WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.480 --> 00:00:04.080
Hello, and welcome to this episode
of Superhero Ethics today, as our first

2
00:00:04.120 --> 00:00:07.759
episode for twenty twenty three, we're
kind of doing a We're gonna be talking

3
00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:10.199
about a movie that a lot of
you may not have seen, but that

4
00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:13.519
it's fundamentally based in a question that's
kind of at the heart and soul of

5
00:00:13.679 --> 00:00:17.600
everything we do here on Superhero Ethics. We're talking about Dread, not judge

6
00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:22.320
dread. We have traded up from
Sylvester Stallone to Carl Urban and we're talking

7
00:00:22.359 --> 00:00:28.359
about dystopia. We're talking about the
use of force to deal with crime and

8
00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.840
problems like that, and the idea
of fighting for order in a world of

9
00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:36.159
chaos, and all the problems that
can be in regarding that. Whether you've

10
00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:39.079
seen the movie or not seen the
movie, there's a lot we can discuss

11
00:00:39.079 --> 00:00:43.560
because it's it's really about very universal
topics to comic book movies, to superhero

12
00:00:43.640 --> 00:00:46.240
stories, to all the rest of
it. So I've managed to get through

13
00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:49.799
this entire intro without using any of
the bad puns that Paul was probably dreading

14
00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:53.320
I would use. So let's go
to the commercials. No reaction whatsoever.

15
00:00:53.600 --> 00:01:00.439
Oh, I like, you know, gave my best Gerald of you could

16
00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:04.319
be Carol Drivia Scare that's good.
No, the you know, Okay,

17
00:01:04.439 --> 00:01:17.799
that's fair, that's fair. Welcome
back a Matthew host. I'm joined by

18
00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:19.519
fairly frequent guest mister Paul Hoppy.
Paul, how are we doing today?

19
00:01:21.719 --> 00:01:26.840
Doing pretty good? Yeah, I
rewatched Dread last night, and I think

20
00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:30.439
I had pretty much the same feelings
I had about it the first time I

21
00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:34.439
saw it. You know, it's
a movie about a lone man with a

22
00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:40.400
gun and a motorcycle and a helmet, very importantly a helmet against the world.

23
00:01:40.920 --> 00:01:46.799
But there's also a blonde who you
know, seems to be like,

24
00:01:47.640 --> 00:01:51.319
you know, I don't know,
it's it's I feel like there's a lot

25
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:56.400
of tropes that it like really leans
into and then often kind of pivots away

26
00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:59.680
from. Well, let me give
a quick summary of the movie, because

27
00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:00.599
a lot of folks may not have
seen it or may not remember it,

28
00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:04.239
and we're not gonna be talking about
the exact details in the movie as much

29
00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:07.439
as just kind of the questions that
it raises. But the details are important.

30
00:02:07.199 --> 00:02:13.120
So the movie is about a dystopia. We're told that most of America

31
00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.840
has been irradiated and what's now referred
to as the Megalopalypse. The kind of

32
00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:23.039
mostly unending metropolitan area that starts to
know at Washington, d c. And

33
00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:27.879
goes all the way along the Eastern
seaboard up to Boston has become in the

34
00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:34.360
sort of future post apocalyptic time called
Megacity one. It's just this huge city

35
00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:40.080
and crime is incredibly rampant. Murder, robbery, sexual assault, all these

36
00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:46.240
things are really terrible, and as
frequently happens at a time of kind of

37
00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:51.400
just total desperation and like feeling like
crime is overwhelming everyone. The government has

38
00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:57.840
created a basically they've severely amped up
what police can do to deal with it,

39
00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:02.680
and there are now these things called
judges. And judges are basically hypertrained.

40
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.680
They have like all sorts of armor
and incredible weapons. I don't think

41
00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:12.560
they have superpowers, but they have
incredible training and weapons and armor, and

42
00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:17.280
they to be judge, jury and
executioner. And so their jobs to go

43
00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:22.400
out and to deal with crime.
And if a person, you know,

44
00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:25.479
they're allowed to use lethal force quite
freely to try and stop crime. But

45
00:03:25.599 --> 00:03:31.159
most importantly, if they, you
know, observe someone committing a crime that

46
00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:36.960
fits what is there that this society
standard for lethal violence. They are allowed

47
00:03:37.000 --> 00:03:39.360
to deliver an execution, a death
sentence, right there on the spot.

48
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:44.280
And on the one hand, they
have to be very sure, so like

49
00:03:44.319 --> 00:03:49.240
when a psychic is thinks that something
had happened, she says with certainty,

50
00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.199
they still won't do it. But
it does seem to be a thing of

51
00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:54.319
like if I saw it with mown
eyes, then I know what happened without

52
00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:58.400
the sort of like let's investigate for
context kind of the stuff. And we

53
00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:00.960
can get into those details in a
bit. But but it's very much about

54
00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:04.479
a dystopian society where all this is
happening. And then kind of funny,

55
00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:08.199
give what Paul and I have been
talking about on other podcasts, because we've

56
00:04:08.240 --> 00:04:12.319
been saying, like it'd be kind
of nice to have a movie where there

57
00:04:12.400 --> 00:04:15.120
isn't some great plot arc by the
hero. There isn't some like major,

58
00:04:15.680 --> 00:04:19.120
like world changing event. It's kind
of just a day in the life.

59
00:04:19.920 --> 00:04:24.839
That's really what this movie is.
Our heroes. Our heroes is a loaded

60
00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:29.879
term which will definitely discuss as well
our protagonists. Yeah, who is dread

61
00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:34.040
Who's the Carl Urban character who keeps
his helmet on the entire movie, I

62
00:04:34.079 --> 00:04:36.519
think really kind of like I have
a sort of like, you know,

63
00:04:36.920 --> 00:04:41.720
Carl Urban grunted so that Pedro Pascal
could tilt his head, you know,

64
00:04:41.839 --> 00:04:45.439
like, yes, there's definitely a
like, okay, Urban really did it

65
00:04:45.480 --> 00:04:49.120
pretty well. And but he's paired
with it. It's a training day kind

66
00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:51.720
of a movie. He's paired with
a rookie cop. It's her day to

67
00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:55.360
kind of see if she can be
a judge or she's gonna get kicked out

68
00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:59.480
of the program. She's young,
she's blonde, she's pretty, and she

69
00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:03.160
doesn't a helmet because it interferes with
her psychic abilities. Yeah, yeah,

70
00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.279
yeah, that's yeah, that's the
reason, you know nothing at all,

71
00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:10.680
fair enough. And yeah, she's
a mutant, which the don't really explain

72
00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:13.519
much but is a thing in the
movie. And basically they go in to

73
00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:16.600
deal with a problem is happening and
they realize they're actually dealing with one of

74
00:05:16.639 --> 00:05:20.399
the foremost drug gangs in the world. And it was very much of the

75
00:05:20.480 --> 00:05:25.959
Wire kind of like if you have
watched the first couple at Seasons of the

76
00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:30.720
Wire and you know all about like
the towers, like Marlo Stanfield is watching

77
00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:32.639
the criminals in this and like applauding
and being like, you have the right

78
00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:36.079
idea, because they figure out the
judges are they are. They figure out

79
00:05:36.079 --> 00:05:40.360
the judges have captured a witness who
could bring the whole thing down. Who

80
00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.560
is Avon Barksdale for the record,
Yeah, yeah, very much though no,

81
00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:49.040
I mean literally that's what Harris Siegan
Literally, that's Wood Harris, the

82
00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:51.920
actor who played Avon Barksdale. Oh
yeah, yeah, very good point,

83
00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:57.120
very good point. That that's I
hadn't even connected that. And so they

84
00:05:57.439 --> 00:06:00.120
shut down the whole sort of tower. It's like a you know, a

85
00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.199
set of buildings that holds like thousands
of peep tens of thousands of people.

86
00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:09.000
And then the whole movie is just
our protagonists trying to both escape and or

87
00:06:09.079 --> 00:06:14.839
stay alive and or capture and take
down this criminal gang that's that's doing all

88
00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:20.319
these terrible things. And so here's
my question, Paul when I finished watching

89
00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:23.040
the movie, because this movie,
Paul has been trying to get me to

90
00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.519
watch for a long time, and
I enjoyed it, but I had to

91
00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:29.079
run of those movies where I'm like, I don't know if I'm a green

92
00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:32.759
with the writers on this, because
I fundamentally walk away from this going the

93
00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:36.759
judges are the bad guys. Like
the criminals aren't good, but these judges

94
00:06:36.800 --> 00:06:43.639
are fundamentally making everything around them worse. Am I Is that what this movie

95
00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:46.800
is about? Is it supposed to
be a commentary on overly aggressive police tactics.

96
00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:49.360
Is it supposed to be like most
of us are cheering on Dread and

97
00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:54.800
watching him blow these people up in
horrible and terrible ways. What was your

98
00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:57.079
take on, Like, what's the
movie actually trying to say? Because I

99
00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:03.040
was very confused. Yeah, I
think confusion is well warranted. You know,

100
00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:10.439
I think it's interesting because just to
what you said earlier, the writer,

101
00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:15.920
the screenwriter actually said, I didn't
think Dread could have a great epiphany,

102
00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.639
but there's definitely a change in him
over the course of the movie.

103
00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.759
You know, he makes a very
clear statement at the beginning of the film,

104
00:07:21.759 --> 00:07:25.600
which he then contradicts at the end. But you know, that's about

105
00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:29.279
as far as the shift goes in
terms of that he doesn't think she'll pass

106
00:07:29.319 --> 00:07:32.720
the assessment, and then passing her. Not that he doesn't think she'll pass.

107
00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:36.680
He says, if you lose control
of your primary weapon, that's an

108
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:41.480
automatic fail. She lost control over
primary weapon and she's like, yeah,

109
00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.079
I know I failed, but until
the thing's over, like I'm still gonna

110
00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:53.920
do this. Right. So it's
I think it's complicated, right because I

111
00:07:53.959 --> 00:08:00.120
think on the one hand, the
story of the movie is it's very straight

112
00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.040
forward UM. If you've seen the
raid also, it's basically the same premise,

113
00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.079
right, like you have these cops
entering this building that then gets shut

114
00:08:07.160 --> 00:08:13.040
down and they're trying to make it
to you know, the primary villain at

115
00:08:13.079 --> 00:08:18.879
the top. I do think that
the movie is aware and to some extent

116
00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:26.160
is commenting on UM the you know, the militarization of police, the UM

117
00:08:26.240 --> 00:08:31.279
you know, police killing people,
the the justice system, you know,

118
00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:39.879
having justice and in quotes and I
think the original Dread Judge Dread comic from

119
00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:43.799
I think two thousand a d UM
is the thing that is part of UM,

120
00:08:45.039 --> 00:08:48.200
which is British by the way,
right, it's it's a it's a

121
00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:54.519
British it's it's an American character,
but it's a it's a British story about

122
00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:58.320
American policing. To some extent,
I think that's interest, you know.

123
00:08:58.519 --> 00:09:05.080
And and then this film I believe
was made in South Africa actually UM and

124
00:09:05.080 --> 00:09:09.639
and the writer of the screenplay is
also English as well. And so I

125
00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:18.080
do think there's a level of commentary
on you know, American policing and you

126
00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:22.200
know, some of the problems with
it and with the concept in general.

127
00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:28.279
And you know, you you referenced
the government like I'm not sure there's a

128
00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:33.840
government, Like there's there's this judge
academy basically, right, there's like the

129
00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:39.519
judges, and it seems like that
is the government, like basically, which

130
00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:43.480
you know, kind of raises the
question like what is a government? You

131
00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:48.240
know, the idea that like most
places can kind of only successfully have one

132
00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:52.960
government at a time. You know, Um, I think there's this idea

133
00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:56.000
of like the consent of the government
being a thing that I mean, I

134
00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:01.840
don't think exists, Like there's there's
no UNI universal buy in really anywhere,

135
00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:07.919
and societies are not generally super opt
in right on like a country level.

136
00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.120
And I also think like silence is
not consent. So I think when it

137
00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:16.960
comes to government and like what governments
do, like the way I look at

138
00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:20.360
it, which I feel like is
actually kind of on display here, is

139
00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:28.399
that a government is an entity created
by people and perpetuated by people that exerts

140
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:35.080
influence over a larger number of people, some of those people consenting to that

141
00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:39.759
government and some of them just like, I mean, you could say everyone's

142
00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:41.000
oppressed by it, but if you
consent to it, then I guess you

143
00:10:41.039 --> 00:10:43.559
could say, well, that's then
that's not oppression really. But like,

144
00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:50.639
but the point being here, there's
this organization of judges that's just like,

145
00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:56.639
we're going to do this thing because
it's what we do. And it does

146
00:10:56.720 --> 00:11:01.639
not seem to me like the population
consents to this in any fashion. You

147
00:11:01.720 --> 00:11:03.559
know. I think that's very true, and I think that's for me,

148
00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:05.639
that's one of the first things that
really grabbed me. And I'll say,

149
00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:07.879
all this time you said about consent
and stuff like that, I'm so tempted

150
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:11.360
to go into like a civics conversation
here, but I mean, no,

151
00:11:11.559 --> 00:11:15.039
that's a that's a long conversation there, And I would say, there,

152
00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:16.559
I read with emotion what you're saying. I think I might frame it a

153
00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:20.519
little bit differently, but certainly I
think you're right in this in this setting.

154
00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.559
And that's part of why I kept
thinking about this in terms of,

155
00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:28.519
like, I don't think the judges
are because he says at both the beginning

156
00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.000
and the end of the movie,
that he sees his role as is like

157
00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:37.320
trying to bring order out of chaos, right, And I fundamentally don't think

158
00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:39.639
he's doing that. I think the
judges are actually doing the opposite. And

159
00:11:41.080 --> 00:11:43.480
part of that is, granted that
we've had a whole lot of focus on

160
00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:48.960
police from a more sociological perspective and
things like that since the time this movie

161
00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:54.720
was made, and especially since the
original movie. But there's like four things

162
00:11:54.759 --> 00:11:56.759
here I'm wanting to say. So
let me actually go back a bit to

163
00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:00.840
the original movie. The first movie
was Syvester Stallone, Okay, which I

164
00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:03.639
have not seen for the record,
Sure, I assume you don't mind if

165
00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:05.519
I spoil it though, right,
I'm aware that he takes off his helmet

166
00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:11.039
and I've literally seen the end scene
on YouTube or something. Yeah, I

167
00:12:11.080 --> 00:12:13.519
don't care about it, not going
to watch. I mean a joke about

168
00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:18.039
Sylvester Stallone's acting. I think at
times Sylvester Stallone can be a phenomenal actor.

169
00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:20.279
Sure, I think he's also one
of the absolute best at phoning it

170
00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.519
in there is, and he learned
early, like, oh, this is

171
00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.679
a part I care about. I'm
going to really work at this acting or

172
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.960
Okay, this is a paycheck,
I'm going to phone it in. Yeah,

173
00:12:31.200 --> 00:12:33.480
Judge Dredd is a phone it in
movie. But what I'm going to

174
00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:37.480
that is the way that movie was
marketed. That movie was coming out at

175
00:12:37.480 --> 00:12:43.519
a time when you know, the
cultural zeitgeist was very much in a place

176
00:12:43.600 --> 00:12:48.840
of crime is bad, drugs are
bad, violence is bad, and so

177
00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.399
any in all things that we do
to stop it, even things that seem

178
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:58.919
like downright sadistic and terrible are totally
okay. And you know, Lethal Weapon

179
00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:01.759
was a really popular set of movies
about a cop who wouldn't play by the

180
00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:07.159
rules because the rules were stopping him
from truly fighting crime. And by the

181
00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:09.559
way, most of that crime,
of course being done by people of color,

182
00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:13.080
with the one movie where that's They're
South Africans, which is a whole

183
00:13:13.080 --> 00:13:18.919
other thing, but like that whole
like Reagan Giuliani, zeitgeist was very much

184
00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.159
there and went on into the nineties
and certainly is now still very much here

185
00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:24.240
today. But I think today,
at least large parts of society are much

186
00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:28.480
more critical about it. When Judge
Dread came out, the parts of our

187
00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.120
society that were critical about it was
certainly there, but a lot quieter and

188
00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.720
not being paid attention to. And
I don't remember much about the movie,

189
00:13:33.759 --> 00:13:39.480
but I specifically remember that, like, you know, the way it was

190
00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:45.559
marketed was crime as a disease and
He's the cure, Like you were supposed

191
00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:50.360
to be cheering him on as he
violently, sadistically killed these bad people.

192
00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.120
I'm using quote marks with my fingers, which is bad radio, but you

193
00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:58.960
know, you know what I mean. And I think part of why I

194
00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.799
was so hesitant to see this movie
is because of that, Because like I

195
00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:03.080
didn't think about as much as a
kid when I watched it, but thinking

196
00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:05.720
about it today, I was like, I don't want to watch a movie

197
00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.799
about how cool it is that a
person, a cop, gets to use

198
00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:13.519
horrific levels of violence in order to
stop crime, when like, yeah,

199
00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:18.480
like this. And so when I
watched this movie, like I said,

200
00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.320
I kept wondering, is the writer
understanding the criticism they're doing? And I

201
00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.879
think they were, And like as
you said, and again I also wondered

202
00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.480
to what extent It's like the writer
had an idea of being social commentary,

203
00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.720
but somewhere in the process they also
were like Okay, but let's also give

204
00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:35.519
the audience what they want in terms
of all the cool explosions and stuff like

205
00:14:35.559 --> 00:14:39.600
that, because fundamentally, and this
goes to where I started from your point

206
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:43.679
about the consent, one of things
I'm really struck by is no one in

207
00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.120
this building in which they're living horrible
lives, to be clear, Like the

208
00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:52.000
person a woman named Mama, who
runs the gang. The gang is called

209
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.480
the Mama Gang, Like she thinks
that the judges are on one side of

210
00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.440
a floor of the like the quadrilateral
of the building, and she just uses

211
00:15:01.519 --> 00:15:05.519
machine guns to kill like two dozen
people while trying to get the gang the

212
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:11.519
judges. Like it's a reign of
terror. And yet everyone there is like,

213
00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:13.840
you judges aren't here to help.
Even the people who run the medical

214
00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.960
center, who are kind of neutral
and different from it, are like,

215
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:20.519
I'm not going to help you.
You're already dead. I can't help you.

216
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.320
I don't want to help you.
And so to me, what all

217
00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:28.759
that goes to is I'm seeing it
through the lens of New York City and

218
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.240
Giuliani and now George Floyd and all
this stuff, where one of the things

219
00:15:33.320 --> 00:15:35.039
I think that's where they come out
is that one of the biggest reasons why

220
00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.960
there is such horrible breakdown relationships between
cops and the communities they are, in

221
00:15:41.000 --> 00:15:46.039
theories supposed to be protecting, is
that cops don't treat those communities as one's

222
00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.399
their members of and want to help. They act like invading armies, you

223
00:15:48.440 --> 00:15:54.000
know, the military technology and seeing
the people as the enemy. And this

224
00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:00.440
movie is like all of that to
times a million, you know, long

225
00:16:00.519 --> 00:16:03.240
Randall, I'll let you jump in
here, but just to say, like

226
00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:06.519
to I think that was why to
me the movie was so interesting, but

227
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:08.440
also so like I wonder what the
writer is doing and how much the writer

228
00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:15.000
realizes what they're doing. I think
they completely realize what they're doing. Um.

229
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.200
I think they also are doing you
know, as we talked about in

230
00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.720
Desperado, you know, kind of
trying to have it both ways, you

231
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:29.600
know. Um. And just in
terms of like the original movie it came

232
00:16:29.600 --> 00:16:32.960
out in ninety five, right,
which was one year after you know,

233
00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:37.960
Newt Gingrich and is like contract with
America, Like, you know, calling

234
00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:44.360
it a contract with America is like
basically implying that it's like that there's some

235
00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:48.759
kind of consents, right, and
like disagreement and and then they started,

236
00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:53.240
you know, doing all these horrible
mandatory minimum sentences and U that was right

237
00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:59.720
around when um Giuliani, right,
and and Bill Bretton in New York were

238
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:06.000
And it's it's interesting because like the
New York that we grew up in as

239
00:17:06.079 --> 00:17:11.480
little kids, like was I mean, I mean I lived in Hell's Kitchen,

240
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.720
you know, like and it was
called that not just like arbitrarrily.

241
00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:19.279
It's like there were a lot of
murders, you know. Um, it's

242
00:17:19.319 --> 00:17:25.079
funny because I actually grew up in
um these buildings called Manhattan Plaza that were

243
00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:30.039
like these two towers that were,
um, you know, like this village

244
00:17:30.079 --> 00:17:33.279
within a city that actually kind of
reminds me. I mean, it wasn't

245
00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:36.559
at all like it was like the
opposite of this peach trees here that you

246
00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:40.759
know, the Mama Clan like runs. But um, you know this idea

247
00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:44.079
of like you can basically have like
a city within a city, you know,

248
00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:49.680
in a building. UM. And
I think that the movie, like

249
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:57.559
it definitely, I think it wants
you to like dread root for Dread,

250
00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:07.359
but also understand that the whole thing
is just super messed up, and that

251
00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:12.279
a lot of what he's doing and
um. At one point there's there's this

252
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:23.799
one dude who who's shooting at um
at dread and um Anderson right, and

253
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:29.319
um, oh that's pretty funny.
Her name is Cassandra Anderson. Um.

254
00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:32.559
And in my notes I say that, um, she totally you know,

255
00:18:32.599 --> 00:18:37.079
she Cassie and andor's this guy in
the face um and and uh you know,

256
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:41.720
there's have a lot of the same
letters. But then later she sees

257
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:48.920
like that this guy they're basically helped
a little bit by um, by this

258
00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:51.680
woman right who has like a baby
in the next room or whatever. And

259
00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:56.119
then she sees a photograph that like
that dude was like probably the father of

260
00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.680
that child and was like this this
woman's partner, and and she just shot

261
00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:02.880
him in the face, you know, while he was I think, pleading

262
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.680
for his life. Yeah, and
that this woman like there's no question even

263
00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:08.119
like that maybe he was an absent
father or something. The woman is saying

264
00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.200
like, look, my husband's out
there. I know he's trying to kill

265
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:15.920
you. I'm very worried for him. The only reason I'm helping you is

266
00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.359
so that you don't get into a
fight and kill my husband. Right,

267
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:22.960
And you get and you know,
and so there's not gunfire here that kills

268
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.519
me or my baby and whatever.
But like, yeah, she's she's trying

269
00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:30.880
to protect her family. She's not
like I am helping you law people.

270
00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:34.880
You know, She's like, please
leave as quickly as possible without incident.

271
00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.440
And so, you know, clearly
that's some level of commentary on you know,

272
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:45.720
it's it's kind of the Desperado's equivalent
of like, you know, everybody

273
00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:48.359
I've killed has been somebody's brother or
somebody's father or somebody's kid. You know.

274
00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:55.039
But at the same time, you
know, the movie does like spectacularly

275
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:02.440
glorify extreme violence, right while also
Villa find the same from you know,

276
00:20:02.480 --> 00:20:08.359
the other characters who are a mix
of just horrible, horrible people who are

277
00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:18.920
very clearly sadistic, malicious, and
you know, trying to just do harm

278
00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:23.680
because yeah, pretty much just because
they're they're selfish and horrible. But also

279
00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:29.319
even those characters, it's like you
can see like some of them were victims

280
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:34.960
of others, and Mama was a
victim of of someone else before she became

281
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:40.119
who she was, you know.
And so I think there is a level

282
00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:48.240
of commentary on those structures and kind
of how people become violent, when they

283
00:20:48.359 --> 00:20:52.799
become violent. But at the same
time, it's like that's it's not a

284
00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.680
very deep level of that, right, Like it's there, it's an undertone

285
00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:03.079
and it's an implication, but it's
not like the overriding theme. Yeah,

286
00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:07.640
I mean this feels to me very
similar, but like in much broader strokes

287
00:21:07.720 --> 00:21:11.759
that to the Wire, you know, in that The Wire had the same

288
00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:18.039
idea of the problem is these systems
and no one crusader cop and no one

289
00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:22.440
like you know, drug dealer who
wants to like clean up the system,

290
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:25.880
Like none of them are ever going
to make any difference because the system is

291
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:30.440
so fundamentally built to keep everything in
place or to make things keep getting worse.

292
00:21:30.640 --> 00:21:34.119
And I think that's definitely because,
like I said, I think that

293
00:21:34.160 --> 00:21:38.000
in some ways that's why I really
like that there isn't any big societal change

294
00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:41.039
that happens at the end of this
movie. Right, there's no sense that

295
00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:45.640
there won't just be another Mama who
comes along to replace Mama, or that

296
00:21:45.759 --> 00:21:48.400
anyone in this world has learned a
lesson of like maybe we shouldn't do these

297
00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:53.640
criminal things. Like the judges are
just as in some ways, actually people

298
00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:57.240
have learned even to trust the judges
even less because we found there were some

299
00:21:57.240 --> 00:22:03.119
corrupt judges who wind up getting to
a fight our protagonists. Yeah, it's

300
00:22:03.240 --> 00:22:04.079
very much The Wire, but I
think you said it's on a much more

301
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.960
shallow level. Yeah, and you
know what I mean, it's a ninety

302
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.720
five minute movie that's like, you
know, a kind of an action with

303
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:17.519
like some suspense thriller kind of elements, right, And you know, I

304
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:21.359
mean, you're you're just not going
to get the same depth in an action

305
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.240
movie that you would get in you
know, fifty episodes of you know,

306
00:22:25.400 --> 00:22:29.200
some of the greatest television ever made. But you know, The Wire is

307
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.079
very hard to watch, and a
lot of people just who really love good

308
00:22:33.079 --> 00:22:34.960
television, I've just not watched The
Wire. We'll watch an episode or two

309
00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.920
because it's there isn't a good guy, there isn't a like someone to root

310
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.160
for. It's all about these flawed
people, and I love that. But

311
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:47.000
like, this is a much more
you know, I'm not gonna call it

312
00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:48.599
commercially successful because it's just such a
different kind of market, but I feel

313
00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:53.240
like this is made to be much
more mass market. Yeah, I think

314
00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:56.240
so. I mean it definitely.
It wasn't commercially successful, right, I

315
00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:00.359
mean it barely earns back its production
budget. It did become you know,

316
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:04.519
a cult classic, and oh that's
interesting you know post release. Um.

317
00:23:04.799 --> 00:23:07.039
But you know, it's a relatively
small movie. I mean, this is

318
00:23:07.079 --> 00:23:11.640
this is a B film, right
in terms of just in terms of budget.

319
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.640
It's it's the type of mid market
film that I feel like we don't

320
00:23:14.640 --> 00:23:17.880
see nearly as much of anymore,
and I think that's unfortunate. You know.

321
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:22.039
I feel like now they would be
like a movie like this, it

322
00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:26.519
either has to be you know,
nine figures or it, or it doesn't

323
00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:29.359
get made or it's like you know, a fan film, you know,

324
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:33.000
Whereas this was like thirty five to
forty million in twenty thirteen, so maybe

325
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:36.759
that's closer to like fifty million doll
or something. But um, but yeah,

326
00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:41.960
I think it didn't quite. I
think it's it achieved what it set

327
00:23:41.960 --> 00:23:45.519
out to achieve, like as a
movie, if not commercially you know where

328
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:52.480
I don't think it was aspiring to
be some like super deep social commentary with

329
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:59.079
um with really detailed characters, right, I think. But I do think

330
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:03.720
that there's a decent out beneath the
characters without um, you know, I

331
00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:06.200
mean, I think the performances are
really good. I think if if it

332
00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:10.640
was if if the performances were weaker, it could actually just be a legitimately

333
00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:15.359
bad movie. Um. There's some
cleverness, you know. There's the there's

334
00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.880
the four corrupt judges who one of
them's like, oh I'll you know,

335
00:24:18.920 --> 00:24:22.359
I'll see her and if I see
her first, I'll shoot her. And

336
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:25.920
if she sees me first, I'll
she'll hesitate and then I'll shoot her.

337
00:24:26.240 --> 00:24:29.920
And like, um, you know, speaking of superheroes, Anderson actually is

338
00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.359
a superhero, right, She's a
mutant who has psychic powers, and she

339
00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.319
sees her and and the I'm gonna
say superpowered individual. I'm still not there

340
00:24:37.319 --> 00:24:41.599
with a hero word because yeah,
fair fair, fair, fair totally um

341
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:48.000
and this, um, you know, superpower super supervillain like whatever. Um.

342
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:52.680
But the corrupt judge is like,
lower your weapid rookie, and she's

343
00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:55.640
like, no, you want to
kill me, I'm just gonna shoot you.

344
00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:56.680
And then she just shoots her,
you know, right, um,

345
00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:02.559
because that's how they do things.
And I don't think we're meant to be

346
00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:04.119
like, oh, this is a
good way of doing things, you know,

347
00:25:04.920 --> 00:25:11.119
whereas I think we are meant to
think Judge Dread is very good at

348
00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:18.799
doing things this way and does you
know, learn to kind of make little

349
00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:22.920
exceptions, but like really little,
you know. I mean, for me,

350
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:26.000
here's the thing. And maybe I'm
misunderstood at what happened at the very

351
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:29.599
end, but there's a thing that
he does at the end that really is

352
00:25:29.640 --> 00:25:33.799
like nope, he's he's the same
person. And early in the movie,

353
00:25:33.960 --> 00:25:38.000
what starts the reason for the judges
to go there is that the Mama Gang,

354
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:42.640
at the order of Mamma herself,
executes a couple of people and their

355
00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:45.839
deaths are very public, and that's
why the judges go to investigate. And

356
00:25:45.920 --> 00:25:51.079
he gives them alive and then drops
them off two hundred stories. Yes,

357
00:25:51.240 --> 00:25:53.119
yes, well, And the thing
is, it's not only that he pushes

358
00:25:53.119 --> 00:25:57.079
them off two hundred stories. It's
that they've invented a drug called SloMo right,

359
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:02.160
which basically makes it feel like time
is slowed down for you. Yeah,

360
00:26:02.279 --> 00:26:07.440
and they specifically like inject these people
with this drug for the sole purpose

361
00:26:07.960 --> 00:26:11.279
of torture, of having that experience
of falling to your death be drawn out

362
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.559
to like a hundred times as long. Yeah, that's not why they invented

363
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:21.240
the drug. Yeah, the drug
is meant to be a fun drug or

364
00:26:21.519 --> 00:26:23.359
but like yeah, but they give
it to them for the sole purpose of

365
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:27.720
torture these people that are going to
kill, Right, Marlo Stanfield would be

366
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:32.599
like, yes, good on you. I like this right most Stanfure is

367
00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:37.839
a very sadistic person from the From
the Wire the later seasons um at the

368
00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:42.160
end, not surprisingly, in a
very kind of like you know, you

369
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:47.160
get what you give, Dread winds
up pushing Mama over the edge, so

370
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:51.400
she falls in exactly the same way, and he injects her with the drug,

371
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:59.039
which to me is like again that
that felt to me again very much

372
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:02.319
more like the ninety nine is like, I'm going to make this person suffer

373
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:07.079
the exact way she made other people
suffer, which to me was very much

374
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:11.200
the like this is where me and
the movie, or maybe the movie is

375
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:15.200
being critical of it as well,
but is that this is no way about

376
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.559
crime prevention, This is no way
about like change. This is one about

377
00:27:18.680 --> 00:27:23.160
vengeance, about these people do bad
things and so they have to be punished,

378
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.640
and in that way, I think
if that's what the regent tend which

379
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.759
I think, I think I agree
with you that it was. It's brilliant

380
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.680
commentary, but it's such a perfect
way of showing like, yes, Dredd

381
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:37.279
is getting a little he's changing a
little bit, but he still fundamentally sees

382
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:41.720
his job is not only to like
stop these people, but to punish them.

383
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.839
And to me, that's like the
you know, I mean, there

384
00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:49.519
are libraries of papers written on how
the fundamental problem with the charical justice system

385
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:53.559
we have is that the goal is
vengeance and punishment, not reform or change

386
00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:00.160
or anything like that. Yeah.
Absolutely, I mean, you know,

387
00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:08.079
he's literally like this is the sentence, you know, and it is very

388
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:14.559
I mean harsh, is not it's
not really an appropriate word, right,

389
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:22.319
And that does feel like it's a
sort of add on, just like extra

390
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:27.960
sort of vindictive, vengeful thing to
do. I did the first time I

391
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.440
saw it kind of felt like maybe
the idea was also that like somehow that

392
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:38.839
you know, like slows down how
quickly she'll die from because I think she's

393
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:44.839
bleeding, right. I think he
shoots her first, and so that like

394
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:49.920
then she won't like her heart won't
stop before she falls to the bottom.

395
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:56.279
But I think that was just kind
of a generous reading. I don't think

396
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:59.200
that's actually in there, you know. I think it is just like,

397
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:02.440
oh, yeah, you did this
to other people. Now that you know

398
00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:06.359
that's how you die, I want
you to suffer. Yeah, And I

399
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:11.319
think that's the sort of thing that
I think is often very appealing to people

400
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:17.960
on a personal level, right in
terms of like wanting to see someone suffer

401
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:25.039
who has caused so much harm.
And I think just an extremely poisonous idea

402
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:30.079
to have associated with anything that you're
trying to call a justice system or law

403
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:34.720
enforcement or anything like that. Yeah, And I see the way you said

404
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:38.880
that is so important because like if
I'm to claim that, like I would

405
00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:44.960
never feel that there's a reason why
I've watched the video of Dave Chappelle calling

406
00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:48.480
Elon Musk up on stage and the
whole audience booing louder than you almost ever

407
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:53.519
hear a bunch of times like I
have shaudon Freud as much as anybody else's.

408
00:29:53.640 --> 00:29:56.519
I think you're saying it really well. It's that when you build a

409
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:02.079
governmental system of justice on idea of
vengeance, like instead of it just being

410
00:30:02.119 --> 00:30:06.039
like you know, this was we
go way way back into the archives.

411
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:07.480
The discussion we had in Desperado,
it was exactly the thing. Yeah,

412
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:11.640
there is something satisfying and when you're
looking to have fun fun about watching you

413
00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:17.200
know, bad people get their just
desserts. But it still can be all

414
00:30:17.319 --> 00:30:19.079
like, but when it becomes like
this is how the cops should act,

415
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:22.960
this is how the justam system should
act, we're in bad territory there.

416
00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:27.799
Yeah. Absolutely, there's a lot
of things that like I think can be

417
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.200
like, oh, well, that's
not a good thing for an individual to

418
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:36.359
do, you know, and maybe
even awful. But like then when you

419
00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:41.519
codify it and you know, put
it as part of a system and say,

420
00:30:41.559 --> 00:30:45.079
no, this isn't like not a
great thing to do, this is

421
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:51.440
the right thing to do. It's
like that now instead of like being one

422
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:57.319
act, it becomes part of a
system that will perpetuate that act into similar

423
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:03.519
acts going forward, you know,
in perpetuity, and like that's extra bad.

424
00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:10.279
Yeah, yeah, it just feeds
the cycle continues, right exactly.

425
00:31:11.000 --> 00:31:18.519
Um. One thing about like the
the setting kind of was that I did

426
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:25.759
actually feel like this was deliberately made
to look kind of like an eighties hellscape,

427
00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.680
you know, like with like like
there's the skateboarding and just the way,

428
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:36.319
just the overall vibe felt very eighties
to me a lot. And I

429
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:40.839
don't know, there's like the one
there's this like homeless dude like at the

430
00:31:41.440 --> 00:31:45.480
entrance to the building. That dread
is like, you know, oh,

431
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:49.759
this is you know, the penalty
for this is something like five years or

432
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:56.279
something insane. I think, yeah, isocubes prison sound. Isocubes sound worse

433
00:31:56.599 --> 00:32:01.799
right, exactly exactly, Although I've
actually had this thought since watching and Or

434
00:32:02.000 --> 00:32:08.119
that there is an element of the
horror of US prisons that is absent from

435
00:32:08.160 --> 00:32:13.839
that that also would be absent from
isocubes. Where I mean, I think

436
00:32:13.880 --> 00:32:17.160
a lot of the horror of the
prisons in our own world are the interactions

437
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:24.279
between inmates and how it almost feels
like there is, you know, an

438
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:30.279
attitude of everybody being against each other. It almost feels like that's fostered.

439
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.440
You know, I agree with you, But it also points out that like

440
00:32:32.519 --> 00:32:37.000
in those prisons, the thing they
do to prisoners when they want to really

441
00:32:37.000 --> 00:32:40.079
punish them is solitary confinement. Yeah, And I think at the end of

442
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:44.119
the day, part of that is
like, what are the actual conditions of

443
00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.200
that solitary confinement, how much can
you move? How much light is there?

444
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:52.839
Like you know, yeah, is
it sensory deprivation or is it like

445
00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:57.440
if you lock me in like a
dorm room with a library, like I'm

446
00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:00.400
good, you know, like if
you're in a box where he can't stand

447
00:33:00.480 --> 00:33:05.839
up straight, that's torture. We
know so little about what those iccubes are.

448
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.440
I think though, that when they
use that phrasing specifically, we're not

449
00:33:08.519 --> 00:33:12.359
meant to think this is any way
better. I agree, I agree,

450
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:15.599
I agree, Yes, this is
this is totally a tangent my bad um.

451
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:22.559
But I just love the dude's sign. It says, will debase self

452
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:27.000
for credits. Oh I didn't even
catch that. That's so yeah, which

453
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:30.640
to me, that just feels like
that that's a sign that clearly the movie

454
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:36.599
gets something and is trying to say
something right. And then when they come

455
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:39.160
back, dreads like, oh you're
still here, Okay, we're going to

456
00:33:39.240 --> 00:33:44.000
actually, you know, now get
the Patti wagon for you. And then

457
00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:47.839
then Mama closes the doors and the
door literally crushes the guy. Um,

458
00:33:50.519 --> 00:33:54.400
which I mean seems worse than an
isocube. But like it's not like anybody

459
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:59.000
was offering like, oh, come
with us. It will make sure you

460
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:00.839
get like a bed and a warm
you know, a warm meal. Yeah,

461
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:02.799
or is it a yeah, hot
meal and a warm bed, I

462
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:07.000
don't know, whatever, something better
than you know, having to sit outside

463
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:09.840
peach trees and potentially get crushed by
the blast doors. Yeah. No,

464
00:34:09.960 --> 00:34:13.719
I think it's so true, and
it's funny. I hadn't thought it until

465
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.519
you said that. But I think
that another way is part of the commentary

466
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:20.679
because like going back to when Judge
Dread was made again, I don't want

467
00:34:20.679 --> 00:34:22.960
to speak say anything about the comics
and when it was made or its context,

468
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:28.119
but one of the biggest parts of
that whole, like tough on crime,

469
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:30.599
crime is the problem, which does
continue to this day, but especially

470
00:34:30.599 --> 00:34:35.960
it was really big in the eighties
and nineties, was this belief that cities,

471
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:38.880
especially the quote unquote inner city or
the word those often used the ghetto,

472
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:44.559
both terms. I think we were
recognizing today how incredibly racially coded those

473
00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:46.960
phrases are and how racist they were. But like that was the thing,

474
00:34:46.960 --> 00:34:50.719
and like a lot of it was
about like getting suburban people and more rural

475
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:54.239
people to be utterly afraid of the
cities. Yeah, and that to me,

476
00:34:54.400 --> 00:34:58.880
like that image of the urban healthscape
is very much a part of that,

477
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:01.079
you know, and like there's all
these studies that have been done that

478
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:04.840
like on the news, like you'd
see that all the time. You'd never

479
00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:07.360
see like kids playing in a park
the way all these cities had, even

480
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:10.519
in the poorest areas, you know, all or like a playground or whatever

481
00:35:10.519 --> 00:35:14.000
it is. You wouldn't see the
good side of city life. You'd just

482
00:35:14.039 --> 00:35:16.880
see that urban hellscape. And that's
another one time. So it's like,

483
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:22.280
I don't know if they're doing that
to like feed into the still like fear

484
00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:23.960
of like urbanization that exists, or
to be a commentary on it, but

485
00:35:23.960 --> 00:35:30.679
either way, it's very much it's
effective. Yeah, I agree, Yeah,

486
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:36.440
I'll leave it. I agree.
Yeah. You and I are both

487
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:37.480
people who grew up in city,
so I think I have a very different

488
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:40.119
perspective on it. Right. Oh
yeah, I was gonna say, there's

489
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:44.599
I mean, it feels like there's
this big resurgence of that right that that

490
00:35:44.679 --> 00:35:47.320
kind of that was a huge deal
for a while, and then it felt

491
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.960
like it was less of a deal
for a while, and then now you

492
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:54.480
know, on your sort of right
wing Bengo card you have like Chicago,

493
00:35:55.119 --> 00:36:00.239
right, and like you know,
Portland, and it's like their acts like

494
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:04.239
you know, I mean, granted, there are plenty of bad things going

495
00:36:04.280 --> 00:36:07.039
on in cities, that is true, right, but there's also plenty of

496
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:10.360
community and plenty of good things going
on in cities as well. Like,

497
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:16.320
cities are just places, and there
is a difference between cities and suburbs and

498
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:22.360
rural areas. But it's not this
like it's it's not the way it is

499
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:28.679
demonstrated most of the times. You
know, I live here in Minneapolis.

500
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:31.440
I live just outside of Minneapolis,
but I go into the city quite often.

501
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:35.280
And you know, I live here. During George Floyd and when there

502
00:36:35.280 --> 00:36:38.960
were the protests and the police violence
and the counter violence and all of that,

503
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:42.880
I would talk to people who are
you know, we're very much on

504
00:36:42.920 --> 00:36:45.320
the side of BLM and stuff like
that, and they thought, just from

505
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:49.719
the stuff they've been hearing in the
media that like half the city was just

506
00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:52.800
burned down, right or that was
that that my situation. Like someone was

507
00:36:52.840 --> 00:36:54.960
asked like, yeah, are you
getting smoke the way they get like the

508
00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:00.400
California or wildfires, and like,
cause I remember you've talked talking about like

509
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:01.480
how much smoke you dealt with when
you live in California, and like,

510
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:05.400
yeah, because I was so close, we got a teeny bit. But

511
00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:09.760
this idea that half the city burned
down. There's one street, one like

512
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:15.119
main urban thoroughfare that like a couple
of miles of it. Like a lot

513
00:37:15.159 --> 00:37:17.719
of the buildings were really badly damaged
or just and like there's maybe like five

514
00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:22.039
or six buildings that were completely destroyed. It was nowhere near what was made

515
00:37:22.039 --> 00:37:27.360
out to be. Yeah, I
think part of that is because let's say

516
00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:30.360
you come from an area where you
know, the not urban, but the

517
00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:36.239
kind of downtown area of a town
is a certain size, and then you

518
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:39.480
see the amount of destruction that there
is in a given city, like and

519
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:45.199
you try and superimpose that on you
know, a town of ten twenty thousand

520
00:37:45.199 --> 00:37:49.239
people, Well, that's a much
bigger percentage, Like cities are vast,

521
00:37:49.599 --> 00:37:52.320
Right, main Street is burned down
in a small town, then yeah,

522
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:54.840
that is thirty to fifty percent of
the buildings in the town, right,

523
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:59.079
Whereas if it's one block, two
blocks, three blocks in the city,

524
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.119
it's like that's you know, I
mean, I'm not saying it's not a

525
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:04.639
bad thing. I mean, maybe
it isn't a bad thing, but that's

526
00:38:04.679 --> 00:38:07.840
that's its own whole thing. But
like I'm just saying, in terms of

527
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:10.480
scope and in terms of percentage,
and in terms of like how big of

528
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.159
an impact that has on all of
the people living there, it's like it's

529
00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:21.480
generally much smaller than than what is
perceived because they're not showing like a picture,

530
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:24.079
they're not showing footage of all the
areas that aren't that area, right,

531
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:28.239
all the areas where that's not what's
going on, Like, that's not

532
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:31.559
that's not getting equal coverage. I
want to talk about the way the movie

533
00:38:31.639 --> 00:38:35.559
is made because I think for me, there's kind of two fundamental questions about

534
00:38:35.559 --> 00:38:37.400
the movie that I have, one
of which about the way the movie is

535
00:38:37.400 --> 00:38:38.480
made. But first, let's just
kind of put a bow on this,

536
00:38:38.480 --> 00:38:40.480
because I think we're on the same
page. But I wanted to kind of

537
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:46.320
like hear you say directly, like
the movie is positing this horrific situation of

538
00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:52.000
like you know, social breakdown and
people being in danger all the time and

539
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.519
all these things happening. Am I
right in saying that? I think that

540
00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:00.840
that the movie. You come away
from the movie going you know, Dread

541
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:04.639
himself might be having some good ideas
although also all of his vengeance, but

542
00:39:04.719 --> 00:39:08.039
the judges are not helped, Like
this is not a solution that is justified

543
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:13.320
or actually is helpful in this like
horrific dystopian society. Is that is that

544
00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:19.159
where you come down? Yeah,
that's yes, And I feel like the

545
00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:23.480
movie is very loosely saying that.
Yeah, I agreed. You know,

546
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:31.679
like basically, Judge Dread is a
good guy in a bad system who buys

547
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:38.079
into the system, but the system
doesn't really do exactly what maybe the system

548
00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:43.239
should do, you know, or
like maybe it shouldn't exist at all.

549
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:46.280
But I think there's there's also some
stats early on when he talks about like

550
00:39:46.320 --> 00:39:51.760
seventeen thousand you know, serious crimes
or violent crimes are reported every day.

551
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.519
We can only respond to six percent
of those. And you know, I

552
00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:59.480
do think like when you think about
these, you know, huge problems that

553
00:39:59.559 --> 00:40:07.719
exist, there's there aren't like really
easy solutions most of the time, right,

554
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:08.800
I mean there's some things like oh, you know, like yeah,

555
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:13.960
okay, I think everybody should have
healthcare, and like I think universal basic

556
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:17.719
income would be fantastic if if you
have things structured a certain way, right,

557
00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:22.159
but like the fundamental statistic is that
the building has ninety six percent unemployment.

558
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:27.480
Like, right, judges don't fix
that, Like right, it can

559
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:30.840
exactly fix it that, Yeah,
yeah, no, law enforcement offers no

560
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:37.960
solution to the real problems of that
world. Right, And you can say,

561
00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:42.159
Okay, an individual judge can go
somewhere and try and you know,

562
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:47.639
prevent a murder or probably not prevent
a murder because they're just avenging, and

563
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:52.639
then that doesn't really lead anywhere,
you know, but like theoretically they can

564
00:40:52.679 --> 00:41:00.199
go to a place and try and
stop or no. I think at the

565
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:04.039
end of it, it just feels
useless. Yeah, And it feels to

566
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:08.239
me like it's a setting where there's
no good solutions, and certainly the judges

567
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:13.559
don't offer any solutions. But within
the context of what they're doing, dread

568
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:17.679
does a good job of doing the
thing that he's doing. But like it's

569
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:21.079
also just kind of one of those
like throw your hands up in the air

570
00:41:21.159 --> 00:41:24.800
and like you know, yeah,
I mean, like I would want to

571
00:41:24.840 --> 00:41:30.760
see Matt Murdoch show this movie to
Frank Castle, like, yeah, the

572
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:34.559
hope that like Frank by the end
of it being like okay, well maybe

573
00:41:34.599 --> 00:41:37.119
maybe that's that's too far, you
know, Yeah, yeah, but I

574
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:39.440
do. I mean, I think
Frank Castle would like the movie. I

575
00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:43.559
would not necessarily take away the same
things we're taking away, because I do

576
00:41:43.639 --> 00:41:49.679
think the movie it kind of implies
and puts those things out there, But

577
00:41:49.719 --> 00:41:52.360
it also I think makes it very
easy to just enjoy it as like a

578
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.719
shoot him up with like oh yeah, maybe I'll think about, oh yeah,

579
00:41:55.719 --> 00:42:00.519
he tossed her out the window and
time's going so slow, you know

580
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:04.840
he's right there. The second question
I think the movie asks, which is

581
00:42:05.360 --> 00:42:08.320
like, because this is this is
a question that like we've had about the

582
00:42:08.400 --> 00:42:10.920
Joker movie, we've had about Fight
Club, we've had about something else,

583
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:14.559
and I think you want to bring
up so I'm not going to mention um,

584
00:42:15.159 --> 00:42:20.079
but where like when you're the point
of your movie is to be kind

585
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:23.480
of very critical of this thing,
but in order to show the thing that

586
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:27.199
you're being critical, you show it
in a way that a lot of people

587
00:42:27.239 --> 00:42:30.800
are going to feel like, Yeah, that's awesome. Glorify that, like

588
00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:34.880
have you done your job or is
there like a problem, Like I don't

589
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:37.360
I don't think it's a movie's job
to make a point. I think like,

590
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:39.039
if you make a movie and you
make money, like and that's the

591
00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:40.840
art you want to put out in
the world or just the money making thing

592
00:42:40.840 --> 00:42:43.320
you want to put out in the
world, good for you. I'm not

593
00:42:43.679 --> 00:42:45.880
I'm not going to hold you to
a higher standard, but I think there's

594
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:49.320
an interesting question when, like you, you put out a movie that is

595
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:52.840
both very critical of something, but
if you're not really looking carefully, you're

596
00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:57.760
going to totally miss that and actually
have the opposite response. Yeah, Um,

597
00:42:58.639 --> 00:43:04.239
I mean I think when you're trying
to tell a story, your job

598
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:08.039
is to tell a story, you
know, And I mean sure in terms

599
00:43:08.039 --> 00:43:10.960
of, you know, the capitalistic
view of it, your job is to

600
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:15.159
make a money. And they didn't
make a money. I don't know,

601
00:43:15.159 --> 00:43:17.320
I don't know why I said it
that way, but like, you know,

602
00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:22.440
uh, you know, they didn't
have a high like return on investment,

603
00:43:22.559 --> 00:43:24.599
right. But I do think at
the end of the day, um,

604
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:28.840
you know, as a as a
storyteller, it's like, well,

605
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:30.880
what story are you trying to tell? And like did you tell that story?

606
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:35.639
Well? And I feel like they
told the story well, you know.

607
00:43:36.039 --> 00:43:43.199
And I think one of my least
favorite things is when a movie's like

608
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:45.039
this is the message, and it's
like, by the way, did you

609
00:43:45.119 --> 00:43:49.880
did you get the message? Can? I'm gonna have a character say the

610
00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:52.320
message, and then someone else is
gonna be like no, but that's not

611
00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:54.679
the thing, and they'll be like, yes, this is the message,

612
00:43:55.000 --> 00:44:04.559
and then like just is so overtly
having a um like an agenda. That's

613
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:08.119
that's just like it's hard to tell
a good story that way, you know.

614
00:44:08.920 --> 00:44:14.519
And there are cases where you can
do it well when you know,

615
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:19.519
if you if your story is literally
about like a political protest, like okay,

616
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.320
now, it's pretty reasonable for you
to have characters talking about whatever the

617
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:27.920
thing is they're protesting, right and
raising different points and whatever. Um.

618
00:44:27.960 --> 00:44:30.920
But there's there's a lot of circumstances
where it's like, well, that's that's

619
00:44:30.920 --> 00:44:34.639
probably not going to make a great
action movie, you know. UM.

620
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:37.880
And I think when it comes to
like action movies and stories that are you

621
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:43.400
know, action stories or adventure stories, I feel like, really the best

622
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.320
you can do is is put things
out there for people to pick up on,

623
00:44:46.760 --> 00:44:51.400
and then they kind of either do
or they don't, um, you

624
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:52.320
know. But at the same time, like, yeah, I mean,

625
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:59.960
if your main goal is to like
make one particular point, and you may

626
00:45:00.039 --> 00:45:05.559
a story or some other piece of
art that like can easily be interpreted as

627
00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:09.559
the opposite, and then like people
are gonna take away the opposite, Like

628
00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:14.559
I would say, you haven't succeeded
in that goal. You know, you've

629
00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:19.519
you've muddied the waters, and maybe
you've exceeded its succeeded in the opposite goal.

630
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:22.159
You know. I think that's a
really good way to put it.

631
00:45:22.199 --> 00:45:24.840
And I think a lot of it
comes down to, like I think I

632
00:45:24.880 --> 00:45:29.760
look at this a little more harshly
when or leave a little more critically when

633
00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:32.159
it feels like part of your goal
is to be critical of other kinds of

634
00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:37.239
media. M Yeah, you know, and like I think in some ways

635
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:42.079
this movie is fairly critical of the
lethal weapons and even the original movie,

636
00:45:42.119 --> 00:45:46.079
and like there's that whole genre of
like raw rack cops go do the terrible

637
00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:50.519
things to the people of color and
the poor people because like that's our societal

638
00:45:50.559 --> 00:45:52.840
vengeance against them. And and yeah, so I think, like, like

639
00:45:52.920 --> 00:45:58.599
we talked about that during Desperado that
it felt like fitting but also a little

640
00:45:58.599 --> 00:46:00.840
bit like kind of trying to have
it both ways. That you've got this

641
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:05.719
movie about antanniae omanderies. Here he's
doing it more in like funny than like

642
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:08.199
gruesome ways. But still it's like, Yep, that bad guy died.

643
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.199
That bad guy ed. He deserved
to die. He deserves to die.

644
00:46:10.199 --> 00:46:13.920
Oh but by the way, all
of them have like a father or a

645
00:46:14.000 --> 00:46:17.039
mother or a son or something like
that. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

646
00:46:16.840 --> 00:46:20.960
Like but it weird because yeah,
I don't think this movie would have been

647
00:46:20.960 --> 00:46:23.639
as good if it had had that
kind of a point, you know,

648
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:27.360
like if you'd had the rookie at
the end, you know, there's a

649
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:31.639
great moment where she has to perform
what we were just talking about, where

650
00:46:31.639 --> 00:46:37.119
she has to literally murder the person
who is begging for his life, the

651
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:39.400
who turns out as the partner of
the woman they stay with, and she

652
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:44.480
hesitates at first, and when she
performs the sentence, when she executes him

653
00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:49.239
under Dread's orders because that's what her
job is, you can see that it

654
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:52.320
affects her. Yeah, And by
the end of the movie she still wants

655
00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:53.639
to be a judge, and I
feel like you could have had her be

656
00:46:53.760 --> 00:46:58.840
like, oh, I think that, like this is a waste. You

657
00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:01.440
know, her make the she could
have made the point of the movie and

658
00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:06.880
said we're not helping. I can't
do this. I quit. And on

659
00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.079
the one hand, I think that
would have made that would have better made

660
00:47:09.079 --> 00:47:14.360
the point, but it also it
wouldn't have felt real. Um. Yeah,

661
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:15.920
And so I'm torn because I feel
that. But then I also do

662
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:21.880
think like the movie went pretty far
into you know, into like gltifying and

663
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:25.239
making it really easy for someone to
totally miss the point. Yeah. Absolutely,

664
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:31.800
Um. I mean there are I
think three other instances where they let

665
00:47:31.920 --> 00:47:36.920
someone else go, or maybe maybe
it's two, because there's the one.

666
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:39.800
There's there's the guy who's um,
I think it's Bill Weasley, right,

667
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:46.280
No, um, who is like
he's like the tech guy who's it turns

668
00:47:46.320 --> 00:47:51.800
out, is basically working under a
threat of death, you know, in

669
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:54.679
torture. Um. And I think
they took his eyes out and put in

670
00:47:54.760 --> 00:48:00.880
some kind of like um cybernetic replacements
or something, and um, you know,

671
00:48:00.920 --> 00:48:02.920
and she she lets him go,
and she's like he was a you

672
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:07.519
know, he's a victim, not
a villain, or however she says it.

673
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:13.039
But then also dread like he has
some kind of like stunned thing for

674
00:48:13.079 --> 00:48:15.880
these two like teenagers, right,
It's like, oh, he's he's not

675
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:21.639
going to kill the teenagers, okay, And and so it does seem like

676
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:27.360
there's I mean, for her,
there's there's Actually she has the character arc

677
00:48:27.840 --> 00:48:34.119
right where um, it seems like
she wants to do this because they stuck

678
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:36.920
her in the academy when she was
nine. You know, it's like it's

679
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:42.440
what she knows, but she also
maybe thinks she can do better, right,

680
00:48:42.519 --> 00:48:47.360
and like the idea of doing something
totally separate outside the system maybe doesn't

681
00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:51.639
really occur to her, maybe because
you know, there's just not a lot

682
00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:54.840
of opportunity for that, um,
but she is willing to kind of first

683
00:48:54.920 --> 00:48:58.079
she makes the call like, yeah, okay, I'll shoot this guy in

684
00:48:58.079 --> 00:49:00.880
the face because I guess it's what
I'm supposed to do, and Dread tell

685
00:49:00.000 --> 00:49:02.559
me to do that. And then
she's like, I'm not going to shoot

686
00:49:02.599 --> 00:49:07.280
this guy in the face because,
you know, because I've read his mind

687
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:13.119
and I know this that and the
other, and so it just you know,

688
00:49:13.199 --> 00:49:16.559
at the end, she does want
to be a judge, and she's

689
00:49:16.639 --> 00:49:22.639
like learned a lot about what it
means, right, which isn't great things,

690
00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:27.519
but like you know, maybe It's
the sort of thing where it's like,

691
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:30.440
well, if somebody else is going
to do it anyway, maybe I

692
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:36.440
can do it not as bad,
you know, yea, And yeah,

693
00:49:36.599 --> 00:49:40.960
I don't know. There's just the
one line I just wanted to quote where

694
00:49:42.400 --> 00:49:45.519
you know, he's like are you
ready and she's like yeah, and he's

695
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:49.400
like you don't look ready, and
then later he's like you look ready something,

696
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:52.000
and it's like she's changed, right, Like that experience of this whole

697
00:49:52.039 --> 00:49:59.639
thing has been a character you know, moment for her, Like she she

698
00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:02.400
has developed as a person, And
in some ways that's kind of the tragedy

699
00:50:02.400 --> 00:50:06.280
of the movie, because I don't
think that's good. Guys think her being

700
00:50:06.320 --> 00:50:09.199
horrified at the idea of shooting this
unarmed person like good, you know,

701
00:50:09.800 --> 00:50:14.599
all right? And the teena the
thing with a stunt weapon also really struck

702
00:50:14.639 --> 00:50:15.679
me because like, there's a part
of me it's like, why aren't you

703
00:50:15.719 --> 00:50:22.599
stunning everybody? Right, and her
line about you know what, this guy's

704
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:23.880
a victim. On the one hand, part of what am id to me,

705
00:50:23.960 --> 00:50:27.880
I was like, yeah, this
is why, actually cops giving some

706
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:30.840
thought to the context of people before
they start shooting is a good idea,

707
00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:35.239
Let's have more of that, please, we don't have psychics in our own

708
00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:37.920
world. But you know my point. But it also struck me very innocent

709
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:43.199
because, with the exception of Mama
and maybe not even her, as you

710
00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:46.679
said, all the people they kill
are victims. All the people they kill,

711
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:51.960
like you said, ninety six percent
unemployment, like, and there are

712
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:54.199
times where Mama says, like,
if if I don't, if I find

713
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:58.199
out that you weren't helping to kill
these judges, I'm going to kill you.

714
00:50:58.719 --> 00:51:01.039
Yeah. All the people who the
judges are going after and are going

715
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:07.840
after the judges are victims too.
And I'm not mad at the movie for

716
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:10.760
it. I think it's actually a
really good point. It felt the way

717
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:14.920
that like, we only care about
someone when we know their motives, but

718
00:51:14.960 --> 00:51:17.079
then we assume that like everyone else
doesn't have good motives because we don't know

719
00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:22.239
what their motives are. That to
me felt very real and like, again,

720
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:24.920
I don't even know that commentary was
intentional, but it definitely came through.

721
00:51:25.559 --> 00:51:28.880
Yeah, I think it definitely was. I mean, I think there

722
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:31.800
was definitely supposed to be a you
know, a subtext of everybody has their

723
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:38.559
own story, right, Yeah,
And everybody's affected by all of the circumstances

724
00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:44.400
around them, and nobody thinks they're
the villain, right or they at least

725
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:47.239
you know, I mean I saw
what Harris was basically saying, like yeah,

726
00:51:47.239 --> 00:51:51.559
when I was playing this character,
like, you know, he doesn't

727
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:54.039
think he's a villain, or at
least he doesn't think he's worse than the

728
00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:58.760
judges, you know, and it's
like, maybe he's not worse than the

729
00:51:58.800 --> 00:52:02.000
judges. I mean he does literally
skin some people alive and toss them off

730
00:52:02.039 --> 00:52:07.320
of a railing, which, like
I don't know, like I kind of

731
00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:10.480
feel like that's worse than at least
anything except for you know, giving Mama

732
00:52:10.559 --> 00:52:14.320
the slow motion thing and then tossing
her off you know. Well, and

733
00:52:14.559 --> 00:52:17.639
what Harris is the Avon box Dill
actor, right, yeah, yeah,

734
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:22.039
yeah, I do think they had
him do something worse. And frankly,

735
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:24.039
it wasn't the only parts of the
movie that I'll like because it felt kind

736
00:52:24.079 --> 00:52:30.360
of exploitative, which is that um
basically, because he figures out that the

737
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:37.440
rookie reminding her name Anderson, because
he figures out that Anderson, the rookie

738
00:52:37.480 --> 00:52:39.760
who as who said it, is
an attractive young woman can read his mind.

739
00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:46.760
He starts thinking these very violent thoughts
about sexually assaulting her in an attempt

740
00:52:46.760 --> 00:52:52.840
to shock her and or a throne
level by any means. But like definitely,

741
00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:55.239
like we see like a second or
two of it happening, and it

742
00:52:55.400 --> 00:53:00.719
just like I do think that that
makes him that that was supposed to be

743
00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:01.800
made and be like, no,
he's one of the real bad ones.

744
00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:05.519
But also it was like, really
did you have to do that? Like

745
00:53:07.800 --> 00:53:09.039
yeah, I mean I don't think
that scenes in there, and I wouldn't

746
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:15.440
I wouldn't have missed it, right
right, I mean I feel like that

747
00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:20.199
that was one of two times when
it felt to me like I thought they

748
00:53:20.199 --> 00:53:22.400
were going to go a certain way
and then they they pivoted, you know

749
00:53:22.679 --> 00:53:30.000
where where they basically have her be
like, oh, well that's so that's

750
00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:31.079
what you want to put in my
mind. Now I'll put this in your

751
00:53:31.079 --> 00:53:37.519
mind, you know, and pretty
much you know, kind of like outplays

752
00:53:37.599 --> 00:53:40.920
him there, you know. I
mean, yeah, it's I don't know,

753
00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:46.400
I I feel you you know,
yeah, I don't feel exactly the

754
00:53:46.480 --> 00:53:51.760
same. I feel like it could
have gone in a direction where I would

755
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.639
be have the same same feeling about
it. That you do. But I

756
00:53:54.760 --> 00:54:00.599
felt like, um, it kind
of pivoted away from that or into it,

757
00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:04.719
went there and then went somewhere else
that I felt like justified that.

758
00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:09.679
Um. Then and then further um
in terms of like you know her character.

759
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:14.480
Um, he then does get the
jump on her. I don't think

760
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:17.519
through that. I think it's like
some other people are like distract them or

761
00:54:17.559 --> 00:54:21.440
whatever. Um. It didn't really
make sense to me why he got the

762
00:54:21.519 --> 00:54:24.400
jump on the psychic but yeah,
go on, right, Well, no,

763
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:28.719
it's so it's I mean, I
think her power has to be used

764
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:32.079
deliberately at a person. I think
it's targeted. I don't think she's like

765
00:54:32.679 --> 00:54:37.079
pre I don't think she has precognition. She can read people's minds, you

766
00:54:37.119 --> 00:54:40.719
know. Um, so she's a
telepath right and um, and when there's

767
00:54:40.800 --> 00:54:45.159
other I think there's other people firing
at them, and then he gets her

768
00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:51.039
weapon away from her. Now I
I do it is a little bit like,

769
00:54:51.079 --> 00:54:53.519
well, why does she go with
them at gunpoint when if she knows

770
00:54:53.920 --> 00:54:59.079
the thing about her gun? Right? Um. But like anyway, my

771
00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.519
point being that, yes, I
agree that that kind of her getting kidnapped

772
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:06.320
or whatever was a little bit like
wait, how does this really make sense?

773
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:09.400
Um? And and just felt like
they kind of wanted it to go

774
00:55:09.480 --> 00:55:13.880
that way, and then it feels
like Dread is coming to rescue her,

775
00:55:14.159 --> 00:55:16.800
right yeah, and then it turns
you know, but then they turned it

776
00:55:16.840 --> 00:55:24.719
around and actually she ends up saving
Dread, which where where um Dread basically

777
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:30.679
you know, loses a fight to
to Lex, the head corrupt judge because

778
00:55:30.679 --> 00:55:35.400
he's out of AMMO because he's been
fighting all day um, and he's like

779
00:55:35.440 --> 00:55:38.360
wait and Lex is like me,
wait, He's like wait for what?

780
00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:43.159
Wait for so you can enjoy your
last few dying moments. And then she

781
00:55:43.199 --> 00:55:45.840
comes out and shoots him and he's
like, wait for her to shoot you?

782
00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:50.559
Yeah, And I just I thought
that that was a nice kind of

783
00:55:51.039 --> 00:55:55.039
subversion of the trope of like her
getting damns old or whatever. And and

784
00:55:55.079 --> 00:55:59.159
then I also enjoyed that it's like, you know, it's a movie with

785
00:55:59.719 --> 00:56:02.000
you know, a male lead and
a female lead, and it's it's not

786
00:56:02.159 --> 00:56:07.280
romantic. There's not like anything yeah
at all, you know, and it's

787
00:56:07.320 --> 00:56:09.559
just like this is training day and
it's like one of them happens to be

788
00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:13.239
Mail and the other happens to be
female and it's just you know, it's

789
00:56:13.280 --> 00:56:17.000
training day and without so I appreciating
super corrupt, but yes, I agree

790
00:56:17.039 --> 00:56:22.320
you're saying, right, yeah,
yeah, yeah, except he's dread and

791
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:24.519
not Lex, and you know then
it would be training day if if she

792
00:56:24.719 --> 00:56:29.639
was Lex's apprentice, right, But
yeah, just in that terms of like

793
00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:32.159
that's the relationship, right, it's
the you know, the cop and then

794
00:56:32.199 --> 00:56:37.199
the rookie cop on you know,
the first day out basically, well,

795
00:56:37.199 --> 00:56:38.840
and just pulling it back to the
question that we were wit. We were

796
00:56:39.880 --> 00:56:43.320
just pulling it back to the question
that asked a little while ago. Also

797
00:56:43.400 --> 00:56:45.679
in terms of like what the movie
is doing. And I thought, this

798
00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:47.760
is what you're gonna bring up because
I think you mentioned a couple of times

799
00:56:47.760 --> 00:56:52.199
maybe i'd misundersture you. One of
the things that makes what for me the

800
00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:54.760
thing I will always think about in
terms of this, like what happens when

801
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:59.239
you are critiquing something but also doing
the thing you're critiquing as part of that

802
00:56:59.559 --> 00:57:04.119
is Hunger Games. Yeah, where
you know the books are I don't think

803
00:57:04.119 --> 00:57:05.880
it hits you over the head too
much, at least in the books,

804
00:57:05.880 --> 00:57:07.320
maybe a little bit more in the
movie. But it's meant to be a

805
00:57:07.360 --> 00:57:14.119
critique of the kind of glorification of
like watching like young people like fight with

806
00:57:14.119 --> 00:57:19.320
each other and things like that and
kind of our and a lot of things

807
00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:22.719
like that. And so when they
made and in the books there's not the

808
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.760
fight scenes are very briefly described,
because the whole point is like, we're

809
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:30.320
not supposed to be like enjoying the
fight scenes. And the director of the

810
00:57:30.360 --> 00:57:34.679
movie, at least the first movie
had that as a very particular aim in

811
00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:37.639
mind of and he said in a
quote I mentioned this a bunch of times

812
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:40.079
before, but like, I don't
want kids to walk out of the movie

813
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:46.840
and want to reenact the fight scenes. And I don't think Hunger Games do

814
00:57:46.920 --> 00:57:50.280
that perfectly by any means, especially
in the later movie, but to me,

815
00:57:50.320 --> 00:57:52.440
it did kind of set a standard. And so that that is what

816
00:57:52.480 --> 00:57:53.679
I always think about when I think
about movies like this, and I think,

817
00:57:54.159 --> 00:57:58.599
yeah, I don't I think they're
definitely like I've seen some movies that

818
00:57:58.599 --> 00:58:02.119
are like in theory about like you
know, sexual exploitation, and all the

819
00:58:02.159 --> 00:58:07.039
scenes take place in strip clubs with
a lot of focus on like people writhing

820
00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:09.000
in very little clothing as a way
of being like, look, sexual explutation

821
00:58:09.079 --> 00:58:13.440
is bad and you're definitely not paying
the money to like watch the sexual expectation

822
00:58:13.480 --> 00:58:16.480
on screen. Not that sex work
is, but there's a whole other conversation

823
00:58:16.480 --> 00:58:20.840
there, understand where I'm coming from. Yeah, and I don't think this

824
00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:23.840
movie is that bad by any means, but I do think that, like

825
00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:30.199
I think the way you described it
as perfect, Like it has a message,

826
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:32.920
and the message it is interesting,
but it's not No one sat down

827
00:58:32.960 --> 00:58:36.760
and said, I need you to
give me this money because I need to

828
00:58:36.800 --> 00:58:38.360
tell this message. I need the
world to be better. They thought,

829
00:58:38.519 --> 00:58:43.039
let's make a fun movie based off
of a really interesting story, and yeah,

830
00:58:43.039 --> 00:58:45.840
we're gonna have some commentary in there. And if people miss the commentary,

831
00:58:45.880 --> 00:58:50.719
that's fine because it's still a good
it's a good story, yeah,

832
00:58:50.800 --> 00:58:53.880
give or take. You know,
I do think that the Hunger Games,

833
00:58:53.960 --> 00:58:59.280
like I respect that that's like what
they were trying to do. You know,

834
00:59:00.519 --> 00:59:05.280
it's still to me, it doesn't
really feel different to me, Like,

835
00:59:05.719 --> 00:59:09.159
I don't know it. I didn't
feel that they really did what they

836
00:59:09.159 --> 00:59:14.400
set out to do necessarily, you
know, like it still felt like it

837
00:59:14.480 --> 00:59:16.320
was. Yeah, it's supposed to
be a critique of this thing, but

838
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:21.280
it's like it is also still the
thing, you know, right, And

839
00:59:21.320 --> 00:59:24.639
I feel like, I'm not sure
how much dread is a critique of action

840
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:30.800
movies as much as of you know, sort of policing and particularly like US

841
00:59:30.840 --> 00:59:37.679
policing, but it definitely it does
feel like it's you know, setting out

842
00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:42.079
to kind of say one thing while
also doing the other. That's kind of

843
00:59:42.119 --> 00:59:45.480
like really at cross purposes to that, you know, like I wouldn't be

844
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:52.079
shocked if I heard from someone oh
yeah, you know, I you know,

845
00:59:52.199 --> 00:59:55.719
I had kind of thought about being
a cop, but when I saw

846
00:59:55.840 --> 00:59:59.840
Dread, like it made me more
want to do that, you know.

847
01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:02.519
Um, but I could also see
someone having kind of the opposite response.

848
01:00:04.079 --> 01:00:07.440
And yeah, I mean a lot
of cops clearly misunderstanding it. But a

849
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:09.679
lot of cops have like punisher symbols
on their on their you know, tattoos

850
01:00:09.760 --> 01:00:13.199
or whatever. You're not getting at
with dread. I think dred is more

851
01:00:13.199 --> 01:00:16.480
extreme. That's and that's good.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, And I

852
01:00:16.519 --> 01:00:22.960
will say that like, um,
uh, you know, there's the the

853
01:00:22.239 --> 01:00:27.800
iconic line, and I thought it
was delivered very well in this where it

854
01:00:27.920 --> 01:00:31.960
was like, you know, dread
is addressing everyone in the building through some

855
01:00:32.199 --> 01:00:38.039
you know, little really ancient looking
technology terminal. Yeah, like you know

856
01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:42.719
the way Star Wars is like nineteen
seventies tech, This is like nineteen eighties

857
01:00:42.760 --> 01:00:45.159
tech. And even though it's in
like two thy eighties the setting, right.

858
01:00:45.519 --> 01:00:50.039
Um, but he's like, Mama
is not the law. I am

859
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:53.840
the law. And and that's like, you know, his big thing that

860
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:59.199
he says, you know. Um. And I used to play a character

861
01:00:59.239 --> 01:01:01.719
in a role playing game who was
like the Sheriff of New York or whatever.

862
01:01:01.960 --> 01:01:08.039
It was a vampire and like he
was really into like the Anthrox song

863
01:01:08.599 --> 01:01:12.199
I Am the Law, you know, which is this judge dread thing.

864
01:01:13.199 --> 01:01:16.400
But the funny thing is that the
character was originally like, as a kid,

865
01:01:16.639 --> 01:01:22.800
was an anarchist in the Spanish Civil
War and and then kind of like

866
01:01:22.920 --> 01:01:28.480
became the fascist, you know.
And I think that I don't know that

867
01:01:28.599 --> 01:01:31.760
kind of cycle, Like I feel
like that's a thing, you know,

868
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:37.440
Yeah, like people people fight against
the thing they're fighting against until they're the

869
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:39.840
thing that they were, until they
are the thing that they were fighting against.

870
01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:43.400
I mean, I think, like
I don't want to go back over

871
01:01:43.480 --> 01:01:45.119
Randor, but I think and Or
has a couple of versions of that story

872
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:51.079
in various ways. Also, you
put your finger on something I hadn't quite

873
01:01:51.079 --> 01:01:53.280
figured out, but I think really
kind of squares the circle that we're talking

874
01:01:53.280 --> 01:01:57.599
about. And then I think you're
right, it's that the movie is being

875
01:01:57.639 --> 01:02:01.440
critical of policing at least to make
some commentary and raise some questions about policing

876
01:02:01.480 --> 01:02:07.400
and the militarization of policing. And
I think a lot of other people have

877
01:02:07.440 --> 01:02:14.199
a critique of the role that the
Raw Rock Cops kill all the criminals movies

878
01:02:14.760 --> 01:02:16.840
of the eighties and nineties and then
going forward to day, but especially that

879
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:22.199
period had in contributing towards the cops
are always good, criminals are always bad

880
01:02:22.280 --> 01:02:25.360
idea. And so I'm kind of
bringing that further now. And you're right

881
01:02:25.440 --> 01:02:29.519
that that part of it. This
movie isn't engaging with. This movie is

882
01:02:29.559 --> 01:02:34.199
not trying to say that that I'm
in a genre of movies that have contributed

883
01:02:34.239 --> 01:02:37.719
to this thing that I'm criptiquing.
They're just critiquing the thing. Yeah,

884
01:02:37.800 --> 01:02:42.119
yeah, exactly. And I'll also
say, like, the movie is only

885
01:02:42.199 --> 01:02:45.920
ninety five minutes long, right,
you do that much, right, And

886
01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:47.440
I think it's a good choice you
know, I think, like, not

887
01:02:47.480 --> 01:02:52.639
every story has to do everything,
you know, I think I think you

888
01:02:52.679 --> 01:02:57.000
can try in especially in terms of
telling a coherent story. I think very

889
01:02:57.000 --> 01:03:00.039
often shorter is better, and I
think often when you want to make a

890
01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:06.559
point, I think not be laboring
it is better. As much as I

891
01:03:06.599 --> 01:03:10.079
fail to not be labor points when
I am just talking free form, We're

892
01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:13.280
gonna try very hard to keep that. I think this podcasting to come in

893
01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:16.280
under ninety five minutes, but it
might be close, but certainly so,

894
01:03:16.760 --> 01:03:19.800
I definitely agree, And yeah,
we are about to wrap up. I

895
01:03:19.920 --> 01:03:22.280
just got one more big point we
want to get into. But yeah,

896
01:03:22.280 --> 01:03:23.360
I agree. I think it's good
that it's short, and like I said,

897
01:03:23.360 --> 01:03:25.360
I think it's good that it is
a day in the life movie.

898
01:03:25.400 --> 01:03:30.039
Like I don't get the sense that
like this this is obviously I think like

899
01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:32.000
if if if you ask Dread,
like what are his ten worst experiences?

900
01:03:32.039 --> 01:03:36.239
This is probably in the ten.
But this isn't the thing that makes him

901
01:03:36.280 --> 01:03:38.119
quit the force or anything like that. This is just it's just one more

902
01:03:38.199 --> 01:03:43.159
day for him. Yeah, yeah, exactly, actually getting go ahead,

903
01:03:43.719 --> 01:03:46.159
No, I'm just agreeing. Yeah, so I actually want to get into

904
01:03:46.239 --> 01:03:49.559
Dread a little bit as our last
point. We'll do that right after this.

905
01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:52.880
Welcome mac um So, Paul,
here's my last question. I get

906
01:03:52.880 --> 01:03:57.119
we're just trying to get into it. Why do you think Dread does this

907
01:03:57.280 --> 01:04:00.559
every day? Like he's one of
the first peace He starts out with a

908
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:03.440
little bit this hopeful statement about,
you know, bringing order out of chaos,

909
01:04:04.119 --> 01:04:08.320
but very early on in his training
of Anderson, you can see that

910
01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:11.239
he's very cynical and jaded. He
doesn't think this is going to do much

911
01:04:11.280 --> 01:04:14.199
good. He's just trying to live
through the day. Why do you think

912
01:04:14.239 --> 01:04:17.480
he does this? It's a good
question. I think it's because it's what

913
01:04:17.599 --> 01:04:21.960
he knows, you know, it's
what he's trained to do, it's what

914
01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:27.519
he's good at doing, and kind
of like what else is he going to

915
01:04:27.599 --> 01:04:30.480
do? I think is like basically
just his motivation, you know, It's

916
01:04:30.519 --> 01:04:38.840
like it's who he is and that's
why he does what he does. Yeah,

917
01:04:39.119 --> 01:04:41.039
I think that's a really good point, and in some ways I think

918
01:04:41.079 --> 01:04:44.440
that's almost some of the most steering
commentary of all of it, is that

919
01:04:44.679 --> 01:04:46.519
one of the and I think again
this is what the Wire also really does

920
01:04:46.559 --> 01:04:49.880
well, is that the problem with
these systems is that when you're in the

921
01:04:49.960 --> 01:04:54.599
system, like you just do what
you do. You don't think of yourself

922
01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:59.239
as like like you are this fundamental
force for justice or foreign injustice. You're

923
01:04:59.239 --> 01:05:00.639
just you're just trying do your own
little thing in its own little place,

924
01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:03.440
and you don't think about it much. Be on that, yeah, because

925
01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:06.320
like if I went through this,
I'd be like, hell, no,

926
01:05:06.480 --> 01:05:10.800
give me a better job, Like
I'm not doing this right, But like,

927
01:05:11.360 --> 01:05:15.360
looking at this setting, I'm sorry, what is that better job?

928
01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:18.800
Yeah? You know what I mean, Like that's and that's the thing.

929
01:05:18.960 --> 01:05:25.960
And that's like why does k the
what Harris character do what he does well?

930
01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:29.159
Because he lives where he lives,
and like what are his other options?

931
01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:31.719
You know? And I'm not saying
either of them are doing the best

932
01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:38.039
thing they could do, but like
sometimes just when you're in a situation,

933
01:05:38.639 --> 01:05:42.199
you're in a particular setting, and
it's like it's like this is you know,

934
01:05:42.639 --> 01:05:46.760
this is the thing, and there
just aren't obvious better options, you

935
01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:49.119
know, even if it's like yeah, well actually, if you can get

936
01:05:49.159 --> 01:05:51.840
that good at a thing, maybe
you could get that good at another thing,

937
01:05:51.960 --> 01:05:56.159
or maybe you could use those skills
to do something different. I don't

938
01:05:56.159 --> 01:06:00.239
know, And I think there are
some you know, within the Judge dread

939
01:06:00.280 --> 01:06:05.880
comics. I think there is this
I think like maybe he's got this complicated

940
01:06:05.880 --> 01:06:12.519
backstory and you know, these family
things and like there are big things about

941
01:06:12.559 --> 01:06:16.679
like what happens with the whole system, and I think there's a lot going

942
01:06:16.719 --> 01:06:21.480
on there overall. And I think
this movie was basically just like, I

943
01:06:23.719 --> 01:06:28.679
think it had the self awareness that
it wasn't going to be able to introduce

944
01:06:29.119 --> 01:06:33.360
the setting and tell a story about
a big thing happening within the setting,

945
01:06:33.760 --> 01:06:38.760
and instead chose to say, Okay, we're going to tell a small story

946
01:06:39.679 --> 01:06:45.119
in this setting while introducing you to
the setting basically right, and even there

947
01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:48.000
it leaves out what is presumably a
big part of the setting, but maybe

948
01:06:48.000 --> 01:06:53.159
it's not in that. Almost always
when you have a dystopian movie like this,

949
01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:55.960
you do get to see the one
percent, you know, you do

950
01:06:56.000 --> 01:07:00.400
get to people who are profiting from
all these people living in misery and who

951
01:07:00.599 --> 01:07:04.679
on some level the judges are helping
to keep safe the people in Elysium,

952
01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:10.039
you know, take them at David
movie. So we don't get a word

953
01:07:10.039 --> 01:07:13.320
of that. There's not like it
might be that this is how everybody lives,

954
01:07:13.679 --> 01:07:17.320
right, and it's just yeah,
it's I again appreciate that because it's

955
01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:20.960
not like part of me would kind
of love like a dread TV show,

956
01:07:21.000 --> 01:07:23.840
but part of me doesn't. I
just like that, like, no,

957
01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:27.159
we don't know everything else. We'd
just see this one little picture of it.

958
01:07:27.840 --> 01:07:30.679
Yeah, And like I think if
you wanted to do a TV show,

959
01:07:30.920 --> 01:07:34.199
you could tell the bigger story,
right, you could. You could

960
01:07:34.199 --> 01:07:39.519
do the wire basically right, and
you could introduce you could have introduced all

961
01:07:39.519 --> 01:07:45.079
those other gangs that Mama overthrew,
right, and you could you could have

962
01:07:45.199 --> 01:07:49.360
some information about how you know,
the world got irradiated, and like like

963
01:07:50.519 --> 01:07:55.760
are there people living comfortable lives somewhere? Right? But like, if you're

964
01:07:55.760 --> 01:07:58.400
doing a ninety five minute movie,
or even if you're doing a two hour

965
01:07:58.519 --> 01:08:01.800
movie, like an extra twenty five
minutes isn't going to get you from like

966
01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:06.440
point A of like a day in
the life to point Z, which is

967
01:08:06.480 --> 01:08:13.679
like a big deal story. Yeah, definitely definitely all right, Well,

968
01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:18.600
Paul, any of the last comments
you want to make, Yes, this

969
01:08:18.720 --> 01:08:23.600
is like a huge topic that I
don't necessarily want to actually delve deep into

970
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:30.000
but I think the concept of mind
reading in a law enforcement context it's interesting.

971
01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:36.000
I don't know. I feel like
the movie didn't really dig on that,

972
01:08:36.239 --> 01:08:40.199
but it just kind of treated it
kind of de facto. But it's

973
01:08:40.239 --> 01:08:44.079
like, huh, yeah, that's
that seems like kind of a big deal.

974
01:08:44.720 --> 01:08:47.039
It is it really is. Have
you seen Minority Report? I have?

975
01:08:47.359 --> 01:08:51.079
Yes. Yeah. I don't think
that movie did a good job dealing

976
01:08:51.119 --> 01:08:57.479
with it, but at least it
raised some interesting questions about it, especially

977
01:08:57.479 --> 01:09:00.199
because to me, I think in
the movie we see mind reading by the

978
01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:05.319
cops used in two fundamentally different ways, and I think there's a huge ethical

979
01:09:05.359 --> 01:09:08.319
difference between the two of them.
And you're right that this would be its

980
01:09:08.359 --> 01:09:12.119
own episode, but definitely worth exploring
and maybe do something like that, Professor

981
01:09:12.279 --> 01:09:14.079
X again about it, because that's
where a lot of it comes from.

982
01:09:14.359 --> 01:09:18.319
Sure, but one of it is
you have had bad thoughts, you have

983
01:09:18.520 --> 01:09:23.399
thought about doing a bad thing,
and now I'm going to take action as

984
01:09:23.399 --> 01:09:25.960
though you have done the bad thing, or maybe like you're taking thoughts about

985
01:09:25.960 --> 01:09:28.520
planning to do the thing. Yeah, obviously there's a lot of gray area

986
01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:31.119
there thing, but basically, like
I'm going to punish you because of your

987
01:09:31.159 --> 01:09:36.760
thoughts, the second one being your
thoughts have told me that your actions are

988
01:09:36.840 --> 01:09:40.199
not what I thought they were,
that they're not as bad as I thought

989
01:09:40.199 --> 01:09:43.479
they were, and therefore I'm going
to let you off of punishment as happens

990
01:09:43.520 --> 01:09:46.560
to the tech guy. And I
like that they show both, but you're

991
01:09:46.640 --> 01:09:49.720
right, there's a big ethical question. There's a lot of ethical questions because

992
01:09:49.720 --> 01:09:56.800
I think those two are so fundamentally
different. Yeah. Absolutely, And like

993
01:09:57.600 --> 01:10:00.119
the idea like can a thought be
a crime, or like can a thought

994
01:10:00.159 --> 01:10:04.079
reveal that you did some crime or
that you did some crime under duress or

995
01:10:04.119 --> 01:10:09.960
whatever? I will say, Minority
Report feels to me like a fantastic example

996
01:10:10.439 --> 01:10:15.199
of a movie that is trying to
introduce a setting and be an action film

997
01:10:15.279 --> 01:10:19.560
and have a really big deal thing
within that setting go down, and I

998
01:10:19.600 --> 01:10:26.560
think fails on that account basically.
Yeah. I mentioned Elysium before, and

999
01:10:26.600 --> 01:10:29.520
to me, both of those are
movies that really are talking movies, Like

1000
01:10:30.039 --> 01:10:32.319
I don't care about big, flashy
action scenes, and I think they get

1001
01:10:32.359 --> 01:10:34.760
away from what those movies should be, and yet they both feel like they

1002
01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:39.239
need to have them. Yeah,
and that's that's always I think the thing

1003
01:10:39.319 --> 01:10:41.840
like if you say I want to
make an action movie, if you just

1004
01:10:41.880 --> 01:10:46.199
start with that premise and then you
say I want to make this big commentary

1005
01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:50.520
or statement about such and such,
I think you're already trying to do too

1006
01:10:50.600 --> 01:10:55.640
much. And I think you basically
need to say I want to do this

1007
01:10:55.720 --> 01:10:59.800
big action movie and I want to
make this small commentary about such and such.

1008
01:11:00.079 --> 01:11:01.600
I think you're good. And if
you say I want to make a

1009
01:11:01.600 --> 01:11:08.560
big commentary about something and then have
bursts of action, then I think you

1010
01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:13.640
can do and Or, you know, which even I feel like actually does

1011
01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:18.560
a really good job of not overtly
commenting on things as much as showing things

1012
01:11:18.800 --> 01:11:24.920
right in certain ways. But well, well, also like and Or has

1013
01:11:25.000 --> 01:11:27.960
significantly left Like, I mean,
were you watching bad Batch recently, and

1014
01:11:27.960 --> 01:11:31.000
there's a fight scene in pretty much
every episode. Yeah, and Or like,

1015
01:11:31.159 --> 01:11:34.359
in terms of like ratio of screen
time that is fighting the screen to

1016
01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:38.640
him that is not it has got
to be far and away the lowest of

1017
01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:41.479
any start. Oh yeah, And
that was kind of my point, was

1018
01:11:41.560 --> 01:11:45.359
that because of the format, because
it's this like new hybrid format where they

1019
01:11:45.359 --> 01:11:49.439
basically made four movies and released them
in episodes. And you know, they

1020
01:11:49.479 --> 01:11:59.399
basically decided we're going to have,
you know, an action climax to a

1021
01:11:59.520 --> 01:12:03.560
bunch of of non action movies basically, and so it definitely leans more on

1022
01:12:03.640 --> 01:12:06.159
suspense. And that's what I meant
about, Like, if you want to

1023
01:12:06.199 --> 01:12:10.920
put that much characterization in what you
just don't have room for the kind of

1024
01:12:10.960 --> 01:12:15.560
action that like an action film demands. Right. Action movies just it's like

1025
01:12:15.600 --> 01:12:20.640
there's there's like some contractual obligation that
more than fifty percent of the movie has

1026
01:12:20.680 --> 01:12:25.560
to be action, right, and
you can only have so much. Kind

1027
01:12:25.560 --> 01:12:28.520
Of funny because the whole point of
this podcast is to talk about the commentary

1028
01:12:28.520 --> 01:12:33.399
that happens in action movies, right, And what I'm saying is like I

1029
01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:38.239
feel like you only have time to
do a little bit and make a few

1030
01:12:38.279 --> 01:12:42.479
points and raise questions. Honestly,
to me, that's the best thing an

1031
01:12:42.520 --> 01:12:45.359
action movie can do in terms of
trying to get people to think about things,

1032
01:12:45.720 --> 01:12:50.640
is raise some questions and make people
and encourage people to think about things,

1033
01:12:50.760 --> 01:12:55.479
because you're going to have a lot
more time to think about things outside

1034
01:12:55.479 --> 01:12:58.880
of watching the movie than in the
movie. And like, if the movie

1035
01:12:58.920 --> 01:13:02.520
makes you think that's I think more
thinking is better, so you know,

1036
01:13:02.600 --> 01:13:05.000
yeah, I think it's really true. All right, I think this is

1037
01:13:05.039 --> 01:13:08.680
a good time to wrap up our
main discussion. Paul, as always,

1038
01:13:08.680 --> 01:13:11.039
thank you so much for being a
part of this. We're gonna go into

1039
01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:15.600
our Patreon only last section in just
a moment, but for those who aren't

1040
01:13:15.640 --> 01:13:17.760
patrons yet, let me just say, as always, thank you so much

1041
01:13:17.760 --> 01:13:21.439
for listening. This is all part
of the Ethical Panda and you can find

1042
01:13:21.479 --> 01:13:26.000
all the ways to contact us at
the Ethical Panda dot com. Would love

1043
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:28.359
to know your thoughts, would love
to know your feedback. Have you seen

1044
01:13:28.479 --> 01:13:30.000
Dred have you never seen it?
What do you think about what we've talked

1045
01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:34.039
about? Would love to hear from
you. Find us an email, Twitter,

1046
01:13:34.159 --> 01:13:38.760
TikTok, all those places. Just
search for the Ethical Panda or go

1047
01:13:38.840 --> 01:13:43.399
to the Ethical Panda dot com to
find all the info. Paul is zen

1048
01:13:43.520 --> 01:13:45.279
Madman. You can find all sorts
of stuff about what he's doing by googling

1049
01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:48.640
Zen Madman. But mostly I just
want to really encourage you if you can,

1050
01:13:48.680 --> 01:13:53.359
if you enjoy these podcasts, if
this content is bringing something into your

1051
01:13:53.359 --> 01:13:57.520
life, take a moment and take
check out our Patreon page. The show

1052
01:13:57.680 --> 01:13:59.880
link will be in the show notes. It's also on our web page.

1053
01:14:00.359 --> 01:14:02.800
It really would be so helpful if
you can just throw in just a couple

1054
01:14:02.840 --> 01:14:06.479
of bucks a month to help support
the work we're doing here. I love

1055
01:14:06.520 --> 01:14:10.680
making these podcasts. It is expensive, there's a lot of expenses to go

1056
01:14:10.720 --> 01:14:12.359
into it. There's a lot of
things that I want to get to be

1057
01:14:12.399 --> 01:14:15.439
able to help further improve the quality
of the content we put out for you,

1058
01:14:16.279 --> 01:14:19.640
and even just you know, at
the lowest level you'll get. There's

1059
01:14:19.640 --> 01:14:23.680
different benefits that you can get,
including some of the Patreon content, all

1060
01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:28.319
the Patron content that we're talking about, bonus episodes, and bonus content at

1061
01:14:28.359 --> 01:14:30.920
the end of every episode. You
can get ad free content and not have

1062
01:14:30.960 --> 01:14:33.840
to listen to the ads every week. There's so many benefits you get.

1063
01:14:33.880 --> 01:14:38.000
There's so many ways that you can
help and support us. So please,

1064
01:14:38.079 --> 01:14:41.239
please, please, If you got
that couple lecture bucks a month and you

1065
01:14:41.560 --> 01:14:44.399
really love this content, take a
moment and just look at check out the

1066
01:14:44.399 --> 01:14:46.520
Patreon. Maybe it's not going to
be for you, that's no problem either,

1067
01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:49.119
but if you think it's worth it, would really love to have your

1068
01:14:49.119 --> 01:14:53.279
support. If you're not up for
that, other great ways to support this

1069
01:14:53.319 --> 01:14:57.000
podcast is leave us a five star
review wherever you like to leave reviews,

1070
01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:00.039
Share it with a friend, get
other people listening, help share what we're

1071
01:15:00.039 --> 01:15:03.399
trying to do with this podcast and
with my other podcast, Star Wars Universe

1072
01:15:03.399 --> 01:15:08.199
podcast with other people. SOA,
myself and Paul, thank you so much

1073
01:15:08.239 --> 01:15:12.159
for listening. I figure to stick
around for the bonus content as a patron.

1074
01:15:12.199 --> 01:15:14.560
It'll be coming right now, and
if not, thank you so much

1075
01:15:14.600 --> 01:15:19.000
and have a great day.