1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:08,960 We understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol, 2 00:00:09,519 --> 00:00:13,839 an idea. The population of atheists this country is going through the rule, 3 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:19,920 rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If I tell the truth, 4 00:00:20,039 --> 00:00:23,879 it's because I tell the truth, not because I put my hand on 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,879 a book and made a wish and working together for a more rational world. 6 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:33,320 Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness. Truth Usian wisdom 7 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:40,520 will come to you that way. Assume nothing, question everything, and start 8 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:57,079 thinking. This is the Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews. If you 9 00:00:57,159 --> 00:01:02,479 are anywhere near Springfield, Missouri, on the fifteenth of November, I Am 10 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:07,319 going to be hosted by Springfield Freethinkers to come out and give a presentation. 11 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:11,560 This is brand new, by the way. It's called Seth Andrews versus God? 12 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:19,359 Who is the better intelligent Designer? And I've got some ideas I'm just 13 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,680 saying. So if you want to come out, it's going to be a 14 00:01:21,719 --> 00:01:26,599 great night's all are welcome. For tickets and information, you can just define 15 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:36,959 the link on my website Seth Andrews dot com slash events. Here is just 16 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:42,040 a tiny window into what my life was like in a Puritan family. It 17 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:48,959 was nineteen eighty six, nineteen eighty seven, the film Children of a Lesser 18 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:53,239 God had just released. This is a wonderful movie starring William Hurt and Marley 19 00:01:53,400 --> 00:02:01,400 Mattlin. And her character is deaf. She works like a janitorial job at 20 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:07,719 a school. She is a broken person. She has been tremendously traumatized in 21 00:02:07,799 --> 00:02:12,719 her life, partially because of her disability and how she was treated. And 22 00:02:12,759 --> 00:02:16,919 there's a scene in the film where after hours, she goes into where the 23 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,759 pool is. There's a swimming pool, and she strips off her clothes and 24 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:27,520 she submerges herself in the water. And this is symbolism, right. She 25 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,159 is a person who is raw, she is exposed, and she is essentially 26 00:02:31,319 --> 00:02:36,879 to a degree, living in a world without sound. So the scene has 27 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:43,680 real power in so many ways. And I'm home, I am watching this. 28 00:02:43,879 --> 00:02:47,759 Mom and dadd are in the room, and that scene happens on the 29 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:57,080 television. There is Marlee Matlin's bare ass underwater in the pool, and my 30 00:02:57,199 --> 00:03:01,000 father was beside himself the TV. He was immediately shut off. And I 31 00:03:01,159 --> 00:03:06,240 get the sermon, you get this is new to you can't show that. 32 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,280 My father used to say it like this. He'd say she was in the 33 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:15,840 buff, which I guess in the buff means you're nude or naked. But 34 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,360 this was like sinful material. There was no beauty in it. There was 35 00:03:21,039 --> 00:03:25,120 no deeper meaning to be learned about, sort of the raw nature of the 36 00:03:25,199 --> 00:03:29,159 exposed human self. None of that. No, no, no, he 37 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,280 just saw skin. He flipped out, and he didn't want that video in 38 00:03:32,479 --> 00:03:38,960 his house. Oh, I'm sure he had wished for a filter. We're 39 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,240 going to talk about a bunch of that kind of thing today. We're going 40 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:47,080 to talk a lot about sex. That's how my mother used to say the 41 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:53,479 word fox. Her face would just sort of contort like it was painful. 42 00:03:53,759 --> 00:04:02,240 And Natalie's always ribbing me because I'm one of five kids, and so Natalie's 43 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,919 like, well, you're one of five, so your parents were getting it 44 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:10,680 on somewhere. I'm like, nah, no, nan la la la la 45 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:15,920 la. Don't talk about that. But I mean, I guess it happened 46 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,600 unless I was born in a tube or a lab or whatever. But my 47 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:28,879 parents were not affectionate. They didn't express any physical affection. They were intellectual 48 00:04:28,959 --> 00:04:34,279 partners. And this sort of fed into a sense of shame about physicality, 49 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:41,199 about sensuality, about sexuality. That was part of the temperature of my home, 50 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,199 and it's also part of the temperature of many Puritan cultures, high control 51 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,759 religions, especially. So we're going to talk about what my friend, doctor 52 00:04:50,879 --> 00:04:58,680 Darryl Ray calls nanny software. We're going to talk about pornography, sex addiction. 53 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,560 I'm going to bring in a clinical psychologist and sex expert to get into 54 00:05:02,639 --> 00:05:06,959 that. We're just gonna we're going to do some stuff that would have definitely 55 00:05:08,399 --> 00:05:14,839 had my father reaching for the off button on the television. I had some 56 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,519 experience with this kind of nanny software back in the early days. This was 57 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:25,959 back in the nineteen nineties. I was a Christian radio host and I was 58 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,560 asked to endorse a client. This client was pitching a service, a filter, 59 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:36,480 a morality filter, designed to help you navigate the wild west of this 60 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:41,759 new thing called the World Wide Web. The service I was endorsing was called 61 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:47,000 Integrity Online, and the commercials I did for the service were what you might 62 00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:51,920 expect, this wonderful software or I don't know if it was a browser filter. 63 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:58,040 It's been so long, but this will block out violent material, filthy 64 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,959 language, and certainly the most important thing, it will lock out porn. 65 00:06:03,399 --> 00:06:10,519 Now did this service work? And the real question I know you want to 66 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:15,560 ask me is did you ever test it to make sure it worked? Hell? 67 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:19,240 No, I didn't test it, not because I was mister clean, 68 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:27,240 but because I was terrified that if I tested it by typing something naughty into 69 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,920 a search engine, it would set off an alarm at the client. They 70 00:06:30,959 --> 00:06:35,040 would notify my employer, who would in turn thank me for my years of 71 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:41,639 service and escort me out of my career. We had just had a guy 72 00:06:41,639 --> 00:06:46,319 who worked at one of our sisters stations in a different state and they found 73 00:06:46,399 --> 00:06:53,160 porn that was downloaded to his office computer and they fired him on the spot. 74 00:06:53,199 --> 00:06:57,360 I mean they found out and they said sorry, you are terminated. 75 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,560 And he cried and he apologized and prayed and he begged, please don't fire 76 00:07:01,639 --> 00:07:05,800 me, but boom, he was gone, just like that. So the 77 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:12,959 whole point of filtering and monitoring and screening and even reporting was to keep this 78 00:07:13,079 --> 00:07:18,480 kind of thing from happening. The problem was Integrity Online was horrible at knowing 79 00:07:18,519 --> 00:07:25,600 the difference between what would have been considered an evil site and a legitimate site. 80 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:31,399 We got complaints across the board, and Integrity Online blocked me at almost 81 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:36,519 every turn I would try to go to a mainstream news page, access denied, 82 00:07:38,279 --> 00:07:47,680 lifestyle and entertainment online access denied, trivia and game sites access denied. 83 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,560 I'm sure even decades later, this kind of thing is a problem now, 84 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:59,839 and I think it's because these developers simply can't keep up with the massively complicated 85 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:05,439 nuances of the web. Software code has no idea about context. It didn't 86 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:13,959 understand intent. That couldn't know the difference between a kink in somebody's armor or 87 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:20,399 a kink in somebody's bedroom. But the whole concept just roots in moral panic 88 00:08:20,959 --> 00:08:26,000 about the temptations of the outside world. James One talks about tempted people. 89 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:33,639 They're dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed Luke twenty two forty. 90 00:08:33,759 --> 00:08:39,799 Pray that you will not fall into temptation, Matthew chapter six, verse thirteen, 91 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:46,080 and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. 92 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,600 I find it interesting a lot of religious people think that temptation or being 93 00:08:50,759 --> 00:08:56,759 tempted is a sin, like the temptation. I am tempted then I've sinned. 94 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,480 And here's what I mean. Let's say that I am not married, 95 00:09:01,759 --> 00:09:07,440 I am outside of wedlock, as they like to say. But I've got 96 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,679 a girlfriend, and my girlfriend and I are alone in the house. We're 97 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,559 both tempted to have sex. We don't have sex, but we are tempted, 98 00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:24,639 and then we resist the temptation. However, before we both separate in 99 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:28,919 our holiness and then go home for a cold shower in some prayer time, 100 00:09:28,759 --> 00:09:33,240 we had just for a second really been considering it. We'd thought about it. 101 00:09:33,279 --> 00:09:37,879 Wouldn't that be something if we could have sex? Had we still not 102 00:09:39,159 --> 00:09:45,720 sinned? Hadn't I sinned? Matthew five? Anyone who looks at a woman 103 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:52,879 with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. I had looked 104 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:56,240 at her with lust. But wait a minute, I resisted the temptation. 105 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,919 I got out of there, didn't have sex, but I was still a 106 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,799 sinner. I didn't commit adultery, but I was still an adulterer. Does 107 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:13,039 that mean temptation? Being tempted considering the temptation is itself a sin? The 108 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:20,360 Book of Hebrews says that Christ himself was tempted in all things did he just 109 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:24,399 express no desire to give in? Or did he take a moment and say, 110 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:28,519 hmm, what if? Right? I mean, he was one hundred 111 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:35,720 percent God, but he was also somehow one hundred percent man. Christ tempted 112 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:41,000 in all things. The Bible says, flee temptation, but Christ stayed there. 113 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:46,919 So was he a sinner? Jesus seemed awfully prone to surrounding himself with 114 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:54,000 forbidden fruit. Did his eyes ever wander? Did he ever fantasize? Was 115 00:10:54,039 --> 00:10:58,919 he sitting at his ancient web browser wondering what might happen to him if he 116 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:03,279 typed the words hot harlot. All he had to do would be to pull 117 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:11,759 up his ancient search engine Jerusaleugal and then click download photo. Download speeds for 118 00:11:11,879 --> 00:11:16,480 naked pictures would have been really slow back then, but he's Jesus, so 119 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:22,960 he could have sped that up. So tempting. Jesus was tempted in all 120 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:30,200 things, just as we are tempted with all that carnality today, and lo 121 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:37,240 and behold, accountability software is here to save the day. The website for 122 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:43,360 Accountable to you, it is a marital aid, if you'll pardon the expression, 123 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,840 It is a preventative dongle for your fondle. Okay, let me play 124 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:56,279 you just a little bit of the website video about how accountable to You works. 125 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,799 So what can you do to help encourage your family's purity in this digital 126 00:11:58,799 --> 00:12:05,360 aid? Introducing accountable to You software for all of the major operating systems that 127 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:11,679 facilitates openness, transparency, and integrity between individuals and families through comprehensive, easy 128 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:18,039 to read reporting. How does it work? Simply install accountable to You on 129 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,159 your laptops, desktops, and mobile devices, then set an accountability partner for 130 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,639 each device. For example, you might want to be the accountability partner for 131 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,080 your kids while setting your devices to report to your spouse or someone in your 132 00:12:31,159 --> 00:12:37,120 church. Accountability partners will then receive daily or weekly reports on device activity. 133 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,480 Our sophisticated system can also send instant text alerts if something objectionable is detected, 134 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:50,360 so partners can check in immediately. Okay, beyond the fact that these people 135 00:12:50,759 --> 00:12:54,840 need a sound engineer, somebody who knows how to properly mix sound so that 136 00:12:54,879 --> 00:12:58,679 the music doesn't drown out the narrator, what do we take away from the 137 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,879 c But I'm not going to focus on children. I think that's a different 138 00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:07,480 conversation right now. I'm talking about the age of consent. Crowd. We 139 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:16,240 choose an accountability partner. Accountable to you says it will link your spouse to 140 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:24,759 everything you do online, because nothing says relational trust like being monitored twenty four 141 00:13:24,799 --> 00:13:33,759 to seven quick digression. I actually knew a couple where the wife would do 142 00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:37,840 this to her husband. They would sit down at dinner. I heard about 143 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,559 this from their kids, by the way, their grown children, who were 144 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:45,159 kind of like, oh my god. But they would sit down at dinner 145 00:13:45,159 --> 00:13:48,919 and she would hold out her hand and he would be expected to hand over 146 00:13:50,039 --> 00:13:54,879 his phone, and she would just go through it, checking all of his 147 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:58,519 text who's talking to him? Checking all of his photographs, checking his browser 148 00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:03,159 history. I guess, And I thought to myself, you know, I 149 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:09,320 really appreciate the idea of openness and transparency. Right. We don't want we 150 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:16,159 don't want people who live secret, second or even third lives. But is 151 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:22,759 this how a healthy relationship works? Now? I'm not talking about somebody who 152 00:14:22,799 --> 00:14:28,279 sees a lot of red flags. You know, you have genuine, sincere 153 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:35,360 suspicion that there may be infidelity going on or there's there are lies being told, 154 00:14:35,039 --> 00:14:39,279 abuses being covered up in some way, abuses of trust. I think 155 00:14:39,279 --> 00:14:41,759 that's a different conversation. You know, this is I'm not talking about the 156 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:48,120 CSI where you are having to do some real digging, and maybe that does 157 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:52,120 include private conversations that have been kept out of your view. I think that's 158 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,159 different. I'm talking about a relationship that is defined by distrust. You sit 159 00:14:56,279 --> 00:15:00,919 down and they say, give me your phone, I'm going to go through 160 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,320 everything. Give me all your passwords. I'm going to go through everything. 161 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:11,159 Is that a healthy thing? Like a manual version of accountable to You, 162 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:18,120 which sends out reports daily and weekly to the surveillance team, your accountability partners. 163 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,960 Oh, you want to try to browse the web anonymously in incognito mode. 164 00:15:26,039 --> 00:15:31,159 You try to modify the software, uninstalled the service? Uh uh alarm 165 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:37,399 bells go off? Big brother knows and I think, most ironically, at 166 00:15:37,399 --> 00:15:43,840 the bottom of the features page of this surveillance service website, they have the 167 00:15:43,879 --> 00:15:50,159 words committed to your freedom. Accountable to You. That'll cost you about one 168 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:58,840 hundred and fifty dollars a year. Here's another one, ever, accountable same 169 00:15:58,879 --> 00:16:06,000 stuff. Lead me Not is another one. It lets you actually note what 170 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:11,879 your specific temptations are. What do you struggle with, what's your inclination, 171 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:17,279 your desire, your lust, your focus, your fetish, and lead me 172 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:22,279 Not gives you extra material for those specific temptations and triggers. Do you feel 173 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:29,840 triggered to sin? There's a button on the website. I'm triggered and this 174 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:34,720 is a bad signal to your accountability partner, whoever that person is. They 175 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:41,200 see this thing. Ah, Bob's being triggered, Kate is being triggered. 176 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:45,440 Holy shit, I need to jump in and save the day. If you 177 00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:52,080 don't have an accountability partner, lead me Not, We'll find a person for 178 00:16:52,159 --> 00:16:55,720 you. And I am not making this up. The website says it might 179 00:16:55,840 --> 00:17:03,759 even be Jason Matthew, the founder of the company. If you're more self 180 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,960 sustaining, if you trust yourself just a little bit more, here's a service, 181 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:18,279 a self control service called Plucky p luck Y. The default setting on 182 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:30,160 Plucky blocks all images and all videos on all websites, no media, no 183 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:36,720 media can get through. And then wouldn't this be a joy. You have 184 00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:44,279 to go in and you have to specifically designate and allow each image or video 185 00:17:45,519 --> 00:17:52,079 I guess this may keep you too busy to stream Quentin Tarmantino films and pictures 186 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,799 of bear boobs. You just don't have the time. You're busy allowing the 187 00:17:55,839 --> 00:18:00,759 good content. Covenant Eyes, I think maybe the most popular service of this 188 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:07,640 kind. Covenant Eye says it as one point five million users and for just 189 00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:15,039 sixteen ninety nine a month, you can experience quote victory over porn, and 190 00:18:15,079 --> 00:18:22,240 that's the main focus for Covenant Eyes. Porn. The homepage says porn creates 191 00:18:22,519 --> 00:18:30,200 shame, shame fuels porn usage. And I think this is hugely interesting because 192 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,000 Covenant Eyes does not mention what the source of the shame is. Right, 193 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:40,680 they want to install the software, but who installed the shame. Now, 194 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:45,440 let me play you a clip from three geniuses who were pitching Covenant Eyes on 195 00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:52,759 their show The Authentic Christian Podcast. This is on YouTube. The hosts are 196 00:18:52,839 --> 00:18:57,519 Aaron Gallagher, Scott Ingram and Tucker Wallace. So they were talking about purity 197 00:18:57,599 --> 00:19:04,599 software account of bild the option sexual purbity, especially against porn. Here is 198 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:14,480 a quote unquote solution to keep yourself from having sex outside of marriage. Check 199 00:19:14,519 --> 00:19:18,559 out this advice. One thing that's that I want to bring some encouragement. 200 00:19:18,559 --> 00:19:21,640 Is that I said, I know sometimes when you look for look forward to 201 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,279 marriage, especially in college, you're like, I'll watch porn for a while, 202 00:19:23,319 --> 00:19:27,240 then I quit it. So what I'm saying is that God designed those 203 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:33,799 sexual desires for marriage, and and like sometimes we think that God's going to 204 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:37,160 take away from me. He's the one that designs sex and the enjoyment for 205 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:41,880 marriage, and so the people in the world are twisting it. Wait for 206 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:47,720 your wife or your husband, and just a summary of five Proverbs five eighteen 207 00:19:47,799 --> 00:19:51,759 through nineteen's just like, let your found me blessed and rejoice with the wife's 208 00:19:51,839 --> 00:19:55,000 of your youth as a loving deer and a graceful doe. Let her breast 209 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,400 satisfy you all times, and always be enraptured with her love and wooden versions 210 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:03,240 as intoxicated. Say all that to say that there is like all that stuff 211 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,319 that's been twisted. You can fully enjoy your marriage with sex like it's there's 212 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:11,240 a place for it. And guess what I mean, I'm gonna say, 213 00:20:11,279 --> 00:20:14,960 you don't have to be thirty. I think our culture is really I'm I 214 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,400 personally think the devil one in this way too, where he basically makes people 215 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,839 think that you shouldn't get married till you're thirty, because if you get married, 216 00:20:21,839 --> 00:20:22,759 you know you want to wait, you to live your life, you 217 00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:25,400 want to go to high school, you want to go to college, you 218 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,480 want to show you're while to I think it's stupid. I mean, yeah, 219 00:20:27,799 --> 00:20:30,680 my wife and I didn't get married till later. That's because it didn't 220 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,640 meet her till later. But like my advice would be me too, Yeah, 221 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,160 that's that's better. My advice would be, don't wait till you're twenty 222 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,839 five, thirty forty to get married if you have it, if you don't 223 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,720 have to, because you understand commitment in what the relationship requires, and it's 224 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,079 a godly, godly in marriage. That's it. Yeah, I mean absolutely. 225 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,960 I mean that's why we wonder why people are struggling with pornography. And 226 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,640 you're like, well, yeah, you want a guy to wait till he's 227 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,079 twenty eight to be married. What do you expect? Okay, am I 228 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:03,559 the only one who brain went to that place when he read the verse let 229 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:08,200 your fountain be blessed? Is that what that means? I never thought about 230 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:14,960 it before this moment. Let your fountain be blessed sounds like, I mean's 231 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,519 it sounds like? Doesn't it? Is that what it means? I don't 232 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:21,799 know. Am I the only one? I guess I just need validation. 233 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:27,680 I also thought it was ironic that this guy was chiding people for waiting till 234 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,720 they were almost thirty to get married, and then he said that he had 235 00:21:32,759 --> 00:21:37,839 been older when he got married. Someone explained this to me. Anyway, 236 00:21:38,279 --> 00:21:44,680 I sent a message out to the Thinking Atheist Facebook community asking if anybody had 237 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,839 ever had their own experiences with this type of software. I had a guy 238 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,480 named David. He said, my employer has a really good one, but 239 00:21:53,599 --> 00:22:00,920 it's less aimed at morality and more at protecting their computer network and keeping their 240 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:06,640 employees from wasting company time watching movies or playing video games. So that's kind 241 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,640 of a different animal. Danny said, I used an app once I forget 242 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:19,039 the name from the website xxxchurch dot com. Now I have not clicked that 243 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,680 link. I'm not recommending you click that link. I don't know what that 244 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,400 link is. I'm just reading. I'm just reading what it is. It 245 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,720 monitored sites you visit in the background, and every two or four weeks, 246 00:22:32,839 --> 00:22:36,880 depending on your preference, it would email a list of the questionable sites you 247 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:44,119 visit to an accountability partner you designate. The problem was that the software parameters 248 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,440 of what was bad were so loose it was adding lots of harmless sites to 249 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:55,519 the list that made it worthless to use. Laurie said, Utah is full 250 00:22:55,559 --> 00:22:57,880 of crap like this. There used to be a company, I think, 251 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,759 clean Flicks, that would edit out all the swearing, violence or sex in 252 00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:08,279 a movie. Well, I just did a quick Google search and Laurie is 253 00:23:08,319 --> 00:23:15,799 absolutely right. The company Clean Flicks founded in Utah back in two thousand. 254 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:25,519 They rented and sold commercially released DVDs and VHS tapes from which they edited content 255 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:33,200 they considered inappropriate. Now this is a copyright nightmare. They're grabbing Hollywood movies 256 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,960 without permission. They just grabbed them, and they edited those films and then 257 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:44,160 released them on their own site for rental and for sale. And of course 258 00:23:44,279 --> 00:23:49,759 major film studios were pissed and they sued Clean Flicks in two thousand and two. 259 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:56,480 They were closed by court order in two thousand and six, but they 260 00:23:56,599 --> 00:24:03,759 reopened the next year with a website called Movies you Can Trust. They no 261 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,559 longer offered edited movies. I guess it was more of a list of tens 262 00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:14,160 of thousands of films that they had reviewed, and then they compiled a database 263 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:21,119 of a thousand films that they felt met their family friendly criteria clean flicks, 264 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:27,160 which became movies you can trust. Andrea sent an email she said, when 265 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:33,680 I was a kid, my parents got a TV guardian. It would automatically 266 00:24:33,839 --> 00:24:38,839 mute the sound whenever a bad word was on the screen via closed captions, 267 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,599 and it would show the words on the screen so you could read it, 268 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:48,960 replacing the bad word with a good word. So I used to watch the 269 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:55,640 old Pride and Prejudice BBC series, and it would change sex as in talking 270 00:24:55,640 --> 00:25:03,079 about gender to hugs, and watching it would change Puss in boots to whimp 271 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,160 in boots. It was a bloody nightmare, but at the time I thought 272 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:14,640 it was wonderful because I was completely brainwashed. In this same house, my 273 00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:19,839 stepdad would also cover the screen with a book whenever a scantily clad woman was 274 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:26,240 on the screen for himself, apparently because it was just me and my mom 275 00:25:26,319 --> 00:25:33,599 at the time. I want to talk about sex addiction. I was interested 276 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:40,680 to learn that the diagnostic and statistical Manual of Mental Disorders does not list or 277 00:25:40,839 --> 00:25:48,519 recognize sex addiction as a real disorder, and that sounds counterintuitive to me. 278 00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:52,599 I mean, you see people who are they're obsessed in an unhealthy way, 279 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:57,559 or they're checking out of their own relationships because they're over here watching porn or 280 00:25:57,599 --> 00:26:00,960 whatever, and I wanted to talk about that. I have an actual clinical 281 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:07,720 psychologist and sex therapist. His name is doctor David Lay, and he's going 282 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,799 to talk to us about sex addiction, the use of pornography by both men 283 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:18,720 and women, and we're going to talk about nanny software that's coming up next. 284 00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:27,519 Glad you're here. Thank you so much for listening, and thank you 285 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:33,880 so much for your support of this show on Paytreon. I see we are 286 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,160 at around seven hundred patrons right now, and I've been working to try to 287 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,640 get this show back to where we were pre covid, which was a little 288 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,480 over nine hundred, and if you'd like to support the show, paytreon dot 289 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:55,359 com slash Seth Andrews. I want to talk a little bit about sex addiction, 290 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:02,279 especially in the church. There's so much content video, lectures, conferences, 291 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,519 certainly books that talk about breaking sex addiction. I want to talk to 292 00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:12,880 someone who is a clinical psychologist, a certified sex therapist, supervisor, an 293 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:18,079 author, and a guy who has talked about these claims regarding sex addiction. 294 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,319 Doctor David le thanks for coming man, good to talk to you. Thanks 295 00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:26,319 for having me, Seth. May I call you, David? Call you? 296 00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:30,000 Yeah? Okay, I want to respect the title. Okay. Yeah. 297 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,400 There's so many people who call me bad words that just call me David 298 00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:38,880 is good to go. I'm sure you're an agent of debauchery and immorality, 299 00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:45,079 lust sin. You know, you're a sort of a crusader for the carnal. 300 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,759 Have you had these types of interactions out there? Yeah? I mean 301 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:53,079 my favorite are the people that say, simply by virtue of me challenging the 302 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:59,000 validity of the concept of sex addiction, I must therefore be a sex addict 303 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:04,119 myself. Oh thou dost protest too much of tours of course? Yeah. 304 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:11,559 The fact that there's legitimate scientific and clinical concerns here, that doesn't matter. 305 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:17,720 And interestingly, the reverse also doesn't matter, because it turns out that religious 306 00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:22,640 therapists are far more likely to diagnose sex addiction than lay therapists, and the 307 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:30,920 overwhelming majority of self identified sex addiction therapists are themselves self identified sex addicts. 308 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:36,559 Neither of those issues apparently seem to matter in terms of the validity of sex 309 00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:41,079 addiction. But me not believing in sex addiction clearly means I'm just a proverb. 310 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:45,240 Well, before I do my due diligence as a host and give you 311 00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:49,000 some pushback or play Devil's advocate, I'm going to ask the questions I wonder 312 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,880 if some of our audience members and I have about all this, Why is 313 00:28:55,000 --> 00:29:02,920 sex addiction not a thing? Well, for a variety of reasons. The 314 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,720 research at this point is really really clear that people who self identify as sex 315 00:29:07,759 --> 00:29:11,000 addicts or people who get labeled as sex addicts, don't actually have more sex 316 00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:15,119 than anybody else, but they feel worse about it now. The reason that 317 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:22,440 they feel worse about it is overwhelmingly due to a moral incongruence, typically religiously 318 00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:29,559 based. These are people who grew up with pretty strict religious sexual values around, 319 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:34,799 for instance, heterosexuality, monogamy, not masturbating. Now as adults, 320 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:40,839 they find themselves interested in sex and sexual behaviors that they were taught made them 321 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,440 a bad person. They feel bad about it. They engage in the behaviors, 322 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,799 and that afterwards they feel guilt and shame, and because they are struggling 323 00:29:49,079 --> 00:29:55,480 to prevent themselves from engaging in these behaviors, they feel like they are out 324 00:29:55,559 --> 00:29:59,640 of control. But the feeling of being out of control is different from actually 325 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,400 being out of control. So the reason that the concept of sex addiction is 326 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:10,400 just not a good scientific or clinical label is that it points us at the 327 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,240 wrong target. It points us at the target of the sexual behavior. You're 328 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,039 a sex addict, you need to stop having so much sex. Well, 329 00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:22,160 wait a minute, if this guy isn't having that much sex, and the 330 00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:26,359 problem is the moral conflict, we need to deal with and examine that moral 331 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:33,000 conflict. The label of sex addiction is what I call a sexy shiny object. 332 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,640 It distracts us, unfortunately, from dealing with and addressing the real conflicts 333 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:44,720 are going on here. Well, let's say there's a partnership, a romantic 334 00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:52,960 couple, and one of the two is always thinking about sex. They are 335 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,960 masturbating, how many times a day, they've got pornography on the computer. 336 00:30:57,119 --> 00:31:03,799 They seem compulsive, they're obsessed with sex in that way, and the partner, 337 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:08,279 their partner has real concern like this doesn't feel healthy? Would that not 338 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,960 be a sex addiction of some kind? First and foremost, it is what 339 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,400 we call a desired discrepancy. It is one individual being in a relationship with 340 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,200 somebody who does not share their level of sexual interest. So I've treated that 341 00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:30,640 couple multiple times, and oftentimes, as one partner becomes less and less interested 342 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:36,839 in sex, more and more resistant to engaging in sex, the other partner 343 00:31:37,119 --> 00:31:41,680 paradoxically increases their focus on sex because it's not what they're getting. Because as 344 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:47,559 they run into the brick wall of getting their sexual needs fulfilled or affirmed, 345 00:31:48,119 --> 00:31:51,440 they want it more and more and more, And we end up in this 346 00:31:51,519 --> 00:31:56,119 situation where the two partners in the couple are battling with each other over sexuality, 347 00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:02,279 when really this is coming out of the the unfortunate situation that many people 348 00:32:02,359 --> 00:32:09,839 get married and commit to monogamous relationships without ever really contemplating the fact that they 349 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,440 may end up with different sexual desires or interests in their partner. And how 350 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,200 are they going to deal with that? Well, if I can jump in, 351 00:32:19,279 --> 00:32:22,920 doctor lay quickly, what would you say to somebody who countered that this 352 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,440 sounds like partner blaming? You know, you're not giving me what I need, 353 00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:29,920 So I'm going to go over here, and hell, it might even 354 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,759 result in extramarital activities and fidelity, etc. What would you say to that 355 00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:43,759 sexuality occurs within a system, and the match between partners on these sexual variables 356 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:49,400 impacts how the sexuality is experienced by both partners. So, for instance, 357 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:57,240 couples that watch pornography together have healthier sexual lives and more satisfying sexual relationships. 358 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,680 But couples where one partner is watchingnography in secret from the other partner, or 359 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:07,960 where one partner is watching more pornography than the other partner tend to be relationships 360 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:13,880 with a sexual mismatch that are sexually unsatisfied and sexually unhappy. But the pornography 361 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:22,519 is an expression of unmet sexual need that the couple typically is not effectively negotiating 362 00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:29,920 or discussing figuring out how they're going to address this discrepancy between them. I'm 363 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,640 going to continue my church lady questions for just a second, because I hear 364 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:38,680 them so often. Pornography distorts notions of healthy sexuality. I mean, you 365 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:45,839 see all kinds of stuff play outs in porn videos, porn movies, porn 366 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:52,960 in prints, and there are many concerns inside and outside of religion that porn 367 00:33:52,119 --> 00:33:58,240 creates unhealthy notions of what sex is, of what consent is, etc. 368 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,440 Does porn stort healthy sex? You know? I mean the biggest problem with 369 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,719 pornography is that it presents an unrealistic idea of how quickly the plumber is going 370 00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:13,519 to show up when you have I mean, in porn, you know, 371 00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:16,079 the sync breaks and five minutes later the plumber is there. I mean, 372 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,960 holy crap. Yeah, But I mean one of the concerns is is that 373 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:28,320 how do everyday people compete with the perfectly shapely, sexy, red hot porn 374 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,239 star. You know, how does how does real life compete with that? 375 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,599 Yeah? Pornography is fantasy, and we all have to be clear about that. 376 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:42,559 The problem and the challenge is that the people most affected negatively by pornography 377 00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:45,679 are the people who believe that it is a realistic depiction of sex. So 378 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:52,920 people who are inadequately educated around sexuality look at pornography and think that's how real 379 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:59,400 sex works. They don't understand that pornography doesn't show the negotiation, the aftercare, 380 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,519 the prep, the lube, the discussions, the sex education that performers 381 00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:08,480 have in order to engage in these behaviors. They think, oh, you 382 00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:13,920 know, you just jump in and pound away. But good sex takes a 383 00:35:13,639 --> 00:35:20,320 lot more than that. But pornography is a fantasy that we watch to relieve 384 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:24,599 and escape from some of the burden of real world sex. Real world sex 385 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:30,039 takes work. The same thing is true of romance novels, for instance. 386 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:37,679 They depict a fantasy world where people engage in behaviors and relationships are not possible 387 00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:42,440 in the real world. The same is true in Hollywood, I mean the 388 00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:47,679 X Men movies. These are fantasies and we watch them to escape from reality 389 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:55,079 for a little while. The problem, again is when people are watching pornography 390 00:35:55,599 --> 00:36:02,039 and thinking that they can translate those elements into the real world without all of 391 00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:07,840 those components like negotiation, preparation, discussion, integrities, respect, et cetera. 392 00:36:08,559 --> 00:36:15,360 We can mitigate the potential harms of pornography on relationships and on young people 393 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:22,239 by effectively addressing sex education. Unfortunately, our country has engaged in grossly, 394 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:28,280 frankly, in my opinion, criminal neglect of sexual education. And then when 395 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,440 people go to pornography and learn lessons that we don't that are unhealthy. We 396 00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:37,559 blame pornography. Pornography was never intended to be sex education. It became that 397 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:44,679 way because we allowed a gap to exist, and then we, ohso conveniently 398 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:50,480 blame pornography instead of taking responsibility for our failure to address these critical issues. 399 00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:55,360 I remember being a teenager my parents, you know, hardcore Bible believing Puritan 400 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,440 types, and you know, sex was a dirty word. And if it 401 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,559 had not been for cinemax, I mean, you know, just like, 402 00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:04,920 oh, well, that's what that looks like. I mean, now, 403 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,920 is that typical? Dude? I want to get into these accountability services nanny 404 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,719 software type stuff in just a second. But I'm just fascinated that the very 405 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:19,719 puritan United States, especially the churched portion of it, seems to want to 406 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:24,360 rush people into marriage because only in the marriage bed is sex legitimate. So 407 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,159 you know, we just mentioned that verse out of First Corinthians, Right, 408 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,800 don't burn with passion, You've got to get married. And this breeds a 409 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:35,280 whole new level of dysfunction. You want to speak to that. Yeah, 410 00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:38,880 there's a couple of really important things here. First, the religious states in 411 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:45,039 the country do view internet pornography as a threat and an assault on their way 412 00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:49,440 of life. I get it. And Utah, which was the first state 413 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,719 in the country to pass legislation identifying pornography as a public health crisis, they 414 00:37:53,760 --> 00:38:00,920 explicitly identified in that legislation that pornography led to young people wanting to get married 415 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:06,800 and they can't keep this material out as they allow the internet in and in 416 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,400 the modern world beneath the Internet, and so they are seeing young people adopt 417 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,199 sexual values that they don't embrace or agree with. Now, the interesting thing 418 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,840 is, as people watch pornography, they become less religious, and they become 419 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,480 more accepting of sexual diversity. And so there really is there really is a 420 00:38:23,559 --> 00:38:30,840 fact here that you know, pornography does lead to changes in the values and 421 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:36,000 beliefs of young people watching it that are discrepant from those of religious communities. 422 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,480 But interestingly, a colleague of mine, Sam Perry, who's in Oklahoma, 423 00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:44,559 he has done fascinating research looking at all these issues. And he did this 424 00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:49,639 one study where he looked at men who watch pornography and is it the case 425 00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:54,199 that because pornography is cheap and accessible, that men are more likely to watch 426 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,880 pornography rather than want to get married and have sex. And in fact, 427 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:02,599 he found the opposite, found that men who watch pornography are actually more likely 428 00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:07,119 to express desire to get married because men who watch pornography are men who value 429 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,719 sex and libido. They want to have real sex. They're watching pornography as 430 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,559 a filler, as an alternative to the sex that they're not getting to have. 431 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,559 Is it true that the Bible Belt states, I mean you mentioned Utah. 432 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,679 I remember reading this was years ago that Utah was like in the top 433 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:30,000 three for peorn usage. It just feels like the more they try to restrict 434 00:39:30,039 --> 00:39:34,079 it, the more people find a way. Oh your experience. Yeah, 435 00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:37,679 So absolutely, this has been studied a couple of different times, a couple 436 00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:44,400 of different ways, and consistently, more religious, more sexually conservative states consume 437 00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:52,639 more pornography, both historically in magazine subscriptions and currently in internet searches for pornography. 438 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:57,000 Now, I will say there is some question, there's some conflict here 439 00:39:57,039 --> 00:40:02,960 because religious people overall want less pornography. So then why would it be the 440 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:09,639 case that religious states are drawing or watching more pornography. And what we think 441 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:15,639 is is two things. One is the less religious people in those states are 442 00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:21,719 experiencing the sexual suppression in that community and seeking pornography as outlet. And then 443 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:27,840 secondly, the highly sexual people that are in the religious community and keeping their 444 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:36,000 sexuality secret are using pornography as an outlet to pursue the sexual experiences that they 445 00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:40,519 can't get in real life because of the religious suppression. Talking here with clinical 446 00:40:40,559 --> 00:40:49,320 psychologists and certified sex therapist doctor David lay one more before the accountability software, 447 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,920 is it true that men gravitate more to pictures while women gravitate more to literature 448 00:40:55,039 --> 00:41:00,679 when it comes to getting turned on in fiction? Yes and no. In 449 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:07,679 fact, research suggests that women actually may have a stronger physiological sexual response to 450 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:17,360 visual images than men. However, women are more likely to experience psychological distress 451 00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:22,880 or lack of arousal to those same images, particularly when they a feeling of 452 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:29,760 disgust comes up. Women are more likely to read, for instance, as 453 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:36,920 I mentioned, romance novels because it feels less challenging and threatening than visual images. 454 00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:42,639 You know, when Tumblr banned pornography on that site, it had a 455 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:50,719 disproportionate impact on women who were using Tumblr to watch curated pornography. What we 456 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,760 think is going on there is that again, when a woman encounters something in 457 00:41:54,800 --> 00:42:00,199 a pornographic video that they find, you know, unarousing, you know, 458 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:05,719 a big hairy guy, somebody engages in a violent or humiliating behavior. The 459 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,840 woman is more likely to experience that as a turn off and they lose their 460 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:14,559 mojo and they don't want to keep having sex or masturbating. Men appear to 461 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,360 maintain sexual arousal through that get over that hump, so to speak, a 462 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:22,800 little more easily. This is one reason why we think that women tend to 463 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,760 be a little less likely to watch pornography than men. However, when women 464 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:30,719 watch pornography, they watch pretty much the same kinds of pornography that men do. 465 00:42:31,639 --> 00:42:39,880 Covenant Eyes is an accountability software, a surveillance program reporting to spouses. 466 00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:45,480 Maybe I don't know children, parents, friends, Sunday school teachers, pastors, 467 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:50,159 et cetera. Someone installs this on their computer to try to block out 468 00:42:50,199 --> 00:42:53,679 temptation. What's your thoughts on that? Uhhh So, over the past couple 469 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,199 of years, we've actually learned a lot about these these programs, and it's 470 00:42:58,199 --> 00:43:04,760 not good. Wired magazine has an expose about the incredible security problems in these 471 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:09,280 softwares that they open up your computer and your Internet usage to almost anybody. 472 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:19,360 They create significant vulnerabilities for hacking and for viruses. Secondly, they typically recommend 473 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,480 that you not have your spouse as your quote accountability partner, that is, 474 00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:27,960 seeing all of the pornography or all of the sites you may go to on 475 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:34,039 your computer. However, when people use their pastor, for instance, as 476 00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:38,599 their accountability partner, there's a lot of evidence that religious leaders are using this 477 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:46,639 software to enforce heteronormative and socially conservative values. So even if you don't go 478 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:51,400 to a gay porn site, but you go to a site, for instance, 479 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,960 about gay sexual health, there are lots of examples of pastors coming to 480 00:43:57,039 --> 00:44:04,239 the person and expressing concern that they are, you know, homosexual or experiencing 481 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,599 homosexual urges, and that they should stop them. Interesting that the culture encourages 482 00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:13,880 people to give over the keys to their most private spaces, like I have 483 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,760 to submit to an authority with a capital A to monitor me. It seems 484 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,079 like a violation to me. It is. Now I'm telling you another violation 485 00:44:22,199 --> 00:44:27,119 that I'm actually more concerned about, and that is that these softwares are overwhelmingly 486 00:44:27,199 --> 00:44:32,159 created and supported by moral and religious and spiritually based organizations, and yet there 487 00:44:32,199 --> 00:44:38,039 are parole and probation officers and judges across the country that are ordering sex offenders 488 00:44:38,039 --> 00:44:43,960 to have these softwarees installed on their sites. I'm concerned that this is number 489 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,239 one, you know, a violation of church and state, but number two, 490 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:52,760 these authorities have unrealistic ideas for the reliability and effectiveness of this software. 491 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:58,719 They are thinking that this software helps the public to stay safe, and there's 492 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,679 no evidence of Thatjosh Dugger is a really good example. Josh Shugger actually had 493 00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:09,119 Covenant Eyes installed on his computer. Josh Juger from that reality team Kids and 494 00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:13,880 Counting, Yeah, Yeah, and he was convicted of child sexual abuse. 495 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,400 Then he had this software installed on his computer. He created a partition so 496 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,840 that he could use the other part of the computer to look at and download 497 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:27,559 child pornography, criminal child sexual abuse material. His wife was his accountability partner. 498 00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:30,840 She had no idea that he was still looking allegedly. He had no 499 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,840 idea. She had no idea he was still looking at this material, and 500 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:38,800 then the FBI tracked him down. That software did nothing but allow him to 501 00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:45,960 manipulate people into thinking that he was not engaging in criminal and immoral behavior, 502 00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:50,440 when in fact he was. It was like a shell company. Yeah. 503 00:45:50,599 --> 00:45:53,199 One final question. You've been very generous with your time here. So if 504 00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,559 we see someone who has let's say they're thinking about sex and acting out on 505 00:45:58,599 --> 00:46:02,840 impulses regarding section NonStop. If this is not sex addiction, would you say 506 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:07,519 this is another type of issue and sex is just a symptom of it. 507 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,039 Absolutely, I mean that's what I say all the time. Sex and porn 508 00:46:13,079 --> 00:46:20,159 related problems are never really about sex. They are about moral conflict and shame 509 00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:25,679 about your sexual desires. They're about unregulated anxiety and people using masturbation and sexual 510 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:30,519 fantasy as a way to manage anxiety. They're about depression, They're about desired 511 00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:37,239 discrepancy within the relationship. The problem with the sex addiction or porn addiction label 512 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:42,119 again is that it leads us to say the answer here is to stop having 513 00:46:42,199 --> 00:46:45,800 or wanting sex. But that's not going to fix the problem that the sexual 514 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:51,400 behaviors or desires are actually being used to try to manage or regularly. We 515 00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:59,000 need to help people with the real problems rather than blaming sex. You have 516 00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,119 written a book called well, the Myth of Sex Addiction. I'd be curious 517 00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:06,400 to read that, sucker. You were recommended to me by a buddy, 518 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,960 doctor Daryl Ray, who is the author of Sex and God and host the 519 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:15,320 Secular Sexuality podcast. But this has been an interesting conversation Doctor David jay Ley 520 00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:20,119 l e y you you've been terrific. Thanks for talking to us today. 521 00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:22,599 I appreciate you. Thanks for having me Seth. I appreciate what you're doing. 522 00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:32,400 This is important. I hope you found the show today interesting, compelling, 523 00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:37,519 educational, whatever. Leave your comments in the comments section and I will 524 00:47:37,519 --> 00:47:43,719 see you back here next week. Follow The Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter 525 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,440 for a complete archive of podcasts and videos, products like mugs and t shirts 526 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,800 featuring the Thinking Atheist logo, links to atheist pages and resources, and details 527 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:59,360 on upcoming free thought events and conventions. Log onto our website, The Thinkingatheist 528 00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:01,559 dot com.