1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:05,679 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? Become 2 00:00:05,679 --> 00:00:09,839 a patron for just five dollars a month. You get access to a private 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,279 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, 4 00:00:14,279 --> 00:00:18,839 we'll get you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18,879 --> 00:00:24,359 at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey Carlin Richard here. As you 6 00:00:24,399 --> 00:00:29,679 may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences around the 7 00:00:29,679 --> 00:00:35,280 world. NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. Go to Eddcporto 8 00:00:35,399 --> 00:00:40,880 dot com to register and check out the full lineup of conferences at ndcconferences dot 9 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:57,000 com. Hey, guess what it's dot net Rocks. I Carl Franklin, 10 00:00:57,039 --> 00:01:02,679 and I'm Richard Campbell and we are still at the what is it the Developer 11 00:01:03,079 --> 00:01:07,079 Festival in Copenhagen, in Copenhagen, Copenhagen. And I don't know about you, 12 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:11,239 but you've been here longer than I have. You and Stacey were here 13 00:01:11,239 --> 00:01:12,239 for a while. Yeah, we kind of We got it on the weekend, 14 00:01:12,599 --> 00:01:15,959 so we got a chance a little touristing. Yeah, I didn't do 15 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,840 any tourist things. I went. We went up the helsing board to the 16 00:01:18,879 --> 00:01:23,040 castle that supposedly was where Hamlet is set. That is so cool. Yeah, 17 00:01:23,079 --> 00:01:25,799 it's not that big of a big castle will be big enough for a 18 00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:27,439 big whiner to be end up written about by Shakespeare, but you know, 19 00:01:27,599 --> 00:01:32,480 just a whiner. That's funny. And then we took the ferry across to 20 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:34,840 Sweden because that's something you can do. That's cool. I've only taken the 21 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,200 train. Yeah yeah, but they made me put it back, so that's 22 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:45,319 what happened. That happens anyway. Any Telbosto is here, but before we 23 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:49,120 talked to her, we're going to spin the crazy music for better no framework, 24 00:01:49,159 --> 00:01:59,519 Go ahead, all right, man, what do you got? Well, 25 00:01:59,799 --> 00:02:01,560 this came across my desk a little while ago and I thought it was 26 00:02:01,599 --> 00:02:07,879 interesting and I tried it. So the latest Adobe Premiere Pro or Adobe Premiere 27 00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:14,680 for Video Editing has this new workspace for text based editing. Interesting text based 28 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:20,319 editing. So what you do is you have to tell it to transcribe the 29 00:02:20,439 --> 00:02:23,919 videos that come in. And it's great if you just have one person talking, 30 00:02:23,159 --> 00:02:27,960 right, It's not so good if you have multiple audio tracks. And 31 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,159 video tracks that are synced up and stuff. But here's what it does. 32 00:02:30,199 --> 00:02:34,759 It transcribes it, and then you go into this workspace and you see the 33 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,680 sentences on the left, and you can highlight part of the sentence what they 34 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:43,599 said, and it adds that to the timeline. Interesting, so you can 35 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,000 do your cuts and edits and stuff just by highlighting the words. And now 36 00:02:47,039 --> 00:02:52,560 you've got jump cuts where you're just highlighting the stuff that they said that you 37 00:02:52,599 --> 00:02:54,000 want, yeah, and none of the stuff that you don't want. Well 38 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,319 half the time, that's where you're lining up the cut anyways, just as 39 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,400 someone starts speaking the word, right, although I do like the other voice 40 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:05,599 starts speaking, screen fades in afterwards. Yeah, yep, yeah. But 41 00:03:05,599 --> 00:03:07,879 but on theline you can you can mess around with it, for sure. 42 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:12,120 But this is a good way to get stuff on the timeline. My problem 43 00:03:12,199 --> 00:03:15,319 is, you know, when we do videos for my other podcast, it's 44 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,520 great if it's just me, but if there's two people talking, now you've 45 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,479 got two video files, two audio transcripts, and you can't sink them like 46 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:30,439 there's no you. You basically do jump cuts, you know, and then 47 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:34,840 they get out of sync, and now you're screwed. So, like I 48 00:03:34,879 --> 00:03:38,599 said, it's really cool for and I usually don't push you know, commercial 49 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:45,319 products and things products, but but you know, anybody who's doing serious creation, 50 00:03:45,719 --> 00:03:49,240 you know, creator content has the Adobe Suite probably and you know this 51 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:53,039 is just one more tool you can use. Awesome, and it is neat 52 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:54,479 that they are working on things. Yeah, for a long time it was 53 00:03:54,479 --> 00:03:59,520 easy to say Adobe was where good software went to die. Yeah. I 54 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,280 was particularly angry with them about their you know, the pdf thing, right, 55 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:08,400 I mean the Adobe pdf reader is like a virus. Yeah. At 56 00:04:08,439 --> 00:04:11,319 one plague it was a plague and you couldn't get rid of it. And 57 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,240 now you don't need it. Of course there's the browsers to show PDFs. 58 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,720 But but yeah, no, I don't want to subscribe to your thing, 59 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,000 and shut up. I don't need a new update. And they Adobe pdf 60 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:25,560 it's a pdf reader, just stop it. Stop. But let's face it. 61 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,040 You know, Photoshop, Premiere Pro Audition. Yeah, addition, these 62 00:04:30,079 --> 00:04:33,879 are excellent of the best of the best, and hopefully they keep them healthy. 63 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:38,000 Yeah, they grab Figma too, I think I think they did. 64 00:04:38,079 --> 00:04:41,079 Yeah. Yeah, for better or worse. That's it, all right, 65 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:43,240 man, that's cool. Yeah, who's talking to us today, Richard, 66 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,800 I grabbed a calm on top of the show seventeen twenty three, the one 67 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,800 we did back in January twenty twenty one with our friend Tom Kirkhoff when we 68 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,759 were talking about containers and Azure. So naturally we talked about Kupernetes because it's 69 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:59,879 kind of unavoidable, and Karthur kaine Vic had this comedy says they take this 70 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:01,399 is a great show with great insight. I'd like to add my two cents 71 00:05:01,439 --> 00:05:06,680 about when to choose Azure functions versus Kubernetes. I had the same question where 72 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:12,040 I needed to run machine warning workloads and Azure, And of course this is 73 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,759 a couple of years ago, because let's face it, there's a lot of 74 00:05:13,759 --> 00:05:16,879 ways to do machine learning workloads these days. That's changed too, as your 75 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,759 functions have a time out of about ten minutes, and even when you choose 76 00:05:19,759 --> 00:05:25,079 a premium Plummer app service plant has the limitation of not being completely serverless and 77 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,920 a limit of only fifty to two hundred instances at a time. By choosing 78 00:05:28,959 --> 00:05:31,959 Kubernetes, I was able to spend more nodes and also tape the pods to 79 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,240 different high CPU nodes. So I think he's actually assigning them to high end 80 00:05:36,319 --> 00:05:41,279 nodes based on the job without a time up problem. I need at least 81 00:05:41,319 --> 00:05:45,720 five hundred nodes spinning up to five thousand pods to complete the workloads faster. 82 00:05:45,959 --> 00:05:49,439 Wow. Kubernetes is not only completely serverless. When you use the virtual cubulet, 83 00:05:49,759 --> 00:05:54,279 you do need to pay for at least one minimum node and a load 84 00:05:54,319 --> 00:05:57,839 balancer. If you're running on one, you probably shouldn't be us Kubernetes anyway. 85 00:05:57,879 --> 00:06:02,560 The whole point is scale, right. The main point is using Cubernetes, 86 00:06:02,759 --> 00:06:05,959 using Helm you can divine the pods, memory and CPU, which is 87 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:10,759 not possible in the Azure functions for variable work Yeah, and Azure functions tend 88 00:06:10,759 --> 00:06:15,360 to go to sleep and some lucky customers kind of hit the jackpot and have 89 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:17,040 to wait for them to wake up. Yeah, but you know that it 90 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,879 makes the point. Functions is so abstract. You don't get to specify the 91 00:06:21,959 --> 00:06:27,079 performance of a funtion. That's not a thing. Where Kubernatse is that tear 92 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:29,120 down where it's like, oh no, I need you to make this thing 93 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:30,399 with lots of muscle, because when I'm about to check at it's going to 94 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:34,199 take a while more control, palay, So yeah, you trade some complexity 95 00:06:34,639 --> 00:06:39,319 or some control. So Cartha Kenyan, thank you so much for your comment 96 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,079 and a copy of the US Dacoba. It's on its way to you. 97 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,160 And if you'd like a copy of the US Ducobea, I write a comment 98 00:06:43,199 --> 00:06:46,000 on the website at dot net rocks dot com or on the facebooks. We 99 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,000 publish every show there, and if you comment there and a read on the 100 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,600 show, we'll send you copy of music goby and you can follow us on 101 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,480 Twitter or ex or whatever the hell they call it these days. That's fine. 102 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,800 But we're both on Mastodon and I'm on Blue Sky now too, so 103 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:00,720 because I have so many places, you can just go to Carl Franklin dot 104 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,879 com and right there at the top you can see on my social media all 105 00:07:03,879 --> 00:07:09,439 the media is yeah, and you are aware Combrichecampbell at Macedon dot social. 106 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,360 I'm actually pretty much reach Campbell every everywhere. Not hard to find me. 107 00:07:12,439 --> 00:07:15,160 Yeah, oh good, follow us there, Yeah, send us a toot, 108 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,759 send us a tweet, whatever makes you happy. Okay, let me 109 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:27,120 introduce Annie. Annie Talvasto is an international technology speaker, CNCF Ambassador acronym. 110 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,120 What does CNCF stand for Cloud Native Computing Foundation? All right, you're an 111 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:36,040 ambassador there, an Azure MVP and specialist in Kubernetes and open source. Annie 112 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:43,199 hosts and produces the Cloud Gossip podcast and has been a co organizer of Kubernetes 113 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:48,360 and CNCF Finland meetup since twenty seventeen. She has worked at various tech companies, 114 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:54,199 from cloud startups to enterprises, and spoken at tech conferences on multiple continents, 115 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,319 including Kubacan. Do we say cube con Cubcan? I can't remember whatever 116 00:07:59,399 --> 00:08:01,439 you want to say. I usually say cube Con, but I everyone uses 117 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:09,360 different It makes me happy. Con Cloud Native Con, Microsoft, Build and 118 00:08:09,399 --> 00:08:13,120 Ignite, NBC, Casey, DC Global, Azure, Future Tech and more. 119 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,079 During your career, she's spoken to more than thirty thousand developers at user 120 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:20,040 groups, meetings and conferences. Wow, that's a lot of pizza. That's 121 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:24,000 a lot. Actually, there's a lot of Harry it is. It is 122 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,519 a lot more than that. Nowadays, I'm still calculating. At that point, 123 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,000 I was like, whatever, it's something. It becomes a silly number. 124 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,279 Yeah, exactly. So I just got to say this. My my 125 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,639 mother's family comes from the Swedish part of Finland, about the Finish and the 126 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,000 Swedish in me. Yeah, that's cool, that's good. So I'm gonna 127 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:50,679 get borshborshed not jiggy, really, I don't know. Okay, tired, 128 00:08:50,159 --> 00:08:54,519 I'm jet lagged. I have had more coffee than water today and I'm still 129 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,240 tired. There you go. So what are we talking about. We're talking 130 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,159 about kuberneties and we're talking about Tuli, yeah, or just the whole We're 131 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,360 just going to have a conversation about kubernetes. First of all, what do 132 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:07,000 you think of the comment? The comment? I think actually that's at the 133 00:09:07,039 --> 00:09:11,799 gist of like the stuff that I've been thinking about recently, Like there's multiple 134 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:16,200 levels that you can kind of think about communities nowadays. You can obviously think 135 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,840 about it in a very practical terms of like, Okay, what tooling do 136 00:09:18,879 --> 00:09:22,679 you choose right now? Or how should you define or like how should your 137 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,080 teams work? And also obviously on the level of like what are the trends 138 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:31,399 currently within what tools are teams choosing, or what are the different trends in 139 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,240 like how do organizations organize themselves and whatnot. But then there's the other level 140 00:09:35,279 --> 00:09:39,840 of think about communities or like infrastructure management in general, which is like what's 141 00:09:39,879 --> 00:09:43,840 the next thing after cubunites, or you can also usually think about okay, 142 00:09:43,879 --> 00:09:48,320 what was before cubunities, which can usually yeah exactly, and you can then 143 00:09:48,399 --> 00:09:52,679 kind of usually because I think there's really good sayings around like to know the 144 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:54,879 future, you have to know the past or whatnot, so you can think 145 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,720 about those kind of things. And I think the comment is actually at the 146 00:09:58,799 --> 00:10:03,720 really good center of you know, cubunits is essentially right now that have fucked 147 00:10:03,759 --> 00:10:09,399 up way to do infrastructure and scalable exactly. Worried reading this comment not to 148 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:13,240 chuck Karthy Kayan under the bus, but like he run it two years ago 149 00:10:13,799 --> 00:10:18,240 and this is still pretty young tag. Yeah. But also now I think 150 00:10:20,159 --> 00:10:24,919 all the people who were very early on in communities, they're already not moving 151 00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:26,639 on. I don't want to say that there was moving on from cubunities, 152 00:10:26,639 --> 00:10:30,679 it would very much stay. But I think there's going to be another abstraction 153 00:10:30,799 --> 00:10:33,080 level added on top of communities. And as you can see, there's functions, 154 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,320 there's server lists and whatnot. What's likely going to be going kind of 155 00:10:37,519 --> 00:10:43,879 exactly not next, but usually you can see in the past the technology goes 156 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:46,279 from abstraction level to the next construction level and whatnot. And I mean, 157 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:50,320 I know it's about talking to folks inside of Microsoft's like as your functions is 158 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:54,399 runs in containers. Yeah, you don't own those containers. You have no 159 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,960 ability controls it is. But that's how they do it. There's no magic 160 00:10:58,039 --> 00:11:00,879 there. They're just abstracting it away from me. I think there's like an 161 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:07,200 AI version that can control Kubernetes in the future coming, for sure, something 162 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,720 you can just talk to. Yeah, for sure, I would Star Trek 163 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:15,360 Enterprise computer exactly. I think for sure. Obviously it remains to be then 164 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,000 seen what goes mainstream, what's get adopted widely, and what's actually at the 165 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,279 good balance of like okay, as you said, there was the challenges there 166 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,879 around you know, the standardization and then the kind of flexibility to do what 167 00:11:24,919 --> 00:11:28,519 you actually need to do for you your case. So there's going to be 168 00:11:28,519 --> 00:11:31,000 obviously questions around that. But I think I think in general, the next 169 00:11:31,039 --> 00:11:35,639 generation, particularly with this current like AI and Amlovs hype, I think someone's 170 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:43,360 definitely going to go for it. Yeah, five millions exactly. And the 171 00:11:43,399 --> 00:11:46,159 point being you don't need to know that number. Right when I think about 172 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,039 a machine learning model sitting over top of a of a container infrastructure, like 173 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,919 again going back to the comments, Hey, you want this level performance, 174 00:11:54,919 --> 00:12:00,919 so I'm going to tweak the shape of these these containers to prease their performance 175 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,799 and make more of them as necessary. That's getting beyond elasticity and it's some 176 00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:11,440 really intelligent behavior on how to optimize an infrastructure to get to sort of a 177 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:15,919 a contractual deliverables, like we're gonna keep all these transactions under a second, 178 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,759 if that means I have more instance, I have more instance. That means 179 00:12:18,799 --> 00:12:20,759 I use higher levels of compute. I use higher levels of compute if I 180 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,799 can, If I can have a natural language processor that will write my yamal 181 00:12:24,919 --> 00:12:28,799 for me, that's going to be a happy day, because that's going to 182 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:31,360 be a happy thing except for that part where to miss this one indent. 183 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:37,720 I like that. That's really great. And also look at the stratum now 184 00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:43,559 in the past couple of years of the Kubernety services. Yeah, so you're 185 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:46,759 not standing up your own vms to host communities anymore. You kind of got 186 00:12:46,759 --> 00:12:48,960 this pre configured piece. Yeah, very much. So, Yeah, that 187 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:54,240 has been also, I think part of the abstraction journey for communities in general, 188 00:12:54,639 --> 00:12:58,399 because okay, if you want to do playing communities, you know, 189 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,799 go for there's a lot of material, there's books. Community is the hard 190 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:05,720 way, but I think there is it's in there already. Kubernity is the 191 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:09,360 hard way, and you're not you're not saying that casually. Yeah, there 192 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,559 is a hard way to do curriers exactly, So lock yourself out, yeah 193 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:18,159 yeah, yeah, and that is the actual book name. Also then obviously, 194 00:13:18,159 --> 00:13:20,879 like if you want to make your life easier, and also this is 195 00:13:20,919 --> 00:13:26,360 the standard nowadays also is to go with the managed service or managed community's route, 196 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,639 which is usually can take the form or AK S, G E E 197 00:13:30,759 --> 00:13:35,039 S one of these from the hyperscalers or there's obviously a lot of local ones 198 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:39,919 as well as smaller ones, or a combination off you know, managed service 199 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:45,240 with consultancy or service providers then helping you with some of the stuff and whatnot. 200 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,159 Then obviously adding all that ons that you need on top of the managed 201 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:50,840 services and whatnot. But I mean it might might be a bit of a 202 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:56,360 contradiction of terms, but is there an on prem curbunities managed service like they 203 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,480 a set of software tooling just to help you the same way that these managed 204 00:14:00,519 --> 00:14:05,159 services do in the cloud. Well, the usually the premise of all of 205 00:14:05,159 --> 00:14:09,159 these managed services is with like the premise of communities, is that you should 206 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:11,799 be able to use it on prem as well if needs right. I mean 207 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:16,960 that was the whole claim it won so to an extent you should be able 208 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,720 to do it normally. But there are also then kind of add ons and 209 00:14:20,879 --> 00:14:24,840 extra services that you can use there as well. I would say the likely 210 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,320 open shift, for example, has quite a good serving there. Like I 211 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:35,120 work for a company nowadays that we actually somewhat specialize in providing open shifts on 212 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,960 premises, right, which is essentially a version of communities on premises, for 213 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:45,320 example, for highly regulated industries that need the on prem se. That's the 214 00:14:45,399 --> 00:14:48,600 red hat product, yes exactly, okay, but it's cubernatores under the hood. 215 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,879 Yeah, okay. Now that's interesting, and it's just sort of recognizing 216 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,399 that there are ways to approach this. There's different layers of tooling on that. 217 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:01,480 Of course, we immediately associate red hat with Linux stuff, yeah, 218 00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:09,080 but then in general you're making Linux workloads in kubernety containers. Yeah, I 219 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:09,879 know we're supposed to be able to do it with Windows. I just don't 220 00:15:09,879 --> 00:15:16,240 see anybody doing it. Yeah, there's always often it's always to be honest. 221 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:20,639 Uh, it's the word, the sentence that we all know. It 222 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,360 depends. Yeah, well, so like exactly what you need or what's to 223 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:28,679 set up, and what's the kind of mix of services or products that you 224 00:15:28,759 --> 00:15:31,879 need, And it depends on what's the best and what not. But there's 225 00:15:31,919 --> 00:15:33,559 options out there. Yeah, there's no one right way for any of this. 226 00:15:33,799 --> 00:15:39,399 Yeah, I I feel like that the advantage the reason Kubernety sort of 227 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:45,960 won in the orchestration wars I Air quoted that because we had DCOs and mesosphere 228 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,200 and like some of these other things was the ecosystem. Yeah, And I 229 00:15:50,279 --> 00:15:52,600 wonder if that's just like it got to a critical mass, it was now 230 00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:54,720 worthwhile to build better tools around it. It just became easier. Though, 231 00:15:56,039 --> 00:16:00,840 I would argue when Azure and Amazon made Kubernator services and it's like, and 232 00:16:00,879 --> 00:16:03,759 of course GCP was there first, It's like, okay, well game over. 233 00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:08,240 Ye You'll think maybe because the people at Google are freaking smart, smarter 234 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,240 than the other people and made a better product. I mean nominally that guy 235 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:18,120 is Brendan Burns, who these days works for Microsoft right, and the last 236 00:16:18,159 --> 00:16:21,840 conversations we had with him, he's kind of thinking beyond containers too, Like 237 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:26,519 that's a smart guy. He's always thinking about the next letter of problems. 238 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:30,759 That's where they're early on the folks at the moment. Yeah, but there 239 00:16:30,799 --> 00:16:34,440 is honestly a lot to do with the current set of tooling on what planning 240 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,120 communities as well, obviously because as kind of mentioned here already, it is 241 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,559 the way the containers are managed at scale, So there's a lot of things 242 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:48,799 to consider there as well. For sure, what's your usual set of tools 243 00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:51,799 if you're setting up at kuberness It's like, I mean I can think of 244 00:16:51,879 --> 00:16:56,120 Helm, yeah, but I know there's dozens. Well that's always depends again 245 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,960 as well. Yeah, it's a bit of a bomber to keep repeating it, 246 00:17:00,279 --> 00:17:03,399 but truly I think, well, Helm is I think a really good 247 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,039 place to start always. I think nowadays if you are moving into community circles, 248 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:15,160 Helm and communities are quite often like inseparable, like you kind of don't 249 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,839 do any any more than you then you develop in dot net without using new 250 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,279 get right, like it's the package manager. You use a package manager, 251 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:26,400 your life will be better exactly. But there was like a few like I've 252 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,319 just two part in like a quick interview, like you know, on these 253 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,160 kind of rapid fire questions. And then someone did like within that interview sets 254 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:37,480 it that you know, they wanted to sunset Helm and I was like, 255 00:17:37,519 --> 00:17:40,480 oh, I need to like find out more, like what's what's the reasoning 256 00:17:40,519 --> 00:17:42,960 here? But but there's always some hot takes and whatnot. So who knows 257 00:17:44,079 --> 00:17:47,519 why? Yeah, because there's another one of those things that's got the network 258 00:17:47,599 --> 00:17:51,000 effect, like the fact that the package is all route through Helm, Like 259 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:52,880 why would you try to disrupt that? That's a hard thing to get into 260 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:56,519 place in the first place. Yeah, And I guess there's usually like there's 261 00:17:56,559 --> 00:18:00,079 new services and there's like if you look at the CNCF offering but not the 262 00:18:00,079 --> 00:18:04,119 SENF. The foundation has like a lot of projects, open source project underneath 263 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,720 this umbrella, right there is pretty much like if there's one way to do 264 00:18:07,759 --> 00:18:11,240 something, there's definitely another project to do a bit in a bit of a 265 00:18:11,279 --> 00:18:15,559 different way. Like there's gazillion ways, and there's stuff that that divides opinion 266 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,640 that that for some cases it's really good in some cases, then some people 267 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,799 find it lacking and whatnot, like cross Plane and whatnot. So there's a 268 00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:26,720 lot of things you can choose from. So I would say that likely, 269 00:18:26,839 --> 00:18:30,359 yes, yes, I would say if you're starting your communities journey or midway 270 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,599 point, Helm is probably a really good companion and good package management. But 271 00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:40,720 likely there's also a said before it depends, there's probably something else somewhere that 272 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:44,839 may be really good for your specific scenarios and whatnot. Where do your tools 273 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,759 like Terraform and Polomi come into play with Kubernetes, Yeah, well they are 274 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:53,000 infrastructure's code which has done a bit of a different thing. Well not, 275 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,880 you can kind of use it in companion with kubunities. But if you are 276 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:06,319 looking for as a code like project writer product that is more communities focused, 277 00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:11,599 then you would go with cross Plane likely, which is a project Yes, 278 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,599 yes, yes, it's by a bound if I remember correctly. Yeah, 279 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,920 cool, and so it does does what those things do, but it's more 280 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,599 Kubernates focus exactly. Yeah, well that's cool, rather than go out to 281 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,559 another I mean there isn't a Kuminators plug in for Terraform, So I mean 282 00:19:27,599 --> 00:19:30,640 if you're used to working terraform and you're moving into cumuinators the plug it means 283 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,000 you don't have to change. But again there's all this whole. If you're 284 00:19:34,039 --> 00:19:38,680 starting from scratch, why would you do that when there's more cumunaty centric tool 285 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,480 in front. That's all a command line anyway, right, you know one 286 00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:48,680 you know, and cross plane is relatively new, and you know there's nothing 287 00:19:48,759 --> 00:19:53,400 bad with new tooling and there's nothing inherently like unsecure or whatnot. But that 288 00:19:53,519 --> 00:19:57,000 is always the terraform is more of a standard, so that's always. Then 289 00:19:57,039 --> 00:20:03,519 you have to consider these things if you are making infrastructure traces. But I 290 00:20:03,559 --> 00:20:06,960 think, I think if I remember correctly, don't quote me on it too 291 00:20:07,079 --> 00:20:11,480 much, but a thing cross plane is incubating level at CNCF. So CNCF 292 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:15,519 has different levels for project materity. They're incubating, which means that they are 293 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:21,519 not graduated, so not fully fully you know, full fledged for every scenario 294 00:20:21,599 --> 00:20:26,279 in production, but likely at the incubating level you're quite safe and good to 295 00:20:26,279 --> 00:20:29,319 go on in the CNCF. In June of twenty twenty, it is in 296 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:33,559 the incubating levels. Yes, you called it correct, And what does that 297 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,559 mean to be an incubating level. So projects if well, they can start 298 00:20:37,559 --> 00:20:41,279 at any level. Obviously they come outside the foundation, but the life cycle. 299 00:20:41,319 --> 00:20:45,319 If someone were to start a new project, they would probably you know, 300 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,880 start at first and have some level of idea and traction or like you 301 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,920 know, something out there, then they would probably join in the sandbox level, 302 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,079 which is like that that's your intro exactly. We just figured out what 303 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:57,920 we want to be when we grow up. So there's a lot of sandbox 304 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:03,720 project nowadays. I think last time I checked, probably talking like seventy or 305 00:21:03,759 --> 00:21:07,319 so, and that's a tier that got introduced few years ago, so it 306 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,799 didn't exist originally. But that's essentially like if the sandbox name kind of tells 307 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,559 some part of that. It's like a place to try out new things. 308 00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:18,640 Some of them will become big, some of them will maybe a trickle down 309 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,319 and die and whatnot. But there's a thing you need to get some scratchy 310 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,960 things in delicate areas. Be careful. Yes, it's like a playground, 311 00:21:26,039 --> 00:21:29,200 yeah exactly, so your experiment. Yeah, yeah, you can try out 312 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,000 new things. It's more kind of you know, you have to do a 313 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,000 more due diligence yourself if you want to take something into production. Likely, 314 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,359 but you know there's a good stuff there. But incubating is a little more 315 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:41,200 sure. Then you get actual a little bit more because when you move between 316 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,920 the levels, there's you know, security checks, architecture, there's requirements for 317 00:21:45,039 --> 00:21:49,119 having processes within the project so that you know every like scenario for example, 318 00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:55,440 if maintainers become unavailable and whatnot, like what's the contingency plans for everything, 319 00:21:56,000 --> 00:22:00,519 as well as like the development team's middle more maturity. Yeah I have more 320 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:04,240 than one person accepting pull request, yes exactly. Yeah, I'm on vacation, 321 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,599 no coaching, yeah yeah, yeah exactly. And also there's like in 322 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:15,160 that vein there's a like requirement for how many maintainers and whatnot or like different 323 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,720 companies so that it's not like a one vendor only, yeah exactly. So 324 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:25,200 then you move to the incubating phase, which is just like checks around these 325 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:26,799 topics. So that's why you can know that, Okay, likely it's gone 326 00:22:26,839 --> 00:22:30,799 through security checks and whatnot. And then when you move to the graduated phase, 327 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,119 which is and I think there's an incubating level. Again, I don't 328 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,799 remember exact numbers, but like, let's say twenty thirty usually or something max. 329 00:22:38,839 --> 00:22:44,039 It's much more smaller than the sandbox level. But then when you move 330 00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:48,240 to the graduated level a few years ago on then it was only cubaneites, 331 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,799 for example, and they graduated level. Now we're talking maybe ten to fifteen 332 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,240 twenty. Even if if there's been a lot of graduating greater cater graduated recently, 333 00:22:57,279 --> 00:23:00,559 so there's nowadays. It's kind of picking of speed. But this is 334 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:07,000 also a sign of communities maturing. Twenty five projects now and oh so many 335 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,240 graduated and the ones you recognize harbor and hell yeah that's the big ones. 336 00:23:11,319 --> 00:23:15,240 Yeah yeah, so yeah exactly, So I need to catch up my numbers. 337 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,720 I think I last checked them like half a year ago. So you 338 00:23:18,759 --> 00:23:22,400 know, it's moving quite fast nowadays, honestly. But it is. The 339 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,799 scene is maturing, It is widespread adoption. So it just means that all 340 00:23:27,839 --> 00:23:30,880 the tooling is really getting mature as well. So yeah, the graduated projects 341 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,359 are your lowest risk. Yeah exactly, this is mature software. Go ahead 342 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,599 and use it. I mean, I don't know that'd be all that shy 343 00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:40,680 about incubated software either, Like there's already people out there working on it. 344 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:45,400 Like that's for sure, that's pretty interesting. It's nice to see that the 345 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,759 scene and CF has gotten so sophisticated in how to manage an ecosystem, how 346 00:23:48,759 --> 00:23:53,079 to grow it and move it forward. So the places people have a way 347 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:59,079 to have confidence easy without being experts exactly. And I think it's really good 348 00:23:59,079 --> 00:24:04,079 because for example, for Keta, I don't know, like remember the except 349 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:07,839 timeline, but it took them a while. Like if you go from incubating 350 00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:11,480 the graduate it might take like half a year to a year or or something 351 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,279 because it is extensive, like you need to go through the checks and you 352 00:24:17,319 --> 00:24:18,640 need to pass and you need to really kind of get through it all. 353 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,000 So if you if you are looking at projects and they are at the graduated 354 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:25,759 level and say here they like you know, you can trust them. You 355 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,559 know that things are being thought off and whatnot, and like communities was the 356 00:24:30,559 --> 00:24:33,240 first one to go to graduated and think there's you know, things like from 357 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,240 ethis Opah like whatnots at Helm Shelly as well, and well I have another 358 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:40,440 question, but I think it's about time for a break, so we'll be 359 00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:44,599 right back after these very important messages. Hey Carl, here we have some 360 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,880 news from our sponsor, text Control. They just released version thirty two. 361 00:24:48,039 --> 00:24:52,720 Can you believe it? 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I'm listening to Dot 369 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,680 rocks on, Carl Franklin, A Richard cavill and So I have a question 370 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,319 for you. So you're with a customer and they're interested in Kubernetes, and 371 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:48,559 you know, obviously the first thing you do is you find out if it's 372 00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:51,680 a good fit for what they want to do. So what are the typical 373 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,440 you know, what's your benchmark, what's your like? You know, what 374 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:56,880 is it that you want to do? Like how big do you need to 375 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,400 scale? What are the questions that you ask to determine whether Kuberneti, kubernetes 376 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,720 and containers in general might be overkilled for this company, that's a good question 377 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:15,319 usually, so there might be a good number out there, but again it 378 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:19,799 depends. I'm getting back to that all the time. But also usually if 379 00:26:19,799 --> 00:26:22,640 it's at a certain scale, then it's good to go. What if they 380 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,319 say, we have one hundred customers now, but we're going to have ten 381 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:32,559 million customers next year by our you know, analysis or whatever, and you 382 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:36,119 know, do you what do you say? Then? Well, if they 383 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,839 want to invest the resources and they want to go for it, I don't 384 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,799 see an issue with it either, Like if they want to and if they're 385 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,559 you know, I don't know, profit calculations for managing their infrastructure, tea 386 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,240 team and the time they can spend on it and productivity and whatnot all matches. 387 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,720 I think it's fine. And to be honest, there's like there's levels 388 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:59,200 to it. And I don't do customer facing work on a daily basis nowadays, 389 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:03,359 so I don't know. I can't give you a customer example out of 390 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,200 the top of my head right now, but I did recently speak with the 391 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,119 startup who was about twenty people, thirty people, still so relatively stealth, 392 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:17,720 so very early on, even in the cryptocurrency field, so very early on 393 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:22,640 whatnot. And they actually had so I didn't speak with the CTO themselves. 394 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,440 It was just like, actually I think it was but anyhow, he didn't 395 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,440 have all the answers to my questions because I got very interested because he said 396 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,039 they're running playing cubunities and I was like, that's funky, like why would 397 00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:37,440 you do that in this day and age? But for them, apparently it 398 00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:45,359 had provided a really good set of environments and tooling because they wanted to stay 399 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,359 as like bend Cloud and vend are Lucky neutral as possible, and they wanted 400 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,160 to do like switching between the clouds and whatnot. And I was kind of 401 00:27:53,200 --> 00:28:00,279 thinking, this sounds interesting. But if it works for them, hey works 402 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:03,279 for them. You know, I've talked to lots of folks who think they 403 00:28:03,319 --> 00:28:07,880 want to be cloud independent but never actually do it, and even when they 404 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,440 try, it's it's way harder than you think it's hard, and it's expensive 405 00:28:11,559 --> 00:28:15,720 and value. Yeah, you're trying to predict the future that may or may 406 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,720 not. My automatical reaction when you say, oh, we went with bare 407 00:28:19,839 --> 00:28:26,400 metal Kubernetes is so you had a person who knew their way around that or 408 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,240 wanted to know their way around it, and that's the real reason you went 409 00:28:29,319 --> 00:28:30,680 that direction. Like in the enda, I think it does come down to 410 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,359 individuals and what they want to work in. I don't know that why anybody 411 00:28:34,599 --> 00:28:41,920 picks a container strategy up front. It's more of a we've gotten the shape 412 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,799 of the software. Now we're looking at the implementation. And this is really 413 00:28:45,839 --> 00:28:52,960 an implementation detail like to be elastic, and it's really to control cost that 414 00:28:52,039 --> 00:28:56,119 I'm only when I'm only going to scale when it's going to make me more 415 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,000 money, and I'm going to wind it down when I'm not, which pretty 416 00:28:59,039 --> 00:29:02,880 much means I have a cloud vendor. Yeah, because if I own the 417 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,119 hard work, it's already paid for. What am I caring about the additional 418 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,640 electricity consumption of a deal? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. So we talked 419 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:17,720 about this lately on dot net Rocks with various other guests about you know, 420 00:29:17,839 --> 00:29:22,640 over architecture. You know, if a company is just starting out and they 421 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,240 have delusions of grandeur or or maybe wishes or desires, you know, in 422 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,079 the perfect world, we're going to scale so big, so we better start 423 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,720 right now with you know, with with this thing. But if you build 424 00:29:33,759 --> 00:29:38,599 your applications in such a way that things are separated anyway, you know, 425 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:45,119 whether it's even by DLL or by service or by just sections of your application 426 00:29:45,599 --> 00:29:48,599 that you can carve off when you need to, you know, maybe that's 427 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,359 the time to think about Oh yeah, oh definitely. And I think it's 428 00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:56,640 honestly, I'm here saying, oh, go for it if you want, 429 00:29:56,720 --> 00:30:00,880 and you have to watchet and whatnot. But truly, I think then one 430 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,880 of the number one things to keep in mind is not to over engineer, 431 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:11,319 not to overextend, to keep things as simple as possible, for like, 432 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,359 well, not as long as possible, because whenever you add a new add 433 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:18,160 on, a new CNC of project and you whatever, you're adding another level 434 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,880 of dependency. And then, particularly in these days when you really do have 435 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,440 to consider security, that's always another thing to check up on, that's always 436 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:33,279 another thing to think about. So I would advise always to stay cautious in 437 00:30:33,359 --> 00:30:37,119 that way that like, actually have a thing before you add on something. 438 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,279 And I think that's a big part of it. And so I go around 439 00:30:41,359 --> 00:30:45,079 conferences talking about like a lot of different CNC of projects. So I'm the 440 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:48,880 person who's like, ooh, kit is falco that hell this, try out 441 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:55,599 everything, but truly don't do all the things, like do the things that 442 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,799 matter to you, what makes sense for you. And architecture is the place 443 00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:02,079 to start, right. You know, you keep everything in silos and loosely 444 00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:07,160 coupled, then it's easy to chip things away and move things apart exactly exactly 445 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,160 yeah, and you don't, Yeah, then you can afford to be wrong 446 00:31:10,279 --> 00:31:12,640 too. We spend a week tinker with Kuberneties to try and deal with a 447 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,720 couple of these issues, and you know, did work force are didn't it? 448 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,039 It was another way to go about it. Can I peel some this 449 00:31:18,079 --> 00:31:22,799 code out running in lambda's or as vazure functions? And how do we feel 450 00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:29,039 about that? Right? There's just a we all these discussions we've had about 451 00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:33,640 architectures, but really architectures should give you choice, yes, that flexible, 452 00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:37,039 yeah, and that you don't have to predict the future and you don't have 453 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,079 to guess how things are going to go, that you can respond to your 454 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,640 business demand right and just move things as you need to move them. It 455 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,000 doesn't We're not telling you, hey, you know you're you're delusional if you 456 00:31:49,119 --> 00:31:52,319 think you're going to be successful and not saying that, you're just saying that, 457 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,440 you know, you don't have to spend the money up front if you 458 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,759 don't need to, and if you are successful, great, If you architect 459 00:31:59,799 --> 00:32:02,000 things correctly, you'll be able to be able to switch when you need the 460 00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:07,480 scale exactly. And it is also about, you know, don't think about 461 00:32:07,759 --> 00:32:13,519 tooling that you need. Think about what processes do you need or do you 462 00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:17,319 have already, and what is your architecture and what is your application and everything, 463 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,799 and then fit the tooling to that, not the other way around, 464 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,359 right, which I think is such an easy thing to say and like it 465 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,960 makes sense, but it is tendency. I think a technical feel to be 466 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:30,799 like, oh, that's the cool new thing. I want that, let's 467 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:34,160 do that whatever it is which is you know, I get that that's cool. 468 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,559 As I said, I'm the person who's excited about all the new things. 469 00:32:37,039 --> 00:32:38,920 I'm advocating for them. But it is also you know, you should 470 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:43,960 start with your needs, your processes, your team. Sure. Absolutely, 471 00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:49,359 I do feel like there was a period here where people will kubern eating because 472 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:52,079 it had a good name, like they got over excited with so we will 473 00:32:52,079 --> 00:32:55,079 cover it aading all things, and then got in there and went, oh, 474 00:32:55,119 --> 00:33:02,319 this isn't a free exactly a bit too complex. And it's why I'm 475 00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:06,400 really starting to feel more and more as I'm talking to folks who are working 476 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,480 with this stuff, It's like you'll know you'll need it when you need it, 477 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,799 right when you have that problem of how do I scale this way? 478 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,400 Why are we strangling, you know, struggling at this point? And you 479 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,559 know, I'm watching them logs and we're getting more more transactions and they start 480 00:33:20,599 --> 00:33:22,759 to fall off and I turn up the knobs on the cloud and it ain't 481 00:33:22,799 --> 00:33:29,880 handling, it's stuck. And now that's that architectural conversation. And do pull 482 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:35,759 things around and be able to scale them differently exactly exactly? Are there other 483 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,519 tool space we talked about about the package management side, you know, how 484 00:33:40,519 --> 00:33:44,720 do you set up that elasticity? Well, like I always worry about the 485 00:33:44,759 --> 00:33:50,720 administrative overhead of these systems of automating the scale and being able to see we 486 00:33:50,799 --> 00:33:54,200 aren't impacting our customers badly, like that we can see that the system is 487 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,799 scaling up and scaling down to maintain a level of performance for the users. 488 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,039 Well, there's a well there's a lot of tooling that you could use from 489 00:34:02,079 --> 00:34:06,400 from CNCA for example or whatnot, which is usually quite a lot of them 490 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,440 are like you know, the fact that you use with communities, but there's 491 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:13,079 a lot outside of the foundation as well, And obviously, like after you 492 00:34:13,119 --> 00:34:15,760 maybe have package management, you have to think about monitoring, right. So 493 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:21,239 Prometheus for example, is classic there with like Rapana and whatnot, which is 494 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,519 a big one as well. And I think it's also actually really important to 495 00:34:23,599 --> 00:34:29,559 keep the classics in mind because as project mature, they might lose some of 496 00:34:29,599 --> 00:34:35,079 the like the cool factor in that way, but they still are the backbone 497 00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:39,760 of of all of these infrastructure teams and whatnot. I found that monitoring is 498 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,079 where you want to innovate anyway, Like you know what you want from a 499 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:49,000 monitor, show me the stuff that's important, right, yeah, don't you 500 00:34:49,039 --> 00:34:52,400 know. Prometheus has good templates for pulling the information it's going to be important, 501 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:58,039 and Grafana has excellent dashboards for surfacing that information where you could look at 502 00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:00,920 it right away and go are you pay attention to this or everything's fine? 503 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:05,400 Exactly exactly, Yeah, It's very funny that just like where do you want 504 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,239 to innovate? What do you what do you need fancy new software? Like 505 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:15,920 is there a possibility that a dashboard is going to make a difference beyond just 506 00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:21,039 having a dashboard? Yeah, exactly, And particularly in the open source community, 507 00:35:21,159 --> 00:35:23,119 always try to kind of sneak in and remind of like if you are, 508 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,519 for example, happily using from Ethio's helm and whatnot, you're thinking, 509 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,920 oh, it's such a big project, so it's all good, it's open 510 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,760 source, it's are running. But actually some of the big projects might be 511 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,440 the ones that need maintainers or contributions as well, because as I said, 512 00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:40,599 like if it's no longer the like the new cool kit on the blog, 513 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:49,480 you might actually need a bit like more attention and sometimes sometimes to get contributions 514 00:35:49,559 --> 00:35:52,960 because also there's a lot of users, there's a lot of organizations tapping into 515 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,000 it, so you also have a lot of help, require support and whatnot 516 00:35:58,039 --> 00:36:01,400 needed as well as new future requests and everything. Then actually contributing to the 517 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,159 old projects is super crucial as well to keep them up and running and keeping 518 00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:10,159 them viral and healthy. They are important. Yeah, I mean another recurring 519 00:36:10,159 --> 00:36:16,519 conversation for us is healthy open source community. And I mean obviously the founder 520 00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:21,280 the Cloud Foundation has this financial model integrated into it. If you're in that, 521 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,920 in that system of incubating and so forth, there is compensation in there. 522 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,719 Where are they getting their money from? Like, how is that working? 523 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,920 I don't know how the foundation well, I don't have the full list 524 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:36,880 of sources for their running. But truly I would say that likely membership fees 525 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,360 are probably a big part of it. Yeah, a big chunk of it, 526 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,199 because there is If you look at the CNCF page for members it's a 527 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,599 long list. It is a healthy list of really big companies, and when 528 00:36:47,639 --> 00:36:52,239 you get to the big level of sponsorships, it's it's also going to cost 529 00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,159 you, Yeah, exactly. It also makes sense if you're a bigger company 530 00:36:55,199 --> 00:37:00,119 and you have bigger pockets and you're actually using a chunk of this offare or 531 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,199 that the foundation has, it makes sense to contribute back to it financially, 532 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,519 well, financially as well as resource. Yeah, exactly. It's always good 533 00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:12,559 to contribute in some way. And I would hope that sort of midband companies 534 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:16,159 to get into the habit of hey, you depend on the software support it 535 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:22,880 exactly exactly some useful way it is. I mean the real question is do 536 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,199 you do you allocate dev resources or just send money? Both both are reasonable 537 00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:30,559 because I mean the upside of the allocated dev resources is I want this feature. 538 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,920 Yeah, yeah, let's go build it and contribute to the project exactly. 539 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,840 And the most recent conversations are like generally when a now todays talk with 540 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:44,199 maintainers, actually the thing that they usually ask for likely is financial investment in 541 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:49,159 terms of our investments and dev resources. Right, so you know, if 542 00:37:49,199 --> 00:37:52,719 you are a big user of a project, hire someone to just contribute to 543 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:55,760 the project for example. Interesting, right, yeah, because yeah, because 544 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:01,639 then you are using financial resources to provide those crucial development hours, contributions, 545 00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:05,519 features and whatnot. Because also you are likely if you are a big user 546 00:38:05,559 --> 00:38:07,199 of the project, you're likely also going to be the one who's asking for 547 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,840 new features, pressing the edges exactly. So then you can actually be like, 548 00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,559 hey, I'll get this person working on this so that we can actually 549 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:20,320 get these features as well. And that is that is an existing model that 550 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,039 people use also within the cop nating ecosystem. Yeah, it's always money involved, 551 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,159 exactly. You've got to pay your people one way or the other exactly 552 00:38:27,159 --> 00:38:30,320 whatever they may be working on, and it it's cheaper to pay someone to 553 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,320 contribute to a Kubernates tool than it is to write that tool yourself. Yeah, 554 00:38:34,639 --> 00:38:38,079 exact, indeed. Yeah, it's a good it's a good mix either 555 00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:40,679 way. It's fun talking with them, though. I know if you feel 556 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,960 like a lot of people who do this and it's like you ask them like, 557 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,559 oh, what do you do and they're like, oh, I work 558 00:38:45,599 --> 00:38:49,199 for this company, but actually I only do contributions to this open source project. 559 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,440 So like you know, you pil can choose which one I like work 560 00:38:51,519 --> 00:38:55,440 for per se quote unquote. But you know I have that problem. People 561 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,199 say what do you do? I say, how much time do you have? 562 00:38:59,519 --> 00:39:06,719 You mean want to I do for money? Yeah? It's yeah, 563 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:12,199 workforce versus work on right, right, both both are very reasonable. I 564 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,320 just don't know what I want to be when I grow up. That's the 565 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:21,880 problem. I start now, that's not what's that about. I'm not starting 566 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:28,400 that now. That's not a good idea at all. That's ridiculous. We 567 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,360 haven't talked about security at all. I don't even know if I want to. 568 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,960 Yeah, yeah, well anytime that you take a piece of your monolith 569 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:43,159 and split it off into another service, you have to think about security. 570 00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:49,519 Yeah. Yeah, you may have maybe using the same authentication methods that you're 571 00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:53,079 using on your monolith, but oftentimes you're not. So yeah, And there's 572 00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:58,239 a lot of good tooling that you can snap from the cn CF landscape there 573 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,559 as well, like both not the new ones per se. It's always a 574 00:40:00,559 --> 00:40:04,519 bit of like is it a new one or not, because some people Cubernites 575 00:40:04,599 --> 00:40:06,800 is new and for some people you're know, not the Sandford project, like, 576 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,480 oh it's old news, right, But there's Falco for example, which 577 00:40:10,559 --> 00:40:14,320 is real time threat detection that you can use as well, and whatnot. 578 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,360 So there's a lot of things you can plug into from the I don't but 579 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,440 again, as I stress, actually use the ones that make sense for you. 580 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,639 But within my session I will do like here in this event, for 581 00:40:25,639 --> 00:40:28,559 example, we'll do a bit of at all, go and what not. 582 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,280 So I do and oftentimes the cloud platform, like if you're using functions, 583 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:37,320 dictates what kind of yeah, mechanism you're going to use. But you know, 584 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,440 of course, if you have your containers and use whatever you want exactly 585 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,119 exactly another reason you might go that way, right, I have specific security 586 00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:45,960 constraints, and yeah, the automatic stuff is not going to do it for 587 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:50,920 you, so it just gives you more choice exactly. I'll include a link 588 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,199 to foll code looks interesting. So we've talked about security enough, we can 589 00:40:53,239 --> 00:41:00,119 move on. You talk about security. We always look security. It's our 590 00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:07,719 favorite developers love security. Yeah, well, some constraints have fun. I 591 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,239 mean, there's no way to work in containers where you don't have security rules 592 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,519 already in place. Like there's just the name we talked about this whole shifting 593 00:41:15,599 --> 00:41:19,280 left of the security side. It's like these are the tools that shift you 594 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,639 left. You're using it no matter what, so you mightage to you know, 595 00:41:22,639 --> 00:41:24,960 get comfortable with it and you don't have to retrofit it either. Yeah. 596 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,719 And actually recently heard like a good anecdote and I think it's probably very 597 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,599 well known one for security and for example for policy management, which is you 598 00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:37,599 know, a great key bowner as well from CNCF for policy management and security 599 00:41:37,639 --> 00:41:44,519 on that fund. So as you kind of hear like you don't have to 600 00:41:44,519 --> 00:41:47,000 think about security or policy management as you know the bombers who are going to 601 00:41:47,079 --> 00:41:50,679 you know, come and limit you. You can think about them as guardrails. 602 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,639 That works, like if you're driving in a steep cliffy area, for 603 00:41:53,679 --> 00:41:58,280 example, they're the guardrails that actually stop you from going over the hill. 604 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,639 But I'm going over the cliff. So you can actually go faster if you 605 00:42:00,679 --> 00:42:05,239 have good guard rails that are well thought of in place, so that then 606 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:07,840 you can you know, speed as much as well, not as much as 607 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,239 you want, but like a bit faster because you don't have to worry about 608 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:15,239 things so much. Are you're driving by braille, just bounce along that guard 609 00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:19,880 exactly, But like you know, you can use them as the guidelines, 610 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,880 the guard lines, so that you can actually kind of well, you know, 611 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,320 you speak to the right thing, which is what I'm doing is keeping 612 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,960 you from being the code that caused the breach. Yeah, exactly right. 613 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,639 That by incorporating this the whole time and checking it the entire time, you 614 00:42:34,679 --> 00:42:38,440 don't have the code vulnerability that would eventually turn into an exploit for the company. 615 00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:43,079 Yeah. Ye, anyway, I mean, things move, nothing's ever 616 00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:47,599 certain, but at least try to some degree sure. So what's next for 617 00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:50,840 you? What's in your inbox? Oh, there's so many things. So 618 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,440 there's the fall conference season is speaking up right now. I'll be in KCD 619 00:42:55,599 --> 00:43:00,159 Washington, DC in a few weeks. Just yes, today the cube Con 620 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:05,880 Cloud Native Corn North America program for this year was released and it's going to 621 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,519 be in Chicago, and I'll be speaking there as well. Very looking forward 622 00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:14,960 to that as well. And there's a bunch of other conferences that I'm doing. 623 00:43:15,119 --> 00:43:17,079 And in addition to you know, I have I should maybe do a 624 00:43:17,119 --> 00:43:22,400 few more episodes of my podcast. And I'm thinking about the podcast. Oh 625 00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,880 it's been Oh we started in twenty eighteen, I think, so it's been 626 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,800 a bit. We've now been like a bit of a hibernation for like a 627 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,480 yearsh or so, but we should maybe kick it back on. We started 628 00:43:34,519 --> 00:43:39,360 the first season by having essentially like actually we did like scripted episodes into what 629 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:44,039 are containers, how to choose, how to buy a cloud, and whatnot, 630 00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:49,400 so like very like actually not that interviews aren't educational, but like very 631 00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:57,159 like very deep except foundational details. Everything scripted, so every single sentence provided 632 00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:00,480 something new to attendees, and we got so much good feedback from very like 633 00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:04,519 beginner level people. They were very happy with the first season. But then 634 00:44:04,559 --> 00:44:07,280 honestly it was a bit two time, confusing consuming because it took like thirty 635 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:13,079 hours to make like you know, minutes of Contra exactly. So then the 636 00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:17,199 second season we did or the season something that we've done like as an interview 637 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:22,960 format similar to this podcast as well. But now I should maybe revive it. 638 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,519 But I'm also thinking about other stuff as well. I should start kind 639 00:44:24,559 --> 00:44:28,360 of I'm just trying to get this my head around, this idea of you 640 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,920 can hibernate a podcast. What would that be? Like, I can't even 641 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:35,360 imagine. If it happens, it will happen very organically. You just notice, 642 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,559 oh, we didn't do an episode for a year. We'll see what 643 00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:43,880 should I do now that we have? We do not this one, but 644 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,599 we do episodes when there's something to talk about exactly there is anything to talk 645 00:44:46,599 --> 00:44:50,559 about. Why I talk about it? Yeah, sure enough. But like 646 00:44:50,639 --> 00:44:52,320 as far as what I try, I'm trying to act to my inbox or 647 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:57,320 like when I'm actively adding as I go forward, I'm thinking about things like 648 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:04,599 maybe a book or or training series or content video creation or something. Because 649 00:45:04,639 --> 00:45:08,639 I've been doing now international conferences for years already, and I last year for 650 00:45:08,679 --> 00:45:14,360 example, with thirty conferences per year, which is a lot. So I'm 651 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,199 trying to do other stuff as well. Conferences are great, but I think 652 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,960 I want to do something a bit more long form as well, because constant 653 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,159 session is it's great, but it's quite short lived. It happens carving up 654 00:45:24,199 --> 00:45:29,920 your whole life into one hour second. Yeah, exactly, So that's next. 655 00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:34,679 That's great. Well, thanks, it's been great talking to you perfect. 656 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,039 Thank you for having me absolutely, and we'll talk to you dear listeners 657 00:45:38,360 --> 00:46:04,159 next time on dot net box. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by 658 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:08,480 Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video and 659 00:46:08,559 --> 00:46:14,440 post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, and of course in 660 00:46:14,519 --> 00:46:20,199 the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website at d O T 661 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,119 N E t R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, 662 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,239 mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to 663 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,760 show number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure 664 00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:37,480 you check out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write 665 00:46:37,519 --> 00:46:45,880 some code, see you next time. You got metavans dot