1 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:26,920 This is Jonathan Feeshel, Welcome to the symbolic world. If I have a 2 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:33,119 pattern of behavior, it is always towards a purpose. And then we realize 3 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:41,119 that that's what patterns are actually for. And so every time that we experience 4 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:49,000 multiplicity coming into one, every time we experience variability that suddenly appears as it's 5 00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:55,159 moving towards purpose, what's happening is we are experiencing the music of the spheares. 6 00:00:56,359 --> 00:01:02,439 We're experiencing the pattern of the cosmos, and it brings us great joy. 7 00:01:03,159 --> 00:01:07,599 Every time you see a great past in the football game, you're experiencing 8 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:12,519 the music of the sphears, because you see these several players moving and all 9 00:01:12,519 --> 00:01:15,599 of a sudden something happens. He throws the ball and the other person is 10 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,239 exactly in the right place. For some reason, they're not even looking at 11 00:01:19,239 --> 00:01:23,959 each other, but they know where to be and it lets he catches it, 12 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:26,159 and we rejoice. Why do we rejoice? If you break it down 13 00:01:26,239 --> 00:01:30,480 to its elements, it's pretty silly, right. Why do we rejoice? 14 00:01:30,519 --> 00:01:37,280 We rejoice because we see multiplicity come into one. We see action move and 15 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:42,799 pattern towards purpose, and so we experience the We experience the music of the 16 00:01:42,799 --> 00:01:49,000 spheares when when we see a cook make a great meal, because they take 17 00:01:49,079 --> 00:01:53,760 all this stuff, the meat, the vegetables, the spices, they bring 18 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,599 them together, they mix them up, and not just mix them up, 19 00:01:57,079 --> 00:02:00,840 they move them towards purpose. And so when we eat the meal, we 20 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:07,239 rejoice because we're experiencing the music of the spheres. We're experiencing multiplicity move into 21 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:13,639 pattern, multiplicity move into purpose. And so this this image, the image 22 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,159 of the the heavenly Man, if we can put it up again, of 23 00:02:16,199 --> 00:02:21,400 the heavenly Man that is at the center of the of the of the spheres, 24 00:02:22,439 --> 00:02:24,879 you know, it can help you understand a lot of the aspects of 25 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:30,120 that story. You know. That's why, for example, when he's born, 26 00:02:30,199 --> 00:02:36,080 there's a there's a choir of angels. A choir of angels is the 27 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,000 same as the heavenly spheres. It's just exactly the same. There's no difference. 28 00:02:39,479 --> 00:02:45,479 It's just music coming from above, something which is revealing to us the 29 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:50,240 great pattern, something that's happening in the world, which is hiding in it 30 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:57,560 a greater purpose and a and a higher pattern. So it's the same when 31 00:02:57,599 --> 00:03:01,479 we see people dance, we also have that that that pleasure. It's like, 32 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:07,039 why do we enjoy dancing, especially dancing with someone else? Right, 33 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,120 Because then all of a sudden, you do see this multiplicity come together. 34 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:15,639 You do notice that you're moving in unison with someone else, that all of 35 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,159 a sudden, you know, you act and they react, and there's this 36 00:03:17,319 --> 00:03:23,319 back and forth and that is the music of the spears. And we especially 37 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:30,520 experience the music of the spears in In a Great conversation, the cognitive psychologist 38 00:03:30,599 --> 00:03:38,599 John Rivaki talks about d logos. He explains this idea that when you enter 39 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,960 into a real conversation and everybody has had that experience or all of a sudden, 40 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,800 you're carried, you know, and you build on each other's discussion. 41 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:52,759 So maybe you push back a little, but you nonetheless bring the person further, 42 00:03:52,879 --> 00:03:54,919 and they push you back a little, but nonetheless you're brought further. 43 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,159 And all of a sudden you notice that there's almost like a third being the 44 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,360 room, that there's almost a third reality, which is the conversation itself. 45 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:11,680 And you know that that that third reality could not exist if you were alone 46 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,439 just thinking about whatever you're thinking about in your room, you know. And 47 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:21,600 the great theologian Bulgakov saw that reality as an image of the Trinity itself. 48 00:04:23,439 --> 00:04:29,600 That this capacity to enter into conversation or into communion with someone else coming into 49 00:04:29,639 --> 00:04:34,560 common purpose, and that common purpose appearing as the frame or as a as 50 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:40,920 a third reality in our in our communion, that it was an image of 51 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:45,319 the Trinity. And so this image of the you know, the music of 52 00:04:45,319 --> 00:04:51,040 the Spherees is something that continues on until today. What does this have to 53 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:59,439 do with fair tales? My contention is that fairy tales are like tuning forks. 54 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:06,079 Fair tales are mechanisms by which we participate in that music, but also 55 00:05:06,199 --> 00:05:12,519 mechanisms by which we train ourselves in the grammar of that music. And so 56 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,639 it's both a participation but it's also a training. And the way we can 57 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:23,759 think about it, we can think about the origin of fairy tales. You 58 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:29,759 know, this is speculative origin in but you'll notice that it's not that far 59 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,160 fetched. And so you can imagine a great way to think of fair tales. 60 00:05:34,199 --> 00:05:40,759 You can imagine a bunch of grandmothers in villages telling stories, you know, 61 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:46,839 telling stories that are noticing when they tell certain stories with certain aspects that 62 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,720 all of a sudden people's attention perks and they're like, oh, now they're 63 00:05:49,759 --> 00:05:54,720 listening to what I'm saying. And then the person listening to that remembers that 64 00:05:54,759 --> 00:05:59,920 when their grandmother told that story, people were paying attention. And so then 65 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,959 when they tell the story in the same way, maybe they modified a little 66 00:06:01,959 --> 00:06:04,600 and they noticed, oh, when I modified too much this way, Well, 67 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,759 it's not nothing that this is conscious by their way. They noticed that 68 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,720 they when they modified a little bit this way, then people stop paying attention. 69 00:06:13,759 --> 00:06:15,560 If they modified this way, oh, then all of a sudden, 70 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,839 people are paying attention even more. Now. I imagine that happening over forty 71 00:06:20,879 --> 00:06:31,519 thousand years, right, And so salient stories that gather attention, that are 72 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:39,639 remembered and are transmitted, and nobody has to know why, nobody has to 73 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,839 understand the story. Some people do, but most people don't, And that 74 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,279 actually doesn't matter. All that matters is the attention, the memory, and 75 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:57,439 the transmission. Because the music of the spheres is the meaning of things, 76 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,199 right, It's the purpose of things. It's the way that the pattern comes 77 00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:10,759 together. And so when you remember something and when you transmitted, you're participating 78 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,560 in that game. You're participating in the game of meaning in the game of 79 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:20,720 relevance, maybe is the best better word even to use, that the stories 80 00:07:20,759 --> 00:07:28,120 that are relevant will be transmitted and remembered by the very process of storytelling, 81 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,519 and there's almost no way around that. You know, for the same reason 82 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:36,120 that certain TV series become more popular and are remembered, for the same reason 83 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,600 that certain songs are more popular and remembered, it's because they have something in 84 00:07:41,639 --> 00:07:46,680 them that capture more attention. And you can measure that over You can do 85 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:50,600 a how can I say this? You can do a shock version and get 86 00:07:50,639 --> 00:07:56,240 attention, very short attention, and then some people will do that, you 87 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,319 know, even in the music sphere, but usually that attention peaks and then 88 00:08:00,439 --> 00:08:05,120 goes away. What happens over time is that the regular pattern of attention gets 89 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,560 remembered, and so the stories will find will kind of move up and down, 90 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:16,160 will change, but nonetheless we'll keep transmitting that capacity for attention, for 91 00:08:16,079 --> 00:08:24,160 memory and for transmission. And so it's a very it's a very powerful it's 92 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,959 a very powerful vision because what it means is that you can trust the fairy 93 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:33,519 tales. You can trust those stories that have been transmitted over thousands of years, 94 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:37,039 hundreds of years, you can trust them even if you don't understand them, 95 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:46,960 because they must necessarily manifest the pattern of human cognition. They must necessarily 96 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:52,120 manifest the pattern of human attention, of human memory, and that music of 97 00:08:52,159 --> 00:08:56,919 the spheres, and so we have. Therefore, in these stories we have 98 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:05,200 very powerful tools, and you know, we change them to our peril. 99 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:11,039 We're actually dealing with the Chesterton's Fence situation here is that when we come up 100 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:16,919 to the stories and we try to modify them too much, we're actually we're 101 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,600 actually, you know, especially if you're dealing with children, you're actually in 102 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:26,240 danger of twisting their attention. Luckily, in the long term, the twisted 103 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,120 versions will go away. They just won't be remembered, you know, the 104 00:09:30,519 --> 00:09:33,639 political ones, the ideological ones, all these twisting of fairy tales that we've 105 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:37,799 seen in the past decades. They nobody will remember them in the long term. 106 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,440 The damage can be short term, sadly, and so still we have 107 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,200 to be attentive to that. We have to be attentive to the short term 108 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,559 damage that changing them. But what we know is that we can trust these 109 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:56,440 stories because they do contain this powerful structure in them. And in that way, 110 00:09:58,039 --> 00:10:03,080 I would say that they are undistincts from myth, you know, And 111 00:10:03,639 --> 00:10:05,799 in a similar way, I would say not as much. They are very 112 00:10:05,799 --> 00:10:13,440 close to scripture. They're not exactly scripture, because scripture is elevated, you 113 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,720 know. The fairy tales are not elevated. They're just remembered transmitted, and 114 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:22,759 therefore they definitely contain the basic structure of reality in them. For some reason, 115 00:10:22,799 --> 00:10:26,440 we have certain texts, we have certain stories that we elevate on purpose, 116 00:10:26,519 --> 00:10:28,799 and we put above us, and we all look to them as shining 117 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:35,960 beacons. So those stand above but they're very close. Fairy tales are the 118 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:41,159 closest thing to scripture that you can find the side scripture, because they have 119 00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:48,000 the same code or the same underlying structure of reality and this capacity to perceive 120 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:54,120 meaning and to transmit it. And so one of the great things about the 121 00:10:54,159 --> 00:11:01,080 fairy tales right now is that, especially for you, all of you that 122 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,120 are teaching, those that are teaching children, is that the Iliad was not 123 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:09,879 meant to be read ultimately, you know, and you all know that, 124 00:11:09,399 --> 00:11:15,480 right The Iliad was told around the campfire. The Iliad was told to warriors 125 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,399 who came back from battle to help them return to return to their land, 126 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,320 to kind of go through the process of all the horrible things they have done 127 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:28,480 by participating, by remembering, by engaging with the great heroes of the past 128 00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:33,679 that had to make the same types of sacrifices, made the same types of 129 00:11:33,799 --> 00:11:39,600 errors, and so it was really a participative act. The Iliad was a 130 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,639 ritual text, and we have very few of those left. We're so used 131 00:11:43,639 --> 00:11:50,720 to entertainment culture and we're so used to passive reception that we've forgotten that these 132 00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:56,039 stories, they are meant to participate. And just like the Great Conversation that 133 00:11:56,159 --> 00:12:01,240 I mentioned at the outset, how the Great Conversation participates in the music of 134 00:12:01,279 --> 00:12:05,000 the spheres, Well, that's what telling a story to a fairy tale to 135 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:11,960 a child does, especially if you do it while you're being attentive, being 136 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,320 attentive to the child, not just telling the story, but watching the child 137 00:12:16,399 --> 00:12:20,159 and watching how the child responds and interacting with the child as you tell the 138 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:28,840 story, You're you're you're really participating in that that great cosmic music. So 139 00:12:28,879 --> 00:12:33,159 it's a it's an amazing opportunity that we have because it's one of the last 140 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,159 remainders of the ancient world that we have the capacity to sit with children, 141 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,440 you know, in a classroom, in a group around a fire, you 142 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,480 know, as you're tucking them into bed, and tell them a story. 143 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,639 You know, this is one of the last remainders of these great worlds that 144 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,799 we love from the past. So we have to cherish it and we have 145 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:58,120 to really engage with our children in that vision and understanding that it's not just 146 00:12:58,159 --> 00:13:03,960 about information when you're telling a fairy tale, it really is a tuning fork 147 00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:13,879 for reality and in ways that often we even don't understand, the fair tales 148 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:20,120 have cosmic structures. Fair tales are not morality tales. I hope if you've 149 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:22,559 read the grim fairy tales, you probably know that. It's like, try 150 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,919 to find the moral story from Puss and Boots, Like, really try hard 151 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,440 to find a moral story out of Puss in Boots, very difficult. But 152 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,200 nonetheless we tell the story. The children love it, they're remember it. 153 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,600 We don't know why, because fair tales are not moral stories. They have 154 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:43,039 morality downstream from them. But actually, just like the Bible stories are often 155 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:50,639 not not moral stories, especially the Old Testament stories, we can actually stop 156 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,159 thinking that that Old Testament stories have to be moral stories. We probably could 157 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:58,720 appreciate them more because then we go in there and we're shot at every story 158 00:13:58,759 --> 00:14:01,399 because it doesn't fit the way we think things should happen in a nice, 159 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:07,840 decent, puritan moral story. So the fairy tales don't have that at all. 160 00:14:07,879 --> 00:14:13,960 The fairy tales are they are cosmic images, and like I said, 161 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:20,000 I think it is the time to enter into it in a way that is 162 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,399 living. And so this is what I've decided to do now for the past 163 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,840 few years, because of what I've seen happen in the world, I've decided 164 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:31,720 to kind of enter into it. Because it's also dangerous, I think, 165 00:14:31,919 --> 00:14:37,519 especially for people that love classical education, to just see the fairy tales as 166 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,639 texts and say like, oh, we're gonna read them Grim. Well, 167 00:14:41,679 --> 00:14:46,120 the truth is that Grim didn't make up these stories. They didn't come up 168 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:50,200 with these stories. You know, we're gracious to them because they translated them, 169 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,919 because they they collated them, because they told them in a beautiful, 170 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,360 poetic way. We have to be grateful for them for that. But all 171 00:14:56,399 --> 00:15:00,480 of them, the Peoles, the Grims, all of these people that the 172 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,519 fairy tales together, none of them wrote them, so we have to be 173 00:15:03,559 --> 00:15:07,960 careful not to treat them as we treat a novel. For example. You 174 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,440 know, it's like little women and fairy tales. They don't inhabit exactly the 175 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,080 same world. The fairy tales is like a grammar, right, it is 176 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:20,559 like music. And that's why they rhyme with each other too, Right, 177 00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:22,519 the fairy tales look like each other. You know. Cool, Wait a 178 00:15:22,559 --> 00:15:26,159 minute, why this woman falls asleep in this fairy tale? And then she 179 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,240 falls asleep in this fairy tale? And then and you see, like there 180 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,879 are these things that repeat each other. And then you think, oh, 181 00:15:33,919 --> 00:15:37,360 she eats an apple and she falls asleep. That looks like another story I've 182 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,759 seen in the Bible somewhere. I don't know what's going on, but you 183 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:45,279 notice that these stories are different. They have this kind of grammar of repetition, 184 00:15:45,679 --> 00:15:48,480 a pattern, that musical pattern. And so that's the way that we 185 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,320 that I'm encouraging you to engage with them, is that, yes, of 186 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:58,639 course, read the kids the grim version, but also enter into the grammar 187 00:15:58,679 --> 00:16:03,080 of this stories, right, and see how you can actually play with it 188 00:16:03,159 --> 00:16:07,399 to some extent. And I think that that's something that possible to do with 189 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:11,240 great reverence and love for the stories. And so I'm going to take you 190 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:18,039 just quickly through our project that we're embarking on. So I've started now with 191 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:22,440 eight fairy tales. I'm going to tell eight of the most known fairy tales 192 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:26,159 that you can imagine. Snow White, Cinderella, Jack and the Beanstock, 193 00:16:26,559 --> 00:16:30,879 you know, Rumble, steel Skin, all the very very known ones. 194 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:36,879 But enter into them with that desire to first of all celebrate them, but 195 00:16:36,919 --> 00:16:41,240 then also a desire to play with the musicality of the story, you know. 196 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,919 And so I've also noticed that when snow White eats the apples, she 197 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,200 falls asleep, and that looks like a story in Genesis. So I can 198 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,799 add a few little details in the story to make that more salient. I'm 199 00:16:53,799 --> 00:16:57,360 not going to change the story, right, I'm not going to twist it 200 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:03,240 and turn it, but I will bring out or make certain elements shine, 201 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,039 you know, to kind of participate in the great symphony. It's a good 202 00:17:07,039 --> 00:17:11,799 way to think about it, you know, and to add my voice to 203 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:17,039 the symphony of the stories. And so we have and one of the things 204 00:17:17,039 --> 00:17:22,319 that's interesting that's happening now as well is that there are a lot of There 205 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:27,720 are a lot of artists that are tired of the way culture is going. 206 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,319 And you'd be surprised how many there are writers and artists and musicians. And 207 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:40,119 now is a really great time you pay attention. For the next few years, 208 00:17:40,559 --> 00:17:44,319 You're going to see things shake because a lot of the artists are checking 209 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:51,680 out and they want to now move into a a rekindling and a recapturing of 210 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,599 these ancient stories in a powerful way. And so I was able to get 211 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,519 an artist for this book who was a designer for all the great Friends Chies, 212 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,799 right, all the Disney's and the you know, and the Marvels and 213 00:18:03,839 --> 00:18:07,480 the Harry Potter and all that stuff. And so but nonetheless, her love 214 00:18:07,519 --> 00:18:12,240 of the true fairy tale made her want to move on to a project like 215 00:18:12,279 --> 00:18:18,440 this where if you tell and it's so funny because you know, if you 216 00:18:18,519 --> 00:18:22,680 tell a literary agent I'm gonna write a version of Snow White, and they 217 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,359 ask you, well, what's your take on it? And it's like, 218 00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:29,000 no, there's no take on it. I'm actually gonna tell the story of 219 00:18:29,039 --> 00:18:33,559 snow White, and you know it And it's funny because obviously nobody, I 220 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:38,480 mean, soon people will understand. But at the outset people wonder what's going 221 00:18:38,519 --> 00:18:41,319 on. But you know, nonetheless, we sold out the first print of 222 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,200 the book. I was actually supposed to have books tonight. I don't have 223 00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:48,000 any because we just sold out all the books. And so the moment is 224 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:53,200 happening, Like the moment is clear. So what I want to do is 225 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,519 I want to take you through a fairy tale. And this is actually a 226 00:19:00,559 --> 00:19:03,079 fair tale that we're gonna tell, but I wanna kind of take you through 227 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:10,319 it to help you hopefully see a little bit of how it is a cosmic 228 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,839 story, even though it is couched in rather silly imagery, you know, 229 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,680 and and things that in a story that we've heard since we've been ten and 230 00:19:18,759 --> 00:19:25,599 that the type of story that the the New Atheist will mock Christianity as looking 231 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,960 like. It's like, I'm happy that the Bible looks like Jack and the 232 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,279 bean Stock. It's Jack and the Beanstock's an amazing story. It's an amazing 233 00:19:32,319 --> 00:19:37,200 cosmic story. So we're gonna go through Jack and the Beanstock, and we'll 234 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,759 hopefully you'll be able to start to see how we can play with this and 235 00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:48,920 how this makes sense. Alright, So Jack of the Beanstock is also a 236 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:52,519 story that I'm fond of right now because a lot of the fairy tales that 237 00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:56,880 have been popular in the past decades have been about have have girls in them, 238 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,839 and a lot of the fair tales that I'm telling also will have female 239 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,279 antagonist. This one is a story that has a male protagonist, and it's 240 00:20:03,279 --> 00:20:07,279 interesting because I think that it has to do with that as well. It 241 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:12,519 has to do just like snow White or Cinderella to some extent, are the 242 00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:18,240 transition of a young girl to womanhood. I think Jack is also about that 243 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:23,960 for a young boy. So we kind of look at it and she So 244 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:30,920 Jack doesn't have a father, that's important in the story. I think he 245 00:20:30,039 --> 00:20:36,480 has two things. He has a mother and he has a cow. Now, 246 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,359 fairy tales are sometimes quite on the nose, and there's a relationship between 247 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,400 the two and the story, you know, because the cow is obviously the 248 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:52,160 creature that provides the milk for the family, you know. And now his 249 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:57,680 mother is his guardian. And so he's an eleven year old boy, twelve 250 00:20:57,759 --> 00:21:00,319 year old boy. It's not you're in the story, but he's a boy 251 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,599 that's right on that edge where he's going to start to change. His mind's 252 00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:07,400 going to start to change, his body's going to start to change, and 253 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:15,160 he's going to start to realize certain things. And so he's missing something in 254 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,240 his life. Doesn't know quite what it is yet, he doesn't understand it. 255 00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:23,559 But he lives in this world with his mother and the cow. But 256 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:30,640 things are so dire because they're missing that which provides and that which makes his 257 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,880 couldn't make his family continue. They're missing that. They're running out of body. 258 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,119 The good way to understand it. They're just running out of food, 259 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:42,359 they're running out of wealth. They don't have anything left. And so at 260 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:48,240 some point his mother becomes desperate tells him go sell the cow. You know, 261 00:21:48,319 --> 00:21:49,680 basically, we'll buy some food, we'll eat and will die, you 262 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,559 know, like it'll be that'll be it for us, you know, similar 263 00:21:53,559 --> 00:22:00,240 to the story of Elijah and the Widow by the way, very similar of 264 00:22:00,279 --> 00:22:07,039 the structure. And so Jack goes out and he sells his cow. So 265 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:08,720 I'm gonna show you these are son images from our book. I'll tell you 266 00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:14,119 when they're from our book, just so you can see the difference. So 267 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,440 Jack goes out and he sells the cow for beans match beans It's really interesting 268 00:22:18,519 --> 00:22:22,640 because right in the story, of course, it's presented as a trick, 269 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,519 and in some ways it is a trick. But the question is is it 270 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:30,640 really a trick? What is he trading for? What is he what is 271 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:38,000 he trading? Right, he's trading the cow for seed, That's what he's 272 00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:42,640 trading for. He's trading it for a seed. And what's a what's a 273 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:51,119 seed? Right? A seed is a pattern without body. It's the best 274 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:55,839 way to understand it. Right, that's a maybe that's when Christ talks about 275 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,200 the mustard seed, That's what he's trying to refer to. It's like, 276 00:22:59,279 --> 00:23:03,240 it's a it's a it's a pattern that doesn't yet have body, and that 277 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:08,000 it has to then find body and it will grow. But it's a meaning, 278 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,000 right, it's a purpose, but it's still small, it doesn't have 279 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:21,279 body yet. But it's also you know, it's interesting too, like in 280 00:23:21,319 --> 00:23:23,640 the twentieth century, you've had all these people tell you that fairy tales are 281 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,480 all about sex, and the truth is they are about sex. They're not 282 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:37,119 just about sex. And that's the difference, is that the cosmic dance involves 283 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,160 sex. Guys, like sex is part of the cosmic sphere, the music 284 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,279 of the spheres. Right. It is a pattern of communion. It is 285 00:23:45,319 --> 00:23:49,519 a pattern of dance, of coming together, you know, of the finding 286 00:23:49,559 --> 00:23:55,319 of purpose and of meaning and of life. And so the imagery will always 287 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,359 contain some sexual aspect to it, but it's not just that. And if 288 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,599 we can see the whole picture, then we are not afraid of the aspects 289 00:24:03,599 --> 00:24:08,640 that are to some extent reflect that. Right, And so this is also 290 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:15,279 reflected in this question. Is that he finds the seed. That's what he's 291 00:24:15,319 --> 00:24:19,559 missing. He's missing his father, right, and he's also missing he's also 292 00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:25,720 entering into a world where this will become relevant to him. Right, He's 293 00:24:25,759 --> 00:24:30,799 discovering this aspect of the world. Okay, so that's that's part of the 294 00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:37,519 that's part of the story. Now, you know, his mother cannot recognize 295 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,119 the seed. She doesn't recognize the value because of her role in the story, 296 00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:45,920 because she is the widow in the story. She's she's the woman who 297 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,759 doesn't have a husband, and because of that, their family's in trouble, 298 00:24:49,519 --> 00:24:55,160 and so she can't recognize it, tosses it out, tosses it out, 299 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,559 of course, and then overnight what happens the bean stock grows and when he 300 00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:03,680 wakes up up, there's a bean stock there in the morning. Now, 301 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,039 there are so many stories that have that similar structure. Right, the bean 302 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:17,000 stock is is Jacob's ladder, Right, It's the it's igracil, it's you 303 00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:19,920 know, it's the pillar, the axis mundi if you like that type of 304 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,319 language. Right. It is the thing that connects heaven and earth. It 305 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:29,279 is the hierarchy of being. It is the music of the spheres, right, 306 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:33,559 it is. That's how the ancients understood these heavenly spheres that went up 307 00:25:34,079 --> 00:25:40,559 as a hierarchy of purposes and of truth, that went all the way up 308 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,799 into those stars that don't move, that are fixed, that are that don't 309 00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:48,440 move, that aren't part of the dance, that are beyond the dance, 310 00:25:48,559 --> 00:25:52,839 right, the prime mobile. Right, that's what Dante goes through. Dante 311 00:25:53,079 --> 00:25:59,880 experiences layers of meaning, layers of purpose, layers of virtue as he is 312 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:06,200 sends the heavenly spears to reach the highest point. And this is exactly the 313 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:12,119 same as what's going on in this story. This pillar appears, which connects 314 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:18,799 heaven and earth, and you know, but it is also it is also 315 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,440 Jack waking up in the morning to the bean stock, right, and so 316 00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:27,519 it has a sexual element to it. But it's not just that, right, 317 00:26:27,559 --> 00:26:33,839 and it's you know, and it's the same even like Jacob Jacob's pillar 318 00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:37,920 is related to all of this symbolism, but it's not the same. It's 319 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,559 not just that. That's what I want to say. I just want to 320 00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:47,039 help you when when the postmodern will tell you that that fairy tales are only 321 00:26:47,079 --> 00:26:48,759 about sex, it's like, yeah, get over it. You know, 322 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,880 they're also about higher meanings and you know, and those are more important. 323 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,720 I don't know what to tell you, right. And so Jack climbs the 324 00:26:57,759 --> 00:27:02,680 bean stock, but climbs the bean stock. It's important that his mother wants 325 00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:06,319 to prevent him from climbing the bean stock, because his mother wants to prevent 326 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,960 him from climbing the bean stock for the same reason that she couldn't recognize the 327 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,200 seed at the outset, right, And that is also the twelve year old 328 00:27:14,279 --> 00:27:22,039 boy that has to now find his own purpose, that has to you know, 329 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,960 has to find his way out of the house slowly and progressively, but 330 00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:30,640 has to find his own purpose. And that is what Jack is doing. 331 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:42,839 And so he climbs the bean stock and he comes to the giant and so 332 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:49,240 this one is also from our book future book. Now this music, Okay, 333 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:55,240 what's important to understand is that this music like a fugue or you know, 334 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,160 it's fractal, which is that the pattern that it shows you will always 335 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,519 repeat itself in the parts of the story. So the parts of the story 336 00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:10,079 are like little mirrors for the whole story. Right, Does that make sense 337 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,440 to you. That's what a fractal is. It's like it's a pattern that 338 00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:18,799 repeats itself at every single level that you can recognize. Okay, So when 339 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:22,880 Jack enters into the house of the Giant, what happens. The woman wants 340 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,119 to protect him. Obviously, what does she want to protect him from. 341 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,440 She wants to protect him from this giant man that's going to devour him. 342 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:34,920 Will the giant man devour him? Yes? Does he have to confront that? 343 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,319 Yes? Right, those are all true. All of it is true. 344 00:28:40,839 --> 00:28:42,880 And is the woman kind of right to want to protect him from that? 345 00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:47,319 Of course she is right, of course she does. She wants to 346 00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:52,640 protect him from the evils of hierarchy, the evils of masculinity. All of 347 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,079 that stuff is real, you know, the tyranny of the Father. All 348 00:28:56,119 --> 00:29:00,400 of that stuff exists, but nonetheless Jack has to deal with it, has 349 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,359 to encounter it, has to confront it. So what does he get from 350 00:29:04,559 --> 00:29:08,400 his first encounter? So he goes up three times. I don't want to 351 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,400 make this the longest story in the world. He goes up three times and 352 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:17,880 he gets three things. The first thing he gets is gold, and he 353 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,000 brings the gold back down. Now what can he do with the gold? 354 00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:29,400 If you can buy food? Problem solved? It's great, Right, we 355 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,480 had a problem, we don't have enough food. I go up into heaven, 356 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,079 I get the solution, I get the reason, I get the purpose. 357 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,799 Then I bring it back down. Then I solve the problem. That's 358 00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:45,319 what we do all the time. When we solve a problem. We go 359 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,039 up into heaven, we find the reason, we find the purpose, we 360 00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:52,720 find the solution, and then we come back down and we implement it into 361 00:29:52,720 --> 00:30:02,119 the world. Okay, but then what happens the money runs out? Hm, 362 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:07,880 he didn't go high enough or he didn't get enough from heaven. Because 363 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:15,319 what's better to solve a problem, or to solve a single problem, or 364 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:21,480 to understand how to solve problems? Right? Understanding how to solve problems is 365 00:30:21,519 --> 00:30:26,720 a much better skill than solving a particular problem. I can know how to 366 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,359 hammer a nail, and I could do that all day. But if I 367 00:30:30,519 --> 00:30:36,319 understand carpentry, then I can figure out all the things that are downstream from 368 00:30:36,359 --> 00:30:40,599 that. So what's the next thing Jack gets? Goes up there and he 369 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:45,319 gets now the cause of riches. So riches are one thing, they're great, 370 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,079 but how to make money is way better than money. If you know 371 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:53,519 how to do that, it's much better. And all this time, what's 372 00:30:53,559 --> 00:31:00,640 really important is that Jack is also sacrificing his immediate needs. And that's what 373 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,319 he did. At the outset. He's learning, you know, to delay 374 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:11,680 pleasure. He's learning to delay his immediate desires because you know, milk is 375 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,160 good and getting food is good. And that's why when he goes up, 376 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,960 he always asks the woman for food. If you notice in the story, 377 00:31:18,039 --> 00:31:22,079 he goes up and he asks her for food, and then she puts him 378 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:25,759 in the cupboard, tries to protect him, and then he adventures out, 379 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,079 goes out, deals with the dangerous man and then gets the treasure. And 380 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:37,359 the second thing he gets is the way to make money. That's great. 381 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,559 Now he comes back down he's pretty much solved all his problems. You know, 382 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,599 now he can just generate wealth. He's good. He's a businessman. 383 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,039 He knows how it works. Right. He doesn't just know how to run 384 00:31:48,119 --> 00:31:51,519 a dry cleaner, but he knows how to run several companies. He's good 385 00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:55,200 to go, so he can become rich. It's all good. There's something 386 00:31:55,279 --> 00:31:59,319 missing, it seems, and something itching right, something's itching at him. 387 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:05,079 Feels like there's something more that he hasn't gotten yet. He needs one more 388 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,920 step, so he goes back up. The same thing happens, but this 389 00:32:10,079 --> 00:32:16,519 time the weirdest thing, right, how do you do you get gold? 390 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,359 Then the chicken that lays eggs makes sense? Why is the third one of 391 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:27,279 harp? That's weird? Hope we've been paying attention from the beginning, because 392 00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:31,160 now you know why it's a harp. Right now, he's getting the pattern. 393 00:32:32,759 --> 00:32:39,160 He's getting the pattern that cannot be spoken. He's getting the origin of 394 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:44,400 all the other patterns. Right, He's getting the harp that says, he's 395 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,839 getting the music of his fears. That's what he's getting, and that's the 396 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,720 highest thing. He's getting the pattern of reality. And now he brings it 397 00:32:52,759 --> 00:32:59,319 back down and it's not clear like what advantage in material terms this harp is 398 00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:01,960 going to bring. It doesn't seem like it's going to bring him any But 399 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:07,119 it's the beauty of the song, right, that attracts it. Something more 400 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:13,359 than just his belly, something more than just the desire to solve the problems. 401 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:20,200 He's lifted up into something higher, something that transcends those desires, and 402 00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:24,880 he's capable of perceiving it because all this time he's been sacrificing to some extent, 403 00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:30,359 those little desires for higher purposes. Right, And we all know, 404 00:33:30,559 --> 00:33:34,680 right, that's what education is, right, you know, you can tell 405 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,839 a ten year old boy to sit still. It's like, what are you 406 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:45,839 doing. You're saying, sacrifice your immediate desire for something more and you'll thank 407 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,440 me later, you know, because if I, if I let you do 408 00:33:50,519 --> 00:33:52,319 whatever you want, and I let you eat all the candy and I let 409 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:55,799 you do whatever, you know, you'll be miserable. And you know, 410 00:33:57,359 --> 00:34:01,160 And so Jack discovers that. Jack finds that as he ascends the hierarchy. 411 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:07,960 Now you know the story. You know the story more than you think, 412 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:12,840 right, This story, the story of Jack is very similar. It's actually 413 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:20,840 almost the same as this story. It's almost exactly the same as the story 414 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:28,760 of Moses. What happens What happens to Moses? Right, he's a shepherd, 415 00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:32,360 he's got a good life, he's got a wife, got kids. 416 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,679 It's good to go. Then he sees this glimmering thing. It's not a 417 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:39,960 seed, oh, it's a burning bush. But you get it right, 418 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:47,239 sees this shimmering thing, and then ultimately that leads him to sacrifice all to 419 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:53,679 go through great difficulty in order to ascend the mountain. Now what does he 420 00:34:53,719 --> 00:35:01,119 get at the top of the mountain? He gets a pattern? What do 421 00:35:01,199 --> 00:35:07,199 you think law is? That's what law is. Law is a pattern of 422 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,800 behavior. Right, And in the case of the law that is given to 423 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,559 to to Moses, it's not just a pattern of behavior. It's first of 424 00:35:16,559 --> 00:35:21,960 all, a pattern of attention. Right, you will have one God, 425 00:35:22,039 --> 00:35:27,480 you will worship one God. That's a pattern of attention. And then downstream 426 00:35:27,519 --> 00:35:32,400 from that it's a pattern of behavior. So that's also part of the you 427 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,800 know, the top the first aspect of the law have more to do with 428 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:43,320 ontology, with the way the world exists. And then the second part, 429 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,360 the moral part, is downstream fairy tales are the same. Like I told 430 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,920 you, if you try to find too much morality in fairy tales, you're 431 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,079 really going to you're gonna you're gonna have to twist them and you're gonna have 432 00:35:54,079 --> 00:35:58,800 to to make them into something else. But if you understand that they're actually 433 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,800 usually on to logic structures, they're showing the structure of being, and then 434 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,880 downstream from that you can get moral meaning. That's a much better way to 435 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,960 approach fairy tales. Then. Also, what does Moses get there at the 436 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,679 top of the mountain. He gets a literal plan for a building, He 437 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,440 gets an actual pattern for a building. God says, you're gonna make a 438 00:36:22,519 --> 00:36:27,519 building. It's gonna be this size. He's like, he gets architectural plans 439 00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:30,199 at the top of that. But that's what you need to understand and why 440 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:35,719 Also you need to understand that you know the temple, the pattern of the 441 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,039 temple is not is not a moral question. It's not moral in itself. 442 00:36:40,039 --> 00:36:44,440 It's not telling you how to how to you know, how to not steal 443 00:36:44,519 --> 00:36:46,440 or do all that stuff. It is it is a pattern of participation, 444 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:52,440 right the liturgy or the way that the Israelites came to the temple and sacrificed, 445 00:36:52,480 --> 00:37:00,280 and the whole order of the temple itself was representing the beanstock itself. 446 00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:07,800 The structure of the temple is this moving into the secret place where the secret 447 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:12,360 glory of God is hidden. And that's the same at least in these kinds 448 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,639 of stories, as as that mustard seed. And the crazy thing about that 449 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:22,800 is what does Moses find when he comes back down the mountain. He finds 450 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:29,199 a cow, you know, because the people have worshiped their desires, right, 451 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:35,800 and then they've worshiped their desires instead of looking up towards higher reality and 452 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,280 the sacrifice, you know, it's the upside down of what the story in 453 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,880 the story in Jack, Jack has to sacrifice the cow. He has to 454 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:49,519 sacrifice the cow in order to get the meaning. Here you find Moses coming 455 00:37:49,519 --> 00:37:54,199 down and realizing that because the people are now worshiping the cow, the pattern 456 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:59,280 doesn't it's not gonna fit. The pattern has to be broken. The pattern 457 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:04,400 cannot connect with that world, and they have to purify themselves so that when 458 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,920 he comes back down again, then the pattern can connect to the people. 459 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:15,239 And so this is just one fairy tale, you know, and I chose 460 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:19,920 one which when I was a child, I love Jack and the bean Stock, 461 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:24,880 but it always bothered me because I was told that fairy tales are supposed 462 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,960 to be moral. Jack and the bee Stock is not moral at all. 463 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:30,679 There's nothing moral about it. But he goes up there steals from these giants. 464 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,639 If you take it at the first level, it's like, who's the 465 00:38:34,639 --> 00:38:37,880 bad guy in the story? You know, it's probably Jack, right, 466 00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:42,519 just in terms of simple morality, it's not the giants. Like he's up 467 00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:45,760 there mining his own business and someone's in his house. You know. It's 468 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:52,239 like, but if you see it rather as this structure of being right, 469 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,800 as this structure of participation, then then it lays itself out beautifully and powerfully 470 00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:01,679 before you. And so you know, my call to you is to take 471 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:07,840 these stories very seriously. And you know, so I spend all this time, 472 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:09,559 you know, explaining it to you, and I'm not explaining it to 473 00:39:09,639 --> 00:39:15,039 you. This story has way more than what I was able to explain to 474 00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:19,960 you. And it's really important when you think about fairy tales that they're not 475 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,519 they're not metaphors for things. And Tokien got this right, by the way, 476 00:39:25,679 --> 00:39:30,519 because Tokien hated when people said that his work was symbolic, he said, 477 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:35,199 my work isn't symbolic. My work is applicable. And that's the way 478 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,880 to understand fairy tales is that fairy tales are patterns of being that are applicable. 479 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,920 Now I can show you the analogies, right, and I can say 480 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,599 this is like Moses, this is like this, this is like that, 481 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,719 this applies to this, and it can help you see the pattern that you 482 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,840 didn't perceive before. And it's helpful to do that because it can make you 483 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,519 see how valuable it is. But I'm not explaining it to you, you 484 00:39:59,519 --> 00:40:04,920 know, and that's really important. And what that means is that two things. 485 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,039 Means that one, you can keep telling the fair tales to the kids 486 00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:12,840 and don't worry about it. The story will take care of itself, right. 487 00:40:13,639 --> 00:40:17,159 And two you have the rest of your life, as you tell these 488 00:40:17,199 --> 00:40:22,440 stories to the kids, to realize that they have something to teach you. 489 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,360 You have no idea, like you have no idea what they contained, the 490 00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:31,800 power and the depth that they have in them. That honestly, fair tales 491 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,880 are not just for kids, and they never were. Really, it's weird. 492 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,840 It's a very modern idea that fair tales are just for kids. We 493 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,840 tell them to kids because kids, you know, they haven't forgotten how to 494 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,280 hear the music of this fear so much like fifth Agora said, but they're 495 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,320 for us as well. And so I'm embarking on this, on this adventure 496 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,280 of myself. I encourage you to embark on it on your own, to 497 00:40:58,679 --> 00:41:02,159 look through you know, look, in the next few years, we'll see 498 00:41:02,519 --> 00:41:06,800 these eight fairy tales that are gonna come out that are going to be this 499 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:10,280 kind of symphony of fairy tales where we're gonna play with the rhyme and with 500 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:15,039 the the meetings of the fairy tale so that they kind of come together in 501 00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:17,920 this great symphony at the end. So hopefully I was able to make you 502 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:34,599 love fairy tales even more than when you walked in. Thank you, Thank 503 00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:38,360 you. We're gonna have a Q and A session now, talk about fifteen 504 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:42,880 minutes or so. We do have a microphone down front, so I'll kick 505 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,679 us off with a question here, But if you could, if you could 506 00:41:45,679 --> 00:41:50,639 line up in front of the microphone so that you're ready to go, and 507 00:41:50,760 --> 00:42:00,639 we would ask that the question be a question, not five minutes and then 508 00:42:01,079 --> 00:42:05,400 Hi, Jamen, what do you think about that? So, in other 509 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,079 words, trying to be concise, we get more questions, So please feel 510 00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:15,039 free to come line up here at the microphone while they're doing that. I 511 00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:21,400 was very taken by this analogy of the football team and when the pass is 512 00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:25,960 thrown, everything's in its place. Now. I grew up a suffering Browns 513 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:34,840 fan and the receiver was never in his place. Frustrating. I won't ask 514 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,880 you what you make of you know, My question actually is obviously lots of 515 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:45,840 talk about these stories being in some sense freed from a particular telling, right, 516 00:42:46,519 --> 00:42:52,920 they existed before grim What do you what do you make of the connection 517 00:42:52,079 --> 00:43:00,400 though, between the story and the particular telling is the particular linguistic incarnation importance? 518 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:06,199 Is it important to read multiple versions of it? What is that connection 519 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:10,960 between the story itself and that particular telling. Well, it's the same, 520 00:43:12,119 --> 00:43:16,039 it's the same process as what was there before. Is that the reason why 521 00:43:16,199 --> 00:43:21,360 the Grims were able to do that, and that we love the fairy tales 522 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,280 is because they captured something true, you know if and so that is something 523 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,639 that should be remembered and celebrated, and it will be. And so you 524 00:43:29,679 --> 00:43:32,599 know, I think that it's important to read the grim versions because they are 525 00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:40,679 a beautifully crystallized version that has become a marker for the way we understand fairy 526 00:43:40,679 --> 00:43:44,800 tales, and that has there's a reason why that's the case, and so 527 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,039 I think that we definitely need, you know, to do both, to 528 00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:53,480 both remember the great tellers of the of the fairy tale, but then also 529 00:43:53,559 --> 00:43:58,079 engage with them, you know. And it is a good idea to play 530 00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,239 with the fair tales little because you know, we all know now that there's 531 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:06,400 like twenty five versions of snow White, you know, and it's interesting, 532 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,480 you know, when you tell the story to a child, to switch it 533 00:44:09,599 --> 00:44:13,400 up a little bit, to do it in a traditional way, right, 534 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,239 to not make some stupid thing up, but to really you know, sometimes 535 00:44:16,119 --> 00:44:22,840 the dwarves are robbers, you know. Sometimes the dwarves are more like our 536 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,480 miners. Sometimes they're they're not even dwarves, right, Sometimes they're there, 537 00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:30,880 and so it can be an interesting way to help the child know what analogy 538 00:44:31,039 --> 00:44:35,760 is. And totally unconsciously, by the way, one of the things I 539 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,239 did when I was selling the fairy tale to my kids is I would always 540 00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:42,559 pause when there was a rhyming point when I would say, you know, 541 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,039 like snow White falls asleep, and I'd say where did you where have you 542 00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:49,719 seen that before? And then they'd remember other they'd say, oh, yeah, 543 00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,239 sleeping beauty also fall asleep. And then you don't even have to explain 544 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,280 it. Just let them see the analogy, you know, especially if they're 545 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,360 young like six seven, Just let them see the analogy. They're learning the 546 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,480 lan without you even having to explain it to them. So let me be 547 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:08,079 a little bit more pointed with this. Why publish a new version? Oh? 548 00:45:08,199 --> 00:45:14,960 Because I believe that there are things in the fairy tales that are appropriate 549 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:19,079 for the context. So this is the great thing about stories like this is 550 00:45:19,079 --> 00:45:22,960 that their wealth is so immense that there are certain things that you can make 551 00:45:23,039 --> 00:45:28,159 shine that are relevant to the moment. You know. A simple example in 552 00:45:28,599 --> 00:45:31,239 our version of snow White is there are two versions of this the mirror. 553 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,559 One is mirror on the wall, one is a mirror in my hand. 554 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,559 And you know, in our version, we made it a mirror in my 555 00:45:37,639 --> 00:45:40,280 hand. And if you saw the image of it and she holding the mirror 556 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:45,480 in her hand like this, it's like, oh, okay, I understand. 557 00:45:45,679 --> 00:45:50,880 One of the aspects of what that can apply to this, this narcissism 558 00:45:51,159 --> 00:45:55,360 and this this this black mirror that you know tells you who's the most beautiful? 559 00:45:55,679 --> 00:45:59,800 You know, it's like and so. So those are little things, 560 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,280 but these are but you don't betray the story at all. You just tell 561 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,000 the story of snow white. But to make certain things salient I think is 562 00:46:06,039 --> 00:46:12,599 important. Derk thanks shake, Jonathan, thank you. I thought that was 563 00:46:12,679 --> 00:46:19,079 great, but more of a point of clarity or question for clarity. So 564 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,639 what I heard you suggesting is that the let's say, let's call them the 565 00:46:23,679 --> 00:46:30,280 important aspects of fairy tales are attention, memory, and transmission. It seemed 566 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:35,039 that you were at least this is what I heard, that memory was not 567 00:46:35,559 --> 00:46:39,880 or it was something separate. Is that a fair understanding of Was there a 568 00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:45,840 delineation there that Oh sorry, that meaning that I say memory meaning that meaning 569 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:50,239 was a different. No. When I talked about attention, memory, and 570 00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:54,239 transmission, I was just talking about the mechanism by which we have them, 571 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:59,639 which is that fairy tales are not just about those three things there, but 572 00:47:00,559 --> 00:47:06,000 the fact that attention, the way that humans pay attention, the way they 573 00:47:06,039 --> 00:47:09,239 remember things, and then the way they retell them is a beautiful way to 574 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,840 understand why the fairy tales have come to us, and also why they contain 575 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,079 a pattern of consciousness in them because of those three aspects. But are those 576 00:47:19,679 --> 00:47:22,039 in your mind? The meaning? The meaning is there, but usually you 577 00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:28,320 don't. Yeah, can I say, an illiterate grandma is not going to 578 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,320 tell a story because it's meaningful, right, Like, not in the way 579 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,599 that we think meaningful, you know, when you think about it, Like 580 00:47:35,639 --> 00:47:37,159 when you're telling a story around the fire with your kids, you know, 581 00:47:37,559 --> 00:47:42,079 you're not thinking about like how meaningful is this? You want them to love 582 00:47:42,119 --> 00:47:44,800 it, You want them to pay attention, you want them to be enthralled, 583 00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,599 you want them to follow along, you know, but you might I 584 00:47:47,599 --> 00:47:52,320 mean so, so where do you see the pedagogical implications of that? When 585 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:58,519 when you're putting the fairy tales forth? What do you see as the highest 586 00:47:58,639 --> 00:48:06,960 end right of that transmission, right of this thousand year old story? Should 587 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:12,559 the teacher care about the meaning at all? Is or is that not the 588 00:48:12,599 --> 00:48:16,039 important aspect of the telling? Like when you use the word meaning, what 589 00:48:16,079 --> 00:48:20,039 do you mean? Well, I mean in the sense of what you did, 590 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:28,880 so you took us through the images themselves, not necessarily that the maybe 591 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,840 the kindergarten teacher would do exactly what you did with us, but maybe to 592 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:40,679 some extent to draw out applicability, right, And I'm just wondering what the 593 00:48:40,679 --> 00:48:49,679 pedagogical import of that. The first thing I would say is that in the 594 00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,800 same way that I don't think you would ask what the pedagogical import of learning 595 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:59,559 to play the piano is. It's the same here that is learning the grammar 596 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:07,400 of being is not It's not a like that is beyond the specific application. 597 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:12,960 It's like learning how to learning how to play well with your friends is more 598 00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,920 than pedagogy, right, It's learning to be human. It's learning to be 599 00:49:16,599 --> 00:49:22,519 to to to dance in that pattern. And so the fairy tale is like 600 00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:27,760 a tuning fork for a person in terms of meaning. So it's it actually, 601 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:32,320 in some ways is more than it's more than it's applicability, and participating 602 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:37,679 in the fairy tales precedes the application. The applications can be great, but 603 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:42,400 if the applications are always secondary and they can be fun, you can actually 604 00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:45,559 have fun with kids because you can do it as questions instead of doing it 605 00:49:45,599 --> 00:49:50,679 as a teaching. You can ask the child, why did Jack do this? 606 00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:53,079 Why did snow White do this? You know, why did snow White? 607 00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:57,480 Why would snow White? Why is it that she let the queen in? 608 00:49:58,159 --> 00:50:00,320 You know? And you can do it that way and and then the 609 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:05,480 child will be forced to think about it in their own context, and they 610 00:50:05,559 --> 00:50:10,320 will they will find applications. You can teach the applications too. But I 611 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:16,119 think anyways, I think that the the music of the Sphere's aspect precedes the 612 00:50:17,159 --> 00:50:28,599 simple pedagogical aspects. Elks, thanks for talking. The most difficult part about 613 00:50:28,639 --> 00:50:31,079 coming up here is not doing what Jake just said. So I'm just gonna 614 00:50:31,079 --> 00:50:38,199 ask the question our fairy tales. Is the purpose of fairy tales different for 615 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:45,480 adults than for children? And or is there something different adults are supposed to 616 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:49,960 get out of it than children are? No, I think I think yes. 617 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,320 I think adults can get more out of different things out of fairy tales. 618 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:57,159 And it has to do in some ways with the play. So you 619 00:50:57,199 --> 00:51:00,920 know, it's the same with music, right, Just like when you start 620 00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:04,400 with the child, you say, you know, just play the play the 621 00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,760 piece like you know, do the different exercises, and they learn the exercises, 622 00:51:09,039 --> 00:51:12,920 and then as you get older, at some point then you can listen 623 00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,719 to a fugue and you can notice the great things that box is doing, 624 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,639 you know, and taking you out of the pattern and then hinting at it 625 00:51:22,679 --> 00:51:25,000 and teasing you and then bringing you back and this, and you can actually 626 00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:29,880 more consciously see what's going on. And I think that that's what adults can 627 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:32,559 do, is that now you know, and it's actually fun. Especially the 628 00:51:32,599 --> 00:51:36,280 fair says you know really well as a child, and that you you knew 629 00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,679 and as an adult not go back and say I'm gonna take this seriously, 630 00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:44,119 and all of a sudden you can see these beautiful things. They can they 631 00:51:44,199 --> 00:51:47,920 can unfold riches in a more conscious and intellectual way. That is that can 632 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,800 be quite quite fun and more than fun, but that can actually reveal to 633 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,840 you some deep mysteries. Actually, even about scripture. By the way, 634 00:51:58,079 --> 00:52:00,880 there are some things that I've understood in scripture that I understood because I was 635 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:05,559 reading fairy tales. But all of a sudden I was like, oh, 636 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,960 that's one of the things that's going on. And because it's close, but 637 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:13,440 it's not, and so it makes you think of the scriptural story differently and 638 00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,599 it kind of it reflects back on it and you're like, why is it 639 00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:19,519 different? Why is it the same? And then you get these insights. 640 00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:23,199 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense for kids. Is there something because 641 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:28,400 you mentioned at the end of your talk there's things they see that maybe it's 642 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,000 harder for you to see as an adult, and just any more about that, 643 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:37,760 and I'm sorry to understand that the students are seeing or the children are 644 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,320 seeing. That's they'll see it implicitly. They'll see it implicitly by their attention. 645 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,679 It's like a child loves something. And if a child a child children 646 00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:50,960 love fairy tales, you don't have to explain the fairy tales to them, 647 00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:52,440 especially now when they you're super young. They just love to hear them. 648 00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:58,480 And so it's like rejoice, like rejoice in that it's wonderful. They love 649 00:52:58,519 --> 00:53:00,559 the stories, you know, and as they get older, then you can 650 00:53:00,639 --> 00:53:04,719 tease out the applications, you know, you could. I mean, it 651 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,199 would be a great idea, for example, for an education program to go 652 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:12,440 through the fairy tales that say three times in the curriculum, you have them 653 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,079 in kindergarten first grade, you just read them to the kids you play with, 654 00:53:15,199 --> 00:53:17,719 you play with them, you know, you have them, memorize them, 655 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,440 you do them as poems, you do them as plays. You just 656 00:53:21,519 --> 00:53:24,800 get them to do them. And then you know, maybe at around like 657 00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:29,519 I would say, like twelve years old, then you go back into them 658 00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:35,880 and then you see what fruit that those patterns have produced. And then you 659 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:39,000 know, like senior year of high school, then ask a senior to analyze 660 00:53:39,039 --> 00:53:43,920 a fairy tale and to do it like the structure of it and show how 661 00:53:44,039 --> 00:53:47,679 its literary references, to be able to demonstrate how, you know, how 662 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,440 the variability and how it looks like this myth or it looks like these other 663 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,199 things. You know. I think that would be a great way to do 664 00:53:54,239 --> 00:54:04,519 fairy tales. Thank you, thank you again for your talk. I really 665 00:54:04,559 --> 00:54:10,719 appreciate your caution that we over moralize story, and particularly with fair tales, 666 00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:16,920 take that approach, but instead take a ontological approach to understanding how reality works. 667 00:54:17,639 --> 00:54:24,039 But I'm curious to understand, particularly for those of us who are tasked 668 00:54:24,119 --> 00:54:29,360 with ordering the loves of children, cultivating virtue and children. Can you say 669 00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:36,360 a bit more about why that approach is more effective than an over moralistic approach 670 00:54:36,519 --> 00:54:40,239 that I think is more common in a modern sense. I mean, I 671 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,760 think you've answered your own question. You know, it's like you can't. 672 00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,119 The world is made of love. Dante pretty much demonstrated it to us. 673 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:51,800 It's built out of care, and I think that in some way it's a 674 00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:57,320 way that we can It's something that we can argue quite strongly today with the 675 00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,079 new developments and cognitive science, that the world is act actually made of care, 676 00:55:00,639 --> 00:55:06,519 and that the orders of cares are the orders of identities. Like there's 677 00:55:06,559 --> 00:55:10,639 there's almost no there's no difference between the identities of things, their purposes, 678 00:55:12,159 --> 00:55:15,119 and the hierarchy in which we engage with them, right, the fact that 679 00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:20,599 we care about them or not. And so you know, if you can 680 00:55:20,679 --> 00:55:22,639 get you know, and everybody knows that, right, if you can get 681 00:55:22,639 --> 00:55:25,840 a child to love something, then you've done. You don't have to do 682 00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:30,639 any more work. That's it. They'll do it themselves. And that's what 683 00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:35,239 Like I grew up, I did a lot of homeschooling with my kids, 684 00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,119 and we were kind of around homeschool people, and that was the case, 685 00:55:38,159 --> 00:55:43,800 you know, in the right context, Like a homeschool kid that loves something, 686 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,440 they'll just like they'll take off and you'll have to stop them, Like 687 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:52,000 you'll have to say, all right, stop reading now, you know that's 688 00:55:52,119 --> 00:55:53,320 enough, Like put that No, that books too old for you, don't 689 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,199 read it. You know. It's like, you know, it's like I'm 690 00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,639 fighting with my sixteen year old about which she's like, I want to read 691 00:55:58,679 --> 00:56:00,519 Dostoevski. I'm like, like, could you read C. S. Lewis 692 00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:05,159 instead, Like, let's wait until you're in your twenty three As people, 693 00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,039 you know, it's like that's the kind of thing that the love will produce, 694 00:56:07,159 --> 00:56:10,239 right, is that at some point you have that, Yeah, the 695 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:15,159 child will just take it on their own. So in just presenting that the 696 00:56:15,199 --> 00:56:17,920 truth of reality, you think that's sufficient to cultivate the virtue and love for 697 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:22,880 that reality. Well, the stories, the stories are made to be loved. 698 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,760 Yeah, And who doesn't like the story of from the White Who doesn't 699 00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,199 like Jack and the bean Stock when you're seven years old? Yeah? And 700 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,599 you don't have to know why. It just it just catches the kids, 701 00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:37,760 especially if they're not ruined with telephones, you know. But but if you 702 00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:40,840 have a kid with a bit of a healthy mind, then those stories will 703 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,639 catch them, no doubt. About it. Yeah, thank you. You 704 00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:50,760 began to touch on this a few questions ago, or your answered to a 705 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,599 few questions ago in talking about how fairy tales have affected the way that you've 706 00:56:54,639 --> 00:57:00,199 read scripture. And so my question is, a fairy tale are often more 707 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:06,679 enjoyable to read than scripture. So how can we learn to read scripture like 708 00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,039 a fairy tale. Yeah, no, I think that's a that's a great 709 00:57:09,119 --> 00:57:15,280 question, and I think that at least it's just this is a lesson that 710 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,159 I learned hard in my life with my kid because I love scripture, you 711 00:57:19,239 --> 00:57:22,679 know, it's like I live in scripture. And so I thought, you 712 00:57:22,719 --> 00:57:24,360 know, tell them these fairy tale stories, we tell them Bible stories and 713 00:57:24,639 --> 00:57:28,840 just all kind of go together. For some reason, the Bible stories were 714 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:34,440 a harder sell, you know, And I think that and I think that 715 00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:37,079 in some ways you could say that the fairy tales can be a way of 716 00:57:37,199 --> 00:57:42,760 initiating people into the language of scripture. And so they're kind of like the 717 00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,440 narthex or like an entrance to the church, right because because they have certain 718 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:52,159 fantastical elements that are exaggerated, and so you know, obviously you have dragons, 719 00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:54,960 you have you know, giant beat stocks that go up to the sky 720 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:58,719 and giants and all this stuff. There's some of that in scripture too, 721 00:57:59,039 --> 00:58:01,840 but not as in as much of a salient manner. And so I think 722 00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:06,920 that that then, you know, when your kids are quite young, the 723 00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,079 fair tales can kind of help them and then slowly move into to uh to 724 00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:14,760 scripture stories later or no, you can still tell some of the scripture stories 725 00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,639 when they're young. But I made the mistake of just starting in Genesis, 726 00:58:16,639 --> 00:58:21,559 like, don't do that, so seriously, don't don't do that, you 727 00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:24,800 know. So that's for a child, but for an adult who maybe doesn't 728 00:58:25,199 --> 00:58:30,760 you know, read scripture in a very like academic right in that sense, 729 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:36,000 well for sure that I think that I think that the fairy tale is a 730 00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,039 better model for how to read scripture then the way that the modern scholar tells 731 00:58:40,119 --> 00:58:43,480 us to read it. You know, the way that the modern tell the 732 00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:45,800 scholars tell us to read the scripture makes you hate Why would I read this? 733 00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:50,639 It's just it's just it's just a historical text about something that is actually 734 00:58:50,639 --> 00:58:52,880 not saying what it's actually saying, but it's hiding all these political things or 735 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:58,360 whatever nonsense. You know it's better to you know, the Bible itself is 736 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,760 a great like if you pull away from it and you're able to kind of 737 00:59:01,159 --> 00:59:06,400 get out of the way that the modern Bible scholars have told us what the 738 00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,239 Bible is. It has this amazing pattern from the beginning to the end. 739 00:59:09,559 --> 00:59:13,159 You know, it starts in the garden, It ends in a city with 740 00:59:13,159 --> 00:59:19,960 a garden inside. It has this great sweeping structure that moves right through you. 741 00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,360 But you have to be able to kind of pull out a little bit. 742 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:27,320 And you know, this is might will be controversial for some of you, 743 00:59:27,639 --> 00:59:34,199 But what can help us is the more fairy tale like stories around scripture. 744 00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:37,960 Sometimes a lot of the legends can help you see that, like a 745 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:42,679 lot of the extra biblical traditions, if we don't take them at the same 746 00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:45,639 level as scripture, but sometimes they can help us. See there's this amazing 747 00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:52,719 story in the Golden Legend about how Seth goes back into the garden of Eden 748 00:59:53,239 --> 00:59:58,599 and takes a shoot from the tree in the garden and then takes it out 749 00:59:58,599 --> 01:00:02,639 and plants it, and then that tree is used to make the arc of 750 01:00:02,679 --> 01:00:07,400 Noah, and then it's preserved to the ark and then that tree becomes the 751 01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:13,440 staff of Moses, and then that tree et cetera, et cetera becomes the 752 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,360 cross, and you think, like, that's this crazy story, and obviously 753 01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:23,880 that did not happen, but it's really useful for you to help you understand 754 01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:29,840 the meaning of all those things, of all those elements in scripture, you 755 01:00:29,880 --> 01:00:31,320 know. And then at the end of the world and the end the tree 756 01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:37,000 of life that's planted in the heavenly Jerusalem. So that's the great pattern of 757 01:00:37,039 --> 01:00:40,840 that story. And so there are all these interesting like midrash or extra biblical 758 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:45,480 stories, both in the Christian and Jewish tradition that can really help you see 759 01:00:45,519 --> 01:00:51,079 the fairy tale element that's already there kind of hidden in scripture. So we 760 01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:52,920 thank you. So we have three more people. I think we can get 761 01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:57,000 through the three. We're a bit over time, so we can make it 762 01:00:57,079 --> 01:01:00,000 quicker. I think we can get through these last three. I'll keep it 763 01:01:00,159 --> 01:01:04,800 very short. What do you think is the relationship between fairy tales as the 764 01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:10,920 music of the spheres and learning or teaching mathematics? Yeah, well it should 765 01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:17,280 be related. I'm sadly of those people that was made to hate mathematics in 766 01:01:17,280 --> 01:01:21,920 my life and I was just told that it was just a bunch of like, 767 01:01:22,519 --> 01:01:32,000 so what happened? Okay, it was it was just it was it 768 01:01:32,039 --> 01:01:34,880 was. It was just a bunch of things that I had to learn, 769 01:01:35,239 --> 01:01:38,159 you know, by heart. Uh. And so I never my brother though 770 01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:43,000 it's different from me. I remember he he kind of developed a very mathematical 771 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,840 mind, and he's very close to close to me into my thinking. He 772 01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:50,880 wrote a book on symbolism, and he kept telling he keep even until today, 773 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:52,360 he'll tell me like, no mathism when you think you know it's it's 774 01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:57,280 something else and so, but there clearly is. When you see how Kepler 775 01:01:57,679 --> 01:02:01,199 approaches this, these patterns, like the cosmic patterns, you know that it's 776 01:02:01,239 --> 01:02:06,760 definitely related. So hopefully all of you make your kids love math and not 777 01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:12,280 hate that for my sake at least, you know. Hi. I picked 778 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,159 up a copy of snow White for my family and for my kids' school, 779 01:02:15,199 --> 01:02:19,440 and people were so impressed by the quality of the storytelling and the art work 780 01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,360 that they asked me if I could get like a set of classroom for a 781 01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:28,159 classroom set. So when is that going to available? Yeah, like six 782 01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,800 months? Yeah, No, I know, it's it's been a very it's 783 01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:34,480 been a learning curve, is the best way to say that. Uh, 784 01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,519 you know, I hope there because you know, we we we sold out 785 01:02:37,679 --> 01:02:43,760 the first edition and the person that was running the publishing company that I own, 786 01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,920 you know, it's sad to say she just wasn't the right person and 787 01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:52,239 I had to let her go. Uh And because we literally oversold a thousand 788 01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:55,519 copies and we didn't have the books. So now there might even be people 789 01:02:55,519 --> 01:03:00,519 in this room that are waiting for a book and they've been wayading for like 790 01:03:00,719 --> 01:03:04,599 four months, five months, it's crazy. And so we have ordered books 791 01:03:04,639 --> 01:03:07,039 now they should be there in a month, and so we should reopen the 792 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:13,159 sales. But this is also a long term project. We don't want to 793 01:03:13,199 --> 01:03:15,480 rush it. So we have two more books that are being illustrated right now, 794 01:03:15,599 --> 01:03:20,679 Jack and Rapunzel, and so we're gonna we're gonna put those out in 795 01:03:20,719 --> 01:03:24,920 the fall probably. So the distribution aspect of it will hopefully we'll find a 796 01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:29,320 solution as these kind of come out. But the quality we want to maintain, 797 01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:32,679 like world class quality, that's our that's our first goal. Well, 798 01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:37,559 there also be extra copies to say God's Dog to purchase and also, yeah, 799 01:03:37,559 --> 01:03:39,480 that's also a problem. We also sold out those books. We sold 800 01:03:39,519 --> 01:03:42,599 out all our books. I don't know what to say, and we just 801 01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:45,760 yeah, it'll think. Yeah, we're also doing we're also doing graphic novels 802 01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:50,840 for those who don't know why. The two graphic novels. One it's called 803 01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:55,039 God's Dog, and it's basically it is in some ways what we're what was 804 01:03:55,079 --> 01:04:02,119 asked before. It is a way of telling of telling a token style epic 805 01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:09,400 but with the biblical world and taking all the fairy tale elements in the Christian 806 01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:13,400 tradition that people want to ignore and just putting them all in one story. 807 01:04:13,679 --> 01:04:16,000 So we have like giants and the Leviathan and Saint George and you know, 808 01:04:16,079 --> 01:04:19,280 like just and dog headed men and all this kind of crazy stuff. So 809 01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:25,519 it's coming, okay, And also, are there other people who are doing 810 01:04:25,559 --> 01:04:30,880 this if we want to provide resources for classrooms that you'd recommend that are doing 811 01:04:30,519 --> 01:04:34,599 the similar things that I'm talking that I'm trying to do. Yeah, I 812 01:04:34,639 --> 01:04:38,519 think that it's coming. I don't know if it's I think that it's going 813 01:04:38,599 --> 01:04:43,679 to happen very fast. I was you know, I knew two years ago. 814 01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,880 I had an inside it from Disney. Insider from Disney tell me that 815 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:54,000 Disney was making snow white for the hundredth anniversary of Disney. And when I 816 01:04:54,039 --> 01:04:57,719 heard that, I thought, they're not they can't do it. They can't 817 01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:02,320 make snow white. They just are not allow and so they they and and 818 01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:06,639 and so, and that's exactly what happened. They just they just basically refuse 819 01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:11,000 to make snow white as they're making snow white. So it's like she's you 820 01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,559 know, there's no prints, there's no kiss, there's no dwarves. It's 821 01:05:13,599 --> 01:05:15,800 like, what story are you telling? I don't know. It's not snow 822 01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,159 white anymore, you know. And so and so that was one of them. 823 01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:23,559 The one of the impetus for making for starting this series was to re 824 01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,920 It was just this wake up call to realize that actually people are dropping these 825 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:30,760 stories. So let's just take the take the flame, you know. And 826 01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:35,599 I think that we're going to see that happen pretty soon, because that's the 827 01:05:35,639 --> 01:05:39,400 future. I don't know what to say, it really is, you know. 828 01:05:39,599 --> 01:05:42,159 And this is something about, by the way, about Disney snow White 829 01:05:42,199 --> 01:05:46,320 that people forget, is that the idea that Disney snow white is just this 830 01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,760 old fashioned story, and this old fashioned movie is hogwash. That is not 831 01:05:50,880 --> 01:05:56,480 what was going on when Disney made that movie. They were it was the 832 01:05:56,599 --> 01:06:00,480 raging It was the rage lend of the raging twenties. It was all jazz 833 01:06:00,559 --> 01:06:04,800 and all crazy and drug use, and the animation studios that were popular were 834 01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:12,400 doing crazy, hallucinatory kind of you know. And so when snow White, 835 01:06:12,559 --> 01:06:16,159 when Disney made his version of snow White, it was a desire to recapture 836 01:06:16,599 --> 01:06:24,320 the traditional story. And he won. He won the attention game. And 837 01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,599 I think that that's where we are now. And I think that all you 838 01:06:27,719 --> 01:06:33,800 people here, that's the edge that you have because people have forgotten the Iliad. 839 01:06:34,039 --> 01:06:39,039 Oh my goodness, people don't know that story. It's like, tell 840 01:06:39,079 --> 01:06:43,559 that story. It's an amazing story. There are so many stories now everybody's 841 01:06:43,559 --> 01:06:45,320 forgotten. It's like, tell the story and people will love it because it's 842 01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:53,880 amazing. So the opportunity is immense. Two quick questions. Two quick questions. 843 01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,320 I run a k through a I read the snow White. I thought 844 01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,360 it was amazing. I noticed two patterns that I wanted to ask you about. 845 01:07:00,719 --> 01:07:05,519 When snow White's going through her purification journey, you have those beautiful words 846 01:07:05,519 --> 01:07:11,079 about the thorns her journey, and then the book ends that way with the 847 01:07:11,199 --> 01:07:18,239 villain enduring her own purification. But I noticed that the literary pattern was repeated. 848 01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:21,519 Could you tell me a little bit more about that, because I want 849 01:07:21,559 --> 01:07:29,159 to pass it on to the students at my school properly. Well, it's 850 01:07:29,199 --> 01:07:32,480 a long it's it's it's going to be a long story. And so so 851 01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:38,400 it's because what happens at the end of the story in our version of snow 852 01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,760 White is that the witch it ends up in the Dwarf's cottage. So she 853 01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,960 leaves that, she actually leaves the castle, and she's kind of forgiven by 854 01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:48,519 snow White, and she leaves the castle and she ends up living in the 855 01:07:48,519 --> 01:07:51,760 forest, in the in the in the Dwarf's cottage. And so that's a 856 01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:58,559 promise of her story. So it's not the story isn't over, Okay. 857 01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:02,639 I just really enjoyed that. And then the romance that's blostomy, the words 858 01:08:02,639 --> 01:08:06,000 that you use. It spoke to me of song of songs, do not 859 01:08:06,079 --> 01:08:09,840 stir love before its time? Was that? Yeah, that was definitely on 860 01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:12,880 purpose. Okay. So one of the things we wanted to do one of 861 01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,520 the things we wanted to do in the in the in the in the fairy 862 01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:23,600 Tales is actually use use scripture to solve some of the narrative problems. That's 863 01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,840 what I saw, and that's how I want to teach it to the kids. 864 01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:30,079 But I really wanted to make sure I was on the right track, 865 01:08:30,279 --> 01:08:32,479 or you're definitely on the right track, because I really believe that Actually, 866 01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:35,439 like I said, it's aid scripture is. Scripture is higher than the fairy 867 01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:41,520 tales, and they actually offer some solutions to the fairy tales that because there 868 01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:45,920 are some narrative problems in the story, and some of the postmodern people pointing 869 01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:48,640 it out, you know, we get annoyed with it, but sometimes they 870 01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:53,720 might have a point. It's like, you know, what gives the right 871 01:08:53,920 --> 01:08:58,119 of the prince to kiss the white? Like what is going on there? 872 01:08:58,279 --> 01:09:03,520 It is a little odd, you know. So and so what we did 873 01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:09,000 in our version is that the snow the Prince meets snow White at the outset 874 01:09:09,640 --> 01:09:15,479 in the in the castle and he he he's attracted to her, you know, 875 01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:17,560 and and he's a little too forward with her, and he says, 876 01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:21,199 like, come with me, I'll take you into my kingdom, like basically, 877 01:09:21,239 --> 01:09:24,760 well, you know, it's a well, it's a rapture, like 878 01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:27,880 I'll take you away, and he comes to kiss her, and he she 879 01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:30,880 says, do not awaken love before it's time, which is quoted from the 880 01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:36,439 Song of Songs. And then at the end of the story, then he 881 01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:42,039 basically remembers. We don't even say that he remembers. But she told him 882 01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:45,920 what to do, right, she she's the one who told him what to 883 01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:47,840 do, and that would happen. But it's like, but it's scripture that 884 01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:50,760 is kind of giving you the key. We do that a few times in 885 01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:54,920 the story. There's like especially with the Apple too. We tried to kind 886 01:09:54,920 --> 01:09:58,439 of show how the story of Adam and Eve is actually the key to that, 887 01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:00,520 to the to the story. I thought it was magnificent and I've been 888 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:03,840 waiting for something like this. So thank you, thank you, I'm happy 889 01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:09,840 for you. Thank you well, Jonathan. What a great way to kick 890 01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:14,560 off symposium. We're talking about conversation start with story makes a lot of sense 891 01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:16,920 to me. We really appreciate your time here and we hope you have a 892 01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,520 chance to be with us and stop by some of the breakout sessions, some 893 01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:24,479 of them are quite relevant to this and we'll make sure that we get you 894 01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:35,600 into one of the sessions on mathematics. All right. If you enjoyed these 895 01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:41,079 videos and podcasts, please go to the symbolic world dot com website and see 896 01:10:41,119 --> 01:10:45,199 how you can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers with perks. 897 01:10:45,439 --> 01:10:47,680 There are apparel and books to purchase, So go to the symbolic world 898 01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:49,880 dot com and thank you for your support.