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Welcome to another episode of Adventures in
dev Ops. It feels like we were

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just here, Warren. That was
to you. Yeah, I know,

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you know. I just thought that
you had something else lined up after that,

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because sometimes you just keep on going, right. Oh so maybe I

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tend to ramble. No, that's
fair. Yeah, it does happen to

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even the best of us once we
get onto a topic that really meets close

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to our hearts. And I feel
like we have a good one lined up

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for today. Dude, I am
so excited about today because we'll just cut

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to the chase because I'm sure everyone
on the podcast feed has already seen the

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title. And joining us today is
Kelsey high Tower. Kelsey, Welcome to

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the show. Happy to be here. I'm so excited to have you here,

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so just to I feel like you
don't need an introduction, but I

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want to make sure that everyone who's
listening who may not know who you are,

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is familiar with you. Your software
engineer, developer, advocate, and

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speaker, most well known for Kubernetes
and your work for open source and your

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time spent at Google. Is that
a pretty fair assessment. Yeah, I

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think that's a good assessment of the
last mile the last eight years of a

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twenty five year career. You know, before that, I used to work

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in enterprise it financial services, praying
to God that the Apache server does at

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fall over in the middle of the
night. I've worked in web hosting,

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tech support. I've contributed to Python
and cible terror form, and so throughout

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my career I've had many of the
roles that I'm guessing a lot of your

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listeners have had. And I think
maybe the thing that maybe some of the

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listeners haven't done is that part where
you start to contribute to the tools that

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you use every day, the part
where you actually join the community of people

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thinking about what comes next, thinking
about not just reporting the bugs, but

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fixing the bugs. And I think
that just brings balance to someone's career where

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there becomes a lot of outward facing
work and you see that in form of

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conferences, open source contributions, tweets
on Twitter, those kind of things.

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Yeah, I think I talk with
a lot of people getting started in their

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tech career, and I think that's
one of the things that a lot of

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them have they struggle with, is
they see someone like you in the last

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eight years of your career and they're
like, how do I get there,

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you know, and they're looking for
you know, they're searching Google job postings,

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looking for Kelsey High Tower's replacement.
And I'm like, no, you

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have to. You got to start
at the entry level and you you sort

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of have to grind your way up. And I think that's I think that's

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somewhere along the way we've missed communicating
that message over the last generation. Yeah,

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I mean it's hard. I mean
when we watch things that are typically

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televised professional sports. You know,
they don't televise the middle school games,

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right, they televise the pro games. And so when you're watching the pros,

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you know, you're seeing twenty five
year training be perfected, and then

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you're only seeing the one zero zero
one percent of all the people who've tried

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this do it. So what you're
watching is the absolute pinnacle of that particular

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thing. And I think it's okay
to kind of observe those things and then

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people say, hey, what happens
when you meet someone like that? Try

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to ask, like, how how
they got to that point? Because it's

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these little things where I always encourage
people. If you're on year one,

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year five, most people are trying
to get to what they see on the

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screen that they don't pay attention to
the nuance and the detail, like learning

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how to work with other people,
learning how to communicate to your manager that

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you don't feel challenged and you would
like to do something more, learning how

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the tools you use work. I'm
just writing PHP. PHP is used by

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Facebook in production. There are ways
to make it faster, there are ways

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to build things like Shopify. Pay
attention to the things that are in front

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of you. Don't race past that, because I think what people end up

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with is those first five to ten
years almost throw away, and they didn't

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really learn a lot. I met
a guy that reached out for mentoring.

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He's like, hey, I'm trying
to get to the next level, and

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he blamed everything on the job.
Oh, I'm only doing this. These

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people are slow, they don't know
what's going on. And I'm sitting here

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and I'm like, what do you
do. He's like, well, I

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do a little bit of this,
and he mentioned I managed the VMware environment.

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I said, oh, oh this
is great. You can definitely carry

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that particular thing onto the next thing. Why are they using vms instead of

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bare metal can answer the question?
I was like, oh, you haven't

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been learning. You've just been doing. You've gotten the instructions, and you've

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mastered the instructions so well that you
think you know how it works. I

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was like, what I want you
to do is go back on Monday and

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just ask a question. Why are
we using vms instead of bare metal?

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Is there a performance overhead? When
should you not use the VM? Is

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there a security related clause? How
does Intel assist in this? There are

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so many levels to this that I
promise you that you have not necessarily learned

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everything you can to the current job. You just haven't been asking the right

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questions. It's always encouraged people slow
down a little bit, go deep before

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you move on. Yeah, and
I think the attitude that you have makes

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a huge difference there. And instead
of finding faults outside Jocko Willing talks about

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this a lot, you know,
instead of finding faults outside, internalize it

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and say what can I do to
change this? Because really I'm the only

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variable I have control over. And
it seems like that seems to be very

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very effective for people long term.
I always ask myself, what do you

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attribute that to throughout like your childhood
when you grow up, you know,

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I was lucky. I was born
in eighty one, so I was part

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of a generation that played outside,
you know, pre internet, pre smartphones

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and going outside you kind of do
have to fit for yourself. You can't

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call mom, right you go play
basketball at the park and someone gets you

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a hard file. There's no referee, no replay, there's no challenge.

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You just keep playing. You figure
out what the boundaries are and you try

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to stay in those particular lanes.
My first job was at McDonald's. Now

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you can complain about that and it
doesn't make all that money, but you

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can't actually go sweep the lobby with
some integrity and do it to the highest

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level that you're capable of. And
so and I also played sports, and

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also like it's a team, but
the team expects you to do your part.

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And so I think there's a lot
of this part of what am I

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supposed to do? And have I
done what's necessary in terms of preparation showing

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up with the right attitude. I've
learned that it's not always about being the

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best. Sometimes the best person with
the wrong attitude is the person you don't

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want right like you think about it, you need a surgery, and your

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surgeon has a bad attitude today,
I don't know of being the best is

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all you need here. I need
someone to stay focused. I want to

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make sure that I am the most
important person in that room at that moment.

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That's the type of attitude I think. And it's hard to do this

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every day. If you've been at
a job for six years, is it

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easy to have their best attitude in
the world on six years and five months?

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It's hard to come in like it's
day one. But if you find

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yourself kind of too far off,
then you've got to just ask yourself,

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like, hey, is my attitude
where it needs to be? And if

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not, maybe I do need that
take a vacation to hit the reset button.

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Yeah, for sure. And I
think that's where like a solid morning

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routine is helpful long term for that, you know, making sure that right

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off the bat, you're doing something
that puts your mind in that framework that

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you want to be because you can
just kind of ride the waves and end

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up however you whatever mood you're in
for the day, or if you have

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a routine like oh, I'm going
to listen to you know, this particular

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piece of music or this motivational speech, or do you know, there's a

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thousand ways to do it, but
you can actually direct what kind of attitude

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you're going to have during the day. And I notice personally when I fall

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out of that routine that it definitely
shows up. And then I am really

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fortunate to have a good set of
friends who call me out on it and

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help me stay on track. I
needed a reminder last week. I was

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given a keynote, and I mean, I don't think I put enough attention

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into the preparation. You know,
I have a lot of tricks in my

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bag, I have lots of stories, I have a lot of go tos.

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But I was meaning to do some
new stuff and so I ended up

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holding off doing the new stuff until
two days before. And so now I'm

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like, ah, man, I'm
not putting my best foot forward. I'm

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trying to compensate by doing unnatural things, like why am I adding all these

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slides? You don't even use slides? And I just have to remind myself.

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And it was a little different than
like the motivational thing. I had

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to remind myself that I have put
in the effort. This is not a

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two days of preparation. This has
been a lifetime of preparation. And I

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remember saying to myself that morning,
as I was deleting all this extra stuff

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that I did need, don't afraid
to be great. You're good at this.

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Why are you so afraid of being
great? Why are you overcompensating trying

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to plan the whole thing out.
Leave a room, leave a little room

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for just being great. Go on
stage and have that confidence you need.

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And what I needed at that moment
was just a confidence component. You think,

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Hey, you've done lots of these
keynotes, you should no longer be

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fearful of the stage. I am, and sometimes I just need that little

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confidence boost, because that's the difference
between a good talk for me and a

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great talk for me, is how
I'm feeling. And so once I said

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that, I walked to the conference. I didn't know how I was going

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to open it, but I wasn't
afraid of being great, and it turned

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out great, right on, right
on. So, speaking of conferences and

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your career, you are recently retired, So congratulations. Does this mean that

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you're trading in the family car for
a golf cart moving out to Sun City,

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Arizona. The phrase I've heard the
best is I'm retired not tired.

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So it doesn't mean that I just
want to go off and do nothing and

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sit by the beach. Just not
it. But I realized is that there

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were lots of things that I like
doing. I like building stuff. When

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it comes the technology, I love
the delta between a project and a product.

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And then when it comes to public
speaking, it's how I think out

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loud. Right, So I'm thinking
about a bunch of things all the time.

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There are things that catch my eye. I have my own opinion,

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hopefully it's an informed opinion, and
then when I get a chance to go

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on stage, I get to think
out loud and sometimes it causes other people

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to think. I love those components. So when I retire in July last

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year, one thing I kept were
those things. So how do you do

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projects to products? Well? Advising
companies like Docker and for sale companies behind

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RGCD. These are all teams trying
to go and say, hey, we

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got a great project, people like
it. Can we build a business out

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of this so it can be sustainable? And so those elements I'm pretty good

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at. So when I can join
the team and exist in that in any

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way, I can keep doing that
and the same goes for building things that

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these days way less software, a
bit more dy home improvements and people like

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do you just buy like a brand
new house, Like, yes, it's

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a brand new house, first person
ever live in it, but there are

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parts of it that I think needs
to change, And so I started learning

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all the things, just like you
learn software a bunch of YouTube videos.

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But there's one big difference about software, and like physical things, there are

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codes. There are compliance things you
have to do. Like in software,

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you can take all the shortcuts you
want if it builds, so be it

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and the thing you live in that
you expect to keep you safe, there

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are codes. And as someone who
considers themselves a software developer, some people

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will call it an engineer, having
guidelines really helps. Like when you're writing

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in a type language, it tells
you when you're passing around the wrong type

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between functions, or you have a
compiler that really understands what you're trying to

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do and it yells at you when
you're not doing the right thing. Having

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building codes, if you can find
them, is really helpful way of guiding

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you into Oh, I should staple
this row mix cable twelve inches before it

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goes into my electrical panel. Those
things are important because there's a group of

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people who do this professionally. They
have taken time to write down these codes

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so you don't burn your house down. So that's been an interesting kind of

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pivot, but lots of carryover right
on. So that one thing you mentioned

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there that I thought was really cool
was the difference between a project and a

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product, because I've spent most of
my career working with early stage startups,

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and I found that, like,
that's the difference, Like there's always a

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difference, Like in successful startups that
make it, there's always the product that

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you launched with and the product that
your customers thought you launched with, and

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successful companies are able to identify that
gap and close it as quickly as possible.

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And I think that sort of resonates
with the same thing that you were

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saying, the difference between a project
and a product. You launch with a

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project and you use that to build
the product that your customers want. The

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hard part about this is that a
spoon is a very useful tool. There's

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lots of value in a spoon.
Almost every person in the world he knows

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what a spoon is or has used
one. And so when you think about

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it. This should be an easy
way to start a business around spoons,

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at least the first spoon. But
you'll realize that a spoon is a feature.

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It is a feature of a kitchen, or it requires all the other

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things plates, forks, knives,
So you gotta sell a set. But

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everyone can sell a set, and
so like, there's not a lot of

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margin. Maybe the materials you use. How fancy it is that some people

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just want a spoon, and so
spoons do well when sold alongside other things.

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Right, You're probably better off selling
your spoon in Nikea than starting a

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standalone brick and mortar spoon shop.
It's not going to work. There's a

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lot of value in a spoon.
You can go and do research and say

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thirty four percent of the world uses
a spoon. Doesn't matter. You will

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not be a standalone business selling spoons. And I think startups have the same

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thing. You give away software the
lowest price point possible on open source and

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it's pretty good. It solves a
need, that's why you built it,

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especially the ones that come from like
someone used in production at a real company

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and then they decide to open source
it. All the kings have worked out

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they've done all the right things to
get into production, but then they give

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it away. Lots of things sell
quote unquote if you gave them away,

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like even cars you don't like,
if they gave them away, they would

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be the best selling cars in the
world because they're free. And a lot

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of people confuse is the ability to
give something away for the ability to sell

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something, And they're not remotely the
same thing. And the teams look very

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different. So when you just have
a great project, you can over index

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on technical people. Ideally those technical
people know how to interact with the community.

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But even then that's not required if
it just works well, like REP.

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I don't know who maintains right REP
just works and so I don't I

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don't know, like who the product
manager is if there is one. But

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the moment you want to start charging
money and you expect people to pay,

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now you got to start talking to
customers, and customers usually want things like

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integrations, fab REP, compliance and
says so all these things that technically your

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project doesn't need but your customers do. So helping people go from project to

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product is that kind of delta building
real rounded teams. The one thing I

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noticed a lot is a lot of
that to struggle with the story. I

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have a cool new ide, I
say, great, look at all the

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things that can do. I say, oh, that's beautiful. But here's

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the thing. People use Vim,
emacs and Vius code. What is your

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story to them? Oh no,
we're better than them emacs and vias code.

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So you're not listening. Those things
already work, They've been here,

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they have a great track record,
and they have communities. Your thing is

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new. What is your story?
And what I mean by story is do

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you support Vim bindings? Can I
import my Vim config that I spent three

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years getting just right? Or do
I have to start over learning all your

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settings? These are the little nuances
that go from project to product. Will

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is totally sold already on your ide
and he already wants to buy it if

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he can import his Vim bindings right
away. It's all he's been talking about

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for like the last six weeks is
how much he wants the right code directly

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in production using his ide. See
I see baby. Actually I'm stuck on

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the spoon staying I'm gonna I'm gonna
start as SaaS spoons as a service.

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Well, it's really interesting because I
think there was a very important embedded wisdom

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here that I feel like you just
slightly highlighted and then moved on to the

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next thing. And that's I bet. There's a great desire to actually have

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spoons as a use case, right, you know, I want a spoon,

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and so your customers maybe even giving
you this feedback about how great a

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spoon is. But if you doesn't, if you aren't able to turn it

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into an actual product the everything around
it, that feedback is actually what you

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shouldn't be listening to because there's no
money to be made in that specific feature

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that you're offering. And so there's
a difference of whether or not if you're

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listening to the users that are able
to help you make your company great or

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your product great and deliver it to
market, and the ones that are just

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telling you the one little annoyance thing
that they have and getting stuck on that.

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I think we're also getting to a
point where everything doesn't need to be

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a product. And then people struggle
with this, right because most people believe

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if you create some value, there
should be a path of getting rich from

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that value. And as much as
I'm a capitalist just like anyone else,

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don't get confused but not everything is
a product. I think about like fruits

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and vegetables. Should all of those
be products? Or should we still reserve

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the ability to grow them in your
backyard if you needed to, Should nature

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still be able to grow them where
they naturally grow? Or should we just

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get rid of all of that and
everything is only accessible from the grocery store.

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That just wouldn't be good. And
when it comes to open source,

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it's the same situation. Some people
will go and solve a small problem and

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they'll put it on get hub,
and sometimes that's as far as it should

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go. It should just be a
thing on GitHub. It's a project.

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If someone really wants some features,
they can pay a contractor to add the

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feature. Maybe they make donations.
I think let's encrypt is a great example.

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You'll probably remember our time where s
CL certificates were high value products,

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like you could pay VeriSign four hundred
to a twelve hundred dollars a year for

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an extended validate. I don't even
know what extended validate it means, but

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they would give an s sale certificate
that would expire like clockwork, and then

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you'll give them twelve hundred dollars again
for the same certificate, and the difference

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between the one you make and the
one that they make is that they signed

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it and people trust them. So
in many ways, they were sharing their

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reputation with you. Zoom two.
Where we are now you have let's encrypt

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generating what almost half of all SSL
certificates. The reputation is high, they're

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built into every browser and is zero
dollars cost to you, and it's a

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nonprofit. So if you consider donating
to something, Let's encrypt is a good

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example of a project that doesn't need
to become a product, and we should

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still try to figure out how to
fund those things, but it doesn't mean

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that they have to IPO. And
I think that's a little bit more sustainable

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for most of the projects that are
out there. I mean, I think

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that's a really good point, actually, because there's something very close to that

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in the same view. There's a
BIMI certificates to get your logo to show

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up in emails and has almost no
other value, and it's been trying to

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be sold like old certificates of old
for twelve hundred and fifteen hundred dollars just

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for your logo to show up there. And there's only two companies that offer

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it, and people are complaining that
Let's encrypt, you know, isn't offering

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it yet. It's so ridiculous,
honestly that some of these things have been

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productized and there is no way around
that. I mean, look, if

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you can sell it, more power
to you. But I don't think we

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should prohibit Let's encrypt likes so that
shows up, competes with it and then

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becomes the standard. And I think
a lot of people are afraid of that,

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you know, And people say you've
copied my project. It's like,

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dude, you open sourced it,
you chose a license that said I could

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do that. I don't know how
this is stealing or copy Like I thought

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that's what you wanted me to do. So one of the things I think

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would be really interesting to talk about
is how you've obviously been very successful in

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your career, but that's only like
one part of who you are as a

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human. So what what did you
do throughout your career to balance the professional

305
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side of Kelsey Hitar with the personal
side, and specifically around how you maintain

306
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sanity and prevent burnout? Yeah,
I mean I think I walked the burnout

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line most of my career, But
I think it feels different. When you

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put a lot of effort into something
and you get the results you want,

309
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it's the same effort. It feels
like, Man, that was good,

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I want to do it again.
So you probably need some rest, but

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you're probably still working nights and weekends. You probably on call a little too

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much. But if you do the
same amount of effort and you don't get

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the outcomes, like you don't get
that promotion, you don't get the raise,

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it doesn't work. I think that's
when all the other emotions creep in,

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right. That feeling sucks, and
when you're tired and you have that

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feeling, it feels like burnout,
and they're dangerous because they're the same.

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And so for me, one thing
I've done in my career is I kind

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of learned how to set like a
goal that meant something to me and not

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necessarily the company. So if burnout
would be I'm going to do all of

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this and hopefully I get promoted,
and it turns out maybe because of politics,

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you don't get the promotion, and
so you felt like the whole last

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three to four months was a waste
of time, and you want to quit

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something of y'all rage, quit,
unplug the keyboard. I don't know what

324
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when you get to the other you
drive all the way to work, so

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you can quit in front of everybody, right, because that's how you feel.

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But when you kind of think about
yourself, I started, I don't

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know, maybe it's around year seven
of my career. I started thinking like,

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yo, this job can fire me
for any reason. Right, this

329
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is not my family, and even
they can kick me out for any reason.

330
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And so what skills do I need
for the next gig? So I'm

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going to always just for my attitude
and my ethics. I'm going to do

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as best of a job as I
can with the current one. But if

333
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they're not teaching me the next set
of skills I need to be successful,

334
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that's on me. And I'll give
you a good example. On twenty twelve,

335
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I was working at Puppet Labs.
Right, so I was in a

336
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financial institution contributing to open source.
I learned Ruby just so I can contribute

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to Puppet the configuration management tool.
I gave a talk at puppet cough.

338
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:06.200
This is why public speaking is great. All those open source contributions. You

339
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:11.200
would never know my name given a
talk at puppet cough you know who I

340
00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:14.960
am, and so now people can
see me. And while I was in

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town, I did an interview and
I got a job at puppet Lapse,

342
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and I let Ruby and those skills
I was able to cash in on.

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Around a year, maybe a year
and a half, in a new programming

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language emerges Go Link, and I'm
looking at him, like, why do

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we need another programming language we got? I thought we got Ruby, we

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have all of these things, and
it was like, hey, this thing's

347
00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:42.039
in the middle between dynamic languages and
things like C plus plus. And at

348
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the time I'm working on Puppet,
and Puppet uses Ruby, and Ruby has

349
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a global lock interpreter. It can
really start to have performance problems at a

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certain scale, even for something as
simple as like pulling configuration files down and

351
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trying to sink them across the set
of notes. And so we started moving

352
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towards the g using tools like closure. But I saw this go a thing

353
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and I was like, h let
me try it on one of our projects

354
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back there. Back there's a thing
in puppet land that gets all the information

355
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:15.000
about a node and sends it over
to the main server, so it can

356
00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.200
generate your configs. I was like, why is that in Ruby? Wouldn't

357
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.279
it be faster and a single binary? No, nothing to install and not

358
00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:25.960
even been a Ruby and I got
it to work. I was like,

359
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:30.599
Yo, we might be able to
solve our performance problem and we can ease

360
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:34.359
installation. And I remember being like, Yo, you can't use go here

361
00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:40.079
because it doesn't run on SELAIS or
AIX and I was like, what are

362
00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:44.240
you talking about? Like they'll get
around to that, but I don't know

363
00:26:44.279 --> 00:26:49.039
if that's where the industry is going
in the enterprise company. And then I

364
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:56.440
remember Docker coming out and it was
written and go and I'm sitting here like

365
00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:02.200
I got a feeling that this is
going somewhere. And then Terrorform comes out

366
00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:06.200
and I'm sitting here like what are
we doing? We're not paying attention.

367
00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.200
Things are changing, And so I
left puppet Labs. I created a config

368
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:18.000
management tool called comb using Go and
ETZD, and I went to the next

369
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:19.480
space like, hey, this is
the type of thing I want to do,

370
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and Go just pay it off for
me so much, because then it

371
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:30.720
became my on ramp to coros and
I had all the skills to participate and

372
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developed and open source my own project. And then the rose lead to Google,

373
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and so just that little bit of
planning of saying I know where I

374
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:42.119
am, but just investing on what's
next and just making that personal. That

375
00:27:42.200 --> 00:27:47.720
became a big part of my career. So the balance was not there just

376
00:27:47.759 --> 00:27:52.200
to be honest and transparent. I
didn't figure out the family and work situation,

377
00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:57.039
but I did believe that these skills
would contribute to the future that I

378
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:03.519
want. And so last year I
cashed in on all of those big bets

379
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:08.079
and me and my wife retired at
forty two, and so it kind of

380
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.720
feels like, yes, I didn't
have perfect balance the whole way through.

381
00:28:12.440 --> 00:28:17.759
There were times where I did take
good vacations and got off right at five,

382
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:21.240
but there were times where it was
lots of nights and weekends. But

383
00:28:21.640 --> 00:28:25.160
when I turned to my wife in
July of last year and said was it

384
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:29.359
worth it, she said, yes, we're both retired now, and so

385
00:28:29.400 --> 00:28:32.000
that's the way I thought about it. There's a long game component to this

386
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:41.200
too, for sure. Yeah,
have you found since retiring that you have

387
00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:51.839
to struggle or that you're undriven in
how you spend your time? Because it's

388
00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:55.960
like I think a lot of people
look at retirement as a wake up play

389
00:28:56.000 --> 00:28:59.279
some golf, go hang out in
the lounge, you know that, that

390
00:28:59.400 --> 00:29:02.880
type of thing. And I don't
think that's realistic. I don't think that's

391
00:29:03.079 --> 00:29:07.359
sustainable. So have you found it
difficult to occupy your time and keep yourself

392
00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:15.160
active mentally and physically? No,
that's not at all, because you know

393
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:19.839
how we are. Hey, babe, I would like a bidet. What

394
00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:25.799
is the best bidet in the world? Right? That's thirty hours right there,

395
00:29:25.880 --> 00:29:30.799
just researching comments, Reddit post,
Oh, Toto, Oh? People

396
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:34.240
like those? One was Toto invented? I mean, have they sold?

397
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:41.799
What's the history? Now I'm watching
a total documentary on the daisis and how

398
00:29:41.799 --> 00:29:45.440
they were created and how they were
tested in the engineering that goes into those.

399
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:49.240
I was like, well, I
can't just buy a bidacy without imagine

400
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:55.519
toilet. So now I got to
learn how to swap out all the toilets.

401
00:29:56.279 --> 00:29:59.920
What's the difference between one point six
gallons per flesh versus one point two?

402
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:04.599
Oh, Washington State has a law
that all new toilets must be one

403
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:11.039
point two eight gallons of flesh for
the climate efforts. So I'm now deep

404
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:15.640
in this rabbit hole. I got
three new toilets and three Beidet seats,

405
00:30:15.039 --> 00:30:22.680
but they draw fourteen forty watts of
power. You cannot put that on a

406
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:27.440
normal electrical socket with your lights because
the lights will flicker. If you do

407
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:33.920
the math fifteen times point twenty,
that gives you about eighteen hundred lots of

408
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.200
power. Didn't know that. So
when you turn on the Bidet seat,

409
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:40.319
the lights will ficker because of the
draw. And some of these lights are

410
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:42.960
just sensitive the break it doesn't trip. So what do you need? You

411
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:48.480
need more power. More importantly,
you need dedicated power. So now I

412
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:53.519
have holes in my garage ceiling because
I'm running twenty amp circuits only after I

413
00:30:53.599 --> 00:31:00.480
learned how to pull a permit from
the county. I have no short of

414
00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.640
things to do. And I would
say one other thing. I just started

415
00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:07.039
saying yes to everything. Do you
want to go to my friend's birthday?

416
00:31:07.039 --> 00:31:10.839
Probably they'll be dancing and eating.
I don't like to dance, but now

417
00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:14.960
yes, and I'm going to dance
anyway. And so it's a lot more

418
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:19.039
yes to the people's stuff. It's
a lot more patient in who are these

419
00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:23.880
people? Talk to them being interested. There are other stories out there that

420
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.599
are not tech related, and so
I think I just started opening up myself

421
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:30.680
more to just more things, because
you know how it is when you work

422
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:34.599
nine to five, that means someone
else finds something to do with your time

423
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:40.640
from nine to five. They figure
out how to maximize their investment, and

424
00:31:40.799 --> 00:31:45.640
all you have to do is can
you not do the same, And so

425
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:49.559
it's more of it's not about not
working. It's more about working for yourself

426
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:55.240
and having more time to work at
being a good human, being a good

427
00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:59.720
father, being a good husband,
being a good all these other things.

428
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:05.599
They're kind of on the hook for
as well. What's been the most surprising

429
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:08.880
thing that you said yes to that
you were like, Oh, I didn't

430
00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:13.440
know I was going to like that. Honestly, it's going to be those

431
00:32:13.559 --> 00:32:17.559
parties where there's lots of dancing and
getting I hate getting dressed up. I

432
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:22.960
don't like shirts with collars. I
bought my first blazer a month ago.

433
00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:25.400
Dressing up hate my thing. It's
like, oh, you got to go

434
00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:29.880
through this, What do you mean
it has to match? Oh my god,

435
00:32:30.359 --> 00:32:35.039
we're not going to the met Gala? Like why You're just supposed to

436
00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.240
go as a birthday party? Check
e cheese, some coins for the machines,

437
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:43.119
pizza were done. What what's all
this other stuff? And so you

438
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:47.720
just say yes and then you go
and all these people have different backgrounds,

439
00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.920
you listen to them. I like
dancing. I used to dance a lot

440
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.759
when I was younger. You can
still have fun dancing. You don't need

441
00:32:57.799 --> 00:33:01.160
to be the best dancer. You
can just be there and just jul and

442
00:33:01.279 --> 00:33:05.960
just be in the moment and not
rush so much. So what I found

443
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:10.160
is I like just going to these
random events as long as I have the

444
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:19.519
time to just be there and not
worried about some email poling up thin or

445
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:27.839
about getting power to the days.
I like those two. I feel like

446
00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:30.440
the flush followed by the lights flickering. That's sort of a special sort of

447
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:37.200
experience. Yeah, you're like,
what's wrong, and then you start doing

448
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:42.839
the research. But I've been so
Yeah, I think it's being important to

449
00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:45.039
know how these subsystems in your house
work, from the plumbing to the AC

450
00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:51.400
to the electrical to how the Floyd
Joyce align. And so my toolbag is

451
00:33:51.440 --> 00:33:55.160
getting pretty massive now as I'm collecting
these random tools. But I don't know,

452
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:58.759
I just kind of see it like
my software and my tech career.

453
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:02.319
The more tools you have, the
more problems you can solve when they come

454
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:07.119
up. So this is just another
investment for me. Yeah, I mean

455
00:34:07.119 --> 00:34:10.760
it's pretty related from my experience having
worked with and hired through a lot of

456
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:15.360
people that how you operate in a
professional environment is very similar to maybe your

457
00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:20.079
core values and how they come out
in your personal life as well. So

458
00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:24.079
I mean, obviously you've transitioned and
you're still going out and looking into how

459
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:29.719
to solve these problems that you're generating
yourself, but important to you in a

460
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:37.039
similar way in which you did in
your career. Absolutely, Home Depot,

461
00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:44.320
Lows or other Amazon, mainly because
of the ability to select and choose.

462
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:51.119
Maybe I just like the home Depot
color scheme and their fall to home Depot,

463
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:55.159
and I think Lows if they carry
the thing I want, I'm just

464
00:34:55.199 --> 00:34:58.440
going to buy it there. But
honestly, you know how this works.

465
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:01.679
There's always like A and Home Default
across the street from each other, and

466
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:07.000
my guess is where I get off
the freeway exit. Whoever's first, you're

467
00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:14.719
winning. That's one of the things
I do like about having the physical store

468
00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:16.360
close. Whenever it comes to tools, as you can go in, you

469
00:35:16.360 --> 00:35:21.159
can pick it up, feel it
and kind of get an idea for it

470
00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.920
that you don't really get that experience
when shopping online for it. Now,

471
00:35:25.000 --> 00:35:29.800
I do try my best to go
to my local hardware store, like those

472
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:35.280
little you know in your neighborhood.
They have some obscure things that you need

473
00:35:35.360 --> 00:35:38.079
last minute, and they're close by. I try to give them as much

474
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:42.920
money as possible when I'm buying this
stuff, because it's really convenient to have

475
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:45.119
one closed. You know, how
to drive, you know, five or

476
00:35:45.159 --> 00:35:49.679
ten minutes down the road and some
people further. And so those small businesses

477
00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:52.400
they tend to be helpful. They
tend to answer questions that other people don't

478
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:57.400
have time to answer. So I
do try to support those local businesses as

479
00:35:57.400 --> 00:36:01.320
well. Yeah, there's an A
Hardware just near us here, and all

480
00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:07.239
the ACE hardwarees I guess are independently
owned and operated. But you're right,

481
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:09.639
you know, whenever we go in
there, they're always like, hey,

482
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:13.000
how did that last project turn out? You know, and you get this

483
00:36:13.119 --> 00:36:16.440
rapport with them where they're kind of
they're kind of emotionally invested in whatever you're

484
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:22.119
working on along with you, which
is cool. Yeah, one of the

485
00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:24.360
biggest surprises that I know a lot
of people probably think this should be normal.

486
00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:28.880
When I was going to like those
trade stores, like where plumbers buy

487
00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:32.440
their equipment and you know, wholesale
various things, I walked in, I

488
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:37.039
told the person my name once.
Then I came back, and as soon

489
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:39.639
as I walked into store, it's
like, hey, Kelsey, and I

490
00:36:39.639 --> 00:36:45.320
look around, like, you can't
possibly know me from that. You just

491
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:51.519
gave me a quote lest time,
and he made it a pride to say

492
00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:54.760
my name. And I just thought
that was amazing that they pay that level

493
00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:00.000
attention to detail, because I think
when you're selling what is arguably a huge

494
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:04.000
commodity, they don't necessarily make any
of this stuff. Any other store could

495
00:37:04.039 --> 00:37:07.920
sell this stuff. The level of
customer service and the way they treat people,

496
00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:10.920
it's just a good reminder is that
sometimes that makes all the difference.

497
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:19.199
Yeah, It's amazing how much something
just just remembering your name leaves such a

498
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:23.880
favorable impression. I had a similar
scenario about a month ago. I went

499
00:37:23.880 --> 00:37:28.920
to an irrigation supply store. Didn't
even know those things existed, but it's

500
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:32.880
just like warehouse place that just had
irrigation, you know, the sprinklers and

501
00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:36.719
the valves and the manifolds and stuff. And I go in and the lady

502
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:42.559
that's working there, I kind of
but butchered out in my best English what

503
00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:45.960
I was trying to do, and
she's like, oh yeah. She hands

504
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.719
me this empty cardboard box and it's
like follow me, you know, and

505
00:37:47.800 --> 00:37:51.800
takes me through these aisles and she's
throwing shit in the box, you know,

506
00:37:52.000 --> 00:37:54.480
and just completely hooks me up.
Then I get back and start piecing

507
00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:00.360
all this stuff together, and through
that little bit of a description, she

508
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:04.920
gave me everything that I needed to
complete the project and nothing I didn't need.

509
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.599
And I was like, Wow,
that is that is so cool.

510
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:13.519
I mean, the DeVos folks listening, I don't I don't think people understand

511
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:15.840
you're also in the customer service business. Yeah. A lot of times I

512
00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:21.360
think people get very confused. You
work at this company, this is how

513
00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:23.320
we do things. Look, maybe
you're even open to a new ideas,

514
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:28.360
maybe you're like doing this DevOps thing. But truth is, I don't think

515
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:31.880
people realize that you're in the customer
service business. When someone's trying to get

516
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:37.559
something accomplished, typically they're doing it
because it's the work they didn't wake up

517
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:38.239
one morning it was like, you
know what, I want to do a

518
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:42.519
thing we don't need to do like
they typically need to have it done.

519
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:45.840
And if you could be like that
person that says, here's everything you need

520
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:52.679
because you learn your job so well
that you know that even though they didn't

521
00:38:52.719 --> 00:38:55.679
ask you, you're just making sure
that they're set up for success. And

522
00:38:55.679 --> 00:39:00.280
that's where those kind of I don't
know, those getting started guides, these

523
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:05.880
one button deploys, all of these
little things we do just to make sure

524
00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:08.039
that people don't struggle or get in
away of the big job because in your

525
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:13.840
situation, you have a bigger problem
that you need to solve. I'm only

526
00:39:13.920 --> 00:39:16.800
coming to the store to get the
tools so I can go back to the

527
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:23.119
big problem. That's why I like
referring to go ahead, Warren. No,

528
00:39:23.159 --> 00:39:25.440
I'm just saying, I'm so glad
you didn't say, like just so

529
00:39:25.480 --> 00:39:29.760
they could do their job, like
just so that they could they didn't have

530
00:39:29.800 --> 00:39:32.559
to worry about this, because I
feel like it's so often in the industry

531
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:39.559
that I hear anyone who's outside of
doing on feature related work that oh,

532
00:39:39.679 --> 00:39:44.119
I'm just here to make it so
that no one has to focus about this

533
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:47.480
area at all. But I think
realistically that's not what's super effective. And

534
00:39:47.519 --> 00:39:51.599
I think the you know, the
story about pulling out all of the parts

535
00:39:51.639 --> 00:39:54.800
for water reclamation, et cetera.
It's you have to know what's going on

536
00:39:54.840 --> 00:39:59.480
there. You have to be able
to have a conversation and collaborate and give

537
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:00.679
them what they need. But it
goes both ways, right, you know

538
00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:05.239
they have the project idea in mind, you don't just hand them a one

539
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:07.320
click deploy. You know, that's
probably the right answer, but there is

540
00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:12.519
some conversation about what you're working on
to actually even make that recommendation in the

541
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.960
first place. Yeah, I wanted
to add that. That's why I like

542
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:22.280
referring to DevOps as a trade so
much, because it mentally I associate that

543
00:40:22.360 --> 00:40:29.280
with you know, electrician or a
plumber or a carpenter, and it's a

544
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:32.400
you know, a skills a skilled
trade, and it makes me think of

545
00:40:32.400 --> 00:40:37.559
someone who's gone through the ranks of
apprentice to journey on and taking the time

546
00:40:37.599 --> 00:40:40.559
and effort to master that trade so
that they know the ins and outs of

547
00:40:40.599 --> 00:40:45.639
it and they know which tools to
use to help you successful in whatever it

548
00:40:45.679 --> 00:40:51.840
is you're trying to accomplish. I
like this analogy a lot because that was

549
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:57.119
kind of always my hang up with
just the word DevOps. You can just

550
00:40:57.199 --> 00:41:00.519
use the title whether you're a trades
person with the right attitude or not.

551
00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.840
You just said, we're just doing
DevOps. How Like, when you become

552
00:41:05.840 --> 00:41:08.400
an electrician, there's a lot of
stages, like you got to be like

553
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:14.880
a journeyman for like a decade before
you consider like a master electrician, and

554
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:22.119
every job you do there's a knowledgeable
inspection like this doesn't meet code, and

555
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:25.440
you have this sometimes it feels like
a rigorous feedback loop, but there is

556
00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:29.880
a feedback loop saying that's not quite
right. And then you have a group

557
00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:32.159
of people that can look at each
other's toolbags and like, yo, that's

558
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:37.079
what this thing is for. This
is this particular procedure. A lot of

559
00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:38.360
times what I've seen, and look, it's not everyone. There are some

560
00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:42.800
people who do this immaculately well,
whether they use the word DevOps or not,

561
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:45.239
they're just going to be good at
their jobs. But there are some

562
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:50.079
people who don't really understand the job, but they've adopted the title, and

563
00:41:50.119 --> 00:41:52.800
so in those scenarios, just like
yo, I mean, we've just been

564
00:41:52.599 --> 00:41:58.960
running this raggedy ass script for seven
years, but it's DevOps now because we

565
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:00.599
had a flags to it. It's
like, what are you talking about?

566
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:06.880
There is this part where you have
to pay attention to how things are changing.

567
00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:10.679
If you're going to be a professional
electrician, the standards change, and

568
00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:16.559
your job is to have I think
they require so many hours of continuous education

569
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:21.159
to make sure that you're up to
date on the various specs and codes.

570
00:42:21.639 --> 00:42:27.000
I've watched a lot of people not
learn anything like even if you're not going

571
00:42:27.079 --> 00:42:31.320
to use there for you shouldn't know
what it does. You shouldn't know how

572
00:42:31.320 --> 00:42:35.360
it compares to the thing you're currently
doing. I'm not saying you got it

573
00:42:35.400 --> 00:42:38.440
all cargo cult the next new thing, but you have to understand why the

574
00:42:38.480 --> 00:42:42.599
new thing exists. You have to
at least be able to compare it to

575
00:42:42.760 --> 00:42:45.679
what you're currently doing so you can
make an informed decision not to use it.

576
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:50.800
And so I've seen a lot of
people just holding back themselves, their

577
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:55.960
team, or the whole organization because
they forget that professional development component that,

578
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.760
Okay, are my skills where they
need to be, Are my tools where

579
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:02.760
they need to be. I'm gonna
like, let's be clear about what I

580
00:43:02.760 --> 00:43:07.280
mean. Are your tools where they
need to be, Like those professional ideas

581
00:43:07.320 --> 00:43:10.559
of like why would people ever use
those? And I remember I was trying

582
00:43:10.599 --> 00:43:15.360
to get something done and the language
is never used, and I pulled down

583
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:21.880
one of these, like jet brains
ideas the auto complete, the debugging,

584
00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:25.800
some of the things they do,
because as a full time software developer,

585
00:43:27.239 --> 00:43:31.480
I don't have time to be switching
between seven five. It's gonna cost me

586
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:36.280
too much time. And you see
this where it trades people some of the

587
00:43:36.320 --> 00:43:38.920
tools they have, Like why do
they make a wrench just to do this

588
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:44.199
one thing? It's like because without
this wrench, you're gonna be back and

589
00:43:44.239 --> 00:43:46.920
forth with the wrong tools. You're
gonna break something, you're gonna cut yourself.

590
00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:50.880
That's what this tool is for.
And so I think, as you're

591
00:43:50.920 --> 00:43:54.559
gonna be a person a practitioner in
the debos movement, nothing wrong with being

592
00:43:54.599 --> 00:43:59.559
where you are, it's just that
that can't be the case five years from

593
00:43:59.559 --> 00:44:05.599
now. Yeah, for sure.
It's not the type of career that you're

594
00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:08.239
going to land your first job and
you can ride that thing out til you

595
00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:14.800
hit sixty five and start collecting social
security. Well, I think the mindset

596
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:16.599
is sort of the whole point there. That the mindset is that you have

597
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:22.239
to automate your job away almost you
want to understand what's an improvement for that

598
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:25.800
even that space. You know,
does that mindset translate to the team that

599
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:30.000
you're working on or the organization making
the shift? If that's not what's happening,

600
00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:32.679
you know who is who is responsible
for that? And you know,

601
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:36.400
Kelsey, you said something here and
I feel like I got triggers. Home

602
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:37.079
may have heard it and be like, oh, you know what, there's

603
00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:42.800
no like DevOps certification yet, right, maybe we should go out and get

604
00:44:42.800 --> 00:44:45.679
one of those. You know,
you know there's some company that can start

605
00:44:45.719 --> 00:44:49.599
selling this for sure. These are
the tools you need to be have in

606
00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:53.119
your and your toolbox in order to
be an effective DevOps person. You know

607
00:44:53.159 --> 00:44:55.960
what you know? I might I
might say maybe if it was from a

608
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:00.679
good place, if it came from
a right kind of moment. For example,

609
00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:06.119
you said the mindset, it's hard
to have a good mindset without accountability.

610
00:45:06.519 --> 00:45:09.039
I'm good at what I do.
How do you know? You don't

611
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:14.440
know? Right? Because most professional
endeavors, like when I say professional,

612
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:19.199
meaning they're judged like, yo,
you are not good, you don't get

613
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:23.440
to play on the team. You're
not good, or you're good, but

614
00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:29.280
you're no longer competitive. See that's
different. Like you can have ten years

615
00:45:29.320 --> 00:45:34.280
of experience, you've done good for
us. But the new people coming into

616
00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:40.159
the game, the game is changed. They move faster, their tools are

617
00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:44.559
better. As much as we want
to keep you around, we cannot.

618
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:50.239
And so that's when a mind mindset
shift has to occur because you just won't

619
00:45:50.239 --> 00:45:54.119
have a job. But imagine scenario
where the company doesn't hire those type of

620
00:45:54.119 --> 00:45:58.440
people. They don't want to pay
for those types of people. So you're

621
00:45:58.480 --> 00:46:02.440
in your little bubble, still doing
stuff from ninety eight, like I'm killing

622
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:07.719
it. You see this corn shell. The spaces are perfect. It's like

623
00:46:07.440 --> 00:46:13.440
look the Roman corn shell. I'm
just saying, for what you're trying to

624
00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:15.679
achieve, there might be a better
way of doing it. Like, no,

625
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:19.639
it doesn't corn surre. It works
just fine. See that's the dangerous

626
00:46:19.679 --> 00:46:23.440
component that I think is the trap
that a lot of these you know,

627
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:30.079
whether it's devopsis on their movement,
tries to address. And I do think

628
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:34.719
awareness, so I'm not necessarily the
biggest fan. But it's really valuable having

629
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:38.039
things like the Devous Report because when
you get to see what other companies are

630
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:44.480
doing, that's extremely valuable because it's
hard to get better if you don't know

631
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:46.599
where the bar is. And so
I do think people have to go and

632
00:46:46.719 --> 00:46:51.719
just at least do a little bit
of self reflection and look at these things

633
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:55.960
and say, hmm, has the
goalpost moved and should I move towards them?

634
00:46:57.159 --> 00:47:00.960
Yeah. I mean there's an important
aspect here which would be a huge

635
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:06.840
miss otherwise realistically if they're not paying
attention to that. I think an important

636
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.719
aspect here is if your company isn't
changing, it's really because they may not

637
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:14.199
even know, right If you're in
the position of doing the in what you

638
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:15.519
call DevOps, you know what,
if that's what you're doing, if that's

639
00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:20.679
even your title, or maybe you're
doing something that helps and just supports the

640
00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:23.760
teams by building some tools, it's
you're not innovating in that space. If

641
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:29.519
you're not going out and learning those
additional what other companies are doing or what

642
00:47:29.599 --> 00:47:32.119
new tools are available, even how
the mindset is changing, there may not

643
00:47:32.159 --> 00:47:36.079
be anyone doing that else in the
company. You know, that that means

644
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.159
your company won't be effective, your
company won't be innovating if you're not the

645
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:42.599
one doing that. And I feel
like if you're just focusing on the tools

646
00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:45.880
you've got and what has been working
for the last ten to twenty years,

647
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:52.320
you're definitely gonna be falling behind.
Now. One thing I will say,

648
00:47:52.360 --> 00:47:55.199
though, there are some things that
don't want to change. And so I

649
00:47:55.239 --> 00:48:00.079
know we say innovation a lot,
and so much should be innovad for sure.

650
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:06.159
Somewhere there should always be some form
of innovation happening. It's harder than

651
00:48:06.159 --> 00:48:09.320
most people think, and sometimes you
do just need companies to be in execution

652
00:48:09.559 --> 00:48:15.519
mode. Like some of these microphones
like this r A twenty that I'm using

653
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:22.119
from electro Voice. These things are
roughly the same for decades, and when

654
00:48:22.119 --> 00:48:25.519
you change them because you're trying to
do innovation, like at a USBC port

655
00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:30.280
on it and it throws off the
sound because of the circuitry that you put

656
00:48:30.320 --> 00:48:37.039
in. Don't want that innovation.
Leave the XLR cable and I will plug

657
00:48:37.039 --> 00:48:42.079
it into my own and don't change
it. Now. They've innovated to get

658
00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:45.239
to this point, no doubt.
But sometimes people say, hey, so

659
00:48:45.440 --> 00:48:50.320
it is a It's such a hard
thing to do. It's like when do

660
00:48:50.360 --> 00:48:55.079
you change and when do you not? And I think that's the part where

661
00:48:55.079 --> 00:49:01.239
a skillful person will constantly be aware
and have a reason. We do not

662
00:49:01.519 --> 00:49:06.320
need to use this new thing in
this context. So I just want you

663
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:13.280
to be aware, have the ability
to But boys judgment so important to keep

664
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.320
you from chasing new and shiny versus
things focus on the task at hand.

665
00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:21.880
I use a personal rule here.
I call it it is my rule of

666
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:24.320
three Warren's rule of three. If
I hear about a product or a tool,

667
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:29.079
or an area, mindset, whatever
it is, three times, I

668
00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:34.280
know that I have to invest in
understanding what that is more either because if

669
00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:37.320
I don't, no one else will
do it. Maybe it really will become

670
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:39.559
my problem. It will land on
my lap in some way, and I'll

671
00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:44.360
regret not having done it earlier.
Or I may just be the only person

672
00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:46.760
who is at the intersection of where
that keeps happening. I am the right

673
00:49:46.800 --> 00:49:52.159
person to actually take that next step. So if I say beetle Juice,

674
00:49:52.159 --> 00:49:58.199
Beetle Juice, Beetle Juice, that's
three or eight the second movie coming out

675
00:49:58.280 --> 00:50:01.440
there, well, right, And
I cannot tell you how excited my wife

676
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:05.679
is to see it. It's like, oh, I didn't know this was

677
00:50:05.719 --> 00:50:08.360
a thing, but okay, let's
go. Peter Juice is a classic.

678
00:50:08.440 --> 00:50:12.360
I mean I went back and watched
it. I was like, yo,

679
00:50:13.280 --> 00:50:15.440
I mean it's you got to be
into that kind of thing. But it

680
00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:20.760
is a classic for its time.
And even the rewatchability was pretty good.

681
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:24.320
So the rewatchability was good on it. I mean part one. I mean

682
00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:28.920
it's it's a quirky movie. So
yeah, sure, I thought were amazing.

683
00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:30.000
I go back and watch it,
like, yo, this is pretty

684
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:37.159
terrible. But Peter Juice has its
own unique style and story, format and

685
00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:40.719
visuals. I think it's worth a
rewatch right on because I remember seeing it

686
00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:45.679
whenever I was younger. But but
like you said, so many Like there's

687
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:49.480
so many movies I watched when I
was younger that I just have built up

688
00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:52.119
in my mind and then I go
back and rewatch them. I was like,

689
00:50:52.119 --> 00:50:53.960
oh, I was I should have
just stuck with the memory on that

690
00:50:54.079 --> 00:51:00.119
one. I'm lucky if I remember
the titles because I saw so many movies

691
00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:05.239
where you missed the first couple of
minutes And this is back of course where

692
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:07.920
if you don't see the title screen, that's it. You know, you'll

693
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:14.840
never know again. If I'm lucky, like years down the road, I'd

694
00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:17.599
see a rerun of it, and
I'll watch the beginning of see the name

695
00:51:17.639 --> 00:51:21.960
of the title, and then wait, I've seen this before, but I

696
00:51:22.000 --> 00:51:24.960
have no idea what it is,
and then I'd put it together. Should

697
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:30.159
get entertained twice. I mean,
there's movies I probably watched ten times and

698
00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:34.480
still don't get the title, right, Lie, I think it's The Last

699
00:51:34.559 --> 00:51:38.960
Dragon. Yeah, the Last Dragon, I believe, And I don't know

700
00:51:39.000 --> 00:51:43.400
the title. But it's like a
spoof on karate movies. But it's a

701
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:47.280
serious movie, Bruce Lee Roy.
They got this glow thing going and it's

702
00:51:47.320 --> 00:51:52.559
like in like the eighties settings and
you got black folks doing kumfu and karate

703
00:51:53.119 --> 00:51:58.960
and Harlem. It is inside this
movie. If you haven't seen The Last

704
00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:02.199
Dragon, you will. You don't
know whether to laugh or take it serious

705
00:52:02.280 --> 00:52:06.880
because it's that type of movie.
So have you've ever seen like Big Trouble,

706
00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:10.880
Little China. It's now of those. So if you've seen Big Trouble,

707
00:52:10.880 --> 00:52:15.719
Little China, then you have to
add The Last Dragon to the collection

708
00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:22.400
just to round things out, all
right, I'm I am. It's got

709
00:52:22.480 --> 00:52:24.400
to be a black guy doing this
thing. If you see that Bruce Lee

710
00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:30.079
Roy, that's how you know I'm
not talking along with Bruce Lee. No,

711
00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:35.360
this is Bruce Lee Roy. Seriously, and you watch it, there's

712
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:38.800
the bad Guys showgun like. Trust
me, I think you're going to appreciate

713
00:52:38.840 --> 00:52:47.039
it. I know what I'm doing
tonight. So do you spend a lot

714
00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:52.199
of time watching movies? When I
do? But when I do, I

715
00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:58.519
try to really lean into that one
movie. I try not to judge whether

716
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.199
this movie is better than that movie. You just you're gonna watch a movie

717
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:05.559
that's like two and a half hours
of your life. I just try to

718
00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:09.480
just really appreciate that movie. And
I used to have this. I don't

719
00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:13.760
think it was a good rule at
all. If I've seen it already,

720
00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:15.599
I'm done. I don't want to
see it again. I already saw it.

721
00:53:16.039 --> 00:53:21.400
But now what I'm realizing is that
second and third watch you're starting to

722
00:53:21.480 --> 00:53:23.400
notice and pick up on things like
now that you got the plot, and

723
00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:27.800
you go back and you just watch
how they build up to it, sometimes

724
00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:30.719
you can respect it more. Sometimes
instead of you because I used to get

725
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:35.079
nervous when you're watching a movie.
I don't want to pay attention too much

726
00:53:35.079 --> 00:53:38.000
of this one character because they may
not be around the whole movie. But

727
00:53:38.239 --> 00:53:42.239
once you go through it once,
then you can go back to the character

728
00:53:42.320 --> 00:53:46.199
development. Why do they make these
flaws decisions or good decisions? So yeah,

729
00:53:46.280 --> 00:53:50.960
multiple times, but I'm a little
bit more patient now. I for

730
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.920
sure had the same problem very early
on. I was like, I don't

731
00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:58.599
need to watch anything again. It's
already ruined if there's a spoiler or a

732
00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:00.559
twist. And I was a prettyularly
a fan of film noir. But I

733
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:06.800
think what broke me was actually rewatching
Futurama, where it's such a high level

734
00:54:06.800 --> 00:54:10.920
of intellect gone into building every single
episode, and the story is so continuous

735
00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:16.920
over the original seven season run that
there are some little jokes that you don't

736
00:54:16.960 --> 00:54:22.199
get. You for sure will never
get that you only know because you know

737
00:54:22.199 --> 00:54:24.679
the later content. And you come
back and there's an episode where someone says,

738
00:54:24.840 --> 00:54:28.079
oh, yeah, that's ridiculous,
that could never happen, but you

739
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:31.280
don't know why that's the case until
later, and I feel like, you

740
00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:35.880
know, you get double entertainment out
of some of your favorite movies though,

741
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:38.639
for sure. But you know,
it's odd though we don't typically do that

742
00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:44.239
with music. We can listen to
the same song over and over and over

743
00:54:44.320 --> 00:54:46.559
again, but movies, for some
reason, we feel like, you know,

744
00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:50.760
maybe if the plot is ruined or
we know how it's going to end,

745
00:54:51.239 --> 00:54:53.559
but we know how songs end,
and we still listen to them again.

746
00:54:54.079 --> 00:54:58.400
And the one thing I'd done on
the music side was listen to it

747
00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:01.480
sometimes with the lyrics, Like on
Apple Music, you can bring up the

748
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:06.639
lyrics and so as you're listening,
you can also read the words. And

749
00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:09.119
sometimes I would just go read the
words without listening to the song, because

750
00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:13.960
number one, I'm not I can't
sing, And it turns out I don't

751
00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:17.119
know the lyrics to the majority of
the songs I listen to, and people

752
00:55:17.119 --> 00:55:19.880
like, you know what that song
is about, right, I'm like,

753
00:55:20.119 --> 00:55:22.719
no, I don't know what that
song's about. And so now I found

754
00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:28.480
it really important to understand what the
artist was thinking at the time, who

755
00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:31.159
the artist is, and riot they
write the song the way that they wrote

756
00:55:31.199 --> 00:55:35.760
it, because it's so important.
It brings so much depth to music,

757
00:55:36.199 --> 00:55:38.719
like In the Air of the Night, Phil Collins, like that song is

758
00:55:38.760 --> 00:55:42.639
super deep. Most people don't really
understand what it's about. But when you

759
00:55:42.719 --> 00:55:45.440
read the lyrics and then your mind
starts to like fill in the gaps,

760
00:55:45.519 --> 00:55:49.280
You're like, oh, this is
a very serious song. And then you

761
00:55:49.360 --> 00:55:52.519
learn the context of the song of
inviting the person to the concert and then

762
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:57.400
singing the song, It's like this
is much deeper. So then it finds

763
00:55:57.400 --> 00:56:00.960
its place in kind of my top
top songs of all time. I see

764
00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:05.800
that there's a huge pattern with how
you approach just whatever you're focusing on,

765
00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:09.840
whether or not it's music, movies, personal life, or professionally. This

766
00:56:09.960 --> 00:56:15.360
idea to really have the discipline to
go really deep in whatever that thing is

767
00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:17.840
that you're working on, not there's
not just one more thing or whatever I'm

768
00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:22.400
doing at this moment, but real
one hundred percent focus probably more on that

769
00:56:22.519 --> 00:56:28.000
area so that you can fully understand
and appreciate whatever that is. And like,

770
00:56:28.199 --> 00:56:30.840
I feel like there's a lot of
aspect where I do that, but

771
00:56:30.880 --> 00:56:35.480
it really does require intentional discipline to
pull that off. It's not something that

772
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:39.400
happens accidentally. I mean, I
think I'm afraid of things I don't understand,

773
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:43.639
you know, what I mean,
like, what does this thing do

774
00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:46.599
and why is it doing it?
And so whenever that question comes up,

775
00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:51.719
I feel like I got to solve
it. You know. It's like when

776
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:54.159
people like I'm one of these people
that if I see a puzzle, it's

777
00:56:54.159 --> 00:56:58.880
over for me. And my mom
knows this, Like I'm forty three years

778
00:56:58.880 --> 00:57:04.000
old. When I go visit,
she has a new puzzle on the table

779
00:57:05.159 --> 00:57:08.039
and she opens the box, puts
it next to it, and there'd be

780
00:57:08.079 --> 00:57:13.480
the pieces scattered out, and I'm
like, oh my god, this must

781
00:57:13.480 --> 00:57:19.480
be solved now, and you're no
way out, say, I gotta do

782
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.519
at these a few pieces before we
leave, and before the trip is over,

783
00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:29.000
I am not satisfied to that puzzle
issaulved. And so my real life

784
00:57:29.039 --> 00:57:32.639
is like this too. It's like
why did someone do this? Why is

785
00:57:32.679 --> 00:57:37.559
the stock its current price? Does
my phone listen to me? If so?

786
00:57:37.719 --> 00:57:42.280
How? Like I just need to
know these things. So it also

787
00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:45.360
keeps me from I think a lot
of stress people have. You're trying to

788
00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:51.920
pay attention to everything and then you
don't know how anything works, and so

789
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:54.760
then you're just you're not really growing
or improving. And these people are very

790
00:57:54.760 --> 00:58:01.519
succeptible to chatter propaganda. They don't
know what's true or what's not because they

791
00:58:01.559 --> 00:58:07.880
don't have time to process, so
everything is just streamed at them, and

792
00:58:07.920 --> 00:58:12.119
then everything just happens to them.
And so I think it's like when you

793
00:58:12.320 --> 00:58:15.840
when you first get into tech and
you log into your first server s A

794
00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:20.280
stage X, Y Z, and
you're in and you're like, oh,

795
00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:23.159
and so you can actually go really
far in your career just run in commands

796
00:58:23.559 --> 00:58:28.119
over and over and it doesn't work. One what do I do here to

797
00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:29.960
say? Run it this way?
And you just run it this way.

798
00:58:29.960 --> 00:58:35.599
You're an operator. But the moment
you write that first shelf script and you

799
00:58:35.639 --> 00:58:39.000
make the other scripts do something different, that's when you feel like, hey,

800
00:58:39.519 --> 00:58:44.559
I'm not just here to be a
consumer or an operator. I can

801
00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:47.400
create stuff too. But the key
though is you have to know how things

802
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:52.239
actually work and then you can rearrange
the pieces. And so when it comes

803
00:58:52.280 --> 00:58:55.199
to anything in life, it's like, hey, you can't learn everything,

804
00:58:55.320 --> 00:58:59.719
Kelsey, Like, you're right,
I'm just saying learn the things you're dealing

805
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:01.920
with in that moment. So if
you're gonna be listening to a song,

806
00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:07.000
just read the lyrics who is the
artist, were they in the band previously?

807
00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:10.199
What other music did they do?
What genre is this? Do you

808
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:14.400
like that genre? Who else is
in this genre? So then it just

809
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:17.320
gives you a chance to go super
deep on this thing that's in front of

810
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:22.840
you. And then hopefully by the
time you're also forty three, you've done

811
00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:27.639
this so many times that it does
feel like you're a knowledgeable person because you've

812
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:30.960
taken the time to go deep.
What do we call these people, We

813
00:59:30.039 --> 00:59:34.800
call them like t shaped engineers.
They have the breath, but the depth

814
00:59:35.440 --> 00:59:37.559
because instead of just like learning a
bunch of things, they went deep.

815
00:59:37.880 --> 00:59:39.960
And so, yeah, it does
take a long time, but when you're

816
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:44.480
done, you have both. Do
you have a favorite genre of music?

817
00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:52.039
I grew up on hip hop?
And the reason why that's so nostalgic.

818
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:57.440
As a kid, good things would
happen in your life right like you would

819
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:00.239
go outside, you would win the
game. You just got a new Nintendo

820
01:00:00.280 --> 01:00:05.800
game for your birthday, So you
remember the song that was playing right like

821
01:00:06.000 --> 01:00:09.079
you're listening to your back of my
day to walk Man, and you played

822
01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:12.280
this game. You had a really
good experience playing the game, and this

823
01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:16.280
is a song you heard first,
and that song at just the memory and

824
01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:21.239
links everything together. And so for
me, that was hip hop. And

825
01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.199
then when I'm reading the lyrics around
hip hop and studying the origins of hip

826
01:00:24.239 --> 01:00:30.239
hop, you think about this group
of people in the earliest forms of that

827
01:00:30.480 --> 01:00:37.239
genre. You can't afford instruments and
creating music from scratch. A lot of

828
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:42.840
people didn't go to school for music
theory and knew how to read or write

829
01:00:42.880 --> 01:00:47.320
sheet music. But what you didn't
know is like what music you like and

830
01:00:47.360 --> 01:00:51.119
what music other people like, and
so what do you do? You take

831
01:00:51.239 --> 01:00:54.599
records and you find the part that
everyone likes. How do you know it's

832
01:00:54.599 --> 01:00:59.960
a good part because you're watching people
dance and when it gets to that break,

833
01:01:00.119 --> 01:01:02.400
you're like, oh, people seem
to like this part. So you

834
01:01:02.440 --> 01:01:07.360
take that part and you loop it. Not with some fancy computer or screen.

835
01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:12.519
You literally got two turntables and you're
marking on the record where the good

836
01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:15.320
part is and you loop it right, and then the next person is like,

837
01:01:15.400 --> 01:01:20.119
yo, I can rhyme over the
top of the good part. But

838
01:01:20.199 --> 01:01:22.079
you just got to keep it going
long enough for me to do this.

839
01:01:23.039 --> 01:01:29.519
And so you just think about how
technical you need to be to produce hip

840
01:01:29.519 --> 01:01:32.719
hop, you can't play any instruments, you can't necessarily read sheet music.

841
01:01:32.760 --> 01:01:36.880
I'm not saying everyone's like that,
there's so many people in this genre then

842
01:01:36.960 --> 01:01:39.880
and now, but to still be
able to create something that has such a

843
01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:45.079
global impact. And also when you
look at the history of a lot of

844
01:01:45.159 --> 01:01:50.440
those people, they're coming from some
really rough environments where there's a lot of

845
01:01:50.519 --> 01:01:54.000
politics, things that are happening to
them, various movements. And for anyone

846
01:01:54.039 --> 01:02:00.000
that writes blog posts, journals,
anything writing is thinking and a lot of

847
01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:05.679
those people when they wrote their rhymes, they were showing you or expressing their

848
01:02:05.760 --> 01:02:08.760
situation. They couldn't get media coverage, they're not on the movies, they're

849
01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:13.760
not on the TV shows. They
got their music, and so hip hop

850
01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:17.239
to me is one of those things
where it documented in my life. You're

851
01:02:17.239 --> 01:02:22.320
hearing other people document theirs, and
it's just one of these genres that resonates

852
01:02:22.360 --> 01:02:24.840
so much. But then the bleeding
and crossover because when I go listen to

853
01:02:24.880 --> 01:02:31.239
other genres of music, the drum
patterns, the rhyme schemes, the collaborations.

854
01:02:31.320 --> 01:02:35.599
Right, So the first time I
remember listening to like other gramas of

855
01:02:35.679 --> 01:02:37.800
music, when I heard, like
a rap artist and an R and B

856
01:02:38.039 --> 01:02:43.199
artist get on a record together,
I'm like, what's that? When I

857
01:02:43.239 --> 01:02:46.679
started to understand where the samples came
from, Oh, what is this disco

858
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:51.920
thing? What is this jazz thing? And so then it just kind of

859
01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:54.559
branched out into these other gramres.
So that's the nucleus for me, but

860
01:02:54.639 --> 01:02:59.400
it branched me into all these other
ones. So I love shade. Sometimes

861
01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:01.840
I just need to be calm and
relaxed, so I'll jump into shade.

862
01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:07.480
I grew up in southern California and
I remember hearing Nirvana teen Spirit for the

863
01:03:07.519 --> 01:03:10.039
first time. Right, I'm all
in my hip hop, but when you

864
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:14.199
hear that song, I don't care
what genre of music you like, that

865
01:03:14.239 --> 01:03:17.480
one's going to jump in. And
then last thing I would say is when

866
01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:22.039
I played guitar hero, I was
never into some of the rock and metal

867
01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:27.199
stuff. I just I never branched
out. But man, playing guitar hero

868
01:03:27.320 --> 01:03:31.920
and you get introduced to all of
these bands, and there's something about paying

869
01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:36.920
attention to a song. I've listened
to rock in the past, but it

870
01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.360
didn't jive. But it just didn't
make sense. But then when you play

871
01:03:39.440 --> 01:03:44.360
guitar hero. You're not reading sheet
music, but you kind of pay attention

872
01:03:44.440 --> 01:03:47.239
to the song so you can play
the notes. And at that moment I

873
01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:52.840
was like this, I can't even
push the color buttons fast enough. How

874
01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:58.760
is Slash doing this in real life? And so then I became respectful of

875
01:03:58.840 --> 01:04:02.000
the instrument and then the people who
could play that way. So yeah,

876
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:06.880
that's been my kind of overtime expanding
into the other genres, but all stuff

877
01:04:06.920 --> 01:04:12.559
with the respect for the instruments and
the artists that write the music that goes

878
01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:15.840
with them right on. Mine was
almost the exact opposite of that, because

879
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:19.559
I had a like, growing up, I heard a lot of country music

880
01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:26.239
and like what's now called classic rock, and then later whenever I started hearing

881
01:04:26.840 --> 01:04:30.800
hip hop, I picked up on
the sampling like wait a minute, that's

882
01:04:30.840 --> 01:04:34.320
a led Zeppelin riff or wait a
minute, that's thirty eight special, which

883
01:04:34.440 --> 01:04:39.360
kind of then just forced me deeper
down to that to see, well,

884
01:04:39.360 --> 01:04:43.360
if they're sampling that, what else
did they sample? You know what,

885
01:04:43.440 --> 01:04:47.280
when run DMC, I forget what
band they collaborated with, Aerosmith Aerosmith,

886
01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:51.000
and you know, I should have
known who Aerosmith was by then, but

887
01:04:51.079 --> 01:04:54.840
I didn't and just see them at
the same time. I was like,

888
01:04:55.079 --> 01:04:58.440
I like the way the sounds,
and when I started listening to Rick Rubin

889
01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:01.320
and how he made music, I
think what made Rick Rubin is so unique.

890
01:05:01.480 --> 01:05:06.159
He brought in those elements into hip
hop and so for a lot of

891
01:05:06.239 --> 01:05:10.639
hip hop artists, that whole brand
of music from def jam in those days,

892
01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:16.840
you were hearing this ultimate collaboration and
crossover for sure. Yeah, Rick

893
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:23.079
Rubin was. He was a very
i don't know if you want to say,

894
01:05:23.119 --> 01:05:27.079
forward thinking, but innovative, like
the way he just listened to music,

895
01:05:27.960 --> 01:05:32.840
and then I think he was very
instrumental in bringing those different genres together

896
01:05:32.920 --> 01:05:38.679
and letting them capitalize on what was
successful from the others and bring it into

897
01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:44.039
their own genre. All Right,
Well, I kind of feel like we

898
01:05:45.079 --> 01:05:50.280
covered a few topics here. You
know what we should cover AI. Oh,

899
01:05:50.400 --> 01:05:54.960
let's talk about AI. I've been
seeing you post a little bit on

900
01:05:55.400 --> 01:06:00.760
X Yeah, so which thinking so
like a lot of you all when I

901
01:06:00.840 --> 01:06:05.039
saw early AI, like the stuff
that's inside of your Google Maps, the

902
01:06:05.079 --> 01:06:09.519
stuff that's been in your Gmail,
the stuff that has been in a lot

903
01:06:09.559 --> 01:06:13.039
of your sensors and cameras and all
of these things. Like you've lived with

904
01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:16.719
this so much so that you don't
even talk about AI anymore, just like

905
01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:21.360
we don't talk about syntax and the
products that get shipped, right, It

906
01:06:21.519 --> 01:06:26.920
just it becomes an ingredient of the
whole. And so this resurgence of large

907
01:06:27.000 --> 01:06:30.599
language models, right, this would
be your chat GPTs, you know,

908
01:06:30.719 --> 01:06:35.119
Lama from meta and these things are
interesting because people are trying to build this

909
01:06:35.239 --> 01:06:41.599
general purpose tool that can interact largely
with the language driven interface. And for

910
01:06:41.679 --> 01:06:45.519
a lot of people they haven't made
the connection on where this fits on the

911
01:06:45.599 --> 01:06:50.519
lineage of AI mL, But it's
the first time that you're seeing something that

912
01:06:50.599 --> 01:06:56.599
looks like you do. Think about
it. When we say prompt engineering,

913
01:06:56.639 --> 01:07:01.480
this idea of asking a thing what
is is my birthday? It doesn't know

914
01:07:01.960 --> 01:07:05.840
because it has no context, doesn't
know who you are. Now you could

915
01:07:05.840 --> 01:07:11.360
say what's my birthday? What is
Kelsey high Tower's birthday? And it's going

916
01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:15.320
to guess from what from whatever it
found on the internet. So that's a

917
01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:19.639
training set. But when you interact
with something like that, it feels a

918
01:07:19.679 --> 01:07:24.480
lot how we interact with each other. I was reading somewhere earlier that it

919
01:07:24.519 --> 01:07:29.519
takes twenty watts of power for your
brain. And your brain, look,

920
01:07:29.559 --> 01:07:33.199
you don't know everything and you can't
memorize everything, so that's your disadvantage.

921
01:07:33.679 --> 01:07:39.559
But your advantage is that you can
generalize human with new problem on twenty wats

922
01:07:39.559 --> 01:07:43.880
of power. You can do with
a room, a building full of the

923
01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:48.119
most expensive GPUs. We're talking killer
wats of power times in number of those

924
01:07:48.199 --> 01:07:54.559
units, right, so you're a
factor of multiples of what you can accomplish.

925
01:07:54.719 --> 01:07:58.159
What's really intelligence and the things we
don't know yet. And so when

926
01:07:58.159 --> 01:08:03.400
I see people look at this new
paradigm, and it's scary because the only

927
01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:10.280
thing we've seen interact this way are
people. And for some reason, we

928
01:08:10.440 --> 01:08:15.159
put people at the highest part of
the hierarchy in the galaxy. Right,

929
01:08:15.359 --> 01:08:18.920
people are at the top, the
most intelligent. They can be dangerous,

930
01:08:18.960 --> 01:08:21.159
they can be safe, they can
be kind, they could be mean,

931
01:08:21.640 --> 01:08:27.760
they can be whatever. And we're
usually only limited by our physical abilities or

932
01:08:27.800 --> 01:08:31.239
the machines we tend to operate,
and you can fill in the gaps.

933
01:08:31.680 --> 01:08:36.960
And so when we say that we're
going to generate a thing that's a void

934
01:08:38.520 --> 01:08:45.039
or void of ethics, reason,
purpose, and give it access to all

935
01:08:45.199 --> 01:08:49.840
the power and let it operate the
same machines. You all get nervous.

936
01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:53.880
So, in simpler terms, if
you're in the DevOps or you write code,

937
01:08:54.239 --> 01:08:59.279
you're thinking to yourself, what do
I do? And at a high

938
01:08:59.319 --> 01:09:02.119
level you kind of get driven the
same way. So one opens a JY

939
01:09:02.199 --> 01:09:08.239
or ticket, I would like X. That's the prompt. You convert that

940
01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:12.680
prompt to the best of your ability. Remember that thing where you can't remember

941
01:09:12.680 --> 01:09:17.119
everything and you haven't seen everything,
or those lms a little different. Usually

942
01:09:17.199 --> 01:09:23.039
they've seen it all, they've seen
every repository on GitHub, and they're not

943
01:09:23.159 --> 01:09:27.600
biased. They don't care if it's
a Ruby or Java. I've seen a

944
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:30.680
lot of people who say I will
never touch anything of written in Java.

945
01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:33.880
Fair enough, that's your preference,
but that's not what that thing does.

946
01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:41.239
This thing learns everything with very little
biased except for the weights we create,

947
01:09:41.880 --> 01:09:45.479
and so those biases become the model. Right. You have a model,

948
01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:49.800
too, and your model tends to
go under invested. Right, So think

949
01:09:49.800 --> 01:09:54.359
about it. When we talk about
like the new version of these llms,

950
01:09:54.880 --> 01:09:58.720
what we get excited about is the
amount of maybe net new training data or

951
01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:03.039
unique training data plus all the work
we put into making the model and adjusting

952
01:10:03.079 --> 01:10:09.680
those little weights like dipswitches to try
to tune that model hopefully towards the correct

953
01:10:09.720 --> 01:10:13.560
answer. Or we're working towards the
truth. So you put a natural language

954
01:10:13.560 --> 01:10:15.920
in front of this truth model.
Hopefully it's truthful. This is what you

955
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:18.199
end up with. Now, Look, they're far away from that. So

956
01:10:18.239 --> 01:10:20.800
this one thing I want you to
take comfort in. What you do on

957
01:10:20.840 --> 01:10:27.079
twenty wats of power is much more
efficient than what that thing does. But

958
01:10:27.159 --> 01:10:30.359
your biases are probably holding you back. So when people think that a LLLM

959
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:34.800
like CHATGPT is going to replace your
job, it could if you think of

960
01:10:34.840 --> 01:10:40.439
your job as simply taking prompts from
others and just doing things. But what

961
01:10:40.600 --> 01:10:45.439
is your job. Your job isn't
to just do what people tell you and

962
01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:48.119
run commands. That's the thing we
were talking about earlier. Your job is

963
01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:53.039
to form a better model of the
world, of your team, of your

964
01:10:53.039 --> 01:10:57.840
company, and your problem space.
See that model is hard to compete with

965
01:10:58.840 --> 01:11:01.840
what you currently have. As long
as you keep tuning that model, you're

966
01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:06.600
going to be hyper competitive. And
then here's the punchline. That thing is

967
01:11:06.720 --> 01:11:13.640
just a tool to compliment your model. That's the trick here. So a

968
01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:17.039
lot of people on DevOps are really
nervous, at least the ones I've talked

969
01:11:17.079 --> 01:11:20.439
to number one, because I don't
think they understand how this thing works.

970
01:11:20.960 --> 01:11:25.399
They haven't really walked through the depths
of what it's good at and what it's

971
01:11:25.399 --> 01:11:28.079
bad at. So there's just a
bit of fear. Remember that thing we

972
01:11:28.119 --> 01:11:31.079
talked about, just the stream of
stuff hating people all the time and things

973
01:11:31.159 --> 01:11:34.560
are just happening to them. So
I really want people to rethink this AI

974
01:11:34.640 --> 01:11:39.359
thing. So when I was growing
up, the last thing you wanted was

975
01:11:39.399 --> 01:11:45.079
the artificial version of anything. The
real version costs more. It was real

976
01:11:45.159 --> 01:11:48.319
for a reason. You're still the
real version, And I want you to

977
01:11:48.399 --> 01:11:53.079
just to think about what the real
version can do. And I guarantee you

978
01:11:53.159 --> 01:11:58.600
it's undertrained. You haven't thought about
walking around with one of the world's most

979
01:11:58.960 --> 01:12:06.119
sophisticated computing devices and also the world's
most efficient computing devices if you thought about

980
01:12:06.159 --> 01:12:11.119
it that way, right, The
same effort that Nvidia puts into the next

981
01:12:11.439 --> 01:12:15.560
GPU release, the same effort open
ai puts into the next model release.

982
01:12:15.119 --> 01:12:24.079
Imagine if you put in a fraction
of that effort to training your model and

983
01:12:24.119 --> 01:12:28.159
then releasing that on your colleagues,
the world, your family, and yourself.

984
01:12:28.600 --> 01:12:30.960
So that's kind of my thoughts on
AI is so important, not because

985
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:34.960
you need to figure out what's the
best model, just remind yourself that you

986
01:12:35.039 --> 01:12:41.000
got one too, and it's also
worth investing in. Right on fair point,

987
01:12:41.680 --> 01:12:45.319
I think, yeah, I think
for me, For me, I've

988
01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:51.039
been using it as almost just like
yeah, a colleague to bounce ideas off

989
01:12:51.079 --> 01:12:57.359
of, you know, whenever I'm
whenever i get the JIRA ticket and I'm

990
01:12:57.439 --> 01:13:00.520
like, oh, I'm thinking about
doing this, you know, I'll use

991
01:13:00.600 --> 01:13:05.079
it as something to balance ideas off
of because it has such a larger set

992
01:13:05.079 --> 01:13:10.640
to work with and see what other
ideas it has for solving that problem that

993
01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:15.399
I hadn't thought of. But I
tend to agree with you that I don't

994
01:13:15.439 --> 01:13:24.239
think it's at a human replacement capability
for most scenarios. I think there are

995
01:13:24.239 --> 01:13:28.000
some where it probably could. But
for me personally, which is all I

996
01:13:28.000 --> 01:13:32.039
can speak to. My job is
to solve problems, and even whenever it

997
01:13:32.119 --> 01:13:38.119
starts solving the problems that I'm currently
tessked with solving, now that just means

998
01:13:38.239 --> 01:13:42.039
I'm free to go find other problems
to solve. And the other thing I

999
01:13:42.119 --> 01:13:45.960
try to think about is a lot
of the tools we have don't have good

1000
01:13:45.279 --> 01:13:48.920
APIs or interfaces of interacting with them. Let's just think about this for a

1001
01:13:48.960 --> 01:13:55.520
second. In the cloud, there
are thousands of resources with thousands of parameters.

1002
01:13:55.800 --> 01:14:00.199
It's impossible to find the right permentation
of those things together. So what

1003
01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:04.439
are we given? Polumi, terraform, puppet, chef antable and these are

1004
01:14:04.479 --> 01:14:10.760
fine, but they're almost one to
one leaking all of those details. They

1005
01:14:10.800 --> 01:14:15.880
just give you a way to express
your choices in their language, but you

1006
01:14:15.960 --> 01:14:19.840
still have to be exposed to all
of this detail. And so that's just

1007
01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:25.039
a very static way of solving problems. It works, you know, we

1008
01:14:25.079 --> 01:14:27.560
solve the problem once we go through
all the pain. We still don't know

1009
01:14:27.560 --> 01:14:30.840
if we're making the right decision,
but we at least will make a decision

1010
01:14:30.119 --> 01:14:35.319
form consensus, and then we write
it down in HBL as say terraform apply.

1011
01:14:35.840 --> 01:14:41.520
Nothing wrong with that, but the
interface is not good. I used

1012
01:14:41.560 --> 01:14:44.439
to work at a cloud provider.
What should the interface be? The interface

1013
01:14:44.439 --> 01:14:49.840
should be I need a database that
can hold this amount of data, and

1014
01:14:49.920 --> 01:14:56.439
I need it in this particular reason
because of these particular compliance laws. And

1015
01:14:56.479 --> 01:14:59.960
I also need a set of credentials
that only let these apps. That's how

1016
01:15:00.039 --> 01:15:02.720
we would think about this. So
imagine I take that and give it to

1017
01:15:02.760 --> 01:15:08.560
the system that's enough information to set
up a VPC in the right zone or

1018
01:15:08.600 --> 01:15:13.239
region with the right set of credentials, lock everything else out, generate the

1019
01:15:13.279 --> 01:15:16.479
IM components, make them available,
and then return back to someone. Your

1020
01:15:16.560 --> 01:15:21.560
database is ready. Here are the
IM accounts that can log in the IP

1021
01:15:21.640 --> 01:15:27.520
addresses over here. You're at this
version and it meets all the compliance things.

1022
01:15:28.680 --> 01:15:31.359
So what does that tell you?
It tells you that the systems that

1023
01:15:31.359 --> 01:15:36.039
we currently target don't have great APIs. And so when I think about what

1024
01:15:36.159 --> 01:15:40.560
L Andm's do, and what fascinates
me the most is they tend to bring

1025
01:15:40.600 --> 01:15:45.439
a much better API to the systems
we interact with, at least in that

1026
01:15:45.479 --> 01:15:49.000
specific domain. And the thing that
made me less scared of what it does

1027
01:15:49.600 --> 01:15:55.680
is the machine that it targets is
still roughly the same, right because it

1028
01:15:55.720 --> 01:16:00.479
takes your prompt and it translates that
into something that it can understand and if

1029
01:16:00.520 --> 01:16:04.199
I can use that word, and
then it still has to manipulate the same

1030
01:16:04.439 --> 01:16:09.880
underlying machine. The cloud provider is
still the same, the low balancer is

1031
01:16:09.880 --> 01:16:14.039
still the same, the config is
still the same. It's just that the

1032
01:16:14.159 --> 01:16:20.319
model for gluing these things together is
refined, or can be refined to the

1033
01:16:20.359 --> 01:16:26.680
point where we can get people a
more natural interface, hence large language models.

1034
01:16:27.000 --> 01:16:29.479
And so that's the part where I'm
like now going back and looking at

1035
01:16:29.479 --> 01:16:32.239
all my tools and saying, man, what would a better API be?

1036
01:16:32.399 --> 01:16:38.119
We've been so locked into it has
to have a RESTful API, get put,

1037
01:16:38.319 --> 01:16:43.239
post delete, Jason object, and
what is that I have to leak

1038
01:16:43.279 --> 01:16:47.279
all the details about how the machine
works versus a high level API. And

1039
01:16:47.319 --> 01:16:50.399
I think that new high level API
the thing we've always been afraid to do

1040
01:16:50.479 --> 01:16:55.960
because of composability. A high level
API, whether it's using a large language

1041
01:16:56.000 --> 01:17:00.239
model or not, you can still
take the same expression and just really combine

1042
01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:02.720
things using the best practice. And
I think that's what a lot of people

1043
01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:06.680
in devov do with our golden paths. Right. If you do things with

1044
01:17:06.760 --> 01:17:12.119
these inputs, we already know how
to wire up a better machine, so

1045
01:17:12.159 --> 01:17:15.079
you don't have to piece it together
yourself. I think a specific example that

1046
01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:20.119
resonates with me on that is least
privileged security with cloud providers, because like

1047
01:17:20.199 --> 01:17:25.640
everyone is like, oh, least
privileged security, least privileged security. But

1048
01:17:25.760 --> 01:17:29.960
every piece of documentation, every being
a relative word, of course, every

1049
01:17:29.960 --> 01:17:36.199
piece of documentation references admin privileges when
implementing it. So you're in this iterative

1050
01:17:36.319 --> 01:17:41.479
loop that lasts for hours of trying
to figure out which permissions you need.

1051
01:17:42.119 --> 01:17:45.239
And I think something like a well
trained LLM, you can tell it which

1052
01:17:45.279 --> 01:17:51.560
permissions you want it to have and
then it returns the im roles that you

1053
01:17:51.640 --> 01:17:58.039
need to implement without spending hours beating
your head against the wall. Yeah,

1054
01:17:58.039 --> 01:18:02.039
we're going to get a So what
MS are teaching me is that when you

1055
01:18:02.079 --> 01:18:05.880
design these systems, you can't design
them in isolation. You have to be

1056
01:18:05.880 --> 01:18:10.760
aware of contexts. And this is
why I think when you say neural nets

1057
01:18:10.760 --> 01:18:14.840
and the network that goes is that
share context that these things have and their

1058
01:18:14.880 --> 01:18:18.079
ability to try things until they find
the perfect combination. But again I can't

1059
01:18:18.119 --> 01:18:23.159
struss enough. A lot of these
systems are tuned, so they're guessing and

1060
01:18:23.199 --> 01:18:27.399
when they're wrong, we can tune
them and then we have a much more

1061
01:18:28.239 --> 01:18:32.800
dynamic, expressive system and framework.
So if you learn anything from this whole

1062
01:18:32.880 --> 01:18:38.600
chapter of Lams and this movement number
one, we can build better systems.

1063
01:18:38.960 --> 01:18:43.920
We can give them better APIs and
interfaces, and it will feel like sky

1064
01:18:44.039 --> 01:18:51.119
nets, even though it won't be. He wants to intentionally scare people.

1065
01:18:51.840 --> 01:18:57.159
I mean, I think a lot
packed in there, realistically. I mean,

1066
01:18:57.199 --> 01:19:01.359
I think there's something very on point
about how we've been developing maybe not

1067
01:19:01.399 --> 01:19:06.199
even an API effectively, but really
the protocol. We're just doing a better

1068
01:19:06.279 --> 01:19:12.720
job exposing what you have access to
and never really sort of abstracted it away

1069
01:19:12.840 --> 01:19:15.520
in a way which actually really makes
sense. Yeah, I think that's a

1070
01:19:15.520 --> 01:19:19.560
really good way of looking at it. It's just an abstraction layer that is

1071
01:19:19.680 --> 01:19:26.960
more suited towards talking to humans than
a rest API is. Well, I

1072
01:19:27.000 --> 01:19:29.439
don't know. I don't know if
I agree with that part. It's sometimes

1073
01:19:29.520 --> 01:19:33.359
very challenging for me to get allance
to spit back out what I'm looking for

1074
01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:38.479
in a reasonable way. I know
other people are much better than myself,

1075
01:19:38.960 --> 01:19:42.920
but there is something challenging about the
natural way in which humans speak and then

1076
01:19:43.239 --> 01:19:47.359
get that converted into what's been seen
on the internet into a relative common form.

1077
01:19:47.840 --> 01:19:49.920
Yeah, we're making progress, you
know, I think that's the way

1078
01:19:49.960 --> 01:19:53.880
I kind of look at it.
We're making progress. Like SQL was a

1079
01:19:54.000 --> 01:19:59.920
huge progress on structured data and how
we get at it and insert it,

1080
01:20:00.399 --> 01:20:02.880
and then trying to do that with
natural language is a little more challenging,

1081
01:20:03.039 --> 01:20:08.560
especially when these things aren't tuned.
But we're making progress and in the highlights

1082
01:20:08.880 --> 01:20:12.399
an area of opportunity. Yeah,
I mean, I think we're right now

1083
01:20:12.439 --> 01:20:15.319
in the sort of map phase where
we're seeing everything it can do, and

1084
01:20:15.640 --> 01:20:21.479
very quickly we're also going to see
the reduced cycle where very specific use cases

1085
01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:27.520
have a much better interface for interacting
with them as we identify what it's optimized

1086
01:20:27.560 --> 01:20:30.840
for. And we've already gone that
far with whether it's good or bad.

1087
01:20:30.920 --> 01:20:34.279
You know, it was still a
question of content generation for words, audio

1088
01:20:34.479 --> 01:20:39.560
and video and images, like we
know that that's a pretty good use case,

1089
01:20:39.560 --> 01:20:43.960
so we've improved the interface. They're
much more on top rather than interacting

1090
01:20:44.000 --> 01:20:48.479
with just text you know what I
want, Like I'm I'm personally less excited

1091
01:20:48.479 --> 01:20:53.199
about the generation. Maybe for things
I can't do, like I can't draw,

1092
01:20:53.319 --> 01:20:56.359
so something that can help me draw, no problem. But for things

1093
01:20:56.399 --> 01:21:00.760
like this where We're talking into these
mics and degrees of background noise, and

1094
01:21:00.800 --> 01:21:05.239
it's hard to get the levels just
perfect. Just like you know how sometimes

1095
01:21:05.279 --> 01:21:09.800
you use a really good plugin or
audio plugin or filter and just makes it

1096
01:21:09.840 --> 01:21:15.840
sound better. Just give everyone MPR
studio level quality from any mic. Right,

1097
01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:19.119
I'm already generating the content. Don't
waste cycles doing that. Just make

1098
01:21:19.159 --> 01:21:24.840
the audio sound perfect, right,
the thing that I've already generated, Just

1099
01:21:24.960 --> 01:21:29.640
make it perfect. So anyone enhancement
is probably what I'm really looking forward to.

1100
01:21:29.960 --> 01:21:32.119
So that's the highest thing on my
radar. I do have a meeting

1101
01:21:32.159 --> 01:21:38.039
in two minutes. I just realized
that for my calendar, so fair enough.

1102
01:21:38.079 --> 01:21:40.760
Thank you so much for your time, man, I really really appreciate

1103
01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:43.760
you taking the time to talk with
us. I've enjoyed it a lot,

1104
01:21:44.680 --> 01:21:47.640
and you are more than welcome to
come back at any point. Would love

1105
01:21:47.680 --> 01:21:50.840
to have you back on Awesome.
Well, thanks for having me. This

1106
01:21:50.880 --> 01:21:56.039
is dope, and I also like
your all interview style and format. As

1107
01:21:56.079 --> 01:22:00.560
you know, the hosts bring out
the best in the particular interview or a

1108
01:22:00.600 --> 01:22:02.600
person being interviewed, So I just
wanted to give a shout out to you

1109
01:22:02.600 --> 01:22:05.840
all. It felt really nice.
Awesome. Thank you, Kelsey, have

1110
01:22:05.880 --> 01:22:10.359
a great day, and thank you
everyone for listening. I hope you all

1111
01:22:10.439 --> 01:22:14.600
enjoyed the episode and we will see
y'all next week.