I could take anything away from this story, and I hope what
the people will that it may not be a drug, but I'm hoping.
You know, when you know people come to an AHA moment, they not
only realize that they're at an AHA moment, but they also need to work
afterwards and not fall back into bad belief in bad ideas. So you know,
I'm this made me happy because there's one less asshole in the world and
I love that. So you know, I level a little bit of positivity
on this show, so I'm gonna take it and enjoy it. Yeah,
And I think that's a fantastic way to end on a good high note.
So thanks so much everyone for watching and listening, and if you want to
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