WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.960 --> 00:00:04.280 Hi, this is Sarah Morgan, one of the voices you've heard on Still. 2 00:00:04.839 --> 00:00:08.080 We hope this story moves you, but more than anything, we pray 3 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:12.400 someone will come forward to help solve these tragic cases. Spread the word by 4 00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:16.920 posting about Patricia Otto and the Finlay Creek Jane Doe on social media. You 5 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:20.879 can find links to their advocacy pages in our show notes. It's not too 6 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:24.440 late to help these women. The truth is out there. And please take 7 00:00:24.440 --> 00:00:27.719 a moment to rate and review us on your favorite podcast app, which helps 8 00:00:27.760 --> 00:00:31.879 more people learn about these cases. If you'd like to leave us direct feedback, 9 00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:35.479 contact us on Twitter, find us on Facebook, or send an email 10 00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:40.159 to Info at the Reporter's Notebook dot com. And please, if you know 11 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:45.520 something, come forward now. Get ready for the next episode of Still. 12 00:00:48.000 --> 00:01:07.000 This podcast contains intense subject matter. Listener discretion is advised. My dad, 13 00:01:07.040 --> 00:01:11.319 while he was in prison, tried to keep really busy, so he used 14 00:01:11.359 --> 00:01:14.840 his hands to make things. He made a grandfather clock, and he made 15 00:01:14.920 --> 00:01:21.840 these very impressive dollhouses. So he originally sent the first dollhouse, and we 16 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:26.519 were so impressed with this house. It's huge, it's this tall and this 17 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:30.480 wide, and I can stand on it right now. It's so strong, 18 00:01:30.640 --> 00:01:34.040 it's heavy, it's amazing. And all these little people, a whole little 19 00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:38.319 family, and we thought this was the coolest house to ever. And then 20 00:01:38.359 --> 00:01:42.480 he told us, I'm building an even better house than this house. You 21 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:47.359 girls are going to be so amazed. In between them made me a leather 22 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:51.959 vest with my name Dallas on it, a purse with my name, Dallas, 23 00:01:52.159 --> 00:01:57.519 leather purse, all these little nice things. And then the dollhouse came 24 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:02.840 in. This massive dollhouse has electricity in it, the lights light up. 25 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:09.439 It's everything's handmade, all these wooden pieces of it's impressive. You still have 26 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:15.919 it, of course I have it. Suzanne Tims, who of course used 27 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:20.439 to be Dallas Auto, took us to the garage to see the dollhouse. 28 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:25.840 The massive structure would dwarf any of Barbie and Kin's mansions. It has two 29 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:30.879 full stories with dormers on the wood shingled roof and an attic that opens up 30 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:36.639 to reveal more rooms On the third level. A bay window and covered porch 31 00:02:36.879 --> 00:02:42.400 welcomed tiny visitors, and the windows are adorned with shutters and curtains. Like 32 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:45.319 all of the stuff. He made it all by hand. Every piece of 33 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:54.879 furniture is tacked and made would furniture by hand. All the little drawers in 34 00:02:55.000 --> 00:03:00.960 prisons, and all the little drawers open. Oh my god, it's right 35 00:03:00.960 --> 00:03:05.039 there. So it's three full stories. Just this is a clear piano. 36 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:17.360 Wow, it is let's see. Let see one. It's crazy. It's 37 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:32.000 playing that same song. This see is different. The tiny player piano was 38 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:37.240 a perfect replica of the one Suzanne remembers near the front door of the house 39 00:03:37.319 --> 00:03:45.560 on twenty ninth Street. I've heard songs that have played off that piano before 40 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:51.879 where you're like, I'm right back in the house. So I try to 41 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:57.439 analyze everything. But we loved our dollhouses, and we spent so many hours 42 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:02.520 playing perfect family in the dollhouse. And at no point did anybody die in 43 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:31.160 my dollhouse. From the pages of the Reporter's notebook, this is still season 44 00:04:31.240 --> 00:05:11.360 two. I'm your host, Gary Anderson. At the end of the last 45 00:05:11.399 --> 00:05:16.319 episode, retired Union County, Oregon District Attorney Dale Mammon asked us what happened 46 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:21.120 to Pattiotto's husband, Ralph. This is as good a time as any to 47 00:05:21.160 --> 00:05:26.600 fill you in on that. In our minds, it helps explain why in 48 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:40.079 the Lewiston Police Department is hesitant to talk with us on the record. In 49 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:46.279 nineteen eighty one, Ralph's attorney successfully petitioned the Idaho Supreme Court to review his 50 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:51.879 murder for higher conviction. His lawyer had been arguing that Ralph's dependence on alcohol 51 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:57.639 made him incapable of fully understanding what he was doing when he paid the undercover 52 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:03.600 cop to kill Lewiston police Captain Dailor. His attorney said it was entrapment for 53 00:06:03.639 --> 00:06:09.120 the officer to meet with Ralph to discuss an assassination, and then to accept 54 00:06:09.160 --> 00:06:14.839 payment for the hit. But as far as the court was concerned, the 55 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:18.439 issue wasn't whether Ralph was culpable for the crime, it was the statute under 56 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:24.720 which he was charged and convicted. The court ended up splitting its decision, 57 00:06:25.040 --> 00:06:29.920 voting three to two that hiring a hitman did not qualify as attempted murder. 58 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:36.040 Instead, the court wrote in its decision that Ralph was guilty of mere solicitation. 59 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:42.839 He was released from prison seven years before his sentence would have ended, 60 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:46.199 and he returned to Lewiston, still proclaiming that the cops in his town were 61 00:06:46.240 --> 00:06:53.120 crooked and had railroaded him. He started making plans to sue the police. 62 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:59.759 It's probably fair to say that most officers in Lewiston were also still angry with 63 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:04.279 Ralph for trying to have one of their own killed. I imagined that they 64 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:12.519 were particularly resentful that his conviction was overturned. All this was simmering beneath the 65 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:17.199 surface when Lewiston cops came to his door at nine pm September seventh, nineteen 66 00:07:17.240 --> 00:07:24.040 eighty three to arrest Ralph for theft. He had been charged with stealing a 67 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:29.199 chainsaw in nearby Clearwater County, and a judge there issued a bench warrant when 68 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:34.160 he failed to appear in court. Police reports say that Ralph was severely intoxicated 69 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.720 when he was picked up, and the arresting officers had to help him walk 70 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:44.319 to the police cruiser. When he was booked into jail in Lewiston at eleven 71 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:49.040 twenty pm, the report indicates Ralph was so intoxicated he was unable to sign 72 00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:58.040 the inventory acknowledgement for his belongings. Over the next few hours, various agencies 73 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.959 took custody of Ralph. He was first handed over to nez Perce County's Sheriff's 74 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:07.800 deputies, who then passed him on to Clearwater County deputies. The paperwork processing 75 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:13.680 and custody transfers took time, and it was almost four am before he made 76 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:18.480 it inside the jail in Orofino. Ralph's family believes that the amount of time 77 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.480 it took for him to be booked into the Lewis In jail indicates that police 78 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:28.279 there used the opportunity to try to coerce a confession from him about killing his 79 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:35.000 wife. In the shower room at the Orofino Jail, Clearwater County staff saw 80 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:41.919 grotesque injuries on his right ankle and foot. The skin had almost completely separated 81 00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:48.759 and was falling off. The jailers called for help, but Ralph lost consciousness 82 00:08:48.759 --> 00:08:56.879 before paramedics arrived. He stopped breathing. Officers in. Paramedics tried to resuscitate 83 00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:03.039 him and rushed him to a nearby hospital. Medical personnel at the hospital worked 84 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:09.799 for nearly two hours trying to revive them. Ralph was pronounced dead at seven 85 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:22.440 fifty four am, September eight, nineteen eighty three. Yeah, so we 86 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:24.720 were told that he had a heart attack and that he died in the shower, 87 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:30.759 but he's forty two. So, like I said, when we got 88 00:09:30.759 --> 00:09:33.480 old enough, Natalie wanted to know what happened, so she requested the autopsy, 89 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:39.399 and we got the photos. I have them, I can show them 90 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:45.080 to you. It's not a heart attack. There's something not normal. And 91 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:50.519 it's very obvious by the photos that there's something not normal. You don't deglove 92 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:54.919 your foot, which means all the skin removes and it turns inside out from 93 00:09:54.919 --> 00:10:00.000 a heart attack, and you don't have patches of skin missing from a heart 94 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:05.159 heart attack. I do wonder, though, if the degloving of sport because 95 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:13.600 he was binding it doing something too. I think he twisted his ankle and 96 00:10:13.679 --> 00:10:16.240 he called and said I cast at it and got it stuck in something. 97 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.480 He hurt his ankle that night. It's so obvious that he hurt it that 98 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.799 night. He tries to cast it. He calls his brother, I hurt 99 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.600 my foot. Ray says, go to the doctor tomorrow, do something. 100 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:33.240 But he's so stubborn and he's so smart. He's going to make his own 101 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:35.200 cast and make his own brace. And he got his foot stuck in some 102 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.279 kind of plaster, And that could explain that one, because he was binding 103 00:10:39.279 --> 00:10:41.519 it, so it wouldn't hurt, and he was cutting off the circulation, 104 00:10:41.559 --> 00:10:46.639 so it wouldn't hurt. That could definitely explain the degloving, but it doesn't 105 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:52.720 explain all the other marks on his body. The medical examiner concluded that Ralph 106 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.799 did die of a heart attack and that alcoholic liver disease was a contributing factor. 107 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:03.039 There was no ready explanation for the skin lost on his right foot and 108 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:09.440 ankle. In their notes of the incident, Sheriff's deputies wondered if Ralph's wounds 109 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:15.360 could have been caused by a chemical burn or steam. As you heard from 110 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:18.639 Suzanne, Ralph had been binding his foot and ankle because of the pain he 111 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:24.519 was having. What was causing the pain. We know that he complained to 112 00:11:24.559 --> 00:11:28.600 his brother about hurting his ankle back on September fifth, nineteen seventy six, 113 00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:33.720 but we're not sure if it was the same ankle that had the severe wound 114 00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:39.840 when he died. Dodie also wrote in her manuscript that in nineteen seventy seven, 115 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.039 Ralph tried to make a cast for his foot and ankle. He soon 116 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:46.879 realized the cast was too tight, so he tried to soak it to soften 117 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:52.039 it. The cast swelled, increasing the pressure and tightness on his foot. 118 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:58.399 He then called Ray for help, but Ray wasn't available that day. We're 119 00:11:58.440 --> 00:12:03.440 not sure how that issue was eventually resolved, or again, if the injury 120 00:12:03.480 --> 00:12:09.559 he was treating was related to the ankle he injured the previous year. Clearwater 121 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:13.639 officials said Ray told them that Ralph would often bind his foot tight enough to 122 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:18.559 stop the circulation because of the severe pain he was having. We're not doctors, 123 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.840 but it does sound like Ralph's heart disease, severe foot pain, and 124 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:30.279 self treatment could all be connected. Our amateur research into heart conditions did provide 125 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:35.200 a plausible explanation. Most of the injuries on his body appeared to be arterial 126 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:41.559 ulcers, which are incredibly painful sores with a punched out appearance. They're caused 127 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:46.840 by heart disease and poor circulation, and they're prone to appear on the lower 128 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:52.600 extremities. If untreated, they can lead to death of the affected body tissue, 129 00:12:52.960 --> 00:12:58.240 also known as gangrene. If you're interested in seeing what we found, 130 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:03.960 google arterial ulser. If any doctors are listening, feel free to correct us 131 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:09.559 or offer a counterpoint. We would definitely be interested in hearing an expert's opinion. 132 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.399 We also want to remind you that Ralph's father died of a heart attack 133 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:20.039 when he was only thirty nine, so it doesn't seem out of the realm 134 00:13:20.080 --> 00:13:31.279 of possibility that Ralph could meet the same fate at a young age. Now, 135 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.120 I don't want to give the impression that we're taking Ralph's death lightly. 136 00:13:35.279 --> 00:13:39.120 No matter what our opinions are about his guilt or innocence, he still had 137 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:45.000 rights, and family members earnestly believed that Ralph had been the victim of police 138 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:56.200 brutality. Worst of all, Natalie and Suzanne had lost another parent. It 139 00:13:56.320 --> 00:14:03.679 was devastating for them. Suzanne's older sister, Natalie, spent years trying to 140 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:11.120 discover what happened to both her parents. She gathered binders full of police and 141 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:16.600 newspaper reports related to her mother's disappearance and her father's death so we could look 142 00:14:16.600 --> 00:14:22.720 and see what happened. Why does one family think one thing and family think 143 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:24.320 another thing? And you read through it, and the more that I read 144 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:31.240 through it, the more that I probably ten pages in was telling my sister 145 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.399 my father's guilty. There's nobody else than him who knows what happened. To 146 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:41.080 her mother and I know what I saw was real, This is real. 147 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:48.519 My sister didn't want to believe that. She wanted to believe that that our 148 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:54.039 dad was this loving, wonderful person who had never hurt her or us. 149 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:58.440 So she tried to prove by going through this that they missed things, that 150 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:01.200 they over things, that there was leads that they could have looked into. 151 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:07.320 That you know that our mom left and she was in the process of years 152 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.000 she had actually reached out Tidaho State Patrol and was trying to sue the State 153 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:16.159 of Idaho saying this is so wrongly done and there's so much injustice in this 154 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:22.000 case. She spent years, years, years on the case. Now, 155 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:26.879 I wanted to prove that the police had tortured him to get answers about where 156 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.679 my mother was located at. And obviously the police deny any involvement. And 157 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.039 they say that he was drunk when they picked him up and he fell. 158 00:15:35.960 --> 00:15:39.360 He drunk. He was drunk and he fell and he hurt himself. But 159 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:45.399 his blood alcohol is point one on the autopsy. I believe that is not 160 00:15:45.879 --> 00:16:15.960 intoxicated. By now, you've probably wondered why you haven't heard from Natalie Suzanne's 161 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:33.840 older sister. In two thousand and six, another tragedy struck Natalie. Her 162 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:37.120 husband, son, and a friend of her sons were all overcome by carbon 163 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:45.120 monoxide during a Memorial Day weekend boat outing. When the boat was found, 164 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:48.559 it appeared the group had taken shelter from the cool weather under a storage tarp 165 00:16:48.799 --> 00:16:57.759 snapped onto the boat's exterior. The boat's engine and a propane heater produced carbon 166 00:16:57.799 --> 00:17:08.440 monoxide fumes which couldn't dissipate under the boat cover. Susanne had lost another lifeline. 167 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.440 And there was a time when at our house we got our own bedrooms 168 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.599 for the first time in all those years, and I think we were seventeen 169 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:22.279 or eighteen, and I used to sneak back into her room. I literally 170 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:30.160 could not sleep without her. And I'm like, I'm the most pathetic seventeen 171 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.240 year old ever. I have to have my sister. But we would just 172 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:37.119 sit and talk, just like we had always done. Then she would comfort 173 00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:45.920 me and encourage me. She was a mother and a father and a best 174 00:17:45.920 --> 00:18:00.799 friend all in one. The clearest course forward to Susanne was to pick up 175 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:03.759 the torch Natalie had been caring and try to find justice. For her mom 176 00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:11.680 and hopefully finally bring her home, which brings us to the summer of twenty 177 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:17.240 twenty one, when she scrolled through Facebook and saw a drawing of a woman 178 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:22.200 who looked eerily familiar. So I reach out to Redgrave Research, who did 179 00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.279 the three D friend a drawing, and I send them a picture of my 180 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:30.240 mother and me side by side, and I said, how did you draw 181 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:33.599 this photo? It looks like you drew my mother and I had a baby 182 00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:38.039 together because it's her and I together. And I thought, I'm going to 183 00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:42.200 wait for months to hear back from this guy, because he's back east somewhere. 184 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:45.519 I'm going to wait for months. Within hours, Anthony got back to 185 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:52.519 me, and I thought that was a good sign that Anthony got back to 186 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.200 me so quickly. And I reach out to the Cold Keith team, who's 187 00:18:56.240 --> 00:19:00.240 on this Facebook page, who actually is the one that created the page to 188 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:04.720 get this going? And I realized since twenty eighteen, they have been trying 189 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:22.519 to give this Jane Doe a name. The Thinly Creek team is headed by 190 00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:30.240 volunteer investigators Jason Fudge and Melinda Jetterburgh. You heard Melinda's voice at the Jane 191 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:37.519 Doe site in the last episode. So I'm messaging mel, Hey, melt 192 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:42.640 you found a body. I'm missing a body. Let's talk right. This 193 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:48.400 is my mom. She's five foot, three hundred and thirty pounds, Caucasian 194 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:52.839 female with blonde hair. Last seeing wear red pants in a white shirt, 195 00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:56.039 and you have a body matching that. And they told us in nineteen seventy 196 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:00.200 eight it wasn't my mom. I literally have a paper right here that says 197 00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:04.799 it's not her. What Daniel records did they use? How do they compare 198 00:20:04.839 --> 00:20:10.279 her? How do I know it's not her? As we said in the 199 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:15.599 last episode. In nineteen ninety, the Finlay Creek Jandoe case was labeled as 200 00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:22.599 unsolvable and was closed. The Jando's remains were cremated and all the associated evidence 201 00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:26.880 was destroyed. The cremains were then lost, wiping out hopes of finding a 202 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:33.960 DNA match. Melinda, who many call mel, spent months in the early 203 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:37.000 part of the pandemic chasing down leads to try to find out what happened to 204 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:44.599 those cremains. She ran into dead end after dead end. The funeral home 205 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.039 where the Jando had been sent had changed ownership and the previous owner had passed 206 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:56.279 away. The new owner couldn't find any records of the remains. Then Mel 207 00:20:56.359 --> 00:21:03.079 had a conversation with an Idaho detective about an unrelated When she mentioned her frustration 208 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:07.920 with this case, the detective suggested she checked with the coroner's office in Walla 209 00:21:07.000 --> 00:21:12.319 Walla, Washington, which in nineteen ninety was the closest community with a crematorium. 210 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:17.039 I never thought to do that because I just assumed she was at the 211 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:22.279 funeral home. And then there was another conversation. He said, yeah, 212 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.480 get hold of the docent at the Walla Walla corner's office because they keep really 213 00:21:26.480 --> 00:21:29.880 good records. I was like, oh, okay, I guess I can 214 00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:33.000 do that. And then I had also talked to the City of Walla Walla, 215 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:36.920 a representative of the City of Walla Walla, and he had said the 216 00:21:36.960 --> 00:21:40.720 same thing. They're like, get old of the coroner's office. So I 217 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:45.119 get a hold of Richard Greenwood. I emailed him, and I had to 218 00:21:45.160 --> 00:21:48.359 email him a couple of times because again, you know, we had this 219 00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.319 whole pandemic thing going on. And then he said so that's when he said, 220 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:57.039 so I found this bag of remains. They look kind of old, 221 00:21:57.720 --> 00:22:02.680 and they have half a sticker on the from the funeral home that she was 222 00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:08.599 sent to, and I just went The cremains the corner found were labeled as 223 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:12.599 a John Doe, not a Jane Doe, and the location noted on the 224 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:18.559 file of where the unidentified remains were first found didn't match. But the case 225 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:22.640 number written on the side of a piece of paper did match the finlay crete 226 00:22:22.720 --> 00:22:26.920 Jane Doe, so did the name of the investigator assigned to the case. 227 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:34.920 Feeling hopeful, Mel contacted the Oregon State forensic anthropologist, who then coordinated with 228 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:41.200 Washington State to see what could be done with the remains. The first task 229 00:22:41.359 --> 00:22:45.519 for forensic DNA analysts is to see if any genetic material can be extracted from 230 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:52.839 the remains. Despite advancements in testing, it's difficult to extract DNA from cremated 231 00:22:52.880 --> 00:23:00.240 bones because extreme heat destroys the organic material. The remains were sent to a 232 00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:03.759 Canadian lab in late August of twenty twenty one in an attempt to get answers. 233 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:11.400 Kathy Taylor, a forensic anthropologist in Washington State, was invaluable in facilitating 234 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:18.960 the transfer of the remains. The team was crushed to learn in August that 235 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:30.079 she passed away before the results were available. We were at Suzanne's house when 236 00:23:30.079 --> 00:23:38.319 the news was delivered about her death, so Richard Greenwood and the coroner and 237 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:45.119 I have been communicating with doctor Taylor, who is an outstanding anthropologist similar to 238 00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:51.400 doctor Vance in the state of Oregon, and I knew she hadn't been feeling 239 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.759 well. So I'm absolutely shocked too. I have. She's a young I 240 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:59.799 mean a young lady. She's totally dedicated to the state of Washington and defining 241 00:24:00.240 --> 00:24:03.079 unidentified and like she is the bone expert. She carries her phone with her 242 00:24:03.079 --> 00:24:07.519 when she's on vacation and they will text her all the time with random bones 243 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:12.240 and she's incredible, it says doctor Kathy Taylor says. She passed away on 244 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:18.799 August first, and it says her work also served as a critical link in 245 00:24:18.880 --> 00:24:26.200 solving criminal investigations, including the Green River Killer murders. She's phenomenal. She 246 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:45.359 identified the youngest Green River Killer victim and she was super responsive. Another blow 247 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.640 came in December when the lab said there was no usable DNA in the cremains, 248 00:24:52.599 --> 00:25:00.920 but the team is undeterred. They know that Suzanne's best shot of getting 249 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:06.599 DNA for comparison with the Jane Doe to herself is in finding undiscovered bone left 250 00:25:06.599 --> 00:25:11.359 behind on the hillside where investigators combed for remains in nineteen seventy eight. So 251 00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:22.160 but yeah, this is this is the area right in here. So yeah, 252 00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:26.039 and I mean, you know, you look at that tree right there. 253 00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:32.400 It's it's probably only thirty years old, if even that. So, 254 00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:36.400 yeah, there's a lot of growth in here because this was a lot more 255 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:40.559 open. There was a lot more well you can imagine because it hasn't been 256 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:41.839 touched in forty years. I haven't been in here and logged. It doesn't 257 00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:48.599 look like so there is a lot more ground cover at the time, or 258 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:53.279 was it a lot more? There was a lot more scrub a lot more 259 00:25:53.279 --> 00:26:00.039 scrub brush um, and more of these grasses and ferns. I think I 260 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:07.000 remember ferns. Rob Parr's memory was accurate. It matched the crime scene photos 261 00:26:07.039 --> 00:26:11.359 Mail received when she got copies of the Jane Doe case file. It's like 262 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:15.200 he was looking at pictures that I had already seen. So it was, 263 00:26:15.640 --> 00:26:22.720 but he's not describing pictures that he seemed no describing ye memory of he said, 264 00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:26.039 because I had always assumed that they were taking the pictures as they were 265 00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.960 excavating, and Rob's like, no, I saw the skull, I saw 266 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:34.079 the ribs, it was all out. And he talked about the job and 267 00:26:36.319 --> 00:26:40.240 the shoes. She's like, I saw all of that, and I was 268 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:44.559 like, that's exactly what the pictures look like that I have. So I 269 00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:48.240 don't ever see the pictures. Yeah, because I've never published them anywhere. 270 00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:53.240 Those those don't go anywhere. Retired Da daale o'mammon remembered a similar scene. 271 00:26:55.599 --> 00:27:00.640 And we parked in a parking spot beside it a rural, very rural road, 272 00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:06.279 and it was pointed out down a small embankment up on the other side, 273 00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:14.160 and then beside a log was this body in a very very shallow grave, 274 00:27:15.039 --> 00:27:18.440 or the remains of the body, I should say, in a shallow 275 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:23.759 grave. And that's all we found at that point. And then it was 276 00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:29.400 sort of a quasi open area, not all a grown and we had no 277 00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:36.640 difficulty in looking down the creek and a northerly director or a southerly direction maybe 278 00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:42.039 fifteen or twenty feet, and there was a down tree who had been there 279 00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:48.880 a long time, and it was right beside the tree in a quasi open 280 00:27:48.960 --> 00:27:52.240 area five or ten fifteen feet wide. That's where the body was found. 281 00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:57.480 Pre DNA testing, investigators had little to go on to try to identify the 282 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:06.880 woman. One there was no reported missing persons in northeast Origan, and that's 283 00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:11.160 the four or five county area here, and certainly it would have in the 284 00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:17.799 law enforcement community been common knowledge had there been somebody missing. It was, 285 00:28:17.839 --> 00:28:23.559 as I recall, about the time that the homicides were occurring in the Green 286 00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:33.240 River area around Seattle, and our conversation speculation was, well, there's there's 287 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:40.319 another one that they that happened to from that area and got this far and 288 00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:45.839 decided to dispose of the body or whatever they were doing. But they were 289 00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:53.839 never really I think the law enforcement didn't make inquiry, and no missing persons 290 00:28:53.880 --> 00:29:23.960 were reported even in that area at that time. Soon we're going to talk 291 00:29:23.960 --> 00:29:29.839 about who the woman could be if it's not Patty Otto, but for now, 292 00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:34.599 let's focus on what's been happening at the grave side. So this is 293 00:29:34.960 --> 00:29:40.960 what we have narrowed down. When we were up there, we had come 294 00:29:40.960 --> 00:29:45.680 out for about fifteen minutes because she had odor and was not able to figure 295 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:49.880 out where it was coming from, and so when I took her out so 296 00:29:51.000 --> 00:29:53.599 she was quit being frustrated, and then put her back in and we put 297 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:57.000 her back into a different area, so hoping it would be like a fresh 298 00:29:57.039 --> 00:30:03.079 take. So it worked in that a lot of the odor that she'd been 299 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.039 confused with before it was no longer she wasn't catching it, so so that 300 00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:11.839 is a rule out. There was no longer you know something here. It 301 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:15.799 was like I don't have anything. So we worked back down. So this 302 00:30:15.880 --> 00:30:21.839 is good and bad. We worked back down. She still has serious interest 303 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:27.440 below where it's believed the body is found. It is super thick, so 304 00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:30.839 she goes back to it. So she's not a larning she's not like it's 305 00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:36.559 right here. She works in. There's like that big, big down tree 306 00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:40.240 and we've marked it, so I have the way points and stuff. We've 307 00:30:40.279 --> 00:30:41.839 marked it, and we moved it so she could get into it. And 308 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.799 she snuffs and snuffs, and then she's like, I don't know, and 309 00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.279 so she'll work her way down the tree a little bit and she comes back 310 00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:52.400 and she goes the other side of the tree and walked back, and then 311 00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:55.799 we take her out past to see if the odor could be coming in from 312 00:30:55.799 --> 00:31:00.000 somewhere else, and so that's where we're at, is that she definite, 313 00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.599 finitely has odor, and thankfully the second time and we were able to rule 314 00:31:03.640 --> 00:31:06.160 out because you know, saw how far out she kept working. I was 315 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:11.279 like, oh, my goodness, a lot of area right, and there 316 00:31:11.359 --> 00:31:18.839 could be It would be unusual, though to have it that far up and 317 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:23.119 that far down. And what I saw because we went back in, it 318 00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.680 had clouded over, so the sun was no longer shining in there, and 319 00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:30.039 I think that's what happened. I think it quit pulling the odor up because 320 00:31:30.119 --> 00:31:34.759 sun directly on an odor pulls it very quickly. So um, so it's 321 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:37.880 hard a lot of times. That's why we talk about daytime and stuff, 322 00:31:37.880 --> 00:31:40.759 because if we have a lot of sun in an area, our odor can 323 00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:44.160 just go straight up and the dog doesn't get it very well at all. 324 00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:48.480 So it's good that, I mean, the area allows the odor to be 325 00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:53.359 held, so that's good, but it's so thick that it means we have 326 00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:59.920 to keep holling in amity. Larson and her dog Brin went back to the 327 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:04.519 site three months later, in November twenty twenty one, with another handler, 328 00:32:04.680 --> 00:32:09.680 Gail Collins and her search dog wyat, and that day it was a little 329 00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:14.440 bit sunny. We had a nice breeze. It was about fifty degrees, 330 00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:19.759 you know, a little more moisture, So it was much better search conditions 331 00:32:19.880 --> 00:32:24.440 than when I had been there in August. Her dog showed indications of having 332 00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:32.839 odor in the same regions that Bryn had in August. And interestingly, her 333 00:32:32.920 --> 00:32:38.160 dog went to where the burial site, where we believed the burial site was, 334 00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:43.160 and actually had put his foot on he put his nose on it, 335 00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:45.039 he put his paw on it, and he would kind of do like a 336 00:32:45.160 --> 00:32:50.319 scuff with his paw, and he was very interested in that area. Kept 337 00:32:50.359 --> 00:32:55.680 going back to it frequently and show a lot of interest there. The thing 338 00:32:55.720 --> 00:33:01.400 about that dog, I've trained with him extensively, and he's a dog that 339 00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:07.119 whenever he's dealt with buried source, likes to touch the spot. So he's 340 00:33:07.160 --> 00:33:13.759 not a digger in general, but he always has when we've had buried material 341 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:17.039 and that he's been searching for, he frequently will show that same behavior where 342 00:33:17.079 --> 00:33:22.039 he puts his foot down and he scuts the ground almost like he's trying to 343 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:29.359 help himself smell better. And the other thing about him he's a dog that 344 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:35.200 likes to be one accurate, so we didn't get a trained final response from 345 00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:39.920 him on that location either. A trained final response is when a dog gives 346 00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.359 a signal that it absolutely has found what it's trained to find, whether that's 347 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:51.200 an injured hiker or human remains. These dogs don't alert to other animal remains. 348 00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:55.720 They know what they're looking for. After sniffing the area we believe was 349 00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:00.640 the grave side, the dog moved further along the trail and up the hill 350 00:34:00.680 --> 00:34:05.839 a bit and got extremely interested in a cluster of trees. But we had 351 00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:09.719 to actually remove him physically remove him from the area because he wouldn't stop working 352 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:15.320 to locate the source of the smell. The odor as he was working, 353 00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:21.920 but he was actually standing up on the trees against them, sniffing up into 354 00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.079 the air, and then he would work down to the bottom of the trees. 355 00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:30.320 We would pull him out of that immediate area and let him go, 356 00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:35.000 and he would come right back in and start working it again. So we 357 00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:40.239 were very interested in that area because of his behavior, but they couldn't be 358 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:45.360 certain that whyatt had found the source of an odor because heat and wind can 359 00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:50.039 play tricks on a dog's nose trapping odor in an area that's several feet or 360 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.559 even yards away from the source. A dog could get into an area and 361 00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:59.639 have an odor, but not actually have remained right there. There's somewhere in 362 00:34:59.639 --> 00:35:01.800 the scinity, or there's you know, there's a reason in the vicinity that 363 00:35:01.840 --> 00:35:06.719 it's causing the oder to be there. But it doesn't mean the dog's wrong. 364 00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:10.440 It just means that that's where it's most concentrated. The odor is most 365 00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:15.239 concentrated. Amity and Gail used an app to get the GPS coordinates of the 366 00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:22.440 spot where Wyatt was signaling, but the GPS malfunctioned. Fortunately, they also 367 00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:25.039 took pictures of the area because they wanted to bring in Bryn to see how 368 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:32.480 she would react. This time, she had more interest closer to the grave 369 00:35:32.559 --> 00:35:38.639 site than what she did before. Before she worked much further out from it 370 00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:44.320 and had This time she was much closer to the grave site in her interest. 371 00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:47.440 She still did not give a trained final response in the grave site area. 372 00:35:47.440 --> 00:35:53.599 In that immediate area we lost. Well, this is when when we 373 00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:59.559 were working, that's when we discovered that we had the wrong GPS because we 374 00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:02.360 had GPS asked the spot where why it had been so interested in the trees, 375 00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:08.679 and there was just it was something wrong with the GPS, so we 376 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:14.000 didn't actually know where it was. So we just went ahead and worked the 377 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:21.199 area. And the really interesting part for us as handlers was that we were 378 00:36:21.320 --> 00:36:23.679 keeping an eye out, trying to kind of work our way back. We 379 00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:27.280 really had no idea where we had been because we were just following the dogs, 380 00:36:27.360 --> 00:36:31.760 letting them work. And as we were getting back into an area, 381 00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:37.360 I stopped and I had my phone up because from the picture I'd taken, 382 00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:43.480 and Brin went in and started working in some trees and I pulled up the 383 00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:47.880 photograph and Gale was looking up the photograph with me, and I said I 384 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:52.599 think this is it, and Gale said, yes, I think that's right, 385 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:54.719 and we looked up and my dog was giving a trained final response. 386 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:22.199 Next time on still, somebody had spotted the cards the Tapidera motor in and 387 00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:27.000 so I called the Tapidera just to be I try to be discreet, just 388 00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:30.320 because of the long drive, right, And we're like as she still registered 389 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:31.880 death and the manager said, yeah, she just paid for another night. 390 00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:46.960 Anyone with information pertaining to the disappearance of Patricia Otto should contact the Lewiston Police 391 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:53.440 Department's tipline at two zero eight to nine eight three nine three nine. Anyone 392 00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:59.559 with information pertaining to the identity of the Finland Creek Jane Doe or other information 393 00:37:59.679 --> 00:38:05.199 related to that case should contact the Union County District Attorney at DA at Union 394 00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:10.039 hyphen County dot org. If you, or anyone you know is a victim 395 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:15.719 of domestic abuse, please contact the National Domestic Violence Hotline at eight hundred seven 396 00:38:15.880 --> 00:38:23.840 nine nine. Safe STILL is a production of The Reporter's Notebook and Grayson Shaw 397 00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:31.320 Media. You can connect with us online at the Reporter's Notebook dot com or 398 00:38:31.599 --> 00:38:40.079 via email at info at the Reporter's Notebook dot com. Still was researched, 399 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:47.679 written and produced by Karen Shaw Anderson. Additional research in script editing provided by 400 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:58.519 Christine Hughes. Original music by Smith Uoso. I'm your host and associate producer 401 00:38:58.679 --> 00:39:05.599 Gary Anderson. Special thanks to everyone who graciously provided interviews and help with our 402 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:09.960 research. We would specifically like to thank the advocates for Patricia Otto and the 403 00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:17.599 Findlay Creek Jindoe Task Force. Like Follow and subscribe to STILL on your favorite 404 00:39:17.639 --> 00:39:23.199 podcast platform, and follow us on Facebook. Or Twitter to join the conversation. 405 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:30.920 Ezekiel thirty four sixteen. I will seek the lost, and I will 406 00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:35.639 bring back the stray, and I will bind up the injured, and I 407 00:39:35.679 --> 00:39:36.880 will strengthen the weak